LGF

The Murder of Theo Van Gogh

Wed, Nov 3, 2004 at 12:50:15 pm PST

Eight radical Islamists have been arrested in the investigation into the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh.

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Dutch police have arrested eight suspected Islamic radicals as part of the investigation into the brutal slaying of outspoken filmmaker Theo van Gogh, prosecutors said Wednesday.

The suspects were detained in the 24 hours following Van Gogh’s killing while he bicycled on an Amsterdam street, prosecution spokeswoman Dop Kruimel told The Associated Press.

Six detainees are of Moroccan origin, one is Algerian and the other has dual Spanish-Moroccan nationality, she said.

The suspect in the killing — a 26-year-old suspected Muslim extremist with dual Moroccan-Dutch citizenship — was arrested Tuesday after a shootout with police. The unidentified suspect was wounded in the leg.

Kruimel said the suspects, whose identities were not released, were detained and released during an October 2003 investigation into a potential terrorist threat.

The Dutch are becoming aware of the growing danger they have allowed to take root in their country: Suspected Islamist killing tests Dutch tolerance.

Theo van Gogh, who angered Muslims with a film that said Islam encouraged violence against women, was shot dead on Tuesday. A man with Dutch and Moroccan nationality was arrested for the killing, and suspected of Islamic extremist motives.

Commentators said the murder showed attempts to integrate immigrants had failed and threatened to make race relations worse in a country where 10 percent of the population is defined as “non-Western” foreigners — many Muslim Moroccans and Turks.

“This event shows what kind of climate we have allowed to develop. What kind of people we have allowed in and just allowed to go their own way. How we have much too long just let things go to seed,” sociologist Herman Vuijsje told the Volkskrant daily. ...

Noting that Pim Fortuyn’s murder and that of Van Gogh came 911 days apart — a reference to the U.S. abbreviation for Sept. 11 — De Telegraaf newspaper said lenient immigration policies had turned an open society into a “resentful and intolerant” one.

“Afraid of being called racist, we have been so tolerant with regard to these religious fascists that they have been allowed to merrily undermine the roots of our freedom,” it said. ...

A survey last week showed that a majority of Dutch said they expected to no longer feel at home in their own neighbourhood in five years due to the rising number of foreigners. In the three biggest cities, immigrants make up about a third of the population and form a majority among young people.

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272 comments

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1 The Other Elizabeth  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:52:19am

Ah, I love people's dawning awareness of the terror in their midst. May it blossom and grow.

And first?

The Other Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

2 Mary  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:52:49am

I like this line I just read about Mr. Van Gogh's murder in a BBC article:

A close friend and colleague of Theo van Gogh, columnist Ebru Umar, said she did not think the government would act even now: "This is the Netherlands, nothing will happen."
3 Necklace of shoes  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:53:54am

And Michael Moore walks the streets a hero (to some)

4 Buckaroo  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:53:57am

"De Telegraaf newspaper said lenient immigration policies had turned an open society into a “resentful and intolerant” one."


Acknowledgment is the first step to recovery -- now start booting out the islamists!!

5 Californican  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:55:22am

Its almost 1:00 pm here in California and this is the first time I could access LGF since yesterday before noon.

What is happening?

Hosting matters needs an upgrade or something?

6 Occasional Reader  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:56:08am

Gordon to begin calling Charles a racist in this thread in 5...4...3...2...

7 Beagle  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:56:23am

It's time to ship them back to the Arabian Peninsula. Put them in a lock box where we can contain them until the latest jihad blows over. Harsh? Yes. But not as harsh as being decapitated on the street for making a movie which some people found insulting.

8 Isobella  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:56:32am

Its a shame that something like this has to happen for them to see the error of their ways.

9 J. Lichty  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:56:53am

No one does genocide like Europeans. The [bigoted word]s will go too far and Europe will re-discover their old ways.

The Europeans may like it now because in General the Muslim hordes seem focussed on the Jews and Americans, but you can't keep these supremicists in categories when it is all infidels they hate and want to kill.

You deserve it Europe, and I just hope the remnants of Jews who are left there have the good sense to leave before they are simply an appetizer in the main dish of civilization clash in Old Europe.

10 Security Mom  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:57:23am

Californican- I'm in CA also and have had no trouble or delays in accessing LGF last night or today, both at home and at work. I'm in SF bay area and have comcast at home.

Maybe your ISP buckled under the high traffic?

11 eXcel  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:57:49am

Now that we don't have to worry about the dem's policies of surender for at least 2 years, its back to fighting the islamofacists. I feel like an enourmous weigth has been lifted.. Amen

12 Rex  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:58:43am

Where is racial profiling when you need it? After all it wasn't the Chinese or the Blacks or the Slavs that have been causing problems worldwide through Islam' hate ideology but the Arabs. Moroccans and Algerians roam the streets of western Europe and should be scrutinized in regards to their Islamic expression of "love, peace and tolerance".

13 AdvancedMammoth  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:59:41am

Europeans have always been the ones with the most to fear from the Islamists, while simultaneously being the ones least aware of the danger.

Now that American has shown its strength, the wolves will look to the more easily consumed target.

14 Capt. Queeg  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:00:22am

And now (unfortunately) back to our regulary scheduled programming. There is much hard work left to be done.

15 Californican  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:00:59am

I dont know what happened, Im just happy to be back. Since I couldnt get in here, I thought I'd see what the looneys were saying over and the Kos (shit) site. I feel like I need a shower.

16 John B  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:01:25am

Well, it looks like it's starting - the backlash that is. I'm not sure what from it will take or when it will turn nasty but this has been predicted for some time - possibly back to Enoch Powell in the 1960's I believe.

The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Italy - what is the Chinese curse - may you live in interesting times? The PC and LLL types will have their hands full I expect.

17 Axiom  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:02:07am

I heard Allah voted for Bush.

Ruh Roh Islamists!

18 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:03:11am
19 monkeyweather  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:03:34am

Geeze, I saw this story yesterday but just didn't have the heart to read it.
If we can take back our country from liberal nutcases, the Dutch can take back theirs too.
I hope they do - before it is too late and they are all living in fear.

20 scoreboard44  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:03:58am

I somehow can't picture the Dutch being overrun by Muslims.

How the hell did this happen.

21 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:04:23am
22 maggie  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:04:29am

and the Left would have America become just like the Netherlands...if we let them...Sooo glad Bush won this one!!! what about the next? got to be on guard constantly...we can thru the internet and talk radio

23 Occasional Reader  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:04:51am

#18 song and dance: So much for those Kandahar provisional ballots! Good news for a brave man. (Although I still sometimes wonder if he really isn't Ben Kingsley.)

24 Mr. D'Arcy  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:04:52am

The Dutch have scarcely begun to reap what they have sown. Time to wake up people, or is there nothing worth fighting for and saving in European culture?

25 BingoBunny  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:07:08am

I've long believed GW Bush has saved europe from a home grown civil war against Islamic immigrants, but their governments must join now to stop the causes behind this. Turn europe back to a christian people, stop using unskilled rasist islamic immigrants for your dirty jobs, and move them back home, and most important get the political guts to stop the trend to socialism which is just the left's way to bribe voters.

26 scoreboard44  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:07:09am

I hate politcal correctness. See what happens.

I hate radical muslims.

I Still Hate the French.

FOUR MORE YEARS OF BUSH!!! Take that Chirac!

27 Luigi  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:07:16am
A survey last week showed that a majority of Dutch said they expected to no longer feel at home in their own neighbourhood in five years


I would say that is pathetic, but I feel the same way when I go to the shops in my area of New Jersey, or on the streets of New York. I might add, both parties got off pandering to the 'immigration' lobby this time around. There will be a reckoning. It may take a third party, like what Perot did with the national debt.

28 sms111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:07:44am

[b]DUHHH UMMM GRUNT SNORT DUHHH[/b]

Eurofreak leftists are finally starting to get it!

“Afraid of being called racist, we have been so tolerant with regard to these religious fascists that they have been allowed to merrily undermine the roots of our freedom,” it said. ...

Ya think???

29 beniyyar  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:07:53am

The Netherlands has a long and dirty history of anti Semitism, and for the past several years, a history of vulgar and abusive anti Israel diplomacy. This is due to a natural tendency among the Dutch, but has been make worse by the presence of a large and violent Arab Islamic immigrant population which has enough political clout to determine the country's international diplomacy. Indeed, the real heart and soul of Eurabia is in the Netherlands, not France or Belgium.

30 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:08:30am

In my classification of the three steps of the INVASION (step one:silent; step two: noisy/whining and step three: violent-genocidal) The Netherlands seem now to be positioned in the third and final stage of the disease.

31 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:08:51am
32 Dan Tanna  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:09:54am

OK...can someone explain this one to me.

I saw our so called ally, Tony Blair, give the ultimatum to Bush, that it is time for political payback.

Of course, what ol Tony wants are the Jews on a platter.
So he can continue that age old euro tradition of arab-thug coddling.

Tony...I appreciate your steadfastness and support for and during the Iraq campaign, however, this does not give you the right to demand jack shit, especially when you want us to turn our back on friends, so you can get a better price per barrel.

If you want to act that way Tony...go join the frogs.

33 Miggie  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:10:18am

There's a proverb that says that "If you let the Devil into the Church, he'll mount the alter."

They opened their doors and let in a flood of devils. Now they'll get the screwing that the Devil always does once he gets inside.

Did they thing they were going to make productive members of society of them? Didn't they consider what the flood of Muslims would do to their crime rates and their already overtaxed welfate state?

OT: Glad to be able to get back on the site... I had lots of trouble signing in off and on last night.

34 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:10:52am
35 Lightning_Man  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:11:39am

"Tolerance" is not the word to describe allowing people into your midst who wish to destroy you. It is "suicide."

36 restitutor orbis  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:11:48am

I'm glad to see this story at the top of the page. It brings "closure" to the election. Now Charles can get back to the business at hand.

37 Hila  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:12:31am

I was talking to my Dutch friends today and they said that the whole country is really shocked over this incident. Some moslems were beaten, it's getting violent there.

38 mglazer  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:13:34am

It is not tolerant to tolerate intolerance

being enient with vicious murderers does not benefit anyone - this is the horrid legacy and lesson the Liberals, theworld over, have given us

39 Paul  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:14:14am

Multiculturism has become a suicide pact. An open and tolerant society like that of Holland is helpless against people who are intolerant, ruthless and believe that they have an absolute right to impose their will on everyone else.

40 jimann  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:15:31am
It's time to ship them back to the Arabian Peninsula. Put them in a lock box where we can contain them until the latest jihad blows over. Harsh?

Containing them won't work. Eliminating them is the only way to insure our peace.

41 Apathy Curve  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:15:49am

Finally! A few people are starting to see a glimmer of the light. It's not "Islamists" or "fundamentalist Islamists" or "militants" or "radicals" who are the problem here. They're only a symptom. The root cause is Islam, the religion. No, not all the followers of Islam. Probably not even the majority of them. It's not the people; it's the religion. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can start dealing with the real problem.

For the record, I'm an atheist. I hold all religions to be forms of wishful thinking, but I do not interfere with anyone's right to believe anything they wish to believe. It does me no harm to smile and, as Heinlein said, listen to the little lizard who claims to be a brontosaurus on his mother's side. I may even learn something about brontosauruses in the process. The difference is that the world's other religions have adopted a policy of tolerance towards other's beliefs and opinions--even towards atheists such as myself, no matter how much we may disagree on basic philosophies.

Islam, on the other hand, has not come into the modern world with the rest of us and adopted this free-thinking, freely tolerant system. It therefore leaves us two choices in dealing with it: destroy it as a coherent, organized force (a very, very difficult proposition at best), or try to slowly democratize and civilize the people living their lives in the grip of the religion. Civilize the people and countries, and the religion will (hopefully) follow. Mr. Bush realized this choice existed three years ago, and he's acting on a plan to accomplish the latter. We've just given him four more years to accomplish it. I sincerely hope he can do so--or at least make a good start. Otherwise, we're in for a very long 21st century, one that'll make the 20th look tranquil and brotherly by comparison.

Islam is the problem. Wake up and realize it.

42 zulubaby  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:16:06am

Dan Tanna (#32)

I saw our so called ally, Tony Blair, give the ultimatum to Bush, that it is time for political payback.

We knew that was coming. Now we'll see if Bush is the friend of Israel that we think he is.

43 mglazer  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:16:37am

This is the END game of Liberal policies played out time after time in the past several decades

live and learn

Modern American Conservatism (MAC) values life and all of its elemental principles

44 UKid  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:16:47am

Old Europe will never learn.

I heard a French Politician on the radio today expressing hope that Bush would be on friendlier terms with the French so as to utilise their 'special relationship' with the Arab World. Now I've heard it said that Britain has a 'special relationship' with USA - l think Britain has the better deal on this one.

45 godfrey  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:17:03am

How do LGFers deal with squatters? With house-guests who overstay their welcome?

46 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:17:15am
47 Bob with one O  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:17:17am

Sorry but,

I've had MSN problems all day. I can only access MSN when I've got AOL up also.

