Unbelievable.

Why must A-rabs soil holy ground?

wow.

Remember the memorial-9/11

Patriots...and this nations' foundation is the Cross.

Unfreaking believable. Fricking dickweed leftist appeasers get their mits into everything and we let it happen like stupid sheeple.

If we just stand by and let it happen, then we deserve what we get.

More multi culturism at work..

These idiots dont get it...

Muslims want you all right

Either you become a slave to islam
Or you will die ...

Period no discussions..

I dont CARE what the LEFT or the Muslims think

We will fight...
We will NOT surrender

We woul rather die than be slaves to the death cult called Islam

Give me Liberty from islam
Or give me death..

I will never be an islamic SLAVE!

Bush is a failure.

Charles,

You could run a contest for people betting on how long it will take to quash this outrageous "memorial."

On the earlier thread, one of the posters referred to an early American flag with a rattlesnake and the words "Don't Tread on Me." That's what I think a memorial for Flight 93 should look like from the air.

slightly OT: Looks like the Univeristy of Colorado will investigate W.C. (water closet) for being an all around scumbag and fraud...

The faculty committee called for investigating Ward Churchill (search) on seven allegations involving plagiarism, misuse of others' work and falsification and fabrication, interim provost Susan Avery said.

'bout time...

I believe that the design for this memorial was selected by means of a contest or at least from numerous alternative submissions. Do we know anything about the architect who designed it and whether he/she has an unsavory agenda?

#7
Aren't you up past your bed time?

Right, I said this last night and I'll say it again, this artist knows what he's doing, this is in pre-emptive response to anyone saying he might be ignorant. It is done intentionally for one reason or another, what, I'm not sure, I've seen two good theories on it though.

this "memorial" does not make me think of the brave soles that fought back.

Did they pick the artist from that 9/11 hate America contest?

#8 promethea

Excellent idea!

The intelligence of trolls is amazing. Verb and noun together in a single sentence, bravo!

Let's build the world's biggest toilet in Mecca.

I find this so-called memorial disgusting almost beyond words. This is nearly as offensive as a box of "Piss Christ," snuff films, and Riefenstahl's Nazi propaganda wrapped with pages torn from Maplethorpe's "work."

Somehow it's appropriate that this is called "Cresent of Embrace." Indeed, death of innocents is what occurs when one embraces the red cresent of Islam.

To the architect/designer who put this together, I offer you a hearty "go fuck yourself."

With Korans as toilet paper, of course.

Having a big red crescent as a memorial for the Flight 93 victims is akin to having a swastika at a Holocaust memorial:

[Link: cuanas.blogspot.com...]

Scroll up and down. There are many emails from commenters who have sent off letters of reprimand to the architects of this disgusting memorial.

Pastorius

Well at least it's not a cross. That would be racist-sexist-homophobic-fascist-Nazi-rightwing-Re publican-Islamophobia!

9/11 Rescuers Receive Posthumous Medals

WASHINGTON - President Bush honored 442 firefighters, police officers, and rescuers who died Sept. 11, awarding posthumous Medals of Valor to their families at a White House ceremony Friday.

Wasn't this like (Sheehanism) like linked 30 something times on Malkins’ site?! This is big!

Charles and the rest have brought it to light: Bloggers have dissected the crap out of it, and now the MSM MUST react.

If they do not: the flood of emails may hurt their journalistic integrity...

#9 Imploder - from your link: "The committee recommended dropping two other allegations, that Churchill falsely claimed to be an American Indian and that he infringed on a copyright."

WTF? This guy LIED about his ancestory to get the job as chairman of the Ethnic Studies department and they're gonna drop THAT charge? As a lawyer I assure you that what he did was what we call fraud in the inducement; he lied to get money. Period. And this one they're letting him walk on. Unfuckingbelivable. I can't comment on the infringment of a copyright, since he infringed on so many, it's hard to tell which one they're letting him skate on.
BTW - does anyone know if Leroy Ward Churchill (his full legal name according to his military records) is still getting paid by the school?

What we need is an outline of a Colt 45 - something that would have saved the whole plane if it were carried by an American. Plus three or four islamofascists sucking wind through gaping holes in their body is also a good thing.

Is that supposed to be a giant target on the ground?

How the hell does crap like this happen? Was it not Muslims that took over the plane that was forced down by Americans? If they don't get that Allah damned crescent off the memorial someone is going remove it for them after the memorial is erected.

We simply cannot allow this travesty to be constructed.

#11 Right wing animator,

What are the theories you have seen?

I suspect the same, but until I find out what the guys real motivations are, I am going to try to smoke him out with kindness.

I had a twenty-five minute conversation with his P.R. guy today. I will be following up via email and phone calls. I might even interview the guy.

I believe there is something more at the bottom of this, but we just don't know yet.

By the way, the PR guy told me that family members of the victims were involved in the decision to use this shameful image. He said the fact that the crescent was the symbol of Islam had entered the dialogue, but had not been deemed reason to excise it. He said they used the crescent as a pure form, whose meaning is to them an embrace. He also said that the land where the Flight 93 crashed had been a quarry and that it had had the general look of a crescent shaped bowl previously.

I kind of believe the man's assertions, but I still think they screwed up big time, and I think there are shadow motives at play.

What other projects does this guy have? A Holocaust memorial is the shape of a swastica?

#20 T. Jefferson - Good Lord, how did they get into the Yahoo news cycle? Someone screwed up at Yahoo New today.
Bet there isn't any other mention of this in the MSM.

#21 Intestinal Fortitude - "...the flood of emails may hurt their journalistic integrity... "

ROTFLMAO! journalistic integrity, heh, whoo!

why not a ginormous swastika?

This is a complete outrage.

As free loving Americans, we must do everthing in our power to prevent this outrage and abomination from ever being erected on sacred soil consecrated by the blood of HEROES.

We should spread the word about this so-called monument and DEMAND that a true monmument be built upon this site.

Maybe a HUGE cross.

Like the huge cross that is along interstate 40 in Texas between Oklahoma City and Amarillo.

I can't remember the town it is in but I have seen it several times because I have made that drive a number of times over the last couple of years.

@27 Pastorius

If you interview the architect, please update us.
I emailed him early this morning. Polite but
adamant this could not stand.

Ever heard of Roundup® ?

jamgarr

Do we know anything about the architect who designed it and whether he/she has an unsavory agenda?

yes, i believe it's Atta

Symbolism is so passe. Crescent. Crucifix. Tall buildings which touch the sky.
When the meaning is lost on what it is to be an American it makes no difference at all.

/cynicism

You know, this crescent is as bad as if they used a damn bullseye for the memorial.

It's is just sad that someone could even think of using this symbol to commemorate this tragedy.

#18 Pastorius

VERY well said! Precisely right.

A memorial is supposed to memorialize the innocent, not the perpetrators! This is a tribute to islam when it should be a warning.

Beamer is Rolling in his grave

#32 Sam I Am

a good example of a giant cross in Texas can be found here.

The Ballinger cross is 100 feet tall, on a hill and visible for miles around. It is near San Angelo, Texas.

In deference to those who may not have been Christians, however, I think I might choose a more religion neutral symbology.

I certainly wouldn't have picked a freakin' crescent. That seems pretty dang simple to me.

Sm, i am

damn bullseye for the memorial.

Bullseye doesn't deserve the diss

What does a second thread on this topic accomplish?

belch forth your rotten bile

Sounds like a new revolving title to me.

Rayra, you are in rare form this evening.

Hey, have you checked your e-mails lately? I'm pretty sure there is plenty in that inbox just waiting for you. ;-)

#33 Quark 2,

I'm glad people are emailing and contacting these people. And, I think it's important that we be polite. I was polite to a fault, probably, but I, also, was adamant that this can't go up.

It's strange to talk to a PR guy. You know he doesn't really have much say other than in registering your feelings and then reporting back an overall impression.

We need to make it clear to these people that rational people like ourselves will not stand for this. And, if they insist on going forward with it, in spite of our warnings, then they will have a PR calamity on their hands.

This requires that we speak to them in the language of polite rationality.

Sorry to repeat myself, but this is a battle I want us to win.

I told the guy I was a writer, and asked him if he was familiar with the blogosphere, and there was a pregnant pause before he answered yes.

We can thank Charles for that pregnant pause.

Pastorius

#7 ProudLiberals dot com,

Yeah, we should have outlawed Islam and L³iberalism, and deported you all to the same sand Hell on 12 Sept 01.

Then turned the sand to glass.

As I said in the last thread on this subject, I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, if the crescent shape is meant to make some kind of pro-Islam statement.

However, it's still in poor taste, and the artist and the committee who oversaw this thing should have known better.

The one thing that makes me think that it could be intentional is the fact that in the artist's depiction of it, not only is it crescent-shaped, but it's also red.

If I am recalling correctly, isn't red the color of choice for most Islamic crescent logos, on flags and such?

I know that some Islamic terror groups use green a lot, but I'm fairly sure red is their preferred color overall.

If this were a green crescent, or yellow, or blue one, it wouldn't seem as bad, but red? The color choice (in addition to the shape) is what makes it even more suspicious to me.

#7

Bush is such a failure

How funny, dickweed. Bush is a failure when loony moonbats like yourself keep losing elections all over the country. Even in the left coast where loony moonbats voted to legalize gay marriage, thus going against the will of the people, they will find them on the losing side of the election AGAIN.

Loony moonbats like you are good at election fraud. Just look at Louisiana. If Sen. Mary Landrieu were as good at busing black people to safety as she was at busing them to the polls to vote, none of them would have died.

It's in memory of the Muslims who died on Flight 93.

#41 imploder

Thanks for the photo. Looks very similar to the cross I was thinking about. I do know the cross I was referring to is 130+ feet tall. Besides, using a cross would certainly be like stiking a huge thumb in the eye of the Islamofascists.

#42 atlasshrugged

I meant no offense. I just meant that this crescent is as bad as using a bulls eye (like the airplane hit a target in the center). And using a bullseye would be completely demeaning.

#43 Kyriakon

What does a second thread on this topic accomplish?

1. Makes my blood boil in anger over the outrage all over again.

2. Hopefully motivates more people to email and contact the people responsible for this outrage.

I hope Charles keeps this alive until the design is changed.

Live up the tempest in a teacup about this while you still can. The statute of limitations on using 9/11 for your purposes is about up.

9/11 was a very conservative disaster. It gave war-mongers a defined enemy (which you still managed to fuck up, but whatever, all those A-rabs look the same anyway). It was an epic disaster that rallied the country around Republicans.

Katrina is a liberal disaster. It affected, and continues to affect the downtrodden, the poor, the underclass. There is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. There is no swarthy other to kill. Indeed, it was our own ruling class that let our citizens die. It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

If you really want to have this design changed, I suggest the following. Start a campaign to PRAISE the design as an eternal reminder of what the real imprint of Islam has been on the USA: to wit, terrorism and death.

Once the MSM gets a whiff that people on the Right see the memorial as a desirable anti-Islamic statement, there'll be a mad rush to change it. Guaranteed.

