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Vatican Change of Heart over Crusades

Sun, Mar 19, 2006 at 6:31:13 pm PST

We’ve been noticing that the Vatican under Pope Benedict XVI has been taking a much stronger stance against the global jihad, and today the Times reports that this new attitude is leading to a reexamination of the Crusades: Vatican change of heart over ‘barbaric’ Crusades. (Hat tip: Allah.)

THE Vatican has begun moves to rehabilitate the Crusaders by sponsoring a conference at the weekend that portrays the Crusades as wars fought with the “noble aim” of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity.

The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence that have underpinned Western aggression towards the Arab world ever since. Followers of Osama bin Laden claim to be taking part in a latter-day “jihad against the Jews and Crusaders”.

The late Pope John Paul II sought to achieve Muslim-Christian reconciliation by asking “pardon” for the Crusades during the 2000 Millennium celebrations. But John Paul’s apologies for the past “errors of the Church” — including the Inquisition and anti-Semitism — irritated some Vatican conservatives. According to Vatican insiders, the dissenters included Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

Pope Benedict reached out to Muslims and Jews after his election and called for dialogue. However, the Pope, who is due to visit Turkey in November, has in the past suggested that Turkey’s Muslim culture is at variance with Europe’s Christian roots.

At the conference, held at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, Roberto De Mattei, an Italian historian, recalled that the Crusades were “a response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands and the Muslim devastation of the Holy Places”.

“The debate has been reopened,” La Stampa said. Professor De Mattei noted that the desecration of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem by Muslim forces in 1009 had helped to provoke the First Crusade at the end of the 11th century, called by Pope Urban II.

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282 comments

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1 michael moore's coffin  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:33:43pm

very cool stuff. Thanks Charles!

2 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:37:42pm

But religion really has nothing to do with this conflict.

3 sonofsheldon  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:38:28pm

I'm liking this pope more and more. A European leader who demands more than dhimmi status. I hope his attitude spreads.

4 nonic  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:40:43pm

About time.

(Spoken as a faithful Catholic -- who knows a little bit about history.)

5 zombie  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:41:54pm

A crusade to revive the reputation of the Crusades?

Declear the crudase and be unite!

6 Michael in MI  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:42:23pm

This is excellent. We are at a time in history when people need to know the TRUTH about the Crusades, not the distortions that the Islamic propaganda machine puts out saying that the Christians were the aggressors and the Islamists the defenders.

7 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:42:25pm

Yes. Let's talk all about it. Especially the part about why it was deemed necessary in the first place.

8 Luigi  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:42:28pm

Best map site, including historical

[Link: www.lib.utexas.edu...]

Crusader states, 1140

[Link: www.lib.utexas.edu...]

9 Ruthless  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:42:39pm

It's about time someone in Yurp starts to notice that you don't have to apologize to your friends, and your enemies will pay it no heed. Go, Pope Joe!

10 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:43:15pm
The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence...

You mean, as in a war?

///

11 zombie  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:43:55pm

For more information:

The Legacy of Jihad by Andrew Bostom.

REALLY puts the Crusades in historical perspective.

Should be required reading in every high school.

12 m  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:44:58pm

Oh wow!

/not all eloquent, but DAMN!

13 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:45:35pm

I think I love this man. And I'm Lutheran.

14 brenda  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:45:57pm

No Koran kissing so far. Let's keep it that way!

15 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:46:09pm

I'm not Catholic, but this guy might actually be a true holy man

16 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:46:10pm

5 zombie

Declear the crudase and be unite!

Anything ending in -ase is an enzyme, and so crudase must be the enzyme that breakes down crud. So they want to declear it, which means mess it up. So I think what they're saying is they mean they want to mess up what gets rid of crud. Which mankes sense, seeing who they are.

17 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:48:55pm
“The debate has been reopened


I nominate that for rotating title.

18 Live4Truth  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:49:06pm

This is a fascinating development. And if it turns out to be true (that the Crusades were mostly a justifiable act of defense) then it's mighty annoying and disturbing that they have been depicted as they have been, for all these years (and especially within western civilization).

19 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:50:29pm

#16 E2M

Crudase, crud-eating enzyme.

Funny, I never looked at it that way before. Imagine the possibilities...

.
.
Mankes?

20 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:52:24pm

The Discovery Channel 'docu-drama' about potential F-5 Dallas tornado just spoiled by too many mistakes and inaccuracies.


Darn shame, really.

21 capt.fishsticks  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:53:37pm

...crudase as an enzyme...i think of it more as a form of chemo-therapy to the worse kind of cancer known to humankind (see isLame)...

22 D'kian_  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:53:45pm

Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, and many other lands were Christian before islamic armies overran them. Then came the Crusaes. In effect, the Crusaders were merely doing unto Islam what Islam had done unto Christendom.

Naturally this ticks all Muslims off. After all, who are the Christians to treat Muslims as infidels?

23 Powderfinger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:53:48pm
“The debate has been reopened,” La Stampa said. Professor De Mattei noted that the desecration of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem by Muslim forces in 1009 had helped to provoke the First Crusade at the end of the 11th century, called by Pope Urban II.

I'm still enormously bent out of shape over the Balestinian killbots desecrating the Church of the Nativity, and then being let go.

24 Ringo the Gringo  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:53:48pm

Just today I was talking with my wife about wheather or not we should have our four month old daughter baptised in the Catholic Church... both of us are non-practicing Catholics.

I'll take this as a sign.

25 Promethea  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:54:13pm

I like this new Pope. He seems to be much more sensible than my dhimmi Rabbi.

I'd like to see much more reevaluation of the Crusades. I noticed in Borders Bookstore an entire shelf devoted to novels in the genre of The Da Vinci Code. These novels seems to have a crusader theme. I didn't buy any because I thought I'd wait and see what LGFers think about some of these novels. I rely on LGF book reviews for most of my reading and book buying.

As #11 Zombie said--The Legacy of Jihad by Andrew Bostom is a great book.

Plus, as an ADDED BONUS, you get a picture of Mohammad on the cover--by a Persian miniaturist. I wonder why the Motoon people didn't notice this.

26 PSGInfinity  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:54:25pm

#20 Ed of Many Names

Really? What were the most obvious?

27 varmint  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:54:43pm

somewhere, karen armstrong is giving birth to very ugly snaggletoothed kittens.

john

[Link: www.attackcartoons.com...]

28 St. Pancake  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:54:59pm

I, for one, am most delighted to see this topic reopened! Praise be! I may no longer have to tread water in class. On the other hand, with my class make-up,.......

29 religion of bacon  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:54:59pm

an Italian historian, recalled that the Crusades were “a response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands and the Muslim devastation of the Holy Places”

Cue sound of Moose-lim heads seething and exploding in 3.. 2.. 1..

30 PostWatch  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:55:12pm

The late Pope John Paul II sought to achieve Muslim-Christian reconciliation by asking “pardon” for the Crusades during the 2000 Millennium celebrations.

I don't believe that's quite right. John Paul apologized for some of the truly horrific barbarities of the Crusades, not the entire enterprise (or really enterprises). It was couched in some pretty vague language IIRC.

Similarly, I don't believe that then-Cardnial Ratzinger was a "dissenter" to either JP2's statement about the Crusades or anti-Semitism. Just for starters, in the case of the latter, the Catholic Church (my church) has a pretty sorry history regarding anti-Semitism. One of the distingushing glories of both JP2 and Ratzinger/Benedict, however, is their interest in repairing relations with Jews, something Benedict endorsed and pursued on his own.

I didn't pay as much attention to what was said about the Inquisition. Because, you know, nobody expects the...

There probably is a shift under way, however, in the Vatican's attitude toward modern-day Islam; I do believe Ratzinger sees the threat of Islamofascism more clearly than John Paul did.

31 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:55:20pm

Hey Ed Mahmoud! Where ya been?

Are you following the Cat 5 cyclone in Queensland, Australia?

32 m  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:56:57pm

#17 mama winger

“The debate has been reopened”

I nominate that for rotating title.

Oh, imma get a t-shirt or something!

I'm not Catholic either, but this is huge.

33 alkmyst  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:57:14pm

One the one hand, this slightly disturbs me that they mention

the “noble aim” of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity.

As I'm a Jew that happens to live in Jerusalem.

However, if by this they mean to conquer the "Holy Cities" of mekkah, medina, falluja, qom, et al...

Well, that's a different story...

34 religion of bacon  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:59:29pm

It's a nice touch that this statement comes at the same time as Oriana Fallaci's latest book is published in the US. She needs all the encouragement she can get...

35 St. Pancake  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 4:59:44pm

alkmyst
This is how I am interpreting it. The Church is simply trying to get a grip with the present day situation in the ME.

36 Beagle  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:01:02pm
"Noble aim"


...but for a few buckets of warm beer...

...with lousy maps which labled "Constantinople and environs" the "Holy Land."

Bad luck, that.

...but Jews kept getting in the way...

...into the Languedoc. France is really nice year round compared to the 'Oly Laande.' And ze wine. Oh-la-la. Cazars do not fight much, unlike ze Zarazens.

...And the pillaging. That wasn't very good, Monzieu...

Well I like the pillaging.

37 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:01:19pm

Fun times due in Austin in a couple of hours.All the English Lit majors that can party hardy on Sunday nights because they never need to study, and might be toasting Texas advancement to the Sweet 16 (meaning the Running Horns are still in contention to join the 2005 baseball Horns and the 2005-2006 Longhorn football teams as national champions, meaning UT will have won all 3 national championships in major men sports within a year, which would rock) might get wet as they stumble drunkenly down 6th Street.

