It's as if they want to see another attack on us.

If the US insists on having this information (and if we don’t, we’re in bigger trouble than I thought), it could mean that no EU citizen will be able to fly to the US.

That woill hurt the strong US economy.

It will utterly wreck the weak EU one. And I honestly won't give a damn when it does.

Insist! Are we a soverign nation or not?

Damn. And I so wanted to see the Grand Canyon

These people are not our allies.

We have to insist on this information. If they don't like it, they don't have to fly here. If it doesn't apply to US carriers flying across the Atlantic, it would also be a boost to our airlines.

I don't see how we can credibly say--although I don't put it past the pantywaists of the Republican party--that we don't need this information anymore.

Shit, even worse for me: I'm looking for a post-doc position in the States.

But air travel is too important for both; I think a compromise will be reached. Hopefully.

If the US insists on having this information (and if we don’t, we’re in bigger trouble than I thought), it could mean that no EU citizen will be able to fly to the US.

I'm trying to think of a downside to this.

Hmmm...

But what about flying with an American carrier then? They should continue as usual, no?

#7 Not to worry, we can just sneak in through Canada or Mexico. They don't care!

we are now nearing effective border control with europe.

I'm trying to think of a downside to this.

Shit, even worse for me: I'm looking for a post-doc position in the States.

OK, I found the downside.
I would love to have more people like Fabio C. here.

#7

And like the article mentions, trans-Atlantic flights can be good business that will be lost to European carriers if they can't follow US and EU law. US carriers will take all their business away. Unless a bunch of politicians on both sides decide to start a trade war :(

Luckily my trip this summer (on mileage) is through Vienna and Toronto on the way there and through Toronto on the way back, so I don't have a Europe-US flight. Next time fly El Al....

Good Morning Charles!

The European parliament is NOT "unelected".

However, I fail to see which law was violated here. I didn't know there was a law that forbids me to give information to the US when I want to travel there.

Simple solution. They don't share, they don't land. Fly to America on an American Airline.

#12

Well, just sneak 'em across the U.S.-Mexican Border, or the U.S.-Canadian Border. I doubt anyone is paying attention.

#8 Village Idiot's Apprentice:

I'm trying to think of a downside to this.

Too early for you to be that far inside my head.

Seriously though, maybe the EU needs to think about why the US wants this information.

#9 Fabio C.

But what about flying with an American carrier then? They should continue as usual, no?

Only if the reservation information supplied by the passenger to the airline is sufficient to meet whatever requirement the current agreement calls for.

Yet another "What the Hell" moment, brought to you by the hard-working bureaucrats of the EU.

It's one thing to be concerned about privacy.

It's another to insist, after 9/11, that air travel should be anonymous.

Perhaps the EU should now, being so concerned about privacy (uh huh), ban searches of luggage, x-ray machines and metyal detectors as well?

Or perhaps they'll stop harassing people who try to do business without using euros and metric measurements instead.

...There was a time when, point-to-point in the US, you couldn't be required to provide proof of identification. I'm pretty sure that has not been true internationally since shortly after the birth of aviation.

Insist upon getting the information, and let the European nations deal with their EU regulation problem. Don't worry, they'll do it, the way they ALWAYS deal with EU regulations that inconvenience them - they'll ignore them while insisting that they're not. Only the British will try to do the honorable thing, and will waste their time protesting and producing extensive arguments against the ruling. The rest of Europe will just be quietly turning over the information and carrying on business as usual.

Look on the bright side - no more eurotrash coming over.

OT what the dixie chicks website has to say about the TSA workers:

I reply, "Believe it or not, I'm headed to Austin to meet the Dixie Chicks." I explain this whole MSN/Dixie Chicks project, while suppressing my panic over the fact that my plane is scheduled to leave in a few seconds.

After a long silence, I realize that she's either unappeased with my explanation or suffering from lactose-induced borborygmus.

Eventually, the source of her discomfort becomes clear when she unleashes the following statement:

Well … I sure don't like those Dixie Chicks' political views. If they feel that way, I don't think they should be in our country!

After wondering when "The Incident" would first come up, the answer is in my face, vigorously groping my boxers and shaving kit. And I'm still a few hundred miles away from the Chicks!

I can't resist responding to Mimo, although I know I risk missing my flight.

