Go after them boys and kick some long over due syrian ass.

Best wishes to our US troops.

Good luck.

As someone on T.V. would say: "OHMYGOD!"

At last! Now can we bomb Iran please? God bless the troops.

We should have bombed Syria ages ago.

Go get'em!

I'd like to be excited about this, but I can't do it.

I'm invoking the 48 hour/source other than Debka rule.

I'm glad they are doing this, but I can only imagine what the moonbats and media are going to say now...

People, it's Debka ...
:-~

However, if even close to the truth Syria once again noses ahead of Iran in their absolutely insane, rather competitive race to be "Next!"

Wait a minute. I thought that the US troops were going to be withdrawn through Tehran, not Damascus.

OT

Man, did Zarky screw up by pissing off Abdullah!

Debka's info is always sensational but rarely true.

Isn't David Duke in Syria now?

#9 Buckaroo 11/24/2005 03:22PM PST
People, it's Debka ...
:-~

However, if even close to the truth Syria once again noses ahead of Iran in their absolutely insane, rather competitive race to be "Next!"

I agree,
the jury is out on this story for at least 12 hours.

It is after all
Debka...

Not al Jazeera,

But
Debka

# 10 r b

See my #9 -- the mullahs and the chinless one seemingly trade the top spot weekly now ...
:-0

Even if this report is true, I am underwhelmed by the chronically tepid, too-litle-too-late, and hope-we-don't-make-Teddy-Kennedy-mad approach to this war by the heads-deeply-inserted-in-posteriors Bush/Dumbsfeld team. It's almost as if they are afraid that if they try too hard they might actually win this war -- and quickly.

That said, I do sincerely wish our troops great success in kicking Syrian tail.

/extremely skeptical

#12 Buckaroo

Abdullah is the closest thing we have to a friend in the ME, Israel excepted. I wish him happy hunting.

#8 aafflyer

One should not care
for moonbats know not how to win the war on terror.

Remember, this isn't 'Nam.
And Syria isn't Cambodia.

To all US Marines;
if they set up shop a click or two across "an immaginary border line"

go get some now.

I'm glad they are doing this, but I can only imagine what the moonbats and media are going to say now...

#8 aafflyer

can it get much worse?

Doesn't it seem like our troops start a major offensive on an Americian holiday? It gives us something to cheer about as we wash the dishes after our holiday meals.

In our case we haven't eaten yet, champaign is being purchased for a toast to the Marines. Our Marine is spending his day on a lonely road at 29 Palms, guarding a firing range. Hope they feed him, one day they forgot and the crows got his MREs.

Rule number one: The first report is always wrong.

a google news search of syria shows many articles on a recent operation on the iraqi - syrian border, supposedly completed on the 23rd. so our soldiers are in that area.

DEBKA needs to be taken with a salt mine, not just a grain of salt.

It would be wonderful if this turns out to be true, though.

I suppose that means that during the next Presidental election John effin Kerry will state that he was in Syria on Thanksgiving. It's seared in his mind.

#7 Powderfinger #13 Gaby

I'm invoking the 48 hour/source other than Debka rule.

Debka's info is always sensational but rarely true.

This is just my impression in that I have not kept stats; since their new format, Debka's "news" items - i.e. anything that will be proven or disproven soon - have been quite accurate. Items that are of a forecasting nature, less so. Maybe 50/50 but as I said, I have not kept stats.

Desperate for more information, maybe some reports from the field (any side)?

I'll keep my eye out.

Of course, if Marines approached the Syrian border and the border patrol opened fire, I'd call that a de facto act of war, in which case Syria may have won the "next" bid.

It's hard to tell from what information we do have, I wasn't aware we were ready for the next one. Then again, you can't always wait until you're ready.

GO MARINES.

Hopefully if this becomes a major conflict, the USA will declare war on Syria. Unconditional surrender.

For the moment, let's assume this story is accurate...I know... big mistake.

Humor me.

That would mean that the NCA (National Command Authority; POTUS, SECDEF) has granted permission to conduct offensive operations on another soverign country's territory, also known as an invasion.

Wow. If true, it's definately a short-term, hot-pursuit kind of thing.

But it does send the correct message. For a change.

Are we finally getting SYRIAss?

Operation Steel Curtain closes along Iraq’s Syrian border
[Link: www.estripes.com...]

"The operation was also the first time large numbers of Iraqi soldiers had been used in combat in western Iraq. More than 1,000 Iraqi troops fought alongside thousands of U.S. Marines and soldiers during the operation."

#34 Jouth

More than 1,000 Iraqi troops fought alongside thousands of U.S. Marines and soldiers during the operation."

Oh, this is just a training exercise, this little thing with Syria!

-:)

Hell, even the Mexicans shoot at our Border Patrol on occassion.

GO, MARINES!

True or not (and part of me hopes it is, as it would be a good sign in the war), I'm gonna cheer for the Corps.

Semper Fi!

OK, maybe it is Debka, but I can dream, can't I?

White Supremacist David Duke in Syria

(IsraelNN.com) Former Ku Klux Klan leader and Louisiana State Representative David Duke was in Syria on Monday to express solidarity with Damascus.

Maybe the former Louisiana State Representative can travel home with Galloway or Michael Jackson when he is finished murdering American Marines. Such lovely people are those on the other side.

Skirmishes between Syrian and American troops have been reported in the past. The question is whether either side will escalate beyond skirmishing on the border to actual incursion for the purposes of capturing and holding something on the other side? If so, what happens next?

I think Assad might overplay his hand because he feels his power and already low prestige and respect in the Arab community slipping away. One tiny border town occupied by American troops would be a terrible humiliation in the Arab-Muslim mind and cause whatever reasoning abilities he has to take a vacation.

Then we start using air power again. Bye, bye, Syrian military. But Assad can't think in terms of actual victory so much as saving face. He could employ his chemical weapons. That's a fantastic opening for a full-scale American attack to get at the Baathists and al Qaeda types hiding in Syria.

If it's a gambit by American planners, it's a good one.

Or, it's just another shootout between troops on a very tense border.

Assuming this is true, my bet is that Syria backs off, gives us the guys we want and denies that this ever happened. They can't be dumb enough to think that they can stop the Corps.

Debka has been saying for weeks now that Syrians who can have been relocating elsewhere and that the Hariri probe could spell the end of the brutal terrorist kleptocracy currently in place. Could this be the first whack at those mothers?

# 41 E

"They can't be dumb enough to think that they can stop the Corps."

Well, we are talking about Baathists here ...
:-)

gunjam said:

Even if this report is true, I am underwhelmed by the chronically tepid, too-litle-too-late, and hope-we-don't-make-Teddy-Kennedy-mad approach to this war by the heads-deeply-inserted-in-posteriors Bush/Dumbsfeld team. It's almost as if they are afraid that if they try too hard they might actually win this war -- and quickly.

"Dumsfeld," as you call him, will be remembered as the greatest Secretary of Defense of all time. He has:

1. fought and won two wars many thought unwinnable

2. prevented catastrophic environmental disasters in the case of Iraq

3. revamped the miltary into a faster, much more lethal force

4. instituted a policy of "jointness" that allows all branches of the service to operate more effectivly as a whole

5. followed a policy in Iraq that has minimized the sense of foreign occupation and kept the millions of fence-sitters from going over to the insurgency

6. allowed the generals on the ground to make the decisions

7. allowed the Special Forces to plan and execute their own missions without clearing them with the Pentagon first

8. pushed for military intelligence teams to circumvent obstructionism by the CIA

9. not given in to a childish, emotional, and counterproductive "kill 'em all" approach favored by armchair strategists who refuse to accept the realities of war in the middle east.

On this Thanksgiving, I thank God we have Rumsfeld and Bush in there. More importantly, so do the people actually fighting this war.

PETN,
The Mexican Army doesn't shoot at our border patrol.

#44 mich.manatee

Yup. And he's done all of that with one hand tied behind his back and legions of moonbats and back seat drivers nipping at his heels.

