LGF

Breaking: Possible SAM Attack Against US Plane

Sat, Sep 17, 2005 at 5:27:09 pm PDT

I’ve just received a credible tip from an LGF reader that an America West flight out of New York was fired upon by a surface to air missile yesterday, and that the pilot and passengers witnessed it and are now being questioned by the FAA and FBI.

That’s the extent of the information I currently have, and please note: right now this is completely unverified.

UPDATE at 9/17/05 9:16:00 pm:

Michelle Malkin has more; there was some kind of incident.

I just got off the phone with Phil Gee, associate manager of media relations at America West, who promptly returned my late evening call. Here’s what he told me:

On Sept. 15 (Thursday), America West Flight 17 took off from JFK Airport at 6:05pm EDT. The captain “took the initiative,” says Gee, and reported an “irregularity” to air traffic control as the plane was ascending. The plane continued to Phoenix and landed safely at 8:55pm MST. FBI and other authorities met and interviewed all of the crew and passengers on the plane. The investigation is continuing.

Gee would not say whether the pilot or other crew or passengers reported witnessing a missile firing.

“Nothing is confirmed,” Gee said.

UPDATE at 9/18/05 8:08:47 am:

An aviation official tells Michelle the incident was a false alarm:

The sighting was reported near Colt’s Neck, NJ, which is a major route south out of NY. FAA set up a small temporary flight restriction around the area while checking radar files. Turned out to be nothing more than birds, and [a] big game of “telephone.”

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342 comments

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1 P. Aaron  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:28:12pm

Wow!

2 Pious Agnostic  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:28:49pm

Very scary.

3 oldtimer  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:28:53pm

A wake-up that's needed.

4 P. Aaron  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:29:02pm

That's the 1st time I've ever been 1st here! I hope the reports are false though.

5 byteboy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:29:41pm

Shades of Flight 800.

6 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:29:56pm

If it's unverified, how do you judge its credibility?

(Anyone we know? Governmental source?)

7 Kalle (kafir forever)  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:30:41pm

If true, who would want to kill random passengers like that? there's got to be a reason that we all need to embrace, right?

8 will_not_back_down  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:30:44pm

Ya and I just gone done reading and posting my review on "The West's Last Chance: Will We win the Clash of Civilizations?".

I hope this is something else and not true.

9 Pious Agnostic  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:31:20pm

Doggone those Budhists!

10 gill  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:31:48pm

I'm very intrigued as to why it hasn't made it into the msm...

Makes you wonder how much of this type of thing goes on and stays unreported.

11 fsjeffrey  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:31:48pm

Let's stay on top of this one.

Awful if true.

12 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:32:06pm

#5,

Look, up in the sky, could it be ...a moonbat?

*shakes head*

13 Gmac  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:32:44pm

Where was it flying when fired on? US airspace? Out of NY means possibly oversea's to a LOT of places. Could you be a bit more specific please? TIA

14 MAV  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:33:09pm

This if it is verified will greatly speed up the Governments decision on the MANPADS countermeasures system for commercial airlines...

15 USA  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:33:54pm

OT


Senior officials in Louisiana's emergency planning agency already were awaiting trial over allegations stemming from a federal investigation into waste, mismanagement and missing funds when Hurricane Katrina struck.
And federal auditors are still trying to track as much as $60 million in unaccounted for funds that were funneled to the state from the Federal Emergency Management Agency dating back to 1998.
In March, FEMA demanded that Louisiana repay $30.4 million to the federal government.

Linky

16 Pious Agnostic  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:35:01pm

Regardless of their utility or value, MANPADS is possibly the worst name they could have come up with.

"Manpads make me feel fresh...even when I'm not the target of a missile attack."

17 will_not_back_down  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:38:00pm

In New York State? or the city there of? Laguardia or JFK? If either of the later I dont' think they would be able to keep it quiet this long, was it someplace else in New York state?

18 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:38:06pm

There's only one organization capable of shooting down a civilian airliner with a SAM...the Mossad

/channeling Juan Cole

19 MAV  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:38:33pm
20 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:39:05pm

I invoke the 48 hour rule.

21 Cartman  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:39:49pm

How the hell did it miss?

22 JohnAnnArbor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:40:38pm

Which airport?

23 Bob  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:40:41pm

#21

How the hell did it miss?


Because it was made in Russia.

24 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:40:46pm

#15,

Where have I read that before... I can recall it as though it were yesterday...

25 Cartman  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:41:43pm

#16 Pious

LOL!

26 Banagor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:42:11pm

#21 Cartman,

Remember that Al Qaeda missed an Israeli plane a few years ago with a rocket launcher in Africa.

27 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:42:13pm

So are we going to get a thread for watching the Hitch-Galloway debate on C-SPAN2 (beginning in about 15 min.)?

28 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:42:22pm

MANPADS?

I see a Seinfeld episode: Brotex...

29 mbruce  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:42:37pm

There was also a train derailment on the South Side of Chi-town today,no clues as yet.
If the MSM is sitting on this missile thing I will not be surprised.

30 will_not_back_down  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:42:39pm

This is the story on CNN from LAST year of the two men arrested during a sting operation and it was Albany New York

LInk

31 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:43:34pm

"New York" are we saying the city or the state? If it's NYC, America West flies out of Newark and JFK. JFK is located on Jamaica Bay and there is a lot of wetlands to its immediate south---a good place for someone with a shoulder-fired SAM to hide.

32 ibu guru  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:43:41pm

#15 -
also OT-

Money Earmarked for Evacuation Redirected

...Congress in 1997 to set aside $500,000 for FEMA to create "a comprehensive analysis and plan of all evacuation alternatives for the New Orleans metropolitan area."

The $500,000 that Congress appropriated for the evacuation plan went to a commission that studied future options for the 24-mile bridge over Lake Pontchartrain

But once Lousianans directed the bucks to the state's bridge commission, all trace of the money is queered -- nobody knows for sure where it went. Except that whoever got FEMA's money to produce an evacuation plan never produced such a plan.

33 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:45:17pm

31 Paul

I read somewhere for a SAM to be most effective it would have to be on takeoff or landing. Would the wetlands be close enough?

34 han_solo  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:46:33pm

Not sure I belive that this could be kept quiet for more than a few short hours and not 24 or more.

35 Missy The Cat  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:47:26pm

MANPADS? Is someone talking about my butt again? Sheeesh...

36 Moonbat_One  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:47:46pm

Thank god it missed.

37 TenRing  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:48:06pm

#33 got milk

I read somewhere for a SAM to be most effective it would have to be on takeoff or landing. Would the wetlands be close enough?

More than ideal - except for getaway potential. Even in a fast boat.

38 vickie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:48:53pm

If it turns out to be the case I for one am going to pay close attention to it. Compare and contrast with another little "incident" that I think WAS an attack on one of our planes. Thought it from the beginning and think it now. Lets just see.

39 AlexM  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:49:37pm

I have a hard time believing that a surface to air missle fired anywhere near JFK or Newark could have gone unreported in the news.

40 Beagle  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:50:27pm

#21 Cartman

How the hell did it miss?


Could be the IR seeker head was old or damaged. My friend in the US Navy said the sidewinder missles would track him when he walked nearby. That would be weird.

41 AlexM  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:50:56pm

The landing approach to JFK is often several miles out to sea.

42 Terps  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:51:01pm

#13,

America West only flies U.S., Canada, Mexico, and Costa Rica.

43 Beagle  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:51:23pm

#35 Missy the Cat

MANPADS? Is someone talking about my butt again? Sheeesh...


Dayam, that's funny.

44 bonz  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:51:23pm

#35 Missy The Cat

MANPADS? Is someone talking about my butt again? Sheeesh...

Warning...Warning...Do Not Touch With 10 Foot Pole

45 foreign devil  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:52:20pm

Another attempt like TWA Flight 800?

[Link: www.twa800.com...]

46 TenRing  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:52:28pm

I, for one, am skeptical.

It just doesn't compute. You just couldn't keep something like that quiet. Even if the jet immediately landed (which it couldn't, at takeoff weight) there would be ten minutes or so for folks aboard to reach out and touch someone.

A whole plane full of cell phones, passengers see a 'missile', and nobody is blasting it across cable tv?

Naaah.

47 Beagle  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:53:03pm

#44 bonz

Warning...Warning...Do Not Touch With 10 Foot Pole


Not unless she's like a hundred feet tall anyway.

/now I've done it

48 Self Hating Muslim  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:53:13pm

#3

I think I know what you were trying to say, but you might want to think harder about how you say it next time...

It really isn't a good thing.

49 Patriccio  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:53:20pm

Wonderful. Now Bush will be blamed for an errant missle aimed at an airliner. I'll bet Howard Dean is preping the conspiracy theory as we speak.

50 ibu guru  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:54:49pm

Hoping it's false, fearing it's true. Always suspicious of every refinery explosion, train derailment, hazmat "incident," and the official denial, "This has nothing to do with terrorism."

It sure as h--- does. Suspicion, fear, scepticism -- all consequences of terrorism. Lousy way to live.

The cause of it all has to be abolished.

51 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:55:26pm

#33 got milk?

Absolutely, JFK is right on Jamaica Bay and the wetlands are on its south and west boundary. Most of the bay is part of Gateway National Recreation Area, there are wetlands and a number of marshy islands in the Bay that are accessable only by boat.

