LGF

-RetweetAnnan and Moore Battle it Out

Wed, Jan 5, 2005 at 7:54:33 pm PST

With 14,364 votes as of this writing, we have an incredibly close race for the lead in the first round of voting for the 2004 Fiskie, as Kofi Annan and Michael Moore battle it out:

1. Kofi Annan
2801
19.5%

2. Michael Moore
2795
19.5%

3. Dan Rather
1722
12%

4. SorryEverybody.com
729
5.1%

5. George Soros
690
4.8%

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481 comments

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1 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:55:57pm

soros gets it!

2 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:56:16pm

When is the bikini part of the contest?

/shudders

3 LSD  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:56:22pm

ahhh, the scum rises to the top ...

4 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:57:10pm

Soros is pure evil... I've watched him for about 10 years now and he has proven to be one of the most destructive forces economically to the world.

5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:57:47pm

C'mon, Koffi! You let me down last year, you can do it this year.

6 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:58:25pm

Kofi..Kofi! C'mon man, can't you do ANYTHING right?

7 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:58:34pm

I do not believe in the "foolishness" of the top two.
Smart enough to be diabolical but not self aware enough to know it
sorry fellas i aint buying

8 chewydog  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:58:58pm

Sorry Everybody has a book out...

[Link: www.hylaspublishing.com...]

9 john5z  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:00:05pm

They both deserve to win.

Was the Gerebox in the contest or does he qualify for nextyear's vote?

10 J.D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:00:17pm

Soros was my pick last year. I lobbied hard for the worthless waste!

11 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:00:36pm
12 Dances With Dhimmis  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:00:59pm

Yeah, Soros is Saran, and Kofi is ca-ca, but fatboy Moore takes the cake (and eats it) in my book. He has become the flabby-jowled face-man of Idiotarians the world over.

13 munchkin  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:01:14pm

Charles, is it my browser, or is this related to the recent outage of LGF, but why do the links in threads no longer open in a new window?

14 Dances With Dhimmis  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:01:56pm

Soros is **Satan**, not saran (whatever that is)

PIMF

15 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:03:09pm

Oh G-d, my nerves.

Who can I bribe? Kofi must win! Where are my campaigning partners? There's no time to rest!

16 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:04:01pm

Kofi will win...he's just too freakin' unbelieveably inept not to.

17 JimmyTheClaw  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:04:56pm

micheal more because i can see him accepting the fiskie with the illusion that no matter what he is right. please tell me you have a statuette made and mailed to the winner with a link to the thread that announces his/her/it 's victory

18 Elcid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:05:16pm

soros is evil...but kofi and mikey...have led voices, ideals (if one can have mental midgets, have ideals) and actions to deaths of Americans and Iraqis, by murder or starvation, in kofi case...soros was a suicide guy, when he collapsed currencies...but don't think it led to direct American deaths.

Can there be dual recipients?

19 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:06:54pm

"So, you're black, eh? Can't read, eh? Get out of here! You can't vote! Dan Rather's my candidate!"
/Ohio or Florida poll worker

/sarc

20 ronnie schreiber  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:07:03pm

They all deserve it. Rarely have I ever had a harder time picking from a list. Kinda surprised that Walter Cronkite didn't make the cut. Maybe the Fiskies should add lifetime achievements in idiotarianism for guys like Cronkite and Dhimmi Carter.

21 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:07:10pm

Kofi Annan EVIL
Hans Blix EVIL
Jacques Chirac EVIL
Noam Chomsky EVIL
Ramsey Clark EVIL
Howard Dean IDIOT
Democratic Underground IDIOT
Maureen Dowd IDIOT
Al Franken IDIOT
Jeanine Garofalo IDIOT
Al Gore IDIOT
The Guardian EVIL
Seymour Hersh IDIOT
Prof. Robert Jensen EVIL
Ted Kennedy EVIL MURDERER
Mary Mapes IDIOT SYCHOPHANT
Chris Matthews IDIOT
Michael Moore BIG FAT EVIL IDIOT
Mark Morford IDIOT
Lawrence O'Donnell IDIOT
Keith Olbermann IDIOT
Sean Penn IDIOT
John Pilger IDIOT
Barbara Plett EVIL IDIOT
Ted Rall IDIOT
Dan Rather IDIOT SUPREME
Linda Ronstadt REAL IDIOT
George Soros PURE EVIL
SorryEverybody.com IDIOT
Bruce Springsteen EMBARASSING IDIOT
Barbra Streisand BROOKLYN IDIOT
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero IDIOT
James Zogby EVIL
Markos Zuniga EVIL IDIOT

22 Eagle  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:07:12pm

I can't believe I'm cheering for Michael Moore!

God Speed you fat bast#rd!

23 theparson  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:08:11pm
Can there be dual recipients?

I want to see a clear single winner (loser). And it should be Kofi (I'll ski through the tsunami) Annon.

24 Dances With Dhimmis  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:09:23pm

#21 AtlasShrugged

LMAO! I forgot about SorryEverybody.com. They'd be an excellent choice.

25 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:10:41pm

AtlasShrugged (#21)

I don't agree 100% with all your assessments but they're pretty accurate. There is one that I must speak out about and that's ...

John Pilger IDIOT

He's evil.

26 ambisinistral  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:10:52pm

Incredibly, you forgot to put John Kerry on the ticket.

27 J. Lichty  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:11:04pm

I am undecided between Kofi and Moore.

PRO KOFI:

He had his worst year as head of this organ hell bent on destroying Israel and America. Oil-for-food in which his son was involved finally hit the headlines. He has done nothing in the Sudan and decided that skiing in Jackson Hole was more important that responding to the worst natural disaster since Pompeii. He has praised Arafat to no end and has criticized Israel and the US with the same vigor. He looks great in a C and F cartoon.

CON KOFI:

He is a crooked malevolent creature, not just an idiot. He does something worthy of scorn and ridicule nearly every day, not just every year

PRO MOORE:

Moore tried to unseat a President during wartime using nothing but distortions and lies. He will win award after award from the film industry, so it is a trendy pick. That smirk. He was seated next to Jimmeh Peanut when John Kerry reported for duty. He not only passes global tests, he is the size of the globe. He is a MSU Spartan.

CON MOORE:

He is cold anc calculated and knows exactly what he is doing. Unlike blind partisan followers like Markos Zuniga, Josh Marshall and Wonkette, he sets the tone. He did come down hard on "our friends" the Saudis (even if for craven purposes, not because he believed it).

28 satan sidekick  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:11:41pm

#chewydog


OH MY! You can't make this stuff up. The people who buy that book even more pathetic than the people in it.

Ted Rall - an idiot's idiot.

29 blueroom127  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:12:24pm

Damn, I spared one vote for Blix. wish now that I'd given it to Kofi. Run Kofi run. You've got the world behind you!

30 T_IT_UP  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:12:56pm

C'mon, Lizards!

We all know Linda von Ronschtup is more idiotic than Khafiya Anal and Moored-Blimp put together!

And that's really saying something when you consider what a massive tub o' blup the Moored-Blimp really is.

Now I've used all my votes on Leen-duh so I really want every single one of my votes to count!

Let's send her back for a ride on the Stone Pony!

31 psaturn  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:13:03pm

I demand a recount !

32 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:13:49pm

let's not forget Soros... he's more cold and calculating than any of the others... Do you know that he - a jew - worked for the Nazi's deporting jews during wwII?

33 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:14:17pm

What are you all saying Soros is pure evil? I disagree with him strongly, but I don't think he's evil in the least.

34 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:14:52pm

32 Texanista,

You have any evidence of that?

35 Elcid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:14:54pm
(I'll ski through the tsunami)

I wonder if he falls on his ass...and then blames aids (pardon the pun) for tripping him...how does one say.."son-of-a-bitch" in Akan, Moshi-Dagomba, Ewe, and Ga, the languages they speak in Ghana.

36 Andy in Agoura Hills  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:14:55pm

#27 J. Lichty 1/5/2005 08:11PM PST

Then vote for Chrissy Matthews!

37 tom  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:15:24pm

Liberalism is a mental disorder. They all deserve to be fed to the lions. They're going to get us all killed.

38 ronnie schreiber  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:15:35pm

Atlas Shrugged, #21 ROTFLMFAO

By the way, the National Review Online today has an interesting review of Atlas Shrugged , written by Whitaker Chambers in 1957. It's part of the magazine's 50th anniversary celebration.

Texanista: that's a pretty serious charge to make against Soros. What evidence do you have that he collaborated?

39 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:16:05pm
40 NY Nana  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:16:21pm

I was going to vote for annan, but after this, re mm? He is a bastard, and if Reaganite sees this, I would hope that the Government is aware, on Inauguration Day:Mike's Inauguration Guide

On Thursday, January 20, 2005, George W. Bush will be inaugurated as president of the United States. For the millions of us who stand for the values of peace and justice, it is a moment to renew our commitment to resist the Bush Administration and its deadly policies of war and greed – and to show Bush, and the world, that our movement is energized, mobilized, and determined to keep fighting back.

Please read the site. It is scary. Any ideas about what can be done, as IMHO he presents a clear threat to President Bush? He is dangerous, and what he advocates is not peace...

41 Megan  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:16:31pm

Come on Kofi- If you can get oil for palaces, you can get votes for palaces! Plus, you've already clearly proven yourself an idiot, there's very little work you have to do!

42 J.D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:16:58pm

#32 texanista
I've read a lot about Soros, and I don't believe that's accurate. Do you have a link?

43 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:16:58pm

38 his own words... google him... soros isn't his real name either.

44 theparson  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:17:25pm

A vote for Kofi is a vote for democracy. Any other vote will bring doom and destruction upon mankind. Think mushroom clouds!

Vote Koffi - 2004

45 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:18:28pm

43 texanista,

Three people have you called you out. You have an answer?

46 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:18:38pm

I haven't kept files on soros over the years but I am absolutely sure of what I am saying... I'll do a search and find a link.

47 Pickle  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:18:40pm

Ted Rall is being robbed! He deserves at least an honourable mention in the top 5.

48 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:18:41pm

Speaking of enormous idiocy, it seems Indymedia has gotten the attention of the MSM:

Conspiracy theorists see dark forces behind tsunami disaster

49 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:19:07pm

#25 zulu

There is one that I must speak out about and that's ...John Pilger IDIOT
He's evil.

actually he is an EVIL IDIOT...

50 NuclearTinkerbell  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:19:56pm

Doesn't Kevin Sites get some sort of special EVIL PARASITE mention? He really deserves to have a wall plaque that he can use to decorate his own circle of hell when the time comes.

51 T_IT_UP  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:20:57pm

#21 AtlasShrugged:

Perfect post!

Linda Ronstadt IS the Real Idiot.

Hey-hey, Ho-ho, Kojo's Daddy's gotta go!

VOTE RONSTADT--VOTE OFTEN!

I demand a recount...just in case...

52 Elcid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:21:10pm

George Soros was born in Budapest in 1930 but, today, spends most of his time in New York City. Not much is known about his early years. He is the only eminent "holocaust survivor" who has been accused of collaboration with the Nazis. In 1947, he managed to sneak through the Iron Curtain, and, the official story goes, "he landed penniless in London, but by hard work and sheer genius, he rose to become one of the planet's most successful investors and richest men."
here

53 Dances With Dhimmis  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:22:08pm

Abu Maven

What are you all saying Soros is pure evil? I disagree with him strongly, but I don't think he's evil in the least.

Oh no, he's the devil.

54 ronnie schreiber  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:22:20pm

texanista

Sorry, a charge like that needs more documentation that simply telling us to Google the guy's name. There's plenty of spurious information on the net.

55 Luigi  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:24:59pm

OT -- High watermarks for Asian markets

The stock exchanges of Indonesia, Malaysia, and Thailand are riding a flood of good times, like there's nothing in the world to depress them. What's their secret? Prozac? Or the inflow of international aid and the prospect of a bunch of new beachfront that suddenly doesn't belong to anybody? In any case, it sure doesn't look like these markets expect their governments to encounter any unforseen social expenses, or raise their taxes for any earthly reason.

56 Clio  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:25:16pm

Kofi Anan has real institutional power and controlver internatinal agencies.

Therefore his malicious idiocy is really dangerous and has done real harm.

Perhaps more harm than anyone else on the list.
.
Michael Moore and other theatricals are merely jesters, and not even funny ones. They have no real power. They can get some stupid people to adopt their notions, but they cannot give orders.

Kofi Annan can give orders . . . and those orders can be damaging to the whole world.

So which one's idiotarianism is more pernicious? So which one more deserves the discredit?

Kofi Kofi Kofi . . .

57 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:25:28pm

#38 Ronnie

How off was that review? HA!

It reports the final stages of a final conflict (locale: chiefly the United States, some indefinite years hence) between the harried ranks of free enterprise and the "looters." These are proponents of proscriptive taxes, government ownership, labor, etc., etc. The mischief here is that the author, dodging into fiction, nevertheless counts on your reading it as political reality. This," she is saying in effect, "is how things really are. These are the real issues, the real sides. Only your blindness keeps you from seeing it, which, happily, I have come to rescue you from."

How sagacious and brilliant was Rand? The Greatest Book ever written...the only thing I would need on a desert island (and LGF, and Billie, and discourse with Pookle, and ...)

58 Mr. Pulpo  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:25:30pm

I want Kofi Annan to win.
If he loses I’m gonna keep my Annan/05 bumper sticker on my truck just to send message to you MooreHitler supporters.
SO THERE! nay nay nay

59 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:25:33pm

I found this:

Nearly a half-million Hungarian Jews were killed by the Nazis, but the Soroses managed to escape. Tivadar saw to it that young George Soros (the original family name, Schwartz, was changed in 1936) evaded deportation to the death camps in 1944 by posing as the godson of a government official. Years later, this masquerade became the basis for unfair press charges that George had somehow collaborated with the Nazis.

[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

60 J.D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:26:12pm

Soros was accused by who? When? I would put nothing past him, but surely there's more to go on than that.

61 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:26:28pm

here's one link and I'm still looking: soros

62 J.D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:27:32pm

I won't read rense. Just sayin'.

63 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:29:04pm

# 21 Atlas Shrugged

Very funny, but are we to suppose that since you gave Moore four descriptives that he is your favorite?
QM
'You have not read Atlas Shrugged until you have read it in the orginal Klingon" --Sea Wasp

;)

64 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:30:41pm

Soros is total EVIL and if he is a jew and he chose to collaborate, that is infinitely even more evil.

65 Elcid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:31:36pm

George Soros is the son of the Esperanto writer Tivadar Soros. Soros was born in Hungary and lived there until 1946, when he escaped the Soviet occupation by participating in an Esperanto youth congress in the West. (Soros was taught to speak the language from birth.) As a young man, Soros traded currencies in the black market during the Nazi occupation of Hungary. Soros was fourteen when the Nazis invaded Hungary and he avoided the fate of many Jews as the grandson of a Hungarian official overseeing the confiscation of Jewish properties, who was assisted by his son-in-law, Tivadar Soros.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

66 stuck in california  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:32:01pm

I hope we can stop calling Moore fat when we attack him. Even though he IS a big fat slob, it makes us sound like Franken attacking Limbaugh.

I don't want to ever go THAT low...

67 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:32:08pm

#57 Atlas

I'd bring a massive amount of chocolate, an engineer like Cyrus Harding, and a couple hundred more books with me.

68 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:33:36pm

I nominate Whitaker Chambers for a retro Fiskie for his book review of Atlas Shrugged in 1957...talk about getting it wrong...ouch!

69 Earth2moonbat  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:33:52pm

#15 zulubaby

Who can I bribe?

How much did you have in mind?

70 PDM  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:34:36pm
Kofi Annan and Michael Moore battle it out

Now I really hate Dan Rather!

71 NY Nana  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:34:42pm

#62 J.D.

I knew he had a hate site, and he does. I just googled him, as I had seen some of his articles. I feel sick..Texanista, to me, as a Jew, soros(may his name be obliterated) is not fit to feed to a piranha, but from what I know of him, he escaped Hungary, and was a university student in London, at LSE..here is the vile rense; whoever hosts his hate site should be taken to court.

Take a look at his 'experts' at the bottom.J.D., do you know anything more about this POS?

72 Bennette  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:34:55pm

I think Rather should win this one personally, but if he fails, surely, Annan should get the Fiskie.

73 theparson  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:35:37pm

#66 Stuck in Cali

He is fat!

74 oldtimer  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:35:42pm

The award cannot be allowed to go to someone who would relish it. Or in this instance, who might consume it with relish.

Anyone, then, but Michael Moore.

75 stuck in california  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:36:48pm

#66

LOL

76 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:37:15pm

Sepia is Latin for "cuttlefish."

77 Laurence simon  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:37:42pm

It doesn't matter. Representative Conyers will demand that all the Ohio votes be thrown out.

78 stuck in california  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:37:59pm

Sorry meant #73

79 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:39:33pm

#63 Quilly

Very funny, but are we to suppose that since you gave Moore four descriptives that he is your favorite?

My vote goes to the SUPREME idiot...the quintessential idiotarian Dan Staggering Rather

80 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:39:57pm
81 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:40:01pm

52 El Cid

From your link:

The only logical answer is that Soros wants as few Russians and others born into this world as possible.

Right, sure. Totally unsubstantiated bullshit.