In any historical comparison, Rumsfeld's wars have been masterfully executed. Occupation is another issue.

#44 -- We could quibble with some of those items -- especially those that we have yet to see in action. Still, in general, I think Rumsfeld has done an excellent job and, on this Thanksgiving, I am grateful for his leadership too (as well as Bush's, Cheney's, Wolfowitz's, etc.)

Fallows' article in the Atlantic concerning our difficulty creating an Iraqi army characterized Rumsfeld as being bored with the war. I don't see that. I think he takes this task very seriously.

A buddy of mine who has been back from Iraq after two tours was involved in several actions near the Syrian border and told me that he had personally been involved once in a border clash and had witnessed another between Syrian guards and Iraqi forces.

If DEBKAfile is correct - and I'll reserve judgment on that one - more likely than not it was a relatively minor incursion by US forces in pursuit of Abu and his thugs. The "border" can get very "fuzzy" on the frontier out there!

#43 Buckaroo

Well, we are talking about Baathists here ...

So true. Maybe the ones that live will get a clue that shooting at a Marine is a real dumb thing to do.

Rumsfeld's Afghan war was perfect until he relied on the Northern Alliance when we think Osama was in Tora Bora. We should have cordoned the area with American troops, not easily-bought tribal leaders with sympathetic feelings for Bin Laden. Don't forget, he helped push the Soviets out of Afghanistan. His actual role has been blown out of proportion, but it was significant.

The Iraq War was perfect if our only goal was to topple Saddam and later find him. We should have used more troops in anticipation of the guaranteed flow of foreign fighters into Iraq. But that's long past and it's time for the Iraqis to decide whether they want a nation or a civil war. It's up in the air at this point.

Here is what is actually going on.

Posted on Thu, Nov. 24, 2005

Just another day for Marines on patrol in dangerous western Iraq

Associated Press

QAIM, Iraq - Huddling together in the cold, Marines of the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion spoke Thursday about missing family and friends back home as they prepared to spend their Thanksgiving on patrol near the Syrian border.

The Marines were scouting the remote, desert area along the border looking for smugglers and foreign fighters trying to slip into the country from Syria. The area, one of the most dangerous in Iraq, was the scene of brisk fighting this month as Marines drove insurgents out of three towns near Qaim, 200 miles northwest of Baghdad.

"Serving my country is important but losing friends makes me more thankful for what I have and for what I used to take for granted," said Cpl. Brian Zwart, 20, of the southwestern Michigan community of Fruitport, near Muskegon. He operates a 25mm cannon atop an armored personnel carrier.

Others thought about what they might be doing if they were back home.

"I could be sitting on the couch at home watching football with my dad. Instead I'm driving in Iraq," said Lance Cpl. Kyle Maxwell, 21, of Petaluma, Calif. Maxwell is spending his first Thanksgiving away from home driving an armored personnel carrier on patrol.

Most of the more than 140,000 U.S. troops in Iraq will get a traditional Thanksgiving meal of turkey and trimmings at their bases.

Same o Same o...nothing here...

#45 Pastorius

The Mexican Army doesn't shoot at our border patrol.

You sure 'bought that?

Either way, my point was border incidents do happen.

Will King Abdullah use phasers or photon torpedoes to hunt down and eliminate Al-Zarqawi?

[Link: www.kattanweb.com...]

Wasn't Assad pleading for immunity from the UN investigation?
Does he wish to go into a Saudi exile?
Like Idi Amin?

...before he is pushed out of office by the baathists?

#40 (Beagle)...

I tend to agree with you on Assad. If he turns over the officials John Bolton pressured the U.N. into requiring him to turn over (the Hariri assassination), he will be perceived as a sellout and a mutiny could be forthcoming...

If he doesn't, the pressure from the U.N. (ie, John Bolton) will only increase..

It's looking like he's going to go the way of Taliban leadership in deciding not to cough up bin laden... Only Assad will not cough up the Hariri killers..

They made a bad move as Assad will...

US/Iraqi troops conclude major operation near Syrian border

Posted at 8:59pm on 23 Nov 2005

US forces and Iraqi forces say they have concluded a major counter-irregular warfare operation near the Syrian border.

The US military says 139 irregular troop and 10 US marines died in the 17-day assault targeting al Qaeda-linked militants in the restive western province of Anbar.

It says as a result of Operation Steel Curtain the border towns of Husayba, Karabila and Ubaydi have been rid of irregular troop

About 2,500 US troops reportedly took part in the operation, accompanied by about 1,000 Iraqi soldiers.

Meanwhile, a kamikaze car bomber has killed at least 17 people and wounded 28 in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk.

Iraqi officials say the attack targeted Iraqi police but the majority of the dead and wounded are Iraqi civillians.
Ps new releas has been edited by Jouth

Syria is just another paper lion ripe for collapse.
Thank God we finally taking the fight to the bastards .
No false havens or imaginary no go lines in Bush's War.
God Bless this man for his commitment to our country.
To the Troops and the cause.

Of course it's true. I just heard that Assad has asked for Jesse Jackson to help mediate a truce.

For anyone interested in Bible prophecy, I've always found this verse interesting:

Isaiah 17:1
"Behold, Damascus is to be removed from being a city and will become a fallen ruin. (modern translations have it as Damascus will one day be completely destroyed and will be left uninhabitable). Interesting footnote: archaeologists believe Damascus may be the oldest continually inhabited city in the world and there is no record in ancient history of it ever being fully destroyed.

The same chapter goes to speak of a troubled time of Israel.

I can think of only a few ways a city becomes uninhabitable: (1) N Bomb, (2) Chemical warfare, (3) Disease and famine

I'll go out on a limb and I don't believe it a stretch to say there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that now reside somewhere in Syria. Let Damascus reaps what it sows.

I hope the Marines are provoking a response by Assad. They don't physically have to cross the border to do that. Their actions can be self defense from being attacked by the other side.

Syria needs leadership change as does Iran. But the losers and quitters in Congress won't permit that. Let's get the elections behind us, and continue to probe.

Semper Fi and Happy Turkey Day USMC.

Go get 'em and take advantage of the surprise! (And take no damned prisoners as far as I'm concerned.)

OT.
I see from the sidebar of news we've reached another milestone... U.S. Nears 1,000th Execution Since 1977.

Well done, Marines, well done. Drive right into the Bekka Valley so we can see those WMD's Saddam never had, thank you very much.

Now I must go, Lifetime is showing "Steel Magnolias" and if there's anything a girl needs for Thanksgiving, it's to grow another vagina. Cause that's what this damn movie does to everyone.

Whaaat? Steel Magnolias...grow another one? ONE vagina is ENOUGH!

If Russia invaded Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?

Happy turkey hunting and Happy Thanksgiving Marines!

# 62 L

Strangely, they don't call it a **grim** milestone ...
:-)

Just had to post this item:

QAIM, Iraq (AP) -- Huddling together in the cold, U.S. Marines of the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion spoke Thursday about missing family and friends back home for Thanksgiving while on patrol near the Syrian border.

The Marines are scouting the remote, desert area along the border looking for smugglers and foreign fighters trying to slip into the country from Syria.

The area, one of the most dangerous in Iraq, was the scene of brisk fighting this month, as Marines drove insurgents out of three towns near Qaim, 200 miles northwest of Baghdad.

"Serving my country is important but losing friends makes me more thankful for what I have and for what I used to take for granted," said Cpl. Brian Zwart, 20, of Fruitport, Michigan.

Zwart mans a 25mm canon atop an armored personnel carrier.

Actually it's callse a Light Armored Vehicle. Stop by and visit the guys in my old unit:
1st Light Armored Infantry (now 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance) Battalion.

Semper fi.

#44 mich.manatee

I'll grant that Rumsfeld has been at times brilliant, and deserves much credit for our military successes since 9/11.

At the same time, he's got this blind faith in Buck Rogers technology that he firmly believes will forever replace "boots on the ground", and in order to validate his doctrine has kept troop levels far below what they should have been to keep the Iraqi borders from leaking like a sieve.