52 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:56:41pm

#45,

Paging Pierre Salinger...

53 han_solo  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:56:41pm

Just checked, america west only has 3 flights out of New York (they flight out of JFK). They have one to Las Vegas, one to Phoenix, and one to LAX. They also flight from Newark to Phoenix and Vegas.

View their flight route maps here:
[Link: www.americawest.com...]

54 TenRing  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:57:10pm

Charles,

Is there a way to un-post this thread?

In this day and age, if someone writes a note to go to the bathroom it's news. Even with a biased media, there is no way this could happen and remain unremarked.

55 My 2 Cents  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:57:36pm

#21. Missing is easy. These things are not as trivial to operate as you might guess, and if the system was not properly maintained, it would be even less likely to work properly.

56 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:58:27pm

It's not terrorists. It's distraught stockholders of Northwest and Delta...

/I know, bad joke

57 fraxinus americana  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:58:37pm

# 30 I remember it well as i live under an hour from Albany.
The suspects are Yasin Aref, a 34-year-old Iraqi who is an imam -- or prayer leader -- at the Masjid As-Salam mosque in Albany, New York, and the mosque's founder, Mohammed Hossain, 49, a U.S. citizen and native of Bangladesh who owns a pizzeria in the city.
This was well before the ACLU put their ambulance chasing noses into National security!

58 Rockdad  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:59:40pm

#18 Paul
Mossad could only be authorized to do this by the MAN!

/Rove alert-moonbat calling

59 TenRing  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:59:47pm
Even with a biased media, there is no way this could happen and remain unremarked.

Especially with a biased media, I should have said. Can you imagine the reaction if men in black started demanding media censorship?

It ain't happening.

60 Charles  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 3:59:51pm

TenRing: if I discover that there's nothing to the story, I will of course post an update and make that very clear. Right now, I'm inclined to believe my tipster.

61 Merovign  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:00:07pm

I'm smelling "plausible but fasle" here.

Somebody may have done a google and panicked without checking date of article, could also be just pure BS trolling.

62 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:00:26pm

Now on C-SPAN2: Christopher hitchens debates George Galloway on the Iraq war...

63 sandbox  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:00:40pm

Tenring,
Of course I am skeptical like you for the same reasons you stated.

However, maybe Charles has more info on the way.

64 vickie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:00:46pm

FD: Yeah yeah..Like 800.

Might be an "Emily Latella" *Gilda Radner..Sat Night Live* Story..ie "Nevermind". Cant imagine such a thing happening and it wasnt reported?

65 Geepers  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:00:54pm

han_solo (#53),

Thanks for the link.

Some good old time LGF fact checking.

66 Merovign  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:01:45pm

Could also be a "suspected by witnesses" thing that no one is taking seriously / the FAA has reason to doubt.

Reporter calls FAA, FAA says "naaaw, just some anxious passengers."

67 jrdroll  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:02:45pm

BOOK TV HITCHENS V GALLOWAY

68 vickie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:02:46pm

If it turns out to be true..Get that Nelson DeMille Book and read it. Now I have to go look up the Title..

69 Charles  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:03:11pm

This is not the result of a Google search. And the person who emailed did not do so anonymously.

70 will_not_back_down  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:03:21pm

#62 Dar ul Harb

Now if those don't beat all. I've got 3 CSPAN channesl and none of them have Hitch on. Hmmm. Glad I watched it live on Wed here.

71 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:03:44pm

I think it's entirely in the realm of possibility. A stinger type system isn't that big and could easily be smuggled in. Or even fired from a boat. If true, it's a good thing the operator was incompetent.

72 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:04:52pm

At 1:00 am one day many years back, I happened to stumble across Art Bell. Callers were calling in and saying there was a fire on the Meir. (they had CB's and picked up the call for help.Yes this is possible based on the position of the Meir in orbit at the time.) That next morning I watched the news, listened to the radio and there was nothing on normal media. So I thought it was a bunch of nut cases.

5 days later the news reported it. That day they announced the space shuttle would be launching and docking with the Meir. What took so long?

Maybe they did see something. Maybe it was just a laser. (still a felony)

73 Bob  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:05:35pm

#62

Thank you, Dar. I had completely forgotten about it.

74 Rockdad  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:06:28pm

#70
I've got it cspan2- west coast.

75 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:06:31pm

If the only evidence is the eyewitness accounts of pilots, passengers and people on the ground, I'd bet against any conclusion this actually happened. There were several dozen eyewitnesses on the ground who said they saw missle trails leading to up TWA 800, but not enough to be taken seriously.

Who knows what happened with TWA 800 or this report, but I believe there is always a propensity to debunk reports of terrorists attacks unless the evidence is overwhelming and undeniable.

76 Merovign  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:06:33pm

#71 Orson Buggy

It's also true that the stinger-types, especially the Russian ones, could be old enough to be faulty and just "fly away."


Well, Charles has reason to take it seriously, I guess we'll have to wait and see. Maybe he could give us a rating:

1-5 reliability of witness
1-5 number of sources
1-5 plausibility of description

If it happened, I'm glad it missed.

77 bonz  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:07:53pm

If a plane were taking off or landing then the time on target for the missle would have been seconds. Passengers and crew on the target aircraft wouldn't have seen it. Passengers and crew on other planes might have seen it but just by coincidence. Airport equipment would have picked it up no matter how brief the flight of the missle lasted.

78 vickie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:08:08pm

Damn: Watching a very good program on PBS now. Katerina Relief. Incredible music so far. Jazz and Gospel already been on. Next Bette Midler and all Star Jazz Orchestra. "Is That All There Is"..

Hope I can catch Hitchens and Galloway on C Span when and if they replay it. Hitchens? They will replay it.

79 Ol' flyboy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:08:23pm

The high bypass turbofan engines used in today's airliners do not have near the heat signiture as a military jet or turbine powered helicopter. That is not to say that that a shoulder fired missile would always fail but the launch point of the missile would have to be much more critical.

Also, the largest aircraft flown by America West is the 757. I feel that if this was a terrorist fired missile they would have selected a much larger target such as a 747 or Airbus 330/340 just for the effect.

80 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:08:30pm

was the tipster ON the plane?

81 will_not_back_down  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:09:21pm

#74 Rockdad

Ya I got it now CSPAN2, first time I flipped by wasnt' there. Thanks

82 sandbox  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:09:35pm

75 aka will
But there were no Flight 800 witnesses from the plane for obvious reasosn. Not the case here. Time of day would be intresting to know.

83 braindirt  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:10:06pm

This is what happens when we don't secure our borders. If true, Bush will have a lot to answer for.
Thank God the guy was a lousy aim.

84 Protagonist  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:11:13pm

Way to go, Charles! First a link from Drudge himself, then perhaps an LGF exclusive.

I'll trust your reporting over the AP/Reuters/NYT any day.

85 Merovign  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:11:43pm

#77 bonz

On the other hand, badguys might have picked a location farther away, hoping to evade capture and/or get a better "crash site" (i.e. big city buildings).

#79 Ol' flyboy

Given the organizational skill of the enemy, it may have been a "first plane to come along" thing. No need to look at chedules when it's not an "inside job," just know flight patterns.

86 Rockdad  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:12:03pm

#81 wnbd
Much better than the mp3 I heard the other day.

87 AlexM  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:13:14pm

If a missle-firing is suspected, you can be sure that the authorities would be in no hurry to get in front of the cameras and discuss it until they were sure. The disruption to air-traffic (and the already collapsing airlines) would be immediate and widespread.

You can also be sure that they'd ask the potential witnesses to keep it quiet pending at least some kind of confirmation.

I hope it's not true, but if is true this thread is a bit of history--Charles would have outdrudged Drudge.

88 flushing_kenny  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:16:26pm

Bad tip. Nothing on the news out here in NYC on any channel about said attack. If so, somebody would've covered it immeadiately as the airports would shut down.

89 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:19:04pm

Remember, American Airlines Flight 587, which crashed on 11/12/01, took off from JFK and flew over Jamaica Bay before its tail mysteriously fell off.

90 Cartman  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:20:28pm

MANPADS...for that feeling of manly confidence and assurance on Monday morning at the office, after a Sunday of NFL debauchery – numerous brewskis, shots of Jag, atomic wings and 5-alarm chili. MANPADS – your last line of defense, fellas.

91 ElCapitanAmerica  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:20:49pm

You guys shouldn't post this without verifying it. This does'nt seem likely at all (thankfully).

92 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:21:01pm

OT

Hitchens just put the smack-down on Galloway!

93 Protagonist  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:21:31pm

Boy a big news night for me! Here in Richmond, there's a missing person story about a Taylor Behl, and Virginia Commonwealth University Freshman student. The networks and cable news channels have picked up on this.

Who was the last person Behl was seen with? Why, none other than my sister-in-law's former crazy boyfriend, who was diagnosed with Bipolar Schizophernia and broke up with my sister-in-law after doing jail time for abusing said sister-in-law!

I and my wife will talk with her sister and convince her to make the appropriate contact with the authorities.

94 zombie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:21:51pm

I just did a quick search for this topic on

Lexis-Nexis
GoogleNews
GoogleBlogs
Google
Yahoo

...grand total of all results: zilch.

If this really did happen, Charles, you truly will have been the first person to mention it.

