Or...How I learned to stop worrying and love Islam?

The Islamic Beast rides the Gramscian Whore directly into the Caliph Fate.

Abomination that causes desolation!

Disgusting!

Da'wa
Da'wa
Da'wa
BOOM!

There's got to be something more effective than emailing an "ombudsman".

Back in the bag, bitch!

Respect through oppression.

How Orwellian.

Turkish academic faces trial over headscarf article

An eminent 92-year-old Turkish archaeologist is to go on trial for inciting religious hatred, because she angered Islamist circles with a scientific paper saying that the use of headscarves by women dated back to pre-Islamic sexual rites.

Turkey bars 'Liberty' from textbook for bare breasts

Turkey's ministry of national education has censored a 7th grade schoolbook for carrying a reproduction of French painter Eugene Delacroix's renowned Liberty Leading the People because "Liberty's breasts are bare," newspapers reported Friday.

How Gramscian.

Yvonne is also amongst the speakers at today's Al Quds Day March in London. Alongside Dr Azzam Tammimi, George Galloway and Massoud Shadjareh.

#7 Fjordman
And that's what they sell as moderate, secular Turkey. The modern Arab State.
My ass.

Turqiyyahlopistan.

Women in the "RoP" are just as blind and brainwashed as the men. They think pushing them to murder/death/martyrdom=victory. It's only impoverished their children and their society...yeah...I'll take the society that doesn't stone adulterers over the one that does, thank you.

Look at the company she keeps.

#8 TotallySirius
Yes, it's how Orwell knew too. If Orwell were a crazy raging outraged spleen he would have said Gramsian Whores all the time too, LOL. But alas, he was a refined Brit.
;~P

THE MSM has been at its worst since they started calling arabs in israel PALESTINIANS and the ancient homelands of the jews the WEST BANK

I used to look at veiled women as quiet, oppressed creatures -- until I was captured by the Taliban.

sounds like stockholm syndrome to me.

Bag in the bag, I said, bitch, or out comes the wife be good stick!
Allah Akbar!
~Your Husband
Ka'ah'Boom AL Kilya

I suppose she'd look upon a nun as a poor oppressed creature, but for her the veil is liberating since it originated in a non-Western culture.

Just remember that all things Western are evil and all things muslim are good and you will understand people like her perfectly.

Poor deluded woman. I suppose she will enjoy being stoned to death someday.

Do the staff at the WAPO and other MSM propoganada outlets wish too see women here wear veils, do they want to die by rusty blade?

Deborah Howell is like any other MSM ``ombudsman'' Just another apologist for the MSM's bias. She has no power, no authority, and as shown with the NYT's Byron Calame, the journalists have so little respect for the ombuds they don't even return his phone calls.

The only effective way to change a newspaper's editorial policies is to do what LGF and other blogs are doing now, driving conservative and moderate readers away from newspapers by pointing out the facts they leave out. When the Washington Post's circulation keeps falling, liberal journos get more pink slips.

Woe unto the catatonic,
for theirs is a rude awakening.

Dear ombudsman,

Thank you so much on your paper's publishing How I Came to Love the Veil.

You, like I, and so many others in this great nation agree that woman need to be put in their place. And making them hide their faces is a good first step.

Hoping soon to not see you Deborah.

Sincerely,
Geepers

These whacko's . . .

How many ways can I scream?

All is well and good until a law is made about women (only women) covering their heads --then any women not covering their head is considered a prostitute and is stoned to death.

What was that article posted the other day --sexual oppression causes sexual abberation?

Piss on all veils. Are we going back to living in the dark ages? Send all those veiled women and wanna be veiled to the middle east where they belong.

This is AMERICA damn it, not camel dung countries!

#9 Little Bulldogs
I notice that march goes from Marble Arch to the American Embassy. No doubt about who they blame then.

I was just looking for a live web cam in the area. Looks like it's pouring with rain...good.

She described Shamil Basaev, the mastermind of the massacre of Russian school children at Beslan, as “a Shaheed,” or martyr.

A woman who idolizes a murderer of children; what more twisted example of Islamists' ideals can be found? Note to Rosseau: Not all savages are noble.

NYTimes ombudsman, Byron Calame come clean after 3 months.
NYTimes editor now admits:
We were wrong to blab

I remember hearing older women talking in the 70's how they didn't want Women's Liberation. The actually said they didn't want to be taken off their pedestals.

Sounds a lot like these women who want the veil --

I call them cowards.

Completely OT but Lizardoids will know the answer-

Why can I not send religious items to soldiers in the Mideast? My child came home with a list of suggested items for care packages, but religious items are expressly banned. She goes to a Catholic school, so it's not the school's idea.

Note to US Government: Next time we fight a war, no PC crap, okay? It only makes the war harder and no one gives you credit for it anyway. The people you are trying to appease still hate your guts.

Thank you
angst

Let me see if I have this right. The Taliban, who outlawed the education of women and girls, captured this woman, and agreed to let her go if she would read the Koran? Something is wrong with this story.

Ridley’s premise is that Islam respects women much more than the Western world.

Let's recap. Islam gives women the right to:

1) Live in a polygamist marraige.
2) Be beaten any time the husband deems nessesary.
3) Be forced to wear a potato sack even if they don't want to.
4) Be forced to have their genitals mutilated when they are kids.
5) Have their children coerced into blowing themselves up.
6) Be forced into marraiges that they don't want to be in, usually with much older men.

Yeah...I feel the respect.

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb the veil

Resistance to existance!

Hezbo "protestors:"

"Our struggle with Israel is a struggle with existence and not of borders."

The Washington Post, along with the rest of the dead tree fish wraps, is sinking faster than the Titanic. They are dying enterprises, and would be even if they were honest, upright, and non-biased. This is the inevitable consequence of progress in communications. The internet is replacing them as the medium for the dissemination of news, and even the most shortsighted among them know it.The amount of influance that Saudi petrodollars can buy should not be underestimated, or dismissed as hyperbolic fantasy.

Venality invariably leads to corruption. That this is precisely the reason that the WoPo publishes such filth in such a dishonest fashion would not surprise me in the least.

leftout:

Imam StrangeGlove Or: How I learned to Stop Worrying and love Islam...

#30 Lee Coller
Let me see if I have this right. The Taliban, who outlawed the education of women and girls, captured this woman, and agreed to let her go if she would read the Koran? Something is wrong with this story.

What's wrong with the story is she's a f*cking liar. She was a muslim sympathizer long before The Taliban got ahold of her. Hell she was married to a Muslim.

I just emailed The WaPost. (0900)

No cursing, but no punches pulled, either!

What on Earth is wrong with their better judgement?

the twisted psychology still has me screaming.

Is it all about boundries? Those that can't set their own internal boundries, need external boundries set by others?

The premise being: Men can't control their sexual desires. Therefore, women have to be as much removed from society as possible.

twisted into: any women who shows her face/hair/body will drive a man wild and therefore is a whore?

Removing any expectation of self-control from men and making it the responsibility of women?

did I get that right?

Speaking of the enemy media, NYTimes editor now admits: We were wrong to blab

Un. Freaking. Believable. The NYTimes ombudsman, Byron Calame, buried a bombshell mea culpa in his column today--reversing his prior defense of the Times' blabbermouth report on a once-secret terrorist banking data surveillance program and now admitting the paper was wrong to publish it:

Since the job of public editor requires me to probe and question the published work and wisdom of Times journalists, there’s a special responsibility for me to acknowledge my own flawed assessments.

My July 2 column strongly supported The Times’s decision to publish its June 23 article on a once-secret banking-data surveillance program. After pondering for several months, I have decided I was off base. There were reasons to publish the controversial article, but they were slightly outweighed by two factors to which I gave too little emphasis. While it’s a close call now, as it was then, I don’t think the article should have been published.

Well we're all being Captain Obvious on this thread and I'll follow suit but this is the one that really gets me. Females supporting islam and feminists at that.

Does this bitch not realise that the only reason she gets to say these things is because we have not yet succumbed to sharia law in UK.

Once we do as the other poster points out its 'back in the bag bitch or else'.

Once again my favourite line these idiots will be loudly declaring the superiority of islam as the stone age throwbacks feed them feet first in to the woodchipper.

How do you get to hate your own culture so much? Is it a virus?

Media wishful thinking, Part 47,689

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - If Democrats win control of the U.S. Congress in the November 7 election, it would turn the Capitol upside down and create a political nightmare for the already embattled
President George W. Bush.

If his Republicans lose the majority, Bush would hear newly empowered calls to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq and would suddenly face promised Democratic-led congressional investigations with subpoena power into the unpopular war.

Bush, whose public approval ratings are below 40 percent, would also face Democratic demands he offer "mainstream" rather than "right-wing" judicial nominees if he wants them confirmed.

Bush's fellow Republicans applied a rubber stamp to much of his conservative agenda the past six years, including tax cuts that went largely to the rich.

Polls show Democrats running ahead less than three weeks before the congressional election. If they win control of Congress from Bush's fellow Republicans, they would challenge Bush on fronts ranging from his warrantless domestic spying program to his energy and health-care policies.

"In some ways it would be a nightmare for Bush, but in other ways it could be an opportunity," said Norman Ornstein, a congressional scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.

Ornstein said Bush, who denounces Democrats as soft on terrorism, could move toward the political center and reach out to Democrats in his final two years in office to overhaul U.S. immigration laws and the
Social Security retirement program, two goals he has failed to accomplish.

#41 niallster

Its been said time and time again, Liberalism is a mental disorder.

#39 ggt

You got it right.

#36 BabbaZee 10/22/2006 09:03AM PDT

leftout:

Imam StrangeGlove Or: How I learned to Stop Worrying and love Islam...

The situation is in many ways analogous to the threat of annihilation by the Soviets during the cold war.

#13 NoSubmission

You need to warn people of nightmarish images before you let them click on a link.

Good God, what a gallery of ghouls. Is it a coincidence that your post is #13?

Arggh.

OT:

Charles you will probably want to watch for outcome if this poll Wednesday, although it is easy to predict:

News Advisory:

The Arab American Institute (AAI) will release results of its tracking poll of Arab American voters in the battleground states of Florida, Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania at a press briefing on Wed., Oct. 25, at 10 a.m.

Zogby International (ZI) conducted the poll of likely voters for AAI Oct. 6 - 10. ZI President and CEO John Zogby will join AAI President Dr. James Zogby to present results and analysis.

The tracking poll of 701 likely Arab American voters reveals:

-- what issues matter most to Arab Americans and how those issues shape their vote

-- how candidates in key races are polling with the Arab American demographic

-- Arab American attitudes toward Bush's performance, Congress and the overall direction of the country

Known as the uncourted voting bloc of the 2006 elections, the Arab American population in the four battleground states is estimated to be nearly 1.1 million (490,000 in Michigan, 255,000 in Florida, 185,000 in Ohio and 160,000 in Pennsylvania). AAI has been tracking the political leanings of this pivotal voting bloc since 1996.

WHO: Zogby International President and CEO John Zogby Arab American Institute President James Zogby

WHAT: Battleground tracking poll of Arab American likely voters in Florida, Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania

WHEN: Weds., Oct. 25 at 10 a.m.

