Iraqi Forces Capture Zarqawi Aide

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?t ype=worldNews&storyID=2006-02-27T144723Z_01_NU E751356_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ-QAEDA-CAPTURE.xml

Excellent read.

Wake up folks.

I wonder. Does Charles post about David Warren's article because Charles thinks David Warren is a far out extremist and a chicken-little?

"We will do anything to preserve a peace that ceased to exist on 9/11."

Oh, please, that some 'leaders' in Congress would see this and recognize themselves.

This is why it is SO important that we not let the democrats within a hundred yards of our national defense. If Al Gore had won in 2000, John Kerry in 2004, or heaven forbid, Hillary in 2008, we would all be learning the Koran and our women folk would be wearing the latest fashion from Mecca.

The only chance we have is to continue to elect strong, defense minded people to the top of our government. Abortions, gay rights, social security reform, they are all important issues, but none of them mean a thing if we don't win this war.

Hillary is no Margaret Thatcher. G-d forbid she is elected in 2008.

"Peace at any price"

...means the person you are paying is in control and is calling the shots.

#3 Roger

I wonder. Does Charles post about David Warren's article because Charles thinks David Warren is a far out extremist and a chicken-little?

Did you read the article before you posted that nonsense?

A great read and cuts to the core of the issue.

Imagine - a Canuck who thinks like Victor Davis Hanson. Who'da thunk it?

A peace that ceased to exist on 911?
Today is the 13th anniversary of the first WTC bombing.

As Ramsi said "I needed a bigger bomb" and tens of thousands might've been killed that day.

David Warren has nailed it on the head. World war is coming folks, I can feel it in me bones. That's why I'm trying to talk my draft aged son into enlisting now, before he gets used as cannon fodder.

What's the quote? Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it... something along those lines.

Unfortunately, schools don't seem to teach actual historical facts anymore.

I do not doubt the great majority of Muslims, in Canada and around the world, are decent, “moderate” people, who want no part in a “clash of civilizations”

Why is this always the obligatory disclaimer?

I don't know why people protest against war, it seems to clear things up for about twenty years or so.

This was a damn good article.

I'm hopeful that there is one difference between the 1930s and now - the blogosphere.
Even though the msm and many politicos continue to wilfully deny harsh realities, many people are getting the message - thanks to bloggers like Charles.

Hopefully it will be enough to wake people up before its too late.

deepdiver

David Warren misses only one part of it, the War has alreasy begun. It isn't 1936, it is 1940.
Eurabia is blomming into a poisonous flower, and the roots are spreading across the Atlantic.

#14 Cartman
Because it's true (imho) and something many people don't understand.

Avner @ #1: Iraqi forces capture Zarqawi aide

Possibly related;

Ten held for shrine attack

Authorities have arrested 10 people, including four security guards, over last week's bombing of a revered Shi'ite shrine, Iraq's national security adviser, Mowaffak al-Rubaie, told US televison on Sunday.

"We have arrested 10 people - four from the guards of the Golden Tomb shrine," he told CNN television's Late Edition programme.
---
"These leads are very, very good in our investigations," al-Rubaie said, adding that additional details about the probe would be made public "in the very near future".

Wolf Blitzer CNN Late Edition interview transcript here. He specifically fingers the Zarqawi gang;

BLITZER: Mowaffak al-Rubaie, thanks very much for joining us.

Do you know who was responsible for the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra this past week?

MOWAFFAK AL-RUBAIE, IRAQ'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, the blueprint of that unfortunate event, the blueprints of Al Qaida in Iraq is there.
---
BLITZER: So when you say Al Qaida in Iraq, you mean Abu Musab al-Zarqawi? Is that right?

AL-RUBAIE: That's absolutely right.

Zarqawi is officially dipped in sheep shit.

Well, the shriekers are all here. You all have fun waiting for the end of the world.

Its gonna be a long wait. Meanwhile the rest of us will take care of business.

http://www.aina.org/news/20050418191646.htm

But one speaker, a former brigadier-general who called himself "Abu Farouq" and claimed he spoke for other Ramadi military officers, angrily denounced it.

"Shall we allow Americans to keep peace in our towns, if they destroy houses and arrest the youth?" he asked.

"I do not want the Americans to participate in keeping the peace in our town, nor anywhere in Iraq," he added.

#20 American infidel

Jesus!

We have the moonbats eagerly awaiting the US losing the war on terror. We have the nut branch of the right eagerly awaiting the end of the "world".

I'm not sure which is worse.

While we must not forget that the Muslims are the first victims of “Islamism”, and may suffer most from its triumph, we are beyond the point where we can do more for them than destroy the tyranny by which they are enthralled.

I really enjoy Mr. Warren's articles for the most part, however, is it just me or is he putting muslims in the role of victims again.

I don't want any more muslim "victims" I want muslim freedom fighters AGAINST tyranny.

Wait.

Forgot about taqqiyah, darn it.

/won't happen
//there are no moderate muslims

Indeed, many Muslims, by birth or faith, remain our best allies, warning us as many fine Germans did of what is coming our way. For example, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-born politician in the Netherlands -- a magnificent young woman -- speaking recently in Berlin...

No. Hirsi Ali is an ex-Muslim, she is no longer Muslim. And there are no Muslims of faith that are willing to help us because they cannot bring themselves to tell the full truth about Islam and point out it isn't "Islamism" that is the problem, something this author naively believes to be the case, but Islam itself that is the problem. Moderate Muslims are really lax Muslims because there is no moderate Islam. There is no radical Islam either. There is only Islam, it's an all-or-nothing kind of deal.

This is a cowardly article. Warren tells us to "be aware" but offers no solutions. One of the most obvious questions he should be asking is "Why should we have to put up with this?" but he doesn't ask it. We wouldn't have to put up with this nonsense if we stopped all Muslim immigration to Western countries indefinitely and deported the illegals and Muslim citizens involved in promoting jihad. Such an idea may seem unthinkable, but it really isn't if enough people are informed about the nature of the threat and how we can defend ourselves from this threat. Merely saying that we shouldn't appease the "Islamists" (whom oddly enough are in agreement with our "moderate" Muslim friends) is not enough.

Germany was full of moderate Germans, as Hitler rose; Stalin drove his oars through a sea of moderate Russians. While we must not forget that the Muslims are the first victims of “Islamism”, and may suffer most from its triumph, we are beyond the point where we can do more for them than destroy the tyranny by which they are enthralled.

Germanism and Russianism is not an ideology. Hence the idea of there comparing a "moderate" German or "moderate" Russian to a "moderate" Muslim is absurd. And there were many more German and Russian dissidents who opposed Nazism and Communism, but the same is not true about Muslims vis-a-vis Islam. "Moderate" Muslims do not suffer the most from "Islamism", actually they benefit the most from it because they don't have to go on jihad, all they have to do is donate zakat to the mujahideen and practice taqiyya in the lands of the infidels, and they will reap the benefits of an Islamic supremacist state. How can we speak of a moderate Muslim base when 40% of British Muslims OPENLY state that they want a sharia state in Britain. The real number is probably much higher, but that fact that so many British Muslims would say this openly is shocking.

This was so, she added, when we were finally obliged to stand against the Nazis. It is true today, as we foolishly let the Islamist menace grow and grow.

We let it grow because we keep letting them come in. Reverse the trend and make Islam harder to practice in Europe and the threat will diminish. No need to invade the Muslim world and bring "democracy" to a people that were nursed on tribalism and Islam.

David Warren misses only one part of it, the War has already begun. It isn't 1936, it is 1940.

No, it's not 1940 yet, but it is passed the point of no return, yes. A world war is approaching, a global civil war, in case you haven't read my post.

27 savage_nation

unfortunately too many here think that means blow them all to kingdom come with a nuke, instead of carefully and in a controlled manner removing the base of the problem, with special forces and convential weapons when the time is right.

To support Condi's call for pro-democracy funds for Iran, you can call the Senate Foreign Relations Committee:

Majority Phone: (202) 224-4651
Minority Phone: (202) 224-3953
[Link: foreign.senate.gov...]

and why not give your Senator a buzz (even though it's not on the Senate floor yet) just as a heads-up that you support democracy in Iran:

[Link: www.senate.gov...]

Avner @ #25: But one speaker, a former brigadier-general who called himself "Abu Farouq" and claimed he spoke for other Ramadi military officers, angrily denounced it.

Abu Farouq is a recent addition to the Zarqawi gang;

Al-Qaeda in Iraq issued a message today, November 28, 2005, annoucing that the al-Bara’a Mujahideen Group, through its Emir, Abu Farouq al-Iraqi, has joined with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s group, al-Qaeda in Iraq. According to the message, al-Bara’a Mujahideen Group pledges loyalty to Zarqawi, to “obey him in everything” and to “fight Allah’s enemies everywhere”.

Still, all points back to Zarqawi and al-Qeada as perpetrators of the Golden Dome bombing.

igor:

Reverse the trend and make Islam harder to practice in Europe and the threat will diminish. No need to invade the Muslim world and bring "democracy" to a people that were nursed on tribalism and Islam.

Very true. Which is why this Iraq thing is a huge mistake, and a dangerous sidetrack at a crucial moment. You can't export democracy to an Islamic country such as Iraq, it's impossible. We should concentrate on retaining democracy in the West, and even that is a challenge.

#34 Asher Abrams

pro-democracy funds for Iran

B52 manufacture and support?

#33 American infidel

Uh huh...Eye opening is it not?!?

You can say that.

But I'm not ready to curl up and die just yet. I'm desperately hoping that blogs will make the difference. God knows that the msm is utterly useless for this.

Fingers crossed and spread the word.

Another fine analysis. Add it to the pile already written by Steyn, Hanson, Hitchens, and others, and what have we got? Sorry to sound so gloomy, but I can only hope that there are folks in the Bush admin who see this thing as clearly as some of these columnists do and do not believe the diplomatic claptrap they themselves (the Bushies) are spewing. I am truly disappointed with the Bush team lately.

OT: Major Bob Bevilacqua on Fox GOOD thoughts - we have crime endemic in ports, can't get rid of it, crime & terror go together...

37 Roger

That too! But it's a little outside of Condi's department.

