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-RetweetAznar: The Way to Fight Terrorism

Sun, Jul 17, 2005 at 11:24:16 am PDT

LGF reader “Mary in LA” emailed this translation (courtesy of her sister) of an extraordinary editorial by former Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar, published in English here for the first time.

***

(TRANSLATOR’S NOTE: the following is an original English translation of an editorial by Mr. Jose Maria Aznar, former Prime Minister of Spain, as it appeared, in Italian (presumably in translation from a Spanish original), in the July 16, 2005 internet edition of Il Messaggero, a major Italian daily newspaper published in Rome. I have interpolated a few words in places where Mr. Aznar left a lot to be inferred by the reader, and have marked my interpolations with [square brackets]. A passage I myself have not perfectly understood is marked with {curly brackets}. I have not asked permission either from Mr. Aznar or from Il Messaggero to make this translation or to make it available on the internet, as I have no knowledge that such permission is required in such a case as this. My intent is simply to perform a public service by bringing Mr. Aznar’s remarks to the attention of blog-readers who have no Italian or Spanish, and to offer a piece of proof that in spite of Zappy the Pinhead and the sheep who elected him, Spain has not lost all its men.)

THE WAY TO FIGHT TERRORISM IS TO KEEP OUR GUARD UP
by Jose Maria Aznar

When faced with an act of extreme cruelty such as the one perpetrated in London on the 7th of July just past, the first thing to do is to care for the victims. Nothing can justify —- still less rationalize —- the pain and destruction that have been caused. And it is equally ridiculous to second-guess the decision recently taken in Singapore to give the 2012 Olympic games to London, or the decision to hold the G8 summit in Scotland, where it was in progress on the day of the attacks. Any pretext is good enough for Bin Laden to strike at us however he chooses —- or rather, whenever he can —- and we have, alas, more than one piece of proof. Obviously, the London attacks have recalled to my mind those that we Spaniards suffered on March 11, 2004, in Madrid: bombs exploding simultaneously in the public-transportation system, home-grown terrorists, scores of dead and hundreds of wounded —- unspeakable emotional trauma, followed by endless recrimination and theorizing. But all this notwithstanding, in spite of all the suffering and pain, I am optimistic about this conflict’s ultimate outcome. There is no alternative to victory over terrorism. I will go farther: even with the horror of London before my eyes, I sincerely believe that we are already winning the war against the followers of Bin Laden.

To begin with, if our objective is total victory over terrorism, we must first understand what sort of people we have to deal with. The adversary who stands before us is an enemy who has declared war on us: very simply, he has declared it and he has acted on his declaration. Just like Adolph Hitler in his day, Bin Laden has written and repeated very clearly what his objectives are and what his vision is for the world: a theocracy capable of bringing about the restoration of the Caliphate and imposing Koranic law from Al-Andalus (the name the Arabs gave to the Iberian Peninsula in the long period of their dominance), all the way to the Philippine Islands. Bin Laden hates everything that is Western, not only for historical reasons but also for what he sees in the West: a civilization which promotes prosperity over poverty and equality over injustice; a civilization which, in the place of intolerance, advances the ideals of religious pluralism and the separation of Church and State. He hates us, in essence, because of what we are. It is irrelevant, therefore, to connect the London bombings with any other concrete action or event. Islamic terror operates on a very different set of motivations in determining when and how it will strike. Whether we like it or not, the fact is that Al Qaeda is at war with us. And in time of war, one must necessarily change one’s mindset.

There are two main points to come out of the London bombings: the first is that although we are aware that we are at war, the vulnerability of all our Western societies remains extremely high, since they are, by nature, open societies. Stopping a suicide-bomber is practically an impossible task if it is attempted at the last minute — the usual time-frame in which police operations are carried out. Islamic terror is not exclusively a police problem: it reaches into areas well beyond the realm of policing on account of its roots, its resources, its strategies and its objectives. For this reason, it is entirely useless to think that it can be eliminated by the forces of civil order alone. On the contrary, the events of London, like those of Madrid and of New York before them, underscore the necessity of taking action long before the terrorists have decided on blowing themselves up and gotten themselves ready to do so. Moreover, action of this kind must be carried out in places thousands of miles from where we live. Terror knows no frontiers, so the fight against the terrorists must be carried out on a global scale and in a preventive manner. The second point may appear paradoxical, though it is, in fact, not so. The London attacks give the impression that Islamic terror is weaker today than it was, say, one year ago (just to name a date). It is true that the terrorists succeeded in striking a city which had begun to protect itself as of several months ago, knowing that it was one of the fundamentalists’ primary targets. It is also true that although other attacks had been foiled in the past, this time no one was able to stop the terrorists, a fact that demonstrates that passive defense is plainly inadequate as protection. That said, it must be recognized that the London attacks have lost the element of strategic surprise so evident on that infamous Eleventh of September, [though] it is highly possible that they may prove just as deadly as those of the Eleventh of March. This is not because the terrorists aren’t interested in topping their previous accomplishments. If Bin Laden hopes to go on being seen as the supreme role-model for his coreligionists, he must be capable of inflicting ever-heavier physical and moral damage upon us. This is the logic that was born out of the events of September 11. Since that time, he has scored tactical victories —- the March 11 bombings and the change of government in Spain —- but he is losing the war. Today he does not have the capacity to mount another September 11, neither in terms of strategic surprise nor, most likely, in terms of physical destruction. And there is another thing to be stated very clearly: if Al Qaeda, in spite of recent events, still is weaker today than it was in the past, this fact is due to the aggressive action and constant pressure applied by the United States with the cooperation of the international coalition in places as remote as Afghanistan, the Philippines, Mauritania, and Iraq. Yes, Iraq. The activities of intelligence agents, soldiers, and special forces have substantially reduced the ability of Bin Laden’s men to plan and carry out new attacks. Without a doubt, Al Qaeda is weaker today because it has not left us waiting for a new strike. [The war in] Iraq [as a justification for the London attacks] is a pretext that has nothing to do with the agenda of Al Qaeda, except for the fact that the arrival of democracy in that land must constitute a heavy blow to the [Al Qaeda] organization. For this reason, it is absolutely imperative that the coalition forces bring the work they have begun to a successful conclusion. To leave Iraq before this occurs would be to commit an exceedingly grave strategic error.

The truly worrying aspect of the London strike, something it has in common with Madrid, is the use for these terrorist attacks of agents already in place within our societies. While it is evident that not all Muslims living among us are terrorists, nevertheless, to pursue an immigration policy that amounts to a wide-open door in its practical effect is, in light of very recent events, irresponsible. Terrorism succeeds when it understands that through its violent acts it has broken the will of individual citizens. I have already stated that we are at war with Bin Laden, and anyone who refuses to see it, preferring to negotiate and make pacts with terror, does nothing else but make more terror a certainty. To surrender without a fight can only cause the deaths of more victims, because terrorism gives no quarter. Islamic terrorism does not want a dialogue of civilizations, because its only goal is to impose its own on ours. Let’s not forget it.

Jose Maria Aznar
translated from the Italian in Il Messaggero (online) of 16 July 2005.

