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Well, the left is the home of all the great scientists and stuff, like, you know, all the rational thinkers and the really educated people. Not like the bumpkins on the far right nut fringe. So I bet they'll come up with really really good explanations for this, and I will take them at their word because they are way smarter than me. Plus I'm a Christian which makes me even dumber.
We had one of these back in March down here in Florida. So this would mark the third time fire melted steel in the history of man. (Please disregard all the activity this past century in the Pittsburg area)
The March 28 tanker explosion that destroyed parts of Interstate 375 created a complex Reconstruction job. The accident, whick killed driver Ronald Kennedy, was a three-level catastrophe. Here is a look at the repairs to the road, which is expected to reopen on May 1.
The accident
1 The tanker, carrying 12,000 gallons of diesel fuel, hit the right retaining wall at the apex of the incline where the interstate curves toward downtown. The truck rolled, slammed into the left wall and exploded.
2 Blazing fuel spilled down Interstate 375 and poured through gaps, incinerating a tire storage area and 24 pieces of city equipment parked below. The equipment was valued at $ 700,000.
3 The burning fuel found drains and flowed into stormwater sewers, causing explosions that blew off manhole covers, injuring one police officer.
Just as a sidenote, I recall after Northridge in 1994, a section of the 101 or I-10 (not sure, maybe even 405) down in LA was knocked out, and initial reports said it would take a couple of years to fix.
Some guy got the job done in two or three months and under cost.
Can't recall his name, but the powers that be better still have his number.
Let's face it: When you put aside the traffic disruption, injuries to the driver, and monetary damages to various parties... This event was pretty freakin' awesome!
Like everyone who saw the fireball blossoming on Interstate 375 on March 28, Pepe Garcia was momentarily stunned. "God, I hope nobody got hurt," he thought. But because Garcia is the state Department of Transportation's bridge engineer, he then had to get to work repairing the damaged highway, as quickly as possible. On Saturday, 24 days after the deadly tanker collision, I-375 reopened. Here's what it took.
2 lanes of highway closed
550 cubic yards of concrete
89.75 feet of span repaired
90,000 pounds of steel rebar
8,100 man hours ... workers labored 24 hours a day, seven days a week
$2.5 cost of repairs in millions, but tally is not final.
Of course the idiocy was exposed, but the conspiracy theorists will quickly adjust and adapt yet more inanities to complete their conspiracies.
It is in their nature.
It doesn't matter if this isn't yet another example of fire bringing down reinforced concrete and steel structures. The truthers think they've got all the evidence they need for a conspiracy. But when I use the word think, I really mean invented and grasping at straws (but more realistically grasping at thin air) since there's nothing to their nonsensical ravings at all other than an unbridled hatred of the Administration and cannot accept the fact that there are jihadis out there that would commit mass murder by hijacking planes and flying them into buildings.
"You know, I was watching it all on TV...and it was so strange...and I turned to my Dad & my good buddy Sean Penn, and said, 'That looks just like a controlled demolition...'"
It will probably take a couple of days to clear the debris from the site and determine whether the adjacent structures are stable and can handle traffic loads. If they are, then a temporary structure could be assembled and used while the replacement structures are prepared.
Isn't is as clear as day!
Rove drove the tanker.
Cheney pimped the ride.
Bush chimped out the back.
Rumsfeld tortured the real driver.
There is no truck! it was a missile!
so clearly, the Jews did it.
Just as a sidenote, I recall after Northridge in 1994, a section of the 101 or I-10 (not sure, maybe even 405) down in LA was knocked out, and initial reports said it would take a couple of years to fix.
Some guy got the job done in two or three months and under cost.
That would be the I-10 at La Cienega, and they got it done by expediting the process and paying about a 200% premium. Worth it, absolutely. Not that the base price is exactly cheap, but whatcha gonna do? I see they already have the chisel trucks at work in Oakland - yesterday! Moving it right along.
Funny story, since the I-10 was closed, I took the opportunity to ride my bicycle along the freeway. I suppose I wasn't supposed to do that. I was just getting to the damaged area when I saw, way behind me, a cop car - doing big, fat S-turns all over the road. He was joyriding, just like me! But he saw me, zipped up, and told me to behave myself, and I just said yessir.
