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Arabs See American Weakness, Defeat

Thu, Dec 7, 2006 at 7:42:37 am PST

No surprises here; the Arab world sees the Iraq Study Group report as more evidence that America is exactly how Osama bin Laden described us: a paper tiger. Arabs say report shows Bush’s failure.

CAIRO, Egypt - Many Arabs on Thursday interpreted an American advisory panel’s bleak assessment of President Bush’s Iraq policies as proof of Washington’s failure in the Middle East.

But others worried about the consequences if the U.S. follows the Iraq Study Group’s suggestions, warning that the report could fuel insurgents and others vying to fill Iraq’s security vacuum.

“This report is a recognition of the limitation of American power,” said Abdel Moneim Said, head of Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic studies in Cairo. “In the short term, America will highly suffer the loss of its reputation and credibility in the region.” ...

Mustafa Bakri, an outspoken critic of the U.S. and editor of the Egyptian tabloid Al-Osboa, told a state-run television show that the report indicated “the end of America.”

Bakri, who supports Syrian President Bashar Assad and the former regime of Saddam Hussein, urged Arab countries to “capture the moment as America now is in its weakest period.”

The Iraq Study Group’s report was the top headline in many Arab newspapers on Thursday, including the Egyptian opposition daily Al-Wafd, which declared: “Bush confesses defeat in Iraq.” The paper’s editor-in-chief, Anwar el-Hawari, predicted that at the very least, the Middle East will not hear from Bush for the coming 24 months.

“Practically, this means that this is the real end of Bush rule, his policies and the neo-conservative groups. This also means that the coming two years left in his term will be a period of a political vacuum,” he wrote.

Joseph Samaha, editor-in-chief of Lebanese opposition daily Al-Akhbar, said that, even before the study group’s report found shortcomings in the Bush administration’s Iraq policy, Arabs had already concluded that Iraq had turned into a “holocaust for American claims.”

But others warned that insurgents and countries including Iran were taking advantage of Bush’s failures and the spiraling violence, and their influence would increase if the U.S. leaves. “Al-Qaida must smell victory, but its a negative victory that comes from the defeat of America in Iraq,” Said of the Al-Ahram center said.

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297 comments

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1 CowardKerry  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:43:39am

odd about all the planes going down eh?

2 CowardKerry  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:44:27am

Oops wrong topic.........First anyway.

3 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:44:55am

The liberals finally got their self-fufilling prophesy that they've been working on for so long.

4 _remembertonyc  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:44:57am

this is what the opponents of the war will NEVER understand ... they have no concept of how our enemies perceive any "backing off" in the fight

5 FredLee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:46:40am

The New York Post front page picture about the Iraq Study Report says it all: Surrender Monkeys!

6 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:46:59am

And they get to watch his dad cry like an incontinent French mime over and over and over again on their websites too.

[spits, goes to lay down]

7 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:47:19am
Arabs had already concluded that Iraq had turned into a “holocaust for American claims.”

Ah, so they DO believe in the Holocaust.

Keep runnin' your mouths, islamists.

8 Reluctant Democrat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:47:49am

#3 Amen to that.

And I would only change “the end of America” to the "end of the idea of America." It will take the left a little longer to actually destroy America physically.

9 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:47:59am
Many Arabs on Thursday interpreted an American advisory panel’s bleak assessment of President Bush’s Iraq policies as proof of Washington’s failure in the Middle East.

That was a bold venture into the obvious.

10 FreakyBoy  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:48:54am
America will highly suffer the loss of its reputation and credibility in the region.”

As if "Death to America" could get any worse.

11 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:49:27am

Jim Baker and Dhimmi Carter must feel proud

12 mike(in)savage  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:49:33am

Naturally, the Baker group anticipated this reaction.

Right?

13 Yank in the EU  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:49:42am

Have you seen the cover of the NY Post?

"Surrender Monkeys (Hamilton and Baker's faces on monkeys)- Iraq Panel Urges U.S.to Give UP"

14 hazzyday  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:49:49am

Nothing like empowering your enemies.

15 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:50:12am

4 _remembertonyc

this is what the opponents of the war will NEVER understand ... they have no concept of how our enemies perceive any "backing off" in the fight

No, I think they understand it perfectly.

16 Maximu§  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:50:13am

Iraq is not an American failure, its an Arab failure. For all our mistakes, the Iraqi's and the Arab world had a slim chance to join the race of mankind, but they went back to their old habits.

Their dancing in the streets now, but this is a bigger disaster than they could ever comprehend.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

17 SaneInMN  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:50:18am
Mustafa Bakri, an outspoken critic of the U.S. and editor of the Egyptian tabloid Al-Osboa, told a state-run television show that the report indicated “the end of America.”

Bakri, who supports Syrian President Bashar Assad and the former regime of Saddam Hussein, urged Arab countries to “capture the moment as America now is in its weakest period.”


I doubt this is our weakest period, but even if thats true, filth maggots like Bakri have been crawling around a festering country that has been experiencing its "weakest moment" since it submitted to Roman conquest.

18 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:50:23am
#12 mike(in)savage 12/7/2006 07:49AM PST

Naturally, the Baker group anticipated this reaction.

Right?


I sure did

19 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:50:34am

#3 Earth2moonbat
Behold, verily I have said unta youse incessantly that the Islamic Beast will ride the Gramscian Whore straight into the abomination that causes desolation!

~ Outraged Spleen of Zion, posting from deep within Jacob's Well, because there is no prayer room for me at the airport
20 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:50:50am

Ok, George. It's time to knock some dicks into the dirt.

21 Yank in the EU  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:51:16am

#5 FredLee

Ah, voila.

22 mj  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:51:42am

OT

Shimon Peres- ready to join the NRA?

" Weapons do not fire themselves, people fire them."

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

23 sngnsgt  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:52:50am

#5 FredLee

Here's the story. The LLL's cut and run plan is now available at a book store near you.

24 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:52:56am

#16 Maximus:

Iraq is not an American failure, its an Arab failure.

Exactly.

"Infidel Americans! Despite your best efforts, we're still living in a tribal-warfare shithole! Hahahah, YOU LOSE, SUCKERS!"

25 big L  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:53:02am

Like eastern thought vs western thought.
IT is totally for sure different.

I hate to see and hear all the rah rah for our country going down. when I was out yesterday, I heard snatches of conversation and all about glad to see the US get it and that W is and a-hole etc.

This IRaq group is a shadow State Dept and Defense Dept. It is like they are running the show and Condi is in 'Witness protection', shunted aside and Rummy gone.So the Baker and Hamilton become the govt.
But Why? why did W want this? Is he so beholden on porous borders that he sought to sink the Gop so he could get the donks to pass his comprehensive bullshit plan for immigration? Does hewant to leave a
mess for hillary in 09.
I just hate to see this country sink. It is worth saving, but difficult because so many seem to want to ashcan it.

26 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:53:06am

#7 FredLee

Here's the original front page picture

NY Post front and back pages for 12/07/06.

The Post ROCKS!

27 DoctorDentons  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:53:19am

How can they miss it...the MSM and the Democratic Party has been publicizing it for the last couple of years...we are going to regret that these idiots have control of our government.

28 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:53:22am

History of the World in three NYC sentences:

You a Jew?

Yea.

Cross yer feet, I only got three nails.

29 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:53:52am

#19 BabbaZee

Yup. Followed the Vietnam recipe. Worked for them then, worked for then now.

30 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:54:04am
#26 Ward Cleaver 12/7/2006 07:53AM PST

#7 FredLee

Here's the original front page picture

NY Post front and back pages for 12/07/06.

The Post ROCKS!


Man, I love that pic. LOL

31 maddogg  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:54:46am

#19 BabbaZee
While your down that well, look aroung and see if you can see that pesky 12 imam down there, willya?

32 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:55:48am

#31 maddogg
Different well, that. Very different, LOL.

33 stonewall  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:56:06am

unreconstructed rebel

LOL love your name!

34 Jay777  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:56:13am
35 islamophobe  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:56:31am

And the rest of America slept on, dreaming of buying new stuff and the next vacation destination....while the islamopigs sharpened their swords and dreamed of decapitating Americans and Jooos.

36 victor_yugo  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:56:36am

Add one more surrender monkey: Bill Richardson (D-Moonbat).

And our reminders will no longer remind us of the consequences of "not my job":

With their number quickly dwindling, survivors of Pearl Harbor will gather Thursday one last time to honor those killed by the Japanese 65 years ago, and to mark a day that lives in infamy.

This will be their last visit to this watery grave to share stories, exchange smiles, find peace and salute their fallen friends. This, they say, will be their final farewell....

The survivors have met here every five years for four decades, but they're now in their 80s or 90s and are not counting on a 70th reunion. They have made every effort to report for one final roll call.

37 DC_Hog  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:56:49am

Freedom of Speech needs to be done away with, ......... except for those of us who are right, then we can say whatever we want.

38 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:57:06am

Charles,

This pic deserves its own thread.

39 Pope Insouciance IV  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:57:25am

In retreating, they guarantee that the future bloodshed will be much, much worse. It's not only predictable, it's obviously predictable.

How do I get a cushy job on the ISG? I'm ten times smarter than those old hacks.

40 WriterMom  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:58:53am

#19 BabbaZee

Oh Outraged Spleen of Zion! Hear thee the words of the Chief Rabbi of Britain. In other words, as the famous song goes "Chico-Don't Be Discouraged"...

Wittgenstein once rhetorically asked: What is your aim in philosophy? He replied: to show the fly the way out of the bottle. The fly is trapped in the bottle. It searches for a way out. Repeatedly it bangs its head against the glass until at last, exhausted, it dies. Had it been gifted with the power of reasoning it would have saved itself despair and death. If there is a way in, there is a way out. The one thing the fly forgets to do is to look up. Insight is the ability to see familiar things from an unfamiliar perspective. The way to understand Job is to invert the way it has often been understood. What if the truth at the heart of faith were the opposite of what we take it to be? What if, more significant than our faith in G-d, is G-d’s faith in us?

41 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:58:58am

OT

but not so much, since we need leaders:

SANTORUM voted AGAINST the new SecDef !

Because the guy talked about involving iran and syria...

42 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:59:13am

Former Aide Parts With Carter Over Book


By BRENDA GOODMAN and JULIE BOSMAN
Published: December 7, 2006
ATLANTA, Ga., Dec. 6 — An adviser to former President Jimmy Carter and onetime executive director of the Carter Center has publicly parted ways with his former boss, citing concerns with the accuracy and integrity of Mr. Carter’s latest book, “Palestine Peace Not Apartheid.”

More Politics NewsThe adviser, Kenneth W. Stein, a professor of Middle Eastern history and political science at Emory University, resigned his position as a fellow with the Carter Center on Tuesday, ending a 23-year association with the institution.

In a two-page letter explaining his action, Mr. Stein called the book “replete with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions and simply invented segments.” Mr. Stein said he had used similar language in a private letter he sent to Mr. Carter, but received no reply.

“In the letter to him, I told him, ‘It’s your prerogative to write anything you want when you want,’ ” Mr. Stein said in a telephone interview Wednesday. “That’s not why I’m resigning.”


[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

43 Yank in the EU  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:59:21am

DC_Hog

Let me guess, was is it Franco or Mussolini who said that? Stalin?

44 funkyfantom  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:59:27am
#26 Ward Cleaver
#7 FredLee

Here's the original front page picture

NY Post front and back pages for 12/07/06.

The Post ROCKS!

They sure rock today. But they rocked a bit less one month ago when they ENDORSED HILARY CLINTON FOR US SENATE.

45 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 5:59:55am

#40 WriterMom
Good snippet!

46 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:00:04am

#41 Poitiers-Lepanto 12/7/2006 07:58AM PST

OT

but not so much, since we need leaders:

SANTORUM voted AGAINST the new SecDef !

Because the guy talked about involving iran and syria...


Good for Santorum, he is right

47 coz  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:00:07am

Being the 65th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, I thought you should all see this. It is an excerpt from an "interview on the street" with ordinary Americans the day after the attack in 1941.

INTERVIEWER: Has the feeling of the people changed a lot? Have you noticed the people you meet in the street, is there a --

VOICES: Yes it has. Those that were against war.

They're for it now.

They're now for it.

The everyday isolationist has changed into an everyday defeatist of Hitler . . . defeatist of Nazism . . . or any -ism . . . outside of Americanism.

INTERVIEWER: All right, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you all.

Holy crap, what has happened to the American people?

Read the entire transcript here

48 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:00:08am

#33 stonewall.

There stands Jackson like a stone wall. Form behind the Virginians!


How do. Not many of us around.

49 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:01:18am

So when can we expect to hear Bin Ladens's and Zwahiri's surrender demands? I mean that is what comes next isn't it? They no doubt will demand that all members of the current administration be subjected to a fair trial in front of a shari'a court before executing them.

