Kvisiling (sic) knew his people

Bloody hell- it just keeps getting worse.

This motherfucking leftist asswipes really want to get it on...so be it.

EU and the LLL; latest champions of the "Blame the Victim" movement

errr, "these"

“This in a city where Muslim demonstrations take place on a regular basis, and include signs and banners bearing hateful, barbaric slogans.”

So, in other words...please don't commemorate an historical night of unprovoked anti-semitic violence, because you might provoke another Kristallnacht from the goons who go around calling for anti-semitic violence. When the EU becomes Muslim, the Norwegians will be the first in line to help their new Muslim overlords pack the Jews off. Bastards.

Leaves me speechless with rage.

Jah, de Jews bad, Arafat goot!

Wow, in a day when Hitler's heir is buried with full European state honors, we continue to see deeper and deeper into the dark soul of Europe where the world's oldest hatred is coming back up for air.

Depravity, thine name is Europe.

I would like to state that I now unequivacly endorse the application of the Bigel principle to Norway as well as to France, Germany, and the non-flemish portions of the Netherlands.

OT: Check out this video of street fighting in Fallujah:

[Link: tv.reuters.com...]

Events like this give me the chills. It's us or them. We can have no common ground with evil.

#11 thanks for the laci peterson update

ben sharmuta

WHAT!?!?!?

Jews not being allowed to mark the anniversary of Kristalnacht??!?

Am I in bizarro world??!?

This is like the US forbidding African-Americans from commemorating Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

What is this f-ed up world coming to??!

Clean up on 11

# 13: Link does not work well. Scroll down on the screen until you see "Fierce Urban Fighting, Raw Footage" on the right of the screen. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Ok a little more info.
The organisers of this is the SOS racism of Norway. This protest has a wider message of anti racism with banners such as "end discrimination against muslims now".
In these protests you have violent anarchists and leftwingers. With the jews in this event there was also a far right party who support Israel. The police feared (and rightly so because leftfacists had threatened to find the right wingers and attack them) that these leftextremists would attack the jews and their far right friends if they brought a Israeli flag and so they was told to leave.
This is of course wrong, Sos racism have no buiseness telling jews how to commorate this and the police should have removed the extreme left.

Sorry for my bad english, I am drunk right now ; )

Seems like Europe never learns from it's mistakes. Some of the events occurring in Europe today are reminiscent of events that occurred prior to WII. To a lesser degree, (I hope), the same things are occurring in this country. Afafish is good, the only elected democracy in the mid east is bad. What have we become?

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’
-Unknown-

Descent of Arafat..

This guy is said to Arafat's uncle, or very close relative.

He was especially chummy and helpful to der fehrer around the time Hitler was deciding once and for all what to do about the Jews. What I heard is that Hitler wanted to deport them but the Mufti persuaded him to kill them all. The Holocaust followed.

If true, it puts Arafat as the second generation in the final solution. Arafat, then, is closely associated with the Holocaust, in deed and in blood.

17 Expat Dutch

Apologies about the clean up, good stuff

#19 Clean up:

My bust, the quote is by English philosopher Edmund Burke

In other news, France stated that veterns of the Omaha Beach landings would no longer be welcome at D-Day
memorials.

#20 bigel

The nazis considered the Norwegians to be honorary Aryans. Sixty years ago the Norwegians rejected naziism, however, now they have embraced it.

#20 bigel

"Hey, with the blond hair, blue eyes and square heads/jaws, the Norwegians look like pretty convincing Nazis."

Thanks for telling me how Nazis are supposed to look like... must be the genes, the race... right?

I'm sure the Norwegian posters here will appreciate the clarification.

One more European Jewish story that people should know about, in addition to Arafat's Hitler connection (above).

The story of Marek Schwartz is widely retold. He was a Jewish Austrian artillery commander in WWI in Jerusalem under the command of the Turks. As the Brits entered the city the Turks commanded Schwartz to blast the Dome of the Rock.

Schwartz refused, a la 'Is Paris Burning', and gave himself up to the Brits rather than destroy the Temple Mount. So the Muslims have a Jew to thank that their Dome of the Rock is there today.

I can't believe this. I don't want to believe this.

This ought to be front-page news.

I have blonde hair, I am Norwegian, and im even a nationalist, but I support Israel, strange isnt it Bigel?
There are like 30 active nazi's in Norway, it is unfair to brand us nazi's even if the left try to brainwash the people to support palestine (70% of journalists vote red).
That died when we executed quisling.

Unlike Vichy, Quisling was depised in Norway. He never had much popular support. Sure, some Norwegians collaborated with the Nazis, but so many more did not. Those who lived close to fjords spied on German ships and submarines, and gave invaluable help to the British (remember the Tirpitz).

Norwegians were truly dismayed when Hamsun, their hero (Nobel Prize of Literature) spoke out for the Germans. They felt truly betrayed.

I have the highest respect for the Norwegian people. They sheltered many members of the German resistance, including the later chancellor Willy Brandt. They helped so many Jews escape to Sweden.

And just because many of the look like the Nazis wanted Aryans to look does not make them "pretty convincing Nazis".

Or does the ugly guy with the crooked nose right out of the Stürmer make "a convincing Jew" just because the Nazis thought he should look that way?

You made a racist remark but I'm not holding my breath to see you apologizing to the Norwegians, of course.

This is the same phenomena we saw at SFSU last week when campussy police asked the College Republicans to move along even though the out-of-control Calistinians were causing all the trouble.

These fraidy-cat officers aren't really up to confronting the bad guys. They really just want to stroll around like badasses hoping their appearance alone intimidates people into behaving. When that doesn't work, they take the path of least resistance and appeal to the more civilized party that is less likely to get in their face.

First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I am not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I am not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I am not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me.

-Pastor Niemoller (1946)

#32 mich-again

I think you have the right of it. The police, in the end, want to go home safe. So when things start spiraling, they ask the law-abiding to leave, and defuse the situation.

This isn't how it ought to be, but it's how it goes. Tiresome, isn't it? But this, this incident is insane. It's the perfect example of disgusting irony.

he was surrealist--full of inconsistencies--when he murdered jewish children he kind of giggled ironically--you know--jolly joking full of yocks--are these people the descendants of vikings--more like that pussy kirkkegarde--odin is spinning in valhalla--sheesh

Please forgive me for my ignorance, but why is Kristallnacht a celebration? Why would Jews want to celebrate this day? I am missing something here, because I would think that Jews would feel very intimidated by the mere idea of others celebrating this horrible event. What am I missing?

Then they came for the Catholics, kquote>

Not as long as The Pope want to appease.

Been in this issue, the Middle East Issue... for 25? years or so and have watched the slow but steady uninterruptred rise in Antisemetism in the World.

There WAS a time when Jews were encouraged NOT to talk about Antisememtism, NOT to refer to it, pretend it wasnt happening,& DENY it was happening. I saw what was building and I refused to keep quiet about it no matter who yelled at me, and what they said to me.

I was called names, I was told I was TOO EMOTIONAL, I was told, when talking about this that I was "PARANOID"...Jews usually shut up when the "P" Word is used. I would not shut up. I knew it was nothin but a ploy TO silence us on the subject.

What can I say about Norway and THIS PARTICULAR discusting thing that weve been reading about? JEWS...NOT Welcome at Memorial March of Kristalnight? With this incident I actually DONT HAVE WORDS to describe what I think this particular inicident is. This is SO BAD in its own way that...that Im at a loss.

This particular story will stay with me..stand out in the flood of Antismemtic Incidents and Attitudes. Ill add this to Leon Klinghoeffer murder(just got to me more than anything) and of course the murders at the Olympics, the murder of 1000 year old Hindu Statues (another incredible show of hidious intollerance) and the over kill slaughter of Van Gogh. Ill add to my short list of abominations, the Passover Attacks in Israel by the Pals..and all the kids and particularly pregant woman who were TARGETED by the bastards there.. plus the beheadings.

#29, #30

In addition, the majority of Norwegians elected the officials who are putting their anti-Semitism on full display. This is not to say that ALL Norwegians are anti-Semitic, NorwegianRight. But there have to be more than a few Norwegians that will tolerate these anti-Semitic staements and actions from officials that they elect or apointees of officials they elect.

One other thing. There are a lot of American LLLs that deny the islamicization of Europe. Here is proof.

Oh yes, hating Jews with such a passion.

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

That is fine Bigel, I probably despise the leftfacists more than you do. I have read you before and know where you stand. It is true that many norwegian (left) hate Usa and Israel with a passion, but with the media we have it is not surprising. Believe me I have had quite a few arguments supporting Bush and Israel ; )

Bigel,

Are you going to tell me to FOAD if I say that our German and Norwegian friends just feel like you painted with too wide a brush as they are here representing the sane part of their country and should be embraced as fellow sane people?

Hopefully there are a few sane people left who are willing to speak out in the name of sanity. I do recall that somethings have all the earmarks of pre-1933 Nazification of Germany. Now it is the Islamification.

Fascist is fascist whatever the guise. But, interesting how Hitler was actually a militant socialist (National Socialist Party Duetchland) which is a "left" leaning ideology. so, it should come as no surprise that the left/socialists of Europe are actually closer to their Nazi roots than the right.

Crazy

#37 e c

It is not a celebration. It is a rememberance. Like Holocaust Rememberance Day.

Ah, our old friend Terje Roed-Larsen, the man who single handedly invented the Jenin "Massacre". Here he is handing the famous Red Binder over to Abbas.

Good old compassionate Eurorabia, I am beginning to think that many of these super smart Nazis err I mean Europeans would have been a lot happier if we would have never interfered with old Adolph. It is as if they never took those brown shirts off. Gute nacht Krankenschwester, (good night nurse)

Bigel (#46):

The post is utterly worthless.

It doesn't contain one word about the muslims. So, yes it is.

And also this caused outrage in the general population and with the politicians.
The story here really is that SOS Racism have highjacked this day for their agenda and decided that anything that could be associated with the Israeli/palestinian conflict was to be banned. That meant Israeli and palestinian flags.
Also the friends of the jews as mentioned above are far right politicians that the leftists consider racist, that is why they didnt want them in the march.
The police have the right to remove anyone from an event like this if they believe they can be harmed or cause problems. ( and they would likely be attacked by leftwing extremists)

I think it was wrong, and so do the majority of people on norwegian discussion groups.