#7 "Bush is a failure", says "ProudLiberals dot com"

At committing perjury and getting oral sex from people like Monica Lewinksy, absolutely!

It's also great that unlike Clinton, Bush takes terrorism *seriously* and does something meaningful about it.

And for all that, I am grateful.

#43 Kyriakon,

Until they change it we should scream at the top of our lungs. Like Atlas said, how is this different than a big, red swastika? If you are going to go this far, I figure we should have a Nazi flag, Japanese Rising Sun, NVA, NorK, and most definately a USSR hammer and sickle flag flying.

Of course, we beat those enemies as well.

All enemies, foreign and domestic. Those were the words. I never served, but I took the oath.

Oh brother. That one might just be front-page material.

Liberal jackasses at work again. Another outrage to be ignored by our Fifth Column Fourth Estate.

Slugger O'Toole has a great column. Ill Wind may not blow to the Whitehouse.

Newton Emerson is on great form in the Irish Times today. Since it deserves a much wider play on the Internet. I have permission from him to republish it on the net. It's a rhetorical gem.

By Newton Emerson

As the full horror of Hurricane Katrina sinks in, thousands of desperate columnists are asking if this is the end of George Bush's presidency. The answer is almost certainly yes, provided that every copy of the US Constitution was destroyed in the storm. Otherwise President Bush will remain in office until noon on January 20th, 2009, as required by the 20th Amendment, after which he is barred from seeking a third term anyway under the 22nd Amendment.

As the full horror of this sinks in, thousands of desperate columnists are asking if the entire political agenda of George Bush's second term will not still be damaged in some terribly satisfying way.

The answer is almost certainly yes, provided that the entire political agenda of George Bush's second term consists of repealing the 22nd Amendment. Otherwise, with a clear Republican majority in both Houses of Congress, he can carry on doing pretty much whatever he likes.

The whole column runs like this and is very good.

+Photi

kyriakon

What does a second thread on this topic accomplish?

yes, quite right, let's just all submit to dhimmitude, eh?

unless

you mean we are preaching to the converted here at LGF and in the blogosphere and the clock is ticking so we all need to contribute to purchasing a half hour of primetime on CNN or any of the other alphabets and have CHARLES produce a daily half hour news segment on what is really happening in America and across the globe and wake the American people the fuck up

if that is what you meant, I quite agree

54 liberality

You are a complete f*cking idiot.

You do not get it do you.

9/11 killed democrats, republicans, independants alike.

Katrina didn't bother to check to see who lived where, she rained her fury down equally on the poor, middle class and rich neighborhoods a like. We aren't seeing the pictures of the destruction in the rich neighborhoods around the lake because it doesn't suit the MSM's agenda.

Pull your head out of your a&& and take a good look around. People from all walks of life have suffered great losses, losses of all they had including family members.

The poor were not victimized by the storm but the incompetence of their leaders, the Mayor and Governor, who failed to get them safely out of the city when they had the means to do so. They also failed to provide for them afterwards by denying the Red Cross entrance into the city for several days.

Please crawl back under your rock.

#54

I wasn't aware that natural disasters and terrorist attacks could be classified as "liberal" or "Republican."

Seems to me that conservatives / Republicans are the ones who have been doing things to aid Katrina victims while mostly Democrats sit about in t.v. interviews politicizing the situation and using it to bash Bush.

#54 liberality

Intentional murder versus a natural occurance.

You disgust me.

@54 liberality

here is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. There is no swarthy other to kill.

G-d your self hatred is sickening.

#58 Charles

Oh brother. That one might just be front-page material.

Which one Charles?

This is an older story, I think it was on LGF a while back. Remember the desecration of a memorial to British soldiers in France? Anti-British and anti-American slogans were spray painted on the grave, along with a swastica. Well now anti-Americans won't even need to do any work to desecrate the 9/11 memorial, it's being done for them by the architect!

#54 liberality

Katrina is a liberal disaster. It affected, and continues to affect the downtrodden, the poor, the underclass. There is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. There is no swarthy other to kill. Indeed, it was our own ruling class that let our citizens die. It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

A disaster for the liberals, certainly. Right now, one political party seems a lot more focused than the other on squuezing political advantage out of the misery of poor Black folks rather than giving them a helping hand. I think a lot of Americans will ask themselves why the Democrats couldn't put off the politicking until after the last survivor was clean and dry and the last dead victim was buried.

By the way, wonderful example of how liberals are so race-obsessed, they could never survive in a color-blind world. "Swarthy other" -- laugh-out-loud funny!

#54 liberality

GAZE

#54 Liberalty

Katrina is a liberal disaster.

You can say that again...

Your brain-dead liberal mayor and catatonic liberal governor did alot to jack that whole situation up way past beyond repair.

Amen to that.

#54 liberality

Say what?

It was Clinton, his witch (Hillary) and their witch (Goelick) that didn't pursue Osama after the first attack on the World Trade Centers.

They felt it was only a criminal case and should be pursued as such. That and all subsiquent terror attacks were addressed by Clinton as criminal cases and not the Acts of War that they were/are. If you doubt, check the records. Osama declared war on the US (while Clinton was POTUS) and Osama has continually reiterated his declaration of war during Clinton's and now Bush's presidency.

So remember that Osama was waging war against the US before Dubya became POTUS and before we invaded and liberated Afghanistan and Iraq.

We had several chances to apprehend Osama or kill him outright but every time, Slick Willy couldn't do it (I guess he had to check the polls before he made a decision).

As for Katrina, again the Democrats can only try to fix blame on Bush and Republicans rather than come up with a solution.

#54 Liberace,

I realize that you have difficulty remembering to breathe, but you might have noticed that the poor and downtrodden in States with Republican Governors fared much better that those in the State with the Democrat Governor.

And most people realize that disaster planning starts at the local level. The Mayor of New Orelans was a Democrat.

As was the Governor of Louisiana.

Oops.

gromster

If this were a green crescent, or yellow, or blue one, it wouldn't seem as bad, but red? The color choice (in addition to the shape) is what makes it even more suspicious to me.

i gotta tell ya grom, if it was chartruese that goddamn crescent would still kill me

funny that way, i am

REPLICATE THE 9/11 MEDAL OF HONOR

(it's on my site under the NEVER FORGET typelist but I refuse to plug my blog - I am fed up with blogplugging)
;-D

or check out the front page of today's NY Post

Look's like Liberality's nurse gave him the wrong meds.

#28 Megan

"What other projects does this guy have? A Holocaust memorial is the shape of a swastica?"

Either that or an eternal flaming cross at the Martin Luther King Museum.

Im sure that would not be insensative either.

KATRINA IS A RACIST!

#62 Mafia Princess

We aren't seeing the pictures of the destruction in the rich neighborhoods around the lake because it doesn't suit the MSM's agenda.

You are absolutley correct. On a related note...

My sister (who is white, poor, from the New Orleans area, and had to leave NOLA because of Katrina) told me the other day she's noticed the main stream media (as well as folks such as Jesse Jackson) keep focusing on the predominantly black areas of New Orleans (which is on the East Bank).

My sister lived on the West Bank, which has received almost no news coverage.

She pointed out that predominantly "white" areas (I think she mentioned Jefferson parish and Slidell, and some other area - Plaquerman's Parish [spelling?]- that was very hard hit) have received next to no coverage.

My sister asked if there's racism at work, why is the MSM covering blacks more so than whites?

Plenty of white people in parts of Mississippi and Alabama were affected by Katrina too, MSM doesn't hardly discuss them either.

#63 gromster,

Case in point, while Liandreiu was getting her face on TV, Vitter was getting his hands dirty trying to help his constituants.

Of course, that is the basic difference between Democrats and Republicans, isn't it? One side likes to preen, while the other side takes responsibility.

KATRINA IS A RADICAL ISLAMIST!

KATRINA IS A REPUG!

#54 liberality 9/9/2005 09:11PM PDT

I am stunned to silence by your stupidity and ignorance.
I concurr with Charles, Oh Brother.

78 atlasshrugged

KATRINA IS A RACIST!

Er.....Y'mean.....KKKatrina?

sure would have been different if Guiliani was a New Orleanian

#76 Megan

So that it explains it...

Silly me.

#54 Liberal Dickweed
It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

Why would any American who can read rally around a socialist democrat who cares about nothing but getting power any way at any cost.

Saying Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain used to work, but not anymore. You fuckers are spotted a mile away and your lies and bullshit are exposed seconds after you spout them.

You are dreaming dickweed.

are the red lines running off the crescent supposed to be Jewish blood, Christian blood, or non-radical islamic blood

#84 E2M

Er.....Y'mean.....KKKatrina?

you mean "KKKarlrina"?

#58 Charles - I'm sorry, it's late here in NYC but which comment were you referring to? C'mon, please help and older, er, more mature, guy out here.

Well, I'm going to simply repost what I wrote here early last night about this outrage, and then posted on my site:

The Cresecent Outrage:

I find it offensive that it is a crescent.

It may not be a conspiracy, it may not be done on purpose (though I doubt it if CAIR is behind this - what the hell, are we that stupid?), but I still find it offensive.

I find it just as offensive as Muslims find it offensive that President Bush used the term “Crusade”. I find it offensive in that same light.

I am not going to be “better than them”. I refuse to use our heroes and martyrs as objects of appeasement towards the enemy.

I find it offensive that our side wants to placate the other side by not using the term “Crusade” and by building bridges to mosques when Christians and Jews are persecuted by law on the other side and as part of their openly stated goal. I find it offensive that CAIR is even allowed to exist in this country as a legal entity when any non-Muslim in the part of the world which they represent is routinely oppressed, tortured, and killed.

I find it offensive that we would allow, no matter how unintentional, the symbol of Bin Laden and his fetid cohorts in crime to grace the graves of those who died protecting this country against their crimes.

I find it just as offensive as if we built a Swastika on the funeral grounds of the victims of the Holocaust to show that we don't blame all Germans.

I find it insensitive, unjustified, immoral, stupid, faithless, bigoted, moronic, wrong and offensive beyond words that we even would consider building that memorial in such a shape after it has been pointed out what that symbol stands for.

I find it even more offensive that the “artists” would have had no concept of the meaning of such a symbol; or if they did, willingly created that model anyway.

I find it offensive and tasteless, and I will not stand for it, nor should any American. Did we build a memorial on the USS Arizona in the shape of a Rising Sun? What idiot would suggest that we do? What naive fool would have suggested that back then? Who would have put up with such a torridly stupid display?

Who should put up with it today?

I find it offensive, and I am outraged - conspiracy or not - because it is wrong and it insults everything those people died for.

Those people died to protect us from having that symbol imposed upon this land - that land where they now rest. And now, because of our stupidity and our degenerate and dysfunctional psyches about our own culpability in the crimes of the history of the world, we would impose that symbol there to commemorate their sacrifice and say that they were wrong - intentional or not?

How utterly blind and stupid; how wrong; how viciously naive; how degenerate; how immoral and evil can we be to create a memorial in that shape so that Bin Laden can finally have just even 1/100th part of his dream fulfilled?