#30 Igor

We wouldn't have to put up with this nonsense if we stopped all Muslim immigration to Western countries indefinitely and deported the illegals and Muslim citizens involved in promoting jihad. Such an idea may seem unthinkable, but it really isn't if enough people are informed about the nature of the threat and how we can defend ourselves from this threat.

That's not unthinkable, it's perfectly rational, assuming you're talking about immigrant citizens. If born citizens are planning jihad, we'll just have to lock those boys up.

Bill O'Reilly actually has a fine idea for locking hardasses up. It has to do with a huge prison work camp on the Alaskan tundra...

#21 Killgore

Because it's true (imho) and something many people don't understand.

Sheesh. I guess I'll rehash old ground one last time. Where is the outrage? Where is the voice? If one lives in mortal fear of speaking out due to fear of reprisal, then might one not consider that the path laid out is the wrong fork in the road? The "moderate" or "pacifist" argument is lame, at best.

I posted this the other day re a Mark Steyn piece, but it bears repeating here...

Alistair Cooke produced his famous "Letters from America" for the BBC for 58 years. He died in 2004 at age 95.

In one of Feb 2003 (run-up to Iraq War) broadcasts, his thoughts were also somewhat gloomy on the state of today's world, as a tragic repeat of 1930s history.

"During the last fortnight a simple but startling thought occurred to me - every single official, diplomat, president, prime minister involved in the Iraq debate was in 1938 a toddler, most of them unborn...

In Britain the general response to every Hitler advance was disarmament and collective security.

Collective security meant to leave every crisis to the League of Nations. It would put down aggressors, even though, like the United Nations, it had no army, navy or air force...

Still for two years before the outbreak of the Second War you could read the debates in the House of Commons and now shiver at the famous Labour men - Major Attlee was one of them - who voted against rearmament and still went on pointing to the League of Nations as the saviour...

All I know is that all the voices of the 30s are echoing through (this year)."

(BBC) Alistaire Cooke's Letter from America, Feb 2003: Letter from America

Scratch a "moderate" muslim and you will find a jihadist.

There is no such thing.

38 deepdiver

You do realize that you are talking about someone that already has protected our rears and helped to give us the ability to post here

Right?

Now about that Green Card?

Well done. I sometimes wish (stupidly) that I could see how everything turns out. I don't think the West is winning. The US may be winning military battles, but that's just a part. We still treat Israel like an unwanted stepchild. Where Israel goes, so goes the world.

#36 Fjordman

You can't export democracy to an Islamic country such as Iraq, it's impossible. We should concentrate on retaining democracy in the West, and even that is a challenge.

With all due respect, that's commonly referred to as isolationism. Has historically failed, every time it's been tried.

igor #30

I agree, people keep mistaking radical Islam for something else. It has similarities to National Socialism, or communism, only in that it is a despotic tyranny at its roots.

But it captures and controls far more of the human soul or mind than any political philosophy. In that it weds the worst of religion, with the worst of politics.

It is the mistake of the West to both underestimate, and to not understand what we are fighing. Doing so against fascism, we almost lost, if Germany had a few more months they would have had the bomb and German would be spoken here. Now we once again don't understand what we are facing, and it is worse than fascism.

We have not seen an organized system of hate that will drive young people to kill themselves to kill others. Only in the aberration of Kamikaze pilots, who were driven more out of fatalism and desperation, than out of an aggressive ideology. We need new thinkers and new weapons for this conflict.

#34 Asher Abrams

If Iran continues to be Muslim, then it cannot become democratic. If the Iranians truly want a democracy, they'll have to revert back to Zoroastrianism and Christianity and leave the Islamic baggage behind. Then we can talk about democracy. The funds that are being gathered will be spent on da'wa and other things that do not benefit us infidels. Islam and democracy is impossible. There is no Muslim democracy in the Western sense, the only ones that come close are Mali and Senegal, and their version of Islam is more corrupted than the orthodox version because it adopts some aspects of animism.

50 Cartman

With all due respect, that's commonly referred to as isolationism. Has historically failed, every time it's been tried.

And was a contributing force to the beginning of both World Wars as the US wanted to sit it out. This time we are trying to be proactive despite the screeching and hairpulling of the BDS'ers and the L³

Moderate muslims...
Deeyah

Yenny Wahid

Zainah Anwar

Irshad Manji

...or just scroll on by.

#31 Fjordman

As WWI began with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, this war (which will be just as important and culturally destructive) may begin with the murder of a symbolic but politically unimportant figure. Or a reverse scenario is possible. A nationalist or rightist murders a prominent Islamic figure, sparking a wave of Islamic terror across Europe. Another possibility is a mega-attack, a chemical weapon or simply a massive suicide bomb or wave of bombs that succeed beyond the bombers plans and kills thousands and/or destroys symbolically important targets, a cathedral, a museum, the Channel

Who'd have ever thought cartoons?

#30 igor,

Germanism and Russianism is not an ideology. Hence the idea of there comparing a "moderate" German or "moderate" Russian to a "moderate" Muslim is absurd.

Historically, nationalism was combined with German Naziism and Soviet Communism, so a good German could be dragged into being a reluctant Nazi, etc. This may be similar to what we have today with Islam as both a social and political movement, as well as religious.

Really it supports most of what you say that much more, I think.

#51 jehu, the Germans weren't even close to the bomb. And they were about ready to run out of chromium by Jan 1946. Their whole war machine would have stopped.

It's OT but, we had a problem with wall mold for a while.. we tried treating the mold on a "spot by spot" basis.. just wiping it out as it showed it's ugly presence, but finally realized, it would just keep croping up near by each time, when we did that..

So, we finally had to treat the entire surface, top to bottom, and all sides.. it was the only way to make it go away for good..

This IS OT, right?

Cartman:

With all due respect, that's commonly referred to as isolationism. Has historically failed, every time it's been tried.

I want to isolate the Islamic world, not the West. Islam and democracy don't mix, and it is a dangerous waste of time and money to focus on this track. Period. We can't base our policies on a moderate Islam that has never existed before just as we can't base our policies on the existence of the tooth fairy or the Loch Ness monster.

...In my judgement, it (the cartoon reaction) is the most important thing that has happened since the Al Qaeda attack on the United States, in 2001. It is important in combination with other fast-developing events, including the victory of the openly terrorist Hamas in a Palestinian election; Iran’s public promise to “wipe Israel off the map”; collapsing public order in Pakistan, Nigeria, and elsewhere; the recent Muslim riots, and continuing low-level Intifada in France; and now the destruction of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, triggering vicious sectarian strife in Iraq.

Funny, the invasion of Iraq doesn't even get an honorable mention.

Guess that's not a factor.

#50 Cartman

With all due respect, that's commonly referred to as isolationism. Has historically failed, every time it's been tried.

I prefer to call it containment. The less we bother ourselves with the affairs of Muslims, the less they will bother us. Cut off all foreign aid to every Muslim country (disguised jizya) and restrict all of their access to the West (immigration, technology, education, medicine) and leave them to their hubble-bubble pipes and mint tea. And if we pull out all of our Western foregin workers in their countries, they will surely collapse. The Gulf States and Saudi Arabia will be the first to go. They have proven that they are unable to create modern economies and modern political systems. Let them descend into chaos. It would benefit us more than the Iraq War has. We can't change them, it's time to admit it.

#44 Cartman
We'll just have to agree to disagree on the existance of moderate muslim.
But real the reason why so many writters include the disclaimer that moderate muslims exist is becuase they don't want to be confused with those who want to exterminate all muslims.
I think that's an important distinction to make.

#60 HVT

You're right. The removal of Saddam Hussein definitely belongs on the list. Good catch, buddy!

::high fives::

World War 4 is indeed coming. Let us welcome it, however painful. For it is by war, and war alone, that Islamofascism can be crushed.

Remember, if the Islamofascists are actually unsuccessful at provoking a full scale war with the West, then paradoxically, they will be far more likely to prevail eventually, as they gradually corrupt our institutions and destroy our freedoms.

As they (used to) say in New Hampshire: Live Free or Die. I choose freedom.

#56 itellu3times

Yes, I agree. Though Nationalism in itself was not a threat to its foreign neighbours. Islam is. Therein lies the difference.

I don't think that it's so much a matter of not seeing it coming as a matter of not being prepared emotionally to inflict the killing that dealing with it entails. Bush is trying to head off disaster by rooting out the extremists wihout inflicting total war on the Middle East (which the American people are in no wise ready for anyway).

Do we see Muslims becoming more radicalized as we proceed? Quite possibly, but that does not condemn the effort IMHO. A Nodrog approach, waiting for Islam to "mature" is a fantasy. Perhaps the US will elect a Democrat President and Congress that will try it, but it will not succeed, IMO.

No Muslim power is going to face us openly on the field of combat, nukes or no nukes. But if the effort in Iraq fails, and it may well do so, the Islamists will be that much more encouraged to conduct jihad as assymetrical warfare against us.

As long as the American economy continues to provide jobs and a comfortable lifestyle for the majority, I believe we will continue to absorb the blows and address the problem in a Whack-a-mole fashion, being unwilling to either surrender or inflict megadeath.

IMO, the crisis will come when economic warfare by Islamist controlled oil states put enough people out of work and out of their homes. I am not saying that we will go to war with economics as the proximate cause, but that economics will sensitize the West until we will go to war for one of the innumerable acts of war that they have inflicted and continue to inflict on us.

When we ever go to all-out war on these people it will be killing on a scale never seen before.

Roger #57

#51 jehu, the Germans weren't even close to the bomb. And they were about ready to run out of chromium by Jan 1946. Their whole war machine would have stopped.

Then we have a good model for passively accepting Islamic aggresion until all out war, I guess. :-)

The essay is great, and yet igor's points at #30 are worth considering.

For those of you who read the NYT mag article and related LGF thread yesterday (on the Taliban member who's a frosh at Yale), John Fund at Opinion Jounral met him years ago and has his observations here.

I dont welcome death, destroy it before it engulfs the world with darkness.

Fjordman, that is complete and absolute nonsense.

There is no reason why we can't take a two-pronged (or multiple-pronged) approach; it's not either/or. We can and must support opposition groups in Iran. It's just tactically sensible to do so.

Although your assertion that "moderate Islam has never existed" is factually wrong, it has nothing to do with the question at hand. The question is simply: Do we want to encourage the Iranians to get rid of the mullahs, or don't we? Apparently you don't.