I'm a big fan of technology--hell, it's how I make my living. But I've got much more faith in a division or two of hard-ass grunts than a few high-tech UAVs flying around the border areas.

NFL should use NCAA method breaking ties. It is absolutely wrong that coin flip usually determines winner.

And it appears King Abdullah of Jordan doesn't like what he sees happening around him:

Jordan calls for all-out war against militant Islam.

#56- A self-murdering, mass-murdering car bomber? Got it.

Now for Zarqawiwi...

Most likely, this isn't true BUT, we have to remember, do NOT ever count W out...or doubt his ability to lead...Above all else, never forget that he knows how to keep his mouth shut and make his decisions/plans, slowly, determind and deliberate and only when HE'S sure and ready, will he act! Having said that, I would not be one bit surprised if this were true or will be in the very short future.

As our President would and did say..."Wanted Dead Or Alive...Bring It On"!

He may not be perfect, but he's the best person for this job that I've seen in my considerable lifetime and he has my faith and respect...and as long as he's there, I feel pretty darn safe. Any man who can continue to do his job and keep those vile animals from hitting us again with the constant crap he's had aimed at him since day 1...BOTH hands tied behind his back and the non stop lies and hate directed at him daily, is one hellofaGOODMAN and one I deeply respect him AND his ability. That goes for Sec. Rummy also!

Hope you all had a wonderful day. Me...I'm drinking Alka-Seltzer by the gallon! LOL

:)

# 70 Ed

Ideally, yes, I would like to see that method (Michigan high schools used to and still may utilize a similar method)-- however, I have little sympathy for a team that gives up a 50+ yard play from scrimmage anytime during a game ...

#70 Ed

I would think they'd pull in more ad revenue as well.

Ed (#70)

Science News Online has an interesting analysis (click here) that suggests that it is not that strong an effect. 52% of OT games from 1974-2003 were won by the team that won the coin toss. They go on to suggest that moving the kickoff to the 30 yard line made that number higher than it would have been. Perhaps returning the kick to the 35, or even the 40, at the start of OT would be all that is necessary to eliminate the impact of the luck of the toss.

#62 Lively

I see from the sidebar of news we've reached another milestone... U.S. Nears 1,000th Execution Since 1977.

Will Tookie Williams be number 1,000?

Gov. Bill Richardson is coming clean on his draft record the baseball draft, that is, admitting that his claim to have been a pick of the Kansas City A's in 1966 was untrue. For nearly four decades, Richardson has maintained he was drafted by the Kansas City Athletics.

"After being notified of the situation and after researching the matter ... I came to the conclusion that I was not drafted by the A's," he said.

#70 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

NFL should use NCAA method breaking ties. It is absolutely wrong that coin flip usually determines winner.

Seconded. A great idea, like the shootout in the NHL.

It's been said so many times before

"Killem all and let G_d sort em out"

Thank You US Marines

Well, any confirmation from any non-DEbka source?

#81 Ed

Nothing on Fox News, CNN or MSNBC...

# 82 S N

I'd like to think JPost or Haaretz would say something before they ever would...

"Nothing on Fox News, CNN or MSNBC... "

Haven't gotten their moveon talking points yet.

the Marines are likely just going to a "wedding party" in Syria

#81 ed

There's nothing on AP or al-Reuters, but I did find a nice article on Al Jazeera calling us the 21st century Nazis.

Speaking of Grim Milestones.

How about this one.

George Clooneys 31st movie.

greenmamba:
This is just my impression in that I have not kept stats; since their new format, Debka's "news" items - i.e. anything that will be proven or disproven soon - have been quite accurate. Items that are of a forecasting nature, less so. Maybe 50/50 but as I said, I have not kept stats.

Maybe you are right, I remember several times they were wrong, but those were related to long-term predictions. Let us see how this will come out.

 #87

hous bin pharteen  11/24/2005 05:24PM PST

Speaking of Grim Milestones.
How about this one.
George Clooneys 31st movie.

That is grim. :{

Burka "Barbie Doll"

O.T.

O. Jeez,

Mary Mapes on Orielly defending Cindy Sheehan.

"The Iranian explanation is laughable and not credible. It's classified information. It's about metallurgy and how to machine uranium successfully into spheres for a nuclear weapon,"

A European diplomat pointed out that the Internet did not even exist at the time Iran got the documents.

Gregory Schulte, U.S. ambassador to the IAEA, told reporters: "This is not information Iran downloaded from the Internet. This is information that they obtained, according to the IAEA, from a nuclear trafficking network that has provided a nuclear weapons design to at least one other country (Libya)."

Iran says it received the documents from an illicit procurement network linked to disgraced Pakistani nuclear scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan, whose agents met with Iranian officials in 1987 while the Iran-Iraq war was raging.

Tehran says it wants only civilian energy from its nuclear development program.

It acknowledges hiding potentially weapons-related technology from U.N. inspectors for 18 years until 2003 but says it was given these particular documents without having requested them and did nothing with them.

A European diplomat questioned Iran's claim to transparency and said Iran had claimed for months it had received only a one-page offer after the 1987 meeting with agents of Khan before it suddenly said it had found a large box of documents.

I dunno, but reading the iranian official explanation of suddenly finding a whole box of classified doscuments reminds me of Hilary Clinton suddenly finding the Rose Law firm billing records in the WH living quarters. Shazaam!
/Hilary and the mullahs are equally believable.

@87 hous bin pharteen

Now, that is grim!

#44 Mich.manatee 11/24/2005 03:58PM PST

"Dumsfeld," as you call him, will be remembered as the greatest Secretary of Defense of all time. He has:

Nobody is perfect: Especially Dumbsfeld.

Permit me to suggest that Dummy has:

-Continued to suggest significant base closures during a time of war -- some of which (e.g., Ellsworth AFB) even the BRAC Commission could not swallow.

-Stubbornly refused to increase troop levels in Iraq to necessary levels to implement occupation following the (admittedly brillant) invasion. (By the way: Shinseki was presciently more "brilliant" than Dummy on this issue.)

-Implemented (or permitted his generals to implement) policies and rules of engagement that handcuff our troops in Iraq, while hurting their morale. (Troops have been read their rights for as little as unholstering their weapons during the questioning of detainees.)

-Implemented (or permitted his generals to implement) absurdly aggressive prosecution of troops for "detainee abuse" that is -- in many cases -- no worse than what (in an earlier day) was routinely meted out to US troops during basic training. A recent study released in England indicated that the double threat to coalition forces of trying to avoid death at the hands of the terrorists, on the one hand, and discipline or arrest by coalition authorities, on the other, has raised stress levels on coalition troops to unacceptable levels.

-Permitted his generals to continue to authorize the embedding of reporters whose stories are clearly detrimental to troop morale.

-Permitted his generals to use men to clear houses in house-to-house urban-combat settings (at an unnecessarily high cost in casualties) when those buildings could have been safely flattened by either artillery for aircraft.

-Permitted his generals to require, during the retaking of Fallujah, US Army artillery officers to seek higher-headquarters approval prior to shelling mosques being actively used as firing stations against our troops.

-Permitted his generals to implement a policy in Iraq whereby no soldier above the rank of E-6 can be disciplined without a prior review of said disciplinary action by command staff in Baghdad. (This is called micromanagement with a capital "M.")

-Refused to properly use airpower to flatten chronically rebellious urban areas -- with Ar-Ramadi being current example number one. (I am not against civilians being given several days to evacuate ahead of the bombing.) We have been losing men in Ar-Ramadi for about two years now.

-Refused to address Syria's and Iran's active support for the terrorists. What is being done at the Syrian border now is about two years overdue. Nothing has been done to Syria or Iran thus far. Men's lives are being lost: This is not a diplomatic technicality.

In short, I stand by my original post.

Come on Mr Dumbsfeld, drop the Marquis de Queensbury rules, take the gloves off, fire some generals, and start prosecuting this war like we mean it.

