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International Committee of the Red Cross is Covering Up Evidence

Fri, Sep 1, 2006 at 8:42:38 am PDT

As reported here last Monday, the International Committee of the Red Cross had formerly made available on their web site a high resolution photograph of the ambulance supposedly hit by an Israeli missile.

This high resolution photo, which shows an enormous amount of detail on the amazingly undamaged ambulance, was deleted from the ICRC web site shortly after zombie’s exposé of the fraud was posted.

The ICRC has ignored requests for information about why the photo was deleted, so we can now reasonably conclude that they are deliberately covering up the evidence, in the hope that no one will be able to glean any more useful analysis from the only publicly available high res image of the vehicle. This is unethical behavior in the extreme, and implies that they have something to hide.

It’s not the crime that really takes you down. It’s the cover-up.

Here is the photograph they attempted to make vanish: Ambulance 782.

Here is the page at their site where the photo originally appeared: Conflict in the Middle East: selection of photos.

And here is a screenshot of the Google cache of this page (from Monday — it’s since been updated and no longer shows the broken image link and caption), showing where the ambulance image was deleted, while other images were not:

UPDATE at 9/1/06 9:28:39 am:

Andrew Bolt consults military experts: The ambulance hoax - why no missile could have done this.

There is no weapon that would deliver terminal effects consistent with the pictures, the alleged story and the reputed damage done to ambulance and people.

Here are some hard facts easily locatable on the internet via globalsecurity.org which is an invaluable open source free intelligence site.

The Israeli Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV or “drone“) index is here. As you can see Israel fields 10 UAV types. Of the ones with technical specifications only the Harpy deploys a weapon payload. However as it is designed to support suppression of enemy air defence it would deploy a radar seeking missile capable of destroying a hardened air defence radar station. Clearly a Harpy wasn’t deployed.

A weapon deploying UAV would be one of the remaining three without technical specifications. Let’s assume it is similar to the US Predator an armed UAV. Here are its specifications and some photos. As you can see from the front page it deploys a Hellfire missile. Here are the hellfire missile specs and some photos. The missile itself is 64 inches or about 1.5m long, weighs around 100lb and has an explosive payload of around 35 lbs.

Clearly something like that slamming through a vehicle is going to destroy it even if it doesn’t go off, after all the missile is designed to kill a 70 tonne tank, so a half ton unarmoured ambulance doesn’t stand a chance.

Now if it didn’t explode there is a 1.5m long 35lb undetonated warhead stuck in the road somewhere near Qana. No doubt Martin Chulov can go and get a photo of it. Of course it is possible that Israel has no anti armoured missile armed UAV as well. I would love to know what Tony Jones’ source is for the Israelis using such a weapon system so that the data can be checked thoroughly.

Israel has two air to surface missiles. The hellfire is not listed so I assume the NT family is the Israeli equivalent. The Gabriel is an anti shipping missile and the NT family are anti armoured missiles. Unfortunately it has no real detailed specs listed and one non photographic image. You can see from its range of over 4km (from link page) that it needs to carry fuel and have a large propulsion and guidance unit, so it is probably smaller than the hellfire (less range) but the deliver system is likely to be at least 1m long.

Once again as it is designed to destroy tanks it would have a significant warhead that would obliterate a lite van ambulance. If it didn’t detonate it would go right through the floor and would be stuck in the road somewhere posing a significant danger to people in the area. Perhaps Martin Chulov could confirm with the UN Mine Action Centre in UNIFIL if they have any reports of unexploded missiles stuck in the road near Qana. Because if any of these weapons went off the vehicle would be incinerated.

Of course there are no lesser warhead missiles listed for Israel, nor any I know of for the US. Who would field a $2 million missile only to equip it with a $200 war head that couldn’t even stop a van? It defies logic that this is the case and pursuing this line, as Tony Jones did on “Lateline”, is not so much a case of hope triumphing over common sense or experience, it is absolute idiocy. And no doubt Tony Jones has previously called “Military Intelligence” an Oxymoron!

Now going through this has taken me my lunch break. Of course twenty years military experience is more difficult to replicate but should the “Australian” or the ABC have really wanted to check the accuracy of its claims it could have gone to a military consulting company and got some independent bomb damage assessment from someone who knows what they are looking at. No doubt a number of people working in Aerospace in Australia, its associated media or companies like Boeing would have been able to provide a more reasonable verification of the story. But no, Martin Chulov goes and asks the guy who lied to him in the first place if he lied. The answer was a definite “no” with some modifications to the original version of events. Sounds a bit like “Justice” Einfeld!

At a minimum the Editor of the Australian owes Alexander Downer and the Australian public a full, fulsome and prominent editorial apology!

UPDATE at 9/1/06 12:20:58 pm:

Goldstein has an alternate theory...

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196 comments

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Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 DesertSage  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:45:26am

If it doesn't conform with your bias, just make it disappear...

2 nightlight  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:46:22am

Ambulance attack victim's anger at hoax allegations

[Link: www.smh.com.au...]

3 Orbit Rain  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:46:34am

The Red Cross is no longer a charitable organization...I say tax the hell out of it.

4 armymarinemom  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:46:59am

Why am I not shocked. I'm still wondering if they were the NGO that recieved information from the officer that was recently busted.

5 Blackacre  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:47:08am

It's not going down the memory hole this time, folks. Kudos to Charles and zombie for their efforts.

6 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:47:39am
7 mbruce  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:47:51am

I guess we're just not the "move along,nothing to see here" kind of folk that they were hoping for.
Zombie and Charles: The Heat Makers!

8 Praxeus  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:48:20am

zombie caught 'em with their pants down..........

9 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:48:35am

Step away from that cross
and quickly...
erect the crescent of your masters,
you Gramscian ambulance whores.

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

10 WrathofG-d  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:48:50am

Ahhhh the International Red Cross......

otherwise remembered as the organization that OK'd the Nazi Concentration Camps during ww2.

Only the IRC could find a nondestroyed bombed out ambulance in Lebanon but not a death camp at Aushwitz.

11 transient  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:48:52am

Moreover, why does the ICRC have nothing to say when Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances are proven to be used to tranport weapons, bombs, suicide bombers, and to help armed, uninjured terrorists escape from the battle zone?

12 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:49:10am
It’s not the crime that really takes you down. It’s the cover-up.

Yup. Ask Rather.

13 Orbit Rain  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:49:55am

nightlite:

"But a Red Cross volunteer who was in the same ambulance as Mr Fawaz, 41, said he bled onto his stretcher, but not excessively as his leg had been cauterised."

...how convenient, a rocket shoots through your leg and hardly any blood!

14 blue_like_jazz  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:51:09am

keep on nipping at their heels, fellas and dames! keep on nipping with the FACTS, with the TRUTH, with NO LET UP until they cry "Uncle!"

15 hepcat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:51:17am

Rust never sleeps!

16 elBarto  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:52:06am

13 The joos now have a missle that will take offa leg cauterize it and suture it and not burn out the interior of the ambulance.

Dang they are clever people.

17 BingoBunny  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:53:45am

When you have the evidence ..bang on the evidence.. when you don't have the evidence..hide the photos and claim rust forms in a matter of minutes in Lebanon.

18 DocMartyn  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:54:16am

You should write to the head of the ICRC in Palestine, that would be Yassa Arafats brother, to ask the Palestinians to advise the Lebonese on how to deal with Journalists.

19 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:54:18am

If Yeshua comes back and sees them hiding behind that Cross while helping the Abomination that Causes Desolation (Islam)
they are in for a revelation of an ass kicking.....

[Link: i30.photobucket.com...]

20 transient  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:54:46am

OT, Breaking: Jetliner accident in Iran kills up to 80.

Naturally, the US is ultimately to blame, even though the plane was a Russian Tupelov.

Iran has blamed some recent crashes of its American-made planes on U.S. sanctions that it says make it difficult to import spare parts, even from Europe. It does not have similar difficulty buying parts for its Russian planes, some of whose recent crashes have been blamed on poor maintenance and other problems.

