LGF

Huge Crowd Protests Against Islamic Rule in Turkey

Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 8:26:17 am PDT

Here’s some good news to start off a Sunday morning, as more than a million people took to the streets of Istanbul to protest against Islamic rule of Turkey.

ISTANBUL, Turkey - At least 300,000 Turks waving the red national flag flooded central Istanbul on Sunday to demand the resignation of the government, saying the Islamic roots of Turkey’s leaders threatened to destroy the country’s modern foundations.

Like the protesters — who gathered for the second large anti-government demonstration in two weeks — Turkey’s powerful secular military has accused Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of tolerating radical Islamic circles.

They want to drag Turkey to the dark ages,” said 63-year-old Ahmet Yurdakul, a retired government employee who attended the protest.

Exactly right. The protesters are saying the same things we’ve been saying at LGF for years (and getting slammed by the left for it).

The military said Friday night that it was gravely concerned and indicated it was willing to become more openly involved in the process — a statement some interpreted as an ultimatum to the government to rein in officials who promote Islamic initiatives.

Sunday’s crowd chanted that the presidential palace was “closed to imams.” Some said Parliament Speaker Bulent Arinc was an enemy of the secular system, because he said the next president should be “pious.”

In the 1920s, with the Ottoman Empire in ruins, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk imposed Western laws, replaced Arabic script with the Latin alphabet, banned Islamic dress and granted women the right to vote.

The ruling party, however, has supported religious schools and tried to lift the ban on Islamic head scarves in public offices and schools. Secularists are also uncomfortable with the idea of Gul’s wife, Hayrunisa, being in the presidential palace because she wears the traditional Muslim head scarf.

“We don’t want a covered woman in Ataturk’s presidential palace,” said Ayse Bari, a 67-year-old housewife. “We want civilized, modern people there.”

A protester holds a placard showing a bulb, the symbol of the ruling AK Party, wrapped with a black chador during a rally to oppose the AK Party’s presidential candidate in Istanbul April 29, 2007. Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul refused on Sunday to withdraw from Turkey’s presidential vote, ignoring pressure from the army and calls from tens of thousands of demonstrators worried about his Islamist past. Placard reads “We are aware of danger”. REUTERS/Osman Orsal (TURKEY)

UPDATE at 4/29/07 8:41:45 am:

The article above seriously understates the attendance at this rally; there were more than a million people.

ISTANBUL (AFP) - More than one million people took part in a mass rally here Sunday in support of secularism and democracy amid a tense stand-off between the Islamist-rooted government and the army over presidential elections.

The crowd, carrying red-and-white Turkish flags and portraits of founding father Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, filled Istanbul’s sprawling Caglayan square in a demonstration organized by some 600 non-governmental organizations.

“Turkey is secular and will remain secular,” “Neither Sharia, nor coup d’etat, democratic Turkey,” they chanted.

Advertisement

213 comments

  • Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 Carridine  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:27:25am

Well, God bless Turkey!

Some common uncommon sense!

2 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:28:27am

Remember- Muslims are always the first victims of Islamist insanity

3 legalpad  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:28:55am

So why wasn't this in the news?

4 Carridine  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:29:05am

It was the Revolution of the Young Turks that released Baha'u'llah from decades of imprisonment as a 'political' Prisoner.

Let's NOT go back to pre-Ataturk times or means...

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:29:19am

Yahoo pic

A protester holds a placard showing a bulb, the symbol of the ruling AK Party, wrapped with a black chador during a rally to oppose the AK Party's presidential candidate in Istanbul April 29, 2007. Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul refused on Sunday to withdraw from Turkey's presidential vote, ignoring pressure from the army and calls from tens of thousands of demonstrators worried about his Islamist past. Placard reads "We are aware of danger". REUTERS/Osman Orsal (TURKEY)

6 elevenbravo1969  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:31:09am

More power to the (reasonable) Turks!

7 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:31:55am

Will they complain of "infidel influences" now that their own people are tired of them?

8 St. Pancake  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:32:52am

Great picture, Troutster!

Whether or not, Turkey is allowed into the EU is really going to depend on this particular issue. Keep abreast of the news, folks.

9 EC Marm  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:32:56am

Can we export some of that kind of thinking to Iraq and Iran?

10 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:33:27am
Exactly right. The protesters are saying the same things we’ve been saying at LGF for years (and getting slammed by the left for it).

The protesters will get slammed by the left too. They're all on the payroll of the Zionist oil companies or whatever the boogie phrase is these days.

11 shug  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:33:28am

countdown to CAIR endorsing these comments in

3,000,000,000,000,000,000,000...

2,999,999,999,999,999,999,999...

2,999,999,999,999,999,999,998...

2,999,999,999,999,999,999,997...

2,999,999,999,999,999,999,996...

12 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:34:40am

#5 Killgore Trout

That's incandescent! How dare they show such an earth-unfriendly bulb!

13 Abu Bin Squid  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:38:09am

Why is the winged-pig still in the hanger?

14 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:39:31am

"Until 1918 the Arabian peninsula was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, so called because it had the same amount of intelligence and energy as a footstool."
--P.J. O'Rourke, Give War A Chance (1993)

15 Sol Roth  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:39:39am

A glimmer of the hoped for Islamic Reformation.

16 rabidsquirrel  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:40:34am
The military said Friday night that it was gravely concerned and indicated it was willing to become more openly involved in the process — a statement some interpreted as an ultimatum to the government to rein in officials who promote Islamic initiatives.

A coup against the Islamists? Surely that's Haraam.

17 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:41:27am

OK, what's the bright idea?

18 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:41:36am

#5, Killgore Trout

"We Are Aware Of Danger" should be a rotating title.

19 Shug  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:41:53am

I am waiting for these types of protests in London, England, ...Paris, France ... and Deabrorn, Michigan

/waiting


//still waiting

///growing old waiting

20 easy  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:43:35am

#16 rabidsquirrel

A coup against the Islamists? Surely that's Haraam.


Depends upon how infiltrated the ranks are.

21 Carridine  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:44:57am
"Islamic initiatives"

I haven't seen ANY of these.

I HAVE seen Islamic reprisals, Islamic repressions, Islamic protests, Islamic arson, Islamic misogyny, Islamic beheadings, Islamic terrorism...

...but nary an 'initiative'. Nope.

22 6patrick6  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:45:02am

Some of you folks are very, very quick to trash the Turks much of the time. They are well aware of their history and the reasons their government is set up as it is today. I think most modern Turks, regardless of their location in the country, do NOT want to see Turkey revert to a 7th Century mindset - indeed, they are probably the most forward-thinking Muslim-majority nation out there today. Some of you are thinking "that isn't saying much", but it's a damn sight better than most of the other Muslim-majority/Muslim-ruled nations out there.

23 thabo  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:45:21am

#13: abu bin squid

due to an impending court case, brought by the UCLA, the winged pig has been replaced by some other winged animal of indeterminate origin for feer of upsetting some people.

24 P. Aaron  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:45:34am
The article above seriously understates the attendance at this rally; there were more than a million people.

What is it with the pack (PAC) media and their love of dictators/dictatorships and their disdain/distrust of free governments/peoples?

25 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:46:25am

Turkish government condemns army


The military, which has ousted four governments in the past 50 years, issued a toughly worded statement on Friday expressing concern over the elections and said it was ready to act in defence of the secular system separating state and religion.

IIRC, Pakistan was set up the same way. I think the only way a predominantly Muslim country can maintain a Demoncracy is to have the Military be the guardian and keep the government secular.
Unfourtunately, I suspect our real failure in Iraq is not folowing Attaturk's model.

26 dewie  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:46:25am

#9 EC Marm

"Can we export some of that kind of thinking to Iraq and Iran?"

Hell we could use some of that here in the good Ol' USA as well !

27 BathTub  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:46:26am

I love that image of the covered light-bulb. Sums things up fairly well.

28 PatFromGermany  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:47:50am

OT: Wow what an eye opener 0o

User Just a Grunt directed my view to this testimony.

Actually this is quite amazing since since this describes muslims in a nutshell.

smalltown U.S.A.
MUST read

sorry for any redundancy or off-topicishness ;-), I didn't mean to bother

29 Shug  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:47:57am

22 6patrick6

I will go so far as to say it's a damned site better than France or England where sharia is becoming the law of the land

30 firebreather  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:48:48am

Atta--Turk!

