LGF

Freedom of Speech as a Weapon

Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 9:35:26 pm PDT

British tabloid The Sun notes the insanity of allowing Islamic propagandist Tariq Ramadan to address a London conference—partially funded by London police: Abuse of Britain. (Hat tip: Ethel.)

JUST five days since 7/7 — and the flagrant abuse of Britain’s freedom-of-speech laws is laid bare yet again.

Extremist Islamic scholar Tariq Ramadan, who backs suicide bombings, is to address a London conference part-funded by police.

This man’s suspected links with terrorists are strong enough for him to be banned from both America and France.

But in our bomb-hit capital he is being given a platform to speak — while the victims of Britain’s worst terror atrocity wait to be buried.

Ramadan is no ranting Abu Hamza or Omar Bakri. He’s more dangerous than that.

He is a soft-spoken professor whose moderate tones present an acceptable, “reasonable” face of terror to impressionable young Muslims.

In one breath he condemns the horrors in London and Madrid. But through seemingly reasoned argu- ments he justifies similar attacks where Muslims are oppressed.

Ramadan has muddied the waters enough for the Met and ACPO to believe him a reasonable man. They should not be fooled.

And rank-and-file bobbies, who reacted with such extraordinary courage last Thursday, will rightly be outraged if the Force has any involvement with him.

Sponsoring community projects is entirely laudable. Giving the oxygen of publicity to an apologist for terrorism is not. Especially with the Tube and bus bombings so fresh in our minds.

The police must pull the plug without delay. And Home Secretary Charles Clarke must move swiftly to ban Professor Ramadan from our shores.

We don’t need scholars justifying suicide bombers and analysing for us the grievances that drive them.

We don’t need lectures on understanding the monsters who slaughtered innocent Londoners.

To hell with them. And to hell with this professor too.

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535 comments

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1 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:37:23pm

The beginning of the end for England.

2 tankdemon  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:38:32pm

There is a huge difference between allowing idiots to speak their minds and sponsoring idiots to speak their mindlessness.

3 Elcid  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:39:22pm

Freedom of Speech as a Weapon

That is exactly what is occurring in our country, as well. The use of our freedoms to extinguish them

4 Northpaw  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:42:03pm

Britain is going to have to come to terms with these people in their own way. I do suspect that here in America we'll be hearing a little less sneering condescension over the Patriot Act and maybe they'll even give Gitmo a rest for a week or two.

5 Mike C.  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:51:19pm

You just gotta love that last line.

6 religion of bacon  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:51:25pm

And exactly one year ago:

CAIRO – London Mayor Ken Livingstone will host on July 12 [2004] a one-day conference on hijab at the Greater London Authority to defend the Muslim women’s right to wear the headscarf, an organizer said on Wednesday, July 7.

Organized by the nascent Pro-Hijab, the conference brings together a cohort of leading Muslim figures, a British Member of Parliament and Members of European Parliament (MEPs).

“We, individuals and organization with the same aim of protecting religious freedom, open this conference to defend the Muslim right to wear hijab,” Pro-Hijab activist and Treasurer Rajnaara Akhtar told IslamOnline.net over the phone from London.

She said Head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research Sheikh Youssef Al-Qaradawi will be the special guest of honor.

[...]

“You see, we invite people from all sectors to express different viewpoints. Sheikh Qaradawi will express the Islamic point of view, Mrs. McTaggart the British government and we have also Dr. Tariq Ramadan, who will address the audience about the significance and status of the hijab in Islam,” Akhtar said.

7 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:53:00pm

It would just take a London Bobby or two to sit in the front row loudly and visibly munching a bag of pork rinds and standing every so often shouting "murderer" while every other police official in the place stands silently by to turn this thing around.

Do they have pork rinds in England? I'll send a bag if they need some...


D. Edgren

8 blutonazi98  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:53:06pm

if they do arrest any suspects; i sure hope the english media is as concerned of their rights as they were of the detained at gitmo

9 Carl B  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:55:41pm

Anyone who tries to justify some form of terrorism as acceptable provided it meets his particular political test or social agenda must be immediately condemned. There is never an explanation. There are no good terrorists. There is no acceptable cause. Period. End of discussion.

10 Geepers  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 7:57:26pm

Want to be sick?

Read this fawning piece of crap from Time:

Innovators - Tariq Ramadan

Tariq Ramadan has the measured delivery of an academic, which is no more than you would expect from a man who used to be a high school principal and wrote his doctoral thesis on Nietzsche. But as the leading Islamic thinker among Europe's second- and third-generation Muslim immigrants, the Geneva-based university lecturer also inspires a good deal of mistrust—from both Arab Muslims for his Western sensibility and Westerners for his controversial Islamic roots. Ramadan, 38, is the grandson of Hassan al-Banna, founder, in 1928, of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamic revival movement that spread from Egypt throughout the Arab world, criticizing Western decadence and advocating a return to Muslim values. Yet Ramadan says, "I'm a European who has grown up here. I don't deny my Muslim roots, but I don't vilify Europe either."
11 religion of bacon  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:02:18pm

#10 Geepers

advocating a return to Muslim values

a.k.a. the "back to beheadings" movement...

12 ted  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:04:29pm

The implosion of England,IMO, has gained a tremendous momentum in a very short time...It has literally caught up with and jumped ahead of France, Spain and Germany...I once thought the British would fight to save themselves fom the parasitation and destruction of their way of life and country, but now it appears they've become a full fledged member of the Eurabian Union with complete dhimmi status...

13 quark2  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:04:42pm

Insane. Just like the judge here who set bale for a child predator so low he had no problem
covering it.
How the hell have we allowed those who are incompetent to be in charge?
These people are as dangerous as the jihadis.

14 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:07:12pm

To heck with the Bobbies, I wish Tony Blair had the balls...

A little food for 'Slim thought...

It's time for a Billy Jack moment in dealing with these people. The leaders of Western nations have to understand that people can only be pushed so far. Some politician, somewhere, will seize the moment sooner or later. All the PC in the world won't save little Abdullah after that.


D. Edgren

15 transferthem  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:07:35pm

Why not arrest him for incitement?

16 carefulnow  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:07:49pm

Not really OT
Has this been posted already? Hitchens

We know very well what the "grievances" of the jihadists are.
The grievance of seeing unveiled women. The grievance of the existence, not of the State of Israel, but of the Jewish people. The grievance of the heresy of democracy, which impedes the imposition of sharia law. The grievance of a work of fiction written by an Indian living in London. The grievance of the existence of black African Muslim farmers, who won't abandon lands in Darfur. The grievance of the existence of homosexuals. The grievance of music, and of most representational art. The grievance of the existence of Hinduism. The grievance of East Timor's liberation from Indonesian rule. All of these have been proclaimed as a licence to kill infidels or apostates, or anyone who just gets in the way.
17 piehole  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:08:44pm

Living On A Thin Line

All the stories have been told
Of kings and days of old,
But there's no England now.
All the wars that were won and lost
Somehow don't seem to matter very much anymore.
All the lies we were told,
All the lies of the people running round,
They're castles have burned.
Now I see change,
But inside we're the same as we ever were.

Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Living this way, each day is a dream.
What am I, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?

Now another century nearly gone,
What are we gonna leave for the young?
What we couldn't do, what we wouldn't do,
It's a crime, but does it matter?
Does it matter much, does it matter much to you?
Does it ever really matter?
Yes, it really, really matters.

Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?

Now another leader says
Break their hearts and break some heads.
Is there nothing we can say or do?
Blame the future on the past,
Always lost in blood and guts.
And when they're gone, it's me and you.

The Kinks

18 blutonazi98  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:08:53pm

innovator?

i did not know an innovator was an illogical piece crap that thinks it is gods work to talk a retard 16 year old into exploding in a crowded bus or mall.

19 # 17  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:11:20pm

It should be understood that Tariq Ramadan and many other "Western" Moslem leaders have actually been subverted by the lures of the West, and are dangerous to Islam. When that realisation dawns on true Islamists, they will know that their duty involves removing such people.

Of course the police may never find their killers.

20 theheat  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:13:53pm
This man’s suspected links with terrorists are strong enough for him to be banned from both America and France.

Banned from France? What the hell does someone have to do to be banned from France... not know what wine goes with fish?

21 jwm  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:15:17pm

Islam is the disease. Ramadan and his ilk are the vectors. How do you get rid of malaria?
JWM

22 Cornholio  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:18:19pm

#14 D. Edgren

Some politician, somewhere, will seize the moment sooner or later.

I don't understand why this hasn't happened yet. I know there are plenty of politicians on the side of the "good guys" in the U.S., but as far as I know, there is not a single member of Congress who will speak as openly about the terrorist threat as, say, Victor Davis Hanson - or any of the posters here at LGF!

23 ted  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:19:00pm

The fastest and easiest way to get banned from France is to be against beastialty...

24 miklos rosza  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:20:03pm

nicholas sarkozy -- at that time minister of the interior -- appeared on french tv with tariq ramadan and verbally kicked his ass a year or so ago.

the french have been assholes publicly but internally they arrest more muslims without anyone complaining than england or germany could ever dream of. they have experience and attitude going back to algeria in the 1950s.

chirac fucking with us is another, separate matter entirely.

25 eddiespaghetti  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:21:07pm

To JWM: You drain the fever swamp!

26 religion of bacon  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:24:18pm

Robert Spencer would probably have (or more likely, has already had) a field day fisking some of the lovey-dovey stuff on Tariq Ramadan's web site, e.g.

Nothing in Islam can legitimize xenophobia or the rejection of a human being due to his/her religious creed or ethnicity.

Riiight, it must just be a mis-translation where the Koran says:

Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.
(Sura 9:5)

Then there's the ever-popular hadith:

"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
(Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, #177)

But of course that's "not Islam."

27 kyer  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:25:57pm

"To hell with them. And to hell with this professor too."

Ex-ce-llent.

OT-- Does anyone else agree with me that Scott McClellan is just a big soft teddy-bear?

I wish we had someone tough who could speak firm and bite back...like that Zionist hypnotist Ari Fleischer. Scott just didn't seem solid enough when the press corp was nailing him about Rove today.

28 jwm  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:27:18pm

You kill the mosquitoes.
JWM

29 Catttt  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:29:54pm

I really like the quote (from an Indymedia UK whiner who posted about "the horrors" of being jailed in Scotland) attributed to a Scottish jailer:

"Fuck off, you foreign bastard."

Let's apply it liberally, where it is warranted. In this case, it is (well, strictly speaking, he is not a bastard - literally - so we'll use it figuratively).

30 religion of bacon  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:30:49pm

#28 jwm

Oh, for the good old days when the mosque-itoes would just kill each other and leave us alone...

31 J.D.  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:32:25pm

Deadly Tolerance

...Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al Qaeda chief in Iraq, sent a thank you note to the Dick Durbins and Ted Kennedys of Congress in a message to his followers and sympathizers on July 5. According to an unreleased translation read to me by a Defense Department source, Zarqawi's message exhorted his terrorists to greater effort, because, Zarqawi said, it is very clear that America was being defeated in Iraq. Zarqawi's proof? His message said that the proof that America is losing is that some American congressmen are saying just that.

IT IS ESSENTIAL TO THE war that our enemy has no reason to doubt our resolve. Winston Churchill knew that. His ringing speeches, throughout the war, and especially in its darkest hours, were literally the fuel that propelled British courage when everyone, including many of his closest advisers, thought all was lost. When Dick Durbin compared our people at Gitmo to Nazis, Gulag guards, and Pol Pot's mass murderers, there was a short burst of outrage, quelled by his phony apology. Senate Republicans never demanded -- or got -- a clear and unequivocal apology from Durbin. By their failure to do so they give credence to Zarqawi's message. ...

32 carefulnow  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:35:01pm

jwm

eddiespaghetti was right.

We can’t get rid of mosquitoes; they have a tremendous ability to adapt. But maybe we can help them evolve into less harmful insects

From this article about malaria.

33 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:35:11pm
34 Dead Sea Squirrel  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:36:44pm

#7 D. Edgren

Do they have pork rinds in England? I'll send a bag if they need some...


black pudding should do the trick.


#17 piehole

You really got me

35 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:40:49pm
36 carefulnow  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:46:58pm

Rayra re #70

Hmm hm hm, hm-hm, hm hm hmmm...come on sing it with me, you know the words!

37 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:47:06pm

Since the evening Open Thread isn't up yet, I'll post it here.

I've been on Fark.com most of the evening arguing with Kossacks and Buchananites over aid to Israel. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly the antisemites pour out of the woodwork whenever a story about Israel is posted. The difference between the reaction of a bus bombing in London and a bus bombing in Tel Aviv is disturbing, to say the least.

It's disturbing because these assholes are my fellow Americans.

38 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:53:19pm

Piehole, oh yeah!

Ray and Dave...

they were Capital "G" Gods.

[lookin' for Arthur, or Something Else, as we speak]

This is not the real England- Churchill shit bigger than Tariq Ramadan.


D. Edgren

39 religion of bacon  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 8:57:52pm

#35 Rayra

Well now, if you go to Tariq's site, he says that no explanation whatsoever was given for his visa being revoked. It was purely a matter of suppression of his free speech and academic freedom.

Yes, another case of those poor "moderate Muslims" being victimized by the evil US...

40 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:00:57pm

Cornholio...

What you said!

It's comin', dude. It's comin'. And if it's a democrat, I'll vote for her (him, it, WTF) anyway. Twice, even.


D. Edgren [I grew up in the Chicago area in the 50s and 60s- needless to say, I know how]

41 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:06:48pm

Islamofascists can hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings, intent on the butchery of thousands; but we have to know we are wrong and soul search for why they are angry at us. They can behead prisoners; but we have to be indicted of phantom abuse. They declare a holy war to impose a 7th Century system of Government/Religion that treats 1/2 of the human race as inferior; but we have to understand that their beliefs are superior to anything the Western world offers.

Hopefully the tipping point in this WoT finally has become unstable, and will be evident to show the average person just how evil, demented, and perverse the "Religion of Peace" (Copyright © Muhammad C.600AD) has become when used as a bludgeon by such twisted individuals like Bin Laden or Khomeini. Until most people remove the self-imposed blinders by seeing the truth of the heinousness of the Islamofascists, this will be a tough up-hill slog for victory.

42 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:13:27pm

DSS, re #34...

I guess it will...Urrrp!


D. Edgren

43 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:25:42pm
44 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:26:42pm
45 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:30:09pm

Rayra, kid...just you'n me, I guess.


D. Edgren

46 rightasrain  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:31:01pm

Also lurking... ;)

47 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:34:10pm

's like, you know, On the Beach or somethin'

Scary shit, dude. Scary shit.


D. Edgren

48 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:35:35pm

rightasrain...thank God- I thought the terrorists had won or somesuch.

Strength in numbers- now we are three.


D. Edgren

49 Mike C.  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:36:51pm

# 45 D. Edgren

There are others about, but it's hard to post AND work at the same time.

50 rightasrain  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:37:54pm

#48 D. Edgren

Strength in numbers- now we are three.

We're missing the Israelis - they musta overslept. :)

51 scotch  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:38:25pm

slow evening so...
I checked this site out after work

[Link: www.komando.com...]
it's a computer help site/radio b-cast for those that don't know her and she had this

[Link: www.commentarytoday.com...]

for catching up on politics. it's a list of lefty loon editorials and righty tighty ones.

Haven't sorted through it all yet but it might help someone sort though alot of muck for helpful commentary.

52 Bayou_King  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:38:55pm

Yours Truly, Confused N10
Written by: Raymond Douglas Davies

Published by: Davray Music Ltd.


Lyrics:
Dear sir or madame, I don't normally write to the press
But the neighbourhood where I grew up is really quite depressed.
Society is crumbling but the media's obsessed with boobs, bums,
Dot com, millionaires, fame, fashion, footsie shares
But people they couldn't care less.

While parliamentary yobbos shout abuse around the house
Do-gooders and reformers lead our nation to defeat.
While murderers and terrorists get compassionate release
You're out now. You're back on the street yeh, back on the street.

That's why I remain yours truly, confused N10.

I close my eyes and lay back and I think of England.
I dream about that green and pleasant land we knew as England.
That throne of kings, that sceptred isle set in a silver sea
Has turned into a laughing stock divided without harmony.

That's why I remain yours truly, confused N10

The burglars have ransacked all the houses in the street
While Mercs and Posches double park with sheer impunity.
When towed away the ponces plead to all and sundry
Referee what about me?

So forgive my lack of confidence and total low esteem
But the dog eat dog society has deemed us all has-beens.
While our smiling bland spin doctors slyly lead us down the track
to a stab in the back.

I'm much too terrified to go out at night but the television's boring.
They're vandalising all the cars on the street
but I won't lay down and take defeat.

That's why I remain yours truly, confused N10

Thank you goodnight

53 rightasrain  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:40:34pm

#52 Bayou_King

Were you born on the Bayou? ;)

54 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:45:06pm

Mike:

Work, work, work. Work, work, work. Work, work, work. Hello boys, have a good night's rest, I missed you.

Governor LePetomane had it right. All work and no play makes Mike C. a dull boy.

Comin' up on the hour before midnight in Alaska. I've written most of my best closing argument in the next three hours or so, with the help of friends like J. Beam, J. Daniels and those folks who invented gin.

Lighten up- c'mon out and play!


D. Edgren

55 Bayou_King  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:48:20pm

#53 rightasrain
my folks were . . . i came to my senses & came back from where they had moved to!

lots of open space, cheap rent ($475/mo 2-bdr. house on 7 acres land), cops don't mess with you, can shoot fireworks on july 4th, great food, nice people, fishin' dancin' - what's there not to like?

56 Ackomanyuki  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:48:27pm

The Grandson of Hasan Sabah, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood IIRC. Hand picked by his relatives to infiltrate Western institutions. Phd. in Islamic jurisprudence from either U. of Cairo or Al Azar, then on to Bern for a Degree in philosophy, doctoral theseis on Neitzsche. Scary dude, google him for info on the above, I may stand to be corrected as I am citing from memory. He has a paper on minority jurisprudence in Dar al Harb. Essentially the systematic use of the West's liberties and current multi-cultural ethic to petition western goverments to allow muslim communities to conduct their own civil affairs per sharia law. It is intended as an incremental process whereby they shal gain evetual control through eclipsing birthrates vis a vis 'Westerners an become the political majority and then applying Sharia law universally. He is the most dangerous man out their IMHO, Bombs only cause us to argue and be devisive, this guy is the Paul Tillich and Reihnhold Neibhur of the Taqiyyah spewing assimilationist Muslim Triumphilists that set out after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire to slowly and patiently bring down Christiandom. This man should be turned out by every academic and institution with any sense of self prservation and desire for the continuance of the Western Tradition. He was denied an academic visa by the USDOS when he was supposed to fill a visiting chair at the Kroc institute for peace at Notre Dame of all places. A dissimilating saracen was to be seated at a chatholic University. Wake Up people. Once again google this guy and you will care less if OBL is ever caught or killed. Pardon the typos my keyboard is fouled up.