/computer challenged and using foul language

48 Luigi  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:17:19am

39 Paul

Multiculturism has become a suicide pact. An open and tolerant society like that of Holland is helpless against people who are intolerant, ruthless and believe that they have an absolute right to impose their will on everyone else


Very well put. Multiculturalism is racism against the mainline culture.

49 russell.j.coller.jr  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:17:25am

A silent wish that we did not have them under the custody of CO / Naval Base Guantanamo & release them
as mere wrong place / wrong timer aid workers.

50 sms111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:18:00am

#9 J. Lichty

No one does genocide like Europeans. The [bigoted word]s will go too far and Europe will re-discover their old ways.

That is likely going to happen. Those European killer instincts are just waitin' to cruise once more.

51 Tumulus11  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:18:13am

' Don't do it. Don't do it. Have mercy. Have mercy!" the Algemeen Dagblad newspaper quoted Van Gogh as begging his killer.


Another Dutch newspaper, the Telegraaf daily, carried a large color photograph of Van Gogh's body with a knife protruding from his chest under the headline "Butchered."


"We're not going to take this," the Dagblad said.


The paper said the killer shot Van Gogh eight or nine times, then calmly slipped his weapon in the pocket of a beige raincoat before bending over his victim and slitting his throat. '
AP


. Even by Primitive standards, this was a vicious killing.
Evil in human form.

52 Hila  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:18:14am

#42

I didn't see it, what did he say?

53 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:18:41am
54 Flores  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:19:09am

Hey, we all know it's a worldwide war...the Spanish Minister of the Interior wants to hold a conference to discuss the links between Islamic terrorists there and the ETA. Everybody everybody.

What's likely, of course, is that Zapatero will sit on this...

But on their end, hopefully the Dutch will finally show a little Teutonic spirit.

55 doscentavo  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:19:29am

To #5...

I'm from San Diego County, and I've had no problem. As mentioned, maybe it's your ISP.

56 Bob G.  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:21:00am

These murderers do not represent true Islam. A real Muslim would have had the decency to wait a couple days for a fatwa before butchering van Gogh.

57 Earl  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:21:09am

#20 s44

Rotterdam is rapidly becoming like Malmo, Sweden.

Even our Dutch rellies are getting worried about the muslims in the NL - around Aalst, Breukelen, Mastricht, Bergen op Zoom, etc.- all over the country.

As for the killing of van Gogh, well, it's all there in surah 47:4. No mystery as to the theological underpinnings of this barbarity.

Question is- will the Dutch now clamp down on this islamist Fifth Column? Or is it to be more self-flagellation over "root causes"?

58 gromster  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:21:11am

This part from the article --
“Afraid of being called racist, we have been so tolerant with regard to these religious [Islamo] fascists that they have been allowed to merrily undermine the roots of our freedom,” it said. ...

-- sounds like the USA in the politically correct crowd. For the Muslims that just want to read their Korans quietly in their own homes, fine, but so many of the rest seem bent on killing all non-Muslims.

59 scaramouche  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:21:12am

Tolerance is fine and dandy if both parties agree to its terms, but it becomes a ridiculous encumbrance when one one culture does not subscribe to it and takes steps to impose its beliefs on the larger society. At that point, the whole notion of multicultural amity becomes not only absurd, but dangerous, as Theo van Gough discovered yesterday with fatal results.

60 mglazer  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:21:15am

The basic and fundamental moral principle that murder is wrong and those committing it should be severly punished as to display value to the innocence stolen by the criminals is a bedrock of why I, a 20-something New Yorker, became a Republican when I was very a teenager and have always been so.

I need to know those who do wrong will not be given a free pass and the victims losses will be ignored

61 levi from queens  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:21:17am

Queens is probably the most tolerant and multi-culti spot on Earth. And we are quite proud of it -- the signature line:

The U.N. is where all of the nations of the Earth try to learn how to live together. If they would just take the 7 train to Queens, they could see how it is done.

I note that the local terrorist restaurant (we serve Halal and provide pro-Hamas newspapers in English, Urdu, and Arabic) closed shortly after 9-11. It reopened in grand style 5 weeks ago with big bucks into decorating, rent, and furnishings. It reclosed 3 weeks ago.

62 Bob with one O  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:22:20am

I saw earlier that the Dutch marched in the street because of the murder.

63 DamascusorBust  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:22:41am

OT

Here is a fantastically ignorent post from over at the daily KOS...


"George Bush is a murderous fascist" should have been a good enough message. But it wasn't, because among the red states, the only thing worse than a fag, a n*****, or a wetback is a Catholic. And we gave them a Catholic to vote against.

Isnt that sooo witty and clever?

They make me sick.

64 mglazer  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:22:49am

If my government and society cannot give me that confidence I will forge a new one and so we have been

65 Joel  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:24:21am

Somehow I do not feel sympathy for the Dutch. They allow a piece of crap such as Greta Van Duisenberg make anti Semitic comments and yet they are blissfully unaware of the cancer within their midst.

66 roman thomas  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:24:49am

FIRST of all- what happened to europeans having any balls. unless conquering weak countries counts.

SECOND - if anyone knows the dutch, they are the biggest humans in the world. and always act like their pussies hurt

THIRD- my friends from key west went to holland in '98
and had a gun stuck in their mouth, and beaten with bats and stun guns after hours by a bunch of moroccans. who were later caught and had not much done to them.

When they gonna learn that appeasing these animals doesn't work. and they're losing the battle.

67 aurelian  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:24:57am

OT: Sorry to ask this, but could someone point me to an online map of the world which shows current conflicts between the Dar-al-Harb and Dar-al-Islam? I recall having seen a few but can’t find any that are really good. I’m having a frustrating online debate and can’t do this piecemeal anymore. Thanks!

68 Desso Studios  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:25:15am

OT

---===(SPLAT]

(edward's political wad)

69 Sihlus  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:25:30am
I've had MSN problems all day. I can only access MSN when I've got AOL up also.

/computer challenged and using foul language

I have a one-word solution for you.

Netscape

8^)

70 Barbara Skolaut  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:25:50am

Islamic radicals? Really?

I would have bet the farm it was Norwegian Lutherens. Or possibly radical Amish.

DUH!

71 russell.j.coller.jr  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:26:05am

To UKid :


Well Anne Frank was informed on by someone's
uncle / grandfather over there ...

The French don't sweat the importation of Arab oil
due to massive Elec Generation via the nucular
chain reaction 80 % +

ne pas ?

72 Jetstorm  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:26:14am

Dan Tanna re: #32

Tony Blair is saying what he has to say to get the far-lefty Brits who are pathologically obsessed with Israel (in a negative way, of course) off his back and keep his domestic political house settled. Also, on this issue, he is still a starry-eyed idealist, convinced that, somewhere down the line, Israeli and Palestinian children will one day hold hands and sing Kumbayah.

I really don't think he is closet Jew-hater, although I have been wrong before.

And I think we do need to make his life easier somehow and that we do owe him something. Tony really went out on a limb for us, and if we want to keep any sort of coalition going, we need to make it worthwhile to our allies. Blair sides with us on principle, so I say we should help him out, on principle.

If I were President Bush, I would just tell Tony this: "Peace process? Road map? Israel and the U.S are right here waiting. As for sitting down and re-engaging the peace process though, really and truly, that's up to the Palestinians. Arafat's going to die, hopefully sooner rather than later. They have a golden oppurtunity to throw in behind a leader who really wants peace and is not a raving Jew-killer. If they take it, and come to us for real, we'll listen. If not, expect more of the same."

73 alkmyst  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:26:16am

OT -

Looks as if their "holy sites" no longer are off limits to the common arab, so bust out the bombs in Fallujah!!!

JEDDAH, 3 November 2004 - Ramadan is a season for spiritual reflection and worship. It has also become an opportunity for pickpockets throughout the Kingdom. Hundreds of expert pickpockets take advantage of the Ramadan crowds to steal. You could be in a souk or a mosque, reach for your wallet or bag only to find it is not there.
Countless people have had their money, wallets and passports taken ...
What makes the problem so difficult to solve is that the thieves commit their crimes inside the holy mosque. Sometimes they are even dressed in ihram and so look like pilgrims.
Mustapha Al-Shareef said, "I do not feel sorry for these criminals if they are caught. I think chopping off their hands is not enough. I think execution is the best punishment for such evil. How do they have the heart
to steal inside the holy mosque of Makkah? How could they do such a thing in the House of God? Sometimes they are only a few meters from the Holy Ka'aba.
74 Buckaroo  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:27:05am

# 63 D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

They're really providing us with a week's worth of entertainment today, eh?
:-)

75 maggie  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:27:26am

#40 jimann Thank God for the 2nd amend.but I say, to repeat the Queen of Hearts..."OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!"

76 roman thomas  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:28:21am

keep it up and they're going down quicker than a french heavyweight

77 gromster  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:28:23am

#17 Axiom

hee hee hee, I enjoyed your post.

78 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:28:25am
79 LarryW2LJ  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:28:34am

""George Bush is a murderous fascist" should have been a good enough message. But it wasn't, because among the red states, the only thing worse than a fag, a n*****, or a wetback is a Catholic. And we gave them a Catholic to vote against."


Ahhh, yes ... Catholic bashing. One of the last accepted prejudices allowed by the LLL.

I just love the hypocrisy of the "Party of Tolerance".

80 Peter Verkooijen  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:28:42am

#20 scoreboard44, the Netherlands is not so much 'overrun by Muslims', it's a combination of that with leftwing political correctness. Remember that Pim Fortuyn was shot by an animal rights activist, not a muslim immigrant. The 'social democrats' (Labor Party) and greens still control most of the major media. The whole public debate in the Netherlands is frustratingly besides the point. Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh were among the few who wrote with clarity about what was going on. With them gone I see no hope for the Netherlands. The country will disintegrate under the converging forces of islam (cough, spit), the European Union and the international socialist agenda.

81 UKid  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:29:06am

#71

Mais, bien sur!

Sorry, enough French, I feel dirty.

82 russell.j.coller.jr  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:30:22am

To : Roman Thomas #66

Anne Frank's informer, Anne Frank's informer

sing it loud / proud

83 Bob with one O  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:30:29am

Alkmyst,

What in the world is a "Holy Kabob?" Like lamb and veggies?

84 quasi  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:30:31am

#31

It looks to be 1410 (by my calculations) pictures of various people. It appears to be service men/women. Would that number be almost the number of our brave soldiers that have died so far in Iraq? If that really is what this picture is then that fat sumbitch will get a 30-06 round through his skull if he ever sets foot in my state...

85 eXcel  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:31:24am

#60 Re: how I became a Rep

Similar here, only I'm 22 and in CA. =)

86 Patrizio  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:31:28am

OFF TOPIC

Michael Moore's website has been redone/has collapsed, I wonder what he has in store...

87 paxnhymn  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:31:37am

78 song and dance man


uhh...CB who???

88 scaramouche  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:31:44am

My hometown likes to bill itself as the most multi-cultural city in the world, and for the most part, I am pleased with that designation. It means an interesting hodge-podge of humanity and the potential of sampling delicious ethnic food from places as far-flung as Afghanistan and Zimbabwe. As yet, an enraged Islamist hasn't taken a switchblade to someone critical of his faith, but I have no doubt that, given the perceived provocation, it could happen here too. That's why we cannot genuflect to the secular god of multiculturalism if it means we must tolerate the intolerance of radical Islam.

89 Jetstorm  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:31:59am

DamascusorBust re: #63

Heavily Catholic Louisiana and New Mexico will go for Bush. And what do they think south Florida Cubans are, Southern Baptists? I'll bet they don't have a snippy retort for that, do they?

The Kos Kommies really don't get us red-staters, and they don't want to get us. It's just so much easier for them to think we're all evil bigots. Very intellectually lazy, if you ask me.

That's the hard question the Left needs to be asking themselves today. But I know it won't happen.

90 jimann  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:32:00am
maggie

I concur completely.

91 brent  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:32:10am
Theo van Gogh, who angered Muslims with a film that said Islam encouraged violence against women, was shot dead on Tuesday. A man with Dutch and Moroccan nationality was arrested for the killing, and suspected of Islamic extremist motives.

Of course that angered them - focusing on the violence towards women undermines the violence itself. We're trying to make a statement here, and you're missing the bigger point.

It's an extremist thing, you wouldn't understand.

92 Phil.  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:33:17am

Ahem Charles,

Might want to check out Michael Moore's site right about now. Looks like he's done some revamping on the main page.

That guy really just has no class whatsoever.

93 selpaw  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:33:52am

32 Dan Tanna

Of course, what ol Tony wants are the Jews on a platter.

Yes he does.

42 zulubaby
Time will tell.

There was an article in last weeks Jewish Forward. (an oh so liberal newspaper) Kerry Rails Against Bush on Holocaust Restitution. Of course we know that Kerry was simply grandstanding and for sure he is not one to trust. However it is the meat of this article which can not be disputed. It is a long piece I hope everyone reads it.

