I can vouch that Glenn’s right; I’ve received a few very nasty emails, and been called “Judas” here at LGF, simply for stating that I was uncomfortable with judging the people involved in Terri’s case, and criticizing the junk science and unfounded speculation that has been all too prevalent.

Thank you Charles for all you do.

You don't deserve this, and you shouldn't have to owe anyone an explanation.

I concur, we on the right can't become idiotarians ourselves, we need to constnaly look at things logically. I understand this case is very emotional but we really have to keep it cool

I've tried to avoid the whole debate; other than as a boon for us lawyers to remind people to get living wills (and you should get one - not just some random thing from the internet, but one that an attorney in your state has looked over for compliance with local laws and rules!) this case is a no-win situation. It's brought out the worst in people, and when passions cloud the mind, no good can come of it.

Lysander

Amen, RIP Ford, Amen.

Let me add my thanks as well, Charles. Do what's right; damn the chattering heads.

Lysander

Amen, Charles! We can't become idiotarians, no matter how likely it seems.

The scariest thing is that a state controls who can live and who should die.

Thank you Charles.

And it's sad that you have been cast in such a harsh light.
These accusers should walk in your shoes.

The only certainty I have left is that Terri will soon be gone. Prayers, always.

Well, I guess it just teaches us all to make a living will and pray it is honored.

...and my instincts tell me Michael Schiavo isn't squeaky clean on this. I don't really want to try to logically prove that since it's a feeling and opinion.

There's no point in getting hot about this topic. Unless someone has a "Miracle pill" like in The Princess Bride there will be NO happy outcome, feeding tube or not.

I am all SCHIAVO on my blogSCHIAVO!

I've tried to stay away from this issue, too, because I don't agree with what appears to be the consensus on lgf (at least among those who are being vocal about it).

I'm sorry that things have gone so far that Charles is being attacked simply for providing a link to a site containing factual information that challenges some people's opinions.

Cut it out, people. Try to remember that there are two sides to this story, and those who don't agree with you (regardless of which side you're on) are not evil.

WHY HASNT MICHAEL SCHIAVO ALLOWED A VIDEO OR A CAMERA IN THAT ROOM FOR 5 YEARS?

Since when has the LA Times considered Stalin a negative?

WHY HASNT MICHAEL SCHIAVO ALLOWED TERRY OUT OF THE ROOM FOR A BREATH OF FRESH AIR FOR FIVE YEARS?

WHY HASNT MICHAEL SCHIAVO ALLOWED A PET SCAN OR MRI TO EVER HAVE BEEN DONE?

"I’ve received a few very nasty emails, and been called “Judas” here at LGF..."

And we need to ensure that such behaviour remains the exception and not the norm.

OTOH...

"some on the right are acting like the left, flaming people like Rev. Donald Sensing because they express contrary opinions."

I myself am ready to "flame" Sensing, but it is precisely the opposite of the reason you posit. To me, it is Sensing who could use "A little less certainty"-- if you read his article "The Schiavo great divide", he presents you with the false choice of being in "one of two main camps", the "pro-life" of which is composed of religious zealot morons and/or those who merely want to "use" the occasion for their own political or egotistical reasons.

THEN he goes on to misrepresent Rush Limbaugh, THEN he goes on to lay down the last word (given not by G-d, clearly, though it does seem to have a similar confidence to revelations).

I could fisk that article, but it would take me literally hours and hours, and in the end, it would probably be fruitless: he ends that article with: "Here I stand, I can do no other."

Of course not-- why bother when his position is completely unassailable? And it is "we" who need "a little less certainty"?!?

AtlasShrugged -

There is no need to SHOUT.

I just dined with family & this matter along with politics were brought up. I am surrounded by moonbat-opinions at the table. My mom & brother are convinced Terri is braindead. I say she is brain-damaged.

Would only a Solomon-like judge appear - and issue a Solomon-like judgement, which in this case, would be to decipher which party proves to most love Terri, & then be given the ultimate authority over her care.

People get passionate when it comes to moral issues, political issues. Some get overly so on both sides. To some this is a travesty of judicial acitivism, to others this is state sanctioned murder. To other's it's a family matter (who should constitute "family" in cases like this?)
It's too late to save Terri. The country has to make sure that she doesn't die tragically in vain by taking this case and changing state laws, legal definitions (what constitutes a husband for instance), and a review of the judiciary.

We on the right must resist the temptation to follow the left in becoming over-emotional and demonizing our opponents. Let us soberly get down to the serious work of reforming our judiciary.

Check it out:

Liberals For Terri

Read The $10 Million Option .

I don't intend to point fingers, but seriously, this whole thing has brought out the worst on both sides. You've got folks on the Left who are basically cheerleading this woman's death as a victory over Bush, while you've got folks on the right who are saying "if you don't disagree with this woman's death, you're a monster!" On several conservative websites, I've seen the arguement that anybody who supports her right to death (myself included) is "cheering on her death."

And lastly, and I know I'm gonna get some hate my way for this, but alot of us on the right are giving our worst critics proof that we're nothing more than a bunch of "bible-thumping hypocrites." We're invoking G-d and stating that this woman should live because it's his will and all, which does nothing more than fuels the belief that we're blinded by own religion and no better than the Islamic fundamentalists that we fight.

And, for the record, I only support her right to decided if she wants to live or not. I consider what is going on, which is essentially slow torture, as barbaric and something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies.

WHY HASNT THE MSM PRESENTED THIS DR'S EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT
DR'S EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT

Thank you - the only thing that is certain is that there is misinformation spewing from most sides of this debate.

However, too many republicans are as power-obsessed as any loony socialist democrat. Why should the jerks in DC intervene in this case? The LA Times is right - this was a horrible abuse of power. It i such actions that insure why I will never call myself a Republican.

Glenn says that in the Terri Schiavo furor, some on the right are acting like the left, flaming people like Rev. Donald Sensing because they express contrary opinions.

No shit. It's a damned disgrace.

My dad spent 6 months on life support before he died at the age of 66 - not PVS - but diminished and with no real hope of recovery. Not a good situation.

What has happened in the Schiavo case is a tragedy and people on both sides have worked to make it a circus.

I am profoundly disturbed that she is being denied food and water but I do not feel the need to demonise her husband or the courts.

The bizarre demands for conformity of thought that have followed this case prove that neither side has a monopoly on either commonsense on stupidity.

#12 bigel:

Good Lord, man, are we going to start agreeing (see the "Myopic Assholes" thread at Discarded Lies)? I'll keep an eye out for the other three Horsemen.

Meanwhile, who do yo uthink should be in the next GBWT? Give me some names, not just a race.

There certainly has been a lot of blue on blue about Terri. I very much believe that her death is a travesty. I also believe that a lot of good and reasonable people can reach a different conclusion. I sure don’t want us to become like the sandbox left. One thing to keep in mind is a person’s track record. If they have been reasonable and decent in the past, then it’s not fair to assume they have suddenly become monsters because of a difference of opinion.

What I've noticed about this issue is that it does NOT cut along the normal Red/Blue fault line. When Rush Limbaugh and Ralph Nader are on the same side of an issue, you know it is really out of the norm.

That being said, I think that the ideological war between the Left and Right has become so furious that the heat has bled over into ALL other major debates. Vituperation has become de rigeur.

Which is a Very Bad Thing. Your arguments should be able to stand on their reasoning, not the heat with which they are expressed.

P.S. - The ultimate fallout of this case will be over Judicial Disobedience, not right to life/death. Things are reaching a boil.

#18 Amy

SATAN! NAZI! HITLER!

</oy>

#26 Thom:

Why, you *^%%$E^%&!

I have profoundly disappointed with the posters here on this subject. Wild claims with no facts behind them, posting your "feelings" as if they meant anything to the rest of us and just, in general, the kind of post you find on DU or KOS.

in todays WND when Terri Schiavo enters what are thought to be her last hours of life, allegations of political corruption and obstruction of justice on the part of state officials raise questions as to whether the brain-injured woman's court-ordered death by starvation might serve to cover up crimes committed against her.

sorry about porevious caps didnt realize typing like an animal didnt know it was on

I'm not nearly naive enough to believe that nitwits on the right are any better than the currently more prevalent loons on the left. Absolutism is evil. The days of single-mind parties is dead, in my opnion, left and right. I'm a neo-con that supports gay civil unions but not marriage, I hate abortion but think it should remain legal, etc. I'm against a culture of death and think Shiavo starving to death is horrid and yet letting her rot for another ten years only to die from complications doesn't seem much better. In short, I'm uncertain, but in no way does my uncertainity make me wrong. Thank God I live in a country where I can be free to be uncertain.

#35 bigel:

Ah, so I guess that this is more or less what you're looking for.

Ah, love ...

This whole situation could have been avoided if the judiciary excused themselves from what amounts to a moral decision not a legal one. But once again activist judges had to get into the mix. Terri's parents want her alive. Terri has no document describing her wishes. Terri's husband is a dick. Conclusion: Terri should live. For an explanation of why Terri's husband is a dick, re-examine his actions and ask yourself if these are the actions of a loving husband. To want to murder someone's daughter inhumanely against the parents wishes, makes him the biggest dick a woman could possibly marry. This is not rocket science. However, I can't see any medical hope for her. So, what to do? Let the parents decide, not a court.

Just in case you missed it. This is what happens from dehydration:

In 1906, W.J. McGee, Director of the St. Louis Public museum, published one of the most detailed and graphic descriptions of the ravages of extreme dehydration ever recorded. McGee's account was based on the experiences of Pablo Valencia, a forty-year-old sailor-turned-prospector, who survived almost seven days in the Arizona desert without water....

Saliva becomes thick and foul-tasting; the tongue clings irritatingly to the teeth and the roof of the mouth .... A lump seems to form in the throat ... severe pain is felt in the head and neck. The face feels full due to the shrinking of the skin. Hearing is affected, and many people begin to hallucinate... [then come] the agonies of a mouth that has ceased to generate saliva. The tongue hardens into what McGee describes as "a senseless weight, swinging on the still-soft root and striking foreignly against the teeth." Speech becomes impossible, although sufferers have been known to moan and bellow.

Next is the "blood sweats" phase, involving "a progressive mummification of the initially living body." The tongue swells to such proportions that it squeezes past the jaws. The eyelids crack and the eyeballs begin to weep tears of blood. The throat is so swollen that breathing becomes difficult, creating an incongruous yet terrifying
sense of drowning.

Finally ... there is living death, the state into which Pablo Valencia had entered when McGee discovered him on a desert trail, crawling on his hands and knees: "His lips had disappeared as if amputated, leaving low edges of blackened tissue; his teeth and gums projected like those of a skinned animal, but the flesh was black and dry as a hank of jerky; his nose was withered and shrunken to half its length, and the nostril-lining showing black; his eyes were set in a winkless stare, with surrounding skin so contracted as to expose the conjunctiva, itself as black as the gums...; his skin [had] generally turned a ghastly purplish yet ashen gray, with great livid blotches and streaks; his lower legs and feet ... were torn and scratched by contact with thorns and sharp rocks, yet even the freshest cuts were so many scratches in dry leather, without trace of blood" (Philbrick, 126-128).

So, yeah, if I become a little less tolerant of the "kill Terri" crowd, the above torture (which we don't do in this country) certainly should explain it.

simply for stating that I was uncomfortable with judging the people involved in Terri’s case, and criticizing the junk science and unfounded speculation that has been all too prevalent.

Charles,
What I find amazing is that for 15 years there have been appeals on the initial fact finding trial that have been based on on whether the original fact finding trial followed the SOP for trials and not on whether the "facts" collected were true or relevant. Indeed, the courts have ignored what treatment Terri has received from her "husband" during the 15 years of appeals. As far as junk science goes: is starving to death painless(next famine LET THEM DIE ITS PAINLESS) or that Terri is on life support(Are you on life support in a restaurant?)

My gripe is having her staved/dehydrated to death. If your intent is to end someone's life and you've got a court order telling you that it's okay to do so then do it. Society is not more "civil" by dragging the process out. Give Terry a painless injection and end it NOW. This "death watch" stuff is too much for alot of people to handle.

#32 Jheka

OH YEAH? JUST WAIT UNTIL YOU SEE HOW MANY FUCKING FUCKS I CAN PILE INTO A SENTENCE!

;)

#23- TargetPractice

We're invoking G-d and stating that this woman should live because it's his will and all,

this issue has nothing to do with God or the bible for me. For me it's about righting a wrong. And I see this as a series of bad calls from the beginning to the end, with an innocent person paying the price. The husband failed her, the doctors failed her, the police failed her, the courts failed, the whole system failed this girl.

People get passionate when it's about murder.
I too understand coma and the new terrible word "vegetard" coined by the left

but this woman was breathing on her own, communicating, and adored and loved. What I wouldnt give to be loved like that. that in itself is reason to live

I understand Charles and if we were talking about Sunny Von Bulow I would concur...........but I part company as she was cognitive.............she is alive

I'd love to stay for this, but tomorrow I'm working days for the first time in a long while- Oncology.
Maybe I can find some plugs or tubes to trip over and pull out.
/sarc off

Thom #31 -

Hey, I'm a Zionist Joooo, so I'm used to being called those kinds of names... (Just kidding, kinda sorta.)

/vey iz mir

New on Powerline, another reason to have "a little less certainty":

[Link: powerlineblog.com...]

I can vouch that Glenn’s right; I’ve received a few very nasty emails, and been called “Judas” here at LGF, simply for stating that I was uncomfortable with judging the people involved in Terri’s case, and criticizing the junk science and unfounded speculation that has been all too prevalent.

Glenn also points out that the “agree on everything or you’re evil” approach is exactly what has gotten the Democrat Party into such trouble; and I would add to that the failure to fact check and the willingness to believe in questionable sources with unshakable certainty.

