C raven
B ullshit
S alesmen

ABU GHRAIB!

Chutzpah.

This could be a Monty Python movie.

Pukeworthy

Pathetic self-congratulatory Pompous Elitists Narcissits

How low can you go

So, a bunch of liars, a comedian, and cable show noted mainly for its use of profanity win the Peabody Award for Journalism. How appropros of their shoddy industry.

Oh those Evil Joes put panties on terrorists

TORTURE!

HORRIBLE SHAME!~

truly pathetic

Is that the best they can do to harm the cause of freedom?

Does anyone really pay attention to awards: Pulitzer, Peabody, Academy, Tony, etc? Haven't they all been exposed as meaningless mutual admiration societies (I'm being polite)?

OT... The Monstrous Regiment of (UK) university teachers

[Link: www.melaniephillips.com...]

Answer to British Academics boycotting Israel

Rewarding the whores. *spits*

The Peabody for journalism is about as legitimate as a Screen Actors Guild award for a motion picture.

This makes sense. It could not be any different. Otherwise, the entire argument of an anti-American MSM would crumble.

P.S. My congrats to cBS, champs of the chumps!

"A Toast...to insignificance!" Here! Here!

Meanwhile, they are reviewing the awards of the mid-20th century.

Removing anything given to Edward R Murrow and Ernie Pyle, as these two Roosevelt stooges should have been obsessed with the Japanese-American internment camps, segregation in the military.....espeically the munitions explosion on the west coast that killed hundreds of African-Americans, German POW's working as farm laborers in the midwest, etc. (channeling the modern day liberal "journalist").

Does anyone really pay attention to awards: Pulitzer, Peabody, Academy, Tony, etc? Haven't they all been exposed as meaningless mutual admiration societies (I'm being polite)?

Heh, true. The media business, "news" and entertainment give themselves more awards then any other field. The egos must be fed.

Sorry to go OT so early...

Sony patents 'real' matrix

The moonbats will have a field day with this one--"Oh, look, now Karl Rove's evil mind-control technology is in our hands!"

Seriously, though, while this sounds neat and all, it'd probably never work--there's enough conspiracy theories regarding subliminal messaging through TV and radio. Now beaming data directly to the brain?

The Pink panties Prize !

/anticipating a troll: it wasn't only matter of pink panties, there is evidence of use of the dreaded BLACK panties too !

#14 Dave the.....

Agreed, except Murrow and Pyle were active during a Democrat Administration. Therefor any and all criticism towards them, by MSM definition, is illegitimate.

I said it before and I will say it again, DON'T WATCH C-BS and let them know that you don't plan on watching them anytime soon...

F'n commies

Are you implying that, from now on, any coverage of any news item that might show the U.S. in a bad light should be verboten, because, "Then, the terrorists win?"

Abu Ghraib happened. To ignore it would not hinder the terrorists; to report on it does not help the terrorists.

OT... Iranian Pres. shakes Chirac's hand and promises not to develop nuclear weapons...

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

New deal with EU in the works. Iran plays the world for a fool...

If the MSM doesn't do it (congratulate self) who will?

Just another attempt to appear relevant.

Ah, Mary Mapes and Dan Rather win the consolation prize.

Once again, the Liberal MSM, uses its ``awards'' structure such as P-U-Litzers and Peabodys and Emmys and the like to reinforce ideological conformity. Of course its never called that, but when like minded liberals see stories they ``like'' ie. that bash America, bash Bush, bash capitalism and generally toe to the liberal party line, this is the natural result.

Remember, despite what you hear about pampered broadcast reporters and anchors, most journalists don't earn financial renumeration like the rest of us for their good work so they strive for praise from colleagues and to be ``liked'' by the right people and circles. Hence non-monetary ``awards'' such as these that reward left-wing thinking.

As so many readers here have said before, its time for the right-wing blogosphere and conservative media to start its own prestigious awards cycle, but this time we'll offer more money!

How bout the Sapphire (Safire) or Reagan Prizes for best balanced reporting, best defense of free market and free enterprise, best investigative journalism of liberal sacred cows? Come on corporate and conservative foundations, lets make it happen!

They’re more worthy of the Foster Brooks Award for most intoxicating calamity of news buffoons. Perhaps their genre of news should be re-catagorized as sitcom.

The controversy over CBS’s discredited story about Bush’s National Guard service played no part in the judges’ determination that the Abu Ghraib report on “60 Minutes II” deserved honor, said Horace Newcomb, Peabody Awards director.

Can't argue with that....

#20

Not banning all coverage, but the obssesive day-after-day front page slamming of the US military.

Someone help me out with the facts. Was it the LA Times that ran the story on the front page something like 29 days in a row? Am I exaggerating?

Hey leave CBS alone they have just had a hard time since the
Prop failure (mammary flop) on Janet’s super bowl half time show.
Plus who doesn’t want to see prisoner with panties on their head. I want my own Abu garab TV channel; 24 hours of little miss point to the groin. I can’t wait; sometimes I purposely won’t touch my PC at work just so my screen savior of scary Halloween prisoner will load to my screen

What, like you expected something other than a self-congratulatory circle jerk? This is the MSM we're talking about here, after all.

C'mon Charles, Rathergate was so over 24 hours ago...

/Lib Historical Mindset off

Left wing Mpls paper has what appears to be a decent story on Caption Quarters dispute with the Canadian gov't.

[Link: www.startribune.com...]

Needs registration.

They?re more worthy of the Foster Brooks Award for most intoxicating calamity of news buffoons.

I thought that was the Ted Knight award.

Foster Brooks ...haven't thought of him in years....LOL!

Next the MSM is going to tackle corruption in the UN and former Clinton National Security Adviser Sandy Berger stuffing highly classified documents into his underwear while in the federal archives and then destroying them before he was called before the 911 commission!

Ok. They won't. Bush went AWOL you know...

I saw the following bumper sticker on a Volvo this morning on the way to work. "Am I liberal or just well educated?" It was on Western Michigan University's campus.

Apparently, there is no longer a distinction drawn between well educated and well indoctrinated.

#20 liberality

Good morning Liberality.

Nobody here would be griping if media coverage of Abu Ghraib had been fair, balanced, and non-hysterical. The gripes about Abu Ghraib are because the MSM tried to use it as a tool for political purposes. If you didn't know the facts, you would assume from reading the papers and watching the network news, that Sadaams Torture Chambers were open again under new management. Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, about a million times from the MSM quoting the reprehensible Teddy Kennedy.

#20, #26

Not to mention comparing the incident to some of the worst atrocoties ever committed in the history of mankind. The facts of the matter indicate otherwise....

#20 liberality
Nobody supports ignoring it
we merely revile GLORIFYING it

get it right

The controversy over CBS’s discredited story about Bush’s National Guard service played no part in the judges’ determination

I call bullshit. This was a deliberate "In yer face" to the e-e-e-e-e-vil right wing for destroying Rather and Mapes.

"Am I liberal or just well educated?"

Yes to first, NO to the second.

I've tortured myself this week by listening to Air America off and on. The local transit/evironmental show actually isn't too bad. Kind of NPRish, but rational for the most part.

The rest.....oh if this is what "educated" people put out, they should demand their education dollars be refunded.

#26 Dave the.....

Was it the LA Times that ran the story on the front page something like 29 days in a row? Am I exaggerating?

It wouldn't surprise me if they did. Early Bird had a section dedicated solely to Abu Ghraib (not to mention a Rummy section as well).

Peabody was one of the back-up segments in several of Ward's cartoon shows, starting with Rocky & His Friends. It continued when, in 1961, that half-hour series switched from ABC to NBC and was retitled The Bullwinkle Show. From 1964-67, reruns of it became part of The Hoppity Hooper Show, which aired on ABC, Saturday mornings. Finally, episodes were re-packaged into The Dudley Do-Right Show, which was on ABC in the 1969-70 season. Nowadays, it's seen as part of the Bullwinkle show on Cartoon Network.

peabody award from last post.
sorry,
like i forgot who commented this.

babbs @ 31
on a roll, lol

ted knight award.