82 ronnie schreiber  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:40:55pm

Atlas, I don't think that Chambers was unsympathetic to a libertarian point of view. He just thought that Rand was a crappy writer.

Frankly, she doesn't strike me as admirable in many ways.

83 NTropy  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:41:14pm

Well it's still a twelve horse race between Kofi (evil, not idiotarian) and Mikha al-Mooron (should be damned to be forever runner-up).

Sorry but I think the Sorryeverybody.com crew is easily the most pathetic and lame, the best to follow in the treadtracks of Rachel Jemimah.

84 theparson  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:41:15pm

OT

Thought you might appreciate this tribute to our troops.

85 J.D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:42:20pm

#71 NY Nana
It's been a while since I've read any of that garbage and I vowed I would never waste one second doing it again.
All I know is he's a sensationalist cheapshot moonbat.

86 Luigi  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:42:45pm

Israeli Group Biggest Civilian Aid Contributor to Sri Lanka

Jerusalem (CNSNews.com) - The Sri Lankan government reportedly refused to accept a large Israeli rescue and medical mission to aid tsunami victims. But even so, an Israeli group says it has contributed more civilian aid to Sri Lanka than any other country.
87 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:45:42pm

#84 theparson
'
Re your OT

I've seen this before, and it was a thread topic before Christmas. It is very moving. And it really puts things into perspective.

Thank you for posting the link again.

88 kiwiviv  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:46:15pm

As sorry as SorryEverybody.com is, they still don't deserve to be this high on the list. They are just a bunch of sorry people who are expressing their sorry opinion...they don't really hurt anyone. The others all have hurt others on a global scale (I'm not sure Rather should be this high on the list either)

In my (humble) opinion Soros, Annan and MM have the greater potential to hurt huge numbers in many nations - there are others further down in the list like Blix and Chirac who should be up in the top 5.

89 stuck in california  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:47:25pm

#84
theparson

dang you, got me crying...

90 NTropy  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:47:31pm

BTW Re: Jeff Rense

Just check the a href="[Link: www.google.com...] target="_blank">LGF entries wrt this clown to see where he's coming from.

91 theparson  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:47:47pm

Skippy

It really moved me. Very well done.

92 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:48:22pm

#82 Ronnie

Frankly, she doesn't strike me as admirable in many ways.

Rand is the quintessence of perfect logic. She is a philosopher on par with Aristotle.Completely unambigous, she saw it all...how can you look at the world today and not see her prescience, her utter brilliance, her clarity.

It doesnt sadden me to tell you how grossly mistaken you are. I welcome the opportunity to implore you to reread Atlas Shrugged or better yet, read the Fountainhead first. Reading it now will be a cold hard slap in your face and you'll thank me for it...A is A

Cheers,..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ ..·´ Atlas-:¦:-
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

93 NTropy  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:48:46pm

Sorry bout that

LGF Entries on Jeff Rense

94 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:49:15pm

Did anyone else's comments column suddenly expand?

95 Asylum Aleikum  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:50:15pm

Out of the five top contestants, only moonbats galore SorryEverybody.com are true idiotarians (a.k.a. useful udiots).

96 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:50:25pm

So Charles, when to we get to vote in round 2?

OT Atlas, check our e-mail.

97 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:51:19pm

92 you would do well to read about Nash equilibrium from an economic standpoint...

98 Catttt  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:52:06pm

Check ISBN 1559706929 on Amazon - Masquerade: Dancing Around Death in Nazi Occupied Hungary- it's an autobiographical book re the by Mr. Soros' dad. I think this elicidates this matter quite a bit.

I personally think this Nazi charge is unfounded and untrue.

99 Kylaer  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:52:19pm

All my votes went to Moore, and he's now in the lead.

100 john blake  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:52:27pm

Rather is in third and coming on strong. Donning a flight suit, touring the devastation and commenting on Us relief efforts, he said (IIRC) "...its also an opportunity to show the Islamic people that the US military can save people not just fight and frighten them."

aaarrrggghhh!

101 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:53:08pm

#92 AtlasShrugged

I've read both (actually, most of her books), and Atlas Shrugged was/is one of my favorites. But, Ayn was an egotistical unrealistic nut.

I lost any respect I had for her long before she passed away.

102 ronnie schreiber  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:53:11pm

ntropy, I heartily agree. Maybe in addition to the lifetime achievement award the Fiskies could also add a group category so that way true idiotarians like Garafolo and Franken could have another shot at winning.

This could be the start of something big, like the Oscars, or Grammies or AVN awards.

Just as the Motion Picture Academy gives out the Irving Thalberg award for lifetime achievement, I propose that the lifetime idiotarian award be named the Jimmy, after Jimmy Carter.

103 Elcid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:53:18pm

81 Abu Maven

Right, sure. Totally unsubstantiated bullshit.

Abu...paraphrasing the words of Fox News...I link, you decide.

104 Catttt  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:53:59pm

90 expanded the column. (Points)

105 Elcid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:54:43pm

"Soros makes no bones about the interventionist nature of his role in Ukraine. At one point, he remarked, jocularly, "If this isn't meddling in the affairs of a foreign nation, I don't know what is!" — Connie Bruck

[Link: ukar.org...]

106 theparson  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:54:51pm

#94 pookleblinky

How many hits did you take? :-)

107 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:00:44pm

105 El Cid,

Big deal. Bush makes no bones about the interventionist nature of his role in the Middle East.

Soros has done some good work in establishing "open societies" in the former Soviet client states. I happen to disagree with his hatred of Bush, but I don't know what possible basis anyone has to assert that he is "pure evil."

The fact that he may have posed as a Christian and helped confiscate Jewish land during the Holocaust is certainly jarring, but he was 14 years old at the time. It's hard to call a 14 year-old a "Nazi collaborator." And if he didn't do it, he probably would have gone to the gas chambers himself.

108 Elcid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:01:07pm

Only george soros knows what he did or did not do, in the 40's with nazis...and he ain't tellin. He's To busy parasitically making money. I find it a diametric oppositon to fund things in socialist areas of the world and spend millions in defeating the ideals of the country that gives him wide latitude, to do just that thing...that country is the U.S.

109 Glen Wishard  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:01:44pm

Last year I was afraid I would be Idiotarian of the Year, for having sat through a full 45 minutes of "Matrix Reloaded", but I escaped that fate and this year my conscience is clean.

I would have to argue against Kofi Annan, though. Anyone who loots as efficiently as he does is no fool.

110 kiwiviv  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:03:11pm

#105 Elcid -

Exactly! Soros is a dangerous idiot whereas many of the others are just sorry idiots. A dangerous idiot needs to win this - they are idiots twice over because they influence others.

111 Momzilla  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:03:54pm

I went ahead and chose Kofi on the basis that his idiocy has a negative impact and influence on more people across the world. I had to give him a bit of benefit of the doubt relating to motivations, though, in order to put him into the same category as Corrie and Carter.

In my mind, a true idiotarian should actually believe at least some of the nonsense they're espousing. Heck, it was just hard to pick this year. Too darned many idiots out there.

Soros needs his own category. He's not an idiot; he's malevolent.

112 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:04:04pm

108

He believes he's promoting American ideals, not destroying them. Certainly, spreading freedom in Soviet client states qualifies as promoting American ideals.

I'm not saying some of his stuff isn't wacky. It is and I know because I've read it. But "pure evil" is a bit much.

113 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:04:13pm

#97 texanista

You can keep the schizoid
I stand by Adam Smith. Period

114 theparson  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:04:26pm

Nite all.

115 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:04:44pm
116 Elcid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:05:47pm

197 Abu Maven

Big deal. Bush makes no bones about the interventionist nature of his role in the Middle East.

Ummm, I take it you do not see a difference in meddling in currency...and meddling for the sake of civil humanity...us or them...georges way leaves people penniless...the 'others' way, leave people dead.

Interesting...but "big deal", huh?

117 NTropy  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:06:42pm

#102 ronnie schreiber

Agreed. I understand the Fiskie to be for the most clueless, imbecilic, potentially-dangerous-yet-for-the-most-part-harmle ss person or people.

People like Moore, Annan and Rather have a definite agenda and are doing their very best to push it through. Were the Fiskies to branch out, I like the idea of lifetime achievement award (named, appropriately, after the first winner, Carter) and an award for the person most responsible for putting western lives most at risk. Those would be for the dangerous idiotarians like Moore, Annan et al.

118 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:10:25pm

Totally OT:

Experts Seeking King Tut's Cause of Death

While interesting in itself, what I find really fascinating is how the Egyptians (remember that 2B a year from USAID) hollered about anyone other than Egyptians doing the research.

Plans for the examination had raised a row among archaeologists and officials in Egypt, who insisted the mummy not be taken from Luxor, and that the research be done by Egyptians. The researchers originally planned to move the mummy to the Egyptian Museum in Cairo for examination, but altered that after the outcry.

The equipment was brought in from the WEST. Who can tell me of any major excavation done by the Egyptians? Who HAS done them? Where did the equipment and expertise come from?

The only thing Egypt has donated is the danged mummies.

Crap.

119 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:10:37pm

116

Which "George" are you referring to?

Bush's "meddling" leaves people dead. Don't get me wrong, I happen to support such "meddling" by Bush. Bush and I believe such "meddling" is worth it. Similarly, I think Soros believes his "meddling" is worth it too. His meddling in the former Soviet states is intended to promote freedom, same as Bush's policies in the Middle East.

I am having trouble following your point.

120 J.D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:10:58pm

OT - Steyn
On tsunami's shore

121 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:12:15pm

#101 Sarah D

I've read both (actually, most of her books), and Atlas Shrugged was/is one of my favorites. But, Ayn was an egotistical unrealistic nut.

Do you see the lunacy of what you've written? From your posts I know you are rather bright. On the one hand "Atlas Shruged was/is one of your favorite books but she was an egotistical nut"? Who gives a shit what you thought of her personally?

Ayn Rand was the GREATEST PHILOSOPHER ever born. She is truth and her treastise is the only one that man ought to be living by. She "got" it and everyone else were psuedo feel good collectivist clowns that love ideas not people and whose philosophies have been responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions.

RAND IS THE VOICE OF REASON. I STAND BY THAT.

122 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:12:25pm

OT

[Link: www.heritage.org...]

US is no longer on the list of the 10 freest economies.

123 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:13:12pm

113 I understand...

124 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:13:43pm

#121 AtlasShrugged

But she didn't live by her own writings...really. That's why.

Be a bit skeptical.

125 Megan  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:14:23pm

Will Soros spend billions to try to win this? Vote Kofi!

126 ASD  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:17:19pm

Breaking News! Dan Rather will report of a memo recently fabri... , Uh discovered that Michael Moore actually voted for Bush! This could sway this election to Annon.

127 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:18:40pm

El Cid,

The very propaganda article you link accuses Soros of being part of the Zionist conspiracy:

Or maybe just a Zionist? The most cynical of all observers might note that George Soros is a member of a group that has demonstrated itself to be hostile to the success of the Ukrainian state, and that in fact has an overriding interest in a Ukrainian economic collapse.

Pray tell, how is anything in your article more credible than stories in the Arab press blaming "Zionists" for every imaginable world crisis? It's the height of irony that members of this site -- who provide themselves on being critical of the Arab and MMM propaganda (and particularly the "Zionist" claims) -- are totally willing to fall for the same sh*t hook, line and sinker when it suits their purposes.

128 Sea Salt  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:20:12pm

OT: Check out the "rated lowest comments" from Amazon for:

The Trouble with Islam : A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith
by Irshad Manji


[Link: www.amazon.com...]

My God, the willfull blindness. Just listen to them.

129 transferthem  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:20:42pm

Maybe a tie would be a fair result. Mind you, poor old kofficrap has been landed with the job of sorting out the tsunami. This is most unfair as michael moron's stomach rumbles probably caused the erthquake to begin with. So maybe awarding the title to kofficrap would be the fair thing to do.

This leaves michael moron in the still enviable position of being a second rate idiot. Which we all knew before voting started.

130 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:23:21pm

#124 Sarah D

the analogy here being how she lived vs what she wrote.

I don't how she lived. I desperately care about objectivism. And I advocate it violently (metaphorically of course).

I do not admire Ayn's lovelife. I respect and live by OBJECTIVISM

My point being - I dont give a flying f*ck about what that what went on in her personal life but i desperately care about the philosophy she espoused

131 Axiom  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:24:08pm

Dang guys. How can anyone be ahead of Dan Rather this year?

Anyone remember if Rachelcakes was leading after the first round of voting? I think she came back and won the final five.

132 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:25:21pm

#130 AtlasShrugged

I admire the fact that you are able to remove the philosopher from the philosophy. I cannot.

Objectivity, in my mind, failed her.

133 mika.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:27:52pm

Soros was born in 1930? So during the start of the war he was 10? Don't you think these charges against him seem a little ridiculous?

134 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:28:21pm

Sarah Be Objective!

135 Axiom  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:29:28pm

You gotta love socialists that are in the currency markets. It's the one place where socialism for the most part can only pad your portfolio and promote your socialist politics.

I don't know if there is a way to tell, but perhaps Mr. Soroschwartz had a lot of investments valued in dollars that were held in Euro holding nations.

136 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:32:35pm

#135 Axiom

That is because governments have tried as hard as possible to eliminate commodity money. Remember how Roosevelt stole 292 million ounces of gold, and made it illegal to transact with it until the early 70's.

Have you ever heard about alternate currencies like the Liberty Dollar or Goldmoney?

137 blogaddict  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:34:07pm

George Soros is not an idiotarian. Evil? You decide: [Link: www.thestreet.com...]

As for Michael Moore, he is the absolute antithesis of an idiotarian. An idiotarian has to have a sincere earnest do-good quality. That's why Jimmy Carter fits the bill; Kofi Annan might, depending on one's reading of him; likewise Dan Rather. But Moore? He is a duplicitous lying guy who knows every single step of the way what his agenda is, and it is to destroy. Not an idiotarian!

Please, fellow LGFs, come to your senses! ABM--Anybody But Moore for idiotarian of the year.

138 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:35:16pm

#134 AtlasShrugged

I prefer realistic.

:-)

139 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:38:21pm

AtlasShrugged

I too, cannot separate the Philosopher from the Philosophy...The philosopher is the origin or basis of that philosophy...

140 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:38:30pm

Funny, if one goes to the main page of Texanista's anti-Soros propaganda link in 61, one sees the following:

Iraq Resistance
Report For 12-26
(cheerleading the deaths of Americans and the "puppet" Iraqis fighting with us):

Puppet police commander assassinated in Baghdad.

A source in the puppet police announced that Resistance fighters had liquidated a prominent commander of the puppet police in an armed attack Sunday southwest of Baghdad.

And of course, a bevy of anti-Semitic articles:

THE UGLY ISRAELI

Americans Beaten
By Jews For Walking
Palestinian Kids
To School

HOLOCAUST
FUND

Holocaust Fund
Investigated
For 'Unusual'
Money Transfers

Zionist Israel's
Exploitation Of
The Holocaust

And more anti-American madness:

911 ANALYSIS

German Engineers
Analyze 911 -
Say Bush Is Lying


I'll say it again -- it's amazing that folks on this site are linking to anti-Semitic and anti-American tripe to support their specious contention that Soros is "pure evil." Until someone can link to a site not dripping with anti-Semitism, I consider the case closed.

142 texanista  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:40:20pm

"Roosevelt stole 292 million ounces of gold"
Didn't the government pay market rate for that gold that was remitted?

143 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:40:39pm

OT

Did anyone catch Rather lately? CBS online has an article, apparently from him:

The Race To Save Millions

He spent time aboard the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, which is operating in the Indian Ocean as the U.S. military plays a critical role getting relief where it's needed.

And NOT where it can fight terrorists.

One beacon of hope on the shattered island of Sumatra is a small airfield near the capital city of Banda Aceh. It is the forward staging ground for all relief efforts in the area hardest hit by the tsunami. It is also where Rather continued his report on a U.S. Navy helicopter flight bringing aid to a town cut off, and in desperate need of help.

Notice that Rather rides with our soldiers, but doesn't talk about what a fabulous job they're doing.

144 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:43:32pm
145 DocDublU  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:43:57pm

I voted for Kofi and The Disengenuous Smear Merchant Who't Name Shall Not Be Spoken. They are both worthy candidates who each richly deserve the Fiskie. However, let's put the two candidates into context, shall we?

Kofi is, in many respects, a powerless pimp suckling at the teat of the UN corruption machine. I think he might be an excellent candidate for the Presidency of the International Olympic Committee after he retires as UN SECGEN.

MM is a much more virulant and malevolant source of anti-American propoganda, and has been rewarded for his sickening efforts with riches beyond his wildest dreams. He has grown powerful, and drunk on that power. He is artful in manipulating the mass media, who fawn at his every utterance. He has the backing of two of the most powerful smut merchants in Hollywood, the Weinstein brothers, which has allowed him to distribute his distortions and outright lies around the world to an eager, America-hating mob of supercillious French, cowardly Spaniards and seething Islamofacists.

And, if that weren't bad enough, MM constantly disgraces my beloved Detroit Tigers by constantly pulling a size 11 ballcap featuring the "English D" down over his bloated skull full of moonbat guano and smirking into the nearest camera.

MM, please come forward and accept your Fiskie, right over your head.