50 big L  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:02:30am

27-doctor dentons- remember afterthe 2004 election, J feen Cerry went to syria to meet with the chinless Assad. There was a photo op with him, and the photo wasa in the 'net.

51 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:02:48am

It looks like nukes will be the only thing that shuts these fuckers up. I'm not looking forward to it, but I'd still like it done sooner rather than later. With the global jihad getting stronger every year, nuclear confrontation is inevitable. So I'd rather it happened before their arsenal begins to look as well-stocked as ours. Sorry knee-jerk underdog lovers (liberals), I believe strongly in disproportionate warfare.

52 stonewall  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:02:55am

unreconstructed rebel

Agreed

Deo Vindice!

53 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:03:10am

BRA official's travels to Middle East raise accounting questions
Critic of mosque asks: Who paid?

By Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff | December 7, 2006

A critic of the Islamic Society of Boston's efforts to construct a mosque at Roxbury Crossing demanded yesterday that the society and the Boston Redevelopment Authority reveal who paid the expenses of the BRA deputy director who traveled to the Middle East on behalf of the mosque project.

Breaking News Alerts The David Project, a Jewish advocacy group, said in a press release yesterday that the BRA deputy director, Mohammad Ali-Salaam, had made more than one trip to the Middle East on behalf of the mosque project, and that the BRA and the Islamic society are refusing to divulge who had paid Ali Salaam's expenses.

The group filed suit in Suffolk Superior Court in October seeking to force BRA disclosure of records regarding the mosque project.


[Link: www.boston.com...]

54 NoSubmission  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:03:14am

5 FredLee

That NYPost cover is pretty amazing.

What's on the cover of the NYTimes today? The Hezbollah flag?

55 lioness  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:03:28am

See you all later...

Going to watch the Bush / Blair news conference.

Bye.

56 mafishfalastin  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:04:15am

The sad thing is these idiots can't even see they just passed an opportunity to join modern civilization, now they can rot in their stagnant cesspool of inbreeding which will hopefully cause them to have a myriad of genetic diseases passed down from generation to generation. I just feel really sorry for all those in Iraq who actually wanted democracy & thought they might actually get it this time, sorry guys but when the whole world is against you, even those who live in your country, there's pretty much nothing we can do.

Once the U.S. leaves the area, you will see the true meaning of barbarism.

57 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:04:19am

3000 years to build the Western Civilization, then 1000 politicos, journalists and fake intellectuals pull it down.

Isn't that funny ?

Well, we are great anyway, despite the traitors.

/Mozart Brigades

58 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:04:30am

REPLACE THE BAKER GANG WITH THE BIKER GANG!

Bring it,
Jihadi Mutha Fuckas.
When the days of torches and pitchforks comes,
and you have to deal directly with us....
everything changes.

MOO HA HA HA HA!
[artwork ec marm]

BURN TAQIYYALOPES BURRRRRNNN!

59 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:04:36am
#51 Lizard by the Bay 12/7/2006 08:02AM PST

It looks like nukes will be the only thing that shuts these fuckers up. I'm not looking forward to it, but I'd still like it done sooner rather than later. With the global jihad getting stronger every year, nuclear confrontation is inevitable. So I'd rather it happened before their arsenal begins to look as well-stocked as ours. Sorry knee-jerk underdog lovers (liberals), I believe strongly in disproportionate warfare.


I dont think we have anyone today with the will to nuke anyone, especially first strike.

60 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:04:38am
61 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:05:03am

I am afraid we will have to lose several more buildings, citizens and probably complete cities before this country will wake up and even then they will only become aware of it because the local mosque is blasting the news from their minarets.

62 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:05:04am

#40 WriterMom

The one thing the fly forgets to do is to look up.

To carry the analogy a step further, the fly doesn't forget; it just has immoble eyes. That's the problem, in a nutshell, with the ISG. Populated by flies with immobile eyes.

63 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:05:38am

I am very glad Oriana did not live to see this.
It would have killed her.

LOL

VIVA FALLACI!

64 FrogMarch  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:05:49am

woohooo the Democrats won. America is weak.

65 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:05:51am

#56 Mafishfalastin

Once the U.S. leaves the area

Our economy will run great with the gas at 30 $ per gallon.

66 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:06:17am

If you thought the Armenian thing was brutal, eee what happens to the Kurds when we flee.

67 American Soldier  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:06:29am

#36 victor_yugo
From your link:

"I suspect not many people have thought about this, but we're witnessing history," said Daniel Martinez, chief historian at the USS Arizona Memorial. "We are seeing the passing of a generation."

I think about it all the time. If you have a living relative who fought that war, write down anything you can get them to tell you. When the participants and witnesses are gone, only the revisionists remain.

68 sngnsgt  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:07:09am

Dubya on Fox right now.

69 Prester John  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:07:42am

#64

woohooo the Democrats won.

Don't you mean the Democrats and the MSM?

But wait, I repeat myself.

70 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:07:42am

#62 Earth2moonbat

Populated by flies with immobile eyes

Are you evoking the Lord of the Flies ? BaalZebub ?

Appropriate, very appropriate.

71 Peacekeeper  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:08:54am

Rejoice you arab morons! Carbombing as policy has been officially vetted by this. Expect to get more.

72 coz  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:09:17am

#60 song_and_dance_man

You talking about the biblical "restrainer"?

I think that would be Michael, the archangel.

73 big L  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:09:18am

30-Elric--I love it too. How do I print it out? I planned on emailing it around but the photo won't send acc to box.

74 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:09:30am

#68 Sngnsgt

Dubya on Fox right now.

is he giggling ? Is he happy ?

Any new doctrine ? The Axis of Good ?

75 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:09:34am
Dubya on Fox right now.


Who cares? The war is lost and all that is left is to stand witness to demise of our grand experiment that was America. I may not live long enough to witness the final days but my children unfortunately will.

76 DC_Hog  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:10:13am

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

Winston Churchill

77 maddogg  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:10:52am

#48 unreconstructed rebel

There are more of us than you might think.

78 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:11:05am

#70 Poitiers-Lepanto

BaalZebub ?

At first, I thought you said "BabbaZeeBub".

79 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:11:10am

PIMF - see

80 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:11:23am

#76 DC_Hog 12/7/2006 08:10AM PST

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

Winston Churchill


We need him today. England needs him too.

81 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:11:45am

#66 Unreconstructed rebel

If you thought the Armenian thing was brutal, eee what happens to the Kurds when we flee.

All of a sudden the demonrats will accept the concept of COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

82 FrogMarch  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:11:53am

69

Exactly. The Democrats and their wholly owned fourth estate.

83 Prester John  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:12:00am

#76 Great words, but irrelevant in this era of defeatist, linquini spined cowards.

84 WriterMom  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:12:00am

#74 P.L

Axis of Shlemiels

85 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:12:25am
#74 Poitiers-Lepanto 12/7/2006 08:09AM PST

#68 Sngnsgt

Dubya on Fox right now.

is he giggling ? Is he happy ?

Any new doctrine ? The Axis of Good ?


Its a digrace, especially on the same day Iran calls for the West to convert or die.

86 WriterMom  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:13:05am

#83 Prester John

linquini spined cowards

Hahahahha, to say nothing of their other parts.

87 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:13:34am

Uh-oh. BabbaZee has an evil twin - BabbaZeeBub.......

88 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:14:09am

#77 maddogg

There are more of us than you might think.

Cool!

89 BulgarWheat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:14:16am

#85 Elric66

something tells me that in spite of the Iraq Study Group findings, all is not lost.

I can't believe it could come to this.

90 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:15:51am

#76 DC_Hog

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

Winston Churchill

That will be the preamble of the New American Constitution when we will have won and we will rebuild the whole West.

91 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:15:51am

Alzhiemers and arrogance are a deadly combination when it comes to analysis of fast moving events and defying the laws of gravity without a net. Anyone want to join the ISG, Democrat, MSM trapeze act? Not wanting to fall is not a plan.

92 DC_Hog  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:16:05am

"#83 Prester John

#76 Great words, but irrelevant in this era of defeatist, linquini spined cowards."


I thought we had on early on in W, but now I am not so sure. The closest thing we had recently was Reagan.

93 jill e  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:16:11am

December 7 is not the day I want to feel defeat!

[Link: www.pearlharbormemorial.com...]

94 Silhouette  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:16:34am
CAIRO, Egypt - Many Arabs on Thursday interpreted an American advisory panel’s bleak assessment of President Bush’s Iraq policies as proof of Washington’s failure in the Middle East.

But others worried about the consequences if the U.S. follows the Iraq Study Group’s suggestions, warning that the report could fuel insurgents and others vying to fill Iraq’s security vacuum.

Odd how there were two camps of reactions, but only the one made it to the headline.

95 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:16:48am

#89 BulgarWheat

something tells me that in spite of the Iraq Study Group findings, all is not lost.

I can't believe it could come to this.

No, I think this has about as much of a chance of getting anywhere as a '79 Volare.
Olmert's already basically told them to buzz off.

96 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:17:13am
#89 BulgarWheat 12/7/2006 08:14AM PST

#85 Elric66

something tells me that in spite of the Iraq Study Group findings, all is not lost.

I can't believe it could come to this.

The damage is allready done, Islam is emboldened and who can blame them. Bush has lost his will to fight, I am sure he will go along with most of it. I e-mailed the RNC to let them know how I felt.

97 grumpy old codger  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:18:28am

Can anyone tell me where I can buy a cheap prayer rug and a compass, so I can point in the right direction?

98 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:18:33am
#95 Earth2moonbat 12/7/2006 08:16AM PST

#89 BulgarWheat

something tells me that in spite of the Iraq Study Group findings, all is not lost.

I can't believe it could come to this.

No, I think this has about as much of a chance of getting anywhere as a '79 Volare.
Olmert's already basically told them to buzz off.

Olmert is more spineless than Bush.

99 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:18:38am

J_A_G,

Who cares? The war is lost and all that is left is to stand witness to demise of our grand experiment that was America. I may not live long enough to witness the final days but my children unfortunately will.

You don't understand President Bush is a marvelous Poker player and the whole ISG report is a grand strategem to confuse and confound our enemies.

Just you wait. He's just baiting the trap and the Dems and America's enemies are walking right into it.

/Heavy sarcasm

100 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:18:59am

I refuse to be down about this all damn day.

You don't suppose the ISG report is so full of poison pills as to be unimplementable, do ya?

Just hopin'

101 WriterMom  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:19:02am

#95 Earth2Moonbat

I don't give a crap about anything Olmert says. Wanker. Wanker. Wanker. Even this little bone that he is throwing out to normalcy is not impressive.

102 blackelkspeaks  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:19:27am

#51 Lizard by the Bay - "It looks like nukes will be the only thing that shuts these fuckers up. I'm not looking forward to it, but I'd still like it done sooner rather than later. With the global jihad getting stronger every year, nuclear confrontation is inevitable. So I'd rather it happened before their arsenal begins to look as well-stocked as ours..."


#59 Elric66 - "I dont think we have anyone today with the will to nuke anyone, especially first strike."

#51 Lizard has it right. This thing cannot be stopped short of a nuclear war. But #59 Elric has it right, too. I, for one, will refuse to support nuclear retaliation, or anything else, when the Moslems nuke New York. Not after what they've done to the effort to defend this country after 911. Let them all die the next time around. Not another brave American serviceman should be asked to risk life and limb for the likes of what America has become today. November 7th, 2006 is the new "Day of Infamy".

103 DC_Hog  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:19:30am

"#90

That will be the preamble of the New American Constitution when we will have won and we will rebuild the whole West."


We are the West.

104 bweep  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:19:47am
“This report is a recognition of the limitation of American power,” said Abdel Moneim Said, head of Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic studies in Cairo.

Staggering isn't it? This is a so called arab expert. The failure of the USA to control a country which they have long since handed over to a democratically elected government! A government elected under a constitution ratified by the people of that country and drawn up by a previously elected government? yeah. A real failure by the USA!
The american agenda was to get rid of Saddam and any possible threat he might ever pose to all of us. Job done. If anyone has failed in Iraq it's the Iraqis.

105 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:20:39am

#40 WriterMom 12/7/2006 07:58AM PST,

That was good. I liked that which reminded me that Noah had but one window in the Ark and it too looked up.

I need to remember these things...

106 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:21:08am

#99 Dirk Diggler

LOL !

107 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:21:32am

#61 JustAGrunt

I am afraid we will have to lose several more buildings, citizens and probably complete cities before this country will wake up and even then they will only become aware of it because the local mosque is blasting the news from their minarets.

I think we have passed the tipping point. Nearly every woter who has turned 18 in the last 6 years have been fed a steady diet of self-loathing even more profound than anything I experienced in high school. BDS has really encouraged the looney left to tear it off the hinges and never look back, and they've spread their deranged hate to our captive children like never before.

