What can I say ?

No surprises here.

It doesn't count when Jews die.

Kind of like how yesterday's perps are "terrorists" according to the BBC and Reuters, but when Jews die violently, the cause is "militants."

the attacks in Israel are in a "different" category?

Imagine my surprise...

pity that the Al-Sun and Al-Guardian cannot see the forest for the trees, terror against Israel cannot be "more justified" than against England.

sven10077 you are an idiot.

The Sun is not a Left wing paper, and is the only newspaper in the UK to follow the bombings with this kind of non-PC report.

As a result the Sun is hated and despised by the Guardian and BBC. It is also one of the best selling newspapers in the world.

And this is a surprise? We've already seen the Zionists knew beforehand about the London attacks - the conspiracy theories, the nutbarism - and a selective reading of history - the reaction is entirely predictable.

OT:

John Derbyshire thinks Britain will do a Spain!

Here, though, you come to another equation in the calculus of appeasement. Is the United States willing to fight this war the way it needs fighting, with grim ferocity and cold unconcern for legalistic niceties? To lay waste great territories and their peoples, innocent and guilty alike, to level cities, to burn forests and divert rivers, to smite our enemies hip and thigh, to carry out summary execution of captured leaders? Of course not — how barbaric! And yet (whispers the ancestral, tribal voice in our heads, and in British heads too) if not, then what’s the point? War is a tribal affair, one tribe exterminating another, or reducing it to utter impotence and ignominious surrender. That’s what war is, and it isn’t anything else.

It's the world's blind spot. That said, The Sun usually isn't the enemy.

Armstrong and Getty, who you can listen to here were all over the anti-Semitic reporting of the AP yesterday morning. They absolutely (and correctly) reamed Drudge for promoting and then not retracting and refuting the "Jews-Knew" story.

Those Jews don't count...who you think set them up there, anyway! Ironic...Brits didn't want Jews in the UK after WWII, so sluffed them off to one of their fading colonies...but decades later they are in the throes of dhimmitude.

The Jews do not count. In British eyes they deserve every misfortune that befalls them.

Al-Sun? The Sun is one of the most right leaning papers in the UK. Richard Littlejohn is a regular columnist. It's just your usual inky tabloid (Page 3 girl and all)...this was a major oversite...but I would suspect it's down to stupidity rather than PC'ness (something the Sun is hardly famous for) if you've ever read the rag. (I work for the opposition so yes, before you ask I'm biased).

What do they care about that sh*tty little country?

/heavy sarc

#9 bouzouki 7/8/2005 08:25AM PDT
OT:

John Derbyshire thinks Britain will do a Spain!

Here, though, you come to another equation in the calculus of appeasement. Is the United States willing to fight this war the way it needs fighting, with grim ferocity and cold unconcern for legalistic niceties?

The answer to that has been obvious since about Oct. 2001.

Jews knew in advance - see, they can't die - they have wonder magic - so no need to care about them

well, the G8 gave 3Billion to the paleos on 7/7/05

see, terrorism does work!

The root cause of terrorism is its success

THIS IS NOT OT:

why list the crimes of the paleonazis when the G(roup of) 8 (Idiots) gives them 3 BILLION DOLLARS on the day when London is attacked ?

Appeasers, frigging appeasers.

#17 Mglazer

Eh ! Same minute, same subject !

#7 Londonderry,

No, I am a realist. The Sun omits plenty of Arab on Israeli terror without even a footnote saying "too numerous to list". One cannot excuse the callousness of the omissions based on preferring the editorial bent of the paper vis a vis the Beeb.

That the Sun and the Beeb ignore Israeli terror tells me that *oddly* the British press doesn't seem to consider the Palestinian fun and games against Israel to be "terror".

I notice that Al-Guardian returned to form today with Tariq Ali's screed.

Did I just dream this or, the day after Britain suffered its worst ever terrorist incident, did Tony Blair just announce a $3 billion aid grant to the Palestinians?

Well THAT doesn't look like kowtowing now, does it Tony?

Anyone in my country feeling a little traumatised may do well to reflect that this sort of attack was a weekly occurrence in Israel until they built the anti-terror wall and assasinated the successive leaders of Hamas.

You can't get psychotics to calm down by being nice to them.

What folly befalls the fools

the day of 7/7

1. guards protect those who attack them

2. give money to the PLO

3. calls to stop fighting those who attacked them

hmm wonder whose winning here?

Can modern western civilization fight the necessary fight to win or are they destined to falter and give in to any demands murderers desire?

Why would attacks in Israel be counted? In the simplistic worldview of the LLL, MSM, and the Eurabians - Israel IS behind all this terror!

All kidding aside, the list is rather selective: no Beslan, for instance. But, it's better than a lot of the standard MSM misinformation; i.e. placing the blame on the "Al Qaeda" red hering, the usual "religion of peace corrupted by a tiny minority of extrmeists...blah, blah, blah..."

If England---and the rest of the world---doesn't get over its hatred and fear of the Jews and its idealization and affection for beautiful, tolerant, Arabian Nightly Islam (sarc.) we're all in trouble. . .

It's Europe, what do you expect? Murdering Jews doesn't count as terrorism to them, only when you murder people I suppose. And yet they don't seem to understand how excusing the atrocities inflicted on Israelis has made the Muslims feel more and more justified in committing and supporting terrorism. Now the terrorism the Euros have worked so hard to legitimize is striking them at home. Congrats. Write another check to the Beeb. Long live the intifadah.

Contacted the BBC yesterday to ask them why the bombings in London were terror, while bombings in Israel were not. The reply said they "were only quoting people talking about the attacks." A lie of course, demonstrated by the link I'd provided them as well as many others. Then they said that they try not to use a word like "terror," but several officials had used it so they went that direction.

Just wait for the next blast in Israel though, when officials call it terrorism. The Beeb will have another policy. "Don't change the subject, we're talking about the Jews!" I'd actually respect them slightly more if they simply said "Look, we don't think it's possible to commit terror against a Jew. They damn well deserve it." But honesty is in short supply in the MSM.

Neither does it show any islamic terror attacks in India.

There is a perception problem. Israel is percieved as being a (perpetual) war zone, similar to Iraq, and so such occurences are "normal". This isn't "normal" in London (although it was when the IRA was doing it).

The Sun is not an Idiotarian paper. They are working class, from what I can tell (from reading the Web Site) and generally support the WoT.