146 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:44:15pm

#139 Bubblehead

I too, cannot separate the Philosopher from the Philosophy...The philosopher is the origin or basis of that philosophy...


What are we talking about here? How dare you discard brilliant human thought? Do you not live in your own moral universe? Do you judge Plato on his homosexual peccadillos? What exactly can't you reconcile?

147 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:45:19pm

#142

That is not the point. By banning commodity money (gold) which is impervious to inflation except in extraordinary cases (Mansa Musa), the government crippled the function of money, and allowed it to enact interventionist policies not possible in the presence of a commodity money. These interventionist policies resulted in ever-increasing ripples of negative effects, which were followed by more of the same interventionist policies in an attempt to rectify the initial harm. The government could pay back the "market rate," but in fiat money subject to the whims of politicians.

148 rtheyserius  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:46:45pm

Just voted for Kofi, the multicultural buttboy of the world.

149 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:48:26pm

George Soros is a guy who uses his money to wreck things and hurt people. I'm glad he got ZERO for his $25 million wasted on sticking a knife in our backs on November 2nd.

I wrote to his web site in Sept or Oct to tell him he's got precisely one vote when we have elections and that his billions don't earn him a single extra ballot.

His site responded to me by putting me on their email list.

Argh!

150 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:48:30pm

144 Rayra

Funding MoveOn.org? Funding every seditionist group during the campaign season? Evil.

So anyone with whom you disagree is evil? Anyone who supported Kerry is evil? Let's see, I guess that means my brother is evil, my dad was almost evil, but he cured himself at the last second, most of my friends are evil...

There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and calling them evil. I don't like Soros one bit. And the stuff I've read by him (Crisis of Global Capitalism, Bubble of American Supremacy) has been whacky.

Not evil.

151 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:49:04pm

Sarah and Bubble
Ad hominen

One of the most often employed fallacies, ad hominen means "to the man" and indicates an attack that is made upon a person rather than upon the statements that person has made. An example is "Don't listen to my opponent; he's a homosexual."

152 DocDublU  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:51:55pm

ot

Hey ED in TEXAS. What gives?

[Link: seattletimes.nwsource.com...]

Are we set to see a once in a generation collision of 3 powerful storm systems this weekend?

153 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:52:47pm

George Soros, damnit!

154 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:52:58pm

#151 AtlasShrugged

Who was attacking? Cannot I dislike your apparent diety? Am I allowed?

Give me a break.

155 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:54:27pm

George Soros decided to spend a bunch of his million$ to topple the President of the United States.

What right has he got (a guy who topples entire national economies on his own) to decide to topple OUR PRESIDENT?

I think Soros is evil.

156 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:55:23pm
157 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:58:10pm

An argument is a series of propositions intended to support a conclusion. These propositions are statements, which may be falsified, about the nature of reality. The mouth or hand from which these statements emanate, is immaterial to their falsity, or the validity of the argument. There is no relation between the eccentricities of the person who thought of those arguments, and the arguments themselves, which has an effect on the validity of those arguments.

Even the biggest idiot in the world may utter a sound argument. Even the most intelligent man may utter a AAA-3 syllogism.

Not only does Ayn's fixation on salsa music have no bearing on her arguments, but those arguments themselves lead one to not give a shit about her personal habits.

158 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 7:58:20pm

#153 Sarah

Cannot I dislike your apparent diety?


Not a diety, not hocus pocus, not witchcraft...Brilliant philosophy and truth.

Yours was an ad hominen attack, a fallacy - completely lacking in intellectual honesty. I didnt attack you I merely called you on it as I respect your opinion, considered you argument, and found it completley lacking in merit

159 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:00:18pm

156 Rayra

I'm having trouble divining the cause of your affinity for a scum-sucking bastard like George Soros, an individual that just pumped what? $35M? $50M? into trying to subvert our National election.

If you had that kind of money, perhaps you'd have given a comparable amount to Bush. Would such donations qualify as "subversion"? Which donations qualify as "subversion" and which qualify as legitimate participation in the electoral process? Be specific.

160 mika.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:00:20pm

#144 Rayra

Not really.

If, for example, in 2000 you shorted tech stocks on the nasdaq, and you made a fortune slaughtering tech pigs, does that make you evil?! How is Soros any different here? He found his pigs in the currency markets, and all the kudos to him for having the gonads to bet everything he had, and taking em pigs to the slaughter haus! I only wish I was half as gutsy.. :(

161 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:02:22pm

Waaay OT

Holy crap!

There's a helicopter hovering over my house and the spotlight is shining in my backyard. There's a couple of police cars on the next street with their lights flashing. I have no idea what's going on, but I locked all my doors and windows.

162 hepcat  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:02:48pm

Preorder Today

sorry everybody book
...with a foreword by Ted Rall

The $14.95, 256-page sorry everybody: an apology to the world for the re-election of George W. Bush book will be in stores in time for the inauguration and will feature images that reflect the apologetic and frustrated feelings of many Americans after the election.

So writes James Zetlen, neuroscience student at University of Southern California and the mastermind behind sorryeverybody.com, the Web site that became the water cooler around which people gathered to share their collective grief about the results of the 2004 Presidential election.

163 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:04:08pm

BTW,

Ted Rall's position so far down on the ballot HAD to have affected the outcome. I demand an investigation.

:^P

164 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:04:14pm

#161 Spiny Norman

Hope you're not running a Meth Lab...

165 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:04:47pm

#158 AtlasShrugged

Ayn was a product of her Communist upbringing. She found an outlet in Objectivity.

Never forget that she never got beyond her athiest past. Ayn had NO mercy, no forgivness. No empathy, no sympathy. She had no concept of love.

In the end she got none of those things either.

166 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:05:33pm

158 AtlasShrugged,

It's wasn't an ad hominem attack, it was pointing out Rand's hypocrisy. Failure to practice what she preached. Don't kid yourself, it does detract from her writings. Just like those self-righteous environmental advocates -- like John Kerry -- who drive SUVs.

Kinda takes away from his liberal credentials, doesn't it? Same thing with Rand.

167 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:05:55pm

OK, now they've moved a couple of houses north of me.

I really didn't want fugitives paying me any visits...

168 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:07:20pm

#121 AtlasShrugged

Ayn Rand was the GREATEST PHILOSOPHER ever born. She is truth and her treastise is the only one that man ought to be living by. She "got" it and everyone else were psuedo feel good collectivist clowns that love ideas not people and whose philosophies have been responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions.

There are some among us who prefer not to worship philosophers.

169 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:09:06pm

#166 Abu

Bullshit! What takes away from her writings. NOTHING!
]Talk about the goddamn work

170 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:09:50pm

#161 Spiny Norman

That happens all the time here. I just lock and load. Who knows what they're looking for.

I had one hover for over two hours one night. Have no idea what it was about.

I need to get a date with a cop...inside information!

:-)

171 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:09:53pm

#164 Bubble Girl

Not me.

However, in the past 3 years, two meth labs have been busted within a quarter-mile of my parents, who live about 2 miles south of here. Their next-door neighbor has already moved to AZ, and my dad's looking at property in Tehachapi...

172 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:10:05pm

#165 Sarah

Frank loved and adored her...but why are we talking about this

TALK ABOUT THE WORK!

173 Dances With Dhimmis  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:11:36pm

#140 Abu Maven

I'm Jewish and I despise George Soros. While my "devil" remark was strictly tongue-in-cheek, I do loathe everything this man stands for.

Now don't get me wrong; I'm not defending the link that Texanista posted. That site looks like it was authored by the same folks who brought us the Ewige Jude, and you're right in the sense that nothing brings out the Jew-hating scum of the world more rapidly than an unpopular figure like Soros.

However, and please forgive me if I've gotten the wrong impression about you, I'm getting the feeling that you consider any criticism of Soros to be an act of anti-Semitism, or in my case, self-hatred.

Please indulge me. Is there any criticism of Soros that you consider valid, or are any invectives that are hurled at this egregious man strictly verboten by virtue of who he is?

174 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:12:27pm

#172 AtlasShrugged

I did, see #165 again.

175 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:13:47pm

169 AtlasShrugged,

Forget about Rand for a second. Does Kerry's driving an SUV take away from his pro-environment stance, or can we take Kerry's pro-environment stance at face value?

176 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:14:07pm
177 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:14:34pm

Rightasrain

What worship? I believe in meritocracy, self worth, personal value.

Abu and Sarah

You allow a relation between the validity of an argument and the person from whom that argument comes. Your belief that there is any connection between a proposition and the person who says it is a fallacy.

178 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:15:34pm

#170 Sarah D.

That happens all the time here. I just lock and load. Who knows what they're looking for.

They must've found whoever it was: the copter's gone, the cop cars are still there.

Yes, things are generally quite boring out here... although I did see someone I knew get busted on Cops.

179 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:16:26pm

Abu, Rand and Kerry in the same sentence...thats a moral inversion.
Pass the mushrooms

180 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:16:37pm

Atlas

No, I never did attack Rand, reread what I said. I said I also factor in the philosopher along with the philosophy. Nothing more... Sorry, I'm not a one type of "philosophy" person. I would have driven the Behavioralists quite mad, me and Skippy Moment, for sure. :)

181 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:18:05pm

#178 Spiny

You call that boring?

Yes, things are generally quite boring out here... although I did see someone I knew get busted on Cops.
182 Cog  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:18:33pm

Dont vote Michael Moore, because it will be one more feather in his cap. He will use it as more publicity.

Kofi Annan might actually be offended, not that he has any scruples or morales left. Self-preservation is his only concern.

183 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:19:14pm

#175 Abu

Does Kerry's driving an SUV take away from his pro-environment stance, or can we take Kerry's pro-environment stance at face value?

If Kerry uttered the proposition, "I am opposed to driving SUV's," this evidence shows that his statement is false. It does not have any bearing on the validity of his arguments- it shows he has lied about himself.

It does not, however, have any bearing on the validity of his arguments for environmentalism. They must be falsified by means of environmental observation such as was done by Pat Michaels.

184 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:19:21pm

173,

You loathe the billions of dollars he's given to Eastern European countries?

No, I don't consider any criticism of Soros to be anti-Semitic in nature. I just found it interesting that a concensus of "Soros is pure evil" was building on this board, but no one could produce any evidence of his alleged evilness. When I asked for proof, I got two links, both of which were overtly anti-Semitic and promoted the notion that Soros was a "Zionist."

I find it ironic that such "Zionists-are-behind-it" sites are being linked to on this site.

Incidentally, I happen to know one of Soros' sons. Nice kid.

185 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:21:41pm

Atlas is a philosopher lover and nothing is allowed other than that. I don't happen to agree with many philosophers, and I note that most are athiests.

Ayn said what she said, wrote some books, and enjoyed a time of popularity. She died unenlightened and alone. Therefore her philosophy didn't work for her. Why should I follow in her path?

186 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:22:54pm
187 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:23:23pm

Abu

Pshew, Bubble of American Supremacy, when I first glanced at that post I thought you were referring to me, I saw the "Bubble" and thought, oh God, what did I do now?

188 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:25:10pm

180 Bubblehead

No, I never did attack Rand, reread what I said. I said I also factor in the philosopher along with the philosophy. Nothing


You allow a relation between the validity of an argument and the person from whom that argument comes. Your belief that there is any connection between a proposition and the person who says it is a fallacy.

... Sorry, I'm not a one type of "philosophy" person. I

Have no idea what this means...you live by oppsoing philosophies...as in Sybil? Every action we make, evey action we take is a manifestation of the philosophy we live by(and some us die by). I live by freedom freedom freedom.
There is a spectrum between freedom and slavery, once you consider that gray area you are finished. There is no turning back

189 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:25:15pm

#178 rayra

Well said. And I believe there were some question about how he earned all his billions.

George Soros and the Rothschilds Connection

Not a single Western newspaper has so far uncovered the fact that the Rothschilds group linked with George Soros was at the hub of the vast illegal network of the BCCI.

He has not used his billions to advance the cause of good, or help his people, he's used it to undermine the political process, and is on record as saying he was going to defeat George Bush at any cost.

George Soros, one of the world's richest men, has given away nearly $5 billion to promote democracy in the former Soviet bloc, Africa and Asia. Now he has a new project: defeating President Bush.

Soros's Deep Pockets vs. Bush

190 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:26:36pm

176 Rayra

repeated incidents of falsified (D) voter registrations

Yeah, the Democratic Party itself is guilty of that. And so are the Republicans too, I am sure. So both the Democratic Party and Republican Party are "pure evi"l? Do you have any evidence that Soros himself sanctioned any of the "lies" about which you complain?

When you call someone like Soros "pure evil," the term ceases to have any meaning. Hitler was pure evil. Soros is a bizarre, self-righteous dweeb. But not pure evil.

And no need to call me names. Now that's an ad hominem attack.

191 PDM  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:27:17pm
His funding of the filth generated by MoveOn and their Bush=Hitler ads, his funding of Americans Coming Together (ACT) and their 'buying-votes-with-crack-cocaine' and repeated incidents of falsified (D) voter registrations, the utter LIES spewed by Center for American Progress - which he established / funded.

That ISN'T disagreement, dummy, its SUBVERSION OF THE PROCESS / DEMOCRACY. It's Evil.

You make a good case there Rayra. Soros is scum.

192 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:27:59pm

Sorry for this OT

Michael Moore has written a letter to Congress and it's up on his website, about the Ohio recount and blah, blah, blah...they are discussing it on Daily Kos...

193 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:28:47pm
194 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:29:05pm

#188 AtlasShrugged

You have negated any premise you posted by repeatedly calling Bubble Girl, Bubblehead.

You may F*ck off now.

195 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:30:02pm

#177 AtlasShrugged

What worship? I believe in meritocracy, self worth, personal value.

You wrote this earlier:

She is truth and her treastise is the only one that man ought to be living by.

This sounds like a religion and you sound like you're recruiting.

196 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:30:48pm
197 Dances With Dhimmis  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:31:01pm

#184 Abu Maven

No, I just despise the some of the other things that he has done with his ample wealth. Here's an article from Fortune magazine (assuredly not an anti-Semitic rag) that will help (I hope) illuminate some of the reasons why I dislike him so:

George Soros Is Mad as Hell
He made billions anticipating blowups. Now he thinks George Bush is creating one.
George Soros owns no private plane, no Caribbean island, no yacht, no ranch in the West, no collection of Old Masters. When he travels to Budapest, the city where he was born and survived the Nazi occupation, he stays in an unfashionable hotel that happens to be nestled in the middle of a beautiful park where he can go for vigorous walks. He travels solo, his wife preferring to stay in the U.S. while he tours his international philanthropic empire. Walking onto a stage in Europe, he is illuminated by the flashes of little pocket cameras that audience members hold over their heads. But offstage he waits in line at the bar for his Campari like everybody else, looking a little lost. He is naturally reserved, and that is somehow accented by his precise Central European inflections. In a public setting he can appear strikingly alone, even lonely, a private man who has found himself living a very public life.
His demeanor belies his influence. George Soros is one of the most successful investors of all time. Even now, though he manages little or no money besides his own, he can move markets with a ten-minute appearance on cable television. Detractors have accused him of destabilizing world currencies and wrecking the economies of entire nations. He is appealing a French conviction for insider trading. He has received humanitarian awards too numerous to count.
Soros has always been a polarizing figure, and over the next few months he is sure to become even more of one, especially in the U.S., where his name has never had the totemic power it does in Europe. At the age of 73, George Soros has found new purpose: He has recast himself as a fierce, angry, partisan critic of the Bush administration and American policy. In what amounts to a barnstorming tour that has taken him from town halls in Seattle to a school of international relations in Baltimore to the World Economic Forum in Athens, Soros has argued that the U.S. right now is in the midst of a crisis. He believes that both at home and abroad, the American government has put in jeopardy the values of openness and democracy in a search for...

Link

The last section of the article, which I highlighted in boldface, pretty much sums up what George Soros is all about these days. And anyone who adheres to such misguided notions about this country and its intentions is no friend of mine, or America.

198 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:31:26pm

183 pooklebinky

If Kerry uttered the proposition, "I am opposed to driving SUV's," this evidence shows that his statement is false. It does not have any bearing on the validity of his arguments- it shows he has lied about himself.

Well, what it really shows is that he's full of shit. Same with Rand.

Granted, it doesn't mean that what Rand was saying was bullshit. But it does illustrate that Rand herself was a hypocrite.

199 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:32:01pm

185 Sarah

Atlas is a philosopher lover and nothing is allowed other than that. I don't happen to agree with many philosophers, and I note that most are athiests.


It is unnecessary for you to "explain" me to the curious masses. I am an objectivist, a passionate zionist, and a believer in FREEDOM AND CAPITALISM. Period. Unqualified freedom.
Whether Ayn Rand was able to find personal happiness is of no import to me, completely irrelevant. Her theory of objectivism is one that was designed with and for the true nature of man.

200 mika.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:32:11pm

#173 Dances With Dhimmis

Same. Soros got all of my 5 votes.

I think Soros is an big idiot wasting his money the way he is. I wish he would invest it in Israel. There are many small companies here that could use the funding. And an infusion of a billion dollars into Israeli venture capital could be well rewarded.

201 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:32:40pm
202 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:32:58pm

#149 rightasrain:

I, also, wrote to Soros's website just after the election, to, well... gloat. I got some e-mail form letter thanking me for my support.