I am outraged and I am furious, and anyone who doesn't see this as a victory for Bin Laden, CAIR, and all the other apologists out there, is a God Damned Fucking Moron.

And you can quote me on that.

#60 atlasshrugged

Tell it Atlas. If I had the money that Memri piece would be on before or after the Flight 93 moving on Sunday. Now wouldn't that cause a sheet storm in the world press.

I thought the other one of the memorials "Disturbed Harmony" layout was better. I dont like the title but the rest looked pretty good.

#88 atlasshrugged

We can only hope that it is swine blood.

54 liberality

here is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger

aha, size issues eh?

poor boy

there are operations for such thngs

#10 jamgarr

I dont care if the archiacrew has an unsavory agenda. I care what the DAMN thing looks like and will look like for next couple million thousand years!

Final thought for me:
I find it amusing that lots of people say "Bush is a failure."
I'm going with, nope, Bush is a collosal success. Yes, he's not the brightest thing on two feet. Yes, all of his policies aren't so smart. Yes, he can be inarticulate and slightly bumbling.
BUT since Sept 11, he's crushed the Taliban, brought down a dictator, caused the Syrians to leave Lebanon, made Mubarak hold elections (false they may be), made the UN at least pretend to be accountable. For better or for worse, he supported Ariel Sharon's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. Hurricane Katrina shows the holes in FEMA and the Red Cross, to be sure. But I would argue that those holes would have been there no matter who was President.
It's incredibly specious and ignorant reasoning to blame President Bush for EVERYTHING, even if it's "fashionable" to do so.
Yes, President Bush is not perfect, but at the very least, he is aware and willing to fight for the United States. The isolationist policies of Clinton and the Democrats will only bite us in the ass. The US is not existing in a vaccuum. And it's rather remarkable that President Bush of all people is completely aware of this.

79 gromster

I have family in Jefferson Parish too, the west bank of the river. I've been relying on a blog for that area to get news.

Most folks are posturing in NO because it is a big city everyone knows, but you are correct, they only care about the "poor black folks" an not the rest of the city, the suburbs that are wiped out. Guess it doesn't make good copy.

Hope your family are doing okay. I'll remember them in my prayers.

#74 atlastshrugged
i gotta tell ya grom, if it was chartruese that goddamn crescent would still kill me

I hear you; I understand.

an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

Sounds like pipe dreams to me. Keep on a'smokin. Unless, by "rally around" you mean surrounding them at the polling stations and voting them out of office by resounding margins in order to secure their murderous ideology as a thing of the past.

This just in...

Bob Denver aka Gilligan has died.

Bush is being blamed because, you know, Bush never tried to rescue them from that island.

Bush just left them there to die...

/sarcasm off

Here's what my #67 was about.link

Slogans reading "Death to Yankees" and "Rosbeefs (Brits) go home" were painted on the central memorial in Etaples, near the Channel port of Boulogne in northern France.

The "Death to Yankees" was written right under the swastica. How lovely, I bet it was an inspiration for the "artist" who designed this memorial.

I like this addition to the design.

#91 Banagor

Well said.

#102 Sam I Am

LOL... too funny!

#94 Rayra,

Yeah, what they are doing is taggin' the place. Call your Congessman and your Senators, and let them know how outraged you are. Be polite, firm, and try not to mention nuking Mecca. I know it will be hard. It'll be hard for me, too :-)

I guess this is the appropriate time to feature my special zombietime page about the Flight 93 Memorial again. It's much improved since this morning, with a VERY convincing animated gif showing the memorial -- in a little-seen overhead view -- becoming an Islamic crescent. I also have links to animations by Rayra and hillbilly geek, and relevant contact info for the decision-makers.

If you have not seen it yet, it's definitely worth a look-see.

#47 Rayra

Your right first sentence on the Sustainable Designe page says it all:

We believe in the essential role of design in reforming the natural and built environments for the long term health of life on this planet.

Need not go any further.

liberalpenis wrote:

It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

Yeah. All 13 percent.

You're a ghoul.

liberality

Katrina is a liberal disaster. It affected, and continues to affect the downtrodden, the poor, the underclass

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over four days last week. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to speed away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Superdome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?
No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. And they don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

READ IT ALL

Ever notice that these LLL have an awfull lot of schoolin, but they are still uneducated and ignorant?

I have come to understand that the LLL concept of law is that the law is what ever they think it should be at a particular time to coincide with what mood they are in.

#100 savage_nation,

You're very, very, welcome. I wish I hadn't had to write it, however.

"you mean we are preaching to the converted here at LGF and in the blogosphere and the clock is ticking so we all need to contribute to purchasing a half hour of primetime on CNN or any of the other alphabets and have CHARLES produce a daily half hour news segment on what is really happening in America and across the globe and wake the American people the fuck up"

Ummm..., where can I send my donation? Anybody here produce a product that can buy advertising time? I like this idea...

Hey, they just mentioned this on Fox news, a minister in Penn. is protesting the design, to paraphrase, he said that the crescent memorializes the terrorists, and they would never put up a cross of Christ or other religious symbol...

Where have I seen that thing before? Oh yeah. That ARC on the end of the long metal rod Mohammed holds in his right hand wasn't purely symbolic. Note that it's about the width of a human neck. Note the sword.

Why would the symbolic ARC be red? Cause the real one bloody was.

#54 liberality

Good gosh al hamburger. You need to watch MEMRI piece sunshine that or crawl back under or rock.

That or are you the wolf in sheeps clothing?

#98 Mafia Princess

Thank you, and I hope your family is doing well too. I will pray for your family as well. I hope things get back to normal in that area as soon as possible.

My sister was able to return briefly to get some pets she had left there (they're all doing fine), and she returned here to continue living with my family (we live outside of Louisiana).

I think you're right and the MSM focuses on NOLA since everyone is familiar with the Superdome, the French Quarter, Cafe du Monde, etc. Somehow Gretna and Westwego aren't as 'sexy' to the MSM, I guess.

It doesn't bother me when the MSM shows black Katrina victims, as they were affected too, but the coverage has been a bit lop-sided.

Even if not for that double standard, for the liberal bloggers and Jesse Jacksons to try and drag race into the whole thing is revolting.

Claims are made that the Crescent shape is feature of the landscape, it would be a long shot to believe that IF
this was not the THIRD TIME a 9/11 Memorial has had some creative editing done to it.

[Link: www.angelfire.com...]

Once more
into the breach,
dear friends,
once more

Here are direct links to all three animated gifs: each is unique and damning in a way that only visual evidence can be damning:

zombie animated memorial/crescent comparison

Rayra animated memorial/crescent comparison

hillbilly geek animated memorial/crescent comparison

I like to call them the Throbbing Memorials, in honor of the anniversay of Rathergate.

zombie (107)

Great job. What a horrifying image.

Here's something else I found out by surfing:

The design selected still must get the approval of the director of the National Park Service and the Secretary of the Interior.

Here's the whole thing...

Looks like the Feds will be saying yea or nay...

#117 gromster

Have only heard from two family members the rest are unaccounted for.

I think the MSM needs to cover the situation with all the victims, but alas, it doesn't sell subscriptions or airtime to advertizers to be balanced in their coverage.

Hope all goes well in your newly "stuffed" household. Hope your family can get back to their homes sooner rather than later, cause I know they'll want to do just that.

Peace.

The silver lining to this disaster is the democrap slave holders in LA have lost a good many of their 'plantation slaves'.
Many of them have been taken to parts of the United States they've never been to, and eye opener right there. They've had their slates wiped clean and given a new opportunity to start anew.
New enviroment, new homes, new jobs and new
political leaders.
NO is the biggest loser of all.
I think the liberals have had their political back broken by Katrina.
And that ain't no liberal storming!

104 Carolyn

Ha. That's good.

97 mjk

I'm going with, nope, Bush is a collosal success. Yes, he's not the brightest thing on two feet. Yes, all of his policies aren't so smart. Yes, he can be inarticulate and slightly bumbling.

why is it that everytime someone comes to Bush's defense, they always haveto qualify it.

Bush does not need a goddamn buffer. He is a great President at what can be considered arguably one of the most difficult moments in American History.

There is a Civil War at play here, but it's unclear (as opposed to the Lincoln's Civil War), there is an enemy at play here, but it's unclear - no clear nation states, no definitive target, and a duplictious international world body.

You want articulate? Hitler was articulate.
Clinton was articulate. Bush tells is like it is, black and white - and plain.

That is my idea of articulate.

Consider what this man has accomplished in the face of a Fifth Column, the enemy within.

Think about it

#94 rayra

Ah yes, you were biting my head off the other night in the other thread about this same topic.

I see nothing wrong with wanting proof that it was intentional or designed to be pro-Islamic before saying, "Okay, it was intentional."

~Maybe it was, but at this stage, I don't know.

Otherwise, I am not better than my friend at another board who believes -without evidence- that

1.a.)George W. Bush was behind 9/11; or
b.) knew about it in advance yet did nothing to stop it

2.) that Dick Cheney was involved in a conspiracy to "nuke" Iran.

When I asked her for proof for assertion #2, she cited an article by *Lyndon LaRouche,* and LaRouche had no proof in his piece, only un-named sources and conjecture.

If I'm not going to buy unfounded conspiracy theories or unproven assertions from the left, I'm no more prone in buying them uncritically from the right :o)

The Fifth Column (for starters)
Media
This influence is Ginormous. It's the media elites, the alphabets, the LLL, Hollywood, to quote Ike - instead of the the "Military Industrial Complex", the real enemy is "the Media/Entertainment Industrial Complex".

Mainstream Media/Elites

QUALIFICATIONS:
Hollywood Vs. Government

Kofi Annan
The United Nations

Jimmy Carter

The Carter White House during the disasters of the Sandinista takeover of Nicaragua, the energy crisis and stagflation, the Iranian revolution and hostage crisis, and the invasion of Afghanistan. Not backing the Shah of Iran in 1979, our close ally in the Middle East, resulted in the take over by Radical Islamic Fundamentalist Ayatollah Khomeini which brings us to where we are today with Iran.

Time magazine columnist wrote that some of Carter's "Lone Ranger work has taken him dangerously close to the neighborhood of what we used to call treason"

Carter befriended North Korea during the Clinton administration, appeasing the communist regime and giving it cover for its nuclear weapons program

Edward Kennedy

"Senator Kennedy killed that girl the same as if he put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger" - George Killen ~ State Police Detective-Lieutenant

Senator John Kerry

The North Vietnamese general in charge of the military campaign that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led by John Kerry with helping him achieve victory. Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S.

Bill Clinton

In acts of official perfidy that may be unparalleled in our nation’s history, Clinton accepted bribes from Red China in the form of illegal political contributions, and in exchange made policy decisions that undermined our national security to the benefit of that hostile foreign power.
• The Red Chinese military (the so-called People’s Liberation Army, or PLA) is now able to deploy much more accurate nuclear-armed missiles pointed at the United States, in large measure because of policy decisions by President Clinton
• President Clinton signed national security waivers to allow four U.S. commercial satellites to be launched in China, despite evidence that China was exporting nuclear and missile technology to Pakistan and Iran.