The most explosive charge is that the administration effectively dropped pressure on Poland — home to Europe's largest prewar Jewish community and the only European nation that has not enacted restitution laws for private property — because of a desire to secure Polish support in the Iraq war. Poland currently has 2,500 troops in Iraq.


I backed the war with all my heart. I also backed President Bush. But the day must come where Jews/Israel will no longer be used as a pawn to anyone.

Please forgive me. This is a joyous day and I do not want to rain on this parade but today Tony Blair gave me the worst sour feeling I have felt in a long time. Tony Blair gave a wonderfuly generous gift to this country and I truly understand pay backs. Having said that Israel will not be one of them. Lets see now who all our friends really are.

94 Dan Tanna  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:34:10am

#42 Zulubaby

I agree with you Zulu...

Im banking that Bush is the man of conviction that we have seen for the last 4 years...I pray he wont succumb to the euro pressure to coddle Arafish, and the other thugs in the region.

Getting rid of Powell would be a nice first step.

95 Hila  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:34:35am

#86

He must be on the verge of suicide.

96 scaramouche  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:34:49am

#80 Peter Verkooijen

You sound exactly like a close friend of mine, one of your compatriots who was able to escape the confines of your socialist utopia and is now happily enjoying the endless vistas of Canada's Rocky Mountains. And believe me, he is one happy Dutchman.

97 Model4  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:34:49am

"Murder?" I thought it was an "execution" when a jihadi shoots, stabs, beheads or blows up some hapless civilian. Or better yet, "resistance."

#20 scoreboard44

I somehow can't picture the Dutch being overrun by Muslims.

How the hell did this happen.

Keep throwing food about in all the rooms of a house, and leave the doors and windows open all the time. Pretty soon, you're going to have all sorts of house guests, and it won't be pleasant. Nor will it be easy to rid yourself of them and the mess you've all made with your actions and inaction. Understand?

I wanna feel a tear welling up hear at what the guy in the article is saying, but this has all been told to them years ago. And those of us who have spelled out factually what the problems are with liberalism, multiculturalism, socialism and Islam have been demonized and attacked for daring to speak the truth. Yet now our own words are echoing back as some "new discovery" by the very same people that assaulted us for saying them in the first place.

Next step will be blaming us for not helping them out enough, after ignoring our offers to help all this time. Guess it's petty, but it would do many souls good to hear the leftists just once say "Gee, y'know you were right about unassimilated immigration, especially Islamic, in a welfare state, and we're sorry we didn't pay attention and gave you so much grief about it. Our judgement was clouded by emotion. Man, we've really screwed ourselves over."

98 paxnhymn  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:35:27am

86 Patrizio

well, I would never recommend suicide to anyone, but in Michael Moore's case...

no one's heard from him. I wonder if he's even alive. I mean, he was in the midwest. Someone may have mistaken his fat ass for one of their prze hogs and he may be hangin' in a smokehouse as we speak...

:-p

99 Buckaroo  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:36:49am

# 94 D

Powell doesn't see the 1st of the year ...

{I think Danforth might be a great replacement!}

100 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:37:12am
101 Studsup  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:37:57am

I've been reading the LLL rants here. It's appalling really that the LLL is seriously more worried about the evil Christian Right Wing, as if they were even remotely like the Islamic threat, a threat the LLL completely ignores. This man was killed for writing the truth about Islamic treatment of women. The LLL has embraced the holy Jihad by completely ignoring the threat they pose to the very causes that the LLL claims to champion. What hypocrites. I agree with some other poster who made the recommendation to tack the extra "L" on for "Loser", not because of the election, but because their blind hatred for their fellow Americans also blinds them to the real danger. A danger that this sad story so well illustrates. That's what really makes them losers.

Think NOW will be holding a candlelight vigil to honor this journalist, nah -- they want to rant about GWB, the Christian right and wire coathangers instead.

102 sunny  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:38:22am

OT: Gulf War Syndrome linked to Sarin

WMD's...No never there

103 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:38:39am

To all,

Now that the election is over, perhaps the blogosphere, and in particular this blog population can harness its energies to force the MSM to begin to talk about Islam realistically.

We take pride in keeping the MSM on its toes, now is the time to put its feet to the fire, so to speak.

The point is not to hassle ABC or CBS or Newsweek or the New York Times just for fun, but to spread the word about the real danger that Islam presents here in America if we allow it to insinuate itself without being allowed to criticize it. The truth must be spread to those that are not as aware as ourselves.

I am working with Ali Sina, an ex-Muslim at [Link: www.faithfreedom.org...] to produce an REAL Islam 101, and I would love some input on the best ways to distribute it, while doing an end-run around the MSM and the publishing world.

Please contact me with any suggestions at

questioningIslam@yahoo.com

My site can be reached by clicking on my name.

Thanks,

Ethelred

104 DrPepper  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:38:57am

#98 micheal moore has reared his ugly head... he has a picture of bush made from the war dead in iraq...

pathetic,

no class... SCUM BAG! may the family of a fallen soldier sue his FAT FRENCH AWWWSSSEEE

www.michealmoore.com

105 AdvancedMammoth  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:39:03am

#41 Apathy Curve

Finally! A few people are starting to see a glimmer of the light. It's not "Islamists" or "fundamentalist Islamists" or "militants" or "radicals" who are the problem here. They're only a symptom. The root cause is Islam, the religion. No, not all the followers of Islam. Probably not even the majority of them. It's not the people; it's the religion. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can start dealing with the real problem.
...
Islam, on the other hand, has not come into the modern world with the rest of us and adopted this free-thinking, freely tolerant system. It therefore leaves us two choices in dealing with it: destroy it as a coherent, organized force (a very, very difficult proposition at best), or try to slowly democratize and civilize the people living their lives in the grip of the religion. Civilize the people and countries, and the religion will (hopefully) follow. Mr. Bush realized this choice existed three years ago, and he's acting on a plan to accomplish the latter. We've just given him four more years to accomplish it. I sincerely hope he can do so--or at least make a good start. Otherwise, we're in for a very long 21st century, one that'll make the 20th look tranquil and brotherly by comparison.

I have been a strong supporter of Bush's democratization solution. The only way Islam will change is by changing itself, this action must be taken by individual reformers from within. In a democracy such individuals will stand a much better chance of not being imprisoned and executed before they have a chance to spread their enlightenment. It may take a century to happen, but at least our children will be able to thank Bush for his vision instead of being trapped in the same endless war.

106 wrathofg-d  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:39:06am

the best weapon for or against a democracy is a majority

It seems that, either on purpose or by accident, the Arabs & Muslims figured this out a while ago.

(Most likely in the fertile testing ground of ISRAEL)

So instead of going further into this thesis & boring you with long-winded rants and explanations of this theory & it's inevitable effect on the liberty, freedom, social, economic, religious and all aspects of any democracy over the next 50 to 1000 years... I will synthesize all aspects of this theory into a short, easily manageable (& quite enjoyable) SOLUTION... (or "fatwa")

YOU MUST...I repeat...MUST:

Have more SEX and more BABIES...beginning immediately

107 Phil.  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:39:11am

That mural on moore's site is really creepy, especially after the election has now been decided.

I have to tell you, I am starting to get concerned Michael Moore or one of his minions will resort to some sort of assasination attempt. Their hatred is all consuming. Perhaps someone should report this to the FBI?

108 AdvancedMammoth  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:39:18am

#41 Apathy Curve

Finally! A few people are starting to see a glimmer of the light. It's not "Islamists" or "fundamentalist Islamists" or "militants" or "radicals" who are the problem here. They're only a symptom. The root cause is Islam, the religion. No, not all the followers of Islam. Probably not even the majority of them. It's not the people; it's the religion. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can start dealing with the real problem.
...
Islam, on the other hand, has not come into the modern world with the rest of us and adopted this free-thinking, freely tolerant system. It therefore leaves us two choices in dealing with it: destroy it as a coherent, organized force (a very, very difficult proposition at best), or try to slowly democratize and civilize the people living their lives in the grip of the religion. Civilize the people and countries, and the religion will (hopefully) follow. Mr. Bush realized this choice existed three years ago, and he's acting on a plan to accomplish the latter. We've just given him four more years to accomplish it. I sincerely hope he can do so--or at least make a good start. Otherwise, we're in for a very long 21st century, one that'll make the 20th look tranquil and brotherly by comparison.

I have been a strong supporter of Bush's democratization solution. The only way Islam will change is by changing itself, this action must be taken by individual reformers from within. In a democracy such individuals will stand a much better chance of not being imprisoned and executed before they have a chance to spread their enlightenment. It may take a century to happen, but at least our children will be able to thank Bush for his vision instead of being trapped in the same endless war.

109 Occasional Reader  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:39:35am

#100 Rayra: Didn't you know? Mikey Moore is now a great friend of US military servicemen and women. His message is, "I think our babykillers, uh, I mean troops, should be brought home immediately."

110 russell.j.coller.jr  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:39:40am

98 paxnhymn


He's gone fishin' with Fredo


not a brother not a friend, not anything & i want one

days notice when you come to visit our mother...

111 Sta-Puft  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:39:54am

What a bunch of losers... I mean, really.

If they'd taken the time to cut off his ear, I could at least laugh at this.

You only get to kill a person once. Pity when amateurs screw it up.

112 Occasional Reader  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:41:45am

#106 wrathofgod:

YOU MUST...I repeat...MUST:


Have more SEX

[snaps a salute] Yes SIR! Anything for the cause!

113 gromster  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:41:48am

OT
#63 DamascusorBust

John Kerry was a Catholic? Hmm, I didn't know that. Not that it makes any difference to me.

FWIW, I voted for George W. Bush, not against John Kerry, so that liberal creep you were quoting can shut his pie hole.

I had several reasons why I voted for Bush - the only one anywhere near being 'anti Kerry' was just that I was sick of the left, its moral bankruptcy, and all their hateful anti-Bush / anti- Republican rhetoric.

I really didn't give a rat if Kerry worshiped rocks, was an atheist, or whatever - and I'm a Christian (of the Baptist persuasion).

The rabid left is really racking their heads trying to figure out why most of us didn't vote for Kerry, aren't they?

114 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:41:53am

Check out the picture of Arafish that accompanies this AFP story.

He looks like death warmed over.

115 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:42:40am
116 Asylum Aleikum  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:43:28am

Recent Tony Blair's statements regarding the "peace process" may have been made with the sKerry administration in mind.

117 Renna  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:43:32am

#73 alkmyst -

That cannot be right. There cannot be pickpockets at Ramadan because someone assured me theft is forbidden in Islam, like behe@ding. But I'm sure Mr. Mustapha Al-Shareef is correct that capital punishment for pickpockets is the appropriate response.

118 LouMinatti  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:43:44am

Things are only going to get worse for our friends across the pond. For some reason, true cultural assimilation is not as simple in Europe as it is in the US and Canada. Perhaps it's due to the fact that we're a country of immigrants, and despite our problems we've somehow coalesced. I think many Europeans hate us for this, and all they can say is we're fat and stupid and our culture sucks. They are in a cross-state of denial and panic over what is to come for their children.

Fundamentalist Moslems don't want to assimilate. They want to continue their 7th century practices in a 21st century world. Small countries like the Netherlands cannot survive as free democracies when a hugely growing proportion of their citizens believe in primitive barbarism.

I predict that within our lifetime we will see a massive migration of "native" Europeans, fleeing to places like Canada, the US and Australia. It's already happening to a certain extent, with many more people leaving Germany, Sweden, etc. than coming in from other modern countries. In 2104, will our great-grandchildren witness fundamentalist Muslims destroying the "decadent" masterpieces contained in the Louvre? The sacking and looting of Vatican treasures? I think it's quite possible, based on what we saw in Afghanistan earlier in 2001.

119 Dan Tanna  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:43:55am

93 selpaw 11/3/2004 01:33PM PST said:

Please forgive me. This is a joyous day and I do not want to rain on this parade but today Tony Blair gave me the worst sour feeling I have felt in a long time. Tony Blair gave a wonderfuly generous gift to this country and I truly understand pay backs. Having said that Israel will not be one of them. Lets see now who all our friends really are.
---

Thanks for pointing out the article in the "Jewish Forward". I wasnt aware of situation with Poland and Holocaust restitution.

Israel has long been used as a pawn...Im sure we all remember the madrid conference after the first gulf war. That being said this President is nothing like his Israel bashing dad.

For that reason, I hold out hope that President Bush will do right by Israel, and not sell her off for re entry in the global country club.

120 The Keeper  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:44:25am

Example: Assimilation

Dad's relatives moved to Germany 45 years ago or more, like we did here(California).

They and we learned the language, Government, customs, became Citizens, contributed, and have childrens' children in the Army, running major hotels, you know...working, living life like locals.

Because THAT is WHAT you do, to enjoy and get along in your HOME.

And everyone is a participating Citizen of that Nation, speaking the language, enjoying their BIRTH Culture or Race, per say, but assimilating.

like ub40 said in a great song...food for thought.

121 brent  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:45:08am

Intellectual laziness? I saw that here earlier, and it reminded me...