WHERE: Capital Hilton - Massachusetts Room, 1001 16th Street NW, (corner of 16th and K Streets), Washington, DC 20036

CONTACT: Jenn Kauffman, 202-429-9210 or jkauffman@aaiusa.org

About the Arab American Institute

Just a reminder, it's never too late to stop immigration from non-democratic Islamic states, how long before our streets are burning like France's? Emphasis in article above is mine.

#41 niallster

SHE'S NOT A FEMINIST!

#25 bweep

I notice that march goes from Marble Arch to the American Embassy. No doubt about who they blame then.

None at all.

This is extremely interesting:

The U.S. Embassy in the United Kingdom said Oct. 20 that U.S. businesses in London could suffer collateral damage when the Islamic Human Rights commission holds its annual al-Quds Day march Oct. 22. London police expect between 300-500 demonstrators to march to the U.S. Embassy and arrive at approximately 1:00 p.m. local time. The demonstration is not expected to become violent, but the embassy cautioned that U.S. businesses may suffer some damage even though they are not specifically targeted.

As of yet there is no mention of the march on any news media. Yesterday a protest was organised by Stop the War Coalition and the Muslim Association of Britain which was supposed to attract thousands of people. That too has not been mentioned anywhere.

I had a nightmare earlier and in it I was walking down the street holding hands tent poles with a butt ugly burqa wench on our way to a george galloway speech held in nancy pelosi's toilet. It seemed so real!

Cabs passed me by at night, their "for hire" lights glowing. One cabbie, after dropping off a white passenger right in front of me, glared at me when I rapped on his window, then drove off. Another said, "Don't leave a bomb in the back seat" and asked, "Where's bin Laden hiding?"

We've been hearing a lot about cab driver's lately. Is this a new measure of discrimination?

#42 JammieWearingFool
Are you kidding me? An opinion piece by Thomas Ferraro that they have the gall to call news?

#39 ggt

twisted into: any women who shows her face/hair/body will drive a man wild and therefore is a whore?

Removing any expectation of self-control from men and making it the responsibility of women?

did I get that right?

Yup. That's why when a muslim woman gets raped, she gets punished...

Babba Zee is full of piss and vinegar today!

46 Bobblehead

#13 NoSubmission

You need to warn people of nightmarish images before you let them click on a link.

Sorry to all offended eyeballs. THat was hardly the worst of it. I was going to post a link to their photo section but thought better of it. Now that's nightmarish. And the videos? I won't even go there.

I do realize also that I have a propensity for landing on ironic numbers here... Did a 'Stan' post on 666 recently.

#10 BabbaZee: And that's what they sell as moderate, secular Turkey. The modern Arab State.

Turkey is not Arabic. It's Turkish, an ethnic group very different from Arabic roots. Turkish is more Asiatic than Arabic.

#45 leftout
I wish we had only to worry about that again, Those were the days!
LOL~

#56 the_flying_pig
Correct I should have written "Islamic"

Mandy and Chris --thanks.

There is a line from Star Trek TNG that pops into my head when I read articles like this one.

"If there's nothing wrong with me... maybe there's something wrong with the universe!" -- Dr. Crusher (Remember Me)

She probably likes the veil so much because she's a dog underneath. What utter crap.

#41 niallster 10/22/2006 09:08AM PDT

How do you get to hate your own culture so much? Is it a virus?

Good post niallster. I believe that part of the explaination can be found in Shelby Steele's analsis from his book White Guilt

What is white guilt? It is not a personal sense of remorse over past wrongs. White guilt is literally a vacuum of moral authority in matters of race, equality, and opportunity that comes from the association of mere white skin with America's historical racism. It is the stigmatization of whites and, more importantly, American institutions with the sin of racism. Under this stigma white individuals and American institutions must perpetually prove a negative--that they are not racist--to gain enough authority to function in matters of race, equality, and opportunity. If they fail to prove the negative, they will be seen as racists. Political correctness, diversity policies, and multiculturalism are forms of deference that give whites and institutions a way to prove the negative and win reprieve from the racist stigma.

-- Shelby Steele

Britain's expecting race riots because of bloody-minded intolerents like like Yvonne Ridley

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

The polarised debate over full-face veils could spark race riots in the UK, the head of the Commission for Racial Equality has warned.

Have a great day all! Stay out of the rain.

I can only imagine that Yvonne Ridley is so hideously ugly that she is tired of having people flinch at the sight of her unvailed face.

Why else would a supposedly educated western woman welcome invisibility and slavery?

Every last editorial, column, blog, etc. that I have read attempting to defend the veil cannot make its point without calling women who don't wear a bag over their heads whores:

What is more liberating: being judged on the length of your skirt and the size of your surgically enhanced breasts, or being judged on your character and intelligence?.

Pro-veil commentators always fall back on comparing pious, veil wearing, good Muslim women to suppossed Western whores wearing miniskirts and lipstick, making it very clear what this is really about: if you aren't a pious muslim woman, you are a whore.

Another intersting sentence:

In Islam, superiority is achieved through piety -- not beauty, wealth, power, position or sex.

Note the use of the word superiority. Over whom is Ridley trying to prove her superiority? The veil proves her piety and therefor her superiority over the non-pious -- those filthy naked kuffirs. This veil debate is not about freedom of religous expression. It is one more way for Islam to assert Muslim supremacy over the ignorant, insensitive dhimmi.

NOTE TO THE WASHINGTON POST

Stop the propaganda. You will NOT "normalize" the wearing of the veil for women in the United States of America.

TO: Ridley
RE: Okay...

...tell us how 'honor killing' respects women. Not to forget female 'circumcision'.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

#66 bitsy
Great post.

#55 NoSubmission

I applaud your courage.

P.S.
I hope you scrubbed your hard drive after visiting that site.

#29 angst

Completely OT but Lizardoids will know the answer-

Why can I not send religious items to soldiers in the Mideast? My child came home with a list of suggested items for care packages, but religious items are expressly banned. She goes to a Catholic school, so it's not the school's idea.

You can send religious items to a soldier in the ME if it is to a particular soldier that you know, to the best of my knowledge.

If this is one of those "gift packages" programs where the packages are distributed among various soldiers, then religious items would be banned so as not to cause offence by sending the wrong one.

You wouldn't want your nice Catholic boy to receive a Koran, a Jewish soldier might not be so happy with a New Testament...

A couple of those 'quiet, veiled creatures' Ridley speaks of..

such modesty.

#57 BabbaZee 10/22/2006 09:17AM PDT

#45 leftout
I wish we had only to worry about that again, Those were the days!
LOL~

Babbazee, I work with a Recent immigrant Russian Jew who is the same age as me. We both grew up under threat of nuclear annihilation during the cold war(she in the Soviet Union and I in America). It's the most strange thing, but we both agree that we preferred the cold war conflict to the current unholy alliance of leftists and Muslim cultural jihadists and the threat they pose to our Civilization.

here she is:

[Link: www.inminds.co.uk...]

Cinema BabbZee presents
a Spleeny Fellini Production:

BACK IN THE BAG, BITCH

Back home in London, I kept my word about studying Islam -- and was amazed by what I discovered. I'd been expecting Koran chapters on how to beat your wife and oppress your daughters; instead, I found passages promoting the liberation of women.

You have to ask yourself - where does the ignorance of the MSM end, and the promoting dhimmitude begin? This woman's statement is complete BS, and she knows it. If she was actually in Afghanistan as she claims, then she saw what is listed below first hand.

Here is the top 25 list of the things the Taliban did to supress women. The source is Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution.

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage.

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

It is clear to me that anyone who says that Islam in general and the Taliban in particular protects women's rights just isn't playing with a full deck.

TO: Charles Johnson, et al
RE: Another Aspect of Yvonne Ridley

She says she was 'converted' while 'captured'?

Interesting. Sounds like the Helsinki Syndrome to me. And, maybe a touch of 'structure' and 'discipline' being forced upon her made her appreciate the organization of Islam. There IS a strict heirarchy inside it. As opposed to what godless Westerners are used to. And I suspect she was VERY godless before her capture.

Let's give her parents a big round of applause for failing as teachers and mentors.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Can I seethe? Are my fellow Lizardoid allowed to seethe as well? Can the lizard streets riot and bomb and maim at will like the Muslim street is allowed to? Come on LLL-fucktards, asnwer me!

#28 ggt

I remember hearing older women talking in the 70's how they didn't want Women's Liberation. The actually said they didn't want to be taken off their pedestals.

Sounds a lot like these women who want the veil --

I call them cowards.

I think you are wrong about the motivation of older women in the 70's. They saw something that the younger generation did not see: that we might achieve "liberation" and "freedom" only to find ourselves in exactly the boat we are now in.

That generation was "free" to stay at home and care for their homes and their children. Our generation is "free" to hold a job - but we MUST hold a job. Those other commitments - the house, the meals, the kids, the ironing - to great extent are still performed primarily by women, even if they bring home more bacon that hubby.

In the early 80's I was asked to write an essay for a college class on why I wanted a husband or a wife. I wrote mine on why I wanted a wife to do the shopping, dishes, washing and get my shirts for work ironed at midnight. (I'm female)

Islam seems to attract extreme personalities. So if a woman can't seem to make it in Western life, so just swing the other way towards 7th century barbarism.

Yvonne,
check out this site:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen1.htm
This is what your "sisters" are enduring.

Yvonne Ridley get a clue! The nikab wasn't invented by some kindly imam so that some poor girl wouldn't feel discriminated against. The nikab was invented, along with gender segregation, forced marriages, female genital mutilation, and honor killings so that he could keep a handle on his 'wives' in his harem! Any women who wears the veil is advocating the enslavement of women.

Perhaps Mizz Ridley's next piece for the Wapo will be on the Joys and feelings of increased piety she has as a result of her clitorectomy? Perhaps a puff piece on how it has increased her affection for Islam and Mohammed?

I read this article in the Sunday WaPo sittting at the breakfast table. Thought I was gonna blow chunks - and that was without any context about this author.

I thought: how does Islam manage to get page after friekin' page of prime WaPo space every day? And to promote niqab wearing, of all things?

Then I read the article: the writer says the things feminists in the west are fighting for today, Islamic women already had 1,400 years ago.

In the Washington Post.

#73 leftout 10/22/2006 09:29AM PDT

#57 BabbaZee 10/22/2006 09:17AM PDT

#45 leftout
I wish we had only to worry about that again, Those were the days!
LOL~

Babbazee, I work with a Recent immigrant Russian Jew who is the same age as me. We both grew up under threat of nuclear annihilation during the cold war(she in the Soviet Union and I in America). It's the most strange thing, but we both agree that we preferred the cold war conflict to the current unholy alliance of leftists and Muslim cultural jihadists and the threat they pose to our Civilization.

Got to agree with you there. I have never felt as if my country, my culture and even my family were in near as much danger from the Cold War as we are today.

#39 ggt

the twisted psychology still has me screaming.

All them ancient cultures feared the power of the woman, maybe going back to when the patriarchy first defeated the primal matriarachy, if that old mythology class I once failed had any validity.

So Ms. Ridley turns herself into Earth Goddess by putting on a scarf. Groovy. And she gets to behead (sic) anyone who disagrees. Groovier.