"This tanker incident is just too convenient... it was staged to divert the public's attention from the mess in Iraq...the fingerprints of Karl Rove are all over this..."
Even a Dem has to know she screwed up when the WaPo editorial condemns you, right?
No Results in Damascus
Having finished hosting U.S. politicians, Syria's dictator has returned to jailing dissidents and sponsoring terrorism.
THE CONGRESSIONAL leaders who visited Damascus this month to meet Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad gave a practical test to the oft-stated theory that "engaging" his regime is more likely to produce results than the Bush administration's policy of isolating it. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) was particularly unstinting in her goodwill, declaring that she had come to see Mr. Assad "in friendship, hope, and determined that the road to Damascus is a road to peace." In a statement, her delegation reported that it had talked to Mr. Assad about stopping the flow of foreign terrorists to Iraq and about obtaining the release of kidnapped Israeli soldiers. It also said it had "conveyed our strong interest in the cases of [Syrian] democracy activists," such as imprisoned human rights lawyer Anwar al-Bunni.
Three weeks have passed, so it's fair to ask: Has there been any positive change in Syrian behavior -- any return gesture of goodwill, however slight?
In the days following Pelosi's visit,
- Syria jailed reformers
- terrorists continue to flow across border into Iraq
- Hamas, with headquarters in Damascus, launched terror attacks on Israel
When are we going to get to the truth behind the sinking of The Titanic? Are we really to believe that for the first time in history ice cut steel? It wasn't an iceberg that sank the Titanic - it was another type of Berg. You know who I mean. Iceberg, Goldberg, they're all the same. Wake up America!
/obviously joking
Do you know how difficult that damn thing is making my commute, seriously though hopefully this deals a deathblow to those idiotic truther morons and their sick fantasies.
Mordant: I've always been amazed at how few differences there are between a highway overpass and two 110 story buildings.
Labman: No kidding. Without the weight of those 100+ floors on them, I'm surprised the roadbed didn't just float away after the metal holding it down was melted.
The Left will soon have something akin to the Zapruder film, showing the fuzzy outline of a bald, middle-aged man on a freeway overpass, holding a can of gasoline & a lit match. "It was Cheney!" CNN will do some "in-depth" pieces exploring this angle, with Paula Zahn-bie doing voiceover narration.
On the "melting" business, ya know, I think it virtually impossible that the road collapsed "because steel melted", because as the road heated up, the steel would first soften, and the road would collapse on that basis. If anything at all melted, that would come after. Whether an eight thousand gallon truck leaking gasoline can produce its own forced draft causing the fire to be hot enough to melt steel, this deponent knoweth not.
Its not even worth arguing with them. They only hear what they want.
Professor Emeritus in Physics: "...and you see, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Left, that fire can indeed melt steel."
Crowd with fingers in ears: "neener neener I can't hear you!"
About 2/3 the way down the thread, there is an excellent post by someone who declares that he hates Bush, BUT that doesn't mean he loses his ability to think LOGIC, so: (chastising a vacuous poster whingeing upthread)
a) possibility that Bush USED 9/11 for political gain? PROBABLE!
b) possibility that Halliburton laced the building with explosives prior? Slight to none
c) sliver of possibility that our government masterminded a mind-bogglingly murderous death for all those in WTC1 & 2, shot down Flight 93 over Pennsylvania and fired a missile into the Pentagon? NONE WHATSOEVER, don't be a dumbass!
/one of the most sensible Democrats I've read of in months!
First of all the so-called "truthers" are full of dung.
And speaking of conspiracy theories, does anyone ELSE think that Rosie O'Donnell's sudden retirement from "The View" is likely the result of her 9-11 conspiracy insanity?
I think what happened to her is likely the same as what happened to Dan Rather. . .instead of being outright canned, they gave her a "soft landing" to head off bad press (and lawsuits).
About 2/3 the way down the thread, there is an excellent post by someone who declares that he hates Bush, BUT that doesn't mean he loses his ability to think LOGIC, so: (chastising a vacuous poster whingeing upthread)
a) possibility that Bush USED 9/11 for political gain? PROBABLE!
b) possibility that Halliburton laced the building with explosives prior? Slight to none
c) sliver of possibility that our government masterminded a mind-bogglingly murderous death for all those in WTC1 & 2, shot down Flight 93 over Pennsylvania and fired a missile into the Pentagon? NONE WHATSOEVER, don't be a dumbass!