What is an either/or proposition, is this: do we support freedom or do we support dictatorship?

#59 Fjordman

Well, maybe you're right. Let's just abandon the notion that most human beings yearn for freedom from oppression and a life of misery. After all, that's really none of our beeswax, and was a misguided Bush/Rovian concept. I guess I'm OK sittin' back and watching a third of the planet's population suffer, if you are!

/respectful sarc

Kilgore...thank you. I personally know several moderate muslims who would take up arms to protect America. And I totally love Deeyah!

#67 jehu, just getting facts straight. Heisenburg refused unlimited funding by Speer and Speer dropped the atomic bomb development until the war would be over. There was also a lot of fear about when would fission stop or not.

#55:

Who'd have ever thought cartoons?

You know, I didn't include it in the text, but I was considering writing that this world war would start in Denmark, the one Western nation with the most backbone. I'm not too surprised by this cartoon affair, actually.

I have been checking my records, and I believe Fjordman may have been the first one outside Denmark to give extensive coverage of the cartoon issue in English, and also to reprint the "bomb turban" cartoon. I understood immediately that this was a crucial issue. It was later picked up by LGF, Jihad Watch, the Brussels Journals and others. Sort of strange to think about when I am watching the news these days...

#45 former cnn watcher

In Britain the general response to every Hitler advance was disarmament and collective security.

Collective security meant to leave every crisis to the League of Nations. It would put down aggressors, even though, like the United Nations, it had no army, navy or air force...

OUR very modern, highly educated Democrats still believe in Collectivism & UN-ik Crisis Management by EU-niks without weapons or testosterone.

#54 Killgore Trout

If that's the best you can come up with for "moderate" Muslims, then Houston we have a problem.

Deeyah is just a popstar. Who's to say she's even practicing anymore? During the Rushdie Affair, even Salman Rushdie said he was a practicing Muslim to piss of the mullahs, but it turns out he wasn't. He cannot even be counted on as a reliable moderate Muslim because he fails to see the problem stemming from Islam itself, but "fundamentalism" in general. Very wishy washy.

Yenny Wahid is a deceiver. She's trying to pull the wool over the infidels' eyes. Jihad is an "inner struggle". Bullshit. She knows very well that is based on a weak hadith not even found in Bukhari or Muslim.

Irshad Manji is just ignorant. She never talks about the hadith or sira, or even tafsir and long history of Islamic jurisprudence. Her approach to "reform" is entirely artificial. Her "own personal Islam" is not Islam. She cannot change history and make Islam into what she wants it to be, a belief system that is progressive and encourages critical thought. Islam was never that and can never be that.

I haven't heard much about Zainah Anwar, so I won't comment on her.

The fact remains you will never find a moderate practicing Muslim to be as truthful as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Anwar Sheik, or Ibn Warraq. Don't even bother trying. They don't exist.

#72 megscole64
I really like that Deeyah video. Who ever thought a woman smoking a hookah could be so sexy?

Asher Abrams:

Although your assertion that "moderate Islam has never existed" is factually wrong, it has nothing to do with the question at hand.

It has everything to do with the question at hand. Where was this moderate Islam? How did it look like, and most importantly, why did it end?

It also depends on what the definition of islam is.

Are there moderate Nazis?

Igor, you're playing with semantics. As long as you've made up your mind that "there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim" you can always define "moderate" to exclude all Muslims and "Muslim" to exclude all moderates. This kind of "logic" (and I use the word loosely) is a waste of my time and I won't expend any more energy responding to it.

And as an argument against helping pro-democracy, anti-regime forces in Iran, it's a complete non sequitur.

#61 igor

And if we pull out all of our Western foregin workers in their countries, they will surely collapse

Nice fantasy but there is an endless supply of striving, ambitious & ruthless folks ready to work for and with rich oil countries--China for one, India for another. Not to mention all those leftist collectivist folks who are simpatico with islamofascists--Russia, France, Malaysia, etc.

#76 igor

Deeyah is just a popstar.

Spot on. Symbolism over substance.

Roger

Thanks, I googled a little bit and found conflicting accounts of where the Germans were at in the development of the bomb. Our guys were worried that the atmosphere would start on fire also. Cooler heads prevailed (pun intended)

Never the less, I stand by my thinking that radical Islam is not understood by Western thinkers or leaders, and far less than fasicism was understood in the late thirties.

The argument that we put any hope on "moderate," Islam I find ridiculous. Not that I do not think there are no moderate Moslems, just that I think most of them keep quite, and are intimidated, and some fear for their lives for speaking out, even mildly, against the horrors of the fanatics.

To this day what condemnation from Western leaders for the ongoing death sentence on Rushdie? Let alone our media will not print cartoons that mock a damn pedophile and founder of a Satanic cult, but ceaselessly lampoon our own leaders that have done more to liberate "moderate," Muslims, than all the Imams in the world.

#77 Killgore Trout 2/27/2006 10:37AM PST
#72 megscole64
I really like that Deeyah video. Who ever thought a woman smoking a hookah could be so sexy?

---

I hear ya! And I'm not even a lesbian! LOL I am just in touch with my masculine side enough to appreciate a smokin' hottie! Plus, her message just kicks butt.

#78 fjordman

Well, there's the Sufis who are still very much around, but who don't make the news much.

A couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Moderate Muslims. I too wanted to compare the rise of Communism and Nazism. I wanted to see how large segement of population was necessary to drive a country to adopt a radical ideology.

My conclusion was Moderate Muslims, whether they exist or not, are irrelevant. Whether Islam is a stronger phsycologicl force because of its mix of politicas, religion, economics and law is also irrelevant.

The Nazis and Communists came to power with less then 3 percent of their population as members. The peaked somewhere around 10 percent, even with comppolsary memebrship for some.

You can quibble with my methods or whether Islam/Nazism/Communism. You can even argue all party members are not zealots.

But in the end, even if you assume all party members are zealots, 90 percent of the population will just go along for the ride.

The details and some references are here:

Jester6: Millions of Moderate Muslims Exist - So What?

#76 igor
They can be Muslims, moderates or moderate Muslims but they don't need your approval to be any of those things.
You can say they don't exist but they don't need your permission for that either.

#83 Cartman

Spot on. Symbolism over substance.

Where does the cartoon death count stand?

To some people, symbolism is substance. And if Deeyah gets herself beheaded, that would be relatively substantial.

88 kilgore trout

spot on!

#84 jehu
A good book on it is Hitler's Scientists
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
This includes more than just the war years. And many scientists around the world.

The last chapter is goofy lll stuff on the WOT.

Unfortunate name. Should be called the War on the West WOW.

#89 Powderfinger

To some people, symbolism is substance.

But is there a game-plan to back it up? Is there a true conviction in making a stand? I guess we shall find out...

#71 Cartman

Well, maybe you're right. Let's just abandon the notion that most human beings yearn for freedom from oppression and a life of misery...

So you can't refute Fjordman's arguments and you resort to sarcastic platitudes? If you knew anything about Islam and Muslim society in general you would know that they don't all want the same things as we do. Tribe trumps nation as the Iraqi situation has illustrated thus far. And Islam trumps everything else. They don't see sharia as "oppression" because it comes from Allah and Allah doesn't oppress his Muslims, he liberates them from the oppressive and arbitray laws of man. That is how they think on the whole. Some Westernized Muslims like Chalabi, the boys from Iraq the Model, and Kanan Makiya are not representative of the majority. If given a chance, Muslims will elect Islam at the ballot box. Every recent election has included sharia in one form or another. But nevermind that, I'm sure they all want "freedom". Not one place has secularism triumped in the Islamic world by choice. Not one.

#87 jester6
Well done. It would be tough to convince me that moderate Muslims don't exist. I agree that they're probably irrelevant.

The only significance I can see to the search for "moderate Islam" is that something will have to be there for Muslims to sign on to after WW3. I don't see a wholesale slaughter of a billion people, and I don't see such mass conversions as to make Islam simply vanish. So some form of reinvented Islam will have to form the basis of any future Islamic faith.

That said, whether they are fake or real, there aren't enough "moderate" Muslims to stop this jihadic train wreck.

And that said, here's another example of apparently genuine moderate Islam that could be part of the new formulation: His name is Shiek Abdul Hadi Palazzi and the organization is the Islam-Israel Fellowship. He seems on the level to me:
[Link: www.rb.org.il...]

After I go to Sunday Communion service in Riyadah, I can't wait for that Deeyah concert at the park.

/must I?

#93 igor

So you can't refute Fjordman's arguments and you resort to sarcastic platitudes? If you knew anything about Islam and Muslim society in general you would know that they don't all want the same things as we do.

You assume so much. Good for you! From now on I'll bow in deference to your expertise on Muslim custom and culture. Thanks for the "re-education".

#93 igor

Paul Rodriguez asked Crip & Blood convicts at San Quentin about Martin Luther King's dream. The answer was surprising and food for thought. "That was his dream, not mine."

#88 Killgore Trout

If you think lying about the contents of the Quran, Hadith, and Sira in order to avoid the more challenging questions about Islam makes one a moderate then by all means embrace them as your allies. Just don't be surprised when you find out that what they have told you was wrong, that they really have no power to change the Islamic mainstream, and that all of a sudden those nice calm moderate Muslims become unhinged once you mention three figures in Muhammad's life: Aisha, Asma bint Marwan, and the Qurayza Jews. Either expect dissembling or hysterics.

Even at the Pim Fortuyn memorial, Daniel Pipes, a champion of "moderate Islam is the solution" had second thoughts about the efficacy of moderate Muslims. Something to think about.

This discussion has become the party game, where a saying or phrase is passed around in a circle, and the meaning is ultimately lost with the final recipient. Sigh.

#86: Ever read Sufi Jihad by Andrew Bostom? Sufis are just as much Muslim supremacists as any others, as long as they follow even a fraction of their religious texts. There is no moderate Islam, there is just less Islam, which is by no means the same thing. There are certain groups such as the Ahmadiyyas, the Ishmailis and some Sufi groups that are indeed slightly more peaceful than others. That is because they all ignore significant parts of the Islamic texts, which means that they cannot form the basis for any lasting reform of Islam. They will remain marginal, and frequently persecuted by real Muslims precisely for their softness.