My ex is a big Dem, and we haven't really talked this summer over election friction. Last straw to me was her asking me if, being a repuke, I was a racist - more like "you're racist". Known here for 20 years, never gave her any cause to think this, much cause NOT to, but based on my politics - racist.

No thinking, just the same kind of reaction you get by sticking your finger down your throat. I've talked to her since, but I never got over that.

So, when the local mayor spends the last week saying that the republicans are "coming to town" to take "our vote away again", I get the same feeling. No thought, just "watch out, those racists are coming to steal your vote!". Intellectually lazy.


Next time she comes up for election, I'm breaking up with her, too.

122 Sihlus  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:46:05am
no one's heard from him. I wonder if he's even alive. I mean, he was in the midwest. Someone may have mistaken his fat ass for one of their prze hogs and he may be hangin' in a smokehouse as we speak...


No way. We know the difference between a hog and a skunk.


OT:
CNN finally declared NM for Bush.

123 Victor  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:46:28am

The gauntlet is down.

How will the Dutch respond?

Do they still have the moral courage, the moral clarity to fight? Or are they too far gone in decay? I pray for brave Dutch hearts. The Dutch are our courageous allies in Iraq. Let us prove ourselves to be their stalwart allies in their time of need.

124 Melvin Frohike  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:46:30am

We've already seen worldwide that a large portion of Muslims cannot get along with non-Muslims. It usually ends in the death of non-Muslims. The Dutch should declare Holland a Islamic freezone. Outlaw the death cult and if Muslims don't like it, they can always move to France or back to Africa. If the Dutch have the backbone to do this then it will domino -- maybe saving Europe.

125 hermes1LA  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:48:00am

I say Europe needs more Muslim immigrants.

Let's be tolerant. Let them in. Let us accomodate them. Let our religions co-exist.

After all, isn't it the religion of peace?

Europe deserves what it gets. More of secularism, more of humanism, more of atheism, more of socialism.

And please take John Kerry from us. He might have a plan for socialist atheist Europe.

126 Hila  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:48:04am

Could someone please fill me in on Blair's speech.

127 Lizard By The Bay  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:48:07am

OT:

Coming up on MSNBC: Dr. Joyce Brothers will be giving "coping strategies" to despondant Kerry supporters.

Grieving moonbats! This is not to be missed...

128 b keene  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:48:10am

#41 excellent essay. i agree, islam is a 13th century luddite blight on worldwide society that seeks to consume and dominate anything in its way

129 mglazer  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:48:43am

The master formula to spread freedom and peace throughout the arab world is a simple three-pronged approach

1. Porn

2. Pork

3. Booze

130 Post-it Notes  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:49:39am

Moore is a TOTAL shitbag!

If that ain't lawsuit material...

131 SouthAmericanWay  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:51:21am

OT

Take a look at this man's insolence:

Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin said Wednesday he would be telephoning Bush to congratulate him but would also raise some bilateral problems.

Speaking to reporters after meeting with his Liberal Party members of parliament, Martin said he would specifically be raising US restrictions on the imports of Canadian softwood lumber and beef.

He added that he would also bring up multilateral issues, especially "the need for a new multilateralism" -- an apparent reference to Bush's tendency in his first term to act alone, without securing United Nations support.

Goodness, what an idiot!

132 Lizard By The Bay  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:51:40am

mglazer:

You missed the big strategy:

EDUCATE THE WOMEN

Take away the Arab man's "property", and you'll see a real cultural shift. Unfortunately, just giving them porn will re-enforce their concepts of property and the place of women.

133 Victor  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:52:05am

#122 Sihlus 11/3/2004 01:46PM PST


"OT:
CNN finally declared NM for Bush."

Thanks, Sihlus, "NM for Bush" -- that is for sure the sweetest "OT" I've had the pleasure to read on LGF. It is a fine, fine day. :-)

134 maggie  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:52:30am

#90 jimann or we could let loose that old bird know as the' scissor bird ' that cries in the forest ...ummm gonna cut your cock off!!!

135 jclenman  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:52:30am

OT

Has anyone been to MIchael Moore's website today?

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

I wanted to drop by to see if he was throwing a tantrum...instead, there's just a picture of Bush.

What...is he trying to make us believe Bush is Big Brother?

What an ASS!

136 dustyroadguy  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:52:40am

Victor

No

137 southwestpaw  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:53:24am

The very least the gov't should do is show his movie.
Nonstop.

138 gromster  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:53:28am

#86 Patrizio and #92

I just went to Moore's site. That picture he has up now? I recall a conservative poster here at LGF linked to it a few days ago - it's an image of George W. Bush made up of lots of smaller photos of people who have been killed in Iraq. The artist is a liberal.

139 Hila  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:54:32am

Forget about Moore, he's old news.

140 wrathofg-d  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:54:44am

Occasional Reader:

Hey...when it's for G-d & Country...we all must do our part.

At ease. Carry-on. ;)

141 Dan Tanna  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:55:18am

#72 Jetstorm

I dont think Blair is a anti semite...

I would agree with you that he has problems with the left wing loons that populate his party.

But it was the cold way that Blair made the statement. I got the feeling it was like an ultimatum.

These euro's always think the Israeli-Palestinian problem is the one issue keeping us from establishing world peace.

But, as the murder of Van Gogh shows...they have much larger problems than making sure that Arafish and his thugs have a home to call their own.

142 Cousin Dave  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:55:45am

#14 Capt. Queeg:

And now (unfortunately) back to our regulary scheduled programming. There is much hard work left to be done.

Yep. Since this seems to be the day for song quotes, I'll throw this out from Genesis' "Watcher of the Skies":

From life alone, to life as one
Think not now your journey's done.
And though your ship be sturdy, no mercy has the sea
Will you survive on the ocean of being?

143 jclenman  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:55:53am
Afraid of being called racist, we have been so tolerant with regard to these religious fascists that they have been allowed to merrily undermine the roots of our freedom,” it said. ...

Bingo!

144 Lizard By The Bay  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:58:28am

C-SPAN is replaying Kerry's concession speech right now. If you missed it, catch it!

145 Havoc  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:58:44am

Perhaps the Dutch, and the The Swiss,-- The Swedes , --the French ,-- and good people of Lille France;
--
Shoud read this, regarding 38 states with "Right to Carry" Laws ...

* More RTC states, less crime. The nation`s violent crime rate has decreased every year since 1991 and in 2002 hit a 23-year low. In the same period, 17 states adopted and 13 states improved RTC laws. RTC states have lower violent crime rates, on average: 24% lower total violent crime, 22% lower murder, 37% lower robbery, and 20% lower aggravated assault. The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. (Data: FBI)
* RTC and crime trends. Studying crime trends in every county in the U.S., John Lott and David Mustard found, "allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have Right to Carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly...(T)he estimated annual gain from allowing concealed handguns is at least $6.214 billion...(W)hen state concealed handgun laws went into effect in a county, murders fell by 8.5 percent, and rapes and aggravated assaults fell by 5 and 7 percent." ("Crime, Deterrence, and Right To Carry Concealed Handguns," 1996.)
* Gun control supporters` false predictions. "Whenever a state legislature first considers a concealed-carry bill, opponents typically warn of horrible consequences...But within a year of passage, the issue usually drops off the news media`s radar screen, while gun-control advocates in the legislature conclude that the law wasn`t so bad after all." (David Kopel, "The Untold Triumph of Concealed-Carry Permits," Policy Review, July-Aug. 1996, p. 9.) "Concerns that permit holders would lose their tempers in traffic accidents have been unfounded. Worries about risks to police officers have also proved unfounded...National surveys of police show they support concealed handgun laws by a 3-1 margin...There is also not a single academic study that claims Right to Carry laws have increased state crime rates. The debate among academics has been over how large the benefits have been." ("Should Michigan keep new concealed weapon law? Don`t believe gun foe scare tactics," Detroit News, 1/14/01.)

146 harley  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:59:03am

#41 Apathy Curve
When did Heinlen say that? I thought I'd read all his stuff.
I agree, Islam is the problem

147 John B  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 11:59:34am

Re: #67 Aurelian:

I haven't seen such a map but it's easy to visualize. Take any country with a sizeable Muslim minority or Muslim country with any non-muslim minority and there you have it - instant chaos. I have yet to see a situation where Muslims get along with any other religion - including variations of their own. Most religions get along quite nicely most of the time, Hindu, Christian, Bhuddist, Jewish, atheist, whatever - but Muslims - sorry but never the case.

148 mglazer  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:00:06pm

Email MM

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

149 jillosophy  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:00:34pm

The Dutch get it.

150 dustyroadguy  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:00:36pm

Lizard By the Bay

can you in your wildest dreams imagine the MSM ever doing this 'service' for republican supports whose canidate lost?...

OMG...

It may just be to late to save these people...

151 mglazer  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:02:36pm

This was my email to Double MM

"LaWho-Saher"

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

152 Renna  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:02:49pm

#150 dusty

To be fair, republicans who lost wouldn't NEED it.

153 Hila  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:04:34pm

OT

Arafat is in a critical condition! This is going to be one of the best days ever!

154 JWM  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:04:43pm

#41 Apathy Curve:

Excellent. Although I'm not an atheist, I very much respect your take on religion. I totally agree with your assessment of islam.
JWM

155 Earl  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:04:44pm

Daniel Pipes has perfectly framed the paradigm arising from Theo van Gogh's execution:

Education by Murder

But, will the Dutch learn anything from this atrocity?

156 Rancher  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:05:21pm

#78 song_and_dance_man
Kerry Spot says everyone beat CBS

#74 Buckaroo

2008!

Sorry, can’t quit doing that. The thread Charles put up with the LLL Blogs greatest hits was the funniest thing I’ve seen in ages. My favorite was the Evil Magicians working for bush.

157 Lizard By The Bay  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:06:28pm

Renna,

Indeed. We Republicans are not members of the weeping kleenex brigade.

158 Uncle Joe  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:06:37pm

Europe is deep into their own politically correct suicide. The Dutch and the rest of Europe aren't going to do anything but take it from the Muslims until they are destroyed.

They are too gutless and full of self-hatred to defend themselves.

159 Victor  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:06:58pm

#139 Hila  11/3/2004 01:54PM PST

"Forget about Moore, he's old news."

Thanks be to benevolent Providence! -- we are spared the supreme torture of seeing Micheal Moore gloating.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

(but, "old news?" -- wait'll you get a load of what's coming!)

160 harley  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:07:25pm

#68 Desso Studios
LOL

161 Lizard By The Bay  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:09:09pm

OT:

The ratings are in, and CBS has successfully marginalized itself forever in the national news scene.

Ratings for election night coverage (rating/share):
NBC 10.7/15
ABC 9.2/13
CBS 6.1/8

162 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:09:35pm
163 Let's Roll  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:13:31pm

OT

Hey, did you notice that MoveOn.org is frozen in time, with no post-election changes to their site? Looks like they've lost their will to live.

Or, they're trying to think of another anti-American cause to devote all their money and twisted minds to.

164 Occasional Reader  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:14:02pm

OT: A modest proposal for Charles; is it maybe time to take down the CBS memo links from the top of the screen?

165 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:15:07pm

#162 ploome hineni

rest for a looong time

Better still, Arafat - Rest In Peace.

166 Lizard By The Bay  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:17:14pm

I hope Arafat takes a nap in Tunisia. A nice dirt nap.

167 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:18:23pm
168 Lizard By The Bay  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:18:33pm

Coming up on Fox News: Bernie Goldberg (writer of "Bias") will be talking about how the media tried (and failed) to assaniate Bush's character and performance this election while giving Kerry a pass.

169 selpaw  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:19:22pm

119 Dan Tanna
I hope so. I hope the broken promise for the American Embassy to be moved to Jerusalem (where it belongs) becomes unbroken. For all countries enjoy such a privilege, except Israel. I hope and pray Israelis begin to get the visas they deserve. For this punnishment was uncalled for. I hope the PLO/PA & Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade are put on a terror list like other terror organizations have. It is not too late and it is the right and honorable thing to do! PA Police Exposed as Terrorists (again!) I will always mourn the mistake that Arafat was not placed on the list of world terrorists. I will remind you that these are only 3 examples of how Israel is used for pay-backs.

170 zuckerlilly  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:19:23pm

Full Text of Blair's Statement on Bush Victory

...

President Bush’s re-election comes at a critical time.

A world that is fractured, divided and uncertain must be brought together to fight this global terrorism in all its forms, and to recognise that it will not be defeated by military might alone but also by demonstrating the strength of our common values, by bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq, as we have done to Afghanistan, by pursuing with the same energy peace in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine, by accepting it is our duty to combat poverty and injustice on the continent of Africa and elsewhere in the world.

In particular, I have long argued that the need to revitalise the Middle East peace process is the single most pressing political challenge in our world today.

Therefore, We must be relentless in our war against terrorism and in resolving the conditions and causes on which the terrorists prey.

We should work with President Bush on this agenda. It is one which all nations of goodwill can surely agree.

In particular, Europe and America must build anew their alliance.