I'm going to have to swim against the tide on this one.

First, there is no question that the media has overhyped Abu Ghraib to an unbelievable degree. Second it is clear that they avoid covering any story that paints a picture of anything but Quagmire. Third, Rather and Mapes are scumbags.

That said, it is my understanding that the award is for the breaking of the story, which CBS did for the MSM. I don't agree with how the story has been used to manipulate the world in the 14 or so months since it has been broken, but it was still a very important story.

One irony (that not surprisingly has been repeatedly missed or avoided by the MSM) is the fact that the whole arc of the story shows that the incidents were fairly isolated (despite Andrew Sullivan's protestations), and the perpetrators were rounded up and are in the process of being punished. The story also shows that, in fact, Bush and Karl Rove are not controlling the American media and as a country we still have freedom of the press--in marked contrast to many of our detractors.

I would say that an analogous situation is Seymour Hersh and My Lai. You may not like Hersh (I think he's tried to break 20 of the last 3 military scandals ever since My Lai). You may not like what the media did with the story and how it became the media's emblem for American actions in Vietnam. But it was an important story that needed to be reported.

In the end, I think CBS probably deserves its little award for this--assuming that it is for this story only and can't or shouldn't be offset by their amoral, non-journalistic, no integry behaviour subsequent.

Let the flames begin.

They (MSM) obssesed about this, but ignored the childrens prison liberated by the US and British, the people in the south whose wetlands were drained by Saddam in an effort to exterminate them.

#36

I agree.

Although I am surprised to see them call it the discredited story about Bush's National Guard service. I thought it was fake but accurate!

#42 American Infidel

Thou art correct. My humble apologies. I prostrate myself before you.

Lets see Panties on head, Head cut off, Panties on head, Head cut off,Panties on head, Head cut off, HMMMM I think I'll have the panties ma'am and thank you very much for the choice. Just don't think I could deal with that whole head of thing

With LOTS of Sarc

please, just dont prostate yourself before her
LOL!

The controversy over CBS’s discredited story about Bush’s National Guard service played no part in the judges’ determination

I call bullshit. This was a deliberate "In yer face" to the e-e-e-e-e-vil right wing for destroying Rather and Mapes.

100%
truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue

#46 BabbaZee

Not in a million years. ;-)

I found the panties that were used!

Can you say, "Torture," Charles?

I knew you could.

The George Foster Peabody awards, for broadcasting excellence in both news and entertainment

I wonder if CBS won in the news or entertainment category?

who was later fired by CBS for her role in the story about President Bush’s military service. ...

Story? How about straight out bullshit forgery.

We need coverage of the quality the German and Russian press gave to World War II for their respective citizenry!

Right, Charles?

#51 Mom Of 9

Well it wasn't news and I wasn't entertained so I don't know.

Oh great. Stupid is here to shill for the enemy.

This is just amazing. You never think that maybe, just maybe, if the military doesn't want its enemies to have such propaganda, it shouldn't do such things. Oh, no. One could never suggest that! Shoot the messenger instead. Obviously, what went on at Abu Ghraib (and elsewhere; let us remember that Abu Ghraib is only notable because reams of photographic evidence exists) is the media's fault.

#37,

I haven't listened very much, but what I've heard on Air America sounds like NPR as done by small market drive time DJs. Only without the merciful interludes of recorded music.

...of course, noone even MENTIONED the RATHERGATE MEMOS!

Somebody get out the troll spray, we've got an infestation.

hence the nic......

I'll repost:

Journalism awards handed out by a dog?

Hi not neo

We live with a media that does not provide news, but controversies. Here was a story that featured sex and violence taking place during an unpopular war, i.e., tailor-made for a press that deals with the sensational. I don't think it was necessarily because of some ulterior political motive that it received so much attention.

Abu Ghraib also brought up some issues with how we see our mission in Iraq. True that this was not on a par with what Hussein did with his prisoners, but it is also not behavior that Americans associate with America. As occupiers in Iraq, we need always have the moral high ground to succeed. It is not good enough to say, "At least we're better than Hussein."

#59-

Anyone who disagrees MUST be a troll, right? Torture (and now murder) scandals are the media's fault and anyone who disagrees with the party line is a bad person. Totalitarian mindset much?

festivus minimus.

time for lunch!

[Link: www.sosiran.com...]

#63: Bingo! Typical LGF idiots like Thom prefer an echo chamber. Julius Streicher is their idea of "objective journalism."

Do you have a troll problem?

Then use New CON-TROLL spray. Guaranteed to remove even the leftist of moonbats from your blog.

The really sad part is, MST3K's Peabody award is now indelibly tarnished.

I'll never be able to watch Outlaw of Gor the same way again.

My thoughts on the matter

#63 Absoludicrious

Tell you what. The next time you don't show up to trash America, then, perhaps, you might not be a troll.

Until then, piss away.

#8 Mary - to be honest about it, the only awards I ever even noticed were the Nobel and Pulitzer. When these became tainted by purely partisan politics, I even ignored them.

I don't BLAME cBS for breaking the Abu Ghraib story, and as much as many of us here at LGF like to poke fun at it as just "Panties on their heads" it was, IMO, mistreatment of prisoners of war that reflected badly on those members of the military that took part in, covered up or condoned those activities. Our military, quite frankly, is better than that.

I DO however blame ALL of the MSM for the continuous beating of the drums about Abu Ghraib, especially in light of the military investigation and punishment of those involved. It is the constant pounding of the media on the matter that really pisses me off. Abu Ghraib was a deviation from the norm for the US Military and therefore "newsworthy"; unfortunately, kidnappings, beheadings, suicide bombers and the like are the norm for the "insurgents" in Iraq and therefore are deemed hardly newsworthy by the MSM. FTA, and their Peabody prizes.

Nobel Peace Prizes, Peabody and Pulitzer Prizes, Grade School Band medals, ---all about equal in stature? Naw, the band medals are special.

Like hanging Gacy in the Louvre

Funny how Dan Rather threads turn out the trolls. Is this a cult thing?

#66 Gordon

Hey, Stupid! I left a reply for you on that other thread.

#71 realwest

I DO however blame ALL of the MSM for the continuous beating of the drums about Abu Ghraib, especially in light of the military investigation and punishment of those involved.

Amen. Well stated.

#74 V the K
yes.
The Cult of the Perpetually Aggrieved Victim.

Trolls- people bereft of both comity AND comedy?

Discuss!

Well it wasn't news and I wasn't entertained so I don't know.

Well, I wasn't entertained either, and I agree it wasn't news. But after further consideration, I'd go for entertainment for the sheer storytelling value. You have to admit, these people are gifted storytellers (make that s**t shovellers)

The thing I like about listening to Air America the most, I suppose, is hearing the cha-ching of George Soros' money going down the drain...

#56 Absoludicrious

Who are you responding to first of all? It helps when you address specifically instead of shooting from the hip...

The point I would like to make is that as usual, the MSM honed in on this particuliar subject, not withstanding all of the good things that are happening in Iraq. It's no mistake that they (CBS) are a mouthpeice for the left that want to see this war fail.

The lamest, silliest, most treasonous, asinine piece of reporting all year, and it wins the Peabody Award? I had to go to their website, to see who else won.

"National Public Radio`s team of foreign correspondents won for its coverage of " The War in Iraq."

If you listen to NPR's war commentary at all, you have an inkling of what kind of board was voting on these awards.

Moonbats.

...if I was him, I'd be asking for my money back.

#82 Mr. Papageorgio

It was talking to me and you are wasting your time trying to use sense and reason.

#82 Mr. Papageorgio

Whoops, jumped the gun there. It was talking to me on a later post. My second sentence still stands though.

#70-

Ja, Ve must all support ze Reich! Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuhrer!

Seriously, that's what you sound like. I'm not trashing America. I didn't put on an American military uniform and commit acts worthy of the KGB. That's trashing America, and it's a pity you can't see it, Thom.

#85 not neo

Roger that, thanks.

Me hopes that after lunch this place will clear out....