Anynone who actually takes the Koran, the Sira and the hadith seriously cannot be a peaceful democrat. War against others is the correct interpretation of the Islamic core texts, just as it was of Hitler's "Mein Kampf."

BTW, the moderator of the Free Iran message board was kind enough to bump my post up to the top, under "Announcements":

[Link: activistchat.com...]

igor

Moderate Muslims are really lax Muslims because there is no moderate Islam. There is no radical Islam either. There is only Islam, it's an all-or-nothing kind of deal.

Precisely.

The fact remains you will never find a moderate practicing Muslim apostates to be as truthful as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Anwar Sheik, or Ibn Warraq.

Don't forget about Walid Shoebat

who says, among other things:

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”

#101 Fjordman, well said.

#81 Asher Abrams

Fine. Don't consider my arguments. But let me ask you a question, if Iran did overthrow the mullahs but still remained thoroughly Muslim by population, would you trust them with nuclear technology? Even if they were democratic?

Now, how about they achieve their democracy but they reverted to Zoroastrianism and Christianity during the process and then got nuclear technology. Would you trust them more then? If so, why?

103 miss trixie

Yes, Walid Shoebat is a remarkable man. I only hope that my Jewish friends here at LGF will not be so put off by his conversion to evangelical Christianity that they fail to see that he is a fervent friend of Israel and an eminently credible critic of Islam.

Of course it is coming, and of course we close our eyes again. Human nature prevents us from seeing the worst of humanity until it's too late.

Look at the beginning of every WWII movie, like The Pianist--there's always a Jewish family sitting around saying, it can't happen here, we are civilized, and Hitler is just a punk.

#23 reganite
#28 Sarah D.

Don't confuse those of us who use the study of history and of current events to draw reasoned parallels. The similarities between Europe in the 1930s and today vis-a-vis the islamists are striking. In fact, we are in virtually the same position as we were in the 1930s. In the 1930s we were trying to recover from a bloody and expensive war (WWI), and Europe in particular was willing to do almost anything to avoid another major clash. Hence, the quick and unchecked rise of Fascism and Nazism. Today we find ourselves still recovering from WWII and the Cold War (which was not very cold at all, as Korea and Vietnam were both conflicts of the Cold War). Europe, especially -- as it was following WWI -- had been knocked on its ass, and thoroughly; they had seen enough of war and carnage to last several lifetimes. The Cold War very much involved Europe, but not in the hot conflicts. Still, although the U.S. bankrolled most of the Cold War, Europe still expended quite a bit of its treasure -- and a great deal of its emotion -- in its engagement in that long struggle. By the late 1980s, exhaustion had set in, and avoidance of any future conflicts was the order of the day (Desert Storm in 1991 was a freak, and in actuality only a handful of nations were actively engaged, although many provided logistical support; but the reason it saw the support it did was because the enemy was seen as isolated to one tyrant, and one country). Today, we are faced with an enemy far more numerous, and far more fanatical, than either the Nazis or the Soviets. And that scares the hell out of a lot of people. And they don't know what to do.

I do not believe we are "near the end of the world." I do believe, though, that we are on the brink of a huge and cataclysmic fight with islamo-fascism, which is global in nature; and though I believe the West will triumph in the end, the longer we delay getting serious about the fight, the more we will suffer. If that sounds like doom and gloom to you all, then so be it.

A superb article on Islam (=Islamism) on Victor Davis Hanson site by Bruce Thornton:
[Link: www.victorhanson.com...]

It is interesting that Hanson himself prbably believes, it is difficult to unwind Hanson writnigs, in existance of Moderate Moslem.

In contrast it is crystal clear Thornton does not believe that delusion.

Read the article, even if you disagree it is a great writing.

#99 igor
I suggest you should make some Muslim friends. It's fun, they can be nice people. You might even fall in love and marry a Muslim!

I do not believe we are "near the end of the world." I do believe, though, that we are on the brink of a huge and cataclysmic fight with islamo-fascism, which is global in nature; and though I believe the West will triumph in the end, the longer we delay getting serious about the fight, the more we will suffer.

Exactly right. Which is why it was a mistake by Muslims to push this hard this early.

#12 The Crusader: "David Warren has nailed it on the head. World war is coming folks, I can feel it in me bones. That's why I'm trying to talk my draft aged son into enlisting now, before he gets used as cannon fodder."

David Warren's descriptor: “organized apoplexy” (re: the cartoons) describes well that other organized apoplexy: Kristalnacht.
Crusader, I believe we are only continuing what was left unfinished in WW2 - and that is dealing appropriately with Hitler's allies, the Arabs.

#111 Fjordman, I do believe that is exactly what drove OBL. He knew his health was failing and he really wanted the personal glory in the islamic world of being the first to attack US mainland.

#101 fjordman

Who are the Sufis at war with? Where are they spilling blood? Where are they eliminating other religions?

There are legions of Christian supremecists as well. They too can believe whatever they like AFAIC. If they picked up the sword, we'd have a whole 'nother ballgame.

While we're playing "Spot the moderate muslim" what are Steven Emerson and Mansour Ijaz?

#108 hiker

In fact, we are in virtually the same position as we were in the 1930s.

In the '30's we and most of Europe were not prepared for war. The Germans were arming and we ignored it. When the Germans and Japanese marched they rolled over haplessly unprepared armies.

Today there is no military on earth that can face the US in open combat. The Chinese may do so in the future, but not now. Muslim society has about as much chance of fielding a first rate army as I do of flapping my arms and flying. The nukes that Pakistan has and Iran aspires to are Hiroshima-sized and they are no threat to get the capacity to deliver them on the US in anything like a decapitating first-strike.

We lack only the will to erase the civilization of the Middle East and send them back a milleneum, we have the capacity ready at hand.

#108 hiker

I do believe, though, that we are on the brink of a huge and cataclysmic fight with islamo-fascism, which is global in nature; and though I believe the West will triumph in the end, the longer we delay getting serious about the fight, the more we will suffer.

Exactly. Indeed, can there be any serious doubt about that? The alternative, which is simply to surrender, is far, far worse.

With the drive by shooting in Iraq this weekend of some kids playing soccer it was just the final straw for me. I no longer view Islam as a religion. It is a cult of death and front organization for physchotic killers. They can wrap themselves in whatever they wish but they are simply thugs and murderers.
I don't know why that news sent me over the edge in concerns to Islam as a religion it just did.
We often make jabs at Islam such as deridinly referring to it as the "Religion of Peace", well for me there is no longer any part of religion associated with these blood thirsty parasites. I don't want to hear about moderate Muslims, radical Muslims or any other kind of Muslims. Muslims are simply a street gang with bombs and good PR. When the western press finally wakes up and realizes it we will be better off, unfortunately I don't think that will happen even if the terrorists start beheading people in the middle of Times Square.

Well, as the old saying goes, "Those who fail to learn from history...perish."

Or something like that.

#114 Powderfinger

Aren't the Chechens largely Sufis, and didn't they spill the blood of kids in Beslan?

Killgore Trout:

"I suggest you should make some Muslim friends. It's fun, they can be nice people. You might even fall in love and marry a Muslim!"

If only Mr. Trout could extract his head from his ass and learn just 2 bits about Islam.

He might learn that a true Moslem cannot marry infidel. Only Moslem will do.
Obviously there are Moslems married to infidels. It doesn't make them bad people. It makes them bad Moslems.

Many Germans in 1939-1945, I dare to suggest many more Germans than Moslems, were perfectly nice and acceptable people. It didn't matter, they still gassed 6 million Jews.

How many of those nice Moslems, Mr. Trout friends, would like to finish what Nazis started?

How about that Mr. Trout? How many of your nice Moslem friends would like to see the Jew dead?

#120 spitit of 1680
Trying to draw distinctions between different Muslim groups is like explaining the difference between the Bloods and the Crips. There is no distinction except for the color of the turban on their head or their ski mask which hides their face.

Powderfinger #114

There are legions of Christian supremecists as well.

Hyperbole can be fun! Just depends on who is doing it to get called on it I suppose.

Just_a_Grunt 123

There is no distinction except for the color of the turban on their head or their ski mask which hides their face.

Now that was funny, LOL!

#110 kilgore trout

I suggest you should make some Muslim friends. It's fun, they can be nice people. You might even fall in love and marry a Muslim!

If you are talking about marrying a Muslim women ask her the hypothetical what if Sharia law became the law in America but you could not abide by it, what would she do?
If you are talking about marrying a Muslim man you might want to make sure you and your children don't have passports, which still won't protect the children if he decides to kidnpa them and take them to the ME. What if you were a women and he demanded you obey Sharia law?
No thanks keep your gang and their silly iniation rites which normally involve explosives.

#124 jehu, not to mention the legions of atheists...

#122 mik

If only Mr. Trout could extract his head from his ass and learn just 2 bits about Islam.

Insults don't make you appear any more rational.

He might learn that a true Moslem cannot marry infidel.

I'm not suggesting you go party with Islamists, they wouldn't be much fun. Moderate Muslims don't need permission, they marry whoever they want.

How many of your nice Moslem friends would like to see the Jew dead?

None.

Time for a song..

I'm a holocaust denier, holocaust denier...
Rewriting history on the fly, my oh my..
I'm a holocaust denier, a holocaust denier...
It never happened now.. wow, oh wow..

I was just a boy, I threw my first stone at mom
And found a new pastime to dwell on
Whenever I detect, an infidel ..
I do jihad and blow up so well now!

[Chorus]

#124 jehu

Hyperbole can be fun! Just depends on who is doing it to get called on it I suppose.

Nonsense.

abu_garcia:

"Today there is no military on earth that can face the US in open combat."

Very true and wholly irrelevant.

As an example look at France. They alone can demolish Moslem world combined. Yet, if Musulman plays his cards right, there is at least even chance that in 20-30 years France will have Sharia and dhimmy status for infidels.

As William F Buckley said at the height of Cold War: There is no difference between rifles and broomsticks if we don't want to use rifles.

#110 Kilgore Trout

And even if one of us does fall in love, and marry a Moslem---so what?

Will this suddenly create world peace? Will the mullahs stop preaching hate in the mosques? Will the Arab world suddenly accept Israel? Will Ahmadenijad drop his plans for acquiring nukes and wiping out Israel (and possibly the US) because I've found my Shiek of Araby? Are all the rent-a-mobs going to stop demanding Danish cartoonists be executed because we Lizardoids have found the Islamic hunk or houri of our dreams?