#31

While I oppose anti-semitism wherever I find it, I do not hold the descendents of its perpetrators, or the fellow countryment of its perpetrators, personally responsible for these acts.

It is wrong to condemn all Germans for what some of their fathers did.

More than ever, it is important to welcome those of our fellow LGFers from Europe who support our cause. I'm glad you're here, as well as our friend from Norway. Please keep giving us your perspective.

#37 JEWS celebrate k-nacht to remind themselves of horrors past, to reflect on them, and to be GRATEFUL that they live. This celebration is similar to passover, which also was a horrific event, if you think about it. Only those who "celebrate" it survived the angel of death. Now, OTHERS celebrating it could mean they sympathize with you, like people calling on the anniversary of your wife's death, or could mean they GLOAT over you. It all depends.

If I were Jewish, I'd be leaving Norway soon. The blue states could use some patriotic citizens, hopefully to replace those we happily lose to Canada.

munga

45 ubangi

Ahhh, thanks you. That clears it up.

Now I can see how absolutely INSANE this is.

bigel

I have kept my mouth shut over all the contreversy YOU seem to instigate here. But that last post, challenging TGA with inference towards guilt and blood being on HIS HANDS IS WRONG!

Knock it off. This topic is way too sensitive and inflammatroy for you to do that. You can talk about an issue without associated blame to someone personally because of their ancestors or "neighbors" of their ancestors. First of all, the Nazi's may have been German, but not all Germans were Nazi's. Just as I am an American- but I am not a LIBERAL!

As for TGA "learning" form his pain- it is the wise man that DOES learn form the hate instead of feeding on it! This is what the Palestinians have done. You are stooping to thier level when you do what you just did to TGA.

My intention is not to attack you, but to keep this from escalating- please tone down where your challenging remarks land and how they land.

Please, somebody help me!!!

With all that is going on in the ME, and I don't need to innumerate it for you all, why is FoxNews spending all this time on Scott Peterson!
It's a tragic story and I'm not minimizing their deaths but, puhlleeeze!

Maybe I'm drunk, but did I read this correctly:

This came at the end of a week in which Norway managed to forbid Jews from marking the anniversary of Kristallnacht, a step the French haven’t yet taken.

Norway declared by law that The Night of Broken Glass wherein formal persecution of Jews began in WWII no jews could attend in 2004? My eyes are blurring...

#43 bigel

I would never have brought up my personal story normally. It was one of your postings a few months ago that irritated me so much that I talked about it.

The Nazis killed your relatives for being Jews. They killed my father for helping Jews (and failed to kill me because U.S. troops liberated Buchenwald.

I grew up in the 30s, I witnessed the Reichskristallnacht. I could tell you a lot about this night, how it was lived by the average German. But you would probably misunderstand.

You are telling me that I haven't learned anything? For decades I've been touring schools so that young Germans learn something. Some did, some may not.

It's your fixed idea that all Europe is populated by passionate Jew haters. I can't talk you out of this idea although I believe it is simply wrong. Antisemitism has not died, it has grown with the Muslim influx and it's something we have to watch every day and fight.

Simon Wiesenthal, who I have talked to several times over the decades, does not share your beliefs. He would scold you for painting all Europe with your broad brush. If you tell someone ten times a day that he is a Jew hater although he clearly is not one, you will sooner or later receive an aggressive reply.

European pc tolerance is sometimes counterproductive, I know, since those who mostly take advantage of it can be our worst enemies. There is a shift in the attitude towards intolerant Muslims fortunately, but I don't want it to manifest itself in burning schools and mosques like in Holland. But there is no doubt that we must confront islamism and antisemitism aggressively.

theparson

LOL!! Drink some punch

#24 Paul
In other news, France stated that veterns of the Omaha Beach landings would no longer be welcome at D-Day
memorials.

Hey, that's no joke. Military cemeteries in Northern France for American and British veterans of WWI and WWII who died defending France for the French were defaced about a year ago by French leftists with graffiti that said (in French), "Get your trash off our soil."

Is there a first-hand online Norwegian source for this Kristallnacht story? I'm reluctant to believe it. Bjorn Staerk doesn't seem to have anything to say about it, for example.

#56 Bigel

Please don't think I'm ganging up on you. I truly try to understand your point of view. However, to carry your thought across the board we Southerners could never hope to have any relations with black people. Even though everyone I know here in the south detests slavery or rascism completely. You should place the blame where it rests but not with such a broad stroke.

Zombie

Of course you know, this means war.

Letter from SOS Rasisme
Letter to the Simon Wiesenthal centre after complaints

Dear Sirs,

We have registered that you have made a complaint to the Norway Embassy in Washington because of the police action to stop a hanful people with Israeli flags.

The norwegian TV2 news made a very wrong story of this incident. The Star of David and other jewish symbols were of course allowed in the procession, actually there was a Star of David in the poster for the demonstration.

The committee had settled on not to take up the Israel/ Palestine- conflict in the procession. No banners either against or in support of for example the security barrierr where wanted. We fear that the day would be teared away from the historical role and the many issues of antisemittism and racism in Norway of today.

"Det mosaiske trossamfunn" (DMT), the Jewish Community of Oslo, has also excluded two of the people the police stopped. Some of the others in the group, where even not jewish, they wanted to promote a very small ultra-right-wing political party in Norway.

In a press release from the DMT, they say:
"På bakgrunn av at NIS og organisasjonens ledelse på årsdagen for Krystallnatten valgte å gå i samarbeid med aktører som DMT på det sterkeste tar avstand fra, valgte styret den 9. november å ekskludere Erez Uriely og Rachel Suissa fra Det mosaiske trossamfund med øyeblikklig virkning."

A quick translation is:
"In the light of that 'NIS' and the leadership of the organisation on the anniversary of the Kristallnacht chose to cooperate with actors that DMT strongly oppose, the board chose to exclude Erez Uriely and Rachel Suissa from the Jewish Community with immediate action."

With anti-racistic regards,

Trond Thorbjørnsen
President

[Link: www.sos-rasisme.no...]

The Norwegian committee that awards the Nobel Peace Prize says they made a mistake in 1994 and wish they could take it back.

No, not Arafat’s prize. Screaming for millions of martyrs to march on Jerusalem is no problem for these guys. Congratulating and paying blood money to the families of murderers is no problem. 50 tons of smuggled weapons? No problem.

They wish they could revoke the prize awarded to Shimon Peres.

--

Peace Prize Meant as a Rebuke ... to President Bush.

--

Norway's Open Door Policy for Jihadis

Norwegian Islamic Leader Praises Suicide Bombers

Anti-Americanism, anti-Semitism, pandering to Islamists -- think that has anything to do with "not wanting any trouble?"

"TV2 also reported that the authorities, saying they didn't want trouble, forbade any Jewish symbols, including Stars of David and Israeli flags," according to Israel's Arutz-7 radio station

#60 zombie

I say then, bring them home and lay them to rest where they will be properly honored.

By the bye, some time on a slow thread, I'd love to talk about protest warrioring, and why I don't think I'm brave at all.

#65 TGA

Can you 'splain?

True German Ally (#41)

Oh yes, hating Jews with such a passion.

That report is from 1999/2000. As you know, a lot has changed since then, and not just in Norway.

Does anyone else think that the Muslim jihadists are worse and more dangerous than Hitler and the Nazi's?

Bigel and Zulubaby

On my bad nights, I agree with Bigel.

The fact is, with the last few years, any doubts I had about supporting Israel have vanished, and my fears about European anti-semitism have risen. I am not comfortable with condemning all of Europe, not yet, but the things we're seeing are making me angry and fearful, too.

But we need to find the people ready to speak out, not antagonize them.

#70 Bigel

I see, you have a good point. I'm not really qualified to enter this argument so please forgive me for butting in.

#52 - Armytramp

Quite right.
I understand Bigel's frustration, but as I was saying to someone tonight, when you come upon a really good, well-meaning person, either personally or in print, it feels as if you have met an angel. The good intent of such a person overcomes the evil of 1000 people... or more.

TGA and Norwegian Right appear to be two such people.

My grandmother came from Norway, I am also part French and I neither hate Jews and have been staunchly supportive of Israel --always --not just recently.

We will get no where by labeling and classifying everyone into a group because that is exactly what the left does. That is what the MSN plays into.

Not everyone who voted for GWB was a "right-wing, Christian" as the left wants to claim.

There is no need to stoop to their level and demonize entire groups by labeling them and involuntarily classifying them into some collective group.

I am not supporting the decision in the article at all. It places the burden on "not causing trouble" on the Jews rather than on those who are likely to cause trouble. I think it is wrong.

The term "nazi" is banted about now which I think actually negates the horrors of the ideology. I don't know, I think it becomes "commonized" by name calling usage and the it should be an ugly term that conveys evil intent.

At present, the only ones I know who have an evil intent to exterminate select groups of people are the Islamists and in their case it is ALL who do not believe what they do.

#64 bigel

"Do you really think Jews have any future in Europe? Do you think most people in Europe would give a damn if all the Jews left?"

Yes I truly think they do. In Munich, right in the heart of the old town, a Synagogue and a Jewish Cultural Center is built, with the overwhelming support of the population. The number of Jewish immigrants is growing and Germany has and is actively encouraging it.

Antisemitic remarks are still the fastest way to kill your political career.

I'm not painting things too pink here. I see the problems. But it's not 1933 here. Most German Jews would say that while they do witness antisemitism they feel safe here. At least as safe as in Israel.

But if you want I can ask the guy who runs the kosher food shop in Munich's central market.

#72 eeevil conservative

No, I don't. The Nazis, as Robert Conquest has eloquently expressed, are as bad as it gets. In a lot of ways, the new Islamofascism is a nasty blend of the worst of Nazism and the old, old anti-semitic vileness of the Koran.

bigel, I understand completely where you're coming from, you know that, but please, don't provoke for the sake of it. There are many people here who support us and fight this fight with us -- yes, even some Europeans. I love and support you bigel, but you're alienating people who are on our side because you put them on the defensive. You can make your point without the over-the-top hyperbole. Please bigel, continue to tell the truth but learn to recognize friend from foe. It's important, now more than ever.