The Sun is the paper that calls Chirac "The Worm", and was the leading anti-Mullah Hook/Finsbury Mosque paper.

I suspect they cribbed that from some quick reference guide, or some such. Oversight, rather than maliciousness.

Wow. I do find it quite amazing everytime I see stuff like this that Israel is totally ignored.

it's like it doesn't count.

Well no surprises that Reuter's is singing the muslim propaganda song loudly today:

Arabs fear backlash after London bombings

"In spite of the fact that all acts of 'Islamic' terrorism blatantly contradict Islamic teachings, such acts serve to further distort the image of Muslims and Islam," it said.

Saudi Arabia's mufti, or top religious official, Sheikh Abdul-Aziz al-Sheikh, said the bombers violated Islam. "The explosions in London...targeted the faithful as a whole, and this has no basis in Islam. It is forbidden by our religion."

As-Safir newspaper condemned the "terrorists" who struck at the heart of London. "But this doesn't cancel the fact that occupation is terrorism against people, whether American as in Iraq or Israeli as in Palestine," it added.

"You (Blair) should not forget that al Qaeda was created by big powers. America is the father and Israel is the mother of al Qaeda," he declared. "The aim of Qaeda's creation was to cause problems for Iran. Now it causes problems for its founders."

Outright lies, moral equivalency, "we're the real victims" and "you're the real terrorists.

All par for the course for the islamic propaganda machine known as "Reuters".

I've got to defend the Sun - it's one of the few media outlets to actually staunchly defend Israel and cut through the bullshit

I guess there just wasn't enough room on the graphic!

aurelian: You make an excellent point. No Beslan, no Moscow theatre, no Thailand beheadings, no Kashmiri violence. I guess they don't consider any territorial disputes worthy of mention, even though it's glaringly obvious that Islam has bloody borders.

26 suds_9

India doesn't count. Too many religions and to many poor people living in train stations.

A few dead here and there in a country of 1 billion doesn't count either.

Just reading through it, makes me think they got the office junior to do it. Proof?

when the header says

MORE than 4,000 people have died as Islamic terrorism has spread across the world over the last decade. Here we highlight some of the worst atrocities:

and then list

6. DEC 23 2001: Shoe bomber Richard Reid foiled trying to blow up flight from Paris to Miami.

as an atrocity. Dumb just doesn't cover it.

I'm gonna agree with uptight on this one. The Sun is a Murdock paper isn't it?

I keep wanting to think that it was an oversight...but even that might not be true.

#31 UT,

and as I said not even a footnote. They did not even post necessarily the highest bodycount attacks, and as such I am suspicious of the list. I like the Sun and use it in rebuttal against adherents of Al Guardian all the time, but this omission and their handling of Israel on the whole have me ranalyzing the utility of it.

Sorry to ruffle feathers, but if FoxNews for example came out and tried to pass off a new Protocols of the Elders of Zion they would be in my sights too.

Israel is not less worthy of the supposition of safety and security as her baseline than ANY state, and ANY slouching in that direction hurts the security of us all.

Yeah, I'm gonna go with a combination of blunt stupidity and a decision that territorial disputes/civil war (ie Sudan, Nigeria) don't qualify as "Islamic terror."

At least they are able to bring themselves to link islamic with terror in the same phrase.

The west will never win this war until they agree that murdering Jews is also wrong.

#38 MommyDoc,

and that is why I prefer them to the Guardian, that said it is distressing to me that our best European ally seems to have such difficulty putting their eye on the ball let alone keeping it there.

sven

omits plenty of Arab on Israeli terror without even a footnote saying "too numerous to list".

I was going to mention that maybe they left out terrorism in Israel because it would make any list three times as long, but you're right. I was giving them too much credit. If that were the reason, a footnote or a combined entry would be appropriate. But instead, nothing.

Even if they're increadibly PC, they can't ignore the early warning to the UK: the "Mikes Place" bombing by two muslim British citizens.

Unless they have a slightly thick skull that is.

#30 Geepers

From the mad mullah words:

occupation is terrorism against people,

SURE ! So get your muslim invasion away from Persia (Zoroastrian), Pakistan (Buddhist-Hindu), Thailand, Philippines, North Africa (Christian), Central Africa (Animist) and whatever other Country or area in the world you have conquered and reduced to poverty and despair in the last 14 hundred years !

They do mention the attack on Israelis in Kenya and the attack on the synagogue in Turkey, but it's still disgusting.

Not as disgusting as the G8 giving the Palestinians ANOTHER $3 billion and then Blair saying that the terrorists won't change the G8's agenda.

In the Sun's defense, if they had listed EVERY Muslim terrorist attack, their paper would weigh over 20 lbs.

My two cents: I think the omission of any mention of attacks on Israel is based on the perception that the "Israeli-Arab conflict" is political in nature and not religous. Keeping in mind that the PLO prior to the rise of Hamas was pretty much secular, without an islamist agenda. Also there is no mention of attacks in Russia by Chechens (surely the horror of Beslan warranted a mention) but again I suspect that the preception is that the Russian Chechen conflict is political.

#38 mommydoc 7/8/2005 08:44AM PDT
Yeah, I'm gonna go with a combination of blunt stupidity and a decision that territorial disputes/civil war (ie Sudan, Nigeria) don't qualify as "Islamic terror."

That's my guess. Overall, the whiners in here continue the tradition in the pro-Israel lobby of biting the hand that feeds them.

No surprise.

The Daily Star, another shitty tabloid, had a pretty good summary of yesterday's events. With a picture of the destroyed bus taking up the whole front cover, the headline was simply 'BASTARDS'.

#18 Poltiers-Lepanto

It's like a bunch of world leaders sitting in a conference room, all pretending not to notice the 800 pound gorilla shitting (not sitting) on the table, then feeding it more bananas.

To accurately list the thousands upon thousands of terrorist attacks you need a whole web site.

MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base

[Link: www.state.gov...]

Send them and email and give them the opportunity to explain the ommision of Israel attacks.

A comprehesnsive list doesn't exist. Or does it? Send it.

IVV

#47 dr,z3n,

The Sun hardly feeds me, nor does it feed the "pro-Israeli" lobby. I did not force it to choose the parameters of its graphic, and I feel no guilt over reminding people that the left and right in the UK press seem united in saying "Israel does not count". I'll pick the Israelis over the Pals 9 times out of 9, and the Israelis over Europe 8 out of 9.