I truly believe that this has so poisoned our electorate, that even after a dozen more massive terror attacks, a majority (slim, but still a majority) of Americans will want leaders to find new ways of appeasing our enemies. Basically, we now want and will accept anything that avoids a fight.

The sad truth is that America as a whole is exactly what our enemies say we are. After only 3 years and casualty rates so low for a war that it's the equivalent of a nosebleed, and the majority of Americans elect what they hope is a cut and run government.

This is not our parent's America. For many of you reading, this is not even your own America anymore. We will not pay and price or bear any burden to support the cause of liberty. Most Americans can't even define the concept. And it will only get worse. I see no blueprint that will lead to a pro-American resurgence, so long as nearly 100% of the media and the educational system belong squarely in the enemy camp. The children are our future, and the fututre is really fuckin' bleak.

108 _remembertonyc  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:21:42am

One thing about the members of the ISG that nobody is mentioning is the ages of the group members. I think 8 of the 10 are in their mid to late 70's and the two youngest members are 67 and 68. While there is a certain amount of wisdom associated with age (the evil intent of baker notwithstanding), there is also a lot of CAUTION associated with older people. Not to mention a reliance on the way "we used to do it." But in this war against islamists, we need "out of the box" thinkers with creative and FRESH ideas, and I don't see any in that group. I see a bunch of people who won't be alive in 10-20 years when we reap what they are attempting to sow.

I think this is an important angle in this story that people should consider when assessing the motives of this ISG.

109 Silhouette  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:21:45am

Seeing us as weak isn't that same thing as us being weak.

Nonetheless, the appearance of weakness always invites attack.

/But Alderaan is peaceful! We have no weapons, you can't possibly...

110 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:22:35am

#87 Earth2moonbat
Yea that's the chick in the Zionist Hobby Center Iranian sci fi flick haha

111 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:24:24am

#101 WriterMom

It's better than saying "how far do you want me to bend over?".

I think Olmert has done his share of dumb and spinless things, too. but at least he's made the default position on this "nyet". Of course, Bibi would have said "hell nyet".

112 WriterMom  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:24:25am

BabbaZee, goodbye natlie and others, here is the web site of the Chief Rabbi of the UK. I don't always agree with his politics, but he is a FANTASTIC writer, he is really well-read in secular studies, philosophy and also Jewish sources. I get the Torah portion of the week by e-mail and there is never a week where there isn't a truly inspirational paragraph or two in it. I highly recommend this e-mail to any spiritual lizards who want to read some great thoughts inspired by the Torah.

113 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:24:44am

$104 bweep

If anyone has failed in Iraq it's the Iraqis.


Thanks for that, bweep. Spot on. We did everything we could including apprehending the bastard & the Iraqis let the fascist win.

114 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:25:10am

Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."

~ George Patton

How much have the Dims and MSM changed in 60 years?

We could use somebody like this right now because Arabs would quake at the sight of a Patton. I guarantee it.

115 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:25:20am
#108 _remembertonyc 12/7/2006 08:21AM PST

One thing about the members of the ISG that nobody is mentioning is the ages of the group members. I think 8 of the 10 are in their mid to late 70's and the two youngest members are 67 and 68. While there is a certain amount of wisdom associated with age (the evil intent of baker notwithstanding), there is also a lot of CAUTION associated with older people. Not to mention a reliance on the way "we used to do it." But in this war against islamists, we need "out of the box" thinkers with creative and FRESH ideas, and I don't see any in that group. I see a bunch of people who won't be alive in 10-20 years when we reap what they are attempting to sow.

I think this is an important angle in this story that people should consider when assessing the motives of this ISG.


The group should have been made up of military leaders and people knowledgable of Islam like Robert Spencer. Sandra Day O'Conner? Please.

116 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:26:10am

#107

"woter" should be "voter". PIMF

117 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:26:19am
#111 Earth2moonbat 12/7/2006 08:24AM PST

#101 WriterMom

It's better than saying "how far do you want me to bend over?".

I think Olmert has done his share of dumb and spinless things, too. but at least he's made the default position on this "nyet". Of course, Bibi would have said "hell nyet".


Bibi would have kicked Hezzie's ass.

118 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:26:19am

#103 DC_Hog

We are the West.

Of course we are, and the People have today the responsibility to bring back the West to its greatness.
We must raise like a storm and blow away the frigging drunken traitors who are trying to sell us.
We must build a wall of courage and will of fighting.

It will take time, but we will be able to do it.

I have no doubt.

WE THE PEOPLE !

119 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:26:24am

Elric, #66. Looking at your posts leads to the the following questions: Do you have the leadership skills to run a Cub Scout troop? Are you a Cub Scout who likes to bitch? Negativity is not an outstanding leadership quality. Reference the ISG report for what I mean.

120 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:26:38am

Even Biden has rejected linkage of Iraq and Israel. I'm telling you, this thing, at least recommendations 16 and 17, is stillborn.

121 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:26:53am

#97 grumpy old codger

Can anyone tell me where I can buy a cheap prayer rug and a compass, so I can point in the right direction?

Go to your nearest mosque, at the rate the Muslim population is increasing in the United States (1 million in less than a year, 6 mil in 2005, 7 million in 2006), you should find one just down the street from you. If you have any fight left in you, may I make the suggestion that you find out if your village, city or town permits pigs on the premises and get yourself one pink oinker and one large dog with a booming bark that slobbers a lot.

122 NoSubmission  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:27:43am

BZ

Zionist Hobby Center

Still cracking up over that film.
LOL!

123 _remembertonyc  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:28:52am

115 Elric ... excellent point on the lack of military people in the ISG.

As for baKKKer, if he did his job better back in 1991, the ISG maynever have been necessary.

124 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:29:11am

Somebody got a recording of Red Skelton doing the "Pledge of Allegiance"? That just popped into my head Don't know why.

125 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:29:26am

Hold your ground! Hold your ground!

Sons of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers,

I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me.

A day may come when the courage of men fails,

when we forsake our friends

and break all bonds of fellowship,

but it is not this day.

An hour of wolves and shattered shields,

when the age of men comes crashing down,

but it is not this day!

This day we fight!

By all that you hold dear on this good Earth,

I BID YOU STAND, MEN OF THE WEST!

/see you later on today

126 HDrepub  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:30:17am

48 unreconstructed rebel

How do. Not many of us around.

How do. More of us than you might think :). Many Confederates in my attic, some who died for the cause.

127 realwest  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:30:18am

#102 blackelkspeaks - "I, for one, will refuse to support nuclear retaliation, or anything else, when the Moslems nuke New York. Not after what they've done to the effort to defend this country after 911. Let them all die the next time around."
Thanks a lot. IIRC, you and I have pointed/counterpointed on this before, but this time I want to make it perfectly clear: I have friends and family in NY. Indeed more than one-third of NYer's voted for Bush in '04, and WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, NY is a part, a big part of America.
You don't want to defend NY or, presumably other parts of this country that don't measure up to YOUR standards of what is and isn't American? Fuck You.
And please, PLEASE, go back to blackelknolongerspeaks.

128 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:30:37am

#109 silhouette

Seeing us as weak isn't that same thing as us being weak.

Well, except when it is.

129 funky chicken  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:30:43am

Saudi money and Papa Bush's rolodex won GW Bush the nomination on 1999. It looks like Saudi money and influence and Papa Bush's rolodex people will run the next (and thankfully last) two years of this presidency. We can only pray that 2 years isn't enough time for the Sauds, moneymen, and democrats to do serious damage to the country.

My take on the ISG etc.
Unfortunately, very few people do understand the threat posed by Iran and Syria. And I have to lay that at the feet of the President and Republican congress. We were attacked on our own soil, quite spectacularly, and what did we get? Trent Lott's railroad to nowhere, Ted Stevens's bridge to nowhere, billions in other pork, and zero increase in our active duty military force. If we were so committed to supporting our troops and WINNING in Iraq, why wasn't the pres on the TV every night telling congress he wouldn't sign another spending bill until they had appropriated money for more active duty troops? F*ck the media and the democrats...and it's not their fault that he didn't really try very hard.

Not to mention that the president sent our people over to fight in Iraq but started the "hearts and minds Iraqization" process before the last shots in the first round had been fired, and before true surrender had taken place.

The fix was in by the time Fallujah, round 1 happened. The fix is only made more and more apparent every single day Al Sadr and his Mahdi army run around and have support and a cabinet level position in the Iraqi government.

So the president listened to the neocons through the early going in Afganistan and Iraq, and then drastically changed course. (Hello, Prince Bandar hand-holding.) At least his father had the excuse that we had gone in as part of a grand coalition, and when the grand coalition told us to leave Saddam in power and screw the Kurds and Shia we had to listen.

Bush went wobbly very early, IMHO. The result of his going wobbly is the trouble we have now. Tragically for us, he seems to have run home to daddy just like the spoiled rich boy he is.

The Baker report has emboldened the enemy, horrified our allies, and hurt our troops' morale...WTF must they be thinking when they hear that the president's vaunted advisors want to sit and chat with the guys who are sending "advanced IEDs" over the border to maim and kill them?

130 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:30:50am

#108 _remembertonyc

One thing about the members of the ISG that nobody is mentioning is the ages of the group members. I think 8 of the 10 are in their mid to late 70's and the two youngest members are 67 and 68. While there is a certain amount of wisdom associated with age (the evil intent of baker notwithstanding), there is also a lot of CAUTION associated with older people.

Let's not also forget that that represents an absurdly idealistic generation. I think the old saw of wisdom coming age doesn't apply to that particular bunch.

And what, pray tell, is cautious about wishful thinking?

131 victor_yugo  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:30:57am

#67 American Soldier:

My mother already has. She couldn't get the stories from her father, but she got some from his best friend before he passed, as well.

132 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:31:09am

I have always thought Benjamin Netanyahu to be the best, most impressive political Israeli leader I have witnessed in the last 20 years. I also understand he has dual citizenship as an American citizen.

So if I were Pres. Natalie, I would nominate Mr. Netanyahu my Sec. of State and tell the Saudis to get ready for a little sand in their jar.

133 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:32:08am
#123 _remembertonyc 12/7/2006 08:28AM PST

115 Elric ... excellent point on the lack of military people in the ISG.

As for baKKKer, if he did his job better back in 1991, the ISG maynever have been necessary.

If alot of leaders did their job back in the day, we wouldnt be in this position today. What we can do right now is contact our leaders and educate them on the folly of their course and the true nature of Islam.

134 Malatrope  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:32:13am

/tinfoil hat ON

W and many of the rest of the West's leadership are acting as though they've been quietly informed that many if not most cities have already been wired to go boom.

/tinfoil hat OFF

135 HDrepub  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:34:38am

58 BabbaZee

REPLACE THE BAKER GANG WITH THE BIKER GANG!

Now we're talkin'! Where do I sign up? Say BabbaZee, wanna hop a 'cycle, would ja care?

136 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:36:12am

#117 Elric66

Bibi would have kicked Hezzie's ass.

More importantly, he would have told the EU/UN/MSM/LLL complex to place it in the posterior orifice.

137 Stringart  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:36:29am

#16 Maximu§


Iraq is not an American failure, its an Arab failure.

Agreed.

138 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:37:20am

#127 realwest

Indeed more than one-third of NYer's voted for Bush in '04, and WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, NY is a part, a big part of America.

Well, let's take a close look at that, shall we? In the very heart of the terrorist attacks, where 2,500 people lost their lives in a morning, where fires burned, ash rained, and smoke filled the air for weeks. In this place, less than 40% of the people could be counted on to help re-elect the man who brought the fight to our enemies.

Sorry, but I find that deeply indefensable. I love New York, but I'd rather spend my time and energy defending South Carolina from terrorists if given the choice.

P.S., if the solidly red states ever do consider secession, leave the door open for me, please.

139 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:38:25am

#132 goodbye_natalie

I also understand he has dual citizenship as an American citizen.

Nope. Not really possible & certainly not recognized by US. We have this quaint requirement that a naturalized citizen must foreswear allegiance to any foreign prince. (kinda wish we had a similar requirement for those born here)

That said, dual citizenship that includes US is not possible.

140 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:38:34am
#136 Earth2moonbat 12/7/2006 08:36AM PST

#117 Elric66

Bibi would have kicked Hezzie's ass.

More importantly, he would have told the EU/UN/MSM/LLL complex to place it in the posterior orifice.


He would do that too. Hopefully these rabbis can force out Olmert. :-)

141 Owl  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:39:37am

There are few that even care anymore. people are too busy making money and worrying about their social lives to care about the demise of humanity at the hands of evil.

ah well.

142 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:40:28am

#140 Elric66

Hopefully these rabbis can force out Olmert. :-)

If rabbits can scare Carter, rabbis should be able to scare Olmert out of office.

143 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:41:10am

Americans as a whole are slow learners because we live in our big bubble of a country and think the rest of world acts, lives and behaves like us.