"How did it come about that highly sensitive technical information was given to the Chinese? Why did the president ignore the national security experts who counseled against this deal? What damage has been done to our national security?" Goss asked.

Clinton's terror failures are too numerous and damaging to recount here but Bill Clinton was the quintessential dhimmi. He allowed AL QAEDA CELLS - INCLUDING THE 9/11 CELL to OPERATE IN THE USA ignored the World Trade Center bombings of '93, ignored the Cole, the embassy bombings and handed Israel over to the most barbaric terrorist of the late twentieth century, Yassar Arafat.

and that's just for starters...........

Clinton-era policies ignored Able Danger (Mohammed Atta et al)
Senator Robert Byrd

This ex-Klansman wasn't just a passive member of the nation's most notorious hate group. He wrote: "The Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia" and "in every state in the Union." The ex-Klansman later filibustered the landmark 1964 Civil Rights Act - He also opposed the nominations of the Supreme Court's two black justices, liberal Thurgood Marshall and conservative Clarence Thomas. In fact, the ex-Klansman had the gall to accuse Justice Thomas of "injecting racism" into the Senate hearings. The ex-Klansman vowed never to fight "with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

Department of Education

liberality @ 54

From your post.

Katrina is a liberal disaster.

Freudian slip in shades of Codepink.

You know, I keep leaning to the thought that they really didn't see it as an Islamic crescent. The natural shape of the ground there inspires tht sort of shape. Just WHY did he pick RED maples?

What about trees that show "re-birth" by blooming crazily in the spring? Cherry trees, pear, apple? Why red? How does the color red show "healing" and "bonding"? Red is the color of alarm, alert, get the heck out of the way or you're going to be pan-caked by a very large firetruck!

Why red?

127 gromster

Actually is doesn't matter if it wasn't intential or not. We dont want the FKN thing as the final design.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has done a story on this interviewing a blogger (not Charles) who was mystified as to why this did not occur to the planners and why the families were okay with it. And throughout the article, they act like associating a red crescent with Islam is a surprise. Hello? The Islamic equivalent to the Red Cross is the Red Crescent. Geez.

What I want to know is why they just didn't design something more subtle to show how the LLL felt about Flight 93 crashing? How about "Thanks for murdering Barbara Olsen" spelled out in Bushes?

sons of beyatches...

#132 Lightning Man

"And throughout the article, they act like associating a red crescent with Islam is a surprise. Hello? The Islamic equivalent to the Red Cross is the Red Crescent. Geez. "

I honestly think there are lots of folks who wouldn't make the connection. They're the same ones that believe it when some people say Muslims and Christians/Jews worship the same God. Imagine asking Jesus if Allah was his father.

Actually is doesn't matter if it wasn't intential or not. We dont want the FKN thing as the final design.

Absolutely. And as far as I am concerned, nothing more needs to be said.

/can't top such eloquence no matter how hard I try

#130 Howyadoin

I am sure the crescent as a symbol was intentional. There are dozens of other common shapes one could choose, any decent designer would be acutely aware of the symbolism he used. The red maples turn red around the time of the anniversary of Sept 11. This isn't about healing, it is a monument to the violent nature of Islam reaching out and giving the victims of Flight 93 a fatal embrace.

It is an abomination.

howyadoin

Ummm..., where can I send my donation? Anybody here produce a product that can buy advertising time? I like this idea...

it is difficult and complicated because advertisers won't buy time on such a program

too afraid of the media/entertainment industrial complex
much the same way FOX can't sell airtme to the big boys, lots of GEICO and Christy Lane ads (one day at a tiiiiiiiiime sweet Jesus) - actually they will start running Christy again as we are coming into the holiday .season - but lets not get tangential here

FOX doesn't get the class of advertiser or share of ad dollars as say CNN, even though their numbers are so much greater and their CPMs much more effective

there is a great deal at work here.........it would almost have to be a labour of love (of freedom and our way of life and western civilization as we know it) at first and when the truth set the American people free would could move it to Pay-Per_News

Really, what is "Proud Liberal dot Com" proud of?

OK, OK, we know, Bush is both an evil racist mastermind, and a stupid party boy dimwit, at the same time, Karl Rove planned 9-11 so Ariel Sharon could invade Abu Dhabi, and every time you try to fart and leave a slick in your panties, Halliburton was responsible, but what are you proud of?

Jimmy Carter and 20% inflation and 9% unemployment? Jimmy and the hostage crisis? LBJ, his "war on poverty" and the increase in the number of black children living in single parent households? The 30 million Americans who aren't here to clog our highways because they were aborted? The fact that the Boy Scouts are public enemy number one?

Just curious.

111 house been pharteen (couldn't come up with better bathroom joke)

Ever notice that these LLL have an awfull lot of schoolin, but they are still uneducated and ignorant?

ever notice the "schoolin" has been hijacked by the left and our young minds are being inodctrinated with left wing propaganda while ranking the US at the lowest scholastic levels in math and science amoung all industrialized nations?

But lets throw more money at ourfailing education system right Peloshit?

#138 Atlasshrugged

"FOX doesn't get the class of advertiser or share of ad dollars as say CNN, even though their numbers are so much greater and their CPMs much more effective"

Wow, I am surprised! From what I understand marketing and marketing types to be, I would figure they would go for the biggest buck, no matter what or where. You know, sell their soul.

I don't mean to offend anyone in marketing. Anyone here in marketing?

#131 will_not_back_down

Yes, I know - please see previous posts I did where I said even if it is unintentional, it is in poor taste.

Is there some sort of petition goin' on to prevent the memories of those souls that were lost in that tragedy being shat upon?
Funny how most of the winners' names are Jewish. The people they defend the most would love to seem them hung from a bridge or blown up into pieces. What a fuckin' desecration, pardon my French.
/spit

I'm still smarting (30 years or so later) from the so-called "Viet Nam Veterans' Memorial"--that black-slabbed disgrace in Washington, DC. Add to that the hijacking of the 9/11 WTC memorial, and what conclusions can one come to except that the left tries to rewrite/dominate history by psuedo-artistic smear campaigns and revisionist history?

And now this.

I know that many on this site have counseled moderation and restraint in expressions of protest to the National Park Service and the sponsors of this heinous abomination, but screw all that--this means war. Bastards. Bastards. Bastards. Smug, smarmy, sanctimonious bastards.

The only course of action that would mobilze the designers to change this is angry letters from "Muslims" claiming it symbolizes Islam as a violent religion and desecrates the crescent. Is maple syrup halal?

liberality,

I don't get a lot of time to read all the threads here, and only post on occassion. So I don't know how active you are as a poster.

But you didn't do yourself any favor here. Your comments in the first thread about this subject were at least fairly reasoned. They still fell short from my standpoint, but an argument could be had that they were somewhat reasonable.

Your comment here just shows you as the typical liberal ass. No reason, just emotion and illogical conclusions.

It's often premature to start counting on a good harvest until the season is over. Or, in other words, don't count your chickies before they hatch. You've got a long time to wait before you know if Democrats reap any rewards from Katrina.

I'm bettin that you're going to be disappointed.

Next time, be happy with your 10% credibility and just shut up and sneak out.

I do hope they don't ban you though..... you're very entertaining in a hemoroidal (?) way.

Does Liberality remember (not that I do, I was born the beginning of 1964, but unlike him/her/it, I can read)that the Civil Rights act was passed in Congress with a majority of Democrats voting against, because the majority of Republicans voted for it.

Or that, all fun Michael Moore had with him after he was already suffering with Alzheimers aside, Charlton Heston, life long Republican and 2nd Amendment advocate actually marched with Dr. Martin Luther King?

Tell me, what was your hero, Robert Byrd, the "Consience of the Senate", doing 50 years ago?

127 gromster

I see nothing wrong with wanting proof that it was intentional or designed to be pro-Islamic before saying, "Okay, it was intentional."

I want proof that we exist

I want proof that this is not a dream some asshole is having and we are merely players.

I want proof that you really said that.

A is A

helllooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

#54 dipshit

Katrina is a liberal disaster. It affected, and continues to affect the downtrodden, the poor, the underclass. There is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. There is no swarthy other to kill. Indeed, it was our own ruling class that let our citizens die. It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

It was the crooked Democratic political hacks in La. who screwed the people of NO, by talking the CoE into using tax dollars for pork-barrel projects like the new locks on the industrial canal and the port of Iberia, instead of flood control and mitigation projects in NO:

WaPo: Money Flowed to Questionable Projects

and embezzlement by employees of the La. Dept. of Homeland Security:

USDoJ: THREE STATE OFFICIALS INDICTED FOR OBSTRUCTING FEDERAL AUDIT

As Cheney would say, "GFY".

I originally thought, "hey, maybe innocent mistake", but the name of the memorial is a give away.

It is a "hey, Islam, no hard feelings, we forgive you for killing 3000 people, forgive us for Israel and the Iraq invasion" monument.

Not sure if this article has been posted before, but it's important and needs to be read:

Families, jury LOVE the design:

As the black cloak that had hidden the winner was removed, a collective gasp came from those gathered, who then rose to their feet to applaud.

In the front row, three family members --a woman who lost her mother, a woman who lost her husband and a woman who lost her brother -- leaned into each other, in a show of love and support.

"It's powerful but understated," said Kiki Homer, whose brother, LeRoy W. Homer Jr., was co-pilot on the plane that crashed after passengers rebelled against terrorist hijackers. "It's beautifully simple.

"My breath is taken away."

Esther Heymann, whose daughter, Elizabeth Wainio, died in the crash, agreed.

"The understatement speaks to the profoundness of what occurred here," she said.
...
From the beginning, said Milena Murdoch, 46, the focus for them was on the crash site, which many refer to as sacred ground.

She talks wistfully of a grove of hemlock trees behind the ground that withstood the impact of the crash.

"There was something unexplained about that place," Paul Murdoch added. "It's like being in a cathedral."

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the architects and the jury simply NEVER NOTICED that they were building a memorial to Islam. Incredible as it may seem, I have yet to uncover any intentional villainy on the part of the designers or the deciders. I think they may very well have been simply idiots who blundered into the worst decision of their lives, COMPLETELY UNAWARE of the design's significance.

I know that may not seem believable, but it really seems more and more to be true. I have spent hours searching databases about this, and reading articles from all over, and in every single case the significance of the crescent seems totally lost on these people.

I think once they are made aware of it, they will be horrified. In fact, Paul Murdoch has surely received hundreds of emails on this topic by now, and he's probably in shock.

#54 Liberality

Okay, if Katrina exposed the ignored underclass in NO, why aren't LA and NO politicians to blame? Democrats have ruled that state for decades and the problem of inner city crime and poverty have festered under Democrat rule. The Federal government doesn't control NO police who managed to keep the wealthy income producing (white) areas of the city relatively safe while poor people were left to live in fear of their neighbors with some of the highest murder rates in the nation. That's not Bush's fault, he's not the police chief.

