Charles,

This is pretty vile. Evidently, a marine went nuts and killed two policemen, and this NYTimes article is a two page "piece" about why he might have done it.

Notice the grief of the victims' family members isn't even mentioned. Sound familiar?

Here is a quote:

"Somewhere along the line, somebody let this young man down, and what it did was just domino right back into our neighborhood," said Frankie Haney, who lives near the alley and saw some of the shooting. "I feel the government owes us answers."

"Corporal Raya's friends and family say they are also looking for answers, but they are deeply offended by the presumption among some in Ceres that the blame lies solely with him. In an interview Thursday, his father, Tomas Raya, said the family was especially saddened at the thought that he might not be given special military honors at his funeral on Friday. "It is very painful," said Mr. Raya, who works in a canning company. "He served his country. He loved his country as we do."

Read the whole thing. It's sick. Implies he did it cause he was "traumatized" by the war.

Here's the link.

Columbia Unversity

HOW TO CONTINUE A LIE 101

Taught by...

Remember, it's true because they want it to be.

If you keep this in mind, a lot more of this kind of stuff begins to make sense.

I really don't understand how anyone, and I mean anyone, could read Newcomer's analysis, and still think the memos aren't forged.

It boggles my mind it does.

While the bloggers strenuously assert that the documents are forgeries, nobody really knows, including the Thornburgh/Boccardi panel, which found that “it may never be possible for anyone to authenticate or discredit the documents.”

Somebody smack this guy with a clue-by-four.

The "Time Travel Theory" has apparently not been ruled out by the editors of CJR.

To quote a line from Walt Kelly's Pogo, "You couldn't see lumps in a lump factory."

Why is Columbia actively trying to make me regret applying there for grad school in the fall...

Why are facts beyond the mental capabilities of these morons?

Look at CBS' ratings - I'd say Moonves is about to pull the plug on 60 minutes Wed and replace it with CSI BlackRock.

Sounds like whistling past the graveyard to me...

(Dean of Journalism school thinking to himself: "There are no bloggers nearby... and anyway I'm not afraid of them... I am intellectually and morally superior to the pajamahedin...")

"I’m not sure which category Executive Editor of the Columbia Journalism Review Michael Hoyt belongs in"

I think that "willfully ignorant partisan hack" about sums it up.

Sorry for repeating this over and over: the moonbats have really learned well Goebbels' lesson and they KNOW that repeating a lie makes it true in the mind of many.

I am not astonished at this guy's behavior: he is telling to the HQs of the moonbats:
"Look at me ! I will tell any lie for you !"
He's building his resume for future very well paid jobs.

charles:

You omitted a category to which Hoyt belongs:
"Seriously deranged and freaking stupid"

Kin of Marine Who Shot Policemen Ask if He Is a Casualty of War

Another vote for "willfully ignorant" here.

Everyone needs to calm down and consider the source, folks.

Columbia is to journalism as spoons are to guano.

And another thing, they want to be University of Toronto when they grow nads...

Does this mean the blinking Killian memo is coming back?

I know some people who went to CJS.

Half of them aren't even working in the field.

And to think that my daughter and my money go to Columbia...Sheeesh, At least she is in the Engineering program and away from the goofball element,

Columbia Alumni seem to be wayyy smarter than the resident columbia instructors

Can any Columbia past or present students explain this paradox?

Also as an Alumni or Student (even local community residents) your voice and opinion has sway so make it heard to the administration!

"Only dyed-in-the-wool idiots and blinkered, willfully ignorant partisan hacks would still try to insist there’s a possibility the CBS Killian memos could be genuine.

I’m not sure which category Executive Editor of the Columbia Journalism Review Michael Hoyt belongs in... "

Do we have to choose either or? I'm going with both on this one.

#18 Submariner

I am calm...damnit, I am calm.
(Begins grinding teeth and eyes roll back in head)

#22 mglazer

I'm not a Columbia grad, but I can explain it:

Removal of an organic from the proximity of most toxic elements begins the healing process... The longer separated, the greater the chance that complete restoration will occur.

If the memo can't be authenticated, it is discredited, period. The burden of proof is on CBS. I am so tired of these ninnies.

Gotta love the Left.

Prior to the report: "Fake, but accurate."

After the report: "They're real because nobody could disprove them."

What's the next stop on their runaway train of dementia?

Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2005 12:59 p.m. EST
Russert: CBS ID'd Source of Rathergate Docs

CBS News executives know the identity of the person who gave "60 Minutes II" producer Mary Mapes forged documents on President Bush's National Guard record, but are refusing to identify the source publicly.

That's the claim from NBC Washington bureau chief Tim Russert, who leveled the bombshell allegation Wednesday morning.

"I think the interesting thing is the documents - where did they come from?" Russert told radio host Don Imus. "Somebody at CBS knows where the documents came from - and the credibility of that person, and the agenda of that person," he said.
Taken aback, Imus asked, "So they all know, in other words?" Russert replied bluntly, "Yeah."

The NBC newser said it was wrong for Mapes' boss Dan Rather not to reveal at the outset - if not the source's identity, at least the fact that he or she had partisan motives.

So why doesn't CBS News come clean now and reveal the identity of the person who forced Rather to retire from his anchor post and destroyed the credibility of its news division?

"They can't give up their source - they can't compromise their source," Russert insisted.

[Link: www.newsmax.com...]

If Columbia is so damn riveted to this story...find the "source" mentioned by Russert...ask them...it's called 'investigative journalism'...or is that course NOT taught at Columbia?

"Blog gate" and "Blogger Mistakes" are not he story...THIS is the Story..."I think the interesting thing is the documents - where did they come from?" Ask, who, how, when, why and for what purpose these documents were produced, cjr.

#10 doc

Look at CBS' ratings - I'd say Moonves is about to pull the plug on 60 minutes Wed and replace it with CSI BlackRock.

I'd say you're right. That trial balloon is already floating.

Future of '60 Minutes Wednesday' in Doubt

The program is guaranteed to be on the air through May, when the current television season ends, Mr. Moonves said, but "they are not exactly tearing it up in the ratings over there."

Say goodnight, Dan.

#30 Powderfinger

Eh, I wouldn't be so sure we'll see 60 Minutes Wednesday go the way of the Dodo. If every show that was getting sh*tty ratings was cancelled, Enterprise wouldn't have made it past the second season.

This is just more mindless propaganda.

Not only are the folks at CSJ smart enough to know that the memos are not real, they themselves know they are not real. They just want to continue the lie so that the masses, whom they believe are not smart enough to make the determination of real/fake themselves, will judge them as real.

It really is sickening.

The most obvious thing about NETWORK MEDIA, CORPORATE and ACADEMIC Politicking for the Democrats is the pattern

"Bird of a feather, flock together"

Can't you see he is just helping out a buddy!?!

Also, the basic Liberal tactic of perpetuating falsehoods is to simply repeat them over and over just like Facistic tactics and current arab manias - the dots are connecting themselves.

Every good Liberal Journalist and Academic knows it doesnt matter if its true as long as you say its not necessarily untrue allows the myth to coniute and casts doubt on reality so as to bolster your own position and minimize the other's which has factual proof.

If the documents are real, then why hasnt any moonbat reproduced them using a typewriter in the 4 months since the fakes became public?

uh, so you mean the memos weren't just copied over into MS word to make them legible?

My LLLFriends who are tv news watchers want to know...really.
they ask me if the gist and facts of the memo isn't true and W skated.

Usually there is money in all hese schemes
somewhere.Anyone in the CBS-land livin' lavish? Or ask the question inquiring minds want to know--were there tapes of any of the meetings between any two participants?

Liberal Propaganda, oh I mean MSM and ACADEMIA tactis

# 1

A Point without Proof

any others guys?

This demonstrates why it was very, very important that the T/B report didn't admit the memos were forgeries.

He is actually using the report's conclusions as evidence.

It's true. The TANG memos are authentic. It's also true that:

1. Ted Kennedy is a good driver
2. John Kerry loves America
3. Dan Rather is objective
4. Maxine Waters studied differential calculus in college
5. Muslims are peace loving pacifists
6. Jimmy Carter didn't have a lobotomy

#14 Poitiers-Lepanto

Sorry for repeating this over and over: the moonbats have really learned well Goebbels' lesson and they KNOW that repeating a lie makes it true in the mind of many.

Absolutely right. This is just one of the lies that have been repeated so relentlessly that they are considered received truth by many. Listed briefly, these are:

1. George W. Bush's National Guard service was less than honorable; he received special favors, went AWOL, and committed court-martial offenses,
2. George W. Bush is dumber tham a sack of hammers,
3. In spite of his dumbness, he is an incredibly malicious schemer,
4. The 2000 election was stolen,
5. The turkey was plastic.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Apparently this CJR editor never bothered to read the Appendices, specifically Appendix IV. Any good lawyer would know that you've got to look at the footnotes and attached materials when putting together a case, and boy oh boy, imagine what you can learn when you're reading through that particular part of the report.