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110 comments

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1 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:27:04am

Unfortunately, the terrorists succeedded in removing him from office.

2 Americain  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:29:18am
Terrorism succeeds when it understands that through its violent acts it has broken the will of individual citizens.

Something your successor sadly does not understand.

Well said Mr. Anzar.

3 Americain  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:31:42am
There is no alternative to victory over terrorism. I will go farther: even with the horror of London before my eyes, I sincerely believe that we are already winning the war against the followers of Bin Laden.

Demonrats and MSM, are you listening?

4 acwgusa  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:34:05am

Voters are their own worst enemy.

5 jwm  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:34:34am

Half measures will avail us nothing. We cannot have total victory without total war.
JWM

6 Americain  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:34:53am
On the contrary, the events of London, like those of Madrid and of New York before them, underscore the necessity of taking action long before the terrorists have decided on blowing themselves up and gotten themselves ready to do so. Moreover, action of this kind must be carried out in places thousands of miles from where we live. Terror knows no frontiers, so the fight against the terrorists must be carried out on a global scale and in a preventive manner.

A key element of the Bush doctrine.

7 Dianna  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:35:54am

I bet the Spanish really wish they hadn't elected Zapatero.

8 tom321  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:37:48am

As usual, Aznar is right on.

9 foreign devil  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:38:23am

An outstanding job by Mary in LA's sister and an outstanding article and very clear thinking by the former Spanish Prime Minister, Jose Maria Aznar. Would that they were all as clued in as this man.

10 Ziggy'sGrammy  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:39:13am

Until people come to the realization that it is not "all about Palestine", this will never stop.

Although, I don't understand how, when the Islamofacists specifically say, "we hate the West and want to kill all of you", the bozo's in the MSM and everywhere else still blame the Jews.

For pity's sake, isn't enough, enough? What happened to the men in this world? Where are the feminists? Do they really think that given a choice, the muslim women would choose to live in constant degradation?

In my recollection, it only took minutes before they found a way to blame Blair and Bush. Who will they blame in 2008 when W is no longer POTUS? They certainly won't blame their darling Shillary.

11 Anthony (Los Angeles)  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:39:32am

Foolish, foolish Spain for dumping so clear-sighted a leader.

12 Gagdad Bob  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:39:49am

Aznar's is so free of appeasement and grovelling, he should have his European citizenship revoked.

13 zombie  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:39:57am

Yet another scoop for LGF. But nooo, says GoogleNews; that's not good enough for us. We want to include 256 different lunatic socialist and conspiracy-theory and Nazi Web sites in our index, but LGF just doesn't qualify. Exclusive scoops can't help you.

14 Americain  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:40:42am
The activities of intelligence agents, soldiers, and special forces have substantially reduced the ability of Bin Laden’s men to plan and carry out new attacks. Without a doubt, Al Qaeda is weaker today because it has not left us waiting for a new strike. [The war in] Iraq [as a justification for the London attacks] is a pretext that has nothing to do with the agenda of Al Qaeda, except for the fact that the arrival of democracy in that land must constitute a heavy blow to the [Al Qaeda] organization. For this reason, it is absolutely imperative that the coalition forces bring the work they have begun to a successful conclusion. To leave Iraq before this occurs would be to commit an exceedingly grave strategic error.

I concur.

BTW, Re-electing Democrats would be committing an exceedingly grave strategic error in the WoT also.

15 TimK  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:40:56am

Great article, thank you for posting it.
Even though this man lost the election, the message of what Bin Ladin and his ilk want is going to get out there.
The rest of Europe is slowly getting a clue, so will the Spainards, as long as articles like this keep on being written.

On the otherhand,I know plenty of western women want to be wearing a burka,be kept out out the workforce and not be allowed to drive.

16 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:42:12am

Aznar is a true leader and friend of the US.

Thanks to Spain's punks, Spain got hijacked by a uber-socialist appeaser. ugh.

Pity.

17 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:42:43am

#10 Ziggy'sGrammy

Where are the feminists?

They sold their souls when they decided to support Ted Kennedy after Chappaquidik. They aren't about women anymore, haven't been for decades.

18 Former CNN Watcher  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:43:07am

I thought the BBC said that there was no terrorist threat?!?

They had a whole big-hype 3 part documentary on it in January that won a heap of awards:
[Link: noonshadow.blogspot.com...]

19 westman  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:44:44am

Bravo! An outstanding editorial!

What a shame that the Spanish voted him out of office.

Thank you Charles and Mary in LA.

20 Irene NYC  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:46:19am

#15 TimK

Yo Tim!

On the otherhand,I know plenty of western women want to be wearing a burka,be kept out out the workforce and not be allowed to drive.


And I know plenty of Western men who want the clock to go back a couple of centuries too. We tend to call them nuts.

21 Irene NYC  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:47:36am

#19 Westman

May I second your 3 cheers!

22 Melvin Frohike  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:52:03am

U.K. Spectator has a good article by Douglas Davis he interviews Jose María Aznar.
No Surrender

Excerpt:

Still, he dares hope that the possible election of Atlanticists in Berlin (Angela Merkel) and in Paris (Nicolas Sarkozy) will set Europe on a pro-American, reforming trajectory which respects the integrity of its nation states, abandons the ‘social model’, embraces economic reform, abides by the stability pact, halts the headlong drive towards further expansion and is less indulgent of terrorism.

Aznar reserves a special contempt for Jacques Chirac’s ambition to transform Europe into a ‘counterweight’ to America. Such a European model — appeasing, pacifist, economically shackled, socially stunted, lacking self-confidence and separated from the United States — represents everything that Aznar abhors. ‘I disagree with leaders like Chirac,’ he says. ‘His ideas are a very big mistake for Europe.

‘He and Schröder seek a world with many centres of power. They think it is indispensable for Europe to shape her institutions, her architecture and her policy in opposition to the US. This is an old question with the French. Chirac is obsessed with the Americans. It’s ideological, a question of power. He cannot support a situation where America is so powerful.’

Our meeting is intended to focus on the transatlantic dysfunction, but it is impossible to avoid issues associated with that (7 July) morning’s events. Like immigration. Aznar is in no doubt that multiculturalism in Europe is ‘finished, dead’. Whatever their cultural, ethnic or religious complexion, all immigrants must be prepared to salute the national flag and sing the national anthem. As it is, he is concerned about the ‘enormous mass of immigrants’ in Europe who zealously defend their own values but care little about those of Europe.

The problem, he says, is compounded by Europeans who ‘do not know and do not defend our own values’. These values, he says, leaving no room for doubt or interpretation, are family-centred Christian values. ‘For me, it is impossible to explain Europe without explaining Christian values.’

Yes, he says, Europe should open its doors to immigrants, based on a consensual, coherent policy. But respect for ‘the common values in our society should not exceed the special rights demanded by immigrant communities ...It’s not possible to coexist in a society with different forms of civilisation, with different rights and responsibilities.’

Nor does he have any time for the notion of an ‘alliance of civilisations’, the European code for an accommodation with Islam. ‘This is an enormous nonsense. Look, I had an excellent dialogue with Mohammed Khatami [the former president of Iran]. It’s one thing to have a dialogue between civilisations, but an alliance of civilisations ...that’s stupid.