#82 Mr. Papageorgio

See what I mean?

#53, #66

On yer bike, mate!

#41 Dave the.....

the people in the south whose wetlands were drained by Saddam in an effort to exterminate them.

Just where is all the outrage from the environmentalists over the Marsh Arabs and the oil well fires set by SH during Desert Storm?

Exterminating people, well I never expected the enviro-nuts to give a damn about people, but the environment was being systematically destroyed and what do we get from them? Crickets.

prostrate
prostate

boy those words do bring different thoughts into ones head.

#82- In my first post I'm responding directly to the original LGF post that spawned this thread. Afterwards, I've used the numbers I've been told are convention here.

The media hyped on Abu Ghraib because Abu Ghraib had pictures and the media love pictures, but you would have to be willfully blind to think Abu Ghraib constitutes the total extent of the problem of abuse and, yes, torture in American detention facilities.

#67 keepandbear

Then use New CON-TROLL spray. Guaranteed to remove even the leftist of moonbats from your blog.

Take Visa or Mastercard?

#91

/moonbat on

Well if Bu$Hitler wasn't hell bent on avenging his father's botched assassination attempt and his thirst for oillllllll by using cowardly air assaults, then Mr. Hussein wouldn't have had to light the fires. It cause and effect, you know.

/moonbat off

Now I have to take another shower.

Let us be clear. Absoludicrous is not a troll.

87 Absoludicrious

Worthy of KGB.....

I'm sure there are many, many people in the former USSR that wish all they had gotten was Abu gharib. Those that are still alive that is

Oh and sieg fucking heil to you

I just really dont give a crap about what happened at Abu Ghraib.

They capitalized on the well known "arab fear of dogs"? Good! They placed panties and hoods on heads? Whatever! They sleep and food deprived a bunch of mass murderers? YAWN!

Oh, btw, it's not just me that doesnt care. Neither does the majority of the normal, sane, common sense oriented population of this country.

Hence, election result 2004.

QED

I say respond to the trolls. Give a good arguement.

As I said above, I've checked out Air America over the past week and one of the big things I've noticed is NO diversity of opinions. It's LLL all the time. The hosts, the news, definitely the callers. No one challenges the things being said on there. And truth is optional appartently.

If we are right. We should welcome a different viewpoint and be able to refute it.

thank you ward cleaver @ 61

ive been wearing those wooden shoes,
forgot your name.

just turned on the tv, and pissed in my pants.

#99 Dave the.....

You can refute until you're blue in the face. Won't do any good.

87 absopure --- "acts worthy of the KGB?" LOL! Now that's a stretch.

The KGB would have had the guy hooked up to REAL electricity, instead of the fake setup the box-stander was on. The KGB would have had the prisoners raped, beaten and killed by sadistic guards, instead of mocked and humiliated with naked posing and panties on heads.

The KGB would never have allowed a story like this to be aired, because they would have killed the soldiers who had the pics, and the reporters who tried to publicize them.

Abu Ghraib should have been a blip on the radar of this war, a case where disciplinary action was warranted and taken. It should not have become a rallying cry for the enemy, with the feverish assistance of the anti-war MSM.

Abu Ghraib has now been attacked twice in a three-day period. Attacks occurred on April 2 and today, April 4. US forces took 44 casualties (most wounds were minor). US forces, however, are hard targets and the Abu Ghraib complex is heavily fortified. Wire reports conclude the terrorists took 50 casualties (out of an attacking force estimated at 60 gunmen). Their attack did trigger s “quick reaction force” (QRF) of Apache helicopters.

The enemy is still trying to use Abu Ghraib to drum up support for their failing cause. Thanks, CBS!

#94 Mr. Papageorgio

Visa or master card?

cold, hard, IN GOD WE TRUST AMERICAN CASH thank you very much. Never know were the interest from those cards is being spent

#101

Good point.

#90 Ward Cleaver
and a sod off swampy for good measure

#99 Dave

The only problem with that is the call screeners are looking for only supporting callers. I tried to call on the Social Security issue and when I gave the short story of my point, the screener said, "Not Interested."

and they (LLL) call repubs fascist?

Your disclaimer forgot to mention that it was an isolated exception and the perpetrators were punished for their crimes.

As opposed to the 500,000 bodies in mass graves found so far of the 1,300,000 missing Iraqi's systematically slaughtered...

Which went unreported... so no Peabodies won...

#83 octopus - I truly don't want this to be or to sound condescending, but you've come a LOOOONG way since the first posts you made on LGF. Your post #83 was spot on (and good for you for going to their website and "researching" that bit).
As we record another victory for Charles' willingess to let posters speak their minds (within certain obvious limits) and for the lizadroids who, no matter how frustrated they used to get at your earlier posts, I'd think would have to admit that you've changed your attitude towards posting here. But beware, thinking, researching and writing without adhominem attacks on a group which is, in the blog world, unusally well educated, experienced and more broad based than some might think, can get addictive!

#106 carl p
THe first time my sister in law called me a zionazi, I said, can I please explain to you why I hold this viewpoint, to which she literally screamed:

NO YOU CANNOT I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ANYTHING YOU THINK

she is 49

they are all the same

#56 Absolutely ridiculous

The 'military' didn't do anything at Abu Ghraib. Those reservists acted on their own will and violated military laws. Another soldiers reported them as soon as he found what was going on, and the military investigated immediately. The people involved have either been sentenced, or are undergoing trial.

If you have a beef with the military, then state what that beef is and why you have it. Don't tar the entire military because of 7 idiots who broke military law.

#98 TMF

Oh, btw, it's not just me that doesnt care. Neither does the majority of the normal, sane, common sense oriented population of this country.

I thought I might be a-okay. The way that the left pounds this crap into the sheeple's heads, you'd think the military was sent to embarrass and humiliate, yet not kill our adversaries...lol

FUCK P.C.

Didn't the military "break" this story? Or do I remember the timeline screwed up?

I thought the army did an internal investigation, and handed the investigation to the press once it was done. The press either didn't know about it or didn't report it before the army's initiative.

Again, maybe I'm wrong about that, but if I'm right, the reporting involved wasn't all that prize-worthy. Except, of course, that the press was standing up to The Man.

But, whatever, the standards seem to be so low that some day I'll probably get a Pulitzer, and put it in the attic next to my Nobel Peace Prize...

The only problem with that is the call screeners are looking for only supporting callers. I tried to call on the Social Security issue and when I gave the short story of my point, the screener said, "Not Interested."

Great example. The other night they brought up Social Security. I was thinking "God, if they say 'Bush wants to eliminate Soc Security', I'm throwing my radio out the window."

Hey guess what? They started going off on. That Bush and the Republicans want to get rid of it.

It's different. No debating. Just these really excited sounding people talking about how evil conservatives are. Very juvenile.

OT but equally selfcongratulatory John McCain, a pink pig & Citizens Agains Government Waste gave out awards all over the MSM news yesterday penalizing "pork" in government spending, while down at the Arizona border, the good Senator's citizens were holding down the fort at their own expense to turn back the illegal alien occupation he and our government won't fund as it ought.

#112 john jay
Rumsfeld held a press conference that January which was largely ignored, yes.

#99 Dave the---

As I said above, I've checked out Air America over the past week and one of the big things I've noticed is NO diversity of opinions. It's LLL all the time. The hosts, the news, definitely the callers. No one challenges the things being said on there.

You see, the lib-left formed of conception of Fox News and Right Wing radio that it was all one-sided opinion and shrill propaganda. (Note, they formed this conception without bothering to, you know, watch Fox News or listen to Right Radio.) So, they came to the conclusion that the way for them to have more influence, was too be even more one-sided and shrill.

The KGBs version of Abu Graib was called the Lubyanka. An internee, most were there simply as victims of soviet terror not because they were terrorists or even criminals of any sort,
would spend the first several days standing nude in a windowless 2.5x2.5 ft. concrete cell with about 3inches of water on the floor. This was just to soften them up before they actually began any torture. Read the Gulag Arcapelago.