#50 Geepers,

I am aware of that, and as such would have been happy to see a footnote. Instead they omit several bloody and savage attacks in several nations. I do believe that in their eyes certain Muslim terror is "political", but "political" terror is still an affront to civilization.

We will NOT defeat terrorism until, like the worst days of Piracy we unify and declare it out of bounds. That is not to say that Piracy no longer exists as it always has and will, but it is no longer considered a valid tool for use by governmental bodies to exert policy. The ENTIRE west needs to demand the same of Islamia on the matter of terror.

#53 sven10077 7/8/2005 08:51AM PDT
#47 dr,z3n,

The Sun hardly feeds me, nor does it feed the "pro-Israeli" lobby.

In Britain, that's what you have to work with. They are the pro-WOT voice in the British media.

I did not force it to choose the parameters of its graphic, and I feel no guilt over reminding people that the left and right in the UK press seem united in saying "Israel does not count".

That is what you get for feeling instead of thinking.

I'll pick the Israelis over the Pals 9 times out of 9, and the Israelis over Europe 8 out of 9.

Only 8/9? That qualifies you as an anti-Semite here at LGF.

53 sven10077
You are correct. With the exception of the Daily Telegraph, the British media both right wing and left wing have one thing in common- a loathing of Israel.

That is true-really pathetic lacuna on the part of the Sun. The thing is that that Europe by too often ignoring or making excuses for terrorism directed for decades against Israel, have actually emboldened the Islamic terrorists who are now turning their sights on Europe, as evidenced by the recent atrocities in Spain and Britain.

The clear lesson of WWII is that when you ignore evil commited against against others, it is only a matter of time before the evil doers turn their attention to you.

sven10077,
In case you haven't guessed by now, dr.z3n is an agent provocateur.

#58 whosoever 7/8/2005 08:58AM PDT
sven10077,
In case you haven't guessed by now, dr.z3n is an agent provocateur.

[Link: www.dictionary.com...]

I could be called lots of things by those such as yourself who do not care about the accuracy of their words--but that's a simple mis-used term in this case.

#58,

I have gathered. I am pro-Israeli at all times, and a supporter of their actions most. What the dear dr.z3n does not grasp is that there is NO lithmus test here beyond don't be an anti-semite or idiotarian on the WoT.

Its nothing compared to the two-facedness of the Daily Mirror. In the Voice of the Daily Mirror, it runs the headline "We will not be beaten" then at the same time Kevin Maguire of that same rag asks "Was it because of the war in Iraq?". That paper is a virulent hater of Bush, as its front page ran "How can 59,000,000 voters be so dumb?" after Bush won back in November.

As for Islamic nations, whenever a natural disaster befalls such a nation, no way will I donate a single penny to those ungrateful and savage devil-worshippers - a policy I have maintained since Luxor back in 1997.

This is very annoying. On one hand, it is good because it does illustrate very clearly that terrorism=militant Islam. But then it goes and TOTALLY ignores Israel, as if she doesn't exist. And is af she has not borne the brunt of Islamic terrorism for many years.

What gives?

#49 The Fountainhead

It's like a bunch of world leaders sitting in a conference room, all pretending not to notice the 800 pound gorilla1,200,000,000 marching army of invaders, and terrorists are only A TINY MINORITY of it (eh eh)... shitting (not sitting) on the table, then feeding it more bananasNUKES (by omission), Kalashnikovs, bombs.

#45 Big

In the Sun's defense, if they had listed EVERY Muslim terrorist attack, their paper would weigh over 20 lbs.

More like two tons.

This is an outrage.
There is no excuse for this.

Bombing at the Hebrew University, July 31, 2002: A bomb hidden in a bag in the Frank Sinatra International Student Center of Jerusalem’s Hebrew University killed 9 persons and wounded 87. The dead included 5 U.S. citizens and 4 Israelis. The wounded included 4 U.S. citizens, 2 Japanese, and 3 South Koreans. The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) claimed responsibility.

How can this, for example, not be considered a terrorist attack. One of many in Israel.

Poitiers-Lepanto (#43),

Hypocrisy, thy name is islam.

#60 sven10077 7/8/2005 09:01AM PDT
#58,

I have gathered. I am pro-Israeli at all times, and a supporter of their actions most. What the dear dr.z3n does not grasp is that there is NO lithmus test here beyond don't be an anti-semite or idiotarian on the WoT.

Okay, let's now bring logic:

If they had malaice of forethought in their omission, and were seeking to short-hand Israel, they yet would have included (not to mention hundreds of other attacks in other parts of the world) the (few) terrorist attacks committed by Israelis against Palestinians.

59 dr.z3n

It is a term commonly used to describe someone whose job it is to stir up the crowd. Insulting the regulars here qualifies.
Maybe a more accurate (but overused) term is troll.

It's like a bunch of world leaders sitting in a conference room, all pretending not to notice the 800 pound gorilla shitting (not sitting) on the table, then feeding it more bananas.

So Michael Moore is at the G8 meeting?

dr.z3n says:

That qualifies you as an anti-Semite here at LGF.

Speak for yourself.

Hmmm, Baghdad anyone?!

Oh, yeah, that's right, there's no Al Qaida in Iraq, sorry, I seem to have forgotten about that.

Btw, Jamie Rubin was on the BBC last night reciting a list of places that terrorists had bombed. Naturally, Baghdad was not on that list.

#68 whosoever 7/8/2005 09:10AM PDT
59 dr.z3n

It is a term commonly used to describe someone whose job it is to stir up the crowd. Insulting the regulars here qualifies.
Maybe a more accurate (but overused) term is troll.

Ah, yes. Whereas troll = someone whom I disagree with, yet causes me to be unable to bring a signifigant argument to bear.

I like this one:

Fascist: anybody who has won an argument with a liberal.

In this case, someone fitting that term would be saying:

"we need to nuke the mid-east and london for their anti-semitism!"

This sort of agent, you see, "poisons the well" for the entire group, causing the group to be subject to actions in response to the agent. It's like if a policeman dressed up as an anarchist at an anti-WTO rally. Even if all the other communists were peaceful, he could throw a brick or three and subject the entire group to dispersal.

I, on the other hand, seek truth, hate lies, and really hate self-pitying exaggeration.