But, before we even get to that point, where is the burden of proof lay? Does it lay with CBS or with the bloggers when it was CBS asserting that these documents were what CBS said they were? The simple answer is that the burden of proof to show authenticity rested with cBS, and it continues to rest with cBS to this day.

Now, on to the appendix. After detailing the incredible lengths to which CBS went in order to avoid recognizing any of the problems raised by those experts contacted before the report aired - and mind you - they sought to give only the barest minimum of information to those experts on which they could form their opinions, the report contacted an outside expert to detail the problems with the documents.

To wit, we get Tytell's extensive dissembling of the documents, starting with the fact that these documents could not have been produced in any manner consistent with what went on within the TANG. He claims that certain aspects were produced on one kind of typewriter (the Olympia), but other parts had to be done with other typewriters as no typewriter existed that combined all the elements found on the documents CBS produced.

Oh, and Tytell's conclusion? That the documents were likely produced on a computer. Still paying attention CJR? "Likely produced on a computer," is expert opinion language for saying stuff that boils down to - this stuff was a forgery, but I wont come out and say it on the infintesimally small chance that someone could time travel and reproduce the documents.

BTW, we're still waiting for someone to reproduce the documents on TANG era equipment. Some of that stuff has gotta still be around somewhere - and there still is a standing offer to the first person who can reproduce the documents using something other than a computer.

#31 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

True, but Enterprise didn't embarass the living hell out of an entire network news department. The can pull the plug on 60 Minutes II and Dan Rather at the same time without having to say they fired him. They can keep him on for the last couple of months, have him stick to rescued kitten stories, and call it a career.

The very fact that Mr. Hoyt wants to defend liars exposes his extreme political bias.

He's yet to realize that telling the truth is more important than scoring partisan points, especially for journalists.

When you defend liars Mr. Hoyt, you become as "credible" as they are.

And BTW, you're doing a fine job of destroying any last vestige of credibility you and your colleges ever once had. Keep up the good work.

You know, evolution has never been "proven" either, but somehow I suspect that the Columbia Journalism Review, if it comments about the schoolbook stickers in Cobb County, Georgia, won't be so quick to say "hey, this debate is really inconclusive."

keep smokin' them thar socks, Mikey.

#31 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

If every show that was getting sh*tty ratings was cancelled, Enterprise wouldn't have made it past the second season.

The difference is that, while Enterprise has "sh*tty" ratings, it is the highest rated program that UPN has. They can't afford to kill it. OTOH, CBS has many high rated shows so the loss of 60 Minutes Wednesday wouldn't affect them.

Question: Is this the same show that used to be called 60 Minutes II?

#41 Powderfinger

Ah, I see your point. I think CBS and Kenny knew that it was a gamble to blatantly produce propoganda for one candiate, but chose to roll the dice. And they'd already planned that if they came up snake eyes, Danny and Mapes would be gone and the show would either be restaffed or simply "let go with dignity." Can't exactly say this was the event that brought down 60 Minutes, but simply the final tipping point of a backlash that'd been building up for years.

If I understand the military, isn't there alwoays a paper trail a mile long when anything is purchased? If that is the case would there not be a paper trail leading to the phantom IBM Selectra if it existed?

While the bloggers strenuously assert that the documents are forgeries, nobody really knows, including the Thornburgh/Boccardi panel, which found that “it may never be possible for anyone to authenticate or discredit the documents.”

It may never be possible for anyone to authenticate or discredit John Skerry's treason, or his dishonorable discharge, either.

I'm sure very soon we'll see both of these stories reported with the same "zeal" as the TANG story was.

People, people, people!

Isn't everyone overlooking what obviously happened here?

I mean, after all, everybody knows that Bushitler was AWOL, and that the memos are undoubtedly 100% rootin for tootin genuine as they can be.

It's just that the fearless crusaders for truth have not been able to find a 1972 era typewriter that could have typed up the smoking gun memos (which, remember, must be true -- Dan and Mary said so!)

So what's the story? It should be obvious to everyone. . . .

Colonel Killian had extremely good handwriting, and the memos in question were produced by the good Colonel (may he rest in peace) -- it's just that he wrote them freestyle instead of typing them! No wonder he couldn't type! He didn't need to!

Colonel Killian's writing was so good that Microsoft Word was based upon his calligraphy! There were no typewriters involved!

Besides, there is no evidence that Colonel Killian couldn't have written these "cya" memos, is there now? And who are you to question the service of a decorated veteran, anyway?

/LLL off

38 sawadee63

1. Ted Kennedy is a good driver
2. John Kerry loves America
3. Dan Rather is objective
4. Maxine Waters studied differential calculus in college
5. Muslims are peace loving pacifists
6. Jimmy Carter didn't have a lobotomy

And as Paul Harvey says, "Here's the REST of the story..."
1. ...in the Death Race 2000 videogame.
2. ...when it gives him what he wants and when it doesn't ask for a damn plan!
3. ...about whether Mary Mapes or the Dan himself should take a fall - "Fire the b*tch!"
4. ...and failed the class miserably when she couldn't spell "cullcu, sillic, sh*t! maath" right.
5. ...because sending infidels to the grave is making the world a more peaceful place by eliminating all religious tensions.
6. ...he had, two because the first wasn't as fully successful as his family desired.

Paging Oliver Stone, Line 1 please.

I thought that the documents were already authenticated as frauds.

Really.

#46 the answer to your question is yes

60 Minutes II = 60 Minutes Wednesday.

The folks over at the original didn't like the idea of calling the Wednesday edition the same as the original, just in case something bad happened with the spinoff (like a scandal) - they didn't want the blowback. Well, the worst nightmare happened, and they're still going to get blowback.

What scares me most is this:
if this is the behavior of the left in front of a proven lie, how many and which other lies I have been told for decades ?

I think that the persons like me, who have seen too many moons, have been living in a cage, in a Matrix, in a mental institution.

OK, by now we know that the Rosenbergs DID sell the nuke secrets to the Soviets, and thanks to Ann Coulter we have come to know about the REAL dimensions of the commies' conspiracies in the Fifties...

But how many lies did we accept because there was no Internet, no LGF ?

I'm scared.

gormless

While the bloggers strenuously assert that the documents are forgeries...

I streuously assert that Michael Hoyt has a severe case of ambulatory intercolonic cranial implantation.

To wit, his head is stuck so far up his a$$ he can't see where he's going.

I'm sitting here staring at a memo I have that states that:

"Michael Hoyt is one of the main lovemonkeys of Michael Jaskson's (ed. *spit*) NeverLand."

Since none of you can prove me wrong, I must be telling the truth.
Since none of you can disprove the accuracy of my 'memo', it must be true.
But If it's not true, then it's still accurate.

;^)

#10 doc

Maybe I'm out of line here. But I watched 60 Mins Wed, and I was always creeped out by that woman-anchor who looks like a hard core body builder.

I think her jaw could serve as a backhoe.

{shudders}

Columbia has been getting a lot of press regarding the ideas from some of their professors in the past months for some of the things they've said, and all of the publicity I can recall has been bad.

To me, this says something to me about the quality of the academic adminstration at Columbia, who are the follks that hire people like Hoyt and some of the other problem professors at "Hate U."

Columbia, once a highly regarded university, is fast becoming the Jerry Springer of Northeastern Universities.

In the same letter...

On the larger question of why this happened, we are not equipped with the mind-reading equipment that they apparently issue to editorial writers at The Post.

Also not equipped with the bullsh-t detectors issued to the blogosphere.

#58 Death Before Dhimmitude

Woundn't that be:
"ambulatory intercolonic cranial implantation-induced blindness"?

AICI-IB, or "Aysib" in medical jargonese...

Any moron over 40 knew right away that these documents were not produced on any typewritter that existed at the time. I agree with those who say that if you repeat a lie enough times, you start to believe it is true. My family continues are boycott of all CBS programs, local and network until C-bs gets its head out of it's back end.

The superscripted "th" was not available on standard typewriters of the 70s, but since that is debatable we can leave that point;

Proportional spacing WAS available on some electric monospaced typewriters.

But "kerning" was NEVER AVAILABLE ON MONOSPACED TYPEWRITERS whether proportional spacing was available or not. The tucking of the tail of one letter under the crossbar of another, for instance, cannot be achieved with ordinary manual or electric typewriters, no matter how sophisticated they are. Kerning can only be achieved with modern day computers and programs or with professional typesetting.

The memos showed the presence of "kerning"; thus the memos could not have been produced in the 1970s on a typewriter.