57 Ak oilfield worker  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:48:41pm

#54 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)

What part of Alaska are you in, if you don't mind me asking. I live in Kenai.

58 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:52:00pm

B_K #52

Ray's still got it. Thanks.

#50 rar-

Asleep or awake- Israelis kick ass. Plus, they've read their Frost ("good fences make good neighbors, etc. etc.").


D. Edgren

59 rightasrain  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:53:22pm

#55 Bayou_King

lots of open space, cheap rent ($475/mo 2-bdr. house on 7 acres land), cops don't mess with you, can shoot fireworks on july 4th, great food, nice people, fishin' dancin' - what's there not to like?

Sounds wonderful!

60 rightasrain  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:57:14pm

#58 D. Edgren

Asleep or awake- Israelis kick ass.

Yeah!

I remember being in a Jewish chat room late one night - it was really full but few people were talking.

Everyone was just sort of lingering and saying hi a bit. Someone else came along and asked "What are you guys doing?"

"We're waiting for the Israelis."

A bit later, Israelis started logging in and the party started! ;)

61 Bayou_King  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:57:51pm

course ya do gotta get used to the heat & humidity, but you DO adjust. it's hell from june-september, but that makes you appreciate the other months that much more. spring and fall are heaven. try visiting in march-april or october-november sometime & you'll see what i mean :-)

62 rightasrain  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:58:57pm

Nice, Bayou_King!

63 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 9:59:19pm

Akow #54

MSB, jus' down the road from Wild Bill (RIP). God's country, even if you don't believe in one.

You're from Kenai... I thought Kenai was just a place where folks from Nikiski went to shop.

Good on you, wherever you're at.


D. Edgren

64 Bayou_King  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:00:22pm

#58 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel) 7/11/2005 11:52PM PDT

B_K #52

Ray's still got it. Thanks.
---
does he have the England/terrorist situation nailed, or what?!
that's a song came out around 2000-2002, and might be on the long-awaited solo album

65 Ackomanyuki  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:03:32pm
66 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:05:21pm

B_K-

I wuz in Bayou Country once, and all I remember was feeling like the Wicked Witch of the West after gettin' doused by Dorothy. Besides, T. and J. Fogerty can take me back anytime I want to go...

"Bawn on a bah-yoo, how how how, bawn on a bahhh-yooo."

God's country, like Buckaroo Banzai- "Wherever you're at...there you are."


D. Edgren

67 Ackomanyuki  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:10:23pm

Link to report on Islamic Minority Jurisprudece

Soryy, I got my Islamofacsists confused, the good doctors Gramps was Hasan Bannah sp not Sabbah. Sabbah is Persian, these folks are Egyptian.

68 Manker  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:11:24pm

Belgium: PA textbooks not anti-Semitic

Wait for it...

Although a new report states that some Palestinian Authority textbooks feature descriptions of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as being an "integral part" of Zionist history that was approved in "a confidential resolution of the First Zionist Congress," the Belgian government says it is continuing to fund production of the textbooks and does not consider them offensive.

So teaching that the zionists conspiracy is reality, is not anti-semitic. Is this before or after the belgian gov't gave a 'heil hitler'.

69 Bayou_King  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:12:20pm

Toto, we're not in New Orleans anymore, and this ISN'T a Hurricane ;-)

70 Ak oilfield worker  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:12:24pm

#63 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)

You're from Kenai... I thought Kenai was just a place where folks from Nikiski went to shop.

LOL, that is a good one. Pretty soon those folks in Nikiski will be able to get there a little easier as they are widening the highway to 4 lanes. Can't figure out why. I am currently at work in the Great white North on a rig. Take it easy.

71 Manker  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:20:20pm

Gaza mosque welcomes London attacks

Now I bet they're really happy about those 3 billion.

72 piehole  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:20:24pm

Terrorist Gang Used Military Explosives

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

73 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:22:23pm

#64 B-K

Ray's had it nailed since about 1963.

I remember when "You Really Got Me," all two minutes or so of it, first came pounding out of the speaker in dad's New Yorker.

He looked pole-axed. He TURNED IT UP.

I knew then, it was going to be all right.


D. Edgren

74 Ackomanyuki  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:23:11pm

Cached article on Ramadan that was orginally published in a European orientalists publication that has removed it's link to the original article.

75 Darius_LaMonica  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:23:12pm

My favorite story on Brother Tariq is this: in the early 1990s, the Islamic center in Geneva operated by his brother, Hani, successfully prevented a showing of Voltaire's play Mahomet. The play was actually a satire on the Roman Catholic church, but Hani and his center claimed it was "insensitive" to Muslims and successfully prevented the play from being produced. And yet Brother Tariq has the gall to claim he is the one who is being unfairly silenced.

There are now three books written in French exposing Brother Tariq for what he is. I doubt he'll ever get a professorship in the USA. The jig is up.

In the U of Notre Dame's defense, Scott Appleby, the first class dhimmi who runs the Kroc Institute at which Brother Tariq was supposed to teach, doesn't speak for the student body, and certainly not for the alumni.

I probably should've stopped my blog on this guy after he wasn't coming to the USA, but I'd rather keep it up.

76 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:29:29pm

#71 Manker

...Gaza mosque...

Yeah, they'd better hope those gaza mosques work, when the day comes.

Otherwise, as people of Italian descent from North Dakota say...

..."Uppa U.S."...


D. Edgren

77 Ackomanyuki  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:34:58pm

#75 Darius

Happy to see that someone was on to this last year. A lot of people seemed to be unaware of what was going on at Notre Dame at the time. I made sure to tell as many of her Alum as possible while I was living in the conservative 'Catholic City' of Wheeling WV. I don't know what effect if any Alumni had on the 'brother' not recieving his position. Did it come down to the USDOS not granting his visa? Was there any outcry at all in the Notre Dame community? The people I told were suprised and shocked. I am going to go download your blog now.

78 Mike C.  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:36:40pm

# 54 D. Edgren

Well, it is the bloody middle of the workday here, and I'm in an office full of people. And since it is an islamic country, I don't think the JD would go over real big, either. And believe me, I have a hard enough time doing this crap stone cold sober.

79 Malleus Dei  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:36:51pm

"To hell with them. And to hell with this professor too."

Right on The Sun!

To Hell with every one of those people.

And soon.

80 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:41:11pm

#78 Mike

There with you in spirit, big guy. I bet lots of others are, too, truth be told.

Keep your head down...


D. Edgren

81 Freedom Fan  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:41:20pm

I've got it! What we need to do is send 'comedian' bill maher to Britain to build a "memorial" to the victims of this grisly barbaric act. maher will want to erect a building dedicated to exposing "why the islamists hate the west".

He can take his buddy ward churchill, who will explain to the British that the victims were responsible for their own deaths because they are just wicked "little eichmanns". This attack is simply the "chickens coming home to roost".

Maybe the imams will invite them both to speak in their mosques during their next friday hate-fest.

82 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:47:30pm

Ackomanyuki and Darius-

Thanks for keeping the curve up on this thread while I (for one) take a brief mind vacation. It's folks like you that provide the info that people remember, long after the last laugh at someone's (probably mine) lame excuse for a joke.

LGF ought to be accredited, what you can learn here if you pay attention.


D. Edgren

83 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:54:55pm
84 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 10:59:13pm

Hey, Freedom Fan...

Are you referring to Bill Maher, that guy who had that pretty funny show "Politically Incorrect" in the mid 90s?

Didn't he die in about 1998 or something?

I mean, I never saw him or heard him after that. There's this ratbag who kind of looks like him, though, who has had a show since then, but it can't be Bill Maher, because he just isn't a bit funny. In fact, I know it can't be him, because the real Bill Maher directed his shtick at folks across the board, while the phony-come-lately is all doctrinaire LLL'n shit.

Too bad, though. The real Maher could give MST3K a run for the money on a good day- and Joel and the 'bots had a pretty damn fine show.


D. Edgren

85 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:01:24pm
86 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:03:18pm
87 Buckaroo  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:04:24pm

# 86 Ray

Hell, he did from the PRC, this can't be (much) worse ...
:-0

88 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:07:07pm
89 Buckaroo  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:08:49pm

# 88 Ray

to may to

to mah to


/kidding ...

90 Freedom Fan  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:27:18pm

#84 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)

Yep, the very same bill maher. When he started the show "Politically Incorrect" it was indeed funny. Then he started weighting it with predominantly rabid liberals, cultivated a liberal audience and it became blood sport to shout down the wimpy conservatives. The show was so one-sided that I stopped watching it.

Then I lost all respect for him when he did that gushing interview of ward churchill, taking his side and insulting the man who lost loved ones in the WTC.

I surmise the effeminate way maher crossed his legs eventually caused him to become dickless. (Just a theory.)

91 Buckaroo  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:29:14pm

# 89 F F

Isn't it amazing when a comedian decides to turn LLL he/she absolutely ceases to be funny?

B. Maher, A. Franken, J. Garafalo, W. Goldberg, etc. ...

92 Freedom Fan  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:37:23pm

#91 Buckaroo

Didn't realize that Garofalo was a comedienne.

I heard her on airhead america radio. She mentioned that her father and step-mother were both major conservatives. Bet a psychologist would have fun with that fact.

The funniest thing about Garofalo was when her (puppet) head exploded on Team America. Worthy of multiple replays...

93 Psychobarb  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:37:47pm

#24 miklos rosza:

"the french have been assholes publicly but internally they arrest more muslims without anyone complaining than england or germany could ever dream of. they have experience and attitude going back to algeria in the 1950s."

I have said it before, if there is a major attack in Paris, the French will start the deportation trains a' rollin.

It may be what keeps the Muslims from doing just that. Remember, the French are not very nice people and when one of theirs is killed, WATCH OUT!

94 Mike C.  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:46:09pm

# 86 Rayra

Why ? Worst they're going to do is block it. I think it's blocked in the UAE, 'cause I couldn't get it at the Dubai airport, but it sure isn't blocked here.

# 88 Rayra

You're going to have to do something stupid to get your shit confiscated and get arrested in the PRC. The last thing on earth the government there wants is to discourage businessmen and tourists. I don't think the IRP wants to saw off my head, since I'm working for one of the state oil companies. But there are those around who would be glad to do so, I'm sure. This place is barely under control and barely functional, and this is actually one of the under-control, functional parts.

95 zombie  Mon, Jul 11, 2005 11:58:28pm

#52 Bayou_King

Yours Truly, Confused N10
Written by: Raymond Douglas Davies

Lyrics:
...
While parliamentary yobbos shout abuse around the house
Do-gooders and reformers lead our nation to defeat.
While murderers and terrorists get compassionate release

Interesting. The Kinks are from Muswell Hill, and N10 is the London postcode for Muswell Hill. I bet that Davies was referring to this case:

Monday November 18, 2002

Three men linked to an alleged plot to attack the London Underground with poison gas have not been questioned about the allegations, their lawyers told a court today.

The three, charged under the Terrorism Act, today made a 15-minute appearance at Bow Street magistrates court in central London. They were remanded in custody for four weeks by district judge Timothy Workman.

Lawyers acting for the men claimed details of an alleged plot to use poisoned gas had not been put to them and had only emerged in the press over the last few days.

The men, all Muslims of north African descent, are charged under section 57 of the Terrorism Act with "possessing articles for the preparation, instigation and commission of terrorism".

They are Rabah Chehaj-Bias, 21, of Muswell Hill, north London; Rabah Kadre, 35, of no fixed address; and Karim Kadouri, 33, of Holloway, north London.

Very relevant today. Not sure whatever happened to Rabah Chehaj-Bias -- according to this heinous Muslim/UK site, he was never convicted of anything. Not sure if he's still in jail.

Going off tangentially now -- that last link is really hair-raising if you want to get your blood pressure up. A quote from a dhimmi lawyer about terror suspects arrested in London that he defends:

"We have lost our way in this country. We have entered a new dark age of injustice and it is frightening that we are overwhelmed by it. I know I am representing innocent people; innocent people who know that a jury they face will inevitably be predisposed to find them guilty".
--Gareth Peirce, leading Civil Liberties lawyer, speaking at the Muslim News Awards Ceremony
96 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:06:31am

MikeC.

This is not a ringing endorsement as a travel destination. Stay safe.

This place is barely under control and barely functional, and this is actually one of the under-control, functional parts.


LOL

97 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:10:20am

F*cking hell!

It took five days for English media to make coherent remarks about Islamonazis -- and of all media, it's The Sun!

Well done to The Sun, which honestly is a bit of a rag normally.

I guess its editors tapped into the feelings of the public and went with it.

98 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:12:07am

Mike C.,
Beagle,
everybody,

Good afternoon, morning

99 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:28:15am

# 98 GJ

Gosh, I wasn't paying attention. I guess, being past 2 AM PDT, it IS the one, the only, O-ffic-ial, Morning Dead Thread. Good whatever, everybody.

100 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:31:07am

What time you got, Mike?

Around 2:30 PM?

101 SevoGuy  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:38:34am

I was so certain that the Brit's whould rise up against this cancer called islam once the unspeakable happened. Well is has happened and it will happen again. The only way it will stop is to do away with the cancer.

The clerics are the cancer...

102 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:45:06am

Almost 6 AM here. It's time to move the garbage to the street. Good time of day everyone.

103 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:46:09am

The idiotic criminals, who oppose disengagement have pulled another disgusting stunt, which is sure to further alienate them and their cause from the citizens of this country:

Anti-Disengagement Madmen Plant Dummy Bomb in J'lem Bus Station, Causing Panic and Delays

Police evacuated the central bus station in Jerusalem on Monday evening after finding a gas canister that turned out to be a dummy bomb. Right-wing activists are suspected of planting the package to protest the disengagement plan.

A note reading, "The disengagement will explode in our faces" was found attached to a suspicious package including a clock, electrical wires and a 12-kilogram gas canister.

Bastards.

104 rednaxela  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:49:50am

Great piece exploring creationist fallacies:

Fortunately, unlike the veiled forces that impart momentum to particles of mass, the impulse that propels incongruous ideas from one generation to the next is fairly transparent at its base. After all, youngsters imprinted with self-flattering beliefs are understandably reluctant to amend them later in life owing to the special status and privileges they bestow. And once someone has grown accustomed to the hollow pleasures of this egocentric world view, it's easy to see how these inflated beliefs would come to be shielded from the prickly barbs of reason by a panoply of family, friends and other like-minded folks, all of whom harbor the same inscrutable notions (mystery loves company).

Although this perpetual pattern of natal indoctrination and communal reassurance does not begin to encompass the full psychosocial breadth of this phenomenon-especially where adult converts are concerned-it does go a long way toward explaining the inordinate longevity of creationist mythology and why so many intelligent, well-educated, and otherwise rational people appear unable to step back and examine certain beliefs with a critical eye. Because creationist beliefs are both deeply rooted and profoundly comforting, it isn't hard to understand why certain people feel compelled to enlist any and all means at their disposal to discredit Darwin's theory. Nor is it difficult to imagine the sense of frustration they must feel when repeatedly told by scientists that their arguments are fundamentally flawed.


[Link: www.csicop.org...]

While reading this, I couldn't help myself but see some loose parallels to RoPer indoctrination. Obviously a completely different kettle of tea, but the recurring similarity is once kids have been indoctrinated, it's hard to reverse the result.

105 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:51:01am

# 100 GJ

I'm 12 hours ahead of the PDT time stamps on the posts, so you're correct.

106 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:54:31am

Time to rein in these assholes before someone innocent gets hurt:

JPOST Link

Over the last several months, opponents of the Gaza pullout plan have placed 'dummy bombs' on several major Jerusalem thoroughfares.

In March, a suitcase with a note on it denouncing the withdrawal from Gaza was left on a main Jerusalem street and was treated as a potential bomb.

The locked bag, which had been placed on Jaffa Road near the Mahane Yehuda market, had on it a message reading 'the cancellation of the disengagement plan will prevent suspicious objects, real or otherwise.'

Overnight Monday, anti-disengagement activists sealed shut with glue the locks to the Housing and Construction Ministry's Rehovot offices.

107 # 17  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:58:54am

# 103 Golden Jerusalem

There is no evidence that these despicable acts are being conducted by right wing elements. It is quite likely that the Shin Bet is running a campaign to discredit the right. It has happened before.

If you know the central bus station in Jerusalem, you will be well aware that no-one could walk in with a large gas canister.

108 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:00:03am

#105 Mike C.:

Yeah, I figure you were +2 compared to my location.

How are things otherwise? Are you close to wrapping up your stint there?

109 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:01:36am

# 104 rednaxela

It's too early on the dead thread to get up a good creation/evolution fight. I think.

110 2X4 wielder  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:03:43am

The whole issue of terrorism is similar to brinksmanship. The terrorists and their supporters take the issue to the brink. The UK is on the edge of anti-islamic attitudes. Just like the US was after 9/11 and after the Madrid bombings (to a much lesser extenr since they are socialists). Now they (the terrorists) will back off and let the Left counter-react with their predictable "its just the extremists" reactions. The terrorists have made their points with the fearful and the media pooh-poohes the reality of the actions. Time to let the pot simmer. Terror is always about limits. They take the issue to the brink of war or whatever and then they relax and let the Left argue for restraint. Even if they get no advantage off the London bombings they still win because they strike fear in the hearts of the fearful, and at most a few sleepers are compromised. Socialism and the Left is the terrorists best friend.

111 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:05:47am

#107:

the Shin Bet is running a campaign to discredit the right.

You know, I was expecting someone to come up with that canard.

It's the anti-disengagement-people's equivalent of "Bush was behind 9-11, I guess".

Can you hear yourself?

/Or: "The Jews poisoned Abu Ammar"

112 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:07:20am

# 108 GJ

9 freaking more days until I climb on that airplane. Darwin Ahkbar !

113 # 17  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:07:43am

# 111 Could you get a 12 kg. gas canister into the bus station ?

114 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:11:30am

#113:

There could very well have been someone with, shall we say, access, who is sympathetic to the orange crowd.

I find that infinitely more likely than the paranoid conspiracy theories floating about the Shabak.

115 # 17  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:13:46am

# 114

And do you think the Shabak is so incompetent that more than half a dozen fake bombs have been placed in various locations, and they have arrested no-one ?

116 Golden Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:14:08am

#113:

Besides, it wouldn't have been the first incident of this kind, as my J-Post link also clarifies.