I cautiously offer her my opinion that the Dixie Chicks are quite patriotic and simply aren't supporters of our current president's decision to go to war.

She huffs, "Well, I wasn't a big fan of the previous president, but you never saw me complaining."

I'm willing to bet that she did complain, most likely while waving a large IMPEACH CLINTON sign off Interstate 8.

While Mimo rummages through all my pockets, I eventually learn that she is a "huge country music fan."

But when I ask whether she once was a fan of the Dixie Chicks, she pauses and ponders the question for a long minute. She eventually responds, "I don't remember…I guess…yeah, I really did like their music a long time ago."

I am astonished to the point of speechlessness. Here is a person who loves country music, once adored the Dixie Chicks, but can't bring herself now to listen to them anymore because of one dissenting remark about President Bush, whose approval ratings are slightly lower than my chances of making the flight.

Her boycott of the Dixie Chicks doesn't seem out of principle as much as brainwashing, since she couldn't even remember whether she once enjoyed their music.

I have always believed the Dixie Chicks backlash seemed over-exaggerated, if not altogether manufactured by a few right-wing rabble-rousers.

But Mimo is a real flesh-and-blood American who still holds a stubborn grudge against the Dixie Chicks, even while sniffing my deodorant for anthrax.

Eventually, Mimo lets me go - but not before saying, "And those Dixie Chicks sure go through a bunch of different hairstyles!"

It's not clear which Natalie Maines's Bush-related comment or her oft-changing hairstyle is the bigger crime to Mimo.

Reading the article, the idea of keeping the records for 50 years seems quite preposterous to me. Actionable intelligence works on much shorter timescales.

As far as other data (eg meal choice) go, I understand the rationale behind it, but it would be better to shed the political correctness and flag people on the basis of name/nationality/appearance. I understand that entering another country is a privilege, not a right, so I'm ready to have my background checked.

#15 Leauki

It's hard to see how such things can be... but according to the articles "penumbra", the privacy (data protection) laws would prevent the airlines from passing on the information to the US.

Presumably even with the passengers consent, which does seem nutty,

#15 Leauki:

I didn't know there was a law that forbids me to give information to the US when I want to travel there.

Its not that, its that the transfer of passenger information from one government agency to another is deemed illegal.

Admittedly, the agencies are of a sovereign nation and the EU, but hey...there are US regulations about safeguarding that passenger information after it's transferred.

OT

ORIANA FALLACI interview with the New Yorker

LINK

#15 Leauki

The EU parliament is elected, but in practice isn't really accountable to the People. And bodies such as the Court of Justice are effectively isolated from the popular will.

If the EU won't give information to the US about possible terrorists flying into the country, then the US shouldn't give Europe any information about terrorists in their midst...

Mind you, I think the EU has more terrorists in their midst who are now being pandered to by the Eurabians, than America has!

Okay terrorists, the EU welcomes you with open arms, but it pointless going to America, they won't give you the free housing, healthcare, schooling, clothing, furniture, dentistry, optical care and spending money that Europe will.

Eurabia is the enemy of the USA.

Perhaps someone can explain to me... What ever happened to the time-honored custom of visiting the consulate or embassy of a foreign country and applying for a visa BEFORE attempting to travel there? Then, if they want to do a thorough screening - with fingerprints, retina scans or whatever biometrics they like - well that's their right as a sovereign country.

It'll be more inconvenient, to be sure, but not inordinately so... and those who don't feel that the lives of the foreign country’s nationals are worth their inconvenience, well, they can stay home – and good riddance. Certainly the private air carriers will be pleased to wash their hands of what should be (or so it seems to me) the predominantly governmental responsibility for safeguarding national territories.

#22 piglet

Wanna bet that asswipe made that whole thing up? Chicks with Dixs came out with a new video that looks like they are catering to goth/emo kids. The music is semi-country, and they suck as always.

29 zhorkon

I am flying to Russia this summer, and it is around $300 overall just on the visa crap. I would hate to do that over and over whenever I want to go somewhere.

Our Congress will probably "solve" this problem by granting amnesty to anyone from EU who wants to travel here.

This is an extreme example of a conflict of laws between two jurisdictions

No, dipshits, this is an extreme example.

That is just one more common-as-catsh!t example of Eurabian dhimmi asshattedness.

oh sweet enlightened ones: Please, send us your shoe-bombers!