Hoyt's letter is nothing but disingenuous crap. Sure CBS committed some "journalistic sins" (venial, not mortal, sins) but so did the bloggers, so they're just as guilty as CBS. And the Thornburgh/Boccardi panel didn't say the documents were forgeries, so they may be (read: "probably are") true.

I vote for Hoyt as a "willfully ignorant partisan" and a probable advocate of "jouranlistic sins" (so long as you don't get caught).

#1 davesax:

Is he Muslim?

#61 American Infidel

This is what happens when educators willfully refuse to educate objectively. The goal is to hide Europe's historic anti-Semitism such that the new anti-Semitism can complete what was never finished...

I expect that CSJ didn't really read the entire report. The good fellow is just quoting what he read in the NYT or heard on Air (anti) America.

Whats all the fuss. saying it does not make it so. Bush is President, so cares about some stinking documents.

It just occurred to me: It may never be possible for anyone to authenticate the low IQ of CJR editors. In fact, it may not even be possible to authenticate the existence of Columbia University. After all, how do we really know it's real?

It is time to summarize.

Mr. Hoyt says that the bloggers were not able to prove the Killian documents are forgeries. Thus, the veracity of the documents remains in tact.

Thank God this guy is just teaching students about journalism and is not evaluating my sins.

Krauthammer lays it all out, as only an ex-Montrealer can!

(I'm an ex-Montrealer too ;) )

Seriously, if anyone still thinks those memos are true -not says, believes - they should be made to sit down with a 197x typewriter and talk to it.

The day the typewriter talks back is the day I sign the "Rather was railroaded" petition.

The kerning discussion was deliberately 'nerded up' to make it laughable to the masses, but the point was missed. A typewriter is not going to be smart enough to look back a character and decide where next to type.

"Mr Typewriter, I've got a lovely cuttlefish for you"...

#3)

Techie: Remember, it's true because they want it to be.

That’s because the Looney Left Liberals are fundamentally Atheistic and Atheists are fundamentally Solipsist. You are “inferior” because you only exist as a figment of their “superior” imagination.

#9)

Big: Why are facts beyond the mental capabilities of these morons?

For the same reason that only “imbeciles” believe in “God” while only “geniuses” believe in magic “free will” powers.

#14 & 56)

Poitiers-Lepanto Sorry for repeating this over and over: the moonbats have really learned well Goebbels' lesson and they KNOW that repeating a lie makes it true in the mind of many.

if this is the behavior of the left in front of a proven lie, how many and which other lies I have been told for decades ?

Secular Liberals have to deny the notion of Causality as a matter of necessity. A Liberal perceives the past as just as “random” and meaningless as they perceive the future, thus they do not learn from the past.

#73 American Infidel

Haven't listened to it, will see if I can dig it up...

It is just pathetic to see these bloody idiots hanging in there with the anti Bush obsession. They miss the most important point. They brought the damn memo forward as proof, they must authenticate it properly. Charles has already proven it is false but they have offered no counter argument for its authenticity. they just hang in there like the whiny children they are saying that it isn't proven false enough. Can you imagine a legal system based on the bloody LLL's logic? Guilty because we say so!?! screw 'em!

1) If the TANG memos are authentic, then CBS has a journalistic precedent for not revealing the source.

2) If the TANG memos are proven to be fakes, CBS loses their excuse for not revealing their source. After all, a 'source' that plants fake documents on you is not a source that deserves protection (to all but the hardest journalistic-privilege purists).

3) So if the TANG memos are fake, CBS will be expected to reveal the source. At which point, everyone in the world goes, 'HIM? What were you smoking when you decided he was a reliable source?' CBS's embarrassment factor goes up by an order of magnitude.

4) Therefore, neither CBS nor their major-media allies will admit, under any conceivable circumstances, that the TANG memos were fakes.

CJR website prominently displays the cover of their important work, (wait for it)...

Rethinking Objectivity

I read as much as I could stomach of the cover article, which basically states that reporters should have a liberal bias because Bush is so damn eeevil.

If you have kids at Columbia, it should be required reading, so that you know what kind of crap they're dishing up.

What if the Sunday edition Sixty Minutes did an investigative journalism piece on the Part Deux version of Sixty Minutes in which they actually try to uncover who the source of the memo is? They can even have journalists of one edition aggressively interviewing the journalists and producers of the other edition, all the way up to the high ranking management of CBS and it's associated anchors. You could even have Dan Rather in an exclusive interrogation-type interview, interviewing himself; asking himself questions, and casting his own credibility into doubt, calling himself a liar or putting himself on the spot, and then showing him denying it all. Composed incredulous Dan Rather gazing superciliously at a sweating, disheveled, stuttering Dan Rather. And then at the end, a contemplative musical number by the lovely Miss Avril Lavigne, at which point, Jesus will return (Yay!) and the world as we know it will end.

#79 blueroom127

Can you imagine a legal system based on the bloody LLL's logic?

It's called tort law...

Ultimatly, there is no impunity for the willful inversion of truth by tenured university faculty. People who take out loans in order to be exposed to the crap called "education" by many "leading" institutions will rebel and the failed and spurned institutions will be clueless as to what happened. The institutions that have programs specializing in the "information (misinformation?) industry" will be amongst the first to go.

This is not by any means the definitive refutation of these morons, but here's my take on the memos from personal experience as a typesetter.

#77 The Serpent

What are the random chances of you posting anything that another human being would care about reading?

Let's see:

Single questionable source with an avowed vendeta agianst Bush,

The documents themselves from an unknown source,

The content of the documents rife with inacuracuracies. And complely uncoroberated. Accusing Bush of not doing something that was erelevent.

32 years after the fact.

I think Mr. Hoyt needs to run those little facts past a "Journalism 101" class to see if we even really need to be discusing the "inability to dis-authenticate" the typefacing.

#79 blueroom127

Can you imagine a legal system based on the bloody LLL's logic?

That's just the problem --- LLL don't use logic, reason and fact. They rely on perception and emotion to advance their agenda. (BTW, the same applies to tort law, where scientific standards of proof and causality are ignored.)

To the Liberal Intelligentsia, critical thinking is anathema. And from the crap they spew forth as gospel, it must be harder to them than Michael Jackson at a Boys' Home...

#86 Big,

That depends upon your precise definition of the term "Human Being".

#84 gymnast

There is hope...:

On Campus, Conservatives Talk Back

The next stop on their runaway train to dimentia is Bush lost, Kerry won.

Since that which can't be disproved is real... the existence of God is therefore proven... unfortunately, the Easter Bunny, unicorns and Leprechauns fall into this category too.

I wouldn't mind if Columbia wasn't representing itself as a university, but taking the position that the memos may be true because they haven't been fully, completely, finally, nailed-into-the coffin-and-buried-six-feet-deep*, proven false is very sad.

* I think that they were only buried five feet eleven inches deep.

While the bloggers strenuously assert that the documents are forgeries, nobody really knows,

I'll tell you who knows they're forgeries:

1.) The person(s) who forged them

2.) Col. Killian's ghost, may he rest in peace

"In no way is it meant to be an apology for the serious journalistic sins committed by Mary Mapes and “60 Minutes.”

Well that's exactly what it looks like,well maybe not an apology but an excuse.

Then there is the obvious ploys directly from the democrat playbook-attack the messenger,change the subject,and obfuscation.

How totally predictable.

#89 The Serpent

That depends upon your precise definition of the term "Human Being".

I'll allow a liberal interpretation that would also include you.

Lokki: Since that which can't be disproved is real... the existence of God is therefore proven... unfortunately, the Easter Bunny, unicorns and Leprechauns fall into this category too.

I guess that means that “free will” exist also, right?

Why is it acceptable for you to believe in “free will” but not “God”? Why is the one belief “better” (more “logical”?) than the other?

I'm pretty sure it's easier to get into journalism school than Harvard Medical school, and students are likely to be inclined either one way of the other. I can't think of many medical students clamouring to get into journalism school.

28 Targetpractise,

Gotta love the Left.

Prior to the report: "Fake, but accurate."

After the report: "They're real because nobody could disprove them."

What's the next stop on their runaway train of dementia?

Hopefully, some CBS defectors will fly from the hive... Rats jumping from the burning ship...More circling down the drain. Complete irrelevance...

Silly me, I thought the subject title "CJR Editor: Memos Could Be Genuine" meant that it was literally about that, rather than intellectual masturbation and speculations regarding whether the cosmos has belly-button lint.

I shall not belabor the obvious,i.e., that the burden of proof lies with CBS and Burkett, But what do we make of the the fact that the military anagrams in the memo (e.g. OERT) are not recognized in the Airforce manual? That the dates were wrong? That acting personnel had retired? That there is no mandatory physical if you choose desk over air? That there was no testing for illegal drugs in 1972 as CBS implied? Can these idiots continue to influence our nation? This guy reminds me of a pre 9/11 CIA bureaucrat.