That is why somebody has to throw a brick through our living room window, usually twice, before we finally get the message.

I am not worried about America rising to the occasion when we recognize we are being threatened because I know me, my friends, and you guys. We can win without half the country's help. What I am concerned about are the Israelis, the Kurds, and the Afghans because I don't trust our leadership to defend them to the end. And sooner or later, because of hesitancy to act boldly with the enemy, we will endanger countless thousands of our real friends. And that speaks poorly of us.

144 Prester John  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:41:23am

#141 Funny, I thought they were worried about whether or not Britney was wearing panties and getting drunk with Paris and Lindsay.

145 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:42:50am

#139 unreconstucted rebel

That said, dual citizenship that includes US is not possible.

Nonsense. I know dozens of people with dual citizenship that includes the US. Virtually anyone with one American parent and one foreign parent born overseas has it.

146 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:43:23am
#142 Earth2moonbat 12/7/2006 08:40AM PST

#140 Elric66

Hopefully these rabbis can force out Olmert. :-)

If rabbits can scare Carter, rabbis should be able to scare Olmert out of office.


I hope so. Once Israel is gone, Islam's sword will be pointed directly at us.

147 selpaw  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:43:45am

Bush Blair press conference.
Bush saying how important to resolve PA Israeli conflict --> but not saying Israel is not responsible for peace in Iraq. Not even coming close to refuting this libel. Therefore the newest libel against Jews is perceived as true. This libel spoken by Tony Blair before the Baker report came out.

Revision of history is alive and well. Soon the transcript will be out and you can read for yourself. Or spin for yourself.

As for Blair, truly I expected nothing from him but shit in regard to Israel. You should hear Blair stumbling and stammering as he speaks about his libel against Jews.
I have to say though as for President Bush I made the serious mistake to expect more. And yes, I understand the difficult time he is going through but in regard to Israel a lie for any reason even when you find yourself in the corner is a lie. Period.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

I hope there is outrage in why Israel is being dragged into this for it is truly immoral. We are fucked. All of us. Period.

148 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:45:40am

#139 unreconstructed rebel,

Nope. Not really possible & certainly not recognized by US. We have this quaint requirement that a naturalized citizen must foreswear allegiance to any foreign prince. (kinda wish we had a similar requirement for those born here)

That said, dual citizenship that includes US is not possible.

I guess I can say as an "old" American, I am ashamed I did not know that. But you can teach this old dog new tricks so I will add that to my ever smaller memory bank.

149 wargammer2005  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:45:42am

the nice liberals and other so called anti-war fools just do not understand that they are making the use of nuclear weapons more and more likely with the inability to confront evil.

150 Occasional Reader  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:46:42am

#129 funky chicken:

Saudi money and Papa Bush's rolodex won GW Bush the nomination on 1999.

Funny, I didn't think this was michaelmoore.com

151 DocRambo  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:47:01am

OK Everybody: GET IT STRAIGHT! We won the war. We have muddled through and lost the peace. Gengis Khan understood the use of overwhelming force and subjugating your enemies. Unfortunately, the political control of the military insists on a politically correct involvement that looks good in the papers. Our military could have had the country of Iraq under control if it had been allowed to subjugate the opposition. (Subjugate=annihilate.) Now we look like the namby-pambies we are--weak willed wussies who don't have the guts to do the job. These Jihadists are so willing to meet Allah, why do we not accomodate them? Saddam understood the use of overwhelming force and it was the only thing that kept a semblance of order in these barbaric tribal cretins for his entire regime. Having Murtha and Pelosi controlling our military destiny is like betting on Richard Simmons to win a "Tough Guy" contest. Washington needs an emergency transfusion of testosterone and immediate enteric transplant (A little "balls and guts") The only thing more ignoble would be for the ISG to appoint Mr Kerry as the Chairman of the committee to lead us out of Iraq. What a glorious day for America-the dawning of the New Caliphate.

152 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:48:45am

#150 OR,

#129 funky chicken:

Saudi money and Papa Bush's rolodex won GW Bush the nomination on 1999.

Funny, I didn't think this was michaelmoore.com

LOL. I too seem to have been misdirected.

153 American Soldier  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:49:10am

#139 unreconstructed rebel
You are incorrect.

154 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:49:17am

So... the type of folks who misread the US and thought taking the towers down would cause the US to collapse have read the tea leaves and concluded that it's all over and the US is done...
Is it hashish or something in the water or just inbreeding or something thats retarding these idiots?

155 WriterMom  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:50:49am

{selpaw}

156 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:51:10am

#145 Lizard by the Bay

Many may claim it, but without the force of law. They are not recognized by the US (but probably ignored by the US as well).

Point is, when push comes to shove the US will demand such claimers to make a choice.

157 blackelkspeaks  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:51:48am

To #127 realwest:

I wrote "I, for one, will refuse to support nuclear retaliation, or anything else, when the Moslems nuke New York. Not after what they've done to the effort to defend this country after 911. Let them all die the next time around."

You wrote "Thanks a lot. IIRC, you and I have pointed/counterpointed on this before, but this time I want to make it perfectly clear: I have friends and family in NY. Indeed more than one-third of NYer's voted for Bush in '04, and WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, NY is a part, a big part of America. You don't want to defend NY or, presumably other parts of this country that don't measure up to YOUR standards of what is and isn't American? Fuck You."

To which I respond - Drop Dead! Please!

When asked what should be done about the Northern invasion of the Confederacy, Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson replied "Kill 'em. Kill 'em all." Bitter hatred between Americans happened before. And you know what? Maybe its time it happened again. Tell that to you foolish relatives who haven't figured out that they need to relocate from New York.

158 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:55:10am

arabs talking about "failure."

ironic.

159 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:55:12am

#135 HDrepub

I have to sleep a bit.
I'll be back.

/Of course I will.
There is no where else to go for sanctuary!

160 LGF Widower  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:56:48am

Check this out. Team Jihad is actively celebrating the ISG's steaming pile of recommendations: [Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

I'm sure the MSM will be all over this. Yeah, any minute now...

LGF Widower

161 SaneInMN  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 6:57:15am

The ISG reminds me of the Scottish nobels portrayed in the movie, Brave Heart. Despite winning in Afghanistan, a feat that no nation in history has been able to pull off, and removing Saddam from power, lets make peace with our enemies by making concessions, and sacrafice national indentity (in this case, Israels) in order to placate those who provide us with our needed oil, etc.

BTW...On the anniversary of Pearl Harbor, Laura Ingraham discusses the US economy with her new best friend, Lou Dobbs. She also always leaves a segment open for discussing foreign policy with the great anti-Jew, Pat Buchanan. Screw her!

162 neverpayretail  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:01:49am

Islam is not invincible on any battlefield. Its strength is derived from ignorance. Their entire strategy in our midst is to maintain ignorance of Islam. Their survival hinges on it.

I still say, no matter what happens in Iraq, we must isolate Islam as the problem, openly and without apology. The free world must take this second step.

The first step is education as to what Islam is. This is occurring thanks to the internet, and in spite of the MSM. The second is to openly acknowledge the problem - Islam. This has several results; intensifies the debate, increases education, encourages pride in who we are, distinguishes us from them, and ultimately, puts pressure on the MSM and academia to come around.

The third step is containment (=isolation) and exposure (=ridicule) of Islam. Islam simply cannot survive the light of day. We have technology today that can provide global exposure like never before. We have it, they don't. Isolation is a tactic that forces the issue that Islam remains stuck in the past while the free world continues to advance. This puts pressure on the isolated community to either change or die. They also know this. That is why they soooooo want to infilitrate our infidel society. Containment counters their tactic.

We can beat them. We have the technology.

163 Wisenheimer  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:03:20am

The ISG report is an example of what happens when impotent, washed-up diplomats masturbate.

A Pearl Harbor-style attack demands a Tokyo response.

What are we afraid of?

164 easy  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:04:05am

The room was thick with doom.

I can't really understand how a report made by a bunch of washed up politicians and the reactions of a bunch of cocky arabs spells the doom of the west.

Oh ye of little faith.

165 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:04:15am
#163 Wisenheimer 12/7/2006 09:03AM PST

The ISG report is an example of what happens when impotent, washed-up diplomats masturbate.

A Pearl Harbor-style attack demands a Tokyo response.

What are we afraid of?


Afraid of offending people that want to kill us or want us dead.

166 Clio  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:04:36am

From MARK STEYN -- National Review Online, 6 December:

Quote:

Of course, Syria “should” do this and
Iran “should” do that and, if they were
Sandra Day O’Connor, I’m sure they would.
But they’re not.

And the only specific strategic proposal
is a linkage between Iraq and a “renewed
and sustained commitment” to “comprehensive
Arab-Israeli peace” – which concedes the
same ludicrous rationale that the Saudi
King Abdullah and all the rest of them
make: that one tiny ten-mile sliver of Jews
is the reason why millions of Muslims from
the Straits of Gibraltar to the Emirates
are mired in dictatorships, failed
economies and jihadist fever.

For the Baker group to endorse this clapped
out pan-Arabism is disgusting. An “Arab-
Israeli peace”? What does that mean? What
exactly is Israel doing to Iraq, or
Tunisia, or Qatar, or any other Arabs
except those in the “Palestinian
territories”?

To frame it in those terms is to adopt the
pathologies of the enemy. Shame on Baker,
Hamilton and all the rest.

End quote.

167 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:06:02am

#157. Black elk speaks. The Civil war was not caused by the words or philosophy of General Jackson, but over the words and actions of those who led the states which succeded. Jackson died a rebel, whose life is remembered for his military leadership skills, rather than any enduring contribution to the strength of the principals upon which this nation was founded. Being an American is special.

168 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:08:36am

#139 Unreconstructed Rebel

Not true.
Dual citizenship is allowed, despite the Oath, because as an American Citizenship you are forbidden to WORK for any foreign Country.
If you do, you lose the American Citizenship.

169 tfc3rid  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:09:44am

blackelkspeaks...

Hey, I've been a member of this LGF family for quite some time. I live in NYC. I support complete and utter defeat of the forces of Islam. I live here because my family is here and my job is here. Am I aware that I've got a HUGE target on my back, YES. Am I going to run from here because of it, NO.

Will I likely die in a major WMD attack, YES. I would rather be someone that America will fight for against IslamoFascism than someone who is going to run away from here...

I want to prevent my City from being blown off the planet... If they do and kill me in turn, I want them all dead...

170 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:09:54am

One more thing about Bibi that ties into the ISG:

Bibi would feel confident telling any officials from the US to take their recommendations and place then in the anal receptacle, because he understands the US. He understands that foggy butt will be anti-Israeli no matter what they do. He understands that many of the Demos and a significant number of the Repubs in congress are the same way. He also understands that some Demos and most Repubs are the opposite. In short, he understands that American support for Israel, or lack thereof, isn't as dependent on Israeli conduct as most Israeli politicians think.

That's why he'll chose his battles with the US diplomats carefully, but when he has to say "no", he'll have no qualms about doing so. It's because he understands the US government so much better than Olmert and so many other Israeli politicians.

171 funky chicken  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:10:19am

150 OR Hey, even a fat, smelly, broken clock is right twice a day.

OK, in Moore's case we'd better us a military clock and then he can only be right once a day.

172 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:11:27am

#139, 168. IIRC, you both need to do a bit more research on the subject.

173 SevoGuy  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:11:31am

The only Bush failure is not enough sunnis are dead. Bush can redeem himself quickly by giving the sunni's an ultimatum: STOP THE INSURGENCY OR BE WIPED OUT BY A HEAVILY ARMED SHI'ITE ARMY. DECLARE SUPPORT FOR A KRUDISH COUNTRY CUT OUT FROM IRAQ. And last.......have the Syrian and Iranian opposition groups start an insurgency in those countries.

It's the only way.

174 funky chicken  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:16:07am

173 sevoguy Al-Sadr is a Shiite. He needed to take a dirt nap 3 years ago. So Sunnis aren't the only problem, not by a long shot.

But the Sauds are Sunnis, so we won't take a tough line with them either.

175 ToxMan  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:17:14am

I wonder, does anyone think that ISG is a PR campaign or political cover?

Here is some of my reasoning:

Bush, unable to garner continued wide public support, having lost majorities in Congress, has spent all "political capital". He is a lame duck president, politically. But, he is still commander and chief. I believe the administration is in a better position than the ISG to make assessments and determinations for what is needed in Iraq. Just not in a position to "sell the war."


I believe (IMHO) that most Americans are NOT "cut and run." Whether or not you are for the war is mute. We are there and we cannot leave and allow the Iraqi gov't to fall.

ISG wants to embed more trainers and pull out "combat forces." If you take BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) out of the equation, remove campaign rhetoric, how different is ISG Report from current administration's plans? (I have not read it yet)

My deepest concern is the pragmatic approach of the ISG. It is a repeat of realpolitik versus a vision of democratized Middle East and winning the Global War on Terror.