"The Venus of Willendorf was found by the researcher Szombathy on 8/7/1908. It is made out of limestone and still has some signs of red pigmentation; it fits in the palm of a hand. It is one of the most obese representations of the Paleolithic statuary. She represents the Earth and its fertility and continuation of life, the Mother Goddess, the universal female principle even if it is in its most primitive conception. Women were recognized as the life-givers and sustainers. They were revered as priestesses. Upper Paleolithic female figures, such as this one are found from the Pyrenees mountains to Siberia, indicating that East and West were once united in honoring the Goddess. The vast majority (over 90%) of human images from 30,000 to 5,000 b.c. are female."

I hate when I eschew preview.
explaination should be explanation
and analsis should be analysis

#66 bitsy
A man walks into a room. casts his eye about at four women he's already negotiated and paid for the sexual rights to. Then he points to the one he's going to sleep with.

In the west, that is a whorehouse. In the Arab world, it's a family living room.

#75 BabbaZee

Babba..What can I say other than ..

One thumb up, way up!

Come on LLL-fucktards, asnwer me!

We seethe peacefully.

TO: Galloping Granny
RE: That 80s Class

"I wrote mine on why I wanted a wife to do the shopping, dishes, washing and get my shirts for work ironed at midnight. (I'm female)" -- Galloping Granny

What a jamoke.

Sounds like you opted into the liberation movement.

I do the shopping, dishes, and cooking. Although I don't wear clothes that require ironing. And I ENJOY it. Beats the c--- out of regular 9-to-5 work.

I'm a male.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[God is alive...and airborne-ranger qualified. And so am I.]

P.S. I'll take managing a household over freezing my a-- of or getting shot at ANY day.

Spleeny Fellini out.
Have a good day Lizardia.

ick ick ick. Soon after 9/11 the NYT published a similar glowing article about veil styles.

I am just getting so aggravated with the MSM stuffing this shit down our throats-- grrr!

I have given up on the daily rags and only read the Peoples Republic of Boston's Globe because it's local.

OT from The Globe [Link: www.boston.com...]

Life in Gaza sucks now that the israelis are gone.

anyone surprised ?

tfk

I don't always understand what you're saying, but when I do, I usually agree.

You mentioned Senator McCain. I'll give him his due for what he had to deal with at the Hanoi Hilton, but...

Unfortunately Mr. McCain isn't up for re-election this year. I met him years ago and thought he was a decent fella, but he has just gone looney in the last couple of years.

What the folks I know in AZ have to say about him should make him consider a career change.

NOT to president. Dog catcher, maybe.

#95 PISSED

I am just getting so aggravated with the MSM stuffing this shit down our throats-- grrr!

I have given up on the daily rags and only read the Peoples Republic of Boston's Globe because it's local.

OT from The Globe [Link: www.boston.co...]

Life in Gaza sucks now that the israelis are gone.

anyone surprised ?

No. I gave up reading Boston Pravda some time ago. Of course it doesn't matter because my local paper along with most of the rest of them in New England are owned by the same company that owns the Globe. A reporter I know informed me a couple of years back that the same company also opens the New York Times and the St. Petersburg Times.

Go figure.

# 38 carridine

What on Earth is wrong with their better judgement?

They don't have any

also from WaPo:

MORGANTOWN, W.Va. When dealing with a "disobedient wife," a Muslim man has a number of options. First, he should remind her of "the importance of following the instructions of the husband in Islam." If that doesn't work, he can "leave the wife's bed." Finally, he may "beat" her, though it must be without "hurting, breaking a bone, leaving blue or black marks on the body and avoiding hitting the face, at any cost."

Such appalling recommendations, drawn from the book "Woman in the Shade of Islam" by Saudi scholar Abdul Rahman al-Sheha, are inspired by as authoritative a source as any Muslim could hope to find: a literal reading of the 34th verse of the fourth chapter of the Koran, An-Nisa , or Women. "[A]nd (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them," reads one widely accepted translation.

Verse 4:34 retains a strong following, even among many who say that women must be treated as equals under Islam. Indeed, Muslim scholars and leaders have long been doing what I call "the 4:34 dance" -- they reject outright violence against women but accept a level of aggression that fits contemporary definitions of domestic violence.

Not long after I picked up the free Saudi book, Mahmoud Shalash, an imam from Lexington, Ky., stood at the pulpit of my mosque and offered marital advice to the 100 or so men sitting before him. He repeated the three-step plan, with "beat them" as his final suggestion. Upstairs, in the women's balcony, sat a Muslim friend who had recently left her husband, who she said had abused her; her spouse sat among the men in the main hall.

At the sermon's end, I approached Shalash. "This is America," I protested. "How can you tell men to beat their wives?"

"They should beat them lightly," he explained. "It's in the Koran."

Much of the problem is the 4:34 dance, which encourages this violence while producing interpretations that range from comical to shocking. A Muslim man in upstate New York, for instance, told his wife that the Koran allowed him to beat her with a "wet noodle." The host of a Saudi TV show displayed a pool cue as a disciplinary tool.

Modern debates over 4:34 inevitably hark back to a still widely used 1930 translation of the Koran by British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, who determined the verse to mean that, as a last resort, men can "scourge" their wives. A 1934 translation of the Koran, by Indian Muslim scholar A. Yusuf Ali, inserted a parenthetical qualifier: Men could "Beat them (lightly)."

By the 1970s, Saudi Arabia, with its ultra-traditionalist Wahhabi ideology, was providing the translations. Fueled by oil money, the kingdom sent its Korans to mosques and religious schools worldwide. A Koran available at my local mosque, published in 1985 by the Saudi government, adds yet another qualifier: "Beat them (lightly, if it is useful)."

New definition of a "moderate Muslim": he who beats his wife "lightly".

Entire column

Dennis Prager once had a college professor who believed that women in America are treated as bad if not worse than women in Saudi Arabia. The Lefties are living in a fog. Ever heard of honor killings, Lefties? A woman can be murderred by her father or other family member for so much as being seen with the "wrong" man to save face of the family from being disgraced. No access or right to any form of education. Sexual harrassment? That's okay, and I don't mean stupid remarks like "what color is your underwear?" I mean BLACKMAIL. Gender apartheid. Not allowed to wear make-up and would be beaten for it. I could go on, but the notion of women being treated better in the Islamic world than in the West is absurd.

Still that's the Left. No thought and just irrational emotions.

We should expect no political, moral, or philosophical consistency from leftists like Ridley.

They're overarching motivation is hatred for Western culture and a desire to ally themselves with any movement, politics, or revolution that is aimed at destroying the dominance of the West.

Again, redundantly, I would point to White guilt by Shelby Steele along with other works that talk about the Suicide of the West via leftists who feel compelled to side with victims and to fight to destroy "oppressors".

When seen in that light, the bizarre inconsistencies of the left, who cry crocodile tears about human and women's right yet adopt the veil, makes sense.
They are being consistent in their desire to destroy America and the West.

ok guys this needs to be said and nobodys saying it. I have seen mention before tho, in other places and so I shall repeat here...

These women are closet perverts.

There is a significant number of women who find a sexual attraction to being dominated utterly by a cruel, masterful man. Many of these same women have not the guts to live an alternative lifestyle with a "leather family" and just go ahead and be a submissive masochist.

So they marry into this kind of a lifestyle of submission.

They get the beatings, encumberance, and even the a distinctive black outfit, if she wants it. They have to do what they are told, are sexually humilliated.

Think about it.

Personally, I have a friend who has the guts to live in an "alternative lifestyle," in the American way. Not an easy choice. But shes an interesting person. She votes conservatively, and she knows that the Islamic facists would not spare her, even is she supported them. We have discussed this possible theory as to why a perfectly decent future as an american could be thrown away by a woman CHOOSING to "get in the bag."

This is the only rational explanation.

In the election for the 1994 congress the MSM was saying the same things as now,doom and gloom for repubs, the people will put the dems in power and everything will be fine. Not quite it seems.
On another note, The MSM during the viet nam war was more partisan toward the vc and nva than they are toward the muslims. I know, I know it's hard to believe. An image of the time is the buddhaist monks immolating them selves in protest of americian involvement in vietnam. They, much like the dhimmi left will be, were the first to die. Tried to tell em, would they listen? But nooo

Psychologically, In her own way, Mizz Yvonne Ridley, seems to be on par with the ladies who drowned their kids in a bathtub or rolled them into a lake strapped in their car seats. On second thought, she is worse. She is like a seeing eye dog trained to lead culturally blind people into a societal gas chamber. The WaPo provides her with a platform for the destruction of society and the furtherance of her ideas. Way to go WaPo!

I think I'm going into overload with all this. I'm not even going to have anyone attempt to explain to me why the veil/burka/sack is liberating to feminists when abortions will be so illegal under the caliphate. The only place for women under the caliphate will be under men and procreating as fast as possible. I thought western feminists lived for abortions, I thought it was the highest form of choice possible.

[Link: www.osamamovie.com...] have Ridley watch this movie.

Having been on both sides of the veil, I can tell you that most Western male politicians and journalists who lament the oppression of women in the Islamic world have no idea what they are talking about. They go on about veils, child brides, female circumcision, honor killings and forced marriages, and they wrongly blame Islam for all this -- their arrogance surpassed only by their ignorance.

These cultural issues and customs have nothing to do with Islam. A careful reading of the Koran shows that just about everything that Western feminists fought for in the 1970s was available to Muslim women 1,400 years ago. Women in Islam are considered equal to men in spirituality, education and worth, and a woman's gift for childbirth and child-rearing is regarded as a positive attribute.

Funny how she doesn't mention that the koran prescribes that a women's evidence is only equl to half a man's and that a rape victim needs 4 witnesses otherwise she will be guilty of adultery.

#102. I posted something similar last night. It's sad but I think you're right.

#69 lowandslow

Thanks.

Grrr. This veil thing has me so mad I am actually writing serious posts! If I can't make a joke you know I am pi$$ed.

And another thing! Without even opening up the rat's nest of whether or not the Koran condones wife-beating, if, by random chance, a pious member of the RoP goes a little over-board and fails to follow Mo's advice 'not to leave a mark' and breaks the nose and fattens the lip of his pious, nikab wearing wife, how is anyone ever going to be able to tell? Sure, spouse abuse is a problem that arises in every culture, but if a husband in Texas beats his wife to a bloody pulp, the neighbors are gonna notice.

How is a brutalized nikab wearing women ever going to get any help? From the other brutalized members of her family? Even if you make the PC assumption that Muslim women are no more likely to suffer abuse than any other segment of society, women wearing the veil are far less likely to get outside help!

Of course, all of that has nothing to do with why Muslim men are suddenly so keen on their 13 year old daughters wearing burkas to school in London. It is all about piety and religous freedom, you see.

Now be good little Dhimmis and drink that kool-aide. It's cherry flavored! Yummi!

Backward thinking, self-hating "feminists" of islam aside, you need to make sure wapo and others understand your views.

If you liked this article, continue to patronize wapo, nyt, and other terrorist and elitist shills.

If, like me, you were aghast at its open and failed attempt at dissimulation, then do as I do. Stop purchasing it, stop signing up with it, and inform any and all advertisers that you see within it exactly why you are no longer perusing it.