Even at their worst, the Ottomans were always better than the retrograde Arabs.

31 realwest  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:51:00am

Charles - re: your Update - over a million people is a HUGE story! I posted a brief link to this on today's dead thread and the Associated(with Terrorists)Press said tens of thousands.
Where did you find the over 1,000,000 story (since it was AP I figured they'd underreport the numbers, but not by that much)?

32 brakes  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:51:32am

Good for the protesters, I hope they succeed in ousting the Islamists. Still, I don't want a majority Muslim country in the EU. They have a long way to go before they're ready to be part of Europe.

Maybe acknowledge the Armenian massacre.

33 St. Pancake  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:51:32am

Hello, Pat aus Deutschland.
Yes, that is a tremendous read.

We need to check on the German view of this demonstration as they are one of the groups which seems to be veering away from the Turks. Merkel, it is believed, is not crazy about Turkey's admittance into the EU.

34 firebreather  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:52:17am

Has the MSM denounced the demonstration as both "anti-Democratic" & "anti-Islamic"?

In the MSM's warped worldview, Islam = Democracy.

35 Cry of defiance and not of fear  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:53:19am

Is that the light bulb Barack Hussein Obama is 'working on' dealing with?

#3 legalpad: Actually, it is covered with a huge colour photo on the Daily Telegraph (London). Some Lizards only come out at night, remember?

As a Prime Minister of England was wont to say:

"Events, dear boy, events."

We should keep the Big Picture in mind:
a million Turks protesting against sharia
150,000 Iranian women arrested for protesting against sharia

We're inclined to view the war only from our side; these folk are looking at the war from behind prison bars. If they are speaking up, under such conditions, we have no excuse for our silence.

36 AW  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:53:58am

Islamophobes!

37 Terp Mole  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:55:05am

Meanwhile @ Harvard, moonbats rage for terrorists;

Gonzales heckled at Harvard Law School reunion as he poses for picture with old classmates

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. - A small group of student protesters, including one wearing a black hood and an orange jumpsuit, heckled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales as he posed with old classmates Saturday during their 25-year Harvard Law School reunion.

"When the photographer was getting everybody set up and having people say ’cheese,’ the protesters yelled: ’say torture, instead,’ ’resign’ and ’I don’t recall,’" said Nate Ela, a protester and third-year student.

Law school spokesman Mike Armini said the impromptu protest was so small that some of those attending the photo shoot did not notice it.

38 Mats  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:56:22am

oh, how come these Muslims don't want to live under the rule of Islam, which have worked so well everywhere else? Clearly, these turkish men and women have been brainwashed by the Zionists!

39 realwest  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:57:01am

#22 6patrick6 - Whoa, easy there! Some of us do criticize Turkey, perhaps unfairly, but please remember that the Turks are, in large measure anti-semitic ("Mein Kamp" was, IIRC, still #1 on Turkey's best seller list) and they haven't been as cooperative as they perhaps could've been in Iraq (I know, it's the Kurds)but I don't think most of us are as down on Turkey as you fear.
I do agree with your statement "...they are probably the most forward-thinking Muslim-majority nation out there today.", however.

40 Thanos  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:57:18am

300,000 Demonstrated in Karachi last week against extremism, it got little play. Trying to find the website with the good pics. The crowd was much larger than the "cartoon jihad" demonstration there as well.

41 pat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:58:50am

One milllion sane people against 69 million cultists.

42 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:01:40am

#37, Terp Mole

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. - A small group of student protesters, including one wearing a black hood and an orange jumpsuit...

He's lucky.
He got to volunteer.

43 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:01:54am

A few protest babes from Getty images...
Babe #1

Babe #2

and
An ugly Islamist

44 FrogMarch  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:04:14am

Fabulous. that is great news.

45 BigZ  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:04:59am

I guess the Turks aren't listening to the Dems over here, either Harry Reid - "The war is lost" or John Edwards - "There is no war"

46 simonml  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:05:11am

I hate to be a downer, but banning Muslim dress is a little extreme. Freedom of religion is important for the success of any secular government. It might have been important for Ataturk to ban it 90 years ago, but I think it is harmful now.

Yes, I know the hijab and niqab are mysognistic, but you should be free to believe whatever you want, no matter how asinine it may be.

On a positive note, good for secular Turks for fighting for what is best for the future of their country as opposed to letting radicals roll over them. I wish they'd get more coverage in the MSM.

47 St. Pancake  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:06:02am
48 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:07:52am

#47 St. Pancake

Yurks? Is that a Turk who wants to be a Yurpeeon?

49 cry of defiance and not of fear  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:08:28am

#30 firebreather: Under the Ottomans, at least 300,00 Christian boys, aged about 6, were required as "tribute" from their Christian villages, to serve as janissaries under the caliph. They were forced to become Moslem, pressed into service, never saw their homes or families again. Under this same empire, hundreds of thousands of women were enslaved, usually Christian women from Europe or Africans, as sex slaves in the harems which 19th-century orientalists tended to romanticise. The Ottomans tried several times to conquer all of Western Europe and were only stopped at the Gates of Vienna. The Ottomans made a mess of the lives of their own moslems and retarded their economic, political and social growth while preparing the ground for the hell of World War I. When comparing Moslem regimes, it's always 'six of one and a half dozen of another.'

50 St. Pancake  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:09:31am

ROFL, E2M
Heh!

A Yurk, properly speaking, is a Turkish-speaking member of the groups which advocates micronukes.

51 Gagdad Bob  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:10:27am

Isn't the problem turkeys ruling Islam? Or is that redundant?

52 St. Pancake  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:11:54am

oh, dear
E2M
I just looked up "yurk" in the Urban Dictionary. I wish I had not done that.

53 pat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:12:09am

#46 simonml
A qick read of #28 Patfromgermany would convince anyone that society should do all it can to contain the barbaric religious customs of Muslims.

54 Carridine  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:12:34am

#49 Cry of Defiance: wasn't it the Ottomans (Uhtman) who took young Vlad from his home in the Transylvanian mountains?

And treated him in such a way as to set a fire burning in him, a fire so fierce that when he organized the defense of Vienna, he IMPALED tens of thousands of Muslims on stakes?

Vlad the Impaler... yes, he was a guest of the Ottoman empire for a few years in his young life...

55 simonml  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:13:08am

#53 Gimme a sec to read it. Thanks

56 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:13:59am
57 St. Pancake  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:13:59am

54 Carridine
They also messed with his brother, if you knwo what I mean.

58 gymnast  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:14:23am

Turkey's recent economic success is a result of interacting with Europe and the West through expanded business and trade. The Arab Islamists would love to drag Turkey down to their level. A level where one is a slave to the mythology of a pedophile and actualization consists of following the South end of a north bound camel and praying five times a day for perfection as an automaton and slave. Mohammad and was one of histories all time greatest scammers and tens of millions have died to prove it.

59 markx  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:14:47am

Thank God, some hope for Turkey.

60 St. Pancake  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:15:12am

Troutster

More good ones, and they all have Ataturk's visage on the signs. Way to go!

61 RedinCAf  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:15:41am

#46 simonml 4/29/2007 9:05:11 am PDT

I hate to be a downer, but banning Muslim dress is a little extreme. Freedom of religion is important for the success of any secular government. It might have been important for Ataturk to ban it 90 years ago, but I think it is harmful now.

Yes, I know the hijab and niqab are mysognistic, but you should be free to believe whatever you want, no matter how asinine it may be.

While I agree in one's right to one's beliefs, it is also the right of the people in a democracy to reject, as their spokesperson (the First Lady in a democracy does have a ceremonial role in government), someone who wears symbols of a system of beliefs that they reject.

62 Amos (Zionist Minion)  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:16:05am

Democracy must be kept alive in Turkey.

Trouble with muslim regimes, democracy is the first thing to go - even if they say "republic, republic, republic" until they're blue in the face.

Reminds me of Deutsche Demokratische Republik, which was neither a democracy nor a republic.