176 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:17:14am
177 Ron(Ron)  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:18:57am

And we care what Arabs "think" because...?

Arabs, of the Moslem kind, are among the stupidest, uneducateda, most thuglike people in the world.

I for one could not care less what they "think".

178 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:19:23am

#174 funky chicken

But the Sauds are Sunnis, so we won't take a tough line with them either.

Saudi Arabia has denied the report that had one of the princes/government officials saying that if the United States leaves the Sunnis defenseless in Iraq, they will not allow the Iraqi Sunnis to be slaughtered at will by the Shi'iah.

179 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:20:24am
#178 abc-m-xyz 12/7/2006 09:19AM PST

#174 funky chicken

But the Sauds are Sunnis, so we won't take a tough line with them either.

Saudi Arabia has denied the report that had one of the princes/government officials saying that if the United States leaves the Sunnis defenseless in Iraq, they will not allow the Iraqi Sunnis to be slaughtered at will by the Shi'iah.


Sunnis killing Shia and vice versa is a good thing

180 Ma Sands  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:21:05am

And then, WND interviews terrorist:

Terrorists rejoicing over new Iraq 'plan'

181 Enraged_Badger  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:22:06am

Hits heads against wall.
Article here on how Baker and Co. have more great ideas of appeasing the crocodile
[Link: web.israelinsider.com...]
"sources close to Baker say that it intention is to hold a conference 'without Jewish pressure'." and "Specifically, one source reveals that the conference would aim to please Syria by handing over the Golan; Saudi Arabia with increased Palestinian influence; and Iran with implied acceptance of that country's suspicious nuclear program and a seat at the international roundtable."

What on earth is going on? Selling out Israel and some how the US will no longer be the Great Satan and they'll love you?
What parts of the phrase 'convert or die' do Baker and Co. not understand?

182 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:22:08am

WRT the dual-citizenship thingy:

Section 349 of the INA [8 USC § 1481] specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include:

becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18;

serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US;

working for a foreign government (e.g., in political office or as a civil servant);

formally renouncing one's US citizenship before duly authorized US officials; or

committing treason against, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the government of, the US.

Defense rests

183 Catttt  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:24:08am

Paper Tiger? Ha! As if. The only problem is - if they think we are, they'll keep trying to lick us. But they were going to do that anyway.

184 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:24:14am

#179 Elric66

Sunnis killing Shia and vice versa is a good thing

It makes no difference to the ones inside the Beltway.

185 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:25:40am
#181 Enraged_Badger 12/7/2006 09:22AM PST

What on earth is going on? Selling out Israel and some how the US will no longer be the Great Satan and they'll love you?
What parts of the phrase 'convert or die' do Baker and Co. not understand?


I dont think they understand Islam at all.

186 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:27:26am

More on the dual citizenship thingy:

Holding multiple passports is not synonomous with holding multiple citizenships.

Yes lots of minors hold lots of passports. But upon turning 18, US law demands you get right.

187 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:27:44am
#184 abc-m-xyz 12/7/2006 09:24AM PST

#179 Elric66

Sunnis killing Shia and vice versa is a good thing

It makes no difference to the ones inside the Beltway.


They are indifferent to our survival

188 HVT  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:28:22am
The ISG report is an example of what happens when impotent, washed-up diplomats masturbate.

...as is the Iraq war itself, conjured up and approved of by the very same idiots.

Why on earth would anyone listen to these morons now?

189 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:30:34am

#186 Unreconstructed Rebel

Please stop, zillions have dual citizenship and YES, having two passports is possible ONLY if you have dual citizenship.

Special international agreements have been signed with some Countries to this end.

190 realwest  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:31:32am

#157 blackelkspeaks - "When asked what should be done about the Northern invasion of the Confederacy, Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson replied "Kill 'em. Kill 'em all." Bitter hatred between Americans happened before. And you know what? Maybe its time it happened again."

Great thinking there, blackelspeaks. Civil War brewing in Iraq; problems getting worse between Israel and the Palestinians, Russia arming Iran, Syria backing and passing along Iranian (Russian)arms and advisors to
Hezbollah in Lebanon and you want a civil war HERE? I did leave NY to return to the state of my birth, North Carolina. And yes, some of my ancestors fought and died in the American War Between the States on the Confederate side. But rage, no matter what the provocation, that calls for Americans to kill Americans or to not retaliate when millions of Americans are killed by terrorists because of the "bitter hatred" of some Americans towards all those who were murdered is completly WRONG and, frankly, borderline crazy.

191 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:31:42am

Wasn't it Madwoman Albright who said what's the point of having the finest military without using it?

192 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:32:10am
#188 HVT 12/7/2006 09:28AM PST

The ISG report is an example of what happens when impotent, washed-up diplomats masturbate.
...as is the Iraq war itself, conjured up and approved of by the very same idiots.

Why on earth would anyone listen to these morons now?


I wasnt aware Sandra Day O'Conner was in on the planning of the Iraq war

193 CastorOil  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:35:31am

Rumsfeld is gone, Bolton is gone.
Geriatric minds are running Iraq surrender tests. Israel is thrown again to the crocodiles. The Palestinians "right of return" is mentioned along with other Arab appeasement carrots - a first for America.
EU is increasing donations to the Palestinians, UN is asking for more money for the terror state to be, Olmert is willing to give them back territories complete with numerous terrorists freshly released from jails.
Hamas is smuggling in millions in donations from Arab countries. Hezbollah is staging a coup in Lebanon. Iran is on its way to becoming a nuclear power.
And much, much more...
Conclusion: yeah, terror works.

194 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:37:25am

#157 blackelkspeaks,

To #127 realwest:

I wrote "I, for one, will refuse to support nuclear retaliation, or anything else, when the Moslems nuke New York. Not after what they've done to the effort to defend this country after 911. Let them all die the next time around."

You wrote "Thanks a lot. IIRC, you and I have pointed/counterpointed on this before, but this time I want to make it perfectly clear: I have friends and family in NY. Indeed more than one-third of NYer's voted for Bush in '04, and WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, NY is a part, a big part of America. You don't want to defend NY or, presumably other parts of this country that don't measure up to YOUR standards of what is and isn't American? Fuck You."

To which I respond - Drop Dead! Please!

I used to think like you (kind of). But Realwest and his mother didn't suddenly become great people because they moved to a different location. They're still the same.

At one time, I had enough of San Fran and it's blatant anti-Americanism and thought who the hell cares if the Muslims blitz them . But then I started talking to some on the board here from the area (Zombie, Lizard by the Bay and Dianna quickly come to mind) and realized just how dumb my thought process was. We'd be better to reconcile our theological differences and work together for the greater good. Our country would be better for it in the long run.

195 Elric66  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:37:43am
#193 CastorOil 12/7/2006 09:35AM PST

Rumsfeld is gone, Bolton is gone.
Geriatric minds are running Iraq surrender tests. Israel is thrown again to the crocodiles. The Palestinians "right of return" is mentioned along with other Arab appeasement carrots - a first for America.
EU is increasing donations to the Palestinians, UN is asking for more money for the terror state to be, Olmert is willing to give them back territories complete with numerous terrorists freshly released from jails.
Hamas is smuggling in millions in donations from Arab countries. Hezbollah is staging a coup in Lebanon. Iran is on its way to becoming a nuclear power.
And much, much more...
Conclusion: yeah, terror works.


Terror works on the weak willed.

196 legalpad  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:37:46am

The Iraq Study Group is nothing.

It should be recognized that this “different kind of war”, this “asymmetric warfare” is 90% a propaganda war. Terrorists have no real military capabilities.

The propaganda team should be in place first to discredit terrorists. There are enough good journalists from many countries and cultures who really understand what Muslim terrorism is about to do this. It should be thorough, not crude propaganda. It should be aggressive, researching issues, events, and people, to continually discredit all disinformation and disingenuous people.

Basic principles of advertising should be followed. For example, have sufficient repetition to make an impact on the public. There should be no embedded press. Controlling the media means controlling the war and controlling casualties.

There is clearly a balance in all media regarding the concept of the freedom of the press, freedom of speech. Every single media entity sifts through thousands of stories and bits of information and decides what will be heard. Most all of them edit it and slant it. If they have a problem with the propaganda team, they can be exposed.

The next step is not to restrain the military except in normal (and real) Geneva Convention issues. There was no mistake in deposing Saddam Hussein. But the mistakes in conducting the war are these:

1.Too much warning beforehand. Those trying to delay the war were not honest. There was never a “rush” to war and they knew it. Be a leader, have courage, don’t compromise, and ignore them. Speed in war saves lives. Iraq should have been attacked in the summer of ’02 without warning.

2.Kill or capture all uniformed soldiers from the beginning. Make no deals with generals. No allowing anyone to disperse. All Iraqi soldiers from the initial conflict should be dead or in a concentration camp.

3.With thorough propaganda preceding us, it should be understood that any and all armed militias and leaders of those militias would be killed or captured whether they are in mosques, whether they are across borders, whether or not they have hostages or civilian shields. This is how it would work: We would be seeking to kill them. We would capture them if they volunteered an unconditional surrender.

4.Rogue cities like Fallujah would be destroyed. The people would have a chance to evacuate, unarmed. The men would be put in specific concentration camps. Then the city would be incinerated.

5.All of these procedures would be done as rapidly as militarily possible. No delays, no further warnings, no restraint.

6.Seal off borders. Kill anyone who tries to cross them.

7.Constant, relentless, and devastating exposes’ of our ideological enemies should be going on. This includes American media if necessary.

This Republican idea of compromising with nasty, disingenuous people, which includes Muslims, Democrats, and the media, is what is responsible for 90% of the casualties, both American and Iraqi. Now, as many of these policies that can be, should be done, and we don’t need to talk to anyone about it. They will initiate talks once we have finished.

The Republicans are probably the worst people in the world on propaganda. They think silence or near silence is the best answer to most accusations. There are plenty of people they could hire to run their propaganda department and the terrorists would look like fools, liars, and cowards to the entire world, and they would be blamed for all the civilian death.

Standing around just waiting for someone to shoot us, set off a IED, is all we are doing now. We're not fighting a war, we are just standing around like targets. The administration has fallen for the tactic of offering hope for negotiation of some kind while planning attacks. So like Lyndon Johnson, he restrains normal military tactics.

197 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:38:02am

Poitiers-Lepanto

Ok, I'll stop.

Like everything else in this age, allegiance is negotiable, I guess.

/sack cloth & ashes

198 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:39:18am

#188 HVT,

Why on earth would anyone listen to these morons now?

I see your worthless ass has come back to the room much to our chagrin. Did you get a chance to spit on any returning Vets yet coward?

199 SaneInMN  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:42:45am

196...

The Republicans are probably the worst people in the world on propaganda. They think silence or near silence is the best answer to most accusations.

True, but Republican's don't have ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, the BBC, NYT, WaPo, MsNBC, AP, Reuters, PBS, The Boston Globe, The Seattle Times, The Atlanta Constitution, The LA Times, The Guardien, etc. doing their bidding...FOR FREE!

200 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:45:39am

#187 Elric66

They are indifferent to our survival

Yes.

201 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:46:17am

#188, HVT. Are you a shitbird or a moby? Or a shitbird moby? The debate is still open.

202 Yank in the EU  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:46:31am

There are some absolutely strange comments by Robert Kaplan in his newest article, Debating Iraq: the Iraq Study Group.

The Group believes that a settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli problem will appeal to Iraq’s two troublesome neighbors. To wit, one of my stated reasons a half-decade ago for supporting regime change in Iraq was that—successfully executed—it might give the United States the strategic heft to terminate two untenable situations: the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia and that of Israeli troops in the occupied territories. An Israeli-Syrian accord that would return the Golan Heights to Syria’s control could be a long-range benefit to Israel rather than a betrayal of it. Syria’s increased militancy toward the Golan may indicate it is positioning itself for such a deal, brokered by the United States. But it could also be a deadly feint: getting back the Golan may be the last thing the Damascus regime really wants, as it would have to involve some level of Syrian diplomatic recognition of Israel and agreed limits as to the extent of Syrian involvement in southern Lebanon. It would also end an era of confrontation with Israel that would remove the raison d’etre for the tyranny with which every military regime in Syria, including the current one, has governed for over half a century.

Giving land to terrorist supporters could have a benefit to Israel, long term or short term? This also seems to suggest that Israel has not in the past and must now take the initiative in creating an autonomous Palestinian government. Did Kaplan already forget what happened when the IDF left Gaza? Wouldn't pulling out the troops that protect other settlements encourage the terrorist groups by sending the message that terrorism works?