Are the terrorists going to stop terrorizing? Will Hamas and Hizbollah finally get honest jobs, instead of murdering, rioting and leeching off Europe? What, exactly, is knowing "nice" Moslems and maybe even marrying one have to do with the extremely dangerous world we face today?

Are you really under the silly impression that all nations really need to do is just get to know each other better, give each other a warm, fuzzy hug, and all will be well? Or that liking, or even loving, one particular member of a religion, or nation, or ethnic group means one must love them all, unquestioningly and unreservedly, no matter what they do?

I'm gonna reverse that old 60's platitude---the personal should NOT become political.

#126 Just_A_Grunt

what if Sharia law became the law in America

We'd move, Tahiti seems like a nice place to live. Maybe Crete...
I think Crete would be best.

#134 kilgore
I don't believe in running from my problems I would rather face them. Besides you would only be delaying the inevitable.

#133 TalkinKamel
Sorry, the thread kinda got derailed into a debate about moderate Muslims; fact or fiction.
I agree it changes nothing if they exist or not, or whether or not you hang out with them.

#137 Killgore Trout, derailed from what?

#120 Spirit of 1683

Aren't the Chechens largely Sufis, and didn't they spill the blood of kids in Beslan?

Not that I'm aware of. In fact, my understanding is that they're predominately Sunnis with strong Wahabbi ties, though there are Sufis there. But if you know something I don't, I'd appreciate that information.

Trout:

"How many of your nice Moslem friends would like to see the Jew dead?

None."

And you that how?

Parents, families and friends of exploded jihadis always express they shock and disbelieve.

If their own families don't know what is cooking in their nut-heads, how do you know Trout?

Just for fun Trout, seat and think, how do you know?

Powderfinger #131

Ok, show me the "legions," of Christian supermacists, and I will show you Waco. To conflate any type of radical Christianity to world wide Isalmic Jihad is ludicrious, or a peculiar personal bias on your part, it has no basis in modern history or fact.

#133 TalkinKamel

Or that liking, or even loving, one particular member of a religion, or nation, or ethnic group means one must love them all, unquestioningly and unreservedly, no matter what they do?

I think he's aguing exactly the opposite, that knowing one or a million of them are vile jihadi bastards doesn't make every last one of them a vile jihadi bastard. So, just as one need not love them all, one need not hate them all.

People are people and should be judged by their actions, not on religious classifications.

#139 Powderfinger, seems they mix sufi mysticism in with Sunni:
[Link: www.globalsecurity.org...]
a hybrid

#138 Roger
Heh, I had to pull up the article again to check.
The central point is the impending conflict with Islamism. I don't think anyone has disagreed with that yet.
Anyone?
...*crickets*

#82 alegrias

Not to mention all those leftist collectivist folks who are simpatico with islamofascists--Russia, France, Malaysia, etc.

It may be the other way around - that the islamofascists are simpatico with the leftist collectivists.

I found this yesterday at China e-Lobby and am very troubled by it. Short story - look to China as the "root cause".

The CCP doesn't want the democratic world to know this, but it is the largest supporter of terrorism on the planet. Among the Communists' beneficiaries are the Iranian mullahcracy, the Syrian Ba'athists, Saddam Hussein, and al Qaeda itself). No wonder the terrorists keep their mouths shut on East Turkestan, and scream only about actions taken by or in European and North American nations.

So what does this tell us about the supposedly devout Muslim terrorists? It tells me their "faith" is nothing but a cover for their hunger for power and complete lack of respect for human life. There as Muslim as Hitler was Buddhist (that was the faith that saw its swa-stika twisted by the Nazis).

Sufism is mentioned
[Link: www.iol.ie...]

Today there is no military on earth that can face the US in open combat. The Chinese may do so in the future, but not now. Muslim society has about as much chance of fielding a first rate army as I do of flapping my arms and flying.

You misunderstand, because you believe this will be the same kind of world war as last time, with state actors, Germany invading Poland etc. There might be an element of that, with Iran and Israel for instance, but it will rather be what some a call a global civil war, with several Western countries becoming Bosnias. In stead of a Westernization of the Balkans we will see a Balkanization of the West.

#144 Killgore Trout, depends what islamism[ or Muslim] is...

/ducks

igor,
I find your view interesting, and refreshing. I agree with your "we can't change them" sentiment, and I share your view on "moderate" Moslems: they are either not true Moslems, or they are jihadis posing as moderate.
However, I'm more than skeptical about the "leaving them alone" solution. The only language these people understand is brutal force, and the only way we can deal with islamists is beating them into submission. "Moslem" should become an embarassing thing to be. Violence against, and humiliation of "warriors of Islam", is the only way to achieve it. The only other option is to way until we are oil-independent, and hoping they don't destroy us in the meanwhile.

#141 jehu

Let's start with the Baptists who insist that as a Catholic, I'm going to Hell for not buying the One True Way they're selling. For that matter, Fred Phelps considers himself a Christian. Is he a supremecist? Yup.

You seem to think I care about them, and I can assure you that I don't. I'm also not equating the two, simply pointing out that extreme attitudes can be found all over the place. I'm not suggesting that any Christians pose a threat. Again, people can believe that God is a cheescake who lives on the Moon for all I care. Until they turn to the sword, then we have a problem.

#147 Fjordman, and President Clinton had the solution for that, didn't he?

128 Killgore Trout 2/27/2006 11:32AM PST

This weekend a city council member of Maroccan descent told a crowd at a discussion for the second time he thinks some of the cartoons are a little bit funny (not the turban/bomb, that was most
objectionable) An imam here in the Netherlands has now publicly stated this council member is no longer a muslim.
This same city counsel member "would not stand for it" if his daughter fell in love with a none-muslim.
This is a "moderate" in conflict with a "bit-less-moderate"?
The moderate one still marries of his daughter to someone in the "home country" if her choice is offending to islam.
So do not tell a kafir to make a muslim girl very unhappy OK?

#150 Powderfinger, I don't know of any time in history when the Baptists turned to using the sword...

#150 Powderfinger, I don't know of any time in history when the Baptists turned to using the sword...

That wasn't the question.

#145 stringart:

Thanks for the very interesting link (unsettling and scary as it is).

kilgore trout:

Okay, Kilgore, I hear ya. . .

:>)

#152 desperate hippy, nice nic:-) Glad you registered.

#154 Powderfinger, the ... was letting you fill in the blank.

#139 Powderfinger

Basayev's a Sufi, and in my book that makes Islam dangerous in all its flavours.

#140 mik

Just for fun Trout, seat and think, how do you know?

Condescending attitude (just like the insults) doesn't help you appear any more rational.
To answer your question:
My mother, who is a Muslim, says she has never killed a Jew (I ask her regularly) and I've never seen her kill a Jew. I find it a safe assumption that she's never done it.
She loved the Winds of Jihad Song, click my football for link.

Just thought I'd throw in some statistics to cheer every body up:
Oil producers and consumers

Might be something to consider unless you think digging in the dirt with a stick for a living sounds like fun.

And no, it will not change any time soon.

154 Powderfinger

I got you. But I'm a Baptist, so could we use Mormans or something

/just kidding

#160 Killgore Trout, I mean this kindly and with curiousity. What value does she put on islam? What does she get from or how does she benefit from islam?

#12 crusader

David Warren has nailed it on the head. World war is coming folks, I can feel it in me bones. That's why I'm trying to talk my draft aged son into enlisting now, before he gets used as cannon fodder.

I feel it too. My son is 15. My dad has his pants in a twist about Iraq and the Chimpy McHalliburton and points to my son and how Chimpy's sins are going to visit him. So blind, my dad. Iraq is piffle in comparison to the undercurrents that will reach tsunami proportions before long. Piss on the politicos and media that are aiding and abetting those that wish us harm. What would be simpler to address now - as in calling the enemy by it's name and not backing down...they let it fester. The result of waiting will be bloodier. That is what will visit upon my son - may God watch over him - is ignorance, greed, cowardice.

#87 jester6

My conclusion was Moderate Muslims, whether they exist or not, are irrelevant. Whether Islam is a stronger phsycologicl force because of its mix of politicas, religion, economics and law is also irrelevant.

But in the end, even if you assume all party members are zealots, 90 percent of the population will just go along for the ride.

Kudos, you've got it dead on. And that culture is built to go along for the ride.

It really is a straw-man argument as to whether their are moderate muslims or not or even if Islam is a religion or not. Islam IS, therefore it must be acknowledged and those that are under its influence call IT a religion. Islam is made up of human beings, just like any other religion. The fundamental truth is that like all religions, their are zealots for the faith, those that can be cajoled along, those that go along to get along, those that stand and sit down when they are suppose to and mouth the words, and those who could give a shit.

Like any other historical/religious movement the zealots move it 'forward' until they meet a wall and wall collapses on them. Who knows what Islam will look like five or ten years from now. I know one thing for sure it won't be run by the Islamo-fascists currently making all the noise and creating all the heartache.

There exist multiple Hadiths, and Sharia interpretations of writings from the Koran and those that have been linked here ad nausea-um by commenter's are the worst of the lot. As Dead Sea Squirrel commented above:

#95 Dead Sea Squirrel 2/27/2006 10:50AM PST
The only significance I can see to the search for "moderate Islam" is that something will have to be there for Muslims to sign on to...
...I don't see a wholesale slaughter of a billion people, and I don't see such mass conversions as to make Islam simply vanish. So some form of reinvented Islam will have to form the basis of any future Islamic faith.

The Iranian MAD Mullah Thugacracy is leading the rest of the Islamo-fascist zealots straight for that wall and it will collapse and overwhelmingly crush them along with their sick Jew-hating, women-bashing, ego centric, xenophobic, western hating world view. This goal will be achieved without mass-slaughter, mass-deportations, the destruction of Israel, and without a world war. The USA & Israel will survie this battle, and as yet the sky hasn't fallen...

-- DRG --...
;>P

#148 Roger
Well that depends on what the definition of "is" is.
/Cliton

#167: With all due respect, I'm tired of hearing this "interpretation" argument. If a text says "Kill! Kill! Kill!" many times, isn't it more likely that somebody actually interprets it as calling for, well, killing? Texts aren't infinitely elastic, you know. How come those who blow themselves up always "misunderstand" Islam? How come they don't "misunderstand" Winnie the Pooh?