So far there's a lot of skepticism here, which -- combined with a complete inability to do any independent verification (see search results above) -- leads to frustration on the part of the ever-curious minions.

We are hungry for more details! Feed us!

95 Charles  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:22:13pm

Let's not count our exclusives before they're hatched -- as I hope I made clear in my post, this is simply a tip right now, and unverified.

96 Miles Caughey  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:23:35pm

I heard yesterday on a local Nashville talk radio station a man clamed that a barge had broken free and beat against the levee for over 24 hours befor it broke. He said he was on his roof watching it. It broke a 10 foot hole in the levee which was just renovated. He named the company that owned the barge and said they towed it back into the lake befor they reported it. He said he watched the breach for 3 or 4 days grow to 300 ft without anyone working on it. This is the third man who I heard claimed to have witness a barge break through the levee. I haven't heard any of this on the MSM. This would negate the entire blame about the levee system being neglected. So, all things are pausible. Most passengers wouldn't have noticed the missle if it didn't explode near the aircraft. IF this was true their would be a couple more bankrupt airlines!

97 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:26:28pm

92 OT - CTP


This is the 1st time I ever saw Galloway, he reminds me of Shultz - Hogans Heros.

98 Ol' flyboy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:26:44pm

#89 Paul

American flight 587 crash was caused by improper back and forth rudder movements by the first officer who was flying at the time. These rudder movements caused the vertical stabilizer (tail) mounts to fail. The design of the A300 rudder actuator system was a contributing factor.

99 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:27:13pm

Galloway's doing nothing but ad hominem. He's already lost (as we know).

100 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:28:34pm

#97 got milk?

Yes, he looks like him and he knowss nut-tink!

101 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:29:02pm

OT,

Michael Ashcroft?

Heh.

102 locutus  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:29:41pm
Callers were calling in and saying there was a fire on the Meir.

I didn't know the Israelis had a space station...

(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist)

I think you meant the 'Mir'.

103 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:29:55pm

Galloway's implying that Saddam was the choice of the Iraqi people...

104 freedomsound  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:30:43pm

I still wonder about American Airlines Flight 587 that crashed in Queens in Nov 2001. Tailfins don't usually just fall off like that, turbulence or not.

105 Mike McDaniel  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:32:32pm

I'm surprised it's taken this long...not that it matters. High-bypass turbofans have a pretty low IR signature - and man-portable SAMs have both a small envelope and small warheads. We're talking hand grenade, not 16-inch shell.

106 lockednloaded  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:32:38pm

come on guys, everyone of you is totally wigging out over nothing, I hate it when people misinterperet and distort things like this. These are obviously "missiles of embrace", and need to be understood that these are merely peaceful symbols that transmit peace and understanding, and above all embrace.

107 GengisKahn  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:32:59pm

Genreally lurking in the shadows, but I just turned C-SPAN on and feel compelled to comment.

Galloway is an a**. The guy is really clueless, but he part that bothers me is the large number "Americans" in the crowd who are cheering him on.

108 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:33:06pm

Saddam would have done better to hire Galloway as a spokesman than Baghdad Bob.

109 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:35:35pm

Interesting that Galloway is getting more applause than Hitchens did during his opening statement.

110 E.T.  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:35:38pm

#104 -- I’ve also been suspicious of that one myself ….

111 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:36:07pm

102 locutus yes mir thanks

I still think the person that gave Charles this tip SAW it, or at least knew the perosn that did.

112 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:37:51pm

#97 got milk?

He reminds me of a fat, clueless Michael Cain.

113 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:41:22pm

Watching C-Span. Galloway is a nasty, ranting piece of work. Dare I say, Hitleresque?

114 Gringo  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:41:28pm

I, for one, am inclined to trust
Charles on this one because he knows the source and wouldn't mention it if he didn't trust said source. Apart from that, Charles has repeatedly stressed that it is only a tip and unproven as yet.
Charles, did I mention that the name "Charles" was my father's name, my grandfather's name, my middle name and my son's name, although his is the Spanish version, Carlos.

115 kynna  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:43:28pm

#104

I still wonder about American Airlines Flight 587 that crashed in Queens in Nov 2001. Tailfins don't usually just fall off like that, turbulence or not.

They do if they're made by Airbus. The French have a sub-standard product and the co-pilot was scape-goated to protect all the airlines who use Airbus.

Come to think of it, America West's fleet is almost completely Airbus.

That's why I don't fly them any more.

I hope this is a mistake. If not, I hope they find the perps because I already hate to fly.

116 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:44:05pm

Most MANPADS are heat seekers. #687 did not get hit with a missile.

Charles was very responsible in how he posted it. Trust and verify. I would expect if he is wrong he will even say so.

This is called credibility.

117 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:44:52pm

On the Hitchens/Galloway debate:

Is it me, or are they showing the audience when they support Galloway, but not when they support Hitchens?

118 AlexM  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:45:22pm

If airplane passengers and pilots said they saw a missle launch, it doesn't seem unlikely that it would take over 24 hours to make the news, especially in NY.

To state the obvious, these folks are now out of the area. If the media heard these rumors and even had access to witnesses, it's not something they'd run with without offical confirmation.

119 locutus  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:46:22pm

After the flight 800 incident, I recall half-believing the missile theory. Of course, back then, it was Clinton's FBI and Clinton's Pentagon and Clinton's NTSB, and since I wasn't really a big fan of Billary's versions of these agencies (especially after Ruby Ridge and Waco), I let my anti-Clinton prejudices color my view of the available evidence.

Which was, of course, wrong. This is what the liberal moonbats do. This is why Bush has been blamed with everything from the 9/11 attacks to purposely steering a category five hurricane into a city full of minority Kerry voters.

The real question here, concerning a possible SAM attack on a stateside airliner, is why it hasn't happened before now, and with greater frequency.

120 paint-right  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:47:07pm

#113 paul

Hitler is who came to mind ...eerie. I imagine this is just what he sounded like to Germans, yelling and red in the face.

We always see Hitler in black and white and with the accent. But to them he had no accent. Just his horrid rhetoric.

121 Radian  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:47:32pm

104

Airbus. Need I say more..

The french should stick to bread. Renault quality is job 212

122 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:48:19pm

Galloway continues to do anything except talk about Iraq.

123 Ward Cleaver  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:48:52pm

I'm taping the debate right now. Has a recording of the Hanson vs. Zsa Zsa debate shown up somewhere.

124 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:49:49pm

#120,

Especially when he talks about "neo-con rot seeping into their souls"...

125 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:51:23pm

Galloway really getting booed when he blamed 9/11 on the U.S.!

126 Cartman  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:51:49pm

#96 Miles

I heard yesterday on a local Nashville talk radio station a man clamed that a barge had broken free and beat against the levee for over 24 hours befor it broke. He said he was on his roof watching it. It broke a 10 foot hole in the levee which was just renovated.

I heard on another talk station that the inscription USS Bush was clearly visible on the bow.

/sarc

127 AlexM  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:52:22pm

More breaking news: C-Span is airing footage of what appears to be a landing of freakish brain-devouring aliens from outer space.

Hold on--sorry. It's just George Galloway giving a speech to a pack of howling moonbats.

128 paint-right  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:54:12pm

Galloway is like a kid on the playground who warned us that if we didn't give the bullies our lunch money that they would get real mad. See? Now they're mad and they're going to hurt us more and more. Right.

God bless the brave souls willing to stand up to the bullies.

Remember Rumsfeld saying "Drain the swamp" ?

Exactly.

129 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:54:30pm

Galloway: "Drain the swamp" of the Middle East by abandoning Israel, and stop propping up Arab dictators who ...hate Israel?

Such is the logic of the moonbat.

130 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:55:26pm

You mean Timothy McVeigh rose from the dead with
a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher? wow.

/lib

All kidding aside - if this is true - OMG.

131 flick  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:56:30pm

#96 Miles Caughey:

A barge did break one of the levees. It's been on the news. Kinda hard to find, most of the reporting has emphasized the people.

The levee system was neglected, also. They have sunk up to 3 feet in places due to soil subsidence, which is a big problem in N.O. And they were never fixed.

132 AlexM  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:56:40pm

Any swamp-draining needs to start with that mushy wasteland between Galloway's ears.

133 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:56:57pm

#15

OMG. I'm surprised the LA Times would even print that. Where's the anti-Bush slant?

134 Megan  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:57:15pm

I lost the 2004 election.
I am criticized by the Swift Boat Vets.
I threw a tantrum about using Wade's hairbrush when one of my servants couldn't find mine.
Conservatives make fun of me.
I'm married to Teresa Heinz, an ugly, loudmouth hag.

But that doesn't mean I can't feel comfortable and fresh during my time of the month. Plus, they pass the international test. Jaques Chirac, Gerhard Shroder, Kofi Annan, Vladimir Putin, and Saddam Hussein, they all wear Manpads. Manpads are the greatest, and that's an issue I won't flip-flop on.

135 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:57:41pm

#125 Dar ul Harb

Galloway got his nuts handed to him on a stick! LOL It was a grand performance by Hitch.

136 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 4:59:20pm

Did I just see Atlas clapping in the audience?

137 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:00:01pm

"This is masochism, but it's being offered to you by sadists."
--Hitch, on Galloway's capitulation to Al Qaeda

138 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:01:16pm

#132 AlexM

Where would you put the poo water from that? You'd have to get Hazmat involved.