If it weren't for those nasty punitive US sanctions, the Iranian people wouldn't have to suffer by being forced to use substandard Russian equipment.

Maybe Iran should rethink its defiance on its nuclear program.
But, then again, the safety of its citizens has never been its first priority.

21 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:55:06am

I'm having a moment of self-pity here as I realize that I've become so jaded that I'm not particularly outraged by these immoral and unethical actions.

Where's my youthful naivete? My hope?

22 ORD neighbor  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:55:21am

The memory hole of 1984 tries to live on. But it is not working. TFK is right on.

23 eLoser  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:57:10am
24 Abu Maven  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:57:26am

Yeah, but Zombietime is a Zionist website with pictures of naked cyclists. We're unbiased soothsayers.

/MSM

25 hepcat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:59:26am

Is the media that gullible -- or does it have a political bias? -zombietime

26 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:59:29am

The MSM just isn't interested in this story. Very frustrating.

27 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:59:32am

What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive.

That's for you, ICRC.

28 Alouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:59:45am
29 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:00:38am

Please send emails with links to zombie's expose to any newspaper that ran a story on the supposed Israeli airstrike on the Red Cross ambulanecs.

Ask them to retract the story as a hoax.

30 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:00:42am

#3 Orbit Rain

The Red Cross is no longer a charitable organization...I say tax the hell out of it.

The ARC is a seperate organization from the ICRC, and has been dueling with ICRC over issues related to Israel. I wish the US government could tax the ICRC, but they can't. The ARC has been on the side of the good guys.

31 Terp Mole  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:00:54am

Now they're circling the wheelchairs;

Ambulance attack victim's anger at hoax allegations

AHMED FAWAZ sits in a wheelchair in a sweat-stained hospital gown, smoking a cigarette in the sweltering heat.

He was discharged from a Beirut hospital this week, after losing his leg when a Lebanese Red Cross ambulance he was in with his family came under an Israeli air attack in south Lebanon on July 23.

The incident near the village of Qana left his son Mohammed, 12, scarred by shrapnel.

32 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:01:10am

#2 nightlight

He appears to have drawn his conclusions from a right-wing Florida-based website, zombietime.com, that debunks all reporting on the incident using available press photos and TV footage as "evidence".


Another fine example of MSM fact checking.

33 J.D.  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:01:17am

#26 Killgore Trout
It calls everything into question.
This is very inconvenient.
Unbearably, it seems.

34 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:02:20am

So Charles, are you going to have to add an ICRC visitor counter now?

I'll bet they're lurking.

35 ronnie  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:03:05am

#20 - it is Tupolev, but you probably already knew that and this was just a typo because you typed it fast.

But it is interesting to hear what the Russians would have to say about this - how would they like to hear from one of their customers that the Tupolev is inferior to a Boeing or an AirBus? ;-) heheheh It is the truth, but in this case, the truth happens to hurt one of the only nations standing up to defend Iran (besides the Chinese). So even in trying to spread its mass media propaganda that the sanctions are hurting them, Iran looks bad ;-)

Good to see the mad mullahs caught in their own web of lies and deception - if you give them enough rope, they surely end up hanging themselves...

36 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:03:08am

#32 Killgore Trout

Morons can't even get their coasts right.

37 otcconan  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:03:26am

This wouldn't happen if Liddy Dole was still in charge.

38 eLoser  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:04:05am

#3 orbit rain:

good point. is the ICRC covered for tax exempt status under 501(3)c or similar language? if so, have the terms of their status been violated to the point of surrender?

next, howsa 'bout CAIR?

finally for zombie: took your site bloody ages to load; any chance of load distribution in your future?

39 Carridine  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:04:48am

O Red Cross,

"O SON OF BEING!
Bring thyself to account each day are thou art summoned to a reckoning, for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds."

The Glory of God,
the Lord of Hosts

40 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:05:06am

Rabbi Pimpowitz says:

Do your part for the Reptilian Zionist Conspiracy and the
Anti-Gramscian Revolucion!

Hit Zombie's tip jar
via paypal
zombie@zombietime.com

and
ZAPPA DE UMMAH!

41 J.D.  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:05:09am

#37 otcconan
Different outfit.

42 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:06:17am

#35 ronnie

If Iran would just stop all the stuff they're doing, and allow democratic elections, they could buy some nice 737-900s to replace their TU-154Ms.

43 uncle_monkey  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:06:41am
"He appears to have drawn his conclusions from a right-wing Florida-based website, zombietime.com, that debunks all reporting on the incident using available press photos and TV footage as "evidence".

Boy, Zombie you sure get around.

And that missle - I saw it!
It was long and cylindrical.

It was brown and sticking in the ground when we hit it it hit us. There were a bunch of wires on the top linking it to many other missles.

44 Terp Mole  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:07:41am

The Age interviews the ambulance occupants as the plot thickens!

Ambulance attack evidence stands the test

...Mr Fawaz's elderly mother Jamila crawled out of the vehicle while the volunteers carried Mohammed, Ahmed's son, who was unconscious. They could not reach Mr Fawaz with rockets from drones hitting around the ambulance and the building they were in.

"If (Alexander Downer) thinks it was a hoax, he should come and see the ambulances himself," said Sami Yazbek, the head of the Lebanese Red Cross in Tyre.

"What, he thinks we lied?" said Mr Hassan in disbelief. He said he was saved by a helmet and bulletproof armour he was wearing that was strafed at the back. He said his helmet is pocked where shrapnel hit.

Did his elderly mother and son have bulletproof armor, too?

45 Carridine  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:07:58am

#32 - Killgore: Nay, rather, an MSM obfuscation and calumny exercise: label it extremist and 'right-wing' and millions of minds across America will snap shut, and read no more, turning quickly to the funnies...

46 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:08:01am

I hate to say this, because I think Zombie has done an outstanding piece of work on it's own merits, but the MSM will be able continue to deflect all of the evidence as long as they can tarbrush Zombie as a marginal character. Somebody with some more media cred is going to have to step up, and not only just echo what Zombie said, but add to this discussion. If that doesn't happen, I predict that Hezbollah, the ICRC, and the MSM will get away with this.

47 Just_A_Grunt  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:08:13am

What are the chancees that if the ambulance or any of its occupants were hit by some sort of rocket that it winds up being one of those high tech Katyusa rockets that the Hezbos use? With all of this talk about shrapnel it sure sounds more and more like one of those then it does any munition fired by the IAF.

48 jamgarr  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:08:16am

#28 Alouette

From the article:

Just how successful the Zombie has been in spreading the message is not clear. The site technorati.com — which measures the connections and mentions that build credibility in the web — show it as a low-wattage player.

In that case - dim bulbs rule!

49 Orbit Rain  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:08:26am

earth2moonbat...

argh

I forgot about that fact.

50 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:10:06am

#28 Alouette
It is hysterical to me that we are all called "right wing" now..

Rippies.

Right
Wing
Hippies




BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAA


/All the left's bongs are belong to me

51 Geepers  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:10:30am

Alouette (#28),

From your link:

WHO is the Zombie behind zombietime.com?

He claims to be a "photoblogger" who lives in San Francisco. For fun, he attends protests by people of opposite political inclinations to his own — the extreme left. He turns their placards against them, takes photographs and posts the images on his site.

I can see a Cox & Forkum "The Terrible Secret of Zombie" on the horizon.

52 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:10:31am

#35 ronnie

Oh, please. You're transliterating from another alphabet. His spelling was just as legitimate as yours.

53 jamgarr  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:11:10am

#31 Terp Mole

Now they're circling the wheelchairs

ROFLMAO!

I hereby nominate for rotating title status

54 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:11:52am

Never mind

WHO IS JOHN GALT?

Now we have
WHO IS ZOMBIE?

I want to put up billboards.
Who's rich and can pay for it?

:~P


LOL!

55 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:11:52am

ot.............