Muslims are more violent than others because they follow texts that are more violent than others, in fact probably uniquely so among ALL the major religions on earth today:

Islam is the most Warlike Religion

A Danish language researcher has spent over three years analyzing the original texts of ten different religions, and concludes that the Islamic texts stand out by encouraging terror and violence to a larger degree than other religions do. Four years after the terror attacks at the World Trade Center, Danish linguist Tina Magaard presents an analysis that questions Islam’s relationship with terror, violence and Holy War.

Islamic texts encourage terror and fighting to a far larger degree than the original texts of other religions, concludes Tina Magaard. She has a PhD in Textual Analysis and Intercultural Communication from the Sorbonne in Paris, and has spent three years on a research project comparing the original texts of ten religions. “The texts in Islam distinguish themselves from the texts of other religions by encouraging violence and aggression against people with other religious beliefs to a larger degree. There are also straightforward calls for terror. This has long been a taboo in the research into Islam, but it is a fact that we need to deal with," says Tina Magaard. Moreover, there are hundreds of calls in the Koran for fighting against people of other faiths. “If it is correct that many Muslims view the Koran as the literal words of God, which cannot be interpreted or rephrased, then we have a problem. It is indisputable that the texts encourage terror and violence. Consequently, it must be reasonable to ask Muslims themselves how they relate to the text, if they read it as it is," says Tina Magaard.

Powderfinger #150

Let's start with the Baptists who insist that as a Catholic, I'm going to Hell for not buying the One True Way they're selling. For that matter, Fred Phelps considers himself a Christian. Is he a supremacist? Yup.

As you yourself said, they can tell you to go to hell, but picking up the sword is another story. Fred Phelps is a vile aberration, I do not know of any Evangelical, Catholics or mainline Christians that do not think so, and say so.

You seem to think I care about them, and I can assure you that I don't. I'm also not equating the two, simply pointing out that extreme attitudes can be found all over the place. I'm not suggesting that any Christians pose a threat. Again, people can believe that God is a cheesecake who lives on the Moon for all I care. Until they turn to the sword, then we have a problem.

I don't know if you care about them or not, I am just pointing out that claiming there are "legions," of Christian Supremacists the likes of Fred Phelps, or some militia nuts humping around in the Dakotas is hyperbole and you know it.

Something that is attacked here when people do it regarding a religion that is proven to produce fanatical enemies to all things Western. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I think the distinction should be made clear that there is no comparison to be made between Christianity, or any religion on earth, to Islam. And while I have moderated my views (as you may know) about this GWOT, by interaction on these boards with other posters...

I do not agree that we have the luxury or time to know the motives of each individual Muslim. We are facing a system that produces hate in a large portion of its members, and cows the rest to silence or even grudging consent. The West must wake up and stop apologizing and agonizing. We are not them, nor do we think like these people.

And any attempts to contrast our belief systems to theirs is an error. Not saying you were doing that specifically, but your statement came across as if this is just another fanatic belief (like crazy Christians) to deal with.

In reality we don't seem to have a problem dealing with our own crazies. Witness Waco, and the swift justice for Timothy McVeigh. I will take a bet that Fred Phelps and his nuts will be descredited, sued, and eventually fade from memory. Yet CAIR can now control the free speech of a major radio host, and our MSM will not print cartoons that offend Muslims, and us with less than one percent Muslim population.

And our President (whom I admire) still finds it nescessary to utter inane and untrue platitudes regarding the RoP.

You want to bring this thing to a head in a hurry? Invent a source of power that uses grass, corn or some other easily grown crop and push it out to the public as fast as possible. Well easily grown unless you live arid, dry, desert covering large reserves of oil which would almost overnight be worthless and then make them dependent on the western world for their energy sources, or they could continue using their oil that is until there were no longer any engines in existence which used it.
/just dreaming

172 Just_A_Grunt

How about just building two Nuclear Reactor Energy stations like Missouri's Callaway in every state.

or three or four. unlimited Electrical power for very little cost.

then the green weenies can have their electric cars.

#164 Roger
She's not really Muslim, she's Catholic. It's just a gimmik I use from sometimes, it works well against ati-semites as well. After they rant on for a while, just mention that your Mom is Jewish and enjoy the uncomfortable silence. I wish I had a darker complexion so I could do it with racists as well.
I do have plenty of Muslim friends though, and dated Muslim women. It's a fine line but things like Fjordman's #169 is a perfectly valid line of debate, even among moderate Muslims. But to say all Muslims are evil killers at heart wouldn't go over as well.
The rule of thumb I try to stick to is; Don't say anything you wouldn't say in front of someone's Mom.

Keepandbear

How about just building two Nuclear Reactor Energy stations like Missouri's Callaway in every state.

The billionare Jane Fonda made sure this cannot happen.

175 jehu

Anything that is done can be undone.

/I'm sure some really smart philosopher said that sometime in the past

Keepandbear 176

Are you thinking Jane will make a movie extolling the virtues of nuclear power, denouncing CNN, and saying how cool those western movies of her dad and Jimmy Stewart were?

And I thought I had faith! :-)

I see the problem as that, unlike Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism or Judaism, Islam is a totalitarian, imperialistic political movement. Islam does not have a peaceful founder, au contraire. It clearly states it intends to conquer the world and impose sharia on us all. (And btw, an "infidel" man cannot marry a muslim woman. A muslim man can marry an infidel woman, but of course any children will be raised muslim.)

There are many fine people that adhere to civilized version of islam, which involves ignoring what the religion actually requires. I'm sure there were also many lovely people who supported Hitler, but would have been quick to disassociate from Naziism's "excesses."

I have come to believe that islam is at least as destructive as naziism. We do not need to, and should not, kill more muslims than self-defense requires. But, we need to quit pretending we believe islam is, somehow, a "religion of peace," and compatible with Western civilization. We need to challenge it as the rancid, violent religion/totalitarian blight that it is.

But on a serious note I wish Bush would announce a NATO like program to make America energy independent in 10 years. That would totally confuse and derail his political opposition (how could they argue against it?).

It would defund the Whabbist states, revitalize the American economy, and do more collateral good than any single act.

/dreaming

#163 Keep,

But I'm a Baptist, so could we use Mormans or something

Yeah Powderfinger, lol, But seriously not once have I heard my preacher say anything bad about the Cathlics, course he doesn't say anything about the terrorists either.

jehu & keep
The only reason she still breathes is becuase I haven't found a high hide.

USMC RECON

You and me both bro. John McCain we are not. Not that I think Johnny did all the forgiving he pretends he has, once in a while the mask slips.

#169 Fjordman 2/27/2006 12:28PM PST

My computer is putting on the screen what I type and Charles' software is publishing my comment as typed, but your not reading what I typed, which is fine, however I wrote more than one sentence...

I don't 'have a dog in the fight' with you and am not looking for anyone's agreement with my point of view, my comment was directed toward Charles' Post of Warren's Essay, I disagree with his basis and conclusion...

I appreciate your response, I simply don't agree for the reasons I stated in #167 above...
-- DRG --...
;>P

169 fjordman

I agree that "reinterpret" is too weak. Even worse is "reform." What is needed is a reinvention. Is this possible?

The only hope, in my view, would be for courageous scholars to force a confrontation with the early copies of the Koran, which contain enough scribal divergence from the standard edition to prove that it is a humanly redacted document. This would have to be demonstrated fully and irrefutably, and these facts would have to be taught tirelessly.

The results could be dramatic. Once the idea of divine dictation gives way to acceptance of fallible human transmission with regard to sacred writings, the door is opened to reconsideration, reinterpretation, and even reinvention. With the ability to make critical decisions about the text comes the obligation to do so, and so comes a critical reading of literature that had to be taken with wooden literalness under the old mindset. "Jihad" can then be taken as a symbolic, inner struggle, etc.

Not saying any of this is likely, just pointing out a possible path to a possible future Islam.

181 USMC RECON

See Jehu

Here is the Undone

#184 Dead Sea Squirrel, huh?

early copies of the Koran describe a Religion of Peace?

#160 Kilgore Trout

Just now saw your acknowledgement on the Velvet Prophet thread re Winds of Jihad. You're welcome and I'm glad it works! Now I'll try to save it as well.

Again, great find. :)

Those that scream about muslim this and Islam that, they are coming to kill us all 24/7, have already been conquered by them, the muslim terrorists have consumed them totally and that's want they want, so they win! These folks are cowards that's the difference between me and them I'm NOT afraid of them I will kill any terrorist that tries to harm me or my family with both eyes open, the shriekers will just get into the fetal position!

#31 Fjordman

Europe is tired of living. Islam just puts it out of its misery.

Poignant.

#50 Cartman
With all due respect, that's commonly referred to as isolationism. Has historically failed, every time it's been tried.

see above ;)

I spoke to some locals [germans] Sunday night at my local diner and it turned into a forum... Iraq, Israel, the upcoming conflict with Iran. I think I won the discussion with some converts.

One must remember about the EU, the national political elite do NOT represent the citizens on the ground. Socialist democracy isn't very democratic.

#132 mlk

Very true and wholly irrelevant.

As an example look at France. They alone can demolish Moslem world combined. Yet, if Musulman plays his cards right, there is at least even chance that in 20-30 years France will have Sharia and dhimmy status for infidels.

#147 fjordman

You misunderstand, because you believe this will be the same kind of world war as last time, with state actors, Germany invading Poland etc.

But my point was raised in refutation of the statement that we are in a situation like the 1930s. Your statement, mlk, that it would take 20-30 years for France to succumb to shari'a seems to argue that same point since it only took the Nazis about a month with the blitzkreig. Again, my point was not that there is no danger, just that the situation is different from the 1930s when Germany and Japan rolled over unprepared democracies who had watched them arm themselves in the 30s without responding.

Mitt Romney the lovely Mormon Republican governor of Massachussetts--who with lots of help could beat McCain in the next republican presidential primary--was one of the earliest to say listening in on mosques was ok with him. Amen, brother!

Mr. Romney worked on the Salt Lake City 2002 Olympics so he knows all about reforming corrupt Euroweakness and cleaning up cheating scandals.