‘For us, the most important alliance should be the Atlantic alliance. That is the guarantee of our liberty and freedom, democracy and prosperity. That is the true alliance.’ It is Aznar’s mission, his driving passion, to promote a new Atlantic pact that will renew the Atlantic alliance and create ‘a greater economic area’ between Europe and America. Security and stability in Europe, he says, are only possible in the context of close ties, at all levels, with the United States.

end excerpt

23 Jakester  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:55:26am

Aznar is right and I applaud him. But he also dithered after 3/11, first trying to blame it on the Vasque separatists. He chose to bring his country into the Iraq war with negative public support and did little to promote his action. To fight this war against Islamic terror requires that leaders in power to speak out and rally support then implement measures to support that.

24 ronaldusmagnus  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:56:43am

Thank you Mary in LA (and Charles)

Aznar, as usual, knows of what he speaks.

No treaties.
No deals.
No negotiations.

The unsaid message from him is simply this, kill them before they kill us.

25 EIDE_Interface  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:05:15am

I wonder though, why doesn't he mention terrorism applied against Israel? Do we Jews not bleed as much as gentiles?

26 Mary in LA  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:10:44am

Dear Charles and fellow Lizards,
I'm delighted to see Aznar's editorial at the top of this thread. Thank you, Charles!

My sister is equally delighted -- on seeing this, she said, "It's so nice to be able to do something that matters a damn!" (Well, she is an academic... ;-) ) And so here she is, speaking for herself:

"As the translator of the above piece by Mr. Aznar, I'd like to thank the management of LGF for giving it front-page billing.

"Since I also notice that my curly brackets somehow got lost from the text, I think I should clarify that the one phrase I didn't think I understood perfectly is a line from the third paragraph, the phrase "because it has not left us waiting" in the sentence "Without a doubt, Al Qaeda is weaker today because it has not left us waiting for a new strike."

"The Italian text of the editorial reads "Senza dubbio, Al Qaeda è oggi più debole perché non ci ha lasciato in attesa di un nuovo attacco." While my English translation is correct in the literal sense, what I believe Mr. Aznar must have meant is that the fact that the London attacks were, shall we say, Madrid-level rather than New York-level does not suggest that a second 9/11 is in the offing."

We both hope that Mr. Aznar may be returned to power someday. (So far as I know, prime ministers don't have term limits.)

Thank you again, Charles! (I think you may have helped create a pajama-professor...)

Mary in LA

27 dchamil  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:11:05am

It's too bad we can't seize the parents of terrorists who have blown themselves to bloody bits and cut their heads off on the spot. But they're innocents , you exclaim. Well, so were the subway commuters. I don't fear the anti-Muslim backlash of which the MSM claim to be so frightened. I'm afraid there won't be backlash enough.

28 Merovign  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:12:19am

The more I know of the situation the more obvious the conclusion, in light of history.

But so many will not see and do not wish to hear.

I wish I knew what to do about it. I guess the only thing to do now is to be a reminder to those who will hear but do not know.

It's sad, but it is what it is.

29 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:17:16am

A big thank you to Charles, Mary, & all involved. Good work! Now, off to spread the link far and wide.

30 hornet  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:18:33am

Thank you Charles and Mary. This article will be top discussion paper on BBC, UK Guardian, CNN, NYTimes, CBC, and Toronto Star tomorrow, or at least next week, or next month or never. Fantastic article on the reality of terrorism and Bin Lad. Required reading for nodrog and friends.

31 freedomplow  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:21:00am

Well said. Does the LLL want to live in a world where their children could get blown up at any moment? Maybe they should reconsider and get back in the fight. Quit playing politics with the WOT!

32 Kohenan The Barbarian  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:33:44am

Well said and vital to fight terror--however by a man with zero political power from an EU member with zero credibility that totally capitulated to terror--a country that once had the conviction and perseverance to eradicate Muslim domination-- after 800 years of subjugation and repression of Christianity -- then in 1492 combines victory with the brutal eviction,forced conversion or death for all Jews-- persecuting them and denied them justice and pleurality in their monolithic Christian Catholic Society--and for hundreds of years thereafter-- Jews faired better under the protection of the Moors than any Pope--and today the same Spain(EU) makes no connection between the killing of Jews in Israel by suicide bombing nurtured by the Palestinian incitement, support ,financing, and wholesale breeding of similar miscreants that accomplished the Madrid and London butchery!

33 treblanews  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:35:18am

I agree with some of Jose Maria Aznar comments. But it seems he and most LGFers just assume, and some times correctly, what OBL wants.

The URL below will take you to >>>
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

You can make the sweeping claims that OBL hates our freedom and democracy but most of all it appears he hates what he sees as our hypocrisy.

[Link: www.informationclearinghouse.info...]

34 Bob24  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:38:29am

#7 Diana

I bet the Spanish really wish they hadn't elected Zapatero.

I think you overestimate them. Spain still suffers from a huge post-Franco hangover, which has led to public opinion being staunchly pacifist and anti-American. The movie "Barcelona" captures this pretty well. Similar attitudes also exist in Greece.

#23 Jakester

Aznar did screw up by initially trying to blame the ETA. But the fact that he did it says a lot about Spanish public opinion. Can you imagine an American president finding it politically expedient not to blame Al-Qaeda in a similar situation?

35 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:41:40am

#33

We really need someone who defends bin laden the pig on this blog.

Very original position.

That document is just a bunch of crap.
And I am confident that we will be able to kill bin laden the pig and all the murderers who obey his demented orders.


Never forgive, never forget !

36 Page  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:41:56am

Slightly OT:

It occurs to me that of the 5 cities that were finalists for the 2012 Olympics, 4 of them have been targeted by Muslim terrorists since Sept. 10, 2001. Maybe the Parisian ought to watch their backs, they may be next...? *shrug*

37 Montaigne's Cat  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:46:55am

Message to other Blogs and readers of other Blogs:

Since LGF is the only source of this on the web,
and since LGF exclusives are not spread by Google News:

Other Blogs and Websites which read this could link to this article at LGF.
Readers of other Blogs could post links to this in their comments sections when appropriate and not previously done.

38 abu_garcia  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:01:38am

#33 treblanews

You can make the sweeping claims that OBL hates our freedom and democracy but most of all it appears he hates what he sees as our hypocrisy.

It "appears" to me that he is fighting to impose the beautiful gifts of the Caliphate on the world. Megalomaniacs have long been able to couch their appetites for power in terms of relieving "oppression". Whats new.