/one of the most sensible Democrats I've read of in months!
(format better now, sorry bout dat.) mea culpa
A few weeks ago, I was at a home of family member (bro-inlaw) who suffers from 9-11 truth syndrome. While barbequing, he started in trying to convince me that, "Jet fuel only burns at 800 degrees, and that's not hot enough to melt steel".
I pointed out, that 800F was only the minimum ignition temperature, but that if more fuel was added and fanned by high winds, the fire can get much hotter. "No way! That defies the laws of physics! It can only burn at one temperature!" he insisted.
At this point, the moonbat clearly needed a practical demonstration of the laws of physics. I reached for the dial on his barbeque and cranked it up to FULL. The burgers were engulfed with flames and his fancy new digital thermometer shot up. "Hey, what the f*ck are you doing?" cried my bro-inlaw.
"Oh don't worry," I told him, "the fire can only burn at one temperature." He quickly turned the dial back down to low and then stood there blinking at the barbeque. I think he was trying to process the new data: big fires really do get hotter!
I know a guy who recently told me, "Hey, I think I'm starting to believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theories." At that point I told him, "Stop, or I'll forcefully medicate you!"
First, I bet it could draft enough under that overpass to melt steel. Second, whether or not steel melted is irrelevant. I think we all use that event as a basis to make fun of Rosie O. All that needed to happen was for the fire to weaken the steel enough for a collapse, much like occurred in WTC7.
"Oh don't worry," I told him, "the fire can only burn at one temperature." He quickly turned the dial back down to low and then stood there blinking at the barbeque. I think he was trying to process the new data: big fires really do get hotter!
That's hilarious! Not to pick on your brother in law, (or your sister by association), but the image of him in my mind after reading that is of one of the Geico cavemen staring in wonder at this new-fangled thing called "fire."
A few weeks ago, I was at a home of family member (bro-inlaw) who suffers from 9-11 truth syndrome. While barbequing, he started in trying to convince me that, "Jet fuel only burns at 800 degrees, and that's not hot enough to melt steel".
Jet fuel ignites at around 105 degrees F, and the actual flame temperature depends upon a lot of variables. A good refinery fire leaves behind a lot of twisted metal.
The San Jose Mercury News offered a couple choice quotes from this incident . . .
Mosqueda managed to pull himself from the rolled-over wreckage before the inferno burned so hot that within an hour steel girders beneath one freeway overpass melted like a marshmallow, collapsing the roadway onto the lower freeway deck.
delicious - even for Rosie!
The tanker burned for almost three hours and released about the same energy as the split-second detonation of 200 tons of TNT, equal to a very low-yield atomic bomb, a homeland security expert said.
Thats a sobering prospect. One hopes that the homeland security department is paying very close attention.
Power grid maintenance trucks, $100,000 of equipment stolen in Arizona
* 26 October 2006: Three-(3) specially-outfitted and equipped power line maintenance trucks and more than $100,000 in tools were stolen from the Gila Substation Maintenance facility in Yuma county, Arizona sometime between 5:00 p.m. Friday, Octobe ...
Maryland Propane Theft Under Investigation * 25 February 2006: A truck containing propane tanks was stolen from United Propane, 205 Najoles Road in Millersville, Anne Arundel County, Maryland sometime between 9 p.m. Wednesday and 6 a.m. Thursday, February 23, 2006 when someone cut through ...
I work with a bunch of Civil Engineers and I told them about the 911truth.org nutcases. They cant believe what they are talking about. Their main comment is "They need to get L__d, BAD."
If you know any engineers and their demeanor you can appreciate how much of wack jobs these goobs really are.
I've been predicting 48 hours. Not too bad a guess. But then all of these 911 conspiracy whackos don't seem to have a collective two brain cells to rub together when it comes to basic physics and chemistry. (Not to mention manufacturing!)
After all, everyone knows that fire can't melt steel! What, they think you mine girders and car bodies? RIIIGHT...