Closeup still image.

55ºF in Georgetown and 74ºF in Austin, so warm front lies in Northern Travis County, and may serve to enhance local helicity and tornado risk, but I just checked doppler velocity, and while winds are quite strong (90 knots) in that cell, no real rotation, yet.

38 scrapiron  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:01:28pm

The Pope is right. Let's get this crusadeII
going. The [bigoted word]s have been itching for it a long time and the MSM has been revising history since the 60's. It is time.........
scrap

39 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:01:40pm

#33 alkmyst

However, if by this they mean to conquer the "Holy Cities" of mekkah, medina, falluja, qom, et al...

Well, that's a different story...

Why would they want those? There's no oil under them. Usless as tits on a boar hog......

40 m  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:02:10pm

#18 Live4Truth

This is a fascinating development. And if it turns out to be true

Whadaya mean, if?

41 alkmyst  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:02:41pm
#19 Spiny Norman 3/19/2006 06:50PM PST

Crudase, crud-eating enzyme.

Funny, I never looked at it that way before. Imagine the possibilities..

I think it's been tried with something for cleaning up oil ticks spills.

Maybe I'm just mixing fact with sci-fi, but I remember hearing something about the bacteria being developed for oil that also broke down oils that are used in the human body.

42 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:02:42pm

I was raised a Baptist at a time when Protestants didn't trust Catholics. I now attend a Lutheran church, the ones that hammered the grievances on the door of the Catholic Church.

Who knew my new best hero would be a Pope!? I love it!

43 Flatlander by the Lake  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:03:27pm

Count me in as another faithful Catholic who is DELIGHTED over this news.

About time we got away from this ludicrous "muzlim-as-victim" farce.

44 Gadfly  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:03:29pm

Gird your belts for the coming anti-Catholic rants. Predictably the first will be Muslims, the second will be the looney left (which will include some christians), followed by the MSM. It will be interesting to see what happens among Catholics, many of whom are very left.

45 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:04:19pm

When this Pope was elected, I spent some time perusing LLL blogs. He got the same treatment basically that Bush gets. Their heads are gonna explode over this. Wait for the outcry.

46 St. Pancake  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:04:29pm

42 mama winger
Hey, I believe the same, only in reverse. :)

47 PostWatch  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:05:50pm

Re my post #30 above, here's a brief comment from a Zenit interview with Jihadwatch's Robert Spencer:

Finally, it is a misconception that Pope John Paul II apologized for the Crusades. He did not.

There is no doubt that the belief that Pope John Paul II apologized for the Crusades is widespread. When he died, the Washington Post reminded its readers "during his long reign, Pope John Paul II apologized to Muslims for the Crusades, to Jews for anti-Semitism, to Orthodox Christians for the sacking of Constantinople, to Italians for the Vatican's associations with the Mafia and to scientists for the persecution of Galileo."

However, John Paul II never actually apologized for the Crusades. The closest he came was on March 12, 2000, the "Day of Pardon."

During his homily he said: "We cannot fail to recognize the infidelities to the Gospel committed by some of our brethren, especially during the second millennium. Let us ask pardon for the divisions which have occurred among Christians, for the violence some have used in the service of the truth and for the distrustful and hostile attitudes sometimes taken toward the followers of other religions."

There are different opinions in Catholic Land about exactly how much ground that statement was intended to cover, and some Catholics at the time were saying enough with the apologies already. But I think Spencer's is a fair statement.

48 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:05:53pm

OT

Anyone catch the opening of "Family Guy" on Fox just now.

Osama is trying to record a suicide video and he keeps cracking up because his other mujhadeen (sp?) keep making faces and cracking jokes.

Stewie (the baby) comes in and takes them all on and Osama ends up with a rubber chicken over his head.

If the show airs later in your time zone, don't miss it.

Walter in (snowy, expecting a foot) Golden, Co.

49 St. Pancake  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:06:02pm

45 mama winger
Oh, I can imagine. The Hitler connection again.

50 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:06:20pm

Too many to list, but the rain of fish, hours ahead of the tornadic storms, was goofy. Not to mention not that many lakes around Dallas. I've heard of it happening in places like Louisiana, but it wouldn't happen far in advance.

Oh, and the 747 1) was not a 747 interior) and 2) would not fly right into a supercell.


The description of a microburst affecting the plane when it was not on final approach didn't seem right to me, either.

I am, however, just an amateur.


The Weather Channel had a very similar idea for a documentary, and I find TWC special effects kinda cheesy, but the basic premise, what if the Moore, OK tornado had been about 250 km farther South, seemed sound.

51 godfrey  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:08:33pm

Count me as another Catholic who is very happy the Pope is clear-sighted on this.

52 nonic  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:08:58pm

#24 Ringo

Are you looking for votes?

I say baptize her.

If it's meaningless or she ignores it, you have done no harm.

If it is meaningful or she comes someday to treasure it (or you do), you have given her the greatest gift after life itself.

Every child is a gift from God -- however the parents understand God. How could (at least symbolically) offering that child back to God be the wrong choice?

53 St. Pancake  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:09:41pm

PostWatch
Ok, for example, some Crusaders did indeed sack Constanintople. My question has always been, what sort of apology, is one needed, and to whom does one apologize to in this case?
The examples could go on, but I will leave it at that.

54 Iron Fist  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:09:47pm

#44 Gadfly,

And we need to be ready to counter them. The Crusades would have never happened if the Muslims hadn't set out to conqure the world.

Crusaders! Gird your loins with Truth, and wield your sword with Justice!

I'm over Muslims rioting and whining and beheading people.

55 insane_kufr  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:11:43pm

Yes!

Finally, a recognition of fact concerning the motivation for the crusades.

Muslim aggression was the impetus for the crusades, not western bloodlust!

GO Papa!

56 ctrlL  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:11:57pm

30 PostPopeWatch

John Paul apologized for some of the truly horrific barbarities of the Crusades, not the entire enterprise (or really enterprises).



Oh, you mean something awful like Abu Ghraib happened then too? Or, did they have a torture place like Gitmo?

/LLL logic

57 m  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:12:12pm

#23 Powderfinger

I'm still enormously bent out of shape over the Balestinian killbots desecrating the Church of the Nativity, and then being let go.

That makes me sick.

58 Jack Reacher  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:12:25pm
...the Crusades were “a response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands and the Muslim devastation of the Holy Places”.

Yes! If only that fact was taught in schools today, instead of trusting young minds to seek out LGF et. al. for information. An apology for the Crusades would literally be like apologizing for the devastation wrought upon Japan and Germany the last couple of years of WWII: Start a war, and then have the temerity to complain that the other side fights back.

59 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:12:52pm

New tornado watch for Central Texas, including drunk Art History and radio-Television-Film majors on 6th Street.


I suppose the engineers might also be threatened, but an engineering student has to be awake and aware in class, so most are watching TV, looking at cable, getting ready to go back to class after Spring Break. I don't know as a fact UT is on break this past week, but all all 6 years I was there (a year working on a Master's before I got too poor and took a job), Spring Break was the same week as St. Patrick's Day.


About the Crusades, I think it is pretty well established fact that some crusaders did very unpleasant things to Jews and Muslims along the way, but wasn't pretty much everyone back then generally unpleasant to each other? I'm not trying to excuse it, but it seems like only Christian Europeans have their behavior of a thousand years ago judged by modern standards of civilization.

60 timc  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:13:27pm

Well, as Ayn Rand has argued, faith and force go hand in hand - they are ultimately inseparable. Until religion is completely separated from politics, and ultimately banished from the realm of human thinking, all forms of the initiation of force, up to and including war, will be with us.

In other words, even if the Christians were in the right (not the initiators of force in the Crusades), it's ridiculous to assert that the Christian way is the right way. Proportionally few people seem to realize just how many people the Catholic Church exercises control over. They just have been a bit quicker than the Muslims in realizing that direct physical force isn't the most practical way for them to go about this aim.

61 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:14:03pm

#47 PostWatch

"We cannot fail to recognize the infidelities to the Gospel committed by some of our brethren, especially during the second millennium. Let us ask pardon for the divisions which have occurred among Christians, for the violence some have used in the service of the truth and for the distrustful and hostile attitudes sometimes taken toward the followers of other religions."

That's quite broad, and can not only be taken as an appology to Muslims for the crusades, but also to Jews for the Crusades and Inquisition, and even could be taken as an appology for the actions of any Catholics involved in the Third Reich.

And it wouldn't be inconsistant to appologize to the Jews for things done during the crusades without similarly appologizing to the Muslims, because one group didn't deserve it, and the other did.

62 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:15:53pm

#53 St. Pancake

PostWatch
Ok, for example, some Crusaders did indeed sack Constanintople. My question has always been, what sort of apology, is one needed, and to whom does one apologize to in this case?

The Eastern Orthodox, I would imagine.

The PR problem the Crusades will never shake off is being the original "Kill them all and let God sort them out" campaign.

63 Stuck in california  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:17:34pm

Ed,

Will they be able to race in Atlanta tomarrow?

64 genard  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:19:10pm

I'm pretty negative toward all religions, montoheisms especially, and Islam in particular.

But I like this Pope.

He takes a defiant stance against the selective memories of the crazed Islamist revisionists who insist they were brutalized by the Crusaders. Not so, or at least not unjustifiably so.