139 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:03:39pm

Oh, here it comes...

HALLIBURTON!

*drinks*

140 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:04:15pm

Galloway is losing his composure big time...

141 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:05:01pm

"Damn you and all your works!"
--Galloway, to Hitch

"I hate Republicans and all they stand for."
--Howie Dean

142 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:05:09pm

Does Galloway have any level of debate other than shout?

143 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:05:23pm

What a biased question from the moderator!

144 The Drizzle  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:05:39pm

Probably yet another attack by those dangerous christians. Lets ban that fucking pledge, now!

145 zombie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:06:12pm
an America West flight out of New York was fired upon by a surface to air missile yesterday, and that the pilot and passengers witnessed it and are now being questioned by the FAA and FBI

#53 han_solo
Just checked, america west only has 3 flights out of New York (they flight out of JFK). They have one to Las Vegas, one to Phoenix, and one to LAX. They also flight from Newark to Phoenix and Vegas.

#118 AlexM
If airplane passengers and pilots said they saw a missle launch, it doesn't seem unlikely that it would take over 24 hours to make the news, especially in NY.

To state the obvious, these folks are now out of the area.

Put these three comments together and what we get is: the plane left New York, then was fired on (supposedly), then kept going to its destination, since if it had turned around then news of it would have reached the NY media. And where did it go? Either Las Vegas, Phoenix, or LA. And if the FBI is questioning these witnesses, then it is likely being done out of the FBI offices in those cities.

If anyone has the cojones to really pursue this, then they could call up/hang around in front of the FBI offices in LV/Phoenix/LA and see if you can get some kind of response out of an FBI employee as to what's going on.

Another, completely long-shot, avenue for investigation is to post notices on craigslist for those cities (LV, Phoenix, LA), asking if anyone knows anyone who may have been on that flight, and saw something.

I lack those cojones.

146 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:06:58pm

#142 Paul

He spews too.

147 will_not_back_down  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:07:04pm

#136 christheprofessor

Ya noticed her earlier also. She was here a bit ago.

148 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:08:20pm

#147 will_not_back_down

Did she confirm that was her?

149 will_not_back_down  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:10:08pm

#148 christheprofessor

No dont think so but looked like her to me.

150 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:10:38pm

Ouch! Hitchens just slammed Colin Powell... Gotta give him credit, he shoots from the hip...

151 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:11:16pm

"The most overrated man in the world. And I don't care. ...And you can't make me."
--Hitch, on former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell

152 bonz  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:13:12pm

#145 zombie
If my plane takes fire the last thing I do is shrug it off and fly across the country. "Ah well, another day at the office." Incident is reported, flight is diverted nearby.

153 fraxinus americana  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:14:16pm

#145 Zombie
I lack those cojones.
(snicker)
Is this a disclaimer ;)

154 Radian  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:15:02pm

152

Any delays or diversions of AW flights during the time period?

155 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:15:55pm

I think Galloway is arguing for John Kerry's "gloabl test".

156 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:16:23pm

"global test"

pimf

157 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:17:59pm

"On the road to Damascus..."
--Galloway, on Hitch's conversion on the removal of Hussein

"Be careful."
-Hitch

158 zombie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:18:54pm
#153 fraxinus americana

Zombies -- of either gender -- don't have functioning reproductive organs.

#152 bonz
#145 zombie
If my plane takes fire the last thing I do is shrug it off and fly across the country. "Ah well, another day at the office." Incident is reported, flight is diverted nearby.

Good point. But if so, why has no one on-board leaked this to the ravenous NY media, if they're still in the area?

159 Hannitized  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:19:36pm

#104 freedomsound

I still wonder about American Airlines Flight 587 that crashed in Queens in Nov 2001. Tailfins don't usually just fall off like that, turbulence or not.

Older 737's had this problem also. US Air in PA and United in CO (not sure of the years of occurrence)

160 JP  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:20:12pm

An RPG could have been fired at the plane if it was low and slow. The passengers would have seen the signature from the firing of the weapon.

161 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:20:50pm

Hitchens says he changed his mind about the 1991 Gulf War (which he opposed) after talking to the Kurds, who told him that U.S. intervention (and the resulting no-fly zone enforcement) saved their lives...

162 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:22:34pm

Galloway's rich in talking about U.S. "vulture capitalists" "stealing the Iraqi people's money"...

163 Bubbaman  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:22:47pm

Even if this turns out to be true, we have Bush's ROP to thank for this. I know, in honor of the near-miss we should give the Paleonazis more $$$.

164 Radian  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:22:49pm

Pilot would have declared over a monitored frequency.

Somebody would have talked?

I would give this 48 hrs and chase factslike , delays, diversions, and cancels out of that airport. An incident like that would probably shut down the whole hub.

165 Catttt  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:23:17pm

Galloway - evil American venture capitalists, blah blah blah.

God, how I hate his speaking style - almost more than what he actually says.

Do you think he does tanning beds, or maybe golfs - his bald pate is very tan. (Not that I care.)

166 RoughRider  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:25:46pm

I never should have clicked on this thread... gotta fly tomorrow.

167 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:26:36pm

Oh yeah, Galloway's "Iraqi resistance" which seems to favor blowing up Shiite civilians...

168 PSGInfinity  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:28:08pm

#104 freedomsound

Yes, tailfins can fall off Airbus jets (A330, I think). These beasts, in general, are hideously complicated and weirdness happens.

That said, there's an easily detectable undercurrent of suspicion out there. To listen to them, several planes have been attacked by missiles down through the years. Compounding matters is the immense pressure authorities feel not to make rash claims pertaining to the airline industry. The conspiracists incorporate this reticence into their theories.

169 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:28:08pm

#160 JP

An RPG could have been fired at the plane if it was low and slow.

RPGs have a very minimal smoke trail(nearly invisible)and only have a few hundred yard range. Trust me on this one.

170 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:28:13pm

Hitch is getting under his skin bigtime!

171 jimboster  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:29:52pm

Maybe no one knew what it was at the time. Say for instance, after the flight lands, Passenger #4 insists on talking to someone in power about the "flash of light" he saw stream by the
jet after it took off. Passenger #9 says he saw it, too. The powers that be start interviewing other passengers and crew who confirm/deny what happened.

172 Vickie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:30:25pm

OT: If you wanna hear SOMETHIN..turn on your PBS Station to Live at the Lincoln Center (if it plays later in your area). This is a Benefit Concert for NO. Guy playing "Closer Walk with Thee" on Trumpet, like I never heard before. It was incredible. Lordy it was beyond excellent. I'm shaking at the emotion of it. Geeze.

173 Radian  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:31:00pm

737 had a valve design issue that could cause failure.

174 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:32:17pm

Who is this moderator? What a biased set of questions she gives to Hitch...

175 Ward Cleaver  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:32:21pm

#172 Vickie

Was that "guy" Wynton Marsalis? He's from NO.

176 bonz  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:33:46pm

#165 Cattt

Do you think he does tanning beds, or maybe golfs - his bald pate is very tan. (Not that I care.)

He has a very nice summer home in Portugal where he tans and enjoys the time away from his constituency in lower class East London- Bethnal Green. This guy could be a Dem. Senator

177 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:34:20pm

Gen. Honore has a son in Fallujah.

(didn't know that)

178 PSGInfinity  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:36:35pm

#151 Dar ul Harb

"The most overrated man in the world. And I don't care. ...And you can't make me."
--Hitch, on former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell


YESS! I've been thinking just that for some time, hence the verbatim quote...

179 Vickie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:37:47pm

Ward: No. I don't think it was Winton. Ive NEVER heard anything like it. It was beyond Soulful. ..Im not any kind of expert on this..but I'm wrung out from the emotion of it..It was incredible. I could tell that guy was some amazing musician as well.

180 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:37:58pm

I believe that things happen at/near planes that we don't hear about all the time. I have two friends who are flight attendants. They say MANY things happen, from air-rage on up, that no one hears about. This though is in a different category from a crazed/terrorist passenger. It will be cheap to deal with anti-SAM measures BEFORE a plane is shot down. I still have my doubts about this, but would not be surprised if it were true.

181 kafir  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:38:01pm

Galloway is playing to his homies. Baruch must be one of many moonbat-central locations.

Galloway just blasted Mrs Bush.

Oy.

182 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:38:02pm

Galloway, you can talk about U.S. foreign policy. But don't you talk about U.S. domestic issues... and you don't slam Barbara Bush!

183 fraxinus americana  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:39:13pm

#158 Zombie
Forgive me. I forgot you eat/bite humans to reproduce.

184 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:41:00pm

"I'm on C-SPAN and they can hear me all right."
--Hitch, to hecklers

185 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:41:06pm

#180 Baldy

It will be cheap to deal with anti-SAM measures BEFORE a plane is shot down.

Actually it's about $1mil plus per airplane.

186 kafir  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:41:08pm

Hitchens is not dealing well with the audience, but he is destroying Galloway.

187 Haiku  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:41:29pm

OT
Jane Fonda just cancelled her anti-war tour with Galloway. She claims that it's because of her recent hip operation but I suspect she re-considered because of Galloway's anti-semtic views. Maybe she's not so stupid after all.
Can someone tell me exactly what she did during the Vietnam war to aid our enemies. I wasn't born then so I never really understood what the big commotion about Jane Fonda was. It's really hard to get unbiased information from the msm.