#90 Chris -

Great article - this is especially germane:

Consider Columbia University, currently embroiled in controversy because—as the New York Sun has reported—pro-Arab professors have promoted a venomously anti-Israel classroom agenda, jeering at students who disagree. In response, the liberal Columbia Daily Spectator, the school’s major undergraduate paper, called for greater political balance on the faculty. “By not having a conservative voice hawk its wares in the hue and cry of the academic marketplace, Columbia is failing its students,” the paper argued. “It should be self-evident that a faculty that speaks with unanimity on some of the most divisive issues of the day is not fulfilling its duty.”

When even the lefties think there are too many lefty profs on campus...

Charles,

Can't go with willfully ignorant. This schmuck knows as well as you and I that the docs were forged.

That leaves "lying, vile, partisan hack."

We need a better wordsmith than me to get just the right level of disgust.

#90, Christheprofessor. Great article, and it makes my point that the students will drive the change in the institutions rather than a tenured faculty that "gets along by going along". The institutions that are one of modern western societies greatest achievements are at war with Western Civilization. Unfortunatly most of the students have not a clue as to the unique advantages a thorough understanding of Western Civilization and it's institutions will mean to their decisions in life.

#94 Totally Sirius
You always know to brace yourself when a disclaimer is issued front and center.

#94 TotallySirius
Shouldn't you be heading for higher groound? Or are you already there?

So If I were to claim that I had a fax of a photocopy of a photograph of Washington abusing a female slave, you would not accept as legitimate "trump" in the dispute that the technology of the era (Washington's lifetime) suffered from the "fact" that photography did not exist?
The documents in question have discernable word-processing artifacts. In fact, Adobe Post Script artifacts.
And that doesn't count.
Maroons

#99) Frank IBC

Some of us are actually interested in the root causes of this Insanity, whereas others seem to be deliberately attempting to obscure the cause of it (or pretend that it is "random" and there is no cause).

Also...

Once again we have the "fallacy of the false burden".

CBS asserts that the documents are true,therefore the burden of proof is on CBS to prove they are genuine.

Serpent - can you post anything other than the fact that you do not believe in God?
Regardless of the topic of the thread... it's getting tiresome.

91 hornet- some of them are already there. Voter intimidation and irregularities everywhere; DIEBOLD; the exit polls are more accurate than the actual votes; Kerry should not have conceded. Say it enough times, it will be believed.
PEST is such an awful disease. I hope we can find a cure.

#107 The Serpent -

Are you actually arguing that this phenomenon is NOT the result of an excess of belly-button lint in the cosmos?

CSJ Tuition turns out to be $34,104. Factoring in the New York City cost of living, you can expect to pay well over $50,000 a year.

Now we know why the elite media doesn't have a clue about the values or concerns of the middle and working class. On top of tuition, in order to break into an elite media outlet, a person has to work a usually unpaid internship at a major media outlet... while living in an expensive urban area. What working class family can afford that?

Well that's just it Frank IBC, you need to just trust your betters.

If Mr. Hoyt says they "could be genuine" that's all you need to know.

#105 BenZacharia

We're on or near the highest area in the city,if the water reaches this high,I'm just going to bend over and kiss my ass good-bye.

#109)

can you post anything other than the fact that you do not believe in God?

Not sure what you are talking about ... I'm a devout Jew.

#104 J.D.

"You always know to brace yourself when a disclaimer is issued front and center."

Indeed,that was my first thought.

Geepers -

Well, I don't know about you, but I just picked the lint out of my bellybutton and burned it, and I suggest you and everyone else do the same.

Bellybutton lint is like, bad karma, or something.

Sowing doubt in the minds of the public, same crap they did with the voting in Ohio. Good think only lemmings will believe it.

Only dyed-in-the-wool idiots and blinkered, willfully ignorant partisan hacks would still try to insist there’s a possibility the CBS Killian memos could be genuine.

I’m not sure which category Executive Editor of the Columbia Journalism Review Michael Hoyt belongs in...

IMHO, the precise category would be:

Blinkered Philistine Pig-Ignorance, DNC Syncophant Division.

#44

Skippy, can you give me your explanation for how bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics?

American Infidel: Just heard a factoid on FOXNEWS about England:

65% of Brits under the age of 35 don't know what the word Auschwitz represents/is...Can anyone say Eurabian fruit is ripening...

Man that's depressing. Someone get those kids some Slayer CDs.

#38 Addendum to #1 Ted Kennedy id a good driver..and a good diver! Couldn't resist. My contempt for that man(?) knows no bounds.

111 Frank IBC, cosmologically speaking, when you consider the ontology of the metaphoric metaphysics in the denial of the existence of any proof that the memos are in fact, fake, I think you've got a valid point. It could have been belly button lint.
But we need to know whose? Dan's ? Mary's? Iowahawk's?

Unable to authenticate the documents? AAAGGGHHH! I could give you an idea in 30 damn seconds if the documents could be even REMOTELY authentic!

Let's see the originals!

At the time the CBS documents were supposedly made, paper used in the US military was an odd size. The military did this, I suppose, to differentiate themselves from the civilian world, and cut down on waste. Civilians got 8.5x11 inch paper, the military got a smaller type - I believe it was A4 - instead of the standard letter of today. Hey, you trim off a quarter-inch around a sheet, and a few hundred million reams of paper later, you've saved a LOT of paper! Plus, the paper was watermarked. VISIBLY watermarked.

The typewriters used to create these didn't create documents which looked like they came off a laser printer. Believe me - laser printers come out with FAR cleaner text and much more precise lineup of characters than any typewriter could produce - even a high-end correcting Selectric. But I digress.

There were two types of paper for official documents and memos. For the first sheet of a document, or first-sheet letterhead paper, it was also preprinted with the AF (Or Army) seal and the unit generating the document. And, depending on the regulations of the time, there was a From: To: and Subject: preprinted on it, or Subject: To: and From:. This preprinted stuff also gave a good indication of where the margin should be.

Second and subsequent sheets had no printing, but did have watermarks. (And we won't go into such wonderful things such as carbon sets. Carbon paper, thank God, is damn near obsolete.)

Now let's take a look at the formatting. The military's positively ANAL about proper margins on their documents. The standard margin was 1.5 inches side to side, and 1.5 inch top. Bottom, well - that varied according to the typist, but was supposed to be 1.5 inches when you filled the page. If you had one or two paragraphs, it was to be double-spaced with an extra line between paragraphs. Signature blocks were solidly against the left margin, not centered.

Now - let's go over the documents in regards to those criteria above.

Paper size: Unknown. However - when the documents could be easily duplicated almost exactly off a laser printer using Microsoft Word with 12-point Times New Roman, using letter-sized paper, using default margins and line spacing... it's a fair bet that the paper size was 8.5x11. It's also not letterhead paper.

One note: We may never have seen the 'original' documents. According to some sources, the papers were transcribed into Microsoft Word and then printed out, and the originals burned. If true, then it's rather convienient that the originals aren't available to verify their provenance. A story like that should have set the 'investigative reporters' verifying these things into fits of hysterical laughter.

Now, if we figure that these ARE the originals - where's the file plan numbers? Upper right or left corners were conspicuiously blank of anything that resembles a standard military filing system notation. The paragraphs are single-spaced. There's one line between paragraphs. The signature block is centered, not left-aligned.

But there was something even odder, come to think of it. The person who supposedly did these was NOT an expert typist. In fact, supposedly he didn't type at all. If you look over the documents, regardless of content - what's the one thing you don't see?

Errors.

No misspellings. No erasures. You don't get that as an inexperienced typist farting around, typing memos to yourself. If you made a mistake, you either backed it up and retyped it (making a hash of the word), or XXX ed it out and typed the word again (making an unmistakably crappy looking document), or rolled it up and erased it then rolled it back down if you were a good typist. Those lines are straight as a laser... so to speak.

It takes a lazy damn journalist to say these things MIGHT be authentic and there's no way to prove otherwise.

OT: Definition of a Moonbat's Dilemma: GITMO to get Wind Power

Serpent -
My apologies. I just went and searched some of your previous posts and must be confusing you with another. I think the whole "free will" thing the other day threw me.

Again, my apologies.
Cuchullain

Liberallah has decreed! -- Here is the fatwa:

1) It is impossible to prove or disprove the Killian memos.

2) All 60 Minutes is guilty of is an excess of zeal.

It is heresy for any good Liberalslim to deny this!