The Muslims invaded and conquered all of the Christian and Jewish Levant, having brutally killed and subjugated millions from Syria to Spain long before the Christians endeavored to rescue their Holy Lands. The Crusades were wars of restoration and rescue long overdue and morally justifiable. The Muslims have always been the scourges of the earth.

65 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:20:32pm

For Austin followers of potentially tornadic weather, looks like front has oscillated back a touch, such that at 9 pm CST Austin-Mabry is in the cold sector, and Austin-Bergstrom is in the warm sector. Not saying a tornado will form, but if one did, it might track right down 6th Street, where I have been drunk.


CITY SKY/WX TMP DP RH WIND PRES REMARKS
GEORGETOWN CLOUDY 55 48 76 N7 29.70F
AUSTIN/BERGSTM CLOUDY 73 66 79 E7 29.66S
AUSTIN/MABRY CLOUDY 63 59 87 NE9G16 29.68R
SAN MARCOS CLOUDY 73 64 73 SE9 29.67S

When in Austin, get the martini in a giant glass from Katz's New York style deli.


Speaking of, mis suegros, mi cuñado, and my wife's abuelos, tia y primos are in New York. Mi suegro has business, and almost the whole family has tagged along for a genuine New York vacation. Staying in Bethpage, out on the Island. Joe Bastardi still thinks NY area might get about 10 cm of snow Tuesday night, but the models aren't supporting that. Now, if he is right, against all the models, well, I'll make another plug for all the good people here to visit [Link: pro.accuweather.com...] and sign up for Pro-AccuWeather service, just $9/month

66 insane_kufr  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:20:54pm

I recently discovered in Bible study that it is a mortal sin, for a Catholic, to miss weekly mass and Holy days of obligation. I need to go to confession!

67 PostWatch  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:21:05pm

Ok, for example, some Crusaders did indeed sack Constanintople.

Actually, that's an example of something John Paul 2 did apologize for, explicitly. I mean sure, them who was sacked are somewhat left out of it. But there aren't too many institutions around that are 2,000 years old, and there is something fitting about acknowledging to history, if nothing else, that we screwed up along the way.

And in this case, there are other awesomely old institutions we could apologize to, leading to awesome moments like this:

Istanbul, Apr. 14, 2004 (CWNews.com) - The leader of the Orthodox Churches on Tuesday formally accepted a 2001 apology offered by Pope John Paul II (bio - news) for the sacking of Constantinople 800 years ago by Catholic Crusaders.

The Pope offered the apology during a trip to Greece, and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, today's Istanbul, formally accepted it on the 800th anniversary of the city's capture. "The spirit of reconciliation is stronger than hatred," Patriarch Bartholomew said during a liturgy, attended by Cardinal Philippe Barbarin of Lyon, France. "We receive with gratitude and respect your cordial gesture for the tragic events of the Fourth Crusade."

Why wait 800 years? We wanted to be really, really sure.

68 Beagle  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:21:54pm

#62 Spiny Norman

original "Kill them all and let God sort them out" campaign


Something like that was, or was not, said by one of the Crusaders or church reps outside Beziers (France) during the Albigensian Crusade.

The Cathar heresy was catching on like sliced bread all over Europe. The organized Inquisition got it's start during the Albigensian Crusade, in sunny southern France.

Now that's a Crusade!

69 mattm  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:22:27pm

This is good news from Europe.

70 LoFlyer  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:23:01pm

This is not meant to offend any Catholics, but I believe the Catholic Church has lot to answer for as to their behavior in WWII. Independent Catholic priests did their best against the Nazi's, but overall I feel the Vatican were Nazi enablers, rather than Nazi fighters. The Vatican has plenty to be scared of in the event of Islamic secularists (supremists) gaining control of Europe. From previous and present history in Islamic sovereignty, Catholics would be slaughtered from the outset of hostilities by Muslims. Under these circumstances, the Vatican is doing little to stem the Islamic advancement in Europe. While this is a positive action, it is only a small step in the defense of western democracy, and I welcome any help by the Catholic Church to preserve itself, along with Europe as we know it.

71 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:23:20pm

Re: My #65

NWS Austin-San Antonio has just issued a tornado warning for Kendall County, for the cell that may be heading for Travis County. Of course, if you are in Blanco, Hays and even Williamson counties, stay alert.

72 St. Pancake  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:24:01pm

Spiny Norman
Yes, it does add clarity to LGF discussions regarding "what to do" thrads.

73 Cartman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:25:42pm

#56 ctrl

Oh, you mean something awful like Abu Ghraib happened then too? Or, did they have a torture place like Gitmo?

Actually, it's a little known historical fact that the Crusaders forced prisoners to stand on one leg for long periods of time with iron panties on their head. ;)

74 alkmyst  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:25:48pm
#39 Earth2moonbat 3/19/2006 07:01PM PST

Why would they want those? There's no oil under them. Usless as tits on a boar hog......

Not really, they could use the land to raise boar-hogs...

;-)

nite y'all

75 PSGInfinity  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:26:15pm

If Bennedict can withstand the inevitable shitstorm (and he probably will), it'll provide an abject lesson in dealing with Islamic bullies...

76 jrdroll  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:26:57pm

#60

Until religion is completely separated from politics


To some folks politics is a religon.

77 Doss  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:28:16pm
78 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:28:28pm

70 LoFlyer

I'm amazed that it took 70 posts before someone dredged this one up. Check this out.

79 Deuce  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:30:20pm

Bravo, Benedetto! Next I hope he considers canonization of Oriana Fallaci.

80 PostWatch  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:32:37pm

This is not meant to offend any Catholics, but I believe the Catholic Church has lot to answer for as to their behavior in WWII. Independent Catholic priests did their best against the Nazi's, but overall I feel the Vatican were Nazi enablers, rather than Nazi fighters.

I don't want to go off-topic (too much more than I already have) so just regarding the clarity of my own intentions, I will say this and move on: When I said in my initial post here that the Catholic Church has a pretty sorry history regarding anti-semitism--and indeed the West does in general, the West and Christianity at one time having been synonymous--I was not thinking of World War 2. The Church has gotten a bad rap there, and I will merely stipulate that's how I look at it, and that this is fairly well-documented for those who are truly interested in it. I won't comment further on that subject in this thread.

81 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:32:41pm

I looked at the Cairn's radar loop at TC Larry, but on a home 56k phone modem, especially when Texas basketball was on, (and North Texas was flooding) and I have a runny nose, sinus discomfort and a sore throat, didn't really track TC Larry all that closely.

I'd have followed it more with fast internet at work, especially during lunch hour and coffee break.

82 jrdroll  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:33:00pm

#70 loflyer

This is not meant to offend any Catholics, but I believe the Catholic Church has lot to answer for as to their behavior in WWII. Independent Catholic priests did their best against the Nazi's, but overall I feel the Vatican were Nazi enablers, rather than Nazi fighters.

You might test your beliefs by reading:

The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
Rabbi David G. Dalin
Author


[Link: www.heritage.org...]

83 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:33:12pm

#78 Earth2moonbat

Sigh. I have soooo many books to read. Yes, I'll add this one. Thanks.

84 LoFlyer  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:33:46pm

StuckinCalifornia, No chance for a race tomorrow at Hampton, rain is predicted throughout the day. Tuesday looks very good though. My neighbor was doing volunteer work at the race and is back at home tonight. What do you think about NASCAR's new car of the future? Seems more like IROC than NASCAR to me...

85 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:33:47pm

#68 Beagle

Slay them all, God will know his own.

Arnold Amaury, Papal "negotiator" in 1209, when ask how to identify Catholics among the Cathars and Jews of Béziers.

86 Beagle  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:36:06pm

#85 Spiny Norman

I'm going to have to prezume Monzeu Armory innozentz until proven guiltee, eh, beyond ze reasonable doubt, after a trial by a jury of eez peerz, with access to a laptop computer.

Are you getting zees?

87 PostWatch  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:37:02pm

Bravo, Benedetto! Next I hope he considers canonization of Oriana Fallaci.

No canonization--but as noted by LGF, he met with her!

88 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:37:03pm

#81 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

I looked at the Cairn's radar loop at TC Larry, but on a home 56k phone modem, especially when Texas basketball was on, (and North Texas was flooding) and I have a runny nose, sinus discomfort and a sore throat, didn't really track TC Larry all that closely.

But wait! There looks like another one following close behind.

89 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:38:45pm

What I like about what Pope Benedict has done here is this: He has said "We will talk about this. We will talk honestly about muslim history. We will not be afraid to question accepted beliefs. We will take a look at what islam has done, what Christianity has done, and lay it out there for open discussion."

I hope those Swiss Guards are well-practiced.

90 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:38:47pm

66 Insane Kufr-


Yes, missing Mass is considered bad. If one truly believes, an hour to 75 minutes per week isn't much to ask.


You could be Baptist, no drinking, no dancing, and Baptist's I know do 2 Sunday services plus a mid-week service.


Besides, today at Mass we got the Ten Commandments in our First Reading.

91 Doss  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:39:38pm

From the link in my last post:

Jacques Ellul has characterized the origins and effects of this transformation: [80]

the Crusade is an imitation of the jihad. Thus the Crusade includes a guarantee of salvation. The one who dies in holy war (i.e., jihad) goes straight to Paradise, and the same applies to the one who takes part in a Crusade. This is no coincidence; it is an exact equivalent. The Crusades, which were once admired as an expression of absolute faith, and which are now the subject of accusations against the Church and Christianity, are of Muslim, not Christian origin…The nonviolence of Jesus Christ changes into a war in conflict with that waged by the foe. Like that war, this is now a holy war.