Wapo and NYT don't give any equine feces about what we think. They want to tell us what to think. Elitists all. They do care what their advertisers think. Especially if they depart, or threaten to do so. Sure, editorial integrity. They can print what they want. They have complete editorial control. Their advertisers can also exert their own control over which paper to be associated with, and whether or not the elitist hate-america-and-the-jooos-first crowd are where they should be spending their money.

I love this bit:

Some young Muslim feminists consider the hijab and the nikab political symbols, too, a way of rejecting Western excesses such as binge drinking, casual sex and drug use. What is more liberating: being judged on the length of your skirt and the size of your surgically enhanced breasts, or being judged on your character and intelligence? In Islam, superiority is achieved through piety -- not beauty, wealth, power, position or sex.

If that were true (which is laughable) then what are men doing/wearing to show they reject the "excesses" of drinking, casual sex and drug use. Islam doesn't require men to do anything for the sake of their religion except wash and pray 5 times a day. Put a bag on the men. Please.

I wonder if next she can tell us how driving, voting and going out in public without a man is over-rated.

I could barely read Ridley's article without my stomach turning.

But it is also true that in the West, men still believe that they are superior to women, despite protests to the contrary. They still receive better pay for equal work -- whether in the mailroom or the boardroom -- and women are still treated as sexualized commodities whose power and influence flow directly from their appearance.

She is obviously living on a planet named Clueless. Who is Nancy Pelosi? Hillary Clinton? Margaret Thatcher? Not that I even like the first two but highly respect the third and none of them would win any beauty awards. Perhaps Ridley is just plain jealous that she doesn't have the breadth of influence those women have.

As for how Muslim men are allowed to beat their wives -- it's simply not true.

Oh. I suppose it's still okay then for some ignorant, backwater, Imam to condemn a woman to be

my favourite bit had to be this:
"If a man does raise a finger against his wife, he is not allowed to leave a mark on her body, which is the Koran's way of saying, "Don't beat your wife, stupid."
But hey, covered up in black means no one can't see ANYTHING!

This woman is ranting mad. You should hear her on 'Zionists'. Disgusting that the Washington Post is even publishing her or not recognizing for the Islamist that she it!

Her
In the Sunday times a nice profile of Sweden's new integration and equality minister [Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...] "THE latest media darling of Scandinavian politics is not only black, beautiful and Muslim; she is also firmly against the wearing of the veil." and an article by someone who just became a British citizen [Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...] with a not too subtle message about the allegiance ceremony:
"As we were called upon to rise and say our oath of allegiance there was some confusion, as a girl in a hijab remained seated. She clearly couldn’t speak English and had no idea what was going on. Thankfully, the future Brit next to her yanked her to her feet and we resumed our promise to be faithful to Her Majesty. ...Whether the system holds the key to a multicultural Britain or not remains to be seen. I’m sure the Home Office is as vigilant as it can be but the system is obviously open to abuse. People can cheat at their exam, or lie on their forms. How else could a non-English speaker slip through the net and stand alongside me? It’s not a matter of race: those who cheat, or who don’t feel comfortable shaking hands with the person who hands them their citizenship, aren’t prepared to integrate. Those who don’t integrate shouldn’t be British." YUP!

Even the head of the Commission for Racial Equality has seen (what almost every Brit has seen for years) that things are getting out hand
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Contact the Washington Post and let them know what you think about this outrage.

Done. I wrote an email. Everybody, please take a few moments and do the same. Don't let the Washington Post think stuff like this goes unnoticed.

One more thought.

I won't be surprised to see more liberal feminists embracing Islam like some have embraced lesbianism. It isn't a matter of spirituality (or sexuality).

Rather, it is a matter of political power. All birthed from bitterness, resentment, and the raging need to seek revenge. Yep. Some feminists and radical Islam will get along like peas and carrots.

#75 BabbaZee -- very funny

I wrote WaPo. Disgusting.

Thank you WaPo! I am a male criminal in DC – always on the look for good ideas to improve at my craft. Thank you for introducing me to Mrs. Y. Ridley's thoughts and opinions. My take home: hiding my identity with a veil and perhaps even coverall burka. You should pray hard that you wouldn't be my next victim and good luck for the police to ever find me.

WaPo- the real equal opportunity newspaper.

#104 gymnast 10/22/2006 09:56AM PDT

She is like a seeing eye dog trained to lead culturally blind people into a societal gas chamber.

Woah, good analogy.

Yvonne Ridley's wiki:
It's bs that she converted to Islam only after being kidnapped by the Taliban. She'd have us believe that she was married to a terrorist before the capture, but wasn't a Muslim - yeah, right.

Ridley had one daughter, Daisy (born 1992), with her first husband, Daoud Zaaroura, who "was a PLO colonel when Ridley met him in Cyprus" [1]. The couple are now divorced. Her third husband was Ilan Roni Hermosh[2], to whom she was married until 1999.

She also worked for the media-wing of global jihad, al-Jazeera:

saw Yvonne Ridley employed by the Qatar based media organization Al Jazeera where, as a senior editor, she helped launch the English language version of their website, but soon after on November 12, 2003 she was fired because Al Jazeera found her "overly-vocal and argumentative style" was incompatible with the station’s programme [6] After her departure from Qatar, she published an article about her experiences there. She won her case for unfair dismissal against the channel, [7] but was asked to return in May 2006 when the station lodged an appeal against the Qatari court decision.

And, among her long list of supporting terrorists is her support for the terrorists who kidnapped and killed children in Beslan, Russia:

After the Chechen separatist leader Shamil Basayev (architect of the Moscow theater hostage crisis and Beslan school hostage crisis), Ridley wrote a column stating that Basayev had become a "shaheed", that is, a martyr whose place in Paradise is assured. She went on to refer to Basayev as leader of "an admirable struggle to bring independence to Chechnya". In response to objections that Basayev's actions killed many civilians, Ridley stated that he "resorted to targeting Russian civilians in the latter years of his struggle to try and bring the plight of the Chechen struggle to the wider world," and blamed the majority of civilian casualties on Russian troops sent in to rescue the hostages. [16] Ridley quoted a passage from an unpublished work, Book of a Mujahiddeen in memory of Basayev, "A Mujahid is looking closely into a child's eyes, for they are the ones that get to see the world without sorrows."

Short of finding someone who has actually sawed off someone's head or shot a child in the face, I don't know how the WaPo could have found a more loathsome person on the entire planet to give column space.

#116 It's really depressing. I consider myself a feminist, by the way, and don't understand why people think non-Western=saintly. Tent-wearing is a bizarre medieval custom.

#111 kay1212

"Muslim Feminists" had become my new favourite oxymoron. Better than Jumbo Shrimp and Democratic idea! On that note, the very title of this womans article "How I Came to Love the Veil" is very telling on its face. It has to mean she didn't like it at first. Here are some alternate titles she could have used: : "How I Came to Accept my Place", "How I Came to Love my Rapist", or how about this one, "How I Came to Love being Bagged". Muslim Feminist my ASS.

Ridley had one daughter, Daisy (born 1992), with her first husband, Daoud Zaaroura, who "was a PLO colonel when Ridley met him in Cyprus" [1]. The couple are now divorced. Her third husband was Ilan Roni Hermosh[2], to whom she was married until 1999.

Wow, 3 husbands and 3 divorces in 7 years- certainly a woman that even NOW could be proud of.

#121 piano gal

Okay. Tell me if I'm off here. My understanding of feminism is that women are to be treated no differently than men. Equality, right?

How is it that a woman who is supposedly as intelligent as Ridley, would go for a cultural act that would again distinguish a woman from a man? Any type of garb that "hides" a woman is doing just that - and for what reason? Suddenly Ridley's feminist beliefs are thrown out the window for a pseudo-piety?

Again - perplexed on this end.

I am not sure what is meant by "veil." Is a veil an umbrella term that could mean just a headscarf, or does it always mean the face covering plus the headscarf? Because the veil has got to go; it is definitely dehumanizing. To take away someone's face is to take away their essence, their being. It is also a security risk, obviously.

Having said that, I think that everyone should not make so much of the headscarf. I think this is the wrong battlefield and will lead us astray. Religious Jewish women also cover their hair with scarves, hats, or wigs. Some people make the same argument about us, that our head covering symbolizes our religious oppression -- as a religious woman who covers her hair, I don't feel this way at all. A scarf or hat is, to me, the equivalent of a wedding ring; it tells people that I'm married. I have no problem with Muslim women wearing a scarf and in fact, some of them are very pretty and colorful and look tidier and prettier than the ratty, umkempt hairstyles I see some women wearing.

I think it is important to make distinctions when we start attacking Islam, and restrict ourselves to things that are really bad, rather than things that are just a little quirky. Will we start requiring that Jewish Orthodox women remove their scarves and wigs? Will men need remove their yarmulkas or shtreimels or shabbos caftans? Some things just aren't important. Colorful scarves look like a nice accessory to me; groups of black hooded/veiled faceless creatures are frightening and freaky, and also present a security risk.

Okay, I am going to the gym to work off some of this anger before it gives me a head ache.

Final analysis: life is much better as a whore than a baghead. What would you rather do on a Saturday night? Sit at home and be pious in your burka OR slip on a miniskirt and get a beer while **ghasp** listening to music!

Burn in hellfire you filthy kufirs with your vile rock music!

That article is laughable. What is her point in quoting Pat Robertson? Is anything in his quote more than his personal opinion?
I'm so glad for her that she was able to convert to Islam. Hope for her sake she never wants to convert back to whatever it is she left, because that carries a death sentence.

#7 Fjordman

Fjordman..

'eg vil faar tak i deg.

Skrive meg, er du snill.

'eg vil stille deg et sporsmal.

...om du har lyst og tid.

Tusen Takk,

~Et Norsk Troll

Ridley’s premise is that Islam respects women much more than the Western world.

She is completely, utterly, dangerously full of shit.

#124 I can say nothing of Ridley's wacko "beliefs." Personally, I believe in women's control over their own lives. Most Muslim women apparently don't believe in this.

#125 No one is outlawing scarves. We just don't like symbols of oppression, especially one sex vs the other. I used to audit an orthodox Jewish temple in Seattle (their lender required an audit--I'm a CPA) and there was a little white curtained area where the women had to sit so they didn't distract the men. Am I against that? Yes.

As to the headcovering, both Jewish men and women cover their heads. That seems fair.

I'll agree with you that many people wear signs of their religion: crosses, Star of David, Mennonite and Amish caps, beards, dreadlocks. Fine. It's not for me but it's fine. But when a religion actively discriminates and claims the discrimination is vital to its teachings, I hate that. Saudi Arabia is one of the worst. And I think the US and Europe need to take a stand on what is allowed to happen to its citizens and that means all of its citizens; men, women and children. And covering up faces, not being allowed outside, being beaten, and fathered by polygamous men should NOT be allowed.

#125 American Jewess in Jerusalem

I am not sure what is meant by "veil." Is a veil an umbrella term that could mean just a headscarf, or does it always mean the face covering plus the headscarf? Because the veil has got to go; it is definitely dehumanizing. To take away someone's face is to take away their essence, their being. It is also a security risk, obviously.