All of us in positions of leadership, not just President Bush, have a responsibility to rise to this challenge. It is urgent that we do so.

Once again, I warmly congratulate President Bush on his victory.”

171 Studsup  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:19:55pm

#131 South American Way -- [PM Paul Martin] "He added that he would also bring up multilateral issues, especially "the need for a new multilateralism" -- an apparent reference to Bush's tendency in his first term to act alone, without securing United Nations support.


Goodness, what an idiot! "

Hey, Dubbya -- when he calls, have your secretary put him on hold so he can cool his jets for a few minutes. After Martin gives you his trite and insincere congratulations, when he starts into his lecture, tell him "Sorry Paul, got to take this other call, it's from the President of Afghanistan".

172 Elcid  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:21:44pm

“If Bush wins, then I can only feel joy that the American people did not allow itself to be intimidated, and made the most sensible decision,”

Russian President Vladimir Putin


Moscow News

173 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:22:02pm
174 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:22:07pm

OT Facing New Bias On Campus

As a freshman at Duke, the campus hosting the recent Palestinian Solidarity Movement’s annual conference, I was in the heart of the political storm...

...With the conference having now peacefully come and gone, I do not regret my support for it being held at Duke, but I understand far more clearly now that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is merely a sideshow to the persistent, if not quite resurgent phenomenon of campus anti-Semitism.

The lie about not being anti-semitic, simply anti-Zionist-my-heart-is-bleeding-for-the-Palestin ians, is wearing thinner and thinner.

175 moonsbreath  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:22:18pm

OT

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday welcomed a victory for George W. Bush in the U.S. presidential race, saying it meant Americans had not allowed themselves to be cowed by terrorists.

"If Bush wins, then I can only feel joy that the American people did not allow itself to be intimidated, and made the most sensible decision," Putin said at a Kremlin news conference after talks with Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi.

I wonder what Putin would have said had sKerry won?

[Link: www.signonsandiego.com...]

176 traveler  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:23:41pm

#41 Apathy Curve

Right on the mark. Islam the religion teaches, among other things, the hatred and killing of other human beings as their right.

177 alkmyst  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:24:35pm
#83 Bob with one O 11/3/2004 01:30PM PST
Alkmyst,

What in the world is a "Holy Kabob?" Like lamb and veggies?

Have you ever seen "2001", you know, the beginnning where the bestial primates worship at a big black slab of rock?

Something like that, I think... I don't know much arabic, only the following...

Itbach al yahoud? (Slaughter the Jews)
Ana yahoud! (I am a Jew)
Ma fish Philistina (There is no Palestine)
Wakf walla ana mehbu-khat! (Stop or I shoot)

Anything other than that I feel to be a wats of breath and valuable brain cell RAM

178 TenRing  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:26:06pm

Never. Underestimate. Your. Opponent.

The collage photo on MM's site is a brilliant statement of protest. I wish I'd thought of it. Hits you on several 'Aha' levels.

It's bad enough that some people choose to advance the cult of victimhood; making pawns of those who can no longer object is beneath contempt.

The crowd who berated president Bush for using a fleeting image of a 9/11 scene find no irony in using our young heroes' photos to deconstruct an icon.

It's not over, folks. We just won a round, not the match.

P.S. Now view the picture again. Not as a protest, but as an affirmation. Look at the portrait in an "E Pluribus Unim" sort of perspective.

Or even "An Army of One", if you wish.

179 sevoguy  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:26:10pm

Why there aren't many Moderate Muslims

Stating the obvious :

Any muslim moderate runs the risk of death from the extremists.

Any non-muslim that even dares to criticize islam or the islamists runs the risk of assassination/murder. This is a fact that just hasn't hit our country yet.

Islamic reformers will face the same brick wall---death for trying to reform islam. There is no negotiating with islamists.

My opinion and I have the right to express it; because I am not muslim...that's way.

180 Studsup  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:29:54pm

#164 Occasional Reader -- "OT: A modest proposal for Charles; is it maybe time to take down the CBS memo links from the top of the screen?"

Oh, absolutely not, we still have some hash to settle with the MSM -- remember, Paul Volcker's bucket of whitewash has yet to be served up. Do you think for a minute that the MSM is going to let up? They are already spinning this victory against Bush, they will only become more shrill and persistent in lying and undermining his second administration.

The CBS/DNC connection is Exhibit A in the case for the repeal of McCain Feingold.

My friend, the battle with the MSM has barely been joined. Americans today scored a victory over the DNC/MSM propaganda machine, but it was not the final victory. We won't achieve that until the MSM cleans house and demonstrably over a long period of time restores true balance and ultimately credibility.

181 Havoc  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:31:19pm

Dustyroad_guy

Slightly right of OT -- the "Balkanization" of the information Media has happened.

Advertisers will in the future be largely sold "Niche" marketing to their large client base - MSM = LLL chearleading audience and daytime opra audience

Fox advertisers will be targeting Thinking americans and will probably try to cross-sell with advertising on the more successfull Blogs.

Go Charles -- when you get that grass shack on the beach in Hawaii, I want to visit.

182 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:31:23pm

#163 let's roll

Michael Moore's site is also frozen in time.

Must be shock and awe.

183 Californican  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:32:34pm

I went to blockbuster last night to rent a movie. I had trouble finding any good movies in stock. They were all pretty picked over. The shelves were pretty bare,
EXCEPT
There was a full display of dozens of Farenhiet 9-11 movies.

It warmed the cockles of my heart.

(no I didnt rent it)

184 Doctor Phibes  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:33:01pm

Blair's plan is to secure his place in the history books by being the prime mover in the Isreali peace process, and then to retire from British politics and take one of the top jobs in the EU. He has no animosity towards Jews. There aren't enough hours in the day for him to be an anti-Semite, because all his time and energy are taken up by something far more important: Tony Blair.

185 JWM  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:33:05pm

RE: Joyce brothers and ailing moonbats.

I went to bed physically ill last night- pounding head, gut in a knot. I woke after three hours of fitful sleep, and I was scared to check the TV for results. I did. I fell back in bed and had nightmares until about nine am. One of the things I feared most, was the gloating that would come from Moore, Bin Laden, and Europe. Not to mention the whole jihadist world nation. I heard it was over, and Bush had won. Like all of you, I feel good. But I know how I would feel today I we had lost. I don't doubt, for all their wrongheadedness, that there are many decent people feeling seriously awful today. I really don't feel like rubbing their noses in it. Moore, Europe, and the islamofascists are a different matter. Realizing I have strayed from the assigned topic, I'd have to say that Van Gogh's murder serves as the first reminder, for me that, depite the election, the war goes on.
JWM

186 ferris  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:34:19pm

Well, it was a nice day to celebrate. Now back to the fight.

187 traveler  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:34:54pm

#174 RC Neo Jew

The lie about not being anti-semitic, simply anti-Zionist-my-heart-is-bleeding-for-th e-Palestinians, is wearing thinner and thinner

My eyes weren't opened to the whole Palestinian bag of lies until I read "From Time Immemorial", which spelled out what a bunch of crap it is. It's just a vehicle to annihilate the Jews, and Duke University is as blind to it as I used to be. They were duped.

188 godfrey  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:36:14pm

Theo Van Gogh is an artistic hero.

The Dutch won't kill, deport, or prohibit the influx of Moslems. They have to assimilate them or face civil war. How to do that?

Ploome, I asked about house-guests because the analogy is apt. Moslems aren't squatters because the property isn't vacant. The Dutch asked them in. Now they won't leave, and they're not family. What to do?

The US has long experience in assimilation. Hasn't the following worked, for quite a while? It's never a pretty process, and poor widdle feewings get hurt, but this is a good recipe:

- compulsory public education with stiff penalties for truancy
- require everyone to learn English
- require everyone to take world religion classes
- incentivize everyone to start businesses, join middle class
- stereotype jihadis/anarchists/fascists negatively in the media and arts (caveat: requires courage of a Van Gogh)
- subject kids to corrosive pop culture

And of course one should now add:

- monitor/deport radical clerics

189 andrew2  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:37:03pm

This is what they think of us:

SLAUGHTER

190 Californican  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:37:43pm

...just to clarify, I was'nt happy that there were dozens of 9-11 movies in the Blockbuster, only that none of them were being rented...

snicker snicker

191 TenRing  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:44:18pm

#179 Sevoguy

Why there aren't many Moderate Muslims

The Mafia used Italian Americans as cover - to be able to find sympathizers, to extort, to recruit - as did the Chinese Tongs and the Japanese Yakuza (not sure on the spellings) within their ethnicities.

Allowing benefit of doubt (that some of our Middle East immigrants may have been intimidated or theatened into silence) I want to be very, very careful that we don't throw these new American babies out with the dirty bathwater.

Something about the "Send 'em all back with the camels they came in on" attitude which grates on this third-generation Scots-Irish-Dutch-German-American.

The LLL are scared to death of what they've been telling each other about us - let's not reinforce the faulty stereotype.

192 aurelian  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:44:25pm

This small hiccup of a "response" in the Netherlands will soon be consumed in a sea of apologism, moral relativism, and Islamophilia. Europe is a lost cause.

#147 John B:

No, I know, but I need an actual map. I would draft my own but my cartography skills evaporated years ago. I've seen maps that show "Islam's Bloody Frontiers" - along the lines of Samuel Huntington, with good geographic keys.

193 zelda  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:47:57pm

#79LarryW2LJ
""George Bush is a murderous fascist" should have been a good enough message. But it wasn't, because among the red states, the only thing worse than a fag, a n*****, or a wetback is a Catholic. And we gave them a Catholic to vote against."

Please a cafeteria style Catholic, there is a difference. Yes the last accepted form of prejudice. We actually have a spine and respond when needed to these attacks.

194 Apathy Curve  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:49:16pm

#146 harley

I lifted the quote from "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long." I'm not sure which novel it originated from, if any. I know that at least a portion of the quotes in "Notebooks" were previously unpublished content at the time it was originally released. Below is the quote in full. I admit to taking it slightly out of context, (by applying it to religious belief rather than ancestry), but I believe I still used it in the spirit it was originally written by Heinlein. I am convinced that Heinlein was one of the wisest men of the 20th century; he just doesn't get credit for it, mainly because he didn't have the arrogance to publish his musings as "philosophy."

This sad little lizard told me that he was a brontosaurus on his mother's side. I did not laugh; people who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them. Humoring them costs nothing and adds to happiness in a world in which happiness is always in short supply. - Robert Heinlein
195 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:56:10pm

#191

There really are no moderate Muslims. Those that claim to be are:

1) lying
2) ignorant of that which is in the Koran (but might not be tomorrow)
3) claim to ignore or be above the violent stuff (i.e. Ijaz Mansoor) (and again might not do so tomorrow).

Allow me to quote once again Hugh Fitzgerald from JihadWatch, as to why Islam, and hence the basis of the Muslim personality cannot change:

1) the canonical texts are immutable 2) the gates of ijtihad slammed shut a millennium ago 3) anyone who does not know the full Qur'anic teachings is always open to learning them -- and then, instead of rejecting them, many people will embrace them -- so strong is the brainwashing of Islam 4) should we Infidels take a chance that a sufficient number of Muslims will NOT accept the full teacings of Islam? Why? What is the evidence from history -- the evidence all goes the other, more painful and distressing way. Why should we act on anything other than Ibn Warraq's formulation: "There are moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate." To which I would add: One never knows precisely in what that "moderation" consists -- is it the result of ignorance, or of knowledge and then deliberate rejection of some of the tenets of Islam? Only the latter is acceptable, because ignorance can always be replaced by knowledge and then acceptance. And if there is at this point "deliberate rejection" by a few Muslims of the worst and most dangerous teachings of Islam, so what? They are a very small number. They do not speak out. They help to render Infidels unwary, and more susceptible to Da'wa, demographic conquest, and the other kind as well. And finally, they can always change their minds, and become more insistent on jihad, etc. And besides, again, WHY should Infidels base their entire way of thought, way of life, achievements as a civilization, legacy that ought to be tended, however imperfect we are, and handed down to some pathetic posterity (god knows we don't deserve the legacy of those centuries), on the assurances of "some" Muslims or the belief by some non-Muslims that "some" Muslims, are neither 1) ignorant of Muslim teachings nor 2) practicing taqiyya or 3) embarrassed to admit to themselves, or to others, what those teachings really mean and actually do not wish non-Muslims ill. What a chance to take! What folly!

Every Muslim in America simply increases their political power, the power of the CAIR's and the power of those Muslims that WILL act on the teachings of the Quran.

Ethelred - questioningIslam@yahoo.com

196 harley  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:56:43pm

#194 Apathy Curve
I agree with your assesment of Heinlen, very wise. I'll have to get a hold of "Notebooks" Lazarus is one of my favorite characters. The first book I read with him in it was Methuselah's Children, fun book. Sorry about this going way OT

197 Beagle  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 12:58:40pm

#191 TenRing

The Scots-Irish-Dutch-Germans did not bring the same baggage (sharia, jihad, taqiyya, etc.). Watching the so-called moderate Muslims turn a discussion about beheadings into a conversation about Israel three hundred times forces me to conclude all they care about is their religious tribe.