Something for Mohammedan apologists to chew on.

92 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:40:55pm

Spiny- It is prime time over there.


My favorites are the ones that form in the Gulf of Carpentaria, head West, and then finally hook poleward into W.A., because that is the only Australian state I have been drunk in, and I feel a connection.

93 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:41:37pm

#86 Beagle

I'm going to have to prezume Monzeu Armory innozentz until proven guiltee, eh, beyond ze reasonable doubt, after a trial by a jury of eez peerz, with access to a laptop computer.

Are you getting zees?

Laptop? Eh? Isn't that the Jihadi's most precious item, after the (un)holy Koran?

94 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:42:44pm

Kendall County thunderstorm has weakened below severe limits, and the tornado warning is cancelled.

95 Bob's Kid  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:43:30pm

Every now and then we get these glimmers of light that lead me to believe there might be some hope. Is it just me or do they seem to be coming more often in recent months?

96 Photios  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:44:56pm

There are two articles by a medieval scholar Thomas F. Madden on the Crusades that I think you may enjoy reading.

The Real History of the Crusades
and
Crusade Propaganda
The abuse of Christianity’s holy wars.

This is really good stuff and a pleasure to read.

+Photi

97 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:46:06pm

#92 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

Spiny- It is prime time over there.

My favorites are the ones that form in the Gulf of Carpentaria, head West, and then finally hook poleward into W.A., because that is the only Australian state I have been drunk in, and I feel a connection.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought that in the Southern Hemisphere, tropical cyclones generally travelled west-to-east. Larry (and Daryl[?]) are moving the same direction as Atlantic hurricanes.

98 AngryAmerican  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:48:44pm

Pope Benedict XVI - the anti-Dhimmi, a Dhimmiexorcist

99 BingoBunny  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:48:48pm

Finally a pope with some balls.. hope he don't take that wrong.

100 LoFlyer  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:50:04pm

Hello guys, I will pick up the book, The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis at my library, assuming that a liberal library will carry such a book. However, without having read this book, I have read numerous accounts of WW II (like several thousand) and the Catholic Church was never a participant in any major issues of WW II. Believe me, I am a Christian and am distressed that the Vatican did so little in WW II.

101 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:51:34pm

No, in both hemispheres, storms move from West to East when near the Equator, until they eventually recurve poleward. Once poleward of the mean ridge position, they start moving from West to East, although by then increasing wind shear and cooler waters mean they are usually weakening and transitioning to non-tropical systems.

102 Beagle  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:51:45pm

Laptops for Jihad
Paper, pen. Get new paper and pen when needed.

103 ouray  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:53:30pm

Maybe the pope would like some of these crusaders:-)

[Link: www.globalsecurity.org...]

104 Shredstar  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 5:58:51pm

Why are so many conservatives silent on the issue of gambling?

105 lobo91  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:00:16pm

#103 ouray:

I can't speak for the Pope, but I do know a few Field Artillery types who would like to have them.

Too bad they were cancelled.

106 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:00:27pm

#101 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

No, in both hemispheres, storms move from West to East when near the Equator, until they eventually recurve poleward.

AH! They just rotate in opposite directions, then.

107 SnowDawg  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:07:30pm

Certainly many bad things were done during the crusades. The sack of Constantinople has been mentioned as an example. What makes me laugh is that the moral equivalence masters (ie LLL), can’t see that the crusades were a response to 100s of years of unopposed Jihad. The crusades are long since over (800 years), but the Jihad continues to this day. One should not be able to condemn the crusades without condemning the Jihad that caused them. I have always understood the crusades to be a response to the Jihad that started 400 years before the first crusade.

108 acwgusa  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:09:35pm

#54 Iron Fist

Any problems with the other Crusaders if I wield my .45 instead of my sword? My sword is kinda rusty.

109 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:09:45pm
110 Iron Fist  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:13:09pm

#108 acwgusa,

Oh, a .45 will work, but a sword is more traditional. OTOH, since the Mohammedans are using 'Splodeydopes, perhaps discretion is the better part of valor.

Lock and Load!

:-)

111 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:14:47pm
112 insane_kufr  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:17:08pm

#90 Ed

I felt really ignorant when I heard that - I, of Catholic schooling, somehow neglected to retain that little nugget. Come to think of it, there is a lot of scriptural studies that I haven't retained.

Think it may have been the Ganja.

113 Beagle  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:18:34pm

#109 Rayra

Agnostic Division


Unit Motto: "We never dig in"

114 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:20:36pm
115 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:21:02pm

#109 rayra

Is there an Agnostic Division I can sign up with?



You can pillage on Sundays while the rest of us are at church. :)

116 insane_kufr  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:21:53pm

My weapon of choice - High Standard 12 gauge riot pump model K-120 loaded with 3" magnum 00 buckshot. And my Colt 1911 .45 auto refitted by Wilson Combat loaded with JHP.

Jihadi's I am prepped!

117 Abu Maven  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:24:39pm

This Pope is awesome.

Go! Go! Go!

118 michael moore's coffin  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:24:40pm

this story really blows me away...and considering I'm currently in RCIA..about to join The Church..makes it that more interesting.

119 Catttt  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:24:43pm

Yay! I love my Pope.

HUAH POPE BENEDICT!

120 mama winger  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:24:55pm

I even bought a three-foot tall iron cross today. Weird, huh? I planned to put it on my son's bedroom wall, but he probably won't mind if I use it for the battle cry.

121 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:28:25pm
122 Catttt  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:29:43pm

118 michael moore's coffin

Well, cool! :)

123 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:32:34pm
124 witness  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:32:45pm

As soon as I read this I thought of Prophecy of St Malachy. Has anyone else thought about that?

125 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:34:04pm
126 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:34:42pm
127 Cartman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:35:52pm

#121 rayra

Folks that jingoistically attack J-C Religion, relentlessly seek to purge it from the public square are just as much my Enemy as virulent Islam.

And radical Islam is so desperately placing their eggs in the baskets of anti-religion zealots. They understand the cold, hard fact that to convert one who believes in nothing is the path of least resistance.

128 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:36:17pm
129 Connecticut Yankee  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:38:41pm

#13 mama winger

You aren't the only Lutheran who likes Benedict XVI. Count me in, also my doctoral advisor, who has known the Pope for many years (since he was a professor of theology, before he became a cardinal).

130 inmypajamas  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:38:49pm

#66 insane_kufr, #90 Ed Mahmoud....

Yes, we are required to attend Mass on Sundays but I learned last year that receiving the Eucharist is only required once a year (CCC 1389). Kind of hard to imagine going to the trouble of going to Mass and not taking communion, though. Now you'll know the answer when they have Catholic Trivial Pursuit at your next church function!

One of the greatest gifts Catholics and others of faith have in the West is our freedom to attend worship freely and without fear. I have been reading a lot lately about religous restrictions and persecutions in Cuba and the ME and it has opened my eyes a little as to how blessed we truly are. We even have the freedom not to go, without worrying about someone from our neighborhood Vice and Virtue group writing our name down.

I am glad to hear that Benedict has spoken out clearly about the Crusades. That era was replete with the taking and re-taking of cities, kingdoms, countries and no one behaved especially "nobly" by our current standards. The Muslims ended up victorious at the end of it all anyway so it's hard to understand what they're whining about at this far remove.

The storms have hit Austin, Ed - I hear the thunder and the rain pelting the windows as I type this. The weather channel has any tornado activity to the south, though, as far as I can tell. Here's hoping both my kids sleep through it cause tomorrow's a school day.

131 michael moore's coffin  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:38:51pm

#126 ploome

Right of Christian Initiation of Adults. It's the official way to convert to Catholicism and join The Church.

132 spam spam spam spam  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:39:16pm

I'm an atheist, but RIGHT ON Pope Benedict XVI! More people need to realize the Crusades were a defense against an expansionist Islam. Same as it ever was.

133 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:42:37pm
134 Pierre_Legrand[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:43:41pm
135 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:44:51pm
136 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:47:47pm
137 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:49:11pm
138 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:51:35pm
139 spirochete  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:51:59pm

I seem to remember a few years back GWB called it a crusade and the state department went apeshit explaining what he REALLY meant to say.

Reminded me of the time Reagan suggested the Berlin Wall should come down and there was collective eyeball rolling from the left.

140 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:53:06pm
141 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:55:49pm
142 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:56:25pm
143 Dirk Diggler  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 6:58:13pm
Well, as Ayn Rand has argued, faith and force go hand in hand - they are ultimately inseparable. Until religion is completely separated from politics, and ultimately banished from the realm of human thinking, all forms of the initiation of force, up to and including war, will be with us.

Your theory (and Rand's as well) is utter bullshit.

The Communists weren't particularly religious. In fact they relentless sought to extirpate religion from their societies.

At last count killed over a hundred million people.

144 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:02:45pm
145 crystaloptical  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:16:56pm

66 insane_kufr

I recently discovered in Bible study that it is a mortal sin, for a Catholic, to miss weekly mass and Holy days of obligation. I need to go to confession!
********************
My Grandfather was the most Christian man I have ever known. He never set foot in a church that I know of. If I spent all my days in a church I would not measure up to him.

Fortunately we don't get to Heaven on our own merits.

146 Kohenan The Barbarian  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:18:30pm

Let's all cheer for the Pope who puts yet another spin on history to reinforce maintaining power and influence on all things pastoral--the Muslims were encroaching on the domain and political power of Christendom so the backlash-- two distinct periods of retribution and recovery of Christian dominance thru murderous butchery of all who did not embrace the Lord (Jesus)-- this including the mass murdering of Jews with the full support the Church and the Pope--these Holy Knights cut a wide swath of genocide thru Europe and into the Middle East expunging in some instances total populations of non- Christians --why we(Christians) should be darned proud of them Crusades !