188 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:44:01pm

Hitch just slapped the moderator... Good man, the biased beyotch needed it...

189 LanceKates  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:44:24pm

#185 reaganite

what do you think happened?

190 Haiku  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:45:28pm

#174
Ammy Goodman is the moderator. She's a radio host from Pacifica, a notorious anti-American and anti-Israel radio station. She has appeared as a speaker at Islamic conferences and honored Rachel Corrie at an Ism ceremony. of course she's biased!

191 Ann  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:46:09pm

#187 Haiku Here you go.

Undermining, at least, and proud to do it.

Her Dad served in WWII, so I guess that embarassed her.

192 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:46:13pm

#189 LanceKates

what do you think happened?

I don't have the slightest clue!

193 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:48:18pm

Kerry, IINM, slipped up last year and said Fl 800 was a terror attack. Flight 800 (Cahill, WorldNetDaily) Kerry said it twice. I would have been more inclined to believe Gore though. For some reason, I thought Gore said it...

194 kafir  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:48:46pm

Was that a threat I just heard from Galloway? If the US and its friend Israel...

195 AlexM  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:49:08pm

To ammend my post #118.

Many of the passengers in question would have made connections at the plane's destination and would now be scattered all over the west coast, slowing any investigation considerably (considering also that a large portion would be vacation and business travelers without local addresses).

If only a handful of passengers saw, I can't believe that they'd have said nothing to the others over the course of a transcontinental flight. Authorities would have a giant headache sorting through all of those who "heard" it as a rumor in order to track down the actual eye-witness(es).

If it was an inbound flight, however, I tend to be more skeptical. America West doesn't have connecting flights from its east-coast hubs, so most or all would now be in New York and finding the witnesses would be easier. Also, it's unlikelier that non-witnesses would have heard anything in the short time between landing and deboarding.

A clue, Charles? A departing or arriving flight?

196 bonz  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:49:11pm

#187 Haiku
look here: [Link: www.1stcavmedic.com...]

197 LanceKates  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:49:15pm

#192 reaganite

I know that here in OKC, at Tinker AFB, a few guys supposedly of Middle Eastern decent in appearance, were seen aiming shoulder type weapon at airplanes taking off.

this was in mid july.

ever since then, there's been heavy activity around Tinker (My sister-in-law lives near Tinker and tell me about it ever since I told her about the incident)

I'd hate to think they were 'practicing'

198 PSGInfinity  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:50:15pm

#187 Haiku

Let me throw some water on this one RIGHT NOW. Here's the snopes article on the subject. (un)Happy Reading!

199 JP  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:50:35pm

#169 reaganite

Yeah I know, been there done that too. All ya see is the dust kicked up when it launches, but a passenger with an eagle eye could've seen it. I just can't imagine a manpad missing a civilian airliner - unless it was defective or its user was dumbass. Both conditions are possible I guess.

200 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:51:04pm

185 reaganite - After I hit post, I should have said relatively cheap. Still, $1 Million versus how many billions in losses, economic damage if just one plane is brought down? It would be a well worth the investment, IMO.

201 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:51:40pm

Ann

When you get tired of reaganite's beer tester, you could send her this way:-)

202 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:52:08pm

#197 LanceKates

I know that here in OKC, at Tinker AFB, a few guys supposedly of Middle Eastern decent in appearance, were seen aiming shoulder type weapon at airplanes taking off.

I saw the official report of that incident (it was before I retired). The news reports weren't quite accurate. That's all I can say.

203 Aslan'sGirl  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:52:40pm

#172, I'm wondering if maybe the trumpet player was Phil Driscoll? He's amazing. Did he have blonde hair? Sorry I missed it, by your description, it sounds wonderful. Hopefully this will be aired again.

204 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:53:46pm

I'm thinking that this debate shouldn't have even taking place. Galloway is a guttersnipe, a nazi street hustler appealing to the idiots at the DU, Kos and A.N.S.W.E.R. Just talking to him gives some legitimacy to his hateful rants.

Galloway reminds me more and more of someone out of the 30s, shouting, gesturing and posturing. A rabble rouser, intimidating the opposition; Oswald Mosely for the new millenium.

Then there's Amy Goodman, she and Galloway are a fine pair. He bellows, she's snide.

205 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:54:01pm

#75 a.k.a. Will - I thought there were more than a hundred Flight 800 witnesses. A plane explodes during an election campaign. NAW, no reason to look for other causes.

206 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:56:07pm

#199 JP

I just can't imagine a manpad missing a civilian airliner - unless it was defective or its user was dumbass. Both conditions are possible I guess.

Well, think of it this way, SA-7s are well known for getting confused by widely seperated heat sources. And honestly, many of the "operator" terrorists are the idiots the "smart" terrorists get to do their dirty work.

Any combination of what you and I are saying could be true. If this event happened.

207 Ann  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:56:21pm

#201 [Engineer]

When you get tired of reaganite's beer tester, you could send her this way:-)

I would be more than happy to, but I have not been introduced properly. Once I meet the Beatch, I will happily put her on a plane to Dallas!

208 Radian  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:57:22pm

It may not be advisable to make airliners harder to shoot down with air - air weapons.

209 dr. pangloss  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:57:52pm

what has happened?

1. an unverified SAM attack on an American plane...wild-eyed gossip worthy of debka at its worse

2. appointment of david corn (rather korn, as in amerika- the left likes to write) to pajama media

say it ain't so.

210 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:59:09pm

#200 Baldy

Still, $1 Million versus how many billions in losses, economic damage if just one plane is brought down? It would be a well worth the investment, IMO.

For 1 airplane yes. Think about the fleets the airlines run. Most airlines are barely keeping their heads above water with fuel prices and the unions. I think to retrofit a fleet would bankrupt just about any airline.

211 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:59:30pm

#197 LanceKates,

There have been a few incidents recently at Tinker...suspicious package incidents.

212 LanceKates  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 5:59:34pm

#202 reaganite

there were news reports? I searched all I could to find SOMETHING and never did. I even emailed what I had seen to the local news, and never saw a report or news story.

This was the picture of the police report that I was emailed.

OKC Police Report

213 LanceKates  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:00:56pm

#211 milford

there was a report from a guy who didn't make a promotion who called in a bomb threat. (The lack of getting the promotion would mean he would have to go to Iraq... and apparently he didn't join the military to actually fight for his country)

214 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:01:04pm

150 Hannitized - In Pittsburgh it was Flight 427. It didn't fall off, but IIRC, swung to one side and got stuck? It was decided wind shear and/or wake from other plane caused problem.

215 TenRing  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:01:08pm

#205 Baldy

I thought there were more than a hundred Flight 800 witnesses. A plane explodes during an election campaign. NAW, no reason to look for other causes.

Ya know, you might be right. My guy for mayor was neck and neck in the primary until that plane blew up...yeah, that's it!

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

/irony

216 christheprofessor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:01:27pm

#204 Paul

I don't know. I think that Hitchens rebutted fairly well almost all Galloway's points, without really taking any body hits himself. Most of Galloway's stuff was name calling, misinformation or the like. And Galloway made his anti-Semitism plain for all too see.

I've noticed that people tend to move right instead of left as they mature. Maybe it will have opened the eyes of some fence sitters.

217 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:01:40pm

#208 Radian

It may not be advisable to make airliners harder to shoot down with air - air weapons.

Why?

218 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:03:18pm

#212 LanceKates

there were news reports?

Charles has a thread about it somewhere.

219 foreign devil  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:03:30pm

Damn Hitch was good. He's getting better looking too. Or is that just me. There's something awfully sexy about a man who can think fast on his feet and say it with panache! Galloway never addressed the point. All he has is articulate bombast and ad hominem attacks.

And what about that woman who was the moderator. Could she have had any more loaded questions than those she asked of Hitch? B*tch!

220 n in wi  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:04:21pm

was'nt the last words on the cockpit recorder of flight 800 "ali akbar" from the co-piliot?

221 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:04:27pm

#213 LanceKates,

Was this the same incident? FBI investigating.

[Link: www.airforcetimes.com...]

222 TenRing  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:05:14pm
Damn Hitch was good. He's getting better looking too

Must.gouge.eyes.now.

223 bonz  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:05:39pm

#206 reaganite

Well, think of it this way, SA-7s are well known for getting confused by widely seperated heat sources. And honestly, many of the "operator" terrorists are the idiots the "smart" terrorists get to do their dirty work.

Imagine...it misses the commercial jet and in that target rich environment hits Arianna Huffington's private jet...Oooops

224 LanceKates  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:05:40pm

#221 milford


I'm not sure. if it happened on the 14th, no. what I was talking about happened a week or so before.

225 LanceKates  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:07:13pm

ok. i'm going for a while. the wine is starting to kick in.

(A good cherry wine... mmm... )

226 Condor  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:07:22pm

Even if an airline can't afford to fit all its fleet with anti-missle defenses (about $1 million a plane, last time I heard), they could at least randomly outfit some of them; and
announce that they are progressively outfitting all of them in this way--leading the bad guys to think that their modes of attack might not work.
("Confusion to the enemy", and all that. . .)