Still, the Group does have a larger point here, especially about engaging Iran. It states that by openly seeking dialogue with Teheran we will call their bluff. If they are truly uninterested in improving the situation in Iraq, or in normalizing relations with us, the offer to negotiate will make this transparent for the world to see—including millions of Iranians. (Recently I wrote on The Atlantic’s Web site that if we drew-down forces without at least trying to engage the Iranians, we would bear all the guilt for a possible genocide of the Sunnis in 2007.) In fact, what the Iranians might actually fear is a very public American effort to engage them, while giving them no quarter on the nuclear issue. If there are splits within the regime in Teheran, and between the regime and its population, here is where we might see them.

What happened to "sitting down with terrorists legitimizes them"? Isn't this also to assume that Iran has some interest whatsover in seeing a stable, free and prosperous Iran?

Kaplan is saying that the ISG report is really pretty good. Crazy.

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

203 Yank in the EU  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:47:53am

#202 pimf: not Iran, Iraq

204 Silhouette  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:51:59am

#199 SaneInMN

ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, the BBC, NYT, WaPo, MsNBC, AP, Reuters, PBS, The Boston Globe, The Seattle Times, The Atlanta Constitution, The LA Times, The Guardien

(deep breath) elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, colleges, children's TV, evening sitcoms, mainstream movies, evening dramas, comedians, children's books, musicians, dictionaries (seriously), bookstores, comic strips,

205 legalpad  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:53:40am

#199 SaneInMN

True, but Republican's don't have ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, the BBC, NYT, WaPo, MsNBC, AP, Reuters, PBS, The Boston Globe, The Seattle Times, The Atlanta Constitution, The LA Times, The Guardien, etc. doing their bidding...FOR FREE!

I understand this. But this is not why they have lost and are losing the propaganda war. They lose it because they make no adequate response. Further, clearly, conservatives need to quit thinking about gay and abortion related legislation, legalize drugs, provide tax-subsidized medical insurance, and form a consortium to get seriously invested in media. Get control of a broadcast TV network instead of fighting these profitless battles. Too much is at stake. The lives and futures of their children and grandchildren are at stake. They understand collateral damage in war, they need to understand it in politics. Fight to expose and control the media. That is modern warfare. If we don't fight it we are just surrendering.

206 WrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:54:38am

NEWS FLASH: Look around....

WE ARE A PAPER TIGER!

If not an empty, hollow tiger.
(now I look forward to all the arm chair soldiers, who take no action but only comment on blogs to tell me how tough the U.S. is...this is the U.S. I comment on I remind you...not individuals)

We have become spoiled and weakened by our overwhelming success...we have come to expect everything to come to us because it has as a result of our ancestors hard work. But in this MTV, fast food generation, we think not of generations past and their occomplishments but of days or hours past. This generation consideres the 80's to be retro. Our nation has a short attention span...and because of this we only remember the good...not those who long ago fought & struggled to make it good.

If we refuse to struggle and fight as a nation....we deserve to lose.

207 funky chicken  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:57:37am

205 legalpad we already have taxpayer funded medical care. It's called Medicaid, Medicare, and all 50 states have their own supplemental policies that will cover kids whose families don't qualify for Medicaid for free.

The other points are well taken, especially IMHO on gay marriage and abortion. We can have those debates once the external threat has been defeated.

208 HVT  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:57:48am
ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, the BBC, NYT, WaPo, MsNBC, AP, Reuters, PBS, The Boston Globe, The Seattle Times, The Atlanta Constitution, The LA Times, The Guardien
(deep breath) elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, colleges, children's TV, evening sitcoms, mainstream movies, evening dramas, comedians, children's books, musicians, dictionaries (seriously), bookstores, comic strips,

I believe "Love it or Leave it" is the expression that applies.

209 legalpad  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:58:34am

#204 Silhouette

Good list. The media war is a broad front. But it is telling that Republicans have had as many victories as they have in spite of all this. It shows who is potentially available to fight the media/educational battles. But all of these areas, the entire list, is where the battles need to be fought. This is where everything will be won or lost.

210 CastorOil  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 7:59:00am

#195 Elric66
Where are the strong willed? I don't see a Winston Churchill nor a Margaret Thatcher on the horizon. Just blind leading the blind.
I'd like to dream that one day we'll stop depending on foreign oil, and all these scum regimes will go back into the dirt pile of history. As we stand today, they're blackmailing us. We're dependent, like junkies.

211 legalpad  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:05:53am

#207 Funky Chicken

we already have taxpayer funded medical care.

It needs to be improved so people will shut up about it. For instance, many people aren't getting checkups and thats the ball game with terminal illnesses. It could be improved with the existing structure, to deal with that segment who is actually not covered adequately. It needs to be a dead issue.

212 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:06:13am

#182 unreconstructed rebel


Defense rests.

Congrats! You have proven that no one past the age of 18 may become a dual citizen in the US. Unfortunately, your original claim that there is no such thing as someone with dual citizenship with the US is still bogus, and my example of someone born to an American and foreign parent still stands.

213 legalpad  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:11:01am

#208 HVT

"Love it or Leave it"

That's exactly what I have done since 2000. I get my news off the internet. I can read 70 stories to TV/radio's one, and verify them. But I would like to see some more moneyed conservatives move toward getting a major broadcast TV network, and advance on all the other areas of media/education. They should get into the real nuts and bolts of the media war.

214 HVT  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:18:24am

#196

Basic principles of advertising should be followed. For example, have sufficient repetition to make an impact on the public. There should be no embedded press. Controlling the media means controlling the war and controlling casualties.

Yes, the Goebbels technique truly has been underutilized.

There is clearly a balance in all media regarding the concept of the freedom of the press, freedom of speech. Every single media entity sifts through thousands of stories and bits of information and decides what will be heard. Most all of them edit it and slant it. If they have a problem with the propaganda team, they can be exposed

In your opinion, has Bush alredy given his Sportalast Speech, or is it still in the pipes?

215 Silhouette  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:22:34am

#209 legalpad

But it is telling that Republicans have had as many victories as they have in spite of all this.

I've said that many times. That the leftist viewpoint is blaring at us everywhere, all the time, for the past several decades, and STILL about half the people reject it speaks volumes for its message.

216 blackelkspeaks  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:23:33am

To #190 realwest:

You wrote: "I did leave NY to return to the state of my birth, North Carolina. And yes, some of my ancestors fought and died in the American War Between the States on the Confederate side. But rage, no matter what the provocation, that calls for Americans to kill Americans or to not retaliate when millions of Americans are killed by terrorists because of the "bitter hatred" of some Americans towards all those who were murdered is completly WRONG and, frankly, borderline crazy."

#179 Lizard wrote: "... In the very heart of the terrorist attacks, where 2,500 people lost their lives in a morning, where fires burned, ash rained, and smoke filled the air for weeks. In this place, less than 40% of the people could be counted on to help re-elect the man who brought the fight to our enemies. Sorry, but I find that deeply indefensable. I love New York, but I'd rather spend my time and energy defending South Carolina from terrorists if given the choice."

Wake up, realwest! Lizard has this exactly right! I'm calling the behavior of New Yorkers (and all their leftist fellow-travelers of whateever stripe) not borderline crazy, but outright crazy! I repeat my position: not one more brave American serviceman should be asked to risk life and limb to protect these traitorous b******s, whereever they are.

You better admonish your relatives to get out of New York (or LA or Chicago or London or Berlin or whereever). I won't support any kind of retaliation, nuclear or otherwise, for any place on this earth, in America or out, that has colluded with or enabled the Moslem hordes in their ongoing jihad against the West and that later experiences the grief of Moslem depradations.

217 Muadib  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:28:49am

#16 Maximu§

Iraq is not an American failure, its an Arab failure.

I agree. Given the chance to live free, they freely slaughter each other.

218 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:34:43am

#216, Selective-American. Kind of like Hispanic-American, African-American, Native-American. Citizenship and a political agenda all rolled into one. Arab-American. Muslim-American.
None of these types of "Americans" is identified by status in the Constitution. Are you suggesting writing a new one just for you? Or are you opting out of being an American? Do you want to take your ball, find another team, and make up your own rules? Be my guest.

219 realwest  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:36:19am

#216 blackelkspeaks - Enough! you and Lizard by the Bay win. ALL New Yorkers (and presumably all citizens of all states where such states voted for John Kerry) deserve whatever happens to them even though many of them voted for Bush.
And by all means, let's bring home the brave servicemen and women who are from New York first. Ya know, give the Islamofascits more "quasi" Americans to murder with a WMD, which such murders those who remain will not avenge, because, ya know their states voted for Bush.
Unfuckingbelivable.

220 MoonbatBane  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:38:22am

#5 FredLee 12/7/2006 07:46AM PST

The New York Post front page picture about the Iraq Study Report says it all: Surrender Monkeys!

Is the NY Post great or what?

221 MoonbatBane  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:39:42am

#12 mike(in)savage 12/7/2006 07:49AM PST

Naturally, the Baker group anticipated this reaction.

Right?

Anticipated it? Heck, it's what they want!

222 3 wood  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:39:56am

#61 grunt

I am afraid we will have to lose several more buildings, citizens and probably complete cities before this country will wake up and even then they will only become aware of it because the local mosque is blasting the news from their minarets

Agreed 100%.

I think it will be worse the next time. At least on 9-11 we had people in leadership postitions willing to take some action. Very shortly, we will mostly have people in leadership postions who only know how to run, blame America/Israel for everything, and appease the enemy.

I think the Dem's will do everything they can to quickly deconstruct our military and hamstring their ability to protect the country. In addition, the media has clearly chosen sides and has ended up favoring the terrorists.

I expect it to become open season on our embassies and americans around the world again, much like during Carter's 4 years, very soon. And I think we will lose several cities at least, before there will be a re-awakening.

223 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:40:50am

#216 blackelkspeaks

Black Elk speaks, but it is obvious you did not listen.


I won't support any kind of retaliation, nuclear or otherwise, for any place on this earth, in America or out, that has colluded with or enabled the Moslem hordes in their ongoing jihad against the West and that later experiences the grief of Moslem depradations.

What a truly absurd and asinine thing to say.

Real is right, Fuck You.

224 kepler2007  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:43:43am
“This report is a recognition of the limitation of American power,” said Abdel Moneim Said, head of Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic studies in Cairo. “In the short term, America will highly suffer the loss of its reputation and credibility in the region.” ...

In the long term however it will be a great victory for America if we leave. The Shia and Sunni will waste treasure and men in the coming civil war. It will tie down Iran and Saudi Arabia and perhaps draw them in. In fact I cannot see a better plan than us leaving. Now Baker is an idiot and a Arabite and his plan is useless but no more useless then the current "stay and pray" plan that we have now. Islam cannot exist with modern democracy at least not in its current form. The only way it works is if you kill all the clerics and anyone who causes trouble. If you are not going to do that (which we are not now) then get out and let Islam do itself in. Getting out of Iraq does not mean defeat. It means re-deploy our troops to battles that we can get wins from. The horn of Africa is a good example. Start helping non-muslims fight muslims instead of helping muslims in Iraq.

This is why Bush failed becuase he never explained who the enemy is. It is not terror or radical muslims but it is Islam itself.

Sad but true...

225 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:44:05am

GOD forbid this jihad comes to my mountain, but if it does, I will defend the life of every American here, including my moonbat in-laws that think I am insane right now.

ASSHOLE!

226 3 wood  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:44:18am

#67 American Soldier

I think about it all the time. If you have a living relative who fought that war, write down anything you can get them to tell you. When the participants and witnesses are gone, only the revisionists remain.

You ain't just kidding. I found out just the other day, for the first time in my life, that my father was wounded in the ribs during WWII. I was talking to him on the phone, he is having some rib pain, and he mentioned being wounded. Still won't talk about it though.

I have the diary of my maternal Grandfather from WWI. It is priceless to me, and I have transcribed it so as the original crumbles with age I do not lose the words.

227 funky chicken  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:44:36am

babba, I thought you might find this interesting: Jed Babbin on Rumsfeld

Few know that in early 2003 - a month or more before the Iraq invasion - President Bush was presented with two plans for post-war Iraq. The first, written by CIA Director George Tenet and Secretary of State Colin Powell, provided for a long occupation of Iraq and the nation-building that the president renounced in his 2000 campaign. The second, a Pentagon plan authored by Rumsfeld's team, provided for the establishment of a provisional government before the invasion and American withdrawal within months of Saddam's overthrow. The president, convinced by Powell that "if you break it, you own it", chose the Powell-Tenet plan and ordered Rumsfeld to carry it out.

When Baghdad fell, after the brief tenure of Gen. Jay Garner, the president appointed L. Paul Bremer III to govern Iraq under Rumsfeld's direction. But Bremer proved to be a loose cannon, endlessly circling around from Powell to Rice to the president to get permission to do whatever Rumsfeld didn't agree with. One Pentagon official involved closely told me Bremer's tenure was disastrous because of his continuing reliance on the group surrounding Adnan Pachachi, an old-time Sunni whose persuasion of Bremer to leave Sunni militants alone was one of the principal reasons the Sunni insurgency was able to gain strength. Bremer's decisions to disband the Iraqi army and delay the outlay of reconstruction funds alienated Iraqis almost completely. At about that time, the media began contriving the myths of Rumsfeld and Iraq.