Charles, thank you again for all you do--you're the best.
We lizardoids cannot allow our feelings on one matter to dictate how we act to others. Most of us here agree on many issues--Israel, the GWOT, etc. As strongly as you might feel on this issue, or any issue, please keep in mind that those you argue with here deserve respect. Remember: undivided we stand, divided we fall.

#38 Andy in Agoura Hills

This whole situation could have been avoided if the judiciary excused themselves from what amounts to a moral decision not a legal one.

Brilliant! And once the courts recused themselves, exactly who would have been left to settle the legal issues brought before the courts?

Charles,
I love you but have to disagree with you on this one.
I am a physician and have seen the tapes of Ms Schiavo and as soon as she started tracking a balloon (to say nothing of the reponses I observed to her mother...which were NOT involuntary responses) she did not fit into the category of Persisitent Vegetative state. She is severely brain damaged.
Whether you or I would want to live under these circumstances is irrelevant. It is what she would want. Without a written document stating her wishes and a clear dispute as to what her wishers were we should err on the side of letting her live.
IF the Schindlers were wrong and she truly was i a PVS then no harm is occuring. It would simply be a vegetable being allowed to live and even if this was not her wish she would be unaware.
If the Schiavo and courts are wrong and she does have some cognition (any cognition) then we are allowing a human being to be murdered.
It seems to me the consequences of the Schiavo's being woring are far worse then the Schindlers being wrong and we should give life the benefit of the doubt.

I applaud the government for stepping in and forcing the courts to re-reviewas they often do for any murderer on death row. If our government cant protect the weakest and neediest of us from being railroaded, heaven help us all!

#43 AtlasShrugged

People get passionate when it's about murder.

It is not murder. Murder does not equal killing. Murder is a legal term meaning the unlawful killing of a person.

Just fact checking you.

The way I see it, there's two scenarios, mutually exclusive, that could be the right one.

either 1) The husband is a monster, intent on something, and behaving badly, and the parents have fully deluded themselves into thinking that their daughter will get better any second now when unfortunately she has higher brain functions equivalent of the common doorknob, or

2) The husband is acting 150% in good faith, on what she told him before all of this happened, and the paretns are 150% correct, and Terri will wake up in the space it takes me to do this post.

Obviously, both can't be right. I have no bloody idea which is, and frankly not even the parties themselves know which is, either.

In just looking around, the best outline of the case I've found is at [Link: abstractappeal.com...] (Wow, I've been gon so long I forgot how to do the hidden url/link thing!) (I have no connection to the site, just as a disclaimer). Just from that outline, it looks like everyone is locked into their positions, with no hope of escape. Unfortunate, but sadly true.

Lysander

Sorry Charles if you've received hateful e-mails. Or if others have or are upset by this passion event.

Yet, we all will recover from any slights incurred, no doubt, but Terri Schindler (Schiavo) is actually the one person who is dying from the courts' actions. While we can nurse our grudges or hurt feelings, this is what Terri is undergoing now.

[Link: www.newsmax.com...]

Of all the strange fallout from this gigantic argument, I never thought one of the results would be an area of agreement between bigel and Jheka. I stand here (well, sit actually) dumbfounded.

#46 Amy

Well, you did fail to rant hysterically, therefore you are evil.

;)

Charles: we're behind you on this one.

as for Bush - he counts lives saved and lost in the hundred of thousands, if not millions. tying up the Federal Executive and Legislative branches for one person will ultimately kill many more people.

#50 danrudy

Charles,
I love you but have to disagree with you on this one.
I am a physician and ...

... have no compunction about diagnosing someone you have not examined!

Great!

Judith at Liberal Hawks put it succinctly when she said
"I think it has captured the public imagination because it is about
huge issues in our society and in everyone's life: what is "life"?
What is "quality of life"? What is "human"? How do families resolve
disputes? what is the role of the legal system? How do our 3 branches
of govt. interact with each other? How do we treat citizens with
disabilities? etc. HUGE questions."

The medical and moral opinions are flying around, no doubt about it. But isn't a more primary question, "Who decides?"

That the remarried husband still is the guardian of his first wife seems a legal throwback to the bad old days when a man basically owned his wife.

But even in the time before women had rights, a rejected wife usually went back to her parents. So in this case we have the worst of both worlds.

If Michael is still the husband of Terri, can he be prosecuted for bigamy?

#49 Thom 3/26/2005 05:26PM PST

Thom,

I should have put more detail in there. The court should have made the parents their daughter's guardian, after that, the courts are not involved. Then the parents would have said how and when Terri would die. Instead the courts have this say. I don't like it. It's not the court's decision.

Lysander-

I find this disturbing:

[Michael]Schiavo does not want an autopsy upon death and instead wishes her[Terri's] remains to be immediately cremated after death. Greer reaffirmed that Monday with a decision that allows Schiavo to have her ashes removed to Pennsylvania instead of allowing her to be buried in Florida as her parents requested.

This guy's not got a lot of "Clean Karma".

Liberal California has spent nearly $3 million on Scott Peterson/Laci murder trial and who knows how much more will be spent on further appeals (not to mention jail costs) to keep that and other murdererous scumbags alive at taxpayer expense.

Thank you Dems, Ol Judge Rose Bird and criminal lawyers & judges. Your priorities are perverse when no expense is spared not for the least among us but for the worst, including those victims of panties on the head abuse.

I'm going to pay much more attention to judicial nominations and will support conservatives from here on out as there's many years of crappy appointment to reverse.

If there had been a clear consensus from the beginning with all of the correct facts presented, then the debate would not have become so heated and devisive.
But when those who have in the past mostly been in accord begin to emote an anger that approaches intolerance and hatred is unexcusable.
It's like all of a sudden that only one side has the right of dissent and speech.
There are none who have debated this sorry situation have All of the pertinent facts, lots of the passion is being carried on feelings and we all know what we've opined on this in the past.
I earnestly hope that after the fact there will be an indepth investigation into the 'husband' and the judge along with the justice system involved.

Charles heading "a little less certainty" and the article he chose by Jeff Jacoby are perfect.

#51 engineer

It is not murder. Murder does not equal killing. Murder is a legal term meaning the unlawful killing of a person.

A legal homicide.

#54 Charles

Next, Gordon will show up and state that he agrees with you. Should that happen, I believe it will be time to start keeping an eye out for four guys on horses.

Engineer

Murder is a legal term meaning the unlawful killing of a person.

That is exactly what I meant
that is exactly what I see happening, and Michael Schiavo's weapon of choice is the leftwing cowboy Judge Greer (15 years of Greer)

I feel that her parents, not her husband, should have the authority to decide her fate. Those who disagree on grounds that this opinion in its logical conclusion would disrupt the idea of marriage, bite me. I'm not saying parents should have total rights over someone for all their lives. Parents bring us into this world. Parents should be afforded the right to handle matters, where possible, when we leave this world.

My mother is 72 years old and was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer just last week. She decided to not fight the cancer. So the doctors sent her home with prescriptions for the heaviest painkillers available. The day before yesterday she and I met with people from Hospice to begin coordinating with them any help we may need, while Mom waits for the inevitable. If someone not blood related to my mother tried to force her to do anything against her wishes right now, I would remove them from the picture.

Terri Schiavo has parents with a much deeper connection to her than her husband. Her fate should rest in the hands, in this situation, of her parents, the ones who brought her here.

If Terri Schiavo was my sister or my child or my mother, I would have removed her husband from the picture already.

Our government has built a transportation system that kills 30-40,000 of us each year. They could reduce those deaths by at least 90% by reducing the speed limit to 20 mph. Of course, we would vote them out of office and elect people that would let us drive faster even though we would know what the results would be.

Think about it.

I really hate what this has done to us we are a mainly forigen policy blog with a lot of differnt people here. the only thing msot of us on LGF agree on is foriegn policy . we are all over the social/economic spectrum but we agree on foriegn policy. There are millions of socially cosnertive/socially liebra blogs wher eyou can post on this to your hearts content. but PLEASE stay off LGF. many peoel feel strongly both ways but plenty of others dont' have one. I for one dislike it (esp the courts ordering it) but i can also symapthieze with it. So please everyone lets keep the TS talk to a minimm. Charles i understnad your prob under a lto of presasusre to psot on this but LGF is just not that kind of blog.

#58 atlas shrugged

What is "quality of life"?

Don't let a latte drinking liberal define that for me.

Is it true that Michael Shiavo has forbidden Terri's parents from coming to the funeral?

Thom,

As it turns out my examination of the tapes (all 10 minutes of them is only 35 minutes shorter then one of the "experts" in this case who diagnosed her as being in a PVS. (which btw, you generally need a week or two to confidently make this diagnosis because these pt's have an altered sleep/wake cycle. If you observe them during a "sleep" period they may seem to be in a PVS.
What I observed in a few minutes was clearly during her "wake cycle" and someone tracking a balloon (and this has been verified by pysicians and Shcindler experts who have examinied her) precludes the diagnosis of a PVS!
Sorry dude, but I dont have to examine you to know you are alive if yo are typing responses...it kind of speaks for itself.

#43- Atlas

Terri is perfectly healthy except for her brain, and we aren't really sure exactly what condition her brain is in. There seems to be enough conflict and difference of opinion on that to warrant new tests. Why deny her that? What's the rush? She's been in that state for years...what's another month? If there was ANY little new fact or question about the case of a death row prisoner, the prisoner will be allowed an appeal, so as never to execute an innocent. But the innocent are not afforded the same appeal? No stay of execution for Terri?

The husband's behavior is beyond my ability to understand, so he too is suspicious. It makes me think something is very wrong here. If she is truly brain dead, then so be it. Let her go home to her family to die peacefully with them...why does she have to die in a hospice if there is nothing they are doing for her anymore?

#50 danrudy

...
It is what she would want.

That appears to be what the May 1998 case was about, receiving court direction as to what her choice would have been.

Without a written document stating her wishes and a clear dispute as to what her wishers were we should err on the side of letting her live.

I'm not licensed in Florida, so I don't have a full grasp on Florida law, but it appears to have the exact opposite presumtion - that, absent, a living will, those who would need assistance to live would not get such assistance. The only way to change this is to change the law - but you'd be running up against a good number of the seasoned citizens there that wanted this presumption this way.

I'd a damn mess.

Anyone need a living will? /shark suit

Lysander

Although I don't agree with Charles on this issue, that does not make him evil in my eyes. We are just two guys that don;t agree on one single issue.

I think the ex-husband is just taking the opportunity to make her go away by killing her.

Maybe she is brain dead or she is just brain damaged, I don't know. I think where the court erred on this one was when they did not transfer custodial rights back to her family from her scumbag husband. I do think he is evil if he is not telling the truth.

For the record, Charles, even though I disagree with you about this issue, I still look on you as a god.

I disagree with the real actual God about stuff, too.

#67 AtlasShrugged

That is exactly what I meant

Then you are wrong. Morally right or not, this is legal. The highest court in the land had the chance to over rule Judge Greer but they did not.

Although I don't agree with Charles on this issue, that does not make him evil in my eyes. We are just two guys that don't agree on one single issue.

That should read:
Although I don't agree with Charles on this issue, that does not make him evil in my eyes. We are just two guys that don't agree on this one single issue.

Engineer

It is not murder. Murder does not equal killing. Murder is a legal term meaning the unlawful killing of a person.

JUDICIAL MURDER

#68 justdanny 3/26/2005 05:34PM PST

Bravo! I've been arguing this same point, but no one looks beyond the legal decisions. There's morals and blood involved here too. And its very simple to see.

Face it, this was a lousy test case.
Should anyone on a feeding tube ever be removed from it before "natural death"? This could have carried over to every emergency room case and every old folks home in the country.
Meanwhile, the whole conspiracy theory that Mike Schiavo was the one who put her in a veg state to begin with is completely unproven, and possibly unprovable.
This case has enormous ramifications for people in quite different scenarios from Terri; those nearer the natural end of life, say in their late 80s or 90s.

The only thing that got this in the news is Terri's youth, and the intrigue that her husband may be hiding something, and that he wasn't saint enough to "stay true" to Terri; he found another girl while Terri was incapacitated.
Was he supposed to wait forever, and never be a father?
What would anyone else do in his situation?
If the decision of Terri's care was taken away and given back to her parents, what would that do to the institution of marriage? Are we always our parents little angels?
This was a very complicated case.

Once she has died, than it will be time to rework the laws, but this last-minute flurry of activity after 15 years of PVS or whatever you want to label it was bound to be futile in the glacial world of Justice.

Justdanny,

mother is 72 years old and was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer

Oh man, you are in my prayers...My Dad got lymphoma on top of Wegener's Granulometosis(sic).

I never got to thank my father for making all of the painful decisions that had to be made.

I need a kleenex...

This terrible case is haunting me.

While I silently think that her parents are deluding themselves, and I don't think Terri Shiavo is going to get any better, the barbarous method chosen to put her to death just isn't acceptable.

Is anyone reassured when we're told "she can't feel anything, and even if she does, she's doped so she won't; oh, and it's a gentle death, even providing moments of euphoria"?

I know I'm not.

I know how I feel. I also know I'm not going to shout at people, and I'm not going to condemn Michael Shiavo. No, I don't understand him. But for all I know, he's acting on a deep conviction.

Is this the SNDT? Because alcohol and this subject certainly don't mix...

#73 danrudy

I watched the same videos you did.

Whoopty-shit. Several seconds of heavily-edited hours-long footage.

Doctors opining on a patient they have never examined are dangerous creatures indeed.

#60 Andy in Agoura Hills

According to law and tradition, a married person's next of kin is his/her spouse.

But let's just trash that, shall we?