227 foreign devil  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:07:27pm

Rerun of Armageddon is on so I think I'll watch the Bruce Willis-Billy Bob Mutual Masturbation Admiration Society.

228 Simple Voice  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:07:34pm

Once again, nothing from the MSM on this incident. How often can the "professionals" be scooped, before they finally figure out they are still operating under the corrupt paradigm that news is entertainment and all that matters is the financial bottom line?

229 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:08:24pm

#224 LanceKates,

I also have this separate incident from September 11:
[Link: www.channeloklahoma.com...]

230 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:08:31pm

#223 bonz

Oooops

She's a moonbat, but I don't wish her dead. Besides her crew going down with her.

I did giggle though.

231 Haiku  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:09:13pm

Thanks everyone for the links on Jane Fonda. I knew that she was a traitor to America but her actions were a lot worse than I thought.

232 PSGInfinity  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:10:32pm

#202 Reaganite

"The news reports weren't quite accurate. That's all I can say."

Dude, you just wigged me out...

To All:
Ii's rarely a good sign when members of the Greater Law Enforcement Community® zip their lips...

233 n in wi  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:10:45pm

maybe this ties into all the lasers being shined into cockpits a few months back

234 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:11:07pm

#229 milford421
#224 LanceKates
Guys, don't read too much into "suspicious packages" on military bases. They happen all the time. Trust me.

235 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:13:45pm

#232 PSGInfinity

Ii's rarely a good sign when members of the Greater Law Enforcement Community® zip their lips...

On the contrary, it's a great sign when the public doesn't know.

236 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:13:58pm

#234 reaganite,

"Guys, don't read too much into "suspicious packages" on military bases. They happen all the time. Trust me."

I'll take your word for it, but read the first link I posted and tell me if you think it's a bit out of the ordinary.

237 PSGInfinity  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:14:57pm

#235 Reaganite

My point precisely... ...from the other side of the Badge! :)

238 Vickie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:15:01pm

OT: Think the musician was Irvin Mayfield.."Closer Walk With Thee" on Live From Lincoln Center. Jazz. I was blown away..(so to speak)

239 Ann  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:15:03pm

Why do they hate airplanes?

Because Mohammed never was able to envison them? Mohammed never envisioned much good, so all is bad. TV's, music, happiness, productivity, tolerance, advancement, education, altruism, civilization, peaceful co-existence, or women having a productive role in society.

Okay, sorry. Airplanes are bad.

240 Radian  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:16:00pm

217 reaganite

In the event of another taker over an aircraft would have a better chance of evading our IR guided systems. Making it harder for the airforce or air defense forces to hit and destroy an aircraft.

An idea put forward by a commercial pilot I know. He also mentioned the giant cost.

Don't know if the aircraft scramble with just sindwinders or have sparrows on board.

Interestingly the pictures from the (dhl?) aircraft hit in Iraq show an engine loss. Pilot landed.

Dont think it would be all that effective anyway

241 Hannitized  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:16:01pm

#214 Baldy

Wasn't it pilot error caused by excessive rudder movements which caused the plane to roll to inverted, then crashing to the ground?

242 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:16:24pm

210 reaganite- If one plane were shot down, what would happen to the air industry? I know the airlines couldn't afford it. They can't even afford peanuts. Friends of mine in the industry make what they did in 1985, after all of the cuts, and that's not inflation adjusted.

243 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:17:14pm

#236 milford421

I'll take your word for it, but read the first link I posted and tell me if you think it's a bit out of the ordinary.

I read it. It's odd for the FBI to be called in. But it happens often, especially since 9-11.

244 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:18:40pm

#237 PSGInfinity

My point precisely... ...from the other side of the Badge! :)

You lost me dude!

245 Rayra[deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:19:14pm
246 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:19:24pm

#220 n in wi - I think you're thinking of the Halloween 1999 EgyptAir crash.

247 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:19:46pm

#219,

Yeah. It's just you.

I'm reminded of the biological term the "odd male hypothesis" (some mutations get selected for simply by the fact that they make the male "different" than run-of-the-mill, which some females take a chance on, and those that "win" --by happening to select for a desirable mutation rather than a deleterious one-- have their preference for "odd" males passed on to the succeeding generations). ;)

248 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:19:54pm

#243 reaganite,

"I read it. It's odd for the FBI to be called in.

Glad you think so too.

"But it happens often, especially since 9-11."

Yup, I know it does...same thing in NYC. Thanks.

249 Vickie  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:20:37pm

# Aslan: Just saw your post. Think it is Irvin Mayfied. (He is a youngISH black guy) It was so good I practically had a "you know what" from listening to it..lolo G-d it was GOOD. Tooo Good.

250 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:21:16pm

#240 Radian

In the event of another taker over an aircraft would have a better chance of evading our IR guided systems. Making it harder for the airforce or air defense forces to hit and destroy an aircraft.

Our air defense fighters do not just carry IR weapons. For the most part the AMRAAM is the weapon of choice. Need I mention the 20mm gatling guns on our fighters?

251 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:22:01pm

#222,

Must.gouge.eyes.now.

Far more concise...

252 Radian  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:23:29pm

250

yep, both of us were drunk but it was an idea on the table.

Some countries will not allow them on aircraft, classify them as a weapon system.

I remember an el-al flight getting an unfriendly welcome in france over this issue.

253 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:24:32pm

#242 Baldy

If one plane were shot down, what would happen to the air industry?

They've tried, remember this? What about the missile that missed the EL Al in Africa?

254 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:25:03pm

Billion Dollar Fix After Flight 427 Crash (Pittsburgh Tribune-Review)

Flight 427, USAir's fifth crash in five years, strongly resembled the 1991 crash of United Flight 585 in Colorado Springs, also a Boeing 737. Initially, some blamed wind patterns for both crashes and even pilot error for Flight 427. The NTSB found a problem in the design of the Boeing 737's rudder control system. Specifically, a valve called a servo valve could jam and swing the hinged piece of the tail, called a rudder, all the way to one side

I was wrong. I just remembered the original prelim.

255 PSGInfinity  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:25:43pm

#244 Reaganite

(chuckles) I do that, frequently. I'll see if I can explain myself in a different way...

256 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:26:31pm

Guys, don't read too much into "suspicious packages" on military bases. They happen all the time. Trust me

I have to laugh at this. A friend of mine told me what happened if they put down thier weapon and walked away during boot camp.

I know a package/breifcase/lunch is not the same as a weapon. Not even close.

So if they can idenitfy the owner, what happens?

257 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:27:17pm

#252 Radian

I remember an el-al flight getting an unfriendly welcome in france over this issue.

IIRC, it was becuase it was an EL AL plane, no other reason.

258 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:28:42pm

#256 got milk?

So if they can idenitfy the owner, what happens?

99% of the time it terminates the incident.

259 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:29:09pm

253 reaganite - I was referring to passenger flights. A hundred boxes' next of kin on a DHL flight aren't going to sue the pants off everyone. A missile fired at a plane in Iraq doesn't have the same urgency to Joe Smith & Family going to Disney World.

260 Radian  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:32:46pm

259

I mentioned dhl. It would be horrible if a civ airliner was hit. no doubt.

My point is that the hit can be survivable.

I'm giving this the 48 hour treatment. Had a friend flying today, no delays. I think even the hint would slow the system down.

261 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:32:58pm

#259 Baldy
Terrorists have been knocking down airliners for decades, how does a missile change the equation?

262 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:33:43pm

Meanwhile, in moonbat land, Chimpy's FEMA goons attack innocent truckers:

[Link: www.democraticunderground.com...]

263 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:35:31pm

215 TenRing - I still have doubts about the cause of Flight 800, but I also have doubt about the link I posted above. I just think it's one of those things that I will always have doubts about.

264 Hannitized  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:35:59pm

254 Baldy

Thanks for the follow-up. I just wasn't sure if this feeble mind was recalling correctly.

It's a bitch working on a Saturday night...

265 Ann  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:36:43pm

The islamists are too stupid to destroy Western Civilization.

Time to face this optomistic thought?

266 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:39:03pm

261 reaganite - Can screening of little old ladies at the airport make a difference? Can the American public really be assured? I doubt it. It would be a huge difference if a plane were shot down.

267 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:41:05pm

#266 Baldy

It would be a huge difference if a plane were shot down.

As opposed to Lockerby?

268 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:43:01pm

Also, how many Americans remember the El Al attempt in Africa? There is a big difference between an attempt in a foreign land, and here. Trust me. I know nothing about explosives or the military compared to you, but my gut tells me if a plane were shot down, here, on US soil, it would change everything.

269 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:44:55pm

#268 Baldy,
" but my gut tells me if a plane were shot down, here, on US soil, it would change everything."

You bet it would.

270 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:45:48pm

#268 Baldy

but my gut tells me if a plane were shot down, here, on US soil, it would change everything.

Half the nation thinks W did 9-11.

271 Amy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:46:51pm

IIRC, El Al planes do have the anti-missile defense systems, but El Al has far fewer planes to equip.

272 Cindy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:48:11pm

To Reaganite: Is this what you were referring to in post no. 202? -Cindy

MACON.com - THE MACON TELEGRAPH: "POSSIBLE THREAT AT TINKER SPAWNS ACTION AT RAFB" by Gene Rector (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "ROBINS AIR FORCE BASE - Robins Air Force Base officials have confirmed that a possible security threat at Tinker Air Force Base, Okla., earlier this month has energized local law enforcement agencies. Tinker spokeswoman Lt. Candice Adams said late Thursday that suspicious activity did occur July 14 at the Oklahoma City installation, although she would not describe the nature of the incident.") (July 29, 2005) (Note: This url may expire.)