The enemies of Liberalslam will try to trick you with reason, logic, and facts, but do not fall for their lies! Truth is what Liberallah tells you is true, and nothing else. Fear this, and tremblingly obey!

Victor: Truth is what Liberallah tells you is true, and nothing else.

I thought the Truth was what Frank IBC tells me and nothing else?

Ain't that right Mr. Frank? (consult the lint)

#120 tigger2005
Not Skippy but will try.

Take a population of 100, (colony A)99 are excellent reproducers, however they lack the ability to protect themselves, (colony B) 1 is poor at reproducing and therefore competeing for resources, however it has excellent abilities to protect itself. Indroduce a predator 'A' is now wiped out leaving no competion for 'B', 'B' now has a colony of 99 and 'A' has a colony of 1.

#1 and #16 davesax -Hi there guy - good to see you posting again. I haven't gotten beyond post #16 yet, but the problem with your links is you have to register with the NYT to get in, which I refuse to do.
Are they suggesting that because the guy was in combat he "snapped" and killed the cop or had a "flashback" and did the same thing? I wouldn't be surprised. ' cause for over a decade if you served in Vietnam and got into trouble your service in Vietnam was to blame. This is a very hackneyed route. Maybe it wasn't that he served in Iraq or Afghanistan (and if he did serve there did he serve in combat or the rear echelon)? Maybe, Saints preserve us, he was a mean, bad son of a bitch in the first place. Maybe the cop was wrong (probably the cop was an old, about to retire Vietnam veteran who snapped). The fact that he will not be buried with military honors speaks volumes about this case but can you (or anyone ) give me a link to it that I don't have to register for?

Carlos Castaneda, and his cohorts ...

#34 ZMB2 - EXCELLENT POINT!

Realwest, try here:

Tigger2005
Any further questions?

#85 shatterglass,

Good points about the documents on your website. Meanwhile the Draw George ad seems to have two extra teeth (At least in the moonbat perspective).

Meanwhile I'll repeat my rant about document forensics; namely that the documents can be examined to see if they were produced on a typewriter or a laser printer using techniques in use by government agencies a the time. Combine that with a comparison of the document set preserved from Col Killian's office and it will not take much to prove they are forgeries.

Personally, they do not pass the visual test from my own experiences of typing on a typewriter while in the military. (Unit Address not on the left, using a P.O. box instead of a street address or building number, the fact that it is a MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD which means it is an internal document and only the office symbol would be used instead of the unit address, no initials for the typist, no hyphenated words at the end of each line, and so on)

JFM

What a nut. Michael Hoyt has been around long enough; he knows the docs are forged. The content alone is enough know that they are fake. Just more evidence that liberal bias runs very deep in the community of journalist. With their collective dick slammed in the car door, they refuse to recognize the obvious...Let'em bleed.

I hope conservative politicians would finally get the message that they cannot make friends with the press. I am never amazed by what journalist are willing to do or believe to advance a liberal agenda, but am continuously stunned at how far some conservatives will go to make "buddy, buddy" with these snakes.

You know, there's a lot of drops of water falling out of the sky here. It's been going on since yesterday.

It might be rain, but we have no way to authenticate that. The sky is very cloudy, so it could be raining. But, it could be invisible aliens with squirt guns. I guess we'll never know.

jll3sonex (#124),

Great post.

There are so many things wrong with these "documents".

There are probably a dozen or more "absolutely no chance" impossibilities.

And still Mr. Hoyt talks down to us from his lofty position as if we're all as stupid as he.

#44

You know skippy, I regard ignoramuses like yourself as a long term danger to our national security and economic pre-eminence. You are trying to fuck with science with your sneaky plans to get the pseudoscience of "intelligent design" into science classrooms. I am so sick of people like you trying to drag us back into the dark ages with the Islamofascists. We don't need it, OK?

Evolution is a fact. It has been observed. Bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics and insects develop resistance to pesticides through E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N.

The bugs that have a mutation that makes them resistant to the antibiotics or pesticides survive, and pass their genes along to their offspring, so the strain becomes resistant. This is E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N.

It is exactly what happens in nature--out of billions of small mutations, many are harmful, most are neutral, and some are beneficial, i.e. they enhance an organisms odds of survival and reproductive success. Thus the organisms genes spread through the population and the mutation becomes a common trait. This is E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N.

It happens. It is observed. Even creationists don't deny that it happens--Young Earth Creationists even postulate evolution happening at rates thousands of times faster than any "evolutionist" would even imagine proposing, because they have to explain how the basic "kinds" in the Ark somehow changed into the enormous variety of critters we see today.

Besides being able to SEE EVOLUTION IN ACTION, we have nested hierarchies, the fossil record, the DNA record, transitionals galore. Evolution is one of the best supported theories (and a scientific theory is not a "guess"--do you call the theory of gravity a "guess"?) in science. Nearly all biologists accept it because it is the best explanation for things they see and work with every day. The case for evolution just gets more and more airtight every day.

Denying evolution is the face of all this evidence and trying to get pseudosciences taught in classrooms will put us in danger of losing our scientific edge, at a time when we need it more than ever. So yes, I do regard you as a threat to my country. Not as big or immediate a threat as the Islamofascists, but a threat nonetheless.

I don’t know the exact relationship between the Columbia Journalism Review and the Columbia School of Journalism, but I imagine it to be a close one,

More to the point, is the close connection with the Columbia Broadcast System, Columbia Pictures, and the Three Stooges.

CJR Editor: Memos Could Be Genuine

Then it should be simple to locate a forensic document expert to authenticate them.  Number of such experts found so far, by anyone: zero.

Of course, the more pressing question is: has Michael Hoyt, Executive Editor of the Columbia Journalism Review, stopped beating his wife yet?
 

The Three Stooges?

Burkett, Mapes and Rather?

The Serpent 1.0 -

The Mystical Magical Belly Button Lint of TLOP {All Hail TLOP! Hail TLOP!} is most unhappy with your output. It is reconfiguring your algorithm (the next release will be The Serpent 2.0) so that you'll stop posting your inane drivel all over the place.

#141) Rayra,

You don't believe that the left is fundamentally Atheistic in nature (their core beliefs)?

You don't think that Atheism has anything to do with Liberalism, or Communism, or Soacialism?

You don't think the left's apparent denial of reality is in any way related to this?

Why do my opinions bother you so much?

Thom: TLOP! Hail TLOP!} is most unhappy with your output. It is reconfiguring your algorithm ...

See there Thom, I knew you thought you spoke for All of TLOP.

Frank IBC apparently does too, but "I" know that he's just a pathetic little figment of your imagination.

#142 tigger

You know skippy, I regard ignoramuses like yourself as a long term danger to our national security and economic pre-eminence

Uh, skippy didn't respond to your question, I did BenZ.
Survivors passing on genes is Natural Selection and is the antithesis to evolution, 'ignoramuses' must include; Albert Einstien, Sir Isaac Newton, pilgrims, founding fathers et.el. So your heros are Marx, Engels, Stalin, Mao and Micheal Moore (good evolutionary atheists all).

# 130

I understand how evolution works. Skippy denies evolution, so I want him to explain how bacteria can then develop resistance to antibiotics, since he evidently thinks organisms cannot change.

If skippy allows for some of the bacteria to have a slight mutation that enables them to resist the antibiotic, and that this mutation then spreads through the population, he must then explain why small changes cannot add up over long periods of time to big changes. He must show a mechanism that prevents the small changes from continuing past a certain point (the point where you have a new species, usually defined as a species unable to reproduce with the "parent" species).

He must show why, given enough time, mutation+natural selection cannot produce major morphological changes, thus producing biodiversity.

I would like it if skippy would produce his own theory that can replace evolution as an explanation for biodiversity, Let's see your evidence, skippy. Let's see your experiments. I'm genuinely interested.

Two points:

CJS did employ Algore a few years back, so you know where they're coming from (has Corey Pein been exhumed yet?).

They did give us Heather Nauert, so at least one good thing came out of there.

You get the feeling that these guys are like modern day horsewhip makers hoping to make money from those newfangled automobiles... The MSM had better wake up in a hurry if it wants to survive...

Sure, bloggers made mistakes in the Memogate scandal... And had biases like all humans do...

But these "journalists" are missing the point... The blogosphere is self-correcting... The mistakes and prejudices posted on the blogs are pared away in an open exchange.. While the truth wiggles out through the slightest crack, whether it is a crack in liberal or conservative armor...

The truth survives scrutiny.. And the biggest advantage of the blogs is the intensive and rapid scrutiny it provides..

There is no "Mary Mapes" on the blogs... No central authority controlling or limiting the exchange of information... There is no "Dan Rather" who can gloss over misconduct or dismiss criticism with a wave of an imperial magic wand..