63 pat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:16:31am

#49 cry of defiance and not of fear
I think youf orgot to mention that Christian males were castrated, whether they agreed to convert to Islam or not. All Janissaries were castrated. This practice continues today in gang attacks on Westerners by the 'youths' of Europe.

64 6patrick6  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:17:16am

Yurk - That word (not in the Urban Dictionary sense) somehow conjures up the character "the Swedish Chef" of the Muppets. Not sure how it did, but it did.

65 KathyP  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:17:40am

Hang tough there, Turks. Don't let these Islamic bastards grind you down. No sharia. Ever.

66 cry of defiance and not of fear  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:18:21am

#46 simonml: No, you're not a 'downer' --- you're just not fully informed:

"The veil is just the tip of the iceberg. Behind the veil, there is the regressive interpretation of the sharia (Koranic law). There are the three essential inequalities which define this interpretation: inequality between man and woman, between Muslim and non-Muslim, between free man and slave."

www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.a sp?idArticle=12999&R=EF18

"The Veil Controversy, Islamism and liberalism face off"
by Olivier Guitta
12 April, 2006

67 Carridine  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:20:59am

#57 St P: anal impalement is gruesome, but it CERTAINLY helped demoralize the attacking Muslims who had to attack THROUGH acres of dead, impaled co-religionists to even GET TO the Gates of Vienna!

Vlad knew his stuff...

And in a related story, the Americans in Korea during and after the 'Korean Police Action', kept losing arms, food, SUPPLIES by the ton, even with MPs and armed guards, and barbed wire.

The Turks, though they had no armed guards and no barbed wire, also had NO SLICKY BOYS stealing from their compounds... because the hungry Koreans could see the severed heads of the PREVIOUS guys who got caught, on poles near the gate to the compound...

68 kulthur  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:21:37am

This is excellent news. Regarding the comment above with respect to the secular-supporting army in Iraq - that's precisely why we disbanded the Ba'athist army, duh: how can you have the fascist army legitimately and credibly and reliably upholding a new representative democracy? (Cf. contemporary Russia) And that is precisely what we are trying to do now: build an Ataturk army in Iraq. Unfortunately, we have no Ataturk (who by the way killed many, many people and imposed sudden, sweeping, total changes, including obliterating the Caliphate). The real problem in Iraq is not putting a bullet through Sadr's skull, then and now, and related problems. Clearly the State Department is inferior to the task, and merely a parasite on American hard power. Richard Holbrooke, for exaample, should be flipping my Whoppers, not flitting around the Eurasian landmass declaring defeat and encouraging the Cave-Dwelling Machinegun Crew for Sex Slavery.

But since that recent announcement that Turkey's army was considering rolling into Iraqi Kurdistan, I've been a little nervous. This is excellent news at least in the political/cultural realm, and I'll take it.

69 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:21:44am

The desire to Live Free knows no borders, for it is Human Nature.

70 6patrick6  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:21:55am

#28 patfromGermany - Great name, BTW! I'd read that a while back. That scares the crap out of me, personally, because there are enough people out there to buy the crap the "peaceful" Islamics are shovelling, they will be like the lobster in the pot of cold water brought to a boil - they'll never know the moment the end has come for them!

71 LC LaWedgie  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:22:05am

Link at the top of the Digg page:

How to Convert to Islam

How to convert and become a Muslim with Live Help by chat

“Whoever testifies that there in none worthy of being worshipped but God, Who has no partner, and that Muhammad is His slave and Prophet, and that Jesus is the Slave of God, His Prophet, and His word which He bestowed in Mary and a spirit created from Him; and that Paradise (Heaven) is true, and that the Hellfire is true, God will eventually admit him into Paradise, according to his deeds.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

/Meet me at [Link: www.virginwatch.com...] for your virgin voucher

72 St. Pancake  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:23:08am

67 Carridine
Oh, dear. Sure fire way to keep law and order.

73 trailortrash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:24:15am

good going turkey :thumbsup:

74 BigZ  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:25:18am

I've never understood muslims demands for "religious tolerance" when the only thing their entire religion preaches is intolerance.

They come here and make demands that we captitulate to their 'religion';
yet refuse to reciprocate.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with banning muslim dress.

Until they accept OUR PRINCIPLES of religious freedom, I think THEIR RELIGION OF INTOLERANCE OUGHT TO BE BANNED.

75 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:28:15am

#68 kulthur
I'm aware that the Baathist army had to be disbanded but we failed to include secularist safeguards in the new Iraqi constitution. I think that's a serious oversight.It would not have been popular but I think it's to only way a Muslim democracy can sustain itself.

76 gymnast  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:28:29am

#46, simonml. You are too smart to be so uninformed. Research the subject and you will more fully inform yourself on the topic of political Islamism and an unwillingness to take advantage of the religious freedoms of the west and opportunities to assimilate into the culture.Check out the website referred to by PatfromGermany in post# 28.

77 lawhawk  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:28:42am

While the freedom of speech is embraced in Turkey - at least to a degree seldom seen elsewhere in the Muslim world, the Egyptians are facing a crackdown (yet again) and the situation isn't going to get any better despite billions in US foreign aid to Egypt.

The media now dutifully reports that reconstruction projects that were completed in Iraq are not working out. Kind of like all the other government projects that haven't exactly worked out as planned - public housing projects that became little more than crack dens and gang incubators, wars on drugs and poverty that haven't reduced either despite billions spent, billions spent on flood control throughout the country that failed spectacularly in NOLA, and yet the media thinks that the government projects that fail are singular to Bush or this war?

78 christheprofessor  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:29:45am
79 Render  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:30:41am

Wanna bet our Turkish "friend" Fuzuli was not in attendence?

And...

We will not see that kind, or size of demonstration from Pakistan.

ANOTHER
PERFECT
DAY,
R

80 Carridine  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:30:44am

#72 St Pankacci: there were still people who KNEW those Turks, in Korea when I served.

They were no BS, straight shooters, allies of America, enemies of ChiCom and KorCom, and valiant, tough fighters!

NOT to be stolen from! :)

81 Amos (Zionist Minion)  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:31:18am

#74 BigZ,

nice one.

Whenever muslim ask for extra concessions, they should be asked to tolerate the same for every religion on the planet.

No "muslim only" segragetion zones, thank you very much.

82 simonml  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:31:39am

#53 Pat

I didn't have a chance to read the whole thing. Just skimmed most of it.

I'm blown away by the indoctrination of the youngest children in the story. All I ever remember from religious education as a kid was learning about kindness and loving and positive things. Not about hate and killing.

I'd still like to believe that these are just radicals who have hijacked their religion for whatever reason, but more and more it seems like the vast majority of Muslims are radical.

At what point did this religion revert to the 7th century? (because I would like to believe that at some point it left that barbarism behind)

...maybe it never did.


Still, you should be free to practice your religion however you want, but I should qualify this statement. Only so long as that religion doesn't impinge on the rights of other people. It would appear that many Muslims would not fulfill this requirement.

So sad for a religion that tauts itself as the final revision to Judeo-Christian religions.

83 Dragon Drop  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:32:34am

Good news, but I still don't want them in the EU. Or the EU at all.

84 Atman  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:33:14am

This is good news for Turkey...this is not so good news for us.
And why it is important to have this site to continue the fight for the minds of the weak willed...
/steps off of soapbox

85 abolitionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:36:02am

#46 simonml

I hate to be a downer, but banning Muslim dress is a little extreme. Freedom of religion is important for the success of any secular government.

Policeman: Mrs. Smith, you say you were sitting next to your husband on the park bench when he was stabbed 19 times. Can you describe the assailant?
Mrs. Smith: About 100 pounds, maybe more.
Policeman: Young or old?
Mrs. Smith: I don't know.
Policeman: Dark or light skin?
Mrs. Smith: I don't know.
Policeman: Male or Female?
Mrs. Smith: I don't know.
Policeman: What color hair?
Mrs. Smith: I don't know.
Policeman: Any beard, mustache, scars or other distinguishing features?
Mrs. Smith: I don't know. There was a dark cloth covering from head to foot.
Policeman: Can you think of anything else that might help identify the perp?
Mrs. Smith: Kept saying All Lack Bar, or something. Whatever it was, the tone was hateful, like what those Friday floor-banger people say when chanting Death to America.
Policeman: I'm sorry Mrs. Smith. You've just violated the Religious Tolerance Act. I'll have to take you in. Spread 'em.
Mrs. Smith: But I don't remember hearing about any such law. When did that happen?
Policeman: It was a fatwah.