Shabbat Shalom, my friend.

#58 True German Ally 11/12/2004 06:41PM PST

I grew up in the 30s, I witnessed the Reichskristallnacht. I could tell you a lot about this night, how it was lived by the average German. But you would probably misunderstand.

When people refer to "growing up" they usually mean those years in which current recollection of consciousness begins, from three to five years of age, until they reach the age of majority thereabouts, 16-18 years of age. That would place you (2004-1930=74 years old to 2004-1939=65) between at least 65 to 75 years old.

Please tell us about Kristalnacht and Buchenwald.

#79 - Zulubaby

That's what I was trying to tell Bigel in my last post (#75). Perhaps your eloquence will get through to him.

theparson (#55)

With all that is going on in the ME, and I don't need to innumerate it for you all, why is FoxNews spending all this time on Scott Peterson!

Consider that any coverage that Scott Peterson is getting is coverage that Arafat isn't. A bright side, you see.

#72

I think they are more dangerous. Nazis wanted to live. They don't.

Shiver.

#83 ZBaby

As always, the voice of reason :)

#55 theparson

The fact that Scott Peterson has been convicted shows that there is, indeed, a God. Furthermore, it shows that money doesn't always distort justice. And we need the proof, after the fiasco of the OJ Simpson case.

That's why it's so all-over-the-place.

#86 Diana

You know I love you but, I am so tired of the whole thing. I'm glad they are covering it but, it's rediculous. They are going into detail about who that what, when and making stuff up.

#87 Bigel

Let me just say, we are on your side and we pray for you all.

#80 Sol Roth

Your calculation is about right, I'm 78

I think the real analogy here (where Southerners are concerned) is that Southerners are, to this day, treated as second class citizens for what SOME of our ancesters did 140 years ago. We are told we are evil, racist, stupid and backward.

To get a taste of that, just look at the foul things the Democratic losers are saying about the Red States, and how they are characterizing anyone from those regions as being bone stupid. They are saying that those are the "Slave States", and trying to draw parallels between racism then and voting habits now (in an irony to weird to be believed, considering that the party of racism and slavery is, historically, the Democratic Party.)

This stereotyping based on region of origin does nothing but stir up hatred.

I know how this feels. It feels unjust and it makes me furious.

I can imagine how Germans, Norwegians and other Europeans who have done nothing wrong feel as well.

You can't defeat anti-semitism by being racist yourself. You will only antagonize.

Attack the ideology. That's fair game. But attacking good people like some of our LGFers is just rage for the sake of it. We got enough of that a few threads down. Everyone needs to vent once in awhile, but it's enough now.

#88 theparson

I'm tired of it, too. I've been trying to ignore it, ever since I came to the nasty conclusion that he was guilty. But they feel the significance of the case, the press does, and that's why they're all over it.

30 bigel

And from what I know, your Lutheran Church, to which most Norwegians belong (even if they do not actually go to church), is about as anti-Israel as any Marxist or Nazi.

Please elaborate on this statement.

Keelie, I love bigel to bits and while he may be over-the-top, he speaks the truth and that seems to annoy a lot of people who would prefer not to confront the ugliness. But with all that we do have friends and it's important to recognize that. You know me, I'll claw out the eyes of any Jew-hater. Don't think for a minute that I'd give the genuine article a free pass -- far from it. I just don't want to see tearing apart when what is needed is huddling together.

Sometimes you scratch the surface and you find poison. Other times you find sincerity. Those who get it, do, and those who don't never will.

#58 True German Ally . . .

There is a shift in the attitude towards intolerant Muslims fortunately, but I don't want it to manifest itself in burning schools and mosques like in Holland. But there is no doubt that we must confront islamism and antisemitism aggressively.

I agree with your views, and am sorry to see Bigel attack you--as he does many others, especially Europeans. On a previous thread I kept silent when people started bashing Dutch posters, but now I see that it's a trend that's getting out of control (again).

Really, folks. Although the internet allows us personal privacy, and we can be more frank than we normally might be in the "real world," let's use some common sense here and have some good manners.

I'm sure many of us have asked ourselves at one time or another, just how brave we personally would have been when confronting full-armed Nazis. Once the ball begins to roll, most individuals will be squashed, whether they are "part of the problem" or just people who want to stay alive. Maybe I would have been heroic at age 18, but I'm fairly sure that today I would just try to avoid calling attention to myself (true confessions here).

One more thing--I'm glad that Norwegians and Dutch are starting to think about preserving their societies. However, it will take time. Although I think that Islam is a dangerous cult and not a true religion, we can't expect it to disappear just by screaming and yelling. Let's be a little more subtle here.

Maybe Islam will become more moderate as time passes and various generations come and go. Meanwhile, the extremists can be fought through the police system and the law courts.

Since it's believed that 1/2 or more of all mosques today in the U.S. are funded by extremist Saudi wahhabis, it's up to our various police agencies to infiltrate them and to put in jail preachers and imams or whomever is calling for jihad and death of unbelievers.

That's my solution--plus killing all terrorists in Iraq without mercy and offing known terrorists in the U.S. before the ACLU runs to protect them.

zulubaby #69

That report is from 1999/2000. As you know, a lot has changed since then, and not just in Norway.

Yes a lot has changed. The 2 most violent nazi's are now in jail for various crimes. The progress party that they speak of that get 20% of the vote is and allways has been a supporter of Israel. Satanists are rare and the one who was convicted of burning churches did turn into a nazi but is also in jail. I would place the number of active nazi's today in Norway at between 30-50.

The real anti-semitism comes not from the europeans ,but from the people who have moved from other parts of the world, im sure I dont have to tell you wich parts.

#90 True German Ally

Your calculation is about right, I'm 78

If you can bear to tell us, then I would ask you to please enlighten us all with what you saw then. Few people indeed have seen what you've seen and know what you know.

True German Ally

I truly await your adolescent rememberances of both Kristallnacht and Buchenwald concentration camp.

I hope and pray to God that, if I saw the opression such as was at the time the Nazis were murdering the Jews, that I would die in the struggle. I certainly wouldn't want to live knowing I closed my eyes to it.

bigel, the last thing in the world I want is to upset you. You know I love and support you and would fight to the death for you. All I ask is that you recognize the rare friend. I understand that you don't like e-mailing but if you want to be in touch, Charles knows how.

This incident in Norway, and the fawning of Europe over the funeral of Hitler II are just the type of shit that simply get me so fed up that I simply have no tolerance for even the slightest crap.

A part of me envies your anger. I turn it inward and get depressed. This week has been very hard, I'm struggling with it too. Hugs and love to you, bigel.

News off...Smoothe Jazz on.
God bless Sirius radio and the Jazz Cafe.

#98 Sol Roth

It would take long and - I hope this doesn't come out wrong - would be buried by tomorrow as threads roll by.

I'm writing my autobiography these days and I'll probably publish excerpts in English online when I'm ready for it. I'll post a link then.

43 bigel to TGA 31

It is sickening moral equivalence at its worst. It is the very disease you claim to find so repulsive yourself. Yet you are guilty of it yourself.

Can you explain how TGA is guilty of moral equivalence in this regard?

Promethea (#95):

Maybe I would have been heroic at age 18, but I'm fairly sure that today I would just try to avoid calling attention to myself (true confessions here).

Do you think the majority of the mudered Jews would not have preferred just that? However, the Jews DO NOT have that choice. And therein lies all the difference.

48 bigel

You simply cannot expect to ever get most Europeans to support Israel; the history and culture of Jew-hatred is just too strong to overcome.

And you point is? That NorwegianRight should relocate??

I'm assuming he should get out before the bombing? Is that what you're saying?

If not please correct me.

#79, zulubaby

#87, bigel

After reading this thread, and the next one (concerning the Dutch), I'm concerned about the reception some of our European participants are being treated to lately.

LGF needs to attract Europeans who are beginning to appreciate the dangers we face from Islamic supremacists. Slapping like-minded Europeans in the face when they get here is doing the enemy's job for them.

Keep all your weapons pointed downrange, please.

NorwegianRight (#96)

The real anti-semitism comes not from the europeans ,but from the people who have moved from other parts of the world, im sure I dont have to tell you wich parts.

Oh please. The real anti-Semitism? Sorry, I disagree. The Arabs may be more open about it but the Europeans hate the Jews as much as the Arabs do. They're in bed together. Who do you think funded Arafat's slaughtering of Jews? Don't be naive.

In the end, Arafat was a lucky man, lucky because his perceived enemy was the Jewish state. Had his enemy been a Christian or Muslim or communist state, he would never have received a pass for his mass murder. He understood the world's lingering anti-Semitism better than most, and he exploited it for all it was worth. Those grandchildren of Europeans who supported or welcomed Hitler and who willingly allowed their lingering bigotry to be exploited were complicit in his evil.

#72

Does anyone else think that the Muslim jihadists are worse and more dangerous than Hitler and the Nazi's?

Yes, I do think they're more dangerous, and here's why (well, one of several reasons, but this is the one coming to mind at the moment).

The Nazi "prophet" was a living man. That meant we could kill him, and once we did* the movement could be (for all intents) killed.

The Islamic prophet died over a thousand years ago. We can't kill him again. He is therefore unassailable.

* Yes, I know Hitler committed suicide

56 bigel

But you will just have to understand that I, as a Jew, simply cannot stomach moral lectures about the evils of hate from a German. I probably couldn't take such a scolding from any European, but a German in particular.

Lectures and scolding?

Ever hear of "projecting"?

#95 Promethea

Yes what makes a hero? I don't think I ever was one because I never had much of a chance to influence the cards I was dealt.

My father was one, a quiet one. And I know some more heros who never had any press. The Israelis never forgot them, though.

Had I grown up with Nazi parents there is a good chance that I'd have become a Nazi although I know families where this didn't happen.