I don't have any problem with a scarf type head covering on anybody. It was quite common when I was growing up for women to wear one tied around their heads when they went out in the cold. Older Polish immigrant women wore them pretty much all the time. I still wear one when I go into the kitchen to cook.

But the veil across the face, leaving just a tiny slit for the eyes? THAT is unacceptable. Without the facial clues to judge by, one simply cannot trust what is being said - as the judge from last night's thread pointed out.

It is also physically dangerous - cuts off the peripheral vision. Women wearing this are in danger just crossing the street - as our MSM themselves pointed out when discussing Afghanistan. To drive in one should be against the law. Probably is in those states that won't even let you hang something from the rearview.

I think that it is rather "funny" that the same MSM that was not long ago screaming about the bad things being done to women by the Taliban are now propagandizing for those same things to become the social norm here in the US.

"Two-and-a-half years after my capture, I converted to Islam,"

Delayed onset of Post Traumatic Stockholm Syndrome.

How I Came to Love the Veil (and hate freedom ) sounds like it could be the title of an S&M porn thingy ...

I'm off to write the ombudsman ..

#132 The tent freaks me out, period, whether there's room for the face or not. Do these women really think they are so tempting that if they let one sliver of flesh show, they will immediately be set upon by a pack of wolves? Seems a little presumptuous.

#29 angst

Not sure if you are still here, but in regards to your post:

Why can I not send religious items to soldiers in the Mideast? My child came home with a list of suggested items for care packages, but religious items are expressly banned. She goes to a Catholic school, so it's not the school's idea.

The reason is that the 'hosting countries' are Muslim, and will not allow any religious articles or literature into their country, unless it comes form a direct friend or family memebr of that one particular soldier. Even then, only enough items can be sent to them for their own personal use. In other words, I cannot send my son 5 Bibles, as he might (oh horrors) share them with his friends. He can only receive what is meant for him, by me. No group gifts of a religious nature.

Of course, that only applies to Christian/ Jewish items. It's perfectly Ok to send a bucket of korans.

Also off the list:

Pork products. If you send Jerky check the ingredients. No pork rinds.

No alcohol of any kind, even in candy.

No items that might be deemed even close to pornography (ie Victoria;s Secret catalog)

All these are terribly offensive to our hosts. :0

#95 PISSED

The BOSTON HERALD! ... the Globe is just for lining your bird cage with...
Left that Rag behind 15 years ago when I moved to PDX. Little did I know the Oregonian was going to take its place...
It remindes me of Amsterdam...The shit is everywhere...You just have to look out where you step!

"I snuck into Afghanistan, clad in a head-to-toe blue burqa..."

Curious ... do you suppose she was 'discovered and arrested' for daring to wear a BLUE burkah .. instead of deathly black? (If indeed she wasn't already a "revert" when she 'snuck into' Afghanistan to do the bidding of the Taliban .. not so far fetched when you consider what a world class masochist this person actually is).

#37 lowandslow

Really? That's interesting. Got a linky?

#120 Doss

Thanks for that info. A real 'Ho of the Caliphate.

#122 Truck Monkey

How about "Palestinian Intelligence"?

While I have serious issues with this on a number of fronts, conservatives (and I count myself as one) need to really perk up about the lesson that's being repeated quite a bit lately with this islam and veil situation.

Some of us *western* women have reached the point where the immodesty has just been pushed too far in the west. Look around you lately. Seriously.

I'm one of them. Fortunately for me, I had at least some traces of a *western* moral foundation that I turned to when I started to come to my own terms with the situation.

But many of us in the west don't have any trace of that foundation at this point. Heck, for many of us it's been two to three generations since anyone had any serious religious formation.

At the same time Islam is there saying "hey you don't have behave like a whore."

Heck, just the other day my husband and I were watching an old 70's flick with hookers and the hookers in that old flick were dressed more modestly than average young women today.

I had to spend days literally just trying to find retailers for clothing that isn't hippy hooker gear. And they are even pushing it in the little girls departments.

And some of us are sick of it or are becoming sick of it. Problem is many of us don't know where to look for WESTERN answers and in fact proselytizing that could help is frowned upon while Islam is *agressively* proselytizing its answers.

So rather than just sneering at this, I think conservatives need to perk up because this is CONSERVATIVE turf that is being lost.

I might thank the Post for publishing this essay because it gives those who don't know a thing about Islam a look into the hell we'll endure if Islam takes hold here. The only one Ridley is fooling about the meaning of the veil is herself.

#131

Kay, there are things in our religion that get interpreted different ways by different sects. There are definitely men who take advantage of any and everything that lends itself to abusive interpretation. I won't deny that. I have been in some synogogues (by the way, we don't refer to them as temples because we reserve that term for THE temples, which were destroyed by the Babylonians and the Romans, respectively) where the women's section definitely felt "oppressed" so I hear you there. Small boxed in rooms with no decent view of the bima or the Torah -- blech. There is nothing in Torah or halacha that requires that the separation be odious to the women.

However, don't paint all of Orthodoxy with such a wide brush. You need to be aware that in many Orthodox synogogues, the men's and women's sections are either equal in size, or equal in "pleasantness" and that the idea is NOT separating the women from the men so that the men won't get distracted, but rather, to separate both from the other so that neither is distracted from their prayers. This is not merely referring to a sexual distraction, by the way, but since most synogogue goers are family members, it helps husbands and wives not to get "distracted" by mundane family issues while they are trying to pray, something that may happen when a wife sits next to her husband in a non Orthodox syogogue and decides to chat with him (or him with her -- let's be fair) during those boring parts of the service. Be careful not to assume the worst, but instead, ask questions and try to get the other point of view.

I have never felt oppressed because I sit separately from my husband, and it has never occurred to me that I'm somehow an impurity that must be hidden from view. It is true that for some of our religious practices, a paradigm shift is required in order to understand; things are not always what they seem to Western eyes. My first marriage was secular and he was an "egalitarian" and supporter of feminism -- that was an emotionally abusive marriage, seriously, and he took advantage of me in every possible way. My current marriage is traditional and religious, but I feel deeply respected and revered by my husband, and yes, his equal in every way. To some extent, I DO understand what some Muslim women are saying (not this kook, though), however, Islam has a lot more explaining to do than does Orthodox Judaism. In particular, Modern Orthodoxy has made a concerted effort to do away with oppressive traditions which are not mandated by the Torah but are simply in place because somewhere along the way, people decided to behave that way.

I do think that we can all agree that wife beating, wife killing, child stealing from the wife during divorce, and hiding women in black burlap sacks is bad stuff and no paradigm shift (at least not one that could be considered healthy) is going to change the reality of that.

Dear Ms. Howell,

I think it's only fair to the readers of the Washington Post that you warn them what we are about to read is pornographic in nature. Ms. Ridley's propaganda piece for the Taliban et al, showed the disgusting mindset of a world class sadomasochist. Her words are not newsworthy; they belong in a Mosque or or in Playboy; alternatively, her column could appear in Journal of American Psychiatry as a fine example of Delayed Post Traumatic Stockholm Syndrome. In any case, this piece does not belong as a column in a major newspaper read by the general public. However, since bad judgment has already been employed and the dirty deed done, may I at least suggest a corrected headline? How I Came to Love the Veil and Hate Freedom.

Yours,

#141 KG

Yes, Yes, YES! So well put. Thank you, a million times, thank you.

I have wandered through the children's clothing sections of many stores and they are all full of sleezy crap that I would never let my daughter wear. I always think of that line in one of Bob Dylan's songs "fathers turning young daughters into whores."

I think that conservative Christians have found their niche on this issue, and Orthodox Jews have never lost it -- it is up to conservative minded secular people to draw up their own standards of modesty and start holding to them.

You know, nothing is ever just totally simple. Even though I believe in my heart that the origins of Islam are impure and evil, nonetheless, there are some positive aspects to the religious beliefs. I mentioned in another thread about the appeal of Muslim men to western women -- they are family oriented, want to marry you before expecting sex, and will pay off a woman's debts before marriage, and they don't drink and usually don't fool around. Okay, okay, so you run the risk of getting murdered in an honor killing, but that's the price you pay. :-) Seriously, we need to realize that our society has gotten so degenerate that some among us will be drawn to Islam because it seems good and clean, not knowing what evil lurks beneath the surface.

#75 BabbaZee

ROTFL!

With regard to the clothing dilemas, I have taught my daughter from a very young age about personal modesty which is very important. I also personally get discouraged when there are only two sizes of clothes at certain stores: Tent or Slut.

That being said: Thank God for H&M.

Writer Mom, what is H&M?

#143 I appreciate the dialogue and I'm sure we agree on almost everything.

Just a tiny thing regarding separating the men from the women so they won't talk: if I'm at a dinner party with my girlfriend on one side and my husband on the other side, guess who I'm talking to?

#149

Too funny, Kay! Yes, we chat it up in the women's section, but usually there are more serious minded religious women there who will "shush" us quite forcefully! :-)

#148 AJIN

It's a Swedish clothing store that just came to the US and Canada-great women's, men's and kids stuff and very affordable. Sort of like Zara, but faster turnover and better selection.

#149 kay1212

ROFL...Our husbands would be devastated!

As to the clothing issue, I agree wholeheartedly. When my daughter made the switch from public school to Christian school in 5th grade, I had the hardest time finding clothes for her that would meet the dress code.

1. No sleeveless
2. No shorts or short skirts
3. No rips or tears
4. No low-cut tops
5. No writing or slogans
6. Nothing abnormally tight / or baggy.

I couldn't find a thing! And this was in 1992!

#145 American Jewess in Jerusalem

Yep, dealing with the same thing here.

And I agree. None of us are always right and none of us are always wrong. And we need to pray for the grace of humility to recognize when an enemy may even have a lesson to teach us.

And as far as the backlash against the gross immodesty in the west at this point there is a lesson to be learned.

And it would be a darn shame if conservatives fail to seize the opportunity. Because we need to remember that problems also create opportunities. And there are women that ARE receptive (or are becoming receptive) to a specific conservative message but they aren't getting it from western conservatives.

So really the rotten shame here is that Islam is seizing the opportunity while western conservatives snooze at the wheel or even worse sneer at it.

I certainly support modesty. I understand women who choose to dress more conservatively and respect those who adhere to religious obedience such as Orthodox Jewish women and the Amish and the Mennonites. All express an intention to cover a woman's head according to their understanding of their sacred books.

But I see this as being different from what Ridley has done. Her choice to me is nothing more than a desire to slap Western civilization in the face. Or more specifically, to slap freedom in the face. She supports suicide bombers. Enough said.

Call me sinful and (gasp!) immoral, but I was perfectly happy with my premarital love life and enjoy wearing bathing suits! I guess I'm just going to hell, now, aren't I.

#154 KG

KG, this sounds like grist for an article. Are you a writer, by any chance? I think that a number of people might be ready to hear this message. I have a friend who said exactly what you said -- that maybe the Muslims are here to show us some areas in which we need to take a critical look at ourselves and improve. It is awful, in a way, to think that a group which embodies so much evil could actually have something over us. But as Bob says, "sometimes even Satan comes as a man of peace."

#155 American Gal

I certainly wasn't defending this woman, in any manner whatsoever! I just became interested in the general idea of the headscarf and religious modesty and how it is interpreted by non Muslims.