Democrat politicians siphoned off millions in public works monies, and left poor people to drown while buses became water logged. Only an idiot would believe it was a good idea to shut bridges and not use every city and school bus to move people to safety outside the flood area. No Republican had control of these things. Democrats promise to help the poor, but they either treat them like half-wits who deserve pity or vote whores, enslaved by promises of more aid.

141 howyadoin

Wow, I am surprised! From what I understand marketing and marketing types to be, I would figure they would go for the biggest buck, no matter what or where. You know, sell their soul.

yeah, me

haven't you ever wondered why papers like The National Enquirer the largest selling newspaper in America could never get real ad dollars. Their revenues were really circ driven.

Or why a New York Times would sell advertsing that The New York Daily News (with larger numbers) or The New York Post wouldn't have a chance of getting?

Perception is everything in that biz and just like the media they play to themselves, which btw was ok in the past because buying network television and cable flights was a no brainer.

he media landscape is changing whether they like it or not, which is why you are suddenly seeing ad $ thrown at the net but mostly on search engines and major sites (NYTimes, WSJ etc.)

They don't know how to buy blog space, they are afraid of it

#153 Rayra - Thanks nice catch! My bad.

That was a comment I heard on Air America as one great thing that came out of 911.

#155, zombie. Interesting and objective comments. Now a hypothetical question. How many kid at Auswitz, born after 1933, were named Adolf.

141 howyadoin

Anyone here in marketing?

yeah,me

(thats what the "yeah me" was in *157)

strategic planning, publishing background, New York Newspapers

#157

Do you think the ad buys decisions are driven by executives of the companies (who probably trend right) or the ad buyers who think Fox is for drooling idiots? If the buyers aren't working by demographics they aren't doing their jobs.

I am not surprised by liberality's little spewage? It's a ghoul. They think writing like the comments in #54 is acceptable.

It's hard for liberality to feel shame at what it does, since it has no capacity for it.

OK, I rarely do this, but I RETRACT my post #155, after reading the psyche-destroying article linked to by #132 Lightning_Man above.

EVERYONE: REFRAIN FROM COMMENTING until you read THIS article.

The designer and the jurors DID KNOW ABOUT THE ISLAMIC CONNECTION, but decided that "it wasn't important."

Has the world gone mad? ?

I'm speechless after reading some of this -- well, not speechless, but becoming apoplectic:

"A crescent is part of architectural vocabulary. It's a generic form used in design," said Paul Murdoch, one of the winning architects. "We don't see any one group having ownership of it."

Murdoch believes it's unfortunate that the design is being interpreted that way.

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it an arc. We can call it a circle. We can call it the edge of the bowl. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

"We have no objection to calling it something else."

Murdoch did say they have no intentions of changing the design.
...
Mark McMorrow, who runs the Constitutional Conservative blog online, wrote this yesterday: "Didn't anybody pick up on the crescent/Islam relationship? Didn't this occur to any of the victim's family members? Even if it's an accident, I don't think this design is acceptable."

Later, in a phone interview, McMorrow said he was surprised to learn family members of those who died in the attack weren't offended by the use of the crescent.

"It's like figuring swastikas into a Holocaust memorial," he said.

But the families of the passengers and crew of Flight 93 don't have a problem with the design.

"I think people are reading too much into it," said Kenneth Nacke, whose brother, Louis, died in the crash. "It doesn't affect my decision on it in any way. I'm still happy with it."

Gordon Felt, whose brother, Edward, died in the crash, called the focus on the crescent an "unfortunate distraction," from the fourth anniversary memorial service tomorrow at the crash site.
...
The jurors recognized there could be some backlash because of the crescent. That's why, in their recommendations, they wrote: "Consider the interpretation and impact of words within the context of this event. The crescent should be referred to as 'the circle or arc,' or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography."

But Rabiah Ahmed, a spokeswoman with the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington, D.C., said there is no one official symbol associated with Islam.

She acknowledges that the crescent has come to represent the religion. But, she continued, it does not hold the same significance, for example, as the cross does to Christianity.

Ahmed says she can understand why the crescent would be associated with Islam, which has 7 million followers in the United States and more than a billion worldwide.

"People forget Muslims died [in the attacks], too," Ahmed said. "Islam, as a religion itself, was hijacked on 9/11."

Self-proclaimed bishop Ron McRae, a street evangelist based in Somerset County, has vowed to fight the use of the crescent symbol in the Flight 93 memorial.

He believes the architects used it purposely.

"It's a memorial to the terrorists," McRae said. "It's not a memorial to the innocent Americans who died there."

But Tom Sokolowski, the director of the Andy Warhol Museum, and one of the Stage II jury members, said that claim is "asinine."

"If the families of the 40 people who were killed felt this was an appropriate symbol to honor their loved ones, then I think he is delusional," he said. "To take this small-minded, bigoted view is disgusting and repellent."

AAAGGGHHH!

Destination: apoplexy.

I just posted this down in the other flight 93 memorial thread..

D.Edgren posted earlier about the qibla for the time of the crash.

The crescent itself is tilted on that axis, like an arrowhead facing mecca.

The qibla (the direction you face when you pray a muslim prayer) in America is generally north-east, like the orientation of the memorial, so I thought it was worth a look.

If you complete the imaginary arc of the circle that is missing from the crescent, the midpoint of that arc through the midpoint of the peak of the crescent shoots towards Mecca.

Probably just a coincidence, though.

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it an arc. We can call it a circle. We can call it the edge of the bowl. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

"We have no objection to calling it something else."

He's already called it a crescent. He named it a crescent. Why would he believe people should interpret it otherwise?

Atlasshrugged,

Thanks for the information on ad buying. it really is so much Greek to me. It seems like a lot more than just how many eyeballs will see the ad.

I should clarify - D edgrens post is here

He calculated the qibla at the time of the crash a bit over 55 degrees from the north.

If the crescent is an arrowhead, the shaft is a line from the peak of the arc to the midpoint of the (imaginary) arc that completes the circle,

BOING!

An arrow to Mecca.

Again, probably just a coincidence, like the color and the shape and the name, etc.

As long as we continue to be cowards,afraid of the ACLU,afraid of the multiculturalism crowd ,afraid of the CAIR,this is exactly what we deserve,and worse...

#145 Gretchen

The only course of action that would mobilze the designers to change this is angry letters from "Muslims" claiming it symbolizes Islam as a violent religion and desecrates the crescent. Is maple syrup halal?

That's what I was getting at in my post #55, but you said it better.

#54 liberality

9/11 was a very conservative disaster. It gave war-mongers a defined enemy (which you still managed to fuck up, but whatever, all those A-rabs look the same anyway).

Obviously you mean Bin Laden. He was somewhat limited around, say, 1993. It's a mass movement of jihadis circling the globe now. I'm sure you don't remember the 1993 WTC, 1996 Khobar Towers, 1998 embassies, or 2000 Cole. Furthermore, I'm positive you've never bothered to read his 1996 and 1998 fatwas where he tried to mobilize "all Muslims" to his calling using the Koran and hadith.
Here's your "defined enemy" - moron.
I'd 'define' it as everywhere jihadi movements exist. That excludes the Arctic and Antarctic.

Charles, can't we get some better trolls? Doesn't anyone on the Left have a passable knowledge of recent, modern history? I'm not asking for much, just the last decade or so.

Paul Murdoch,

This crescent is as bad as if you used a damn bullseye for the memorial.
No matter what your motive is in using this symbol, to commemorate the atrocities of Flight 93 in this way is completely unacceptable. It.will.not.stand.

Re post 169,

I think this thing faces Mecca too.
The Lat/Long of the Flight 93 crash site is 40.055 degrees N, 78.901 degrees W, which converts to 40 degrees 3' 18" N and 78 degrees 54' 4" W.

The orientation of the believer to Mecca is the Qibla. There are several Quibla calculators on the web. Using one of them, and inputting the above coordinates along with local time of 10:06 a.m. EDT, which was the time of impact, the Qibla direction from the impact point to Mecca is 55 degrees 11' 42" (Mecca, BTW, is 10,963 miles away).

If this monument just happens to be oriented on that axis, hell will hath no fury, etc. Nobody should rest until NPS rescinds the contract. I don't believe that there would be a senator or representative who could take the heat of public (less, of course, CAIR and the other usual suspects) outrage over something that would be revealed as undermining the very purpose of creating the memorial in the first place.

Anybody have any info on the orientation of the design?

D. Edgren

#54 liberality:
Guess what,troll? I agree with you. Katrina IS a liberal disaster. In that when it happened, the liberal mayor and governor did nothing, and the media blamed Bush. Oh, and know-nothing troll douchebags came to LGF to show how stupid they are. Go back to fire island, fruit.

#54 liberality

Here is a little reading material for you.

The Kingfish is dead

In the end, It wont be 'conservative values' that will have beaten the Democrats, it wasnt the "Reagan revolution" and it wont be the Bush family.

It will be the lawyers.

Katrina marks the end of the Democratic party in its current incarnation. Some day you will be able to measure time as "Before Katrina" and "After Katrina". The last great Democrat capital of the old south has fallen to an outside force, a force of lawyers and officials that will make life hell for the political machine that has run the state and city for generations, there is no "win" here, only a "hold" and in the end they will have to give up. Louisiana in 20 years time will look like a smaller leaner version of Texas, friendly to business with low taxes and Democrats will only exist in force at the edge of college campuses, just as they do today in the once great Democrat stronghold of Texas.

30 years ago, Texas was Louisiana. Today Texas is an economic force that is capable of the highest growth out of any state in the union. An economy so strong that its taken to supporting 150,000 people from Louisiana in the blink of an eye. A large number of those people will go on to stay in Texas after the waters have been removed from New Orleans but all will be impacted by what they saw in Texas, and some will begin to expect it of their own government when they finally return to Louisiana.

The Louisiana Democratic machine - is Dead.

Charles, This is worth checking out.

Anybody have any info on the orientation of the design?

See posts 175 and 169. Do you know any G.I.S. experts? Can we find out what way the crescent is oriented?

Thanks and happy Danniversary,

Canadhimmis

Hi everyone:
I think the artists must have known what they were doing. I think they thought that no one would notice. (except the moslems)
If they were trying to decieve us the drawing would have been from an lower angle or with different coloring so it wouldn't look so obvious.
The name is more of a give-a-way. "Crescent of Embrace" They want us to embrace islam or they want islam to embrace us.
There's only three family members there.

"It's powerful but understated," said Kiki Homer, whose brother, LeRoy W. Homer Jr., was co-pilot on the plane that crashed after passengers rebelled against terrorist hijackers. "It's beautifully simple.
"My breath is taken away."

Esther Heymann, whose daughter, Elizabeth Wainio, died in the crash, agreed.

"The understatement speaks to the profoundness of what occurred here," she said.

The two that are quoted both think the memorial is "understated". A talking point from one of the artists probably when they smooth talked them with their artistic pontification. Look at the way they word everything.