Most people aren't heros, most people will prefer to "arrange themselves" and get on with their life. The circumstances can be a lot less dramatic than the Nazi times. Most people are never confronted with a situation in which they have to prove themselves heros or cowards.

But you could face the challenge tomorrow.

#79,

Please note I'm agreeing with you, zb. Wouldn't want you to misunderstand.

To our several Norwegian posters (Norwegian kafir, Norwegian Right, and more), I'm sure bigel isn't trying to paint you all with the same brush. No, really, I'm pretty sure.

Some of you will be shocked to find out that there are anti-Semites in the United States. Even public figures like Pat Buchanan, Chris Matthews, and presidential candidate Ralph Nader have been known to spew some venom. By the way, Buchanan once ran for president. Michael Moore, CAIR, David Duke, some rural Idaho residents, ISM college students, and every Paleostinian spokesperson I've ever heard also fall into this category.

OK, maybe not shocked.

bigel needs a tall, stiff drink. I'm buying.

Yes I knew you would react to that after I reread the post.(must learn to reread before posting) I am not trying to say that the anti semitism among europeans is so small it should be ignored, just that it is more common and more hateful among other groups as the report the EU tried to hide showed.

81 bigel

I am definitely an American and that is what I consider myself.

I have been to Europe (and Southeast Asia) and I hold the same beliefs irregardless of where I am.

I do not disagree with you though that my positions would not be embraced. Though I would not change them because of popular opinion.

I am not a liberal left turned GOP voter, I have always been a Republican and it wasn't very popular back in the 60's, 70's and 80's. I am used to insults and derogatory remarks for not "singing with the popular choir."

There is a problem in Europe that has been growing for some time. Even when I was in Paris in the 80's, I saw swasticas in the Jewish section. Another time, also in the 80's, a bomb blew up in a Synagoge which I had passed by the day before. So, I do understand it's not "new" and has been getting worse.

You have too much good insight to offer and even if you want to rant and be angry it is warranted. Don't become like the very persons you hate --classifying and judging all people according to race, religion or ethinic background.

I am not personally offended at all because I have seen your posts and know that you are passionate and you do generalize.

You have a lot to offer and you won't be able to do it if you alienate those who are actually on your side.

#102 True German Ally 11/12/2004 07:26PM PST
#98 Sol Roth

It would take long and - I hope this doesn't come out wrong - would be buried by tomorrow as threads roll by.

I'm writing my autobiography these days and I'll probably publish excerpts in English online when I'm ready for it. I'll post a link then.

Just a little about growing up in Poland or Germany would be a nice tease for such a large audience. I think it is very important for this audience to experience some of this past. It would also help you to write your autobiography. I promise, it won't get buried in any forgotten thread, Charles sees to that with the Search feature.

Dar ul Harb (#111)

I wrote a response to your #106 which I'll refrain from posting. Suffice to say that I'm fully able to judge who is friend and who is foe, and will point my weapons where I see fit. However, after watching the world fawn over Arafat, I'm not in the best of moods so I'll take your advice and think twice before I pull the trigger.

As a followup to my last comment. I see a lot of parallels between Mohammed and Hitler. They were both violent expansionists. They were both intolerant of other views. They both drew from other religions to create their own spiritualism (contrary to popular opinion, Hitler was not Christian).

I have no doubts, whatsoever, that if Hitler had succeeded in creating his Reich and died peacefully in his bed, there would have been a mythology built up around him that would have created a new religion.

76 Nancy

I am not supporting the decision in the article at all. It places the burden on "not causing trouble" on the Jews rather than on those who are likely to cause trouble. I think it is wrong.

I agree and thank you for that whole post.

#117 wateshay

Had Hitler died in early 1939 he would have been remembered as one of the greatest German statesmen, regardless of the barbaries he had committed until then.

This is a scary thought indeed. And yes, the eulogies Arafat is receiving these days disgust me.

How do you tell someone who saw their father or grandfather thrown into death camps, tortured and murdered to put it behind them and move on? I can't imagine what our Jewish friends have experienced and I am quite certain if it had happened to me I would be bitter beyond words.
I am from a white, southern, just able to pay our bills, background. I grew up in a small rural town, my family loves me and, despite the death of my father when I was 7, a great childhood. I can't relate to what Bigel and others are saying. Yes, Bigel sounds a little bitter but, I believe it is bitterness born of pain and I for one don't intend to add to it.
Peace.

Gretchen (#84)

I think they are more dangerous. Nazis wanted to live. They don't.

A chilling point. The Germans were more organized though. I keep saying that the Islamists are today's Nazis, just less organized.

83 Zulumyfriend

Consider that any coverage that Scott Peterson is getting is coverage that Arafat isn't. A bright side, you see.

On one hand I agree, with all of the fish-ass-kissing, but at the same time, his death has made the news, which makes my efforts of "opening" eyes of people more succesful...

Pro's and con's..

Love to you dearie :)

#94 - Yes when we scratch and find sincerity, we must drink it like wine...

NorwegianRight (#113)

I am not trying to say that the anti semitism among europeans is so small it should be ignored, just that it is more common and more hateful among other groups as the report the EU tried to hide showed.

It's just as common and just as hateful but the Europeans act on it in a different way. The Europeans may not strap on suicide bomb belts but they fund the mass-murder of Jews, they boycott Israelis on the basis of their religion, they boycott Israel and produce from Israel, they encourage companies to disinvest in Israel, they incite hatred against the Jews in their oh-so-sophisticated way, they sit on their hands when Jews are attacked, killed, when Jewish cemeteries are desecrated ... I could go on and on. The Islamists are more verbal about it but make no mistake, the Arabs couldn't have managed any of it without the EU, UN, etc.

91 armytramp

I think the real analogy here (where Southerners are concerned) is that Southerners are, to this day, treated as second class citizens for what SOME of our ancesters did 140 years ago. We are told we are evil, racist, stupid and backward.

Thanks and I appreciated your whole post.

theparson (#120)

Thank you for getting it. There is no way to explain it which is why I said that those who get it, do, and those who don't never will. You're a remarkable person.

Group A stages a peaceful memorial demonstration. Group B wants to demonstrate peacefully at the event. The police, representatives of the State and wielding all the power and authority of the State, turn group B away, claiming that it's for group B's own safety that they leave immediately. The police say nothing and do nothing to hinder group A. They don't ask them to cancel their demonstration and disperse. They allow them to go ahead with their demonstration. Group B is disempowered and humiliated by the State. Group A is pandered to and encouraged by the State.

Now there are people on this thread like TGA who are seriously suggesting that the people who elect the racist representatives of the State and keep them in power are not guilty of racism against group B or that only a very small minority are in fact guilty of racism against group B.

Please, tell me another one.

I see your point...

#119

Very true. Hitler's problem was that he got caught doing something that no rational person could defend. Had he only been guilty of working the Jews to death, he'd be fondly remember by many people today.

The left likes to feel good about hating Hitler because they portray him as a right-wing lunatic. His brand of fascism, though, was really a lot closer to leftist socialism than to anything resembling a free-market economy.

He was also an avowed atheist who was very interested in the occult, even though many on the left try to portray him as some sort of Christian-gone-bad (often spoken in terms that imply any Christian could be the same evil monster).

Had Arafat been able to set up gas chambers, he would have in a heartbeat, and many in Europe would have justified it---not all, though. I want to be clear that I very much appreciate the support from the good Europeans on this site who have been somewhat slandered tonight.

I have said nothing like that?

94 zulu

Sometimes you scratch the surface and you find poison. Other times you find sincerity. Those who get it, do, and those who don't never will.

I feel exhonorated, for what I dint do! I understand your (and bigel's) posts, but/and appreciate your understanding.

Thank you for that.

It is no coincidence that Mein Kampf is the #1 book in ME colleges.

The ideologies are extremely similar. And, not just because of the Jews but they whole totalitarian system.

One of the most articulate Muslim writers who posted all over the web plus on his own site is a convert whose name took the name Abdul Aziz. He also posted as Al Haq and a number of other Muslim names.

His name was David Myatt, he is British and had been the head honcho of the Nazi party. He converted to Islam.

Google David Myatt if you want to see how closely Islam is to Nazi ideology.

This man is no "dummy" meaning he is very intelligent and very articulate. Many of the articles promoting that it was their duty to embrace the "Jihad" (of Al Qaeda) was Abdul Aziz.

Those who have studied him extensively are not sure if he is simply using Islam to accomplish his own goals or whether he has found Islam --close enough to his own ideology.

Now, he has his own --which is a combination of Nazi and Islam. I have forgotten what he calls it. Yes, British authorities are aware of him and even the UK Muslims are aware of his Nazi leadership past and it was fine with them.

NorwegianRight, thank you. The truth is so ugly. I understand that it's hard to face but it is what it is. If people are aware of it they can do something about it, you know? Whatever it is, in their own small way, they can fight the hypocrisy and the lies.

If you're new here, you're about to get an education like none other. Put your crash helmet on.

107 zulubaby
Well said! If anyone thinks the Europeans and the arabs are not closely aliened they are in dream land. Together they pose a most serious threat. It is nothing short of evil. We must look at this quite closely because it concerns us and Israel. The paragraph you quoted from Bin Laden's inspiration should be an early warning sign to everyone. Furthermore, we should be damned worried.

If this has not been a horrible enough week, there is still more. You can bid on either an ARAFAT ACTION FIGURE or a YASSER ARAFAT Signed Photo w/Letter. Two of 159 arafat memorabilia found on ebay.

True German Ally (TGA)

I think it is really important to read about your experiences as an eleven year old. It's such an impressionalble age and what a time in history to be young! Did you actually live around Weimar?

#132

Do you have any links showing that Mein Kampf is the number one book in ME colleges? I'd love to be able to use that tidbit in future arguments, but as much as I trust you're telling the truth, "I heard it from Nancy on LGF" just won't cut it with many of the people I argue with.

I don't know about college but it seems to be the best seller among http://www.freeman.org/m_online/oct99/meinkampf.ht m

136 wateshay
#132

Do you have any links showing that Mein Kampf is the number one book in ME colleges? I'd love to be able to use that tidbit in future arguments, but as much as I trust you're telling the truth, "I heard it from Nancy on LGF" just won't cut it with many of the people I argue with.