Plus you have acts of vandalism in Rehovot and the idiots in Be'er Sheva caught with plans to sabotage infrastructure.

Oh, and idiots destroying people's tires, tossing nails and oil on a busy highway, thus endangering their fellow citizens.

All the making of the Shabak, I ask you?

117 # 17  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:16:11am

# 116 Avishai Raviv was. Still not been tried.

118 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:17:00am

#104 rednaxela

I don't find creation and science to be inherently incompatable. One of the most fascinating quotes from KJB's Genesis* is the opening:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Heaven and earth, two different natures or alternate dimensions in String Theory? You tell me.

Dividing the light from the darkness is a fascinating subject in the physics of the universe. Dark matter, dark energy, and so on.

Allegorical devices? Could mean almost anything else also? Sure.

Even "moving on the face of the waters" can be used to introduce Quantum Foam Theory.

It's not hard to work a Big Bang Theory into this at all. Which, by the way, is our best theory right now.

Honestly though, the bottom line is I like both the Bible story and the science aspects of creation. So I hope everyone works this out peacefully.

*I use the King James Bible out of habit. I do not take a position on which bible is correct.

119 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:42:29am

TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT

TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT

TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT

/barrel of Thompson submachine gun with 50-round drum magazine smoulders.

I killed the morning dead thread!

120 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:43:08am

Bombing investigation in London seems to be being led by Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick. Commisioner Paddick is hamstrung by the PC mindset.

It was only a couple of years ago he was going to sue the Metropolitan police for 'homophobia' because questions were raised about him allowing his boyfriend to smoke cannabis in his apartment.

Brian Paddick is the policeman who is also accurately quoted as saying:

"The concept of anarchism has always appealed to me."

He's been promoted since this article

And where is his focus during the London attacks?

The Met's Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick said there had been several apparent revenge attacks on ethnic groups in London since Thursday.

He said: "We need people from every community to report incidents to the police of any faith-hate crime and any other hate crime."

I think the bombings were faith-hate crimes, Mr Paddick, concentrate on those.

Police vow over revenge attacks

121 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:48:39am

Now this seems like a cheap shot to me

Air Force personnel ordered to avoid London

The Daily Mail newspaper said in an editorial: "We trust the 4 million Americans who come to London each year are made of sterner stuff than the U.S. Air Force."

Wasn't it just the other day that London was on the highest alert possible?

122 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:50:21am

# 119 Beagle

If you own one of those, it's worth a fortune.

123 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:51:46am

#121 VIA

We trust the 4 million Americans who come to London each year are made of sterner stuff than the U.S. Air Force


I wouldn't taunt the United States Air Force. Whoops! Those cruise missiles can be finicky. Raptor here, Raptor there, Raptor, Raptor, everywhere.

124 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:54:43am

#122 Mike C.

If you own one of those, it's worth a fortune.


I wish.

I use standard ChiCom-issue People's rifle from the mid-last century, Comrade. Do not be fooled by the gangster capitalist weapons in the movies. My People's Rifle will bury you!

125 jpsfudimo  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:55:49am

Good morning Lizards:

It's a little smoky in here, smells like cordite. I love the smell of cordite in the morning.

126 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:56:33am

Beagle
I remember in Italy, we would have frequent protests down at the town hall, followed by protestors marching down the street right in front of our little base.
Most of our people parked on that small street in front of the base due to nopt having enough parking for everyone on the base.

The protests were always announced ahead of time, and we would tell our people to avoid the town square and not park in front of the base during the protest.

Little did I know, that according to the world view of this article that the USN was being run out of town on a rail as a bunch of cowards.

We thought we were just being sensible.

127 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 1:56:42am

#123 Beagle - It is a bit of a smack when we're trying to get things back to normal that the USAF based in Britain have been told not to come to London.

Of course you have to protect your own people, but I imagine there would have been a bit of an outcry if Brits were told to avoid New York.

Anyway, the USAF is reviewing the order.

128 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:00:19am

#127 Smit

It is a bit of a smack when we're trying to get things back to normal


That's exactly where we hit a snag. There is a new normal, and it's not good. Transportation, education, and business are considered military targets by the enemy.

129 SpiritOf1683  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:00:24am

Islamic spokeperson in London declares on video interview that there are NO innocent civilians according to Islam.

Here's the video on MEMRI's website.

[Link: memritv.org...]

130 Dom  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:00:31am
131 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:00:39am

# 121 VIA

I see their point, though. Weren't we begging everyone to return to NYC as soon as things were settled as much as possible ? Anybody wants to send me to London, just let me know when and where to meet the plane - I'm there.

132 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:01:04am

Good morning all.

0Z Canadian Global says Emily does, just barely, survive Greater Antilles, as future Hurricane Franklin becomes a monster.

None of the models suggest future Franklin a Caribbean/Gulf threat, but Carolinas not off the hook yet.

UKMet says first landfall of Emily same area of Granma Province, Cuba that Dennis hit. UK Met Office model shows future TD #6/Franklin as just a strong wave.

0Z GFDL says a borderline Cat2/Cat 3 hits Gunatanamo.

Emily this morning.

Future Franklin.

Parts of Missouri that had been dry are dry no longer, thanks to a visitor from Africa via the Caribbean.

133 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:05:28am

# 124 Beagle

And me with just handguns. Revolvers, yet. But American-made, fer sure.

134 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:08:47am

#128 Beagle -

Transportation, education, and business are considered military targets by the enemy.

Yes, indeed. Some schools in London were evacuated after the bombings. Everyone was dreading another Beslan. I despise them for that.

135 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:09:36am

Good morning everyone!

Have a bluberry muffin with a cup of Lion coffee from the Hawaiian Islands, presented to me as a gift at the Texas meetup by EW1 (SG).

136 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:13:42am

BBC just reported that the 'avoid London' order has been lifted.

Good news. Thanks.

137 tom321  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:13:46am

We need a thread on this Air Force fiasco. This absurdity needs to end today! Whoever made this decision to not allow airmen into London has embarrsed the US and hurt our ally for no reason.

I can't believe we have all these troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan but the Air Force thinks Hyde Park and Oxford Street are too dangerous.

138 tom321  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:15:23am

136

ok, well i am glad they saw it my way :)

but seriously, why don't people think first before having to realize something is stupid after the fact?

139 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:18:52am

#133 Mike C.

And me with just handguns. Revolvers, yet. But American-made, fer sure.


Well I reckon a wheel gun gives you a fightin' chance of comin' out tha othar end ofa gunfight alive.

*spit*

Daddy gave me one of these when I grad uh ated nursery school
Check out the condition on that 1917 in the photo. I wish.

I have no idea why a 3" barrel Model 13 .357 is so accurate. Fixed sights, short barrel. I picked one of those up for under $200 American when the FBI was switching to semi-automatics. Miami Vice was still on TV.

140 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:19:05am

Some Base Commander overstepped his bounds, and immediately received a call from the Pentagon and was told to stfu! IMO.

141 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:19:18am

Mike C.

I see their point, though. Weren't we begging everyone to return to NYC as soon as things were settled as much as possible

I think that is the whole crux right there.

I'm not sure 72 hours after the attacks' and with London on the highest state of alert can really be defined as settled as much as possible.

There is a fine line between taking prudent precautions, and sending the message of defeat in the face of the enemy.

But, I noticed that urgent business was authorized with permission of the upper chain. Families were recommended to not go into London if not necessary.
This was all done within just several days of the attacks, and body recovery was still ongoing, as well as trying to get a handle on if there were any further attacks planned.

I don't remember any message out of New York on 9-14-01 saying everything is fine, please come and visit.
Maybe by the end of the month we were recommending that, but not immediately after.

142 Beto Ochoa  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:19:36am

#135 'Nam Grunt
Morning boss. Too bad you can't send that coffee through the computer I need some. I've sprayed some on the monitor now and then but it didn't go any farther than that.

143 littleoldlady  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:21:58am

Blueberries...hmmm!

144 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:22:05am

#142 Beto Ochoa,

Morning buddy have you and yours recovered?;-)

145 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:23:18am

Morning littleoldlady, have one and this coffee is great thanks EW1.;-)

146 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:24:13am

Meanwhile the Hutus are trying to get the genocide going again.

Witnesses said 39 villagers, mostly women and children, had been locked in their huts which were then set ablaze.
147 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:24:29am

# 141 VIA

9/11 caused slightly more and more widespread infrastructure damage, don't you think ? I don't recall the US military avoiding London during the Blitz. It was a stupid thing to say and do, and I'm glad it's been rescinded.

148 DP111  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:25:18am

From the Barnabus Fund

11 July 2005

MUSLIM COUNCIL OF BRITAIN ASKS FOR QUR’AN TO BE EXEMPT FROM
RELIGIOUS HATRED LAW

Muslim leaders in the UK have raised with a Home Office Minister the possibility of the Islamic scriptures being exempted from the proposed new law banning incitement to religious hatred, which is being debated
and voted on in the British Parliament today.

These scriptures include both the Qur’an and the hadiths (“ahadith” in Arabic) which are traditions recording the words and deeds of Muhammad and his first followers. The Racial and Religious Hatred bill is being debated and voted on in the House of Commons today. This is the third reading of the bill, and if passed today will move forward to be debated in the House of Lords.

REPORT FROM THE MUSLIM WEEKLY

The following excerpt is from the report in “The Muslim Weekly”, 8th-14th June issue, on this meeting.

A delegation of Muslim leaders and senior scholars met Home Office Minister Paul Goggins this week to seek clarification on the
Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill.

The delegation requested the meeting to seek clarification on a number of matters relating to the bill. Recent confusion regarding freedoms to deliver khutbahs and to recite and quote from the Qur’an and ahadith had raised concerns in the community that dawah and propagatory practices may be curtailed under the new legislation.

The Minister assured the Muslim community that there was nothing in the bill that would prevent scholars from delivering their sermons or from reciting from the Qu’ran and ahadith. The Minister reiterated that what the bill would do is criminalise incitement to religious hatred against individuals.

Sir Iqbal Sacranie stated that he was at eased that matters that had caused some obfuscation in the community had been cleared.

‘We’re happy that the Home Office has agreed to consult the faith communities when preparing the guidelines to the bill. Muslim scholars may proceed uninhibited in the performance of their duties’, he said.
The delegation made suggestions to the minister to that it may be preferable to totally exempt the holy text, which will include the Qur’an and the hadiths from the remit of the Act.


The delegation included: Sir Iqbal AKM Sacranie, Secretary General, Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, Sheikh Ibrahim Mogra, Chair (Mosque and Community Affairs Committee, MCB), Mufti Aslam, President of Jamitul
Ulema, Mr Sardar Qadri, Maulana Bostan Qadri, General Secretary, Confederation of Sunni Mosques, Midlands, Dr Taha Qureshi, Maulana
Rabbani, Sheikh Rizvi, President (Council of Nigerian Mosques), and Maulana Hadi of Jamiiate Ahli Hadis and Mr Abbas of the World
Federation of Khoja Shia Ithnari.[1]

---

Muslims want freedom of speech to preach their hatred and incitement to murder Jews and Christians but are afraid of any criticism of their so called "holy" books.

There is a direct relation between muslims in our nations and the jihadi attacks. For the peace of mankind as a whole, it is better that there is a separation, until muslims abrogate the koran as a whole.

149 littleoldlady  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:26:58am

All this food-sharing is very nice. I apologize for my meager offerings; just some left over stuffed cabbage from my mother's visit. I wouldn't recommend it for breakfast. (Actually, I wouldn't recommend it for dinner either, but that's just me.)

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*

{'Nam}

150 Beto Ochoa  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:27:30am

#144 'Nam Grunt
The wife is 100% but that hotel mattress Fuped my neck up. Yesterday was adventures in electronics trying to get the photos from my camera to the 'puter. I prevailed though and just need to edit out the nekkid ones from the ones to be posted ;~)

151 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:29:27am

#150 Beto Ochoa,

Send them to me when you get the chance.;-)

152 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:30:33am

Mike C.

We don't disagree often, and maybe I'm just not wording it right.

If the original intent was to go to a higher Force Protection level immediately after the attack, followed by a post assessment reduction back to a lower level, than I think it was the right thing to do.

If it was a run away, run away hide reaction, than I think it was wrong to issue the order.

Bad thing is, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

153 Beto Ochoa  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:31:38am

Will do 'Nam. I'm into them now.

154 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:33:30am

#152 VIA

Bad thing is, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.


This whole war is FUBAR. I'm disappointed I don't find it more fun. ;-)

155 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:37:34am

#154 Beagle,

What's bad is that it's turning less offense and more defense and we will pay for that.

156 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:38:10am
157 Yank in the EU  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:39:07am

Calling all peeps:

This article: "Munich Mosque Holds a Saga of Radical Islam":

Long-buried documents reveal how a Munich mosque became a key beachhead of radical Islam in the West, exploiting a working arrangement with the CIA to export its creed. Second in a series.

is in the WSJ today, but I don't pay for this. Can anybody find this for free? Here's the WSJ page: [Link: online.wsj.com...]

158 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:42:02am
159 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:42:15am

#155 'Nam Grunt

What's bad is that it's turning less offense and more defense and we will pay for that.


I agree completely. All wars are wars of attrition and initiative. We need to pound down the doors, or whole structures, of the enemy. Getting it done is always on the ground by grunts like you.

[At this point I should admit to being a Keyboard Kommando, Chickenhawk, who's never served in the military.]

If that takes us into Pakistan, Syria, or Iran then the diplomacy needs to catch up with the situation on the ground as opposed to the other way around. I've heard the Taliban is playing back and forth over the Pakistan border. We can't do this again.

160 Yank in the EU  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:52:28am

Good morning, AI, looks like #s 157 and 158 are cases of that Vulcan mind-meld thing.

161 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:54:08am
162 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:54:33am

#85, Rayra


Lockheed unveils hybrid cruise missile/UAV plans

Loiters for 24hrs at 5000ft, waiting to smash whatever the hell you want. 20kg warhead.

Plus, it gets unbelievable gas mileage...

163 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:54:50am

Good Morning Friends!

164 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:54:56am

New Mark Steyn piece:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

"'There are no Muslim terrorists. There are terrorists," Father Paul Hawkins of St Pancras parish church told his congregation on Sunday. "The people who carried out these attacks are victims of a false religion, be it false Christianity or false Islam."

"Oh, dear. "Britain can take it" (as they said in the Blitz): that's never been in doubt. The question is whether Britain can still dish it out..."

165 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:55:14am

#133 Mike C.

"..and mw with just handguns.."

Want to learn how to 'reach out and touch someone' with a revolver?

166 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 2:57:55am

#163 loppyd,

Morning bunny-hop, thankyou so much for the hat, it has become my favorite, I wore it all day yesterday.;-)

167 Yank in the EU  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:00:07am

#161 AI

By the time I get home, about 12 hours from now, I am sure that the article will already be linked...

Ok, that sounds good about the link - sometimes it is amazing the stories that are posted on the threads are not brought to the general attention.

168 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:00:07am

166 'Nam

Good Morning and you are very welcome. I'm so happy you like it! I missed you guys this weekend...looks like you had a ball!

169 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:02:42am
170 Son Of The Godfather  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:02:43am

Sorry for the OT:
Next time a lefty says "I support the troops!" have them take a look at This.

It's a great read. I wish someone would confront a moonbat live on-air with these points. It would look like the clubbing that Ronny Reagan Jr. received the other day.

SOTG

171 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:03:25am

#168 loppyd,

It can't be expressed in words as to how great it was.;-)

172 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:04:36am

171 'Nam

Well if a picture is worth a thousand words, judging from the ones I saw it was a bash for the ages.

Are you recovered yet? :)

173 peggie  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:04:38am

there was a time when you would think that everything is curable. look at how pedophilia was handled. treat them, counsel them and release them back into the population. same with sex offenders, serial murders, etc and so on. we're always learning the hard way - usually at the expense of others. same with the terrorists. the idea of sociopaths. the eternal optimism that with the right treatment and understanding we can save the poor misguided soul. the idea of an evil character flaw isn't as easy or comfortable as the idea of victimhood.

174 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:06:22am

# 162 Dar ul Harb

I think it runs on biodiesel.

# 165 BZ

That's what the single action with the long barrel and the scope is for.

175 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:08:53am

#172 loppyd,

Oh yeah, I'm good to go. lol

176 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:10:29am
177 David2  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:11:15am

Those who allow these monsters to speak at conferences and those who let preditors take away children are spawn of Kerry, Kennedy and Pelosi. And thousands like them who have bought the liberal package. The monsters need to be understood, don't you know? Look at that wall, covered with the remains of those who went to work on 7/7. Look at the pit that holds the dust of those who went to work on 9/11. Look at the graves of the little children. Some were buried alive so the evidence would not be found.
And someone you know voted for someone who has bought the package. That's how insidious this whole process has become.

178 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:11:38am
179 rosh  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:12:08am

Somewhat on topic, this is rich:
Cameraphone pic: "Palestinians in Solidarity with London"Yes, what an opportunity for dawah.

180 doppelganglander  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:12:57am

Good morning, lizards. If you're not already pissed off this morning, this should do it. Julianne Malveaux is even stupider and more evil than I thought.

Asked point-blank if the U.S. was a "terrorist nation," Malveaux shot back: "Oh, Absolutely."
In the next breath she added, "The chickens have come home to roost," in an apparent reference to the 9/11 attacks.

If I have to hear that Ward Churchillian phrase one more time, I will shove a chicken up the speaker's nose.

181 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:13:16am

Radical Islamic credo mirrors leftist credo:

"Fight the oppressor - blow up innocents."

182 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:13:58am
183 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:14:33am

177 David2

Well said. And sad, but true...

184 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:15:46am

Check this out via Real Clear Politics:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

From David Aaronovitch:

"...What does all this tell us? First, that if they aren’t blowing us up, then they’ll be blowing up someone else. And you don’t get to choose who. Secondly, who or what they blow up is largely a matter of what’s available. Jews anywhere, Americans after that, Shia next and Brits probably a distant fourth. Africans for fun.

"On Sunday night’s Panorama it was reported that new jihadis all over Europe are being turned on by snuff videos shot in Iraq. It was suggested that this was evidence for the contention that Iraq was inflaming would-be bombers. But back in 2001, I recall, they were being similarly aroused by material shot in Algeria and during the war against the Russians in Afghanistan. You have to ask about what kind of person sees a film of a hostage being beheaded, and wants to do the same thing. The explanation may be psychological, psychosexual, ideological even, but it doesn’t seem to me to be political. If someone is getting their jollies from fantasising about cutting throats, I don’t think geopolitics is the problem..."

He writes a lot like Steyn. Pithy and humourous but deadly serious all the same.