We here in the US want your disgusting trash. At least the delicate EU leftists will feel good about all that International Law/terrorists right to privacy bullshit.

They can just fly to Mexico and sashay across the border with the help of the ACLU.

#21 Ward Cleaver

"Look on the bright side - no more eurotrash coming over. "

Unlucky for you, I'll visit anyway. Lucky for me not all Americans are like you.

And a nice greeting from Denmark to you!

Fine. We are already being hardasses about France not issuing biometric passports after we pushed the deadline back, so we can just start denying entry to anyone without a visa.

Tell the airlines that they are responsible for transporting anyone back across the pond who doesn't have one on their own dime, and I bet this decision will change.

It will definitely raise the inconvenience factor up by several notches. It would also (hopefully) keep any more planes from being turned back across the Atlantic after we find out someone questionable has departed from an European gateway an hour or more ago.

21 no more eurotrash coming over. "

what a disgusting thing to say,

No Pass list.

No landing permit.

#38 spanishpete

I apologize. I didn't mean all Europeans, and if anyone took offense, I am sorry. Especially FabioC., Fjordman, bweep, etc.

No info = No flights into the U.S. Simple.

But demanding that would require a backbone.

#36 SpartacusDk

As I said, my apologies to all our Euro lizardoids.

The price of entering the US through our porous Southern and Northern borders will be going up exponentially.

And, needless to say, any argument over constructing a fence or manning our borders becomes frivolous with the argument transforming itself into the question, 'How fast?'

Robert Spencer recalls today's dark anniversary;

Black Tuesday: The Last Day of the World

On Tuesday, May 29, 1453, the armies of the Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II entered Constantinople, breaking through the defenses of a vastly outnumbered and indomitably courageous Byzantine force. Historian Steven Runciman notes what happened next: the Muslim soldiers “slew everyone that they met in the streets, men, women, and children without discrimination. The blood ran in rivers down the steep streets from the heights of Petra toward the Golden Horn. But soon the lust for slaughter was assuaged. The soldiers realized that captives and precious objects would bring them greater profit.” (The Fall of Constantinople 1453, Cambridge University Press, 1965, p. 145.)

It has come to be known as Black Tuesday, the Last Day of the World.

History became legend, legend became myth ... and some of the things that should not have been forgotten were lost.

"Eurotrash" aren't very keen on travelling to the States anyway. Maybe for tourism, but the idea of living the american way of life makes them recoil in horror.

But I think in the end a deal, even covert, will be reached despite the posturing of the elites. Business is business.

#31 trigger girlie

Your point about the expense of getting a visa is well taken, but not entirely persuasive to me. I've gotten a lot of visas in my time, generally while traveling to places where the local gov't was more worried about letting in Jews, foreign "agitators", missionaries, etc. than they were about terrorists. And I have often thought that the visa "fee" I paid was a racket... much more than a reasonable charge for the real work done by the consulate.

However, security checks ARE expensive, if done well, and I for one would be pained but willing to pay the Russian gov't $300 if it would contribute to preventing another Beslan.

HEY it's the EU. These problems regarding the Anti-Terror Accord can be negotiated.

#45 FabioC.

If the Bush administration decides to go to the mat on this, it will have a big negative impact on European-flag carriers. Basically, no EU-flag aircraft landing in the US.

Of course that's assuming that the administration stands up to this. Hmmm...

The other way 'round.

What information do we share, or have to share, with the EU when US citizens travel there?

buying a ticket, getting on a plane, and flying to another country is private info?

from the country you are flying to?

WTF?

clealy moonbat-itis is spreading.

if god meant europeans to fly he would have given them the Wright Brothers.. flap , flap harder..

I've never been to Europe, and it makes me sad to think that by the time I'm able to go, there may not be any pre-dhimmi Europe left to see.

How culturally insensitive of the EU to expect us to meekly accept their gift of EUnik/Trojan horses after September 11th.

EU does not "feel our pain," as former Pres. Clinton might have said.

Fidel Castro will no doubt accept any & all EU flights not welcome in US airspace.

Please see Andy Garcia's movie "The Lost City" with Bill Murray and Dustin Hoffmann for a reality check on what's in store under HOllywood's favorite kind of EU/Salafist/Wahhab fascism.