Only someone totally, psychotically, divorced from reality could imagine that he will end the "injustice" of the world in this fashion. That probably applies to you as well as Bin Laden

39 piniella  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:05:43am

Study cites seeds of terror in Iraq
War radicalized most, probes find

By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | July 17, 2005
[Link: www.boston.com...]
WASHINGTON -- New investigations by the Saudi Arabian government and an Israeli think tank -- both of which painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States -- have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself.
However, interrogations of nearly 300 Saudis captured while trying to sneak into Iraq and case studies of more than three dozen others who blew themselves up in suicide attacks show that most were heeding the calls from clerics and activists to drive infidels out of Arab land, according to a study by Saudi investigator Nawaf Obaid, a US-trained analyst who was commissioned by the Saudi government and given access to Saudi officials and intelligence.
A separate Israeli analysis of 154 foreign fighters compiled by a leading terrorism researcher found that despite the presence of some senior Al Qaeda operatives who are organizing the volunteers, ''the vast majority of [non-Iraqi] Arabs killed in Iraq have never taken part in any terrorist activity prior to their arrival in Iraq."
Obaid said in an interview from London that his Saudi study found that ''the largest group is young kids who saw the images [of the war] on TV and are reading the stuff on the Internet. Or they see the name of a cousin on the list or a guy who belongs to their tribe, and they feel a responsibility to go."
''The vast majority of them had nothing to do with Al Qaeda before Sept. 11th and have nothing to do with Al Qaeda today," said Reuven Paz, author of the Israeli study. ''I am not sure the American public is really aware of the enormous influence of the war in Iraq, not just on Islamists but the entire Arab world."
One indication that a heightened degree of Arab solidarity is a leading factor is that they are almost entirely Arabs and not Muslims from other countries, such as those who volunteered to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya. Another motivation, the studies and analysts contend, is the centuries-old struggle between the Sunni and Shia branches of Islam. All the foreign fighters are Sunnis, according to the analyses, and many of their targets are Iraq's majority Shia Muslims, who have gained political power in Baghdad for the first time in hundreds of years.
Ali Alyami, director of the Center for Democracy and Human Rights in Saudi Arabia, said he believes the deep-seated Sunni-Shia rift among the world's 1.2 billion Muslims -- about 1 billion of them Sunni -- best explains the foreign-fighter phenomenon. He noted in an interview that US policy makers do not seem to grasp the historic conflicts within Islam that are playing out in the war in Iraq.

40 reaganfan  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:06:51am

A remarkable piece by Anzar--it displays intelligence, verve, courage.

41 CanadianBacon  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:13:23am

#33 treblanews

Are you new?

The hypocrisy OBL speaks of is a construct that begins with the denial of history and ends with distortion of fact. His whole letter is a justification of racial, religious hatred that can be summed up quite simply: the world has grown beyond the "golden age" of Islam, and will never go back, but backwards is the way the Islamists would have us go, no matter the cost in human dignity and life.

OBL and his ilk fear and loath us, and will not stop their campaign until eradicated: their game, their rules.

42 treblanews  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:16:14am

#35 Poitiers-Lepanto

We really need someone who defends bin laden the pig on this blog.
So linking to OBL's statement is defending him?

That document is just a bunch of crap.
You are right. I just made it up.

And I am confident that we will be able to kill bin laden the pig and all the murderers who obey his demented orders.
Change a few words and this sounds just like OBL.
And I am confident that we will be able to kill chimpy, the pig, and all the murderers who obey his demented orders.

Never forgive, never forget !
Again, sounds like OBL

43 jwm  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:18:53am

The only thing that will draw a fly off of a turd is the smell of fresh meat. And now we get two of the more obnoxious flies buzzing LGF with their moral relativism and a selection of cherry picked links. Anyone got a can of Raid?
JWM

44 Gruen  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:20:11am

A brilliant piece by Aznar. Either we in the west take heed of this and act or we really are fucked.

45 Li'l Mamzer  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:20:20am

The experience of Spain and the fall of Aznar's government is an object lesson in the leverage Islamic terror has over free societies by exploiting the gulibilities of a population in denial and the tacit aid from the fifth column of Arabs and Muslims within those societies.

CAIR, Arab American Institute, Zogby's AAADC, MAS, and the rest of the Jihadi-apologists should be rounded and up and deported. Those who are citizens should be tried under sedition laws.

46 Dead Sea Squirrel  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:22:56am

Oboy, Pinecone and Treblenka have reopened their kool-aid stands. Anyone thirsty?

47 treblanews  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:25:49am

#38 abu_garcia

It "appears" to me that he is fighting to impose the beautiful gifts of the Caliphate on the world.
Correct. I am against this.

Megalomaniacs have long been able to couch their appetites for power in terms of relieving "oppression". Whats new.
Just like preznit chimpy relieving oppressed Iraqis of SH.

Only someone totally, psychotically, divorced from reality could imagine that he will end the "injustice" of the world in this fashion.

48 Li'l Mamzer  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:31:18am

#47 trelanews

Just like preznit chimpy relieving oppressed Iraqis of SH.

You mean Iraqis WEREN'T opressed by Saddam Hussein?

So you're with Michael Moore on this one, despite mountains of evidence that the Baathist regime of Saddam Hussein was one of the most brutal in the history of mankind.

Great. You can stop digging now. You've hit the bottom.

49 Kantana  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:32:01am

#42 treblanews
Nobody here sympathises or sounds like Bin Laden but you.

50 quark2  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:35:56am

@47 treblanews

Just like preznit chimpy relieving oppressed Iraqis of SH.

Regardless of where you stand about politics, every time you despense your tasteless rhetoric
about the President of The United States just shows you have no regard for the highest office of this country.
He respresents All of the citizens of this country including you while he is in office.
Your crassness grows wearisome.

51 abu_garcia  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:44:49am

#47 treblanews

Just like preznit chimpy relieving oppressed Iraqis of SH.

If you go back and read my posts for the last few years you will occasionally see that I have not been that enamoured of the invasion of Iraq. However, there is a vast difference between questioning a strategy and the hubris needed to declare oneself possessed of the clarity of vision to oppose "preznit chimpy" and his "appetites for power" in light of the history of the region and his responsibilities to the nation.

You argue like a poorly adjusted teenager of limited intelligence with a comic book understanding of the world.

I'm going fishing for a few days so you may entertain yourself elsewhere.

52 Bob's Kid  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:45:25am

Excellent!

53 treblanews  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:50:57am

#41 CanadianBacon

The hypocrisy OBL speaks of is a construct that begins with the denial of history and ends with distortion of fact.
I can say the same about posters to this blog. Those that assume it’s only about hating our freedoms and democracy without truly knowing what OBL thinks. That’s the reason for the link. Know your enemy, don’t assume.

the world has grown beyond the "golden age" of Islam, and will never go back, but backwards is the way the Islamists would have us go
I don’t want to go backwards like OBL. I want a better understanding of the situation then jingoistic slogans such as “they hate our freedoms”.

OBL and his ilk fear and loath us,
Loath yes, but fear? Come on.
and will not stop their campaign until eradicated: their game, their rules.
If we play by their rules we become just like them.

54 nar9350  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:51:01am

It's Time to Stick It to the Enemy in the GWOT!

HT to Charles - Great post -

Keep spreading these messages the LL and the MSM can't or won't!

The American people and the free world need to hear these messages. See this read about the critical need re the Iranian jounalist putting his life on the line to attrack attention to the Iranian's people's struggle for freedom.

This how we will destroy the enemy and wipe its ideology of hate and evil from the face of the earth. The sooner this war is wo,n the less lives will be lost .

Lizaroids - I've linked back thru several threads with this message. Some are here at LGF sorry for being a little repititious.