Courage

#112 John Jay

Kimmet announced that prisoner abuse had taken place and an investigation was ongoing back at a press conference in January.

Gordon, you are a nitwit!

#87 Absoludicrious

Your KGB line was way out of bounds. Did things get out of hand at Abu Ghraib? Yes. Were inappropriate things done? Yes and an investigation and punishment has/is taking place. You must have read the Gulag Archipelago or other documentaries on the horrors perpetrated by the KGB. To try to compare Abu Ghraib to the outright bloodthirsty killing done by the KGB is false on the face of it. Unless you wish to look silly of course, then keep standing by that statement.

#116 Abu Messer

The libs may not be watching Fox news but their allies the rich lobby AARP run scaremongering commercials I'm sure I've seen on Fox News stations against reform of Social Security by showing a house being destroyed to its foundation.

"Don't let them destroy Social Security" as the wrecking ball or crane crashes into the side of the house....

No discussion of the problem; no solution either, just hysteria. I'm so ashamed of these whining aging schnorrers.

Re: Absoludicrous

There were a few incidents, a few, where the abuse, apparently committed by soldiers not under orders, where prisoners were badly abused, and there were some deaths of prisoners in custody.

OK, that was bad, and it looks like all involved in the worst of the abuses are being punished.

The point is, the MSM cares not a whit that abu Ghraib used to be where enemies of the Saddam regime where tortured and killed.

The never ending spotlight on a year old story suggests the MSM has more on its mind than just an isolated incident of bad behavior. Obviously, the MSM wants a My Lai type massacre they can rub the American peoples noses in, to "prove" that this is an unethical war, just as they "proved" Viet Nam was wrong, so we can cut and run, and watch the Islamic version of The Domino Theory come to fruition.

#122 Alegrias - agreed. The AARP is the most powerful lobby in the US, and they don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Heck, fixing SS will be a cakewalk compared to the problems we'll be facing w/ Medicare and Medicaid.

Everything old is new again! Everyone's a nazi!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And the nazis help the KGB!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

and the moon is well on the wane, so....maybe its ergotism.

Interesting.

#116 Abu Messerschmitt

they came to the conclusion that the way for them to have more influence, was too be even more one-sided and shrill.

One sided and shrill. Hmm. I think that's the Hillary Clinton theory of how to gain influence.

Charles,

I dare you to show up in Camouflaged pajamas

#83 Octopus:

most treasonous

There's the "T" word again! Ah, the glory days of the Soviet Union, which you must pine for!

Take your talk of "T", and shove it up your "A."

Abu Ghuraib - my opinion, FWIW -

1) The military was investigating (Jan), and made the mistake of not releasing the pics. They were the most damaging, so when they came out, as everyone knew they would, it was attributed as breaking news (March).

2) These few abusers are analagous to high school bullies - unchecked they get worse as time goes on.

3) Never, never have a night shift without spot checks. ANY leader knows that.

4) As a former, fully trained and qualified military interrogator, I will tell you - it was against the rules to even touch a prisoner. No MP or untrained person should have been interrogating.

5) Lesson learned - Follow the rules, they are all spelled out in numerous pubs, and they are there for a reason.

6) Yes the abuse was wrong - it always is. But the issue here seems to be on the order of magnitude. To compare what was done, against official, standing policy (in spite of memos contrary to that policy), to a few by a few, to the Nazi and Stalinist regimes whose stated policy was to suppress, opress and kill, in the millions, as a matter of course, is ludicrous. (OT - had I seen that memo, I would have questioned it's legitimacy, and there are many service members who would have done the same.)

7) Yes, we should be better, and held to a higher standard. We were held to that standard, and by own own actions.

8) Caveat: I put this out for reference only. I will not debate points on this. It is my opinion, thought out thouroughly, based on experience and not likely to change.

OT: Made in Palestine TODAY at SomArts Cultural Indoctrination Center, SF, CA

Organized by the Justice In Palestine Coalition – Bay Area (JIP); Co-Sponsored by KPFA 94.1 FM

Palestinian Propaganda in the US (Daily Star, Leb)

The exhibition features a collection of contemporary art made by 23 Palestinian artists and refugees, who live in the Occupied Territories and in the diaspora.

Dang I left out #187

nazis nazis all around....

PIMF

#56 & #93 Absoludicrious -Why don't you read posts #33, 35, 40 and 71 before you make yourself look even more ridiculous. And as to your # 93 - it is true that in war (as in combat on the ground, not just war of words) there are apt to be crimes committed by US forces in the heat of battle (although I wish you'd link or make some specific references to back up your claim), but please PLEASE note that these are NOT the norm for the US Military and ARE part of the Standard Operating Procedures for the "insurgents"

#50 Gordon - "Can you say torture, Charles" - why ask such a redundant question Gordo; Charles reads all of your posts and therefore is exquisitely familiar with the term torture.

#75 Thom - I know I've asked you this before, but why, for god's sake, do you insist on feeding the trolls?

#128: Sorry, misplacement of block quotes.

"most treasonous" was the bit of literature that should have been blockquoted.

Gordon vs Octopus

This should be worth microwaving some popcorn for.

I just saw Abso's snarky post that LGF readers don't know the difference between Kurds and Arabs. Not at all true, actually, although I will admit I don't know enough Kurdish surnames to know someone was Kurdish just by his name.

#129 Former SSG

As a former, fully trained and qualified military interrogator, I will tell you - it was against the rules to even touch a prisoner.

The key word is "former." Bush and Rumsfeld and Gonzalez changed the rules after you left.

108 realwest -- If you only knew me from the brief period where I was p.o.'d about the Schiavo case, I can see where you might have gotten the wrong impression about me. Set 100 angry wolverines on anyone, even St. Jimmy of Carter, and you'd be likely to get some heat in return. I'm no saint, not hardly, but I am a nice, rational man most of the time. If you look at my old posts, pre-Schiavo, and those from this week, you'll see the real Octo.

That said, I still recommend that everyone should take a turn "running the gauntlet" once in awhile, defending an unpopular position while being poked with spears and beaten with truncheons. Sharpens you up. You have to take the shootin' irons out and play with them once in awhile, or they get rusty.

Peace!

135 Gordon

No, they didn't. The doctrine taught at the school is the same. No graduate of the school was involved - what does that tell you? Reason it out carefully, now, and remember we have the right to refuse unlawful orders.

#132 Realwest:

#50 Gordon - "Can you say torture, Charles" - why ask such a redundant question Gordo; Charles reads all of your posts and therefore is exquisitely familiar with the term torture.

Several cuts above the usual flame-chatter here on LGF. Touche.

#135 Gordon, reference?

#87

American military uniform and commit acts worthy of the KGB

Please give us examples of this?

#132 realwest

Do farts and ridicule count as troll feed? :)

Do farts and ridicule count as troll feed? :)

Gordo is more of an Attention Whore than a troll, so, in his case, yes.

#135 Gordon - you are aware that Pappas and Karpinski made a complete and utter hash of leadership in Abu Ghraib, right?
That the place was chaotic, and the prisoners very dangerous?
That one of the prisoners 'killed' by MPs was shot because he had a gun and was firing on the MPs?

Nice automatic disclaimer-update, Charles.

Unfortunately, your pack-followers aren't following on this one. As Exhibit # 1, I give you #98 TMF. They disagree with you -they think torture occurred at Abu Ghraib. And they think that's GOOD!

Yawn

128 gordon -- Perhaps "treason" is a bit strong, for a moonbatty piece like the CBS show, which I saw in its lurid entirety. I won't shove it up my ass, as you suggested, but I will amend it to "disloyal." It was most unhelpful to the American cause, which was already saddled with the surprisingly strong insurgency, impeding the cause of democracy.

It was a story made to order for the Bush-hating Rather, no matter how you look at it. I'm glad his career ended in disgrace, along with that of his Harpy/Producer Mary Mapes.

#148 Gordon

Well, I don't know what you're reading, but it seems to me that TMF is saying wearing panties on ones head doesn't constitute torture.

144 - Don't say they.