.Diana West explains some of the most unsettling aspects of the conversions of Centanni and Wiig:

The most shocking thing about the Centanni-Wiig "conversion" is the silence that has followed. First, there is silence from Islam. Shouldn't Muslim religious leaders, and particularly "beautiful and kind-hearted" Palestinian Muslim religious leaders, vehemently condemn the forced conversions? As Mr. Bostom put it, "Will such Muslim authorities at least recognize the acute predicament of Centanni and Wiig by issuing a fatwa stating that their 'conversion,' being under duress, was not bona fide, condemning in advance any Muslim who might now attack these journalists for 'apostasy' from Islam?"
Yes, of course, they should -- at least according to any Western understanding of compulsion and morality -- but don't hold your breath. Meanwhile, holding their breath is exactly what Western media are doing when it comes to covering (not covering) the story. Even Fox's Greta van Susteren, a tabloidesque host who never met a bodily fluid she couldn't elaborate on, went delicate on us the other night, failing, in a one-hour "exclusive" interview with the two men, to ask a single question about their religious ordeal -- presumably at their request.
Why? Who or what is served by shutting up? Only forces of coercion -- a word which, after all, implies the nullification of individual will. Which means this is one case where silence isn't golden and ignorance isn't bliss. They are dangerous and dumb.


[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

56 Just_A_Grunt  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:12:34am

Going OT since everybody appears to have jumped the shark over to here.

I found this on John of Arggh blog

Investigators said they are comparing several other cases where vehicles evidently stolen in the United States wound up in Syria or other Middle East countries and ultimately into the hands of Iraqi insurgent groups -- including Al Qaeda in Iraq, led by Jordanian-born Abu Musab Al Zarqawi


Here is the full story.

Everything is connected.

57 blue_like_jazz  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:12:46am
#28 Alouette
It is hysterical to me that we are all called "right wing" now..

Rippies.

Right
Wing
Hippies

BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

/All the left's bongs are belong to me


ummmmm..... you gonna keep all those bongs? how about giving us the "hook-ah up"?!?

58 Beagle  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:12:53am

#6 tfk

Exactly. One of my favorite dead white guys (Lord Acton) put it this way.

"I exhort you never to debase the moral currency or to lower the standard of rectitude, but to try others by the final maxim that governs your own lives, and to suffer no man and no cause to escape the undying penalty which history has the power to inflict on wrong."


The ICRC needs to get right with history.

Missiles don't punch out vents and leave the interior of a vehicle unsinged. If the Israelis did drop some sort of guided lawn dart (not a bad concept) then it would be intact and wedged in the ambulance.

The Australian is going to need a reputation transfusion after this is over. The Internet doesn't sleep or give up without a fight.

59 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:13:05am

I AM ZOMBICUS!

[Link: ffrevolution.com...]

60 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:13:09am

#28 Alouette
I didn't know Zombie did an interview.
blonde sagacity: Stop! Zombie Time!
Interesting.

61 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:13:42am

57 blue_like_jazz
LOL you're in.
Hashem gave the Holy Leaf to all!

62 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:14:16am
63 Terp Mole  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:15:15am

Zombie has reached the status of "Most Talked About" in the Australian's Letters section today.

And they invite your feedback!

64 blue_like_jazz  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:15:59am
#61 BabbaZee 9/1/2006 09:13AM PDT
57 blue_like_jazz
LOL you're in.
Hashem gave the Holy Leaf to all!

bless you, my sistah. send it to me C/O the denver airport......

65 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:16:10am
The Iranian Mullahs either already have, or will very soon be in possession of, nuclear weapons. This reality is horrifying in the context of Iranian President Ahmadinejad’s verbalized fantasy of annihilating Israel. Part of this fantasy, and also the inspiration for it, is the apocalyptic world vision of Ahmadinejad -- and of many of his co-rulers. This vision involves the Islamic Shiite belief in the return of the Hidden Imam, who, according to some, was supposed to have returned on August 22 -- which Ahmadinejad ominously referred to when speaking about Iran’s nuclear ambitions. The date has passed, of course, and no Hidden Imam has yet, arguably, appeared; nor has an Apocalypse, in our literal understanding of it, transpired.

By why did the Iranian president refer to August 22? And who exactly is the Hidden Imam? How and why does his supposed return inspire the nuclear Mullahs’ visions of annihilating Israel and, eventually, the rest of the non-Islamic world? Does Ahmadinejad believe that “speeding things up” in terms of the usage of nuclear weapons will hasten the return of the Hidden Imam?

To discuss these and other questions with us today, we have assembled a distinguished panel of experts. Our guests today are:


[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

66 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:16:41am

As with the TANG memos, there are several pieces of evidence with this ambulance story that alone prove it is a hoax. Together, of course, they are devastating to the tale.

One of those is the rust. Rust after one week. That is some amazing, magic rust. And it shows up so well around the gashes and holes in that deleted high-res, along with the flange and the ambulance with the central vent in the background.

Lebanon is such a damp jungle environment, rust must form more quickly than it would in, say, a desert.

/sarcasm

67 shlemazl  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:16:46am

Perhaps the removal of the photo is the admission of guilt. Perhaps they don't answer because they are scared of the legal implications.

It's a stretch, but let's hope so.

68 Doss  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:19:41am

Contact your local Red Cross and ask them about this. Even if the American Red Cross isn't culpable, they should know what's being done by the ICRC.

69 therewaslight  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:19:45am

#31 This article said zombie is a he... isn't zombie a she?

70 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:20:28am

#64 blue_like_jazz

71 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:20:35am

OT

Rush is talking about the abc movie "Path to 9/11" and how clinton is trying to get them to recut and reedit the movie.

72 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:21:16am

#69 therewaslight
Zombie is a mystery
He is a she is a he is a she
as it suits herm

73 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:23:05am

#65 storagemanager .....

Bostom: My colleagues Tim Furnish, Bob Spencer, and Serge Trifkovic—spurred by Jamie Glazov’s insightful queries and comments—have presented the overall complexity of the theological framework for Sunni/Shi’a eschatology, and its potential relationship to an Iranian nuclear doomsday scenario. Allow me to highlight a relevant area of emphasis not yet discussed: the centrality of the Jews to Muslim eschatology

Vajda’s research demonstrates how in Muslim eschatology Jews are described as adherents of the DajjÇl—the Muslim equivalent of the Anti-Christ—and as per another tradition, the DajjÇl is in fact Jewish. At his appearance, other traditions state that the DajjÇl will be accompanied by 70,000 Jews from Isfahan wrapped in their robes, and armed with polished sabers, their heads covered with a sort of veil. When the DajjÇl is defeated, his Jewish companions will be slaughtered— everything will deliver them up except for the so-called gharkad tree. Thus, according to a canonical hadith, (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985), if a Jew seeks refuge under a tree or a stone, these objects will be able to speak to tell a Muslim: “There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him!”

As Vajda observes,

Not only are the Jews vanquished in the eschatological war, but they will serve as ransom for the Muslims in the fires of hell. The sins of certain Muslims will weigh on them like mountains, but on the day of resurrection, these sins will be lifted and laid upon the Jews.

Hence one can better understand the obsessive fixation on the Jews in both Shi’ite and Sunni eschatology, and the obvious connection to the ongoing jihad being waged to destroy Israel.

74 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:23:12am

#60 Killgore Trout
great interview.

75 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:24:30am
76 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:24:35am

#69 therewaslight

This article said zombie is a he... isn't zombie a she?


Zombie is many things. Zombie is all things. Zombie is.
/Zen Trout

77 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:24:42am

Dan Riehl has a different explanation.

From the comments to his post, where I asked him


I'll raise you another question, Mr. Riehl. What is the ICRC motivation for taking down the high resolution photo of the wreckage?

If the story could stand up to public scrutiny, I doubt they'd be hiding the evidence, don't you think?