Heaven help the next idiot who brings that stuff up with me. I've had my encounters with these fools, and they are always sorry they tried. I am merciless. Quite honestly I can't help it because it erupts from my core after having witnessed 9/11 with my own eyes.
I am an engineer and work in New York and everyone here thinks that these 9/11 truthers are completely insane...
They know nothing, do not understand materials science, nor do they understand basic science... It's truly unreal...
People just cannot grasp that there is a group of people out there who want us all dead...
In addition, these truthers think that George Bush is SO dumb that he could conceal this act of domestic terror for 5 years now without ANYONE running to the MSM... Gimme a break!
I also informed the guy the fires had more fuel in the form of furniture, paper, plastics, drywall and people. All those things burn. And the fact that the steel did not have to become molten liquid metal, only hot enough to loose structural strength. He said I should still see "Loose Change, it will at least make you stop and think."
"That movie has made a lot of people stop thinking all together" I corrected him.
I think I ruined a perfectly nice family barbeque. Again.
I'm not saying what, but [Haliburton]you know steel never melts [Chimpy], so something [da joos] we don't yet understand [neocons]made it happen. We need to investigate.
WASHINGTON (AP) - Republican presidential candidate John McCain envisions a "League of Democracies" as part of a more cooperative foreign policy with U.S. allies.
The Arizona senator will call for such an organization to be "the core of an international order of peace based on freedom" in a speech Tuesday at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University in Palo Alto, Calif.
"We Americans must be willing to listen to the views and respect the collective will of our democratic allies," McCain says, according to excerpts his campaign provided. "Our great power does not mean we can do whatever we want whenever we want, nor should we assume we have all the wisdom, knowledge and resources necessary to succeed."
"To be a good leader, America must be a good ally," he adds in the speech, another in a series of policy addresses as he seeks the Republican presidential nomination.
Such comments offer a contrast to President Bush, who critics contend has employed a stubborn, go-it-alone foreign policy that has dramatically damaged the U.S. image abroad.
McCain is careful to note that his proposed multinational organization would not be like Woodrow Wilson's failed "League of Nations." Rather, McCain says the organization would be far more similar to what Theodore Roosevelt favored—a group of "like-minded nations working together in the cause of peace."
"It could act where the U.N. fails to act," McCain says.
Such a new body, he says, could help relieve suffering in Darfur, fight the AIDS epidemic in Africa, develop better environmental policies, and provide "unimpeded market access" to countries sharing "the values of economic and political freedom."
And, McCain adds, an organization of democracies could pressure tyrants "with or without Moscow's and Beijing's approval" and could "impose sanctions on Iran and thwart its nuclear ambitions" while helping struggling democracies succeed.
Recalling Harry S. Truman's actions during the Cold War, McCain also urges a similar "massive overhaul of the nation's foreign policy, defense and intelligence agencies" to meet the world's current challenges. He says details will come later.
Of course, the AP idiot couldn't help but throw in the BS about Pres. Bush and being unilateral...McCain is, in fact, much more of a "unilateral" kinda guy than Bush.
Sadly, McCain is almost as bad as Bush on the Southern border, so he's not my candidate in the primaries.
My bold function seems to go haywire lately...I tried to bold this part too:
Such a new body, he says, could help relieve suffering in Darfur, fight the AIDS epidemic in Africa, develop better environmental policies, and provide "unimpeded market access" to countries sharing "the values of economic and political freedom."
And, McCain adds, an organization of democracies could pressure tyrants "with or without Moscow's and Beijing's approval"
Speaking of insanity from the left, over at HuffPo they are celebrating May Day ont he castro thread. One brain doaner left this:
Unbridled capitalism has killed more women and children than the communist regimes in Russia and China combined.
The world needs to have closely regulated free markets in industry and commerce and rational socialism in the services like health and education.
Corporatism is fascism and is harmful to the interests of the people. Government must return to being of, for and by the people and corporations deserve only the right to operate lawfully.
By: SPEAKINGTRUTH2POWER on May 01, 2007 at 11:11am
Um...the terms "closely regulated" and "free markets" are mutually exclusive, Einstein. Zimbabwe now has 2,200% inflation cause of their communism, but I suppose that is capitalism's fault in this morons mind. Karl Marx, was a loser who wanted to blame those who succeeded for his own failures.