1) Abuse and torture are different. Look them up. I did. Abuse occured at AG. Torture did not.

a·buse (-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
3. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
4. To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
5. Obsolete To deceive or trick.
n. (-bys)
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
2. Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
3. Sexual abuse.
4. An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
5. Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.

tor·ture (tôrchr)
n.
1.
a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
tr.v. tor·tured, tor·tur·ing, tor·tures
1. To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.
2. To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict.
3. To twist or turn abnormally; distort: torture a rule to make it fit a case.

2) I don't think it should have happened. Quit making stupid generalizations.

#105 Babba

ya beat me to it with "sod off, swampy",
but since there are numerous trolls present (I count three?)
let me reiterate:

sod off swampies!

What is the "Peabody Award" all about? It's all about a bunch of pea-bodied, penis-envying propa"gland"ists, who were impressed that the Biggest Attraction at Abu Ghraib--- was the girl.
Mandatory Disclaimer: "etc."

If sexual humiliation constitutes torture then every high school in America is an evil torture dungeon staight outta Dante's inferno
;-)

#149 mongoose
Or, Sod off Swampii
Sod off Swampum

Just registered. Looking forward to much debate and discussion.

welcome glakinspeil ~

We're not asking for much, not even the sort of patriotism displayed by Hollywood and the journalists of WWII, just some balance.

#102 octopus - Your post further supports my contention in
#108 (I just don't type - or for that matter think - fast enough).
And you KNOW you're ok here once Gordon jumps on you!
Be patient with him - a lot of us look at Gordo as our own pet
troll; he doesn't mean to troll, it's just that he has trouble with logic, research (don't recall ANY research he's ever done) writing comprehensively and reading comprehension. I get on Thom's case for feeding Gordon cause Thom has no patience for people who are old enough to know better, but still don't apply logic, research etc. and Thom, you know you do know better. I used to think Gordo was borderline troll. Most trolls just jump into whatever the fuck thread they get to, go ot, drop a couple of verbal hand grenades and then disappear - never to argue a point or try to respond civilly which Gordo used to do. Lately however, Gordo has adopted ALL troll traits except leaving quickly. Must be a learning disorder or something.

Panties of Torture?

Babba..... It's me... BG.... found some XXXlarge pink frilly ones on sale at K-Mart..... load up the truck... time to

PANTY SMITE!

#135 Gordon

The key word is "former." Bush and Rumsfeld and Gonzalez changed the rules after you left.

Do you have some documented changes that would be required through HQDA to back that up?

The AARP is the most powerful lobby in the US, and they don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

One Lizordoid said once that the AARP and teachers unions costs each of us a hell of a lot more money then any thing Halliburton alledgedly has done. Not that Halliburton has done anything bad, but you get my point.

#157 Amalie
chick-a chick-a pow chicka-pow-pow!

Let me gather the holy implements of exorcism

meet me in St Peter's square.

#151 BabbaZee - Yup, that's pretty much how I remember High School!

If sexual humiliation constitutes torture then every high school in America is an evil torture dungeon staight outta Dante's inferno

The the Lamestream Media, anything less than four star spa treatment is "torture."

Look at those poor Abu Ghraib terrorists. They obviously were deprived of cucumber facials for days.

158 - Mr. P

I still have friends who teach at the school, and if the doctrine had changed that radically, I'd know. Gordon isn't answering because he can't stand up to an expert or to logic.

#161 realwest
LOL! ;-)

#158 Mr. Papageorgio, already asked #139 and unanswered. I wish you luck:-)

#162 V the K
AND Latte Colonics!
OH the Humanity!

#144

There must be some confusion.

I was saying I have no problem with most, if not all of what went on at Abu Ghraib.

Torture, on the other hand, is inappropriate and reprehensible.

V the K - Thanks for (much needed, at this point) humor!

TMF - I think Gordon is deliberately misunderstanding, I did not read your post the way he did.

#163 (and previous) Former SSG

Your point about the Abu Ghraib abuse being unauthorized is valid. Another point though. I've been to SERE school. Here's some breaking news for the MSM. The US military tortures its own troops, because what went on at Abu Ghraib is basically what went on at the SERE course.

Also, he does not know the difference between abuse and torture. I am trying to reeducate him, but he seems to have run away.

#114 Alegrias:

If the minutemen really want to stop illegal immigration, they should put down their Arizona pitchforks and head for the nation's farm fields. Offer to do back-breaking agricultural work for $4 per hour. Or go clean toilets for Walmart at $5 per hour. Then we won't have any more illegal aliens.

#171 Former SSG

There he is. He's right below you.

170 - Not Neo

Yes, been there. What we did to students there (I was a role-player) was often worse than what happens to the detainees. We would not have given you a Koran, let you pray, and the food was MUCH worse for you. Cockroaches and rice, anyone?

#167 TMF, no confusion. Just what you wrote in #98 went thru the inverter gate nodroG and back out in #144

Babba

better speak out, fuddermucker
cause I got dese panties, nice and pink
gonna put dem on your head
sucker, you be better off dead
if'n I stick dese panties on your head

PantyGirl Rap

#163 Former SSG

That's correct, if our emotional little fiend even had a clue, he'd be blaming Gen Myers as well.

#165 Roger

already asked #139 and unanswered. I wish you luck:-)

Thank you much. I think I'll give up on this one too (for today anyhow).

Not Neo -

AND we were simulating what OTHER armies do.

Gordon has changed the argument to one he thinks he can win. Defeated by simple logic, such a sad sight.

Former SSG

[Link: lawofwar.org...]

#174 Former SSG

I got into a little trouble there. I escaped before I was supposed to. I showed back up at my unit and they made me go back to the school. I figured a successful breakout would mean automatic graduation. Guess not. The role-players "splainified" things to me when I got back.

gordon @ 172

#172

Gordon  4/7/2005 10:08AM PDT

#114 Alegrias:

If the minutemen really want to stop illegal immigration, they should put down their Arizona pitchforks and head for the nation's farm fields. Offer to do back-breaking agricultural work for $4 per hour. Or go clean toilets for Walmart at $5 per hour. Then we won't have any more illegal aliens.

Oh gordon, gordon, gordon.... I don't have a pitchfork, I got a semi-automatic weapon and I ain't gonna go work for 5 bucks an hour... you go do it...

Gordon
go here READ then Respond

linky

#176 Amalie, aka Bubble Girl.

LOL!

-Neanderthal Roger

this may have already been posted but has anyone else noticed that the Peabody award is for news and "entertainment"

obviously CBS and the MSM thinks it is 'entertaining' to besmirch America and President Bush

it's all a freaking game to them

And, Roger and Mr. Las Vegas Vacation: see #179.

#156 realwest

Well, I think the idiot should be banned. But until he is, I'll keep lobbing farts at it.

#176 Amalie

I got a Zionist Thong
and an Infidel brief
gonna smash em in yer face
till ya screamin' for relief

See my Holy Ghost Bra ?
Gonna smite you in the face
Unleash the sisters of mercy
Up in dis army base

Quote in a column by GeorgeAnn Geiger covering the diplomatic journalism awards
Seymour Hersch:
"I have never seen a time when what we write has such little effect on what the government does," Hersh said at one point. "This is not like Nixon and Johnson and Vietnam -- this group in the White House has an agenda, and it won't stop."

msm really think the tail should wag the dog

Herreis the whole story:[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

#182: Your link is Rumsfeld CYA.

But it's about someplace called Abu Gharib. Don't have any idea where that is ...

BabbaZee @ 187

LOL LOL ROFLOL LOL LOL Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

LOL LOL

cryin here.......

P.C.T.S.A. Emergency Action Message:

Grab the holy clue bat and the Victoria's Secret catalog and meet me at location XXX

~ Queen of Clubs

#188 Glackinspeil

msm really think the tail should wag the dog

No doubt about it...

179 Gordon

1) What you just posted basically says that these detainees will be treated humanely in spite of not being genuine POWs.

2) And at the risk of repeating myself, we can refuse to carry out unlawful orders. That would include this memo, regardless of who wrote it. It may land a soldier in a sh@t-storm for having a conscience, but I believe that most would do it.