86 Catttt  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:36:17am

Excellent - my faith in Turkey grows. They protested about a week ago with about half a million - and there was hardly a ripple in the MSM about it. Now a larger protest - kudos to modern Turkey.

There are two Mustafa Kemals. One the flesh-and-blood Mustafa Kemal who now stands before you and who will pass away. the other is you, all of you here who will go to the far corners of our land to spread the ideals which must be defended with your lives if necessary. I stand for the nation's dreams, and my life's work is to make them come true.


Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

87 simonml  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:38:51am

#71 LC LaWedgie

Is it because we digg LGF articles constantly? Is that why we get the religious conversion ads from google?

88 Maximu§  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:41:28am

WooHoo...I finally figuered out this "cookies" thing! After all, Im from the Pong generation and not all that swift with computers.

Thanks for the good news Charles, I can go to the Beach today with a smile.

89 alteredbeat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:42:48am

We need to organize similar protests in the USA.

90 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:43:39am

#67 Carridine

anal impalement is gruesome

And usually fatal. That happens more often that many realize on construction sites where rebar sticks up out of the concrete. If it happens to you, they have to cut the rebar off, and send you to the hospital with the bar in you, and if, by some miracle, it didn't destroy a vital organ, they have to slowly and carefully remove it.

91 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:46:43am

#86 Cattt

Excellent - my faith in Turkey grows.

But they'll never own up to the Armenian genocide.

92 dimestorenovel  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:46:50am

“We don’t want a covered woman in Ataturk’s presidential palace,” said Ayse Bari, a 67-year-old housewife. “We want civilized, modern people there.”

If a 67 year old woman can sensibly wish for a civilized, modern people, uncovered and unencumbered by the literal and figurative cloak demanded by a 7th century cult, then why is it wrong for me to wish the same for North America?

93 Catttt  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 9:50:26am

91 Earth2moonbat

There is that. Of course, Japan has a little problem with their genocide in China and their prison camps in WWII also, and we still buy Toyotas and Sonys.

Turkey is a thorny child that appears to be blossoming into a rose.

94 Sabraguy  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:00:39am

This puts CAIR and the MSM in an embarassing position. The Turkish protest is clearly a massive case of Islamophobia. But it also demonstrates that Islamophobia is an entirely rational attitude, that has nothing to do with racism.

If the Turks are allowed to demonstrate against Islamofascism, why can't we?

95 simonml  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:01:41am

#94

You said it yourself. Its racist unless you're Turkish

96 lubbski  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:05:31am

#29 Patfromgermany

Jihad in a small town...Very intereseting read.

I live in the Atlanta area and drive by these little mosques every once in a while. I have always felt a little guilty assuming that they were probably up to no good in there.

Well so much for the guilt. When you have a Muslim that won't go in these mosques anymore because they are too radical, that pretty much says it all.

Right here in Atlanta...That's just great!

97 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:06:13am

#93 Cattt

You'll be happy to know that according to the Gender Genie, you're female. Not all ladies here get that result.

98 JohnConnor  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:07:30am

More demo photos, but on the other side:

[Link: gaiaseye.buzznet.com...]

The demonstration in London last friday by supporters of Omar Brooks and other arrested extremists. Photos by citizen journalist Gaia.

99 NoSubmission  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:07:50am

This is a very good sign. More power to them.

Hate to bring them up, but KOS is probably denouncing this in some way.

100 NoSubmission  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:10:23am

98 JohnConnor
Thanks for posting these photos!
This is London? Effing Hell!

101 LC LaWedgie  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:13:39am

#87 simonml -
No, more like the royal family of Saud is throwing money to support Digg in the name of the RoP ™.
After all, missionaries are more dangerous than terror organizations.

102 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:18:04am

All in all I have to give this protest into the good news column.The Turks have shown a lot of potential to move forward into an enlightened future.Let's hope they can keep it up.I also was one of those that were frustrated by the Turkish refusal to let our heavy infantry enter Iraq from the north but, having said that ,I doubt that any of our so called European friends would have been any more helpful than the Turks were.

103 Bill Amos  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:18:42am
Has the MSM denounced the demonstration as both "anti-Democratic" & "anti-Islamic"?

In the MSM's warped worldview, Islam = Democracy.

Al Jazeera has already hinted at this being un demcratic. Islamics are upset that when democracy works in their favor they feel it should give them ultimate power.

Its partly true that Islam and democracy are ultimately unable to work together. Islam doesnt repect democracy but will use it to set up its totalitarian state. Nazism and facism are the same way.

Hitler was elected to power. Have to keep that in mind.

Here is the islamics throwing a hissy fit about this on Jazeera.

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

104 Andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:19:45am

If secular rule is what the people want, that's what they should vote for.

However, no matter how big the protests are, if the majority of the population votes for religious party, then that's the will of the majority and this vocal minority will have to deal with it.

105 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:24:43am

Gee Andy,
It really seems like you've staked out your position.
It's nice to have a dream.

106 JohnConnor  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:28:45am

#100 NoSubmission

You're welcome, but the real thanks are due to Gaia for taking the photos.

Funny how the burka babes have to protest in back, separate from the men. (In case they would be driven crazy by the sight of the bobbies' truncheons?)

BTW the demo was right across the street from Edgware Rd tube station - one of the stations hit in the July 7 bombings. That's got to be more than a coincidence.

107 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:34:55am

104 Andalus Hey Man good luck with that caliphate thing.Hope it works out for ya.Umm ,on second thought, you can include me out.I'll keep it simple for you.I.Am.Your.Enemy.Unless, of course ,you decide to participate in civilization like a rational human being.

108 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:38:18am

#104 Andalus

Answer this: Suppose the majority of Americans, who are white, decided to reinstate slavery, and anyone who is black is now a slave. And just for giggles, we'll make all muslims slaves, too.

Majority rules, right?

109 reluctant democrat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:42:56am

A march in Islamabad, a march in Istanbul, all against radical Islam: this is the real "street" that the media and the government should be listening to.

110 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:44:38am

108 Earth2moonbat

That would be unconstitutional. And that document is the main reason I choose to live in America. But if people elsewhere want something else that's their right.

‘A country that makes human rights a significant element of its foreign policy tends toward ineffectual moralizing at best, and unconstrained violence in pursuit of moral aims at worst.’
-Francis Fukuyama

111 Earth2moonbat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:49:37am

#110 andalus

But you just said that it's ok to institute sharia if the majority wants it. Now you say it's not ok to institute majority rule if it violates minority right. Sharia inherently violates minority (kufr) rights.

You can't have that both ways. Either it's ok for a mob to institute slavery in the US, or it's not ok for a mob to institute sharia in Turkey.

112 monsieur mystere  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:50:44am

I want that poster!

113 wanderer  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:53:08am

Having regularly traveled to,studied, and observed both Turkey and the Middle east one fact becomes clear. Turks are a rational people while Arabs seem to readily buy into any fanaticism and wild emotionalism that comes down the road. The Turks were converted to Islam by coercion from the fuedal rulers of the time who had conquered the fanatic Arabs who had invented the idiocy and therein lies a crucial historic difference.

114 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:56:12am

Sheik Andalus,
Dude, Turkey has a constitution too.
Didn't take long to find this in it.

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY

PART ONE

GENERAL PRINCIPLES

I. Form of the State

ARTICLE 1. The Turkish state is a Republic.

II. Characteristics of the Republic

ARTICLE 2 . The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social state governed by the rule of law; bearing in mind the concepts of public peace, national solidarity and justice; respecting human rights; loyal to the nationalism of Atatürk, and based on the fundamental tenets set forth in the Preamble.

Duh!

115 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:59:21am

cite: [Link: www.hri.org...]

116 kepiblanc  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:00:08am

#8 St. Pancake

Whether or not, Turkey is allowed into the EU is really going to depend on this particular issue. Keep abreast of the news, folks.

I' not sure what you mean ? - The EU just warned the Turkish military not to interfere with the elections (in EUrocratese "warn" means a strongly worded letter). I've just been told by a Turkish friend that among the demonstrators many carry anti-EU placards.