The answer and solution to Islamfascism and suicidal bombers may be found in these links as a consensus is beginning to gel in the Blogos

Lizaroids - The Blogos now has the power to bring these messages directly to the people without blocking or filtering by the MSM. Please share with all of your friends and anyone who will listen. You are the troops in CyberSpace that will win this war.

This war will not be won on the ground as it is a war of ideas, culture, religion, and ideology. The message we need to bring is the ideology of Islamofascism is doomed to failure just like Nazism, Communism, and Fascism that have been discarded into history's dustbin.

The key failure of these totalitarian, repressive, and evil ideologies is that they do not recognize the universal truth of the free will of men and WOMEN!

How about an Oprah hookup to bypass the MSM with the atrocities these male dominated Islamofascist regimes comment on women like this poor Iranian women!

Modern Day Stoning and Hanging and Mullahs hang CHILDREN too!

Sorry if I'm a touch passionate here but where the @#$% are the feminists groups who aren't raising hell and bringing this to the attention of the women of the world!

***

POST AT WIZBANG

Jay,

Keuters is just symptomic of the larger MSM "rooting" for the enemy and trying very hard for the West to loose the GWOT. If they get their wish I would protect my head at all costs. You never know when you might loose it.

The LL and the MSM have lost it and are off on a crying jag on being with the ilk of the apologists. They are a big "turd" stuck in the toilet blocking and filtering info/new to the American people that is critical to hear or read.

See this post I've linked back from several sites. The last being from Red Hot Cuppa:

Red Link

55 Havoc  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:56:16am

#39 Pinella

Do you have any experience with "Tribal warfare" in the inner cities of the Western Nations or places as far off as Papua New Guinea, or Ecuador ?

This is somekind of epiphany for You?

Do you have any positive suggestion for your distirict's elected representatives or ...
... do you just love to seeth and complain
?

56 treblanews  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 12:03:00pm

#48 Li'l Mamzer

Another LGFer with comprehension problems. Boy is that rampant here.

You mean Iraqis WEREN'T opressed by Saddam Hussein?

Where did I say or imply that Iraqis weren't oppressed?

You assume to much. Most here do. That's why the link. So you can stop assuming what OBL thinks and actually read what he said.

But this is a losing battle with that comprehension problem here.

57 Dead Sea Squirrel  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 12:04:52pm

Treblenka:

If we play by their rules we become just like them

What an ass you are.

When someone goes to war with you, you better go to war with them. The alternative is to curl up and die. Oops, but that's what you libs (with your barely-disguised cultural death wish) want.

Go away and let the adults handle this.

58 treblanews  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 12:09:37pm

#50 quark2

I just got done burning a flag after reading your post.

59 Kantana  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 12:11:12pm

#54 nar9350 WOW That's an amazing video in that link you've posted about the sniper.
Not because i like shocking videos at all.
But because one of the attackers in the video mutters something in English like "I know. " before the shot.
After the shot one of the attackers seems to be speaking in Dutch. :/ !
It sounds like he's asking a question in Dutch?
"Hebben we'm" ?
Which means: "Did we got him ?"

"Hebben we 'm geraakt/gehad ?"
Which means: "Did we hit him ?"

Another attacker answers after the second question: "ja."
Which means: "Yes."

Atleast it sounds exactly like Dutch.?!?
Anybody can confirm this ?
I don't know if this is an official, unedited video or not and i don't know anything about arabic languages so i might as well be hearing ghosts.

60 Havoc  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 12:15:40pm

Zombie:

So true so true.

Great work again Charles -- on your day of rest.

61 jwm  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 12:24:38pm

#55 Havoc:
You hit the nail on the head. These two are like a couple of yappy little dogs nipping at the postman's ankle. They are whiney babies with their diapers full. Their comprehsnsion of events does not extend past their immediate discomfort. It all boils down to a simple paradigm: war bad, peace good. Bush in war, Bush bad We want peace, we good. And let's not for get to condemn ossama so we don't seem unreasonable.
Like all leftoids they have no plan for a global war against a global enemy. They have no alternative to the war. No answer to global jihad. No better idea. Except maybe to declare peace or something, and hope that Evil will see how nice we are and leave us alone. All they can do is nitpick, naysay, fault-find, and criticize.
JWM

62 quark2  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 12:33:38pm
I just got done burning a flag after reading your post.

Posted by treblinka treblanews.

I guess I'm supposed weep and tear out my hair in dispair and self defeat. But instead I'm going to just think to myself what a poor poor
example of a small minded human this poster is, who thinks burning flags is the finale in retorts.

/ new rope new rope new rope
63 Pelayo  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 12:41:52pm

Aznar is a man of honor, intelligence and conviction. He is one of the few European leaders of the past decade with moral clarity.

It is a great sadness that the Spaniards are today under one of the worst governments in its history. Zapatero effectively surrendered to al-Qaeda terrorism, promotes regional nationalism, and has set about systematically undermining the Catholic religious and moral values that have been at the core of Spain's culture from the days of the Reconquista.

64 Orx  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 1:41:00pm
You assume to much. Most here do. That's why the link. So you can stop assuming what OBL thinks and actually read what he said.


Are you assuming that what OBL says is really what he thinks, and not what he wants us to believe he thinks?

Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with the term taqiya.

Orx

65 nar9350  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 1:44:50pm

#59 Kantana

Dutch is similar in origin to German. My German is very rusty but auf Deustch:

Haben Wir ihm?

I'm sure you're close on the second part I would have to look it up.

Here's something I've just added to my comment above that may be of interest to all:

Where the @#$% are the feminists groups who aren't raising hell . . . ?

[...]

Have we lost all meaning in our vocabulary to describe this barbaric, horrorific, sadistic, and misogynic torture of women that these asshats carryout in the name of a "religion" of peace.

This is evil incarnate! There is no defense or excuse. The line must be drawn in the sand.

There can be no reasoning or appeasement for those who would carry out these vile acts in modern society. They must be destroyed before the infect our culture.

66 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 1:55:06pm

This is a fine article, yet I wish it did not keep the real point hidden between the lines; namely that the entire religion of islam must go, and what would accomplish that, and when will we free people seriously begin organizing to get rid of it?

Aznar talks of Bin Laden's men, and of Al Qaeda, and that "we are at war with Bin Laden", but he doesn't say that one left over copy of the koran could re-ignite the whole nightmare, even were Bin Laden killed or captured.

This is a terrrible task, and the alternative is terror and slavery forever.

But Aznar's words are at least starting to state the real magnitude of it.

67 Havoc  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:01:24pm

#66 Ojoe

Aznar may come back -- it was a close election

68 Li'l Mamzer  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:03:11pm

#56 treblanews

#48 Li'l Mamzer

Another LGFer with comprehension problems. Boy is that rampant here.

You mean Iraqis WEREN'T opressed by Saddam Hussein?

Where did I say or imply that Iraqis weren't oppressed?

No comprehension problems here, Achmed.

In post #47, you wrote, in the context of deriding Bimn Laden's concept that people in the West are "oppressed":

Just like preznit chimpy relieving oppressed Iraqis of SH.