@59 Brenda

That the remarried husband still is the guardian of his first wife seems a legal throwback to the bad old days when a man basically owned his wife.

From all of the good information that I've read, Shiavo is not married to the woman who had his children.

The truth is, he made a vow to Terri as well as G-d ( if they were married in church) for better or for worse, in sickness and in health. He broke his vow when she fell into her current state.
He has not been faithful to his still living wife.
Which the one thing I continue to look at and see his duplicity, and I personally judge him on that in that he is not trustworthy.

#36 Atlas

At the risk of being in the minority, I think I agree with you in general.....something I haven't seen posted yet....

Given that the facts of her case appear only to have been determined in one of the earliest of the many court proceedings in the past 15 or so years and with all of the questions raised by people who seem to be reasonably level headed, wouldn't it have been prudent to keep her on her feeding tube long enough to look at all the information we now have?

There are numerous questions that congress saw fit to ask a federal court to look into....I'm very disappointed that Mr. Green decided not to.

There are questions about Michael's motives. Questions about whether or not she's in a vegatative state having been so declared by a right-to-die advocate doctor. And questions about Terri's wishes, not 15 years ago, but today.....raised by her reactions to being told she needed to tell someone that she wanted to live, if she did.

I just think Terri is getting the bum's rush (and 13 years of legal wrangling doesn't mean anything substanting was litigated).

Lysander,
I am licensed and practicing in florida.
That is not the presumption. In this case it was not an issue anymore because Judge Greer , found as fact, that these were Teri's wishes.
However, I seriously doubt she said to her husband,"honey, if I am ever seriously injured and brain dead OR SEVERELY BRAIN DAMAGED, dont let me live that way.

Dont get me wrong, If I thought she was in a PVS or in pain I would feel differently. I would say dope her up and kill her (which would be more merciful then this starvation thing)
But, I believe she is merely very brain damaged. Someone who has suffered a severe stroke , and thus still capable of some (any ) cognition and therefore should not be treated as if she was a rock or a vegetable but given the benefit of life.

Charles:

You don't have to agree that Terri Schiavo should live, but failing to agree, you have to ask yourself why.

What is the harm in feeding her? I see no harm.

It is not our fault she did not put her wishes in writing. Being objective, you have to doubt whether she would have wanted to die like this.

Hearsay from her husband should not be good enough. It seems inherently untrustworthy.

And if she really can't feel any pain, what misery we are rushing to end?

I can't be callous enough to brush it off.

There are a lot of people who are angry about this and they are not going to forget it. I do not know how that anger is going to manifest itself, but it will. There will be a political price to be paid by someone, I am just not sure who it will be.

engineer

Our government has built a transportation system that kills 30-40,000 of us each year. They could reduce those deaths by at least 90% by reducing the speed limit to 20 mph. Of course, we would vote them out of office and elect people that would let us drive faster even though we would know what the results would be.

I will not equivocate on death. Or rationalize a death by morally inverting it. Every wrong must be fought. Every wrong must be righted. your argument is a sophism and frankly at this moent irrelevant but if you wish to start a movement to diminish said deaths then please provide me with all of the evidentiary documentation and we, you and I, will fight that fight.

But Terri is being ripped from the family that loves and adores her.
Where is your conscious man?

#79-Engineer

#79 engineer

The highest court in the land had the chance to over rule Judge Greer but they did not.

Yea right. A bureaucracy run by lawyers is not going to dis one of their own unless it is blatant to the feeding tube people.

#81 AtlasShrugged

JUDICIAL MURDER

Words mean things, but those words don't. Call it "Judicial Killing" if you want, that would be correct.

AtlasShrugged's comments are very representative of those who have been woefully confused by the few seconds of videotape that have played endlessly on TV in the past couple of weeks. They don't understand, those few seconds were culled from a 4 hour tape that shows Terry completely unresponsive to any stimulus. She is not cognizant, she is not conscious, she doesn't communicate, she hasn't done any of this for the past 15 years!

I was attacked on this forum, and a couple of others, for expressing the same views as our fearless moderator Charles. I'm not surprised he got some "You damn Nazi!"-emails. Some of you people are WAY off-base and ill-informed on this topic, and WAY too ready to gang up and pile on those who don't toe your ideological lines.

The pertinent info is out there, if you care to look at it. Stop listening to Randall Terry and Sean Hannity rave for a few ticks, and read up. You'll feel a lot better, in the morning.

#79 [Engineer] 3/26/2005 05:39PM PST

Then you are wrong. Morally right or not, this is legal.

Ah, but that is the problem. You cannot divorce morality from legality. For example, Dennis Prager uses this all the time: it was legal to kill Jews in Nazi Germany. Did that make it morally right?

#94 jrdroll

ea right. A bureaucracy run by lawyers is not going to dis one of their own unless it is blatant to the feeding tube people.

Get real. They override lower courts all the time. They just stopped Texas, and other states, from killing teenagers that have committed murder.

My husband, a pediatrician, has handled the deaths of children for 43 years. His comment: Terri did not require any "extraordinary care", she is not terminal, It's a no brainer. Her life should not be ended. I agree. What is so hard about erring on the side of life when Terri has family to care for her? I have personally seen and personally taken care of family in those sad circumstances. I treated members of my family with respect and love. In turn, they gave me much more. When you have witnessed dehydration and starvation, no matter what palliative care is given, it is a bad bad sight. I say, vidotape this, and watch everyone. Then decide. It is not as "beautiful" as the LA Times and Michael Schiavo's lawyer would have you believe.

#79 [Engineer]

Can we declare a ceasefire long enough for me to denounce you as a death camp guard just following the orders of your Nazi overlords?

</Yeah, that was sarcasm. Not the bit about the cease fire though.>

#61 Sean
This guy's not got a lot of "Clean Karma".

You're right - but as the saying goes "that and a dollar gets me a cup of coffee." On the other side, I have no idea if her parents have 'clean karma' in that they might be engaging in wildly wishful thinking. I don't know.

What I do see is the call for the wholesale rending of long-standing settled law outside the limited scope of this case - for example, that spouses are the immediate next of kin, and can make decisions which affect their spouses when their spouses are unable to make decisions for themselves. Rip out that presumption, other areas must fall as well. Wills - which everyone's now being told to get - would fail; titling property in "husband and wife" would no longer carry the same protections they do now for their real estate. Even the 'de novo' call is brushing up against the presumption of res judicata and precident, which form the basis of consistency in our legal system.

We can utterly destroy our whole 'rule of law' system if we're willing to toss out the whole system simply because one set of decisions didn't match our expectations.

Lysander

#70 Hari Selden--true we're a diverse group interested in many things primarily foreign policy but it is also true that TS' case and Bush's involvement reflect his and our deeply held convictions that carry over into foreign policy. Bush said all people (including Arabs) desire freedom, all people can govern themselves, all people have a right to live & worship, etc., which reflect his belief that individuals matter. Stalin said somthing like "an individual death is a tragedy, millions dead a statistic." There you have it.

#72 Carolyn--Schiavo's also interfering with her religious traditions as well as keeping her family from her--like a muslim married man. Had Michael Schiavo had any decency (or nothing to hide), he should have divorced Terry Schindler and let her family care for her.

BTW I am not religous (though a passionate zionist)
and I am PRO CHOICE
do not beleive for one second that this a "political football" I believe that the President, the Govenor and Congress took a political hit to follow their conscious (the President had the largest drop in approval raings in one week than any other President)

The Schiavo case has had me thinking a lot. You think more about the problem at 79 than at 19.

I can accept that most if not all doctors who examined Terry closely over the time conclude that she is in a PVS. I don't give too much credit to those "specialists" who spend one hour watching her and then come up with a diagnosis. I appreciated even less the attitude of politicians (sorry, they were Republicans) who make a remote diagnosis after watching some video clips.

The truth is, we don't know for sure what PVS really means. We assume that the person is gone, won't feel anything, is "as good as dead". But we don't know. All we know is that she can't communicate anymore.

Most people would answer no to the question, whether you would like to be kept in that state for decades. The answer might be less forceful if you told them, that you'd be dying of thirst and hunger. Lets hope a PVS-person really doesn't feel anything and that death comes gently. Actually I believe it makes no difference whether you deny a helpless person food and water or give them an overdose of morphium. There is some moral hypocrisy involved about that. It is extremely dangerous to consider "life not worth living"... the Nazis went down that road already. But there is such a thing as mercy. It's awfully hard to draw a line.

The Schiavo case is a family tragedy. We would never have heard of it, had the parents agreed with the husband. And lets face it: We wouldn't have heard from a 80 or 90yo woman.

If the husband only true intention is to fulfil Terri's wishes, I won't blame him. It's a hard decision for sure and many people could never envision it. In Terri's case, I believe, the legal system has not fully considered the conflict of interests that the husband has. That's why the benefit of the doubt "pro life" should have prevailed... legally.

In Germany, the case could not have developed the same way. The law does not allow to terminate a PVS.. patients suffering of "Wachkoma" must be fed. A husband would immediately lose custody trying to push for ending the feeding (by legal means or other). You can sign legal wills, durable power of attorney, and the hospital and doctors must honor them, but - and I only found this out today - not in a PVS case. Yet, with old people, doctors usually don't push the limits to prolong the life of a patient who has no chance of even the slightest recovery. So they might not start a "forced feeding" with a tube for a terminally ill patient. Water would, as I learned, never be denied.

We should acknowledge that there is no absolutely "right" or "wrong" in this case. Threatening judges is clearly uncalled for. And smearing the husband's action should only happen with some hard evidence to back things up. The nursing assistants are a bit late to the party. If Michael Schiavo behaved in such a despicable way as they described, they should have taken action much earlier. It sounds incredible to me, that a hospice would tolerate a husband yelling "is the bitch dying yet" without alerting the authorities.

Let's hope that Terri dies peacefully. She deserves this, at least. And may both the parents and the husband find peace as well.

I will only say it seems bizarre and cruel to starve anyone to death, even if they are in a "vegitative state", but I can understand the point of view of those who see no reason to keep a brain-dead person alive. There is no simple answer here.

It seems all too clear now that she will die soon, but I fear this episode has opened Pandora's box. Are elderly nursing home residents that can't feed themselves the next to be thrown under the bus by their children whose inheritance is fading with each monthly bill? Handicapped babies? Comatose patients? Where will the line be drawn?

#69 [Engineer] 3/26/2005 05:34PM PST

"They could reduce those deaths by at least 90% by reducing the speed limit to 20 mph."

yes and no. people don't drive based on the posted speed limit.

but even if we could make people drive 20 MPH, the cost to society could potentially kill more than 30K from all sorts of secondary problems - poor delivery time for medicine could easily kill 10s of thousands and who knows what would happen to the food supply. just the decrease in economic activity would lead to more deaths.

According to law and tradition, a married person's next of kin is his/her spouse.

But let's just trash that, shall we?

Now now Thom. Let's talk about things rationally, shall we? Each case is unique. That's not trashing law or tradition.

#79- Engineer

Speaking of opinions that might be considered heresy her at LGF, I'm rethinking my view that moderate Muslims have been marginalized and timid to the point of uselessness based on this essay.

I dismissed this at first as quaint - until I read it carefully.

Consider the success:

Some freed militants were so transformed that they led the army to hidden weapons caches and offered the Yemeni security services advice on tackling Islamic militancy. A spectacular success came in 2002 when Abu Ali al Harithi, Al Qaeda's top commander in Yemen, was assassinated by a US air-strike following a tip-off from one of Hitar's reformed militants.

Yemen has been experimenting with reforming Al Qa'eda members through debate and a version of the Socratic method.. Now I realize that because of the many horrible Hadiths and many hostile verses in the Koran (I posted a count once, something like 200 - outnumbering peaceful verses), it's taken for granted here at LGF that there can be no moderate, peaceful Islam, only moderate Muslims.

But as the essay points out, if you go back far enough there's another source of Islamic thought - Islamic jurisprudence, some of which is very moderate and even wise. Certainly one can find Islamic opinions that range all over the map, but people who've been taught to respect only authority can't be swayed by logical arguements or by obvious evil consequences alone, but often CAN be swayed by the combination of logical, sense and appeals to revered authority.

Building upon the proscriptions of the Prophet Muhammad, Muslim jurists insisted that there are legal restrictions upon the conduct of war. In general, Muslim armies may not kill women, children, seniors, hermits, pacifists, peasants or slaves unless they are combatants. Vegetation and property may not be destroyed, water holes may not be poisoned, and flame-throwers may not be used unless out of necessity, and even then only to a limited extent. Torture, mutilation and murder of hostages were forbidden under all circumstances. Importantly, the classical jurists reached these determinations not simply as a matter of textual interpretation, but as moral or ethical assertions. The classical jurists spoke from the vantage point of a moral civilization, in other words, from a perspective that betrayed a strong sense of confidence in the normative message of Islam. In contrast to their pragmatism regarding whether a war should be waged, the classical jurists accepted the necessity of moral constraints upon the way war is conducted.

Fadl also expands the concept of hirabah by mentioning the term those classical jurists had for those who wage it, the muharib (the root Arabic word is the same, just as the root words for jihad and muhajedin are the same):

Muslim jurists reacted sharply to these groups, considering them enemies of humankind. They were designated as muharibs (literally, those who fight society). A muharib was defined as someone who attacks defenseless victims by stealth, and spreads terror in society. They were not to be given quarter or refuge by anyone or at any place. In fact, Muslim jurists argued that any Muslim or non-Muslim territory sheltering such a group is hostile territory that may be attacked by the mainstream Islamic forces. Although the classical jurists agreed on the definition of a muharib, they disagreed about which types of criminal acts should be considered crimes of terror. Many jurists classified rape, armed robbery, assassinations, arson and murder by poisoning as crimes of terror and argued that such crimes must be punished vigorously regardless of the motivations of the criminal. Most importantly, these doctrines were asserted as religious imperatives. Regardless of the desired goals or ideological justifications, the terrorizing of the defenseless was recognized as a moral wrong and an offense against society and God.