#156 piano gal

It's not too late for you -- repent! repent! :-)

Yawn. What else can we expect from the Washington Com-Post?

They also have a fawning article about Donk campaign leader Rahm Emanuel in today's edition. I found it via Drudge. There's no doubt whatsoever whose side those bastards, oops, "journalists," are on.

#156 piano gal

Heheheh...I'm sure we all have some tales to tell...

#155 American Gal

Exactly. This woman, no matter what hat she wears (no pun intended) is a wicked, evil terrorist sympathizer and enabler who condones the murder of innocents in the name of Allah.

That's all we need to know about her.

#160. LOL. You only live once... ;-)

#157 American Jewess in Jerusalem

Thanks, but it would likely be a bad idea giving me a soap box -- I have a serious ongoing wrath problem that I struggle largely ineffectively with. ;-P

But I agree the topic is being discussed *within* conservative religious circles.

Problem is the female who finally reaches her personal limit on how far it all can be pushed before reacting isn't in those circles.

It's a multifaceted problem, but to start I think conservative leaders need to find ways to reach out even while standing up for western standards.

For instance, veiling is perfectly legitimate in my book (I'm a traditional Catholic and wear a veil during prayer), but I strongly suspect the full face covering is a political statement at least in the west (and I suspect it is actually modern not traditional in the middle east). But a sneering reaction isn't going to win converts even if we're talking the full face version. Honestly looking at what is causing the distress (the gross immodesty) could win converts though. And they are converts the right should be winning.

I'm sure we all have some tales to tell...

I am as pure as the driven snow.

Just in case my mom's reading this.

#164 mamma winger

You have one son, right? Therfore-you have had sex once. Case closed ;)

#163 KG

Full face covering is the closest you can get to making women virtually disappear but still having them around to do "women's work". It's pretty sick stuff.

Dear Deborah Howell,

I find the decision to publish the confused thoughts of Yvonne Ridley to be worse than bad judgement on the part of The Washington Post.

The public display of one woman's identy crisis is sad enough. The identity crisis of a profession, print journalism, is still more sad in that you are chosing to fight irrelevency with sensationalism. Tragic, however, is the identity crisis of a segment of Western culture in which an argument for Sharia laced with modern buzzwords passes for feminism and free speech.

Stand by your paper if you like, but please do not wonder why more and more people feel that it is no longer trustworthy. And please do not wonder why many consider the mainstream media to be hostile to the moral and ethical tradition from which it was created.

[Tokyobk]

Tokyo, Japan

#158 American Jewess in Jerusalem

I didn't mean to imply you did. :-) I was simply trying to articulate the difference between what Yvonne Ridley has done and what other women who wear head coverings do.

My husband used to be involved with a conservative group of Christians who believed women should wear head coverings. We had many interesting discussions about it. For me, what is at issue is what I define as "submission of the heart." Within the Christian faith, many believe that a wife is to submit to her husband but yet a husband is to serve his wife. Both are to submit to one another, which amounts to placing one another's needs above their own.

Within submission, which is a beautiful concept, really, is the seed of surrender. Surrendering one's will to G-d is at the heart of this type of submission. It flows from a desire to abandon selfishness and embrace giving. This is the type of submission I pursue and greatly respect a woman who exemplifys it. A woman who walks in this type of submission is to me, the embodiement of a beautiful woman.

But I recognize a difference between this and what Yvonne Ridley is touting as a superior way to treat women. After re-reading her article, I was struck by how much the focus was on an anger toward anyone who didn't understand that Islam doesn't oppress women. In the vast scheme of things - who cares? I practice aspects of my faith that is not understood by someone outside of it. I assume the same happens for those who are Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist. Are other major religions so desperate to gain approval? Not by a long shot.

Christians learned their lesson from the Crusades. Trying to "force" anyone to convert is foolhardy but Islam is the one religion that seems to not get it. Their constant yammering of "supriority to the West" is tiresome and rings false. Within their desire for modesty lies a deceptively hidden bullet aimed toward freedom.

My hope is that we can discern such ploys and call them what they are: attacks on Western civilization.

They go on about veils, child brides, female circumcision, honor killings and forced marriages, and they wrongly blame Islam for all this -- their arrogance surpassed only by their ignorance.

These cultural issues and customs have nothing to do with Islam.

Really? Nothing to do with Islam, huh? Veils have nothing to do with Islam, so that's why you wear one now? Idiot woman.

Islam is the church AND the state and a "perfect, complete way of life." But it's NOT the culture as well? Such bullshit.

#166 WriterMom

I agree the full face veil is disturbing on a deeply primal level to my western eye. They convey either the elimination of personhood or a militancy depending on the style of the garment (those black stretch knit versions come across as more defiant/revolutionary than self-effacing to me for instance).

#163 KG-Just to be clear, the gross immodesty is not what is causing Muslims distress. Sure, they don't like it. But they don't like this either:
1--Dogs
2--Separation of church and state
3--Music
4--Women on juries
5--Pork
6--Images of religious leaders
7--Freedom of speech or any expression

Here's where I think we should go with the immodest dress: leave it alone and it will come back around. Styles change. The flapper went out, the thirties exhibited very conservative dress. The fifties were fun, the seventies were ripped, beaded and messy. The nineties were bare stomachs, the new fashion is long long tshirts or tops over leggings or jeans.

I have two sons in college. Neither one of them ever ever liked the girls who wore the skimpy clothes. We are not a religious family. They didn't like those girls because those girls were desperate. They preferred stylish girls who were confident, fashionable yet clothed. They still do. So if you tell your young daughters (and I admit I don't know what it's like to raise one) that they are not attracting cute young guys other than for a one night stand but are attracting dirty old pedophiles, then maybe they will get it. ?

#153 mama winger

As to the clothing issue, I agree wholeheartedly. When my daughter made the switch from public school to Christian school in 5th grade, I had the hardest time finding clothes for her that would meet the dress code.

1. No sleeveless
2. No shorts or short skirts
3. No rips or tears
4. No low-cut tops
5. No writing or slogans
6. Nothing abnormally tight / or baggy.

I couldn't find a thing! And this was in 1992!

It got worse, trust me. The year the kiddo was in first grade - ~5 years or so ago - the "little girls" clothes were so bad that I made her entire wardrobe. Thong underwear for 5 year olds. Stuff that my grown daughters wouldn't wear except possibly on a rare night out - one in the city. Hooker clothes for the most part, to be precise.

One little girl went into Macy's (think it was that one, one of the big NY stores) and complained to the head of the company, who then pulled the entire line.

I think that was the year my sister sent her a pair of black stretch pants that said "Feeling Lucky" across the behind. She loved them. We refused to allow her to wear them in public - and it was a battle royal. How do you explain to a 7 year old why she cannot wear a pair of pants that says "Feeling Lucky" across her behind in public? Eventually we simply disappeared them.

Things have gotten some better because mothers and even girls themselves revolted. Still not great though.

#171 kay1212

So if you tell your young daughters (and I admit I don't know what it's like to raise one) that they are not attracting cute young guys other than for a one night stand but are attracting dirty old pedophiles, then maybe they will get it. ?

A lot of this can be laid right straight on the doorstep of the same media companies that run the newpapers and TV stations we complain about. One of the biggest problems among under-13 girls these days is G-d help us all - anorexia and bulemia. Even down in the single digit age range.

These kids believe what they see on TV and in the mags put out for them - and the advertisers know it. Biggest marketing segment around, one with huge amounts of "disposable income."

If you have kids - especially girls, but boys too - one of the best websites around is one done by PBS Don't Buy It They turn the kids on to lots of the marketing tricks. (Let them try the hamburger photo shoot themselves!)

There is also a really good book out -
Made You Look: How Advertising Works and Why You Should Know, Graydon & Clark, 2003

#168 American Gal

I think that when we religious women start talking about submissive hearts in marriage, some people get a little freaked out. :-) But I agree with everything you've said. In the Talmud, a husband is commanded to love his wife more than himself and to honor her more than himself. I know that my own husband strives to live that principle. We simply do not have any serious conflicts and never have, and I believe that it is due in large part to our religious beliefs about the roles we are supposed to play and the attitudes we are supposed to have toward each other.

There is a book called The Surrendered Wife, (which just sounds horrible!) But it is actually excellent and I thought it was so great that I started passing it around to all my friends who were having marital problems. The content really has nothing to do with what the title seems to suggest. It's basically just a good book about the psychology of human relationships, and encourages women to look at the way they relate to their husbands. She is very clear that her book is NOT for women in an abusive relationship, so there is none of that nonsense that we sometimes find in religious circles about "submitting" to evil husbands. Key concepts were letting go, relinquishing the need to always control, "surrendering" to trusting your husband and your marriage and G-d. It is really a very lovely book.

As for this Ridley person, I would say to her: "methinks thou dost protest too much." The Muslims are SO defensive about their religion. All they really have to do to put everyone off their guard is to openly accept responsibility for the murder and mayhem being perpetrated by too many of their members, make promises to try to reign it in, and the west would simply roll over (I mean roll over even more than they already are). I'm actually glad that the Muslims aren't smart enough to do this. It means that we might still have a fighting chance of waking up our moonbats and sleeping idiots, so long as the Muslims keep on showing their true colors.

Galloping Granny, now that "feeling lucky" spread across the bottom of a small girl's stretch pants is just too much! Man, just when I thought I had seen it all. And thongs for 6 yr olds? Are you serious?

Have pedophiles taken over the fashion industry? It seems to me that there is a really great business opportunity here for anyone so inclined -- a line of modest and classy girls' clothing.

Just as westerners have a fetich for Chinese characters, Japanese women wear clothes and have bags with (often not quite correct) English and French writing on them.

Sometimes the writing is quite dirty.

I saw a girl wearing a shirt that said "milk me" accross her chest. Another had "easy in" stenciled on the back of her jeans.

Another thing I have noticed is slightly (if not overtly) SM inspired outfits even on quite "normal" looking women; handcuff belt buckles, visible garters, chains around boots.

I hope all that passes if/before I have a daughter.

Done.

To the WaPo ombudsman,

How did this slip through? Is the Post shilling for radical Islam, or lobbying for CAIR? I object to the blatant propaganda contained in this shameless defense of a woman who calls the murderers of Russian school children ' martyrs', and who in her own words embraces al Zarqawi.

Rather than pretending that this is an objective news piece, you should tell your readers just who this woman really is and what she stands for, and I don't mean her dress code.

#175,

Have pedophiles taken over the fashion industry?

You bet your four year-old's Juicy Couture designer jeans they have.
Makes me sick.

I agree our culture is way too imoral, immodest, etc., but thankfully we live in a free country where people are allowed to make those choices.

Women like Yvonne Ridley that go around promoting the veil doth protest too much. Their defense of islam is based upon nothing of substance and wholly upon hollow, wishful feeling. They ignore the brutality done to women, the beatings, the honor killings, the clitorectomies, the forced marriages.

This is a religion that has absolute power over women, and you'd think NOW would be out there protesting, but the operative word here is power. The left loves power, and Islam loves power.

They were made for each other.

These things don't suprize me anymore.