147 crystaloptical  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:26:43pm

#85 Spiny Norman

Slay them all, God will know his own.
**********************

Arnold Amaury ------ Patron Saint of Airline Security personnel.

148 inmypajamas  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:46:25pm

Surprised it took this long for the Catholic bashers to show up.

#145 crystaloptical - Hmmm, Catholics aren't good Christians because we think weekly worship is kind of important? Or are you just pontificating from the smug safety of Planet I'm Saved, You're Not?

#146 Kookhead - Whatever.

149 rayra[deleted]  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:49:45pm
150 pelayo  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:51:22pm

Kohenan,

As has been discussed no Pope ever called for or condoned Crusades against Jews. Attacks on Jews were done by rogue crusaders without official sanction. Blaming the Popes for that is like blaming the US government for the LA riots.

The aims of the Crusaders were 1) to restore the Holy Land to Christian rule after it had been conquered by jihad 2)to protect Eastern Christians and pilgrims who were being harrased or attacked by jihadists.

151 Cartman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:54:32pm

#143 Dirk

The Communists weren't particularly religious. In fact they relentless sought to extirpate religion from their societies.

An excellent point. Man's inhumanity to fellow man cannot be soley blamed on religious dogma. It's a faulty premise.

152 Cartman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:56:36pm

#146

Your surnicname fits you well - Barbarian.

153 pelayo  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 7:57:53pm

#151 Cartman

The reason for man's inhumanity to man is the flaw in human nature-a consequence of what for Christians is understood as original sin.

Europe's apostasy from Christianity did not lead to less inhumanity as Communism and Nazism evidence. Rather Christianity restrained inhumanity and cruelty and these restraints weakened as the Christian religion lost influence.

154 Cartman  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 8:06:16pm

#153 pelayo

Agreed. My consternation stems from my observation that there seems to be no "checks or balances" upon inhumanity, religious or otherwise. It would seem that another "seal" has been opened, and some kind of day of reckoning may be at hand. I'm not particularly overly zealous when it comes to my religious convictions, but I'm reasonably satisfied that I know big trouble when I see it.

155 Pelayo  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 8:14:42pm

Cartman,

I would say the way in which a pre-Christian civilization like pagan Rome took shame free pleasure and entertainment in acts of extraordinary cruelty (e.g. watching people tortured and killed the gladiator games) became something foreign to the West once it was educated in the school of Christian moral values.

Obviously cruelty and inhumanity did not end with the proclamation of the Gospel, but in general terms cruel impulses were to some degree restrained by the civilizing effect of Christianity, and were accompanied by far greater guilt and shame then among the pagan cultures of antiquity.

156 Beagle  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 8:39:46pm

#137 rayra

despite all the awesome offensive capabilities


Maybe the Spruce Goose could carry the Crusader?

Seems sad to not have a couple batallions. Big gun go boom.

157 SnowDawg  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 8:54:29pm

. #148 inmypajamas
I too was surprised it took this long for the Catholic bashers to show up. Kookhead believes anything the socialist revisionist historians say. This is utter nonsense that the Church helped the Nazis. My father a, Catholic, was imprisoned, by the Nazis in a work camp and his mother and father were killed by the Nazis. He told me he saw the Nazi’s come into his town and kill all of what he called the “intelligentsia”, and that included the priests and a bishop. It is a historical fact one of the targets of the Nazis was the Catholic Church hierarchy including bishops archbishops and influential priests. What kind of Church supports the imprisonment, forced labor, and killing of its parishioners, and the destruction of its hierarchy? This nonsense about the churches support of the Nazis has been proven wrong many times there was even a book written by a Rabbi (I cannot remember his name).
#149 Raya
I am a Canadian I can tell you that everything that kookhead wrote is totally wrong:

#143 Kohenan The Barbarian 7/25/2005 11:26AM PDT
Despite all the vitriolic drivel that is regurgitated each time the word Canada is found on a thread--the majority of the 600,000 Muslims in Canukistan have been well integrated into society and support democratic freedoms--the urgent need to eradicate the same root problem which is universal to all western societies, the unrestricted incitement and radical teachings of the Imams and their worldwide funding by the Saudis---the majority of Canucks approve of the removal of the Iraq Bathists by the coalition and have supported continued our Armed Forces involvment in Afghanistan,Nato and the Iraq no fly zone and the securing of Persian Gulf --and a majority agree with our existing draconian laws relating to national security and terrorism---its just accomplished with less pot banging here eh!

That about the Khadr family:
[Link: www.cbc.ca...]
These guys are ready to join Canada
[Link: jihadwatch.org...]
[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]
This guy wants to be a Canadian but still wanst to kill Jews. Hey its part of his culture:
[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]
Canadians are ready to stop supporting on because mounting casualties? I thin less that 10 soldiers are dead (and most of them died in accidents).
[Link: cnews.canoe.ca...]

Why the hell does a MaCKay have to urge Canadians to support the effort?

158 Crusader Rabbit  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 9:03:32pm

Hooray for Pope Benedict! It is all to the good when the west defends itself, rhetorically and otherwise.

159 Beagle  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 9:09:40pm

#150 pelayo

Blaming the Popes for that is like blaming the US government for the LA riots.


Medieval anti-Semitism was hardcore and taught by the church. Urban II could have forseen what he was unleashing. Plenary indulgences for a service term of weeks, sounds like a license to steal, pillage, and kill Jews - or the early First Crusade.

After travelling through Burgundy and the south of France, Urban II convoked a council at Clermont-Ferrand, in Auvergne. It was attended by fourteen archbishops, 250 bishops, and 400 abbots; moreover a great number of knights and men of all conditions came and encamped on the plain of Chantoin, to the east of Clermont, 18-28 November, 1095. On 27 November, the pope himself addressed the assembled multitudes, exhorting them to go forth and rescue the Holy Sepulchre. Amid wonderful enthusiasm and cries of "God wills it!" all rushed towards the pontiff to pledge themselves by vow to depart for the Holy Land and receive the cross of red material to be worn on the shoulder. At the same time the pope sent letters to all Christian nations, and the movement made rapid headway throughout Europe. Preachers of the crusade appeared everywhere, and on all sides sprang up disorganized, undisciplined, penniless hordes, almost destitute of equipment, who, surging eastward through the valley of the Danube, plundered as they went along and murdered the Jews in the German cities. One of these bands, headed by Folkmar, a German cleric, was slaughtered by the Hungarians. Peter the Hermit, however, and the German knight, Walter the Pennyless (Gautier Sans Avoir), finally reached Constantinople with their disorganized troops. To save the city from plunder Alexius Comnenus ordered them to be conveyed across the Bosporus (August, 1096); in Asia Minor they turned to pillage and were nearly all slain by the Turks. Meanwhile the regular crusade was being organized in the West and, according to a well-conceived plan, the four principal armies were to meet at Constantinople.

I'd call that worse than yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. They massacred Jews in the Rhineland but were slaughtered by Turks. Obviously there was a need for Plan B, which should have been Plan A, with no other plans.

New Advent

160 BPP  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 9:56:32pm

I don't see what's wrong with calling the Crusades aggression. It was aggression in response to Muslim aggression, in the form of the "expansion" of Islam in the 7th century, something that must have been every bit as brutal as the Crusades.

I'd be wary about historical revisionism of the sort being tried out now by Benedict. It may make sense to see the Crusades in more complex terms than just saying it was naked aggression that requires a formal apology to Islam. But I wouldn't want to have that rethinking extend to the church's understanding of its history of persecution of the Jews. Pope John Paul II, perhaps because he came from a part of the world that was the undisputed epicenter of anti-Semitism, did more than any other pope to achieve reconciliation with Jews. I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who are unhappy with John Paul II's prostrations in front of Muslims are also unhappy with his showing respect to Judaism.

I'm just saying these things have a way of snowballing.

161 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 11:08:01pm

"Anyone else wishing the Pope had the stones to actually call for one? I'm sick of having the title but none of the duties or perks."

/Lizardoid minion

162 SnowDawg  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 11:13:46pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who are unhappy with John Paul II's prostrations in front of Muslims are also unhappy with his showing respect to Judaism.

I'm just saying these things have a way of snowballing.

Don't be insane. I supported the Pope John Paul II along with everyone here in starting reconciliation with Jews. I think you are making a link with the Crusades and anti-Semitism, and then trying to say that people are condoning anti-Semitism that happened as a part of the crusades. We are only saying that the Crusades were a counter attack against the Jihad. Anti-Semitism was committed by both crusaders and the Jihad.

Poland was not the epicenter of anti-Semitism that is just an idiotic statement.

163 Proximate  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 11:36:12pm

#159 Beagle: Clearly Pope Urban should have used his cellphone to keep in constant contact and control of the crusade. It was criminal that he didn't do so.

/sarcasm off

Does anyone here NOT understand that the feudal system was more decentralized than just about any other form of government? Feudal armies were notoriously hard to control... but the West HAD to defend itself.

#160 BPP: So protecting ourselves from jihadists will lead to anti-semitism? That's nonsense on stilts!

Want to see truly violent anti-semitism? Visit some Islamic nations. Israel's only ally is a largely Christian nation... the same nation which liberated the deathcamps if memory serves.