I'll try and find it. It's been a couple years since I did the Islam/Nazi connection. I saved some but not all, I'll see what I can dig up.

I have some David Myatt/Abdul Aziz stuff and I may have a link in there.

If I find it, I will email it to you through LGF, I doubt it will be tonight.

#138 Excellent, thanks!

#58 True German Ally 11/12/2004 06:41PM PST
#43 bigel

I would never have brought up my personal story normally. It was one of your postings a few months ago that irritated me so much that I talked about it.

The Nazis killed your relatives for being Jews. They killed my father for helping Jews (and failed to kill me because U.S. troops liberated Buchenwald.

I grew up in the 30s, I witnessed the Reichskristallnacht. I could tell you a lot about this night, how it was lived by the average German. But you would probably misunderstand.

You are telling me that I haven't learned anything? For decades I've been touring schools so that young Germans learn something. Some did, some may not.

Sir, you intimate that you have been "touring schools so that young Germans learn something." Could you please, briefly if you will, tell us just one or two of the lessons you brought to these youngters?

Sojourner, I know who my/our friends are. Some people can fake it but it doesn't last -- something will trip and the true character comes out. It may be hard to bear but better to know the truth. I'm a bit demonic about it actually. More than anything, I hate being lied to. No matter how painful the truth may be, it's still preferable to a lie.

#120 theparson

How do you tell someone who saw their father or grandfather thrown into death camps, tortured and murdered to put it behind them and move on?

My father was tortured and starved in a Japanese prison camp. In 1981 he bought a Toyota Corolla. That was a symbolic purchase if there ever was one.

Each of us only gets one life, IMO. Sorry, Hindus. Forget, never. Remembering the past is the key to fighting against recurring evils. But moving on without forgetting is the only way to maximize one's human potential.

Poland was "the epicenter of the holocaust" (recent words of a Polish politician). But in the same paragraph he proposed better relations with Israel. I'd suggest Israel jump on the offer myself.

The disturbing thing about excluding Jews from the Kristallnacht memorial because of the fascists there, is actually allowing the Nazis to celebrate Kristallnacht and the murder of Jews...

So this is a sign of what is to come in Europe (another holocaust maybe?)... because right now the extremists from both left and right hook up with the Islamonazis and find every which way to celebrate the death of Jews!

Scratch a european socialist, and you will find a national socialist.

Mein Kampf for sale, in Arabic

AN Arabic translation of Hitler's Mein Kampf which has become a bestseller in the Palestinian territories is now on sale in Britain.

The book, Hitler's account of his life and anti-Semitic ideology written while he was in prison in the 1920s, is normally found in Britain in academic or political bookshops.

But The Telegraph found it on sale in three newsagents on Edgware Road, central London, an area with a large Arab population.

The book, originally translated in the 1960s and revived by Bisan, a Lebanese publisher in the 1990s, has a picture of Hitler and a swastika on the cover and is selling for £10.

136 wateshay
Do you have any links showing that Mein Kampf

Reply: These are not the best but here are a couple to start with.

Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, is still required reading in various Arab capitals and universities, and is widely distributed by others. [Link: www.freeman.org...]

What about the wide dissemination of “Mein Kampf,” the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and other anti-Semitic canards throughout the Arab world?Main link: [Link: www.stanforddaily.com...] Here's the cache too in case it is no longer available: cache of [Link: www.stanforddaily.com...]

#98 Sol Roth . . .

True German Ally wrote about his experiences on an earlier thread, and you can probably find it by searching the Advanced LGF within the past 6 months or a year.

I've known several people with hair-raising stories like his. There are many people in the U.S. and Europe who speak perfect English, and you would never know what kind of experiences they had in their early years unless they described them to you.

BTW, as I recall, True German Ally was interviewed on TV when the Berlin Wall came down, and the American news reporter wanted him to repeat his story with a German accent.

110 True German Ally

Most people aren't heros, most people will prefer to "arrange themselves" and get on with their life. The circumstances can be a lot less dramatic than the Nazi times. Most people are never confronted with a situation in which they have to prove themselves heros or cowards.

That is a true statement, and only "great men" are historically noted during a time of great hardship.

All the good men in "untrying" times go unnoticed.

Everyone should read this article:

The second Holocaust- and European complicity

It's from 2002 and is actually more relevant today than it was then... and too close to the truth for most people to stomach!

#142 Beagle

First let me say that I appreciate what your father went through and I am glad he is able to cope with it so well. I would do nothing to minimize his pain and suffering or his remarkable recovery and spirit of forgiveness.

However, it is important to note that the Japanese do not pose a continued threat. They were defeated, we put their country back together and they are a vital part of our economy.

The hatred of the Jews still continues. They are derided and despised simply for who they are. Whether it is Europe, the Middle East or right here in the USA antisemitism not only exists but thrives and feeds on it'w own hate. There is an entire people who have devoted their entire lives to the destruction of the Jews. Therefore, it really doesn't compare. What the Japanese did was terrible but, it is over. The "Jew Haters" are active and their numbers seem to be growing.

Sol Roth, this is the thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

#108 Wateshay . . .

The Islamic prophet died over a thousand years ago. We can't kill him again. He is therefore unassailable.

Many important historical figures have been all but forgotten. Unfortunately, I can't think of any right now, but maybe I'll come up with some names.

One tiny example--in Chicago, a portion of a major street is called "King Sargon Boulevard." It's the kind of street where many car lots are located, i.e. kind of trashy but in a nice way.

How many people reading this even know who King Sargon was, when he lived, and what he's famous for?

True German Ally

I, for one, am glad you visit LGF.

Have you ever though of leaving Germany and moving to Texas?

Friendly people, generally warm weather (although 10 to 20 cm of snow will fall in the northwest part of the state above about 1000m ASL tonight into tomorrow), country music, non-idiotarian majorities (Joscka Fischer would have gotten his ass kicked in the '70s here swinging at cops) and no state income tax.

IIRC, some of the towns and small cities of the Texas Hill Country were actually settled by German pacifists fleeing the spread of Prussian aggression in the mid 1800s.

David Pryce-Jones writes about the Arab world’s infatuation with Nazism and the continued popularity of Hitler’s Mein Kampf.

Nancy, Zulubaby, TheParson, and anyone else: Thank you very much for the links. I'll make sure to file them away and put them to good use.

While we're at it, does anyone have a good link to a comprehensive history of the formation of Israel? There are few points in history more difficult to find reliable, factual, and comprehensive information about.

If anyone knows of a good book on the topic, that would be even better.

#145 zulubaby

I found it on sale at Borders on Red Bug Road in Orlando, Florida. I was looking for Huntington's Clash of Civilizations. It's sold with a plain black cover, in the corner. But there it was.

I never found Huntington's book.

On topic:

I'll make my same brief comment I made when Colt first posted this article.

commemorating celebrating kristallnacht

The powers that be should be sacked, down to the last peon.

Nannette (#149)

What a horrific read.

And now it's so much easier for the Europeans to persecute the Jews, because they can just allow their own Arab populations to burn synagogues and beat Jews on the street for them.

As I was saying.

136 wateshay 11/12/2004 08:09PM PST

Do you have any links showing that Mein Kampf
Here's another: More credible from an interview:
You trivialize Mein Kampf being published and translated in the Palestinian Authority. You found a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in Chicago. This is your counter-argument?

I am not talking about the existence of a book. I am talking about Mein Kampf being on the PA best-seller list and the reverence paid toward it. When Israeli forces overran Arafat's bases in southern Lebanon in 1982, they found numerous copies of Mein Kampf, in Arabic, in the PLO terrorists' belongings. Many Palestinian leaders and parents distribute Mein Kampf to their children on the premise that it is some kind of holy book.
[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

#157 zulubaby

It's so sad that the article was written in 2002 and we can see it happening before our very eyes... :-(

You know, I'm so glad that Bigel's back, he has the courage of his convictions and is honest in his appraisal of what will, in a couple of years or so, become a very painful reality for the Jews of Europe...

But the implacable hatred of Arab fundamentalism makes no distinction between Jewish fundamentalists and Jewish secularists, just as Hitler didn't. It's not just the settlements they want to extirpate, it's the Jewish state, the Jewish people.

This is the way it is likely to happen: Sooner or later, a nuclear weapon is detonated in Tel Aviv, and sooner, not later, there is nuclear retaliation -

Baghdad, Damascus, Tehran, perhaps all three. Someone once said that while Jesus called on Christians to "turn the other cheek," it's the Jews who have been the only ones who have actually practiced that. Not this time. The unspoken corollary of the slogan "Never again" is: "And if again, not us alone. "

As bigel says.

#150 theparson

However, it is important to note that the Japanese do not pose a continued threat.

Good point. But "the Europeans" are not the Nazis in 1933 either. As zulubaby said, we need to find the enemy and point our weapons downrange. With the sick murder of Theo Van Gogh fresh in the European consciousness, now is the time to make European allies.

Having said that, I think Europe is in an awful state. Their state-run media drones anti-Semitic, anti-American, and anti-Israel propaganda. Their governments are more interested in protecting the Islamists than they are their own citizens in many cases. Two years ago, France had over 800 no-go zones due to Islamic immigrants. I'm sure that number has gone up since then.

France, Belgium, Germany, and Sweden are nations with real propaganda and immigration problems. But even in those nations there are independent thinkers who we can count as allies.

#160 zulubaby

As bigel (the tzaddik) has always said... in his prophetic words...

#153 Ed Moran

Thank you for your kind words. I have lived in the States for a while and yes, I like Texas.

Moving now? Well I could, but old trees are difficult to replant somewhere else (especially with family attached) and since I live in Bavaria things aren't so bad :-)

They say Bavaria is the German Texas, after all.

I will certainly visit again on holidays as long as my health permits it.

Well should Schröder win a third term, ask me again! But I'm working on not letting that happen.