All of those myths combined, in the minds of some defeated Republicans, to blame Mr. Rumsfeld for the election debacle of November. But that overlooks the facts presented by the Zogby poll in late October that showed 49% of Americans wanted the president to retain Rumsfeld, against 42% who wanted him gone. When that poll was taken, the president's job approval numbers were about ten points lower than Rumsfeld's "stay or go" polls.

228 mattm  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:45:33am

It's noce to see the dems and the ME terroists on the same page, again.

/sarc

229 blackelkspeaks  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:47:04am

#219 realwest wrote: "Enough! you and Lizard by the Bay win. ALL New Yorkers (and presumably all citizens of all states where such states voted for John Kerry) deserve whatever happens to them even though many of them voted for Bush. And by all means, let's bring home the brave servicemen and women who are from New York first. Ya know, give the Islamofascits more "quasi" Americans to murder with a WMD, which such murders those who remain will not avenge, because, ya know their states voted for Bush."

Well! You DO have a brain (sort of)! You just can't bring yourself to recognize the truth!

How's this for a benchmark. There are plenty of states in this country that voted for Bush. Pick one of those and move there. Get out of any state that voted otherwise. Pick up the pieces and start over. You'll at least be somewhere that will give you a fighting chance. Because we'll all have to do the same after the Moslems nuke America. Count on it!

230 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:48:42am

#227 funky chicken
Thanks.


RealWest, don't even bother.....

/be back later

231 legalpad  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:50:36am

#214 HVT - We don't need the Goebbels Technique, we simply need to relentlessly refute and expose the big lies and the big liars. I don't agree that any propaganda or propaganda techniques that can be used can be represented by Nazi techniques. Being like the Nazis is not the only alternative to Republican silence and inadequate participation in the propaganda war. Bush has yet to scratch the surface of what could be done in the media, and has no significant historical speeches yet to his credit. He simultaneously needs to walk the walk too. He needs to quit restraining the military with politics.

232 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:52:16am

#227, Funky chicken. Very interesting. A short and sweet summary of the "big ideas" of the past 4 years.

233 wrathofG-d  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:52:40am

With this we notice the unintended consequences of AMERICAN (we can blame it on "the libs" but it was a Republican Congress & Senate & Executive that got us to this point, & we still have a Republican Executive that is going to listen to this report) "compaaaaaasion" and complete misunderstanding of who the real world (not the pretty, sanatised, "don't hurt me with your breastfeeding or smoking near me" world the West lives in) works.

It is also the unintended consequences of the Liberal desire to discredit Bush, Republican policies and gain power! They never realised that when they attack "the war", and EVERY thing Bush does...it will affect the U.S. in general.

in short: We Screwed!

234 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:56:34am

As you judge so ye will be judged
the measure of mercy you show to your tribe will be the measure of mercy you are given at your own judgement.

Good Luck, Black Elk Speaks. You should keep that holy man's name out of your unwise mouth.

And NOW I will go rest a bit.

I'll leave a song too

235 kepler2007  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:57:33am

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that Islam is the enemy? Why is it so hard for Bush to see it? Infact many "so-called" conservatives who still support Bush get all weepy over Iraq like we just lost the war if we leave. We did not lose anything! We are removing our good and honest fighting men from a hell hole not worth the time to save.

Why not spend our time saving...

(1) Christians in Lebanon
(2) Buddhist in Thailand
(3) Helping India against Islam
(4) Helping Ethiopians fight Islam
(5) etc etc etc.....

?

I will take a lost battle becuase I fear if we stay we could lose the war against Islam.

What is more important to you?

236 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 8:58:25am

#229. E Pluibus Sepratist. Go live where you will be happy, by yourself. It is a free country, with open borders at the state lines. Property is still cheap up by Ruby Ridge. No one but the FBI or Fish and Game is likely to bother you there. You will be with your own elk.

237 HVT  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:02:04am

#231

We don't need the Goebbels Technique, we simply need to relentlessly refute and expose the big lies and the big liars.

The midterms were a good example of that kind of exposure and refutation, don't you think?

238 m  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:05:00am
How's this for a benchmark. There are plenty of states in this country that voted for Bush.

That would require the whole state actually voting for Bush. And the other whole states not.

NC - definitely a redstate. Charlotte, NC? Blue as hell.

Your reasoning is missing reason.

239 SaneInMN  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:06:31am

BabbaZee, realwest...

True Story...

A few days after 9-11, I found myself at a bar in Morgantown, WV. A friend of a friend overheard our conversation, and stated that 9-11 was not our problem, and that it only represented a fight for those who lived in NYC or Wash DC. He went on to say that anyone who lived in such places had it comming to them, as no one in their right mind would call such cities home. After being physically restrained by a friend, I attempted to explain to this moron that NYC and Wash DC were cities that existed within the US, their citizens were protected by the Constitution, etc. No use. Their exists in this country a large minority of people who think in a very parochial manner, and much of that thinking exists in rural areas.

My attitude has changes somewhat from that incident, now over 5 years ago. I am very disappointed in the majority of NY'ers. They permitted and participated in the near riots that occurred during the RNC. They openly tolerated, with next to no counter rally, demonsrations calling for the execution of the artists who produced the mohammed cartoons. NYC council members openly call for riots against police officers over an incident that has yet to be investigated. They vote in a Senator that obtained her NY residency a day before the election. Currently, the leadershiop of NYC, including the idiot mayor, regards smoking and transfat as greater threats to the average NY'er than terrorism. And after criminally wasting millions of Homeland Security dollars, they cry foul when the Administration stops awarding them the lions share of the budget. I'm not calling for a civil war with NYC, or any other part of America, but I am SORELY DISAPPOINTED in areas like NYC.

BTW, the Navy is pissed off at San Francisco...so pissed off in fact, that they will not commission their latest ship in San Francisco, instead they will port her in San Diego. Go Navy!

240 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:07:33am

# 237, HVT. Not having to balance his words against preserving RINO seats should provide Bush the opportunity to speak his mind in a far more open manner. He has nothing to lose.

241 funky chicken  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:08:22am

227 gymnast Yes, very interesting. It makes me wonder if Powell and Tenant weren't behind all of the Rumsfeld hatred and leaked stories to try to make him and the military look bad etc.

We know Powell's right hand man Armitage was behind the Plame leak, and it was Tenant who chose to blow that up into a huge mess that targeted Cheney's staff. I think Joe Wilson let the cat out of the bag that Cheney was the target when he wrote the op-ed that said he had gone tea sipping in Niger at the VPs request...and that his ridiculous report was read by the VP.

/dunno

242 blackelkspeaks  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:13:01am

#223 BabbaZee wrote:

"Black Elk speaks, but it is obvious you did not listen."

When I wrote: "I won't support any kind of retaliation, nuclear or otherwise, for any place on this earth, in America or out, that has colluded with or enabled the Moslem hordes in their ongoing jihad against the West and that later experiences the grief of Moslem depradations.", your retort was "What a truly absurd and asinine thing to say. Real is right, Fuck You."

It seems you and realwest are blood brothers. Your preferred technique is ad hominem attacks and non sequiter arguments. For someone who constantly posts biblical quotes and prophecy, whatever happened to "Love your enemies" and "Blessed are the peacemakers". Why, by your way of thinking, if the Moslems commit some horrific atrocity, we all should do exactly as I'm suggesting, that is, "Pray", and nothing else. We should be pleased that this is now official US policy. I'm suggesting we should accept the wisdom of this approach and go all the way. That is, let it all happen. And never retaliate.

243 legalpad  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:14:50am

#237 HVT

The midterms were a good example of that kind of exposure and refutation, don't you think?

No. I don't think American politicians or media have even addressed the most important issues. When have Republicans addressed the falseness of the media? Of the U.N.? Of the Palestians or Hezbollah? When have they even discussed the only issue relevant in immigration, citizenship?
And on taxes, who has repeatedly emphasized that tax revenues are higher when taxes are lower? No - some fool says something inane about "tax cuts for the rich" and nobody slams them for being the fool they are.

244 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:16:10am

#239 SaneInMN

I know I'm supposed to rest,
{I havent slept in almost 36 hours now...}

but

alling for a civil war with NYC, or any other part of America, but I am SORELY DISAPPOINTED in areas like NYC.

I am disappointed in the whole MFing world
and almost everyone in it

That does not mean
I am willing to lay down one shred of life
in my vicinity of dominion,
not even a fucking a blade of grass
to the Islamic Beasts
who ride
on Gramscian Whores
straight into the abomination that causes desolation.


Not Now

Not EVER

NOT ONE AMERICAN LIFE

that I will not defend ideologically,
as now,
or physically...
if GOD Forbid,
the days of torches and pitchforks
ever arrives here.

L'CHAIM, MUTHA FUCKAS!

GOD BLESS AMERICA
GOD BLESS ISRAEL

pray Psalm 83

And now.... to the nap

245 Muadib  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:18:13am

#225 BabbaZee

GOD forbid this jihad comes to my mountain, but if it does, I will defend the life of every American here, including my moonbat in-laws that think I am insane right now.

Spoken by a true American. That's the attitude that makes this country so great. BabbaZee, I'll fight by your side anytime.

246 m  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:21:12am
Why, by your way of thinking, if the Moslems commit some horrific atrocity, we all should do exactly as I'm suggesting, that is, "Pray", and nothing else. We should be pleased that this is now official US policy.

Ha! Wanna tell my cousin, who has taken two tours in Iraq that it's now the official policy?

*snicker*

Good luck with that.

Or maybe my son's best friend's dad. Who just got back? Wanna tell him that?

You aren't that brave.

247 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:21:15am

This is yet another example for the strong horse /weak horse argument espoused by the likes of Osama.

when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse. This is only one goal; those who want people to worship the lord of the people, without following that doctrine, will be following the doctrine of Muhammad, peace be upon him. (UBL quotes several short and incomplete Hadith verses, as follows): "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad." "Some people may ask: why do you want to fight us?" "There is an association between those who say: I believe in one god and Muhammad is his prophet, and those who don't (...inaudible...) "Those who do not follow the true fiqh. The fiqh of Muhammad, the real fiqh. They are just accepting what is being said at face value."

This also serves as a warning to anyone who might want to consider being allies with the US down the road. The warning is simple. Don't. We don't have the stomach for a long term commitment beyond a few years because US strategic policy is limited to no more than eight years, if that long. Indeed, it seems to be limited to five years at most, before reverting and seeking out the ideas of administrations gone by for ideas that didn't pan out then either (aka the Baker boys psuedorealism).

248 SaneInMN  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:26:08am

247...

This also serves as a warning to anyone who might want to consider being allies with the US down the road. The warning is simple. Don't.

Exactly.

249 DANEgerus  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:34:32am

ISG round ups here and here

“Abu Baker.” Perfect. -- Allahpundit

"The report is strange, to say the least — like a depressed doctor who makes the proper diagnosis of a formidable brain tumor, but then in panic prescribes hip surgery." -- Victor Davis Hanson

"...the ISG report is an analytic embarrassment." -- NRO editors

"[Tim Russert's] even giddier than Syria is, albeit not by much." -- Allahpundit

"Let's say 10 sages get together and are asked, "What is 2 + 2?" If half of them say 4 and the other half say 2, it is not admirable that, in order to achieve consensus, they unanimously agree to tell everyone that the answer is 3. It is, to the contrary, moronic — and, if the said consensus error is to be the foundation of national security policy, it is perilous." -- Andy McCarthy

"The word “should” is frequently abused in this document — used 182 times — a normative command not backed up by much reasoning." -- James S. Robbins

"Do we really believe that Iran and Syria fear chaos in the region, when chaos alone gives them a reprieve from U.S., U.N., and European scrutiny about serial assassination, terrorist promotion, and nuclear acquisition? For all the Arabist solidarity rhetoric, compared to the frightening specter of a democratic and prosperous Iraq on their borders, a returned Golan Heights, or Israeli-free West Bank means little to Syria or Iran. Did we learn after the unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon and Gaza, or the pre-9/11 American sudden flight from Lebanon and Somalia, that perceptions are far more important in the Middle East than even land? " -- Victor Davis Hanson

"You had the chance to vote for appeasement or to vote for war. You have voted for appeasement, and you shall get war." -- Winston Churchill, to parliament, 1940

250 tantraman  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:43:08am

Invading Iraq was always going to be a bad move in the War on Terror. We got it wrong from the start.

251 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:46:06am

Does this mean I have to start smoking Gitanes cigs and wearing a beret?