AtlasShrugged:

Take a chill pill, dude. Don't worship sci-fi novels. Those L. Ron Hubbard people concern me, and so do you.

203 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:33:03pm
204 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:33:29pm

{{{embraces infinity}}}

This thread is getting bitter.

205 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:34:47pm

187 Bubble Girl

Abu

Pshew, Bubble of American Supremacy, when I first glanced at that post I thought you were referring to me, I saw the "Bubble" and thought, oh God, what did I do now?

"The Bubble Girl of American Supremacy" -- must be another one of Soros's wacky theories. :)

206 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:35:00pm
207 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:35:13pm

#195 Rightasrain

What worship? I believe in meritocracy, self worth, personal value.
She is truth and her treastise is the only one that man ought to be living by.
This sounds like a religion and you sound like you're recruiting.

RECRUITING FOR ABSOLUTE FREEDOM. YOU BETCHA RIGHT WHITE AND BLUE ASS I AM!

208 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:36:14pm

#199 AtlasShrugged

Whether Ayn Rand was able to find personal happiness is of no import to me, completely irrelevant. Her theory of objectivism is one that was designed with and for the true nature of man.

If it didn't work for her, then it sounds like something was sorely lacking (even if many of the ideas are sound.)

It's like taking advice on how to be happy from someone who ended up committing suicide.

Why couldn't she make her philosophy work for her?

209 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:37:13pm

That the ideas I love may come from a hypocrite has no bearing on their validity. Nor would they be more valid if the person who spoke them were an ideal practitioner.

210 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:38:02pm

Atlas

Nooo, in order to function one does not need follow a philosophy...You have free will, I'm sure some philsopher came up with that, they've come up with everything...that's what they are, thinkers...You probably need Rand as your moral compass in order to function, I go willy-nilly, it's worked so far...

Except for this guy

If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. There's no use being a damn fool about it.
211 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:38:03pm

189 Skippy Moment

He has not used his billions to advance the cause of good

George Soros, one of the world's richest men, has given away nearly $5 billion to promote democracy in the former Soviet bloc, Africa and Asia.

Looks like you've just defeated yourself in an argument?

212 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:38:21pm

#204 Pooky

Put that can of gasoline down and back away from the fire... we've had quite enough trouble for one night. *H3* ;-)

213 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:38:36pm

#209 pookleblinky

Then you would believe Castro if he said that all human life was sacred.

214 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:39:44pm
215 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:40:14pm

#213 Sarah D

Do you believe it is more important what a person says, or what they do? Or should I say what speaks loudest, what a person says, or what they do?

Just curious. Cause I'm not sure where the Castro thing is coming from and where you are going with it.

216 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:40:26pm

{{{cuddles against a syllogism}}}

217 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:41:43pm

Atlas

You probably were born with FREEDOM and CAPITALISM already in your blood, Rand just solidified it for you...

218 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:41:45pm

#202 Gunslingah

Sci-fi novels? never read one, never touch the stuffL L.Ron Hubbard, you are watching too many Cruise movies dude.
Pick up Rand's Romantic manifesto
Rands greatest girft was her passioante simplicity. It is a shame that some people get so caught up in their personal disagreements with Ayn that they are unable to review any of her works objectively

If you can put Rand nd Hubbard in the same sentence it is clear you don't know shit about what I am talking about

219 mika.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:41:58pm

#193 Rayra


Classic LLLiberal fuckstick that you are, you ignore the very real suffering of millions of people his currency manipulations brought about - you don't have any clue at all about the economic impacts of his little stunt do you.


You a stupid commie fsckhead! Go grab that hammer and sickle and your karl marx, and get fsck outa here!

220 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:42:11pm

#213

The proposition "All human life is sacred" does not depend on who says it for its validity. The existence of Hitler, Castro, and Pol Pot falsify this proposition. It does not matter who utters it, or its refutation.

221 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:42:39pm

197 Dances with Dhimmis,

I agree with you. I don't like Soros, and I think his fanatical Bush hatred is disturbing. I also find my brother's fanatical Bush hatred disturbing (and my brother is very far from LLL).

In any event, neither is "pure evil."

222 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:43:27pm

#216

syllogism = 1. Logic. A form of deductive reasoning consisting of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion; for example, All humans are mortal, the major premise, I am a human, the minor premise, therefore, I am mortal, the conclusion.
2. Reasoning from the general to the specific; deduction.
3. A subtle or specious piece of reasoning.


which one are you embracing? and who has brought you to this? which poster?

223 LC LaWedgie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:43:34pm

(Getting a running start) I nominate Gen. Joseph Hoar for 2005.

224 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:43:59pm

SkippyMoment

:) :)

225 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:44:47pm

PIMF!

Falsifies*

226 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:46:16pm

#220 pookleblinky

You didn't answer the question:

Then you would believe Castro if he said that all human life was sacred.

Answer the question please. It's a yes or no.

227 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:48:31pm

#224 bubbles

:-) back at ya.

#220 pookleblinky

The proposition "All human life is sacred" does not depend on who says it for its validity. The existence of Hitler, Castro, and Pol Pot falsify this proposition. It does not matter who utters it, or its refutation.

What does this mean? Do you believe what a person says is more or less important than what they do?

228 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:48:36pm

#218 AtlasShrugged:

See, that's what I'm talking about. Ayn Rand was a fiction writer, but, when anyone criticizes her work, you launch into personal attacks. I mean, we can sit here and debate the relative merits of objectivism all we want, but when you feel compelled to insult and question the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you... it just seems that you are veering dangerously close to the whole cult of personality thing.

Just my opinion... I could be wrong...

229 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:48:53pm

Bubble Girl

FREE WILL is the very essense of Rand's philosophy. Yes.
She outlines in master strokes how THE WORLD (not just little ole me) should be free and explains in the smallest detail how society must function in order for man to be free.

WHAT IS IT YOU ALL ARE RAILING AGAINST- FREEDOM?
FREE WILL?

230 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:49:39pm

I know it's temporary, but I just cast a tie breaking vote!

Yippie!

1. Michael Moore 3067
2. Kofi Annan 3066

231 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:50:15pm

#215 skippyMoment

Think for a moment on communist history. Did any truth matter? What one said and what one did were two totally different issues. People were condemned for thinking.

Ayn counteracted this with Objectivity...very admirable...but hardly someting to wordhip.

232 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:50:27pm

#208 Rightasrain

Why couldn't she make her philosophy work for her?


Do you even know what you're talking about?

233 mardukhai  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:51:44pm

These should be different awards.

1. Kofi is an amiable useful idiot who probably doesn't understand what he does.
2. Michael Moore is a cynical, narcissistic liar who simply doesn't care.

Why not separate Fiskies appropriate for each?

Kofi for Idiotarian of the Year.
Mikey for Narcissitic Moonbat of the Year.

234 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:52:05pm

#228 gunslingah

Or you just might be right!

235 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:52:39pm

#226

Sarah, I did. There is no relation between the proposition and the person who says it. If Hitler says, "I believe all human life is sacred," his actions shows that he is lying. It does not, however, have anything to do with the truth of the proposition "All human life is sacred."

It matters not whether the speaker is the most evil, genocidal, child-raping dingo-snuffing cat-stomping ant-Semite, the proposition has nothing to do with him. His actions can prove that he is lying, but they do not say anything about the proposition or argument which he advocates. This is the basic principle which allows rational people to argue about ideas, and not get sidetracked into biographical nastiness.

236 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:53:01pm

Atlas,

That's Dr. Bubble Girl, to you...

Bubblehead, Sybil? How bout Inflexible Anal Retentive Narrow minded twit?

237 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:53:01pm
238 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:53:33pm

Rayra,

According to one of the links, Soros has given "$15 million for America Coming Together; $3 million for John Podesta's new think tank; and $2.5 million for MoveOn.org"

Ok, so $20 million to defeat Bush.

$5 billion to spread freedom and democracy in the former Soviet bloc, Africa and Asia.

Pure evil I tell you.

239 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:53:34pm

#234 Sarah D:

My ex-wife would certainly never admit to that possibility!

240 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:53:37pm

#229 AtlasShrugged

She outlines in master strokes how THE WORLD (not just little ole me) should be free and explains in the smallest detail how society must function in order for man to be free.

Down to the smallest detail, eh? Doesn't sound very free to me. :)

WHAT IS IT YOU ALL ARE RAILING AGAINST- FREEDOM? FREE WILL?

Atlas, for heaven's sake - SHE DIDN'T INVENT THESE CONCEPTS.

The principles of both FREEDOM and FREE WILL have been in the Jewish Bible for 3400 years.

I don't care how good you think her fiction novels were, but atheism is NOT a cure-all end-all even if it happens to agree with religious principles like FREEDOM and FREE WILL.

241 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:55:09pm

#231 Sarah D.

Think for a moment on communist history. Did any truth matter? What one said and what one did were two totally different issues. People were condemned for thinking.

Ayn counteracted this with Objectivity...very admirable...but hardly someting to wordhip.

Okay, so let me see if I'm following this, you are arguing that even though Castro and communisim is for the people, in truth and in action, it was anything but?

I'm not familiar with Ayn's writings, so I won't enter that part of the conversation.

But, I'm curious if you are a believer in the principles of communisim as a theory, or not a believer. Incidentially, some postulate that communisim had its roots in the bible, specifically stemming from the book of Acts. The problem with it is it wasn't sustainable then in the days immediately following Jesus' time on earth, and it's bastardize version we know today is even less supportable. The people in Cuba are suffering under it's oppression and lack of 'community'. IMHO

242 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:55:57pm

Several of these people would be shot dead if they lived in another nation, or in a different time. They are pure traitors who can and will lend much comfort to the enemy.

I am constantly torn over whether America is greater for the supreme tolerance necessary to let Ramsey Clark et al go on breathing, or whether instead America is supremely foolish and short-sighted and for the same reason.

Some of each, I suppose. Never forget though people like those on the list caused America to lose a war in Vietnam and thereby ushered in a Communist orgy of killing not seen since the Holocaust.

I also understand that at different times in her history America would imprison or even execute traitors for far less than many of these vermin have done.

243 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:55:58pm

Atlas -

Nope, not railing against Free Will, or Freedom, it just that somehow I am able to have Freedom and a Free Will without following Rand...HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE, I DON"T FOLLOW RAND...I MUST NOT KNOW FUCKING ANYTHING ABOUT FREE WILL BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW RAND>>>>>>>

244 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:57:38pm

#235 pookleblinky

Bullshit. When you say something, and people believe/listen to it, words count. The words are directly related to the person who spoke them. To try and state that they aren't is really stupid.

You are trying to say that words cannot be attributed to the speaker.

Wrong.

245 Catttt  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:59:04pm

I hate Ayn Rand's books - booorrring. (Yawns)

The movie on her life was good, though. :)

246 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:59:44pm

Rayra,

Go re-read the thread. Numerous people called Soros "pure" evil. Not a strawman. Simply responding to the actual arguments advanced on this thread.

"Beat Bush at any cost"? Big deal.

I personally was on board with the "beat Kerry at any cost" bandwagon this election? Guess that makes me pure evil? Or is it just evil?

And by the way, why do you get so angry? You keep saying I'm dumb and stuff. Give me a break.

247 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 8:59:57pm
248 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:00:02pm

"If you can be an atheist or a rabbi in a society, without being burned alive, cut up, wife raped and tortured, property stolen, and children sold; then you are in a free society. A free society is free precisely because it does not matter whether you are an atheist or a rabbi." Groucho Marx

249 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:01:20pm

237 Bubble girl

Bubblehead, Sybil? How bout Inflexible Anal Retentive Narrow minded twit?


ROTFLMAO...cant beleive I wrote Bubblehead, must have been fruedian as it was completely unintentional.

And while I may be anal in a different context, I am hardly narrow. I am not a flipflopper and have a spine of steel. I believe in my strong opinions becuase they are data based. Twit is not even deserving of a retort so I forgo the one-up -manship ...so that a productive thought provoking argument might ensue

we live in hope

250 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:01:25pm

#239 gunslingah

Sorry, I should have stated...you might be right unless you're a man!

:-)

[Ex-wives are a bitch...I am one, so I know!]

251 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:01:55pm

PIMF
believe
Freudian

252 elBarto  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:02:05pm

The truth is the truth regardless of who utters it. The person may not actually take actions or make decisions that are consistent with the utterence but it does not negate the truth of the statement. "All life is sacred." Is the truth wether uttered by Ghandi or Stalin. I believe that Ghandi meant it/believed while Stalin,who by his actions showed that he did not.

253 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:02:08pm

243 Bubble Girl,

Rand is Pure Truth. You don't know what freedom is. You think you do, but you don't. You are a slave.

You people just don't understand. Rand is The Answer.

/AtlasShrugged Off

254 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:03:31pm

#241 skippyMoment

Okay, so let me see if I'm following this, you are arguing that even though Castro and communisim is for the people, in truth and in action, it was anything but?

Yeah.

255 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:03:35pm
I like to keep a bottle of stimulant handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy.
256 NY Nana  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:03:48pm

soros (may his name be obliterated) may have been born a Jew, but is no friend of the Jews..he is a self-hating Jew, and a shanda (disgrace) to us: In rare Jewish appearance, George Sorossays Jews and Israel cause anti-Semitism

It´s not often that George Soros, the billionaire financier and philanthropist, makes an appearance before a Jewish audience.
It´s even rarer for him to use such an occasion to talk about Israel, Jews and his own role in effecting political change.

So when Soros stepped to the podium Nov. 5 to address those issues at a conference of the Jewish Funders Network, audience members were listening carefully.

Many were surprised by what they heard.

When asked about anti-Semitism in Europe, Soros, who is Jewish, said European anti-Semitism is the result of the policies of Israel and the United States.

"There is a resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe. The policies of the Bush administration and the Sharon administration contribute to that," Soros said. "It´s not specifically anti-Semitism, but it does manifest itself in anti- Semitism as well. I´m critical of those policies."

"If we change that direction, then anti-Semitism also will diminish," he said. "I can´t see how one could confront it directly."

That is a point made by Israel´s most vociferous critics, whom some Jewish activists charge with using anti-Zionism as a guise for anti-Semitism.

The billionaire financier said he, too, bears some responsibility for the new anti-Semitism, citing last month´s speech by Malaysia´s outgoing prime minister, Mahathir Mohammad, who said, "Jews rule the world by proxy."

"I´m also very concerned about my own role because the new anti-Semitism holds that the Jews rule the world," said Soros, whose projects and funding have influenced governments and promoted various political causes around the world.

"As an unintended consequence of my actions," he said, "I also contribute to that image."

In the past, Mahathir has singled out Soros and other "Jewish financiers" for financial pressure that Mahathir said has harmed Malaysia´s economy.

After the conference, some Jewish leaders who heard about the speech reacted angrily to Soros´ remarks.

"Let´s understand things clearly: Anti-Semitism is not caused by Jews; it´s caused by anti-Semites," said Elan Steinberg, senior adviser at the World Jewish Congress. "One can certainly be critical of Bush policy or Sharon policy, but any deviation from the understanding of the real cause of anti-Semitism is not merely a disservice, but a historic lie."

See rest of article. I repeat: he is a bastard.

257 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:04:52pm

#250 Sarah D:

...you might be right unless you're a man!

NOW, you're sounding like the ex-wife I used to love!

;)

LOL

258 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:04:53pm

Abu

LOL --We are all in fine form tonight...There isn't a full moon out, is there?

259 pookleblinky  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:06:13pm

#254 Elbarto

Yes! You made a point without calling anyone a twit, pulsating sack of shit, or a commie!

The miracles of rational thought!

260 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:06:21pm

#257 gunslingah

Not a man...and I do understand!

Ohhh, that rhymes! Cool!

261 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:06:52pm

What is Objectivism?

My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
— Ayn Rand, Appendix to Atlas Shrugged

Why is Objectivism a System of Ideas?

I am not primarily an advocate of capitalism, but of egoism; and I am not primarily an advocate of egoism, but of reason. If one recognizes the supremacy of reason and applies it consistently, all the rest follows.
— Ayn Rand, "Introducing Objectivism" The Objectivist Newsletter Vol. 1 No. 8 August, 1962 p. 35

What is the Objectivist View of Reality (Metaphysics)?

Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.
— Ayn Rand, "Introducing Objectivism" The Objectivist Newsletter Vol. 1 No. 8 August, 1962 p. 35

More stuff...

Objectivism holds that there is one reality, the one in which we live. It is self-evident that reality exists and is what it is: our job is to discover it. Objectivism stands against all forms of metaphysical relativism or idealism. It holds it as undeniable that humans have free will, and opposes metaphysical determinism or fatalism. More generally, it holds that there is no fundamental contradiction between the free, abstract character of mental life and the physical body in which it resides. And so it denies the existence of any "supernatural" or ineffable dimension for spirits or souls.

I'm absolutely NOT impressed.

It's atheism. So what?

262 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:07:33pm

#256 NY Nana:

Thanks. Back to the thread:

George Soros is a pure, rotten, evil bastard who, after stealing his fortune, tried his level best to steal our election. The Fiskie may not be the reward he deserves, but it is the best we can offer at this particular time.