Posted by: Dar ul Harb | Tuesday, August 29, 2006 at 10:55 PM

His response:

They rotate images there all the time. The fact is it was down weeks ago. Haven't you noticed that other images have changed, as well? Because they have. I have a copy of the 4mb image, as do plenty of others because "they'd" made it available. Listen, I am no friend of the ICRC given that they admit to helping enemy combatants the second they lay down their guns after being hurt. And I would support a boycoot on donations to the ICRC until that practice is stoppped. But I am not going to see a consipracy when a website graphioc is rotated without somehting else to hang my hat upon.

Posted by: Dan Riehl | Tuesday, August 29, 2006 at 11:07 PM

Now, I haven't actually investigated to find out whether this is actually the case, but its seems like a very convenient excuse...

78 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:25:03am
using available press photos and TV footage as "evidence".

Sneering scare quotes around evidence. I love it!

Sneering because people are looking closely of the very photos that the helpful media took and published for them. I suppose still photos and TV footage are sorry evidence indeed compared to...uh...well, just take their word for it, 'kay?

(sneer voice on)

These bloggers, with their facts and their evidence and their logic. I'm so sick of them bringing up logic and evidence. Don't they know truth is more what you know in your heart than any "records?"

(sneer voice off)

79 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:25:04am
Furnish: Anyone who says that "there is no anti-Semitism in Islamic theology" is frankly ignorant, on a par with someone who claims that "Islam is (solely) a religion of peace."

As Andrew Bostom just succinctly pointed out, Muslim eschatology has as its main antagonist the Jewish Dajjal and his minions. David Cook points out in his book on Muslim apocalyptic that for Muslims who take their eschatology seriously (and that seems to be a growing number today), "the Jew" is the metahistorical foe, whereas "the Christian" is (merely) the historical one. So whereas tactical alliances are possible with the latter, they NEVER are with the former

.
[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

80 wargammer2005  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:26:32am

taxfreekiller

i really dont beleive history will have one word to say on this.

look at how many americans are proud to be demo-traitor-crats and how Venona has been ignored

look at all buildings named after stalin apologists

look at how a traitor can run for president and almost win.

81 blue_like_jazz  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:27:22am

babba... thanks for the link! what a great rendition.

/is it 4:20 yet?

82 grayp  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:28:34am

Whoa! check this out! Richard North of EU Referendum has gone legal eagle over the Qana reporting and filed a complaint with the Press Complaints Commission against
The Independent, The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail.

the complaint has qualified for acceptance and the Commission has agreed to "look at it".

83 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:29:07am

#63 Terp Mole
Interesting. most of the "Nay sayers" seem to focus on Zombietime being a blog rather than the facts of the story or any evidence. Willful ignorance.

84 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:30:18am

In the course of the past six weeks, Venezuela's left-wing President Hugo Chavez has been on a dizzying round of travel, taking in a dozen countries.

His interest in international players like Russia and China may seem obvious, but Mr Chavez also found time to call in on minnows like Benin and Angola.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

85 shug  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:30:58am

Hey, what happened to the blue cone on the front of the damaged ambulance ( compare it to the other working ambulance )

did the missile remove the blue light cover, as well as the siren megaphone, as well as remove the light bulb?


LOL

86 Teacake!  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:31:03am

It would be wonderful for the American RedCross to sever ties with international RedCross

87 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:32:08am

SO-CAL TROPICAL CYCLONE DISASTER WATCH


Ok, not too likely, but one never knows...


6Z GFDL landfall near Ensenada, B.C. Norte (where I have been drunk) as a 75 km/hr tropical storm, with wind gusts to gale force into San Diego county?

10 cm of rain in interior San Diego would be impressive as well

88 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:32:24am
89 bjjfiter  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:32:27am

Doesn't this photo look like it was peppered with the same kinds of ball bearings that were packed into the Katyusha rockets fired into Israeli towns by Hezbollah?

90 Spiny Norman  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:33:06am

#44 Terp Mole

Did his elderly mother and son have bulletproof armor, too?

The story is reaching

91 Charles  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:34:02am

Dan's wrong. The graphic was not "rotated" ... it was deleted, while other images on the same page were not. The proof for this is above.

92 Teacake!  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:34:23am

#60 Killgore Trout THANKS! FANTASTIC

93 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:34:26am

OT

The movie "The Path to 9/11" which clinton is trying to get reedited to revise his incompetancy is being discussed by Rush and here is link to movie:

[Link: abc.go.com...]

94 Spiny Norman  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:34:29am

Hey! The blog ate my comment (or at least nibbled on it a bit)

#44 Terp Mole

Did his elderly mother and son have bulletproof armor, too?

The story is reaching

95 J. Lichty  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:34:44am

I swear I was looking for that black guy in the crowd shot below the missing ambulance picture.

96 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:35:17am

#72, BabbaZee

I am he
as you are he
as you are me
and we are all together
See how they run
like pigs from a gun
see how they fly...
--The Beatles, "I Am The Walrus Zombie"

97 Spiny Norman  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:35:32am

Hey! The blog ate my comment (or at least nibbled on it a bit... again!)

#44 Terp Mole

Did his elderly mother and son have bulletproof armor, too?

The story is reaching Through The Looking Glass levels of absurdity, yet the Lamestream Media continues to "stand behind it". It's like a case of the horribly abused and battered wife "standing by her man".

What is this thing called "credibility"?

98 Spiny Norman  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:36:41am

Wow. That was an ordeal. 5 attempts.

99 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:38:08am

#85, shug


Hey, what happened to the blue cone on the front of the damaged ambulance ( compare it to the other working ambulance )

did the missile remove the blue light cover, as well as the siren megaphone, as well as remove the light bulb?

Q: How many Israeli missiles does it take to change a light bulb?

100 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:38:13am

Terp Mole,

Did his elderly mother and son have bulletproof armor, too?

The story is reaching

Mr. Fawaz mother and son were carried to safety by a saintly mountain gorilla named Coco. He was the one wearing the bulletproof armor.

101 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:38:19am

#96 Dar ul Harb
Perfect!

102 wargammer2005  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:38:29am

ok

as for weapons carried by helicopters

5.56 mini-guns, 4000 rpm now way one of theses hit the "ambulance"

7.62 machine guns, possible, not likely do to the size of the holes

7.62 mini-guns, no way!

20mm cannon, there would be no ambulance left

30mm cannon, just peices of people and ambulance left

35mm cannon, even smaller pieces

77mm rockets, each as powerful as a mortar round, each pods carries over 12 of them, launched in salvos. there wouldn't be a surviver to chat with

hellfire, laser guided big bang.... for killing tanks.

tow, same but wire-guided, the wires would have been there.

and Israel doesnt have apache helos, that i have been able to find.

103 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:40:11am

#81 blue_like_jazz
It's always 4:20 somewhere!

104 wargammer2005  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:41:29am

storagemanager

hugo, china, and russia are trying to line the US up for a war with south america.

china and russia wants us hurt and distracted.

hugo also wants the bomb.

105 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:42:16am

#99, Dar ul Harb

A: One, but you really have to believe!

106 theheat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:42:48am

Uh, what about the two Israeli soldiers that were kidnapped - did they slip out the hole in the ambulance roof?

107 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:42:49am

'Somthing terribly wrong' about aiding enemies in time of war


by Ed Koch
SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM Why do so many Americans refuse to face the fact that our country is at war with international terrorism?



The leading terrorist group, Al Qaida, is fighting us on the ground in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Both Iran and North Korea are threatening nuclear war. And yet many Americans, including some Congressional Democrats, denounce President Bush, and in so doing, weaken our country’s ability to resist Islamic fascism. One Congressional Democrat, John Conyers of Michigan, announced his intention to impeach the President when Republicans lose control of both Houses of Congress.
[Link: www.worldtribune.com...]

108 Egfrow  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:44:12am

Here is what I think did most of the damge on 782.

109 Alouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:44:44am

#100 Dirk Diggler

Mr. Fawaz mother and son were carried to safety by a saintly mountain gorilla named Coco.

Are you sure it wasn't Scuzzlebutt?