3)

Thus, the Bush Orders of January and February, 2002, denying Geneva Convention protection to captured members of the Taliban and Al Qaeda appears inherently flawed. Acts carried out in furtherance of those orders, if themselves violations, might, accordingly, constitute war crimes.

I totally agree. See #2.

4)

Article 130 of the Convention provides that grave breaches include "... any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, compelling a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of the hostile Power, or wilfully depriving a prisoner of war of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed in this Convention."

Again, this definition is torture, not abuse. Abuse is what occured at AG, see my earlier post.

Must go back to work.... dyin here.... LOL LOL Babba LOL

Queen of the Smiters....

French cut, bikini style
gonna make you squeal
gonna make you beg
feel the pain of the elastic waist
you fuddermudder
whilst I squeeze ya brain....

PantyGirl Smiter Rap

Hi, LGFer's! Been lurking for quite a long while now...and am grateful I realized that registration was open.

BabbaZee...you're killin' me, girl. My stomach hurts most days after reading your posts.

Oh, Gordo...you poor thing, you.

#172 Love Me Daddy --- Silliness. If the supply of cheap labor were cut off (say, by an Israeli-style security barrier), the agricultural interests would develop technology that would replace the workers (robots don't suck up social services, over-crowd schools, contribute to pollution and urban sprawl, or make-up the foot soldiers of dangerous gangs like MS-13) and the Wal-Marts and hotels would be forced to pay workers a living wage.

Meanwhile, Mexico would be forced to open its economy and improve the circumstances of its people... instead of exporting its problems to us.

Unless, of course, LMD likes the idea of brown people working for slave wages and the continuation of Mehico as a 3rd world craphole.

#194 Amalie
Cut out a spleen for me!

#195 HDMom
;-) thanks - the pleasure's all mine!

Babbazee

Location XXX

PantySmoter Girls Do Bagdad

#187,

Mercy!

The "brothers" are quaking in their caves!

(at least that's what they say they're doing)

Not Neo -

Good for you. But part of Army schools is completing the process. Sorry you had to endure more! I would have loved seeing you return to finish taking your lumps!

I never went throught he class, but my friend Angie did. The stories she told. As a roleplayer, I didn't get to see half of it....

#198 Amalie

Bagdad Babba, She-Wolf of the P.C.T.S.A.!
Let the abuse commence!

#199 Dar ul Harb
Perhaps they'll all go blind.... ;-)

#193 Former SSG:

1. Was what happened under U.S. administration at Abu Ghraib, or any other U.S. detention facility, as bad as what happened under Saddam?

Of course not.

2. Was it abuse or torture?

That's a word game.

3. Was it disgraceful given our own society?

Yes. It's not disgraceful to many LGF imbeciles like Thom because their conception of what our nation stands for seems rooted in 1925 Alabama, or 1902 Philippines.

4. Are higher ups responsible?

They are responsible in a general way. There is circumstantial evidence they were responsible in a specific way, if only by not foreseeing the inevitable result of their presumably well-intentioned actions.

#196 --- Hell, is there any reason you couldn't program robots to clean toilets and make beds?

#179 Gordon

Sooo what does your link have to do with operations in IRAQ?

#200 Former SSG

One thing holds true. Female interrogators are 10 times worse than the men. I don't know what it is, but standing there in your undies getting mocked by a 5-foot tall blond is humiliating and I don't have the hangups that your average islamofascist has...

#185 nodroG

He ordered that "commanders should "...treat them humanely, and to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, consistent with the Geneva Conventions of 1949."

quoting Rumsfeld

Ok. how does this in any way support your assertions in #135?

#195 HDMom, hi and welcome!

#206 not neo just conservative
How 'bout a 5 foot 9 brunette? ;-)

Nordrog
"2. Was it abuse or torture?

That's a word game."

But YOU came onto the thread saying we were cheering TORTURE at Abu Ghraib! Why didn't you accuse us of condoning 'abuse' if this is a word game?

I have photos taken during the first gulf war at the recreation center in Kuwait City that the Iraqis used as an interrogation and holding facility. There is not a single pair of "pink panties" or a dog leash and collar in any of the pictures. There are bloody implements such as would normally be used in a body and fender shop. Portapower hydralic tools, vices, vice grips, hot plates, batteries and starter cables, as well as other things such as restraint devices, and carpenters tools. I am sure that Saddams thugs had simular implements at Abu Garaib when they ran the facility. I have not even seen a suggestion by the MSM that we have assumed the methods and materials of torture that were in common use prior to Saddams ouster. The methods of those who resist our presense in Iraq and plans for its future seem unchanged from those of Saddams regime.

Why are you supportive of torture Gordon?

Yes. It's not disgraceful to many LGF imbeciles like Thom because their conception of what our nation stands for seems rooted in 1925 Alabama, or 1902 Philippines.

Now, now Stupid. Don't you mean Germany circa 1930's-1940's?

#203 Gordon

their conception of what our nation stands for seems rooted in 1925 Alabama, or 1902 Philippines

I don't know about Alabama, but you've got to admire Pershings method of resolving the muslem insurrection in the PI.

Just before World War I, there were a number of terrorist attacks on the United States forces in the Philippines by Muslim extremists. So General Pershing captured 50 terrorists, and had them tied to posts for execution. He then had his men bring in two pigs and slaughter them in front of the, now horrified, terrorists.

To muslims, eating or touching a pig, its meat, its blood, etc., is to be instantly barred from Paradise (and those virgins), and doomed to hell.

The soldiers then soaked their bullets in the pigs' blood, and proceeded to execute 49 of the terrorists by firing squad. The soldiers then dug a big hole, dumped in the terrorist's bodies, and covered them in pig blood, entrails, etc. They let the 50th man go.

And for the next 42 years, there was not a single Muslim extremist attack anywhere in the world.

42 years. Works for me.

#203 Gordon 4/7/2005 10:24AM PDT

Gordon. Yes it was wrong. Look up the meanings of the words. Abuse and torture are different. It just is not on the same scale as Nazis and Stalinists, as you imply. You really need to read my earlier posts more carefully, because you are not getting my points.

Were the higher authorities wrong? I agree they were, but there is a check and balance system - refuse unlawful orders, follow doctrine, used only trained personnel. See my earlier post.

Disgraceful, again, yes, because we are held to a higher atandard, by ourselves, and for good reasons. Was it blown out of proportion by the media? Just as disgracefully, yes.

And that was the point of this thresd!

#208 BabbaZee

Is that a threat...or an offer?

/blushing

language matters. Period.
there is a distinct difference between torture and abuse.
it is only a game to those who belong to the group who are currently working out just how to "speak the language of faith" to those of us living in Jesusland and Heebville.
Words make worlds.

#214 not neo just conservative
a rhetorical question! ;-)

#203 Gordon

...if only by not foreseeing the inevitable result of their presumably well-intentioned actions.

Mind-reading, huh? Ridiculous.

#207 Roger

#195 HDMom, hi and welcome!

Thank you, sir.

#212,

Well, maybe.

206 NNJC

Well, there was a little of that in my day - how about a 5 ft 3 in, 105 lb redhead?

When I worked with the Brits, we were allowed to go much further with humiliation than Americans were. Less PCness on that subject over there.

I must say that nice methods worked well for me.

"Oh, you poor lil thang. You say the infantry soldier was mean to you? I will have him punished. Let me get you some soup and a blankey, as soon as you answer my silly questions...."

Personally, I love it here in heebville.

THe schools are good, and there are more accountants than you can shake a stick at!

#216 BabbaZee

Wheeew! My wife would have objected anyway...

210 gymnast

I saw some of that over there this trip, too.

And most people who went into Lyublanka Prison in Russia never came out. These guys get regular visits from Congress - I am a voter, and I don't get visits from my Congressman!

Not Neo -

How come all you good ones are taken? Curses, foiled again....

#32

I propose this bumper sticker as an answer: "Are you liberal or just stupid?"