I don't know what to do with a religion which is so completely foreign to our constitutional system of government.

198 jwehman  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:03:11pm

Speaking of "Religion of Peace" - when somebody pontificates that Muslims are peaceful, (Western)Law-abiding people, ask them is that *BECAUSE* of their religion...or *IN SPITE OF* their religion.

199 Dan Tanna  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:13:36pm

#169 Selpaw

Im not disagreeing with you.

As you have shown, the US is not immune when it comes to these mistakes regarding Israel.

But I believe in the long term that Bush, who I voted for, will do right by Israel.

No one is perfect, and I would hope some of the promises made, like moving the embassy to Jerusalem, would be done, however, we all know that if Kerry was elected, the libs would have rushed even faster to put Israel on the fire.

200 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:19:13pm

Words from Don McLean's Starry Starry Night, written for another Van Gogh, come to mind

The silver thorn, a
bloody rose Lie crushed and
broken on the virgin snow….
They would not listen, they did not know how.
Perhaps they'll listen now.

Now I think I know what you tried to say to me,
How you suffered for your sanity,
How you tried to set them free.
They would not listen, they're not listening still.
Perhaps they never will. "

201 Rose  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:32:32pm

PLEASE READ THIS LETTER FROM EX MUSLIMS

The War just beginning-we have to be united and vigilent

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

GO USA we March in step with you

202 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:32:57pm

Islam is the problem. That is understood by LGFers for a long time. I would also add that muslims are the very first victims of islam.

So how does one solve the problem? One can treat islam an ideology that provides a cover for the enslavement of humans. Islam as we all know, means submission. Submission to allah and mohammed. There is no questioning or openness in islam. Just submission. In essence, islam requires, nay forces its adherents to submit ie they become slaves. It is for this reason that innovation ceases, when a nation or people submit to islam.

If one admits that islam is an ideology that is akin to racism of the worst sort ie as it reduces all people to mindless slaves of allah/mohammed, this then allows us to ask, if it possible to eliminate islam in much the same way slavery was eliminated in many parts of the world. It is interesting to note that traditional slavery exists mainly in the islamic world.

203 Rose  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:37:50pm

Israel first offered a two state solution, a Palestinian state, but the Arabs rejected it! "In 1967 Israel accepted Resolution 242, in which the United Nations called for the return of territories captured in exchange for full peace and secure boundaries." All Arab states rejected it saying, "no peace, no recognition, no negotiations,"

In the years 2000 and 2001 Ehud Barak along with President Bill Clinton had initially offered the Palestinians EVERYTHING they were asking for -- a state made up of 97% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, a capital in Jerusalem, control of East Jerusalem, control of the Temple Mount, 30 billion dollars in a compensation package, and symbolic return of several thousand refugees instead of accepting it or coming back to the negotiating table, Arafat walked away and started the intifada and all the violence.

Prince Bandar at Taba called Arafat's rejection of the offer a crime against the Palestinian people and against all the people of the region."

To this day all Arab countries that could have accommodated these ‘refugees,’ have used various laws, including those prohibiting land and business ownership, to prevent the original refugees and their descendants from becoming permanent citizens. These laws, and the desire to use the issue of "refugee suffering" as a political tool against Israel, have in fact caused the continued suffering for the camp residents and their descendants."

Zahir Muhsein, Executive Committee Member of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, said the following in an interview with the Dutch newspaper “Trouw” March 31,1977:

“The Palestinian people does not exist, The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the State of Israel for our Arab Unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ’Palestinian people ‘ to op Zionism

204 thinkingmom  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:43:09pm

How about insisting that any muslim that wants to immigrate to a European country learn about how to "tolerate" the majority's culture? Like maybe learn about European history from the point of view of the Europeans, as well as the Christian background for European civilization? You know, as if you had a culture you were proud of? As for the U.S., I don't think we should permit any more muslim immigration, since 1) we don't need them, and 2) it's obvious that they're, on balance, a huge negative. Time to face reality. Past time.

205 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:45:34pm

#201 and #202 - Rose and DP111

Please contact me at the website linked to by my name.

I am working with Ali Sina on a REAL Islam 101 book designed to be to the point, and much more direct than Ibn Warraq's "Why I Am Not A Muslim". The issue becomes one of distribution. How can we get it into the hands of as many people as possible, including those who, up til now, have not thought much about Islam and the danger it presents? I am thinking of a PDF version and a self-publish version. Besides being much more difficult, a regularly published book just ends up getting swamped with the PC crap.

Ali Sina wants to do two things:

1) expose Islam so that nominal Muslims, those born into it and who know nothing can get the courage to actually leave Islam.

2) enable non-Muslims to have the knowledge to begin to vocally reject Islam as a protected religion and have it be grouped with Nazism as a hateful belief-system/ideology.

DP111 - see #195. Muslims must take care of themselves, we cannot do it for them. First things first - protect ourselves and get Islam banned!

Ethelred

206 traveler  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:46:33pm

#198 jwehman

Speaking of "Religion of Peace" - when somebody pontificates that Muslims are peaceful, (Western)Law-abiding people, ask them is that *BECAUSE* of their religion...or *IN SPITE OF* their religion.

Exactly. A moderate Muslim is, by the Koran's own definition, not a good Muslim.

207 Q  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:56:21pm

TR (#191):

I want to be very, very careful that we don't throw these new American babies out with the dirty bathwater.

The bathwater is deadly poisonous, and the babies are anything but American.

And what would be a single benefit of having Muslims here at all? To echo grayp, Islam may stop murdering children and oppressing women this very second -- it will still remain a sterile, obscurantist, spiritually deadening, worthless creed. We have nothing to gain and everything to lose from its presence in our midst.

208 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:56:44pm

A very interesting read

No Appeasement in the War on Terror - Geoff Metcalf

It was Bill Clinton’s aggression siding with Albanian Muslims against the Christian Serbs that wasn’t only counter-intuitive but literally put us on the wrong side of a conflict destined to touch our shores.

[Link: www.newsmax.com...]

209 traveler  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 1:58:34pm

#208 dp111

Excellent read. Thanks for the link.

210 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:12:59pm

207 Q

We have nothing to gain and everything to lose from its presence in our midst.

I agree. The murder of Van Gogh is yet another example of free debate being stifled in the West. It is becoming increasingly difficult for anyone to criticise islam. If this becomes accepted as the norm, then other cults or groups will also take the example of islamists. Goodbye Freedom of Speech and Freedom of expression, the most valued freedom of Western civilisation.

So far writers have been the main target. Now film makers are murdered. What next? Artists? Will paintings of Rembrandt and Renoir become offensive to islam? They probably are but they havnt said so yet.

Without freedom of debate, innovation and civilisation come to a stop and regression starts. This has been the case in all nations that have been enslaved by islam.

211 abu_garcia  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:19:33pm

#41 Apathy Curve

Well said.

212 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:25:53pm

Q

Note the extreme hesitancy of the media in Holland to say the "I" word. It is racism or a failure of multi-cultaralism. Anything but name islam. This despite the continuous din of jihadi murders on our shores, our MSM refuses to name the "I" word. Oh, there is the occasional reference to Islamists, a group who take an extreme interpretation of islam. No one though is prepared (The Daily Telegraph is the exception), to name Islam as the main reason for so much grief and woe in the world.

So long as the MSM refuses to ackwoledge that the canonical texts of islam are the main cause, we will continue to blunder along. And here is the rub. The murder of Van Gogh is a warning to editors around the world, of the fate that awaits them if they transgress the boundary set by islam.

213 Q  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:27:27pm

DP111 (#210):

Will paintings of Rembrandt and Renoir become offensive to islam? They probably are but they havnt said so yet.

I seem to remember Muslims raising shit about some fanciful 19th century European depiction of Mo surrounded by naked broads. There was a LGF thread about that.

214 Rufus Lee King  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:29:34pm
I somehow can't picture the Dutch being overrun by Muslims. How did it happen?

Terminal hipness.

215 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:34:25pm

#212 DP111

Nail on head time:

So long as the MSM refuses to ackwoledge that the canonical texts of islam are the main cause, we will continue to blunder along. And here is the rub.

I ask once again in this forum: How can we harness the power of this and other blogs to force the MSM to begin to expose Islam?

Help me and Ali Sina figure it out.

TIA

Ethelred - questioningIslam@yahoo.com

216 nikita  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:42:06pm

Dispute Splits Bulgaria's Muslims - Nicholas Wood (International Herald Tribune)
Since 2002, rival members of Bulgaria's Muslim community, most of whom are ethnic Turks, have been in a dispute over the appointment of Bulgaria's chief mufti.
The courts have appointed a triumvirate of three Muslim leaders to govern in the chief mufti's place, who control the religious teaching in Muslim schools and the community's considerable assets.
Former chief mufti Nedim Gendzhev has begun a campaign focusing on the triumvirate's connections with religious groups in Saudi Arabia, revealing that one of the three, Fikri Sali, had traveled there in July as the guest of Al-Waqf Al-Islami, a charity that promotes Wahhabi Islam.

hat tip Daily Alert

218 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:44:03pm

Q 213

Indeed. The painting, a Michaelangelo I think, hangs in a basillica in Florence.

In the pure islam that imams so crave for, all depictions of the human form are 'haraam'. That will leave the meaningless and repetitive doodling on mosque walls, as the only art that is permitted.

There is no room for complacency. Time is short as the islamic project in the West is taking place at great speed. Once the muslim population reaches a critical stage, there will be no turning back the tide.

219 nikita  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:45:30pm

Netherlands Calls for Hizballah to be Placed on EU Terrorism List
Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot called for the Lebanese Hizballah organization to be placed on the EU's list of terrorist organizations in a bid to dry up its financing from Europe. The Netherlands has drawn a distinction between Hizballah's civilian and armed wings, but Bot told parliament they were both dedicated to the same ends. The Netherlands currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU. (AFP/Yahoo)

hat tip Daily Alert

220 nikita  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:46:46pm

Egypt Rejects Charges IAEA Chief Helping It with Secret Nuclear Program (AFP/Yahoo)
Egypt's ambassador to the UN atomic agency, Ramzy Ezzeldin Ramzy, blasted as "totally baseless" a French newspaper report that the Egyptian head of the agency, Mohamed ElBaradei, was helping Cairo hide a secret nuclear program.
The French newspaper Liberation, citing unnamed Western diplomats, reported that the now dismantled Libyan nuclear program "had Egyptian links."
Libya had in its nuclear program "worked not only for itself but also, secretly, for the Egyptians," Liberation said.

221 traveler  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 2:52:07pm

The MSM is now blaming BLOGGERS for the erroneous exit polls?

Those numbskulls have no SHAME!

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

222 EE  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:01:21pm

#219 nikita
It is tragic that Europe has so far refused to place Hizballah on the list of terrorist organizations, and refused to make illegal the financing of Hizballah.

Hizballah is deeply involved in being an arm of Iran in terrorism, including training and arming terrorists that may go on jihad anywhere against the West.

If Europe continues to pretend that Hizballah is not a terrorist organization, they will find themselves victimized by the very organization that they are helping to finance. A jihaditerrorist victory anywhere emboldens jihaditerrorists everywhere. When is there going to be solidarity in the fight against jihaditerrorism?

223 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:07:37pm

215 Ethelred

I ask once again in this forum: How can we harness the power of this and other blogs to force the MSM to begin to expose Islam?

The Daily Telegraph was one major paper that ran a series of articles on islam by Will Cummins. Cummins, very skillfully in my opinion, exposed the vile nature of islam. And here skill was essential, as at this moment in time and despite the beheadings etc, the public is not yet ready to fully comprehend the nature of islam. A very similar situation was prevalent even on LGF, some 3 years ago. A poster under the nick, "Nastification Agenda", clearly spelled out the nature of islam. He was not given much credence at the time.

I mention the Telegraph, as it is a mainline paper that exposed islam. Monitoring the letter respones to the article, I could see that the responders were in the main, highly critical of Cummins, and for several reasons. Very few, for obvious reasons of personal safety, supported Cummins, as their names would be available for all to note. To the Editor though, it would appear that the series of articles by Cummins, had no traction with public at large, and he was in danger of alienating his paying readership. End of story. Cummins was outed by the Guardian. He was fired from his job with the British Council. So far no news of his being re-engaged by the DT, as this would be the fairest thing to do. But here again the DT is intimidated, as it received no immediate support for the articles it was brave enough to run.

When articles of the sort are run by the DT or any major paper, it must is incumbent on us all to inundate the newspaper with our letters of support. The MSM like any private or public organisation, cannot continue in the face of what it perceives public hostility, if the only letters they receive are from islamists or their apologists. That is the lesson of the DT's foray into exposing islam.

I await your response

224 Q  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:16:05pm

DPP111 (#218):

In the pure islam that imams so crave for, all depictions of the human form are 'haraam'. That will leave the meaningless and repetitive doodling on mosque walls, as the only art that is permitted.