The "reality" of war in the middle east is the same as the reality of war anywhere else: Adequate force directed against the enemy brings victory. Hesitancy of purpose, on the other hand, loses lives abroad and support at home. The alarming loss of support for the war at home is largely due to Dumbsfeld's approach to handling the occupation. The American people are not impressed with the intricacies of "nation building." They want the enemy subdued -- now.

@95 Rayra

Another one rayra-ized!

/you adorable cutie you! :)

24OLGA24

PETA will be pissed the crows got MRE's...btw, Happy Thanksgiving to the kid!

I think NFL tie-breaker, sucks.

best way, just play regular football until a team takes a greater than 8 point lead, or a quarter ends with one team ahead, no matter how many quarters that takes.

NCAA system isn't perfect, but starting drive deep in defender's territory, with other team having a chance to answer, works for me as well, and the requirement on 3rd overtime that each team goes for 2 on PAT would likely keep game from dragging forever,

@97 dumbgunjam

You seem to have left out the relevant fact that Rumsfeld is Not the CIC, George Bush is.

Where's rayra?

O.T.

No matter what she says or does, Mary Mapes can not escape this.

Well, I think perhaps Rumsfeld didn't plan the post-invasion period as well as he should have, and, in restrospect, more men in theater would have helped. Of course, if Turkey hadn't pulled out the rug on a Northern Front a lot of that wouldn't have mattered.

But, Rumsfeld has made dozens, maybe hundreds, of important decisions, thousands of lesser decisions, maybe he blew one or two. But I'll go out on a limb and say you'd have to go back to Cap Weinberger to find a SecDef who has done as well.

God bless our troops. Keep them safe.

AND, Let our men kick ass -- take the chinless one apart and let that cowardly terrorist POS know what honorable troops can accomplish.

I made a point in our Thanksgiving words to remember and respect the sacrifice of our brave men and women in the service for allowing us to celebrate this day in safety.

It means even more now that I have learned this.

Would you prefer a Les Aspin type?

iran digs in its heels

Sunday, Nov. 20, 2005. Parliament approved a bill on Sunday that requires the government to block intrusive inspections of Iran's facilities if the U.N. nuclear agency refers the Iranian program to the U.N. Security Council.

Of course, in Rummy's defense, Clinton's "Peace Dividend" came about through, literally, more than decimating the military.

As it was, the media had a cow over Guardsmen and Reservists who were called up. Perhaps if Clinton hadn't gutted the military Rumsfeld might have had better resources to win the post-invasion war.

Wasn't General Shiunui (spelling?) a Clinton Admin. political hack, advanced for loyalty- his noises about insufficient manning may have been motivated as much by trying to stop the war as win the peace. Just a thought.

#97 gunjam

Everything you list is a decision made by the President, not Rumsfeld. Bush decided how we were going to fight this war. Now I don't agree with a lot of it, but is foolish to blame Rumsfeld for carrying out the President's orders.

# 107 Ed

Gen. Shineski (from out here in "Cali West" doncha know) was widely considered a politician 1st and a general 2nd by many soldiers and vets ..
:-(

Anyone else disappointed that none of the big four (W, Cheny, Rumsfeld, or Rice) spent Thanksgiving in Iraq? I think it would've been a good idea to send Cheney, esp after the way he went after the defeatists over the last week or so. Lieberman was in Baghdad on Wed--maybe they didn't want to steal what little thunder he has.

#107 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

Of course, in Rummy's defense, Clinton's "Peace Dividend" came about through, literally, more than decimating the military.

Odd, isn't it, how the Kossacks and other Dem shitbirds were strutting around bragging at the time how it was "Clinton's Military" that conquered Baghdad in less than a month...

Tell it like it is. Troop levels are lower than needed because Bush, et al, want no part of a draft. I hope the next Pres. has more courage to face this reality.

As someone who was in the military between 1977 and 1999 I can assure you that the drawdown started long before Slick became Prez. Remember that the Wall came down in Nov 1989 due to Reagan (peace be upon him) and Thatcher. Even when we were deploying 7th Corps from Germany for the 1st Gulf War other units were being deactivated. You can argue to what degree Slick overdid it but let's not put all the blame on him (let's say 85% or so) on what happened to the military. With the demise of the Evil Empire and the Warsaw Pact we just didn't need the military that Reagan built.

Clinton's weapons procurement plan.

#112 Far Sparkle Charles Rangle

I hope the next Pres. has more courage to face this reality.

What "reality" is that?

112 YOU'RE AN IDIOT. Now go back to your socialist collective and tell them the bad man made you stop.

Tell 'em, Rayra! Then we have the dumbasses cryin' for a draft who do not seem to understand that you have to have the infrastructure of NCOs and officers in place to guide the new inductees. Well, guess what, they were cut too. Unfortunately the military doesn't have any senior NCOs freeze-dried in little packets that can be reconstituted by adding water. Not even in area 51 with all the alien technology.

112 Far Sparkle

Nobody who has ever been active duty or gaurd/reserve wants anything to do with a draft.

A draft would mean dealing with idiots. Get the message?

Thank You for not serving.

#116 reaganite 11/24/2005 06:06PM PST
#112 Far Sparkle Charles Rangle

I hope the next Pres. has more courage to face this reality.
What "reality" is that?

Must be that alternate reality I'm always hearing about.

#116 Reaganite:

Face the present reality of an ongoing conflict with the Mooslims. Don't think that Iraq is the end of it. There is an inbred need by the geehaadists for turmoil and conflict. Look the world over. See the killings? See the mooslims. Where will we be in this picture? Will we go into Syria and/or Iran if we need to? Can the proper decision be made without sufficient troops? Call a universal draft and get the US population patriotic, like WWII.

Why are we taking any casualties in this dust-up? Can’t we just surround the place and JDAM them to oblivion? Then we count how many bad guys we got. My guess would be 100%.

didn't plan the post-invasion period as well as he should have

That statement is one of the biggest left-wing red herrings out there.

I doubt very seriously if there was even an attempt to plan the post-invasion period beyond pre-staging equipment and capabilities that you know you are going to need eg civil engineers, medical, MP's, basic services.

There are two basic methods of planning; deliberative and crisis action. (Each service calls the two methods by different names, I personally prefer the USMC crisis planning method R2P2. Rapid Response Planning Process.)

Anyway, in order to develop any contingency plan or course of action (COA) you have to know what the situation is. That's where the S in SMEAC comes from. Situation, Mission, Execution, Admin, C2.

There was no way we could have known what the situation was until after the op (OIF). Sure, we wargamed different pre-op scenarios but I would be willing to bet that the decision was to crisis plan the post-war period.

That's where the problem lies, fucked up post-op planning/decisons, not any poor pre-op planning.

Gunjam has it exactly right, it is the post-op planning/decisions that have sucked. It's like we forgot all the lessons of Clauswitz, Sun Tzu, DS and the actual op itself. And Rumsfield has been at the helm for those decisions.

Fight the fucking war the way it is supposed to be fought...

In the most violent manner possible.

#121 BignJames

Must be that alternate reality I'm always hearing about.

Some bizarro world no doubt.

#122 Far Sparkle
FOAD Moby.

#124 irregulum
Another Moby? What, is it psycho day on LGF?

#120 Scotch

Nobody who has ever been active duty or gaurd/reserve wants anything to do with a draft.

A draft would mean dealing with idiots. Get the message?

Thank You for not serving.

Yeah, my husband was in (volunteer) when there were draftees. He was less than impressed with the quality, shall we say. Oh, I'm sure the majority straightened up and became adequate soldiers eventually.

FYI ... to those who like to insult without any knowledge:
1) There was a draft when I went into service.
2) I volunteered in war time.
3) I was wounded, and later Honorably discharged.

#128 Rayra 11/24/2005 06:18PM PST

Thank you, sir!

131 Far Sparkle

Then why in hell would you want to deal with that situation again?