Now, it's entirely reasonable to infer from your derisive and direct likening of Bush's policy in Iraq with Bin Laden's mega-terrorism, that Iraqis under Saddam Hussein were NOT oppressed.

So which is it?
Were they or were they not oppressed under Saddam Hussein?

If they were, and you'd have to be a monster of an idiot to argue they weren't, your dull riposte is baseless,stupid, and incoherent, all at the same time.

Oh, and the chimpy put-down is SOOO trite.

69 TotallySirius  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:11:49pm

Why do people like Aznar keep calling the terrorists "home grown"?

Those guys may have been born in England but they were about as British as Kim Jong Il.

They need to be called for what they are:Islamic terrorists.

70 piniella  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:23:31pm

#46 dead - "Oboy, Pinecone and Treblenka have reopened their kool-aid stands. Anyone thirsty? "

The Israeli report is kool-aid?

71 piniella  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:26:32pm

#55 havoc - "Do you have any positive suggestion for your distirict's elected representatives or .."

Yes I do. To restore our moral authority, we need to impeach and convict Bush of high crimes and misdemeanors. Then, send him to trial at The Hague for war crimes.

Hopefully, he will be swinging from the gallows.

72 Ojoe  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:32:21pm

71: WTF? We have more moral authority than anyone else, and G.W. Bush is a far better man than I am. He has a terribly hard job to do, a job fraught with moral dangers, and laden with a responsibility to the innocent that I cannot even begin to comprehend. I think he's doing O.K.

And anyway, he needs your prayers, not your condemnation.

IMHO.

73 Sarah D.  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:35:47pm

Piniella,

You are a hoot! People actually pay for that kind of comedy!

LOL!

74 The Ganjahedeen  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:43:30pm

It would be kind of hard for anyone to arrest President Bush with the gun-owning sector of the American population protecting him.That's one helluvalot of bullets.

75 Li'l Mamzer  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:45:52pm

#74 The Ganjahadeen

It would be kind of hard for anyone to arrest President Bush with the gun-owning sector of the American population protecting him.That's one helluvalot of bullets.

Maybe we should encourage people to try. The gene pool in this country would be significantly improved when those bullets you speak of score hits.

76 jwm  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 2:50:38pm

Pinhead troll rating: down 17 points.

Current status:
Numerical score: 36.5
Evaluation: broad farce

Thank you for annoying LGF


JWM

77 Malcor  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 3:16:12pm

Um... What is this crap about 'moral authority', anyway? I find it amusing that moral relativists would claim such a thing exists at all.

78 piniella  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 3:39:34pm

#77 malcon - "I find it amusing that moral relativists would claim such a thing exists at all. "

I find it amusing that you babble about things you know nothing about.

79 Aladin Sane  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 3:43:50pm

78 piniella

Hey piney! What's up?

80 Malcor  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 3:51:09pm

"I find it amusing that you babble about things you know nothing about."

Are you usually such a hypocrite, Piniella? Can't say as I've seen many of your comments, but judging from the way a majority of people here tend to ignore you, I'm inclined to believe you are this rude... or ignorant... as a matter of course. Thanks for the rational discourse.

Please, explain to us your concept of 'moral authority', and why it (as in, both your interpretation, and the concept itself) is A) Meaningful and B) Desireable.

81 nar9350  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 3:56:31pm

LIZARDOIDS TO WAR!

RED ALERT - RED ALERT - RED ALERT

Mr. Data prepare to go to warp arm main phaser banks!

ENGAGE!

***

Lizardoid we need to harness the energy of the Blogos to strike the enemy at it's very heart THE MAD MULLAHS OF IRAN for the world's very first digital revolution.

This is the fastest way of building critical mass to generate a self-sustaining reaction in the Blogos. We can't wait for the LL and the MSM to wake up from their stupor. They're a large "turd" in the toilet blocking and filtering information critical to the American people. FIRE !

We have very little time left to take advantage of a strategic opportunity staring us in the face. The fall of the Iranian regime will deliver a crushing if not fatal blow to the enemy in the GWOT.

The Mad Mullahs of Iran will melt in the intense light of the free world just like the Wicked Witch of the East did in the Wizard of OZ.

You have the power within your fingers to crush this enemy and wipe this ideology of hate and evil from the face of this earth.

You just need a sense of purpose and mission. It's time to man up [ok woman to], suck it up, and win this war.

What we lack is imagination, creativity, innovation, leadership, passion and confidence in what we stand for and believe. We are all casting about analyzing what others are doing and waiting for others or the government to take action.

LIZAROIDS - We must lead the others into battle.

Go to Dr. Zin's site. Read about the very brave Iranian journalist (Yes real and not a wannabe of the Rove Affair) near death in an Iranian prison trying to garner the world's attention to the struggle of the Iranian people for freedom.

www.regimechangeiran.com

We can bring this message to the world.

It should be apparent by now that WE THE PEOPLE are those others. If our government WE THE PEOPLE empower to govern is being led astray by political indecisiveness, fear of repercussion from political correctness, fear of making mistakes, then it is -

WE THE PEOPLE that must move into fill the gap to save this Country. The Country was fought for and won by a few determined patriots against great odds in 1776. This does not spring from any nationalistic/colonial ambition but as true patriotism to defend this great Country from an enemy that would destroy us.

(See the new book 1776 by the Pulitzer Prize winning author - [Link: neturn.sinacity.com...] )

I would recommend everyone spend a little time reading Victor Davis Hanson too. We must learn from our history or we are destined to repeat it.

As one great liberal said that outshines all whom who would call themselves liberal today that starred down the missiles of another failed ideology:

"And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

[JFK - [Link: www.americanrhetoric.com...]
.
See these LGF threads for info and photos:

LGF Link and LGF Link

Lizardoids pass this message to your friends, relatives, and all who will listen. If you know online gaming freaks have them spread the word in the gamerooms. Tell them this is a real war strategy game. And so on, and so on, . . .

Flood the OP-ED sections of your newspapers, email the major network news bureaus, and call the talk shows.

Have we lost all meaning in our words to describe or lost sensitivity to this barbaric, horrific, sadistic, and misogynic torture of Iranian women that these asshats carryout in the name of a "religion" of peace?

Just remember it could be your own daughters next!

This is evil incarnate! There is no defense or excuse. The line must be drawn in the sand before our own culture is infected.

82 quark2  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 4:20:55pm

@71 piniella

Mebbe we'll be asking one day real near in the future why we no longer see any posts by you.

83 TalkinKamel  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 4:23:38pm

Piniella

Piniella.

Marxism is dead, and Left-wing stupidity isn't cool anymore (except in the MSM.)

Deal with it.

84 Martel-Sobieski  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 4:25:20pm

Unfortunately for Spain and for Europe, the main legacy of the Francisco Franco regime is a strain of virulent leftism which puts the lefties we have in the USA to shame.

Fortunately for the world, the Conservatives like Aznar are about half the electorate.

Pray that they can keep thier lefties in check, and that they can recover the spirit of the Reconquista, which was Spain's defining epocj.

85 mich-again  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 4:35:04pm

71 piniella

In the words of the immortal Ronald Reagan during a debate with Jimmy Carter...