To be fair (and why not?), some of those, as well as Arabic calligraphy can be quite beautiful. And the Persian miniature painting is an art form unto itself -- even though, significantly, it exists only by virtue of finding a loophole in Islamic ban on representational art: it is highly stylized, and thus not "realistic".

That doesn't cloud my judgement in the least, of course. Islam must be destroyed, or at the very least ruthlessly contained and quarantined. Let us marvel at its surviving artifacts long after it is safely confined to the pages of history books -- like we do with the art (some of it, again, quite impressive) of another civilization built almost entirely on ritualized slaughter, the Aztec empire.

225 Mentat  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:25:01pm

Hi Ethelred:

As far as spreading the message about Islam goes, the best way to make an end run around the MSM is to borrow the techniques of spam artists. If the spam artists can send millions of people all sorts of crap, you could send millions of people information about Islam.

If you don't want to do something like that (and I can understand why you wouldn't), the second best option is to do something like Robert Spencer, write books and articles, create a website, appear in the media as often as possible and constantly mention the website.

There is also the guerilla theatre method too. You appear at as many public events as possible, draw attention to yourself through some outrageous device and advertise the website at the same time.

Sincerely,

Mentat

226 Q  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:29:23pm
I ask once again in this forum: How can we harness the power of this and other blogs to force the MSM to begin to expose Islam?

To what DP111 said, I would add that we should also relentlessly call our political leaders and representatives on their bullshit and (in)action vis-a-vis Islam, the Saudi entity and "third-world" immigration (both legal and not). On all levels.

And that includes, maybe first and foremost, W -- now that he is safely ensconed in the White Tent.

227 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:34:37pm

224 Q

To be fair (and why not?), some of those, as well as Arabic calligraphy can be quite beautiful. And the Persian miniature painting is an art form unto itself -- even though, significantly, it exists only by virtue of finding a loophole in Islamic ban on representational art: it is highly stylized, and thus not "realistic".

As you note, they are Persian miniatures. Iran had a sophisticated civilisation prior to the imposition of islam. In the period when islam was imposing itself, that was when art and literature could still survive. Soon enough though, all such 'depravities' were stopped.

But they ara all minor points. We can, as you write

. Let us marvel at its surviving artifacts long after it is safely confined to the pages of history books -- like we do with the art (some of it, again, quite impressive) of another civilization built almost entirely on ritualized slaughter, the Aztec empire.
228 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:38:05pm

#223 DP111

I have seen you recently on JihadWatch, yes?

I am new to the blogosphere, and am not a junkie in that respect. I used to spend a lot of time at JihadWatch, and Robert Spencer and I have talked ad nauseum about the problem of cracking the MSM, culminating with his post on the anniversary of JW.

If the power of the blogosphere lies in the fact that its 'lizards' immediately contact in whatever manner possible the doer of the stupidity of the moment, then I say let the torrents of email and FAXes hit O'Reilly, Hannity, The New York Times, Newsweek, US News, etc. Spencer does not think this will work, and considers it 'pestering', but then he doesn't know what to do either. But this kind of attacking seems to work for some kinds of things. The 'retail' model of putting up yet another site might make me feel good, but seems like spitting into the wind.

As I you may know, my main efforts right now are collecting and indexing Hugh Fitzgerald's writings on our site (we need readers for the subject index), and helping Ali Sina with the anti-Islam 101. The issue then becomes distribution of that book, but if it is offered on LGF for example, I am preaching to the converted. I want to say, "steal this book" and say that copying and giving it away is the way to spread the word. My goal is for 10 million (why not think big?) to have it in their household, and hence for the outcry against Islam to come from the bottom up, and be something the politicians cannot ignore.

What does Charles think? I emailed him directly, but he must have been swamped by the election. A few people have responded directly to me, and maybe some kind of consensus can be formed and actually acted upon.

Ethelred

229 abu_garcia  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:39:35pm

#223 DP111

When articles of the sort are run by the DT or any major paper, it must is incumbent on us all to inundate the newspaper with our letters of support. The MSM like any private or public organisation, cannot continue in the face of what it perceives public hostility, if the only letters they receive are from islamists or their apologists. That is the lesson of the DT's foray into exposing islam.

Excellent point, I will remember and do as you suggest. I would add that the replies should be as objective as possible while being blunt about the problem so that they will be publishable.

230 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:39:37pm

As an afterthought. Just a reminder to any Dutch or Scandinavians reading this. The person/persons implicated in the murder of Van Gogh, were not influenced by a perverse reading of the koran. They were doing exactly what Mohammed their prophret did in similar circumstances. He sent assasins to murder a woman poet who ridiculed him and his beliefs in verse.

231 Anonymous Al  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:46:49pm

WHAT IF

the

assassin

had been a Muslim from

Bangladesh

[Link: in.news.yahoo.com...]

instead of

Morocco?

...

[Link: www.famouspainter.com...]

232 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:48:26pm

DP111, abu_garcia

Before the enraged blogospheric population overflows the inbox of a target publication, let's think about it a bit and develop a plan, a methodology for the long run. We have to overcome the PC of Islam as a 'religion', and the squeamishness of people to criticize another 'culture'.

Our efforts will be the equivalent of opening up another front in the war to preserve our civilization, and we need the average, heretofore ignorant (a fact, not an insult) person to realize the danger to the life of their children a grandchildren. I kept telling Ali Sina that every fact about Islam must be aimed at scaring the living daylights out of the mothers and father all across America. We see it, they don't.

I just wanted to start the discuss on what can we do with the power that we find that we now have?

233 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 3:54:04pm

229 abu garcia

Dr Clifford, a vicar in rural England, ran foul of the LLL MSM and Muslim organisations, when he wrote and published an article in the Church Times (his own Church paper), of the true nature of islam. He was vilified to the extent that the police were threatening to prosecute him. His case was highlighted in Dhimmi Watch. I suggested in Dhimmi Watch, that we all write letters of support to Dr Clarke. Dr Clarke was inundated with letters of support from all over the world. So great was the response, that it energised Dr Clarke, and left the police, the LLL media, backtracking. Dr Clarke continues now with his campoaign to free muslims from the scourge of islam and bring them to the peace of the Church.

I quote this as an example of what we can do.

As for the DT, it is not late to energise them again. It is the only major English language paper that is sympathetic to our cause. The murder of Van Gogh offers us the opportunity to ask the DT of what happened to Mr Cummins. To support the DT in the articles they published, as they are a useful reminder to what is happening in the West, the slow aphyxiation of freedom of expression. Van Gighs murder illustrates this in the most brutal form imaginable.

A letter of 100 words max, is about the most that most editors will consider for publication.

234 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 4:01:19pm

#233 DP111

This is a great start, an explicit effort, the beginning of the attack from our side. Islam must be put on the defensive so that they will be spending their time explaining why we should give it the time of day, why they deserve more protections and rights here in America than they allow other religions in Saudi Arabia, why their now exposed hypocrisy should be believed, and why Islam should not be linked with Nazism.

Now, I just need to find the email address of the Daily Telegram...

This is the first night of the rest of our free lives!

Ethelred

235 Mentat  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 4:02:42pm

Ethelred:

Did you notice how sympathetic Google is to Jihadwatch. When you do a search on jihad, Jihadwatch is the very first search result. That is not an accident!

236 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 4:04:08pm

232 ethelred

Far be it for me to suggest that in any communication with a paper such as the DT, we flood them with invective. As Abu gracia pointed out, a short and reasoned approach is the best, with a little bit of flattery thrown in for good measure.

As for the flood of such letters, I think that most papers will be flattered with the response. It is good for sales and brings in additional revenue from advertisers.

I must head off to bed. I was up all night last night because you Americans couldnt make up your minds till early in the morn.

Anyway, its been a good so far as GWB is in. Van Gogh's murder though, does attenuate somewhat the elation due to GWB's victory.

237 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 4:09:45pm

Mentat,

Google very heavily weights links to the site in question. NoJihad actually helps JW when I put up Hugh articles with links back to the original article. The anti-Islam community is all linked to each other, and JW links to NoJihad which links to FaithFreedom which links to JihadWatch.

My desire is to reach the person who has not up to this point done much thinking about Islam, much less realizes that it is a death cult.

DP111 is on to something, and other people have emailed me directly with other ideas. Let's let this percolate and maybe something really strong can come out of the discussion.

238 Ethelred  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 4:12:37pm

DP111

Last licks, and I too must leave. I wasn't suggestion invective, but just saying that before 10,000 emails appear in DT's inbox that we think about what we want to say.

Also, another thought: we Americans did not like it one bit when the Guardian intruded. Would DT mind many, many letters from across the pond?

239 DP111  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 4:21:28pm

238 Ethelred,

What the Guardian was did was stupid, as it is considered very bad taste to interfere in the elections of a fellow democracy, particulary that of a good friend and ally.

The DT would be delighted to receive emails from America. A few emails would be good for a start, otherwise they may begin to think of a concerted and organised campaign. That would be no good. A few letters, say about a dozen from LGFers, in the context of Van Gogh's murder and the implications for freedom of expression in the West... Cummins articles highlighted this danger etc..

I do post occasionally on Jihad and Dhimmi watch.

240 Joep  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 4:28:57pm

To everyone thinking the average Dutch person should blame himself, you have the false impression that we too live in a free society.

We do not.

Parties that even mentioned problems with immigrants were simply forbidden. This didn't stop until a Left-wing intellectual wrote an article "the multicultural drama" about 5 years ago. After that, some free speech regarding immigrants is allowed, though people where put in jail yesterday for shouting "Muslims, parasites".

Theo van Gogh himself has had numerous legal attacks for speaking out against immigration.

Our biggest anti-immigration party was the one lead by Pim Fortuyn. He was predicted to become prime minister, the same day he was shot.

In neighbouring Belgium, the biggest anti-immigration party, Vlaams Blok, did not get forbidden. Now they are the biggest party in the polls (with 27%). The result: all the other parties join in a "cordon sanitaire". They will not form coalitions with "the racists" so the result of voting for them is a coalition from mildy-left to extreme-communist nuts.

The last column written by Theo van Gogh was about his (not elected, appointed by the queen btw) Labour Party mayor Job Cohen. Guess what: the bloody bastard took the initiative for the demonstration yesterday! Of course he mentioned "this cannot happen in the Netherlands". After that, he rushed of to drink tea with muslim foundations because they were to fear attacks from white Dutch racists. There weren't any, of course. There are, however, lots of commentators arguing that "killing is never a good thing, but Theo just went too far". Right.

Really, there is not much choice here.

Question: is it normal for right-wing US columnists to have 24-hour protection?

241 pwinWHOH  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 4:56:32pm

Based on the initial story, do you think they (The Dutch) might learn about the WOT the United States is fighting, and forget the pacifistic wacked out UN Nutcases? Hey folks, this is real, and the sooner you face it, and face the truth, the sooner you'll deal with the reality, and maybe even ---join us---?

242 Brenda  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 5:20:05pm

It's easy to be critical of the Netherlands and their permissiveness toward Muslim immigrants. But the US government does no better, and immigration from Islamic nations continues as if there had never been a terrorist attack on 911.

[Link: www.cis.org...]

Continuing immigration, plus a high birth rate means an exploding Arab-Muslim population in this country. Arab enclaves in areas like Detroit and Florida create handy staging grounds for another attack and are valuable places for terrorists to blend in. Furthermore, a growing Arab presence will gradually decrease support in Washington for Israel.

There is no right to immigrate. It's only political correctness that keeps the doors open to likely enemies.

243 Q  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 5:31:07pm

Brenda:

I intend to be a single-issue voter, if there is a politician who takes the necessary stand.

I guess it's good news, and hopefully a sign of the public waking up, that Proposition 200 has passed -- despite McCain's opposition, which significantly dropped him in my eyes.

244 Q  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 5:33:10pm
I intend to be a single-issue voter, if there is a politician who takes the necessary stand.

That being said, there is unfortunately a significant likelyhood that such a politician would be a buchanan/le-pen of some sort. Not good.

245 PDM  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 5:55:32pm

#213 Q,

I seem to remember Muslims raising shit about some fanciful 19th century European depiction of Mo surrounded by naked broads. There was a LGF thread about that.

Oh yea, it was this one (or something like that).

246 RayA  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 5:57:29pm

Another testament as to what happens when you let Immigration go out of control... I say this as an Immigrant myself whose application was in play for 10 years and went through a rigorous screening process, integrated now into American society, paying taxes and most importantly:

VOTING FOR DUBBYA!!!

247 Q  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 5:58:32pm

PDM:

Heh. Yep, that's the one.

248 On the Mark  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 6:02:35pm

A worldwide stand against Islam is becoming the only choice. This will not change unless and until the leaders of Islam stand up against violence, and stand up for tolerance of others who do not share their religious beliefs and values. It's either that or ultimately total destruction for the religion.

249 Brenda  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 6:02:58pm

Q --

I cannot fathom Sen. McCain, a man who sacrificed seven years of this life in a Vietnamese prison for this country, yet is a total doormat for Mexico and the open-borders crowd here. He is a poster boy for the corruption that being a big cheese in Washington can create.