185 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:16:10am

175 'Nam

Happy to hear it...

So is it going to be an annual event?

186 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:17:05am

#174 Mike C.

That's what the single action with the long barrel and the scope is for.


One of my friends has the .44 Mag Ruger Blackhawk Bisley with the ridiculous barrel ("?). That's a hunting rifle with cylinders.

187 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:17:59am

Remember when it was hip among leftists (maybe it still is?) to so say "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"?


Epitomizes the rhetorical moral emptiness of the extremist Islamist/Palestinian and their apologists on the left.

188 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:19:00am

Erm, one cylinder per gun.

189 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:19:45am

#185 loppyd,

You bet, I have already started planning the next one.;-)

190 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:20:59am

Mornin all.

AI, I am no suprised. PC ideology will destroy us all.

191 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:21:24am

pimf, " not "

192 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:22:15am

#184 foreign devil, and how does such an islamic mind wrap itself around the Western concept of freedom? There is no freedom in the Western idea of freedom that allows you to behead people and work for allah. Western freedom takes away every thing they want. Not freedom at all for an islamicist.

193 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:24:01am

#164 Foreign devil

Thanks. another money Mark Steyn quote:

In most circumstances it would be regarded as appallingly bad taste to deflect attention from an actual "hate crime" by scaremongering about a non-existent one. But it seems the real tragedy of every act of "intolerance" by Islamist bigots is that it might hypothetically provoke even more intolerance from us irredeemable white imperialist racists.
194 DP111  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:26:34am

You think this is coming too fast?

Jihadi terrorism is not motiveless. Its purpose is to intimidate and make the infidels respond in the correct way. They are the sticks, in the carrot and stick approach applied to the proverbial donkey , to coerce our societies to make islam pre-eminent. So it is no surprise to me that muslim organisations are demanding this and that, in the wake of the London attacks.

I have been writing on LGF since 9/11, that 9/11 was very succesful, as it raised the profile of islam in the US and the world. In addition GWB went about propagating the RoP mantra and visiting mosques. So again the same mantra is applied by Tony Blair and the idiot dimwits of our leadership, who realy have no clue of the motives of these attacks (This includes MSM papers such as the DT). They are responding in the exact way, as the proverbial donkey, that the jihadists wished and hoped for.

And how about this.

A defiant Islam rises among young Britons

In Dalston market in north-east London on Thursday, "Abdullah," a Muslim watch-mender and evangelist, was in a pugnacious mood.

"We don't need to fight. We are taking over!" he said. "We are here to bring civilization to the West. England does not belong to the English people, it belongs to God."

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

Thanks to View from the Right for the link

[Link: amnation.com...]

Fair enough. What the muslim did not mention is what he really believes, that England belongs to allah and as such, it is ceded to muslims.

---

Many are the times in the last 4 years I have asked, where is the Churchill who will speak the truth about the nature of the enemy we are dealing with. I now think that it is not a Churchill that we need but an Oliver Cromwell, the Lord High Protector.

195 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:27:34am

187 Free Speech


It is still hip. See thread about BBC substituting "bombers" for "terrorists" in the Tube bombing stories.


Wouldn't do to be judgemental to the misunderstood [bigoted word]s.

196 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:28:44am

HEY!HEY! FOLKS! Pax is back, noe the worse for wear! P'Cola is beat to hell & back, but we escaped unscathed and I will NEVER...NEVER...follow a mandatory evacuation from our idiot govenor again! It took me 12 ours to get home!

Nam...man, how'd the suaree' go?

197 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:29:11am

189 'Nam

Mark my words...I WILL be there!

198 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:30:07am

PAX!

{Pax}

I was worried about you! Happy to hear the Pax clan made it unscathed. :)

199 Seven_Stripes  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:32:42am

I am so tired of seeing this. By this point though, things like this dont surprise any of us here I'm sure.

Where are the Muslims around the world protesting this speech? If Christian extremists were in the public eye to such an extent, committing mass murder on a global scale, I GUARANTEE Christian movements would make a stand, hold rallies, etc...

The only thing I've seen is FreeMuslims.org, but they're rather pathetic. Last 9/11 they sent out a mass email saying "Sorry for 9/11," as if they were the perpetrators.

200 SlothB77  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:35:12am

Democratic Underground:

ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts)

I wanna see [Rove] fry!

Stevious Donating Member (118 posts)

Off with his head!

marmar Donating Member (728 posts)

I think the only way to get rid of him would be to put a stake or silver bullet through him.

King Cozumel (3 posts)

KKKarl is a treasonous bastard and they only want him fired? I don't support senseless killings, but I can think of no other candidate for capitol punishment for treason, and that's Karl Rove. At least get him a nice room at the Hague. I'm sure there's SOMETHING that he could be tried for.
201 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:35:21am

{lops}

Mrs. Pax & I spent 12 hours in a PT Cruiser with a whiny a*s cat and a slobbering shedding Border Collie on tranqulizers, while trying to keep an eye on our teenagers in the car behind us who thought it was all just a big party and all-of-a-sudden I was Daddy Warbucks! It was hell!

202 [Engineer]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:35:43am

189 'Nam

I am certainly game for a repeat, but hey, let us rest for a few weeks:-)

Off to work now, have to oppose my share or the ZOG will cut me off.

203 Tonic  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:36:29am

Good old Sun. Never more than twelve words to a paragraph.

204 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:36:31am

Emily looking a little better this morning, although it looks as if it is experiencing a bit of shear from the East.

Looking at first frames of visible loop, center is on eastern edge of cloud mass, and heaviest thunderstorms displaced somewhat from the center. But it looks better than yesterday.

Meanwhile, even Chicago gets to enjoy a little bit of "African Sunshine" via the Tropical North Atlantic and Caribbean The center of Tropical Depression Dennis is over extreme southern Illinois.

Latest GFDL says Cat 4 hits Haiti, weakens to barely a hurricane, tracks along north coast of Cuba.

205 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:37:42am
206 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:37:55am

Sounds like the corporate lawywers have cleared their on-air and in-print people to take the gloves off when it comes to Islam. No longer will we view Islam as a "protected class" above the other religions. That's legalese for be careful and make reasonable accomodations. Overt discussions about secular oaths, shahids, women, sharia, the Koran, you name it, are going on all over American TV. I wish I actually hears "shahid" and "sharia" more so people get the Arabic words and concepts as we must understand them (like the Holy Koran, don't even look at it).

The First Amendment is not a death warrant for our civilization. The UK media (with notable exceptions) hasn't gone full dhimmi. The Guardian and BBC are beneath what's under contempt.

How much of this is just post-attack rhetoric? Attacks in Iraq carried out by the same people (not exactly the same people, recidivism in suicide bombing being low) with the same motives create the opposite reaction in our political Left. "It's Bush and Blair, poodle, Plame, oil, race, Reagan, creationism, abortion, CO2, Kyoto, RAWK!"

207 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:42:28am

OT.
Does any have a link that supports Infidels are not innocent because they reject Allah and are worthy of death.

208 Buckeye Abroad  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:43:07am

#165 Ben

Want to learn how to 'reach out and touch someone' with a revolver?

After watching you plug a paper plate at 250 feet with your .44, I can vouch that I wouldn't want to piss you off.

Thanks for the email yesterday. Traveling at the moment and the connections are shaky, so I didn't get a chance to reply.

209 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:43:56am

#180 doppleganger -

"The chickens have come home to roost,"

Yeah I hate this phrase too! It's meaningless.
I can't think of anything less threatening than chickens roosting.

But if they'd just say "This is payback for our sins" a lot more people would understand what they really mean.


{Now I have a mental image of the little red hen wearing a bomb belt}

210 archer[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:44:03am
211 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:44:15am

201 Pax

That sounds putrid. Where did you stay during the storm?

212 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:44:16am

#195 ED

Still hip, indeed. ugh.


"[bigoted word]s" - LOL.

213 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:47:29am

211 loppy

a beautiful mountain cabin that my mother-in-law owns 30 minutes south of Huntsville on Guntersville Lake. Very picturesque. Me and Mrs. Pax enjoyed that part! Oh! Except the girls constant whines of , "we're bored! Is ther a mall around here or somethin?"

214 Cowgirl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:50:09am

#3 El Cid You have it exactly right. This same thing goes on in our country, and I don't like it one bit.

MSM facilitates the spread of all anti-American speech, without any apparent concern that we are at war.

Celebrities say anything at all against our country, president, troops, or the war effort, and their words are spread round the world in a nano-second.

I cannot imagine that this would have happened during WWII, or FDR would have shut 'em down. I'd like to see the Feds do the same with at least one or two MSM publications/broadcasts. Maybe even deport a celebrity (traitor) or two. Just to set an example.

Free speech does not encompass treason.

215 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:50:19am

Lively
Sura Nine: "The Go-To Sura"

009.001
PICKTHAL: Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

009.002
PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

009.003
PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

009.004
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

009.005
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


The Forgiving, Merciful Ambush Religion (of Peace) -- That's just one translation of the first five classics in Sura Nine.

008.012
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.


8.012 is always mentioned.

It's not a matter of a verse here or there, but everywhere.

216 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:50:28am

GAZA - In a reaction similar to the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks in New York, the blood spilt in the London terror attacks has been celebrated within the Palestinian territories.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

217 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:54:55am

Story about Israel fake (again):

Halutz: No ties between London attacks, Mike's Place bombing in TA

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

218 USMC RECON  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:56:01am

Good Morning Troop !

219 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:00:38am

Leeds police ataged an armed raid upon a house in the city, and a controlled explosion has been reported. Developing...

But from what I know, controlled explosions of this kind are used to destroy dangerous explosive compounds or devices - or a least items that could very well be explosive.

220 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:00:40am

pax,

The party was great if you stay on long enough someone has pics hell the DUmmies even have a batch lol. I was worried about you and yours in fact I brought up your name a couple of times at the party, glad to see you all made it ok.;-)

221 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:00:49am

#215 Beagle

It's not a matter of a verse here or there, but everywhere.

Yes, but I'm losing a debate right now because you have to connect the dots in the Koran that killing innocent civilians is hunky-dory. I'm trying to find a site that explains their line of reasoning...I feel like I've read it before...now I just can't put my hands on it.

222 peggie  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:01:23am

the problem with recognizing a problem is that you might actually have to do something about. human nature is made up of a wide variety of people and there are those who are terrified. the dems appeal to them because their message is a little more comforting and the solutions easier. you see it everyday in the little battles of life. giving your lunch money to a bully - walking away from someone who is being beaten because you're afraid the anger will turn on you. georgia witkin of fox said that heroes are rare [re: pat tillman]. some people are more afraid of being afraid - will they be heroic or will they slink back to the shadows. you can only solve some problems by hands-on. if it comes to freeing people, most drive around with their support stickers and this is as close as they want to get. some charity that takes 99% of the funding for operationaal expenses.

223 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:06:37am
224 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:08:55am

Posted this in the Rove/Plame thread: but I would like to pass it around:
John at Powerline nails it:

[Link: powerlineblog.com...]

225 Black George Bush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:09:32am

Morning all!

226 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:10:12am

213 Pax

Well at least you weren't in some G-d forsaken shelter crawlin' with germs!

I'd like to say I wasn't like your girls when I was a teen, but my Momma taught me not to lie...

227 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:10:36am

#221 Lively

www.quran.org

There is a passage about an islamic companion of Moses teaching him the ways of allah because allah wasn't happy with Moses lack of understanding. For one of the 'lessons' the companion murders a boy for the islamic reason that later on in life he would do bad things and embarass his parents. I can find it for you but islamicists know it well.

228 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:11:10am

BGB

Good Morning!

229 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:11:38am

{RECON}

You never answered my question...

230 BIG  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:11:45am

OT - Spanish power plant bombed

MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Four small bombs exploded Tuesday near a power plant in the Basque region after a warning call from the separatist group ETA, the Basque Interior Ministry said.

The explosions occurred in the town of Amorebieta in Vizcaya province, the ministry said, adding that there were no casualties.

ETA called a Basque newspaper and warned that four bombs would go off at the power plant, and workers at the plant were evacuated before the explosion, the ministry said.

231 Powderfinger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:12:04am

#221 Lively

Here. The koran is replete with exhortations to violence.

232 Sean II  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:12:12am

A recent poll in Britain shows that Londoners are f'n nuts and welcome their death's:

Londoners, who bore the brunt of last Thursday’s carnage, were not as supportive of draconian measures as people in the rest of the country.

233 Barn Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:13:11am

Tom Friedman was actually very good on Imus this morning. He sounded tough and honest. He said he has given up trying to figure out what the motives are of people who commit atrocities like London. They have no motive beyond just being a jihadist death cult. Killing for the sake of killing. He has thrown up his hands analyzing them beyond that.

Just as good, he made it clear that he thinks that the solution is that, as he put it, "It takes a village". Until the Muslim world stands up and denounces these acts clearly and consistently, and purges this death cult out from its midst, it is not doing enough. He said that if a fatwa could be issued against Salman Rushdie, whose "crime" was just writing a book, why hasn't a fatwa been issued against bin Laden and Zarqwari?

My words above report the gist of what Friedman said, but they can't convey his tone. He sounded pissed off and really exasperated by the continuance of this shit.

I know not everyone on this board might not be a Friedman fan, but I think he has largely been on the side of the angels since 9/11. He is one of the group I would consider liberal hawks, in which I would also include people like Andrew Sullivan and Christopher Hitchens.

234 mpax  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:15:11am

Pipes on Tough French

"France is the most stalwart nation in the West, even more so than America, while Britain is the most hapless."

The entire article is only available online to subscribers. The point Pipes makes is that the french are the country in Europe which is not caving in to Islamofascists.

235 Tonic  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:18:03am

#231 Powderfinger

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Literal interpretations, anyone?

236 Powderfinger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:18:06am

#233 Barn Owl

The most salient point Friedman made was also very clearly stated.

"This is a death cult..." and it's up to Muslims to clean it up.

"They don't even know what their motivations are anymore...these people worship death."

When you're right, you're right, even if you write for the Old Grey Nag.

237 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:18:11am

Yes, the raid in Leeds was indeed connected to the London attacks, and a controlled explosion has been carried out. Story

238 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:18:29am

#192 Roger:

Everything's relative, isn't it? Well...put it to them this way...you have freedom of speech...but not to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre!

239 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:18:47am

#221 Lively

If you can connect the dots in Islam and make sense of it you get the grand prize.

Boy Scout Motto: Be Prepared

Entire History of Islam < Boy Scout Motto

240 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:19:00am

HEY! SOMEBODY EMAIL ME THE PICS FROM THE LGF NAM-A-THON!

241 LSD  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:21:25am
242 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:21:35am

237 Fabio C.

From your linked article...

Around 500 people have been evacuated from nearby houses, a mosque, a health centre and an old people's home.

Hmm, a Mosque? You don't say.

/do I need it?

243 Powderfinger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:24:08am

#235 Tonic

Literal interpretations, anyone?

Lately, or ever? Nothing modern comes to mind. You got anything?

244 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:24:32am

#233 Barn Owl:

Au contraire! Friedman has been on of the biggest detractors of our progress in Iraq and a constant stumbling block and appeaser in matters Palestinian. That said, his set of 'Liberal' beliefs is beginning to crack and the veneer is peeling off in the face of realpolitik from Islamists. Now he's stopped insisting on 'dialogue' with them and is throwing up his hands! Swell!

Throwing up your hands is not a strategy! THAT WILL GET YOU KILLED!

Something a bit more pro-active is called for. If Tom is finally 'waking up' that's a good thing; but he has a LONG WAY TO GO AND AN AWFUL LOT TO MAKE UP FOR!

245 mglazer  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:24:46am

Every time the media says anything about the Koran it's always "the holy Koran", symptomatic of our need to shower "respect" on the people who hate us.

246 motorcycle mom  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:25:14am

Pax go here for pics
monday morn thread #162

247 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:25:17am

Pax

I sent you the link that BenZacharia mailed me yesterday...

248 LSD  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:25:26am

#235
Haven't seen it happen in my lifetime

249 USMC RECON  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:26:12am

loppyd

?

250 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:26:24am

#235 Tonic, good idea not to commit adultery.

251 Tonic  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:26:42am
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

Amen!

252 LSD  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:28:39am

#251
Never seen/heard of it happening ... except in Islam.

253 Son Of The Godfather  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:28:50am

#235 Tonic

Sure, it says if you fuck around with someone else's wife, you die. We have laws which say "hey you, don't do that for real or you go to jail".

Now from the Koran: "all infidels must die".
This book is their law.
"hey you, do that for real and you become a great martyr and get 72 virgins when you fianaly get tagged".

See the difference?

SOTG

254 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:29:02am

RECON

dry cleaners?

/taps foot...

255 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:29:21am

#231 Powderfinger

The koran is replete with exhortations to violence.

I can't use the Koran to solely support my position that killing innocents is preached in Islam.

The Old Testament has violence/killing/taking over land and it is not practiced today...therefore they hold the same logic with the Koran...that's just a bunch of old stories and most muslims do not feel that way today.

256 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:29:41am

Motorcycle Mom

Those are great!

257 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:30:44am

Mot Mom, Lops

thanx! The Hanoi jane memorial Urinal was priceless!

258 Powderfinger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:30:50am

#252 LSD

Yeah, but what about those Christians suicide bombing those buses in...oh, wait.

That hasn't happened, has it?

259 USMC RECON  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:31:52am

loppyd

Uniform cleaned and pressed,brass shinned, shoes spit shined and salad bar attached.

Ready for any and all occasions.

260 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:33:13am

#225 Black George Bush:

Mornin'. All the 'usual suspects' are here...no trolls so far. No big doin's either. Just catching up on the morning literary offerings in Britain and elsewhere. Grab a java and park it! :)

261 LSD  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:33:16am

#258
Always love people who equivocate present day truth with fiction.

262 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:34:46am

lively

therefore they hold the same logic with the Koran...that's just a bunch of old stories and most muslims do not feel that way today.

if that is actually the case, then why don't we see and hear very obvious condemnations from islumic leaders?...we don't except in a few token cases which leads the world to believe that their silence is an endoresment of brutality!

263 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:35:04am

#255 Lively, please point to a passage in the Bible where it says kill a child so they cannot do embarassing things later on. Embarassing to their parents that is.

264 Killraven  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:35:29am

You know what sucks? Travelling sucks. Anywhere you go, pretty much.

You know why? Because everywhere you go, you have to be screened and wait in line and get swabbed for explosives and checked for nail clippers and whatnot.

Thanks islam. Thanks for fucking up worldwide travel.

265 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:37:37am

Recon

Start driving now and I'll see you in about 4 hours! :)

266 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:38:08am
I can't use the Koran to solely support my position that killing innocents is preached in Islam.