#180 Nam Grunt

Yeah Powderfinger, lol, But seriously not once have I heard my preacher say anything bad about the Cathlics, course he doesn't say anything about the terrorists either.

I totally hear you. And at the same time, there are Catholics that are obnoxious religious assholes, though most are not. I am absolutely not suggesting that all Baptists are anything. I'm arguing exactly the opposite, and it goes for all muslims too.

Like these guys. I've grown quite fond of Mohammed and Omar (and Ali!), and I'm just really fucking tired of shriekers and absolutists who think we might just as well kill them since they're Muslims. I know an awful lot of our troops feel very much the same way about an awful lot of muslims.

#188 Nam Grunt

:-)

Nam

Be careful you may get a blog about you

look up in the thirties on this thread.

LOL

gotta make like a newborn and headout

Later

KYPD

186 Roger

Nope, that's not what I'm saying. It is a fundamental feature of Islam that the Koran is a perfect copy of a dictation from God. There is no room in such a belief for questioning and reinterpretation. But once you establish that the chain between God and you contains human error (of ANY KIND) it changes the psychology dramatically. You cannot lazily refuse to bring your critical thinking facilities into your religious faith at that point. You have to see your relationship to God as partially independent of scripture, which can contain errors (even if they are believed to be trivial). That opens the door to the varieties in which human language can convey truth. Spiritual and allegorical interpretations can be attached to violent and exclusive language. Jews and Christians have done this with biblical texts since ancient times.

#170 jehu

Matthew 7:15.

That is all.

#188 Nam Grunt

Did you see those gold medal winning French guys skiing & shooting? Who knew! Maybe they can defend the Alps this time.

PS, if anyone watched last night's NBC Olympic closing ceremony coverage at 7pm--they had a tribute to veteran Wyoming soldier Vernon Baker the Buffalo Soldier whose troops liberated alpine Italy from the Germans defending something called the "Gothic" line in the mountains.

It would have been nice if Pres. Bush the first and his Defense Sec. Cheney had gotten around to giving these black American military men their Congressional Medals of Honor for service in WWII instead of Pres. Clinton in 1997.

But it was something to see--footage of Italians greeting him 60 years later made me cry for the sacrifices of his 19 soldiers storming the mountain nest of guns.

Lee Harris on the potential (pending?) Iraqi civil war, via Instapundit
On the Brink; But of What?

Iraq is not on the brink of a civil war, as we understand it from our own experience; rather it is on the brink of something that no American, based on his own experience of civil life within his nation, can possibly hope to grasp in its full horror -- namely, tribalist anarchy.

#192 Powderfinger,

I know an awful lot of our troops feel very much the same way about an awful lot of muslims.

You are GD right, I talk to them every night via email. The shriekers are losers they are scared to death of anything muslim. POS's in my book and probably trashy cowards at that (butt ugly). I received an email a long time ago from one of our Brave Men in Afghanistan and he said there is a difference between Islam and the death cult.

#196 Dead Sea Squirrel

But once you establish that the chain between God and you contains human error (of ANY KIND) it changes the psychology dramatically. You cannot lazily refuse to bring your critical thinking facilities into your religious faith at that point.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! Get that squirrel his kewpie doll!

/that's how I got to be a lapsed Catholic

#200 Nam Grunt

and he said there is a difference between Islam and the death cult.

I might disagree with him just enough to say that there's a difference between a muslim and the death cult. But, yeah.

#188 Grunt

You speak words of truth.

When the time comes, we will.

#194 Keepandbear,

I have always wanted to get published, and if it's for free, even better LOL!

#203 USMC RECON,

You speak words of truth.

I learned my lessons well in counterinsurgency training, those that are consumed by the enemy in their minds have lost and become surrogates to the enemy, oh wait! LOL.

196 Dead Sea Squirrel

It is a fundamental feature of Islam that the Koran is a perfect copy of a dictation from God

How fundamental is this for all Muslims? I don't know the answer but I suspect there are lots of Muslims who consider themselves devout followers of Allah yet don't believe this.
And no, don't tell me that the Imam says if they don't believe that they are not Muslims. Jerry Falwell says if you don't believe in the inerrant word of God in the OT and NT you aren't a Christian.

Yeah, if you will be able to recognize the enemy...

From what is being posted here, I find it doubtful that recognition will happen...

I'm not worried. We'll always have bloviating pompous asses around to tell us who that enemy is.

200 Nam Grunt

POS's in my book and probably trashy cowards at that (butt ugly).

tell me how your really feel!

#205 A.I.

Identifying the enemy is only a problem when trying to insure no civilians are hurt. When faced with an armed combatant or rioter, the choice is easy. I've picked bad apples out of a barrel before and am ready to do it again.

Powderfinger 197

Yep, no matter what clothes they are wearing.

#208 Sarah Dear,

I'm not worried. We'll always have bloviating pompous asses around to tell us who that enemy is.

Badda Boom, Badda Bing...rim shot. LOL!

Great article. I would appreciate it if someone here would go over to Jack Kelly's site, Irish Pennants and give me some help reg. this port controversy. There's a guy on there who is going to explode with rage about it and I can't figure out if he is a conservative or a liberal masquerading as a conservative or a moonbat plain and simple. I can't figure Kelly out either. He's ashamed of his fellow conservatives? Because we are worried about our ports?

#205 Possibly American Infidel, but maybe not

That depends on which side you're on.

#209 Jim in Virginia,

Hey buddy. ;-)

#200 Nam
#202 powderfinger

there's a difference between a muslim and the death cult. But, yeah.

There's still plenty of lovely moslem cultural heritage in Spain--architecture, Arabian horses, arabic influence in food, music, attitude, gardens, carpet weaving, jewelry, metalwork, pottery, ceramics, even lace shawls and mantillas derived from Burqas...plus negatives such as tribalism, anarchism, machismo, groupthink, guerrilla war fare (just another word for perpetual jihad), etc. that contributed to the rise of Spain's Collectivist/Communist/Socialist faction during the Spanish Civil War.

Much of that lovely moslem heritage came to the new world and California and Texas and Florida with Spanish Catholic missionaries. We are all touched by moslem culture in this country whether we know it or not.

#211 jehu

Damn straight. Actions speak a lot louder than words.

#216 Not so American Infidel

You're talking about people who want to undermine the Constitution of the United States of America, aren't you?

Near as I can tell, you're one of them.

#213 David2,

We have the same problem here, just can't find patriotic Americans anymore. LOL!

Or maybe people who cloak themselves in the constitution as the try and destroy our country.

A.I.
Not Yet.

When they think they can ,they will and then the real fun starts.

The current wave of JIHAD in America is not being waged by gun toting jihadists...

Deport them. Deeepooort theeem! NOW!

/AI translator

pimf, the=they

#196 Dead Sea Squirrel 2/27/2006 01:30PM PST

you are neither dead, nor a squirrel, and I appreciate the sea of knowledge you share...
-- DRG --...
;>P

184 Dead Sea Squirel- reading more posts up thread, good points here.
I just read Bernard Lewis' History of Islam; he notes that there is little critical scholarship on the early years of the faith. And Islam has nothing like the "Jesus Project" (scholars' guesses on what parts of the Gospel Jesus said and what was later made up.)

#196 Dead Sea Squirrel, very, very true. A perfect example is Abram becoming Abraham; not a whole lot of Scripture at his disposal. And yet Judaism and Christianity have valuable Scriptures even though many castigate them [without ever reading].

#206 Nam Grunt

I learned my lessons well in counterinsurgency training, those that are consumed by the enemy in their minds have lost and become surrogates to the enemy

The Grunt wisdom is strong. :-)

Sarah D- oh no- you've gone over to the Dark side of the Force...

USMC RECON,

Like I have said to you before, I'm coming to your AO and bringing patriots with me. LOL!

#226 Jim in Virginia

And Islam has nothing like the "Jesus Project" (scholars' guesses on what parts of the Gospel Jesus said and what was later made up.)

You can make some otherwise rational people completely lose their shit with that. Very educated guesses, I might add.

#110 Killgore Trout

I suggest you should make some Muslim friends. It's fun, they can be nice people. You might even fall in love and marry a Muslim!

I made some Muslim friends in college, they were very Westernized and "liberal". But the moment I brought up Israel, I realized I could not be friends with them anymore. Even the not-as-observant ones had nothing good to say about Jews. One girl, a Syrian, complained a lot about "typical Jewish attitudes" and another, a Pakistani girl, complained to me that her Jewish prof was being a hardass and admitted that she was prejudiced against Jews. The only Muslims that I have met that had no ill feelings towards Jews were the ones bordering apostasy and the self-declared apostates who were able to leave their Islamic baggage behind. You see, Islam is more than a religion, it's also politics and the Jews figure prominently in their political beliefs. The chances of a practicing Muslim having no ill feelings towards Jews is slim, and I'm not willing to take that chance and put up with their Mossad conspiracies and their "commentary" on Jewish culture. So, thank you but no. I'll keep the apostates and you can keep your precious "moderates".

#200 Nam
#202 powderfinger

Forgot to mention the almighty GUITAR and its predecessors (uds, or lutes?) was a favorite moslem instrument in Andalusia (Al Andalus) the Spanish took around the world to all their colonies. Where would Western music be without the guitar?

So yes we have lots of moslem cultural heritage we appreciate whether we know it or not, especially in things Tex/mex--citrus marinades of fajitas meats, cumin, gazpacho, salsa, rice dishes, etc.

'Nam Grunt,

I figure we can field a full rifle platoon.

Should make for some fun.

#221 Murqtaad

Or maybe people who cloak themselves in the constitution as the try and destroy our country.

Fuck them too.

/especially Ted Kennedy!

#228 Powderfinger, there is such a thing too as underestimating the enemy and it's capabilities of using tools and the fifth column.

This might be a good time for folks to go back and reread Bill Whittle's Tribes

#232 igor, I've had similar experience and got the same impressions and correlations.

#233 alegrias,

especially in things Tex/mex--citrus marinades of fajitas meats, cumin, gazpacho, salsa, rice dishes, etc.

You just had to go and mention my favorite food, damn you. ;-)

Don't you dare question Ted's patriotism! Wait, I mean alcoholism!