Why do these EU member countries put up with this uber-dictatorship of this "parliament"?

More abdication of responsibility. Why should they not want to have their own country's money, laws, courts, and legistature?

We here inteh USA should learn from this scam. The flood of 100 million Legal immigrants over the next 15 to 20 yrs will create such a uber-ruling entity here. There will be the USA/Canada/Mexico axis and we in the USA,will be like the indivdual states of the EU:beholden to these dumb and dumber bureaucrats.

If the US insists on having this information (and if we don’t, we’re in bigger trouble than I thought), it could mean that no EU citizen will be able to fly to the US.

I for one am willing to follow through with that...their economies will tumble faster than ours (like they don't already suck ass)...

They can stew in their own unelected beaurocratic ignorance and malfeasance.

As a Brit, living in the U.S I can say a better solution would be for the U.S to suspend the Visa waiver program entry into the United States, and require all Europeans to apply for a Visa. All the info required for a background check should be available through that?

I don't think we should ban all EU flights. But we should tell the airlines that all flights where we don't have this information will have a fighter escort, charged to the airline. And all passengers will be subject to intense scrutiny and searches. Again, the airline will have to pay for the extra security.

Their aircraft will not be allowed to leave until the security bill is paid.

See how fast the airlines push to be allowed to share the data. An outright ban is easier to fight than security fees.

The fighter escort alone is probably going to make European airline flights completely uneconomical.

As a citizen of the USA, who might very well be killed or maimed by a hijacked airliner/missile arriving from the EU, I can only conclude that the ivory-tower EU snots are not on our side, nor on the right side of history in this fight against the barbarians.

And do they even remember that we pulled their chestnuts out of the fire in both WW1 and WW2?

Do they expect help this time?

I have a single, little question. What about European airlines that codeshare with US lines, like for example within the Star Alliance, say LOT or Lufthansa and United? These are flights operated by ie. LOT with a secondary UA flight number, or vice versa.
How will the Eurocrats solve that one? The assholes.

I am beginning to be very sorry I voted "Yes" for joining the EU.

Besides, airlines in the EU share passenger lists with the Interpol and EU immigration authorities. Int'l airports are the only "border posts" where travellers are still checked within the EU confines.

Sounds to me like maybe the Eurabian Court of Shari'a Justice was threatened with jihad.

But I'm fine with their decision, provided it's understood that all flights to the US from Eurabia will be via US owned and operated carriers only.

No exceptions; no whining.

In other words, fuck 'em.

If the US insists on having this information (and if we don’t, we’re in bigger trouble than I thought), it could mean that no EU citizen will be able to fly to the US.

If no deal is worked out and EU citizens con not fly to the US it will affect the US economeny, but I think it will hurt the EU even more. Hopefull we stand up and tell the EU that we want this info and if not, it's not our problem you can't come. I wonder where the ACLU type orgs will be on this one?

#29 & #51

Yep, the visa waiver program was designed to make it as easy for a EU citizen to visit the US as it was for a US citizen to visit Europe. For the Department of State, it meant that 200 jobs could be transfered from the Consular Section of our European embassies to other work. Supposedly saved money.

Today, the visa issuance program is under the supervision of the Department of Homeland Security...and they usually don't have more than one or two people in each US Embassy in EU countries. Only third country nationals living in EU countries have to get visas.

You are both correct in assuming that the info currently required from the airlines would be collected in the visa process. It still is, along with fingerprints, mug shot, &etc., from those individuals from countries which don't qualify for the visa waiver program

Sounds to me like maybe the Eurabian Court of Shari'a Justice was threatened with jihad.

Paranoid conspiracies are by no means exclusive to the Left.

Dr. Mabuse has it spot on. All the EU countries will just ignore the EU court as they always have done except one, UK which will spend ages and ages doing the right thing and trying to apply the law as stated and lobbying for a common sense solution.

Example. French ban British beef, EU court says let it in French ignore EU court, EU court fines French X million Euros, 10 years down the line amount of fine paid by France...

Zero.

We're the only damned fools who take these clowns seriously.

It is not conspiracy theory for those of us here in the US to feel threatened.

Every day we hear from the left and the rest of the damned world about how evil we are. Me personally, I am tired of it.