How weird. I keep trying to post, but my comments don't show up, except for the addressee. OK nevermind I believe in fate.

it was legal to kill Jews in Nazi Germany. Did that make it morally right?

I knew someone would say that...

It is OK to come to the conclusion that justice isn't being served and a moral belief trumps the accepted legal authority.

That's what our ancestors did when they defied colonial rule.

#97 Andy in Agoura Hills

t was legal to kill Jews in Nazi Germany. Did that make it morally right?

Of course not, but it may have been legal. Ask Iron Fist about the Trail of Tears. Probably legal, but certainly not morally right. Slavery was legal but not moral.

#97 Andy in Agoura Hills

andy there is no compariosn there.

::invokes goodwins law::

Charles

Please try not to scream at each other (or me) too much, OK? It’s giving me a headache.

As always, I try to act as if I am a guest in your living room.
I guess you recognize that your guests have strong feelings on both sides of this issue, and you are probably not asking us not to change our views.
Maybe just not have a riot in your house.

Sometimes guests just don't take a hint.

Thom,
You missed the point...if she even tracks an object for a second that is evidence of higher brain function. There are enough MD's who have examined her who disagree with the diagnosis.
So since the diagnosis is in dispute, should we err on the side of giving her the benefit of the doubt.
I dont understand this desire to see her dead if there is a chance we could be wrong.

Hell, my mom is in the hospital right now for the last 6 months with a spinal cord injury and has required a feeding tube for the last 3 months because of infections i her retropharyngeal region from the hardware.
Believe me, a feeding tube is no big deal...it is hardly extraordinary measures.

BTW, would you agree that if this lady should die as you believe is her wish, wouldnt you agree it was just be more merciful to take her out back and shoot her quickly rather then let her die over two weeks from starvation?
Shit, I would do to my dog what they are dong to her if he was terminal and in pain...I would just end it quickly.

#96 octopus

You may be right. In the end, though, my objection is that this is a cruel and terrible way to kill her. It is, no matter what anyone is trying to tell me about "She can't feel anything...it's a kind death...blah, blah, blah" simply unacceptable.

No harm would come to anyone if Michael Shiavo turned her over to her parents. It wouldn't hurt anyone, and - if Terri Shiavo is "really" dead, then we should think of the living, who are the Schindlers.

I'm not calling you names, and I'm not subscribing to the junk science. I'm just saying the method is barbaric, and shouldn't be tolerated.

I wanted to say this about that last blockquote but ran over the character limit.

Certainly one can find Islamic opinions that range all over the map, but people who've been taught to respect only authority can't be swayed by logical arguements or by obvious evil consequences alone, but often CAN be swayed by the combination of logical, sense and appeals to revered authority.

And so the following arguements have real power among Muslims

#116
meant to say, I would NOT do to my dogs what ther are doing to her if they were in pain or terminal...I would end it quickjly rather then let them linger for two weeks

A Rabbi Weighs In

A MUST-READ FROM SOMEONE WHO KNOWS

Wow, 7 posts appeared between my last two posts in just a few seconds. That obscures what I was saying a bit. Must have been a server hiccup.

#109 American Infidel

Judges are out of control ! ! !

I agree 100%. One of the defining things about America is that we are a nation of laws and we need to fix this problem by fixing the laws.

About the marriage thing, a husband is the wife's next of kin and vice versa. If there is a murder, who do the police suspect right off? That's right! There is a reason that husbands and wives are the focus of a police investigation, most murdered women are the victims of their domestic partner.
What I am getting at is, the husband is certainly not the one to decide if the wife is to live in EVERY case. There are two people who love Terri unconditionally and want to care for her, he should have backed away, and if he wouldn't give up guardianship, it should have been stripped from him when he was proven to be adulterous.
Just my two cents.

#86 Chris:

I'm of the belief that alcohol is REQUIRED for this subject. I'm enjoying a big stein of vodka right now.

Anyway please don't miss my long post and link at #110

...

#123 [Engineer]

I agree totally (almost).....how much do laws matter if those who adjudicate are corrupt?

My one single question is: Why doesn't Michael Schiavo divorce Terry and sign away care to her parents and marry his current girlfriend? This nightmare could end for Michael, Terry's parents, and all of us.

#125 Jheka

Well, I may just have to pour myself a vino...

mara (exit zero) of the hawks said she saw a segment on TV yesterday where Schiavo's girlfriend was
being interviewed about the fact that she was brought into to see Terri
after her feeding tube was already removed. Why? So she could witness
her death? She talked about how peaceful Terri looked.

Huh?

Starve a wife, bring a fiancée.

This man is just delightful. The inappropriateness of his behavior
knows no bounds.

#103 Atlas Shrugged

do not believe for one second that this a "political football" I believe that the President, the Govenor and Congress took a political hit to follow their conscious

I believe that, too. I haven't read all of this thread, or the other one. I just know that all of us feel so badly about this. When a case like this pours down through the sieve, laws need to change. Fast.

I agree with much that Jeff Jacoby has to say on the topic. (Pity, also, Charles that you are receiving flak for this, especially given that your blog has little to do with this subject.)

Having said that, I disagree strongly with Michael Schiavo's position. I am dumbstruck by the findings of fact issued by Judge Greer.

Finally, I do agree 100% with Ann Coulter.

(Disclaimer: I have no association with her, but...)

I have no idea if her parents have 'clean karma' in that they might be engaging in wildly wishful thinking. I don't know.

Lysander, the parents' preferred course of action causes no additional suffering. You don't get bad karma if you don't hurt.

ronald: i guess we know whos ann coulter in disguise!

#13 Atlas Shrugged:

I'm hoping one of the news networks will sneak a video camera in or bribe a nurse to take some videos of her.

Am I right in hearing that Michael has been staying there some nights? If so, it might be hard to sneak in there. The nurses are all scared of him. He threatened Suzanne, Terri's sister at one time when she was visiting and left bruises on her. And the nurses have seen bruises on Terri. He goes in, shuts and locks the door when he's there and sometimes changes her charts.

He will get his one day. What goes around comes around. I'm just praying that everyone who rejected this family's pleas and Terri'a plea to live end by being imprisoned in their bodies in a hospice somewhere. It would be poetic justice if Judge Greer ends like that but....it's just wishful thinking on my part.

Happy Easter!

#88 quark

Michael Schiavo is referred to as having a "commonlaw wife" with whom he has two children. My understanding is that in many states, a commonlaw marriage is as binding as the other kind.

Having two kids is further than he went with Terri, so you could argue that he was more married to #2.

IMO, if there were any pictures of the current family in the media, support for Mr. Schiavo would be much reduced.

99 lottamia--not "extraordinary care?" A feeding-tube that is surgically-implanted is a constant problem, as I know from my late niece's sad experience. They continually get infected, and need constant care.

Terri's care cost upwards of $800,000 a year. Were the parents ready to assume that cost? No, they don't have the wherewithal. Somebody else was going to pay, and the taxpayers have paid plenty in this case, believe me.

Michael Schiavo wasn't convinced it was hopeless, until the doctors and 7-8 years of intensive therapy went nowhere with Terry. It's really sad, the parents couldn't deal with the tragedy any better. It's sadder, that so many ideologues have jumped on this bandwagon, to trumpet their own agendas.

I'm an attorney with lots of experience in handling cases where the hope of recovery expires, before the patient's heartbeat. I have a brother who's an ER doc, who makes life-and-death decisions everyday. I have several relatives who are nurses, who see this sort of thing all the time, only without the hype and cameras. All of my relatives are convinced, this is Terry's time to pass from this vale of tears. None of them are "Death Cultists," to my knowledge. I know I'm not, either. I couldn't pass the test, where you drink the virgin's blood.

Hey! How come my #127 didn't show up?

#116 danrudy

You missed the point...if she even tracks an object for a second that is evidence of higher brain function.

LOL. Are you a doctor? A vet? What? Regardless I wouldn't let you within 10 miles of my ingrown toenail.

BTW, would you agree that if this lady should die as you believe is her wish ...

Yet another asshole who doesn't bother to read.

I have no idea what her wishes are. I only know what has been established in court.

#107 Andy in Agoura Hills

Excuse me? Who was it who said that her parents should be her guardians, not her husband?

#90 danrudy
Lysander,
I am licensed and practicing in florida.

We're partially arguing on different wavelengths, I suspect; I'm not a doctor, I'm a shar... er, attorney ;)

That is not the presumption. In this case it was not an issue anymore because Judge Greer , found as fact, that these were Teri's wishes. However, I seriously doubt she said to her husband,"honey, if I am ever seriously injured and brain dead OR SEVERELY BRAIN DAMAGED, dont let me live that way.

You're most likely right. However, with the judicial determination (not the husband's; he may have started that proceedings, but once it became a judicial determination that those were her wishes, he cannot unilateraly undo them, if he could at all.) precludes going into the various gradiations and shadings of "what ifs".

Dont get me wrong, If I thought she was in a PVS or in pain I would feel differently. I would say dope her up and kill her (which would be more merciful then this starvation thing)
But, I believe she is merely very brain damaged. Someone who has suffered a severe stroke , and thus still capable of some (any ) cognition and therefore should not be treated as if she was a rock or a vegetable but given the benefit of life.

As I said, I don't practice Florida law. However, I have heard that there is a legal presumption that if you did not ask to be fed if you were unable to do so yourself, then you weren't fed. The presumption is no, unless there's a clear yes. Here, there's a judicial determination of no, so there's no way to overcome the agreeing presumption.

#94 jrdroll
Kill all the lawyers, eh? Who'd defend you in court then? ;)

Completely agree, Charles, and thanks for taking a stand on this issue.

Certainly, the conservative mantra of "less government" applies here, probably more than anywhere else. It is nobody else's business what agreement the family comes to, and it is the consistent demonization of the right to die movement by some on the right that make it impossible for Terri to be euthanized quickly, so that now she must starve to death in the hospital.

It's this type of senseless government interference in family life that really irks me. Would you like to bury your dear departed on your land? Can't do it. Biohazard. Want to use a cheap pine box to bury your dead? Nope. Must be an expensive sealed coffin purchased from a funeral home. All legislated. Independent funeral homes? Forget it, 90 percent owned by publicly owned chains.

The media swarm is of course repulsive, but so is our nation's obsession with the case. I would not presume to judge my neighbors if they were living through such tragic times. I'd offer to mow their lawn, maybe, and then go home.

#68 JustDanny - sorry about your Mom. Let me know if I can do anything to help.

#139
Maybe you triggered a filter?

Anyone read my post 110 or follow the link?

Andy....

I've kidnapped #127 and am holding it for ransom....

I'll return it for a copy of Ann Coulter's new book!

I am amazed at the venom and viciousness of the people who want to see this innocent woman dead. I saw the Jacoby article earlier today; perhaps you might be interested in reading what I wrote to him early this afternoon:

You and I have opinions that do not broadly differ, but I would say that I hold mine "dogmatically" if that's how you would put it. Dogmatism in the protection of life is no vice and "openmindedness" in the pursuit of death is no virtue, as someone with which both of us probably agree might have put it. I do not pretend to know Terri's true medical status, nor do I pretend to know whether or not she wants to remain alive. I do know with certainty that ambuiguity about either issue ought always to be met with certainty towards life. Anything else becomes very close to judicially (and societally) approved murder. And I use that word in full knowledge of its inflammatory meaning in this context. We ought never put someone to death without certainty that it is appropriate. From what I know--and even more from what I don't know--about this case, removing her feeding tube is grossly and morally wrong. We are not talking about someone terminally ill; this is merely a profoundly disabled woman. Though it may make us sad, and though I'm sure none of us would choose to be in her circumstances, can you truly say without reservation--remember death is permanent--that you would rather be dead than profoundly disabled? Ask Steven Hawking. Joni Ereckson Tada. Did Christopher Reeve choose death before it took him naturally? All of these people require[d] more care than Terri Schiavo. If she is put to death without having provided a firm, undeniable, written advance directive, what precedent does this set and where will it end?

This is a petty issue being hyped up by the media to be far more than it is.

I personally side with the actual physicians who have examined Terri Schiavo and determined her to be mostly brain dead, and in a persistent vegitative state. Every court that has seen this case has ruled in favor of Michael Schiavo. You have to look at the body of evidence and make a logical judgement about it. It's sad that Michael Schiavo doesn't turn over custody to the parents, because that's what I would do, but what if he did turn over custody and she never got better and the parents finally decide to pull the plug?

My last comment on Easter Eve and this subject is that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the Humane Society and untold other do-gooders and international groups would have a cow if they caught you treating your pet animal this way. Human Rights groups consider the ultimate in people's inhumanity to man, putting panties on the head. They'll never get another penny from me.

#138 octopus 3/26/2005 05:59PM PST

The world would be better off without lawyers making life and death decisions. Especially, by someone who sees the disabled as sink holes for money. Who's next? Quadripelgic's who run outta money?

Bobby Schindler is just saying that Michael denied Terri communion tonight. The priest is now allowed to giver her the last rites. Bastard!

Bobby is saying Michael Schiavo was shopping for funeral hopes in 1993! 1993!

144 Joshua

I read that and found it interesting. It would be a great thing if that sort of thinking would prevail in the Muslim world. I have said before that extremism from one religion only fuels extremism from the others. Everybody needs to curb their dogma if there is any chance for peace.