110 Geepers  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:45:21am

Dar ul Harb (#99),

Q: How many Israeli missiles does it take to change a light bulb?

LOL.

The media is becoming a joke.

111 Blackacre  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:45:34am

Was this magic rust?

Vinny Gambini: How could it take you five minutes to cook your grits when it takes the entire grit-eating world 20 minutes?
Mr. Tipton: Um... I'm a fast cook, I guess.
Vinny Gambini: What? I'm sorry I was over there. Did you just say you were a fast cook? Are we to believe that boiling water soaks into a grit faster in your kitchen than any place on the face of the earth?
Mr. Tipton: I don't know.
Vinny Gambini: Perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist on your stove. Were these magic grits? Did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?

112 Alouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:49:02am

#108 Egfrow

That's some fancy forensic Photoshopping!

113 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:49:10am

More blantant anti-Israeli propaganda from the "Big Conscience" lobby.

A decade to clear cluster bombs in Lebanon

Clearing unexploded cluster bombs used by Israel in Lebanon during the month-long war, many of them U.S.-manufactured, could take 10 years, a British-based demining group said on Friday.

Cue the maudlin violins.

114 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:49:45am
115 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:52:55am

Nobody cares that the GFDL brings a disaster of epic proportions to TJ and San Diego?

116 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:53:23am

#113 Dirk

Why, that's libel! How dare they imply cluster bombs we manufactured would have that many duds. We blow things up real good.

117 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:53:24am

#113 dirk diggler:

And none of those munitions would have been fired had Hizbullah not started this conflict.

Send all bills for damage to Iran care of Hizbullah and Nasrallah. /snark

118 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:54:40am

I can't believe a Dkos diary on this slipped past me....
Israeli attack on Red Cross Ambulance. Told you so!

At the time of the "Israeli missile attack on Red Cross Ambulance" flap, I wrote a diary that I had to delete. I was villified, troll-rated and generally beaten up for a "conspiracy theory."
...
ZombieTime lays the hoax out in terms that are, to me, undeniable. It is complete with photos of the ambulance. The photos are proven to be the ambulance in question and the logic seems unassailable.

From the Komments...

Zombietime is a barking moonbat (8+ / 0-)
He's a featured player at Little Green Footballs. Sorry to bust your bubble.


and

Funny (8+ / 0-)
Thank God someone thinks it is so fucking hilarious to kill civilians. You sure missed lot of fun in Haditha too?

119 Stuck in california  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:54:44am

ED, is John gonna keep heading north?

120 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:55:09am

O/T

Ahmadinejad Awards Medals to Iranian Nuclear Scientists

[Link: www.memri.org...]

121 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:55:15am

It should also be pointed out, as zombie's exposé does, our good friend Kathy Gannon of the Associated Press was among the first to report this story, just like she did "Qana 2", starring Salam "Green Helmet" Daher.

zombie writes:

July 24: Associated Press
The story went global when Kathy Gannon of the Associated Press included a description of the incident in a human interest story filed just a few hours later. The story ran in dozens of newspapers, including the Los Angeles Times. The AP version of the incident is much more elaborate than the initial report. Here is the relevant section:

...the Lebanese Red Cross suspended operations outside Tyre after Israeli jets blasted two ambulances with rockets, said Ali Deebe, a Red Cross spokesman in Tyre. In the incident Sunday, one Red Cross ambulance went south of Tyre to meet an ambulance and transfer the wounded to the hospital. "When we have wounded outside the city, we always used two ambulances," Deebe said. The rocket attack on the two vehicles wounded six ambulance workers and three civilians - an 11-year-old boy, an elderly woman and a man, Deebe said. "One of the rockets hit right in the middle of the big red cross that was painted on top of the ambulance," he said. "This is a clear violation of humanitarian law, of international law. We are neutral and we should not be targeted." Kassem Shalan, one of the ambulance workers, told AP Television News that nine people were injured. "We were transferring the wounded into our vehicle and something fell and I dropped to the floor," he said. Amateur video provided by an ambulance worker confirmed Deebe's account of damage to the vehicles, showing one large hole and several smaller ones in the roof of one ambulance and a large hole in the roof of the second. Both were destroyed.

122 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:55:31am

#108 Egfrow

I hadn't seen that photo from the Boston Globe before. That headliner damage looks.......uhh.......deliberately done. An explosion wouldn't do that.

123 Egfrow  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:56:39am

#112 Alouette,

Thankfully this I examined was made possible with a high res photo instead of the typical low res we get published on most news sites.

It proved to me that what ever made those holes in the roof had at least a uniform width and punch through point.

Kind of like a Rescue Fire Axe which would be found on many emergency vehicles and this includes many ambulannces. It has a 5-7 inch blade and a pick point on the other side.

124 sngnsgt  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:57:15am

Now, don't start trying to confuse them with facts.

125 Jimbob  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:59:01am

Has anyone noticed that the israeli bomb splattered deeply pitted rust into the metal of that van. That is unless this picture was taken months after the bombing and the van sat in detroit MI.

126 dane tomas  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:59:04am

Little Green Footballs
saturday, september 01, 2001

Post Title: 9/1/2001: round and round

Post:

I don't like to write about the Middle East. I don't even like to think about it. It's a dismaying quagmire of blind religious hatred and irrational Dark Ages thinking on all sides, impervious to logic or reason, perhaps the greatest imponderable stupidity in humankind's history. I give a slight moral advantage to the Israelis because at least they aren't exporting terrorism and the slaughter of innocents, as many of the Islamic countries in the area routinely do. They'll probably all kill themselves one day in a nuclear confrontation. (How's that for optimism?) I just hope they don't take the rest of the world down with them. This article in the New York Times is the latest example of the terminal sickness that afflicts the whole region: Palestinians Give U.N. Racism Talks a Mixed Message.

posted by charles at 7:41 AM PST

Replies: 2 comments

#1 liquidlady 9/2/2001 09:28PM PST
I wonder about racism. I think we hide behind it. It masks basic evil and fear of man. His desire to rule others be it his brother or wife. Race, religion, gender and economic class ..tidy packages to target and accuse. In many cases was it not African brothers (fighting families) that sold their own into slavery when the white man arrived? We are all guilty of destroying. Why this conference on racism. why not on the hatred of man. Racism is one branch out of this tree of fear. You still have the wicked tree growing no matter how you prune that branch.
It looks to be geting worse in the middle east. i can't figure out how arafat has stayed alive through it all. The hits seem to be getting closer to him and he is talking like a man who has to have the final word..there is a desperation I have not seen or heard in his other speeches.
#2 Jon 9/4/2001 07:35AM PST
liquidlady's comments remind me of a report on "slavery reparations" attempts, from 60 Minutes. Very tricky issues, with difficult solutions.

Its almost inconceivable how much the world has changed in five years. Its clear that Charles has changed nearly none, and almost completely. And wow!, two whole comments!

NBL all good Lizards and NBL to you Charles.

127 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:59:43am

#118 Killgore

Ah, the diarist made a fatal error in considering visual records and logic. He is looking at the message instead of attacking the messenger and missing the point like his cooler friends.

128 Egfrow  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 7:59:45am

#122 Earth2moonbat,

Your are correct. Explosions don't target headliners only and leave the cloth and fabric in the beds and chairs perfectly intact! not even a tear is visible at all.

129 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:00:08am
130 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:00:27am

#115 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades

We could use the rain in SD.

131 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:00:45am

#108 Egfrow

I think you're on to something with your fire ax theory. My initial gut reaction was a pickaxe. The fire ax makes a lot of sense, and fits a lot of different observables. Even dimples where no hole was made.

132 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:00:49am

#108, egfrow

"Heeeere's Johnny!"
--Jack Torrance, The Shining (1980)

133 Blackacre  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:01:35am

Dar ul Harb (#121):

Both were destroyed.

I guess it just depends on what the meaning of "destroyed" is.
/

134 Sergio  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:01:37am

Is accessory to mass murder Sandy "Pants" Berger now on the Cover-Up Committee of the Red Cross Board?