Do you know about Numbers USA? Their website has a feature which allows the user to send faxes to Congress on immigration matters. I regard them as very effective.

[Link: www.numbersusa.com...]

250 ibu guru  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 6:13:28pm

#20 scoreboard44

How the hell did this happen.

It happened because The Netherlands has been notorious for allowing illegal immigration. It has also been a major staging area for illegal entry into UK for many years -- especially favored by Islamics and Chinese.

Note these people have been caught before and let go:

Kruimel said the suspects, whose identities were not released, were detained and released during an October 2003 investigation into a potential terrorist threat.

The Dutch have not been serious until very recently about protecting their borders, screening potential immigrants prior to letting them in, demanding self-suffiiency and assimilation.

The US (and other countries) are in danger because they make excuses for illegal behavior -- "they're poor," "they just want work," "every culture has value," ad nauseam. Look at the new threat uncovered in Spain. Appeasement -- of illegal aliens as much as terrorists/Islamists -- enables greater destructive forces.

The Netherlands has only recently beefed up their immigration laws and enforcement. Prop. 200 passed in Arizona. Clearly there is a demand in the US and other countries to "clean up" and stop supporting lawbreakers & law flouters of various stripes. We need to clean up our immigration laws, accept only those who will make a positive contribution to our respective countries, and stringently enforce immigration laws. We can clean out a lot of criminals, social-services leeches, and terrorists by deporting all immigration-law violators.

251 ibu guru  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 7:11:37pm

#205 ethelred

Publish an e-book. Sell it (or offer free downloads if you really want to get out) from the site. Link/offer it through e-book wholesalers. Offer a link here (if it's OK w/Charles -- not speaking for Charles, I suspect a number of lgfers would want to access it).

I've been looking into publishing e-books myself, and there is a lot of free advice on how-to on the net. Google/Ask Jeeves.

252 bronteboy  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 7:16:56pm

Regrettable as it is the murder of Mr Van Gogh combined with that of Pim Fortuyn should, hopefully, galvanize the Dutch into action.

Unlike the French who delight in abstract notions and all manner of silliness masquerading as sophistication, the Dutch are a sensible grounded people who, though seduced by PC notions over the past three decades into a all-cultures are-equal public policy delusion ( as have almost all Western countries ), have the national character to take firm steps to halt the rot and reverse misguided policies.

This is the high water mark for the Dutch. The tide will now be stemmed.

253 doubledip  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 7:57:08pm

#51


Another Dutch newspaper, the Telegraaf daily, carried a large color photograph of Van Gogh's body with a knife protruding from his chest under the headline "Butchered."

It's here.

Animals!

254 hector  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 9:38:32pm

Let's hope the Dutch people take action now against all muslims - these people should be eliminated or deported to Sharia Land. Here in the UK we should also move to repatriate these scum - islam's sick culture is all too apparent here and is completely unwelcome.
Edgeware Road would be a good place to start.

255 Cornish Intifada  Wed, Nov 3, 2004 10:55:21pm

#30 Poitiers - Lepanto

Interesting synopsis - the three steps to Invasion

This has happened previously in history - the end of the roman empire...This is what happened in Britain. The British started to invite in the anglo saxons as mercenaries in the 440s to help them against invasion from the picts and Irish. ( this is the silent stage).

Then there was a lot of whining about how the saxons wanted more land, gold etc ( this is the whining stage) this happened from 449 AD

Then there was the genocidal stage which lasted from AD 455 when the saxons went on the warpath until our very own times( the violent/genocide/conquest) stage.

Read any history about Dark ages Britain and you will see it. I am sure these things happened with the Goths, Huns etc...

Today we could do much worse than heed the words of a British priest and historian Gildas, who wrote around 540AD. In his work, “On the Ruin and Conquest of Britain” he lamented the weakness, cowardice and folly of the country’s rulers as successive waves of foreign invaders and immigrants plunged the land into the black night of a Dark Age that lasted hundreds of years.
The British were an easy target for Pictish and Irish raiders, striking from the sea, eager for pillage, rape, slaughter and slaves. “Then all the councillors, together with that proud tyrant Gurthrigern [Vortigern], the British king, were so blinded, that, as a protection to their country, they sealed its doom by inviting in among them (like wolves into the sheep-fold), the fierce and impious Saxons, a race hateful both to God and men, to repel the invasions of the northern nations". At first the invitation to these immigrants seemed a sensible move. It is sometimes good policy to set a thief to catch a thief and the Germanics were the best sailors of the age, well suited to the interception and destruction of sea-borne raiders. To start with their numbers were small.
Tucked away on an offshore island these few immigrants could have seemed no danger to Britain – and indeed to be a positive asset. But they were soon enough reinforced by what Gildas described as a “larger draft of satellite dogs” that “fixed their fearful claws upon the eastern part of the island”. Hengist had formed his own assessment of the weakness and “worthlessness of the Britons, and the richness of the land”. He sent off to his own country for more men.The British Chronicle continues: “Hengist said to Vortigern;”Take my advice, and you will never fear conquest by any man or any people. I will invite my son and his cousin, fine warriors, to fight against the Irish”.
Immigrants arrived in greater quantity, family groups now, and by this time the British were starting to become seriously concerned: “but the barbarians multiplied their numbers and the British could not feed them. When they demanded the promised food and clothing the British said, “we cannot feed and clothe you. Go away for we do not need your help!” Ethnic tension increased, the immigrants complained that “their monthly deliveries were inadequately paid; deliberately exaggerating individual incidents, they threatened to break the treaty and waste the whole island, unless ampler payments were heaped upon them”. Romanised civilisation was at an end and brutal ethnic conflict ebbed back and forth across the land for centuries. Ultimately British language and culture were expunged from the lowlands of Britain. It was a cultural and ethnic genocide. Dr Mark Thomas of University College London is in no doubt, based on genetic research, that “England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the Continent after the Romans left”. We do know that the very word for a native Briton, a “Welshman”, meant foreigner, and/or slave. A foreignor/slave in one's own country!! Just like these Dutch!! - The three steps are all there Poitiers - Lepanto!!

256 Nederlander  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 12:39:37am

beniyyar #29

the Dutch are not anti Semites. There is some truth in the cliche that the Dutch are a tolerant people. Jews have lived in Holland before WW II in relative peace, without pogroms etc. And there where many Jews in Holland. Our language is full of Hebrew words like 'Jatten' (from jod, which means to steal) etc. The common second name of Amsterdam is 'Mokum', which means 'the place' or 'Jeruzalem'. It says something of how the jews felt to live in Holland.

But we are not warriors.

We have been too naive in letting so many muslims come to our country. We thought it would be no problem.

But I still have hope that the majority of our Arab population well reject the fascism of the Jihadists.

257 hector  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 1:05:29am

#256 nederlander

Don't make assumptions that muslims have a good side because they don't - assume the worst and take preventative action. Western complacency is thought of as a weakness by those primitive cowards. Islam has nothing to contribute to the World except violence and strife - get rid of them now.

258 Earl  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 3:43:40am

This just in from one of my Dutch rellies- I don't think that he entirely 'gets it' yet...

"Yep. Morons (ie., the islamists) haven't figured out the concept of freedom of speech. It appears that they believe that freedom of speech also applies to the bullet.


"It boils down to the fact that the guy that was shot is a producer that recently made a movie on how some islamist (sic) females were mistreated by their radical (sic) husbands. I guess some radicals felt that they needed to quelch that voice ... Actually, the guy that shot van Gogh was a known islamist radical that had ties to Al Qaida and indirectly also to the train bombing
in Spain.


"It's all too fucked up for words."

259 DP111  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 4:09:46am

As mentioned, the DT is still the one major English language newspaper that is very concerned with the threat to Western civilisation.

Here are a series of articles which are well worth a read.

If voters realise that the Tories don't know what to think about Islamist terror, they will suffer the same fate. Don't imagine that this thought has not occurred to Tony Blair.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Sufficient reasons are here why the DT should be encouraged and supported in their efforts. A few emails from us, how much we value their articles will be sufficient. It is not even necessary that they are published, just so that the Editor is aware that a body of support exists, if he needs it. And need it, he will.

260 Jed  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 5:32:05am

Russians used to say that American capitalism would sell them the rope with which they will hang Americans.

The Dutch have given Muslims the rope for free. And so has the rest of Europe.

261 keyword  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 8:48:25am

The movie Theo directed got him killed can be downloaded here:
[Link: www.pipp.nl...]
It may take you a few attempts to download-I tried three times before success.
If someone would like to mirror it, should me an email at keyword@myrealbox.com

262 keyword  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 8:51:38am

Sorry, it's actually here:
[Link: www.pipp.nl...]

9 men -sorry, terrorist bastards- have been arrested in this murder case so far and are to be arraigned tomorrow. Police are suggesting ties to Al Quada. Thos F-ing bastards! Why Theo? A peaceful man...

263 www.gunzilla.net  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 9:25:31am

Thou shalt not kill

Hi everyone, news from the Netherlands. The following videoclip (RealPlayer) shows a reporter trying to stop the police from erasing the message Thou Shalt Not Kill. An artist painted it on a wall close to a mosk after that muslim thug slaughtered Van Gogh like a pig. The mosk complained about that biblical text being so close to them and the police rolled out to take it off. The brave reporter stood in front of it and said the police would have to arrest him first. They did. They also tried to prevent this footage to come out. But hey, we're unstoppable now. We have the internet.

[Link: www.noord.kw.nl...]

264 keyword  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 9:44:44am

I hope the situation escalates to mahem in the streets, so that the murder of Theo van Gogh is not forgotten in two weeks...

265 Nederlander  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 10:19:29am

Gunzilla, I can't open it. Can you put some pictures of it on your own weblog, I want to see it.

266 keyword  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 10:30:54am

Right-click the link and 'Save target as', then open with your media player

267 piglet  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 1:14:02pm

Two knives left in his body, one pining a note to it. But see how long it took the media to say what the cause of the killing was. READ THE DAMN NOTE!

268 yesman  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 7:33:27pm

I have a suggestion for ending the acts of these whacko muslims

yesman blog

269 Uncle Joe  Thu, Nov 4, 2004 10:42:28pm

"But we are not warriors.

We have been too naive in letting so many muslims come to our country. We thought it would be no problem.

But I still have hope that the majority of our Arab population well reject the fascism of the Jihadists."


Nederlander, you sound like a good guy, and I'm sorry to say this, but your culture is as good as dead. Kick dirt on the Little Mermaid, she's done.

Europe in general has no will or desire to defend itself. There will be a little fuss in Denmark about Van Gogh's murder but your country will be back to grovelling before the Muslim horde within a week.

Move to America.

270 Nederlander  Fri, Nov 5, 2004 4:10:40am

Uncle joe, #269

You don't know what you're talking about. First of all: Holland is not Denmark.

There's is a problem with Islam, but Muslims are still human beings. I know from experience that many of them are nice and kind people: and that's our hope.

There was also a difference between Nazism and the Germans 60 years ago

Gunzilla #263

About the artist. So it was in Rotterdam.

[Link: www.volkskrant.nl...]
>

271 Rose  Fri, Nov 5, 2004 5:21:31pm

I will not trust any muslim-that is until the leaders of this sick and evil cult prove that they are not sick and evil and the only way they have any hope, is in denouncing these terrorists and handing them over for execution to the civil authoriities or carrying out the same themselves and issueing some fatwahs againts these thugs.
Still HOW CAN WE TRUST THEMt now we understand- they will follow the tried and tue path from one of their Hadiths, hunker down for 10 years whilst they breed up sufficient numbers like the bloody rabbits and foxes here in Australia then destroy the very people who gave them a refuge.

FOR ANY JEW HATERS ON LINE
COMPARE HOW THE JEWS HAVE ADAPTED-HOW MANY THEY HAVE KILLED, HAVE THEY OUTBRED THE LOCALS ?HAVE THEY TAKEN OVER YOUR GOVERMENT? HOW MANY WHITE WOMAN RAPED BY JEWS? HAVE THEY ASKED FOR SPECIAL CONSIDERATION- EG WE CLOSE ALL OUR SHOPS AND BUSINESS ON THEIR SABBETH!!! Do they complain that Christmas decorations offend their sensibilties, that their children not learn of Christianity.
DO THEY DEMAND THAT WE ALL CONVERT TO JUDAISM AND IF NOT THREATEN US WITH DEATH.? DO THEY DEMAND THAT ALL WOMEN VEIL THEIR HEADS? DO THEY TRY TO DENY YOU THE RIGHT TO READ AND VIEW WHAT YOU WISH?
now ask the same of
ISLAM

who would you prefer as your next door neighbour?

272 Uncle Joe  Fri, Nov 5, 2004 6:03:47pm

Ned #270
I never said Holland was Denmark - but it might as well be. Madrid, Malmo, Lyon...Europe is laying back and taking it from the violent, imported Muslim culture and that's never going to change no matter how many people the newcomers kill. Europeans don't have it in them to defend themselves.


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