Globular Cluster, prohibitive funeral costs and lack of options are the reasons why I have decided that I want all my tissues and organs donated to those in need and all the rest of my tissues and organs that can't be used by hospital patients be donated to science, along with my bones. My skeleton will probably end up strung together with plastic wire for somebody's anatomy class, but at least my dead remains will be useful and hey, no body to bury so you can cut way down on funeral costs for my family.

My mom told me she wants the same and she wants anything not usable to just be cremated and her ashes scattered over Lack Michigan.

Just a few additional things that have bothered me about the TS case: Why were range of motion exercises denied? Why, as Atlas Shrugged indicated, were cameras kept out? What would we have seen if they were allowed in? Surely if she had been in a PVS (which does not look to be the case) those cameras would have only proved it. And finally, a lot of stimulation is required for those that have had brain insults. Why was she kept confined to a bed for that time when she could have been mobile and taken outside and on outings?

It sounds much more like cruelty than tender care to me.

#83, FriarsTale: "but this last-minute flurry of activity after 15 years [...] was bound to be futile in the glacial world of Justice."

Ah but I think you're wrong-- if she were a convicted mass-murderer facing the death penalty, then our courts would bend over backwards, jump through hoops, and twist themselves into knots in trying to afford her the benefit of any possible doubt and consider a lack of due process.

INCLUDING giving her a de novo review at the federal level.

As a physician and as a person who has had to deal with a similar situation regarding my mother--who did not have a living will, but who told me clearly what she wanted me to do in such a hopeless situation many times; I would not rush to judgement on the husband. I feel sorry for both the parents and for Michael; and especially for Terri. I might choose differently from Michael; or I might not--I just don't know. I do know that it has been years since my mother died and I still harbor feeling of guilt for following her instructions to let her die.

Whatever the outcome of this terrible situation, I think we are fortunate to live in a society deeply invested in the value of one individual human life. As long as the meaning of one life or one death can generate such intense emotional debate and passion, then our nation remains vibrant and committed to the basic principles on which it was founded.

#150 foreign devil

Oh, that's just f*cking wrong. I can't believe that, for a woman he cares so much about, he'd deny her that in her dying hours. I hope that this haunts him to his dying day and beyond.

foreign devil, of course the parents are saying that stuff. They could probably say that Michael Schiavo is a devil worshipper who eats babies and people would believe it and the news would certainly give them air time to make such a claim. The fact of the matter is that Michael Schiavo and the parents are a bunch of selfish asshats.

#138 You cannot compare an E.R. physician to those who are very closely involved with families. BTW, my brother-in-law a NY county judge as well as my niece, a law professor disagree with you. It seems as the bottom of line is $$$$ Isn't it? All of the physicians I spoke to this week are in disagreement with you. Unless you have actually been bedside when this occurs, please do some "due diligence."

Charles, thanks for your restraint, wisdom, and for doing what you do every day.

It's been 10 years since I worked in acute care as an RN. I went through a dreadful tragedy caring for a family friend whose coronary artery bypass graft surgery went bad wrong. My husband ( a family medicine MD) agreed back then what each of us wanted in the way of heroics/ under what circumstances. (Matching sternal tattoos reading DO NOT PRESS HERE)

There's no good outcome possible here. I just wish Terri could be fed until they sort out all the crap. Feeding is not an heroic measure.

octopus

AtlasShrugged's comments are very representative of those who have been woefully confused by the few seconds of videotape that have played endlessly on TV in the past couple of weeks. They don't understand, those few seconds were culled from a 4 hour tape that shows Terry completely unresponsive to any stimulus. She is not cognizant, she is not conscious, she doesn't communicate, she hasn't done any of this for the past 15 years!

Please do not for one moment demena my knowledge and intense study of this case along with two of my sisters and their husbands all of whom are Doctors in Florida. It is not for you or me to determine whether her past 15 years were a waste. I beleive the mother when she says they have a relationship, when she sayd "she is my life". I beleive they have a real relationship maybe not big or important enough for you but then we are not G-d eh?

I believe that tthe Schiavos had an incompentent lawyer.
Where were the disability rights groups ? Why wouldnt they provider the Schiavos with better legal help. Clearly the Schiavos did not know what they were up against until after the first trial Clearly there were not litigious people as Mara at Hawks pointed out.

And Schiavo got the 1.2 million after her collapse

The last thing that troubles me is the insistence of a cremation and no autopsy. He never allowed xrays to be taken of Terri so any evidence of the alleged abuse could not be substantiated.

#137 Brenda

Michael Schiavo is referred to as having a "commonlaw wife" with whom he has two children. My understanding is that in many states, a commonlaw marriage is as binding as the other kind.

Not in Florida. No common law marriages are recognized in Florida.

without being arogant or stilted I just want to side with those who er in favor of life until a new diagnostic assessment is made and all disciplines are consulted... That's all I have ever wanted... I do have my suspicians but they are not a part of my definitions. I am just a reasonable man who was trained to take part in these types of assessments and I know from experience that alot of times things get missed and overlooked and then nobody wants to admit they messed up and so that's all there is to it..... I understand why Charles wants to stay out of this and deeply respect him for doing so. I also appreciate his allowing us to hash this out once again (I hope rationally) so that some of those in this venue can discuss things calmly and come to to terms and be friends again.

117 Dianna--I agree totally with you, the method being used is barbaric. I wrote a post last night, or the day before, talking about why this barbaric method is being used. One quick shot of the right stuff, and she goes painlessly and quietly into the good night. You wouldn't starve a dog to death, as many have pointed out.

Her parents have been irrational in the extreme, making the written statement that they would stop at nothing to give their daughter a few more months or days of life, including the amputation of limbs if necessary, or heart-surgery. That's crazy, in this case, where the patient's mind and personality have long lost any ability to recover.

I agree with Michael, who has been a rock for his afflicted wife, and is at her bedside even now. Terry needs to be protected from those who wish her an endless limbo. If you were in her position, what would you want? I would want a spouse like Michael, who stuck by me until it was a long-lost cause, and then allowed me a dignified death. It would be nice if it didn't have to be this long, drawn-out starvation/dehydration, but that's due to the pro-lifers and religious-fanatics, too. "NO EUTHANASIA, EVER!" These people disturb me.

151 mich-again

I feel a need to point out that what you said is NOT what that essay is about, only your own reflection on the dynamics of opinions on LGF.

[what mich-again said]: "I have said before that extremism from one religion only fuels extremism from the others. Everybody needs to curb their dogma if there is any chance for peace"

I just want to address the charges of "judicial activism" in the Schiavo case. It seems that the exact opposite is true here.

Like it or not - and I realize many people don't - the Florida & federal courts involved here have been following Florida Law (Statute 765.401 ABSENCE OF ADVANCE DIRECTIVE/The Proxy) (scroll down) faithfully:

PART IV

ABSENCE OF ADVANCE DIRECTIVE

765.401 The proxy.

765.404 Persistent vegetative state.

765.401 The proxy.--

(1) If an incapacitated or developmentally disabled patient has not executed an advance directive, or designated a surrogate to execute an advance directive, or the designated or alternate surrogate is no longer available to make health care decisions, health care decisions may be made for the patient by any of the following individuals, in the following order of priority, if no individual in a prior class is reasonably available, willing, or competent to act:

(a) The judicially appointed guardian of the patient or the guardian advocate of the person having a developmental disability as defined in s. 393.063, who has been authorized to consent to medical treatment, if such guardian has previously been appointed; however, this paragraph shall not be construed to require such appointment before a treatment decision can be made under this subsection;

(b) The patient's spouse;

(c) An adult child of the patient, or if the patient has more than one adult child, a majority of the adult children who are reasonably available for consultation;

(d) A parent of the patient;

(e) The adult sibling of the patient or, if the patient has more than one sibling, a majority of the adult siblings who are reasonably available for consultation;

(f) An adult relative of the patient who has exhibited special care and concern for the patient and who has maintained regular contact with the patient and who is familiar with the patient's activities, health, and religious or moral beliefs; or

(g) A close friend of the patient.

(h) A clinical social worker licensed pursuant to chapter 491, or who is a graduate of a court-approved guardianship program. Such a proxy must be selected by the provider's bioethics committee and must not be employed by the provider. If the provider does not have a bioethics committee, then such a proxy may be chosen through an arrangement with the bioethics committee of another provider. The proxy will be notified that, upon request, the provider shall make available a second physician, not involved in the patient's care to assist the proxy in evaluating treatment. Decisions to withhold or withdraw life-prolonging procedures will be reviewed by the facility's bioethics committee. Documentation of efforts to locate proxies from prior classes must be recorded in the patient record.

The law doesn't speak to the decision in question, but gives authority and priority to the decision maker. (b) "spouse" outranks (d) "parent" in order of priority of the decision maker. That obviously is not a perfect result for every case, but neither would it be if "parent" always trumped "spouse," as often times parents and children have bad relationships, and in that case, then a caring spouse would be rendered helpless - and no one wants that.

There is no "judicial activism" here. Rather, there is a controlling law which values certain relationships over the various content of the possible decisions involving the patient. So in this case, coming up with an alternate result and granting proxy authority to the parents, because their choices are preferable (or for whatever reason), would be "judicial activism" - in this instance. One reason why that term doesn't mean much anymore.

caryn and everyone:

My thinking is that Michael must have put her into this situation and the broken bones that have shown up on xrays and the bruises the nurses have seen may be from his abuse, but he's smart enough to know that an autopsy would reveal that. After all, where is a woman who can't get out of bed going to get broken bones and ribs? Unless someone is abusing her?

But if he cremates her then there won't be a chance to autopsy her.

I know G*d knows where every little sparrow is, so I'm hoping there's going to be a reckoning for Michael and we don't have to sweat it. It will happen. Just have a belief in that and wait for it.

#150 foreign devil

Bobby is saying Michael Schiavo was shopping for funeral hopes in 1993! 1993!

Hopes? Homes? Plots? Graves?

WHAT AN EVIL MONSTER! OMYFUCKING GOD I CAN'T BELIEVE SOMEONE WAS SHOPPING FOR CEMETARY PLOTS! MY WIFE AND I BOUGHT OUR PLOTS SEVERAL YEARS AGO AND WE WERE ONLY MARRIED FOR LIKE 5 YEARS!

GRRRR! SHE'S AN EVIL BITCH! ARRRGH!

Does the dumbassitude never end?

#150 foreign devil

Of course he denied her communion. She would have had to swallow the communion wafer, which would have completely undermined his position...

I have no idea what Terri's wishes were, but if Gagdad Bob is ever in that condition, any one of you has my express written permission to TOBASH (Take Out Back And Shoot in Head).

Like it or not - and I realize many people don't - the Florida & federal courts involved here have been following Florida Law (Statute 765.401 ABSENCE OF ADVANCE DIRECTIVE/The Proxy) (scroll down) faithfully:

Then the law is wrong.

I wouldn't want to be for 15 years where Terri's bin. But I wouldn't want someone else making that decision for me unless I had given them that right via a legal document.

And I certainly wouldn't want some judge to be the arbiter of my fate in the absence of such a document.

The "facts" accepted by the court just don't pass the smell test with me.

Under the circumstances, choose life.

I do think that this will have a positive impact in terms of providing backbone in the upcoming imbroglio over judicial appointments.

Charles, I have great respect for you, although I think you're mistaken on this issue. I am sorry you've received nasty E-mails about this. You're not the only one: I received one from a LGFer calling me a "jihadi" and "an elitist." (The latter, apparently, because I don't care if 99.9% of American are OK with what's being done to this woman - I don't believe basic mortality is dictated by opinion polls).

I wrote a guest post on DL trying to explain why I thought this matter is so important to many of us and why I can't help feeling dismayed by the reactions of some of my fellow lizards regarding this awful case.

As to the "jihadi" charge, well, there is one significant difference. Jihadis don't try to save lives, unless it's the life of the Arafish. Terri S. and that bag of offal are hardly comparable.

For the record, I am completely opposed to any hare-brained schemes to Storm the Hospice. Any acts of violence to save Terri are would be as completely stupid and counter-productive as the bombing of abortion clinics by "pro-life" advocates. We live in a nation of laws and the law should be changed. At this point, I simply want the poor woman's torture to end - which means I hope she dies soon.

I will never stop believing that this was a hellish and barbaric thing to do to a helpless person and unfit of a great nation.

#138 octopus

Evening, Counselor ;)

#134 Sean

Lysander, the parents' preferred course of action causes no additional suffering. You don't get bad karma if you don't hurt.

It presupposes that the parents are not simply seeing what they wish to, and that Terri would have the wish to spend more than 15 years like this. Take either in the alternate - that he actually, really, did not want to continue living like this, and/or that her parents are so grief-stricken that they refuse to see anything other than what they will - what then?

For all I know, she could be trapped in there, and really want to die. Or, she could have already passed on, but wish for her body to continue until it completely breaks down. Either is as plausable as the other.

Lysander

#68 JustDanny

If Terri Schiavo was my sister or my child or my mother, I would have removed her husband from the picture already.

Yep. If it was my daughter, my son-in-law would not be among the living. (My husband had a little talk with my son-in-law at the wedding in that if he EVER did anything to hurt his lil girl, my husband would kill him. He wasn't kidding.)

And I would like there to be an autopsy.

Justdanny

Sorry to hear about your mum. My cousin's husband died just a few days ago of pancreatic cancer at about the same age as your mother. When he was diagnosed over 8 months ago, they noted metastases to the liver and said he would last 6 weeks to 2 months. Until last Thursday, he walked a couple of miles every day with his wife. He had brief chemotherapy and discontinued it when it didn't appear to be causing any improvement. He was at home until the day before he died. So...all this to say, enjoy your mom in the time you have left with her and, above all, DOCTORS ARE FREQUENTLY WRONG IN THEIR PESSIMISTIC PROGNOSES.