Vanilla Nut

UK- CAIR Muslim poster girl convert Yvonne Ridley lamented that suicide bombers were not getting the respect they deserved

It it surprising to hear from IslamOnline that she knew very little of Islam before her encounter with the Taliban. Don't they look in their own files? According to this earlier IslamOnline article she was married [for five years] to a Palestinian, Daud Zaarur a.k.a. Abul Hakam (also sometimes transcribed as Dawood Zaarora and Abu Al Hakam ), who is "a former military commander of the Palestinian Fatah movement in Lebanon."

Yvonne Ridley's pose as a simple Sunday School teacher who first met Islam as a naive journalist-adventurer surprised by the humanity of her captors is frankly incredible.

Former journalist and Muslim convert Yvonne Ridley agrees that Muslims ‘should stop helping police’

“I don’t think the Muslim community should communicate with the police any more until they start showing some respect to the community,” she said. “There are Muslim community leaders - largely self-appointed - who regularly hold meetings with the police. I’m afraid these leaders are confusing access to the top brass with influence. The reality is that they have neither. What we are witnessing now is the terrorisation of one community.”

#80 galloping granny

I think you are wrong about the motivation of older women in the 70's. They saw something that the younger generation did not see: that we might achieve "liberation" and "freedom" only to find ourselves in exactly the boat we are now in.

I don't feel compelled to work. Although I rather work than play bridge at the country club. I come from a family of educated and working women so much of what you are describing may not make sense to me.

The women I heard talking were a friend's mother and her friends. Women who couldn't screw a lite bulb in if their lives depended on it. They were scared to death of having to think, much less fend for themselves.

I run across a big difference in understanding with my friends who are 55+. My generation and younger have enjoyed the benefits of "women's liberation" as well as the pitfalls.

I feel I have more choices than my mother did. She got her Master's in Education because she didn't want to be a nurse. She had two choices, I had the world to choose from.

These cultural issues and customs have nothing to do with Islam.

A careful reading of the Koran shows that just about everything that Western feminists fought for in the 1970s was available to Muslim women 1,400 years ago.

This was published in the Washington Post? They've got to be kidding. They should get a well known feminist such as Gloria Steinem to either agree with this insane statement or offer a rebuttal.

I can certainly picture Gloria in a burqa, and no doubt she donned it right after being circumcised.

/sarc
/my mind is silly putty

#174 American Jewess in Jerusalem

Understood. I know submission isn't a hot topic for many ladies. :-)

I've heard about the book, The Surrendered Wife. I flipped through it and found it interesting. During my college years, I flirted with feminism but could not rectify it with my newfound Christian faith. I believe women are to be respected for their intellect and contributions: within society, their families, and their workplace.

What bothers me is how many Muslim women live in Western societies and expect said society to adhere to their own particular brand of Islam. I am being challenged on where to draw the line for expressions of faith. I'm not sure how you view this, but in my eyes - Western civilization is being taken hostage with the exception of those who have a clue. Islam sees no separation between 'church' and state and IMO, this is the crux of the problem.

A Western mind is so used to this separation. We pray at home and at church but not at the office. We read our spiritual books in private but rarely read them around others. If there is special clothing involved, it usually is worn within the confines of a group who shares those values.

The hypocrisy of the left drives me crazy. On one hand, Nativity scenes are banned on government property but yet the prisoners at Gitmo expect (and are given) prayer rugs and copies of the Koran. Who pays for these items? The taxpayer.

A Christian is criticized or mocked for wearing a cross (some are not allowed to wear one, period) but yet a Muslim woman is allowed to wear a hajib or head scarf. And a teacher who wears a full face mask is just utterly ridiculous. She is communicating information and information is relayed through a variety of means - verbally and non-verbally. Veils only obfuscate, not illuminate, which is what classrooms should do.

I'm going to scoot to dinner now. I made calzones and I'm famished!

Thanks, American Jewess in Jerusalem for your thoughtful reply. We are both blessed. :-)

181 DANEgerus
excellent post at your blog thanks for the link.

Interview with this Whore of the Caliphate

Former Malaysian PM Mahathir Mohammad's Interview on U.K.'s Islam [TV] Channel by Yvonne Ridley: We Should Quietly Undermine the U.S. by Refusing to Use its Currency; Britain is a 3rd-Rate Power & Blair is a Poodle; Nasrallah Fights the Same Way for Same Reason as Bin Laden

LINK

UK- CAIR Muslim poster girl convert Yvonne Ridley lamented that suicide bombers were not getting the respect they deserved

Yvonne Ridley Plans to Enter Politics

[Link: www.yvonneridley.net...]

From MindGone Ridley's site:

"The Taliban know I keep my word and now I am making the following pledges to you today as your elected MP."

Well, since the Taliban knows she keeps her word, and we all know how trustworthy they are...then she must be the right choice.

/sarcasm

#175 American Jewess in Jerusalem 10/22/2006 01:06PM PDT

Galloping Granny, now that "feeling lucky" spread across the bottom of a small girl's stretch pants is just too much! Man, just when I thought I had seen it all. And thongs for 6 yr olds? Are you serious?

Have pedophiles taken over the fashion industry? It seems to me that there is a really great business opportunity here for anyone so inclined -- a line of modest and classy girls' clothing.

I am dead serious - thong underwear for 6 year olds. And that really wasn't the worst of it. Chiffon, leopard print, cut down to here and up to there. Literally clothing for a whore - just smaller. We went to every store in the area, then went to the state capital, then went to Boston - same everywhere. Absolute trash that I would not be caught dead in, to say nothing of dress a child in. Most of it, BTW, copies of stuff from the Bratz Dolls (which my daughters call the hooker dolls - that is what they look like)

It was kind of sad actually. Some of the little girls in grade 1 had sparkly new clothes a la bratz and made quite some bit of fun of the girls who showed up mostly in last years stuff (nothing else to buy, about 2/3 of the girls) because they didn't have any "Bratz" stuff.

Pedophiles? Maybe. Probably. What I do not understand is the absolute lunacy of the buyers for the clothing stores - everything from WalMart to Bloomingdales that particular year. What ever possessed them? Did they think that Mothers - and more importantly FATHERS - would not notice? (You should have heard the Dads in one store - "over their dead body")

It has been toned down a bit from that particular year, but it is still pretty hard to find quality girls clothing that is both reasonably modest and reasonably "fashionable."

As an American man who's put up with way too much anti-man BS from American women, there are aspects of Islam that are comforting. 1) the way criminals are dealt with and 2) the way women behave.

If all the bitches in the world would behave themselves and dress modestly things would be a lot calmer.

And if all the men of the world would stop using deragotory terms to describe women, things would be much better.

#135 mama winger
I kind of suspected that might be the case- also galloping granny thought a Bible might offend the recipient of an anonymous care package. Although they might not like my taste in food items, either, in which case they are free to trade them away.

But, like I said, a war waged by PC standards only distracts us with irrrelevant noise- at best. At worst, it hampers morale and the ability to fight. It's not as if the US will get credit for it, anyway.

#182 ggt

#80 galloping granny

I think you are wrong about the motivation of older women in the 70's. They saw something that the younger generation did not see: that we might achieve "liberation" and "freedom" only to find ourselves in exactly the boat we are now in.

I don't feel compelled to work. Although I rather work than play bridge at the country club. I come from a family of educated and working women so much of what you are describing may not make sense to me.

I come from a family of educated and working women too. I did not work when my children were very small - at least not for a paycheck - but once they were of school age that changed. Today more than half of all American women work. Most of them work because they have to in order to meet the bills, pay the mortgage and so on. If you don't feel compelled, then you are one of the lucky ones. Even in the higher middle income brackets it can be a real sacrifice these days for a woman to stay home for a few years with the kids.

The women I heard talking were a friend's mother and her friends. Women who couldn't screw a lite bulb in if their lives depended on it. They were scared to death of having to think, much less fend for themselves.

Ahh - the spoiled princess types. I don't think they were scared of having to think or fend for themselves. That had simply been bred out of them. It simply wasn't done.

Back then it was exceedingly common to tell female students that they did not need to know math or science - and huge numbers never learned. The very first book a little girl learned to read from read "See Dick. See Dick run. See Spot. See Spot run. See Jane. See Jane see Dick and Spot run."

I cannot begin to tell you how many women I know just slightly older than I am who literally had no idea even how to read the family checkbook, to say nothing of balance it. Those women would never once have thought to do so - the man's job to take care of the money.

I run across a big difference in understanding with my friends who are 55+. My generation and younger have enjoyed the benefits of "women's liberation" as well as the pitfalls.

That is because it is well within our lifetimes that birth control was available only to married women (in some states only if you asked the doctor - he could not tell you first, even if you had 12 kids), job applications asked for your husband's name, SSN and place of employment, the day you married you lost all right to credit in your name - or even having your previous credit & income included in decisions...heck, in Louisiana women were still legally the property of their husbands when I was 20.

Much of what you take as perfectly normal we fought long and hard to achieve for you.

I feel I have more choices than my mother did. She got her Master's in Education because she didn't want to be a nurse. She had two choices, I had the world to choose from.

What you don't realize is how unusual your mother is to even have a Master's degree. Back then most women did not go to college at all. Huge numbers married the day after high school graduation, or very close to. Of those that did go to college, most were there specifically and entirely to meet a husband.

And yes, you could teach or you could nurse. Actually, if you were of a certain class you could teach. Nurses were considered more than a little bit "fast" - not quite nice, almost loose women.

Yes, you are very lucky.

#192 Sword of Beowulf

As an American man who's put up with way too much anti-man BS from American women, there are aspects of Islam that are comforting. 1) the way criminals are dealt with and 2) the way women behave.

If all the bitches in the world would behave themselves and dress modestly things would be a lot calmer.

You would perhaps feel more comfortable then in the Saudi kingdom. If this post is an example of the way you interact with American women, then you do not get enough anti-man BS from them.

My considered opinion is that what you are hearing from women is not anti-man, it is anti-YOU personally.

#194 angst
#135 mama winger
I kind of suspected that might be the case- also galloping granny thought a Bible might offend the recipient of an anonymous care package. Although they might not like my taste in food items, either, in which case they are free to trade them away.

You have a 90%+ chance of not offending 85%+ Christians*, 4% Jews*, send a Tenach/OT (Jewish Publication Society) in Engish and a new testament. Let the others trade them away. muck the fuslims.

*Newsweek poll. Betcha it's higher in the military, any takers?

.

#192 Sword of Beowulf

Were you being sarcastic or serious? If the latter, STFU! *oink oink*

The view that we are fed againand again is that the veil is the protest against the denigration of women, a kind of feminist statement, and is therefore to be respected. BS I say. It is a logical fallacy to see the veil as the opposite of revealing clothes. These two are not opposites, but are the two sides of precisly the same coin: attitudes that treat a woman as an object.

#194 angst

#135 mama winger
I kind of suspected that might be the case- also galloping granny thought a Bible might offend the recipient of an anonymous care package. Although they might not like my taste in food items, either, in which case they are free to trade them away.

But, like I said, a war waged by PC standards only distracts us with irrrelevant noise- at best. At worst, it hampers morale and the ability to fight. It's not as if the US will get credit for it, anyway.

I suspect that it is no problem at all to include food items that will not get traded around - though care packages are often shared.