#70 Geepers 7/8/2005 09:12AM PDT
dr.z3n says:

That qualifies you as an anti-Semite here at LGF.
Speak for yourself.

I am. I've made a comment very close in nature that his: "I support Israel 8/9 . . ." and that was all that was needed. =]

Israel and the Jews are and always have been the canary in the mineshaft.

The Islamofascists terrorize Israel and the Jews and know that the rest of the world will just sit back and watch. And when the terrorists get good enough at devising new ways to kill us, they take their craft and unleash it on the rest of the world. Just as they did on 9/11, and 7/7 in London, Madrid, Bali, etc...

Ignoring Islamist terror against Israel won't make it go away. It just makes emboldens the terorists to dream bigger.

Some people are just going to have to learn this the hard way.

61 SpiritOf1683
I too will not contribue one penny for relief of any Muslim nation.
67 dr.z3n

If they had malaice (sic) of forethought in their omission, and were seeking to short-hand Israel, they yet would have included (not to mention hundreds of other attacks in other parts of the world) the (few) terrorist attacks committed by Israelis against Palestinians.

Please give me an example of an Israeli terror attack on Paleos?

Big surprise from the country that whitewashed Rachel corrie and demonized Jews.

They left out the thoudands killed in the name of Allah in Indonesia,Kenya,Sudan,Algeria,India,Bangladesh,Som alia,Ethiopia,Congo,Thailand,Phillipines,Russia,Ch echnya,Uzbekistan,Pakistan,Myanmar...

—and totally ignores the multiple atrocities in Israel that have maimed and killed thousands of civilians.

Hate to tell you almost everyone ignores that when
equating world wide terror attacks.

Of course one day after that horrific attack in London the G8 gave the palestinians 3 billion. Further proving the War on Terror has nothing to do with Israel. Imagine for one moment the insanity of instituting such a sham as a road-map to peace with world terrorists! Yah, the guys that planned the attack in London. The ones who are killing our our soldiers and innocent Iraqi's. Perhaps we can rehabilitate them with a state of their very own. Of course that means we would have to give up quite a big chunk of our land and security to achieve this. Not to mention pretending they were not hell bent on destroying you and me.

Imagine giving the palestinians 3 billion for wanting to include Hamas in the freshly cleansed (on the outside) fake democracy? At the same time Abbas says he will not disarm terrorists. At the very same time he sits in the terror state of Syria with baby Assad talking about right of return and making Jerusalem the UNDIVIDED CAPITAL OF PALESTINE.

So in the equation of terror attacks around the world we wonder why Israel is often not included? When Abbas came to the White House and was called a "great man of strength and courage" should we have any further doubt? At the rate we are legtimizing killers of Jews with money and words of praise, tell me what does this have to do with the War on Terror? In truth these acts go one hundred percent against the War on Terror. Everyone knows it too, including our enemies.

While media bias is worse than awful, I am not nearly as angry with them as with those who should know better.

Sec'y Rice on BBC: Terrorists must be defeated [except Palestinian terrorists?]

A truly great interview but another example that the war on terror completely excludes Israel. We are the evil occupiers..you know.

SECRETARY RICE: ... This is a worldwide war against ideals. If that is indeed what has happened, if that is indeed who's behind this, we just have
to remember there's no separate peace to be made with terrorists[IMRA:
except Palestinian terrorists - they can be put on the payroll of the security forces] The terrorists are after our way of life and we have to defeat them [IMRA: Except Palestinian terrorists - they have to be co-opted into the parliament]. There is no other way to deal with them than through strength [IMRA: Except Palestinian terrorists: they have to be won over with concessions and operations against them should be restricted out of concern for the "process"]

...you have to fight this war on the offense >b>[IMRA: and retreat in Gaza].
That's why you have to take away territory from places like Afghanistan [IMRA: and give it in northern Samaria]. That's why you have to fight in the mountains of Pakistan. That's why it's important to have new and stable
democracies in the Middle East in places like Lebanon or Iraq. That's why you have to fight this war on the offense and win against not just the terrorists who perpetrate an attack on any given day, but the ideology of
hatred that spawns it.

... But in the longer run, our goal has to be to replace this ideology of hopelessness and hatred in the Middle East with freedom and liberty, which when people are living in freedom and liberty, they don't want to send their children off to be suicide bombers [IMRA: But if the Palestinian leadership
praises their "martyr" suicide bombers...] .

I feel that in hunting down the those who ordered and perpetrated that horrific attack yesterday we must exercise the utmost restraint as to not to prejudice the final outcome.

#75 Joel 7/8/2005 09:18AM PDT

Please give me an example of an Israeli terror attack on Paleos (sic)?

[Link: www.state.gov...]

Hebron Massacre, February 25, 1994: Jewish right-wing extremist and U.S. citizen Baruch Goldstein machine-gunned Moslem worshippers at a mosque in West Bank town of Hebron, killing 29 and wounding about 150.

=]

#74 QueenEsther 7/8/2005 09:17AM PDT

Some people are just going to have to learn this the hard way.

We're all going to have to learn this the hard way. In the soon-to-come age of WMD-terror, those lessons will be more expensive than ever before.

#78 TS

WTF is it that everyone seems to be forgetting about Iraq?

79 dr.z3n
Baruch Goldstein was acting by himself and was immediately condemned by the entire Israeli poltical spectrum. Bad example. That is like blaming Timothy McVeigh on Bill Clinton or Jack the Ripper on Queen Vicotria. You have to do better then that.

#80 dr.z3n

I tend to agree with that outlook. Most people just aren't getting it. Above all, it's the PC which is killing us and even in light of yesterday's attorcities, the usual suspects, sadly including Blair and other "good" guys, are parading their RoP BS all over the fucking place.

To be fair, they listed the attack against Jews in Turkish synagogues, the attack against mainly Israeli tourists in Taba Hilton resort. The reader had to have background knowledge in order to know who these were directed at.

Also, one would seriously question why there were no mention of the terrorist attacks against Christians in Nigeria or Christians in Irian Jaya, animists in Sudan, Buddhists in Thailand. Terrorist attacks in some of these places are not well documented, and the number of victims could in fact be higher in Nigeria for example, than in Israel. Let's not lose sight of those evils too.

#44 - cba

Not as disgusting as the G8 giving the Palestinians ANOTHER $3 billion

While they still have Arafat's billions stashed in the bank.