#71 True German Ally 9/3/2004 07:45PM PST
The very short version:

My father (of conservative, catholic leaning) opposed Hitler since 1932. He spent 1933-1937 in Dachau, when he was released very sick. He recovered and took up his clandestine fight (which included procuring faked papers for Jews who wanted to flee Germany). The Nazis didn't find out. In 1944 he was involved with the Stauffenberg coup (not a central actor). He was arrested and we never heard from him again. My whole family was sent to Buchenwald (Sippenhaft). With some incredible luck (and some help) I managed to escape and was hidden by friends in a basement in Dresden, only to live the firebombings. The house was totally destroyed and I was recaptured and sent to Buchenwald again. With some more incredible luck I avoided the "Death March" to Dachau and remained in the camp, to be liberated by American troups in April 1945, half dead.
In 1946 I was called as a witness to Nurenberg. But I insisted to testify that the Soviets had turned Buchenwald into a concentration camp (for their "enemies") again. The Soviets applied considerable pressure, so my deposition was only taken in written.
When I returned to the "Zone" (although I was warned by Americans not to do it), I was arrested by the Soviets, tried for "Antisoviet Propaganda" and "Spying for the USA"), convicted to death, "pardoned" some weeks later to 25 years forced labor in Siberia, sent to the GULag, spent 9 years in Workuta (Arctic Circle), before Adenauer managed to obtain the release of the remaining German POWs and many German inmates of the GULag.

I neither hate the Germans (I am German), nor the Russians. And believe me, I did not chose my name in vain.

I know that we're facing a threat today that compares to the barbary I've witnessed. And we will only win together.

___

Thank you for the story and forebearance with my impatience. I am sorry for you suffering. It certainly bears repeating, over and over again. I will be the first in line for your autobiography.

I especially like grayp's comment about bigel getting bitch-slapped. LOL! I thought I had read about this recently; it was just too many drinks/rants/threads in the past.

Came across this, thought it might butress your story:

Edward R. Murrow's
Report From Buchenwald

---
Legendary CBS reporter Edward R. Murrow described the scene at Buchenwald when he entered the camp after liberation:
---
[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

There surged around me an evil-smelling stink, men and boys reached out to touch me. They were in rags and the remnants of uniforms. Death already had marked many of them, but they were smiling with their eyes. I looked out over the mass of men to the green fields beyond, where well-fed Germans were ploughing...

[I] asked to see one of the barracks. It happened to be occupied by Czechoslovaks. When I entered, men crowded around, tried to lift me to their shoulders. They were too weak. Many of them could not get out of bed. I was told that this building had once stabled 80 horses. There were 1200 men in it, five to a bunk. The stink was beyond all description.

They called the doctor. We inspected his records. There were only names in the little black book — nothing more — nothing about who had been where, what he had done or hoped. Behind the names of those who had died, there was a cross. I counted them. They totaled 242 — 242 out of 1200, in one month.

As we walked out into the courtyard, a man fell dead. Two others, they must have been over 60, were crawling toward the latrine. I saw it, but will not describe it.

[go to linkie for rest]

141 Zulu

Sojourner, I know who my/our friends are. Some people can fake it but it doesn't last -- something will trip and the true character comes out. It may be hard to bear but better to know the truth. I'm a bit demonic about it actually. More than anything, I hate being lied to. No matter how painful the truth may be, it's still preferable to a lie.

I certainly agree, truth, however ugly, is beter than a lie.

And I do think you know who your friends are.

I'm just not sure what you're referring to exactly... ?

#160 zulubaby

Did you know that the Zohar predicts that Iran will fire the first nuclear weapon and try to destroy Israel?

Look at the unmanned drone last week sent by Hizbollah and made in Iran...

The Arabs and Iran are preening themselves for a war with Israel in the next few years...

#161 Beagle

Yes, I don't suggest that we consign Europe as a total loss. The point I am making is that I can undersand Bigel's hurt, anger and even skepticism. Europe is not the same as 1933 but, it is still very anti-semitic. Especially the younger generation who seem to revere Hitler. It doesn't bode well for right thinking people.

Nannette, I think a few years is ambitious. They're spoiling for a fight right now. They obviously haven't had their asses kicked hard enough.

Hizbullah: We can bomb Israel from the air

#167 theparson

The point I am making is that I can undersand Bigel's hurt, anger and even skepticism.

I agree with your whole post. I'm a particularly staunch defender of bigel's right to say what someone needs to say. But we need to use precision-guided rhetoric sometimes.

Thanks for the discourse everyone. I've got to get to sleep but it is hard to leave good company.

God bless

#168 zulubaby

And there's Egypt (please read the whole thread) looking for nukes - and in the meantime have also had their military arsenal, tanks and planes replaced by the US...

The official statment of SOS Rasisme, from before the march, clearly states that flags and banners are not allowed, EXCEPT those that are part of the official program. "Ingen paroler eller flagg, verken israelske, palestinske eller andre, får være med i fakkeltoget utenom parolegrunnlaget vedtatt av Krystallnattakomiteen i Oslo"

link

this was one of the comments on the blog.salon.com article on topic... I can't translate the page, and couldn't find an english version there.. :/ but if the purpose of the event was to be 'anti racist', then wouldn't one of the best ways to that be to not allow anything to identify your race? if it was enforced equally among everyone, then it makes it perfectly understandable...

maybe not the way *I* would have run the event, but the viewpoint is reasonable..

Apparently there is more to that story -

It says it is NOT true that Jews were prohibited from participating -only a small group was turned away and that decision was supported by the Society for Anti Semitism.

SEE: [Link: vyer.typepad.com...]

Simply untrue. Several jews participated in the march.

Symbols related to the Israeli - Palistini conflict where the ones banned. This includes the Israeli flag, the Palestinian flag, the Hamas flag among others.

This is a official statemant from before the march.
[Link: www.sos-rasisme.no...]

The small group of jews who where turned away, has later been banned from "The Mosaic Religious Body", because of their choice of racist and right-wing extremist companions. Even "The Norwegian Society Against Anti-Semitism" agrees with the decision to turn them away and to keep the Middle-East conflict seperate from this marking.

#173 Nancy

The Oslo police thought that Stars of David, Israeli flags, etc., were simply too provocative...

Provocative??? Wearing a Star of David is symbolic of being Jewish! It makes me sick how anyone could try defending the indefensible... were Christians thrown out because they wore crosses???

#172 dwntmpo "but if the purpose of the event was to be 'anti racist', then wouldn't one of the best ways to that be to not allow anything to identify your race?"

No, that's a grave error. You don't combat racism by pretending that different races don't exist. You combat it by protecting the right of everyone to be proud of their race and to proudly display the symbols of their race, as long as those symbols do not prejudice the rights of others.

I'd rather think of it as being proud of my heritage than my race...

but had they allowed everyone to bring everything they take to every other event, it would have just been a shouting match of who has more pride in their race..

#174 Nannette
#173 Nancy

The Oslo police thought that Stars of David, Israeli flags, etc., were simply too provocative...

I can't read Norwegian so I don't know if that Included Star of David.

It did include the Israel flag, the Palestinian flag, the Hamas flag.

Again, since I don't read Norwegian I don't know what the official statement says. That ALL flags relating to the Israeli/Palestine conflict were prohibited, not just Jewish symbols.

I realize the news article says Stars of David but again they are only reporting what was on TV and quoting "authorities" so I don't know.

There is a point --that the Israeli/Palestinian flags had nothing to do with the event that occurred. It may have been more to prevent the Muslims from usurping the commenmoration.

I would NOT however think that basis of justification could exclude wearing personal jewerly -Stars of David.

But it does appear that only a small group were turned away --not Jews were prohibited from participating.

#110 True German Ally  

Yes what makes a hero? I don't think I ever was one because I never had much of a chance to influence the cards I was dealt.

My father was one, a quiet one. And I know some more heros who never had any press. The Israelis never forgot them, though.

Had I grown up with Nazi parents there is a good chance that I'd have become a Nazi although I know families where this didn't happen.

G'd bless the heroes. I can think of a couple. One, was a former child of a top Nazi who was part of an experiment bringing together children of Nazis and children of Survivors about 10 years ago. This man was so torn up by the awareness of the atrocities his own father had committed, that he was unable to sleep at all. For years. My heart bleeds for him.

The other, is Anne Douglas, German, non-Jewish wife of Jewish-American movie star Kirk Douglas. As a teenager living in war-torn Germany, she was disgusted by her own Nazi parents, and ran away from home to France.

Personally, I think each of them have a Jewish soul. At the very least, a conscious conscience. I'd have liked to see more Germans take a stand, in one way or another, as they did. And why was there not a German revolution a generation after WWII, as there was in America, when young people created a divider between their generation and the one that preceded them? They're the ones who really needed it.

Europe is at a crossroads, and they show no sign of heading in the right direction. If individual Europeans wish to have the world remember their righteous acts, they will have to possess the courage to "walk the talk" against the ugly hate that their continent has been incubating all these years.

What is happening in Europe today is shameful, nauseating and cowardly. I'm afraid that by the time righteous Europeans are moved to act, it will be too late for them. We tried to warn you, Europe. Wake up!

#177 Nancy

From the first link you gave which is in English... [Link: vyer.typepad.com...]

I realize the news article says Stars of David but again they are only reporting what was on TV and quoting "authorities" so I don't know.

The NEWS article said Stars of David, and I'd imagine they have their facts correct!!!

I would NOT however think that basis of justification could exclude wearing personal jewerly -Stars of David.

It's got nothing to do with what you think, it's got everything to do with what the news item said!

Does Norway have any type of protection for freedom of speech?

#180 piglet

Apparently it does have for Muslims!

#179

The NEWS article said Stars of David, and I'd imagine they have their facts correct!!!

Umm.. heh...

We always kept tabs on the Norwegian branch of our family, and celebrated our heritage.
Not anymore! Now we simply idenitfy ourselves as American with no further mention of Norway.

What a shame, truly. I think the Oslo Accord is gonna bring that country some bad luck to go with the black eye it doesn't even know it HAS.

#155 Wateshay

While not a "comprehensive" history of the founding of Israel, the book "O Jerusalem" by Collins and LaPierre is an excellent, readable, and fair account of the events in 1947-1949.