263 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:08:49pm

OT

Oliver Stone blames blue-state bigots for the failure of his cruddy film "Alexander":

Stone blames 'fundamentalism' in US for 'Alexander' flop
LONDON, Jan 5 (AFP) - Oscar-winning writer-director Oliver Stone blamed "raging fundamentalism in morality" Wednesday for the frosty reception that his new film "Alexander" is getting in his native United States.

In London for its British premiere, Stone, 58, said that after a career full of cage-rattling work, he thought a biopic of Alexander the Great, the 4th century Macedonian-born conquerer, would be "a safe subject".

But he said he was "quite taken aback by the controversy and fierceness of the reviews" which greeted its US release, including outrage at the film's suggestion that Alexander was bisexual.

"Sexuality is a large issue in America right now, but it isn't so much in other countries," he said.

"There's a raging fundamentalism in morality in the United States. From day one audiences didn't show up. They didn't even read the reviews in the south because the media was using the words: 'Alex is Gay'."

Waaah! Nobody went to my campy bellyflop-of-a-movie! It must be those evil Republicans. You're all a bunch of fundie redneck knuckleheads! Now go to my movie, you loathsome morons!"

264 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:08:50pm
265 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:08:54pm

El Barto

Yes, the same goes for art, we can't hate the artist can we if the art is worthy.

Except Hitler was an artist, as was John W Gacy...

266 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:09:46pm
man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life

If it feels good, do it.

/eyes rolling

267 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:10:27pm

256 Nana

The fact that he lumps himself in there as a supposed "cause of anti-Semitism" shows that he's moronic, not evil, or as you say, a bastard.

268 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:10:39pm
269 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:11:15pm

#252 elbarto

The truth is the truth regardless of who utters it. The person may not actually take actions or make decisions that are consistent with the utterence but it does not negate the truth of the statement. "All life is sacred." Is the truth wether uttered by Ghandi or Stalin. I believe that Ghandi meant it/believed while Stalin,who by his actions showed that he did not.

Perhaps you are right when you say that truth is truth regardless of who says it, but if the person saying it isn't truthful, if their actions belie that truth, how can what they say be truth?

Yes the idea of the statement "All life is sacred." is a truism for most, but not for all. If it was true for all, then we wouldn't have the deathpenalty, or abortions, or murders, or genocide.

You can accept the statement as truth, but if someone doesn't accept that truth, or doesn't validate that truth?

I guess my point is your point. That your actions are more important than what you say. To say 'All life is sacred" then to act contrary invalidates your statement.

270 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:11:54pm
271 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:12:55pm

AtlasShrugged, you've been curiously quiet lately.

Wassup?

272 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:13:24pm

264 Rayra

That's beautiful. Nothing finer than seeing somebody try a cheap shot when they don't know who or what they are speaking to, and getting SPANKED for it.

My thoughts exactly with respect to your comments in this thread.

273 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:13:41pm

#196 Rayra

you seem to have left off '...and retrieved my firearm, readying it for use'.

Yes, I know. I haven't owned a firearm in years and I suddenly felt very naked...

#263 zombie

Waaah! Nobody went to my campy bellyflop-of-a-movie! It must be those evil Republicans. You're all a bunch of fundie redneck knuckleheads! Now go to my movie, you loathsome morons!"

I think we can safely state that Stone has jumped the shark.

274 Catttt  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:14:40pm

256 NY Nana

Ok, I've been studying up on "Idiotarian" - I'm starting to lean towards Soros (metaphorically). Your post gave me a shove in that direction.

A. Idiotarian world views have at their center a desire for something good.

B. Idiotarians won't consider anything that seems to run contrary to the world they want.

C. Because of A, they are at least complicit in evil, and often actively helpful to evil causes.

Rather is kind of a self-serving hack.
Annan is kind of a useful idiot hack.
Soros - ahhh.

Think I am starting to understand.

275 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:14:42pm

Zombie,

I am always suspicious of a film review from Larry King, Ebert and what's his name, or any critic... Anytime an ad for a movie runs for over two minutes you can bet the film sucks...

276 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:14:58pm

So if man's highest moral aspiration is to be happy, then did Ayn Rand's unhappiness make her a slut? :)

277 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:15:25pm
278 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:15:35pm

#254 Sarah D

Okay, so what's the disagreement with pookleblinkey? It sounds like you are both saying the same thing, but differently.

Or are you arguing that what someone does doesn't matter if he says the right things?

279 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:16:10pm

#266 rightasrain

If it feels good, do it.

is that really how you see this?

man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life


please reread several times and THINK. I know you have it in you

280 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:16:50pm

#250 Sarah D:

Oh, and Sarah, don't feel bad about being an ex-. It's all part of the learning process...

281 mika.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:16:59pm

#256 NY Nana.

Me thinks Soros himself is a source for antiSemitism. (Just kidding). I wonder what Soros would say to such a charge? And why do I have the feeling that idiot would agree.

282 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:18:55pm

Soros was using his millions in order to make billions from the falling dollar, something he was betting on if the election went his way...Everything he did was for future gains of his own...Not evil, but he could be in the next 007 movie as an Archvillain, along with Mike The Fatman Moore, and Kofi Annan...

283 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:19:54pm

I haven't read every post of this thread, but I can see we're having a big argument about Ayn Rand. My only comment is: Anthem was a great book. Regardless of her personal life or whatever else she wrote, on the basis of that one work she earned my admiration.

Oh yeah, one more thing: you're all a bunch of commie pea-brained inbred ragpickers. There -- now I feel like I fit right in.

284 Sarah D.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:21:12pm

#278 skippyMoment

Not that I think I need to speak to anyone other than pookleblinky on this issue...

But, this is the quote:

Sarah, I did. There is no relation between the proposition and the person who says it. If Hitler says, "I believe all human life is sacred," his actions shows that he is lying. It does not, however, have anything to do with the truth of the proposition "All human life is sacred." It matters not whether the speaker is the most evil, genocidal, child-raping dingo-snuffing cat-stomping ant-Semite, the proposition has nothing to do with him. His actions can prove that he is lying, but they do not say anything about the proposition or argument which he advocates. This is the basic principle which allows rational people to argue about ideas, and not get sidetracked into biographical nastiness.

You agree with this?

I'll check in the morning, night al!

285 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:21:18pm

265 Bubbles

Yes, the same goes for art, we can't hate the artist can we if the art is worthy.

Except Hitler was an artist, as was John W Gacy...

But within their hearts was evil. We all have within us the capacity for good and evil. Our inner voice, the conscience within us keeps most of us from giving voice and hand to the evil.

Some are devoid of that voice, the are sociopaths (sp?). They have no shame, no guilt, no sense of right or wrong. Anything I want, that fills my needs, that gives me what I want is okay.

If I have a maniacally plan to murder innocents for whatever perverse pleasure or reason I have, then that's okay. Yes, they may be artists, they may be charming, and extremely intellengent (i.e. Ted Bundy), but within in their souls is evil, and it is in control.

286 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:21:19pm
287 NY Nana  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:22:47pm

#262 gunslingah

I agree with you totally. He will get the same 'reward' as arafart ,who I hear is still quite dead. Ah, arafish flambé , with soros boiling hot sauce!

#262 abu maven

Sorry, but I agree to disagree.

G'nite, all!

288 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:23:37pm

All life is sacred, says the pro-choice people...AC CLarke is a known pedophile, Kinsey used pedophiles to get his info on the sexuality of babies...

289 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:24:12pm
290 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:25:08pm

AtlasShrugged,

I'm an Orthodox Jew.

How in the heck do you expect me to respond to the worship of atheism?

Being Orthodox Jewish is an incredibly happy way of life, but it's not directly the whole POINT of life. It's the result of loving G-d and doing the right things according to what He asks us.

As the Master Psychologist of the Universe, G-d knows how to make people happy. It really works.

I'm not asking you to become an Orthodox Jew. It takes years of study and moving into an Orthodox Jewish community. It's highly discouraged to convert unless a prospective convert absolutely insists (at which point the person is very welcomed and loved.) I'm not asking you to do this.

Don't demand that I worship atheism either.

291 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:25:31pm
292 gunslingah  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:25:55pm

#287 NY Nana:

Amen. May Arafat and Soros share the same athlete-foot-ridden shower stall in Hell.

Good night.

293 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:26:22pm

Skippy,

Any "art" from those types should be destroyed by Hazmat teams, no matter how good, whatever evil touches. BTW, evil sometimes shows itself as beauty...Just like the good looking psychopath...

294 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:28:28pm
295 PDM  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:29:24pm

#266 rightasrain,

man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life

If it feels good, do it.

/eyes rolling

Yep, it sounds like pleasure seeking to me. The pursuit of happiness (well, pleasure/joy really, not happiness) does not have anything to do with moral purpose (whatever that is). But striving and succeeding at living a moral life can bring one a lot of happiness (and joy).

296 Abu Maven  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:30:13pm

Rayra,

I took cheap shots at you? Whatever. I'm going to bed. Good night.

297 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:30:19pm

Soros DOES actually think he personally spread anti-semitism by wrecking an Islamic nation's economy or two.

Not that he cares.

298 PDM  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:30:56pm

#292 gunslingah,

May Arafat and Soros share the same athlete-foot-ridden shower stall in Hell.

And may Soros drop the soap!

299 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:30:59pm

Rayra

I agree, I also think Laurence, the spinning spewing head, O'Donnell fits the term too. He honest to God was a Kerry loyalist, I think he would have committed Hari Kari for Kerry...

300 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:31:25pm

#295 PDM

The pursuit of happiness (well, pleasure/joy really, not happiness) does not have anything to do with moral purpose (whatever that is). But striving and succeeding at living a moral life can bring one a lot of happiness (and joy).

ABSOLUTELY!

Thanks, PDM!

301 Catttt  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:31:34pm

Rayra:

And almost all the criticism of the film that I've seen says it just flat out SUCKS


Yep.

Plus - don't the Greeks know that bisexual activity was very common for men in ancient Greece?

302 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:32:34pm
303 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:32:49pm
#263 zombie
...blue-state bigots...

#286 Rayra
...nasty 'Red Stater' criticism...

Duh, thanks for catching this, R. Blue-state, Red-state -- hell, I can never keep it straight. Why in the world, at the very moment in history when the Democratic party turned Stalinist, did they assign the "blue" states to the Dems and the "red" states to the Rethugs? I sniff a Goebbelsesque "Big Lie" to keep everyone confused.

The kids coming of age in the twentyteens will have to call themselves "blue-diaper babies."

304 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:32:51pm

#284 Sarah D

First, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, I'm just trying to understand what you said, and meant.

Now to your question to me. Do I agree with this?

Sarah, I did. There is no relation between the proposition and the person who says it. If Hitler says, "I believe all human life is sacred," his actions shows that he is lying. It does not, however, have anything to do with the truth of the proposition "All human life is sacred."

Yes, I agree with this statement. Now for the rest of the quote.

It matters not whether the speaker is the most evil, genocidal, child-raping dingo-snuffing cat-stomping ant-Semite, the proposition has nothing to do with him. His actions can prove that he is lying, but they do not say anything about the proposition or argument which he advocates. This is the basic principle which allows rational people to argue about ideas, and not get sidetracked into biographical nastiness.

If I'm understanding his point, then I do agree. If I'm not getting his meaning, then I don't completely agree.

If a person does the evil deeds and has the hatred in his heart that Hitler had, and the others he mentioned, their actions do matter. They validate what they say as either truth or as a lie to the people living under it. The Jews, Christians, and others that lived under the Natzi tyrany and occupation, that were subjected to the horrors of the camps, knew Hitler to be a liar. The rest of the world for a time turned a blind eye to what was going on and 'believed' Hitler for a time until the truth was fully revealed. Those people took him at his word, and didnt' question his actions which contradicted what he said.

Does that answer your question to me?

Pleasant dreams.

305 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:34:08pm

So as we traversed through this thread we worked through all the ends and outs and came to conclusions which are related to the thread...Free Will in action...

306 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:35:10pm

Night Skippy :)

307 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:35:17pm

One of my favorite books is called "Happiness" by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin!

He also has incredibly good books on "Kindness," "Patience" and "Anger" (controlling it.)

This reminds me that it's time to read these again (they're fairly small books but really wonderful!)

Well, the "Anger" book is big, actually. :) It's a big subject.

308 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:35:42pm

#293 Bubbles,

I agree. Evil frequently desguises itself in beauty.

309 skippyMoment  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:37:56pm

Nite bubbles

310 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:37:59pm

#290
Rightasrain

I am a Jew

I am a Passionate Jew...a major donor UJA, philanthropist and builder of the microbiology unit at Ben Gurion University, A Lion Of Judah, exectuive Vice President Of Solomon Schecter Jewsih Day school, and part of a think tank at UJA 59th street. ampung other things You need not explain your orthodoxy to me.

It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with freedom and insuring freedom for everyone of this earth and not being led down the road to hell with good intentions with feel good kleft wing socialist collectivsm.

Tikun Olam!

311 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:38:54pm

RightAsRain,

Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Frankl...
There is one book that I hold in my heart, that tiny kernel of hope and happiness they found during the most darkest of days...

312 ajaxlikid  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:41:12pm

Vote for Jacques! (I've checked twice that I was in the Fiskie topic...)

313 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:44:03pm

#310 AtlasShrugged

It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with freedom and insuring freedom for everyone of this earth and not being led down the road to hell with good intentions with feel good kleft wing socialist collectivsm.

Right wing atheism is better than left wing atheism, but atheism itself is NOT the right goal for everyone of this earth.

It breaks my heart to see Jews who throw themselves into atheism, but then again, Jews are driven by the quest for G-d and sometimes this energy ends up going elsewhere.

Atheism is NOT the answer.

Jews flocked by the millions into European society and away from Judaism (unless it was into a less observant form of it) and this was followed by the Holocaust in Europe.

Atheism is NOT the answer. Karl Marx was Jewish, too. It didn't make Communism any better because it came from a Jew.

314 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:47:33pm

I am not an atheist...objectivism and judiasm are not mutually exclusive...you dont own the Jewish Faith and who are you to judge the quality of another's religios passion
shame on you

315 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:51:04pm

#313 rightasrain:

Atheism is NOT the answer.

But a society that guarantees the freedom to choose atheism if you want to IS the answer. That's what America is all about. It's essential to let everyone make their own decisions for themselves -- even if you think they're making stupid decisions.

316 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:53:06pm

Atlas,

I am not an atheist...objectivism and judiasm are not mutually exclusive...you dont own the Jewish Faith and who are you to judge the quality of another's religios passion

You're promoting atheism. Why do you promote it if you don't believe in it?

It's atheism, which is VERY different from believing in G-d:

More generally, it holds that there is no fundamental contradiction between the free, abstract character of mental life and the physical body in which it resides. And so it denies the existence of any "supernatural" or ineffable dimension for spirits or souls.

You're trying to recruit people into this as if it's NOT incompatible with leading a religious life.

Orthodox Judaism DEFINITELY includes the belief in G-d. I didn't make this up.

shame on you

I'm not a fan of atheism. I don't care who promotes it.

Shame on you for claiming that it doesn't contradict a belief in G-d, if this is what you're really saying.

317 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:55:39pm

#315 zombie

But a society that guarantees the freedom to choose atheism if you want to IS the answer.

It's not the answer for all of mankind when so many will want to choose to be religious instead.

Freedom OF religion means that NO ONE can come along to tell me that I NEED to be an atheist when I sure as hell know that it's NOT what I need.

It's not THE ANSWER. It's a choice.

318 AtlasShrugged  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:58:09pm

Right as rain

I am going to bed. This has kept me up too long. I am exposuing FREEDOM and the society Rand advocates is one where man is free and not oppressed by others in any way. *vis a vis religion, redistribution of the wealth, taxation ie Alan Greenspan was in her inner circle

This is what this Jewess is about...end of story
Get off the atheism kick...FREEDOM OF RELIGION

I am speaking to the whole of society, construction and fabric of the institutions in which we live

319 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:58:55pm

Look at how flipping hostile Atlas is being to me for rejecting the idea of Randism (and that atheism is compatible with the belief in G-d.)

Atlas might as well be a missionary knocking down my door and insisting that I convert to Randism OR ELSE.

It stinks!

320 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 9:59:04pm

What makes America so great is that it represents the middle road, the reasonable and workable midpoint between extremism on both sides. It is neither totally anti-religious and atheistic, like Soviet Russia, nor is it a theocracy, like Iran. And as soon as it drifts toward one side or the other, the magic political pendulum of American society pulls it back toward the center. This is exactly why everyone hates us -- from the anti-God European Left to the religious fundamentalists of Islam on the right -- and exactly why America is the model that the world will eventually follow.

321 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:00:30pm

This comes from a site on Ayn Rand and objectivism:

More generally, it holds that there is no fundamental contradiction between the free, abstract character of mental life and the physical body in which it resides. And so it denies the existence of any "supernatural" or ineffable dimension for spirits or souls.

This is atheism.

322 Athos  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:02:00pm

#320 Zombie

Very well said.

323 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:03:01pm

#320 zombie

What you wrote is WHY not atheism isn't right for everyone.

America NEEDS a strong religious base, which it has.

It's not the whole country, but America needs for a great many people to be religious rather than encouraging everyone to be atheist.

324 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:04:09pm

Correction to #323:

"What you wrote is WHY atheism isn't right for everyone."