The idea of the Crescent of Embrace, Murdoch said, is to be a gesture of healing and bonding.

From the memorial's website:

Through the gesture of embrace, a curving landform formally designates the edge of the Bowl. The crescent of embrace enhances the form and monumental scale of the Bowl to commemorate the heroic actions of the passengers and crew of Flight 93.

They use the word gesture a lot, as in, 'We have to make a gesture of peace to the moslems.' They just make it up as they go along. I went to their website last night and it's all artistic mumbo jumbo.
I agree with the posters that the red represents blood and the fall, just around now is when the leaves are turning red. Those are the sort of things that an artist is supposed to know. Things like symbolism.
I would think a circle represents healing and bonding better than a sickle soaked with blood.
Actually has anyone brought up the red sickle yet. Maybe their commie moslem sympathizers.
And then there's the people that awarded this first prize.
Flight93memorialproject.org
I also think it's signifiacant that only three families were represented, seemingly by only one family member. Where were the rest of them. Perhaps they've seen it and stayed away.

I'm glad the families don't have a problem with it.

But unfortunately, this was still a National event and this is intended as a National Memorial. There is a clear case that the memorial includes a red crescent, and this is an insult to a great many.

While the families should certainly have some input, this is not something that is there's alone. If it's viewed as an insult by a majority, we are still talking public land and those concerns should also be addressed.

Given that the immediate families have been granted tax maintained private areas, exclusive on-site housing, etc... it's easy to understand why they might like this design.

Personally, I have an ancestor who fell at the Little Bighorn. I tried to build a cabin at the monument once, just to use for private remembrance, and they threatened to forcibly remove me.

Some of this sensitivity for 9-11 families, IMHO, is just getting a bit overboard. There were a lot of victims of 9/11.... the entire country was a victim. Honors and priveleges are fine, but I don't have anyone footing the bill for my families past contributions.

#164 zombie

"It's a memorial to the terrorists," McRae said. "It's not a memorial to the innocent Americans who died there."

But Tom Sokolowski, the director of the Andy Warhol Museum, and one of the Stage II jury members, said that claim is "asinine."

"If the families of the 40 people who were killed felt this was an appropriate symbol to honor their loved ones, then I think he is delusional," he said. "To take this small-minded, bigoted view is disgusting and repellent."

Gee, it's so SMALL - MINDED and BIGOTED (Ding!) to object to memorializing MASS MURDERERS. How COULD we be so narrow-minded?

I don't know about y'all, but I'm just CRUSHED by this guy's rebuke.

HO-kay. Time to line these fuckers up against the wall and drill them. With dum-dum bullets.

Site map of the memorial

I compared Google satellite maps to the pdf of the proposed memorial; both are in typical north/south east/west format.

In north america the qibla is to the North East,
and the memorial's crescent of trees also has a northeast cant.

Perfect measuring might show some differences,
but it makes a fair match to the qibla.

If you draw a straight line from the center point of an arc that completes the circle, through the center peak of the red crescent, it runs NE about 55-57 degrees from the north.

I feel all tin-foily... but I don't like the coincidence even if it is one.

Here's a cropped jpeg of the site plan oriented with north at the top.

#164 zombie

Well if it makes you feel any better consider the fact that actual Islamists will be threatened by the the combination of an Islamic symbol with peaceful language and intent "Crescent of Embrace" is going to strike them as blasphamy.

The "crescent of Islam" is not meant as an embrace, to them, that I'm sure of.

#183 bluemerle
>>55-57 degrees from the north

Too many coincidences... I wouldn't be surprised if it points toward Mecca, too.

omg it's too late for France!

I'll say this again just in case no one is listening, this artist knows what he is putting in, and he knows the symboligy of it all. I am 99.9% sure of this largely because I know what I'm putting into a drawing, if I get a request for an unknonw thing, I research it..

I'll say this again just in case no one is listening, this artist knows what he is putting in, and he knows the symboligy of it all. I am 99.9% sure of this largely because I know what I'm putting into a drawing, if I get a request for an unknonw thing, I research it..

Symboligy? The language use here is on a par w/ the thinking in this thread. Truly off the deep end.

JustMyView (#189),

The main thing seems to be:

Al Qaeda argues that it's terror is a tool of Islamic awakening in the world. Al Qaeda was responsible for bringing down Flight 93. A huge public memorial is to be built. Presently the memorial plan is for a large crescent. The crescent is the only common symbol of Islam. Looking at the design one is reminded of the flags of Muslim countries. The architect not only designed this, but called it 'The Crescent of Embrace'. A lot of people have suggested the design be slightly modified, and that it is totally innappropriate to let it go ahead in its present form. Additionally it apparently points to Mecca. Some think the design was a subversive twist and others accept it may be coincidence. I hope this summary helped. What is JustYourView on all this?

#190 Dom

Thanks for your comments. I understand the basis of the preceding comments. My own view, though, is that the people who are upset about this are making something out of nothing.

# 190 Dom

Which direction (in degrees) is the crescent 'pointing' ? I assume by 'pointing', you mean where is the gap in the crescent aimed.

RE # 192

I see up above that somebody is saying the crescent is 'pointing' northeast and that's towards Mecca. That's piss-poor geography - Mecca would be to the southeast from anyplace in PA.

#193 Mike C.

Somebody -- zombie, I think -- said this isn't oriented toward Mecca. Think it was in yesterday's thread.

JustMyView,

You're welcome. That wasn't how you put it first time, you took a poorly phrased post and smeared everyone with it.

9/11 was internationally significant and anything related to it is of interest. Personally I think if the memorial is worth doing it's worth doing properly, and it is an outrage in this instance that the design based on a crescent got passed. They were aware of the objection (Pastorius, #27).

My impression is you don't especially give a shit about the memorial, which is fair enough; it is one of those nice things you can ignore if you like. Others are pushing to take a clear stand with this memorial, to ensure it commemorates the loss of life without adding pro-Islamic connotations.

Some might think it's making something out of nothing, but the fact remains that this is still public land and a National memorial. Close to 200,000 acres when all is said and done. Typically, public comment and input is welcome concerning said matters.

But here we have the architect making this kind of comment...

Murdoch did say they have no intentions of changing the design.

Murdoch might be the winning architect, but the last I've heard he has no authority over the National Parks. If enough criticism is heard, I don't think Murdoch is the final word on what actually transpires at the site.

That comment along with his response that everyone can just call it a circle, even though he named it a crescent... really makes it sound like he does have an agenda.

# 194 JustMyView

Well, if it's 'aimed' somehow (how do you aim a crescent ?) to the NE, that sure as hell is a fact. Mecca's one hell of a lot closer to the equator than PA, so the most direct shot would be to the SE. If you want to go the long way around, you would aim NW. NE won't do any good at all.

Mike C (#193),

Undecided...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Zombie's post

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
bluemerle's post

# 198 Dom

Undecided ? I know there's continental drift, but I doubt if the direction from the crash site to Mecca changes according to the date and time of day. From anywhere in PA, Mecca is to the southeast.

Murdoch, the architect, who calls this the Crescent of Embrace...

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it an arc. We can call it a circle. We can call it the edge of the bowl. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

"We have no objection to calling it something else."

Even though he names it a crescent.

Or let's look at his comments another way concerning the Swastika of Understanding by it's chief architect.

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it a twisted cross. We can call it a good luck emblem. We can call it the Crux Dissimulata. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

"We have no objection to calling it something else."

It would still be a swastika in the end.

#197 Mike C.

I didn't quite follow your comment. Not sure whether you were agreeing w/ what I said or not. I don't have any expertise on this matter. Was just quoting zombie, who seems to be paying a lot of attention to this issue.

You're right about the idea that it doesn't really seem feasible to "aim" a crescent. I took "aim" in this context to mean the direction in which the opening in the crescent is oriented, which, appears to me to be roughly SW.

But, again, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'm not sure what others meant by "aim." Was just calling attention to zombie's comment.

Mike C,

I used the calculator linked by D. Edgren. Says North East.

It is North East.

Explained

# 201 JustMyView

I thought you were saying it was somehow 'aimed' to the northeast and not towards Mecca, and I was agreeing with the fact that being 'aimed' to the notheast (or southwest, if you want to go the long way around the globe) would not be towards Mecca.

# 202 Dom

I'm pretty sure that's wrong, but give me a bit to check. One thing I do know is that the direction from any geographical location does not change, because those little direction arrows in hotel rooms in islamic countries are always well fixed in place. Ignoring movements over geological time and the increadibaly tiny variations due to tidal effects, any two points on earth can be considered to have a fixed relationship to each other.

# 203 Dom

Ah, I see what they are getting at ! That's very interesting. I wonder if that's considered correct ? After all, "line of sight" is a straight line, not a curved line. A straight line (through the earth) between anyplace in PA and Mecca is definitely southeast. For example, Philly is at 40:00:25 N, 75:08:05 W. Mecca is at 21:27:00 N, 39:49:00 E. Clearly to the southeast. Here's more than ample cause for a schism !

Mike C (#205),

Don't discount that if you wander round the globe enough times in a straight rhumb line you will probably encounter Mecca, or someplace indistinguishable from Mecca. They can work it out if you give them enough time, starting North East. So that one proved true, about the crescent facing Qibla.

#206 Dom

They can work it out if you give them enough time, starting North East. So that one proved true, about the crescent facing Qibla.

Is that correct? Even if Qibla is NE, do we know that the crescent is "facing" that way. As Mike pointed out, it's not clear what it means for a crescent to be "facing" something. What is the "face" of the crescent? The opening or the arc?

Just askin'.

#199 Mike C.

From anywhere in PA, Mecca is to the southeast.

You may be thinking (wrongly) in terms of a flat world map (Cartesian coordinates). But globally, think of a geometric plane which intesects points A (PA) and B (Mecca) on surface of sphere. The intersection of plane and sphere is a circle --one of many possible circles. Apply one more constraint. Require plane to pass thru center of sphere. Result is called a great circle. Shortest path from A to B is along THAT circle. Hope that helps.

If Bluemerle's calculation is reliable, a straight line from the hollow through the bulge of the crescent points North East, and if our online Qibla calculators and Muslim scholars are not lying that is the direction of Qibla. Amazingly I found that out by using a popular search engine, and simply reading the posts under discussion. ;-)

# 208 abolitionist

No, I'm not confused. Mecca is roughly 20 degrees south and 35 degrees east of Philly. I know full well you can't travel there in a straight line, since that would be through the earth. And I know that a great circle is the shortest distance along the surface of a sphere. The question I find intersting is that of "facing" Mecca. If you stand anywhere in PA and face northeast, you are NOT facing Mecca. To travel to Mecca in the shortest distance from PA you WILL start out traveling NE, but that's not the same thing as "facing."

JustMyView,

I can't help noticing I've been grouchy lately, nothing personal.

Mike C,

If you're facing North East, you're facing a line to Mecca, is what they're saying. The fact that if you travel the line it stops being North East is beside the point. Subject to my own understanding.

What a horrible concept to honor our dead.