#61 SpiritOf1683
#75 Joel

I too will not contribue one penny for relief of any Muslim nation.

By virtue of paying taxes, you both are, big time.

79 dr.z3n
By the way the term Paleos is not a misprint. Their mentality belongs to the cave man era.

Baruch Goldstein was not acting as an agent of the Israeli government, nor of Israelis or Jews in general, and was roundly denounced by the vast majority of Jews and Israelis. Kach was outlawed.

Close, but hardly "Israeli terrorism." Thanks for playing. Please try again.

#81 rednaxela

I didn't post #78

In my post I didn't list any country that had already been mentioned,that would be redundant and a waste of bandwidth.

86 rednaxela
Not voluntary.

Joel (#82),

You have to do better then that.

Nah. See in dr. z3n's world a single individual who snaps and a worldwide ideology, systematically preaching, planning and perpetrating terror on a near daily basis = exactly the same.

88 mommydoc
He/she/or it/ called dr.z3n
is extremely ignorant. Goldstein was a lone wolf who was not acting for the Israeli government, as a mattter of fact he was trying to embarass the Israeli government.

#84 - Robert O.

To be fair, they listed the attack against Jews in Turkish synagogues

Yes, but a vast majority of non-jews died in that attack.
Likewise for the ancient Synagogue in Jerba, Tunisia - all the victims were European tourists, mostly German IIRC.

#82 Joel 7/8/2005 09:24AM PDT
79 dr.z3n
Baruch Goldstein was acting by himself and was immediately condemned by the entire Israeli poltical spectrum. Bad example. That is like blaming Timothy McVeigh on Bill Clinton or Jack the Ripper on Queen Vicotria. You have to do better then that.

. . . not the entire political "spectrum".

What you're doing here is qualifying. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but if you allow yourself to get away with it, you must allow the other side same in order to remain intellectualy honest.

The point is, the situation is that the Israeli / Arab conflict does need lots of qualifications. Did the Jews fight their way in and use terrorism to expel the British? Yes. Are the Arabs a part of a 13th century death-cult which blows up anything it disagrees with? Yes.

91 Geepers
He/she is jsut a trolland I knew he would dredge up Goldstein. He/she/ probably thinks that the USS Liberty was deliberately attacked knowing that it was an American ship and when you ask he/she/ for the motive, will probably come up with a new one just after you shoot down the preposterous one he brings up. Don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up is the mantra.

#89 TS

Sorry, my bad.

It just pisses me off that every fucking talking head that's been paraded on TV these past 24h has strangely omitted Iraq as a place where terrorists blow people up, as has The Sun, as have posters here.

Anyway, even if one were to stipulate that most of these terrorists are Sunni insurgents or whatever, Zarqawi sure isn't. Even the UN admits that blowing up their HQ in Baghdad was the work of Al Qaida.

It's just mindboggling how people assume that Iraq is a different kettle of tea altogether.

#91 Geepers

I bet he doesn't remember the guy in LAX shooting up the El Al terminal,nor consider it an act of terrorism

#91 Geepers 7/8/2005 09:29AM PDT
Joel (#82),

You have to do better then that.
Nah. See in dr. z3n's world a single individual who snaps and a worldwide ideology, systematically preaching, planning and perpetrating terror on a near daily basis = exactly the same.

This isn't the first time someone who doesn't understand what I'm saying tries to "explain it" to others.

Let me guess--public school?

#96 rednaxela

NP

94 dr.z3n
You are doing a John Kerry nuance dance. Goldstein was condemned by every Israeli of poltical persuasion except by a few lunatic Kahanists. Stop trying to parse and play games. If Goldstein is the best you can dredge up then your argument prima facie is as false as a $3 bill. Nice try but a pathetic try at that. Go back to looking up conspiracies on Pat Buchanan websites or The Nation magazine.

#97 TotallySirius 7/8/2005 09:34AM PDT
#91 Geepers

I bet he doesn't remember the guy in LAX shooting up the El Al terminal,nor consider it an act of terrorism

No, I do. I also consider the shooting of Ehud Barak terrorism.

#90 Joel

Too true.

This is where W. is being really hypocritical. In terms of stem cell research he says that he cant have that funded via ordinary tax receipts since so many people have fundamental objections, but when it comes to sending the "Palestinians" huge amounts of cash, such considerations apparently don't apply.

#95 Joel 7/8/2005 09:32AM PDT
91 Geepers
He/she is jsut a trolland I knew he would dredge up Goldstein. He/she/ probably thinks that the USS Liberty was deliberately attacked knowing that it was an American ship and when you ask he/she/ for the motive, will probably come up with a new one just after you shoot down the preposterous one he brings up. Don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up is the mantra.

I know from personal experience in USMCT that the fog of war can be deadly, and in this case, was. The USS Liberty had no business being where it was.

There *are* incidents, however, where Israel was implicated in terrorism aimed at American citizens.

#101 dr.z

Then there is hope for you.

How do you feel about the assassination of Theo Van Gogh?

#101 dr.z3n

Ehud Barak was shot?!

#104 TotallySirius 7/8/2005 09:37AM PDT
#101 dr.z

Then there is hope for you.

How do you feel about the assassination of Theo Van Gogh?

I still hold out hope for you, however.

The Van Gogh assassination? That they didn't throw out every Muslim in the country shows their inability to manage this problem.

103 dr.z3n

There *are* incidents, however, where Israel was implicated in terrorism aimed at American citizens.

Elaborate please.

talkback@the-sun.co.uk

Don't let them get away with it. Politely inform them of the thousands of Arab attacks against Israel. Palestinian violence and terrorism - and that's just since 2000.

#105 rednaxela 7/8/2005 09:41AM PDT
#101 dr.z3n

Ehud Barak was shot?!

err, Rabin. However, your apparant intentional misunderstanding is noted.

dr. z3n says:

This isn't the first time someone who doesn't understand what I'm saying tries to "explain it" to others.

Do You attribute your inability to accurately articulate your sentiments to your inferred superior "education" or is it that you're just a crap weasel who thinks we're too fucking stupid to see through the game you're playing?

#107 Joel 7/8/2005 09:43AM PDT
103 dr.z3n

There *are* incidents, however, where Israel was implicated in terrorism aimed at American citizens.

Elaborate please.

Well, the Lavon Affair qualifies.