325 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:04:22pm

[thinks for a moment about whether to wade into this Orthodox Jew v. Objectivist debate, and then decides not to]

But I'll plug my blog by linking to this months-old post about Ayn Rand's Jewishness (courtesy of National Review humorist Florence King -- who's great even if you're indifferent to Rand, the subject of her essay).

Also, on topic: Here's a picture of front-runner Kofi Annan as a telepathic über-Diplomat™. (Created with this Online Superhero Generator -- sure, Cox & Forkum'll do better caricatures of the finalists, but in the meantime, those of us with more limited artistic ability can have fun.)

326 Athos  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:05:42pm

#299 Bubble Girl,

He honest to God was a Kerry loyalist, I think he would have committed Hari Kari for Kerry...

I think it's time someone gently places a Tanto in front of him, and reminds him that he has yet to finish his duty.

327 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:08:53pm

#317 rightasrain 

#315 zombie
But a society that guarantees the freedom to choose atheism if you want to IS the answer.

It's not the answer for all of mankind when so many will want to choose to be religious instead.

Freedom OF religion means that NO ONE can come along to tell me that I NEED to be an atheist

Then we're in full agreement. I want to live in a world where you are free to beleive as you wish and live a life based on your beliefs. And where I can do the same, and so on. And no one can force us to believe or act against our will. And sure, people can come up to us and say, "Join my philosophy! Join my religion!" And we can just as freely say, "Go jump in the lake, jerk!" Which is exactly what's happened on this thread -- it's American spirit in action.

It's beautiful to watch -- brings tears to my eyes.

328 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:09:26pm
[Rand] never denied that she was a Jew, but "it had no significance to her." Jewishness conflicted with Rand's belief that "man is a being of self-made soul," so she chose to be un-Chosen.

Atheist, in other words. Thanks for the link, TM!

Despite their overwhelming Gentileness, Randian heroes come off as metaphors for Jews because they are beset by irrational forces that try to bar them from the professions and use their virtues against them to bring about their destruction.

Interesting, and rather sad, if you ask me.

Thanks again!

329 Scotch  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:10:39pm

now playing:

Patsy Cline
off the Definitive


"Crazy"

330 Athos  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:14:01pm

#323 rightasrain

America NEEDS a strong religious base, which it has.

It needs a strong moral base - which is based on what is and generally accepted right / wrong as opposed to a strong religious base. I will say, though, that a religious belief goes a long way to establishing that moral base - but one can also argue that in its way, atheism is a belief (almost a religion) to those who follow it.

The belief of the Founding Fathers that the rights come from a higher being / Diety, and not from a government and the Judeo-Christian foundation of moral right / wrong are our strengths. Too many other systems and governments believe that only governments, or rulers, or the people (in a true democracy) can define what rights the citizens / people have. Those systems have failed or are failing compared to ours.

331 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:17:08pm

#327 zombie

And sure, people can come up to us and say, "Join my philosophy! Join my religion!" And we can just as freely say, "Go jump in the lake, jerk!" Which is exactly what's happened on this thread -- it's American spirit in action.

Absolutely!

It's beautiful to watch -- brings tears to my eyes.

It's how our nation came to be.

Thanks very much!

332 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:23:45pm

#330 Athos

It needs a strong moral base - which is based on what is and generally accepted right / wrong as opposed to a strong religious base. I will say, though, that a religious belief goes a long way to establishing that moral base -

A very long way.

The belief of the Founding Fathers that the rights come from a higher being / Diety, and not from a government and the Judeo-Christian foundation of moral right / wrong are our strengths. Too many other systems and governments believe that only governments, or rulers, or the people (in a true democracy) can define what rights the citizens / people have. Those systems have failed or are failing compared to ours.

The Founding Fathers were deists, but American society was very heavily influenced by the OT (Jewish Bible) via the early American pilgrims who were obsessed with the ancient Hebrews.

Early Americans saw themselves in the New Promised Land and one of the early suggestions for the American Seal was to show Moses leading the people of Israel out of Egypt.

It's more of an influence than most people realize.

333 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:33:14pm
It breaks my heart to see Jews who throw themselves into atheism

It shouldn't break your heart, rightasrain -- "atheism" is an umbrella term, as broad as "theism," which encompasses Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, some forms of Buddhism, etc.

Similarly, there are many worldviews under the umbrella of "atheism." While some, unfortunately, find their way to atheism out of hostility to G-d and never refine their views, others become atheists out of an inquisitive spirit -- at some point they find that their intellects and imaginations have outgrown the concept of G-d they were raised with, and so their intellectual honesty forces them to discard the concept. But sometimes, atheists in this latter category will re-discover the idea of G-d, perhaps with a new wrinkle that wasn't part of their formal religious upbringing, and find faith again.

So, while you may be heartbroken when Jews turn to atheism out of hostility towards G-d or their Jewish identity, you shouldn't be heartbroken if Jews reject G-d out of intellectual integrity, because they literally cannot make themselves believe in G-d any longer. You should consider the possibility that G-d designed their brains to embrace atheism, for reasons known only to Him, and that G-d continues to work on the hearts and souls of those who disbelieve in him on the conscious level.

334 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:38:18pm

There are a myriad of reasons as to why someone would chose to be an atheist...But since we still do not know how we came to be, sorry Evolutionists, and what happens to us when we die, you should at least have a little faith in God, just in case...

335 Trumpeter  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:39:16pm

Voting is really hard this year.

I like Dan Rather at lot as a representative for the Mainstream Media; Michael Moore is too insginificant, except for is influece over stupid people; Kofi Annan is worthy the award, especially taking into account his profession; Noam Chomsky deserves an award for a lifetime of dishonesty; Colin Powell would probably be my favorite, but...; Jacques Chirac is my top candidate, let him win.

336 Bubble Girl  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:41:25pm

I once knew some Fundamentalist Christians who were quite strict, they kept giving me pamphlets,...Where will you be in Eternity?

I wanted to send one back and write on it, "Hopefully not stuck with you people. Now that would be Hell...

337 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:42:35pm

#333 Throbert McGee

So, while you may be heartbroken when Jews turn to atheism out of hostility towards G-d or their Jewish identity, you shouldn't be heartbroken if Jews reject G-d out of intellectual integrity, because they literally cannot make themselves believe in G-d any longer.

It breaks my heart because the proof of G-d is overwhelming, especially for Jews.

You should consider the possibility that G-d designed their brains to embrace atheism, for reasons known only to Him, and that G-d continues to work on the hearts and souls of those who disbelieve in him on the conscious level.

No, I do NOT believe that G-d requests that some people to turn away from Him.

I believe that He is always calling to us. Sometimes we don't listen.

One can only hope that we all become better listeners, and goodness knows, we could all use lessons in this.

338 mika.  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:46:10pm

#247 Rayra

Your blog-fu is weak.


I'm learning. It will get better with practice, I promise. :)

339 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 10:50:20pm
#323 rightasrain
America needs for a great many people to be religious rather than encouraging everyone to be atheist.

One might also argue that America needs a great many people to accept the scientific method, which in some ways stands in counterpoint to religion. As Athos says, what America needs is a strong moral base, which you are assuming is the same thing as a strong religious base. But what you're specifically thinking about is a Judeo-Christian religiosity. Not all religions have the kind of morality you agree with. You wouldn't want Anton Lavey, an Aztec High Priest and Osama bin Laden -- all highly religious people -- running the country, would you? Conversely, it's also possible to be highly moral and not religious at all.

America needs to maintain its deep moral principles -- most of which are, admittedly, derived from Judeo-Christian religious traditions -- without compelling its citizens to personally subscribe to any one particular religious view. It's entirely possible to have a country almost completely populated by "atheists" yet still governed by religious moral principles. And it's possible to have a country totally composed of very religious people, with a goverment that neither endorses nor enforces any religious stance. "Moderation in all things," as fagboy poofter queen Alexander the Great might have said. Which is what America is all about.

The moderation part, I mean, not the poofter part.

OK, well, the poofter part too, if you insist.

340 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 11:01:57pm

Some criticisms of Ayn Rand:

Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism have been the subject of a great deal of criticism from various groups. Many academic philosophers criticize Rand not only for her sweeping denouncements of most of the philosophers in history, but also for her practice of explicating her philosophy in popular fiction, rather than publishing in any sort of scholarly journal.
Opinions on this practice vary, from the idea that Rand was so disgusted with modern philosophers that she was unwilling to pay attention to them, to the counteridea that Rand was aware that her work would not stand up to any serious dissection by trained thinkers. There are also many more complicated objections to Rand's philosophy on the basis of epistemology and metaphysics.
In addition, most theistic religions object both to Rand's characterization of religion as an evil that held people back, and to Rand's moral scheme, in which selfishness is the basic virtue, and altruism is evil (it should be noted that Rand's definitions for the words "selfishness" and "altruism" is somewhat different than that used by most people.)
Rand's characterization of women in several books has been a source of contention, as it is felt that women are often portrayed as secondary or adjunct to the heroic men of the stories.
Finally, Rand's personal life has been the source of much controversy. It has also been claimed that Rand's novels, in which she laid out Objectivism's heroic "Randian man", are made up of very two-dimensional characters. The Objectivist heroes are all intelligent and unencumbered by doubt. Some are very rich (although Howard Roark, Hank Rearden, and John Galt started out poor). Some of them seem to have no negative qualities at all, at least from an Objectivist view (Hank Rearden, however, is taken advantage of because of his social naivete). The antagonists are usually weak, pathetic, full of uncertainty, and lacking in imagination and talent.
In addition, the novels are alleged to contain errors or omissions in terms of the reality of social interactions, economics, technology, and history. Rand replied to such criticism (and in advance of much of it) with her essay "The Goal of My Writing" (1963). There, and in other essays collected in her book The Romanic Manifesto: A Philosophy of Literature (2nd rev. ed. 1975), Rand makes it clear that her goal is to project her vision of an ideal man, that is, not man as he is, but man as he might be and ought to be.
341 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 11:10:15pm

#339 zombie

One might also argue that America needs a great many people to accept the scientific method, which in some ways stands in counterpoint to religion.

[growl]

The scientific method has absolutely ZERO contradiction with Orthodox Judaism. This is why a shout for "Is there a doctor in the house?" in my synagogue would lead to a stampede.

As Athos says, what America needs is a strong moral base, which you are assuming is the same thing as a strong religious base. But what you're specifically thinking about is a Judeo-Christian religiosity.

Our country was founded on this, so yeah, I do think it's important.

Conversely, it's also possible to be highly moral and not religious at all.

Um, yeah, I know. I've mentioned this many times. It's called being a "Noachide." Please google it.

America needs to maintain its deep moral principles -- most of which are, admittedly, derived from Judeo-Christian religious traditions -- without compelling its citizens to personally subscribe to any one particular religious view.

YEAH, which is what you were crying about a bit ago. THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING HERE: A REFUSAL TO BE COMPELLED TO ADOPT SOMEONE ELSE'S PHILOSOPHY PER THEIR DEMANDS TO DO SO.

Judaism doesn't even encourage converts, much less ask for them.

It's entirely possible to have a country almost completely populated by "atheists" yet still governed by religious moral principles.

Possible, but not likely. We will never know because we have a nation with a great many religious people here.

And it's possible to have a country totally composed of very religious people, with a goverment that neither endorses nor enforces any religious stance.

Our government doesn't formally endorse any religious sects.

We have freedom of religion here.

342 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 11:14:58pm

zombie, I'm in a religion BEST KNOWN for its doctors, so you don't have to suggest that religious people need to be more scientific.

I'm a software engineer myself.

I'm not asking anyone to be in my religion, I'm just saying that it's very, very good for America to have a lot of religious people here (which we already do.)

This goes AGAINST the idea that the only thing man should follow is Objectivism, which is the suggestion that got all this started.

Ok?

343 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 11:20:39pm
You should consider the possibility that G-d designed their brains to embrace atheism, for reasons known only to Him, and that G-d continues to work on the hearts and souls of those who disbelieve in him on the conscious level.

No, I do NOT believe that G-d requests that some people to turn away from Him.

I'll just bet that if you asked your rabbi, he'd agree with me...

344 zombie  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 11:29:09pm
#341 rightasrain
The scientific method has absolutely ZERO contradiction with Orthodox Judaism

No argument there. Actually, I was thinking of certain other religions (which shall not be named) which occasionally have objected to the scientific method (i.e. amoral truth-seeking [not immoral -- amoral]) as a matter of religious principle.

rightasrain, I feel that we're pretty much on the same page, we're just looking at it from slightly different angles. But in essence we are in agreement on essential points.

345 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 11:46:22pm

#343 Throbert McGee

You should consider the possibility that G-d designed their brains to embrace atheism, for reasons known only to Him, and that G-d continues to work on the hearts and souls of those who disbelieve in him on the conscious level...
I'll just bet that if you asked your rabbi, he'd agree with me...

Well, I'm not going to ask my rabbi 'Do you think sometimes G-d designs a person to move away from Him rather than toward Him?'

We all have free will. We all have the ability to move towards G-d.

G-d did some kinda rough things to the Pharoah that made Egypt go through all ten plagues, but I think that was a unique situation. :/

346 rightasrain  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 11:48:14pm

#344 zombie

rightasrain, I feel that we're pretty much on the same page, we're just looking at it from slightly different angles. But in essence we are in agreement on essential points.

Yeah, I think it's quite possible.

347 Trumpeter  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 12:12:45am

The more ardent the philospher's followers show themselves, the less I trust the philospher.

I am not convinced that the word great should be used to describe philosphers or religious leaders, I prefer to use it about scientists and engineers.

348 hm  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 1:07:12am

Kofi is now asking for $ 977 million for the tsunami relief.

Suspiciously specific amount, I'd say.
I wonder how he worked that out down to the last million.

349 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 1:28:54am

I just saw this:

I am a Passionate Jew...a major donor UJA, philanthropist and builder of the microbiology unit at Ben Gurion University, A Lion Of Judah, exectuive Vice President Of Solomon Schecter Jewsih Day school, and part of a think tank at UJA 59th street. ampung other things You need not explain your orthodoxy to me.

Wow, pretty accomplished for a 19-year-old Randroid college kid.

350 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 1:41:36am

O.T.
While it is not without its spin, this is rather candid for our local rag. The effects of the new media and the election

351 Steve M  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 2:04:34am

Moving right on back ...

If Moore wins, it will be seen as a typical act by a right wing blog. Anan winning, on the other hand, will make people think. It will also generate interest and publicity for this site.

So, for the sake of LGF ...

352 Mike C.  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 2:36:15am

OK, OT. These time zone differences are a bitch. From an editorial in today's (Thursday's) Washington Times.

The public's muddled view of biotechnology is reflected in the results of a survey of 1,200 Americans, released in October 2003 by the Food Policy Institute at Rutgers University. In an 11-item true/false quiz in the survey, more than half of the subjects received a failing grade (defined as less than 70 percent correct). Only 57 percent recognized the falseness of the statement "ordinary tomatoes do not contain genes, while genetically modified tomatoes do." Perhaps most shocking, only two-thirds knew eating genetically modified fruit would not alter their own genes. Do the one-third who got this question wrong think that if they eat rabbit stew, they will begin to hop?

Please note that the people who flunked still get to drive, vote and procreate. It is to weep.

353 sound of freedom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 2:36:44am

#92 Atlas Shrugged

Rand changed my life. Some of her character names may have been a little lame, but the message was what mattered to her, as it should to all of us. Her

prescience

was mind-boggling. And Chambers was the idiot.

354 Luigi  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 2:38:07am

OT -- Surplus Population Watch

And up they go! Thai, Malaysian and Indonesian stock exchanges are now looking unstoppable.

Why are they so happy?

Don't they expect to be taxed in a rebuilding effort?

Does the business community expect to be aid recipients?

Do they expect to draw lots for the now-deserted beachfront real estate?

Doesn't charity begin at home in those joints?

355 ibmkeyboard  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 2:38:10am

i just found out that the reserves get an additional 1000 dollars per month for combat duty, and the national guard gets shit.

im sorry, but donald rumsfield is starting to piss me off, with the conduct of this war.
does anyone else agree with me? or am i just being paroniod?



#193 ibmkeyboard 1/6/2005 04:32AM PST

not that the reservests dont deserve the extra thousand, but the national guard men and women are in the same place, and bleeding all over the same frigging ground.

still pissed.

356 DocDale  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 2:53:18am

Now Australia's Evil Pilger is out of the running, I'm shilling for Kofi. He seems (mostly) to fit Lenin's original definition of 'useful idiot', although not above taking a bit on the side ('give them enough rope...'). So no bribes needed there Zulubaby! Rachel Corrie is, however, an even better exemplar of the species - but she wasn't on the list.

I came late to the Ayn Rand discussion, so have just read through the entire thread. I have to say I knew nothing of Rand's life - not even that she was Jewish. I read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead as a kid, and thought both a pretty good defence of small government and individual choice. I remember thinking both books were 'preachy' (something I've never liked in fiction); still, there was more than enough story there to keep me reading.

With regards to her life (and I'm not sure how her life contradicted her philosophical views), I suspect many philosophers fail to live up to their own philosophy, or otherwise express themselves in limited and inadequate ways. That may or may not detract from their philosophy. I do think it would depend on the circumstances (was theirs a lifestyle philosophy; did their actions directly contradict proscriptive/prescriptive demands made on followers etc).