The Old Testament has violence/killing/taking over land and it is not practiced today


You should read both side-by-side at the same time.

Then you examine the real world for examples in the past and present. Hmmm? The teachers of Islam, whatever the books say, are a big part of the problem. I'm not excusing the books. The Koran should fall under any religious incitement or hate speech laws, which I oppose on principle.

267 peggie  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:39:21am

ot newsmax has an article valerie plame vs juanita broadrick. after awhile, you have to realize that there is just so much whinning one can take - sort of like hyperventilating about who stole your deck chair on the titanic.

268 Powderfinger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:39:58am

#255 Lively

I can't use the Koran to solely support my position that killing innocents is preached in Islam.

You want current preaching? Search MEMRI for "Sermon". You'll find stuff like this:

Islamism, also called "radical Islam" or "fundamentalist Islam," sets Jihad - holy war against infidels – as the single most important religious duty of Islam. It differs from mainstream Islam in its understanding of th obligation of Jihad and of how it should be carried out.

Mainstream Islam restricts the religious duty of Jihad in various ways. First, according to mainstream Islam, not all infidels are to be fought against or killed. Infidels who live under Muslim rule as dhimmi, that is, who have accepted the protection of Islam and the conditions imposed upon them by Islamic law, are not to be killed. [The rest are fair game.- Ed] Further, most mainstream Muslim jurists maintain that even when Jihad is being fought, some infidels within the enemy camp, such as women, children, the elderly, and the disabled, should be spared. According to most Muslim jurists, certain types of arms or methods of warfare must not be used – for example, poisoned arrows and poisoning the enemy's wells – which could be construed as a basis for prohibiting chemical and biological warfare.

269 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:42:44am

I think that trying to deny the dubious content of parts of the Old Testament is useless. The important point is that Jews and christians evolved past the stage in which stoning and other nastyness were the law of the land. On the other hand, large parts of Islam have not.

Concidentially, there is a new piece by Stephen Schwarts out on TCS.

270 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:43:32am

Two articles to start off the morning.

First: Anti-Wolf protesters try to block Tour De Frog. Apparently some farmers are upset that wolves attack their flocks. so the obvious solution is to protest the Tour de France race...

Second: One Step Closer to a Star Trek world. A school district in AZ does away with books, and uses purely electronic reading material.

271 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:46:03am

Powderfinger

HA!Too funny:

Further, most mainstream Muslim jurists

What the hell is a moooslem jurist? I guess that would kinda be like a Klan jurist I'd imagine...

272 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:46:28am
273 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:46:53am

#270 LanceKates

In Italy, farmers would set out to covertly kill the wolves, instead.

274 tigger2005  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:48:31am

Go Sun!

How can I get a subscription?

275 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:48:54am

#263 Rodger

#255 Lively, please point to a passage in the Bible where it says kill a child so they cannot do embarassing things later on. Embarassing to their parents that is.

I believe in the Law of Moses there is a provision for killing your wicked/unrepentant son or having the congregation kill him. I could be off though...not part of my expertise.

#266 Beagle

Then you examine the real world for examples in the past and present. Hmmm? The teachers of Islam, whatever the books say, are a big part of the problem.

That's a good angle. I'm going to use it.

#262 pax

if that is actually the case, then why don't we see and hear very obvious condemnations from islumic leaders?...

Actually, there are a lot of muslim organizations and countries condemning the killing of innocents this time. But everyone thinks I'm a lunatic for saying the London commuters were not "innocent" in Islam's eyes.

276 bianchi_roadie  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:49:08am

#270

Protests during the TdF is a standard thing. There seems to be one every year: truckers, farmers, actors, you name it. Sometimes they block the road during the race, and the riders have to go through carefully. Luckily, there isn't any violence.

It's a big event, so every group with an agenda comes out. Surprising that the animal rights groups won over farmers. France still clings to the myth of France as a rural wonderland. Only about 4% of the population actually works on farms, but everyone loves to cling to the romantic ideals of idyllic rural life.

277 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:49:21am

270 Lance

they may also be creeping ominously towards the BRAVE NEW WORLD..

278 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:49:57am

#273 Fabio

and my family down here in OK... if they had a heard and wolves were attack them... nothing covert. just kill the wolves on the land.

isn't it crazy that rather than solve the problem, they leave their flock and go protest a bicycle race.. *sigh*

279 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:50:02am

#269 FabioC., this question is why Jesus spent so much time writing in the dirt. I don't consider any of the Bible dubious.

280 Tonic  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:50:08am
I think that trying to deny the dubious content of parts of the Old Testament is useless.

You're on MY side? :o

Thanks islam. Thanks for fucking up worldwide travel.

...and thanks Islam for Al Jazeera ;)

281 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:50:51am

#275 Lively, for something he has not done?

282 TalkinKamel  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:51:05am

#255 Lively

You have, of course, traveled extensively in the Moslem world, spoken to many Moslems, are fluent in Arabic and this is why you are so sure that "most Moslems" don't support terrorism.

Right?

If you have done any of the above, I'll be interested in hearing your arguments to support what you say---that most Moselms don't support terrorism. You can explain, at the same time, why they haven't risen up en masse to denounce it, and to reject the Islamofacists. And, no, your argument can't contain any big BUTS. No, "BUT THEY SEE THE JIHADIS AS FREEDOM FIGHTERS! BUT THEY SEE THE JIHADIS AS BEING ANTI-ISRAEL!"

If you haven't done any of the above, then can you tell us what makes you so sure of what's going on in the mind of the average Moslem?

(The old argument of "The Old Testament's just as bloody as the Koran" has been brought up here again and again. Bottom line---Jews and Christians don't use the OT to support violence against other religions anymore. Islam does still use the Koran to justify violence against Infidels.)

283 SouthAmericanWay  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:51:18am

Charles,

This is extremely significant; I don't know if anyone else has already linked to it:

London Police fund visit of terror apologist Ramadan

284 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:51:40am

275 Lively

But everyone thinks I'm a lunatic for saying the London commuters were not "innocent" in Islam's eyes.

No sir..no one thinks that. That would be asserting opinion. I think most of us think that's a fact if you say that...islamist.

285 alegrias  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:53:01am

This is the same Ramadan invited by a Prof. Peter Mandeville to Northern Virginia's George Mason University Center of Islamic/Global Studies (sp?) last summer. One way ticket back to dar al Islam for these "educators" please--maybe they can teach literacy back home instead of "enlightening" us here.

286 BIG  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:53:07am

OT - Gunmen assault Palestinian interior minister aide

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - A senior Palestinian Interior Ministry official was seriously injured in a beating by masked assailants on Tuesday in the latest episode of lawlessness challenging President Mahmoud Abbas. Ibrahim Salame was driving to work in the West Bank city of Ramallah when three gunmen fired toward his car to force him to stop, a ministry statement said. The gunmen then severely beat Salame with "sharp objects," it said.

Salame was hospitalized in serious condition and police launched a search for the assailants.

287 USMC RECON  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:53:58am

loppyd

Which direction am I driving?

4 hours from here is still in the middle of nowhere.

288 templar  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:54:50am

#255 Lively

Yes, the Old Testament does have versus about war and conquest, much of which are in the history sections of it, including Joshua, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, etc. If one is to actually read through it, you'd find that idolatry and adultary are denounced regularly in the histories and the Prophets, paticularly the 'minor' prophets, which to my mind means that the law was not being enforced. On top of all this is, to those of us who are Christians, is the New Testament, where you will find Christ's dictum to turn the other cheek and the apostle Paul writing in Ephesians to: [11] Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil. [12] For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens. [13] Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground. [14] So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, [15] and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace. [16] In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all (the) flaming arrows of the evil one. [17] And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

289 TMF  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:56:01am

Im bored stiff of the affaire Plame, but this analysis from Cliff May gets to the bare bones of it all:

Two possibilities and a world of difference between them:
1) Rove knowingly exposed a covert CIA agent as a way to “punish” Joe Wilson.
2) Rove was asked why the Bush administration would send someone like Joe Wilson to Africa on a secret mission for the CIA. Rove answered: “We didn’t. His wife works at the CIA. She got him the assignment.”
If it’s (1) Rove did wrong and probably deserves to be prosecuted.
If it’s (2) Rove was merely telling the truth to a reporter about a curious situation -- unusual perhaps, but hardly criminal or even scandalous.
know which I think is more likely. I’m not sure that will matter much to the MSM which smells blood in the water
290 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:56:04am

#227 Roger:

That passage in the Koran is a copycat version of the story of Abraham offering up his son Isaac to G*d who asked him to demonstrate his faith by doing so. Abraham complied and at the last minute G*d withdrew his request. His OBJECT was to test Abraham's faith in G*d.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In typical fashion, when whoever wrote these Suras and Hadiths etc. came to this part of copycatting the Holy Bible, this is the version they came up with. Islam is 600 or so years YOUNGER than Christianity. But many of the verses in the Koran and the later writings sound familiar to Christian and Jewish ears since Christianity's moral code is based, originally, on the Old Testament and then later on the New Testaments written by disciples of Jesus. But Islam which came along 600 years later, simply took many of the parables and stories of events in the bible and put an Islamic 'spin' on them and said they were 'divinely revealed to Mohammed'. NOT! They simply copycatted and then added their own inflection so that any exhortations in the verses accrue to the benefit of the Muslim.

291 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:56:15am

Good morning, all.

When I first started posting here, somebody (I can't remember who) used to say (paraphrasing): There is no room on this planet for a religion that says believe as I do, convert, or die.

I think that pretty much says it all. Jews and Christians don't force their religions on anyone else under threat of death. Islam does. 'Nuff said.

292 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:56:25am
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

Such a pity the Meccans didn't apply that to Mohammad.

293 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:56:43am

#272 American Infidel:

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

There are some in there...I only searched "kind", not "love" yet... but I could build an argument saying there are more killin' verses...but when you use religious texts a favorite argument is "you're taking it out of context."

294 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:57:42am

#290 foreign devil, no. Not the one I'm refering to. Moses being 'taught' by his islamic companion. That one.

295 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:58:06am

# 264 KIllraven

Tell me about it. Now you can't have a lighter with you on a plane. Why ? Becuase of the "Shoe Bomber." What did the "Shoe Bomber" try to light his bomb with ? Matches. Can you still have matches ? Yup.

296 SwampWoman  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:58:21am

#287 USMC

Which direction am I driving?

4 hours from here is still in the middle of nowhere.

Four hours northwest sounds like a nice direction. I'm sure the puppies would like a road trip.

297 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:59:49am

#295 Mike C.

Reminds me of the last time I flew. I was the only person wearing sneakers (which is what the Shoe Bomber tried to set off) -- everybody in my group and around me had other types of shoes on. They all had to remove their shoes; I didn't...

298 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 4:59:57am

#279 Roger

Maybe "dubious" was not the best term, but it cannot be denied that there are even exortations to violence in the OT. The main point (as in #282) is that Jews and Christians do not use those statement to justify violence (well, a couple of years ago I stumbled across the website of a fundamentalist christian sect which did exactly that, but those are truly a tiny minority).


#275 Lively

But everyone thinks I'm a lunatic for saying the London commuters were not "innocent" in Islam's eyes.

That's an important point that many seems to forget. You can try to convince people that there is an objective classification of values, but in the end it often won't work, and things will revert back to the "my tribe vs. your tribe" situation.

299 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:00:22am

#296 Swampy

Hi, Swamps. How'd you make out in the storm?

300 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:00:48am

#288 templar, yes! The teachings of Jesus and the Apostles do not require FabioC.'s evolution. If FabioC. took time to read it.

301 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:01:08am

#TMF:

Well...we already know Rove is passive/aggressive. He'll get you when you're not expecting it. So...my guess is it's the first but ALSO partly the second.

He found himself in the perfect situation to kill two birds with one stone and when asked the question,...simply dropped Wilson and his wife (no shrinking violets from publicity, they!) in it! I'd have done the same. I still don't think, even technically, he's actually guilty of anything. That's the beauty of it. AND he's managed to stir up a hornet's nest on the other side without breaking a sweat. He must be HOWLING with laughter! I would be!

302 SwampWoman  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:02:11am

#299 CTP

Hi, Swamps. How'd you make out in the storm?

No problems except even the McDonald's were closed driving through Alabama Sunday.

303 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:02:25am

RECON

South...to the land of the Moonbats!

304 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:03:15am

#298 FabioC., ok. Our US marines aren't taught to be violent? Is all violence a bad thing? The OT says there is a time for love, a time for hate, a time for peace, a time for war, etc. Hate is a bad thing?

305 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:03:41am

Muslims whooping it up after the bombings and inventing fake hate crimes, again, is all I need to see.

Whenever you ask for "Christians" you get McVeigh and Rudolph. Two strikes. The only Jew is the guy who shot up the mosque and went to jail.

306 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:04:32am

#302 Swamps

Glad to hear it -- no great loss having MickeyD's closed, in my book...

#303

South...to the land of the Moonbats!

{loppyd} -- I gave you that hug in spite of your calling God's Country that -- see that it doesn't happen again...

307 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:04:38am

#293 Lively:

Ahhh yes, but...has there been a 'hadith' later wiping out that sura? If so, the 'hadith' is the one which applies.

308 quark2  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:04:45am

G'morning all.

I see we're reading dead wood publications this morning.
Is anyone watching Fox News? Big bust going on in London in regards to the bombings.

BTW...I noticed that once again someone has posted a link to a private website without asking. There's already been a big stink over at
our not favourite w@tch spot and it's getting tiresome. Please please email someone who was at the meetup about viewing the pics.

309 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:04:49am

# 282 TalkinKamel

Damn, time to step in it again.

...and this is why you are so sure that "most Moslems" don't support terrorism.

Actually, they don't, you know. Palestinians may be the exception that proves the rule. Have travelled extensively in the muslim world, but my Arabic wass atrocious, even when I was practicing. Sorry.

310 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:05:07am

#293 lively

great. perfect example...of hate.
Did you even read it before you posted it?
What it says is that anyone who doesn't stand in the way of your conquest of the infidels is " surely loved " by allah. Nice. So, as long as we let the muslim horde kill and mame and try to run the world, we're all ok with allah. *spit!

" deal with them justly ", where Islam is concerned is a no-brainer. NO THANKS.

311 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:05:21am

#268 Powderfinger:

Ahhh...the MEMRI sermons. I like the MEMRI sermons because they're usually pulled off "government sponsored" television...and if the government sponsors it, it can't be just a tiny fraction of muslims who believe the killin' message.

312 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:07:15am

#291

"Jews and Christians don't force their religions on anyone else under threat of death. Islam does. 'Nuff said."

Well, I'd change that to Christians don't force their religions on anyone else under threat of death anymore. Islam still does (f*cking medievalists).

(And Jews never did.)

313 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:07:39am

Beagle - If you're talking about Dr Baruch Goldstein:

The only Jew is the guy who shot up the mosque and went to jail.

He was bludgeoned to death by people in the mosque.

314 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:08:24am

#311 Lively

The Friday sermons are a great place to start. Lutherans have settled down in 500 years.

315 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:09:21am

#305 Beagle, and McVeigh is questionable. His choice of benediction was suspect. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Not likely a Christian dying because of his faith in Jesus Christ.

316 loppyd  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:09:39am

Swamps!

{Swamps}

Happy to hear you made it home safe & sound!

317 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:10:18am

#312 Isadore, how many people did Jesus force?

318 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:10:38am

#312 Isadore

So what's your point? As others have noted above, Christianity have evolved beyond that garbage, Islam hasn't.

Let's deal with the hear and now, shall we? I think Jews are more worried about getting killed by a live Muslim than a long-dead Christian...

319 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:10:42am

# 297 ctp

Loafers. Preferrably an old, well broken-in pair. And take off all your body piercing jewelry, too.

320 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:12:05am

#315 Roger

doesn't matter... anyone that can barely be possibly in some small way considered some off-shoot of christianity will be called a christian by the media, and then believed by the people of the united states.

mcveigh... he killed alot of people... but he prayed once.. CHRISTIAN!

abortion clinic bombers? well, they said they were christian, so it must be true...


pfft. too many people in the world are anti-christian, and not enogh people call them on it.

321 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:12:16am

#310 Owl
Good on ya.

When I debate, I try and anticipate what they're gonna write back before I post. If someone digs up that verse, I bet they will be as hasty as I was and not read the verses before/after it.

322 Powderfinger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:12:39am

#305 Beagle

Whenever you ask for "Christians" you get McVeigh and Rudolph. Two strikes. The only Jew is the guy who shot up the mosque and went to jail.

Of course, McVeigh has been executed (and wasn't motivated by religious beliefs), Rudolph is serving 4 consecutive life terms, and Baruch Goldstein was immediately beaten to death by the muslims he attacked.

So, here's my next question: How many Muslims have been prosecuted and sentenced by their fellow muslims for killing non-muslims?

323 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:13:01am

LIVELY

that you show them kindness and deal with them justly

show me where they are walkin the walk...

324 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:13:44am

#319 Mike C.

All the folks with loafers had to remove them -- I didn't have to remove my sneakers, ergo, they were the ones inconvenienced, not me.

And for the record, I have no piercings or tats, for that matter...

325 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:14:05am

#304 Roger

I think I never said something like that.

The Bible in itself did not evolve, but its interpretation did. Do I need to refresh the status of Christianity during the Middle Ages?

326 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:14:32am

Yeah, can someone point out where Christians ever forced anyone to convert or die? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it sure wasn't taught in my Sunday School. Anyone got a linky to some info? Need the info...freakin' sharks with lazerbeams...

327 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:14:55am

#312 Isadore

Just reread my #318 post to you, and it read kind of snarky -- I didn't intend it that way... My apologies if you took it like that...

:)

328 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:15:00am

#318 christheprofessor, correction. Christianity devolved. Islam can't.

329 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:16:26am

#325 FabioC., yes the Middle Ages it evolved. Now it has devolved.

330 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:16:27am

#313 Smit

That's the guy. I've been hearing about it as a moral equivalence ever since. It's not a bad moral equivalence, but in a world of proportion ultimately pointless. What's interesting is the Israeli "inquiry" into the shooting, not just an investigation. The perp was dead. They could have tied a bow around it.

331 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:16:34am

#321 lively - was there more before and after? Where are you looking if you don't mind? I would love to find a " koran" site online where you could read the real deal - is there something like that or do you have the DW copy?

thanks
owl

332 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:17:08am
#317 Roger 7/12/2005 07:10AM PDT

#312 Isadore, how many people did Jesus force?

So you think the pogroms of the Crusades don't represent Christianity sort of like Qaeda attacks don't represent Islam?