@130 swampwoman

MrQuark was regular army, he knows all about having to be round those sucked in kicking and screaming draftees too. Like you say though, most of them come round and do serve well.
But at first their attitudes really sucked bad.

#135 quark2 11/24/2005 06:23PM PST

Draftees in basic = rocks with ears.

Can anyone remember the "Citizen Soldiers" who were DRAFTED, and WON WWII?
Are we really better off with Mercenaries?

130 SwampWoman

I don't and haven't known any mil/former mil people in favor of a draft. That's going back trhu the last 26 years.

Swampman knows.

#137 Rayra

Stinks like ambergris.

And nodroG says he's a republican.

#139 Far Sparkle

Are we really better off with Mercenaries?

WTF are you talking about, Moby?

#135 Quark2

MrQuark was regular army, he knows all about having to be round those sucked in kicking and screaming draftees too. Like you say though, most of them come round and do serve well.
But at first their attitudes really sucked bad.

I never had to deal with draftees but husband says they were the quintessential "ugly American" overseas. He was embarrassed by their attitude and lack of respect.

/Again, I'm sure not everybody was like that; people just have a tendency to remember the real a**holes.

And nodroG says he's a republican

hahahahahahahahahhhah...yeah right

#128 rayra

I respect you brother, but ROE and targeting do NOT come out of the State Department.

Vietnam probably being an exception.

#144 greenmiler

hahahahahahahahahhhah...yeah right

He really did make that claim.

#122 Far Sparkle

? Call a universal draft and get the US population patriotic, like WWII.

You need to study some history. The left was very much against us getting into WWII until Hitler attacked Russia.

#139 Far Sparkle

Can anyone remember the "Citizen Soldiers" who were DRAFTED, and WON WWII?

Some who were declared 4-F comitted suicide because they could not serve.

Are we really better off with Mercenaries?

An E-4 makes about $25K. They volunteer now, by the way, and it's not for the money.

Back away from the bong.

Or volunteer tomorrow to start earning oh, maybe $21K.

#139 Fart Sparklet

Are we really better off with Mercenaries?

I saw today that Cindy Al Shenan had crawled out from under a rock, now we have proof.

#139 While I would love to see some sort of compulsory national service (all 18 year olds for two years, no deferments), wouldn't you agree that there is no comparison between the social/educational/political situation of today with 1940? That generation of young people was taught that this country, with all of it's faults, was worth defending; today's youth is taught that we are the source of all evil in the world. I am frankly amazed that with all the anti-American propaganda spewed out by our own media and educational system that we are able to maintain the numbers that we are. Bringing a bunch of 18 yr olds who aren't even willing to do volunteer work in their own communities into the military would be a disaster.

#148 Engineer
You got that ass-backwards. First let me tell you, I was alive during that period. It was the Right, the Republicans who insisted "No involvement in foreign wars." And then after Pearl Harbor, they SHUT UP!

#147 Rayra

I'll say it again. The the post April 9 situation in IRaq was NOT the sole domain of Runsfeld - his detractors conveniently forget / ignore the raft of news stories about the strife between he and Powell - just WTF do you suppose that strife was about?! Do you somehow imagine it was about RUMSFELD being too SOFT?
LOL

*Sitting here imagining Rumsfeld attempting to run a soft and sensitive war*

How 'bout that, my imagination DOES have limits.

146- nodrog is slightly left of Kerry lol

"Stay alert, stay alive and good hunting. Dismissed." -- Lee Adama, CAG, Battlestar Galactica

@152

My father volunteered at the age of 17 right after Pearl Harbour. And as to who shut up, the majority of the country at that time (left and right) did not want a repeat of WWI. The republicans who were screeching shutup because of the
attack on Pearl.

139

Judging from your post, I would say obviously so.

am frankly amazed that with all the anti-American propaganda spewed out by our own media and educational system that we are able to maintain the numbers that we are.

liberal MSM is 90% of media, 90% academia including K-12 is liberal and they can't even break 50% in elections.. Brainwashing isn't effective

#152 Please remember that in 1941 the draft was re-newed by one vote in the heavily Democratic House (267 Dems/162 Repubs). It wasn't just the Repubs who were leery about getting involved in Europe.

#147 rayra

Dude, I have children that have served in Iraq and at the DMZ. Maybe you would shed your knee jerk defense of Rumsfield if you actually had a personal stake in how those desicisons played out. HMMM

But no, you just pontificate about how Rummy did not have full control of the decision making process . He is the SECDEF for chrissakes, if some other department secretary is usurping his authority...resign.

By the way, I don't hate Rumsfield...I respect him greatly...but nobody is perfect.

#153 SwampWoman

Rummy soft?

Is that like "Michael Savage in Heels"?

/Read on LGF this a.m. in reference to Ann Coulter and I loved it!

Are we really better off with Mercenaries?

pos doesn't do him justice

#152 Sparkle

Go Google "German American Bund" that is a good place to start, but they were only one of the groups.

However, I DO think this Nation sorely needs some mandatory National Service. I don't care if it's as a tutor, a teacher, a highway builder, or as a Soldier, EVERY citizen of this Nation should have a required period of service from 18-20yrs of age. We already have an increasingly prolonged adolescence in this Nation. The discipline and life-lessons of such service would be highly beneficial to the Nation as a whole, and to most individuals.

Thank you, sir. You are absolutely right.

ray rah and grim miler:

To quote a famous line:

"I fart in your direction."

nodrog got another nic

Why can't we just bomb Iran and and get the whole problem over. Unlike the Clintons, let's show them who's boss.

#169 Rayra

Kee-rist, this one's going to be a HUGE waste of time.

By it's claims, it's at least 65 years old. And it's farting in your direction.

#170 greenmiler

nodrog got another nic

Nah, it's just some banned troll who got back in when Charles reopened registration the other day.

Farkle Sparkle?

Far Sparkle

You claim you served
You claim you volunteered

And you now equate our all volunteer force with mercenaries?

Am I understanding you correctly?

#173 J.D. 11/24/2005 06:55PM PST
Farkle Sparkle?

B.O. Plenty.

rayra - as you no doubt are aware.

There are two kinds of ROE. Standing ROE (SROE) that has not changed in years. Then there are specific ROE's for various ops.

If Rumsfield allowed Powell and Bremer to influence the specific mission ROE development process then he should have resigned yesterday. Unless of course he agreed with Powell and Bremer. In that case, he should have resigned yesterday also.

#171 mattm

Why can't we just bomb Iran and and get the whole problem over. Unlike the Clintons, let's show them who's boss.

Because we are trying to reform Islam, not kill 20% of the human race.

some people you don't have to expose as jackasses; they do a fine job without our help

Re; Congress in 1940

Going into the 1942 election, Franklin Roosevelt and the Democratic Party targeted 115 isolationist Republicans for defeat in Congress. They defeated only five. Democrats lost 55 House seats and 9 Senate seats in 1942—the fourth worst off-year election drubbing of the entire 20th century,

[Link: www.ashbrook.org...]

#178 greenmiler

some people you don't have to expose as jackasses; they do a fine job without our help

You got that right.

#113 Rayra

You are onto a topic dear to my heart -

All along, the need was to increase or military power, without the hassle of Congressional Force Strength Increase authorizations - in essence, doing more with less. Technology was an AID to that end, NOT the driving factor...

It was that same desire to turn around the ratio of Fighters vs Clerks that brought about the surge in 'outsourcing' that the LLLefties foam about ('no-bid' contracts, KBR kitchens etc). IT was overall cheaper to the Pentagon to pay for kitchen staff from a contractor, than emply, train and pension a military cook. The LLLiars have deliberately miscast this as deliberate "Military-Industrial Complex Fatcats lining their pockets"[spit]

It's not just 'outsourcing'. It's not just 'doing more with less'.

The fact of the matter is that they are doing more with more $$$. The civil service guys may cost less than military for the same work (despite the horrible wages that have been published), contractors certainly cost more. The force strength authorization is key in that it only counts military personnel. It does not count $$$, or non-military personnel, or civilian personnel, or 'civilian-military personnel' [yeah, that is a real term that is being used].