It is easy, and often tempting, to hide the truth away in a newsroom with editorial censorship and finanicial and proprietary control of information, but it is simply impossible to do so in a free exchange of ideas in the blogosphere.

To me, the development of the blogs sort of parallels the growth of the scientific method... Sure, there are screwy reports of "cold fusion-like" news and bias on the blogs... But the availibility of nearly instant verification, refutation, and criticism of information operates as a powerful correcting force...

As the CBS news inestigation plainly stated, if CBS had followed its own standards, the scandal wouldn't have happened. Journalists are brought up to believe that simply telling the truth requires such an instruction manual. The sad fact, which these "journalists" can't bring themselves to recognize, is that the blogosphere just doesn't need such standards.. There is plenty of bias and misinformation on the blogs co-mingled with the truth, but the breadth and speed of the internet rids the wheat from the chaff in short order.

Well, we ARE the stupid ones, aren't we? We expect the folks who produce the news to be honest, accurate and truthful. AND to have all their damn ducks in a row before they bring out the stories.

We shouldn't have to fact-check their asses!

J.

145 Spiny Norman

The Three Stooges were the wunderkind of Columbia Pictures, you know.

As to whether they resemble Rather and Co. or the failed domination of the Big Three, I would have to defer to a more eminent Stoogologist.

Is there a Frenchman in the house?

#150) Rayra,

You never responded to my question, but I think I know the answer.

damaged psyche.

Yes, Yes, all of us Non-Atheists (non-Liberals) have "damaged psyches" (or are "delusional idiots" in Thom's words). Just keep praying that you really do have magic "free will" powers and that there won't be any ultimate consequences for your actions.

#92 Lokki - "...Leprechauns fall into this category too."
Whatchu got against us Leprechauns, anyway?!

#157 The Serpent

You will either link to the post where I called "Non-Atheists" "delusional idiots" or you will stop lying.

The simple fact is that I called you a delusional idiot and that assessment stands.

#159)

Rayra: don't dare make a judgement on anything'

Okay, so in your judgement what is the Objective (Logical, Algorithmic) cause of Evil?

Or do you deny that Evil has an Objective existence?

In your opinion is it objectively better to be a Conservative or a Liberal (ultimate quality of life)? Why? What is the Objective reason?

Al Gore doing rap would be a formidable algorithmic evil.

tigger2005
And a random change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to life.

Thom: You will either link to the post where I called "Non-Atheists" "delusional idiots" or you will stop lying. The simple fact is that I called you a delusional idiot and that assessment stands.

I believe in "God" and deny the existence of "free will"

You deny the existence of "God" and believe you possess magical "free will" powers that allow you to defy the laws of physics.

As you keep repeating this is the only conversation we have had.

If this isn't the reason that you consider me a "delusional idiot" then please link to the post where you explain the real reason?

#14 Poitiers-Lepanto Sorry for repeating this over and over: the moonbats have really learned well Goebbels' lesson and they KNOW that repeating a lie makes it true in the mind of many.

Absolutely right. This is just one of the lies that have been repeated so relentlessly that they are considered received truth by many. Listed briefly, these are:

1. George W. Bush's National Guard service was less than honorable; he received special favors, went AWOL, and committed court-martial offenses,
2. George W. Bush is dumber tham a sack of hammers,
3. In spite of his dumbness, he is an incredibly malicious schemer,
4. The 2000 election was stolen,
5. The turkey was plastic.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

You left out my personal favorite:

"The since discredited Swift Boat veterans ... "

#142 tigger2005

Since you seem to have a bit of a reading comprehension problem, I'll keep this simple. My comment had nothing to do with debating evolution. Had you read more closely and not reacted on emotion, you might see that.

That bacteria grown resistent to antibiotics (and other points) is compelling evidence of evolution, though not proof that man descended from some primordial blob. It is, as you correctly note, the most satisfactory and logical explanation we have and is supported by strong evidence. Similarly, that the documents are forged is the most satisfactory and logical explanation that we have. It is, likewise, supported by overwhelming evidence.

The point of the post - clearly lost on you in your vitriol - is that the CJR cravenly ducks behind the logical impossibility of the documents being "proven" (note the use of quotation marks in my original post as well) false, despite overwhelming evidence for it. In their bias, they'd never accord such benefit of the doubt to creation, which, logically they should if the issue is truly about a lack of authoritative "proof."

And, by the way, until I start beheading people, flying planes into buildings, or blowing up discos full of teenagers, you can shut up with the Islamofacist comparisons.

I'll await your apology.

Oh, no. An epistemologic piss off.

tigger2005
Oops! forget the rest.

And a random change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to life. Geneticist Barney Maddox, 1992

I defer to Barney

#164)
Rayra: I couldn't give a shit about your opinions.

Then why do you keep directing posts at me – shear hatred?

Rayra: It's your pedantic humorless sneering delivery of caricature that annoys.

On behalf of reality I apologize for not conforming to your wishes and expectations.

Rayra: The assertion that ALL of everything is Bad, except what you are selling. Hucksterism, wrapped in a fundamentalist dialectic.

No, I only assert that lunatics who assert that there are no ultimate consequences for their actions tend to behave exactly as if that is what they believe.

Rayra: Either you are a Moby, unconciously echoing the feverish Idealism of your ilk in your pretended ultra-religious posturing, or you are the real thing, and I'll have no patience with either.

Ahhh so you believe that “the matter” exist independent of observation?

Yes, that is very "scientific" of you, I’m sure.

#165 The Serpent

Well, let me put it this way:

You believe in a God who created moral agents without free will and that this God will punish these hapless robots when they "commit" an evil act.

If that isn't delusional idiocy, then nothing is.

And you're still misrepresenting my position on free will despite at least 3 attempts to explain it to you. This is also a sign of idiocy.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled

<GAZE>

Hmmm Columbia School of Journalism or Harvard Med. That is a tough decision. At both you learn to DOCTOR things up.

Rufus Lee King -

What, don't you remember the time Algore did the Macarena at the 1996 Democrat convention?

The Serpent -

So now you're a Communist Presbyterian Jew?

Now that's a new one.

Now remove ye and burn ye thy belly-button lint post haste, lest ye get stoned with the person who casts the first sin, or something.

Skippy, didn't mean to step on your toes. At first I thought I was answering a simple query on the mechanics of resistance.

And bury your mistakes.

Ahhh so you believe that “the matter” exist independent of observation?

I guess if you don't see the dogshit that you stepped in, then it doesn't stink, right?

#169)

Rayra Please describe what you THINK I've said, specifically, that would include me in your Demonolgy - OTHER than my challenging you. Or was that enough for you to lump me in?

Forgive me Rayra, I’m still learning your ways …

So you are saying that your posts where you clearly seem to be disagreeing with me and agreeing with Thom, are actually evidence of you agreeing with me and disagreeing with Thom?

Why don’t you just tell me whether you agree with me or disagree with me and if you disagree, perhaps you could even explain the precise point and reason why you disagree?

So you aren't a member of the Carlos Castaneda club with Mr. Frank?

#135 Slam Man - Thanks for the link; apparently they ARE blaming the shooting on his combat experience and inability (I suppose) to recognize that he was back in the USA.
As to a military funeral with honors, I have to reserve judgment because I still really don't know what happened (which is certainly not "Slam Man's" fault).
Where did he get the gun to shoot the cops?
Why was he carrying a gun in the first place?
How long had he been back in the World?
Why did the cops focus on him (or, what was he doing, not doing) at the time?
No matter what the full facts are, this is clearly a tragedy for all and especially for the police office killed in the line of HIS duty.

Help! Is the donut around the hole, or is the hole inside the donut? This is driving me nuts!

Uh, what were we talking about again?

Frank IBC: I guess if you don't see the dogshit that you stepped in, then it doesn't stink, right?

Last night you dreamt that you stepped in dog shit mr. Frank, did it still stink this morning when you woke up?

Furthermore, what is a tamale in the face of death?

#157 Rufus Lee King:

Don't ask the French - they think Jerry Lewis is a comic genius.

The DNC/MSM efforts to rescue the forged documents serve a purpose. DNC/MSM is not looking to broaden its base. It is looking to play to its existing moonbat/crazy base. The crazies are the ones who organize fraudulent voter registration and tip disputed elections, through fraud and intimidation, in the Dems' favor. The constitutional crisis is upon us and efforts such as CJR's serve only to rally the left's stormtroopers for the battles to come.

#180)

Rayra: Sad tool.

You mean a Tool of TLOP?

If only I had "magic powers" and could deny Her Will as easily as you do.

Rayra: You are STILL addressing a caricature of what you think I might be. You are far off-base in your assessment of me, and your faux-Socratic Method is for nought.

Yes, well unfortunately I lack your magic mind reading powers, but that's probably because I'm only a figment of your imagination.