So, on one front we have secular Turks, The Turkish Army and democratic, civilized Europeans. On the other side we have the Turkish Government, the majority of Turks, Islam and the EU.
Nice.

117 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:03:01am

111 Earth2moonbat

Your example assumes that because the majority of Americans are white, that they would, en masse, want to reinstate race-based slavery. That wouldn't happen, though I'm sure there are some nutjobs who would like that.

But to entertain it anyway-
IF the majority of Americans voted to amend the consitution to allow slavery, I would protest in the streets, get support on message boards and if all else failed, move to Turkey.


Now, if that happened, what would you suggest?

Would you support an invasion of the U.S. by a coalition of the willing? After, we would then be a repressive state holding WMD.

118 R2D2  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:04:01am

Go Turkey!

Please stay civilized.

119 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:06:39am

PIMF
Last line should read afterALL

120 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:07:13am

So Emir Andalus,
After you move to Turkey which side will you be on ?
The secular constitutional side ?
Or the Islamist Constitutional Abrogation side ?
Why is it OK for them to violate their constitution, but not us ?

121 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:15:54am

120 Jimash

It's OK for us to change our constitution as well. For instance, I would be in favor of a marriage amendment, I am thankful for the 13th 14th and 15th amendments etc.

If I disagreed with an amendment I would voice my opposition and if my side lost I would either deal with it or if it were too much to bear I would leave. Turks have the same option, especially if they gain entry to the EU

122 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:17:31am

BTW, I was being facetious about moving to turkey. I would most likely move to another western country, like canada or somewhere in S. america.

123 Sharku  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:18:45am

Sharia is slavery, nothing more, nothing less. That the Turkish military opposes this is a good thing. The best thing would be to destroy the non government munitions dumps (commonly referred to as mosques)

124 Sharku  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:20:32am

and andalus, please dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

125 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:28:00am

I can see you're really upset about that Slavery thing.
That's just a hoot.
Most of us refer to the 4th or 2nd or 1st amenndment as being defining issues of freedomn for us, and if you claimed to be an American Black person then I could see you enshrining those 13-15 amendments.
It just shows how retrograde your outlook is . "Old Country" must really suck bad.

126 Highrise  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:30:05am

It is FAR from overreacting to ban the veil in a society that wishes to be free. If people are so in love with the garbage bag attire, they need to go to a country that allows that.

I have a right to feel free on my streets. My senses judge who I come across by body language and facial expressions. If that is all covered up, that infringes on MY rights.

Listen to women who are forced to wear it, read the book Infidel and others that introduce you to how the coverings came about and how they play a part in keeping women down. This isn't a freedom of religion expression. This cult has not been *hijacked* if you read the koran. Hang around awhile and you'll see the koran versus in all it's glory of hate and evil. While not everyone who IS a muslim is a suicide bomber, they still worship and read from the koran and it's evil. Too bad we'll never know when someone will act on the call of Allah.

127 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:30:25am

and

I would be in favor of a marriage amendment,

what kind ?
Anti-Gay ?
or
Pro Goat ?

128 Highrise  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:32:11am

It just sickens me how people think it's humble to wear a damn garbage bag. mental.

humble my arse!

129 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:34:45am

125 Jimash

1- I was referring to amednments that changed the constitution after it had been ratified and in force for some time, since that's waht we're talking about in turkey. The bill of rights was there from the begining.

2- My wife is black.

3- My "Old Country" is NY and my ancestors are from Spain.

130 Cat  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:36:29am

One of the "leftist" newspapers in Turkey, called Cumhuriyet (Republic), had an ad campaign a while ago. They had these Arabic looking texts that were actually written in the Latin alphabet, reading "?zinisim adnikraf ninekilhet" - when you read that from right to left, à la Arabic, it reads tehlikenin farkinda misiniz?: Are you aware of the danger? That's where the phrase on that poster comes from. People were pretty divided about the ad campaign, I think, they either loved it or thought it had no basis in reality.

Here's the ad, for those who'd like to see it.

131 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:38:49am

128 Highrise

I agree that face veils have no place in America.

How loose a woman wears her blouse or how long her skirt is or what she wears on hear haed is none of your business.

132 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:39:28am

Andy You should go with the South America immigration plan. I'm pretty sure from conversations that I've had with Canadians in the last couple of years, that they would think your an ass---e ,just like most of us do.

133 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:40:22am

#132 lowcountry

an apposite screen name

134 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:40:27am
2- My wife is black.

You can rest easy then. It is legal to marry a black woman in America.

135 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:42:57am

It is legal to marry a black woman in America.

As it has been in the Muslim world for 1400 years.

136 Highrise  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:44:47am

131 andalus

You pull your usual. I never talked about a blouse or a skirt and challenge you to put up or shut up..point to where. You really need to pull your head out of that arse of yours.

137 PatFromGermany  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:46:07am

@ 6patrick6 and all others who
read "Smalltown U.S.A." from [Link: www.lauramansfield.com...] (Tip from Just a Grunt)

Around the world it's the same. Gloryfying jihad and calling us pigs and apes when they think we don't listen - talking peace when they think we do listen.
SAME thing EVERY-f**-where.

Examples:

•A German TV-Station exposed a radical Imam who said we stink, are worthless and so on...
• A Czech news magazine reported that muslims are building a parallel society
...you guys know all this and anyone here could go on about this for days, so I'll spare you.

What keeps the MSM from shouting out loud and our politicians from deporting the religious nazis?

Answer (IMHO): PC

(This is where PC came from, and I'm a little ashamed to tell you.. well you guessed it ;-) I think someone at lgf posted it, anyway another eye opener on how fascist ideology is keeping us from seeing the truth)

(Fortunately the internet with all it's lgf's is slowly but steadily stemming against the tide of PC)

I have come to the conviction that before we can truly engage in the battle against Islam - that is really a battle for our freedom - we must destroy PC.
Look at what PC does! We have a different point of view from the moon/diggbats? --> We must be fascist.
Hence, the annihilation of PC should be operative paramount.

I rest my case ;-)

138 Highrise  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:49:53am

andulus,

You did the same crap in this other thread and you high tailed it out of there...You'd think you'd learn some lessons if you have read here awhile. I am beginning to suspect you are a previous poster that was perhaps banned.

139 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:51:44am

136 Highrise

What did you mean by "garbage bag attire" and
"My senses judge who I come across by body language and facial expressions. If that is all covered up" ?

140 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:55:41am

Dear Andy Please,please, teach this unlettered infidel more about the tolerance and idealism of the caliphate... Legal to marry a black woman for 1400 yrs...How do I convert?

141 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:58:26am

Ok 1400 years of progressive interracial marriage. Most impressive.
And they abolished SLAVERY when ?

142 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:58:43am

137 PatFromGermany

Thing is, all this parallel society and evil secret hate of us and secret rituals is the stuff your countrymen said about Jews.

Yes I know, Jews didn't fly planes into buildings. But neither did my sweet old mother-in-law.

What keeps the MSM from shouting out loud and our politicians from deporting the religious nazis?


It's because they know how ugly people get when you demonize an entire group of people, be they a religion or an ethnicity.
We can't and won't have a repeat of 1930's Germany here in the U.S.

143 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 11:58:53am

New member--8-year resident of Turkey. I have to tell you, don't take this too seriously. Turkey is a lost cause. It's just a matter of how much longer people like these demonstrators can hold out.

144 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:03:08pm

141 Jimash

Raced-based slavery was abolished from the begining.
The Ottoman's were the last Islamic state and they abolished slave trade as follows:

1847: slave trade banned in Persian Gulf
1857: African slave trade banned
1864: Traffic in Georgian and Circassian child slaves restricted
1867: Programme introduced to help slaves from Russia get their freedom
1887-1880: Conventions against the slave trade signed with Britain
1890: Brussels Act against slave trade signed

145 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:03:31pm

#143mikeinistanbul welcome aboard.

146 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:06:17pm

Thanks, lowcountry. I can't tell you how long I've waited for registration to open. I'm in Istanbul right now, listening to an Orioles game on the internet. I can tell you horror stories about how different Turkey is from the country I moved to in 1995 and fell in love with. But this is my last year, I think.