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

135 Egfrow  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:03:01am

#132 Dar ul Harb,

LOL!

136 DP111  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:03:08am

It must be clear to the ICRC that its credibility is at stake.

As the ambulance is the issue, why not allow it to be examined by weapons experts. Ofcourse, give that the ICRC has removed the picture from its website, it is likely that they have also ordered that ambulance 782 be crushed, or if not badly damaged by the Israeli missile, to be repaired and painted over. I hope for their sake, that they havnt taken the last two options.

137 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:03:24am

OT - Now we know who the friends of Israel are.

138 Dustoff-507  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:03:32am

What I would like to know. If it made that large hole n the roof. Where did it go after it hit the guys leg?
Should there not be a large hole in the floor?

Plus why doesn't the Red Cross have a group of experts look at the van.


We all know why they won't. )-:

139 grayp  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:04:19am

OT OT OT

Southwest Airlines found my husband's luggage - including the golf clubs.

In Tampa.

After I called and told them I was posting about it on every web site I could find.

heh.

The stuff will arrive later today.

140 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:06:05am

OT - Oh goody, Europe is coming through with 500 million to resupply Hamas.

141 Dustoff-507  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:06:33am

#130 Kragar

We could use the rain in SD.


But TJ would become a huge mess. And the good old USA would take care of it. )-:

Been there done that. I know TJ quite well.

142 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:06:44am

New 12Z GFS- John landfalls just South of Ensenada as a minimal tropical storm, then passes near Yuma as a dying depression

GFS says no rain in San Diego, with a sharp boundary of rain/no rain on I-8 near El Centro (where, IIRC, Fatal has been drunk), but rainfall amounts over 15 cm in Southern Arizona area, including Phoenix, most of that falling in just a 2 day period.

143 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:07:06am

Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Well ye haw and oy vey
The south SHALL rise again!
;~P


/Genesis 12:3

144 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:07:09am
August 31, 2006
New Video Coming From Ayman al-Zawahiri and American Al Qaeda (updated)
By Andrew Cochran

Rita Katz's SITE Institute and Laura Mansfield, each of whom we rely upon for reliable information on upcoming Al Qaeda videos, have seen an announcement by Al Qaeda's As-Sahab media arm of a forthcoming new video. The video is titled, "“Invitation to Islam” and includes Al Qaeda #2 Ayman al-Zawahiri and a man who appears to be "Azzam the American," a.k.a. Adam Gadahn. The banner announcing the video is posted on Laura's site. Al-Zawahiri's last video was released in early August.

Counterterrorism Blog experts have posted on "Azzam the American":

Evan Kohlmann, "MSNBC: 'American greases al-Qaida media machine'" and "American Al-Qaida Operative Surfaces Again in Bin Laden Video Release"

Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, "New al-Qaeda Tape Continues Appeasement


[Link: counterterrorismblog.org...]

145 BabbaZee  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:07:43am

139 grayp
mazel tov!

146 Egfrow  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:08:31am

#131 Earth2moonbat,

With the high resolution picture you can pretty accurately measure the holes. The vanishing point tool is very cool because you can compensate for distance, angle, and perspective, when using the clone tool. I coverd the roof tope with varying distances and varying copies and all the slits matched up pretty consistanty at any distance.

147 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:08:33am

#133 Balckacre

Maybe she meant both her allegations were destroyed. :-)

148 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:09:03am

I've been drunk in TJ.

149 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:10:25am

Egfrow -

Here's what's wrong with that theory:

The cuts are all in the middle of rusty spots. That means that either they were done long ago (which raises the question of why they would have done that back then), or the rust really did happen that quickly (which I don't believe, because you can't explain the paint peeling). Am I missing something?

150 beaner  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:10:32am

An RPG hit the little vent thingy on top of the truck. It exploded and ripped the vent right off.

152 Dustoff-507  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:12:28am

#148 Ed of many names

I've been drunk in TJ.


LOL, I bet you have ED.

So have I. (-:

153 Buck  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:12:43am

#66 Silhouette
It is not rust in one week, but two days.

The original story, with the rust showing in the picture was July 26th ( [Link: www.smh.com.au...] )

Published on the 26th (Australia time), mean the picture was taken sometime (at least 24 hours) before that.

The incident alegedly took place late in the evening July 23rd.

(Is it strange how the picture published online that day NOW has a create day of Sept 1st 2006.)

154 hornet  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:13:31am

Borrow one of those ambulances and have the IAF score a direct hit at the centre of the red cross to recreate the scene, then compare.

155 _remembertonyc  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:16:34am

Charles and Zombie:

We all owe you guys a debt of gratitude. You are far more heroic than you can possibly know.

RTC

156 Egfrow  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:17:47am

#149 Earth2moonbat,

Yes, This ambulance was stored in a parking lot full of other scrap vans. Look closer at the Boston Globe picture. Look at the debris on the ground. Then one other small detail.... Look at how the back hatch of the abulance is opened up. Now look at left frame of the picture.

Do you see another ambulance hatch open with the same type of bumper?

My theory is that this vehicle was decommisioned and stored in this lot with other broken ambulances. They just found another use for a piece of salvage scrap. Propaganda.

157 so.cal.swede  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:22:10am

Can someone please supply me with evidence that Israel actually removes warheads from missiles to avoid colateral damage?

Even Wikipedia is starting to claim that this is done, and i added a [citation needed] tag on the article for the Hellfire missile, because noone can show the money on this issue.

158 jack  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:22:33am
From the Red Cross Red Crescent web site

:

Red Cross Red Crescent: the power of humanity, is:
The willingness of Red Cross Red Crescent volunteer and staff to commit time and energy to create solutions and deliver services.


Our capacity to be an organized channel for those who recognise that when there is so much talk about human rights, there is also the need to accept a certain responsibility. Touching people with our ideas and persuading them that they too wish to make a commitment.

Our capacity to be a willing partner. Cooperating with organizations and people who share a common concern for those most in need, and who recognise the need to work together to achieving common solutions.

They are always trying to find common solutions but they forget that there is a need to accept a certain responsibility,

159 Alouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:25:30am

#158 jack

Our capacity to be a willing partner. Cooperating with organizations and people who share a common concern for those most in need, and who recognise the need to work together to achieving common solutions.

Unless the organization has a "Red Star of David" as its logo.

160 LthrNck  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:25:33am

In my experience as a 6521 Aviation Ordnance munitions technician, I can only think of one type of air launched ordnance that would have caused that type of minimum damage: The hydra-70 series folding fin aerial rocket equipped with an intert warhead. The hydra 70 series rocket is an un-guided munition approximately 2.75" in diameter. It is typically fired from helicopters using 7 or 19 round rocket launchers. The inert warhead is mainly used for training, it has the same weight, shape and aerodynamic characteristics as the HE warhead, but it does not have any explosive compound. And it is painted bright blue.

Now, the question to ask is, would any aircraft flying a combat mission have inert training rounds loaded? I would not assume this is standard practice, however, using inert ordnance would definitely minimize collateral damage. Somewhat like using guided concrete bombs to blast a building holding the enemy without damaging adjoining structures.

This leaves us with another caveat, the hydra-70 is an unguided rocket, it would take a remarkable amount of luck to hit a moving target with one. There was a program to create a guided version of this rocket called "APKWS, Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System". This would basically strap a laser seeker and control fins onto the warhead of a hydra 70 to enable precision targeting. For small targets, a precision guided 10lb warhead would be far more practical than the 35lb hellfire or even a 500lb JDAM. However, I don't think that the APKWS hardware is available for general use yet, only 80 guidance sections have been released for testing.

161 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:26:50am

148 Ed,

I've been drunk in TJ

But have you ever been bombed in Beruit?

162 realwest  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:27:18am

#139 grayp - Good for you! They should never have messed with your husband! LOL!

But, Tampa?! WTH?