164 deepdiver  Sun, Mar 19, 2006 11:42:28pm

mwahahhaaa!
This Pope makes me happier every day - the moonbats are going to go ballistic over this. I take it to mean that there will be few "apologies" towards the mohammedans for wars fought centuries earlier in reply to other wars.

Hope Benedict has a long life - the world needs someone like him.

Things like this give me hope in these shitty times...

165 CheyennePress  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 12:16:52am

To anyone curious, the Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim destroyed some 10,000+ Christian churches in less than a decade, including the Holy Sepulchre. He then proceeded to hand the rubble over to the Orthodox Church after the Holy Sepulchre had belonged to the Western Latin Church.

Neeedless to say that this was not received favorably. Well, that and 1) the closure of all pilgrimage routes and raids thereabouts on pilgrims and 2) the continued invasion of Christian lands.

When you go back and read the Bible, you'll find that Christians were first called Christians in Antioch. Antioch is located in modern day Syria. How did Syria become a Muslim nation? Here's a hint: it wasn't because Islam sent out missionaries to peacefully convince the people to change their minds.

166 Beagle  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 12:17:40am

#163 Proximate

I'm not easy on medieval armies because I judge all of them by modern standards. I wouldn't call the early First Crusade extrodinarily violent compared to other spontaneous wars of extermination before and after. Beziers was worse than the Rhineland massacres.

Islamic conquests in various places, especially India, were bloodier.

Ultimately, this gets nowhere so I try to get the facts right and have fun with it.

There was a professional crusade of mounted knights and infantry, and whatever you call what happened when Pope Urban II told, or somehow conveyed to everyone in Christendom, it was fine to run to the Dar-al-Islam and start fighting.

There were over a half dozen major crusades with subplots. 1099 usually comes up before now. The professional First Crusade kills civilians in droves.

167 Ellen  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 1:17:28am

Joseph Ratzinger took the name Benedict because St. Benedict is the patron of Europe and Europe must return to its Christian roots, or live as dhimmi states in the ummah.

168 LadyK  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 1:59:44am

I (heart) my German Shepard!

Knew he was a good'un when the liberal Catholic website I used to write for published an article about how one of the writers was praying "anybody but Ratzinger."

169 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 2:07:13am
170 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 2:28:29am
171 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 2:33:50am
172 quickjustice  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 2:53:07am

A friend of mine just visited Temple Church in London, where the Knights Templar are buried. The church was constructed in 1185, and consecrated by the Patriarch of Jerusalem. The Knights Templar were monk/soldiers and crusaders who protected pilgrims on the long journey to Jerusalem.

Do we need a revival of the order?

173 cimom  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 3:00:04am

I can picture the Crusade now. The Pope can give absolution of sins to all military troops (a good idea anyways). Then there would be the option of having a large white cross on uniforms, tanks, guns, etc. Well, maybe the latter wouldn't be good camouflage, but I can just imagine moonbats spitting with rage. What a great photo-op that would be too.

174 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 3:04:11am
175 dustyroadguy  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:16:25am

#174 ploome hineni 3/20/2006 05:04AM PST

that is where the notion arises that America was really settled by one of the 'Lost Tribes of Israel' and is a foundational tenant of many Aryan White Supremacist groups in the USA...
a disgusting 'christian' aberration
-- DRG --...†
;>P

176 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:29:53am

#172: The order is reviving. The official order has been restored by the Church:

OMT

#170 Ploome: Hitler specifically rejected the Catholic Church, as well as Christianity in general. He described himself as "a complete pagan".

See "Was Hitler Catholic?"

All Nazis were excommunicated in 1930! You are either ignorant or dishonest. Either case qualifies you as a troll.

Revisionism disturbs me too! Especially from dishonest religious bigots.

177 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:29:54am

#175 dustyroadguy
How is christian identity, ayran nation et. el theologogy different from ANY other 'christian' groups doctrine of replacement theology?

replacement theology= WE are now Israel, not the so called Jews.

178 templar  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:30:26am

As far as crusades go, this one by President Bush really sucks. I mean, he's planning on leaving muslims in power in muslim countries, he continually spouts stuff like "islam is a religion of peace", and has a copy of the koran added to the White House library. Good gried Mr. President, can't you get anything right? I want to see a real crusade with hordes of Christians armed to the teeth with the latest weapons descend like a ravening plague of locusts on the islamic world, replete with mosque demolitions, forced conversions, setting up Crusader Kingdoms, etc. This crusade you've got going here is a bit limp by comparision.

/insert sarc tag here

179 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:36:51am

#176 Proximate

Please explain the 1933 concordat between hitler and pope.

180 templar  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:38:45am

#177 BenZacharia

As a Southern Baptist I can tell you that my church doesn't subscribe to replacement theology. As far as my own insufficient theological training goes, we believe that the promises that God made to Israel are specifically for the Jewish people. However, we also believe that God was gracious enough to send his Son to die for the sins of all mankind. I know that we will disagree on this, and thats fine with me. As far as the Christian Identity movement is concerned, they are simply a bunch of thugs seeking political/theological cover for their racism and bigotry, and we have absolutely nothing to do with them. Shalom my friend.

181 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:42:53am

#180 templar

The best friends Jews have in this world are evangelical and fundamentalist Christians, several Rabbis speak highly of the likes of John Haggee and others and have just formed a new organization with them.

182 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:49:42am

#177 BenZecharia: Have I got you right? If one tiny, evil group calls itself Christian, all Christians and their theology must be evil too?

"the apostle Paul maintains that the Jews remain very dear to God, for the sake of the patriarchs, since God does not take back the gifts he bestowed or the choice he made.2 Together with the prophets and that same apostle, the church awaits the day, known to God alone, when all peoples will call on God with one voice and serve him shoulder to shoulder (Soph 3:9; see Is 66:23; Ps 65:4; Rom 11:11-32)"

Nostra Aetate, 2nd Vatican Council

183 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:52:42am

Proximate
you read it wrong, ALL with replacement theologies are enemies.

184 templar  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:53:05am

Well, I guess I would fit into that category then. I have nothing but respect for the Jewish people (did a minor in college on European history with an emphasis on Jewish studies). They have contributed to building society more than the small size of their population would suggest, and for that the West should be grateful. Kinda of ironic don't you think that some of the most ardent supporters of Israel in the US are the sons and daughters of the old Confederacy? God does indeed work in mysterious ways.

185 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:03:15am

#184 templar

As a true Christian (ie one who excepts the Bible as the sole inspired word of G-d, and derives doctrine from Bible only) you should love this verse.

Yochanan Ben Yoseph (John son of Joseph) 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

186 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:14:08am

#179 BenZecharia

Please explain the 1933 concordat between hitler and pope

It was not an alliance but an instrument of defense. A way to hopefully bind the Nazis to a legal agreement. Here's an in-depth analysis of the concordat by Rabbi David G. Dalin:

The Myth of Hitler’s Pope

Here are some other links on the subject:

German bishop who denounced Hitler beatified

How do you explain "Mit brennender Sorge"?

Or the quotes from Jewish leaders at that time from this article?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_XII

187 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:19:14am

#183 BenZecharia: Which groups of Christians do you regard as enemies?

Which churches are you accusing of having "replacement theology"?

188 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:20:46am

#185 BenZacharia

& KJV to boot!

As a true Christian (ie one who excepts the Bible as the sole inspired word of G-d, and derives doctrine from Bible only) I do love this verse.

One of history's great tragedies is the complete misunderstanding by the later church of what Paul and John both were trying to teach us.

189 Timbre  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:30:32am

The Pope, and all of the bishops, should reach out to everyone and every religious institution which allows freedom of thought and religious practice, except to those people and organizations which practice supremacy, murder, child abuse, women abuse, and human sacrifice. Those people should be in prison.

190 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:37:37am

#187 Proximate

Any group that abrogates to itself the covenant promises of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) in fact transferring the promises to the Church and allegorizes the Church as the new Israel of G-d have declared themselves my enemy.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Messiah.

191 robert  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:44:41am

This is all fine and good up til the 4th crusade which was an abomination and was rightfully excommunicated. It essentially destroyed the Eastern Roman Empire and set the state for the Coming of the Ottoman Turks. That crusade cannot be condoned or whitewashed by anyone.

192 perlster  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:54:46am

#188

I always get a laugh at these "only the Bible" lines. How about only the Koran? How about only the Book of Mormon? What bible? Who determines what belongs in it?

(Send all replies to /dev/null)

193 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:54:51am

#191 robert

1st crusade Godfrey de Bouillon burns 900 Jews alive in Jerusalem synagogue while marching around singing "Christ we adore thee".

They (crudsaders) had all debts to Jews cancelled and indulgences were granted for all sins and crimes.

http://www.aish.com/seminars/tunneltour/nf/nf09.ht m

194 alegrias  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:02:10am

Has the Vatican (or ANY Western Church group) denounced Kabul's inquisition and death sentence of that brave Afghan? Have CAIR or any other moslem apologists said peep about this travesty?

I'm waiting for massive global protests and condemnation of this crime against humanity and violation of civil rights by our leftist brothers and sisters.

195 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:22:23am

#192 perlster

What about?
When talking Judaism (Karaite et el) and Christianity the Bible is the final authority.

Which Bible?

Jews=The Tenach
Christians = Jewish Tenach + New Testament.

196 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:34:32am

For all crudsaze defenders.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Histor y/crusadetime.html

Kill a Jew, go to heaven.

197 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:02:47am

#190 BenZacharia: Good luck finding allies!