There you go again...


BTW, I'm sure there are more appropriate websites out there for posting your wild delusional fantasies. Then again, I'm pretty sure you just post that nonsense to get a rise out of the Lizard Nation. The shtick is getting old though.

86 TalkinKamel  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 4:46:51pm

Piniella

mich again, #85, is right; your schtick's getting old---but then that whole "Gawd-I-hate-Amerikkka-I-yam-sooo-progressive-unl ike-you-rightwingfacistbigothatemongers!" is so ancient it's growing mold!

Face it, Dude! Marxism failed. I know, I know you LLL's are all hoping Islamofacism will pump a little life back into the old Zombie---but, really, all you'll end up with is Shari'a law, and dhimmitude if it succeeds! You think Bushitler and your mom screaming at you to go out and get a job are oppressive? Just wait 'till you're living under the Caliphate!

The 60's are over (and they really weren't that wonderful anyway.) Go buy yourself a copy of "The Black Book of Communism."

87 ToxMan  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 5:26:41pm

#39 Pini

So, the big point of these studies is "the war has radicalized" some Arabs and Muslims...

Inflammed by mullahs or images or whatever, large numbers of young men are off to Iraq to fight the infidels

Likewise, inflammed by the images of WTC collapsing and the Pentagon in shambles along with the grief of the loss of 3000 innocent lives, many young Americans joined the Armed Services, knowing (repeat) knowing that our country was going to respond...

Had 9/11 never occurred, do you think many of these young people would have decided to enlist?

This is not a phenomena. It is human nature, and nothing new under the sun.

88 gunslingah  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 6:33:22pm

AN OPEN LETTER TO SPAIN

Dear Spain:

We have noted with dismay your national decision to abjectly surrender to Islamist terrorism. This decision is yours to take as a sovereign nation; we shall not try to interfere. Our purpose here is not to condemn you, but rather to say goodbye. We truly hope that you have enjoyed your roughly five centuries as a part of modern civilization. We hope that these fond memories of civilization will sustain you as you are subjugated under the Islamist boot. (Note: your memories will be about the only things with which you may amuse yourself, as music, books, art, and pretty much every other form of "entertainment" are prohibited under the bleak regime you have chosen to enter). As you depart the 21st Century and begin your long slide back into the Dark Ages, please remember two things:

1) Please collect your hats, beards and burkhas at the door.
2) Please don't say we didn't warn you.

Sincerely, your true friend,

The West

89 Malleus Dei  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 7:38:22pm

While it is evident that not all Muslims living among us are terrorists, nevertheless, to pursue an immigration policy that amounts to a wide-open door in its practical effect is, in light of very recent events, irresponsible.

Amen. Senor Aznar, would you *please* try to get George W. Bush to understand this concept.

90 piniella  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 7:59:27pm

#86 talkintoad - "Face it, Dude! Marxism failed. "

LMFAO! If someone didn't tell you, you'd forget to breathe. WTF is it with this neurotic habit of seeing Marxists everywhere?

91 piniella  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 8:02:54pm

#80 malcon -

chew on this for a bit...

Those, no doubt, are in some way fortunate who have brought themselves, or have been brought by others, to obey some ultimate principle before the bar of which all problems can be brought. Single-minded monists, ruthless fanatics, men possessed by an all-embracing coherent vision do not know the doubts and agonies of those who cannot wholly blind themselves to reality. Isaiah Berlin, Five Essays on Liberty (1969), p. 47.

92 Geepers  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 8:06:26pm
Then, send him to trial at The Hague for war crimes.

Hopefully, he will be swinging from the gallows.

Somebody want to tell piniella that the Eoropeons ain't got no death penalty.

93 piniella  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 8:20:22pm

#92 geepers -

You are correct!

PART 7. PENALTIES
Article 77
Applicable penalties
1. Subject to article 110, the Court may impose one of the following penalties on a person convicted of a crime referred to in article 5 of this Statute:
(a) Imprisonment for a specified number of years, which may not exceed a maximum of
30 years; or
(b) A term of life imprisonment when justified by the extreme gravity of the crime andthe individual circumstances of the convicted person.

94 Dave Brown  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 8:30:24pm

NEWS FLASH!

Roosevelt lied! People died!

Roosevelt uses Pearl Harbor as a pretext for war against a stable (though admittedly dictatorial) German government. A government against whom a sinister cabal of “neocon” Joooz within the Roosevelt administration had long been plotting.

The first US initiative in this secret "Germany First" war plan was an unprovoked, illegal and undeclared attack by America against neutral territory (Morocco and Algeria)!

Roosevelt’s plan effectively made everything west of Alaska, Hawaii, and the Panama Canal expendable, including American military forces in the western Pacific and Australia. The crippled chicken-hawk just let those poor American boys die!

Instead of going after those fanatical suicide bombers in Japan, he tricked the American people into fighting an illegal war against the (harsh but) secular and pragmatic leaders of Germany. Anyway, it was the Americans who invested and helped build up the Germans in the 20’s and 30’s (Ford, ITT, IBM, etc); how hypocritical to attack them now.

France is furious! The Europeans (Franco, Mussolini, the Vichy...) are shocked... shocked! This “cowboy” anti-globalist attitude...

And it turns out, this whole invasion of North African and West Asia...it was just a racist move to control oil fields in Arabia, Mesopotamia and Persia. An illegal attempt to deny the rights of these nations to freely sell their petroleum to Italy, Germany, Japan and other peace-loving nations.

No blood for oil!

[The newly revised school history books will be available soon... Be sure to bring your old ones out for burning]

***
REFERENCES:

However, despite the American generals' misgivings and Stalin's pleas for a second front, Roosevelt and the other Allies approved Operation Torch on July 25, 1942. Operation Torch involved a "series of landings in French-controlled Morocco and Algeria that Churchill and Roosevelt had decided was to be their major effort for the year 1942" (Hughes, 343).
[Link: cghs.dade.k12.fl.us...]


Churchill was alarmed to find on his arrival in Washington that the American public was calling for an all-out war of vengeance against Japan. ...When Churchill addressed Congress on 26 December 1941, he made no mention of the President's secret commitment to a "Germany First" strategy for the United States military forces. He limited himself to a powerful speech condemning the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor...

[Link: www.users.bigpond.com...]

Operation Torch was an unprovoked attack against a neutral, and against a country which was (compared to Saddam's Iraq) a human-rights paradise. Like George Bush, Roosevelt miscalculated the extent of the resistance. Some of the Vichy forces fought against the American invasion, and the Germans quickly moved into North Africa (just as Syrian and Iranian surrogates have begun fighting in Iraq).

Operation Torch was contrary to international law and to the wishes of the French government; yet in the long run, it advanced the interests of international law and of France.

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

95 Dan Gummitt  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:03:35pm

piniella's escaped from her strait jacket again.

Nurse Ratchet's going to be pissed in the morning when she sees the mess you made piniella!

96 Claudius  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 9:42:18pm

"do not know the doubts and agonies of those who cannot wholly blind themselves to reality."

Aaaand, in the end, it always comes back to

(a)
one's superiority (cannot blind themselves ...)