Here is my take.
[Link: cdrsalamander.blogspot.com...]

I was going to write a retort to those people who still think this is a bogus thing to get upset about, but it turned into a full blown rant.

And I didn't want to post it here, so I posted it on my blog. I'm really offended. This thing has set me off like never before. I don't want a damn red crescent anywhere on this land. I hate the damned thing. I frigging hate it. If you want to know why, you can read it there. I won't bother posting it here because I really blew my top...but I had to frigging say it already. I'm so mad as hell about this. I'm really, really mad. You think zombie is mad? Take that and put it to the power of ten effing million and square that. That's how mad I am.

Somebody has to set the damned record straight. I'm sick and tired of pussy footing around. Anyone who hasn't read the koran already should shut the fuck up already and go and read the fucking book before you start saying that this symbol isn't fucking offensive. And if you think I just blew my lid here, I'm only getting started on how pissed off I got in my little piece. I frigging hate this symbol. I hate it and I abhor everything it stands for and I'm tired and I'm sick of hearing excuses made for it.

Red Crescent Outrage - Islamophobia. Oh and yeah, strong language ahead. But hey! I'm only talking about the "Religion of Peace". Somehow, they seem to fit.

#212 Dom

I can't help noticing I've been grouchy lately, nothing personal.

That's very nice of you. I think I'm going to have to check out. Unlike Mike, I'm not in Kuwait and should be sleeping.

FWIW, I agree w/ you and others who have said that it's important to consider how the design will be interpreted. I just don't think it's very likely that this fairly generic shape will be interpreted as an Islamic symbol by many people--in part because most people won't be looking at it from above and in part because crescents are not rare. If we devoted a little time to it, I'm sure we could find lots of them in all kinds of designs.

You might want to look again at the design. I actually think it could be quite a lovely site.

But, I'm sure there'll be more to say about this in the future, as there are two levels of approval (National Park Service and Department of the Interior) to go through.

Nice chatting w/ you.

#205 Mike C.

For example, Philly is at 40:00:25 N, 75:08:05 W. Mecca is at 21:27:00 N, 39:49:00 E.

#210 Mike C.
Mecca is roughly 20 degrees south and 35 115 (=75+40) degrees east of Philly.

/hope that helps (trusting your #s)

# 216 abolitionist

Uh, yeah, that would be a better number, wouldn't it ? I looked up the numbers on a locator website, so I assume they're roughly correct. I just forgot I had locations on both sides of the prime meridian. Doh !

JustMyView (#215),

I've said elsewhere the images I've seen are beautiful, but the design needs modifications. You couldn't care less, so we know where we differ. Where we agree, ftr, is not to jump the gun with assumptions about what the architect had in mind.

Been so so.

Oh my the lll are upset when critized:

But Tom Sokolowski, the director of the Andy Warhol Museum, and one of the Stage II jury members, said that claim is "asinine."

"If the families of the 40 people who were killed felt this was an appropriate symbol to honor their loved ones, then I think he is delusional," he said. "To take this small-minded, bigoted view is disgusting and repellent."

[Link: www.post-gazette.com...]

So lll. Smear your opponent and don't directly answer the arguement.

Of course cair puts their plugged nickel in:

She acknowledges that the crescent has come to represent the religion. But, she continued, it does not hold the same significance, for example, as the cross does to Christianity.

[Link: www.post-gazette.com...]

Then why is it on the flags of so many islamic countries?

#200 maximus delirious

Murdoch, the architect, who calls this the Crescent of Embrace...

So the creator of this abomination admits that it is a crescent, the symbol of Isalm.

He further calls it the Crescent of Embrace.

Well, seems to me when one feels the warm embrace of the crescent (Islam) one usually loses their head ala Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, etc.

And this is not a new, modern phenomenon but rather something the Muslims have been practicing since this so-called religion of peace has been around.

Again, I am madder than hell about this and I'm not going to take this PC crap anymore. I will rail about this to any and all about what the LLL, PC crowd and the Islamists in the United States do to try to obscure the truth.

As the Australian government told their resident Muslims population, If you don't like our democracy and want to establish Sharia law you can get the f**k out and form your vile and debased country somewhere else.

#34 Carolyn

Ever heard of Roundup®

Roundup Herbicide, and all of it's offshoots (Roundup UltraMax, R2U, etc.) are all glyphosate-based herbicides. They are designed to kill broadleaf weeds, not trees or shrubs. Mind you, enough glyphosate will kill almost anything, but for trees, I would suggest 2, 4-D, a herbicide found in LowVol6 and GrazOn. When sprayed in the field on a windy day, I've seen the drift kill trees-live oaks and elms-2 miles away.

Sorry, got to get some of that folksy wisdom from down on the farm out there.

54 Liberality

"There is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. '

Now I understand you, may we call "Shorty"?
"Stumpy"? "Half-pint"?

Did you read that on CodePink sign?

Actually, #215 JustMyView, many people will in fact see the memorial from above, flying over a very oft-used major flight path. The memorial is on an extremely grand scale, most likely in order to be better seen from the air. Since Shanksville is essentially in Nowheresville, probably far more people will see this from above than on the ground.

This design is inappropriate regardless of the designers' intentions (which I personally think were intentional, albeit from a completely wrong-headed, soft-and-squishy, multi-culti place).

This is a repeat of my previous post:

Outrageous. Dementia. Abysmal stupidity. Sickening.

Is this a memorial to the 4 Muslims who killed Americans?

Express your outrage. Call Chris Martin, who is in charge of the memorial.

412-952-6332

Calling the Superintendent of the Flight 93 National Memorial at (814) 443-4557 is useless.

DON'T JUST POUND YOU COMPUTER.
DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE.
CALL !
CALL !

Liberality,

Please, please keep posting. I'm printing out your rants to illustrate to friends, family, whomever what a textbook case study of current liberal disfunctionality looks like.

Though, some time in the future, I would recommend you get to a therapist. You seem to have a lot of racial, sexual and cognitive issues that I fear will take you decades to resolve. If ever.

Science and higher education are the second things to go in a Wahhabist state - the first being other religions. I don't know whether they face east in matter where they are or adjust it depending on the devotee's cardinal location.
The designers of the "memorial" however are quite aware of geometry and are quite capable of positioning their design for maximum "significance." The entire entry was certainly judged for all the "nuances." The complete narrative fo each design element was most certainly submitted with the visual design. That's probably the source for all the explanations of the trees, the signifance of the red...the black stones. The major sly message to the judging panel was probably "Wink, wInk.."

I think it was Terp Mole (sorry - still getting the coffee in - memory will be better in an hour) who was talking about the choice of black stone, and some of the other design peculiarities. This entire presentation is a huge Pagan monument. Everything about it - emotes something pagan - nature worship, sacred circles - that's evoking the oak-worshipping Druids and Tribal rituals of Native Americans, not to mention the Celts. The designers, given their backgrounds, are fully cognizant of these things and have certainly used them before in other designs.

Doubt should be the first reaction when the immediate defense is "ALL the families (in attendance) liked it." The Left ALWAYS says that and later we find out that there were two families there, no one else could make it and no one really got a view of what it was about. Yep, consensus.

The entire thing is an abomination.

Todd Beamer asked the telephone operator to pray Psalm 23 with him to strengthen himself and those with him to do what they had to do. They did not want to die, but to our eternal gratitude, they didn't want to allow the hijackers to use their plane to murder innocents.

"The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside still waters,
he restores my soul.
He guides me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me,
in the presence of my enemies,
you anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
Surely, goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever."

Then, Todd Breamer, said, "Let's Roll."

I am an Architect and I say Screw this fucking inappropriate and disgusting memorial proposal!

I know how to fix this.

Just put a big red circle around it and then add a bar across the crescent.

Like a "Do not enter" sign.

Murdoch, the architect, who calls this the Crescent of Embrace...

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it an arc. We can call it a circle. We can call it the edge of the bowl. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

Is this the edge of the bowl in which the frog was slowly boiled to death?

The arhitect and committee: Cynical,smirky, LLL-think. Laughing all the way to get their lattes. How they pulled a fast one on the neocons and the people of the USA

It continues the mockery of the islam-fascists to take the most wonderous invention the jet airplane and use that to wreck another pair of unbelievably sophistcated and complex of mankind's contructions. As if to say, "see, you guys in the West aresn't so smart. We turned your inventions and bldgs into shit and into weapons against you!"
Same with this design, "see you revere these passengers that fought back agaist Islam. We are smarter than you and turn the reverence into an Islamic memorial on Your gravesite and in Your country....
Same with the use of the internet, same with the use of the tv stations. They invent nothing but use our inventions aganst us.
the same mockery, the same cynicism.

The design company is from Los Angeles. Remember: The ACLU made Los Angeles county remove a cross from their county seal.

[Link: www.brentmorrison.com...]

This is ridiculous, they honor the killers not the heroes. This will not stand.

Not having seen this before or read all the posts, the only thing I can say is zombie did one hell-of-an-incredible-job.

jrdroll (#219),

The crescent associated with Islam is the lunar crescent, which is wider in the middle and tapers to points on each end. The crescent in the Murdochs' design maintains a steady thickness all the way around.

Looks to me like it tapers to points on each end.

The journalist hasn't been very adventurous, she hasn't got any political or general public response whatsoever, and she seems to think all the families have been consulted, which they haven't. There were just a select few on the panel.

If the looney liberal left isn't defeated, the radical islamist will simply rededicate this to the 9/11 terrorist when they take over the world.

email your complaints to:

info@paulmurdocharchitects.com

#225 Jed

Thanks! I called the guy, got his voice mail. Politely told him it was highly offensive and an insult to the Flight 93 heroes and to the country in general.

Some years ago, Nike (I think) produced a sneaker that had a symbol on the back that looked almost exactly like the arabic words for Allah. Muslims blew a gasket. Nike apologized, saying they didn't know how it happened. Regardless, they pulled that line of sneakers off the market so they wouldn't offend anyone.

Two lessons here:

1. The symbol did look like the words for Allah, so it was apparent that someone had obviously been trying to pull a fast one, and

2. If people found the symbol highly offensive, then accept that fact and change it.

My point is, the red crescent (BTW, the Muslim equivalent to our Red Cross is their Red Crescent organization) along with the grove of trees located in the gap of the crescent is way too similar to the Muslim star and crescent to be a purely accidental coincidence. And it sure as hell is highly offensive to a lot of observers.

This will be a national monument to the Flight 93 heroes.

Change it.

#27 Pastorius

On your page you quote the PR, "He said that the crescent as a pure form (without intellectual context) was seen as an embacing image."

Above you say that "He said they used the crescent as a pure form, whose meaning is to them an embrace."

The problem is, as architects, they know damn well that a crescent is a building facade that follows an arc and rarely exceeds a half circle (because if it did it would be called circular).

Also, architects are well educated and can usually afford a dictionary. They should know that crescent is a phase of the moon, or a shaped like it.

How ironic that they deliberately made a design based upon the birds-eye view of the muslim stylized crescent, claiming it to be "embracing"...