163 Buck  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:27:41am

The alledged attack happened on July 23rd. On July 24th, one day AFTER the alledged attack took place, Nada Doumani, Middle East spokesperson for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said this:

On July 21, a first aid convoy of the ICRC reached the city of Tyre in southern Lebanon, following negotiations with the Israeli authorities in order to access the area. The convoy followed an agreed route and the trip lasted six hours although Tyre is only 70km south of Beirut. On July 23, part of the same convoy arrived to the city of Bint Jbeil in south Lebanon.

and this SHOCKER:

We are aware of an incident on July 13, when a Lebanese Red Cross (LRC) ambulance was hit and three volunteers injured in the South of Lebanon. No other incidents were recorded since.

SO she was not made aware of the incident. WHY? Could it be because it didn't happen?

164 Wild Olive Shoot  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:29:27am

The Red Cross should be called the Red Plus Sign. They abandoned the cross long ago.

165 Anat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:32:22am

#126 dane tomas

Thank you.

I agree it is quite amazing to see this pre 9/11 post and compare it to LGF subsequent development.

I hope Charles takes notice of your anniversary contribution.

166 Doss  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:32:36am

Google News has an article from a hip-hop website - BallerStatus.net - which features a loathsome, traitorous commentary titled, The Terrorist Papers: A Mountaineer Commentary.

I'm about to do something extremely controversial. It won't make me any new friends. It won't be pleasant to your eyes. But in this day and age, it is necessary, very necessary, to make this upcoming point. So, let's not waste time and just jump right into it:

Terrorism is Justified...

There I said it. Someone had to. Not universally, but in certain cases and circumstances. Why? Because it's a TACTIC, and nothing more.


I found this site via a Google News search for "red cross terrorism." A few minutes after reading this article, I did the same search on a second computer. The original search had featured a picture of the second plane hitting the World Trade Center - one of the towers had a fireball emanating from it, while the other smoked from its previous strike. When I did a search on the second computer, the article was still there, but the WTC photo was removed.

So, Google News will allow an article that says terrorism is justified against the military in the U.S., but won't allow a picture of the WTC attack next to it.

Legitimate questions: Why is BallerStatus even included as a news site? Why is this article supporting terrorism included? Why are pictures of the WTC attack not allowed?

I have screenshots of everything.

167 mike(in)savage  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:34:06am

From article linked in #44

While the interior of the ambulance has been gutted, a Red Cross volunteer who was in the same ambulance as Mr Fawaz said he did bleed onto his stretcher, but not excessively as his leg had been cauterised.

Then, a few paragraphs later...

When he came to after the blast, he remembers reaching for his glasses that were knocked to the back of his head, adjusting them and then feeling a sense of malaise. "I put my hand on my leg and I couldn't feel it," he said. "I tried to take the cord of the IV drip to tie up my leg to stop it bleeding, but I couldn't manage it."

So the bleeding he couldn't stop didn't leave any blood on the stretcher because he wasn't bleeding?

168 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:39:57am

Actually, when I clicked the link above for the google cache page, I did not get the image shown above. There is nothing between the picture of the big red cross and the picture of the kids.

Someone else please click the link to see if it is just me.

169 mike(in)savage  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:44:03am

#168

I get the same. The google cached page has changed.

170 Charles  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:46:41am

That's right, the Google cached page has changed.

And that's why I took the screenshot.

171 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:47:29am

#168 Silhouette

It's long since been removed from the google cache.

172 mj  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:49:03am

Jan Rangeland is by far away the most dangerous Jew-hater in the entire UN and certainly ranks up there with the worst of the Nazis.
He's the modern day Eichmann...a Jew-hating bureaucrat with the power to put his exterminationist dreams into reality.

173 mj  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:49:38am

Oops, wrong thread.

174 Charles  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:50:17am

Doss: I'm pretty sure the pictures are placed on Google News pages by an automated algorithm. It's possible that the change you saw was done deliberately, but it's also possible there was no human decision involved...

175 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 8:53:15am
176 Egfrow  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 9:00:57am

I noticed a few extra oddities. The driver's head light is not pointing straight. There is no front grill at all. No Red Cross Flag on 782 as all the others in the photo series have. The Siren is missing. There are no shrapnel holes in the headliner around vent to corolate with holes in the roof.

177 Doss  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 9:04:02am
Doss: I'm pretty sure the pictures are placed on Google News pages by an automated algorithm. It's possible that the change you saw was done deliberately, but it's also possible there was no human decision involved...


Charles - I assume that pics are put up by an algorithm, but I think it's unlikely that the pic being removed wasn't made by a human. A Google News search for "red cross terrorism" shows an accompanying pic for stories at least as old as the 200th search, showing that links don't lose an accompanying pic after a certain amount of time. The search two places above the BallerStatus link, one on Tamil terrorism, has a pic that was there when the BallerStatus had the WTC pic, and still has it there, now that the WTC pic is gone. I think a human removed it. Can't be sure, but it seems the much more likely scenario.

Amazing that Google News finds BallerStatus more newsworthy than LGF.

178 Egfrow  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 9:10:53am

I just made an update about the Magic Headliner in 782. Look halfway down.

179 EE  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 9:15:48am

In any court of law, it would be impermissible to destroy evidence. But in the court of public opinion, the ICRC coverup involves taking away the high resolution photo of the ambulance that was allegedly hit by an Israeli missile. Clearly they are trying to eliminate evidence that would incriminate those who made up the hoax.

Remember the missiing 18 minutes of the Nixon tapes, that helped to bring down a president? Well, here we have a missing high resolution photo of a hoax carried out by the Lebanon Red Cross, and covered up by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

This high resolution photo of the ambulance with the alleged missile strike is at the center of the controversy. And its removal from public inspection by the Internationl Committee of the Red Cross after the Zombie report referred to it is the removal of the most important evidence in this scandal. This removal should be known by the public, because it is as damning as the missing 18 minutes of the Nixon tapes.

This is no longer a hoax merely committed by Mr. Kassim Shaalan, who has gone on to embroider his story even more, telling about a premonition that this was going to happen, and describing a boom, a big fire, and then he was thrown backward, he says. The ambulance shows no signs of the stuff of Mr. Shaalan's tall tale. But more significantly, it now is the International Committee of the Red Cross that is the perpetrator of the coverup of this hoax, and so they are collaborators in this hoax, by their willful removal of the evidence of this hoax.

180 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 9:16:53am
181 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 9:22:05am
182 Mark 84  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 9:57:05am

Some comments on this fake ambulance attack story:

Zombietime's analysis very clearly shows that the driver was lying about what happened to him and that he played along with the charade (came up with it?) with his fake injuries. Zombietime also shows that the other "witnesses" stories are inconsistent to the point being contradictory. If these people were on the stand and revealed to be lying (or at least very unreliable) a rational jury would not believe anything else they said - the whole story collapses. So, lets look at the physical evidence.

The physical evidence is very fishy – especially to LGF visitors familiar with Pali. car swarms. We all know what happens to vehicle that the Israelis have struck: a barely recognizable smoldering heap of twisted metal. This vehicle was not directly struck by ordinance (missiles, rockets or artillery). Whatever caused the damage to the van – it was not caused by something that blew up inside the van. All holes show a puncture from the outside to the inside. The windshield is pushed downward – the roof is pushed downward and none of the vehicle panels are pushed outward. The damage to the doors and the interior is superficial and shows no signs of heat damage. Further, much of the damage to the van happened a long time ago (rusting portions damaged). The picture of the van with the glass and material on the ground in the red cross parking is probably the most telling evidence. If the picture is a shot of the site where the “attack” occurred then it could be that some sort of explosive struck the structure above the ambulance and exploded. The explosion could have caused the inward crushing damage to the roof of the ambulance and the shrapnel damage to the roof (note: the most severe shrapnel puncture damage occurred in the rear portion of the roof of the van – the portion that would have been most unprotected by the structure).