Rand for me would be in trouble (my memory of her thinking is based largely on her economic views) if she accepted government grants in order to write her novels or supported market intervention in favour of pet projects, stuff like that.

If she died batty and lonely - well, lots of philosophers (and writers, and artists etc) do. It kind of goes with the territory. And as rightasrain & zombie pointed out, no-one is making anyone support her views, or anyone elses' views.

People can still shill for them, though.

Kind regards from downunder.

357 TMF  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 2:59:11am

Kofi stole the vote! I demand a recount! Where are my lawyers?!?!?!?

Anyone catch the Shepard Smith/FOX bit on the DU conspiracy lunacy last night? Those guys sooo read LGF its not even funny!

358 TMF  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:06:15am

Peggy Noonan on what the Dems need to do to be competitive:

Tell George Soros to fuck off!

The Groups--all the left-wing outfits from the abortion people to the enviros--didn't deliver in the last election, and not because they didn't try. They worked their hearts out. But they had no one to deliver. They had only money. The secret: Nobody likes them. Nobody! No matter how you feel about abortion, no one likes pro-abortion fanatics; no one likes mad scientists who cook environmental data. Or rather only rich and creepy people like them. Stand up to the Groups--make your policies more moderate, more nuanced, less knee-jerk.
359 Luigi  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:07:29am

In a particularly revealing display of malignant narcissism, Hollywood's own beached whale believes he and the other king maker power brokers gave us the wrong movie star to vote for.

"Who wouldn't vote for Caroline Kennedy?" he [Michael Moore ] went on. "Who wouldn't vote for Tom Hanks?"

Like I care what he thinks? His endorsement would be enough to send me and 90% of Americans stampeding in the opposite direction.

Michael Moore despises our wisdom. He thinks we are waiting to worship whoever is handed down from Hollywood valhalla. Tom Hanks, although he projects 'nice guy', has never been elected to anything. Reagan was 2 term governor of California.

360 Mike C.  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:21:53am

Just read through the last 100 or so posts on this thread, and damn if the time zone differences didn't screw me out of another rip-roaring argument. What a bummer !

Tried to read a Rand novel once - worse than trying to read Dante or Melville. Just very heavy plodding so far as I could tell. But hey - different strokes and all that.

I loved the arguments that atheism is compatible with some religious belief. Laugh out loud funny ! I guess nobody uses a dictionary any more.

But just remember folks, assuming you're Christian or Jewish or Muslim (or any monotheistic faith), an atheist only believes in one less God than you do, so don't get cocky !

361 DocDale  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:24:56am

# 360 Mike C.

Try living in a whole other country. I always miss great discussions - the best I seem to manage is a late summary.

I'd have to live like an owl to join in properly.

Kind regards.

362 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:31:52am
363 True German Ally  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:31:59am

I voted Guardian, the only true "useful idiot" on that list

364 RickZ  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:33:21am

# 261 & 266 rightasrain:

Quite a touching dissection of Rand you did. Hope it felt as good for you to write it as was for me to read it.

# 279 AtlasShrugged:

man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life

Let's examine Saddam Hussein in your context. Look at the
happiness his moral purpose brought to his own life, juxtaposed with the happiness his moral purpose brought to others.

/rolls eyes, indeed

# 302 Rayra:

Dart on in with the cheap-shots, ankle-biters.

What's this? Charles lets chihuahuas register? Maybe so. I have heard rumors of various threads going to the dogs.

# 330 Athos:

It needs a strong moral base - which is based on what is and generally accepted right / wrong as opposed to a strong religious base. I will say, though, that a religious belief goes a long way to establishing that moral base . . . /blockquote>

Islam is a religious belief. But without morals.

I think you were partially correct here: "The belief of the Founding Fathers that the rights come from a higher being / Deity, and not from a government and the Judeo-Christian foundation of moral right / wrong are our strengths." Yes, the Founding Fathers had a belief in a higher being/Deity, but Judeo-Christian ethics have played a significant role in the positive develoment morals*. The 10 Commandments are a shortlist for that moral base.

*This is a sweeping generalization, and specific indiviuals may not be appropriate reflections of that view.

# 339 zombie:

One might also argue that America needs a great many people to accept the scientific method, which in some ways stands in counterpoint to religion.

There are some scientists who would argue that when it comes to science, G-d is in the details.

365 RickZ  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:36:59am

OOPS! I don't know what happened with that last post if mine (# 34). Sorry. Preview, while great in theory and for readability, is for wimps.

366 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:38:56am
367 DocDale  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:41:08am

# 363 True German Ally

The Grauniad is Pilger's home away from home. He's always sounding off in its pages, espousing nutty lefty conspiracy theories, attacking the Australia he left twenty years ago and running the 'Americans brought it on themselves' line with respect to 9/11.

He was always my first pick - largely on the grounds that C & F can more easily cartoon an individual receiving the award. And he's as ugly as a hatful of monkey's bums to boot.

Agreed on the general tone of Al-Guardian, though.

Kind regards.

368 DocDale  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:42:01am

Monkeys' bums.

PIMF.

Kind regards.

369 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:43:26am
370 Photios  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:46:46am

Love reading the posts, as for now I'm undecided between Kofi Annan and Dan Rather (my wife especially hates Annan).

OT: I just sat through a 5.3 earthquake here in Muroran, Hokkaido, Japan. The epicenter was, it sems, in northern Honshu.

+Photi

371 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:47:25am
372 RickZ  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:47:52am

# 369 American Infidel:

If the award goes to Kofi, 'realwest' has elected himself, as the representative of NYC LGFers, to present Kofi the award at the UN, in full Scottish regalia.

373 True German Ally  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:51:15am

#367 Doc Dale

I was thinking of the Guardian's "highy successful" Ohio campaign.

Pilger is really someone I can't force myself to read, although I'm trying to stay informed about the LLL.

But Pilger, I just can't without wasting the last meal.

374 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:51:47am
375 Abu Messerschmitt  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:53:57am

CJ (a.k.a. 'The Boy') asked me what an Idiotiarian was, and as I flailed for an answer, it occurred to me that going back to the FAQ might better inform one's voting Decision. From the FAQ:

Idiotarian noun. A term of abuse for an advocate of what are deemed to be irrationalist and subjectivist values that have very little reference to the workings of the real world. The defining phrase of idiotarianism is "it is all the fault of the United States"

Kofi and Michael the Hutt easily meet the criteria. Danno, not so much. sorryeverybody definitely qualifies. George Soros probably qualifies, but he, like Dan, is more identified as a deranged Bush-hater, with the rest of their idiotarianism as background noise.

Mainly because I want to keep Michael the Hutt as the Susan Lucci of the IOTY, I'll probably vote for Kofi, although sorry-everybody is very tempting. Besides, both of the past winners Jimmy and Rachel, were hands-on terror enablers, and so is Kofi.

376 SunCat  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:57:17am

I must dissent with the majority (non-leftists allow this :-) ). Moore never could be taken seriously. But Dan Rather sat in Uncle Walter's seat.

377 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:57:42am
378 RickZ  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 3:59:49am

# 374 American Infidel:

On this 'Vote' thread from yertereday, start with 'realwest's' # 30 post here, and continue down for a few short posts. He's a election kleptomaniac, that 'realwest' is.

379 Mike C.  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:02:59am

# 361 DocDale

Oh, I did that living in another country (Qatar) for almost six years, but that was before the internet. Now I live in the good ole US of A. But the problem is that I don't work in the good ole US of A. So at the moment (and for the next solid month) I am in Beijing. I'll get back to the US for a week or so in early February, but then it's back here for another stint, followed by a stint in beautiful (NOT !) Karachi. Having to work for a living is a bitch.

380 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:03:26am
381 W-lover  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:05:33am

I voted for Kofi, MM, Blather AND Mary Mapes. I don't understand why she isn't getting more votes. She spent 5 years researching the TANG story...and for what? Forged memos. What a tool!

382 True German Ally  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:08:19am

Maybe it's just my definition but for me an idiotarian has to shoot himself in the foot somehow with what he does. Rachel Corrie was a perfect example for that.

MM makes millions with his "documentaries" so I'm not sure whether he's a true idiotarian (more of a vulture maybe)

Kofi, I don't know either. He won't get another UN term but his family should have skimmed the UN enough to retire in comfort.

Dan Rather (how do you do superscripts?)... yes, that's the man.

383 DocDale  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:16:36am

Now it's past my bedtime (12:12pm Australian EST). Very late for me - normally I disappear by about 10:00pm... I just had to read that huge Ayn Rand discussion. I find I learn something new everytime I come here.

Anyway, good talking to everyone (and True German Ally I understand your Pilger-allergy. If it's any consolation, that's how the majority of Australians react to him, too).

Good night lizards.

Kind regards.

384 Mike C.  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:17:31am

Well hell, it's bedtime here, so I'm signing off. BTW, it's Kofi for me. I think he meets True German Ally's criteria because I seriously believe he is shocked and dismayed that he may be held to account for his evil and stupidity, and I believe that being tossed out will cause him intense personal agony that will not be assuaged by the millions he's pocketed.

385 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:20:20am
386 RickZ  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:21:31am

# 382 True German Ally:

Try this site for hotmail tags.

387 J.D.  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:22:50am

#380 American Infidel
But the Saudis are "Our Friends™"...

388 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:29:30am
389 metalship  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:34:14am

It's Kofi Annan in a walk.
Lifetime Achievement Award...Ted Kennedy.

390 Mayor of Shadyville  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:39:26am

George Soros people!

Move on.org? This guy had the worst year of all. He dumped millions of dollars and hours of his personal time attempting to determine the outcome of the election. At least Mapes & Rather didn't waste all that money, and Fat Mikey actually made millions doing what he did. Yes folks, George Soros is the most deserving of this coveted award. John Kerry himself may not have wanted a change in the White House as much as this ass!

391 SoCalJustice  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:40:26am

Personally, I find Mapes' showing (or lack thereof) to be incredibly dissappointing.

Oh well.

I guess it's between Mr. "Oil for Food" and Mr. "Food and more Food."

392 langdon alger  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:40:41am

OT:

Fox reporting that Barbara Boxer will bring challenge to Ohio's electoral votes. The fun begins again...

393 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:53:33am

True German Ally,

Maybe it's just my definition but for me an idiotarian has to shoot himself in the foot somehow with what he does. Rachel Corrie was a perfect example for that.

I concur. Kofi isn't an idiotarian, he is corruption, incompetence, and evil personified. From a 1998 AP article...

Annan was the head of U.N. peacekeeping operations on Jan. 11, 1994, when the commander of U.N. forces in Rwanda, Maj. Gen. Romeo Dallaire, warned the world body that the Kigali government was planning to slaughter Tutsis and said he was making plans to confiscate weapons.

Dallaire, a Canadian, was in charge of 450 U.N. peacekeepers in the Rwandan capital.

In the fax sent to U.N. Headquarters in New York, Dallaire quoted a senior Rwandan security official as saying he had been ordered to register all Tutsis in Kigali for the purpose, he suspected, of "their extermination.''

Annan's office ordered Dallaire to neither protect the informant nor confiscate the arms.

Annan was aware of the order, said his aide, Iqbal Riza, who signed the response.

"I was responsible,'' Riza, who is still Annan's deputy, told the New Yorker when shown a copy of the order. "This is not to say that Mr. Annan was oblivious of what was going on. No. Part of my responsibility was to keep him informed.''

Annan has blocked probes to determine who saw the fax that ordered the Canadian commander to abandon his plan to intervene.

In a letter to the Belgian government last year, Annan refused to let Dallaire testify before a Belgian panel investigating the events in Rwanda because he did not believe it was "in the interest of the organization (United Nations)."

Deja vu all over again.

394 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:54:37am
395 ibmkeyboard  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:56:35am

just saw mickey moore on nbc morning show, raving about how we americans love a good movie actor for president, and how we all agree with the democrats, they just cant find a good runner. he said john kerry was not the one. bull shit, he tried to kiss john kerrys ass so many times, he started carrying toilet tissues in his pockets.
i want to vote for mickey moore, and vote often.
mickey moore, mickey moore, if he cant win it--- GREAT.

396 True German Ally  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 4:59:58am

Well Dan Rather probably won't be eligible in one year while Kofi's sh** may just hit the fan. Although I doubt that he will be tossed out before his term is up.

That's not how the UN works. But please let's check where that tsunami money is going.

397 Iron Fist[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:04:24am
398 RickZ  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:06:08am

From the NYTimes: The United Nations and the City

Just call me an obstructionist.

# 396 True German Ally:

CongratulationsTM.

399 Kofi Annan  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:06:55am

Vote or Face Resolutions!

400 True German Ally  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:07:26am

Dirk Diggler

Yes I saw a feature about Dallaire and Kofi on German TV. Kofi should never have made it to Secretary General in the first place, but then, he looked like a notch up from Boutros.

Rwanda is the biggest shame of the UN. But then there is Darfur, Congo, Oil for Food...

Let's make a distinction though between all those despicable UN bureaucrats and the field workers of UN relief organizations. Many of them really do a difficult job well.

I wish we could get someone like Arnie or Giuliani to "clean house" in the UN headquarters.

401 WriterMom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:08:25am

Good morning!

Nice update on the battle for the coveted prize.

OT: Palestinians Using Women and Children for Terror Attacks-More Than Ever Before

402 Lewis  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:09:27am

It's so hard to pick just one.

Therefore, I'm ready to accept bribes from zulubaby. Again.

403 True German Ally  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:09:46am

RickZ, thanks. Never to old to learn new tricks! Even thinking of starting my own blog soon.

404 J.D.  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:11:23am

OT -

SEOUL — A manual approved by North Korean leader Kim Jong-il calls for his nation's citizens to hide in bunkers shielding portraits and statues of himself and other leaders if the United States attacks, according to Korean news reports. ...


N. Korea prepares for attack by U.S.

405 True German Ally  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:13:37am

Re Michael Moore: I think the true idiotarians are those who buy his books and spend money on his "documentaries".

We should get a MM clone to do a "documentary" on MM :-)

406 Bob with one O  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:17:05am

Writermom,

Equal oppurtunity, balo style.

407 godfrey  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:17:34am

# 375 abu

Damn. I voted for Soros because he lost some big money, but I like the strict constructionist approach. "Idiotarian" is clearest if it means simply what the FAQ says: "an advocate of what are deemed to be irrationalist and subjectivist values that have very little reference to the workings of the real world."

The litmus test is therefore sheer cluelessness. The best example: Saint Pancake and her brainwashed comrades at Evergreen State. But alas.

So I guess I'd vote again for Maureen Dowd, Bruce Springsteen, or an academic not on the list.

The rest of the folks on the list are too knowledgeable about what's going on. They're not stupid: they're just on the other side.

408 Kofi Annan  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:18:17am

To vote for MM as any kind of winner only empowers him…he eats it up (among other things). Kofi in 05

/approve this message

409 Bob with one O  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:19:35am

TINMF (typing is not my friend)

opportunity.

410 Right Wing Conspirator  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:19:36am

OT - but waaahhh !
Democrats to force debate on Ohio results

WASHINGTON (AP) — A small group of Democrats agreed Thursday to force House and Senate debates on Election Day problems in Ohio before letting Congress certify President Bush's election over Sen. John Kerry in November.


Get.Over.It.

411 ibmkeyboard  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:20:16am

charles,
this voting is unfair, kofi annan is right at the top of the page, and my man mikey has to page down, it is similar to a hanging chad. i for one am going to protest this vote if kofi wins.
just got off the phone with al gore, and he is sending lawyers to your blog. this thread will be held up at least 4 months, untill a real winner can be hand picked.

412 Lewis  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:26:23am

#411 ibmkeyboard

That was a pretty good kvetch, but you forgot to mention how you've been disenfranchised.

I award you 8 out of a possible 10 points.

413 kayawanee  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:26:27am

All of you make very convincing arguments for Kofi "I need to steal more" Anon and Michael "Pass me another mayonaisse burrito" Moore.

I'd put my money on one of those two to win, but I just can't believe that they have any illusions of where they want to take the world. Both capitalize on death and sorrow, and neither are doing it for idealistic reasons. They're both in it for the material success.

Maureen Dowd, on the other hand, is an absolute idiot. And here are some quotes from the Queen of Idiocy to back it up.

"OK, I'll predict that the rapture's coming and you and I, Chris, are going up, and all these hypocritical conservatives who tell people not to do stuff but then they get caught doing are not." -- Maureen Dowd on the Chris Matthews show
"Aside from his scintilla of candor, Mr. Bush is still not leveling with us. As he said at his press conference on Monday, 'the enemies of freedom' know that 'a democratic Iraq will be a decisive blow to their ambitions because free people will never choose to live in tyranny.' They may choose to live in a theocracy, though. Americans did." -- Maureen Dowd


"…[Bush] has the good father, who is his own dad, who believed in internationalism and the Atlantic alliance and doing things with the allies and coalitions. And then you have the bad, dark father, Darth Vader, which is Dick Cheney, and he sort of led the president down this gloomy, dark, paranoid path of unilateralism and sort of bullying the world."

And finally, an entire column of idiocy for your reading pleasure:
Dowd's 12 Days of Christmas

414 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:32:07am

I was watching Kofi on Fox earlier this morning and I really can't stand his attitude and his voice: he plays the role of the divinely inspired prophet of justice.
Actually, justice for his family (and friends) budget.