(b)
one's agonies. One's Angst. One's feeelings.

[Berlin is exempt from this criticism - he wrote the line, but you're appropriating it as a blazon.]

Are you in pain because you're better, or are you better because you're in pain, Dieter?

Anybody else remember "The Young Ones?" Rik's poetry?

"Why am I so much more sensitive
And smart
Than the others
Damn those fascists
Damn my spots ..."

(rough paraphrase)

97 piniella  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:02:33pm

#96 claudius -

The notion that there must exist final objective answers to normative questions, truths that can be demonstrated or directly intuited, that it is in principle possible to discover a harmonious pattern in which all
values are reconciled, and that it is towards this unique goal that we must make; that we can uncover some single central principle that shapes this vision, a principle which, once found, will govern our lives - this
ancient and almost universal belief, on which so much traditional thought and action and philosophical doctrine rests, seems to me invalid, and at times to have led (and still to lead) to absurdities in theory and barbarous consequences in practice. Isaiah Berlin, Five Essays on Liberty (1969), 47-8

98 Dan Gummitt  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:29:58pm

Medication time piniella.

Moral relativism has led to "absurdities in theory" such as the aetheistic American Left making common cause with a medieval religion.

And "barbarous consequences" of moral relativism are on the news every night.

Pitch another one into my wheelhouse princess.

99 Claudius  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 10:56:47pm

For the lack of your own words to engage, I'll take up Old Izzie. I'd never presume to "fisk" (as teh interkidz say) such a luminary, so just a brief riposte.

(Again, flashing on the young ones - "Talk about Oscar Wilde!")

Who said anything about truths, normative questions, teleology or a central principle?

"I don't want to be blown the fuck up and I'm willing to let other stuff be fudged if that principle remains central." The Real Reason BushHitler Won Again.

Let's see - claim to truth? normative discourse of the hegemonic panoptididdle?

mmm. Nope. self-preservation. Assertion of the Ich. All the stuff you romantic revolutionaries, or posthuman transdiscursives, or whatever bullshit name the latest crop of pointy-heads has come up with for itself. hypocrite TA, mon sembable.

News Flash, tweedle: The people who are *really* down with Teleological Truths of Certain Universality ... are the ones blowing mufukas up. Or maybe those people are "nihilist" and post-human enough to float your boat, but the terror-merchants behind them are Himmler in a keffiyeh.

Who ever thought Paul Berman could change the game?

(This is like the moment in "The Dirty Dozen" when Lee Marvin tells the black-soldier-who-killed-redneck-soldiers-assaulti ng-him:

"Why not turn your anger against the Germans? They're the real master-race merchants."

(And "Master Race Merchants" would be, probably is, an apposite name for a British or at a pinch Scandinavian metal band.)

100 Dan Gummitt  Sun, Jul 17, 2005 11:06:54pm

(1969) Hah!

"The brown acid is not specifically too good"

101 paulag5777  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 12:39:49am

18 July 2005
"...Terrorism succeeds when it understands that through its violent acts it has broken the will of individual citizens. I have already stated that we are at war with Bin Laden, and anyone who refuses to see it, preferring to negotiate and make pacts with terror, does nothing else but make more terror a certainty. To surrender without a fight can only cause the deaths of more victims, because terrorism gives no quarter. Islamic terrorism does not want a dialogue of civilizations, because its only goal is to impose its own on ours. Let’s not forget it..."
Jose Maria Aznar

Senor Anzar has so succinctly and eloquently stated, cutting to the chase of the entire matter of "negotiations" and "pacts" with terrorists. We cannot approach them with our mentality of compromise. They do not understand the entire concept. Would that we could understand this simple fact before disengagement from Gaza.

I only hope and pray that this week's Grand Trine in the Fire Signs will influence us to take a stand when needed.

~Paula Gaon

Grand Trine in the Fire Signs

102 TMF  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 2:56:49am

#39 Pindick

SO are they FOR the war in Afghanistan?

LOL!

The US invades Iraq and suddenly all the moderate muslim choir boys in Sudan, Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia are flocking to Baghdad to blow up children.

Just like, an overnight transformation kinda thingie.

Do you believe Bugs Bunny is a real character?

103 John B  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 5:29:03am

Mary in LA:

Thanks to you and your sister for this article and translation. I've saved it for future reference.

104 TalkinKamel  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 6:00:21am

Piniella

Berlin spouts almost as much gibberish as you do.

105 laserjock  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 6:12:30am

Aznar's point about the irrelevance of the terrorist's pretexts is a very germane one to the West at this point in time. The liberals currently residing in La La Land would like nothing more than to simply self-flaggelate and cry "It's our fault, we caused their violence" because it fits their self-guilt mindset.

Also, it provides an excellent subconscious screen - the alternative is to believe the truth, that these Islamonutters reallt want to take over the world and impose sharia everywhere. Fascist Supremecy is so hard for them to understand when it's not coming from the quarter of the cliched recalcitrant white male.

Once you decide that this culture's death cult needs to be extinguished, you must necessarily discard the fiction that there is no morality, no right, no wrong.

The left will never give up this fiction.

106 alegrias  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 8:21:23am

#84 Martel Sobieski

Leftist, pro-communist and socialist Spain has its fashionably leftist EUROPEAN siblings to thank, not Francisco Franco!

Spain's civil war of 1936-39 was between the stalinist/socialist/communist funded leftists, liberals and apathetic or clueless people versus capitalists, business people, Catholics, the Church, shopkeepers, conservatives of all kinds, and the military of Generalisimo Francisco Franco.

Contrary to your opinion, by winning the Civil War and working with America over 40 years, allowing US military bases all over Spain, Franco greased the way for democracy to be inevitable given America and it's democratic allies such as Britain's pro-capitalist, pro-democracy and freedom values took root in post-civil war Spain.

Foreign money developed the Costa del Sol beaches in formerly communist Andalucia, sparking economic booms that haven't let up.

107 alegrias  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 8:28:41am

FYI, Aznar was not up for re-election in Spain last year. His party's nominee was Mariano Rajoy, now presumably leader of the loyal opposition party, Aznar's Partido Popular.

108 mich-again  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 2:49:07pm

90 piniella

WTF is it with this neurotic habit of seeing Marxists everywhere?

The Marxists are out there still, and they are as delusional as ever. They are alligning themselves with radical Islam, because in that perverted cult, the Marxists have found their long lost brothers. In both cults, everything would be just great if the rest of the Human beings out there would surrender their individuality and quest to live their own lives and instead fill a role in the antfarm or beehive, the Marxist's model for society.

Neither vision for humanity will ever work. People refuse to live like that. But the idiots in both groups are teaming up in their collective death spasm. The hell with both of them.

109 Mary in LA  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 3:33:46pm
Let's see - claim to truth? normative discourse of the hegemonic panoptididdle?

ROFL!
Claudius, you are my hero o' the day! I am sooo stealing that... :-)

110 Mary in LA  Mon, Jul 18, 2005 3:33:58pm
Let's see - claim to truth? normative discourse of the hegemonic panoptididdle?

ROFL!
Claudius, you are my hero o' the day! I am sooo stealing that... :-)


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