And I don't hold Jesus personally responsible for abortion clinic bombings.

333 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:17:19am

#325 Fabio C

and do I need to refresh the idea that they weren't christians, despite what they called themselves? *grin*

334 quark2  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:17:21am

@312 Isadore

Those who did the forcing of conversion down unbelievers throats are not and were not followers of Christ. They never walked the talk.
What in the Bible is labeled as goats.

335 SwampWoman  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:18:05am

#316 LoppyD

Yes, sorry you missed it! I think you would have been impressed by the quality and quantity of young unattached male minions on display.

336 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:18:23am

326 Owl

careful. The inquisitions were a dark part of Christian history, and Torqamata(sp) was as evil a guy as any mohamedite..but...we..unlike islum..have grown past that!

337 alkmyst  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:18:25am

I'm having one of those bigel moments...

Tuesday, July 12, 2005

Belgium: PA textbooks not anti-Semitic
Sheera claire Frenkel, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 12, 2005


Although a new report states that some Palestinian Authority textbooks feature descriptions of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as being an "integral part" of Zionist history that was approved in "a confidential resolution of the First Zionist Congress," the Belgian government says it is
continuing to fund production of the textbooks and does not consider them offensive.

"We do not find [the textbooks] anti-Semitic in any way," said a spokesman from the Belgian government press office, speaking to The Jerusalem Post by telephone. "We have a screening process that goes through and reads the books. There has been some controversy about it in the past, but we have had people look into it."

However, other countries may be having second thoughts. While Finland, Italy and the Netherlands have also provided aid for PA textbooks in the past, this year's books only credit Belgium and "Arab nations" as providing aid.

338 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:18:52am

I'd be curious to know how long McVeigh was in the Middle East while serving in Gulf War I and if he came in contact with adherents of Islam who, perhaps, converted him?

339 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:19:30am

OOOH. Knights! ...hmmm...I'd have to do some research. I'm not so sure that it wasn't something much like what we're supposedt o swallow about modern-day Islam.
Wonder how many peasants thought killing somene that wasn't a Christian was a good idea. Oh heck, I bet they all looked forward to the market entertainment. :(

anyway,...nevermind. I got it.

340 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:19:40am

# 324 ctp

Sorry, but I just don't wear sneakers - ever. Don't even own a pair. I'm so practiced by now that by the time I get up to the X-ray machine, everything is ready to just toss in the bins and throw on the belt. And if you're claiming you don't have at least a kilo of metal stuck through various parts of your body, I want pictoral evidence. Inquiring lizards want to know.

# 326 Owl

See "The Spanish Inquisition."

341 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:19:51am
#327 christheprofessor 7/12/2005 07:14AM PDT

#312 Isadore

Just reread my #318 post to you, and it read kind of snarky -- I didn't intend it that way... My apologies if you took it like that...

I took no offense at either post. Snarky is ok IMO. I have a thick skin.

342 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:20:24am

#332 Isadore

So you think the pogroms of the Crusades

please tell me you're using the generic definition of "create mass havok through destruction" for pogrom... and that you don't really believe that the purpose of the Crusades was to kill Jews... 'cause that's old.

343 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:20:33am

#327 Roger

I'm not sure what you mean, unless it is that any change is some sort of de-evolution. I would argue that, if it's true that Christianity used to teach to convert or die and it no longer does, that it has evolved, assuming "evolved" has a positive connotation and "devolved" a negative connotation. Perhaps I'm making too much of the semantics...

344 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:21:20am

#332 Isadore

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

345 foreign devil  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:21:41am

Police have shut down a rail station and a parking lot in Luton, England. Luton, you will remember, is home to a LOT of radical Muslims, some of whom were featured a year or so ago in an article about how these young radicals sit around in the local KFC, scarfing chicken and plotting rebellion.

346 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:22:07am

#220 'Nam Greunt

hell the DUmmies even have a batch

Yeah the link was open posted here Friday night. Didn't make it hard for them to find them.

347 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:22:48am

3332 Isadore

And I don't hold Jesus personally responsible for abortion clinic bombings.


I believe Rudolph called himself a nihilist. I'm sure he didn't speak for Jesus.

We can go with Wahhabi-funded terror, Qutbian terror, Salafi terror, (basic) Islamic jihadi terror, Arab terror (wrong), or overzealous religious outreach efforts. I liked "cleansing relgious movement" from that BBC Nightmares piece of crap.

You can't pin any pogroms on me. There were no witnesses.

348 alegrias  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:22:49am

OT pet peeve: why can't our wimpy DC Metro ask its riders to be much more vigilant for packages & odd behavior and demand we exit the trains & stations on the double march? We riders need to be ready to rumble (we are at war with people who attack commuters) yet Metro asks us only to "assist" them in keeping us safe. Give my Rumsfield's Civil Defense program--you mess with my country, I'll beat you with my purse, to paraphrase Black George Bush a few days back.

Metro stations remain poorly lit, cluttered with free Washington Post papers and hamstrung by clueless people who stand on the escalators instead of walking up to clear the way so riders can egress twice as fast.

Chertoff rambles on about the color alert system. Big Deal.

Teach people how to scramble & move out with purpose instead of lollygagging down under.

349 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:23:45am

Tortuga? Ninja turtles? :)

350 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:23:48am

Beagle- Actually the guy who shot up the Mosque was killed by an Israeli officer.

351 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:24:27am

Hello, Lizards. Ex-hurrican Dennis has decided to visit us here, so we're getting much needed rain.

Oh, and Lance:

*tackle*

352 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:24:36am

#346 BenZacharia,

Yeah I saw that!

/shakes my head.

353 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:25:15am
#334 quark2 7/12/2005 07:17AM PDT

@312 Isadore

Those who did the forcing of conversion down unbelievers throats are not and were not followers of Christ.

If there is a world in 1000 years, and Muslim reform is possible, we'll be hearing the same thing about bin Laden...heck we hear it now about bin Laden.

The "goat" period of Christianity lasted how long?

354 SwampWoman  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:25:18am

#348 alegrias

Metro stations remain poorly lit, cluttered with free Washington Post papers and hamstrung by clueless people who stand on the escalators instead of walking up to clear the way so riders can egress twice as fast.

Chertoff rambles on about the color alert system. Big Deal.

Teach people how to scramble & move out with purpose instead of lollygagging down under.

After they get trampled a few times by speedy egressors, perhaps they will learn to move their ass.

355 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:25:40am

#351 vxbush

*grin* I could use a tackle or two... rough day at work, and its only 9:30...

356 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:25:52am

#340 Mike C.

LOL. No metal and no ink, I promise...

I understand about sneakers vs. loafers -- sneakers are more of a hassle, but there are times when they make more sense (e.g., walking the dog...). I'm about 80% loafers, 19.5% sneakers, and .5% dress shoes, timewise...

357 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:26:06am

#343 christheprofessor, I know that is what has been implied to the terms. However there has been no scientific evidence that evolution is positive and deevolution is negative. The point is 'Christians' evolved/deevolved away from the teachings of Jesus Christ and now we are back. pick the mechanism; ->evolved->deevolved ot ->deevolved->evolved:-)

358 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:26:42am

#353 Isadore

so are you just anti-christian? or do you love islam that much? (or maybe both) to compare the two.

359 Smit  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:27:06am

#330 Beagle - Exactly.

360 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:27:39am

I just got word that the biggest oil platform ever built for the Gulf of Mexico, Thunder Horse, a BP-Shell project tension legged platform, a 1.2 billion plus facility, is sinking due Hurricane Dennis.


I have pictures, and yes, it looks like it is sinking. Anybody with a clickable name and the ability to turn my pix into links, volunteer. The platform is already almost all the way over.

361 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:27:48am

355 lance

Sorry to hear that. I've actually had fun today so far: did some scanning, did some stats, and now I get a bit of a break before I get back to another project.

ChrisThe: sneakers 99% of the time. Happy feet.

362 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:28:00am

Ok, ok, I got it. It wasn't Christians. Whew.
Did a little refresher on the Span. inq's and it was Catholics!

( sorry to all the Christian Catholics out there. ;) )

363 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:28:08am

#353 Isadore, you can't be seriously that goofy? bin Laden hasn't aspired to Mohammed's level of evil just yet, Not even close.

---
gotta work:-/

364 Semper Gumbi  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:28:40am

#348 Alegrias

cluttered with free Washington Post papers

Actually, those are Washington Examiner papers, the new Washington Daily. I've only had a chance to read one issue so I don't have an opinion of it as to whether it is a good paper or not.

OTOH, it gave me something to read the other day while riding the rails.

365 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:28:55am

# 356 ctp

What ? Loafers AREN'T dress shoes ? Coulda fooled me. Deck shoes aren't dress shoes. Unless they're brand new, of course.

366 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:29:27am

#333 LanceKates

But that's running around in circles.

Whether it agreeed with Jesus' teachings or not, that was the face Christianity was showing at the time. Now it's different, and I much prefer the modern one.

And before going any further, I am agnostic and believe that there is no divine intervention in human affairs, and all holy books are actually the work of men.
I walked my path to reach this conclusion, and do not want to convert anyone.

367 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:30:04am
#342 LanceKates 7/12/2005 07:20AM PDT

#332 Isadore

So you think the pogroms of the Crusades
please tell me you're using the generic definition of "create mass havok through destruction" for pogrom... and that you don't really believe that the purpose of the Crusades was to kill Jews... 'cause that's old.

I'm saying the purpose of pogroms is to kill Jews.

368 quark2  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:30:24am

Looks like Britain has had their first suicide bomber. The bus bomber has been identified.

369 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:31:07am

368 quark2

Linky?

370 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:31:41am

#360 Ed...

Oh crap, Thunderhorse is sinking?
For the little I know about that project, it looked really cool. Such a shame.

I could host a few pics on my blog, eventually.

371 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:31:41am

#365 Mike C.

Yes, you are correct and even psychic! I was erroneously equating loafers with deck shoes -- I should say deck shoes 80%, sneakers 19.5%, and loafers (dress shoes, no laces) .5%...

My bad...

372 'Nam Grunt  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:31:44am

#368 quark2,

Did they find one of the moles from his filthy face.

373 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:32:42am

# 360 Ed

Where did you find that ? Is it all over the usual oil field trash sites ? Haven't heard that before.

# 362 Owl

Nice to see that anti-Catholic prejudice is alive and well here at LGF.

374 j-damn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:33:13am
Now you can't have a lighter with you on a plane. Why ? Becuase of the "Shoe Bomber."

You can't have a lighter because of the accelerant, doofus.

375 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:33:16am

#331 Owl

Searchable Koran

376 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:33:20am

#367 Isadore

I'm saying the purpose of pogroms is to kill Jews.

so you think the Crusades were designed to kill Jews...

*smirk*

and who, might I ask, spoon fed you that?

*smirk*

were jews killed, yes. was that the purpose of the crusades? no.. and its beyond silly to say so. (and yes, i've read the information that says the crusades were there to kill jews... and yes... it is a silly assertion.)

so, are you anti-christian? is that your goal? to give Christians a bad name?

377 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:33:22am

Fabio- Pix on the way, if your email can handle about half a meg total file attachments.

378 Sarah D.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:33:42am

Sanction call over Israel barrier

The Palestinian Authority has urged global action against firms which supply Israel with products to build its controversial West Bank barrier.
379 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:34:18am
380 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:35:20am

Fabio, when you get the pixs up, please post. I'm curious about sinking platform.

381 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:35:38am

Update from the Leeds raid: an Army EOD team used explosives to blast into a suspect unoccupied house. Apparently, interesting (but unspecified) material has been found inside.

382 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:35:54am

thanks lively. I'll go reaserach it, and who puts it out, and try to see if it's legit and not a dhimmi version. ( anyone here already know about the site lively linked to - have any info on it i should know? )

thanks for the link.

owl

383 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:36:08am

#366 Fabio

Whether it agreeed with Jesus' teachings or not, that was the face Christianity was showing at the time.

they weren't christian. Sure..they operated the church... but that doesn't make them christian. (If I go in a McDonalds, do I become a cheeseburger? no)

that was a dark period for christianity because christians became the minority in their own churches. a period of time where the papacy was more concerned with exerting power of the king, then with serving God.

the concept of "One cannot have two masters" was lost.

384 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:36:20am
#373 Mike C. 7/12/2005 07:32AM PDT


Nice to see that anti-Catholic prejudice is alive and well here at LGF.

It's anti-Catholic to suggest that Catholics had something to do with the Spanish Inquisistion?!

(Do we have to wait 1000 years before we accuse the Islamists for 9/11?)

385 Geepers  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:36:46am

Lively (#255),

that's just a bunch of old stories and most muslims do not feel that way today.

On what facts do you base this declarative statement?

386 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:36:56am

378 Sarah D

You notice the PA has to call for a "global action" because a boycott within the PA would result in: nothing. So they have to get other people to boycott for them.

Hmmm, I'm noticing a trend here...

387 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:37:06am

# 374 j-damn

Oh, really ? Try talking your way past security with a Zippo. And yes, I've seen 'em confiscate them right in front of me. No accelerant. Doofus yourself.

388 Sarah D.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:37:38am

#367 Isadore

The many Armenians slaughtered by Turkish pogroms would be interested to hear that I'm sure.

389 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:37:54am

Mike, anonymous source at Shell emailed me pix, TLP is about 40 degrees over, with topsides starting to submerge.


Word there is that this is going down.

$1.2 billion, 6 years in the works, to tap the largest oil field in the Gulf.

390 j-damn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:38:02am
Metro stations remain poorly lit, cluttered with free Washington Post papers and hamstrung by clueless people who stand on the escalators instead of walking up to clear the way so riders can egress twice as fast.

Ugh, don't get me started. What's your favorite station, Smithsonian?

391 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:38:31am

#387 mike C

someone would make a good business selling disposable lighters in the luggage claim area of airports... for all the smokers who've just had to go 3 to 4 hours without a cig.

392 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:38:32am

OK< SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOUR SITE THERE LIVELY. :)

I searched on infidel and infidels and there were " no search results ".
Is that strange or is it just me?


owl

393 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:39:57am
#376 LanceKates 7/12/2005 07:33AM PDT


so, are you anti-christian? is that your goal? to give Christians a bad name?

I'm not anti-christian. I'm just anti-pogrom.

Are you pro-pogrom? (That's hard to say.)

394 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:40:10am

# 384 Isadore

Did I say that ? I don't think I said that. Get back to me if you have proof to the contrary.

395 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:40:18am

#357 (the Magnum Post!) Roger

Okay, I get it...

I would say that if evolution involves adaptability to one's environment and anbetter chance of survivability, all else being equal and taken in isolation, it is a net positive. If the opposite is true, de-evoloution results in a lessened chance of survivability, which I would call a net negative.

But again, pure semantics... Doesn't really get to the issue of, only extremely radical Christians or Jews would threaten others with death if they didn't believe as they did, and they would be roundly denounced, and certainly not followed, by other Christians or Jews. Radical Muslims blow people up left and right, cut the heads off of bound infidels, etc., and we rarely hear a peep of denunciation from "mainstream" Muslims (recall the turnout for the Muslims against terrorism demonstration in DC a couple of months ago?). Which makes one wonder exactly what "mainstream" Muslims actually believe...

396 j-damn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:40:24am
Oh, really ? Try talking your way past security with a Zippo. And yes, I've seen 'em confiscate them right in front of me. No accelerant. Doofus yourself.

Originally, I heard that Zippos were exempt from the ban. Then some genius probably figured out that you can start something else on fire and then remove the accelerant-soaked cotton from INSIDE the Zippo to assist your pyromaniac intentions.

Doofus. ;)

397 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:40:29am

Press release from BP

398 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:40:37am

389 Ed

Whoa. Now I really want to see the pictures. Were they actually pumping oil up, or had they not started yet?

399 2X4 wielder  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:40:41am

#332 Isadore -- Eric Rudolph, the abortion clinic bomber, was a member of Christian Identity which is a neo-nazi group/cult that has nothing to do with main stream Christianity. For instance they believe that Christ was an Aryan with blond hair and blue eyes. They believe that present day Jews are imposters who have stolen the identity of the "true jews" who were Aryan in race. CHristian Identity isn't Christian, at all except in name.

Iconoclastic Biblical fundamentalism [Christian Identity: from Wikipedia]

Interpreting the Book of Genesis, many Christian Identity followers assert that Adam and Eve were preceded by other, lesser races, identified as "the beasts of the field" (Gen. 1:25). Eve was seduced by the snake (Satan) and gave birth to two seed lines: Cain, the direct descendant of Satan and Eve, and Abel, who was of good Aryan stock through Adam. Cain then became the progenitor of the Jews in his subsequent matings with the non-Adamic races. This is referred to as the dual-seedline doctrine (the other races are considered by dual-seedliners to be descended from animals). There are other interpretations within Christian Identity, such as single-seedline doctrine, the main belief of which is that all the races are desecended from Adam and Eve, but that only whites are the chosen of God. Some believe that the Jews used to be the chosen of God and then "lost" God's choice when they failed to accept Christ, some believe they never were the chosen.

Christian Identity adherents believe the Jews are predisposed to carry on a conspiracy against the Adamic seed line and today have achieved almost complete control of the earth. (Kaplan, Radical Religion in America)

Eric Rudolph is a first class nut and not a CHristian in any real sense.

400 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:40:44am

Pics received, and under way of publication.

Sure it is not confidential information, tho?

401 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:41:12am

Not suprisingly, the term " jihad " also produces NO RESULTS.

Give me a break. Obviously, this is the dhimmi version.
what a waste of time.

402 Powderfinger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:41:18am

#360 Ed

This picture says plenty.

Oy. $3.00/gallon, here we come.

403 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:41:44am

#393 Isadora

classic... try to smokescreen by claiming that the person you're talking to is anti-semite.

what i'm against is people slamming christianity. i'm tired of anti-christians trying to drag christianity's name in the mud. sorry. doesn't fly with me anymore.

404 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:43:12am

No, it seems like some of the pix are already in the public domain, and a zillion people work for Shell anyway.

405 Mike C.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:44:11am

# 384 Ed

Thanks for the info. I'll scour the sites tomorow. This one is not likely to be kept secret. 40 degrees is the same as gone.

# 391 lancekates

You got that right. My next flight is 14 hours. Bummer.

406 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:45:05am

#368 quark2

I heard on the news yesterday that they weren't calling him/her a suicide bomber because they believed s/he was trying to get off the bus and the bomb went off prematurely. Don't know how they would know that, perhaps they were separated at the time of ignition...