KTOC.com: "OKC POLICE REPORT ON TINKER AFB INCIDENT" by Jerry Bohnen (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "As KTOK has reported previously, FBI spokesman Gary Johnson in Oklahoma City said agents looked into the report and determined there was nothing to it. Still, the story continues to have life on the Internet.  And it reportedly was the cause of an alert to be issued at a Utah Air Force base.") (July 28, 2005) (Note: This url may expire.)

ChannelOklahoma.com: Midwest City, Oklahoma - "FBI: TINKER RUMOR NOT CREDIBLE" (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "The FBI said Monday that it found no credible threat in an online rumor regarding rocket launchers and Tinker Air Force Base.") (Updated July 25, 2005) (Note: This url may expire.)


IN THE USA... MICHELLE MALKIN.com: "STRANGE MEN WITH ROCKET LAUNCHERS" (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "Here's where I first saw the Battle Staff Directive describing the incident at Tinker Air Force base on July 14 involving three men of Middle Eastern descent reportedly aiming a rocket launcher at low-flying aircraft. I confirmed the directive with Hill Air Force Base, which put out a warning last week to base personnel.") (July 27, 2005)
273 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:48:24pm

reaganite - What? Now they ask if anyone handed you something, or if your suitcase was unattended. There is NO comparison. At least with screening, there is some semblance of "psychic security" (and real security) now. This thread is about the possible SAM attack against a US passenger plane... EVERYTHING I've remarked about is about this. I remember Lockerbie (which I never believed the Libyans did- it was 5 months after we shot down an Iranian plane).

274 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:50:25pm

Baldy #205

#75 a.k.a. Will - I thought there were more than a hundred Flight 800 witnesses. A plane explodes during an election campaign. NAW, no reason to look for other causes.

You may be right. Just remembering something I probably read four or five years ago I recall seventy or eighty witnesses being mentioned. But whatever it was, it was more than enough to be taken seriously.

275 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:51:12pm

270 reaganite - Yeah, but they still get on planes to visit Aunt Fred & Uncle Francis.

276 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:52:14pm

#272 Cindy

Is this what you were referring to in post no. 202?

Yes and no. And I really can't comment further.

277 cali white bear  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:52:47pm

if this had happened yesterday it would already be public information by tonight.

airlines, the faa, dod, they are all watched like hawks by the story hungry 4th estate. they'd all have to be cahoots to withold information about an attack & it would serve no purpose...just piss people off when and if it turned out to be true.

if it has happened theres two stories here: the attempted attack itself and why it hasnt been made public since yesterday.

278 Kwik Karl  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:53:15pm
a man clamed that a barge had broken free and beat against the levee

I heard this as well, LIVE ON FOXNews and I think from the man claimings this - the day after the levee broke. It was the first and last time I heard anyone mention it?

279 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:54:16pm

#272 Cindy,

Thanks for the post.

Interesting dateline...the news report claiming this was a rumor was dated July 25.

The Macon report claiming incident is being investigated is dated July 29.

280 gymnast  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:54:47pm

OT, Took the wife to the movies tonight and saw Lords of war. Fantasy movie with some good action scenes. We gave it a grade of D- as far as having any semblence of reality as pertains to the arms trade. Save your quarter or take low expectations and expect them to be fulfilled. The LLL should love it as they tend to think shit like this movie has something in common with reality. It doesn't.

281 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:55:42pm

#273 Baldy

EVERYTHING I've remarked about is about this. I remember Lockerbie (which I never believed the Libyans did- it was 5 months after we shot down an Iranian plane).

The Libyans did it. I've seen all the reports on that bombing.

But you're arguing apples and oranges. How does it matter how a terrorist takes down an airliner? Bombs, box cutters, missiles, it's all the same thing. Terrorism.

282 fsjeffrey  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:55:53pm

Anything further from Charles regarding the possible SAM attack?

Not a peep from anywhere.

Odd?

283 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:57:35pm

#280 gymnast

The LLL should love it as they tend to think shit like this movie has something in common with reality. It doesn't.

You might be surprised.

284 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:58:41pm

277 cali white bear

Do you really belive if this was not a trusted Lizzard Charles would pass it on?

It has to be a long time Lizzard. My bet they saw it themselves or knows & trusts someone that has.

Charles gets lots of emails. Most of it does not make it here.

Benifit of the doubt. It was a lazer. They happen enough now where it won't make the news unless someone was hurt.


If it came from me or TFK I think he would have held it.

285 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:58:51pm

#282 fsjeffrey,

Odd?

Odd.

286 Axe Wielding Liberal Paddler  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:59:03pm

Here's the thing

If it turns out to be true and it comes to pass that it was someone who is Islamic and of Arabiuc descent, I can tell you what will start happening;

1) Ordinary Americans telling the ACLU to piss off in regards to "profiling."

2) The US Government will begin deporting non-citizens of Arabic descent (especially males between the ages of 18 and 45) and interning Americans of Arabic heritage.

Maybe slowly at first, but watch out if it turns out this is true...

287 Ann  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 6:59:58pm

They have been baiting us for so long to get attention.

Burger King now has their attention.

It's all about bleating for attention, and nothing about an effective strategy.

They are idiots.

288 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:01:24pm

#286 Axe Wielding Liberal Paddler

Maybe slowly at first, but watch out if it turns out this is true...

Yeah, I believe you are right...

/sarcasm

289 gymnast  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:05:33pm

#283, Reaganite. "You might be surprised" Not likely if you are referring to the "triangle trade" of the 80s. The ending of the movie is interesting, but not nearly as subtle as reality.

290 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:09:35pm

#289 gymnast
I've never met any arms traders, but I have met some pretty odd characters around the world doing some pretty shady things.

Ann and I watched the movie as well, it reminded me of a guy I met in the middle east about a decade ago.

291 rabidfox  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:09:40pm

Got Milk; many years before 9/11 a lady I know, who worked in a secure building, brought in a surprise Christmas present for the secretary. The secretary wasn't there so this flake put it on the landing of the back stairs. Someone coming up the stairs saw it and called the bomb squad. My friend TRIED to tell the bomb squad what was in there - even offered to open the package. Not dice. Bomb squad whet through the entire drill. My friend was sort of encourage to find a job elsewhere.

292 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:11:53pm

281 reaganite - Oh for God's sake. You really are not understanding what I'm saying. It makes a big frikking difference if people don't have any expectation that it can be stopped in some way. I suppose we can secure the approaches to every airport.

293 Cindy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:16:17pm

To :Reaganite regarding your post no. 276.

Thank you for the yes and no and please don't confide anything confidential, BUT PLEASE DO POST public, non-classified urls to anything I have left out.

I would appreciate that.
---

ON THE NET...

[Link: www.truthusa.com...]

294 Charles  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:17:38pm

Please see the update to this post -- Michelle Malkin has verified at least part of the story.

295 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:19:34pm

#292 Baldy

Oh for God's sake. You really are not understanding what I'm saying. It makes a big frikking difference if people don't have any expectation that it can be stopped in some way.

Okay, in deference to you, I'll put this simply. A ManPad can not take down an airliner unless they are very lucky. I linked what I did earlier to make a point. Most ManPads have a very small warhead designed to take down single engine fighters or helicopters. Most have a range of about 2 miles. You are not getting my point. It does not matter how the terrorists take down an airliner. It only matters that they do. You are making this hypothetical argument that a missile changes everything.

Tell that to the thousands of people who died at terrorist hands long before ManPads even existed.

296 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:21:59pm

Reaganite - I don't understand your point about my comparing "apples and oranges." I have been talking about the topic of the thread. Missiles. Not anything else. I know full well other means have been used to take down passenger planes. I know security at airports isn't all that great, but at least there is plenty, and people still fly. I wonder how long air traffic would be shut down after a successful SAM attack on a passenger plane. A weem? A month? More?

297 Cindy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:22:19pm

re your post no. 279, milford421.

Yep.

I rechecked that myself when putting those links together in July.
I just let it stand to see what history makes of those links one way or the other.

298 gymnast  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:24:34pm

#290, Reaganite. Cage is a good actor and researched his role well. Too bad he didn't have a better script to work from. Almost all the Arms guys I knew in the Middle East were factory reps. But there were a few exceptions and they tended to be ex-military from one country or another doing a little of this and a little of that.

299 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:26:00pm

#296 Baldy

I wonder how long air traffic would be shut down after a successful SAM attack on a passenger plane. A weem? A month? More?

How long did air travel shut down after Richard Reid? After Lockerbie?, What about after the recent black widow bombings in Russia? You are making assumptions based on emotion rather than facts.

300 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:27:59pm

#298 gymnast

Too bad he didn't have a better script to work from.

Oh I argee, but I did find the movie amusing and disturbing at the same time. But I did like how they portrayed the UN.

301 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:29:14pm

reaganite - Yes - I KNOW PEOPLE have been killed in every way possible by terrorists. I will trust your expert opinion that it would be difficult to do this. Of course what I stated was hypothetical, because it hasn't happened yet. It just seems you keep moving the goalposts. Everything I post you have an unrelated comment. I'm outta here.