#110 Geepers 7/8/2005 09:45AM PDT
dr. z3n says:

This isn't the first time someone who doesn't understand what I'm saying tries to "explain it" to others.
Do You attribute your inability to accurately articulate your sentiments to your inferred superior "education" or is it that you're just a crap weasel who thinks we're too fucking stupid to see through the game you're playing?

I was wondering how long it would take for the name-calling to start. =]

I do, however, attribute my inability to accurately articulate my sentiments to a lack of surf--which is going to be cured as soon as the tide shifts.

108 Spiritualized

It is not just the media.

There is plenty of outrage to go around. The media is just one actor in this folly.

Was anyone killed in that affair (nice try going back to 1954)? You are starting to sound awfully desperate as wella s pathetic Mr. Buchanan.

. . . while you're reading about the Lavon Affair (and no doubt trying to find information which would debunk it), let me say this--which may help:

". . . Martin Luther King was an adulterer, the world is a messy place." -Ann Coulter

/he also plagiarized his Doctoral Thesis!

115 dr.z3n
You are getting kind of pathetic, try finding something within the past say 40 years.

Apart from the daily jihadist assault on Israel, the Sun also leaves out the countless attacks by jihadists in the Philippines, Indonesia (other than Bali), Southern Thailand, Kashmir/India, Sudan (both Dafur and the much longer attacks on Christians/Animists in the south of the country) and attacks in Nigeria.

It also leaves out all the terrorist operations that have been prevented like the 1998 attempt to crash a plane full of people into the Eiffel Tower, and the attempt to bomb Strasbourg Cathedral and the nearby Christmas market on New Year's Eve in 2000. All of course now safely lost down most people’s memory hole. Why, every bombing is the result of Iraq, and there were no bombings before the Iraqi invasion.

What the Sun shows is just the sanitized tip of the iceberg.

But apart from that, islam is the religion of peace. No, really it is. Mr Blair said so.

And for dr.z3n's next trick, he'll dredge up the Bob Novak version of the attack on the USS Liberty.

#116 Joel 7/8/2005 09:58AM PDT
115 dr.z3n
You are getting kind of pathetic, try finding something within the past say 40 years.

And out roll the qualifications. . .

#118 David Simon 7/8/2005 09:59AM PDT
And for dr.z3n's next trick, he'll dredge up the Bob Novak version of the attack on the USS Liberty.

I'll have to google that when I get back.

That is really pathetic dredging up the Lavon Affiar

They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths.

of 51 years ago.

119 dr.z3n

And out roll the qualifications. . .

When you take your finger out of your ass maybe you can think clearer Mr. Buchanan.

#80 dr.z3n

We're all going to have to learn this the hard way.

Some of us already know what the terrorists would like to do to us, and try to clue the rest of the world in. Can't say we didn't try to warn them.

#109 dr.z3n

Seeing as your #109 was the first time the name "Rabin" was mentioned on this thread, I don't quite understand what you think might have been intentional about my conduct. You're the idoot who obviously can't keep these people apart.

I've been trying to give you the benefit of doubt here, even agreeing with you on an earlier issue, but your defensive posturing suggests that you are just a sad and insecure individual.

Have a nice day.

If I'm reading that map correctly, they also left out the synagogue bombed in Argentina.

#124 rednaxela

but your defensive posturing suggests that you are just a sad and insecure individual.

Most paleocons are.

#120 dr.z3n -

I'll have to google that when I get back.

Try not to blow your load when you do.

You latent anti-semites are pathetic.

Oh, ok, this is not to be taken seriously. They note they mean to highlight 'the worst' of the attacks. Ha. If you ignore the map and just look at the timeline it looks like nothing much happened until AFTER 9/11/01. The attack immediately preceeding that was a WHOLE THREE YEARS EARLIER.

Then the pace really picks up.
It's all Bush's fault.

#128,

yup notice the omission of the November 1995, car bomb exploding in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, killing five Americans?

That gets omitted even though they include the "shoe bomber" and the March 17 2002 church attacks in Pakistan.

I'd really like to have a talk with the person who came up with this timeline.

That is an awfully large flag, now that you mention it, David Simon.

Let me guess--public school?

..showing itself for the elitist wanker it is.

Well, as the daughter and niece of dedicated public school teachers, I am the proud product of a public school education, as is my brother. Between the two of us, we have:

BA: Cornell, Duke (multiple honors, including but not limited to magna cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa, AB Duke scholar)
MBA: Cornell
MD: Albany Medical College, Duke (multiple honors including several merit scholarships and honors)

And neither of us could be confused for an idiotarian.

STFD and STFU.

#127 David Simon 7/8/2005 10:10AM PDT
#120 dr.z3n -

I'll have to google that when I get back.
Try not to blow your load when you do.

You latent anti-semites are pathetic.

What, exactly, makes me an anti-Semite?

You have ~2 hrs.

/surf's up

#111 - dr.z3n

from the link you provided:

They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths.

And judgin by the text, that was clearly intentional.

Sounds more like weaselness and criminal stupidity rather than terrorism.

132 dr.z3n
While you are at it (dredging up Baruch Goldsteina and Pinhas Lavon) try to work in the name Jonathan Pollard into your posts about those awful Juden.

94dr.z3n

The point is, the situation is that the Israeli / Arab conflict does need lots of qualifications.

How's this for a straight forward non qualification statement: You are an idiot.

#132 dr.z3n -

You have ~2 hrs

I only need two minutes. You outed yourself with #130.

Every country makes mistakes, and every country has its skeletons. Digging up decades-old dirt on Israel is a favorite tactic of Buchanan, Novak, Geyser et al.

dr.z3n (#130),

That is an awfully large flag, now that you mention it, David Simon.

Dear god, lets hope this is not an accurate articulation of this goofs sentiments, and is some sort of lame attempt at sarcasm.

They didn't put Palestinian kilers on there because there wasn't enough room. And if they just put one cirle on there with a grand total of Jews killed they would get filleted for bias.

And Beslan and Moscow.

It also doesn't mention the Chechyan Islamists' theater fiasco, the Daniel Pearl beheading, the Nick Berg beheading, the Cole attack, etc. There's a LOT they missed on that map - probably wouldn't be able to fit all the incidents big and small on that map...

I guess chopping people's heads off in southern thailand doesn't count as terror either...hmmm.

I understand why people are upset about this because it doesn't seem right not to include the terrorist atrocities carried out in Israel when talking about global terrorism.