147 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:06:40pm

Andy...I think you left out when the saudis banned slavery.

148 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:07:19pm
Thing is, all this parallel society and evil secret hate of us and secret rituals is the stuff your countrymen said about Jews.

Stop hiding behind the Jews. It's like not comparable at all.


We can't and won't have a repeat of 1930's Germany here in the U.S.

No we won't. We will stop the ISlamists before they can institute their evil plan.

149 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:08:04pm

146 Mike ,,Where are you from originally?

150 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:08:37pm

Saudi Arabia is NOT an islamic state. They are a monarchy that uses religion to maintain control and power.

151 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:10:07pm

148 Jimash

It's like not comparable at all.


Yeah it is.

152 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:11:13pm

Andalus

Raced-based slavery was abolished from the begining.

BULLSHIT .
It's still ON !
[Link: islam-watch.org...]

Most of the Gulf countries did away withh slavery in the 1950-60's and you know it.
Still goin' on in Africa tho'

153 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:11:30pm

150 Andy Bullshit. Saudi Arabia is The islamic state .

154 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:13:30pm

Originally from South Carolina, but an Orioles fan from way back: Mark Belanger went to high school with my mother. I don't want to preach, but all this talk about Islamic slavery can only come from someone not on the ground. I teach at a religious university here, and a couple weeks ago one of my grad students attempted suicide because she was called into an upper-level administrator's office. In the office was another grad student, with a dozen roses in his hand. They told her that they were getting married, and even told her the date. And all this was done with the full consent of her family--the full consent of everyone, it seemed, except for the young woman herself. This is not uncommon. The suicide rate for women in Turkey is well above the world average. So maybe the Ottoman Empire abolished slavery--but I would think that the line between what happened to my grad student and slavery is a thin one indeed.

155 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:13:49pm

152 Jimash That's twice that your keyboard has beaten me to the punch.

156 Cry of defiance and not of fear  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:15:00pm

#144 andalus: Taqiyya Alert?

The Koran mandates for slavery, and Muhammad owned, hired, sold, rented and traded numerous slaves and the Koran specifically makes it lawful in two instances: for prisoners of war and for the sexual propagation of slaves.

Present-day slavery: Sudan, Darfur, Pakistan, Dubai, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia and, I imagine, under any Ottoman carpet one cared to peer.

157 R2D2  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:15:31pm

#143 mikeinistanbul

Welcome!

Andalus

I'm sure LGF has plenty of debaters much stronger than me, but I just couldn't help myself.
Your demagogy skills are amazing. So you mean putting women in jail, or stoning them to death for violation of dress code (just one example from the top of my head)isn't kind of slavery?
Also why did you avoid that little part where establishing of Sharia law in Turkey is against constitution?

158 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:16:28pm

Spent some time in Saudi as well. If you think slavery isn't alive and well in Saudi, then you are dreaming. The place is crawling with Filipina women who are brought in as maids or au pair, and who never see the light of day again. There really is no teacher like experience.

159 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:16:54pm

Caliph Andalus,
Speaking as a 10th grade dropout, you are going to have to get the facts straight if you are going to attempt to debate here.
Cites help. I look my shit up .
Saudi is an ISlamic state, The Islamic State and they are "the custodians of Islam".
[Link: www.cia.gov...]

Read up.

160 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:18:01pm

154 Mike in istanbul Small world indeed . I'm sitting right in the middle of South Carolina. I still remember the last time four twenty game winners played on the same team. Wasn't it Mcnally, Dobson, Quellar,and Palmer of the Orioles.

161 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:19:23pm

That's right, 1970, and three of them did it again the next year. I grew up in Moncks Corner. Do you know it?

162 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:19:27pm

157 R2D2

-No, enforcing the law, even if unconscionable, is not slavery.

-I did address the constitutional issue, in fact i went back and forth with jimash and others about it until they changed the subject to slavery, which in fact has nothing to do with this thread.

163 PatFromGermany  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:20:03pm

@ andalus

yep. you are right. we don't even want to think this through. What are the consequences really if Islam cannot be reformed but only be contained or destroyed?

*sigh* The horror. Unthinkable, fathomless moral depths.

The retardedly funny thing is, that muslims know that. In Getmany they publicly state things like: "You Germans are weak because of 'the thing with the jews'" (While at the same time - of course - denying the holocaust). Muslims sneer at our morality - since according to them we really don't have any.

Unfortunately I think that Western Civilisation will be put before the choice to eradicate or be eradicated (again)in due time.
But I don't really care that much, because having lived in a free country all my live I know that a live without freedom I couldn't bear anyway.

164 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:22:52pm

I'll have to remember this next time I debate someone about reparations: "Sorry, bud. Enforcing the law, no matter how unconscionable, is not slavery, and unfortunately for your ancestors, they were never slaves. Just victims of an unconscionable law."

165 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:23:12pm

161 Mike ...Monks corner .I know it fairly well. Have friends in my hunt club that live there. I'm in Orangeburg county.

166 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:23:29pm

So to reign things back in.

Turkey: Right to self-determination.

Turkish secularists: Right to emigrate.

The rest of the world: Right to mind our own business.

Any questions?

167 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:25:10pm

164 mikeinistanbul

Yeah that's what i meant.

168 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:29:24pm

Of course it's what you meant, Andalus. You just didn't think through the ramifications of what you were saying. Slavery as an institution is set by law, as are the practices of abolishing it. And when someone brings up real world events that, by any rational definition, are slavery, you fall back with your excuse that people are just following the law, however unconscionabe, as if slavery were something that can only exist outside the law. The fact is that the laws being described to you--shar'ia--are by definition slavery.

169 R2D2  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:32:35pm

162 andalus

-No, enforcing the law, even if unconscionable, is not slavery.

This is laughable. Following your logic slavery NEVER EVER EXISTED. Because every slaver in history was just enforcing the law.

170 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:33:01pm

168 mikeinistanbul

ok

171 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:33:08pm

166 Andy... Nope no questions for you. I do wish you would exercise your right to emigrate as soon as possible.Preferably to Afghanistan. I'm sure your brothers in the taliban would benefit from your erudition.Hell take the wife and kiddies too. They'll probably thank you for it someday.

172 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:33:13pm

Wow, you are really just cheering on the afghanistanization of Turkey.
How enlightening.

Now that we have tootally dispensed with your bullshit about slavery in moslem lands ( still very popular)
I would love to hear how a Monarchy is different from a CAliphate ?

173 Pamela  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:38:19pm

#43 Killgore Trout


You should see my Turkish sister. she is absolutely beautiful (guzel).


I would love a T shirt with that picture of the chador and the darkening light bulb, and a coffee mug and a few bumper stickers and window decals.

174 R2D2  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:39:25pm

166 andalus

Any questions?

Yes.

What are you doing in the United States of America? Why are you like some kind of lich exploiting freedom other people were dying for? Why don't you mind your own business in, say, Republic of North Korea?

175 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:42:43pm

Pamela,

I would love to see your Turkish sister. The grace and beauty of Turkish women is what has kept me in this country for so long.

176 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:42:52pm
how a Monarchy is different from a CAliphate ?

The caliphate is a theocratic oligarchy-
The law is derived from religious sources as opposed to a monarch who can make law at his pleasure.

Also the caliph doesn't hold absolute power, he has to consult a shura or coucil who are also in charge of electing the caliph.

177 andalus  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:45:18pm
What are you doing in the United States of America?

Because America is the best place in the world to live.
But that doesn't mean I think our system should ro even can be duplicated elsewhere. And whether or not it can is those peoples decision, not ours.

178 grumpy old codger  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:47:30pm

I'm glad to see that someone in the moslem world is resistant to the imposition of sharia.

However, "Timeo Danos et donas ferentes."

Not only is Mein Kampf still a best seller, but recent movies from Turkey leave a lot to be desired. And remember, when it was time to move 4th ID to Iraq, Turkey said no.

There's no love lost between the Turks and the Arabs and other moslem people in the former Ottoman empire. But I'm still wary, despite this and the relationship with Israel. Who knows, maybe the four legged squealer was finally sprouted wings?