Good Lord,

I've been in the "let Terri's parents have her" camp" but I've also been appalled at the pure emotional rage coming from some on "my" side.

And I've had to go to a couple of different forums to try and talk sense to the total idiocy of the idea of "storming the hospice!" Way to GO and deliver up to Kosskiddies and the like everything they say about non-leftists being "fascists."

And there's those calling Jeb Bush a "wimp" because HE wouldn't "storm the hospice." What, we want another Elian Episode?

The LAW, people, even if the LAW is flawed you don't correct it with MOB ACTION. This is where cold deliberation MUST rule over hot emotion.

I know Charles is way too busy to answer his email, but I hope he at least read mine because there is JUST NO EXCUSE for his being attacked and I feel sorry that he has been.

#169 Gaghdad Bob

Whatever you say, Ol' Yeller.

I've tried to stay out of this for the most part, preferring to quietly pray for Terri, her family, the courts, all all parties involved, but it occurred to me as I was reading through the posts here and on other threads, that the one person I had not been praying for was Michael Schiavo.

I have not prayed that the LORD would soften his heart, and open his eyes. He's got tunnel vision and is hell bent on ending her life. He thinks he's doing what Terri would want. At least a third of the people polled don't believe him. Be for all the legal maneuvering and desparate attempts to save Terri in the courts, maybe it's time to pray for Michael (if you haven't already been praying) that he'll have an epiphany, a change or softening of his heart, that he'll allow people to try to give her water. It's been reported that she can swallow; so how is giving her a glass of water artificially keeping her alive? If she doesn't want to drink, then she won't.

Anyway, I don't want to argue with anyone. I know everyone's passions are enflamed already. That's my $.02 worth.

Lysander,

I asked my wife (an attorney) who is licensed in florida. (this is not her field. but she thinks you are correct regarding the legal presumption here in florida.

Thom,

I am not sure I would want to get within 10 miles of your smelly feet.

Yet another asshole who doesn't bother to read.

I have no idea what her wishes are. I only know what has been established in court.

Listen moron, It has been established, as fact, that those were her wishes...thats part of what the dispute was and what was asked to be reviewed...
So again I ask, if it was her wish as the court has established, to not be allowed to live under these circumstances wouldnt it be more merciful to simply take her out back and shoot her rather then let her linger for two weeks . I would let my terminally ill or suffering dogs linger, starving for two weeks.
Or am I to belive you are one of the geniuses who believe what you read that starving her to death is a merciful and painless way for someone to die becasue she is the intellectual equivalent of a potted plant.

160 Atlas Shrugged- I don't mean to demean anyone, though I have been angrily slandered myself by your compadres on this forum. You have family members in the medical profession, and so do I, and they don't agree. Not a surprise. This case doesn't follow any kind of partisan lines, really.

I don't want to fight with you, or anyone. I've said my bit. I've said before, I've said my bit. I got drawn into this thread, by Charles' disclosure that he's received the same kind of unfair attacks that I have seen running rampant on this and other forums.

It's time to let her body go, where her mind and personality went many years ago. Wherever that is.

christheprofessor, she can't swallow a Communion wafer. She would more than likely choke on it. That's why she is fed through tubes, because she is unable to chew and eat food.

Charles:

I quite agree with you... When last I discussed the issue here, I was induilted because I am on the husband's side of the issue...

The loons on the left and the right are about of the same caliber... They can't accept disagreement...

A real pity!

octopus

Terri's care cost upwards of $800,000 a year. Were the parents ready to assume that cost? No, they don't have the wherewithal. Somebody else was going to pay, and the taxpayers have paid plenty in this case, believe me.

if you going to ask me 'who is to pay for Terri'? I will tell you right now DON'T GO THERE. The healthcare system is so corrupt and twisted by the political strong arming of special interest groups, it's enough to make you sick. Every illegal alien and their mother, cousin, brother, sister crosses our borders for free medical care. Don't believe me, look at all those Texas hospitals near the Mexican border, they are drowning in caring for the illegals. And everyone outside this country knows to come here on a tourist visa and get free medical everything from flu shots to open heart surgery (we all have witnessed these abuses). So if my tax money is going to pay for anything let it be Terri and if you dont like it....CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

#117, #163

The method may seem barbaric (and I don't necessarily disagree) but Terri Schiavo is hardly the first person whose feeding tube has been removed in these circumstances. Families and physicians have been making such a choice for years. Physicians have made a point of telling families that this is a humane way to let their loved one go. Families have accepted this advice. Doctors do this not because they are evil or don't value human life, or because they WANT to cause more suffering, you know. They really do believe that it is a painless way to die when there is no cognitive function.

If, by the Schiavo case, we revisit this assumption and say that removing a feeding tube is NOT a good method, then that leaves few options for those who do not wish to live under such circumstances; and fewer for their families.

Personally, I think we should leave it to them to decide.

OT--OMG, the Arizona-Ill basketball game! What a comeback!

Tied at 80, after the Illini were down 15 a couple of minutes ago. This is good.

Let us consider the facts:
M. Schiavo : Terri die.
Schindlers: Terri live.

Whose side are you on?

@136 Brenda

You cannot in any state have two wives. The second woman is not his common law wife, she's his live in. Until Terri passes this is the status, unless there are now states that allow bigamy, or concubines. :)

If they tried to give Terri Schiavo communion, she could very likely choke on the wafer and the wine poured in her mouth could very well end up swirling around in her lungs and give her a fatal case of pneumonia.

I find it hard to comment as the religious law by which I live defines the actions as "murder". Thus, trying to comment based on a law which I do not follow is very difficult. Removing the feeding tube is the same as injecting the comatose patient with cyanide as far as I am concerned. If you want to compare the situation to removing a patient from a respirator, then one could be allowed to not put the patient on the ventilator to begin with but it would be forbidden to remove it once it had been started.

Of course I have heard the arguments that Michael Schaivo stopped all treatment and began working to arrange his wife's death as soon as he got the money from the malpractice suit. If true, then the insurance company should sue to get the money back.

If the statement that in pledged in court to use the money for her treatment is true, then he should be prosecuted for lying under oath (perjury).

If the statement of the nurses (who did not originally know of each other) that he injected her with insulin is true, then he should be prosecuted for attempted murder. If the nurses were indeed fired when they attempted to tell the police of these actions, then the hospice can be sued for negligence.

It appears from the statements put forward by both sides that the entire argument is based on the fact that Judge Greer will never admit that he might have been wrong 15 years ago and that the other courts cannot admit this either. This shows a major problem.

In any case, it appears that the same people who are working to ban the death penalty for murderers are working to let this woman be starved to death. At the least, they should be working to have her killed by lethal injection.

Charles, I tend to agree with you and Jacoby on this matter with a couple of caveats.

1. The politics of the case aside, emotions have largely replaced rationality in the way the media has driven this tragic story.

2.In a medical situation, it is always better to error on the side of life if the alternative closes out all chance for remediation. This has become a slow rolling state execution, where the condemned is not a criminal.

Having been involved with EMS during it's formative years, what is happening here goes against all I have learned and taught. I have also learned as a result of that experieance, and in other endeavors that life so precious in one circumstance can be cheap indeed in another.

#110 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar

"I'm rethinking my view that moderate Muslims have been marginalized and timid to the point of uselessness... "

And then you post excerpts detailing how militant islamists were used to help find/kill/capture active islamists.

What we need is muslims who do not support islamic extremists, gathering in the streets of their cities by the hundreds of thousand or millions, in a very public very loud very definitive protest against islamists.

The problem with islam, concerning this issue of moderate muslim / radical muslim, is that non islamic extremist muslims will not speak out againtst any muslim, good or bad.

The core of the entire problem is that the majority of muslims worldwide support the terrorist activities of extremists, in theory.

Islam is the cancer generator eating at the minds of 800 million people.

Try as folks might to make this an "interpretation" problem or a political problem, that is not what it is. It is a problem caused by a inhuman belief system which when practiced even in its mildest form, results in a crushing blow to an individuals personal freedom.

Neanderthals died off somehow or were swallowed up by modern humans. All these bizarre anti life appendages humankind bring with them from the days of cavemen and unchallenged ignorance, must eventually be abandoned for humankind to continue to evolve and grow toward some better thing than it is.

Islam is one the bizarro throw back archaic ativistic sweltering sores on the face of humanity, that must go away or be healed.

All this talk of reformation or purposefullness of moderate muslims is just a leaky side show tent with no ticket taker and no attractions. Just a slight relief from the rain of truth.

#189 bbcrackmonkey,

Um, dude, she's dying. I don't think that is a major concern.

Target Practice:

Yes....regardless of whether Michael's case has merits or not, or the Schindler's have merits or not, refusing to let her take communion and have the sacrament or the last rites IS WRONG! She's Catholic!

Also he's having her cremated immediately and then buried IN HIS FAMILY PLOT--not with her family.

Mercifully, she'll be with G*d then and won't care where her body is resting but the parents won't be able to visit their daughter's grave in the future if it's in Michael's family plot. It makes me laugh to think of Michael having a 'family plot' when, according to how things were, he didn't have to pennies to rub together when he met and married her at 21. He couldn't keep a job for more than a couple of months.

But since he got the first settlement money, it's been all Michael all the time and if the interview I heard tonight with Bobby Schindler is right, the interviewer asked Bobby if it was true that Michael Schiavo was shopping for funeral arrangements in 1991 and he said yes!

Draw your own conclusions.

#181:

I have spoken with a lot of doctors and all agree that she is in an hopeless state...

And let us not forget: you can put uip videos where dogs sing... So I am sure you can make some where it seems that patients with dead corteces seem to communicate!

She has been dead for 15 years... Time to let her go!

#149 Andy in Agoura Hills
You realize that cuts both ways?

#165 SoCalJustice
Thank you :)

#169 Gagdad Bob

I have no idea what Terri's wishes were, but if Gagdad Bob is ever in that condition, any one of you has my express written permission to TOBASH (Take Out Back And Shoot in Head).

#170 Andy in Agoura Hills

Like it or not - and I realize many people don't - the Florida & federal courts involved here have been following Florida Law (Statute 765.401 ABSENCE OF ADVANCE DIRECTIVE/The Proxy) (scroll down) faithfully:

Then the law is wrong.

I left these two back to back - Andy, most people feel as Bob, which is why the law is as it is.

As for priority - who would you rather have as the default, absent any indication otherwise: your spouse, whom you are presumed to be in a loving and committed relationship with, living with, and spending (some) time with, discussing serious issues, or your parents, whom at best you haven't lived with since the marriage?

bbcrackmonkey

Some of the caregivers testified that she could swallow (e.g., putting orange juice in a wash cloth). That's what I was referring to. I realize that the Schiavos want us to believe that she can't -- and I fully admit that I have no idea whether she can or cannot. But if they were to put the wafer there and she succesfully swallowed it, that would put the lie to Schiavo's position. That's all I meant.

"Why did Mr. Schiavo present evidence regarding the cost of a long-term life care plan during that civil case when he knew that his wife wouldn't want to live under those circumstances?"

Hmmmmm....Jeb Bush made an interesting point, didn't he?

#190:

well depends... According to Jewish law, what is unnatural is to put the tube in the first place... And there are no objection to removing it...

For other religions, I don't know...

There's so much disinformation being cast by so many it is hard to make an _informed_ decision on this. Just for example the issue of her movements. One side says it is an example of her cognizance, the other says that people in a PVS will make random movements and don't want the videos because it gives a false impression. I've heard people with impressive credentials on both sides of the issue.

I do know I am uncomfortable with Congress making a law for one person. Injustices happen all the time. Congress can't, in fairness, intervene in every case. So what then? Should Congress have asked for a Federal trial of OJ Simpson who got away with murder? See the problem there?

There are no winners in this event. My prayer was for Michael Schiavo, if he truly believes his wife to be lost, to give her over to her parents. I found his flip-flop on her wishes to be disturbing in the extreme. I would not doubt that he is worried that she might wake up and call him out for the abuser I think he is.

What this event does is call attention to the fact that we all need living wills that are recognized by the court. That in cases where family members are in disagreement that such disagreement are given, after the first Court rules, a De Novo review...as are Death Sentences. And that when families are in agreement that they need to be left alone.

I pray that people will realize that Court's make mistakes. And for that very reason the taking of a life by the Government for punishment should be forbidden. There are too many errors that have been exposed; and if you believe that this case is an error of the judiciary why wouldn't you believe they make errors elsewhere?

Finally, I hope that Randall Terry will be cast into the dustbin of history. He has made this a circus. I agree with much of what he says, but he's a bomb thrower and has polarized this issue for the detriment of all.
What ever happens to Terri Schiavo, she will in the end go to a better place. A place ruled by Truth, by the one true Judge. So I pray, at the last, for her:

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

There seems to a lack of justice and mercy in this world, may we find it in the next.

Check out FOX NOW. Some woman saying Michael fits the profile of a wife abuser. WOW!

Just for the record--Communion and Last Rites are completely different rituals. Last Rights (Extreme Unction) does not involve having Communion and can be done with someone in a coma and unresponsive.

I find thie immediate condemnation of the husband to be sort of an oddity, but really in line with the climate of today. Why can't we, with the same leap, assume he is really doing what he believes she would want and is trying to protect her dignity. The parents remind me of the ones in movies who keep their dead child's room intact and the dead child in the bed so they do not have to deal with the reality of the death. I would not want to be in their position. After 15 years of this, their lives are all but destroyed. It would not be as difficult if she were not laying there with eyes open. I do not find it odd that he would be funeral shopping back then. I'm sure the bets were on that she would not live very long. Being prepared is not the same as rushing someone off. And after 15 years, this has not been a rush.