However, as a daily reader of The Sun I can say in their defence that they always call attacks on Israelis acts of terrorism and always refer to those that perpetrate them as terrorists.

While I feel excluding Israel from this map is wrong in this case, The Sun has always stood by and defended the right of Israelis to live in peace without fear of terrorism, unlike many other more 'liberal' British newspapers.

That's part of the reason I buy it every day.

143 Jwarrior
I am not familiar with the Sun. However if I lived in the U.K. I guess the Daily Telegraph would be the first paper that I would read.

Joel,

The Sun is really a comic newspaper. Nothing like The Telegraph. I like it for the football mainly as I like to get my real news from the net these days! :D Oh, and Page 3 ain't bad!

However, when something bad happens here in the UK or anywhere in the world, The Sun usually manages to say the right thing to the nation unlike more 'intellectual' papers like The *spit* Guardian.

When you consider that The Sun is the highest selling paper in the UK and read by the average Brit on the street (who can be quite dumb sometimes!) then I think it is a good thing.

How much longer it'll take the Europeons to realize that though they themself might cathegorize between 'Palestinian terror' and Islamaniacs, in the eyes of the terrorists their worth equals Israelis? A few decades of "palestinians" killing Europeans and Americans when they could not kill Israelis should have been enough, no?

145 Jwarrior
As long as The Sun is not a typical hate Israel British newspaper, then it is alright in my book. Besides I have seen it during my many visits to London and they have nice photos of women sans tops in it!

buzzsawmonkey #138 -

Excellent post, with one nitpick: The Gypsies were also targeted for extermination on the sole "racial" ground that they were Gypsies, and they were also exterminated wherever they were found by the Nazis throughout Europe solely because of who and what they were.

However, nobody cared about them, either. There was a lot of prejudice and hatred against Gypsies among the majority population, and countries like Romania which had significant populations of Gypsies were all too happy to be rid of them (just as they were ecstatic to have the Nazis rid them of Jews).

The reasons that there were many fewer of them murdered than Jews were:
There were many fewer of them in the general population to begin with, and
They were less assimilated and a lot more mobile, so more of them simply picked up and fled than the Jews, who, for the most part, stayed where they were and were trapped.

#136 David Simon 7/8/2005 10:36AM PDT
#132 dr.z3n -

You have ~2 hrs
I only need two minutes. You outed yourself with #130.

Every country makes mistakes, and every country has its skeletons. Digging up decades-old dirt on Israel is a favorite tactic of Buchanan, Novak, Geyser et al.

The fact is that the USS Liberty Incident (which I never brought up, btw) has never been fully resolved. Is that anti-Semitic?

#150 dr.z3n

Sure it has. Because it has not been "resolved" to the satisfaction of the anti-Semites, ie. declared a deliberate and open Act of War by Israeli Jews against the gentile USA, doesn't mean it hasn't been resolved.

Hey, isnt this the guy who said the root of terrorism is the unqualified support of Israel?

It can hardly be said that Britain is an unqualified supporter of Israel.

And yet they got hit.

I guess there are alot of sources of terrorism.

Such as terrorists.

150 dr.z3n
It has been fully resolved. It was mistaken identity just like the US accidentally shooting down the Iranian air bus. You loony Buchananites have never come up with a good reason why Israel would knowingly attack a US ship.

The fact is that the USS Liberty Incident (which I never brought up, btw) has never been fully resolved. Is that anti-Semitic?

Yes, it is anti-semitc and so are you.
It has also been disproved:

[Link: web.israelinsider.com...]

New documents released this week by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) prove that Israel's 1967 attack on the USS Liberty was accidental. The Israeli attack on the American surveillance ship during the Six Day War, which killed 34 U.S. servicemen and wounded 172, has been a controversial and disputed chapter in Israel's relations with the United States.

Last week, the NSA released additional information relative to the June 8, 1967 attack on the U.S.S. Liberty. The information included three audio recordings, transcripts (in English), three follow-up reports, and a U.S. Cryptologic History Report entitled "Attack on a Sigint Collector, the U.S.S. Liberty."

The documents, originally classified as "top secret," were made public according to the U.S. Freedom of Information Act and at the request of Florida Federal Judge Jay Cristol, who has been investigating the Liberty incident for years and published a book on the subject last year, Haaretz reported.

#106 dr.z

Your response to my #103 proves we have no beef.

Keep holding out hope for me,my friend,for I am old and set in my ways.

buzzsawmonkey #149

I agree with you. Hitler's primary goal was always the elimination of the Jews, and the machinery to accomplish that was first and foremost created and intended for us. Believe me, I understand the uniqueness of the Holocaust; I have had many, many discussions and arguments with those who advance the "lots of people were killed in World War II, including Jews, and lots of people have been killed since then by Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hutus, Serbs, etc." argument.

All I wanted to make clear (mainly for others reading this thread) was that, unlike homosexuals, Communists, dissident priests and other religious people, Soviet POW's and others, who were killed (mostly in concentration camps through starvation and disease, rather than immediately in gas chambers) because of their political views, combatant status or "immoral" behavior, Gypsies, like Jews, were targeted for extermination based on nothing more than their ethnicity and were also sent directly to death camps like Auschwitz.

#152 TMF 7/8/2005 01:00PM PDT
Hey, isnt this the guy who said the root of terrorism is the unqualified support of Israel?

It can hardly be said that Britain is an unqualified supporter of Israel.

And yet they got hit.

They are an unqualified supporter of the 'Great Satan'. And being "Great Satan" isn't worth it.

#154 piglet 7/8/2005 01:05PM PDT

The fact is that the USS Liberty Incident (which I never brought up, btw) has never been fully resolved. Is that anti-Semitic?
Yes, it is anti-semitc and so are you.

. . .then so is our Government.

So. The Government, myself. . . whom else? The aliens?

London is getting back to normal after the Islamic loonfest. Nobody I know was hurt - thank God - and about the closest anyone came (of my acquaintance) was a colleague who was on a tube to Kings Cross: they were stuck underground for one hour before being led along the line to safety, past the carnage.

One weird thing: another colleague was evacuated at Bank station at 7am - over an hour before any of the bombs. Why the early alarm?

I'm actually a bit surprised as the editorial page of the Sun is conservative. Of course, this is conservative for Britian, where the strangehold on the liberal media (coupled with the lack of religion) has caused even people who consider themselves conservative to be at best ambivalent toward Israel.