And how can we learn to tell the truly false from the merely bogus? Do bong hits help?

I think I will make a Mobius Strip that says:

"How to keep 'The Serpent' busy - SEE BELOW:"

"How to keep 'The Serpent' busy - SEE BELOW:"

etc. etc.

(Apologies to Thom, regarding my near occasion of sin involving a certain ethnic group that originates in northern Europe in the region between Germany and Russia. :) )

185 xbalanke

I have also heard some French worship the Stooges. A friend told me he heard of an elaborate analysis of their work representing the three ages of man, such as the loss of innocence, etc.

I'd really like to hear more, if anyone knows.

Her Will

Oh, Lordy, now he's a Jewish Presbyterian Communist Feminist...

Uh, RWC...I'm looking in your direction... :)

#162 Rufus Lee King - ROFLMAO!

192 Rayra

Do I take that to mean you propose we eat our way out of the conundrum? It would, I suppose, eliminate the donut and the hole.

Whatever you do folks, never, EVER place bellybutton lint inside a donut hole.

We will all be

doomed!

DOOMED!

DOOMED!

#184 Rufus Lee King:

Furthermore, what is a tamale in the face of death?

Uh, the willingness taco where no man has gone before?

#190 Frank IBC

Is the Mobius strip made of belly button lint?

#172)

Thom: You believe in a God who created moral agents without free will and that this God will punish these hapless robots when they "commit" an evil act.

You are utterly clueless Thom.

You are making assumptions about my beliefs based on a lack of evidence.

But that isn’t uncommon when you think like an Atheist (a Liberal).

Thom -

Oh...you do live on the edge, you do. :P

#191 Rufus Lee King:

I didn't know that. Maybe there's hope for the French after all ... NAH!

See what happens when you play with your food?

like an Atheist

Uh, what happened to the cute little parentheses, i.e.,
"(A)theist"?

#199 Rayra:

You're such a mono-topic poster, you ought to have a blog of your own.

Could this be it?

188 andthenblammo! - well they sure don't hurt!

You are making assumptions about my beliefs based on a lack of evidence.

Well, let's see:

1) You deny free will
2) You believe in "God"
3) You like to prattle on about "ultimate consequences"

What, exactly, is inaccurate about my summary of your beliefs?

202 xbalanke

The French loves us so much they hate us.

Andblammo -

More like subether.com

I'm not sure but I think The Serpent is French.

Do you suppose the CJR is trying to clue us in to their authentication of time travel?

That would explain everything.

And think of the money CBS could make peddling reruns in prime time all over again.

Tigger2005
macroevolution?

Don't get me started. When mine graduates from there, I'll give the full data dump on that institution of higher "education" from my point of view. Suffice it to say for the moment that the criticisms directed at CU on these boards from time to time are justified and that the bias and distortions twice now published by the CJR on Memogate are illustrative of the same bias and methods of communicating the bias in academic courses of study.

What you see in the CJR pieces are a very natural outgrowth of what CU students are taught to think and how best to persuade.

There is a lot on the internet displaying the lack of academic diversity at CU. Check it out.

Text from BenZacharia's link:

One of two 19-year-old fish with human-like facial features in Chongju, about 140 km (88 miles) south of Seoul on January 10, 2005. The hybrid species fish were born between a carp and a leather carp in the pond of a personal house in Chongju. Each of the two female fish is 80 cm (32 inches) long and 50 cm (20 inches) in circumference. The owner of the fish said on Monday that their faces have begun to look more and more human over the last couple of years. Picture taken January 10. KOREA OUT REUTERS/Chungcheong Today

Photo

he's a Jewish Presbyterian Communist Feminist...

Picturing that line being sung by Julie Andrews...

#61 American Infidel

Just heard a factoid on FOXNEWS about England:

A "factoid" isn't a "small fact" or tidbit of information. It's a NON-fact. See, "humanoid," or "asteroid."

/lexicon nazi off

215 Frank IBC

Yipes. If it weren't for the gills, I could easily be fooled.

#213 Rayra

This poster has a "Gordo"-like frequency of repetitive and predictable derailments, I wonder where he is right now.

218 Jeeves

Does that mean a hemorrhoid is without hemmorrhs?

While the bloggers strenuously assert that the documents are forgeries, nobody really knows,

While the bloggers strenuously assert that my medals and ribbons from the Martian Navy are forgeries, nobody really knows...

They are proven fake, idiot. Now as to whether Dan Rather is in fact the Queen of the Space Unicorns, well, ok, nobody really knows that...

cathy :-)

205 andthenblammo! On the other hand, when you attack someone like my pal Rayra, you may have gone one toke over the line my friend.

Serpent - (too many posts to list) 1. Liberals are not Atheists (all the liberals I know are either Roman Catholic, Jews or one or more of the varieties of Protestants out there 2. What Thom said, very clearly (I'm a friend of his) is why would God create man but deny man freedom of choice and then punish man for committing Evil Acts? Your sole answer ( to virtually everything) is: There is no God.

Kinda reminds me of some graffiti I read on the wall in a Men's Room (OK, I ADMIT THAT I READ SOME OF THAT STUFF!):

"Religion is dead"- Nietzsche

"God is dead" - Nietzsche (different handwriting and ink color)

"Nietzsche is dead" - GOD (all printed, block letters, Red ink)

There was no further graffiti on that wall below that last one.

Moreover, although you don't fit the classic Troll profile, (i.e., drop the literary equivalent of an Atomic hand grenade in the middle of a thread and then run like hell) you have managed to piss off and misquote a number of the most respected regulars out here and, I therefore, with the powers vested in me by someone or something sayeth unto thou:

GAZE, MOTHERFUCKER!

219 Rayra

Isn't there actually an emerging theory of relativity involving sprinkles? Or are you just infiltrating my cosmology with your favorite flavor?

RIP Ford -

I noticed that correlation yesterday, too.

225 cathy f

Our Queen of Space[bar] Unicorns is still superscript uninformed.

So, where did the idiot go? He likes to do this vanishing act after he's been demolished.

#96 The Serpent 1/14/2005

OT and way late but here goes,

I guess that means that “free will” exist also, right?

Why is it acceptable for you to believe in “free will” but not “God”? Why is the one belief “better” (more “logical”?) than the other?

Neil Peart said it all so well in "Free Will" so click it if you haven't read it in a while.

BTW, I wan't born in Lotus Land but I went to school there.

Charles,
I have a 1971 IBM Selectric II with both of the golf ball things sitting here on a shelf. Perhaps I should mail it to Hoyt and have him recreate the memos? I can't recreate them and Lord knows I tried!
I also spent 20 years typing on this typewriter so no one can say that I am not experienced with it. Perhaps Hoyt can get it to do things I never could? Ya know, since he seems to be the self appointed expert on IBM typewriters!

Spit!

#233 Rayra - if there's an .edu in there, ANYWHERE, it's only in it's e-mail address.

"While the bloggers strenuously assert that the documents are forgeries, nobody really knows..."

I just had a disturbing thought. Take the sentence above and change it to read the following:

"While the bloggers strenuously assert that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are forgeries, nobody really knows..."

It is this kind of dangerous relativism that can get people killed. An inability to establish objective truths, that something is in fact FALSE, and that it is so false that everyone must know it, is just as important as knowing that something is in fact TRUE.

Columbia has deeper problems than merely admitting that the CBS documents were fake. They have a problem with metaphysical reality. This "school" has become no different fron distinguishing reality than as a mental institution.

238 Rayra

To think that at the end of my days I get the rasberry is just too much like the just deserts I probably deserve from the cosmic jokester.

Rayra

But actually, I now remember the strange new theory of totality is called string theory, rather than sprinkles.

I have no clue what its really about. Unless there is some string with a rude message attached at the end of the trail.

#223 Rufus Lee King

Does that mean a hemorrhoid is without hemmorrhs?

LOL! You got it! A pile by any other name...

#108 TotallySirius

Also...

Once again we have the "fallacy of the false burden".

CBS asserts that the documents are true,therefore the burden of proof is on CBS to prove they are genuine.

I've read this in many places, and it misses a very very relevant point: while those who claim that the fakes are fake have no obligation to prove that they are fakes, they have in fact proven that they are fakes. Absolutely proven, well-beyond even an unreasonable doubt.

cathy :-)

cathyf:

Now as to whether Dan Rather is in fact the Queen of the Space Unicorns, well, ok, nobody really knows that...

LOL. Thank you for bringing that lovely Treacherism to my belated attention.

#233 Rayra:

No bet. There's a .edu in there somewhere.

Ouch! I resemble that remark...

I have to kick myself for not seeing the link between these CBS forgeries and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion forgeries. I mean, I thought to myself, if people can't accept that the CBS documents are forgeries, then they would also be unable to accept that the Protocols are also forgeries. And that could mean a lot of people get killed.

It's only one small step in a necessary logic that leads to murder.

#215 Frank IBC:

BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!

#44 Skippy, et all

Let's all chill for a while. Intone along with me, "Ohm, Ohm, Watt, Ampere, Ohm."

I am not going to debate evolution, but for full disclosure, I am in favor of evolution, across the board!

I think Skippy made good points, regardless of his views concerning evolution. Let me try to disentangle the good points from the evolution debate, if I may...

You know, evolution has never been "proven" either

In the Philosophy of Science (which I regard as a questionable endeavor to begin with but anyway), there is a current fad of "Popperism" regarding "proof" and scientific theories.

In short, a theory can never be proven. A theory can only resist falsification. Therefore, a proper theory must be falsifiable.

This is just the contemporary philosopher's way of saying, "you should test theories with experiments." But it is perhaps a valuable observation, for non-science majors anyway.

So by the current Popperism, evolution has never been proven. Neither has gravity, relativity, quantum mechanics, electricity, magnetism, nor a million other things we might or might not be experiencing every day. Proof is only for math. Science never proves anything.

This is the same Sir Karl Popper who is worshipped by George Soros.

(I think Popperism reduces to absurdity in the face of a theory, "water is made of hydrogen and oxygen." Or it reduces to logical positivism and linguistic analysis, which are the same thing as absurdity.)

somehow I suspect that the Columbia Journalism Review, if it comments about the schoolbook stickers in Cobb County, Georgia, won't be so quick to say "hey, this debate is really inconclusive."

"Ohm, Ohm..." I am so chillin' water condenses on me.

I think your major point is that CJR is biased. I think we can all agree on that!

And you may not be knocking evolution, either.

In both cases, there is no real debate. Evolution is a fact. The forgery of the memos is a fact. Columbia Journalism Review is being irresponsible (to put it mildly) regarding the forgeries. Just as religious fundamentalists are being irresponsible regarding evolution.

I might be twisting your thoughts and words, but I'm still chanting "Ohm" and am not going to debate evolution.

Rayra: All part of the LLLeft's over-arching modus of demolishing the underpinnings of Western / Judeo-Christian Society - remove religion by any means possible. Remove ANY judgment basis at all.

You mean Remove and then Replace with Atheism (Solipsism and “free will”).

Rayra: Some LLLeftist Profs do it out of some rose-colored 'when all are equal there will be no strife.

Right, because then Solipsism would be True again and when Solipsism is true there is no strife (or Individuality) … only free will (action without consequence)

Rayra: Many do it deliberately, knowing exactly what they are destroying attempting to destroy.

Do tell … do tell …

Hmmm...and Gordon is still nowhere to be seen...just a coincidence, I'm sure...

“it may never be possible for anyone to authenticate or discredit the documents.”

As any student of logic knows, it is quite possible to have a situation where one can prove something to be true, yet impossible to prove false. For instance, say only one shop carries red berries, and they wilt after one day. If I have red berries, I can prove I went to the shop today, yet it is impossible to prove that I did not go to the shop. It can be quite impossible to prove poor copies of a document to be genuine, even if they were, simply by stating that they COULD have been created. It is also possible to cut and paste copies of authentic signatures to bogus documents. Saying that the copied document contains a valid copied signature proves nothing. However, it does not follow that if the documents cannot be proven to be genuine, that they cannot also be proven to be fakes.

#128 Rayra:

There is no single typewriter, regardless of what bells and whistles it has which can produce kerning.

There are typewriters (and were in the 70s--I used many of them, manual AND electric) with PROPORTIONAL spacing but these only allow up to four keystrokes per word. For instance, the letter "i" takes one keystroke's value in proportional spacing. The letter "M" takes four keystroke values. Even so, they still cannot produce kerning which is where the tail of say a "y" tucks under the crossbar of a "t" as in the word "batty".

Typesetters of books and magazines could do it back in the day, but not typeWRITERS.

#252 sportutegrl:

It's only impossible to prove if they won't accept the proof. They are in denial because of the implications of admitting they were fake. Now not only are the memos fake but if they admit it they have to explain the "stall" all this time and they can't do that.

I'm waiting for the 'tell all' books to come out after Gungadan passes on to that great newsroom in the sky. There should be some ringding stories about this when that day comes.

Dog is love!

#243 cathyf

Exactly!

The burden is always with the prosecution(CBS),then the defense(conservative blogs) has the option to rebut the prosecution's assertions,and in this case, Charles et al did a very fine job of rebuttal while CBS never made their case.

In a court of law,the judge would dismiss the case.

#254 Foreign Devil

My point is that the report CLAIMS that since the documents cannot be proven real, than IT FOLLOWS that they therefore cannot be proven fake. This statement is illogical. It is quite possible to be able prove something one way, yet be unable to prove it another. My red berry hypothesis shows this.

To put it another way: Even if the copies were real, (they aren't), it would be impossible to prove this fact. However, it is still possible to prove them to be false. The fact that they cannot be proven to be real does not take away the fact that they can be revealed to be forgeries.

I move that we move "the tnepreS" permantntly in our collective lizardoid minds into the category "troll", with all of the rights, etc, due that position. GAZE.

Rayra, will you marry me? I have donuts...

Charles,
thanks for making Appendix 4 available, it provides ample copying and pasting opportunities, such as:

Tytell concluded that the Killian documents were probably not produced on an IBM Selectric Composer.
(...)
Therefore, he concluded that Times New Roman could not have been available on a typewriter in the early 1970s and the Killian documents must have been produced on a computer.

Perhaps it's this sort of ambiguity in the report which unsettled Mr. Hoyt.

These are media/journalism people and their trade and tools are words. Their argument is entirely semantics. Change the label and you have changed the argument more effectively than repeatedly rehashing why conclusions should be obvious.

From Merriam Webster:
FORGERY:
1 the act of forging a signature, or making or writing something false. Forgery is a crime and is punishable by law.
2 something made or written **falsely to deceive**: The painting was a forgery. The signature on the check was not mine but a forgery.
3 Poetic. **invention; fiction**.

These qualifications about intent and fiction are the basis of the denials and can continue to be used because reason and accurancy can remain debatable and impossible to prove without a specific admission from Rather/his colaborative group.

Change the label for the documents to COUNTERFEIT, where there is no qualification for intent or consideration whether the copy's content is "accurate" or not. Passing counterfeit money, for example is illegal as is trying to sell a perfect copy of the Mona Lisa (where nothing beyond the date of the canvas is required to prove the painting is not genuine). Intent and subject matter are irrelevant to arguing conterfeit vs. original.

COUNTERFEIT n.
1 something copied and passed as genuine; forgery: his ten-dollar bill looks genuine, but it is a counterfeit. This chest, though made to look like an antique, is plainly a counterfeit.
2 Archaic. a a copy. b an image; likeness; portrait: What find I here? Fair Portia’s counterfeit (Shakespeare).
3 Obsolete. an impostor.

The documents are not the originals. There is no empirical evidence that they are originals and a larger body of evidence that they are not. They were not created at the time represented on the documents.

What I don't understand is why CBS apparently unconcerned with who counterfeited these documents and thereby placed CBS in this position? Great damage has resulted but CBS seems to have no interest in justice or compensation.

Questions for CBS/all media:
Would CBS protect the identity of a murderer, arsonist, molester/rapist or drug dealer if the individual was a "source?" Or only assist in non-violent crimes?

Should laws be changed to hold media responsible for aiding/abetting or as an accessory to crimes committed by sources? Speaking for myself, I don't WANT my "right to know" to include assisting in any crime.

What is CBS's position on events staged or documents created for the purpose of using or maniputlating the media (and thus public opinion)?

#251 Frank IBC

Bite your tongue! nodrog may have a special alarm that goes off every time he is mentioned.

Regarding journalists, I have a feeling, but no proof, that the very best of them do not go to any journalism school, but rather learn from the school of life.

As far as Columbia goes, it is scary, as are most of our top rated universities. They have so many Looney Toon LLL's, who are tenured, that it may take a generation or two to bring them even back to center.

Parents are paying a fortune to have their kids brainwashed. Any middle of the road or conservative parents and students should try and do some research into the school's leanings, and the leanings of their Profs.

Google University probably has a lot of info. Our last kid graduated from Grad School in 1997...but he is a Physicist, who is now a computer geek, so he may have voted for Space Ghost as a write in! :)

Michelle Malkin mentioned this thread in her blog, and quoted posts by RIP Ford (#5) and myself (#7).

I feel deeply honored.

Alright ErnieG!

She didn't quote The Serpent? WTH?!

The CJR could be a real magazine. And then again, maybe not.