It is a given that our military is all-volunteer. It is a given that virtually all Marines are combat arms.
It is hoped that by using contractors and 'civilian-military' that we can get enough Army volunteers for combat arms to fill the re-enlistment and recruitment quoto and convert all the CS and CSS functions to contractors and 'civilian-military'.

Problem is that you can only hire contractor's for non-government functions, all functions governmental must be military, or civil servants, or this new 'civilian-military', and the civilian POSITIONS are individually defined as being 'emergency essential'

Out of 800,000+ civil servants only about 2000 are E-E. A couple of thousand doesn't make much of an impact in converting all authorized regular military slots into combat arms, does it?

To make problems worse, even the E-E guys are to be removed form theator and replaced with regular military ASAP (para 4.2). [Too bad the Administration (and press) hasn't figured out that a basic function of the military is to get civilians out of harms way]

How do you deal with that? Abolish the DoD civil service system, all specific positions, and make the civil servants 'civilian military'. [NSPS]

quark 157

my father was at pearl harbor and he was only 16 at the time. I wish we were Half as good as that generation. He was not drafted he enlisted.

Get in there and kick ass big time. Swinging assad on the end of a rope would be a great start to hostilities with syria.

Being the contrarian that I am.

Wasn't the "Greatest Generation" a bunch of draftees?

#184 sailordude 11/24/2005 07:06PM PST
Being the contrarian that I am.

Wasn't the "Greatest Generation" a bunch of draftees?

About 65% IIRC.

DOD Recruiting numbers released Oct. 11, 2005

Slightly OT, but two positive articles from these guys in as many weeks - did a Senior editor recently retire?. Iraq's A Lost Cause? Lots of interesting info in here including:

"...in a survey last month from the U.S.-based International Republican Institute, 47% of Iraqis polled said their country was headed in the right direction, as opposed to 37% who said they thought that it was going in the wrong direction. And 56% thought things would be better in six months. Only 16% thought they would be worse."

and;
"There are also positive economic indicators that receive little or no coverage in the Western media. For all the insurgents' attempts to sabotage the Iraqi economy, the Brookings Institution reports that per capita income has doubled since 2003 and is now 30% higher than it was before the war. Thanks primarily to the increase in oil prices, the Iraqi economy is projected to grow at a whopping 16.8% next year. According to Brookings' Iraq index, there are five times more cars on the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day, five times more telephone subscribers and 32 times more Internet users.

The growth of the independent media — a prerequisite of liberal democracy — is even more inspiring. Before 2003 there was not a single independent media outlet in Iraq. Today, Brookings reports, there are 44 commercial TV stations, 72 radio stations and more than 100 newspapers."

#184 sailordude

Wasn't the "Greatest Generation" a bunch of draftees?

IIRC, about 60%

I wish we were Half as good as that generation.

Thankfully, some of us are.

Wasn't the "Greatest Generation" a bunch of draftees?

See #182 - I doubt Yochanan's Dad was...
I seem to recall stories about recruitment stations being stampeded... but maybe I'm wrong.

"...Anglophobic Republicans..."

The comment I had to correct was about lefties opposing the war (in Europe.) But you citation, Priester guy, clearly states ..."Anglophobic Republicans..." Further, was the loss of seats in a mid-term election a reaction to the New Deal economy? Or to the War?
While I am not a leftie, and I am not defending them, per se, let's be telling truth here!

#147 Rayra:

Sorry to turn this into an intellectual/academic discussion, but...

Another one who's too busy hating Rumsfeld to note that he doesn't operate in a vacuum. And WORSE, sailordude horribly mixes apples and oranges while trying to disparage him - just what the HELL do Sun Tzu and Clausewitz have to do with food, water and blankets? I've read their works, and it's about crushing your enemy, NOT tending their wounds.

Clausewitz is not about crushing one's enemy. Never has been, despite the oversimplified criticisms levelled at his theories. In fact, Clausewitz should be rolling in his grave considering that Rumsfeld et. al. (and Rice especially!) are self-identified neo-Clausewitzians! They should have known that they'd be engaging in a "3-Block War" kind of affair in Iraq, a highly political and difficult kind of war to carry out, and one whose aftermath could have been better planned for had they read their Clausewitz. Especially where he discusses how each war is fought differently depending on the political objectives and considerations that surround it.

#191 Far Sparkle

let's be telling truth here!

Truth? I'm not sure you know what that is.

Who are the mercenaries you are spewing about?

I've always had the feeling this thing is just beginning and now is not the time to start drawing down troops...

Are we really better off with Mercenaries?

No they we're not a bunch of draftees; there were many who volounteered. thats beside the point though. what is assinine is equate volounteer as mercenary. whether you are drafted or volounteered you got paid the same. A mercenary is one who fights and kills for anyone for any reason as long as he is paid enough. To equate that to volounteer US military is so dumbass it doesn't even deserve a response.

#191 Where did I ever use the term "Anglophobic Republicans"?

#197 Prester John 11/24/2005 07:16PM PST
#191 Where did I ever use the term "Anglophobic Republicans"?

The only thing worse is Republiphobic Anglicans.

to damascus!

searia

Here Rayra, use this...

@192 Heavy Josh

Unless folks like Rumsfeld or Powell (sec of state at the time) could predict the future, there's no way to plan in concrete. The situation in Iraq was an unknown.

@190 killer tomato

In the summer of 2004 the commandant of West Point read the reports/analysis of the incoming
recruits and according to the end results we are indeed seeing another group serving their country as another "greatest generation".

#199 I used to be an Republophile Anglican until the Church left me. Which of course in most (but not all) circles is better than being a Pedophile Anglican.

Pester Johnnie:
You listed a citation in your comment...citing the Democratic election losses in 1942. I went to that site (Ashland college?) and read the whole article. In that citation, in that article, which you thought enough of to use to backup your argument, THE AUTHOR, used the term Anglophobic Republicans!

Agoraphobic Republicans?

Steel Curtain update

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Nov. 23--American and Iraqi forces have killed more than 700 suspected insurgents in less than two months during operations in western Iraq, the US military said on Wednesday, calling the result “very successful“.
Major General Rick Lynch, a spokesman for US forces in Iraq, said that as well as those killed, 1,500 suspects had been detained, including an undisclosed number of foreign fighters, and more than 200 weapons caches discovered, Reuters reported.
“It’s been very successful,“ Lynch told a briefing in Baghdad, referring to a series of security offensives conducted by US and Iraq forces in Anbar province since Sept. 28.
Over the same period, the US military has lost more than 170 troops in Iraq, including 80 in Anbar.
Many of the operations in western Iraq, including the largest, dubbed “Steel Curtain“, have been supported by aerial bombardments by US warplanes.

Far Sparkle

We're still waiting for clarification on that mercenary thing you were talking about.

Those Brits scare me to death...especially that Prince Charles character.

*shudder*

/anglophobic Republican

Fart Sparkle is a Kos Kiddie, any takers?

#203:

Unless folks like Rumsfeld or Powell (sec of state at the time) could predict the future, there's no way to plan in concrete. The situation in Iraq was an unknown.

Sorry, I wasn't insisting that Rumsfeld or Powell (also a big fan of Clausewitz!) be able to predict the future. But the 3-Block War doctrine has been around for over ten years and really, what were they expecting? That there wouldn't be an insurgency sponsored by Syria and Iran, fuelled by muslim fundamentalism?

That's the kind of optimism that has no place in the White House.

dyslexic agnostic insomniac- lays awake at night wondering if there really is a dog

#206 Amalie 11/24/2005 07:27PM PST
Agoraphobic Republicans?

Agriphobic Republicans?

Or acrophobic Republicans...

Touche if you like. I was using the article to note the election results. My point was to take issue with your assertion that

It was the Right, the Republicans who insisted "No involvement in foreign wars."