It would be embarassing to have panties put on my head and pictures taken, but if I have to choose between that and having my head lopped off by fanatics screaming "Allah akbar!", I'll take the panties. At least I'm alive when it's over.

If idiots like liberality, Gordon and absoludicrous were running things, we'd never submit prisoners to anything more stressful than the average job interview. Because we have to give them Geneva convention protections, you know. Then, when the prisoners don't talk, we get no useful information on their plans. And then, when they carry out a terrorist attack that kills Americans, who do you think they blame? That's right, the evil Chimpy Hitler Haliburton Smirking Cowboy.

LLLs are so predictable.

#221 not neo just conservative
Far be it from me to usurp the authority of Mrs. NNJC! ;-)

TMF
Not only that but we have the best bagels!

#218 Dar ul Harb

I don't know about the latter half of your link. The Pershing story has been floating around military circles for at least 20 years. I admit that I didn't read it in a history book.

However, as a parable it stands. You have to fight ruthlessness with ruthlessness and use your enemies weaknesses to your advantage.

I've got an old friend that was with the Marines in WWII. He made landings at Tarawa, Saipan, and Okinawa. All I'll say is that it was a good thing that we didn't have imbedded leftist media types with the troops in the Pacific in the 1940's.

War is not PC in any way and that should hold particularly true when you are fighting a group of people with absolutely no human decency. You fight fire with fire.

Not only that but we have the best bagels!

You might wanna check with Rev. Jesse about that one. He prefers Hymietowns. Better water dont you know!

#225 BabbaZee
#223 Former SSG

The wife is half Italian and half German and gets her temper from both sides of the family. Even if I had the inclination, I'm too scared of her to cross her...

:-)

228 -

Besides, I'd probably like her, and I never piss off a potential friend. Got a single brother?

#218 Dar ul Harb

By the way, both of those posts were primarily to see if I could get Gordons head to explode.

NNJC
You ARE a wise man!

#227 TMF
LOL!

#229 Former SSG

Afraid not. I've got a misshapen lefty moonbat stepbrother if you're in the market.

Nope.

Single brothers-in-arms? Come on now, help a girl out!

Just kidding, I can usually find a guy on my own (on a good day...)

#188 Glackinspeil - You've ruined everything! The BlogAds flew off my screen, and knocked over my Precious Moments figurines.

#226,

I've got an old friend that was with the Marines in WWII. He made landings at Tarawa, Saipan, and Okinawa. All I'll say is that it was a good thing that we didn't have imbedded leftist media types with the troops in the Pacific in the 1940's.

Ain't that the truth.

#233 not neo just conservative
AGGHHH! Euthanasia!

238 Babba-
ROFLMAO

#172 nodroG

If the minutemen really want to stop illegal immigration

Newflash, moonbat: they are stopping it.

#170 not neo just conservative and
#163 Former SSG

Although I know I'm showing my age, what you call SERE used to be called E&E (escape and exfiltration). Before flying off to Cambod, uh, RVN, I spent 10 "lovely" months as an AI at the Jungle Warfare School run by the 8th Special Forces Group. Their idea of a good E&E was after you were captured, they removed your boots and bound your hands behind you and made you kneel on bamboo rods. Every training cycle we'd lose two or three men (lose as in dead) who somehow got out of the POW compound and tried to escape into triple canopy jungle barefoot and with hands tied behind their backs). As a low ranking enlisted member of the cadre, I was assigned to go through the E&E course to figure out what was wrong; it was easy: these guys took their oath to escape so seriously (even in training) that they'd slip between the barrbed wire and run like hell for the jungle, where they'd get lost and be found the next day, having bled out from feet. So I organized a prisoner breakout - managed to get most hands untied, hopped in a conveniently parked duece and a half, and rammed it through the gate to the POW camp and drove back to the school. 15 of us escaped. Did I get a medal, or even an
"attaboy" nooooo - I was accused of stealing government property and had to go back thru E&E again; boy what those SF'ers did to me (and remember, I was attach to the 8th group as part of the training cadre) for embarrasing them with the "great escape" I can't write here cause Charles would have to delete it.

#235 Former SSG

I have every confidence in your capabilities.

We were speaking about SERE school earlier. The thing that trapped me a couple of times was a propoganda shot where they would get you to say or do something that was innocuous but if fed to the media properly made you look like a traitor. This worked on me a couple of times after I'd been kept up for about 48 hours with no sleep.

One time they had me standing against the wall with my hands up. One of the butchy looking female instructors was giving me hell, said I looked puny, and said she could squeeze my hand so hard it'd bring tears to my eyes. I reached out with my left hand to let her try. She grabbed my hand and squeezed. I smiled at her to show how tough I was and she smiled back, threw her other arm around my shoulder, someone took a picture, and presto, there's a polaroid of me shaking hands with the enemy, smiling, with one arm raised like I'm taking a loyalty oath.

Needless to say, I caught a little hell over that one, but it was a good lesson learned, and it was better learned in school than as an actual POW.

#236 Baldy

Never before have blogads reacted so violently to the things I write! Sorry about that.

Speaking of blogads, how many of us need the internet timer thingy worse than our children?

And for some reason, I have the urge to make Jello™ and wear it as a necklace.

#241 realwest

As far as I know, SERE school is the only school that the Marines would let you fail without it destroying your career as long as you did it right.

Apparently screaming "kill me" until the instructors "complied" was considered a passing grade. Hopefully this method has never been used by an actual Marine POW.

Glackinspeil - Sorry to tease. Couldn't restrain myself.

241 and 242 -

What great stories. You are big hearted men, for all you did, and for making fun of yourselves afterward. Aren't the best stories the ones we tell on ourselves?

Thank you.

245-

At school, you get "recycled." In real life, what a waste. I was till at Ft Bragg when they held the memorial service for Nick Rowe, what an outpouring of respect and awe!

Realwest and Not neo -
Are you guys retired now?

#244 Renna
LOL
New Poster -Necklace of Jello, coming soon.....

#241 realwest

I had a really good friend with the 1st SF that got killed back about 1988. I worked with those guys out at Torii Station in Okinawa quite a bit. I even went through their Combat pre-SCUBA course. The Marines that go to SCUBA school are taught by regular Navy divers, so the focus isn't on combat inserts and such. The SF guys had a good remedy for that and their pre-SCUBA was harder than Navy SCUBA school.

On "prisoner abuse," Daniel Pearl, Paul Johnson, Nicholas Berg, and Fabrizio Quattrochi could not be reached for comment.
 

#249 Former SSG

Yeah. I've been out since 1991. I was really ready to hang it up when I left, but there's times I miss it now. I guess the bad memories fade with age, but you always remember the challenges, the good times and good friends.

#172 Gordon

Granted I was off topic pointing out Arizona Senator John McCain's was once again wooing the MSM with another attention-grabbing stunt yesterday re: reducing government waste when I praised the Minutemen for volunteering to "help" our government enforce its own laws on unauthorized entry into our country (or as I prefer to say, "illegal occupation").

The Minutemen are merely pointing out our laws need enforcing.

Unlike those approximately 10,000,000 illegals running around our country for fun & profit, our troops got permission from the UN to enforce UN resolutions, complete their mission, and leave.

Not Neo

I don't know what it is, but standing there in your undies getting mocked by a 5-foot tall blond is humiliating

The Horror.....

William -
Amen to that!

I completely agree with #252. Where was the media outcry when terrorists were sawing off the heads of citizens whilst screaming Allah is great!

I am reaching a state of acceptance that my country may be doomed. Not from the jihadis but from their 'fellow travelers', the American left, the press and American colleges and universities.

The jihadis cannot defeat us on the battlefield, in the marketplace, or even in the arena of ideas. But they have powerful allies on the left, people who see their own country as the source of evil. People who seem to think that they are the 'chosen ones'; if they can tear down the current system they can fashion a new society in which, by dint of their intellectual superiority, they will function as leaders, the conscience of the 'little people.' As a matter of fact, the jihadis are irrelevant in this equation.