What makes everyone, including me, uncomfortable is the idea of starving to death. There is the "what if she CAN feel it" creepiness that comes with it. Now if they give her a good hit of morphine over this period of time, then there is the admission that maybe she CAN feel it and the crowd goes even more wild than ever. If we give her a pentathol injection to the heart as you would a poodle, that is euthanasia and the crowd goes wild. There is just not a happy ending here, but I hope those still living can find some peace.

christheprofessor, if you managed to get her to swallow a communion wafer without choking her, I wouldn't say it undermines anything, I'd say you got pretty lucky. Try it 20 times and see how many times you are successful.

Of course, the wafer would probably have to be pre-mulched before being given to Terri, which would increase the liklihood of some of the mush getting in her lungs and giving her pneumonia.

This is how my grandpa died. He kept on getting the food in his lungs when he ate, and it gave him pneumonia, and he was conscious and could speak to you.

lysander--Whatever you do, never admit online that you are a practicing attorney. I know, we can't help ourselves, and we must be punished. Count the number of anti-lawyer posts in this thread, when it's all said and done, and I'd wager there are more than 15 before Charles closes the door.

I'm really an abortionist, with a medical degree from Mexico State. Did I say I was a no-good lawyer? I was kee-e-e-eding!

Terri Schiavo's parents are ready and willing to take care of her. Michael Schiavo is not. Her intent was not clear. Choose life. Michael Schiavo could be out of this but he is intent on seeing her die. That is wierd. I've never seen government so anxious to kill someone. It is depraved.

Free Mumia.

#180 danrudy

Lysander,

I asked my wife (an attorney) who is licensed in florida. (this is not her field. but she thinks you are correct regarding the legal presumption here in florida.

The last time I checked Virginia law, it was the same, if not very similar (and believe me, with all of this going, everyone I know who does estate planning is updating everything, even the updated stuff!)

I haven't said where I fall in this because I feel my personal view is immaterial. Rather than restate it, I'll just quote it:

#177 Darleen

The LAW, people, even if the LAW is flawed you don't correct it with MOB ACTION. This is where cold deliberation MUST rule over hot emotion.

So Mote it Be.

Lysander

#200 Quilly Mammoth:

Well said. This is an appalling situation for all involved. I'm afraid there are no right answers.

I pray to G-d I'm never in that position.

Rayra, it's not a joke, its the truth. The people bringing her glasses of water and sandwiches and getting arrested for it are just as likely to accidentally kill her as to prolong her life.

bbcrackmonkey

Sorry to hear about your grandfather...

I don't know about all this, I can see reasonable points on both sides of the argument. I've found myself on both sides of the issue, thinking about it.

I hate that reasonable people (and we are all reasonable people here) can get so heated and downright vicious with each other. But hey, life is like that sometimes.

It's sad that Michael Schiavo doesn't turn over custody to the parents, because that's what I would do,

This is something I never quite understood as well. From an emotional standpoint, I can understand the parents willing to do whatever it takes to keep her alive a lot better than I can understand the husband doing whatever it takes to press for her death. Why would you endure a legal battle for 15 years and battle your in-laws to fight for something like that? Certainly the idea that he needs her to die in order to marry again is ridiculous - he can just get a divorce. Either he's just one stubborn bastard or he really does believe she herself would have wanted to die. I suppose there's also the money issue, although I'm not sure how that plays into it.

I can't say I condemn him. And I think he's certainly got the better legal case. But I'm pretty sure I would have handled it differently. Sign over the rights to the parents. Get a divorce. Move on with your life. If the parents want to cling to non-existent hope, let them.

197 christheprofessor
Exactly!
There are many reasons for tube-feeding and not being able to swallow is only one of them. A VERY common reason, especially for brain injured people who take a long time to feed, is the convenience of the nursing staff. With the perennial shortage of nurses and aides in a nursing home and a patient who is getting an unknown level of pleasure and unknown quantity of food, it's just plain easier to tube-feed. As has been said here and elsewhere, there nothing of extraordinary measures in food and water. Why has by-mouth administration not been permitted?

#192 justdanny 3/26/2005 06:21PM PST
#110 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar

"I'm rethinking my view that moderate Muslims have been marginalized and timid to the point of uselessness... "

And then you post excerpts detailing how militant islamists were used to help find/kill/capture active islamists.

You mistook the context of what I said. Who was it who flipped those militants, eh? It was representatives of moderate Islam a creed that supposed doesn't exist. But it was pretty effective for a nonexistant creed.

Whew --

I've been a lone voice advocating moderation in LGF for quite a while.

The battle against Islamist aggression is the crisis of the century -- it has nothing to do with privatizing Social Security or other bad ideas that have failed elsewhere.

(Thatcher introduced it to the UK -- it's been a rousing failure and will soon be repealed.)

Let's look at the world as it is, not as ideologues.

PS: Michael Schiavo's opposition to Terri taking Communion is proof positive that he is a scumbag.

#201 foreign devil

Check out FOX NOW. Some woman saying Michael fits the profile of a wife abuser. WOW!

That, and $1 gets me a cup of coffee. Now, have acutal, verifiable, PROOF, and we're going somewhere.

#205 octopus
LOL!

I make lots of admissions in my profile.... with a nod towards "Bring it on" at the end ;) I just had a nice but annoying little case settle this past week, so I'm feeling good (and finally back posting here! LOL)

Lysander

christtheprofessor, my grandpa died a long time ago and he lived a very very full life. He was over 90 years old when he died. He was a great guy but it wasn't exactly shocking news that he had finally passed away. When he died, the only thing I could remember was the funny stuff, like how the second to last time I saw him, I found one of his hand-written notes to himself about buying Viagra.

It's very simple. Add it up, yourself.

#1. We don't know what Terri's wishes were.
(Hearsay evidence from her husband.)
(Hearsay evidence from her family & friends.)

#2. We are putting her to death.

Err, typo city. Meant to type "supposedly doesn't exist" As in:

Who was it who flipped those militants, eh? It was representatives of moderate Islam a creed that supposedly doesn't exist. But it was pretty effective for a nonexistant creed.

OT:

Sorry but thought you might want to know this; I had an email from Iran about the clashes after the soccer win over Japan. My friend said that nothing much had happened and it wasn't the "big one". Just in case anyone was holding their breath (I was). :)

Something to keep in mind about LGF.

Many of us here, including Charles, are "9-11 conservatives." We are not by habit or upbringing part of the conservative political culture as you would see it at, say, Free Republic.

I actually came over before 9-11, but not by much, and for reasons that are closely related to the current war: the increasing power and naked totalitarianism of the political left in the academic community.
I had been a Democrat all my life. My great-uncle was a renowned Democratic politician and I have held elective office myself as a Democrat.

People like me have come over to the right for a simple reason: This country is locked in a world war, a death struggle with the forces of medieval barbarism, and the political left has gone over to the enemy.

We did not arrive here with a lot of conservative/religious right baggage. George W. Bush is not our model. He is not someone many of us find particularly appealing. His origins and values are alien to some.

But this pales into insignificance when laid beside his leadership in the current struggle. He has literally been our only hope since September 11, 2001. I believe, frankly, that he has exceeded all expectations, even those of his own party. He has risen heroically to the occasion.

In the Schiavo case, we are painfully reminded that our movement is a genuine coalition of diverse forces, something our enemies only claim to be.
It was inevitable that there would be disagreements. This case has found the fracture points in all areas of society.
Even within the political right, there is no comfortable divide between the differing opinions on the Schiavo case.

I am a disciple of the Enlightenment; a scientific rationalist, an agnostic, but I find myself agreeing with many Evangelicals and even with Ralph Nader on this issue.
Friends and others with largely similar views in many areas disagree with me on this issue.

The left can do as it likes and scream eptithets and vile insults till the Satan himself cannot bear it. We expect no more from them, it is not contrary to their real priniciples to do so.
It is contrary to ours.
They talk about respect for diverse opinions, but practice totalitarian conformity.

Our commitment to the free and civil exchange of views is fundamental, our other positions flow from it naturally. Without it, our principles and our struggle are meaningless.

Express your opinions, show your passion, but please keep it civil and rational.

#193 IF

Very observant, good response. Doesn't matter anymore....

Can't wait to meet you at Havoc's party.

I personally think that she should be allowed to live and that the family was out-lawyered (and a combination of many other bad turns of events).

I still don't understand why her 'husband' couldn't give his 'wife' over to her parents.

223 foreign devil

I know we were all hoping..but none of us are suprsied...

#221 rtheyserius
You forgot to menton that there's a judicial determination of what her wishes were, from the 1990s.

Lysander

What we are seeing here is the old fashioned law being applied to the contemporary idea of "starter marriages", multiple marriages, and the breakdown of the American family. MARRIAGE AS AN ABSOLUTE -Bottom line is when these laws were written, marriage was a more sacred institution and husbands and wives, by and large, stayed together for life.

According to Terri's best friends Terri was most unhappy in the marriage. She was planning to leave, Michael was a control freak that monitored Terri's every move. She had to come straight home from work everyday. Michael would go ballistic (!) iF Terri was ever late. He would even check the odometer on the car to check for mileage to see if Terri went anywhere other than she was supposed to go. Invariably she and her friends would never take Terri's car, for fear of enraging Michael Schiavo. Insofar as the alleged abuse, her friend said she saw a good many black and blue marks but never thought anything of it so I will not speculate further.
Yes this is all heresay but it speaks to a much larger break in the infrastructure of American Society. The continuous chipping away at the solemnity and sanctity of marriage by the left(Bill "I did not have sex with that woman" Clinton, same sex marriage, illegitimate children, single parent households, remember how Dan Quale was excoriated for suggesting that Murphy Brown was "celebrating" fatherless parenthood?, the sad results of the continuing culture war) have brought us to this disastrous fork in the road.

That being said, the bottom line is Michael Schiavo SHOULD NOT BE MAKING THIS DECISION. He does not have Terri's best interest at heart, not for one second. The marriage was broken. Terri was leaving this control freak and taking an apartment with her friend. Therein lies the problem. This man would not be Terri's husband had this happened one or two years later.
Today, multiple marriages are commonplace, so the ramifications of implicit spousal authority are spectacular and terrifying as this case so painfully shows. This being the law of the land (the sanctity and purity of marriage), the courts have no choice. Truth be told, I would not want my husband making this decision.

In cases such as these where there is no living will and there are opposing family members, we must come down on the side of life. Most people think it's a horrible existance. Who died and made them G-d? I for one WOULD WANT TO LIVE. No one loves me enough to fight for me like that, what a love! That LOVE IS IN ITSELF something to live for. to me living in the bed sounds like heaven, how about that?

I call it murder.

My feelings have been torn on this too. I don't know what to believe. My gut tells me a wrong is being done, but I don't hate the people here or on DL who think differently. I have had personal experiences with experts, which leave me wanting. I respect the rule of law, but I know it often seems unfair. If it's any consolation, other sites have had "passionate" arguments amongst posters, causing much distress, we aren't unusual in this respect. I feel very badly about the whole matter, and have seen sides of people I wish I hadn't (including myself).

Part of the reason I like LGF is the many posters here, who probably before 9-11 wouldn't have agreed on anything. This situation reminds me of that fact.

Charles, I feel awful for you, and everyone else whose integrity has been visciously attacked. It does no one any good.

P.S. Whoever threw the Sears car battery through my monitor, it's on the sidewalk in front of my apt...

Totally, totally OT

I saw a label today that immediately made me think of lgf's rotating titles.

Doesn't

lgf : flaky wafer is edible

just look right?

To be honest, I don't know who to believe at this point. To me, it seems like both sides have their own reasons for lying and making up false accusations about the other. Here's how I see it...

On the one hand, Mike Schiavo seems like a caring husband who's been there for his wife to the last and is only trying to fulfill her last wishes to the end. At the same time, watching him on TV interviews reminds me too much of the "pained" Scott Peterson up til the point that the fingers started getting pointed at him. As to the accusations of abuse and such, I'm still out until I see some physical evidence.

On the other hand, her folks seem like they have only her best interests at heart, something I'd hope for from parents. But, at the same time, they seem to strike me as parents who're too unwilling to let their daughter go and are allowing their love to blind them to any truths that come out. It appears as though they are hoping so hard that she'll make a sudden recovery, that they're seeing signs of life and conscious where there are none.

I just honestly don't know which side to agree with.

224 Shiplord Kirel

Amen! pretty much the same thing i've been trying to say

Look --

Terri Schavo has been with the angels ever since her brain flatlined.

Nobody's home!

(By the way, her name is Italian, and it's pronounced skee-Avo. And Pinochet is pinoCHET, not pinoSHAY.)

#227

I cannot but think that even if she had made crystal clear her desire to die, the parents would be doing the same to try to reconnect her...

There is something ghoulish in their behavior IMO... I can understand needing more time to come to term with death, but they have had 15 years... At one point enough is enough...

Re: Michael Schaivo. I don't expect that a man with a disabled wife live like a monk forever, but then he should have walked away and started his life anew. Remember, Terri was not in pain and she had loving parents willing to care for her. So why stay married and insist on her death?

There is no evidence that Michael was a crap husband from the get-go. Michael and Terri lived with the Schaivos when they first moved to Florida, and Michael lived with his in-laws after her disablement. Apparently they all got along like a house on fire.

What changed everything was the money awarded to Michael from the malpractice suit. Her parents say that Michael wasn't using it for Terri's care and rehab; he says the Schaivos demanded money from the settlement that they were not legally entitled to.

Having been involved once in a nasty quarrel with extended relatives regarding a disputed will, I can see how this situation soon got uglier than hell. I am willing to believe that the Schaivos may have thought they should get some money from Michael. My sister and her ex-husband once lived with my parents for a while when he lost his job, and there was a lot of low-grade rumbling from my parents on the amount of food my then brother-in-law consumed without chipping in for groceries. They didn't live with my parents for long, so the situation never got too bad. But, in a situation where a tragedy befalls a family and a large amount of money enters the mix - watch out!