Any chance theses ass-hats truely believe that ROP shiite and that the poor muslims world-wide were the real victims of 9-11?

#232 big L

Well said.

The crescent and star in the gap shows up on the national flags of Algeria, Pakistan, Malaysia and Turkey. It's hard to believe that the architects not only created a crescent, but also planted a small grove of trees smack dab where the star is usually positioned.

I shy away from conspiracy theories, but this is just too weird a coincidence to dismiss as an accident.

I think we should drop these Blue Falcon "artist" in the Islamic Republic of Iran and seen how they enjoy the "embrace of the crescent."

If they survive the experience of a "tolerant" Islamic regime they might reconsiderd their choice of emblems.

#7 Idiot Liberal

Democrats are failures as they have all single-handedly ruined the black family in America with their will-defeating welfare schemes that keep people corralled and poor.

All that's missing is a giant star.

It would be nice if someone besides Rev McCrae is quoted in the press as opposed to this. He is fairly well-known in the area for sponsoring continuing protests at the Casa Nova, a gay bar in/near Jennerstown, IIRC. I went to a counter-protest of him a while back, to support the gay bar. They were besieged day & nightr by this Rev, and later the KKK. They eventually had to shut down. Driving home, we had a police escort, which then sped off, and a concrete block was thrown at the bus. This after shots were fired at the bar, patrons were followed home (including a good friend of mine). It was an UGLY scene.

He also calls Mardi Gras revelers "drunken Catholic whoremongers." It doesn't matter their intent, it doesn't even matter what some/all of the families think. This was an attack on America.

How come the crescent isn't an Islamic symbol now, but it was when Jonny Hart, "BC" comic illustratot, had the outhouse strip a few years back?

There are some famous public art pieces where the artist mocks his donors, the Lipchitz "Government of the People" which depicts a ringlet of naked contortionists in a daisy chain, who, when seen in silhouette, are a clenched fist raised against the tower of Philadelpia City Hall, or the five story Picasso "Portrait of a Woman" which is really an image of a baboon.

I don't think the crescent image is an intentional slam. Reading the article about the Murdocks' intent I think they are simply oblivious to the Islamic resonance. Their crescent is the soppy, touchy feely goo of the wind chime tinkling tree hugger. The maple cresent more than likely represents their own symbology rather than something so evident as a reference to Islam.

But that reference does occur to you and me and the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. For that reason it should be rejected.

My letter to Paul Murdoch:

Dear Mr. Murdoch,

I'm sure that in designing a memorial for the brave heroes of Flight 93, you did not mean to evoke a symbol if Islam, the ideology that inspired the murder of these brave Americans. However, that is exactly what your "crescent of embrace" does. Even if you say, "That's not what it's MEANT to symbolize," people will see it that way--Including other Islamics like Mohammad Atta and Bin Laden. They will see the symbol of their hateful, supremacist ideology worked into the scene of their greatest crime (so far). Unintentionally or not, your design insults the memory of the Flight 93 heroes just as surely as would a giant swastika at the site of Auschwitz.

Please, please withdraw your design. We need something that not only memorializes the heroes but shows us their courage and inspires us to believe that we, too, will not cower in the face of terror, but will stand tall and fight back like they did, covering ourselves with glory and honor.

#241 Tinker

Don't forget Mauritania...

My letter to my congressional delegation--

Words fail me at the to describe the revulsion, and disgust I felt when I saw the planned design for the Flight 93 memorial.

[Link: www.flight93memorialproject.org...]

The winning submission is one of the most insulting things that I have ever seen in my life. A central component is a crescent of what appear to be red maples. “Sacred Ground” is centered at the opening of the crescent.

A red crescent with a star centered at opening is the symbol of Islam.

9/11 was committed in the name of Islam.

To include these elements in this memorial is an outrage beyond description. It is so obvious and beyond the pale of propriety that it is impossible for the submitter (I cannot call such a foul person an artist or designer) not to have intentionally incorporate these elements in the proposed desecration of sacred ground.

This memorial must not be built. The memorial commission should be disbanded. Any group that would select this grotesque display has neither the sensitivity or artist sensibilities to be involved in the process.

A fitting memorial would honor the lives of the passengers and crew of Flight 93. And also celebrate the spirit of the passengers as they strove to reclaim the aircraft and save untold numbers of lives on the ground.

Sincerely

243 Free Speech..

That was right on the mark. I attended WSU in Detroit and still drive through the city each morning on my way to work. It is truly a disgrace the way the once proud city has slipped into 3rd world status.

Every layer of City and County Government has been completely dominated by the DemocRAT machine my entire lifetime. Every program and initiative to rebuild the city has failed, prompting the ignorant civic leaders to pump even more and more cash into them. Every homeless person, abandoned house, and illiterate high schooler is blamed on the nearest Republican.

Its obvious to me after seeing it first hand that the Democrat machine needs the permanent underclass to stay destitute, ignorant, and desperate. They are easier to lead around that way, and comprise the most loyal voting bloc, even though their political loyalty enslaves them.

I participated on the memorial design submission because I felt very moved to do so. On September 11, 2001, I was teaching a class at a local college, about half an hour from the Flight 93 crash site. Surprisingly, my design contained no crescents. Coincidently, it was not selected as a finalist either. Although I thought my design was very good, I understand that everyone who participated by submitting designs probably felt their design was the best. It was a cathartic experience to put so much thought and effort into the design, and moving beyond words to visit the unadulterated crash site. I encourage everyone to visit the site before any memorial is constructed.

I like the chapel with the wind chimes in the selected design. The truth of the matter is it was the lease ugly of the finalists if we can get past the inclusion of a crescent in the design. Truthfully, I don't think there is any hidden meaning in this crescent, but I do think it is a cruel twist of irony that should somehow be corrected.

#247 baldy

11/21/2003: CAIR Goes Ballistic Over B.C., Dr. Laura

LGF is such a great reference manual on Islam.

Don't overthink artists, people. They aren't that deep.

See Maia's comments halfway down on this post. . .

I'm a Small Minded Bigot

What's the sentence for Destruction of a National Park/Monument/Watzit? Oh, and Conspiracy to the former?

/just wondering

It's not MY geography. That's the way they pray from North America - to the north east.

Whether to pray towards the North East or South East from points in North America is actually a controversy within the faith. Also here, and excerpt from here:

If you look at a standard flat map of the world, you notice that New York is north of the 40th parallel, while Mecca is south of the 22nd parallel. Therefore the local qibla must be approximately east by southeast, right? Wrong. The computer and most Muslim authorities agree that the qibla in North America is to the northeast, ranging from 56.3 degrees for Washington, D.C., to 23.7 degrees for Los Angeles.

Geography notwithstanding, the qibla is to the North East in Penn. (see recent example of qibla calculated for

They knew the crescent would cause a backlash:

"The jurors recognized there could be some backlash because of the crescent. That's why, in their recommendations, they wrote: "Consider the interpretation and impact of words within the context of this event. The crescent should be referred to as 'the circle or arc,' or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography."
[Link: www.post-gazette.com...]

So the question becomes, if they knew this crescent represented Islam why did they still use it?!

#193 - Mike C - Google gible from North America.

or see #257.

#216

See #257. The most common qibla is to the north east. If you don't like the geography, take it up with the Islamic faith.

[Link: www.heathenworld.com...]

I think I know where this architect got his idea from!

I don't understand how anyone could find this design appropriate after seeing several of the schematic representations. This design would be OK with me if it were for anything OTHER than a memorial to those killed in the name of Islam.

And as for the crescent being "part of architectural vocabulary" where no one group has ownership of it, that is an irrelevant half-truth. A crescent, of course, is a shape. So is a cross, so is a swastika. But they are SYMBOLS that have significant meaning to multiple groups of people. To state otherwise is dishonest and deceiving.

If this were the design for a park in Detroit or San Diego, fine. But it is not. The folks who hate us wouldn't notice that. But you can bet they will be laughing their asses off when they see that a memorial to those killed by Islamic terrorists is also a symbol of Islam.

Ok, here's a picture.

This site allows you to calculate the quibla from the US and provides a little diagram of the qibla direction.

I overlayed that picture on the memorial site.

Shoot an arrow on the bow of the crescent and it follows the path of the qibla.

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261

Awww come on shipmate. If you are going to steal my links, at least give credit..... ;)

[Link: cdrsalamander.blogspot.com...]

about #263

If that is just an accident, in the words of someone cooler than me, that is really freaky, man.

Given the other islamic associations, its unfortunate that the angle of the from the crash site crescent is canted directly on the qibla.

Why not Two giant columns of clear miracle age plastic diverging at 20 degrees from perpendicular forming the letter 'V'. Embedded in the plastic (like an incect in a belt buckle) , up to 1.3 billion skulls.

#45 Pastorius

Maybe a different approach:

"Why even bother constructing this ? It will
be for naught. Within 6 months it will be destroyed.
You must understand the simple logic of what I'm
saying, right ?".

**Disclaimer**

Not that I would advocate destroying great artwork...that would be illegal. Just sayin'.

Don't just post here, write to the designer at...

paul@paulmurdocharchitects.com

This is what I wrote:

I know that with art nothing is random. All is planned.

Inspired? yes... I can see that. Even in a back handed way I can see how this red crescent can act as a perverse reminder of the genesis for the fanaticism that has killed so many Americans.

Perhaps this will be sour reminder, invoking anger. Perhaps this is your desire.

Another wrote to you how this crescent may be analogous to a swastika design being incorporated into an Auschwitz memorial. I concur with this thought.

As it stands now, however, the crescent looms over those who should be honored. The talons of the crescent hover ominously around the entire memorial, mocking the dead and evoking grief for friend and family.

The American heroes that lost their lives on flight 93 should be honored by having triumphed over the crescent.

I would rather see a design that aroused deep rumblings of inspiration. A design that honored those that first fought back against the crescent, that overcame the crescent.

Do we know anything about the architect who designed it and whether he/she has an unsavory agenda?

gee, do ya think ? :-)

Beamer is rolling in his grave.

How about a SNDT ? Toast to Todd Beamer ?
I don't drink but would make an exception in this case.

And then the famous last words: "Are you guys ready? Let's roll."

If this (link) doesn't bring a tear to your eye...

I emailed them. I think everyone should.

I'm still outraged. This really sent me over the frigging edge. I am so sick and tired of this PC BS.

Here is an azimuthal equidistant map of (most of) the world centered on the Flight 93 site. The green line is the great circle route to Mecca.

The direction of the memorial is ambiguous, but if you consider it determined by the "opening", it does indeed point to Mecca.

Save the pic to a local file and then open with photoshop etc.,rotate
image so the "crescent" can be viewed "properly". Very disturbing.

#270 Banagor,

I'm beyond outraged. I didn't think I could get any more angry. Guess I was wrong.

And tommorow is the fourth anniversary of 9-11. It is time that we force the rest of the country to understand that while we may not want to be at war with Islam, Islam is at war with us. The Muslims in Lodi told us that. Actions speak louder than words, and they practically screamed their support of terrorism.