If you combine the fact that there were 115 "isolationist" Repubs targeted in 1942, and that the draft was renewed in August 1941 by ONE vote by a House that was 267-162 Dems to Repubs, the only conclusion you can draw is that alot of people on both sides of the aisles were extremely leery of getting involved in the War.

NOTE: After looking at the official House site the 1942 election changed things from 267 to 162 in favor of the Dems to 222 to 209. A net loss of 45, not 55,

RE: Mercenaries...
When we need more "boots on the ground," to fight in Syria and/or Iran, where are we going to get more men if not a draft? Mercenaries?
Read again what I wrote. I did not impune our fighting men. But your interpretation of what I said says a lot about your mind(s.)

#210

Just gimme a minute here - I gotta see what the magic 8 ball says...

This is long overdue.

#216 Far Sparkle

When we need more "boots on the ground," to fight in Syria and/or Iran, where are we going to get more men if not a draft? Mercenaries?

Oh, you are worried about your little life. Don't worry. The frightened likes of you will never be drafted. You would be spit out.

You are safe. Others will protect you. Your role is to whine.

#216 Far Sparkle

When we need more "boots on the ground,"

Since you are advocating the draft -- IMHO:
Currently the Viet Nam era LLL's cannot get solid footing with their war protests.
They want to institute the draft. That way they will have outraged draftees filling their protest ranks.
The sick LLL's want another Viet Nam revisited.

Dear Johnnie:
I have really enjoyed reading your posts over the months when I logged on here. But, your logic is twisted. The draft passed by only one vote because we were NOT AT WAR at that time. But is is recognized in history as a courageous vote, and it went a long way to get us ready to fight in a war that was considered inevetable, given the activities of the Japanese in China and the Pacific, and the overrunning of Europe by the Nazis.
How do you feel about a peacetime draft these days? Do you think that we are still facing an inevitable conflict with the geehaadists and the countries that foster and support them?

#220 Ann

When we need more "boots on the ground," to fight in Syria and/or Iran, where are we going to get more men if not a draft? Mercenaries

I guess he hasn't figured out that our women are pretty good too.

I'm a arachnophobic Republican.

@220 Ann

Oh s/he can't be drafted, it was alive and well aware during Pearl Harbour!

#198 rayra

I never called you names.

You (and others on this blog) start the name calling when you get exposed as pontificators.

Two points, as I tire of this pointless discussion.

1. While you were "trying to get transferred to GWI", I was there. I spent half my life (and I am 47) at sea on surface ships. You sir, are a classic "chickenhawk".

2. Read up on SROE and ROE. You really do not know what you are talking about. Additionally, there are only two decision makers when it comes to the commitment and employment of the US armed forces, together they are known as the NCA; POTUS and SECDEF. Google it. Learn something. Everybody else is an advisor. I know very well what the purpose of the US Military is. I spent 23 years in one branch and currently work as a civilian in another branch.

Maybe other LGFer's bow down to you, but I do not.

Punk.

Oh man, Charles opened registration again!

@223

This country was not put onto a war footing until after the attack on Pearl Harbour.
We were not prepared for war before that fact.

#210 reaganite 11/24/2005 07:28PM PST
Fart Sparkle is a Kos Kiddie, any takers?

After his #216...no.

A question ain't really a question if you know the answer.

@227 sailordude

I never called you names.

You just did.

quark2

It only claims volunteered during war time when there was a draft.

Could be Korea or Viet Nam.

I'm certain that if it wants, it could clarify our understanding.

I mean, if it uses small words so that us common folk could understand.

Wow, Rayra is a "chickenhawk". Just wow.

This is going to get interesting.

#232 Village Idiot's Apprentice

It only claims volunteered during war time when there was a draft.

It also claims it was alive in 1941.

#224 Village Idiot's Apprentice

I guess he hasn't figured out that our women are pretty good too.

He is scared to death that he will actually have to give back to this society that has afforded him every opportunity. He has had choices, and f*cked every opportunity that he had.

It's society's fault, not his.

Strong women probably scare him too, but that's beside the point.

#230 BignJames

A question ain't really a question if you know the answer.

It was rhetorical. :-Þ

RE: Mercenaries...
When we need more "boots on the ground," to fight in Syria and/or Iran, where are we going to get more men if not a draft? Mercenaries?
Read again what I wrote

Can anyone remember the "Citizen Soldiers" who were DRAFTED, and WON WWII?
Are we really better off with Mercenaries?

#237 easy
Now easy, you're not actually allowed to quote the trolls. They get upset...

@232 VIA

So, we await with abated breath. :)

@233 reaganite

You get the beer, I'll get the popcorn. :)

#226 quark2

Oh s/he can't be drafted, it was alive and well aware during Pearl Harbour!

Idiots avoiding their families from their basement bedrooms!

And it's listening to Iron Maiden right now, wanting to just curl up in the bed that Daddy provides for his sorry ass.

#240 quark2

You get the beer, I'll get the popcorn. :)

No popcorn for me, I'm still full of turkey and pumpkin pie!

Cleaning up Syria is long overdue. I suppose the Democrats will be howling in unison from their yachts and the French Riviera.

I wonder how history would have changed if everyone on Flight 93 had been a Democrat?
(Let's make nice nice with the poor misguided oppressed Moslem boys...)

@241 Ann

Well you know that cock roaches don't like the light of day, they prefer dark holes. *lol

@242 reaganite

Beer is like jello, you've always got room for more! :)

#113 rayra

Call it horseshit if you want, but my opinion is similar to that of a lot of other troops when I retired in January this year. No, I'm not a battle-hardened Army or Marine grunt, but I spent a combined 27 years active and reserve time in the Air Force.

I'm familiar with, and am a believer in, force multipliers. It's a fact that Rumsfeld's vision for a revamped military relies on a wide array of technology as force multipliers to keep troop strength to a level that's acceptable to congress and to the public.

His theories worked exceedingly well in planning and executing the invasion of Iraq, but who'd have thought we'd actually need more troops on the ground after the initial objectives were accomplished?

I'm not a Rumsfeld or Bush basher. I give thanks every day that we don't have a moonbat Democrat in office now, and I certainly resent being tossed into the same category as "clueless" LLLers.

#245 quark2

Beer is like jello, you've always got room for more! :)

It actually took me about 30 minutes to drink one beer after dinner. I'm better now...

#237 easy WWII Draft Numbers Info Interesting WWII draft figures.

@243 antiquebob

Many on that flight were democrats, it didn't stop them from dying. Sadly the left hasn't
got this point yet.

#248 wee fury
easy was quoting Fart Sparkle.

#16
the jury is out on this story for at least 12 hours.
It is after all
Debka...

12 hour rule... LOL

Past reports on Debka 11/20/05...see below

Debka.com was right on with both the reports that posted on the site (please find them below to refresh what was said). Generally Debka is a good source for news before it breaks on cable or the big 3. Debka does provide good info MOST of the time. There was much chatter/tip/intel about the probability of Zarqawi being in the building. When you balance that tip/intel against the response by the enemy (how hard they fight back) it generally points to an HVT or probable intel within the target house that may lead to additional targets of opportunity (these f=ers don't blow themselves up unless they are achieving a goal like stopping intel from falling into our hands). This one gets the 12 Day Rule to allow time to dig through the house and the info to get to us.

Regarding the current Debka report, I've got some pals get'n dirty in Iraq, some in the "Wild West". No response to Turkey Day wishes from them. No response usually means they're busy kick'n up some dust. Let's hope and pray if this is true that our Marines smoke check as many of them as they can. God speed boys.

Don't forget Christmas is around the corner, so send those care packages out to our troops ASAP.

if anyone is looking to help out the Marines on the front line and do not know how to help out, check out [Link: www.woundedwarriors.org...] click on Nov 05 news letter, Operation Santa's Helper's is in full swing. I can post the e-mail which includes the contact office at the FOB and the address to send the packages if you'd like.

Cheers
TSGMF USA

First report (turned out to be spot on)

[Link: debka.com...]