179 lowcountry  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:49:49pm

Well folks I've had about as much fun with our resident sheik as I can stand .I think I'll have a drink.Even though my christian neighbors would dissaprove , I know they won't kill me for it.Unlike some religions that come to mind.

180 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:51:07pm

rticle 7:

The regime derives its power from the Holy Qur'an and the Prophet's Sunnah which rule over this and all other State Laws.

Article 8:

The system of government in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is established on the foundation of justice, "Shoura" and equality in compliance with the Islamic Shari'ah (the revealed law of Islam).
[Link: saudinf.com...]

[Link: saudinf.com...]

[Link: saudinf.com...]

Again the facts fail you. Who told you these lies about Saudi ?

181 mikeinistanbul  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:53:43pm

See you, lowcountry. It's nearly 11:00 here, and I have some work to do. And thanks, Charles, for opening up the registration. I'm honored to be here.

182 R2D2  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:55:09pm

177 andalus

Because America is the best place in the world to live.
But that doesn't mean I think our system should ro even can be duplicated elsewhere. And whether or not it can is those peoples decision, not ours.

I know, I know. But you see, US was made a great place to live with all it's freedoms through much struggle and by hands of brave people who denied this shitty attitude of "minding their own business", you know. So now brave people in Turky are trying to make their country a better place. We here on LGF are expressing our support hoping that after, say, 50 years, some andalus from Turkey will post here "Turkey is great country". What's the problem, andalus?

183 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 12:59:17pm

It may not be our decision what goes on in Turkey.
But your position that the US constitution should be respected and the Turkish constitution abrogated and discarded if that is what the mob wants, is inconsistent.

184 Jimash  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 1:00:52pm

Bye Lowcountry.
Thanks for the backup ;->

185 Pamela  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 1:12:51pm

#175 mikeinistanbul

I lived in Turkey for awhile in 2001, Istanbul(Ortakoy) and Samsun.

The women are wonderful, the men kind of boring.


do me a favor go out to eat, order Coban Salatas, iskender kebab, and for dessert, kunefe(I learned to make this).

I knew the former manager of Cafe Perpa


I miss it sooo much. there is a store in NYC that will ship lahmucan to you.

tulumba.com

I don't like raki at all.

I loved Bodrum, party city. But nothing matches the magic of Istanbul sitting in an outdoor cafe at night drinking cay, with a full moon, stars and the moonlihgt dancing off the Bosphorus.

186 USASupport  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 1:25:20pm

Why can't the ME see Turkey's rejection of this crap and follow suit?

187 Salem  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 1:51:11pm

Um, Turkish secularism isn't a new development, you know. That's one of the reasons I've stated that Islam will never rise up and sweep the globe. Secularists don't shout as loud as the muslims because they are more or less like us. The inevitable spread of democracy empowers them, so there's not so much to sound off about. In muslim countries where there is no real secular population, there are rival factions of muslims that help to keep one another from becoming too prominant. Which means they are ultimately doomed to adopt democracy in order to stem the bloodshed. We are not creating more terrorists over there, we are killing them off. Unfortunately, we are being so gentle about it that it's taking an intolerably long time. Regrettable, but probably neccesary until the popular tide has turned in our favor. Which shoukld be starting to happen right now.

188 Pamela  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:03:07pm

#166 USASupport

The arab world hates Turkey, because of it's secularism and because of Ataturk.

Every single home I went into in Turkey had a framed pic of Ataturk in the kitchen, and or in the salon(Living room).

Ataturk basically banish Arab script and adopted latin lettering:


Kemal's reforms
Kemal's most lasting legacy was the campaign of secularization, modernization and purification which he imposed on a sometimes reluctant Turkish nation. The Caliphate (the position of nominal head of the Islamic faith, held by the Ottoman Sultans), was abolished in March 1924. The title of Pasha was abolished, so Kemal Pasha became once again simple Mustafa Kemal. The theological schools madrassas were closed, the Sharia law of Islam was replaced by a law code based on that of Switzerland. The Italian Penal Code and the German Commerce Code were also adopted.

The emancipation of women was encouraged by Mustafa Kemal's marriage in 1923 to a Western-educated woman, Latife Hanim (they were divorced in 1925), and was set in motion by a number of laws. In December 1934, women were given the vote for parliamentary members and were made eligible to hold parliamentary seats.

In a typically idiosyncratic gesture, Kemal regarded the fez (the Ottoman hat) as a symbol of feudalism and banned it. He wore a European-style suit and hat, and insisted that all Turks do likewise. The veil for women was banned and women were encouraged to wear western dress and enter the work force. In 1928 the government decreed that the Arabic script be replaced by a modified Latin alphabet, which was easier to learn and teach and made publishing much easier. All citizens from six to 40 years of age were made to attend school and learn the new alphabet. The Turkish language was "purified" by the removal of many Arabic and Persian words and their replacement by new Turkish ones.

Visual representation of human forms was banned during Ottoman times following the Islamic faith. Kemal opened new schools to teach art to boys and girls. Atatürk also lifted the Islamic ban on alcohol: he had a great appreciation for the national liquor, raki, and consumed vast quantities of it. In 1934 he required all Turks to adopt western style surnames. He was given the name Kemal Atatürk by the parliament, meaning "father of Turks."


Biography of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

189 Salem  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:05:15pm
#8 St. Pancake 4/29/2007 8:32:52 am PDT

Great picture, Troutster!

Whether or not, Turkey is allowed into the EU is really going to depend on this particular issue. Keep abreast of the news, folks.


You would think so, wouldn't you? But for the time, it's the other way around. The EU is supporting the Islamist leadership of Turkey.

190 Pamela  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:11:08pm

#189 Salem


You would think so, wouldn't you? But for the time, it's the other way around. The EU is supporting the Islamist leadership of Turkey.


I just shake my head in bewilderment at that all the time.

191 Salem  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:15:48pm
#13 Abu Bin Squid 4/29/2007 8:38:09 am PDT

Why is the winged-pig still in the hanger?


Because it shouldn't be surprising at all. It's just that no one has been publicizing the fact that Turkey is a secularist country. When an Islamist president was elected, that was news. Though the Turks are apparently hurt that they aren't looked upon as "good" muslims, they don't appear to be so hurt as to let Islam govern in any pervasive way. Sharia law? Fugedaboudit!

It's not all good news. Most turkish secularists and muslims are united in their hostility toward the Kurds, who we like to think of as the good muslims of Iraq, but who Turkey sees as a scourge ethnicity that threatens Turkish unity and sovereignity, because the Kurds presumably want to carve some of "Kurdistan" out of Turkey.

192 Pamela  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:30:15pm

Salem, yep and the Armenian issue hurts the Turks image.


I don't know if you read Michael Toten? He once wrote about his account of the stark differences crossing into Kurdish Iraq from the Turk border. Let me try to find the link for you.

Back To Iraq Part one of five

193 Pamela  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:32:49pm

sorry it is Michael J. Totten, my bad typing.


Middle East Journal

194 dimestorenovel  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:39:28pm

#177 andalus

If America is the best place to live, why did you say that you would move to Canada or South America. As a Canadian, btw, I can tell you, we don't need or want you.

195 Aylios  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:52:09pm
OT: Wow what an eye opener 0o

User Just a Grunt directed my view to this testimony.

Actually this is quite amazing since since this describes muslims in a nutshell.

smalltown U.S.A.
MUST read

sorry for any redundancy or off-topicishness ;-), I didn't mean to bother


It's only off-topic for the post, not for the site and you're right, this sure is an eye-opener. Not in the sense that it's any surprise (it isn't) but in the sense that it illustrates the islamist tactics in the west so clearly.

This should be published in the MSM, but of course it won't be.

A must-read!

196 Aylios  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:54:05pm

sorry, the link didnt come out. Here it is again. Sorry for the double-redundancy, but this really is good:
[Link: www.lauramansfield.com...]

197 Aylios  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 2:59:01pm
#108 Earth2moonbat 4/29/2007 10:38:18 am PDT

#104 Andalus

Answer this: Suppose the majority of Americans, who are white, decided to reinstate slavery, and anyone who is black is now a slave. And just for giggles, we'll make all muslims slaves, too.

Majority rules, right?


Erh ... earth2, could we like drop that first part and just keep the second one?