O Jerusalem

Another reputedly good book (I haven't read it yet) on later events is Michael Oren's "Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East"

Channeling Bigel.

Nuff' said.

I have to say that on my bad days I agree with Bigel

People offended by his remarks are missing the point. If anti-Semitism is not a problem or if Europeans were not so willing to re-embrace it or, perhaps, more accurately, turn a blind eye to it, then I could understand their indignation. But where are the thousands of Europeans marching in the streets to decry this hatred?

Jews are like the canary in the mineshaft. Synagogues afire do not bode well for the rest of the world.

C'mon, in order to be even-handed, the Norwegians would have to invite some nazis along too. I mean, to do otherwise would be one-sided.

The Scandinavian left has little to do with Nazism. All Nazis are anti-Semitics, but not all anti-Semitics are Nazis.

I was at a Kristallnacht demonstration here in Denmark with my two small girls who happily waved the Israeli blue and white flag. It was a left-wing arrangement but I have to say it wasn’t as bad as all that. The main speaker (an Iranian – of Bahu religion) thundered against Islamism in general and the Theo van Gogh murderers in particular as well as the Danish liberal intelligentsia ignoring the thread of Islamism for a preoccupation with a complete risk-free and gratis anti-Americanism.

Later out I found out that there actually were two demonstrations in Copenhagen that day. One arranged by the communists, labour organizations et al. – which I attended and another arranged by Jewish organizations fairly disgusted that the Kristallnacht had been hijacked to some general purpose leftist propaganda and Israel damnation.

Another small town in Denmark had their own little sordid demonstration where they thought a Kristallnacht remembrance and a blame-the-Jews-condemn-the-apartheid-wall combo was just swell.

Other recent news in Scandinavia.
Here’s a 15 year old Norwegian girl, who, while waiting at a bus-stop, was abducted to an apartment and gang-raped by a group of immigrant.
[Link: pub.tv2.no...]

Here’s Sweden, where a gangs of 10-20 immigrant youths habitually tour the concrete suburbs and cities. This assault, one out of many which has come to light only because it was video recorded, is fairly typical. Two more or less random (Swedish) boys were beat into unconsciousness and permanent brain damage. (Warning! Violence! [Link: omikron.hackunite.net...] Notice how the Swedish newspapers blur out the faces of the assailants ([Link: www.aftonbladet.se...] There’s a law in Sweden, making it illegal to write anything about the ethnic or religious background of criminals, unless it’s absolutely unavoidable. A law which is followed fairly strictly, and when not - voluntary self-censure ensures many Swedes probably have no idea how bad it is.

Then there’s Denmark, where the case against the two Turkish immigrants who stabbed to death a young Italian tourist who had the misfortune to wander into the immigrant part of Copenhagen. The killers had already been convicted of several counts of violence. The case has been a pathetic debacle throughout. At a public ceremony where his parents participated, a, supposedly moderate Iman (who still favour stoning, mind you) heaved praise on his killers (“those are good boys, I know them personally”) and questioned what that Italian were doing in Denmark anyway. Meanwhile the flowers laid at his place of death were repeatedly burned to a crisp by friends of the Turks. During the trial, the Turks insulted the Italian’s father and spat in his face. Witnesses, all immigrants, refused to give evidence in the court and denied everything they had previously told the police. The courthouse was always packed with the friends and family of the killers, intimidating any potential witnesses. One of the killers was involved in a violent assault in prison. etc. etc. They got four years each. …bah.

#180 :
Yes, we have protections and it's part of the constitution.
There are laws against libel and slander, but if anybody are convicted of those, the European Convention on Human Rights overrules Norwegian law, and most often lets the media off the hook.
I live in Norway. We're oh so critical of the US, but we adopt all the caricatures of their culture. Including the LLL antics. Did I tell about seeing an audiobook of "Dude, where's my country?"...in Norwegian. I'm starting to call Norway East Massachusets.
Germany is Northern Turkey. France is Northern Algeria.

Yeah, we’ve got that in Denmark too. Dude, where’s my country…. in Danish. Pretty silly really, considering who likes the book. I’d be hard pressed to point out a more clear example of “American cultural imperialism” than Michael Moor. And yet the leftist pray to his shrine like he’s the second coming of Christ.

"There’s a law in Sweden, making it illegal to write anything about the ethnic or religious background of criminals, unless it’s absolutely unavoidable."

That's truly amazing. P.c. know-nothingness in the extreme.

Ulrik Høy, a speaker at the Danish Kristallnacht commemoration in front of the synagogue, delivered such an excellent speech I simply had to translate it. All hitches and lousy language are due entirely to my miserable translation.

“There are those who believe in the Original Sin,
And there are those who do not.
Both are wrong.
The Original Sin is a matter of exact knowledge.
The Original Sin is something you know about.
The Original Sin is the best documented crime story since the dawn of time.
Since Adam and Eve were throw out of the Garden of Eden.

Put another way:
Evil renew itself. Evil takes on new faces.
Evil starts anew with each generation and continue with the old.
Original Sin?! Some of the most original [inheritable] there is.

Examples?
There was an assault over in Købmagergade [street in Copenhagen – re. a recent event]. Just by here.
A Danish-Moroccan Jew was coaxed into a car. And attacked.
He was beaten. This time there were three against one. Sometimes it’s five against one, ten against one.
Gang mentality. Many against one.
The victim’s crime?
He had read from the Koran, out at the Carsten Niebuhr-institude [University of Copenhagen],
And that is blasphemy.
According to a specific, fanatical, version of Islam.
So, the crime was blasphemy committed by an unbeliever.
That kind of creatures or beasts must not take the words of the Koran into their mouth.
Especially when they’re Jews.
Then you’re in trouble. Beaten. On Købmagergade.
Central Copenhagen.

Evil renew itself.
Here, in the form of the oldest hatred in the world; Jew hatred.
Anti-Semitism as it’s called with a more hygienic expression.
Now we have three kinds of anti-Semitism in Denmark:
The old one on the right, embraced by the Neo-Nazis.
The new one on the left, which hide itself behind the term “anti-Zionism”,
the ones with the “boycott Israel” campaign,
And the newest, which come from Islam.
Call it Islamic fascism, Nazi-Islam,
With deep roots in the Middle East.
A pretty sight!
This is now. Denmark. 2004. While we commemorate the Crystalnight [Kristallnacht] of 1938.

The political left at time meet on the Rådhuspladsen [central sq. Copenhagen]
It is a thought provoking manifestation.
These parties, fractions, labour unions use the remembrance-day to demonstrate against Israel.
They turn the day upside down.
They hijack the remembrance-day and take it hostage to their twisted history.
You have to say, evil renew itself.
The political original sin is really making the rounds now
in an ideological original sin, with a religious shortage.
It was Hitler Germany which inspired the Middle Eastern Nazism.
When Hitler Germany disappeared in 1945, so also disappeared the greater part of Nazism with it. As ideologue and as politics.
It was put to rest on the historical trash heap.
Ideological and political it survives in the Middle East.
In Syria, e.g , in the Baath party
And thus the Original Sin comes again - and again.
Evil renew itself,
The oldest hate of the world, Jewhatred, is alive
and doing well. Terrifying well.
And on the Rådhuspladsen?
Well, here the extremist left-wing meets to condemn Israel.
Here they equalize the Nazi persecution of Jews in the 1930’th with Israeli persecution of Palestinians. NOW. Tasteful? No. Evil renews itself.

. . .

Cont.

All the while they rage against the wall.
It is an evil wall. Comparable to the Belin-wall,
which kept a whole people imprisoned, captured,
in the communistic prison by name of East Germany.
Is the wall in Israel there to keep the Israelis imprisoned inside their own country?
Is it there to confine the nation’s own populace?
Rubbish. It’s there to keep Islamic mass murderers at bay
And it works. The Islamic mass murderers don’t have nearly as much luck
murdering and massacring Israelis as they had before.
Therefore the wall in Israel is a necessary wall,
a regrettable indispensable wall,
a wall no one is proud of and no one declare as the world’s eight wonder.
But: a necessary wall.
Because evil renew itself.
Because evil must be kept at bay.

Where Europe stands? Oh!
There is an understanding between Europe and the Arab world.
There is a line connecting the US and Israel.
Where goes Europe?
Europe goes where she can appease the Arab world.
That seems to be way of Europe.
The way of France is clearer.
Yasser Arafat is hospitalized in Paris. France embraces a person whom has harmed his people greatly. Who has caused immeasurable suffering among Jews and Israelis.
France embraces.
Should one put an edge to it and say that France also welcomed the German Nazism of 1940-1941 and contributed to so much suffering amongst the French Jews?!
Perhaps the edge is too sharp.
But: evil renews itself
And The Original Sin is the best documented crime since the dawn of time.

How do we relate to this?
By saying it. By calling things as they are.
By not feverishly holding onto illusions. Enlightenment, European enlightenment traditions?
Oh but. One does get weary.
For what is its use, by enlightenment and information when the production of prejudices is so much bigger?
In the Middle East. In the Arab world. Amongst new generation of European youths.

What is the price of speaking up and calling things as they?
Each man much decide for himself.
One would never call it pleasant.
The Jewish victim in Købmagergade didn’t want to follow the case.
The institute has not pursued the case with any great vigour.
It smells of fear. Of fear of threats.
It’s tempting to stay low, stay mum.
The killing of Theo van Gogh on an open street of Amsterdam
calls for rethinking. Aha, has it come to that?!
Public letters in newspapers, comments, interviewed on the TV-news.
It’s tempting to keep mum.
I can only say one thing: evil renews itself.
On the Rådhuspalds, in Købmagergade, in the Middle East.
And it must be said. It MUST be said. It is the duty which comes with freedom of speech.
Especially on a day like this.”

What an amazing thread. I am humbled and awed. I read the article posted in #149 - this struck me- amoung much else;

This time, we won't go quietly; this time, if we go down, we'll go down fighting and take them with us and take more of them if we can, and the rest of the world be damned. Fool us twice, shame on us.

It is this sentiment (if that's what you'd call it) that fuels me, personally, it is, imo, what fuels the 'bigels' of the world, and is known as righteous anger.