415 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:34:42am
416 ibmkeyboard  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:35:34am

#412
yes charles, i was disenfranchised. and every vote will be counted.

417 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:37:14am
418 big L  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:40:21am

#83-Ntropy-Yep you got it. Sorry everybody is the idiotarian in the group as I understand 'idiotarian'. The others have controls on what they do and are making a buck, big bucks.
So if not evil, they are certainly cynical. they may be idiots, too. But they are not tools and fools being used by others.

/my 2 cents.

OT- is some of this charity to the S.E. Asia area, going to be used to blow us up? And are the countries involved spending anything on relief themselves? Can we take a lien on their gold in NY or Fort Knox, for a while, for example?
What about our troops-- could the troops in Iraq and families
get a 'howdy-do, job well done' and here is a bonus or a raise?
And can our ships in that area not cluster up and have air- cover so there isn't another splodey incident?
/just saying

419 Goodbye_natalie  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:42:16am

#66 Stuck in California,

I agree with you. And it doesn't do justice to call Moore a big, fat slob. We should switch over to pathetic lard ass.

Just teasing there.

I know this will be a controversial comment but I have a proposal next year that we change the Idiotarian awards to categories. If we are narrowed down to one choice each year, there will be so many deserving candidates that are never given their just due.

Perhaps we could have three to four categories: (1) Hollywood Idiotarian because there will always be plenty of available candidates, (2) Political Idiotarian - self explanatory, (3) Journalistic Idiotarian - also self explanatory.

If not, at least two categories: (1) Domestic, and (2) International. I mean, all of your justifications are worthy - but how can you possibly leave off a Ted Rall and Lawrence O'Donnell off the finalist list? It's enough to give me gas.

420 sharona  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:43:06am

Kofi doesn't know he's an Idiotarian, hence he's perfect for the Fiskie. Kofi also believes that, despite all evidence to the contrary, his way (and France's way, and Germany's way, etc.) is the better way to adjudicate the world's problem's.

Anyone who is more likely to award the Fiskie to Michael Moore, Little Danny Rather, SorryEverybody.com, and George Soros know's it's truly difficult to top the hubris of the U.N. and it's Secretary General. Anyone who's still not certain should go see "Hotel Rawanda".

kayawanee:

"Michael 'Pass me another mayonaisse burrito' Moore."

I think I'm going to be sick (but while laughing!). And this is coming from a girl who loves to drown her fries a la Amsterdam, to quote Vincent Vega.

421 Hila  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:44:53am

Well, I voted Kofi, Moore, SorryEverybody.com (that was a hoot!), Soros and Chirac the frog. They all deserve the award though.

422 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:49:59am
423 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:52:36am
424 Smit  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:53:09am

#420 Sharona -

Kofi doesn't know he's an Idiotarian, hence he's perfect for the Fiskie. Kofi also believes that, despite all evidence to the contrary, his way (and France's way, and Germany's way, etc.) is the better way to adjudicate the world's problem's.

Egggzactly right.

Bravo.


===

VOTE KOFI - STUPID ALL OVER THE WORLD!

425 Quilly Mammoth  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:53:56am

Was there any decision about whether Soros is evil?

QM

426 Lightning_Man  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:55:44am

Idiot does not equal wrong or enemy. If you believe the winner of the Idiotarian award should be an idiot, get behind SorryEverybody.com.

When you vote, apply the idiot test: if the first thing you think about the candidate is idiot, then that person is a good candidate. I think many things about Rather, Soros, Moore, and Anan, but idiot is not one.

427 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:57:26am
428 ibmkeyboard  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:59:17am

397 Iron Fist

Still too angry to post.

Someone please hug Iron Fist. Do it quickly though, the anti huggers are poised to pounce.

he might be pissed because of my comment about donald rumsfied.
come on Iron fist,
sticks and stones will break my bones, but post will only make me cry.

429 Smit  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:01:27am

Nutz, I've had my 5 votes & Charles has personally, in a manner reminiscent of Genghis Khan, prevented my plans to vote more.

I feel so disenfranchised.

===

VOTE KOFI - STUPID ALL OVER THE WORLD!

430 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:01:53am

#410 RWC:

You forgot the more obvious quip:

MOVEON! Damnit!

This whole nonsense by Conyers, Weiner, and a couple of the far left fringe will backfire on the whole of the DNC. They didn't even pull this crap in 2000, and in an election that saw fewer problems - and those problems that did show themselves happen to point to fraud on the part of Democrats, the public shouldn't stand for it.

I say shouldn't instead of wont because the media will spin this thing more than a F5 tornado. It will be all about the principle of elections and making every vote count, all while disenfranchising every last Ohio voter, if these numbnuts got their way and refused to count the Ohio tally.

Better yet, I still say someone with some cojones in the RNC should question the NY vote tally, which went for a John L Kerry. That's not just a technical question, but following the law - New York gave its delegates to John Loser Kerry, not John F'kin Kerry. /sarcasm

431 TMF  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:03:02am

HOLY SHIT the whiny, pathetic little Democrats are challenging the 3 MILLION VOTE VICTORY of President Bush.

You people need to be hit hard. REAL hard.

432 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:04:43am
433 Bob with one O  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:06:46am

AI,

Think twice about North Dakota. -39 F yesterday without windchill.

434 piglet  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:07:38am
just saw mickey moore on nbc morning show, raving about how we americans love a good movie actor for president, and how we all agree with the democrats, they just cant find a good runner.



amazing watching katie Coric asking moore if the "moore effect" had cost kerry the election. this from the woman who asked jessica lynch's parents how they FELT about finding out their daughter had been anally raped by iraqi's while jessica was sitting right next to katie.

435 kayawanee  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:09:18am

On second thought...

Kofi Anon probably thinks that the gov't of Zimbabwe represents a model political system, and he's quite photogenic. He would look good on the podium receiving the award.

On the other hand, anyone who considers Crisco a snack food would make an outstanding Idiotarian of the Year. Michael Moore should be a shoe in.

On the third hand (yes, many of us Martians have three hands), the folks at "SorryEverybody.com" really do believe everything they think, do, and say. They aren't making any real money, and could therefore be considered "authentic idiotarians".

On the fourth hand (uh, and a few of us Martians have four hands), few people have the ability to put the right words together to make complete asses of themselves like Maureen Dowd.

This is a very difficult decision for me. And it's rather depressing nature leads me to believe that I might need therapy after the election.

Are there any therapists out there that are still providing their services to sufferers of PEST?

Hey! By the way, why aren't the PEST sufferers on the list?
What group of people are more idiotic than that?

436 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:12:22am

#432 song and dance man:

Thanks. Got lots more of that where those discardedlies pieces came from - including planned, contemplated, and already done. Actually about 8 years worth over at S101- although my POV has changed considerably in that time (pre/post 9/11 will do that to lots of people).

437 ibmkeyboard  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:13:39am

charles,
i was only able to vote for mikey 5 times, this is unfair, democrats in ohio were treated better than this, some voted 20 times, and recieved monies for their vote.

im on the phone with al gore, he will get to the bottom of this.

438 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:18:38am
439 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:20:20am
440 Elcid  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:22:02am

as posted earlier, the leftist dems debate election legitimacy and then there is...

Andrea Yates' Conviction Overturned

Based the defense's appeal cited 19 errors from her trial, but the appeals court said since the false testimony issue reversed the conviction, it was not ruling on the other matters.

this being the the major issue...

Yates' lawyers had argued at a hearing last month before a three-judge panel of the First Court of Appeals in Houston that psychiatrist Park Dietz (search) was wrong when he mentioned an episode of the TV show "Law & Order" involving a woman found innocent by reason of insanity for drowning her children.

After jurors found Yates guilty, attorneys in the case and jurors learned no such episode existed.

"We conclude that there is a reasonable likelihood that Dr. Dietz's false testimony could have affected the judgment of the jury," the court ruled. "We further conclude that Dr. Dietz's false testimony affected the substantial rights of appellant."

Dietz testified the episode aired shortly before the drownings. Testimony during the trial had indicated Yates watched the television series.

A wet and bedraggled Yates called police to her home on June 20, 2001, and showed them the bodies of her five children: Noah, 7, John, 5, Paul, 3, Luke, 2, and 6-month-old Mary. She had called them into the bathroom and drowned them one by one.

According to testimony, Yates was overwhelmed by motherhood, considered herself a bad mother, and had attempted suicide and been hospitalized for depression.

Prosecutors acknowledged she was mentally ill but argued that she could tell right from wrong and was thus not legally insane.

The case stirred debate over the legal standard for mental illness and whether postpartum depression (search) is properly recognized and taken seriously. Women's groups had harshly criticized prosecutors for pushing for the death penalty.

Luckily, for the sake of 'sanity' and the souls of all thos children, this exists...

The court ruling returns the case back to the trial court for a new trial.

Jurors in 2002 sentenced Yates to life in prison in the 2001 deaths of three of her children. She was not tried in the deaths of the other two.

If by some chance, she beats the rap on the next trial, it is rumored andrea yates intends to get her teaching degree. It is said she is interested in teaching young children.

Ummm, the last paragraph, is NOT TRUE...so prosecuting attorneys...do NOT use this as evidence.
Fox News

441 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:25:05am

Late to chime in, but chime I must! They are all deserving, but to me, the most deserving of the Fiskie is George Soros. Move on.org is now owned by Mr. Soros, and also is the democrat party. He is calling the shots of the leftists in the country, putting all the nuts and anti-democracy groups together. Who could be more evil and hurtful of western civilization than George Soros? Moore and the others are now dancing to the tune of the leftists/democrats. George Soros is the most destructive force in the west and thus earns my vote(s).

Also, he is so anti-Israel, that as a Jew, I am totally ashamed of him, born a Jew, to be called Jewish. Soros for the Fiskie. Yes, the others are also very deserving, but Soros' blood is just oozing pancake syrup.

442 Bob with one O  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:32:26am

AI,

It is a beautiful place, extremes in weather will get you if you're not prepared. Great fishing and hunting along with some of the friendliest people on God's green Earth.

443 ibmkeyboard  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:36:18am

piglet,

katies legs are not what they used to be, she has to say things to keep you looking at her lips.

well on second thought, she does have nice legs. oh crap my wife just saw this,

honey im so sorry, let me take you to dinner.
her legs dont even compare to yours, dont unplug my frigging computer, turn the monitor back on.

444 RayH  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:38:19am

#420 Sharona
What is ala Amsterdam? Never heard of it. Maybe I'll try it if it sounds good.

445 Bob with one O  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:45:32am

ibmkeyboard,

I have a spare bedroom.

446 zulubaby  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:53:41am

DocDale (#356)

Now Australia's Evil Pilger is out of the running, I'm shilling for Kofi. He seems (mostly) to fit Lenin's original definition of 'useful idiot', although not above taking a bit on the side ('give them enough rope...'). So no bribes needed there Zulubaby!

Excellent. I think you'll find that Kofi is a worthy candidate. So now we have you, me, Smit, Powderfinger and Thom on the campaign trail. We're gaining strength!

Lewis (#402)

Therefore, I'm ready to accept bribes from zulubaby. Again.

Let's talk ...

447 Lewis  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:55:45am

Okay, I just read the We're Back And We're Proud thread.

Yeesh.

Seeing as how this isn't a terribly serious thread, however, I'll risk reiterating my request to be bribed for my votes by zulubaby. Reasonable rates! Easy financing! Act now!

448 Thom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:56:41am

Go Kofi - you magnificent bastard!

1. Kofi Annan 3562 21.2%

2. Michael Moore 3450 20.5%

449 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 6:59:51am

#446 Zulubaby

Excellent. I think you'll find that Kofi is a worthy candidate

If George Soros doesn't make the final cut, I'm with you on this. Kofi has been the center of all the good stuff since the first Gulf War, including Oil for Food, Saddam's being able to slaughter Kurds and other dissidents, and of course, the UN's inability to stop genocide and terrorism. George is number one, and Kofi smells like number two.

450 Gordon  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:00:02am

I notice that Charles has dropped the "e" from the end of Ramsey Clark's name. So he doesn't ignore me after all!

I don't see how anyone other than Dan Rather should be winning this year. Moore may be 100% wrong about everything, but he's too cunning and smart in a businessman sort of way (which is ironic) to be an idiotarian. And Kofi Annan? I actually don't think he's that bad (I Know, definitely a minority viewpoint on LGF).

451 Gordon  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:01:31am

Back to Rather - he now has an almost four decade record of MSM arrogance/ineptitude. If nothing else, he deserves a lifetime achievement award.

452 Lewis  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:02:11am

zb

Heh.

How are your backrub skills? All I really need is 30 minutes or so of heavy duty upper back work.

Swedish massage won't cut it, but I don't need that full body massage crap, either.

You're allow to use your elbows, if you're familiar with that technique.

453 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:02:25am

I see Gordon has voted for Dan Rather. That means Rather is out.

454 Lewis  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:04:16am

allow allowed

455 Thom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:06:33am

#450 Gordon

And Kofi Annan? I actually don't think he's that bad ...

You have got to be kidding.

Hey, I think I saw your twin today.

456 Bob with one O  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:14:54am

Mr Akbar,

Damn, I voted for Dandy Dan.

457 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:16:05am

#450 Gordon

And Kofi Annan? I actually don't think he's that bad

I'm beginning to think that there is going to be an Idiotarian-Troll Award in your future.

458 Gordon  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:19:25am

#455 Thom: Funny, I thought for a minute that I was looking at you and your twin.

But then I noticed that neither of them had Hitler mustaches.

459 rightasrain  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:19:52am

At one point last year (when Farenlie 9/11 was at its height), MM said in an interview 'Some people think I should run for office...'

He sounded like he was expecting people to say 'OH YES, PLEASE RUN FOR OFFICE! WE NEED YOU! THIS COUNTRY IS DESPERATE FOR YOU! WE WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET YOU INTO POLITICS!'

When he suggests other Hollywood types to run for President, I suspect he's thinking about himself.

These guys are so full of themselves. Make a bunch of money in movies and they think they're gods.

It's so sick.

460 Thom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:20:39am

#458 Gordon

#455 Thom: Funny, I thought for a minute that I was looking at you and your twin.

Ooooh! What a witty comeback.

Taking notes from the 1st graders again?

461 Lewis  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:46:08am

zulubaby

Please note that I live on the opposite coast from you, so you'll have to arrange transportation at your own expense.

I, however, will make the arrangements for a suitable rendezvous spot away from the prying eyes of my wife and child (and another's on the way! - me am currently accepting suggestions for male names -- strangely, "Gideon" is sounding good to me).

;-)

462 Studsup  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:48:41am

Traitor John Kerry was apparently disappointed he didn't make the list because his recent actions and statements look like someone desperately trying to launch a write-in bid.

463 yournamehere  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:03:13am

I've got one vote left. I'm sooo... confused#@*&^%?

464 Thom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:07:36am

#463 yournamehere

Kofi! Kofi!
He's our man!
Something witty and rhyming!

465 yournamehere  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:10:32am

Jeez...! now koffee's taking over the Tsunami mess !
Does he get bonus points for that?

466 Thom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:13:53am

#465 yournamehere

You bet your bippy it does!

</look that up in your Funk and Wagnall's>

467 yournamehere  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:20:57am

OK...I spent my last nickel on kofi arshole !
I still have that soft spot in my intestine for Mikey though...

468 ibmkeyboard  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:21:22am

hey bob with 1 o
im back, next door using my neighbors laptop, im afraid the heat will destroy the sperm in my scortom, but what the hell, what does a 59 year old man need with sperm. kinda like tits on a wild boar. this durn keyboard cant spell scrotom, any doctors out there.

while i was gone, gordon showed up. hey gorda, have you voted yet.

469 Thom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:22:16am

Here we go ... some asshole from Ohio is challenging the electoral college.

Bastards.

470 Thom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:22:40am

Oops, wrong thread. Sorry.

471 RickZ  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:23:01am

# 464 Thom:

Kofi! Kofi!
He's our man!

If he can't steal it,
No one can!

Yeeeaaahhh Peacekeepersinthebluehelmets!

472 Thom  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:25:29am

#471 RickZ

Phew! Nice save ...

473 RickZ  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:32:27am

# 472 Thom:

;)

474 Hila  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:49:04am
And Kofi Annan? I actually don't think he's that bad

Ok, now that was funny. Really funny.

475 Lewis  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 8:53:45am

#474 Hila

That's why I kinda like Gordon. Like me, he's all about teh comedy. And also like me, he's not all that good at it, but he does his best.

476 Bubble Girl  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 9:58:50am

#412 Kayawanee

"OK, I'll predict that the rapture's coming and you and I, Chris, are going up, and all these hypocritical conservatives who tell people not to do stuff but then they get caught doing are not." --

Dowd "Rapture's coming", only in your dreams, Maureen...

477 Hila  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 10:03:25am

#475 Lewis

LOL, i guess every forum needs its own Gordon. ;-)

478 David Block  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 11:07:20am

So many deserving candidates, so few awards...

479 Trumpeter  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 12:15:01pm

What is the current price of one vote this year?

480 zulubaby  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 12:20:03pm

RickZ, LOL!

481 Julmudgeon  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 9:10:58pm

Moore is such an egomaniac that he would absolutely love to win this. Don't give him the satisfaction. Vote Kofi.


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