I am not evil, I am just afraid. Afraid for the future my grandkids face. Afraid that the US will cease to exist in my lifetime (and I am almost 49) because of the appeasers.

I am glad I got to see parts of Europe 25 years ago, before the muslim invasion. I will never go back. Why? Fear. I hear the stories of how Americans are treated. I will keep my custom local. Las Vegas is better than anything Europe has to offer any longer.

ZG

Will it be The EU first, or the United States that will suffer the first Urban "Dirty Bomb" and later the "Real Bomb" caused by easy entry of Islamic Terror cells ?

... Nuclear Hyper-proliferation.

Don't waste your money on "TIME"... the article still up at Frontpage ... http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.a sp?ID=21843 by Charles Krauthammer

...

Justice on Earth administered by Men is highly imperfect. If "the Islamic Bomb" strikes the EU next as the "Soft Target", Human nature will take over. The Social engineering, socialist bearucrats of the EU will be headed to "Madame guillotine" administered by the survivors and the mobs who will empower them. As in 1793 the EU French speakers will sell their souls for a little security. As in 1793 the capital crimes of course will be "Crimes against Liberty", however they choose to define it this time.

Social Chaos is less likely to be a problem here (unless multiple cities attacked or politics spin out of control to a thousand missiles being launched), the "Rayra Option" of sending islamists all home to the middle east, (along with Noam Chomsky and other fellow travelers) would be within the realm of probability.

The future looks interesting as security and freedoms erode. Get ready.

#68 Continued

From Charles Krauthammer's article

....Depending on your own beliefs, Ahmadinejad is either mystical or deranged. In either case, he is exceedingly dangerous. And Iran is just the first. With infinitely accelerated exchanges of information helping develop whole new generations of scientists, extremist countries led by similarly extreme men will be in a position to acquire nuclear weaponry. If nothing is done, we face not proliferation but hyperproliferation. Not just one but many radical states will get weapons of mass extinction, and then so will the fanatical and suicidal terrorists who are their brothers and clients.

That will present the world with two futures. The first is Feynman's vision of human destruction on a scale never seen. The second, perhaps after one or two cities are lost with millions killed in a single day, is a radical abolition of liberal democracy as the species tries to maintain itself by reverting to strict authoritarianism--a self-imposed expulsion from the Eden of post-Enlightenment freedom.

Can there be a third future? That will depend on whether we succeed in holding proliferation at bay. Iran is the test case. It is the most dangerous political entity on the planet, and yet the world response has been catastrophically slow and reluctant. Years of knowingly useless negotiations, followed by hesitant international resolutions, have brought us to only the most tentative of steps--referral to a Security Council that lacks unity and resolve. Iran knows this and therefore defiantly and openly resumes its headlong march to nuclear status. If we fail to prevent an Iranian regime run by apocalyptic fanatics from going nuclear, we will have reached a point of no return. It is not just that Iran might be the source of a great conflagration but that we will have demonstrated to the world that for those similarly inclined there is no serious impediment.

Our planet is 4,500,000,000 years old, and we've had nukes for exactly 61.

it could mean that no EU citizen will be able to fly to the US

Works for me.

The EUrocrats remind me of preschoolers.
Only these preschoolers have more power and cocaine. How unfortunate.

The hell with the prissy, snot nosed, metrosexual, "nuanced" EU. They and Russia as well are our enemy. No doubt about it.

Ziggy's Grammy:

I just got back from Europe a little over a week ago. I had a ball - the people I interacted with actually were friendlier than most American cities I have been to. I visited London and Stockholm.

In short, tales of European hatred of tourists may be exaggerated. But then, I have not visited France or Germany, and refuse to. When I was in the Netherlands three years ago, they were less friendly than in England and Sweden.

71 Quella

Question is, though, was it clear to them that you were of Jewish extraction, and if not, what kind of difference would that have made?

I think your general point is valid, though. The anti-Americanism is more of an elite thing. I don't think it is quite so strong among regular people. And it's also not anywhere near as strong in the East as in the West. Antisemitism is, but not anti-Americanism.

Earth2MoonBat:

I do remember saying I was a Jew, and not qualifying it by saying I was a "Jewish atheist."