That would strike me as democratic enough to please Andalus. Just vote to enslave muslims, or perhaps extradite them all to Iran. If one day we can get a majority vote on that then Andalus would agree to it, right Andalus?

198 Aylios  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 3:01:49pm
#190 Pamela 4/29/2007 2:11:08 pm PDT

#189 Salem


You would think so, wouldn't you? But for the time, it's the other way around. The EU is supporting the Islamist leadership of Turkey.


I just shake my head in bewilderment at that all the time.


I live in Europe (France!) and I can tell you that, sadly there is nothing bewildering about that whatsoever.

199 BingoBunny  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 3:10:24pm

Awesome that the free people of East Europe support freedom more then the lazy fat socialist slobs in Western Europe.. and now the Left of Turkey get sha'ri law.. more then the Left of France do.. freedom isn't free, you have to fight to keep it.

/and europe has depended on USA to save them way too long.. set a timetable to get our troops out of Western Europe.

200 Aylios  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 3:30:41pm
#199 BingoBunny 4/29/2007 3:10:24 pm PDT

Awesome that the free people of East Europe support freedom more then the lazy fat socialist slobs in Western Europe.. and now the Left of Turkey get sha'ri law.. more then the Left of France do.. freedom isn't free, you have to fight to keep it.

/and europe has depended on USA to save them way too long.. set a timetable to get our troops out of Western Europe.


It's not so much the people here that don't get it. The french people actually hate the muslims with a vengeance and no-one here would dream of accepting sha'ria law. Don't forget that France was the country that outlawed wearing headscarves in school (a la Ataturk). Sure, France is at times an embarassing place to be, but public sentiment against the islamic parasites is very strong and if they keep pushing their violent agenda here, then the sh*t will eventually hit the fan.

201 grumpy old codger  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 4:52:45pm

The big diffenrence andalus doesn't seem to recognize is that if today we voted that the sea was, in fact, made of lemonade, that would be OK. If twenty years from now, we realized that we were mistaken and voted to rescind our belief that the sea was made of lemonade. That would be OK also. It would, if nothing else, show us to be idiots, but idiots capable of change.
For andalus, once that vote was taken, the first time, that would be the end of it. Regardless of what we might discover in the future, the fact that we had given the OK to sharia could not be disallowed. Once we bought in, we could never get out.

Imagine if prohibition were still on the books! Islam is a totalitarian, theocratic nightmare posing as a religion.

202 hiker  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 5:33:04pm

Turkey is the most un-islamic "moslem" nation. Ataturk did wonders for Turkey as far as bringing it into the 20th century (unfortunately, he also had the blood of a million Armenians on his hands). He insisted that if Turkey were to survive the collapse of the Ottomans, and eventually develop, it had to throw off its islamic influence and modernize.

There are many Turks whose approach to islam is, well...tepid, especially among those in the military.

Istanbul is fairly westernized, at least on the "European" side: Istanbul is actually divided between the "European" side, or that part west of the Bosporus, and the "Asian" side, or that part east of the Bosporus. The Western side is rather secular, whereas the Asian side is more fundamental. At least that's the way it was in the early 1970s when I spent some time there.

This will be very interesting.

203 Logic  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 5:44:12pm
"The quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail to the ruin of all.

Yet hope remains..." - Galadriel

This is very encouraging indeed. The women and children of islam are its hope for the future. Let us continue to hope and to pray for them - and influence them positively in every way possible.

204 deacon  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 6:00:15pm

I can't wait to hear from my brother-in-law about this. He lives in Istanbul. The bad news is, the EU has already told Turkey that the military there threatens democracy, and they will not let them in the EU if the military takes over again. Nice to know the EU is supporting the right side NOT.

OT: California Interchange Collapses After Tanker Fire

This kindof shoots holes in the theory of plane fuel not being able to bring down a building.

205 Salem  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 6:24:32pm
This kindof shoots holes in the theory of plane fuel not being able to bring down a building.

Yeah, one time in Houston a fuel truck ignited in a crash in an underpass (or maybe it was a tunnel), and melted a hole through to the road above. Take it from Frankenstein's Monster: FIRE BAD!

206 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 6:39:43pm

#162 andalus

-No, enforcing the law, even if unconscionable, is not slavery.

That ranks right up there as the most asinine statement I've ever read.

Seems there was a small skirmish in the US in the first years of the 1860's. Something about states' rights and slavery.

207 deacon  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 7:28:33pm

@ andalus, I would suggest you read up on the holocost. Everything that Germany did was legal. They passed the laws to deny Jews basic human rights, property, to marry whom they wished etc. But hey, if the majority wants it, who are we to say different. And when the majority decides to murder that minority, that is their business, right?

I do not know if you have been to Turkey, but my wife is from there, her brother and some relatives still live there and it is not that good of a place if you are in a minority. Even if their are laws. But hey, are you a minority here in America? Maybe we should pass some laws to deny you rights, and to take your stuff. Do you have anything nice? I could always use some nice stuff.

208 6patrick6  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 8:23:51pm

Raki = yuk! Nothing like licorice-flavored liquer! Or the Greek equivalent - ouzo! Can't get within a mile of the stuff!

209 Bob in Breckenridge  Sun, Apr 29, 2007 10:23:21pm

re: #19 shug I am waiting for these types of protests in London, England,...Paris, France ...and Dearborn, Michigan.

/waiting
//still waiting
///growing old waiting


It's like when I sold cars, if someone called and said they'd be in later today to buy, under our breath we'd say "Ask for Mr. Blue, 'cause I'll be holding my breath until you get here"

210 Tommy Peters  Mon, Apr 30, 2007 2:09:57am

When the Kemalists were taking over, a prominent Islamist commented 'We underestimated the brute in the infidel' If I were an Islamist in Turkey, I would take heed. If anything is scarier than a raging Islamist is a pissed off infidel.

211 cosmo  Mon, Apr 30, 2007 6:28:05am

I never thought secularism could taste so good. I'm just surprised some idiot stone-ager didn't run through the crowd with a sword or something.

Let the new winds blow.

212 sonwat  Mon, Apr 30, 2007 9:29:47am

good and quite depressing article by Mark Steyn
[Link: www.steynonline.com...]
In any case great for the those turks not for turkey

quote about this topic

"But among all the lamentations only Michel Gurfinkiel’s recent analysis in Commentary got to the underlying reality: Since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there have been two Turkeys: the Turks of Rumelia, or European Turkey, and the Turks of Anatolia, or Asia Minor. Kemal Ataturk was from Rumelia and so were most of his supporters, and they imposed the modern Turkish Republic on a somewhat relunctant Anatolia, where Ataturk’s distinction between the state and Islam was never accepted. In its 80-year history, the population has increased from 14 million in 1923 to 70 million today, but the vast bulk of that population growth has come from Anatolia, whose population has migrated from the rural hinterland to overwhelm the once solidly Kemalist cities. Ataturk’s modern secular Turkey has simply been outbred by fiercely Islamic Turkey. That’s a lesson in demography from an all-Muslim sample: no pasty white blokes were involved. So the fact that Muslim fertility is declining in Tunisia is no consolation: all that will do, as in Turkey, is remove moderate Muslims from the equation too early in the game"

213 LoneSome Journey  Mon, Apr 30, 2007 9:31:34am
ISTANBUL, Turkey - At least 300,000 Turks waving the red national flag flooded central Istanbul on Sunday to demand the resignation of the government, saying the Islamic roots of Turkey’s leaders threatened to destroy the country’s modern foundations.

How soon before the saudis begin spending millions of dollars to keep the shift toward the barbaric muslim agenda moving?


This entry has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

log in
Name:
Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? My Account Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► LGF Hits

► Slideshows

► Resources

► Never Forget

► Statistics

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

► News/Opinion

  • Loading...

More Partners

Compare Electricity Prices in your area. Texas Electricity is deregulated; you have the right to choose Texas Electric Rates from among many Texas Electric Companies.

The terrible infant speaks.

Follow Lizardoid on Twitter

 Frank says:

Why doncha come on over to the house and I'll show 'em to ya? -- Senate hearing on pornography in music, when Sen. Paula Hawkins from Florida said ... "I'd like to see what kind of toys your children play with."