407 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:45:31am

#405 MikeC

it tastes gross (my opinion) but you might want to get some niccorette gum for the flight (Chewing gum is supposed to help the whole pressure change thing, and its niccotteine) its not cheap though. (Of course, you could just get chew and have a bottle with you ;-) )

408 Yank in the EU  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:45:49am

#373 Mike C.

Nice to see that anti-Catholic prejudice is alive and well here at LGF.

Have you see a lot of anti-Catholic prejudice on LGF. I'm Catholic - maybe you could e-mail me when that was?

409 J.D.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:46:50am

My sister-in-law needed a lighter when she arrived at the airport on her return flight. One of the security guards gave her a lighter that had been confiscated earlier.
Sometimes, I just don't know...

410 Yank in the EU  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:49:21am

#408 forgot a "?"

411 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:49:36am
#388 Sarah D. 7/12/2005 07:37AM PDT

#367 Isadore

The many Armenians slaughtered by Turkish pogroms would be interested to hear that I'm sure.

We were just talking about the Crusades (and this is becoming ridiculous).

My final argument:

To talk about the 'purpose' of the Crusades, is like talking about the 'purpose' of global terror. We're talking about mass murder committed by religious zealots, acting under the banner of Christianity and Islam respectively. I'm not arguing that Christianity and Islam are equivalent, that Jesus is a murderer or any such thing. Only that the Crusades were very very bad for the Jews, and many *Christians* here need to get over it. I'm sick of being branded an over- sensitive Jew because some Christians can't take repsonsibility for their own shit.

412 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:51:48am

#410 Yank

you know..I had to reread that to find where you for the ?


my mind put one in where it should have been...

I guess I read too many TFK posts... I mentally insert grammar marks.*grin*

413 Powderfinger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:54:02am

#411 Isadore

I'm sick of being branded an over- sensitive Jew because some Christians can't take repsonsibility for their own shit.

Which Christians are those you're referring to? Long dead ones?

414 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:54:21am
#403 LanceKates 7/12/2005 07:41AM PDT

#393 Isadora

classic... try to smokescreen by claiming that the person you're talking to is anti-semite.

That's hilarious (and deeply hypocritical). I was making a joke based on your calling me "anti-christian" early on. You put up the smokescreen. And I never called you anti-semitic.

415 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:55:04am

Isidore, Srah, Yank, everybody.


Can't we all just get along?


For the children?

416 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:55:56am

#411 Isadore

I'm sick of being branded an over- sensitive Jew because some Christians can't take repsonsibility for their own shit.

With all due respect, I'm not going to take responsibility for what others did in the name of Christianity, in the same way I am neither going to take responsibility nor pay reparations for slaves I didn't own just because I am white, regardless of what Jesse Jackson and his ilk want...

417 alegrias  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:56:06am

Wonder if the jihadists are still miffed and smarting because a Catholic female monarch, Isabel, and her reputedly pretty boy spouse, Fernando, kicked their collective islamic behinds out of Spain--admittedly during the nasty Inquisition, a time of equal opportunity discrimination in Catholic Spain and most of christendom?

418 SwampWoman  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:56:08am

#415 Ed

ROFL! Yes, my delicate nature is gettin' chapped here.

419 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:56:25am

#411 Isadore

I'm sick of being branded an over- sensitive Jew because some Christians can't take repsonsibility for their own shit.

yes...because I was part of the crusades.. so I should take responsibility for them... of course, by that same note, i was also a slave owner, and should give back to the african-american community for the slaves I owned. (well, I didn't ... but its possible to associate me with them, so its just the same)

do you take responsibility for the killing of the Caananites by the soldiers lead by Joshua? *laugh* I'd hope not.

so don't be asking me to 'take responsibility' for something done by people who have been dead for 500 years.

and don't get in a tissy when you come up against people like me who get a touch ticked when Christians get blamed for actions done by people who weren't doing christianly things in the name of Christ.

420 Yank in the EU  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:57:34am

#412 LanceKates

I've been woefully dependent on Microsoft spellchecking for many, many years :)

Everytime I read TFK I get a headache and turn off the computer. I saw someone once recommended to him a good "English as a Second Language" program - I think sincerely. lol.

421 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:58:08am
#413 Powderfinger 7/12/2005 07:54AM PDT

#411 Isadore

I'm sick of being branded an over- sensitive Jew because some Christians can't take repsonsibility for their own shit.

Which Christians are those you're referring to? Long dead ones?

Fine. I concede.

The Crusades were noble. They represent the first battle in the Eternal World War against Islam. Jews and Christians have always been united in this epic righteous struggle.

422 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:58:40am

Woe on computers!

The pictures Ed sent me apparently are normal JPGs, but I can't manage to open neither post them!

423 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:58:43am

#420 Yank

lol..that's funny. he told me once what he did... so he has to be able to speak and write at least fairly well... its all a rant/act. he might be a bit unhindged, but he understands grammar.

424 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 5:59:38am
425 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:00:01am

Intersesting religious talk.

Has anyone ever heard the term RINO? As in, Arlen Specter is a RINO?

Now, why do suppose he is called a RINO? Could it be that he labels himself one while DENYING every major tenet of being a Rebuplican?

Now let's apply this to religions.

Muslim MINO = Cultural doesn't really follow the Q'ran

Jewish JINO = Cultural doesn't really follow the Tenach, doesn't believe in G-d, but to gutless to call themselves an atheist.

Christian CINO = Jesus not G-d, G-d the Mother not Father (IF there really is a G-d), supports abortion, protests captital punishment, sexusal perversion? what sexual perversion?, basicly calls everything G-d calls sin 'Okay Dokay'.

426 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:01:08am

#419 LanceKates, Joshua was an 85 year old man who took out 31 kings. More died due to hail then Joshua's men slew. This was a case of the indigenous people(Jews) winning instead of being wiped out by genocide.

427 SwampWoman  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:01:08am

When are the evil H. sapiens sapiens gonna take responsibility for the eradication of the peaceful, flower-plucking H. neaderthalensis?

428 FabioC.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:01:30am

I also have to work now, so maybe I'll try to post the pictures again later.

429 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:02:55am

#385 Geepers

Lively (#255),
that's just a bunch of old stories and most muslims do not feel that way today.

On what facts do you base this declarative statement?


I'm debating someone right now and they are saying muslims condemn the attack and the Koran is just history...not something going on now.

I know what I wrote sounds crazy...but the people I'm debating are starting at square one and it's hard for them to believe anything negative about Islam. Especially in this PC world.

430 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:03:18am
#419 LanceKates 7/12/2005 07:56AM PDT

so I should take responsibility for them... of course, by that same note, i was also a slave owner, and should give back to the african-american community for the slaves I owned.

No, you should just be able to admit that slavery was very very bad.

That's all I mean by responsibility.

I'm not asking you for reparations!

431 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:03:49am

BenZ:

I think there's a subset of CINO called CE Christians, the ones who attend church only on Christmas and Easter.

Then we could add MD christians, those who attend when they get married and when there is a death in the family.

I'm sure there are more.

432 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:06:13am

#430 Isadore, and are we free of slavery today? Or thru 'evolution'[*grin*] has it been refined?

433 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:06:32am

#430 Isadore

I'll agree with that -- lots of wrong has been done in the past in the name of all kinds of things. We shouldn't forget, such that we don't repeat the wrongs...

That said, I think we all know and agree about where the problems today originate, and they don't originate with Christians or Jews.

434 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:07:14am

#432 Roger

Hey! Stop that! :)

435 Pelayo  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:07:33am

Perhaps some distinctions are in order. The Crusades as authorized by the Pope had as their intention the restorration of the Holy Land from the Islamic Jihad that had conquered it it the 7th century together with most of the Christian Middle East and North Africa. To restore by force what was taken by force seems rather just.

However during the first three Crusades there were also mobs of zealots who attacked and massacred Jewish communities on their way to the Holy Land like Count Emicho during the First Crusade. Bishops such as Bishop John of Speyer and Bishop Adalbert of Worms tried to halt the attacks and protect the local Jews, in the latter case to little avail. In the Second Crusade St.Bernard of Clairveax himself a preacher of the Crusade successfully prevailed upon an errant Monk Radulph who had been inciting attacks on the Jews to end the attacks. As St.Bernard put it the Jews are "those whose flesh was shared by Christ whose name be forever blessed".

In short we should make a distinction between the just purposes of the Crusades, and the wicked and unauthorized actions of hate filled mobs.

436 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:08:05am

I lied. Topsides built in Morgan City, Hull built in Korea, mated in Ingleside, TX

437 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:08:36am

#434 christheprofessor, keyboard slipped. Accidently hit the Enter key before I could clean it up;-)

438 Beagle  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:09:10am

#383 LanceKates

a period of time where the papacy was more concerned with exerting power of the king, then with serving God


It was more about land and money. Both sides had points at various times. But you are correct about the temporal-spiritual struggle during a long period of the Middle Ages. If you want to geek out, this is the book.
I got around to reading the entire book 20 years after the class. I think mandatory reading makes it painful.

What is striking to me is the advanced, compared to Islam, state of debate over the various roles of church and state, priests and laity, bishop and lord, king and pope. Note: I'm comparing the Eleventh to Fourteenth Centuries of Christendom to modern Islam. Read it and see if you don't agree. St. Augustine, right out of the wrapper, makes good arguments on all sorts of issues, like war, peace, and justice. That pre-dates Islam.

439 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:10:39am
#435 Pelayo 7/12/2005 08:07AM PDT

In short we should make a distinction between the just purposes of the Crusades, and the wicked and unauthorized actions of hate filled mobs.

We should also make a distinction between good history and whitewash.

440 Yank in the EU  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:12:00am

#415 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

Can't we all just get along?

That's a good point, especially since nobody has even come close to exhibiting troll-ish behavior on this thread.

I would just add that the point of the Crusades was to drive the invading Muslim hordes out and to restore the Holy Land. The mass killing of Jewish villages by Catholic armies was evil, no doubt. But it is not true to claim these actions by a few of the armies represent the Crusades as a whole.

/off to real world affairs

441 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:12:24am

Fabio- instead of sending as attachments, I forwarded original email with sender info cut off.


That might work better.

442 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:12:51am

G-d nowhere says in the Tenach or New Covenant that there are other authoritative writings outside the Tenach or New Covenant

Some Jews will just have get over that one, However not the Karaites

Jew, by G-d's definition = Follows ALL 613 decrees that are possible, no Temple, no offerings, etc

Christians will have to get over that "The Purpose Driven Life" and Papal Bulls didn't come down from Sinia

Christian, by G-d's definition = Follows ALL 615 decrees that are possible and have not been abrogated by the coming of the Messiah, Messiah the ONLY way to salvation "Salvation is by grace ALONE lest any man should boast" good deeds are good deeds nothing else

443 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:15:02am

#426 Roger

Joshua was an 85 year old man who took out 31 kings. More died due to hail then Joshua's men slew. This was a case of the indigenous people(Jews) winning instead of being wiped out by genocide.

That's not quite what I read when I read the bible's OT... Joshua and his armies devistated so badly that people lied about where they were from to be spared from the sword. I'd say that Joshua and the Israelites did a pretty good job getting into the promised land.. only to have it mucked up by the neighboring countries.

444 alegrias  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:15:21am

OT -- thank you LGFrs for recommending the movie "Team America, World Police"--saw it last night and must admit it restores one's faith in our purpose of beating political terrorist islam. To think this was done by & for a very young demographic is especially heartening. Take that, bloviating Hollywood types.

After yesterday's comments about weaselly Ronnie Reagan Junior spouting LLL talking points, it was ironic to recall Ronald Reagan was once the macho & Communist fighting president of the Screen Actors Guild, a role played by piggish Alec Baldwin in the movie. Bwahaha. The kids are alright. See this movie and take courage.

445 Geepers  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:15:35am
No, you should just be able to admit that slavery was very very bad.

Yeah! Come on LanceKates quit promoting slavery in your denial to be responsible for it.

Isadore, I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "responsibility".

446 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:15:36am

#440 Yank in the EU, or to start yet another Gentile period of trampling?

Luke 21:24They will be brutally killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be conquered and trampled down by the Gentiles until the age of the Gentiles comes to an end.
447 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:18:14am
448 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:18:24am

442 BenZ

Regarding your definition of Christian: Are you familiar with the Council of Jerusalem's letter to gentile believers as recorded in Acts 15:22-29?


[22] Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. [23] With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. [24] We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. [25] So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— [26] men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. [27] Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. [28] It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: [29] You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

This is after the believers had already professed belief in Christ and had been baptized. There's a lot more that could be said here, but I just want to make sure first that I understand what you're saying.

449 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:18:38am

The rules for citing any writing are: Context is king = Text, Context, Greater Text.

Text without context is pretext.

Let the games begin.

450 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:18:56am
#445 Geepers 7/12/2005 08:15AM PDT
.
Yeah! Come on LanceKates quit promoting slavery in your denial to be responsible for it.

Isadore, I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "responsibility".

No, actually I don't think you understand the concept of intellectual responsibility in the context of our argument.

451 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:20:00am

#445 Geepers

its ok. i'm a straight white christian conservative male. its all my fault anyway. *grin*

452 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:20:22am

#442 BenZacharia, too hard. I can't do all 615. I fail all the time...

453 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:21:45am
454 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:22:24am

#443 LanceKates, read it again:-)

Joshua 10:11 As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.
455 TalkinKamel  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:22:31am

The Crusades are history, as are the battles described in the Old Testament.

We need to focus on what's happening today, not hundreds and/or thousands of years ago.

And Jews and Christians---and everybody else---need to unite against Islam.

456 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:23:47am

TalkingKamel:

Hear, hear. We need to keep repeating this over and over again.

457 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:23:52am
458 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:23:58am

#447 Ai

I don't mention it often, because past is past... but before the christian Paul was Paul... he was Saul, a very religious Jew who would spy and seek out people who might be christians, then report tham as idolaters... where they would be arrested and 'dealt with'. . . why don't I bring it up? beacause Paul is dead. and I wasn't around then.

I don't cast blame for actions in the past. I only look at what people do now. (To understand, i'll look to the past... and to predict, I'll look to the past... but I'm not going to Blame Jews for having christians stoned (i.e. Stephan, et al.) or blame Romans for killing christians (all the disciples except Judas who killed himself, and John who died of old age)...)

459 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:24:37am
#447 American Infidel 7/12/2005 08:18AM PDT

And I am sick of having Christianities past sins brought forth over and over...

...It appears that it was actually Jews that drew first blood in the so called Christian via Jew feud (this occurred wayyy past the time of J.C.)...

Maybe I should keep bringing this stuff up it helps expose the stranger beliefs of some LGF posters.

I for one am extremely curious about this purported "first blood" story. Sounds juicy.

460 quark2  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:24:46am

@369 vxbush

There's no linky. It's on Fox news broadcast

461 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:25:30am

#454 Roger

that's one battle... and the other battle at jericho was the same way... but the other battles fought were a tiny band of jewish soldiers against a massive army, and they always won. *shrug* God's help or not, they waged a massive war that they won. thankfully.

462 J.D.  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:27:55am

Can anyone provide Isadore with a link where that was already run into the ground so we don't have to go through it all again?

463 christheprofessor  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:28:13am

For what it's worth:

"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 60 years ago, a liberal 30 years ago and a racist today."

"It is bad enough that so many people believe things without any evidence. What is worse is that some people have no conception of evidence and regard facts as just someone else’s opinion." Thomas Sowell

From linky.

Well worth perusing...

464 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:28:48am

vxbush
First you may have missed 'abrogated'.

Second, what was going on and being taught to who is also muddied, as Paul was teaching the Corinthians (Luv that leather) how to keep Pesach.

Thirdly and its the best, men cannot not decide that they are going to overrule their G-d

Here's one from Jesus

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

465 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:32:28am

Well, if that passes for anti-Catholic, I guess then, you see about 100% more anti-Christian/Jewish stuff then right?

Geesh. Next time, I'll just drop the "no offense" and we can really discuss the Catholic religion, when it's practiced outside of it's legitimate Christian roots. If you wanna go there, I can. BUT, I'd be more than happy to not get into a war over sects, cults and denominations. Sticking together fighting Islam is #1. Any Catholic, born-again Christian or not, that wants islam destroyed is ok by me.
You know, some things just seem mo' better with "anti-" in front of them. And some don't.
I suppose it's all a matter of what you believe.

466 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:33:49am

btw - {pimf}

my comment about Catholics was meant to be light-hearted... I believe most Catholics to be good-hearted, decent, moral people.

467 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:34:03am

#464 BenZacharia, yea the scribes and Pharisees really set a high bar;-)

468 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:36:28am
469 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:36:43am
470 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:38:15am

464 BenZ:

I am well aware of the scriptures you reference, and happily agree with them. "Salvation by grace alone" is one of thos fantastic verses. Yes, I did miss your using "abrogate."

The way I have heard many christians explain this is as follows: The Law was given to help us avoid sin, so we could identify it. But the law was external; once Jesus came, the law was then written on our hearts so that we wanted to follow the Law and could. Did it change the law or remove it? No. Paul even notes this in Romans (chapter 7, I believe). One of the Prophets talks about a heart of stone turning into a heart of flesh (Ezekiel? I can't recall) and having the Law written on the heart. Psalm 119 talks about the Law being written on the heart as well, but I believe this is in the form of a prayer.

There's a whole big discussion that could go on here, which for the sake of time and to be considerate of Charles' rules I will not go into. :-)

471 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:38:50am

Roger
BS brother, you keep more traffic laws in a day than there are G-ds Decrees. When you fail you repent pay the price and keep going, and hopefully are more careful.

472 Owl  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:39:07am

ps - God's def. of Christian is one who accepts Jesus as God's Son, and Savior who dies for the sins of the world, and to save us all from our own sinfulness. Period. That earlier posted def. of what it takes to be a "Christian" is almost comical. Almost.


owl

473 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:39:16am

#468 AI

you referenced my post... I actually do feel special. (See? it doesn't take much to make my day... *grin* )

474 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:41:34am

#470 vxbush

sometimes I WISH we just had to follow a bunch of external laws...

instead, we have to love.

you can follow laws and hate.

but you cannot love and do evil.

saved by grace alone is a blessing and a curse... we don't have to 'follow some laws' . . . we have to do much much more. (and thankfully Grace covers us when we fail)

if all we had to do was follow some laws, then what purpose did Jesus serve?

475 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:43:53am

Lance, in deference to Charles' wishes that we not get into religious discussions on his site, can I email you separately? I'm just trying to respect what Charles has asked in the past. He is our host, after all, and I don't want to make our host unhappy.

476 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:44:09am

#470 vxbush

the law was then written on our hearts so that we wanted to follow the Law and could

That was prophisied in, I believe Jeremiah.

477 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:45:02am

#474 LanceKates, and that is what Mohammed came to destroy.