Powderfinger- educated guesses based on what you think he should have said. You're right, lots of potential for nasty argments on this.
From way upthread:

a huge prison work camp on the Alaskan tundra

How about one in the Mississippi delta? 90 degrees, 100% humidity, huge mosquitoes...

#238 Powderfinger,

He's my man, did I ever tell you that he sent me a long and personal email one night about 3am, what a guy. I was so honored.

#228 Roger

#228 Powderfinger, there is such a thing too as underestimating the enemy and it's capabilities of using tools and the fifth column.

Absolutely. And I don't recommend it. I'm also aware that it isn't just islamists we've got to worry about, we've got a nice crop of socialists with too many tentacles in too many places.

There are lots of people who want to see our way of life end. Fortunately, we're just better than them in almost every way.

/American supremecist on
//Not kidding at all

This "all Muslims are eeevil and the enemy and must be destroyed" talk makes me uncomfortable. Declaring a death sentence upon a group of people for actions that they *might* be considering because of their religion sounds a lot like the extremist Muslim invective against Jews.

#242 Jim in Virginia,

How about one in the Mississippi delta? 90 degrees, 100% humidity, huge mosquitoes...

Yeah and while they are here they can help clean up this mess before the next 'cane blows in. LOL! (manual labor of course)!

#242 Jim in Virginia 2/27/2006 01:59PM PST

you forgot to mention these nice fellows !

-- DRG --...
;>P

#239 Roger

Ditto. Last week a former acquaintance spouted antisemitic complaints President Bush had done "everything" wrong in Iraq, and this French guy was going to sit back and enjoy watching Iraq implode because the US' policy was "unbalanced" towards you know who.

I'm female but came close to punching out his lights. Instead I walked out of the event to which he invited me, but not before greeting a fellow with whom I survived a hellish 9/11 blocks from the White House.

Our troops are fighting and dying to liberate moslems. How dare this French wimp imply we're not.

#245 SwampWoman

You are a blind cowering wimp!

/AI off

I'm not sure what "ANNIHILIATION" is, but it does seem that someone who has absolutely no experience with killing is awful eager to have someone (other than herself) do lots of it.

#244 Powderfinger, yes as long as they[neosocialists & jihadis] don't figure out how to work together.

#242 Jim in Virginia

How about one in the Mississippi delta? 90 degrees, 100% humidity, huge mosquitoes...

Heh. But the basis of O'Reilly's Alaska idea is that escaping would be a bitch. If you get outside the walls, you're free to go. The only question is where, and how do you manage it before you freeze to death?

It's an environmental approach, working with nature! :-)

#245 Swampy,

Kiss on the cheek, my lady!

jim in v., roger, powder, drg. --thanks for the kind remarks.

Here are a couple of quick links on the textual vagaries of the Koran. This one from an agnostic/athiestic standpoint:

[Link: atheism.about.com...]

and this one from an Islamic site:

[Link: www.submission.org...]

The Islamic site frankly admits to the existence of textual errors in copies of the Koran, but it pins its hopes on a "Bible Code"-like mathematical "miracle" that supposedly shows that the standard edition faithfully represents the true, flawless original. What needs to be done here is the same thing that is done with the "Bible Code" stuff: tedious, tireless analysis by people trained in statistics and probability. Many a "miraculous" numerical phenomenon melts away beneath such scrutiny.

#240 Nam Grunt

Forgot Pico de Gallo! I was just trying to explain some of the delicious cultural things moslems brought to Spain.

Barbecued Pork was NOT a moslem food, sorry to say.

(Thankfully the pig-loving Celts in Galicia, Northern Spain, were not conquered by the moslem invasion--hardy folk, as their descendant Fidel Castro has shown us--else Columbus would not have had pigs on board his ships to bring to America.)

I'm getting hongry.

I would bet a dollar to a doughnut, that these same cowards that are conquered by the enemy and wish for doomsday are anti semetic and non citizens of the USA, and their feet stink!

#253 Nam

Kiss back atcha, my dear.

#255 alegrias,

You and me are going to have to hook up, I can cook all of that stuff, if you are married bring him too if not oh my! LOL.

522 powderfinger
See #248.

Poke Salad Annie, gators got your granny,,,

I rest my case.

(Thanks DRG)

I find a lot of the comments on this thread to be demoralizing. When we start talking about annihilating people -- the vast majority of whom are going about their lives in peace -- we've become monsters ourselves. The soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan who work on a day-to-day basis with muslims would probably be horrified by the idea of destroying whole peoples because they are simply muslims.

Kill the jihadis? Sure, let's bring everything we can to bear on them, so long as we try to avoid killing those who are just trying to go about their business. But when you kill for the sake of killing you only give the fanatical elements of the enemy strength and drive the innocent into their arms. Let's not do the terrorists' work for them, okay?

#254 Dead Sea Squirrel, thanks for the links.

The koran "ultimate mathematics" code
[Link: www.quran.org...]

#82 alegrias

"#61 igor

And if we pull out all of our Western foregin workers in their countries, they will surely collapse"

Nice fantasy but there is an endless supply of striving, ambitious & ruthless folks ready to work for and with rich oil countries--China for one, India for another. Not to mention all those leftist collectivist folks who are simpatico with islamofascists--Russia, France, Malaysia, etc.

---

And your point is? Let them deal with that problem and not us. Let the Chinese or the Indians send their workers over there (and treat them badly, as any Indian foregin worker could attest to). The quality of technology and medicine that those Arab countries will be receiving will not match the the quality they once received from America and Europe. And with Arab princes no longer welcome at the Mayo clinic, where will they go? China? India? Believe me, it will hurt them more than it will hurt us.

I noticed you included France, but if they have learned anything from the beur riots, they would stop aiding their enemies abroad with jizya and financial aid. Getting our people out of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States would be better for America in the long run. We wouldn't have an Arabist lobby anymore, we could stop pretending that any of the Muslims states are our "staunch allies", and the jizya would stop flowing. This would save us more money and we could use it for finding alternative energy sources.

I want to get off of oil. I don't want those corrupt little princes holding us by the balls because they happen to be sitting on the world's biggest oil reserves. I want that to stop, but we must make take the first step. And I don't want these same princes spending their petrol dollars on American businesses like FOX News and this port deal. The business lobby has already caved into Islam (e.g. Larry Kudlow calling everyone opposed to the UAE port deal an "Islamophobe"), we don't want Islam to have anymore influence, atleast I don't.

So this fantasy of mine would actually pan out pretty well for the West. There would be less concessions overall. But there needs to be a will (and America cannot do it alone) or else it will remain a fantasy.

#261 Joncelli,

Hand Salute! Great post.

254 DSSq- way OT, I've run into Baptists who believed in the literal inerrancy of the Bible as revealed in the King James version. (Don't bother to read the original Greek or Hebrew, it will just confuse you.)
It reminds me of the Islamic belief that the Koran can not be successfully translated (it can only be interpreted in other languages). Allah only speaks Arabic?

#186 Roger

...early copies of the Koran describe a Religion of Peace?

We have no idea. The only source of such qur'anic exegesis, AFAIK, are the Sana'a (Yemen) pre-Uthmanic quranic remnants. Professor Puin has thousands of these photographed but, for obvious self-presrvation reasons, they have never been released to Western scholars.

Fascinating stuff:

Pre-Uthmanic qur'ans

I reckon the truth is that these documents will show conclusively that the qur'an, far from being the received word of godhead of the islamic belief system, is rather a tract cobbled together over centuries to validate the various islamic sects' biases and and legitimacy.

#257 American Infidel

Ahhh lookie here, it appears that the U.S. Coast Guard is not as sure as it was reported about UAE taking over the management of ports

They raised questions, the questions were resolved to the Coast Guard's satisfaction and they ended up sighning off on the deal.

"In this case, the concerns that you're citing were addressed and resolved," Clay Lowry, the Treasury Department's assistant secretary for international affairs, told lawmakers.

The Coast Guard indicated to The Associated Press that it did not have serious reservations about the ports deal on Feb. 10, when the news organization first inquired about potential security concerns.

/yet another non-story story, sorry, sky not falling

261 Joncelli - Amen! The difference between our enemies and ourselves- the difference between the IDF or the US Army and HAMAS.
HAMAS sends a 19 year old kid on a bus loaded with infants and elderly. The IDF responds with targeted hits on leaders and jihadis. We feel guilty at collateral damage, they plan on and rejoice in it.

#261 Joncelli

So is Mussharaf right or is the US right?
[Link: www.iht.com...]
Do you think this was wrong? Was there enough avoidance of civilian casualties?

#72

"I personally know several moderate muslims who would take up arms to protect America."

Really? I work with some moslems. The last thing those particular moslems would do is take up arms to protect America. But then, half of the Americans in the country wouldn't, either.

#267 Killian Bundy,

Oops, had to go outside and check again looked up at the sky and nope, it still hasn't fell an inch. carry on. Nice and sunny though (and I should be fishing) LOL!

#270 hiker,

No offense, but how in your great wisdom do you know that? You sound like you have a paper a$$hole!

#247 infidel

So yes, WE as Americans

Are you now claiming to be an American? Did you ntake the Naturilaztion Oath?

#272 'Nam Grunt

paper asshole? I've never heard this slam before:-) Not sure what it means. Any hint?

#274 Roger,

Weak bowels scare them and they s**t all over themselves, old Army junk. LOL!

#260 Jim In Virginia

I'm completely lost, probably because the linky no workee.

#276 UnAmerican Idiot

You can ask that question from now till doomsday and I shall not answer...

Which means you cannot be trusted. You might as well, just shut the fuck up, commie. Your input isn't necessary.

#275 'Nam Grunt, ah. Paper is so extremely weak I didn't get it.

#245 Swamps

If you have seen the new thread, then you might understand why I feel the same way about the cult of islam. That they want to annihilate 'all the Jews' is no surprise: they also have every single non-cult member in their sights...Christians, Hindus, Baha'ai , Buddhists, et al included.

Declaring a death sentence upon a group of people for actions that they *might* be considering because of their religion sounds a lot like the extremist Muslim invective against Jews.

None of us is issuing a death sentence on them: they have issued one on us, and I do not think anyone can afford to just sit there and wait. 'Extremistmuslim' is one word.

266 Earl

Thanks! That was the link I was trying to find earlier.

Open question for everyone reading the thread: Are you an American?

I am, and I'm proud of it!