DEBKAfile Exclusive: A group of high-ranking al Qaeda leaders is surrounded by a large American force in a building in Mosul, N. Iraq.

November 20, 2005, 1:27 PM (GMT+02:00)

Our military sources report the force was led to the address by an intelligence tip.

The troops, backed by combat helicopters and tanks, are preparing to storm the building after evacuating civilians from the area

Second report...(speculation on the ground was it may be Zarqawi)

debka.com/

DEBKAfile Exclusive: US forces and forensic experts are examining the bodies of eight high-ranking al Qaeda leaders in Mosul to find out if their chief Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is among them.

November 20, 2005, 8:28 PM (GMT+02:00)

A sample of his DNA is in American possession for a match-up.

The bodies they are trying to identify are of 7 men and one woman, who blew themselves up Sunday, Nov. 20, after their hideout in northern Iraq was under siege by a large US force, backed by tanks and helicopters. The bodies are burned black and unrecognizable. Four Iraqi security officers were killed and 10 injured in the operation.

DEBKAfile’s military sources add that also Sunday, US and Iraqi forces raided al Qaeda sanctuaries in Baghdad and captured several suspects. They followed an intelligence tip which confirmed DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s disclosure (Issue 227 Oct. 28) of the arrival of Zarqawi and his top team to Baghdad on Oct. 15.
#16

I logon after Turkey for this?

OUTSTANDING!
Take 'em out.

#248 wee furry

I failed to attribute my last post. Those were not my thoughts but posts #216 and #139 from Far Sparkle.

Sorry

#250 reaganite
ooops, sorry, I apologize.
Must have been the turkey I ate.

#244 Rayra
Those are some dam impressive stats for a military fighting with one hand tied behind it's back. The second guessing and arm chair quarterbacking at every turn just makes one want to scream.

The discussion about more boots on the ground being needed should only take place after we finally let the soldiers there off the leash.

#255 wee fury

ooops, sorry, I apologize.

No need, the Kos Kiddie Fart Sparkle could use some facts. easy just pointed out more of its BS.

OK
That part of the turkey that makes me sleepy is kickin in.

Catch you all on the dead thread.

And a quick prayer for our troops tonight.

#256 metal man

The discussion about more boots on the ground being needed should only take place after we finally let the soldiers there off the leash.

That's a valid point, but does anyone think they'll ever be truly let off the leash? I think even if they were, we'd still not have enough troops to flush the rats out of all the cities and seal the borders at the same time.

And I think securing the borders to the east, west and south is the key right now. I'm not sure the border with Turkey is as much of a problem.

#259 Pierre_Legrand

Sorry for the rant...

That was no rant. Thanks for saying it.

#249 quark2:

Yes, certainly many on Flight 93 were democrats. I was only trying to make the point that the democrat leadership seems to want to unilaterally surrender, and then prosecute Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and a host of others for war crimes.

The truth is, the REAL WAR is here at home!

#259

Both of us agree that this generation of soldiers can hold their heads up high.

This great generation can get more done, with fewer troops, in less time, that the so-called Greatest Generation. Taking nothing away from those who sacrificed in WWII, saving the world from despotism, but these young men and women deserve our utmost respect for their professionalism, and thanks for our protection. If things continue, they will have saved the world from the latest / ancient version of despotism.

Hold their heads high indeed.

#263 beagle

Truer words were never spoken. I had the pleasure of chatting with a few troops at ATL a couple of weeks ago while they were enroute on their 15 day home leave, and I continue to be amazed by these guys.

I used to wonder if America was still producing the same quality of soldiers we produced in WWII, but not any more.

#263 Beagle

This great generation can get more done, with fewer troops, in less time

History will tell this.

No one has any appreciation for our current heroes.

260 flipflop

A quick calculation : 27,000,000 population/average family of say six = 4,500,000 doors to kick down to do the flushing and borders of a state the size of Texas to secure = more boots than are in existence.

There are simply not enough troops anywhere to do those jobs. We just have to work smart.

Heck, we can' secure our own borders.

#260 flipflop
There are already a lot more boots on the ground today capable of starting to secure the borders, they are the Iraqi troops. This is a job for them. The combat arms soldiers from the US need to be able to show anyone they catch fighting, that there is no magic line they can cross and be safe and there will be hell to pay.

Must eat more.

In 1965 the Marines, Navy and Army were drafting -- I joined the Air Force. I guess that makes me a draft dodger.

Many people have served, some volunteered, some were drafted, but, By G-d, THEY SERVED. And they served honorably.

Whether we need a draft or not is another discussion, but I'll be damned if anyone insults a man or woman who wore the uniform without my butting in!

G-d Bless them all!

Several of my co-workers and I 'adopted' a number of troops - we mail off a couple of packages a month. One of our 'boys' was home on leave and stopped in to thank us. When he got to my office I stood up, shook his hand and thanked him for his service, told him how grateful we are and how much we appreciate his and his comrades efforts on our behalf, and how proud we are of all of them.

Yup. I can now die happy - I actually made a Marine blush!

#270 Killer Tomato

Wonderful!

I was fortunate enough to see some guys from an Iraq combat unit on leave in Colorado awhile back.

I almost cried when I saw them - I told them they're our heroes.

Cute story: My brother was back from Iraq on leave and his wife had a fit about his drivng. He said, "Sorry, but I got used to pushing cars off the road if they get in my way."

#270 Killer Tomato
Yup. I can now die happy - I actually made a Marine blush!

Thats a tough thing to do, making a Marine blush. Good for you adopting the troops. I've got some steaks and beers to buy a few Marines when they get back here to "Dixie". I've been instructed to "have a couple" each night for them until they return. Don't think I'll make them blush, but I'm sure a few tears may flow after we crack the first bottle of gin, take the first bite of the rib eye and finish it off with a good cigar.

I hope SailorDude and Rayra step back, no matter who threw the first insult, because I think they are on the same side.

Sparkler, with his "Geehadist" sounds like a Moby, somebody here to stir ka-ka, but I could be wrong.

#271 rightasrain

Heroes is right. Here this young man has been putting his life on the line dodging bullets, and he gets back stateside and what's he do? Travels to pay a visit to a bunch of people he doesn't even know so he can thank us doing nothing more than sending junk food, paperbacks, toiletries, etc... He's lucky all I did was shake his hand instead of giving him a great big hug!

When my son came home or R&R he said they were treated like "gods" at the Dallas airport. He even got some special treatment in Austin. They appreciate the thoughts.

so he can thank us doing nothing more

so he can thank us for doing nothing more

PIMF

#275 Killer Tomato

What a wonderful story - I would have to hug you if I saw you (not to mention the soldier), probably. :)

Thanks!

I didn't hug the guys I saw, but I did touch one of them on the arm in an affectionate way. Anything more and I woulda been in tears.

They call women "Ma'am." They're sooo sweet at home! :)

#275 Killer Tomato
He's lucky all I did was shake his hand instead of giving him a great big hug!

Depending on his rank(lower than E-5), you may have seen a shade of red never before seen on a Marine if you did hug him. Next time don't be shy, give him a big hug, it'll mean the world to 'em.

Breaking News from Debka:

"In 1972 a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground.

Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team."

#116 Reaganite -- "#112 Far Sparkle Charles Rangle

I hope the next Pres. has more courage to face this reality.
What "reality" is that?"

Damn, the "copy" function doesn't repeat the line out of troll "Far sparkle" with the insertion of "Charles Rangle". Too bad.

Too bad, because I rate the quiet sophistication of that response as one of the best messages I've read here in the whole of the time I've been visiting and contributing.

Anybody who calls all volunteer military "mercenaries" is a tard, or a Marxist.

Hey, saving for college and seeing the world was part of the deal, when I joined, but a merc is strictly for pay, and our troops have a dog in the fight, that is, they fight for more than just a paycheck.

Rayra! Turkey (mmm. Turkey mmm.) fucked us.

You can say such a thing today of all days? :)