The NSA is apparently talking out of both sides of its mouth:

In January 2004, the State Department held a conference on the Liberty incident and also released new documents, including CIA memos dated June 13 and June 21, 1967, that say that Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel. The historian for the National Security Agency, David Hatch, said the available evidence "strongly suggested" Israel did not know it was attacking a U.S. ship. Two former U.S. officials, Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attache at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel, and John Hadden, then CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv, also agreed with the assessment that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake.

Here's the link for detailed information on the USS Liberty incident and its resolution:

USS Liberty facts

As the evidence clearly shows, especially the transcripts of Israeli transmissions (which the US confirmed as to content), the incident was resolved to the satisfaction of the US Government, although there are veterans of the Liberty who continue to insist that the attack was intentional.

The fact, never contradicted by the US Government, is that the US never informed the Israelis of the presence of the Liberty, the Israelis never saw a US flag and believed the vessel to be Egyptian.

So. The Government, myself. . . whom else? The aliens?

Be honest, you have never posted on the internet regarding the capture and TORTURE, of the USS Pueblo (spy ship) by North Korea.

You hate jews, many people do, it's ok, embrace it.

"Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you!"

Here is a copy of what I sent the Sun. What a bunch of F***ing bastards.

Caught your online photo display on Islamic terrorism since 1993.
Very interesting. What I found most revealing was that you did not
mention any of the attacks that have occurred in Israel. Guess
murdering Jews isn't "evil" in your book, eh? Next time you are doing
a display on evil across the planet, don't forget to mention
yourselves. It is your indifference (or tacit approval?) of the
murder of Jews in Israel that creates the moral climate in which
terrorism can breath and draw sustenance. You really should be
ashamed of yourselves.

You always know an antismite the moment the Liberty is mentioned... Actually they cannot not mention the Liberty... Next stop: Dar Yassin...

Why is it that when Buchananites find themselves in a hole, they haul out a bigger shovel?

160 Amy

Also one of the two Mirage pilots who attacked the Liberty was Yiftach Spector who is hardly a right wing zealot. He was one fo the retired pilots who criticized the targetting of Paleo terrorists. The latest moonbat theory was that the IAF attacked the Liberty 'cause we were listening in on a massacre of Egyptian prisoners. That is total bullshit. Israel captured and eventually released thousands of Egyptian and other Arab prisoners. Someone has estimated that in modern war, at leasts 20-25% of all casualties are "friendly fire" incidents. Even in the Six Day War it is estimated that at least 50 Israelis were killed by friendly fire.

165 Spiny Norman
Buchanites such as PB himself, Justina Raimondo, Scott McConnell, Taki, Paul Craig Roberts, Eric Margolis, Jospeh Sobran, Kevin McDonald, etc. are the scum of the earth.

165 Spiny NOrman
You can ad Charley Reese, Doug Bandow, Robert Novak to that list as well.

164 Pitiricus

You always know an antismite the moment the Liberty is mentioned... Actually they cannot not mention the Liberty... Next stop: Dar Yassin...

Actually the litany goes like this: USS Liberty, Deir Yassin, Jonathan Pollard, China arms sales - as if the US government never used agents inside Israel to gather information, and as if the US government never sold weapons - F16 jets, F15 jets, F104 jets, M1A1 tanks, M48 tanks, 155 mm artillery pieces to Nazi Arab nations such as Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Aabia and the so called Palestine Authority.

159 The Christopher
In Britain conservatives are not similar to conservatives in the US when it comes to Israel. Many if not most conservatives from what is called "Little England" have absorbed the BBC world view towards the Jewish State. Margaret Thatcher was the exception in the UK, Ronald Reagan was not the exception in the US (regarding Israel). Ted Heath (a Tory PM in the early 1970's) was as friendly towards Israel as Georges Pompidou of France was.

As someone who goes to The Sun website almost daily, I too am disappointed..but the Sun is usually right on in it's editorials

they are VERY pro-American while their counterparts aren't

I only hope they can explain their HUGE oversight

The Sun's Selective Evil

No more selective than that of of Mr. Moral W. Clarity himself.

they are VERY pro-American

Like I said, you can't expect them to be holier than the pope.

On friendly fire incidents:

Accidents caused by “friendly fire” are common in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by “friendly fire.” In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with large U.S. flags painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a clear day in the “no fly” zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. In April 2002, an American F-16 dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. In fact, the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns.

#162 piglet 7/8/2005 01:33PM PDT

So. The Government, myself. . . whom else? The aliens?
Be honest, you have never posted on the internet regarding the capture and TORTURE, of the USS Pueblo (spy ship) by North Korea.

I take second to none in my unmitigated disdain of communism(ists).

Still, you're going "apples and oranges." There's no way the Pueblo incident was non-intentional whereas there's little reason for the Liberty incident to have been intentional. There's simply no reasonable motive.

In honor of the crew of the USS Pueblow, I now flip all communists the bird.

OT, but do you think the shepherds had a daily post-breakfast ritual and the sheep were just tired of it?

Poor sheep.

mommydoc #176 -

LOL! Suicidal sheep!

Hi, girlfriend!

#141

More not noted ---

Abu Sayyaf attack on Philippines ferry (116 dead)

Luxor massacre in Egypt (74 dead)

Here are some of the terrorist attacks against Israel, until June 2002
[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

A list of major terrorist attacks against Israel during the time period September 2000 to August 2003
[Link: www.ajn.com.au...]

Not surprising since they also forgot to mention several beheading victims, the USS Cole, and BESLAN!

Then again a complete list would fill what - an encyclopedia - and intrude upon Page3.

181 EE,

Informative link. On an Australian site of course.

It may be that to many people, the terrorism against Israelis is completely invisible. That's how they can demand that Israel remove the anti-terrorism fence. If they see no terrorism against Israelis and do not hear about any terrorism against Israelis and cannot imagine any terrorism against Israelis, then why would Israel need an anti-terrorism fence?

It might turn out that Derbyshire is right.

Note how supine was Blair's first reaction -- addressing the perpetrators: "You will not break our spirit".

What he should have said is, "We will break your necks."

buzzsawmonkey #178

This thread appears to be dead, but I still wanted to say that I take your point and think you're right. Thank you for all of your very thoughtful and well-written comments.