252 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:46:14am
253 Yank in the EU  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:46:40am

Tantraman

Yeah, we'd all be better off with Saddam's nuclear project (the NY Times documented the fact that Iraq was months away from nukes) steaming ahead and with his open state sponsorship of terrorism, including within his own borders.

/sarc

254 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:50:55am

#250 tantraman

Invading Iraq was always going to be a bad move in the War on Terror

Only if you expected the American people to have the spine of a jellyfish.

255 BabbaZee  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:54:40am

#245 Muadib

;~)

Right back at ya.

Well that's 2 - according to the rule of Gideon we only need 298 more. And I am certain we can raise more than that right here.

/Later Lizardia

256 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:59:00am

Can any body get in their thick skulls that for Bush to ignore what his intel people were telling him and just let it roll would have been the grossest dereliction of his duty?

257 tantraman  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 9:59:05am
months away from nukes

LOL.

258 m  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:01:09am

BabbaZee ~ M reporting for duty!

/difference is, I'll actually report for duty!
//that's 3!

259 Yank in the EU  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:03:10am

Tantraman

Just remember, you laugh at the journalism of the NY Times, bastion of liberalism in America.

LGF: Thank You, President Bush

260 m  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:03:16am

Can I start with mantraman?
He needs some edumacation, he does.

mantra- read Mayada, daughter of Iraq then get back to me with the "iraq was just rosey and not a threat to anyone" meme.

261 Muadib  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:05:05am

#250 tantraman

Was there a better place to invade? Perhaps we should have just chased OBL as he ran from one country to another.

Radical Islam knows no boundaries, Saddam Hussein was a murderous thug, and Iraq was a perfectly good target. And there's a lot more targets over there.

262 tantraman  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:11:49am

And just how was the invasion and long-term occupation of Iraq going to help in the War on Terror? It's just like the War on Drugs where our belligerent efforts to solve a problem actually make it worse.

263 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:21:28am
264 I_Invented_Al_Gore  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:23:32am
But others worried about the consequences if the U.S. follows the Iraq Study Group’s suggestions, warning that the report could fuel insurgents and others vying to fill Iraq’s security vacuum.

Did Baker and the other Pillars of Jello see this consequence coming? I sure did.

265 Psychobarb  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:23:43am

#112: WriterMom:

I agree about the UK Chief Rabbi. I met him last June. He is soft-spoken but writes very well and has an excellent grasp of most issues. I was impressed that, in his High Holiday 2005 message, he mentioned being, for the first time in his memory, uncomfortable about being Jewish in the UK due to rising anti-Semitism and he did not shy away from the issue of lack of Muslim integration.

He's one of the leaders talking about British values. Lord knows the Archibishop of Canterbury seems to talk in gibberish half the time. Hope I haven't offended anyone.

At times like these, you realize religious leaders, the Pope, the Archbishop and Chief Rabbis are criticial to helping people think critically.

THINK PEOPLE, THINK!

266 Stuck-in-CA  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:36:41am

At this point Westerners are just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. They will just let the band play while the ship goes down and pretend not to notice they are getting wet.

267 tantraman  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:40:07am
its just the reasons are not clear, even to POTUS, Rumsfeld or Powell.

OK - but that does not absolve them of their responsibility for the Iraq disaster.

268 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:45:22am

#262 Tantraman

By removing a tyrant who supported terror.
By gaining strategic bases next to the largest supporters of terror in the world. Iraq and Syria.

I could go on and on but why bother. Your and idiot and can't get your mind around it.

Not enough liberals have been slaughtered yet. But its coming.
Its been too long since you guys were scared shitless and hiding under your desks on 9/11.

269 spinoneone  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:54:12am

Everyone seems to miss a few facts.
1. Muhammad, on his death bed, condemend the Jews as a people and called on his followers to eliminate them from the earth.
2. Muslims believe Muhammad was "the perfect man" and that all he said, did, and believed had the sanction of Allah.
3. Therefore, elimination of the Jews is a religious duty of all Muslims.
4. The exhortation to eliminate or enslave or convert the infidels, and especially the Jews, occurs at least 10 times in the Qu'uran.

We should also remember that if a neighbor is beating his wife to death on the neighbor's front lawn the rest of the community should step in and stop it, especially if the police do not respond [UN in this case]. Never forget that the perp will eventually kick-in your door, and then it is too late.

270 wanumba  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:54:44am

Got it from the horse's mouth yesterday - the Democrat Left's plan is to force President Bush out of office. So, for those of us who'd suspected that has been the current strategy - reliving Watergate, with pulling down a sitting GOP president - a hard core Dem just blurted it out.
I know a lot people on this blog will say, duh, (which is why I hang around this venue instead of say, Huffington,) but the Left, with the complicity of the MSM and our enemies, has been obscuring the view that would show a coup in progress.

271 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 10:59:47am
272 Idle Drifter  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:01:39am

What do we gain at this moment in history of defeatist thinking? At this moment if we do pull out of Iraq we should not forget our true allies in the area, the Kurds and Israel. Since the Shiite and Sunnis are currently fighting; the Kurds are one of the few minorities that actually get the whole idea of peace. Should Iraq fall, the US should support the Kurds and push for the recognition of a Kurdish state in the region. Its placement would be a serious road block for any ambitions from Iran to make any power moves in the Middle East. Protecting and empowering the Kurds in such a way can still mean a serious US presence. Any attack on the new nation would be all the justification needed for a US intervention, especially after the US has gained time to refit its military with new equipment and pass on its battle harden knowledge to future soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines. Despite claims that US military is incapable of fighting Urban Warfare by our enemies as well as by the peaceniks, the US military and her Allied forces actually have gained much in knowledge to fight and counter any new developments by any future aggressors. Time to think of what we as the Free World can do to save what can be saved and cut away the dead weight holding back any useful policy that can truly counter Tehran. Israel can take care of herself but with a Kurdish State, pressure can be relieved.

273 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:02:05am

#270 Wanumba

Dude. If you want to know what hard core libs want, it is not hard to figure out. Think the Carter years.

274 tantraman  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:06:01am
By gaining strategic bases...

And if the Iraqis exercise their new democratic power and demand that there be no such bases? Is our commitment to democracy strong enough to override our desire for permanent bases?

It seems the rhetoric about supporting democracy in the Middle East only lasts as long as our interests are being looked after. The USA has an inglorious history in the Middle East of either actively overturning democracy or getting into bed with anti-democratic regimes as long as it in their interest to do so.

275 Muadib  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:09:29am

#262 tantraman

We went into Iraq to remove a sadistic dictator from power, verify once and for all (without the Hanz Blix/UN style pussyfooting) that Iraq did or did not posses WMD. Based on the intelligence of the time, invading Iraq was long overdue. Do you think that the many tens of thousands of Iraqis that were murdered by the Hussein regime were not experiencing TERROR as they died? Saddam Hussein harbored terrorists, rewarded terrorists, and is a terrorist himself.

What should we do, as powerful Free People, when we see the horrible atrocities committed against the defenseless people of this world? I say we act first by stopping the atrocities. Then negotiations can start.

Go USA. Imposing Freedom, one country at a time.

276 CowardKerry  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:10:30am

#268 Hous

I was going to jump in, but you handled the dolt adequately.

277 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:12:00am

#274 Tantraman

Ahh, there it is.
The blame America leftist bullshit. Always close at hand. Always ready to be pulled out. (Can't wait till you start complaining about the Indians)
Your paradise is waiting. Its called Cuba.

The USA has an inglorious history in the Middle East of either actively overturning democracy or getting into bed with anti-democratic regimes as long as it in their interest to do so.

What democratic regimes have we overturned in the mid-east?

278 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:13:50am

#276 cowardkerry


The day these idiots sign up to fight for something they believe in is the day hell freezes over. They are cowards to the core.

279 Aladin Sane  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:18:22am

Sorry, late to the thread.

Rush was talking about what qualifications the ISG had in preparing their report/recommendations. He mentioned that only one of the authors had been to Iraq more than once.

It then occured to me that this report had nothing to do with what was happening in Iraq, it had more to do with the politics back home...

280 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:25:17am
281 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:25:37am

.............waitin on those democratic countries we overturned.

282 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:30:28am
283 Edward Halper  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:34:09am

These guys are probably right about one thing: the report spells the end of democracy in Iraq and of our efforts to promote it. But the losers are not us as much the Iraqis and the entire Arab world.

Most of the media seem anxious to call what is going on in Iraq a "civil war" rather than "sectarian violence" as the Bush administration prefers. I wonder, though, whether the violence in Iraq could be a civil war in any ordinary sense. There are clearly armed factions, but they don't seem to be fighting each other. They are rather going after civilians on the other side. This cannot be part of a military strategy, could it? That's why it's hard to call it "civil war." The combatants may be interested in terrorizing the other side supposing that they will concede power. If so, we could perhaps call it a "campaign of mutual terror." But it's hard to see this as their strategy either because it's hard to see what either side would really expect to gain.

I want to suggest another interpretation. The violence in Iraq is a form of brutal and deadly political theater. It is carried by militias on people whom they regard as expendable--people from the opposite side--with the sole aim of demonstrating to Americans that our military is ineffectual in stabilizing the country and that we are therefore losing this war.

If this is right, then we can see, first, how effective they have been. Americans are concerned about the extremely high level of Iraqi casualties. Second, the strategy undermines their propaganda claims about the brutality of America and depends on our "softness" (as al Qaeda supposes us). Third, and most intriguing: if the media walked away from Iraq the violence would cease!

284 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:38:00am
285 THX-42  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:39:10am

#283 Edward Halper

Third, and most intriguing: if the media walked away from Iraq the violence would cease!

Exactly right. The only enemies that have ever "defeated" the US military are the media and the US Congress. Yes, you heard that right. The term is "enemies".

286 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 11:49:11am

#282 Song...

Possible. But he would be wrong as you say.
Gotta luv the lefts alternate history.


Fantasylandistan?
Atlantis?
Moonbatland?
Mesopatamia?


..........still waitin.

287 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 12:12:01pm

Decisions are made and actions are routinely recommended by committees that any sane person would immediately recognize as the worst possible course of action.

288 Maximu§  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 12:14:08pm

#262 tantraman
And just how was the invasion and long-term occupation of Iraq going to help in the War on Terror? It's just like the War on Drugs where our belligerent efforts to solve a problem actually make it worse.

Child, do you have any idea WTF your talking about?....perhaps your just parroting what your teachers say, but that BS is not gonna fly in here, maybe at the local Starbucks.

The smartest bloggers on the net are right here in LGF...now go pop your pimples.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

289 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 12:15:35pm

Maybe the ISG report would look better if they stuck an apple in it's mouth and garnished it with parsley.

290 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 12:19:43pm
291 transferthem  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 12:33:10pm

The 'F*** the Jews they don't vote for us anyway" Baker report proposes to put America's closest and only democratic ME ally to the sword so the horrid islamists will like America.

Yeah! And this Jewish boy is the Pope!

292 gymnast  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 12:37:27pm

#288, Maximus. Tantrama is just a snot nosed shitbird troll who huffs on 88 octane because it is more environmentally friendly than high test. His use-by date is getting close to expiration if he doesn't flat line first.

293 nodhimmimate  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 12:55:10pm

Chin up America

I think I have found your Churchill.

"No Substitute for Victory"
The Defeat of Islamic Totalitarianism
by John Lewis

A lecture at the Ayn Rand Institute

I copied it on my site, a long read but I don't have a link to it..sorry

read about "unconditional surrender" of Islam.

294 Kohenan The Barbarian  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 2:51:22pm

The U.S. will never leave their Military Airbase positions in western Iraq--even if they stand down and let the [bigoted word]s continue to butcher each other in sectarian violence uninterrupted for a millenium--the Saudis will sweeten the deal to linger with low oil prices to keep the lid on the Iranian and Syrian Suni regional power grab--the vast majority of Muslims %90 who are the orthodox Shia are hoping that Iranian nuclear aspirations are destroyed even if accomplished by those unwelcome Zionist Jews!--- despite the admirable aspirations of removing Sadam then stabilizing and democratizing this region ,it has cost America dearly in lives and dollars--Islam is a quagmire of instability and the best we can accomplish is to reduce the risk of terror and weapons of mass destruction from falling into the hands of any of these Lunatic Strongholds.

295 missouri boy  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 2:51:51pm

Quote by Reagan:
America has never been attacked for being too strong.

296 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 3:42:17pm

Tantraman?


Still waiting.......

Maybe call one of your history teachers?

Here. This might help.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Print it out, tape it to the wall, then throw a dart at it. Whatever country it hits, claim it was the democracy we overturned.

297 EE  Thu, Dec 7, 2006 4:55:48pm

Mark Steyn has provided a description of the James Baker approach in the Iraq Study Group report: punish our friends, in order to try to reward our enemies for killing us.

The lesson that the world would learn if we followed the Baker plan is that it is better to be an enemy of the US than its friend.


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