302 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:30:40pm

#301 Baldy

It just seems you keep moving the goalposts.

You're going to have to back that up. Where did I once move the goal posts?

303 Amy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:33:48pm

Well, the reference to "an incident" is frustratingly vague. Could be a whole range of things.

America West obviously has an economic interest in not publicizing this too much, and the FBI and whoever else is investigating may also have their reasons for keeping this close to the vest.

What I want to see is how long it takes the MSM to catch wind of this.

304 gymnast  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:36:20pm

#300, Reaganite. Yes those UN trucks are quite versatile. And the members of the UN Security Council are the worlds largest arms suppliers.

305 cobra  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:36:26pm

#294

The plot thickens.

306 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:40:29pm

#304 gymnast

And the members of the UN Security Council are the worlds largest arms suppliers.

Even though they don't have a seat, they left out Italy.

307 Paul  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:41:37pm

#294 Charles

So it was at JFK, as I suspected. Is it a coincidence that George Galloway and his moonbat circus was in town?

308 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:49:46pm

#307 Paul

Coulda been some geeks with a suped up Estes rocket for all we know at this point.

309 cobra  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:51:15pm

#307 Paul

Too much of a coincidence, to be a coincidence.

310 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:54:42pm

#309 cobra

Too much of a coincidence, to be a coincidence.

Last call at the bar you were at huh?

311 gymnast  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:56:07pm

#306, Reaganite. There was enough Iraqi stuff left in Kuwait after "the Storm" to put them on the list of Major arms suppliers, but as I recall must of the stuff went home with the Egyptians and Syrians.

South Korea and the Check Republic could be added to that list right after Italy and we also shouldn't forget Brazil.

312 locutus  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:58:59pm

#267

#266 Baldy

It would be a huge difference if a plane were shot down.
As opposed to Lockerby?

I think I know what Baldy is trying to say here..

A bomb planted on an airliner has a better chance of being detected (we would hope) or prevented (we would also hope, especially now) than someone popping up at the end of a runway at the last second with one of these portable weapons and firing it off.

The end result is still the same, an airliner is destroyed and people are killed. But the psychological effect is different.

Think of being killed because you are behind on your payments to a loan shark (your own fault, you were asking for it) vs. being hit in the head by a meteor (a completely random event that you had no control over.)

We are always more horrified by the meteor.

313 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 7:59:04pm

#311 gymnast

South Korea and the Check Republic could be added to that list right after Italy and we also shouldn't forget Brazil.

Gah! I blew up enough Brazilian stuff in DS-1 that Charles could have had his own army! How could I have forgotten?

314 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:02:50pm

#312 locutus

A bomb planted on an airliner has a better chance of being detected (we would hope) or prevented (we would also hope, especially now)

Without trying to be insulting, that's wishfull thinking.

315 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:07:11pm

someone popping up at the end of a runway at the last second with one of these portable weapons and firing it off.

I am sure that pay guys to do nothing but drive around the perimeter all day long. Makes this a bit harder to do.

316 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:09:09pm

#312 locutus

A makup bottle full of nitro and a hard toss .. well, shit, do they screen for mascara containers? The possibilities are nearly endless.

317 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:10:12pm

Barge Info from Staff Sgt in NOLA (Times-Pic)

reaganite - OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the "moving the goalposts" phrase. The last successful attack on US planes was 9/11. Didn't we shut down the airline industry for a few days? This thread was about a possible SAM attack on a passenger jet in the US. I was referring to successful SAM attacks on US soil. My emotions have little to do with what I've been posting (except annoyance with your comments). All of the previous terrorist attacks (ignoring failures like El AL in Africa) against passenger jets have been caused from inside the plane. There is screening to deter/prevent these from happening again. If you don't think a successful SAM attack would be a whole different ball game, then I can't convince you. THAT was my point. Not that some lives are more important than others, or that it's easy to do. What more can I say?

318 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:13:49pm

#317 Baldy

If you don't think a successful SAM attack would be a whole different ball game, then I can't convince you. THAT was my point.

Shoot me an email would you? What I have to say does not belong on LGF. No, it's not going to be rude.

319 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:15:44pm

#96 Miles Caughey My #317 above was for you (and others) who posted about a barge. Maybe not same incident, but a reliable source (the Staff Sgt, not the newspaper).

320 cobra  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:18:04pm

#310 reaganite

Last call at the bar you were at huh?


Hey! I resent resemble that remark!

321 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:20:50pm

reganite - I tried. The demon bounced it back.

322 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:28:17pm

#321 Baldy

Sounds like we need a mail exorcist!

323 reaganite  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:29:45pm

#321 Baldy

I tried. The demon bounced it back.

Check yours.

324 locutus  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:31:29pm
I am sure that pay guys to do nothing but drive around the perimeter all day long. Makes this a bit harder to do.

I don't want to be too specific here, but I have been able to sit at the end (within 50 yards, lets say) of runways at both a good sized commercial airport and an ANG base with my camcorder and shoot footage of both civilian airliners and military aircraft taking off and landing, without being approached by any kind of security officer, civilian or military. Not just post-9/11, but recently, and I'm talking normal flying days, not during an air show.

Not to say that I wasn't noticed by anyone, just that nobody drove over and told me to get lost.

325 Baldy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:32:41pm

322 Orson Buggy - I know it was the Mailer Daemon (or however it's spelled). Some LLL friend of mine told me Fri that the "Religious Right" likes the new excorcism movie (...Of Mary Rose?). I don't know where he got the info. I would be interested to hear if anyone else has heard of such support by Christians.

326 milford421  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:36:17pm

#297 Cindy,

Good information. Thanks for posting it.

327 got milk?  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:36:53pm

324 locutus

hmmm. At the prision where my hubby works at, a few drive, a few walk, and some are in the towers. You could not get away with that there.

So what ever happened to report strange behavior? They tell us to do that all of the time. Someone at an airport sitting in a car with camera should have attracted attention. Assuming it was in the flight path.

328 Orson Buggy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:38:50pm

#325 Baldy

I'm not much into spook movies. I don't care what the movie industry cranks out in the genre, and I doubt God worries too much about it either.

329 Cindy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:40:28pm

re post no. 326:

You're welcome milford421.

330 Cindy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:42:20pm

UPDATE...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Saturday, September 17, 2005
"The Flight 17 Incident, Topic 2"

331 locutus  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:46:24pm

#327

So what ever happened to report strange behavior? They tell us to do that all of the time. Someone at an airport sitting in a car with camera should have attracted attention. Assuming it was in the flight path.

Back in the early 90's, while I was meeting with a recruiter, one of the guards waved my car in through the gate of an ANG base without so much as looking at me, nevermind making me stop, or asking me who I was or why I was there (he assumed that I was one of the civilian contractors that worked there.) I bet (hope) that doesn't happen anymore.

332 locutus  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:49:35pm

Also, during my lifetime I've reported a lot of "strange behavior" to all sorts of agencies and officials. It has been my experience that most of the time it seemed like I was "bothering" the person I was making the report to, and that nothing ever resulted from any of my "reports".

333 Yehudit  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 8:52:22pm
Did I just see Atlas clapping in the audience?

Yes you did. She also yelled out some things and almost got escorted out of the hall. So did I. I linked to it all. You can get to Pamela's blog from there too.

334 FabioC.  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 9:43:58pm

#313 reaganite

Ah, Brazilian weapons. I know that Brazil has some military industry, but (not) strangely the LLLs often forget to mention it. It seems that only western whiteys can be arms dealers in the lefty world.

335 insider  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 10:27:34pm

I blame FEMA.

336 Cindy  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 10:30:16pm

NOTE: Crossposting
Fyi.

===

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

337 Egfrow  Sat, Sep 17, 2005 11:14:46pm

It is very unlikey that this was a true surface to air missle. If it was that plane would most likely would have been hit. These things don't miss unless you are a complete retdard.

I would really take this incident with a grain of salt.

338 curt9988  Sun, Sep 18, 2005 3:04:11am

Mormons. Sounds like the work of Mormons.

339 cbinflux  Sun, Sep 18, 2005 6:01:57am

re: Airport Perimeters

Just before 9/11, a nice young man started coming to our church, and he joined a study group. b/c we took turns reading, I discovered that he could not read, and I kept it our secret.

While teaching him to read, I discovered that he worked dayshift at our Int'l Airport (in a hub city). His job was to drive the perimeter, and he would open the perimeter gates for contractors and authorities -- after verifying their I.D.

Not only was he illiterate and hiding it, but he was small, and extremely non-confrontational.

I hope that employee screening is better these days, but traveling through Boston tells me that it isn't.

340 Cindy  Sun, Sep 18, 2005 6:59:37am

UPDATE...

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]
"WHAT HAPPENED ON FLIGHT 17? (UPDATED: NO MISSILE, JUST BIRDS)"
By Michelle Malkin · September 17, 2005 11:51 PM

341 Dov (In the Astrodome City) Republic of Texas  Sun, Sep 18, 2005 7:05:56pm

and ?

342 bruiser  Sun, Sep 18, 2005 8:01:39pm

Colts Neck, NJ?

What, all those rich surgeons and lawyers pissed off at being in the flight traffic pattern on days the wind is from a southerly direction?


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