Gum.
Lifesavers.
Any kind of cookie - but make sure that you do not send something that might melt or something that might turn to crumbs. Unless you are sending to your own soldier home-made is not allowed these days.

When I used to have people to send these out to, the guys always liked the little vienna sausages in a can (make sure you get all beef) and the wax-wrapped cheese (like Cabot cheddar. The wax-wrapped kind does not need to be refrigerated.)

One of our maple sugar farms here in VT sends every Vermonter serving overseas a bottle of maple syrup. Get the plastic kind.

Hot sauce is pretty popular for disguising the taste of the rations. They are better than they used to be but still get boring.

Canned fruit - any kind but peaches and fruit cocktail are usually the most popular. Get the kind you do not need a can opener to open.

This generation will probably enjoy Pop Tarts or those potato chips that come in a can. Both travel well.

If you are doing a box for one of our female soldiers they are always ecstatic to get bottles of decent shampoo and cream rinse.

At one point I saw a list of things people were requesting. Close to the top was sunscreen. Another was powder. There is one in a yellow metal can that is suitable for either sex. Dr. Bond's maybe?

New tooth brush

pens/pencils/writing paper

something to read. Humour & mysteries are usually pretty popular.

I'm sure mama can suggest things I might have forgotten.

I went to the wapo page, and looked to see who was blogging about it, and found the headline post from here at some place called [Link: www.blogofascists.com...]
guess wapo is too lame to bother linking back here when someone is blogging about it, and had to use a leftist hate site instead

How can any Muslim speak of modesty when Islamic heaven is a pimp's paradise, where fidelity and sexual prudence have no bearing on the moral conduct of men whatsoever, and where women are held up as puritanical virgins parading around naked, only to be degraded and defiled as sex objects for the carnal delights of the wandering Muslim male? This point needs to be brought up again and again, as it shoots the heart out of the lie that is Muslim hypocrisy. Its as much a lie as calling Islam "a religion of peace". I know its absurd, to even mention Islamic heaven in any context, but so is defending this oppression of women, masquerading as false modesty, then trying to insist this is how Islam is, and what it stands for. What sexual fidelity did Muhammad ever maintain? What is modest or exemplary about rape, pedophilia or adultury?

#195 galloping granny

Today more than half of all American women work. Most of them work because they have to in order to meet the bills, pay the mortgage and so on. If you don't feel compelled, then you are one of the lucky ones. Even in the higher middle income brackets it can be a real sacrifice these days for a woman to stay home for a few years with the kids.

How much of this is by choice? I would venture to say a vast, vast majority of it.

Do they really need that huge house they can't afford? Do they really need that 3rd vehicle, and a $30,000 one at that? Do they really need 5 TVs in their house? I could go on and on.

A sacrifice to stay home with the kids?

If you have a higher middle income as a family in America, there is NO WAY a woman can't afford to stay home with the kid. The question is, where are their priorities? For too many, it lies in "stuff".

#203 Junior

#195 galloping granny

Today more than half of all American women work. Most of them work because they have to in order to meet the bills, pay the mortgage and so on. If you don't feel compelled, then you are one of the lucky ones. Even in the higher middle income brackets it can be a real sacrifice these days for a woman to stay home for a few years with the kids.

How much of this is by choice? I would venture to say a vast, vast majority of it.

Do they really need that huge house they can't afford? Do they really need that 3rd vehicle, and a $30,000 one at that? Do they really need 5 TVs in their house? I could go on and on.

A sacrifice to stay home with the kids?

If you have a higher middle income as a family in America, there is NO WAY a woman can't afford to stay home with the kid. The question is, where are their priorities? For too many, it lies in "stuff".

I don't know where you live Junior, but I know where you don't live - for sure. My daughter bought a house here in New England not long ago. The first house she looked at was listed in the $130,00 range. It had no walls and no windows. Flooded out last year. Unless a miracle occurs or you are willing to drive more than an hour to work (our roads are not crowded, so I'm talking more than 50 miles) a "fixer upper" that you can actually live in while you fix it runs well over $200,000. A "starter home" is in the neighborhood of $300,000. Can't buy? A two bedroom apartment runs $1000 a month or more. About $1800 a month to rent a house - pay for all the utilities on top of that.

In our area day care is not available except during the hours of 7 am to 5 pm. The "cheapest" place around runs $150 a week. If you want someone to care for your child during other hours or on the weekends then you have to hire someone privately. There are no "baby sitters" here - just nannies.

Health insurance has gone over the moon in the last three years. My BIL is paying $100 a week for health insurance for his wife. If he had children on the policy it would be closer to $200 a week.

And this is NOT unusual, as the people in Massachusetts, anywhere near DC and a whole bunch of other places in the country can tell you.

Median family income in the US is ~$43,000. But remember, that is the midpoint income, not the "average."

Yes, many woman - perhaps most - work because they must, not because they prefer to.

Yeah, the Islamic cult o'death really honors women. Let's see now...

1) They must be hidden from view in all respects. After all, she is the property of her husband and her male relatives
2) No voting, no autonomy, no say in how things are done. No right to travel without her husband or male relative to escort her.
3) Must wear a black head tarpaulin and a body condom. How insane is this, especially in desert climates?
4) A woman's only function in this world is thus: sex slave, baby machine, cook & clean. Raise her children to puberty, when they begin THEIR disrespect of her.
5) Worth = half that of a man.

In my time in the ME, I've always wondered one thing about Muslim women in body condoms and head tarps, and their children: How do the kids recognize their mother and older female relatives in a public place? Is the mother's ululating like a dog whistle with its own tone that a kid can differentiate among the other hundred women in the town market? Always wondered about that...

Does the WaPo have as many gays in charge as the BBC? Gays flirting with Islamofascists are simply suicidal.

(With AIDS an epidemic, perhaps that fits with the character type.)

Here is my email...

Holy $%^ !
Are you kidding me?

Yvonne Ridley now writes for your paper?
Well, you have completely lost any RESPECT I have for you folks and will be looking elsewhere for my news in the future.

DR

#204 galloping granny

I don't know your family's specific situation and I will not judge nor directly address them, but in general my point and opinion remains.

I make about 43k a year, my wife stays home with our 5 month old, our rent is $950 a month + additional bills, we have hefty medical bills because we had our child without health insurace (in northern Virginia, DC suburb), and we still have more than enough left over at the end of the month for all the necessities of life.

We own a clunker of a vehicle, sliced up our credit cards, have a budget where only cash is used, and stick to it.

Like I said, priorities.

And, I have a solution to cost of living; move. We used to live in a DC suburb but we made the decision to move to another state after our child was born for that very reason. We left friends and family behind.

Seriously, I mean no disrespect nor am I claiming we have done everything right (heck, we had a child without health insurance!) but we are trying to rectify the situation without excuses.

In general, we are a society of excuses and the blame game. Frankly, I'm sick of it.

Yes, many woman - perhaps most - work because they must, not because they prefer to.

From my experiences, I just disagree. When living in northern Virginia, I can't even tell you how many people had their kids in daycare while both parents worked 60 hours a week, yet owned a $700,000 home, a BMW and an SUV, had the newest and latest flat screen TV, and tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. Is all that necessary? Just imagine the freedom a family would feel if they just moved from that area, had one parent working making even just a third or a half of what they were and living within their means. Freedom.

If people made correct choices in life, or even took responsibility for bad ones and began rectifying their situation, they wouldn't be in such a situation and the mom could stay home.

Again, speaking from my own experiences.

I'm one to think that a required course in high school should be financial responsibility (and stress NO credit cards). Maybe they should start those classes and get rid of the condom on the cucumber ones.

Respectfully,
Fellow Loveable Lizard

#192 - ya need to get a life, friend...

With all due respect to the religious conservatives on this board, I have no interest in "submission," "surrender," "obedience" or, for that matter, others' opinions of my personal choices in dress. In my mind, the attitude that "women need to behave themselves and cover their bodies so that men won't be tempted" leads right to religious fanaticism.

Piano gal, I don't know why, in your response, you felt you had to lump all of us conservatives in with the nasty guy at #192. I was having a conversation with American Gal in which we talked about our religious beliefs and marriage -- nowhere did either of us tell you what you should believe, how you should conduct your marriage, or how you should live or even dress. I have no idea how you dress and frankly, I'm not interested (really). I also have no interest in converting everyone to religion, and if you know anything at all about Judaism, you know that we never try to do that. My comment to you earlier about "repent!" was CLEARLY a fun spirited JOKE. Did you take that seriously? (It may further shock you to learn that I wear a swimsuit too and even go to the beach.) Most of the discussion on this board about clothing pertained to female children. Lastly, for us, modesty in dress is not "so that the men won't be tempted," which puts a total male domination spin on the subject, but rather so that girls and women will respect themselves and see themselves in other capacities than as a sexual object for men. I'd think that any good feminist could get behind that one.

I just wrote the WaPo ombudsman to let her know how disgusted I was over the Ridley article.

Now I'll call the circulation department and cancel my subscription. It was for Sunday's only, but only for the coupons and the weekly TV section. I always trashed the rest of it unread and then got to my real newspaper, the Washington Times.

#211, no offense towards you was intended. I know you were joking about the "repent" thing. And I do agree with you that the sexualization of children is a disgusting thing.

But I don't see why women should be respected any more, or any less, for what they wear. Too often, a sort of punitive, judgmental attitude is applied towards women. A "sexual object for a man?" Again, this implies that men are small children, incapable of handling their desires and their emotions.

Galloping Granny et al - on the topic of clothes for little girls-

I have a size 6 pre-K girl that I just finished fall shopping for. I found cute, appropriate, well-made and well-priced clothes at several stores. Here's the rundown:

J.C. Penney's "Arizona" collection had cute jeans that held up to some serious abuse last year. The waist on their jeans sits where it is supposed to. They had cute long-sleeved T-shirts with flowers, kitties and one with a little Rudolph-looking deer that my daughter had to have. The T-'s have not washed that well, but the jeans are great - stylish but modest.

Macy's has a cute collection of knits and track suits at Macy's ($9 per piece, on sale). My daughter is taking dance, yoga and a sportsmanship class in the afternoons, so the modest, stretchy track suits (plain pink, plain blue, and plain green) are perfect.

If you can't find good jeans, try your local western wear store. In Texas, western wear is still appropriate. Several little boys in the class wear indestructible $10 Wrangler jeans 5 days a week.

I have not seen thongs in my daughter's size; we are still buying the Hanes for Girls "My Little Pony" and "Disney Princess" briefs that come in the 3 or 6 pack. But it would not surprise me.

It is the mothers of these children's fault: if mothers who were not intent on dressing their daughters just like themselves did not buy this crap, the retailers wouldn't sell it. If all the Penney's are selling the appropriate clothes that I found, then there is a reason Penney's is making as much money as they are.

#192 Sword of B.

"If all the bitches in the world would behave themselves and dress modestly things would be a lot calmer."

Last time I looked bitches didn't wear clothing -- in fact male dogs don't either .. unless you're referring to those really tiny kind of female dogs .. which, in my opinion aren't really dogs anyway .. At any rate what exactly is your gripe about tiny female dogs dressing immodestly? Are you sexually attracted to dogs .. or what?

Don't act on that Sword .. it's criminal.