Suddenly, Michael and other members of his family start recalling that Terri said she wouldn't want to live like this. It's the timing of Michael's recollections I find so suspicious.

At this point, it's not about the benjamins anymore. It's about Michael insisting that, come hell or high water, Terri is going to die, g-ddammit, and f*ck the Schindlers.

184 Atlas Shrugged--I was wrong to bring the money-part into this discussion. Sorry! This is not about money, and money is really meaningless when it comes to deciding such important cases.

Not sure where I was going with that line of thought, but that's what happens when you try to watch basketball, and argue vital issues at the same time.

Still...what a comeback! Illini win in OT. I'm a U. of Michigan alum, but I'm rooting for MSU, and the rest of the Big Ten survivors to keep on keepin' on.

The waste in our medical system, the high cost of health-care, is a subject for another night.

#143 IrishJean

Thank you.

#176 caryn

I'm the only person living here with Mom and I'm her primary care giver. She has been sick for 5 months now and I have spent every hour of every day doing nothing but taking care of her. I have been listening more intently to every word she speaks. Watching her face when she watches tv or talks on the phone. I study, without being annoying, every thing about her. I wont like this world when she is gone.

#225 former demo

I personally think that she should be allowed to live and that the family was out-lawyered (and a combination of many other bad turns of events).

Getting out-lawyered happens all the time. I know of a case where a lawyer with 30 years in practice missed a filing deadline on a multi-million dollar property lawsuit, and now there's a risk of default judgment. (I am not involved in that case ;) ) "Ineffective assistance of counsel" is something built into the criminal code, not in civil litigation. Otherwise, there'd be more lawsuits about what effective assistance would be. Now, fully going into shark mode, I say lets go for it - I could always use more cases with thousands of dollars for retainer fees >:)

The husband is the key factor here, and he puzzles me.

If we assume the best: He did everything in the first year for her when he still believed that she could recover. When it became painfully clear that she would remain in a PVS forever, he remembered her will and faithfully tries to fulfil it, against the hostile attitude of so many.

We can assume the worst, too. But a few things don't add up, in either case. He has been offered a million dollars if he just hands over custody to the parents and walks away. He could divorce and live happily ever after with his current partner. Even if he did something bad to Terri, she won't be able to tell. She won't wake up.

But he doesn't. He risks Terri's death, an autopsy, the fury of an irate crowd, maybe the parents pushing for reopening a murder case... anyway, his legal trouble won't end with Terri's death.

He could back out easily, couldn't he?

#227 -- You forgot to menton that there's a judicial determination of what her wishes were, from the 1990s.

Like that changes the facts. It's a "he said" "she said" case.

And now she's being put to death. Slowly.

She'd be better off if she'd been a serial killer. At least she would have had a trial by jury and multiple appeals.

This woman is innocent. It is an outrage and an atrocity.

#192 justdanny

And yet, people tend to change their beliefs little by little, not all at once. And in verious times and places, groups of people have invented moderate versions of Islam. For instance I have read articles about moderate Muslims in Asia resenting the growing influence of Arabs who's version of Islam is intolerent and provocative...

Bosnians are another example.

It's true that many people have said that there can be no Moderate Islam. Peace activist Ali Salem for instance. But perhaps he was too pesimistic.

I really think that in this case the husband is a fool, because it seems the evidence is in line that he badly mistreated Terri while she was his wife, enough that she would develop bulemia. I also think her parents are fools for making this a media circus and for making up all kinds of stories in order to support their opinions. The husband is not making off like a bandit with any settlement money either, almost all of it has gone into long-term care of Terri. Her parents are motivated by love of their daughter but they only see what they want to see, and are unable to sit back and look at the case with the kind of cold, rational logic that is often needed in such cases.

225 former demo

I still don't understand why her 'husband' couldn't give his 'wife' over to her parents.

At my house we think it's because he would be told by the court to provide financial support, since he received the settlement for her care.

#199 Pitiricus

Actually, you are mistaken. The religious law that I was referring to is Jewish law. The law is that the measures once instituted cannot be withdrawn. In fact the law regarding a goseis, someone moments away from death, are such that people cannot take an action that would bring the death closer. In this case, removing the feeding tube was the forbidden act. However, since the secular law rules in this case, as much as I would disagree with it, I was not using it as the basis of my argument.

In this particular case, I understand that Terry Schiavo was a practicing Catholic. I understand, from what the Pope said, that Catholic law is that her death is considered murder. However, since we live in a secular society, I would say that the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment would apply. Otherwise, one the arguments insisting on lethal injection for murderers would not have been made.

Denied by Michael Schiavo even the opportunity to be meet death with her God? EVEN OUR SOLDIERS have that ministry!

Abomination. Our Federal Government and the State of Floreisa have just declared that YOUR life can be ended at its covenience so long as you are not able to resist it. Disgrace!

I am now more than sure that God let us become a nation so that we could air out questions and problems like this... HE wanted to show the world just how broken it was and is continueing to become. I also think that satan acuses both sides of things we each are ashamed in order to keep the fight going......
Does anyone understand what I'm saying?

#104 True German Ally  3/26/2005 05:49PM PST

Always a pleasure reading your thoughtful and well written posts, TGA.

I don't think this is a tragedy so much as the eneluctable outcome of a profoundly dysfunctional family interfacing with a legal system not designed to handle such floridly psychopathological dramas. With all due respect, I think they're all nuts, including Terri, who, lest we forget, essentially died of an eating disorder and chose the execrable Michael as a husband.

I'm sure Milton or Joyce has already said this but I just spoke what was in my mind tonight...

#238 justdanny
What a blessing you are to your mom and it sounds like she has been to you. Do take some time for yourself, though, or you will be too exhausted to help when she needs it most. I wish her peace, comfort, a smooth passing (but not too soon!). Love I don't have to wish her, as obviously she's bathing in it daily.

#240
I think it was too late for him to just take the $1M bucks
legal wheels were already in motion

#247 texanista

We're G-d's petri dish? I always wondered why I felt like a lab rat.

#234 -mardukhai: Nobody's home!

Exactly how do you know that?

Bob G., thankyou sir. Thankyou very much. I also personally believe there is no "goodguy" in this fight as well.

#245:

funny... You go counter to all Jewish authorities (LOL)...

For instance you could read [Link: www.jpost.com...]

"As former British chief rabbi Immanuel Jakobovits noted in his seminal work Jewish Medical Ethics, "Jewish law sanctions, and perhaps even demands, the withdrawal of any factor – whether extraneous to the patient himself or not – which may artificially delay his demise in the final phase." .."

#247
that you're small-minded?

#228 AtlasShrugged
If there's proof, why is it coming out now, and not anytime in the past 10 years? You can't overturn the presumption that spouse's precedent over parents in determining this, 10 years late without credible, hard evidence. Just because we like position A over position B better, if the law says presume B, and we don't have any proof to say "despite the presumption, here's facts that A should be the decision" then it's B. Change that, and you've just axed innumerable laws where you LIKE the presumption. It's not selective, until you have a court case, and there was. It was decided.

#229 rtheyserius

I call it murder.

I understand, and commiserate. However, legally, it's not.

#235 Pitiricus

I cannot but think that even if she had made crystal clear her desire to die, the parents would be doing the same to try to reconnect her...

That is one of the reasons for the presumption of spousal supremacy in this area - of course parents want to keep their children alive (in most cases, yes, I know there's some strange exceptions ;) ) - even when the child wouldn't want it.

Lysander

I’ve received a few very nasty emails, and been called “Judas” here at LGF

Oh please. Some people need to step back to see even a small part of the big picture. This is a brutal case which has become a media and political circus. Neither side has pure motives or perfect reasoning. Cases like this raise critical questions which are very difficult to grapple with, much less answer.

Justdanny

I'm the only person living here with Mom and I'm her primary care giver. She has been sick for 5 months now and I have spent every hour of every day doing nothing but taking care of her. I have been listening more intently to every word she speaks. Watching her face when she watches tv or talks on the phone. I study, without being annoying, every thing about her. I wont like this world when she is gone.

You are a great man

Thanks, Charles! You absolutely did NOT deserve the kind of insults you've gotten for disagreeing with most of LGF on the Schiavo matter.

Glenn also points out that the “agree on everything or you’re evil” approach is exactly what has gotten the Democrat Party into such trouble; and I would add to that: 1) the failure to fact check, and 2) the willingness to believe in questionable sources with unshakable certainty.

It's something I've noticed here lately, too.

"Agree on everything or you're evil":

I've been called an idolater for believing and stating that President Bush doesn't intend to serve up Israel to the Arabs on a platter (ie, I'm accused of worshipping Bush as a false god.)

It's a pretty awful accusation to receive as someone Orthodox Jewish.

"the failure to fact check":

I've been accused here of making contradictory statements about where I live, my occupation, and my education.

I demanded that people 'fact check' to find the truth in the LGF archives. I was told that the onus was on ME to prove that I had NOT written these contradictions.

Apparently someone did finally go looking for the truth because these accusations suddenly stopped. I've gotten NO apology and NO correction for any of this.

"the willingness to believe in questionable sources with unshakable certainty":

Someone made such accusations without facts, and others around them accepted them as law without the slightest bit of evidence to support it.

------------

This is how smear campaigns operate, and it's PRECISELY how the Democrats have gotten themselves in trouble, as Glenn pointed out.

Many/most of us venture into hyperbole when we lash out at some people out there who have been PROVEN to deserve our scorn (like Ward Churchill and terror organizations), but to erupt in personal hysteria over something like Charles disagreeing with people on the Schiavo case is inexcusable.

If conservatives can't tolerate conservatives when we disagree, then we're heading for the same kind of trouble that the LLLs have already gotten themselves into.

#255
if you euthanize her, can we release Dr. Kervorkian?

#216 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar

" It was representatives of moderate Islam a creed that supposed doesn't exist. But it was pretty effective for a nonexistant creed "

So a couple of non extremists brow beat a couple of captive extremists and used the info they gleaned to capture/kill some bad guys.

In a population of over 800 million. And this puts an inkling of doubt in you, against the reality that there have been no anti islamic terrorism street protests or rallys or bake sales in the last four years (or before), by muslims, while islamists are murdering innocents all over the planet, to the tacit approval implied by 99% of islams closed lips.

Run with it bro. I got no hate for ya. Let me know how it works out.

Just deleted something that would have opened another can of worms. Let's just say I wish both sides of the family had done things differently.

#260

Well I think there is even more reason to defer to the spouse: you choose your spouse, you don't choose your parents... And it is much more likely that you discuss about this matter with your spouse and not with your parents...

Charles, you've written a very thoughtful post. I'm guessing you went thru some post/don't post it decision making. I'm glad you did post. My own take is that the ugliness of the rhetoric coming from both views is the real tragedy; along with the divide between the husband and the family, which is at the heart of the controversy. People in modern times need to make this decision (mostly privately) as a family unit often. Here the family is fighting. Others looking on seemed to have lost sight of the fact that at one time it wasn't possible to keep any coma patients alive and every day of extra hope is a good try.

For this exact case I would need to be privy to the medical records to have a specific opinion other than I don't think it is a matter of right or wrong. The family controversy is the issue.

As a conservative, depending on the medical knowledge, I would personally need to decide if I would expect others to put their resources towards a chronic case beyond what I and family could do. On the other hand my immediate family(on both side of the marriage) would be together in making any decision, allowing time for all to review and learn from the doctors. But unfortunately this did not happen for Terri's family; both sides.

Well, this case has been a real lesson for me. I have NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER of EVER ending up in a hospice or old folks' home for that matter. The day after I discover I can't handle it, I know what to do!

#265 FriarsTale

Good point. If the courts are basically authorizing the death of a woman, then I say Jack Kevorkian should get his case reviewed.

#248 Victor, thank you.

And may I address some personal words to Charles which I hope don't sound patronizing.

I am full of respect for you, that you didn't hide your opinion, where it might have been more convenient for you to do so.

You would have said what you wanted to say even if every single poster of LGF disagreed with you and you could have alienated many of them. And that is what sets LGF apart from typical "partisan blogs": Standing up for your own opinion, with all the consequences. And it speaks for the lizardoids, who (at least some of them) irritate me with some "knee jerk reactions" when it comes to European issues, that they respect your opinion, even if they disagree.

I hope this spirit will always prevail here.

#268:

Not according to r. Ovadia Yossef or r. Javcobovich...

And I believe they know quite a lot of Halacha...

Keeping the tube in in Jewish law is seen as an interference with God's will when there is no chance of recovery.

Not that it has an implication for Terri Schiavo as she was not Jewish...

257 Pitiricus
You used that same inappropriate quote the other day. IT DOESN"T APPLY. Read it. It says, "...in the final phase." It refers to doing things to stop immanent death. It is all about extraordinary measures not being taken in end stage terminal disease. Terri is NOW approaching death, but it's from starvation. Up to a week ago, she was profoundly brain damaged, but otherwise healthy. No more terminal than I am, at 5 years older than she. She was still getting periods and suffering menstrual cramps for which she was administered ibuprofen. Yup, I'm in about the same state of terminal. This is not a terminally ill or brain dead woman. Why do you want her dead? And if you want her dead, who else? At what stage of disability would you stop killing?

#228 Atlas...shrugged?

Pamela, can you tell me how the sanctity of marriage fits in the Objectivist Framework?

I'm not sure the original version, the Kilngon version, would support your take on this.

;)

I think we should let Mumia Abu Jamal starve to death. I certainly wouldn't want to live the way he is living and he surely doesn't want to live this way. Let's sedate him so he feels no pain and is relieved of his agony and has a sweet, painless death.