We do not know what explosive struck the structure. We do know that it was not a large explosive. Were it even the smallest of bombs (500lb) the structure and ambulance would have been destroyed and burned. So, it could have been either Israeli or Hezbollah small ordinance. We also know the real story was not juicy enough, thus the lying witnesses embellishing the story.

My guess is that that the structure was hit by stray Katyusha (sp?) or Israeli missile causing some damage to the rusted, disused and unoccupied (no evidence of blood inside – supposed driver obviously uninjured) ambulance. Since this happened in hizbollahland, an opportunistic minion saw this as a propaganda opportunity and the story was hastily cooked up and fed to a salivating and unquestioning media.

Question: where did it happen? If it happened at an IRC compound that might be enough to show that the IRC was complicit allowing a possibly fabricated story to be created and disseminated.

183 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 10:08:46am

#157 SocalSwede

Israel has a reputation for modifying weapons to do things in ways not previously thought of.

Taking out the warhead from hellfire would cut down on civilian casualites. The missile flies at 950 mph and weighs 100 lbs- the kinetic force of the missile is certain to destroy anything other than a tank or heavy armored vehicle.

The missile is not going to miss, it hits where the pilot points, if you don't want anyone other than the enemy in the car to die, the mod makes sense.

184 Mountain Soldier  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 10:10:28am

Tim Blair does a great job with his analysis of the two stories in the Australian paper. I don't know if anyone has said this yet or not, but I noticed one last little detail that didn't seem right.

All of the little holes around the big one in the center have their edges bent inwards. That means whatever force caused them originated on the outside of the ambulance. When a missile strikes a sheet of metal it obviously bends the hole inwards, but doesn't release shrapnel until the warhead explodes. If it was a dud missile or even one of those so-called "urban warheads" that Chulov writes about, the damage would have originated from underneath the roof, not on top of it.

The shrapnel holes would have been bent outward, if there was any roof left at all when the missile exploded.

Notice the size of the hole too. If anyone's ever shot a bullet through a piece of wood or metal, the entry hole is very small, only slightly larger than the actual butllet itself. If that is the entry hole of a missile, that missile must have been the size of a human or larger. Yet there is no evidence of any type of munition found? I choose to believe zombie, Mr. Chulov.

185 Earth2moonbat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 10:11:36am

#179 EE

Remember the missiing 18 minutes of the Nixon tapes, that helped to bring down a president? Well, here we have a missing high resolution photo of a hoax carried out by the Lebanon Red Cross, and covered up by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The difference being that the missing 18 minutes will forever be a mystery, wheras we have a copy of what they were trying to hide, and any internet-savvy person can see it in all of it's high-resolution glory. Imagine is the blogosphere had an mp3 of the 18 minutes in the '70s.....

186 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 10:15:33am

#102 wargamer

Israel flies apaches

187 sss111  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 10:27:03am

#20 transient


OT, Breaking: Jetliner accident in Iran kills up to 80.


I don't understand why they would be unhappy.

Isn't this what martyrdom is all about? Shouldn't the Iranians be dancing in the street, handing out sweets?

(note: I wonder if the Handing Out Sweets Shtick™ we keep hearing about is yet another staged bullshit acting job for western consumption. How many sweets can an Islmoafascist consume, anyway?)

188 Just_A_Grunt  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 10:30:59am

Psst, don't tell them that it looks like the footage of that Iranian submarine launch of a missle is recycled Chinese footage.

189 sss111  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 10:32:50am

179 EE

it now is the International Committee of the Red Cross that is the perpetrator of the coverup of this hoax, and so they are collaborators in this hoax, by their willful removal of the evidence of this hoax.

Pretty stupid of them, considering the image was snarfed by a lot of people and saved to their machines, and is easily available now.

Someone should post it with a whole lotta metadata and then signal the search engines of its existence.

190 hepcat  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 11:02:55am

#164 Wild Olive Shoot
The Red Cross should be called the Red Plus Sign. They abandoned the cross long ago.

Or perhaps the Red double-Cross.

191 dak  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 5:57:49pm

Where is reaganite when you need him?

I have seen the results of explosives, large and small.

There is something wrong with the pic. Obviously, it wasn't hit with a missile or any other sort of air-launched weapon. A 10 year-old can see that.

The ambulance would be toast, the damage would be in-depth as air-launched weapons are fuzed so they penetrate inside a target. Even an instanteneous fuze could not do this (given the speed of air-launched weapons it would still penetrate a ways). The smallest warhead that I know of is a bit over a pound, and those goes on rockets (which travel hella fast bubba). The shrapnel damage is all wrong and very small for that kinda warhead.

Rust. Whatever happened, rust take a while to happen. 'Specially in the desert.

There seems to be shrapnel damage though, but the pattern suggests that the explosion took place at some height above the ventilator, when it was installed.

Here's what I think: there was indeed damage done to this ambualance, a good while ago, by a small explosive charge.

I betcha some guy went on a rooftop and fired one of those RPGs right into that ventilator. Blew it almost clean off, the rest was ripped off manually. RPGs have a small shape charge, very small amount of explosives, and it would leave shrapnel in a annular pattern as the casing blows outwards.

The ventilator itself would be heavily damaged, having a shaped charge blow a hole narrow and deep into it.

Can any other lizard pipe in and tell me what they think about this theory?

192 dak  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:10:41pm

So:

Damage done long ago: the rust is proof, the smoothness of edges. I know automotive rust. I live in Cnada.

There was explosive damage to the ambualance: the shrapnel damage is unmistakable.

The explosion took place above the ambulance, perhaps some charge exploding on top of the fan

Whatever exploded was probably static or traveling very slow. Rockets travel well over Mach, by the way. Release speed for a bomb (which would have pulverized an ambulance ) is well over 500 knots. No air weapon did this.

I would estimate the charge to be below a kilo. Or therabouts. There was a casing, which did the shrapnel damage.

Maybe you would get that by blowing an anti tank mine on top of the ambualance: relatively small amount of shrapnel (this was not an anti-personel device), but the roof was squished down a bit.

The symmetry of the event leads me to believe it was not an RPG but a mine detonated on top. The lip on the flange being bent inwards suggest the explosive blew the fan right into the inside of the ambulance.

I just changed my mind. They just blew an anti tank mine on top of that ventilator and it blew inwards. A long time ago, Over a year.

193 dak  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:22:43pm

The damage to the bolt holes in the lip of the flange: They are all "ripped" towards the center of the hole: A force pushed the fan towards the inside of the ambulance. The fan fell into the ambulance.

This force was exerted directly perpendicular to the roof of the fan. Not at an angle. Unless the Zionist Jet was diving 90 degrees down and managed a clean hit right in the middle of the cross with a weapon having a zero terminal velocity and a warheard smaller than a kilo, I would conclude a device was placed on top of the ambulance and detonated.

I might add that a weight was also placed on top of the explosives, or the fan would not have been blown inwards.

Maybe they turned the ambulance upside down over the charge, it looks that crazy to me.

194 dak  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:29:24pm

A real IED forencic specialist needs to take a look at this. They may not know a lot about military hardware (although a lot are ex-military), but they are cracks at estimating yield and frag pattern and they will be able to tell ya which height this was detonated, what yield and the approximate shape and weight of the casing involved in making the shrapnel.

If you want to get serious about this, get an expert to look at this.

195 dak  Fri, Sep 1, 2006 6:40:02pm

Mind you, I think egfrow is right about the big gashes.

196 valachus  Sat, Sep 2, 2006 12:57:42am

Dak: I had the same idea, that a small explosive charge was placed on the roof and detonated. I think it was a concussion hand grenade (these have plastic, fiberglass or fiber-asphalt bodies) or a pipe bomb placed under the rim of the vent - where the explosion deformed the vent hole inwards. On the opposite side of the hole the vent hole margins are blown upwards, consistent with a vent that is blown up (heh, literally).
I also am almost certain that the van was also fired upon with an assault rifle, walked or stomped upon, and maybe shot at with a shotgun - check out this photo: [Link: www.smh.com.au...]
Waddayathink?


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