I didn't receive an ounce of antisemitism in either London or Stockholm. Actually, you will like this part. I took a cab in Stockholm, and got into a long talk with this very friendly Lebanese cab driver. I was obviously American (and did not know a word of Swedish, so I could not hide it), and he had this big smile on his face when I said I was from America. He was the only European Muslim I have interacted with, and that was a friendly interaction. (though I did not tell him I was Jewish)

That all said...I did not frequent "hipster" bars or any of the places that those who would hate Americans would go to. I also did not stay in Europe for a long time.

Still...whenever I have been over to Europe, I have been treated well. The Irish are particularly friendly - there is nothing quite like a singing Irish pub. I actually sang "New York State of Mind" in said pub (3 1/2 years ago), and I received a free pint of Guiness.

#29 Zhorkon

Nice point and the EU bureaucrats shouldn’t be able to complain. In 1987 when I had to fly through France (not visiting, just changing planes in Paris returning from Africa), I had to get a visa to enter France. I understood their reasoning, Paris had been the target of bombings (Islamic groups – no surprise) and the French were forcing all non-European visitors to get visas. The French consulate in Toronto was a zoo though – you had to be there by 7 or 8 in the morning to get a number for an interview that afternoon.

We (the USA) are NOT really fighting the war with both hands. I sadly feel (oh GOD please make me wrong) that it will take an A-rab or Muzies(c) nuke to get us to use both hands. IF we were really full on fighting, the Prez would read the riot act to the Euro-trash and say fine, no ID's no entry....SIGH. I fear that it will take a WMD from the inbred Muzies to wise up the other half of us who think Michael Moore is right.--FU*K

#14 Carl in Jerusalem:

If in Toronto, email somebody here and maybe a Lizard Lunch (TM) will be scheduled.

No more Ayaan for you then, I guess.

This wasn't about the US not having the data it requires. The US has every right to ask for any data it requires to permit entry. You don't like it, don't go. Fine with me.

But that was not the issue. The court did not say that the US can't have those data. It said: The eurocrats in Brussels had no right to sign this agreement without legal base. And they didn't have one.

Only the respective national governments could make those agreements. I suppose this will happen now and probably without much ado.

Europeans are more concerned about who does what with their private data. That's not necessarily a bad thing. "Trust your government" is not a very American idea, either. Handling sensitive data involves a lot of trust.

I like the fighter escort idea.. and shoot to kill orders if they don't answer right .. when they alter course.. Freedom isn't free.. and any who think otherwise will not stay free.

And of course, the ACLU applaud this decision.

#78 KSK

You're probably right. Would have been nice if the report was "US must re-sign information agreements with European states instead of EU, Brussels says" instead...

If it ever came down to the US banning flights to the US by any EU member's national airline, what do you think would be the first thing that happens?

Yup! The EU countries would ban any US flagged airline from landing in any member country. So, who would win if this carried on any longer than a few weeks?

Aeroflot? Doubt it. Let's see, what country would make a deal with the devil if there happened to be any money in it? Starts with C, ends with A, and it's not Cuba. Hmmm (tapping chin, thinking, thinking, thinking)

Chinese Ambassador to Gov. official of (insert name of country here): "Ah, I see you have many planes that are sitting and not making money for you. We have offer! Let us flag planes with the flag of the PRC and we will fly them for you! It will only cost you $$$$$$ a week, but we give you a small percentage of profit."

#45 FabioC: "But I think in the end a deal, even covert, will be reached despite the posturing of the elites. Business is business."

I'm not so sure. Reason this, this whole issue of air travel vis-a-vis Europe is become a huge thorn in Washington's side. Between the continuing Airbus subsidies, the EU government's voiding of the UK's open-skies agreement with the U.S., and now this, some folks in Washington just might be willing to listen now to people who want various punishments levied agaisnt the European airlines and aeropspace businesses. Most likely this would take the form of limits on the number of flights per day that European-owned airlines can land in the U.S., as well as termination of negotiations regarding "cabotage" rights for European airlines (the right to pick up and transport passengers between destinations within the U.S.). But it could get more extreme:

1) Total ban on European-owned airlines from U.S. airspace.
2) Total ban on new Airbus aircraft from U.S. airspace.
3) Draconian restrictions on Europeans entering the U.S.(e.g., obtaining visas 90 days in advance, or 24-hour quarantine upon arrival).

As other posters have pointed out, this would hurt the U.S. economy, but it would hurt Europe's economy worse.