478 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:45:28am

#475 vxbush

go ahead. click the name ;-) not sure how quickly I can respond to email, as I am at work, but I'll do what I can *grin*

479 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:46:37am

#477 Roger

well, Islam is only trying to destroy all that is good and peaceful in the world... no biggie...

*smirk*

480 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:46:48am

#475 vxbush, Charles has asked that? Uh oh. I have a lot of posts needing deleted. I crossed 3000 total yesterday:-)

481 SwampWoman  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:47:48am

#469 TaxFreeKiller

Perry told her that he would do his job, and she and the Federal Goverment whos job was to portect the borders should do theirs, so Maxine we do not need your other opinions here in TEXAS, and hung up...

you go TEXAS

TFK, while I was drvin' through Texas last week, I noticed that there were a LOT of Texas flags flyin', the star was incorporated into house decor, and Texas flag stickers were on a LOT of the motor vehicles.

I didn't see all that many US flags.

The Republic of Texas lives!

482 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:48:24am

lance..
You're missing the point nowhere have I posted that the law saves it doesn't, only the shed blood of an perfect innocent substitute does. The law defines sin as the transgressions of G-ds decrees, period, not rules made up by men, IE. don't dance, don't drink, don't use a light switch etc. ad infinitum, ad nuaseum.

483 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:48:26am

Roger: He doesn't mind occasional posts, but this isn't a religious chat site. He has asked in the past that such conversations be taken elsewhere after they carry on for many postings. I'll see if I can find a citation later, once I email Lance.

484 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:49:18am

#480 Roger

5,282 counting this post.

i didn't know that we shouldn't talk about religious things here. so i won't. (but that doesn't mean that I'm going to allow some anti-christian posts to go unthwapped.)

I've noticed that people who make anti-christian or anti-semitic statements normally look for places where people of good moral character wouldn't discuss religious things. that way there's no response to their attacks.

Kind of like a "Politics free work zone' normally means "Liberals can bash conservatives, who have to remain silent"

485 templar  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:49:37am

Not to mention that Urban II was offering eternal salvation to anyone who took up the cross and massacred a few unbelievers, which if one actually read the Scriptures you will find its not a promise that he could keep. For us Christians, salvation comes through Christ and Christ alone, not from the Pope. I'm not trying to bash Catholics, but that's the way I read it. By the by, J.R.R. Tolkien is my favorite author of all time, and was a very staunch Catholic. One of the problems that allowed Urban to make such a statement was that only the priests could read, so the populace had to have faith that their priests were not leading them wrong. Islam currently suffers the same problem. I wonder how long we'll have to wait for an Islamic Martin Luther.

486 Geepers  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:51:50am

vxbush (#475),

Never heard of such a request.

487 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:52:19am

#483 vxbush, where is a better site? JihadWatch? My registration is messed up there.

488 Pelayo  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:55:53am

#439 Isadore

I agree we should use solid historical sources. I have read alot on the Crusades-I think on the issue of the Crusades three things are clear in my mind:

1)the purpose of the Crusades was to restore the Holy Land that had been taken by force by 7th century Jihadists.
2)There were a minority of Crusaders who attacked Jewish communities killing probably thousands of people.
3)These attacks were not authorized, and there were Christian leaders who tired to stop them.

If you have historical evidence that disproves any of these propositions I wouyld be happy to take a look. Truth is the most important thing.

489 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:55:56am

Discussing what a document says is not a religious discussion. Its a textual critique. We do it all the time with the constitution. I don't need a bozo like Kennedy (either one) telling me what the contitution says, I can READ, I know history (same thing really).

Same with any book, don't tell ME what someone else says it means, remember I can READ?

490 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 6:59:59am

vxbush?

491 Lively  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:00:04am

#453 American Infidel said
"Now, apply the following to this verse/chapter:

1) Were they Meccan or Medinan?!?!?!?
2) The concept of Abrogation...

Once you do apply points #1 & #2 to what you copied & pasted, post what you have found..."

Hmmm...You know more than me.

What's diff between Meccan and Medinan. I thought is was all muslim.

I haven't studied Koranic abrogation...something I will look in to. Didn't know it existed.

Ack! I thought I knew it all. ;)

492 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:02:34am

#490 Roger

she's sending me an email.

493 Pelayo  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:02:45am

#485 Templar

The purpose of the Crusades was not to "massacre unbelievers" but to restore the Holy Land to Christian rule. The Holy Land had been Christian before Islamic armies took it after the battle of Yarmuk in 636.

Non-Catholics lived relatively peacefully in the Latin Kingdom of Jersualem. Had the goal been simply to massacre non-believers that would not have been the case.

494 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:03:06am

owl
I hope that wasn't a smarmy comment. Stand up people address their comments to an individual, not make snide remarks in crowd.

495 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:04:29am

#492 LanceKates, so?

;-)

496 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:06:08am

#495 Roger

well, that's why she might not be posting. must be a long email too. *grin*

(though I feel special nonetheless. *grin * )

497 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:15:49am

Lance, don't feel too special. The mail isn't that long. I'm just trying to find that request by Charles that indicates his preference on topics. I found some by posters, but nothing from Charles himself. I'm expanding my search, just to be sure.

498 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:17:36am

#497 vxbush

oh... i see... no, its ok... *sniff* i'm grown up... I can take it... *runs crying*

*grin*

I know many people have not wanted such discussions, but I've never seeh Charles post that. (Of course, I rarely see him post)

499 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:17:43am

Of course, I could be totally wrong about Charles' preferences, but I want to be totally sure before I give up my memory as being totally junked.

:-)

500 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:19:17am

#499 vxbush

i'm loading every comment by charles in the past year. We'll get to the bottom of this.

501 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:21:25am

ooo... no more dr. z3n . . . didn't know about that.

looking over a year's worth of posts, I don't see anything about religion or christian in reference to not discussing such things.

502 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:21:39am

So the only thing left is toying with Gordon? But what if Gordon says something to drive a wedge between Christians and Jews? Goota stay on the topic of islamic politics?

503 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:24:36am

#502 Roger

just did a scan of all of Charles' comments for the past year and didn't find anything about not wanting us to discuss religious things.

*shrug* unless it was over a year ago, I don't see it.

but still... isn't toying with Gordon enough? (and it can't talk about religion... its only religion seems to be Democrat.)

504 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:25:23am

hey vxbush... did you email me? I haven't received anything, and was wondering if I should still be looking.

505 quark2  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:30:27am

@246 motorcycle mom

Would you PLEASE quit posting a link to pictures you have no authority to access?
If you're so gungho on doing this, then post the ones you've been so careful to protect from your
Ohio meetup.
There's already been crap started by our nonfavourite w@tch spot because they were inadvertently posted last week.
I really don't appreciate people being unconcerned about who they're exposing.

Charles would you delete this latest linky?

506 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:31:25am

nevermind vxbush... how did you get THAT email address?

*laughes*

507 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:36:40am

lance

Do you mean your email address, or mine?

508 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:38:52am

#507 vxbush

mine. lol.. I have a different one listed if you click on my name.

509 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:47:17am

lance

did I read wrong, or is dr.zit banned?

510 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:50:13am

#509 paxnhymn, imploded he did:-)

511 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:50:58am

Lance: you posted your web site, and that's the email address you gave at the site. If you don't want folks to email you there, don't post it. :-)

Regarding Charles' preferences, perhaps this is what I was thinking of:

Amnesty International post

Or:

Today's Schiavo post

I guess I was thinking that religion can be a very emotional topic for people, and decided that posting about religion is okay for a while but shouldn't be done forever, especially if it results in heated emotional discussions that can be used against us.

My apologies for thinking this applied to everyone; it just applies to me.

512 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:54:03am

roger

storm got me outta whack. What happened to the a*shole?

513 BenZacharia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:55:05am

#505 quark2

Would you PLEASE quit posting a link to pictures you have no authority to access?

It's a LGF post number link. NOW APPOLOGIZE!

514 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:55:19am

#511 vxbush

Oh, I don't mind emails going there.. Just didn't know you had a link to my website.

*grin*

515 vxbush  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:57:16am

Hey, you put it there! click on your football and see. Charles never fills in the football info. That's up to you.

Now, it's lunchtime in my neck of the woods, and I feel a definite need for some C.S. Lewis.

516 EW1(SG)  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 7:59:18am

BenZacharia: Look at the URL that pops up when you do a flyover on my nickname, compare it to the domain that you downloaded my pictures from, then delete the downloaded pictures. Thank you.

517 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 8:05:39am

#512 paxnhymn, you rubber neck at accidents;-) Me too. Posts preceding [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
If you have time, start at the first dr. zit post.

518 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 8:05:47am

#512 pax

well, he referred to me as the retarded kid so I don't know what happened, but he couldn't have slid far.

(the picture he links to is me from my website)

519 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 8:10:06am

#515 vxbush

well whaddya know... lol.. I never click the football, so I never think of doing it that way. *grin*

learn something new every day.

520 paxnhymn  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 8:12:27am

lance, Roger

thanks for the linkies.. Yeah, I like rubber-neckin'...it's a charachter flaw.LOL!
I still think that POS was Octo with a different nic...same nasty MO...

521 LanceKates  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 8:22:30am

#520 pax

the only advantage to him was that I could end all posts with that link I gave you, and end all statements with the words "in a way"

I'm glad he's gone, and if he's lurking here... HA HA HA HA HA... in a way.

522 BabbaZee  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 9:06:30am

#509 paxnhymn 7/12/2005 09:47AM PDT
lance
did I read wrong, or is dr.zit banned?


OH PLEASE...tell me it's true.

That would make my day.


I haven't signed on here in days and days -
Can I give out candy if it's true?

523 BabbaZee  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 9:07:58am

#199 Charles 7/9/2005 07:00PM PDT
I've had a belly full of dr.z3n. He's had a timeout, and that's enough. Bye.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[candy]

[candy]

[candy]

CHAMPAGNE!

524 abu_garcia  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 9:12:10am

Isadore

I think it is important to remember that at the time of the Crusades Europeans were a mostly illiterate superstitious people. Some of the Germanic tribes had been converted by the sword or by royal edict and taught Christianity by a poem called the Heliand which portrayed Jesus as a Germanic Thane who went about fighting people and who was murdered by the Jews.

Christianity as practiced by the mass of Europeans, especially northern Europeans, was an amalgam of nordic beliefs and a wide variety of "heresies".

War and killing was part of life for these tribal people. Europe was subjected to waves of invasions for millenia and it is silly to suppose that the survivors would be anything other than warlike and brutal.

The sentence, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" is based on the edict "Kill them all, God will know his own" by Arnold, Abbot of Citeaux, 1209, during the Albigensian Crusade (Catholics against heretics, but not to single out the Catholics).

If you argue that we should be more aware of the gory details of European/Christian history I agree, if you argue that the Jews were singled out for persecution in the midst of times of peace, enlightenment, and plenty you are just way off base.

525 BabbaZee  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 9:15:21am

declear the crudase and be unite!

526 quark2  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 9:44:54am

@513 BenZacharia

The Lgf poster that posted that link did NOT have permission from all of the photographed to have their pictures published.
That includes me.
Now you instruct me on exactly what I am to apologize for.
Otherwise any and all pictures that you have accessed without the photographers permission and mine you need to delete from your system.

527 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 9:49:32am

#525 BabbaZee! I missed you! ...and needed you!

And Thom was back some yesterday!

528 Isadore  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 9:52:12am

Summaries of a couple of very well researched books that inform my world view:

"Constantine's Sword" is a sprawling work of history, theology, and personal confession by James Carroll (the author of An American Requiem, among many others). Carroll begins his landmark project by describing contemporary Catholic remembrances of the Holocaust and the Church's intolerable legacy of hostility towards Jews. He then surveys Catholic anti-Judaism beginning with the New Testament and proceeding through the early Church, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Enlightenment, and World War II, before concluding with "A Call for Vatican III," a Church council that would make meaningful repentance for an entrenched tradition of hatred. Carroll's prescriptions for repentance, continued in a powerful epilogue, are bracingly concrete: "there is no apology for Holy Week preaching that prompted pogroms until Holy Week liturgies, sermons, and readings have been purged of the anti-Jewish slanders that sent the mobs rushing out of church... Forgiveness for the sin of anti-Semitism presumes a promise to dismantle all that makes it possible." Carroll's personal reflections as an American Catholic infuse his historical narrative, and although his reflections are sometimes unnecessarily detailed, they are admirable for the principle they express: "I find myself unable to accuse my Church of any sin that I cannot equally accuse myself of," he writes. Carroll's judgments on the Church are rightly harsh, even agonizing. And yet his vision for a future rapprochement between Christians and Jews is hopeful, in part because he personally has come to understand the deep connections between Israel and the Church: "Jesus offers me, a non-Jew, access to the biblical hope that was his birthright as a son of Israel."

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Goldhagen's gripping and shocking landmark study ["Hitler's Willing Executioners"] transforms our understanding of the Holocaust. Refuting the widespread notion that those who carried out the genocide of Jews were primarily SS men or Nazi party members, he demonstrates that the perpetrators?those who staffed and oversaw the concentration camps, slave labor camps, genocidal army units, police battalions, ghettos, death marches?were, for the most part, ordinary German men and women: merchants, civil servants, academics, farmers, students, managers, skilled and unskilled workers. Rejecting the conventional view that the killers were slavishly carrying out orders under coercion, Goldhagen, assistant professor of government at Harvard, uses hitherto untapped primary sources, including the testimonies of the perpetrators themselves, to show that they killed Jews willingly, approvingly, even zealously. Hitler's genocidal program of a "Final Solution" found ready accomplices in these ordinary Germans who, as Goldhagen persuasively argues, had absorbed a virulent, "eliminationist" anti-Semitism, prevalent as far back as the 18th century, which demonized the Jews and called for their expulsion or physical annihilation. Furthermore, his research reveals that a large proportion of the killers were told by their commanders that they could disobey orders to kill, without fear of retribution?yet they slaughtered Jews anyway. By his careful estimate, hundreds of thousands of Germans were directly involved in the mass murder, and millions more knew of the ongoing genocide. Among the 30 photographs are snapshots taken by the murderers of themselves and their victims.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

529 BabbaZee  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 9:59:54am

#527 Roger
Tell Thom he HAS to be on while I'm off!
There must be ONE cantakerous believer on at all times! ;~}
I miss you all too!
Unfortunately I will be more off than on for the next month and a half but once I'm moved in I'll peek-n-post here and there...
I will be offline now in a few minutes.
Just had to say ULULULUL:ULULULULU to the
Dr's (Dr my ass) banning!

530 SpiritOf1683  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 10:01:01am

If anything ought to cut the ground from under the feet of the apologists who said the London atrocity happened because of Iraq etc, the disclosure that four of the suicide bombers were British, and from West Yorkshire, plus arrests being made there, and we are getting news of a large find of explosives in a house in Burley, Leeds. And this will make things worse for Muslims here in Britain, because that opens them up to the accusation that they're sheltering terrorists. And Muslims are their own worst enemy. Any apology for atrocities is grudging. They make it sound as if rather than apologising and condemning atrocities, they're trying to wash their hands of them and pass the buck by saying "Its unislamic" and similar hoary chestnuts. And we are all too familiar with the hate-preachings of Sheikh Abu Hamza and Sheikh Omar Bakri, not to mention the latters boast that the black flag of Islam will fly over Downing Street. But this is feared to be the tip of the iceberg. Intelligence services seem to think up to 3,000 Al Qaeda trained potential terrorists lurk within our towns and cities. And it is proving the point, that far from our involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq, this atrocity in London happened because we have Muslims living here, and no other reason.

531 Roger  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 10:08:47am

#528 Isadore, yes. A Polish colleague of mine, whose dad was held at Auschwitz, told me that the German people as one nation were efficient in everything including genocide. Everything had to turn into something useful. There was a place they called Canada where everything was efficently recycled of the belongings of their victims.

Two books I've read recently that give insight
were The Devil's Doctor and Given Up for Dead.

532 TalkinKamel  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 12:40:14pm

#456 vxbush

Thanx!

:>)

#523 BabbaZee

What? Dr. 3zNazi is gone? For good? Hooray, hooray! I'll join you in the chapagne, and perform my Kamel dance of joy!
(Whilst waving sparklers in all four hooves!)

And thank you, Charles! That guy was nearly as bad as View From Ireland!

533 Pelayo  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:45:14pm

#528 Isadore

I was addressing the specific issue of the Crusades, and what I said was factual according to every source I have read-namely that the Crusades were organized by the Popes for the purpose of rescuing the Holy Land from Islamic rule not for the purpose of attacking Jews. Horrific and unauthorized massacres of Jews by zealots and mobs did occur especially in the First Crusade, but there were also Bishops and other Christian leaders who denounced these events and did their best to defend the Jews from these attacks.

We should be able to distinguish the objectives of a war, from unauthorized atrocities commited in the course of a war. For example at My Lai US troops massacred Vietnamese civillians without authorization, but no one sane one argue that the goal of the Vietnam war was to murder civllians.

I can't really get into an extended discussion of the entire span of Christian/Jewish relations over 2000 years. I would only make two brief points. First you refer to "Catholic anti-Judaism beginning with the New Testament..." The argument that the New Testament is itself anti-Jewish is rather problematic, since almost all its authors were ethnically Jews themselves. Moreover this would imply that to be a Christian is to be an anti-Semite-something which all the pro-Jewish Christians on this site should be sufficient to disprove.

That's not to deny of course that there have not been certain Christians anti-Semites who misread passages of the Scripture so as to justify their prejudices.

For clarification of how the Catholic Church in our time views the role of the Jews in the Bible, you may wish to read the Vatican's recent document on the Jewish people in the Sacred Scriptures.


The second thing is that clearly Nazi ideology was not motivated by Christian faith or doctrines. In fact the Nazis were deeply hostile to Christianity. The exterminationist anti-Semitism of the Nazis was motivated by the specific racial doctrines of National Socialism. I am not accusing you of comparing the two, but since you discussed Goldhagen's views of Nazism with Carroll's views on Christianity, one might get the wrong impression, so that point needed to be made.

534 Yank in the EU  Tue, Jul 12, 2005 3:57:58pm

#523 BabbaZee

I've had a belly full of dr.z3n. He's had a timeout, and that's enough. Bye.

BabbaZee, yes, that was a good one. Wish you could have been there - he got called out and embarrassed. I hope you are well.

535 Roger  Wed, Jul 13, 2005 1:16:12am

#533 Pelayo, excellent analysis! The racial doctrines of National Socialism of which you speak came directly to the Nazi party from Professor Karl Haushofer. In other words from the universities with new racial 'science' based on the 'laws of nature'.


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