198 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:13:44am

#197 Proximate

The Jews have the only ally they need G-D, however G-D commands others to be a blessing to the Jews or ELSE.

199 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:25:08am
200 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:27:33am
201 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:34:58am

#199 PL

I tried, and all I got were a bunch of self serving sites with no proofs, links or sources.

202 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:35:05am
203 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:35:53am
204 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:45:58am

#203 PL

Did you check out the crudsaders thread?

This is happening on LGF! Kill the Jews!

205 Grandma  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:55:55am

Religions are man-made creations. There’s nothing in the Jewish or Christian scriptures that says, “On the eighth day, God created religion”. Therefore that is why some of those religions screw up so much; they’re man-made institutions. Now, allah and mohammed, on the other hand created the religion of islam and thrust it upon everyone possible. That is why islam screws up so much.

Religion is like the car I bought nine years ago. There were some features I liked, and still do, and some that were just engineering-design-questionable. The car came with a 3-yr./36 month warranty. Today I can go buy a new car and get a 10-yr./100,000 mile warranty. Either way, it just proves that all cars have a life span because cars are not expected to last forever. It is called built-in-obsolescence. Religions would do better with an admission to a built-in-obsolescence clause. The car manufacturers at least attempt to upgrade and improve their product over time. Religions could learn something from them.

Some religions would take us back to the basics; imagine Interstate 80 clogged with Model T type fundamental innovations. Some religions would have us make higher monthly payments because their product, as advertised, is better and has extra features. Many religions offer a lifetime warranty for the faithful, except the cost could be a short life. Some religions give a rebate for purchasing their product with a promise to enter the grand sweepstakes of a chance at eternal life. Some religions have severe penalties for not strictly following the owner’s manual. Some religions limit the market choice to only one make and model, thus effectively shutting down the competition.

Maybe religions should do as the car manufacturers do, and offer a product that they are willing to fix and a commitment to making it better with improvements to the design for future models. Maybe they should listen to the consumer needs, be fair in determining the qualifications under the service contract to include all purchasers, and at least make the terms of the limited warranty fully known. Maybe some should acknowledge that a free market actually contributes to the enhancement of their product. Maybe some should take their product off the market entirely (think Corvair) because they are potentially dangerous.

When religions begin doing some of that, maybe I’ll go get me one. In the meantime, at least I know what to expect from the car I’ve got, what to look for in the next purchase, and have no naïve illusions about promises that the dealer makes but can’t be backed up by written facts. And as the end-user of my car, I don’t use it to go kill others, taunt or hate others because they don’t have one like mine, and realize that my choice can still get me screwed over.

Thanks for listening to Grandma at what may be the end of this thread (I like being last), and have a nice day.

206 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 8:00:28am

#205 Grandma

last word! Spppplllt! (raspberry)

207 Grandma  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 8:04:17am

#206, BenZacharia,

You win. But I got your attention with that didn't I.

208 SnowDawg  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 8:06:52am

#170 ploome hineni
What do you think the pictures prove. Lots of people were pictured with Hitler and came to regret it. You cannot refute any of the FIRST HAND accounts I gave. You only have pictures, assumptions and questionable web sites.

209 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 8:13:10am

#208 SnowDawg

Check out the jewishvertuallibrary et el

Don't read about the 1933 concordat read the text of the concordat, it damns itself.

210 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 8:47:02am

CLEAR! PHUTT CLEAR! PHUTT

Time of (thread) death ...

211 bouzouki  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 8:48:44am

Proximate:

Don't waste your time arguing with fanatics.

212 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 8:51:30am

Beagle #169, BenZacaharia #190

What that ignores was the efforts of Catholic Bishops to save Jews from Rogue Crusaders during the First Crusade, and the largely successful efforts of St. Bernard of Claivaux(the Papal representative for preaching the Crusade) to prevent violence against Jews during the second Crusade. For a good primer on the Crusades see this:

[Link: www.crisismagazine.com...]

In general terms the Church had a clear policy regarding mob violence against Jews- it forbade it- hence the tradition of Papal protection of Europe's Jewish communities for example against ritual murder charges.

[Link: www.papalencyclicals.net...]

Only a fool would deny that there was anti-Semitism in medieval Christendom. But it is simply wrong to suggest that the Crusades were called by the Popes for the purpose of attacking Jews or that these attacks enjoyed official sanction.

213 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 9:22:34am

#201 BenZecharia

I tried, and all I got were a bunch of self serving sites with no proofs, links or sources.

Read the section "The Catholic Reaction" from here:

Hitler's Rise to Power

It goes into detail about the German bishops conference of 1930, where they joined the Archbishop of Mainz in excommunicating the Nazis. They also issued an explicit condemnation.

The document is heavily footnoted from historical sources. Some of these can be found on-line, most can't be.

3,000 priests were killed in the Holocaust, many for sheltering jews. I expect you'll slander their memory in your next post.

I will never regard Judaism as an enemy no matter how many Jewish trolls declare themselves my enemies. I have always argued for aid for Israel and will continue to do so.

So perhaps I and fellow Christians are not YOUR allies. But we remain Israel's ally.

214 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:09:56am
215 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:11:34am

#211 bouzouki

Proximate:

Don't waste your time arguing with fanatics.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll take it.

216 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:20:35am

#213 Proximate

I have not declared you an enemy. I said my enemies declare themselves i.e. covenant promises.

I expect you'll slander their memory in your next post

The righteous acts of all are noted by G-D.

Try searching my quotes before yelling 'troll'.

google 'ratline catholic' they were not excommunicated

Christian? How? What confession? (scripture only)

217 blackelkspeaks  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:23:57am

RE: Post 34

"It's a nice touch that this statement comes at the same time as Oriana Fallaci's latest book is published in the US. She needs all the encouragement she can get..."

Very soon after he was elevated, the Pope had a special audience with Orianna. He was very familiar with her work. He does, indeed, realize the nature of the evil we all face.

218 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:24:08am
219 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:27:55am
220 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:30:36am
221 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:34:52am
222 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 10:36:07am

#220 PH

Inqusition was a misunderstanding.

223 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 11:16:19am

Argh. I swore I'd say no more but:

I'm not disputing what Rabbi Dalin says, I have great respect for him.

It is true that Pope Pius did not excommunicate the Nazis. The German archbishops did. The Nazis, including Hitler, were in fact, excommunicates.

#222 BenZecharia

Inqusition was a misunderstanding.


Which inquisition? The Spanish inquisition run solely by King Ferdinand? The one he strong-armed Pope Sixtus to approve?

One of the enduring myths of the Inquisition is that it targeted practising Jews. However, several Jewish historians have pointed out that this was not the case:

"It appears to be a fact as well as a theory that Jews who never ceased professing Judaism were, on the whole, left undisturbed. In the fourteen years of the activity of the Spanish Inquisition, from its establishment in 1478 to the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, we hear of only one persecution directed against a Jewish community, where the Jewry of Huesca was accused in 1489 of having admitted conversos (pseudo-converts from Judaism to Christianity) to the Jewish fold. It was precisely the inability of the inquisitorial courts to check Jewish influence on the conversos that served as a decisive argument for the Catholic monarchs in banishing Jews from Spain..." (Baron, Dr. Salo Wittmayer, A Social and Religious History of the Jews, New York, 1937, Volume 2, p.58).


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Spanish inquisition killed about 2,250 between 1540 & 1700 according to the extensive records the Spanish kept. And of course 200,000 jews were banished. It was a monstrous and evil campaign. I wouldn't dream of defending it. There have been wicked and cowardly popes before, no doubt about it.

But all of this seems more than a little off-topic...

224 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 11:28:35am

#223 Proximate

Can you cite official Church sites where they list the apostate popes?

225 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 11:53:04am

One can be wicked, stupid or cowardly without necessarily being apostate... which means to abandon the faith.

I can't think of any popes that have publicly disavowed the Catholic faith, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some agnostic or atheist Popes during the Rennaissance.

Fortunately the worst popes never made "ex cathedra" pronouncements (which are pretty darn rare anyway). The worst popes have been too worldly to concern themselves much with matters of faith.

226 BenZacharia  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 12:00:19pm

#225 Proximate

Were the bad ones excommunicated?

227 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 12:33:58pm

The greek patriarch Photius excommunicated Pope Nicholas I during the Photian schism in 867. It's hard to get anyone excommunicated. A pope would have to publicly profess heresy to get excommunicated. A council of bishops would have to do it.

Here's one of the worst Popes:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

228 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 12:36:00pm

The pope in that link above, Pope Benedict IX, was excommunicated on charges of simony.

229 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 1:09:20pm
230 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 1:12:13pm
231 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 1:16:00pm
232 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 1:47:18pm

In case anyone in this discussion is interested in the Papal encyclical against the Nazis...

[Link: www.vatican.va...]

233 Proximate  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 1:55:04pm

Ploome: I am not disputing the crimes of history. Pope John Paul II issued some apologies for a reason.

It is also true that those who hate the Church magnify its wrongs. In the case of the Spanish Inquisition, it was called "Spanish" for a reason. The Spanish monarch was in the drivers seat, though the Pope gave him license. I'm not seeking to excuse Pope Sixtus IV or minimize the Church's crimes in any way... where blame is due.

The actions of Pope Pius XII and those who worked for him saved hundreds of thousands of Jews, perhaps 800,000. For this he's criticised for not doing enough.

"If the pope had spoken out, Hitler would probably have massacred more than six million Jews and perhaps ten times ten million Catholics, if he had the power to do so." Rabbi Marcus Melchior, Holocaust survivor and Chief Rabbi of Denmark, 1950.

"The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world." Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of the British Mandate of Palestine, March 1945.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII

BTW, speaking of allies, have you seen this?

234 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:17:51pm
235 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:19:54pm
236 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:20:40pm
237 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:24:04pm
238 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:24:49pm

Phoome Hineni#234

A good start would be the book by the Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide entitled Three Popes and the Jews.

Lapide estimates Pope Pius XII saved between 700,000 and 860,000 Jews during the Holocaust.

239 Pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 4:26:15pm

Here is one reference to Lapide-but there are many more online...

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

240 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:04:54pm
241 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:07:42pm

Do you view Rabbi Dalin as also an eccentric?

[Link: www.catholiceducation.org...]

242 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:10:18pm
243 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:12:36pm
244 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:17:08pm
245 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:19:01pm
246 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:21:58pm
247 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:34:04pm

Phoome #246

Lapide's book is very well documented. One of Pope Pius XII's most important actions on behalf of the Jews was his pressure on the Hungarian government to halt the deportation of Jews - an action which saved perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives in itself:

[Link: www.catholicleague.org...]

I think alot of the attacks on Pope Pius XII have more to do with people's attitudes toward the Roman Catholic Church(and especially those who adhere faithfullyto Catholic orthodoxy) then a real concern for historical truth. It is an institution with a unique moral authority and influence in Western civilization, and many people are uncomfortable with this influence.

P.S. sorry about the commentary link- I sent that off hastily as you rightly note.

248 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 5:42:33pm
249 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:05:39pm

#248 Phoome

For example leftists, radical feminists, secularists and liberals view the Roman Catholic Church as an obstacle to their agenda on such issues as abortion, sexual ethics(homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, contraception, etc...)radical feminism, and so forth. The Roman Catholic Church is an instition with over a billion of adherents, and has had a formative influence on Western civilization- thus its refusal to bend is a problem for those trying to promote their agenda.

Slandering a past Pope strikes me as an effort to undermine the moral authority of the Roman Church - its motives are on par with the Da Vinci code,etc...

250 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:24:11pm
251 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:30:14pm
252 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:35:15pm

#250 Phoome Hineni

I am glad to hear you don't have an anti-Catholic agenda.

No one knowledgable would deny that there has been anti-Semitism in the history of Christian Europe. I have been reacting to the extreme views like that the Catholic Church's official authorities ordered and commisioned Crusaders to massacre Jews, or that the Pope was a Nazi sympathizer.

Since these statements have no basis in fact, my presumption is that a person making them is either ignorant of history, or has an axe to grind - namely anti-Catholicism.

Reducing the history of Catholicism to episodes of anti-Semitism in Europe is like reducing the history of America to the slave trade and jim crow.

Like it or not the Catholic Church formed Western civilization (which historically evolved from Latin Christendom), and that makes it a rather large target for its detractors.

253 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:47:25pm
254 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:53:33pm

#251 ploome hineni

Historical baggage aside, I don't see why the NT should offend Jews.

The first Christians WERE members of the Jewish people who went on to have an extraordinary influence on world history, and the new religion carried the Jewish Bible(the Torah or OT) throughout the world. Christianity's human roots are in the civilization of Israel.


I realize though you were being somewhat jocular however in comparing the Da Vinci code and the Gospels.

255 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 6:59:19pm
256 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:02:52pm

#253 Ploome Hineni

Your historical knowledge is good on the Asturias question.

I am an American but my mother is from Spain. I just kind of liked the name Pelayo, and as the holdout against Islamic domination of Spain in the 8th century he sort of represents resistance to Jihad and Dhimmitude-no?

257 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:06:40pm

#255 Ploome Hineni

I'm no expert on the Da Vinci code but I have heard it represents the core doctrines of the Church as an elaborate conspiracy which malicious forces in the Church keep secret to keep their power and influence. Isnt that a bit anti-Catholic?

258 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:12:41pm

#253

BTW: Thanks for the links.

259 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:22:24pm
260 pelayo  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:44:36pm

Ploome Hineni #259

Now we are discussing the doctrinal issue that separates Judaism and Christianity. Obviously if Jesus was in fact the Son of God then his teaching and doctrine are true. If He was not the Son of God then Christianity is a false religion and as St. Paul put it "then is your faith vain, and our preaching vain".

But cannot Judaism and Christianity have a positive relationship in spite of their differing views on the identity of Jesus-a figure who ironically both unites and separates the two religious communities?

From my perspective in spite of the important doctrinal differences, it seems possible for Christianity to affirm in a positive way the Jewish roots of the Christian faith( as occured at Nostra Aetate in Vatican II). Many Jewish teachings after all(monotheism,God's creation of the world, the ten commandments, the divine origin of the OT,etc...) remain part of the Christian faith.

Similarly even from a secular perspective Jesus was a Jew who had an enormous impact on the religious beliefs and moral conscience of whole Western world. One might think that could be a matter of pride for Jews even if they do not accept Christian doctrines.

Unfortunately alot of of tragic history gets in the way of the ideal situation I am depicting. But I do think a Jewish/Christian alliance is in the making as old suspicions gradually diminish. The difficulties as well as successes of this are daily seen on the message boards of LGF!

261 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 7:57:17pm
262 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Mar 20, 2006 8:24:34pm
263 pelayo  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 6:01:08am

Ploome Hineni,

The idea that Christianity insofar as it departed from Judaism was invented by Paul is a common one, but in my view it can only be defended if one ignores the words of Jesus Christ as presented in the NT.

Among the teachings of Christ that did not yet exist in ancient Judaism were:

1) that He had all authority in heaven and on earth (Mt 28:18)

2)That no one comes to the father except through Him (John 14:6)

3)that He had authority to forgive sins Luke 5:20

4) The Trinity (e.g. Matt 28:19)

5)the institution of the Holy Eucharist (Luke 22:19ff)

On on the ethics I would say that Christ's teaching regarding love of enemies (Matt 5:44) was unique as far as I know among Jewish teachers.

264 sirach  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 6:40:32am

The dissolution of divorce comes to mind, and performing good works on the Sabbath

265 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:01:22am
266 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:02:17am
267 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:15:33am
268 sirach  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:20:01am

ploome,
Divorce,
Mat. 19:1-12,
1
1 When Jesus 2 finished these words, 3 he left Galilee and went to the district of Judea across the Jordan.
2
Great crowds followed him, and he cured them there.
3
Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, 4 saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?"
4
5 He said in reply, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female'
5
and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
6
So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate."
7
6 They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?"
8
He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9
I say to you, 7 whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery."
10
[His] disciples said to him, "If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry."
11
He answered, "Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted.
12
Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."

269 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:26:21am
270 Pelayo  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:30:41am

Ploome Hineni,

Sure. Here are the verses in question-you have the locations already from the previous post:

On His authority:

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

On Himself as mediator:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

On His authority to forgive sins:

And when he saw their faith he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."

On the Trinity:

19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

On the Eucharist:

19: And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
20: And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

On Love of enemies:

44: But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

All quotations are from the Revised Standard translation.

[Link: etext.virginia.edu...]

271 sirach  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:33:43am

working on the sabbath

Matthew again (I forgot what chapter)

1
1 At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads 2 of grain and eat them.
2
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the sabbath."
3
He said to them, 3 "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry,
4
how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat?
5
4 Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent?
6
I say to you, something greater than the temple is here.
7
5 If you knew what this meant, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned these innocent men.
8
6 For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath."
9
Moving on from there, he went into their synagogue.
10
And behold, there was a man there who had a withered hand. They questioned him, "Is it lawful to cure on the sabbath?" 7 so that they might accuse him.
11
8 He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out?
12
How much more valuable a person is than a sheep. So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."
13
Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and it was restored as sound as the other.

272 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:51:44am
273 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 8:54:58am
274 sirach  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 9:22:15am

a non issue, in the NT written by people who knew nothing about Judiasm

All the Apostles,Paul, and most of Jesus original followers were Jews,they would have had an inkling of what Judaism was.
Unless, they were of the same mold as contemporary American catholics.:-)

275 sirach  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 9:31:36am

p.S.The scripture verse cited was in answer to your original query ...
what did Jesus preach/teach that was NOT partof the Jewish faith?
...and nothing more. It wasn't an argument against Judaism.

276 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 10:24:01am
277 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 10:25:47am
278 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 10:26:09am
279 pelayo  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 1:44:36pm

#272 The corresponding citations were given in the preceding post. I pasted the verses in the same order I originally cited them for your convenience.

280 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 4:22:09pm
281 pelayo  Tue, Mar 21, 2006 5:29:05pm

#289 Ploome Hineni,

I HAVE PASTED MY TWO POSTS TOGETHER. I HOPE THAT MAKES YOUR RESEARCH EASIER.

The idea that Christianity insofar as it departed from Judaism was invented by Paul is a common one, but in my view it can only be defended if one ignores the words of Jesus Christ as presented in the NT.

Among the teachings of Christ that did not yet exist in ancient Judaism were:

1) that He had all authority in heaven and on earth (Mt 28:18)

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.


2)That no one comes to the father except through Him (John 14:6)

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

3)that He had authority to forgive sins Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."


4) The Trinity (e.g. Matt 28:19)

19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

5)the institution of the Holy Eucharist (Luke 22:19ff)

19: And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
20: And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

On on the ethics I would say that Christ's teaching regarding love of enemies (Matt 5:44) was unique as far as I know among Jewish teachers.

44: But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

282 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Mar 22, 2006 1:01:45pm

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