Another example of what the left has become today.
Steel doesn't melt, eh? Sorry if this has been posted before (haven't read thread yet) but ask any soldier who serves(ed) in tanks with Armored Steel if steel burns. IIRC, current technology re: fighting armormed steel tanks still uses HEAT type rounds or missles, which burn through the armored steel and kill those inside by throwing around lots of super hot "shrapnel" inside the tank (and maybe also exploding tank ammo).
Truthers are just stupid - not ignorant cause then they could educate themselves - stupid and we all know there isn't any cure for STUPID.
Or just members of the Disloyal Oppostion.
108 Mark Roth. So you think the UN is hunky-dory? It's just great that China and Russia have the veto on the security council?
Hey, McCain might get my vote back if he changed his stupid Mexican border stance(he won't) and called for the UN to move its headquarters elsewhere. Hell, one of the two would mean he's worth a look.
Rosie said that fire can't melt steel, she must be right, after-all aren't there laws that keep people from lying on TV? Right? (Drag Exhale) The facts are that fire can't melt steel so a gasoline fire could not have melted the bridge! (Drag Exhale) K, there must be some other explanation. (Drag Exhale) You got any chips? Anyway Rove is pissed that Pelosi is showing up ChimpyMcBushHitler in foreign relations with Syria, Iran and all. (Drag Exhale) You sure you don't have any Doritos? Rove tells Cheney to tell Haliburton to wreak the tanker truck as cover, and they have a truck bomb in the city lot under bridge go off to knock it down. (Drag Exhale) Come on man, you got to have something to eat around here! All this to make the people who voting for Pelosi pay. (Drag Exhale) See it all fits!
OT - for a smile on each new thread: Good morning fellow green lizards, as well as those of other hues. The day has arrived: we herald the momentous occasion -
Hooray, hooray - the first of May...
outdoor screwin' starts today!
Care to wager that "SPEAKINGTRUTH2POWER" (isn't that nic original...) is a 20-year-old undergrad who's never been laid, and not likely to any time soon?
OK, now I know that a quick visit to a Fark thread in the five minutes before work is a mistake, since Fark comments are like Lays potato chips. However, laughing right out loud several times before working seems to be worth it.
Sadly, McCain is almost as bad as Bush on the Southern border, so he's not my candidate in the primaries.
McCain lost my support when he came out against the torture water-boarding of captured terrorists. I try to understand his position, his history, but screw that. This is war. Our way of life hangs in the balance. Finger-nail extraction is acceptable and similar technique is a fully acceptable practice IMO.
This poster is probably living in Mom's basement too. I invite the moron to move to Zimbabwe, or Venezuela, and see how close regulation and socialistic health care work out.
a number of buildings were completely obliterated by tornadoes in fort worth, tx. the tornado was classified as a class 2 tornado, meaning its maximum sustained winds would have been 157 mph. yet wood and glass debris was found embedded in concrete and and brick. for this to have occurred, the debris would have to have been driven into these surfaces at well over 200 mph. it's all just a government conspiracy to keep the insurance companies in business. they can claim the damage could not have been caused by such a weak tornado. by not investigating that the tornado may have been caused by cheney's weather machine, they are complicit in the event. we all know that debris like this cannot be driven into hard materials and that our tornado classification system is perfect and we never misclassify a tornado. there is no possibility that we don't completely understand the dynamics of the situation. it had to be an inside job.
/next on the list: government conspiracy to explain the lack of hot girls knocking at my door since i am classified as a severe stud
a) possibility that Bush USED 9/11 for political gain? PROBABLE!
/one of the most sensible Democrats I've read of in months!
I've interacted with a couple of dope-smoking Truther types elsewhere online, and my personal favorite piece of "evidence" was "It was just too convenient! It fit right in with the PNAC agenda!"
My goodness... Do you mean to say that a current event matched the agenda of a futurist think-tank? You know, people who are paid to think about, and invest in... *gasp*... THE FUTURE?
And, like, wow... This must be the first time in history EVER that a politician took advantage of a current event to push an agenda! Can you believe it! