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Sullivan's Tortured Logic

Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 8:26:46 am PST

At City Journal, Heather Mac Donald responds to Andrew Sullivan’s overheated article for the New York Times Review of Books, in which he accuses the Bush administration of “torture:” Tortured Logic on Torture.

Many of Sullivan’s factual claims are tenuous at best. He asserts, for example, that “we now know that in Guantanamo, burning cigarettes were placed in the ears of detainees.” I have not read the two document collections that he is reviewing, though I have read the key documents that they contain. If this damning allegation is presented therein, however, we would have heard about it in the press. Instead, Sullivan is likely basing his assertion on an FBI memo that the ACLU released last month. That memo, written from the bureau’s Sacramento, California, office, reported that an unknown, unnamed civilian had walked in to the office to charge that burning cigarettes had been placed in prisoners’ ears in Iraq. The memo did not assess the civilian’s credibility or give any basis for allowing a reader to do so. No other evidence has come out to corroborate the claim, but even if it were true, Iraq is not Guantanamo.

Indeed, Sullivan treats every uncorroborated and uninvestigated allegation made by prisoners about their treatment as gospel. The fact that prisoners were abused at Abu Ghraib, however, does not mean that prisoners don’t lie about their experience. An interrogator from Afghanistan calls the claims of prisoner-celebrities such as Moazzam Begg “astonishing” in their mendacity. “Begg is complaining about handling under my watch,” the interrogator told me. “Begg was treated as a guest, even though he was caught red-handed in the most sinister situation. Yet the press treats him with utter credulity.”

Read it all.

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220 comments

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1 Old Buick Tanker  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:28:20am

Can we show them what real torture is?

Oh, First!

2 Powderfinger  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:28:52am

Does Sully think naked pyramids are torture?

3 Lyana  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:29:31am

Nice follow-up to the story about the man who slaughtered his daughter, eh?

Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I can't say I'm real concerned with how we treat people who do that kind of thing...

4 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:33:33am

If only Bush had supported gay marriage, Sullivan would still love him, and would probably volunteer to go down to Guantanamo to organize the naked pyramids.

5 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:33:43am

#3

Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I can't say I'm real concerned with how we treat people who do that kind of thing...

I have to agree with you there.


Parson, if you are on today I have a question for you.

Can I drop you an email?

6 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:34:54am

According to Arianna Sullivan and his fellow moonbats at the NYT, things like sleep deprivation, playing loud music, and providing detained terrorists with Coca-Cola at bedtime constitute "torture."

By their standards, our college dorms are dungeons of unspeakable horror.

7 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:35:12am

I can't read Andrew's overly emotional stuff anymore. His commentary is inconsistent and he doesn't seem to research much beyond the headlines.

When the CBS thing first came out - he sided with KOS - and the KOS logic. It wasn't until the facts and evidence against CBS really came into sharp focus that he abandoned KOS.
(without apologies I might add)
He's got the finger in the wind politicking down to a strange form of modern art. He's like a Pollack - all scribbles and crazy - no clear picture.

8 Thom  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:38:48am

#3 Lyana

Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I can't say I'm real concerned with how we treat people who do that kind of thing...

Like most people I was shocked when the abu ghraib story broke.

A few beheadings and truck bombs later and I was wishing I could help abuse these monsters.

A little slow on the uptake I am.

9 RedWhiteAndJew  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:39:32am

I wonder where Mr. Sullivan would rather spend an evening; Abu Ghraib pre-liberation of Iraq, or after.

Actually, given the descriptions of the "torture" methods used by coalition jailers, it sounds indistinguishable to a night of the kind of clubbing Mr. Sullivan is inclined toward.

10 Dave the.....  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:39:37am

OT, but you know, this is a good story. More on Milw election fraud. Turns out Wisconsin Republicans warned Milwaukee a head of time about fake voter registrations, but the city did nothing and allowed them to vote. The Democratic governor of Wisc doesn't think it's a problem. Imagine that. Long article, here are some highlights.

[Link: www.jsonline.com...]


In the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee, at least 186 people voted from invalid addresses that officials had been warned about before the election, according to a new Journal Sentinel analysis of voter information.

The votes came from addresses that were among 5,619 the state Republican Party challenged less than a week before the election as non-existent. The city Election Commission rejected the claim, saying the party hadn't met the high legal standard for removing names from poll lists.

Nearly all the 186 votes in the latest Journal Sentinel analysis are among the more than 1,200 votes the newspaper determined this week came from invalid addresses. The 186 votes are noteworthy, however, since the city was warned the addresses were problematic.

Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle, who opposes a photo ID requirement, said Tuesday he believes most of the issues raised could be traced back to processing problems, not fraud.
"I think we have a pretty good system," Doyle said. "If you register at the polls, you have to show appropriate identification to show that you are who you claim to be and that you reside at that location."

11 Joel  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:39:51am

Sullivan has become increasingly irrelevant the pat year. I quit readinghim due to his obsession with gay marraige.

12 equable  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:40:34am

Off topic, but just saw on the news:

"France announces that it arrested four terror suspects, who planned to go to Iraq and attempt to kill coalition troops."

You mean.. they didn't give them asylum, and eventually give them sainthood?

13 mikeyslaw  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:40:46am

"Burning cigarettes in their ears." Don't they know cigarettes cause cancer?

14 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:41:35am

#4 Ed (not Moran)

If only Bush had supported gay marriage, Sullivan would still love him, and would probably volunteer to go down to Guantanamo to organize the naked pyramids.

Are you kidding? After a few hits of poppers, he'd climb on top.

15 mal  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:41:37am

Heather Mac Donald gives Andrew a lesson. Nice

16 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:42:05am

I hope someone emails this link to Sullivan.

I used to read the Daily Dish on a regular basis, and it is pathetic to think that basically Sullivan cares more about legal gay marriage (Andy, go to Vermont, get a civil union with your boy friend, and tell me if it feels any different than being married) than he does about the future of Western Civilization.


If a man like John Francois, who basically agrees with the squishy socialists of Europe had gotten into the White House, do you really think anything would be done to stop Iran from getting the bomb (unless maybe Israel was willing to risk UN sanctions by trying to do something about it, although I doubt Israel has the militart capacity for repeated airstrikes 1500 km away). Once Iran and Syria have nuclear weapons (they do cooperate on most issues) how long before a nuclear attack on a Western City?

Andy, you and your boyfriend can go to a Unitarian or Metropolitan Community church, maybe even an Episcopal Church (like the Catholic church of your upbringing in every way except they don't take stands on politically unpopular issues) and have a minister declare you husband and wife. The only thing missing is a state license. Frame your Vermont Civil Union certificate instead.


Is gay marriage really so important that you're willing to give the Islamists a time out while we address this as the most important issue of the day?

17 BIG  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:44:53am

I'm getting sick hearing about the so-called torture at Abu Ghraib.

Do you realize how much money some guys in Hollywood would pay to be led around by a chick in fatigues while wearing a collar?

18 On the Mark  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:45:10am

Plain and simple...Andrew Sullivan is an "enemy of the state." He has no concern for this nation, and like so many of the "liberal elite," would simply "give" our country away to those who would destroy it, if he had his choice. Three cheers for Heather MacDonald for writing an article which demonstrates the true depth of Sullivan's anal-cranial inversion. [Link: worlddebate.blogspot.com...]

19 RedWhiteAndJew  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:46:03am
Burning cigarettes in their ears

Hopefully, sometime in the near future, there will be a Marine using Zaqarwi's (he's not worth the effort of research the correct spelling of his name) skull as an ash tray.

Smoke him if you've got him, I say.

20 coulterclone  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:46:06am

Many of Sullivan’s factual claims are tenuous at best. He asserts, for example, that “we now know that in Guantanamo, burning cigarettes were placed in the ears of detainees.”

Uh...which END of the burning cigarettes were placed in the ears of the detainees? Filter Tip? Menthol? Low Nicotine?

I can think of another place in a detainee I'd insert a burning cigarette........wait, scratch that.....make it a Macanudo.

21 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:46:11am

BIG

Normally what you say is true.

But it would take a really desperate man to pay Lyndie England for torture. She ran through the ugly forest and hit every tree.

22 Truth Junkie  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:48:21am
treats every uncorroborated and uninvestigated allegation made ... as Gospel

Sounds a LOT like C=BS, don't it?

23 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:48:37am

18 On the Mark

It is so sad, though. Sullivan got it. He understood the danger of Islamo-facism. He understood the stakes of the Israel-Palestinian situation. He understood the need to take out Saddam Hussein in the context of 9-11.

Then the Mass Supremes said hooray for gay marriage, GWB said not so fast, and all of a sudden Bush can do no right.

24 Lyana  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:49:04am

#8 Thom

Post 9/11, I set out to understand Islam. It's been a long, awful journey... The more I know, the less I like it.

That's the hard thing with all of this. How do we keep our humanity while doing what we'll have do to deal with savages?

25 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:50:09am

I just emailed Nancy Andy a link to this thread.

26 Beagle  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:50:54am

A prisoner cowering before an unmuzzled dog is "torture". By that measure, residential neighborhoods in the United States are on par with Vlad the Impaler.

27 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:51:53am

Andrew Sullivan is little more than a petty, malignant narcissist at this point. BTW, isn't it about time for another "pledge drive"? What did the last one raise $80,000 dollars? All for "increased bandwidth expenses" associated with his site. I swear his website is the only one I'm aware of that requires a constant infusion of cash.

28 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:52:04am

I see registration is closed. I wonder if One Note Andy is already registered at LGF.

29 centaur  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:52:38am

I too no longer read Sully regularly. I tried. Such is the nature of the blogosphere... I've seen this happen, someone gets all passionate over one issue, and then catches a sniffle of BDS and by association becomes obsessed with opposing Bush on all fronts.

Sully had for a long time been critical of Bush's overspending. But it is the gay marriage issue that really sent him off. And now with the torture. We just lost 30 guys today and right now I could not give a damn if some of Saddam's thugs or their Islamist brothers-in-arms have been handled a bit roughly.

30 BIG  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:53:01am

#21 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

With enough alcohol, even Lyndie England wouldn't go home alone.

I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman, but I've somehow managed to wake up next to a couple.

31 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:54:36am

What makes torure evil? It is the use of violence against the person using pain and humiliation to extract information. The dehumanizing use of force is what is evil. It is not the getting of information that is the evil, it is the method by which it is taken.

What is not evil is to strap a guy on a gurney and give him sodium pentathol- it is agains the will of the person but the extracted information might save a lot of lives and the life of the interrogated person is minimally affacted.

The US should just declare it reserves the right to use Pentathol and state that if those we oppose used it, we would make no complaint. Not that our enemies would use anything other than pliers and toenails.

32 foreign devil  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:55:41am

Since most government facilities are smoke free these days, where did the cigarettes comes from? And surely the guards in Gitmo don't give the prisoners their own smokes and matches, unsupervised. So who had the cigarette? Sounds pretty fishy to me.

The thing about Sullivan is he is now a Democrat in sheep's clothing. He is still considered a Republican by producers calling for guests on shows so we get things like last Sunday's 'Reliable Sources' where Sullivan and Anna Marie Cox (Wonkette) are the two guests to discuss Blogs and the Inauguration. Well they're both left-wing although Sullivan has never officially renounced his Republicanism. He acts, talks and walks the Democratic line so as far as I'm concerned he a left-wing Democrat. So when Howard Kurtz has Sullivan and Wonkette on together, who's there to speak for the right side of the debate?

Someone should have been on the show who would talk about the demonstrators and what happened to Protest Warrior's Gil Korbin and other things but none of that came up. Instead it was a mutual masturbation session with Anna Marie talking so fast you couldn't understand her and Sulllivan nodding his head like a bobble doll.

He's a charlatan and I don't read anything he has to say because he's been bought and paid for--not so much by the Democrats, though there's that, but by his own vanity and in having a big fuss made over his conversion to the left-wing, he gets invitations to go on shows and say what the Democrats want to hear. He's too eager to be noticed and that makes him unreliable.

33 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:55:52am

This "story" has to be false.
With cigarettes being such a sought-after commodity over there, the soldiers wouldn't waste them by sticking them into a terrorists ear.

34 Fast Eddie  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:56:55am

I think the same factor is at work with Sullivan as was the case with CBS Memogate, and a lot of other left-wing "reporting." This factor is simply that someone's wish for something to be true is so overpowering that they will go to any length to believe it, and to ignore any evidence pointing in some different direction.

In other words, "bias." Bias so strong that it controls these people's every thought and action, and the existance of which they continue to be blissfully unaware. In fact, I don't think that a person can possibly be this biased unless at the same time they are completely unaware of the bias.

35 Lewis  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:59:26am

#21 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

But it would take a really desperate man to pay Lyndie England for torture. She ran through the ugly forest and hit every tree.

Eh. I'd hit it.

/low standards

36 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:01:15am

Is it still beyond the pale to suggest that Sully is in the throes of AIDS-related dementia? I mean, the evidence does keep piling up. Acknowledging that a person's apparent behavior may be the result of disease, when the person is known to have that disease, and when the disease (or its treatment) is known to produce a specific response, is not necessarily a smear.

After all, NPR still let's Diane Riehm croak her way through her radio show every day even though it's obvious her voice has been ravaged by illness. As Sully rants his way further and further beyond the horizon of reason, why is it considered impolitic to say that maybe his condition has something to do with it?

37 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:01:22am

Lewis
Have you NO shame?!

38 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:02:52am

Condi has been confirmed!
Let the games begin!

39 Lewis  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:03:58am

#37 RebTex

Not enough, apparently. As BIG said: with enough alcohol, anything is possible.

40 piglet  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:05:10am

now this guy really hates bush,

nice animation for a moron.

[Link: www.kontraband.com...]

41 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:05:58am

Lewis
Well, it just goes to prove the old addage....
For every ugly ducklin' .........

42 Lewis  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:07:56am

#34 Fast Eddie

In other words, "bias." Bias so strong that it controls these people's every thought and action, and the existance of which they continue to be blissfully unaware. In fact, I don't think that a person can possibly be this biased unless at the same time they are completely unaware of the bias.

"Bias." Damn that sounds familiar. Your last sentence there sounds like it was maybe the main thrust of a book that came out a while ago. Now, what was it called again?

43 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:09:02am

OT
They're now saying there may have been a car deliberately placed across the track at the train de-railment.
More to come.

44 Jax  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:09:55am

OT, Self-Hating Moonbat in Counterpunch:

Counterpunch has a predictably loony article about the Bush inauguration. The surprising part is that the article also contains some rather filthy anti-Semitism. OK, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is that the article was written by an Israeli Jew, Uri Avnery.

Avnery starts with off with a standard Israel-controls-Bush spiel that could have come straight from al-Jizz:

Some people say, only half in jest, that the USA is an Israeli colony. And indeed, in many respects it looks like that. President Bush dances to Ariel Sharon's tune. Both Houses of Congress are totally subservient to the Israeli right-wing ­ much more so than the Knesset.

It gets worse. He goes on to compare evil Americans with evil Israelis:

American Christian Zionism preceded the founding of the Jewish Zionist organization. The American myth is almost identical with the Zionist Israeli myth, both in content and symbolism. (The settlers fleeing from persecution in their homelands, an empty country, pioneers conquering the wilderness, the savage natives, etc.)

Call me crazy, but it looks to me like Avnery just came within a hair of calling the Holocaust a myth.

Oh, and this appears to be the same Uri Avnery who showed his solidarity with Yasser Arafat.

45 Model4  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:11:20am
Sullivan treats every uncorroborated and uninvestigated allegation made by prisoners about their treatment as gospel.

Or "Sully goes Mainstream."

Did I miss the Zarqawi tape where he comes out in favor of gay marriage? Last I'd heard that was "frowned upon" in the Ummah.

46 KingKenrod  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:16:54am

All of this public talk about the do's and dont's of torture is of course a great help to our enemy, who know there is no danger when captured.

I feel all interrogation methods should be classified. The only public statements should be "We are honoring our treaties" or somesuch. If the bleeding hearts are worried about torture, they can always send in military auditors (there are plenty of career desk jockeys in the military who would love to bust these rogue elements), and keep the results classified.

47 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:17:29am

Watching Fox News
W>>T>>F>> happened to Arlin Spector?!
Ya'll have got to see this!

48 Thom  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:18:55am

#47 RebTex

I think he has a monster zit. He's been wearing that band-aid for a few weeks now, hasn't he?

49 David Simon  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:19:51am
Sullivan calls the “distinction between ‘prisoners of war’ and ‘unlawful combatants’ ” “so vague” as to make abuse inevitable. In fact, Article 4 of Geneva Convention III could not be clearer or more straightforward: under Article 4, terrorists could not possibly be covered.

Um Andy, are you seriously going to argue that fighting from a mosque, raising a white flag and then opening fire and faking death while cradling an explosive device entitles one to prisoner of war status?

50 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:20:45am

Thom
What?
Was the elephant man un-available for comment?

51 foreign devil  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:20:51am

Andrew Sullivan is increasingly irrelevant as his eagerness to be on TV or in print makes him say whatever will get him there. When I see him as a guest now on talk shows I cringe because he never has much to add to the debate and ends by talking about his 'boyfriend' all the time. His head is stuck in the 'gay world' and being noticed and it makes him flaky and unreliable as I said earlier.

52 nimslight  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:21:04am

he needs to pop it and get it over with.

53 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:21:31am

#46 KK -- You are absolutely right, and your approach would completely satisfy the need to reconcile tactical prerogatives with fundamentally decency.

Unfortunately, it would not satisfy the needs of the media and the left (but I repeat myself) for self-righteous moral posturing and America-bashing.

These people believe that Condi lied, they think our soldiers are butchers and sadists, but they think imprisoned terrorists are paragons of virtue and honesty.

54 William  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:22:12am

Questionn for Sullivan The Whiner: What does Nicholas Berg think about all this talk of "torture"?

Thanks.
 

55 Thom  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:23:18am

Oh gross. I'm trying to eat my lunch here and now a discussion on zits has erupted.

Er, so to speak ...

56 Amos (Zionist Minion)  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:23:20am

Does Sullivan treat uncorroborated reports of other groups (Jews, for example, or the IDF, in particular) with such credulty as well? If not, he clearly favors terrorists. The question is why.

57 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:23:56am

Torture is what I would do to them, not all this crap.

58 APH  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:25:20am

look at this picture: [Link: apnews.myway.com...] no bias there

59 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:26:02am

#38 RebTex

It's Breaking News on FOX, waiting to see the vote count...

60 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:27:11am

Ward
It was announced as 85 for
& like 13 against

61 EIDE_Interface  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:27:15am

#49 David Simon:

What about Germans fighting from churches in WW2? Did they count as POWs?

62 cleve  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:30:09am

#38

Condi has been confirmed!

Women, minorities hardest hit!

/NYT

63 Thom  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:30:46am

#58 APH

That's shocking. Even for the AP.

#61 EIDE_Interface

Of course. What we didn't have back then was a bunch of pantywaists pissing and moaning about the evil Americans bombing Christian holy sites.

64 1 US Sheeple  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:31:25am

Does anyone remember the Berkley demonstrators parading in the nude? I guess if they had formed a pyramid then this would be torture?

It annoys me that the Bush admin would cave in to the LLL. Why did they not compare a naked pyramid with the beheadings, starving captives, plus the terrorists using REAL torture.

My question is: why do we have prisioners? They all aspire to go to heaven and make it with the 72 virgins don't they? Give them what they want!

The damage to intelligence gathering is the real crime, not torture. In all probability there are terrorists prisioners who know about future attacks, that are not divulging this information because we are unable to extract this from them due to current interrogation guidelines.

When is the US going to realize that these terrorists mean business and they have one goal: to KILL Americans.

65 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:31:49am

#17 BIG

Do you realize how much money some guys in Hollywood would pay to be led around by a chick in fatigues while wearing a collar?

Hollywood? I dunno 'bout that. I bet any unattached lizardette could show up at a local bar with a dog collar and have fellers fightin' to put their heads in....(better not do it on a Friday or Saturday night. Might cause fatalities.) (Disclaimer--I have not had occasion to verify this myself due to my happily married status.)

66 big L  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:31:51am

where did the third train come from? The freight one? Did it come from the north, or were the 2 Metro trains over-taking each other and blew a signal...and rean into the back of the freighter...I wish there were cams and blck boxes onthese trains. Alot of accidents happen near the stations and airports, too. There needs to be some video set up around these areas.

67 beblebrox  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:31:56am

#43 RebTex

I was a bit confused by that comment. Did they mean an automobile placed on the tracks or a rail car left abandoned on an active track?

68 Old Buick Tanker  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:32:43am

RebTex, you anywhere near Abilene? We need to have a Texas LGF chapter chili picnic.

69 scott in east bay  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:33:31am

Condi 85-13. Who are the 13? (all right, who are the 10 besides Boxer, Kerry, and Kennedy) Who are the two missing Senators? Anybody know?

70 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:34:06am

BebleBrox
Their suspicion at this point is that a S.U.V. was purposfully placed in the path of the on-coming train!

71 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:35:07am

Old Buick Tanker
I'm in the rolling hills of Deep East Texas!
Near the dam at Toledo Bend Reservoir.

72 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:35:08am

Nine dead so far. Feh.

73 beblebrox  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:36:39am

#70 RebTex

Hmmmm.... I'm a suspicious cuss. One has to wonder about terrorism. After all Madrid has already demonstrated that they are interested in railroads.

74 BIG  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:37:39am

#65 SwampWoman

If you would like to test your theory, my number is 813-555-....

75 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:38:39am

BebleBrox
I'm holding back on that right now.
It would be a dark day if that proved out!
The officers on the scene are talking about maybe some proof of this being an intentional situation.
Dunno!
Waiting to see.

76 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:40:01am

Thirteen Donks voted against Condi

John "Sore Loser" Kerry, D-M'ass
Robert "Grand Kleagle" Byrd, D-West Virginia
Barbara "Crybaby" Boxer, D-Gullyfohnyuh
Mark "Chicken Little" Dayton - D-Minnesoduh
"Jumpin'" Jim Jeffords, D - Vermontistan
Ted "Waterboard" Kennedy, D is for Drowning, M'ass
Tom Harkin, D-Iowa
"Dirty" Harry Reid, D-Nevada
Dick "My First Name Says It All" Durbin, D-Ill
Frank "Fill-In" Lautenberg, D-New Joisey
Carl "Relic of 70's liberalism"Levin, D-Michigan
Evan "Don't Ever Mistake Me for a Moderate" Bayh, D-Indiana

77 MARS Trucker  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:40:28am

Fox news says that the cause is under suspicion. Local TV still states it was attempted suicide. I know the area quite well, huge ME population in the Glendale area.

78 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:40:59am

I'll bet this wasn't Islamic terro in L.A.


Probably a garden variety American nut.


Muslims would have gone for explosives.

79 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:42:04am

#60 RebTex

Yeah, I just saw that. 85-13. Wonder who the two nonvoting were?

80 beblebrox  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:42:09am

#75 RebTex

I know. I just figured I'll bring up what every one else was thinking. After all, there are more ways than a bomb to stop a train, as this possibly demonstrates, terrorism or just plain old vandalism.

81 quark2  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:42:46am

@10 Dave the.........

Go and look at this blog, and then follow his link to the email that was recieved by another blogger, Dirty Harry over Stranded on Blue Islands.

As I mentioned earlier, Dirty Harry at Stranded on Blue Islands has posted on his site an email from a Racine poll worker that is, quite frankly, a bit stunning. I've chatted a bit with Harry, and I think this story is very credible. I am posting some pictures as a favor to Dirty Harry, because he is unable to post them to his site. I am not going to reproduce the email here because it is Dirty Harry's source and his story, so make sure you check out his post about the poll worker email, and remember these pictures are part of that person's story.

Badger Blog Alliance

Scroll down to the pictures of the unsecured ballots, you'll find the link to the email there.

82 cleve  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:43:23am

#76

Thanks. I think Akaka voted nay also.

83 MARS Trucker  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:43:24am

Diesel isn't explosive enough? jet fuel is very close to diesel, look at what happened at the WTC with jet fuel.

84 FabioC.  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:44:20am

#70 RebTex

Last November something similar happened in England: a guy parked his car on a railway crossing; an oncoming hi-speed train hit it and derailed. Seven deaths and more injured was the final toll.

I wrote about it here, for who wants to know more details.

85 GoatGuy  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:44:40am

Andrew Sullivan, progressive Republican ... R. I. P.

For the longest time, I used to read Sullivan -- because he had a lot of interesting things to say about issues other than Gay marriage. He had a way of bringing up points that were hard to hear, yet needed to be heard.

I suppose his current mode is reflective of the same AndyS that I came to like, so long ago. He's still bringing up things that are hard to hear, but the question is, "do they need to be heard"?

His sources are suspect, his opinions have veered toward the Loony Liberal Left (rather unabashedly), his commentary is now full of baseless innuendo, incredible conclusions, the usual fantasies of a world-different-than-it-is by virtue of being described so.

Berman had it right: ultimately in times of war, in times of conflict and disunity, the dialectic splits and becomes truely schizophrenic: there are those that covet the facts, without the hubris, and there are those that fuel the hubris, and ignore the facts.

Abu Grhaib, as everyone above has noted, was a place of infamy and torture, but not the pyramids of playful inmates, not the faux-costume show of wires and black smocks. I know damned well what torture is when I see it [paraphrasing the Supreme Court's "We don't know how to define pornography, but we're quite certain when we see it"]. Burning people alive, torching them on a stake, breaking them on the rack, shocking them to the unconscious, and so many more "creative" ways of sadistic machinations -- are easy to define as torture. But is using the Islamic's vaunted "sense of honor" against them in shame really torture? My T-meter says "Nope!"

The goody-too-shoes amongst us [which are 98% non-republican, and even 40+% of the republicans] are reviled by the word torture, since it sounds so completely anti-American, so contrary to our fundamental principles and tenents. Lest we forget, we are not allowed in the surgical room, due to our naive perception of "how" an open-heart surgery should go. Reality is disgustingly brutal -- but necessary. The patient lives. We don't see the hydraulic pries opening the chest, hear the crunch of broken ribs. But the patient is "out", so its OK you say?

I say ... when you're trying to get crucial facts out of the combatants that fail to heed the definitions of a bonafide militia, then a bit of creative coercion seems apropros.

It is just real hard to figure out where the 'too far' number is on the T-meter though.

L. Ron? R U Listening? [LOL]

GoatGuy

86 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:45:29am

#76 Abu Messerschmitt

Kennedy, D is for Drowning, M'ass

LOL !

87 Laurence Simon  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:46:22am

He had a jackass icon up when he was courting Democrats for cash and an elephant icon up for when he was courting Republicans for cash.

So, where's the moonbat icon, Andrew?

88 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:48:45am

Ed Abu; Fabio
This may sound odd, but ...
If the suspicions play out,
I hope it was a "garden variety nut" .
Otherwise, it could get ugly quick!

89 rorschach  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:50:26am

And to think, I used to have some respect for this guy. His current relevance to anything must now be gauged by the standards of moonbattery.

90 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:51:53am

I too have very little sympathy for the abuse of terrorists. And in Afganistan, that IS who we had locked up. The problem in Iraq is that we made major sweeps, and most of the people incarcerated in Iraq are not associated with any terrorist/insurgent group. Do we really want to condone random abuse/torture on potentially innocent people?

And Sullivan has said the biggest problem he has with the torture issue is not so much what happened, but the impression it gives and the ammo it gives to the enemy to further demonize us.

91 David Simon  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:52:18am

#61 EIDE_Interface -

What about Germans fighting from churches in WW2? Did they count as POWs?

Are you trying to argue that fighting from a place of worship is in accordance with the laws and customs of war?

92 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:52:20am

#80 BebleBrox
I was at the welding supply store the other day.
They showed me a new "portable welder".
It's basically a MIG welder that operates off a 12 volt battery!
This could prove useful for maybe welding a bar across a set of tracks.
or....
Welding the exit doors shut on a building.....
Gotta keep an eye on EVERYBODY!

93 Jakester  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:52:53am

I guess anyone who questions anything about the Bush administration and the War on Terror is a traitor, according to Charles and the usual suspects here. Of course, any methods we employ have to be right because our enemies are so evil and our police and military are beyond question honest, effective and humane and anyone who disagrees must be coerced into agreeing!

94 Jakester  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:54:00am

Lyana's Quote:

Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I can't say I'm real concerned with how we treat people who do that kind of thing...


The man who murdered his daughter has nothing to do with the suspects or the war on terror!

95 foreign devil  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:54:42am

#31 Ayotollah Khomeini:

Sodium amytol and/or pentathol are overrated for extracting information. If you've ever done any drugs at all that's what it feels like--like two or three dry martoonis on an empty stomach. You're a bit bleary with the buzz but I wouldn't give my telephone number away under that stuff. I know, I had occasion to try it and it didn't work as it was supposed to. I was seeing a psychiatrist in the 70's who wanted me to go over some areas of my childhood and gave me a sodium amytol 'interview' as they call it. Nothing happened and he was really angry--with me. Because I was a bit of a partier in my youth I must have been used to the disorienting effect of the drug and it didn't make me tell all as it was intended. Shortly after that I ceased treatment.

96 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:55:30am

#90 Richard
"Do we really want to condone random abuse/torture on potentially innocent people? "
Innocence is merely a state of mind to some.
If they can justify an action, they beleive themselves as innocent.

97 beblebrox  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:55:32am

92 RebTex

A friend of mine was recomending one of those for use around the house the other day. I never thought of that sort of devious use, though.

98 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:57:02am

#94 Jakester

Lyana's Quote:

Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I can't say I'm real concerned with how we treat people who do that kind of thing...

The man who murdered his daughter has nothing to do with the suspects or the war on terror!

Go back and read the story again. Has a lot to do with suspects and war on terror.

99 BIG  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:57:30am

#93 Jakester

Nobody is saying that the naked pyramids are right. We just feel that plastic shredders for people are worse than a dyke pointing at someones tiny genitals.

But maybe you feel differently?

100 Jakester  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:57:43am

Nice to see how low your standards are RebTex, of course, anyone we arrest must be guilty so why not cut out the torture and just kill them on the spot, that will teach the heathens democracy and human rights!

101 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:58:58am

#95 -- Hm, brings a thought. Could one use party drugs on detainees --- ecstasy, coke, Jagermeister -- to loosen them up?

Could you get a terrorist addicted to heroin, then let him go through withdrawal, and only give him a fix if he sang? I know Arianna and the "It's not worth winning this war if it means we can't always be nice people" crowd would object. But dammit, I want to win, and I don't want any of our people to die because of the delicate sensibilities of liberal girly-men.

102 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:59:24am

Jakester
Go ahead & sent your concerns to your local Constabulary.
Sometimes, fire is fought with fire.

103 speedreadr  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:59:49am

#85 GoatGuy

I agree. I used to read Sullivan's blog regularly but he kept getting stranger. Nowadays he is often incoherent. Oh well.

104 Jakester  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:59:55am

There was more than just naked pyramids, there was physical harm inflicted and people did die. Also, our civilization is judged on how well we treat our worst enemies as well as the weakest amongst us, not by comparison to the tactics of tyrants!

105 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:00:36am

#97 beblebrox

friend of mine was recomending one of those for use around the house the other day. I never thought of that sort of devious use, though.

Yeah, reckon you ain't devious enough. It never (previously) occurred to me to be skeered of somebody with a box cutter, either. Thanks to the FAA, now I can't pull out MY knife and say "you call that a knife? Now, this......" So, guess I'll be drivin' for awhile.

106 Jakester  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:01:00am

Reb, and I bet you and your pals are more than willing to break the eggs for the omelets!

107 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:02:47am

Also, torture is a notoriously ineffective means of getting good information. People will say anything they think you want to hear when in pain if they think the pain will stop.

And to those that point out that things were worse under Saddam, well no shit! That's not really the point. When trying to promote freedom and win hearts and minds, it doesn't help to have photos going around that show your people as brutal.

OJ Simpson wasn't as bad a murderer as Ted Bundy- doesn't make OJ a good guy.

108 FabioC.  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:03:40am

#101 Abu Messerschmitt

I think it's not allowed under the current treaties, but it's an idea with some appeal in it.

109 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:03:44am

David Simon


I don't know, but I do know that after Germany surrendered, Nazi "insurgents" and "activists" bombed government offices and targetted Germans working with occupation forces for assasination.


When US forces captured these "freedom fighters", they were subjected to summary military tribunals, and shot.

110 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:03:51am

Jakester
If you were ,say, hanging out with some friends & something happened amongst this group of friends,would you expect to walk off & not answer questions?
VERY few are actually "in the wrong place at the wrong time!"
Your liberal views are admirable,however,
Those that ride a high horse usually have a long fall.

111 Jakester  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:04:12am

Swamper,
The Kuwaiti man was not a terrorist, he was simply a common Arab Muslim fanatic. No mentioned was made of any activities inside Iraq!

112 D.Gray  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:05:13am

#34 I think the same factor is at work with Sullivan as was the case with CBS Memogate, and a lot of other left-wing "reporting." This factor is simply that someone's wish for something to be true is so overpowering that they will go to any length to believe it, and to ignore any evidence pointing in some different direction.

This is an excellent observation. It was very much on display back after Zell Miller's speech at the RNC. Sullivan went nuts, calling Zell a "homophobe" and a "Dixiecrat." I wrote him, telling him his knowledge of 20the century Southern history is obviously very shallow, that it didn't seem to me like he understood what a "Dixiecrat" was, and asking him to please provide a source for these charges. (Seeing that Zell was only a teenager when the Dixiecrats were current news, I didn't see that as possible ...) A lot of other people must have also asked him because after a couple of days he provided a one line throwaway mention about Begala and Carville being the source of the assertion. Begala and Carville - 'nuff said. What's happened to Andrew is actually quite sad. He's a powerful writer when he wants to be ... but lately, he only wants to be a partisan hack.

113 Thom  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:05:21am

#104 Jakester

Also, our civilization is judged on how well we treat our worst enemies

Judged by whom, and for what purpose?

114 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:06:11am

#106 Jakester
I actually prefer huevos ranchero.
I'm not sure how you landed on me to purge your conscience,but it's readily apparent that we have little in common.
Good Day!

115 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:06:39am

17 BIG - LOL!

The ongoing argument about torture makes me throw up my hands and scream. Yes, we are Americans, and we shouldn't behave that way, even in Alberto Gonzales' America.
But, first, we are at war. and even Americans behave badly in wartime.

Second, get some perspective! IIRC when Nick Berg was captured (but before his on camera decapitation) the jihadis said it was retaliation for the American abuse at Abu Ghraib. Great, methinks- they'll take off his clothes and put panties on his head.

116 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:06:43am

Dang, Jakester has her panties in a wad today, don't she?

117 speedreadr  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:08:48am

SwampWoman

Your panties would be in a wad too if you had your head stuck that far up your ass

118 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:09:05am

Swamp Woman
Jakster is a chick?!
.
.
.
In that case,
Good Day, Ma'am!

119 BIG  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:09:54am

#94 Jakester

The man who murdered his daughter has nothing to do with the suspects or the war on terror!

You are wrong. It has everything to do with the War on Terror. Some are just too ignorant to make the logical connection.

120 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:10:17am

And,I'm tipping my hat whist giving you a hearty grin!

121 RebTex  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:14:32am

Jakester
Also, I'm not the one with low standards.
That's Lewis! see comments #35 & #39

122 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:16:25am

SULLIVAN READS LGF AND DOESN'T LIKE VIKING THE KITTEN!


thanks about as sickening a thread as i have read in a long while.
andrew (with the AIDS dementia)
123 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:17:46am

#111 Jakester

Swamper,
The Kuwaiti man was not a terrorist, he was simply a common Arab Muslim fanatic. No mentioned was made of any activities inside Iraq!

I thought I referred you to the story wherein it was revealed that he spent 18 months in a Saudi Arabian facility for his "extremist" activities. I think we can safely assume that the extremist activities in question were not spreading Christian literature (for he would be dead) or agitating for women's right to vote.

When the Saudis think your Muslim religious views are extreme and throw you into prison, you just might be a terrorist (with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy).

124 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:25:00am

#118 Reb Tex

Swamp Woman
Jakster is a chick?!

Well, I just figgered. That sense of moral outrage is usually limited to girls that just found out that their rival (aka bitch slut from hell) made the cheerleading squad and they did not. That, and the excessive use of exclamation marks which I thought was a feminine trait but which may be merely the secret recognition signal among the LLL.

125 Opinionated Vogon  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:25:02am

#40 piglet

The narrator's voice from that movie reminds me of Vizzini from Princess Bride:

"You only think I guessed wrong - that's what's so funny. I switched glasses when your back was turned. Ha-ha, you fool. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian, when *death* is on the line.". Hahahahahah. "

And viewed in that light I found it very amusing :¬)

(I bet the entire time he was editing he would repeat INCONTHIEVABLE!)

126 1 US Sheeple  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:25:48am

Jakester

There is only one rule in war: WIN!

If we don't take out the murdering terrorists, we will not be in a position to debate any of the socialists topics that you libs are so fond of.

I have heard for years that another attack will be made on the US! Evidently you do not believe this.

My question is: WHY NOT!

What information do you possess that the intelligence community does not have? Please share this info with us.

127 Athos  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:26:40am
Is gay marriage really so important that you're willing to give the Islamists a time out while we address this as the most important issue of the day?

To Sully, it's all about him and his ego. That's why he's become irrelevant. His ego is so entwined with his sexual orientation / politics of his orientation that he can no longer see the big picture or maintain any intellectual honesty.

128 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:27:48am

#122 Ed

SULLIVAN READS LGF AND DOESN'T LIKE VIKING THE KITTEN!


Awwwwwwwwwww. I'm sure V the K is just really, really crushed. Bear up, V the K, you may sob quietly on my shoulder, and I will pat your back and glare in Sullivan's direction.

129 Blue Chip  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:32:10am

#122

How come he doesn't like V the K?

130 V the K  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:33:06am

So, has Arianna Sullivan pointed out the heroin post yet? (Bet he ignores the "college dorm" post.)

I wonder if any of his droogs will wander over to Caption This!. If so, I better brace for trolls. I sort of insinuated that Hillary was a daughter of Sappho this morning. That's not going to go over well.

131 Mik  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:33:20am

#4 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades wrote:


"If only Bush had supported gay marriage, Sullivan would still love him, and would probably volunteer to go down to Guantanamo to organize the naked pyramids. "

Bush or Kerry Sullivan would LOVE to be IN the naked pyramids.

For Sullivan pictures from Abu Ghraib are as tempting as open Whiskey bottle for an alcoholic. Very painful, he hates it so.

132 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:38:23am

It's funny to gay-bash and make fun of AIDS!

asshole off

133 dossier  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:39:27am

Just an educated guess, but I think Jakester is A. Sullivan himself. Sure sounds like him. He's a nasty, self-justifying middle class British egotist whenever anybody disagrees with him.

134 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:40:09am

I wrote back Sullivan and basically asked why he puts gay marriage ahead of all else.


do too. like winning a war. but when some of us criticize the methods, we are also despised as quisling enemies of the state.
yours ever,
nancy

He is developing the LLL habit (was ee cummings that influential, or was it kd lang?) of not capitalizing.

135 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:43:18am

Richard


I doubt abu Messerschmitt does much gay bashing.

136 David Simon  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:44:32am

#109 Ed of the many psuedonyms - If only we treated Iraqi "insurgents" like the Wolverines.

Any idea what "eide" was getting at? I searched some of his posts and he seems quite reasonable.

137 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:49:11am

No, I'm not sure.

I think some US troops did indeed go too far at abu Ghraib, but the more the LLL MSM tries to use it as a weapon against Bush while ignoring the real threats, the less concerned with it I become.

138 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:51:47am
He is developing the LLL habit ... of not capitalizing.

And of crying "victim" when someone criticizes him.

In fairness, I only raised the possibility that AIDS-related dementia was settling in, and I even admitted that bringing it up was rude. I also note, Arianna Sullivan is an admitted recreational drug user, and prolonged drug use can also adversely affect cognitive faculties. It's not an attack to suggest that his descent into madness may have resulted from factors beyond his control. Quite the opposite.

139 crabtree  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 8:54:08am

Honestly, does anyone read Sullivan anymore? He used to be an interesting and insightful political commentator who happened to be gay. But sometime last year he went completely off the rails and is now a gay commentator who can think of nothing else, with positions on issues that are all over the place depending on how they impact the gay agenda. Federalism good if it allows gay marriage. Federalism bad if it allows Texas sodomy law to stand. And the idea that he is a conservative is a joke! (He is also frequently, without realizing it, tone-deaf on issues involving American culture and the American mind-set.)

Every couple of weeks I stop in to see if anything has changed and then run screaming from the site when I see he's still fixated on torture, gay marriage and the sky falling in Iraq.

140 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:02:53am

V the K,

What exactly were the "college dorm" and "heroin" threads?

141 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:03:35am

Hey Ed, if you're still emailing Arianna, you can tell him I'd be more than happy to debate him on whether sleep deprivation and loud music constitute torture, and also whether Bush's (and mine) opposition to gay marriage make us the embodiment of all that is evil.

Back in his more lucid days, Randy Andy sent me an email acknowledging that I had valid points in opposing gay marriage.

142 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:07:48am

D2 --- What exactly were the "college dorm" and "heroin" threads?

College Dorm Comment

According to Arianna Sullivan and his fellow moonbats at the NYT, things like sleep deprivation, playing loud music, and providing detained terrorists with Coca-Cola at bedtime constitute "torture." By their standards, our college dorms are dungeons of unspeakable horror.

Heroin

Could you get a terrorist addicted to heroin, then let him go through withdrawal, and only give him a fix if he sang?

Note, the heroin context was "would this be an effective technique for getting information," not "would doing this be morally acceptable?"

143 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:09:12am

It's pretty simple. If you're categorically against torture, then you're against our defeating terrorism, which means you're against our existing.

144 Geepers  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:09:23am

Interesting, Andrew can use base accusations and unsubstantiated claims by anonymous sources as a cudgel to condemn his enemies, yet cries foul over obviously cynical propositions to explain that reasoning.

Smells like hypocrisy to me.

145 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:15:45am

I don't think I'll email Sullivan again unless he writes first.

Besides, I don't see your email address anywhere on the Kurlander page.

146 Iron Fist  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:15:57am

Here's an idea:

Next time, instead of putting panties on their heads, just scream "Allahu Akabar" and cut off their heads off with a Homelite chainsaw.

Given the attention he's paid to them, beheadings don't seem to particularly bother him. Or is it because it is Americans being beheaded?

After 9-11 he warned about a media fifth column in the War. Who knew he was talking about himself?

147 Renna  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:18:08am

#143 Laz

Good point. The key word being catagorically.

So many people want to make catagorical statements for/against this, that, or the other, and if you state that there might arise certain extreme situations, they just turn and accuse you of being catagorically against/for whatever. (Hope I didn't lose coherence making that statement too general)

For example, I would be among the last people on this earth to be pro-cannibalism, but in extreme circumstances like the South American soccer team stranded in the Andes, I do not fault them at all for eating their dead to stay alive. But by the (il)logic of some debaters, my approval of their doing what it took to stay alive means I'm pro-cannibalism.

148 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:19:16am

#143 Lazarus

That's ridiculous. People can disagree on methods while agreeing with the goal. And, as I stated earlier, almost all experts agree that torture is an unreliable technique to obtain information.

149 Cy_Kologis  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:20:08am

Abu Messerschmitt:

It's interesting to note your comparison between Arianna Huffington and Andrew (Ariandrew Sullington?). I've been making that observation for a while, too. I noticed the transformation in both when their prose started to drip with smarmy earnester-than-thou self-promotion. Ariandrew's latest vehicle in his "look-at-me" tour is the exploitation of the unfortunate activities of rogue elements in the Army. It's one thing to oppose organized torture on the part of the military, but quite another to see a grand conspiracy at every claim of abuse no matter how dubious just to have your name bandied about favorably at Soirees on the Upper East Side.

--Cy

150 Doss  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:22:41am

#99 BIG

Nobody is saying that the naked pyramids are right. We just feel that plastic shredders for people are worse than a dyke pointing at someones tiny genitals.


There was a point to the naked pyramid other than trying to embarrass some bad guys. I heard the context for the naked pyramid on Rush a couple weeks ago, and I'm suprised that it hasn't spread farther than it has.
The reason the naked pyramid of hooded prisoners was necessary because there had just been a prison riot at Abu Gharaib. A naked pyramid is an effective and necessary tactic after a prison riot because:
1. Naked people can't (nearly as easily) hide weapons.
2. Put in a pyramid, if a bottom prisoner tries to move, they all fall down, alerting the outnumbered guards.
3. The hoods were worn so that the prisoners didn't know where the guards were.
4. It does demoralize the prisoners, a desirable condition to get them out of riot-mode.

The guards taking pictures of themselves grinning behind the pyramid was incredibly stupid, but don't forget that they're guarding terrorists who have just been involved in a prison riot. Prison riot, meaning that they were trying to kill American soldiers not too much time before. So, I don't condone the dumb trophy pics, but it doesn't bother me too much considering the guards had just suppressed a prison riot by psychotic terrorists. Not the best way to get a laugh, but Lord knows they no doubt needed one.

151 Merovign  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:28:15am

#104 Jakester

Perspective, kids. Some bad people did some bad things, and are being punished. You are so desperate to soil the whole effort that you not only will believe any claims, no matter how ridiculous, but are eager to apply blame anywhere but where it belongs if it can result in political gain.

As to the "threat of harm" with K-9 units, the black dog was a stroke of genius. You know the signifigance of that, yes?

And the whole "RAPEST" thing has significance to, it's not just bad spelling. I'm sure you know where google is.

Yeah, those guards were whack jobs. And are being disposed of. But why doesn't anyone point out that those poor, abused murderers, rapists, and thieves can thank Allah all day long that it wasn't Uday & Qusay that were running the place?

What kind of derangement morally equates embarrassment and a few incidents of genuine violence by malefactors who have been arrested by authories with THOUSANDS OF MURDERS, MUTILATIONS, AND A NATIONWIDE ORGANIZED CAMPAIGN OF POLITICALLY MOTIVATED RAPE BY THE FORMER AUTHORITY.

If you can't get that straight, shut up.

#132 Richard

Read all the comments so far, but it's always nice to have a random and pointless accusation thrown in.

Mr. Sullivan is just feeling guilty because he enjoyed those photos so much.

It ain't about gays and it ain't about AIDS. It's about Andy's bad attitude.

152 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:32:59am

#147 Renna

For example, I would be among the last people on this earth to be pro-cannibalism, but in extreme circumstances like the South American soccer team stranded in the Andes, I do not fault them at all for eating their dead to stay alive. But by the (il)logic of some debaters, my approval of their doing what it took to stay alive means I'm pro-cannibalism.

Yeah. While I don't think I could ever be hungry enough to eat the bodies of any loved ones, I sure wouldn't mind a nice slice of stranger. Which brings me to a dilemma if I am ever to fly across the Andes. Should I forgo diet and exercise in the months leading up to the trip so that in the event of a crash, I would already have my food supply handy, with the caveat that my plumped up self-contained food supply would be lookin' mighty tasty to my fellow passengers.

153 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:33:24am

No mention on [Link: www.andrewsullivan.com...] about LGF today. He does give the committee roll call of those who opposed Gonzales. Looks like every Dem on the committee.


Good thing the Republicans do have a Senate majority, or the Dems wouldn't pass any AG nominee short of Ramsey Clark.

154 SwampWoman  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:34:37am

#146 Iron Fist

Next time, instead of putting panties on their heads, just scream "Allahu Akabar" and cut off their heads off with a Homelite chainsaw.

No WAY! A Poulan Wild Thing is the way to go.

155 OilStooge  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:35:28am

These days, Andrew Sullivan is good for nothing except high blood pressure.

To various people on this thread: the vast majority of Americans and its government disapprove of what we saw at Abu Ghraib.

What we are objecting to at LGF is Sullivan's (and the rest of the msm's) baseless attempt to implicate the WH and the DOD.

156 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:35:47am

Merovign-

I have read the posts, and several of them implied that Sullivan just wants to be in the pile and he's delusional from AIDS. The post before mine, 131-

"Bush or Kerry Sullivan would LOVE to be IN the naked pyramids.

For Sullivan pictures from Abu Ghraib are as tempting as open Whiskey bottle for an alcoholic. Very painful, he hates it so."

Disagree with Sullivan if you like, implying that he wants to be debased because he's gay is asinine and homophobic.

157 Rant Wraith  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:39:17am

It's not just tortured logic. It is a determination by some, and really Sullivan is the least of them, to redefine toture to include humiliation, hooding, wrapping someone in the Israeli flag, yelling at prisoners. In some cases insulting someone's religion is conflated with torture. Denying prisoners religious items or special meals is not torture.

I submit that non-physical "mistreatment" may be rude but it is not torture. I've been yelled at and I've been hit. I know the difference. I prefer being yelled at.

A larger issue though is the insistence of the media of treating prisoner abuse as something representative of American culture while at the same time declaring that murders committed by Muslims in the name of Islam do not represent Islam. To me this is sheer incoherence. the sign of a weak mind and a refusal to recognize any kind of rational standards or even consistent definitions.

158 Renna  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:44:20am

#152 Swampwoman

I remember lots of people talking about that right after the movie Alive and they seemed to fall into two camps. One, like you, would eat the stranger but the other camp argued that they'd rather eat their loved one, being as they knew they where they'd been. Interesting discussions made easier by the fact that none of us even remotely expect to ever be in that situation.

159 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:45:37am

Richard

It may have more to do with the fact that Sullivan has made a 180 course change in about the two month period after Bush came out against gay marriage about the "War on Terror" and the need/methods of the Iraq war.


His sexuality seems to control his entire life. Hey, I'm a red blooded American guy, but my life doesn't revolve around trying to have sex with women. I don't feel compelled to mention my wife every third time I post anything, and while I oppose gay marriage, all else being the same between Bush and John Francois, I'd still have voted for Bush even if he supported gay marriage and Francois had favored the Constitutional amendment.

160 Doss  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:52:01am

#156 Richard
Have you read this story?

The HIV-positive gay writer and pundit Andrew Sullivan, the information contended, had an assumed screen name on America Online with a profile that advertised for “bareback” sex and which linked to two Web pages where he posted headless photos and his sexual tastes, one of which was on BarebackCity.com.


Beyond the sensationalism of the “bareback” sex revelation, what was most jarring to people who’d received this information was the sheer incongruity between the public persona that many rightly or wrongly perceive as Sullivan’s—conservative, moral, devoutly Catholic, marriage-minded, judgmental toward the sexual behavior of politicians and other public figures, and arrogant toward the ghettoized gay scene—and the person depicted on the sites, a gay stereotype more extreme than any of the Village People, someone very much in the gay sexual fast lane, all pumped up and describing his "power glutes," ravenously eager to hook up but letting prospective partners know that “no fats, no fems” need apply.


Read the whole thing.

161 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:52:09am

#149 Cy --- Thanks, it needed to be said.

#153 Ed ---

No mention on [Link: www.andrewsul......] about LGF today

Yeah, he probably doesn't want to give a scruffy band of nobodies the time of day. Also, some of his remaining readers might conclude that we make more sense than Andrianna Sullington and defect.

#157 Wraith ---

A larger issue though is the insistence of the media of treating prisoner abuse as something representative of American culture while at the same time declaring that murders committed by Muslims in the name of Islam do not represent Islam.

Whoa! Awesome comment.

On the subject of wraiths, the actor who plays John Sheppard on Stargate Atlantis may be a non-moonbat. There was a behind-the-scenes show where it was revealed he reads the New York Times between scenes. When asked why, he said, "Because, after a few minutes of reading the New York Times, I'm agitated and worked up and I can't wait to get that energy on the screen."

162 Geepers  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:53:09am
reported that an unknown, unnamed civilian had walked in to the office to charge that burning cigarettes had been placed in prisoners’ ears in Iraq.

Richard, do you feel that this is sufficient "evidence" to make accusations of torture?

163 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 9:59:20am

#148 Richard

That's ridiculous. People can disagree on methods while agreeing with the goal. And, as I stated earlier, almost all experts agree that torture is an unreliable technique to obtain information.

My argument is that torture is morally justifiable, not that it is always an effective means for getting information. Yes, people can disagree on the effectiveness of different torture methods (though who cares -- it's not relevant to the question), but my point is, people should not rule it out on moral grounds.

And I completely reject the idea that torture is entirely unreliable. It has become so in America, because we are waging "just war", allowing all sorts of conflicting approaches to dealing with a barbarous enemy into our strategy. We arrest guys whom we have no reason to believe know anything that will help us, and then torture them for information, which they don't have. Or we redefine torture down to patty-cake and then fault torture for not working and beat ourselves up for "sinking down to their level". Or we do capture bad guys, use flawed torture techniques, and then wonder why our torture didn't work.

Torture is effective, if done correctly. That means capturing people who are demonstrably hostile to you, then giving them the choice of extreme brutality if met with resistance, or lightened treatment and even release depending on how they cooperate. And you never, ever reward or punish a captor based on his information until you have checked it out. Your objective in torture is to establish techniques that unmistakably make it in the captor's interest to help you out. That we don't do that is not an indictment on the effectiveness of torture as such.

And Renna, you're right, there are plenty of instances in which torture is unjustified. In the case of Abu Ghraib, it wasn't because we were cruel, it was because our cruelty served no military purpose.

164 TalkinKamel  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:03:00am

Richard and Jakester

I'm going to have to echo Thom's comment in Post #113 here; "Judged by whom, and for what purpose?"

Are we going to be judged by the Moslem world, which sat back and allowed Saddam to butcher thousands of his countrymen, without uttering a single peep? France, Russia and the UN, which were all lining their pockets from the oil-for-fools scam? The Chicoms? That worker's paradise, Cuba? The Islamofacists of Indonesia, who snatch at all the relief money they can get---then blame Israel for the Tsunami? Russia (again), which is starting to move against the Jews (check out the thread from yesterday on that subject).

The rest of the world can go get its own house in order, before it starts pointing a finger at us!

Our soldiers have been tried, by our own military, and were stopped by our own military (something, trust me, that Castro's army, or the Red Chinese are never going to do to their boys, who REALLY torture Chinese Christians or Cuban dissidents.) That's all the judgment we need. Endless breast-beating over Abu Ghraib, and whining about what the world thinks of us will accomplish nothing but cause us to lose our nerve and pull out of Iraq, just as we did from Vietnam.

And, just remember---Mi Lai was terrible yes; but, after America was shamed into leaving Vietanm by the anti-war movement, more Vietnamese died in communist re-education camps than they did during the entire course of the war itself. Peace can be a real bitch sometimes!

#124 Swamp Woman

!What? Jakester is a girl!

(Actually, I guessed that.)

165 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:03:08am

Sorry, I may have used "captor" incorrectly in my last post. Is a captor the one captured or the one doing the capturing? Don't know...

166 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:03:26am

#160 Doss

I read the link, but fail to see your point. Sullivan is gay we all know that. Even if he likes kinky sex, to imply that just because he's gay he would want to be humiliated and sodomized with foreign objects is offensive.

#162 Geepers

Of course not. However, that statement is hardly the extend of what has happenned to prisoners under US care.

167 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:09:36am
Beyond the sensationalism of the “bareback” sex revelation, what was most jarring to people who’d received this information was the sheer incongruity between the public persona that many rightly or wrongly perceive as Sullivan’s—conservative, moral, devoutly Catholic, marriage-minded, judgmental toward the sexual behavior of politicians and other public figures, and arrogant toward the ghettoized gay scene—and the person depicted on the sites, a gay stereotype more extreme than any of the Village People, someone very much in the gay sexual fast lane, all pumped up and describing his "power glutes," ravenously eager to hook up but letting prospective partners know that “no fats, no fems” need apply.

There goes my lunch.

168 levi from queens  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:11:43am

Ed at 109 -- do you have a link or an amazon book for the proposition that nazi guerrillas were subject to summary execution after V-E day. I've looked for that proposition before and come up dry -- the sentence I remember is something like (and not an exact quote)

After 2 weeks[after the surrender], our troops did not need to carry arms and were just as safe as they would have been in their towns back in America.

Much appreciated.

169 speedreadr  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:11:52am

#165 Lazarus

Captors hold captives in captivity

170 Geepers  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:14:12am

Richard (#166),

However, that statement is hardly the extend of what has happenned to prisoners under US care.

Then why use it?

It only gave his critics the opening to dismiss all his claims.

In this day and age did he think that no one would notice?

171 crabtree  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:14:49am

#159
"His sexuality seems to control his entire life."

This is something that has long bothered me about many gays (and being in the SF area I know plenty!) Some time ago Andrew posted about how gays just want to be treated and perceived like anyone else. I pointed out that the best way to do this is to act like everyone else--show up at community meetings, volunteer alongside your neighbors, have people over for dinner, do all the stuff people do in their daily lives, and don't shove your sexuality in people's faces while you're doing it. But instead, in my experience, gays self-segregate and take their whole identity from their sexual orientation. They socialize only with each other, even when they have straight friends, and see everything through "gay glasses." Now I read about retirement homes being founded for gays so they can age in a "comfortable" environment.

Well, you can spend all your vacations in P-Town and pencil in the Gay Pride parade as the big event on your social calendar, complete with leather, nudity, flaming queens, Dykes on Bikes OR you can behave and be treated "just like anybody else." You can't have it both ways.

172 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:17:47am

#164- TalkinKamel

I am not saying that we should be hyper-sensative to the worlds opinion, I am saying that in some ways perception is reality. When we are touting the virtues of freedom, and trying to institute a democracy, it doesn't help to be caught behaving barbarically. Don't you think that the Abu Gharib pictures are an effective recruiting tool for people who already think we're evil?

173 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:20:44am

Richard-

Not just that Sully is gay, but that he frequently changes positions on issues (did you read to the bottom) but always acts as if he is consistent.

174 Doss  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:21:04am

#166 Richard

I read the link, but fail to see your point. Sullivan is gay we all know that. Even if he likes kinky sex, to imply that just because he's gay he would want to be humiliated and sodomized with foreign objects is offensive.


I was implying that he might, as you put it, "want to be humiliated and sodomized with foreign objects" because he in the past has sought out condom-less sex even though he has HIV or AIDS. That he might do one incredibly reckless, life-threatening action makes him a likely candidate for other reckless behavior.

175 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:26:49am

#174 Doss

So a promiscuous woman might want to be raped? I don't think your logic tracks. Someone into S&M might not want some stranger to whip them without consent.

176 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:27:01am

Levi


No, but I saw a documentary of The History Channel.

177 madawaskan  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:29:53am

The Democrats don't get the difference between uniformed enemies and terrorists. You'd think this was simple but BOXER continues to make this error even AFTER Dr. Rice clarified it for her.

Then I heard this on NPR(of all places) The Geneva Convention does not allow you to house a prisoner in a cell by himself...so let's just let these terrorists hang out together so they can talk amongst themselves...

Last I stole this from someone on Polipundit-

If Andrew had a baby without an epidural and was in labor for 16 hours he'd scream;

I'm being tortured.

Since the terrorists love women so much....I'm thinking anything short of this is child's play.
'

178 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:33:06am

Richard,

American forces who liberated Mauthasen sadistically tortured "innocent" Nazi camp guards for hours following their so called "liberation". They forced them to do knee bends and crawl on their bellies for hours at a time. According to Andrew Sullivan, that's torture! Torture! T-O-R-T-U-R-E!

179 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:36:34am
The Democrats don't get the difference between uniformed enemies and terrorists.

The scary part, is a lot of them do know, but in their zeal to smear Bush, they don't care how much harm they do to our respect abroad, or how many soldiers live they endanger. In fact, they rather enjoy these results, because with the help of their MSM con-conspirators, they turn it around and blame Bush.

180 Doss  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:42:36am

#175 Richard

So a promiscuous woman might want to be raped? I don't think your logic tracks. Someone into S&M might not want some stranger to whip them without consent.


Your logic doesn't track. I was saying that since he's into bareback sex, which is potentially life-threatening, it's not much of a stretch to think that he might like the reckless, but less serious, act of being hooded in a naked pyramid having stuff put in him.
Your example posits that someone having done something like being promiscuous (not life-threatening if condoms are used) would maybe want to be raped ( a sexual liking far more serious than screwing around) doesn't match what I said.
Since he's done a worse action, it's probable he'd do a less worse action. Your examples of the promiscuous woman or someone into S&M put the less serious action as proving someone would do a more serious action, the exact opposite of what I said.

181 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:47:03am

Is Andy still in Pee Town?


THE NEW 12Z/26 ECMWF POINTS TO ANOTHER POSSIBLE BIG SN FOR NEW ENG IF NRN STREAM ENERGY CAN INTERACT WITH ANY DEVELOPMENT OFF THE MID ATLANTIC COAST DAY 5 AND BEYOND. STAY TUNED!


(from HPC)

Still snowing in Pee Town, and one can see the enhanced snow associated with the arctic front entering northern Massachusetts.

+1C in PVC, -6C in BOS, -11C in Rochester, home of Genessee Cream Ale.

Speaking of western NY, Lake Effect snow starting up. This looks multiband, but may firm up into discrete bands of heavy snow later.

Rain in the Sonoran Desert of Arizona!

I'm not sure yet if rain is reaching the ground yet in the Chihuahuan Desert of West Texas.


I'm not sure why the Sonoran Desert is more famous than the Chihuahuan Desert, which covers not just western Texas but parts of New Mexico and the Mexican states of Coahuila and Chihuahua.

This is the lechuguilla plant, the floral marker of the Chihuahuan Desert.

Look at this sweeping vista from the Chihuahuan Desert as seen in Big Bend Ranch State Park, Texas

182 attyintampa  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 10:57:55am

It may just be me but I don't value the life of a hostile terrorist setting up an explosive device over a Coalition soldier or peace craving Iraqi. If causing serious bodily harm to a terrorist will produce information which may save lives, then anything goes. Those jackholes gave up their "rights" to be treated like human beings when they joined the jihad.

The "grey area" is where "suspected terrorists" are captured and tortured. If the captive is a known terrorist, is known to be working for a terrorist organization or was caught acting nefarious (setting up bombs, shooting at our troops, etc), imho, if we're not going to shoot him, we may as well use him.

183 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:01:10am

#169 speedreadr

Thanks for the help. I meant "captives" when I said "captors".

And #172 Richard

I am not saying that we should be hyper-sensative to the worlds opinion, I am saying that in some ways perception is reality. When we are touting the virtues of freedom, and trying to institute a democracy, it doesn't help to be caught behaving barbarically. Don't you think that the Abu Gharib pictures are an effective recruiting tool for people who already think we're evil?

Congratulations. In one sentence you have nailed the entire problem of the Left, Europe, and Islam. Perception is not reality. Reality is what it is, things are what they are. But what you make of them, how you perceive them is a function of how you use your mind, which means, how objective you are.

That the rest of the world sees us as oppressors of Iraqis, or Israel as oppressors of Palestinians, does not make it so. What makes it so is whether or not it's true, not how someone perceives it. If you truly went around living your life according to how others perceive you, you'd have a very short, very unhappy life. Think about it.

And you confuse the means of defending freedom (all out war) with the values of freedom itself (man has the right to exist for his own sake). The two are not the same. That we may be, in your words, acting barbarically, does not mean that barbarism is a hallmark of freedom that we uphold. It means that when we say we're for defending freedom, we mean business. (And I would say that judging how we wage war today, we tell the world unequivocally that we do not mean business.) How would you possibly say you value freedom by hamstringing yourself for the sake of your enemies? C'mon!

As for Abu Ghraib, who cares whether it's an effective recruiting tool for terrorists? If someone is so irrational and so hateful of America that that one incident turns them from an innocent bystander into a terrorist, then their life was not worth considering in the first place.

Richard, you are actually worried about what people who want to kill you think of you. Do you actually think that that is a moral postion? These are people who are offering you a very simple choice: your life or your death.

I would encourage you to see things for what they are, and throw out the idea that you must live according to everyone else's standards.

184 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:03:00am

#182 attyintampa

It isn't just you, but we sure could use more like you.

185 Iron Fist  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:03:28am

#163 Lazarus,

Exactly. When I hear the arguements that "experts" all agree torture doesn't work, I always wonder how they came to that conclusion. I mean, did they conduct experiments? If so, what kind of experiments?

It makes a big difference if the "torture" is a mild shock, followed by a slightly more sever shock if you are found to have lied (about all that would be ethically permissible in laboratory conditions) as opposed to hooking someone up to an arc welder, cranking up the amps, and promising them you'll cut of their hand with a chainsaw al la the shower scene in Scarface if they lie.

I know it would make a big difference to me.

186 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:12:56am

#185 Iron Fist

Yep, thanks for the post. You can't tell me that there is no bad guy in Iraq, who has valuable information on al Zarqawi, who, if given proper torture and incentives, wouldn't give up the goods. If you think it'd never work, then you either don't understand the issue or you are living in Oz.

187 Abu Messerschmitt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:33:47am
Look at this sweeping vista from the Chihuahuan Desert as seen in Big Bend Ranch State Park, Texas

Damn! That is beautiful.

188 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:35:49am

abu Messerschmitt-


I'm trying to talk my life partner into a road trip to West Texas someday. She isn't into sightseeing the way I am.

189 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:50:41am

#183 Lazurus

I see your point, and agree to a point, however, I think if we are going to engage in world affairs, and practice things like regime change and nation building, how we are percieved IS important. I'm not worried what people who want to kill me think. I AM concerned with what people we want to pursuade to our way of thinking think.

When the US is seen practicing things we claim to stand against as a culture, it makes things MUCH more difficult.

190 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:59:21am

#185 Iron Fist

The experts who say torture is ineffective are/were actual interegators, trained in obtaining information.

I agree that there are degrees of abuse, however you have to admit, some of the things that have come out amount to more that mild electric shocks.

191 attyintampa  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 12:04:11pm

*I agree that there are degrees of abuse, however you have to admit, some of the things that have come out amount to more that mild electric shocks.*

Richard- assume for the moment that the person being tortured is a known terrorist, who we suspect has information regarding future terrorist attacks against both Iraqi and American targets. Suppose also that he refuses to talk, under any circumstances.

Would you condone torture under these circumstances and to what extent would you say torture is permissible?

192 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 12:04:45pm

#189 Richard

When the US is seen practicing things we claim to stand against as a culture, it makes things MUCH more difficult.

But you see, we don't practice those things which you find so offensive as a norm of our culture. Torture and war are not part of everyday life in America; they are not written into the Constitution, nor are they upheld as values to pursue in our society. They are used to defend our values, when our values are threatened by the most hostile, irrational, savage people on the planet. And they're justified, because our enemies will not respond to reason, only force. Surely you must see this.

As to your first point, it's nice that the U.S. aims to spread freedom to dictatorships, but it really is irrelevant, and often enough, dangerous for us. The reason for the United States' existence is not to create a platform for overthrowing foreign slave pens and replacing them with free societies. It is to establish a free society of its own, and to stand as a beacon to all men who wish to live free (here!).

I'm glad that you agree with me, at least a bit, and credit you for doing so. I would encourage you to think this through further and to check your premises as you do. When we fight, we do so in the name of freedom. When terrorists fight, they do so in the name of oppression. That is worth remembering.

193 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 12:26:25pm

#192- Lazarus


I agree with what you said here, but I think you're missing the point that when we do engage in war, we are playing in other people's back yards, and how they percieve us IS important, as it effects how they will relate to us.

#191- attyintampa

Torture him. The problem I have with what's going on right now is that it hasn't been all "known terrorists" being abused. I say you capture someone on the battlefield who has been shooting at us, do what you want to him. When you have people in custody who may be innocent, or petty criminals, we should ensure that they are treated humanely. And since we are not holding trials at this point, the least we can do is treat prisoners well as long as we are uncertain of their identity.

194 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 12:39:07pm

#193 Richard

I assure you, I am not missing the point, but I think I'd be boring folks by continuing to discuss this.

195 Lazarus  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 12:44:48pm

I should add, I appreciate the fact that you're willing to discuss this civilly. I can tolerate a difference of opinion all day, as long as the person is cordial and honest.

196 Iron Fist  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 12:50:08pm

#190 Richard,

I'm wary of unnamed "experts". A link would be appreciated. Real torturers are not exactly hanging out in your local bars, not even the ones I hang out in. I'm not talking about the guy that plays "bad cop" down at the local precinct, either. SS, KGB under Dzerzhinskiy, NVA, yeah, they've got expertise at it.

And I'll grant you there was abuse, but it was almost to the level of force Japanese law enforcement is allowed to use to "compel" a confession (under Japanese law a confession can't be "coerced", but it may be "compelled". The law is somewhat vauge as to where, exactly, the line between the two is).

These guys crossed the line, and one of them has already won an all expense paid 10 year vacation to Club Ft. Levenworth for it.

What has me upset is that it has been blown way out of proportion. AS says it is one of the worst human rights abuses in decades. I guess he kinda forgot about that whole Rwanda thing, not to mention the slave-labor camps in China and that whole, um, Saddam regiem thingy.

Or for that matter, would you rather be a prisoner in Gitmo, or serving time in under the benevolent regiem of good old Uncle Fidel?

Like I said, AS is way over the top, and in so doing he is helping with enemy propaganda.

He has become part of the fifth colum he warned about.

197 jrdroll  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 12:57:56pm

To repeat:


Many prisoners disliked the move from Camp X-Ray, the first facility used at the base, to the more commodious Camp Delta, because it curtailed their opportunities for homosexual sex, says an intelligence analyst.


Now we know what's bothering Andrew Sullivan.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

198 Tim in PA  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 1:00:14pm

I generally think of Sullivan as one of those bloggers who I don't agree with, yet still think of as generally credible. Plenty of other blogs more in line with my political views also jump the gun on things and blow things out of proportion every now and then.

However, this time it was a bit much. He made a post a while back saying that "we now know" about all sorts of terrible acts, and then proceeded to not link to or post information from any source at all. Excuse me? I'm not going to tell you, nor will I believe myself for a minute, that every single person acting on behalf of our government always does the right thing; but if you make serious and widespread accusations like this, BACK THEM UP!

If these things happened, I want to know. But don't expect me to take you seriously without evidence. I've been listening to fabricated accusations from the far left for too long to take someone at their word on this subject.

199 Athos  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 1:01:34pm

#189 Richard

I see your point, and agree to a point, however, I think if we are going to engage in world affairs, and practice things like regime change and nation building, how we are percieved IS important.

Actually, if you listen to many of the moonbats, UN groupies, and other "experts" - the perception of the US is already out of whack with reality. Granted, perception can become reality - particularly when we think about the adage a lie told often enough often becomes the truth.

But let's take a hard look at what really happened in Abu Ghraib - it was not organized torture blessed from on high - but abuses conducted by noncoms without proper supervision by their officers, who were not adequately disciplined by the same officers for a previous history of disobedience to orders, and were promptly charged and tried for their crimes. Most of the ringleaders have been convicted and sentenced for their crimes. The officers involved have been relieved of duty, and will never see another promotion again.

The US does hold itself to a higher standard - and backs the enforcement of laws on its soldiers even in war. Most nations do not do that.

But you also have to ask yourself a moral question about torture and not make it a non-emotion intellectual exercise.....what would you do to get information from a person who knows where your 2 kidnapped children are when you are against a rapidly shrinking time frame to recover them alive? Do you talk? Negotiate and plea bargain? Or push the captive to the edge with threats and pain so that they provide you with the information?

(Just like the infamous debate question to Dukakis in 1988 where he failed miserably........)

200 Athos  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 1:22:54pm

#190 Richard

I need to add my support to Iron Fists' questions regarding links and doubts over unnamed "experts".

Abu Ghraib has been blown way out of porportion, and the media in particular seems to have no interest in reporting the facts, or admitting that the Military is holding those responsible accountable.

It's too easy to use this subject to placate the far left and use it as a propaganda tool to embarass and damage not only the Administration and it's course of action, but also the Military and troops.

Sullivan, along with a lot of others in MSM, are doing just that - using this issue for political purposes only - and justify this by claiming the moral high ground.

201 Katt  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 1:29:47pm

Give Andy a santorum award for the article.
{Posted by Andy:
CORRECTION: The newly minted word "santorum" - meaning "the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex" - didn't win the word of the year according to the American Dialect Society; it won the most outrageous word of the year. My apologies.
- 2:46:24 PM}
And people take this dingbat seriously. He'd best stick to pushing Teen Bear Mag

202 Richard  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 1:56:11pm

#196 Iron Fist

I agree that things have been blown out of proportion, and we have handled the situation pretty well. However, I always get a little put off when an argument comes to a point of "but [insert fucked up regime here] is so much worse!" The fact is, we DO hold ourselves to a higher standard (and should). I can't control what the animals that are the terrorists do, but we can have some influence on what we as a country permit and do. I think much of Sullivan's criticism is based in the idea that we are better than them, and should behave like it.

203 Geepers  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 2:02:13pm

Richard (#202),

I think much of Sullivan's criticism is based in the idea that we are better than them, and should behave like it.

A good place to start would be to not repeat anonymous unsubstantiated claims that only serve the jihadis interests, no?

204 Ferris Bueller  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 2:43:00pm

Long before push comes to shove, I'd much rather see one of their guys put through temporary discomfort, than see one of our guys end up permanently dead.

205 Thom  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 2:43:49pm

#204 Ferris Bueller

Hear hear.

206 Jim Rockford  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 2:47:46pm

Here's the deal with Sully.

His hatred over Bush and DMA has led him to pure partisanship.

I agree completely we should not torture people, that being defined as inflicting pain and suffering, physical and mental.

Playing the frickin Meow Mix commercial over and over again isn't torture. Neither is heavy metal music. Or having an interrogator (same one, no tag team) stay up all night with the guy shouting at him.

We need our interrogators to be able to use coercion and pressure like any DA in NYC would to question terrorists. If we don't give them these reasonable, limited tools Americans WILL die. It's that simple.

Sully would rather bash Bush than articulate support for policies that will save American lives while avoiding torture. Net result, CYA and only name, rank, serial number till the next big attack (which is coming). THEN all reasonable limits will go out the window, things will get really ugly.

Washington has no "medium" switch, it's either on or off.

207 Aisha  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 3:04:13pm

Why does Aisha get the feeling that much of Sullivan's criticism of the Bush Administration has as its source his desire for a not-so-Shar'ee Nikkah?

Actually, in Saudi Arabia, everyone wears dresses, the women have beards, we all shave our arses, and the men are so whiny that one never knows what one is marrying!

208 TalkinKamel  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 3:30:21pm

#172 Richard

How many pictures of Abu Ghraib were there to use as recruiting tools before 9/11?

Perception is just that. Perception. And Perception is not reality.

The reality is that America has rescued Moslems in Kosovo, Bosnia and Somalia, has bent over backwards to facilitate the (hyuk!) "Peace process" in Israel, got rid of the guy who killed more Moslems than the Crusaders ever dreamed of doing (Saddam Hussein) and showered foreign aid on Islamic countries. None of that prevented 9/11, or has made them love us. If this reality can't change their perceptions, I don't think anything can. Frankly, this isn't perception---it's delusion!

Forget using Abu Ghraib for propaganda---when we sent workers in to help the victims of the Tsunami, they used that for propaganda purposes! "OH, ALLAH, HELP US! THEY'RE COMING HERE JUST TO MAKE US ALL CHRISTIANS! AIIIEEEEEEEEE!)

When you hate somebody enough, it doesn't matter what you use as propaganda. Anything will do. They hate us. They hated us long before Abu Ghraib. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that situation, it has now just become another stick to beat us over the head with, and I am getting tired of it.

209 goldsmith  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 3:48:22pm

Sullivan's writing thoughtfully criticized by Heather Mac Donald, thoughtfully linked by Charles; commenters commence orgy of tired sexual innuendo based on Sullivan's sexuality, some commenters declare they stopped reading blog because of "obsession with gay marriage". Film at eleven.

Really, people. I cringe when I see Sullivan is the topic of a post here; I'm thankful to read an intelligent criticism of Sullivan's silliness, but I also know that I will be treated to a zillion "suggestive" and downright overt comments regarding Sullivan's sexual orientation, as if that somehow contributes to or invalidates everything he says and does. I know that kind of attack is par for the course in blog comments because it's quick and easy. At this point, however, it's highly annoying and awfully meaningless, like making fat jokes about Michael Moore. When faced with the appalling and offensive rhetoric of Moore, or Sullivan's rather skewed and schizoid political positions these days, do we really need to resort to schoolyardism? Doesn't their work provide "meet food to feed" (thank you, Shakespeare)?

Mocking can, indeed, be fun. Remember, though, that there's nothing inherent in being gay (or support for gay marriage for that matter) that causes bad political logic. My perverse gay nightlife is probably much more active than Sullivan's, and yet I do not share his emotional distortions about Bush or Abu Ghraib.

210 LesLein  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 4:03:32pm

In many ways Sullivan is becoming an LLL:

Attack the motives or intelligence of those you disagree with -- If you disagree with Sullivan on same-sex marriage you are either a "theocon" or motivated by political opportunism. There's no possibility that Sullivan's critics are decent and intelligent people who are thinking of the country's best interest.

Set unrealistic expectations about what the government can do -- Somehow, like Santa Claus, Bush was supposed to know who was naughty or nice in Iraq. Then, like Superman, he was supposed to immediately solve the problem.

Ad hominem attacks on critics -- Sullivan recently named an award after Michelle Malkin. If you go to her July 2004 archives you'll find the real reason, some funny links on Sullivan's "bandwidth" problem.

Use non sequiturs as arguments -- A Bush Administration official prepared a memo accurately stating that terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention. From this Sullivan concludes that Bush authorized torture.

Approval of judicial tyranny -- Sullivan wants unelected judges to decide policy rather than legislatures. He'll deny our right to self government in order to implement gay marriage.

Approval of civil disobedience -- Sullivan cheered the San Francisco city officials who disobeyed state law and issued same sex marriage licenses.

Indifference to facts -- Sullivan smeared the Swift Vets and the White House by saying the Bush campaign was behind the Swift Vet accusations.

Willingness to mislabel politicians -- We know that last summer Sullivan said that Kerry was the true conservative. How many remember Sullivan's sympathy for Howard Dean on the grounds that Dean was a fiscal conservative?

Use of deception to promote his views -- Sullivan says that a constitutional amendment against same sex marriage isn't necessary since the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) allows states to refuse to recognize these marriages. What Sullivan doesn't say is that he previously argued -- and even testified -- that DOMA is unconstitutional. He'll support a court challenge to DOMA once enough state judges impose same sex marriage.

211 LesLein  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 4:14:01pm

The good news is that Sullivan's increasingly being smacked down. He's a good writer but his knowledge is too superficial to hold up against someone who's informed about the topic at hand.

A few months ago Wretchard refuted his arguments about troop strength.

Before that Michelle Malkin linked to posts analyzing Sullivan's bandwidth claims. Contrary to his claims, Sullivan's traffic, and consequently the demand on his bandwidth, was declining in the months before his pledge campaign.

Sullivan got upset when The Weekly Standard published a negative review on a book that claimed that Lincoln was gay. If you check The Weekly Standard's recent posts you'll see that their writers make Sullivan look like a fool.

212 Frank IBC  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 4:18:27pm

Goldsmith -

OK, we'll say "Sullivan is fat" instead.

But seriously, point taken.

Oh, and Evariste is MINE, you bitch. :P

213 goldsmith  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 5:39:21pm

I call a moratorium on the phrase "judicial tyranny" when referring to things less than actual tyranny.

FrankIBC: Sully is a little pudgier these days...

Oh, and evariste is MINE.

214 LC LaWedgie  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 5:43:59pm

I guess this is as good a place to put this as any:

Terry Eagleton compares homicide bombers with those who jumped from WTC:

While insurgents have been blowing themselves apart in Israel and Iraq, a silence has prevailed about what suicide bombing actually involves. Like hunger strikers, suicide bombers are not necessarily in love with death. They kill themselves because they can see no other way of attaining justice; and the fact that they have to do so is part of the injustice. It is possible to act in a way that makes your death inevitable without actually desiring it. Those who leapt from the World Trade Centre to avoid being incinerated were not seeking death, even though there was no way they could have avoided it.

Terry Eagleton is professor of cultural theory at Manchester University

215 LC LaWedgie  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 6:01:24pm

Ref #214 -

This from Eursoc:

Suicides could blow themselves up in the desert or on lonely mountaintops and would still win the sympathy of western liberals; indeed, there may be academics out there ready to praise the theatrics of such an act. However, the death of the bomber is only a minor part of each suicide attack. Suicide bombers aim to kill as many people as possible. They choose to make themselves a weapon in order to place the explosion as precisely as possible - and in most cases, the targets are large gatherings of civilians: Nightclub queues, the faithful answering the call to prayer, children celebrating in pizza parlours.
216 Aisha  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 7:06:43pm

Why does everyone fight over evariste? Aisha is so jealous. Why don't y'all wanna look under her burkha?

217 Baldy  Wed, Jan 26, 2005 11:55:06pm

WOW. Reading this, and the comments, I know why I don't respect Andrew Sullivan, and why I am not a Republican. (Though I don't feel welcome in the Democratic party either).

218 Ferris Bueller  Thu, Jan 27, 2005 1:15:47am

I don't know if you can discuss Sullington's "descent into madness" without mentioning his obsession with same-sex marriage, because it was such an obvious tipping point. Also because it begs the question, why is winning the war against terrorists less important than getting access to a few privileges that have never been necessary before?

219 huckupchuck  Fri, Jan 28, 2005 8:34:33am

Disagree with Sullivan's positions if you must, but I think he is, at the very least, one of the most open, honest, and thoughtful thinkers out there. Sure, his personal crusades sometimes seem single-minded and passionate; but he has every right to voice his convictions with passion. We all do that, don't we?

Take issue with the substance of his writing, and leave the other stuff out of it.

I disagree strongly with about 80% of Sullivan's positions, but I admire his intellect, his candor, and his principled and reasoned stand on issues close to his heart.

I have to say that most of the comments in this thread are nothing but just plain mean and ugly ad-hominem attacks on Sullivan because of who he is rather than what he says. And we wonder why people think of conservatives as knee-jerk bigots?

220 Baldy  Fri, Jan 28, 2005 4:27:57pm

Well, I was in an awful mood when I posted earlier. On just about every issue I can think of, the Reps are better than the Dems. The Reps aren't saints, and the President isn't, but compared to the "loyal opposition," he is wonderful. In the grand scheme of things, nothing matters more than the fact our men and women are in harm's way, and need all of the support we can give them. Sullivan should realize that this is America's war, not Bush's war. We can either fight the true enemy, or wither and die.


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