Some examples:
- On "InstaPundit.com" Glenn has an item called "Randall Terrys of the Left" describing a protest at a job fair at UC Santa Cruz. The idiotarians gathered to demand, and succeeded on obtaining, the removal of military recruiters from the campus.

The university administration then allowed the protesters to hand out information on alternatives to military careers and agreed to discuss with the students future job fairs --- no doubt with an eye to ensuring that the 'baby killers' not be allowed next time.

One interesting observation from a reader was that the military is less and less inclined to recruit at these schools because they find the students don't make good officers.

- In the Miami Herald today (registration required) an article discusses the 'swarms' of lawyers rushing to defend the jihadis. We have become a nation so full of lawyers that we have allowed 'the rule of law' and 'legal process and procedure' to replace common sense and good judgment.

One can only wonder which part of 'these people are trying to kill you and destroy the very system you to claim to be protecting' don't those on the left understand? The jihadis aren't interested in American jurisprudence, the Constitution and our laws. They simply want all of that to be gone and replaced with a theocracy under Islam. There is no room for the Harvard Law School in their plans.

- The subject of this thread "MSM Congratulates Self on Abu Ghraib". The press spends most of its time seeking a 'gotcha' on the government. But this is not to intended protect the citizens from governmental overreach and misconduct but seemingly simply for the sake of proving they can show the country to be wrong.

Similarly to the lawyers above, these people spend their time helping and supporting those that would destroy the very system that makes it possible for them to function. The jihadis have very clear views on 'the proper role of journalism in an Islamic society'; they do not need the Columbia School of Journalism.

The press likes to use words like 'atrocity', 'war crimes', 'torture' for their shock value. Of all the people in the world one would think that journalists understand that words have true value and true meaning. Used properly words can convey powerful messages; used improperly they are cheapened and nullified, their value degraded.

Babi Yar was an atrocity; the Bataan Death March was torture; Auschwitz was a war crime; Abu Ghraib was a simple misconduct by a few out-of-control people. Their actions need to be punished, but calling Abu Ghraib an atrocity risks reducing the acts at Bergen-Belsen to the level of a fraternity prank.

I'm not sure there is much hope for this America.

#255 Amalie (BG part II)

I had a friend in the same class that was able to, shall we say, ready himself at will without any encouragement. This turned the tables on the female instructors nicely...

#258 JohnSteele

calling Abu Ghraib an atrocity risks reducing the acts at Bergen-Belsen to the level of a fraternity prank.

It already has by some peoples standards.

I think you hit the mark #258. To sum it all up:

Liberalism is a Mental Disorder.

John STeele @ 258

We're Doomed, we're doomed.....

geez John, as long as we are alive and kickin, there's hope...

Not Neo

Did he have a 5'5", 115 pd Mexican chica humiliate him?

#258 John Steele

It is depressing when even POW camp survivor and purportedly grown up conservative defense hawk John McCain would rather mug for the MSM with faux furry pigs to joke about spending federal $$ on groundhogs in Pennsylvania while his state of Arizona's borders are breached & overrun daily by illegals during wartime in the USA and he is mum/absent/running from the issue. What's worse is I suspect he'd have endorsed & let his friend John Kerry run us into the ground.

#263 Amalie

No, but that might have helped my cause a little. My interrogator looked like a bulldog. Needless to say, I had some trouble perfecting his technique.

Not Neo -

I understand. Sometimes I want back in, then remind myself that I'd hold them back, I'm not up to it. I really do miss it though, so I go as a contractor when I can. Iraq can be lovely this time of year....

As for your classmate, that's a guy I'd like to interrogate!

#262 Amalie

I did not say we should stop fighting I am however attempting to provide thought But the forces arrayed against us are formidable.

A few famous lines come to mind:

"Never get in a p*ssing contest with a man who buys ink by the barrel"

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
... John Stuart Mill"

"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a recarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
... Winston Churchill"

Not banning all coverage, but the obsessive day-after-day front page slamming of the US military.

Exactly.

Someone help me out with the facts. Was it the LA Times that ran the story on the front page something like 29 days in a row? Am I exaggerating?

It was the New York Times, and no you're not exaggerating, they ran the story on the front page, above the fold, for 31 days straight.

Conversely, for Nicholas Berg, an American held prisoner who was held down by 5 muslims as he struggled and gasped for air through the blood pouring into his lungs from his slashed throat as a muslim sawed his head off with a knife, the NY Times put that story below the fold.

That's not objective journalism, or even journalism at all, that's promoting the agenda of the enemy, while at the same suppressing information that would outrage Americans. I.e., borderline treason.
 

267 -
what wonderful quotes. Thank you.

#240 carl p 4/7/2005 10:58AM PDT
#172 nodroG

If the minutemen really want to stop illegal immigration

Newflash, moonbat: they are stopping it.

Great Point!

For years, the elites have been telling us they can't do anything about illegal immigration. There's just too many desperate people trying to get across the border and not enough resources.

But, guess what. Since the Minutemen went down there, the Border Patrol stepped up its patrols, and the Mexican government finally started policing its own side... and guess what... illegal crossings have plummeted.

As usual, the elites were lying. Illegal immigration can be stopped... if the government is willing to do something about it.

#266 Former SSG

Wait till August. It'll be about 130 in the shade. I was trying to get back over there with a civilian contractor but they pulled out. It wasn't that there was a huge danger issue, though there was some of that. It was mostly that the military was turning the contracts over to the locals and they weren't sure that they'd get paid if the US military decided to pull out. This was prior to the US election and now that Kerry isn't in the equation anymore, they may head back in. If you head back, and I get over there, and get a chance, I'll look you up. They were up around Tikrit before.

270 Abu Messerschmitt 4/7/2005 11:39AM PDT
... Illegal immigration can be stopped... if the government is willing to do something about it.

What a shock :-)

I have a very simple solution for illegal immigration: Any employer or individual convicted of hiring a person without legitimate documentation is guilty of a felony punishable by 5 years in prison and a $100,000 fine for each occurrence.

Illegal immigration will stop when there is no opportunity for employment.

Not Neo -

I know, I like the heat. I was there twice now for a total of 18 months. I may be going back. I am awaiting an offer letter with a start date of Apr. 18 for a FL job. But these things often fall through, as you said.

SAIC, CACI and L3 all want to talk to me about going back, but the terms have to be right. I like the Green Zone, and for my job, it's better to be there or actually in Baghdad. My parents are also resistant to me going back, but I think they'll get over it if the security continues to improve.

I really need to get a job, so I stop pestering all you nice people...

#272 JohnSteele

The only problem there is that the illegals can get around all current ID requirements with no problem if they don't stay around more than a year.

I've had illegals hire on with me using a fake drivers license, a "borrowed" SSN, and a false address. You don't know they're illegal unless emigre comes and gets them or their tax forms come back as undeliverable. By then they're usually gone anyway.

Not Neo -
If you go over, what kind of job? Maybe I can help. If so, email me a resume, and I'll pass it along to all the fine folks I know in the bidness...

#273 Former SSG

I know what you mean. I'm currently chasing projects in Algeria, Libya, Nigeria, Peru, and Iraq (if my contractor heads back there). I've spent so much time in the third world that it doesn't bother me anymore. My shot card is up to date and I'm ready to travel. Now if I can get one of those pesky things called a job, I'll be in good shape.

Just out of curiousity, Not Neo and former SSG, what kind of jobs DO y'all go over there to do?

276 - Not N.

I know what you mean. I am a go anywhere anytime sort of person, and I actually like working, and miss it. I am serious, let me know if I can help.

#275 Former SSG

My civilian background is in pipeline work, primarily buoyancy control, but I'll try my hand at anything.

My military background is in Spec. Ops. I've got experience in Deep Reconnaissance, Raid Ops, Demolitions, and Hostage Rescue. However, I'm 40 and I've been out for 14 years. There's younger, more up to date, and better trained guys out there.

I'll send my resume if I can get the LGF thingie to work.

#277 SwampWoman

Mostly what I'd be interested in would be security work or pipeline work. That's about the only two things I know. I can drive a truck too, but those guys are targets, unarmed, and I tend to grind the gears on the downshift...