Anger has always been a much maligned emotion, esp. in 'civilized' society. How ironic, as those same 'civilians' honor mass murderers and continue assauging their own complicit guilt by engaging in Jew/Israel bashing.

It's this kind of 'irony' that generates anger. It does not mean I hate as a result of this anger. It simply fuels me to engage in a war in words. I emailed some of the links provided here to the many forums I am on that are fighting Islamic terrorism/-Euro apathy/appeasement attempting to educate those willing about what we are fighting.

I appreciate all here who post their stories. They are all our stories...for that which is done to the least...

and - again and again- 'for the dead and the living, we must bear witness'

179 Nannette
The NEWS article said Stars of David, and I'd imagine they have their facts correct!!!

Do you realize what you just said?

We CANNOT use a double standard --fault the news and at the same time take it verbatim as though they are always 100% in what they report.

That doesn't make me NOT understand the sentiments and feelings, it does NOT make me anti-Jewish or anti-Israel.

There is antisemitism but this is NOT a good example. This was NOT discriminating against Jews but against bringing a political conflict into a commemoration.

To me it was a "leftist" reaction in the way it was reported because it specifically made it sound as though it was a bias ONLY against the Jews. That alone tells you that news article was slanted to make it appear "anti-Jewish."

I am pointing out that no more validity can be given to the foreign press any more than to the U.S. press without using the same standard --look carefully at "one sidedness" and this article clearly said "anti-Jewish" when it fact what was forbidden was anything symbolic of the Israel-Palestine conflict ---BOTH sides.

If you want to use this as an example of "anti-semitism" then what you are doing is including the Palestinians -thus Muslims giving them permission to be "included" in anti-semitism.

I am criticizing the way it was reported. It was misleading by omission and it specially was written to make it sound "anti-Jewish" and it may or may NOT have been but the rules and regulations for the parade were NOT specifically anti-Jewish.

Hum. Has the Saint Patrick day's parade in NYC ever had a problem with the conflict in ireland "politising" the event. I know they banned gay Irishmen from having their own float etc. But they didn't ban green.

I think I would have worn a yellow jude star to the march.

Perhaps their should have been a line of marchers with signs forming a timeline of the nazi era,

1943 The Mufti of jerusalem, the polular leader of the arabs in jerusalem, spends the war in berlin trying to get hitler to murder the jews in jersusalem. He personally intervens to prevent a trade that would have rescued 5000 jewish children, who were instead sent to the camps were they were killed.

2004 Yassir Arafat, a relative of the muft, who also killed hundreds of jewish children dies.

There was an incident a couple of years ago in the restaurant of a Norwegian government building.

I am not sure of the details, but it involved a visitor there -- I think an American -- who had a small lapel pin with a Shield of David emblem.

The manager ordered his to remove it or leave the restaurant because it was offensive. At the time, the place was full of nice folks sporting PLO headscarves.

Sorry to say, he did remove it. But at least he wrote about the incident afterwards. But suppose he had the guts to say, "No, I will not. And I dare you to drag me out of here".

Submission to such things, however, grudging, cannot fail to encourage more of the same and worse.

#186 Psychobarb

Exactly!

I agree the case is not so blatant outrageous as it first seemed (though it's still somewhat vague whether Jewish symbols were prohibited). However there’s something else, perhaps more insidious, at works here. The stealing of a predominately Jewish remembrance-day to be some unspecific general catch-all day where you can celebrate whatever subject that ilks you at the moment, even protests at the “apartheid wall” or anti-Zionistism.

It is a fact that the Kristallnacht commerates a specif historical and Jewish disaster, and while it to some extend can be used in a broader context this original source can never be severed. And it is undeniable that many many Jews also outside Israel, and presumable in Norway, feel a deep connection to Israel. Depriving them of this opportunity to express their sentiments also with Israeli symbols is, if not being anti-semitic, deeply untastefull.

The group being denied access to the demonstration was by all appereances provocators, but the organisisers set themselves up for just such a debacle as this has turned out to, when they outlawed Israeli flags. Prohibiting Israeli and Palestenian flags equally is not being even handed any more than prohibiting Martin Luther memorabilities and KKK clan outfits equally at a Martin Luther King Jr. Day rally.

Well, actually, if I might translate the original SOS-Racism press release (bear with me, my Norwegian is somewhat rusty)

[Link: www.sos-rasisme.no...]
---
The Democrats Wish to Sabotage the Kristallnacht Rememberance

The immigration hostile party 'the Democrats' plan to take part in this evening's Kristallnacht remembrance in Oslo. The Democrats are a party which spread clear rasistic positions. SOS Rasisme and the Kristallnacht committee wish to make it clear that we do not desire their participation in this evenings procession. In a press release ([Link: demokratene-oslo.info...] on the Democrats homepages, they assert that 'Norwegian Jews and Israel haters have made a coup over the remembrance of these tragic days which began the rise of Hitler's industrail murder of Jews.' Kristallnacht remembrance ceremonies are meant to remind people of the gruesome crimes and persecution of the Jewish people and other minorities. The Democrats intend to join the march with an Israeli flag, to remind people that not all Norwegians are anti-Semites, believing that SOS-Rasism and others have performed a coup for the rememberance of Kristallnacht. No flags or 'paroler' [I don't recognize this word], whether, Israeli, Palestinian, or others, will be allowed in the procession, except for those allowed by the Kristallnacht Committee in Oslo. The committee takes no position regarding the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. "Kristallnacht remembrance is a remembrance for the victims of Nazism and we reject this and all other attempts to destroy our message", says Maria Stine Johansen of the Kristalnacht committee in Oslo. "Everyone who supports our message is wecome to participate" concludes Johansen. SOS-Rasism organizes 30 remembrances throughout Norway (and gives a website address).

---

So, it sounds to me, like a bunch of NON-JEWS decided to try to force a political local issue, by waving an Israeli flag, at a remembrance ceremony, to further their own racist purposes.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE OBJECTING TO??? The misuse of the Israeli flag, by non-Jews,, when they were specifically told that it wasn't allowed? And for this, we're claiming anti-Semitism???

Talk about looking for commies under the bed. There's plenty of anti-semitism out there, without trying to invent some more out of thin air.

---

Anytime you'd like Norwegian translated, this Dutch guy will be more than happy to help. Probably save you from looking like fools. Any errors in translation, are simply due to the fact that I haven't lived there in years.

#201 Rune

Not as blatant as it seems??? Utrolig! Did you even read the press notice before you posted? I mean, Danish isn't that far removed from Norwegian (understatement of the year)... I feel certain you would have understood at least the gist of the press release...

These were non-Jews, attempting to make their own statement in support of their own rascist party, hijacking the Israeli flag. Does anyone really imagine, that if they were in power, in Norway, that they wouldn't refuse Jewish immigrants (however few they might be)?

There was nothing, absolutely nothing, that would stop someone from wearing a Magen David, or anything else! It was simply stopping a pack of rascists from ruining the rememberance ceremony.

It's about the same as prohibiting KKK members using Martin Luther King memorabilia at a civil rights parade to further their cause, ie, trying to use his words to promote tolerance of their twisted ideas.

WTF is "the anniversary of Kristallnacht,"

It is time for Jews to leave Norway.

#205 Jed - It is time for Jews to leave Norway.

Leave or fight back. Can't just stand there and take this. What would happen if they fight back?

I remember a family member of mine who was shunned her entire adult life for not being strongly enough AGAINST the German occupiers of Norway during WWII. No one in the family would have anything much to do with her, and she wasn't PRO Hitler, she just wasn't enough AGAINST him.

I also remember seeing Norwegians move far away from German tourists on busses and ferries, givng them looks of loathing and calling them names in Norwegian. To this day they dislike the Germans.

Guess that tide has turned.
Or is it just that they have a fanatical fascist left just like we do? I know all we hear about here in the US from England is leftist garbage from the BBC and rags like the Guardian, so it gives us a skewed notion of mainstream brits. I have no clue what is going on in mainstream Norway - ain't looking good from the outside though!

It is time for Jews to leave Norway.

Every thread about violence and incitement against Jews, somebody says they should leave that country. And go where? When are the Jews going to be allowed to live their lives in peace wherever they want, like everyone else? Yes, there's Israel but must every Jew live in Israel? The world had better wake up!

#207 zulubaby

Every thread about violence and incitement against Jews, somebody says they should leave that country. And go where? When are the Jews going to be allowed to live their lives in peace wherever they want, like everyone else?

Bravo!

That's exactly why I won't take bigel's advice and flee.

The world has to understand that we won't climb meekly onto cattle trucks ever again!

"They ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore
we don't turn the other cheek like we done before
you can hear them honkys holler when I knock them to the floor
OHHH they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore!"

Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys

Read again gigantor. I wrote the people turned away by all appereances were provocators. The, insidious if not blatant, outrageous is not that they were turned away as much as it was that SOS Racism had set themselves up for just such a happening when they decided to ban all Israeli symbols, as well trying to rob a Jewish day of all things Jewish – further witnessed by the appereant absense of pretty much all Jews as well as disassociation by the Oslo synagogue.

Notice how SOS Racism has been forced into a frothing sue-all-that-moves headlong flight. Someone who values freedom of speech would put their trust in open debate and not wholesale threats of lawsuits. But then again, we already know SOS racism does not value open and free debate.

([Link: vyer.typepad.com...]

#62 theparson

Please don't think I'm ganging up on you. I truly try to understand your point of view. However, to carry your thought across the board we Southerners could never hope to have any relations with black people. Even though everyone I know here in the south detests slavery or rascism completely. You should place the blame where it rests but not with such a broad stroke.

You lie. And you know it.

A very sizable percent of the (White) population hold the same attitudes their parents did. The attitudes are milder, maybe.. And are bottled up in a PC environment.. But scratch the surface.. It's there.

Every thread about violence and incitement against Jews, somebody says they should leave that country.

Perhaps every time their is an attack against jews 5000 jews should move into that country, and loudly and publically apply for asylum, buy ugly houses and put huge animated monorahs and figures of Areil Sharon on their lawns. :-)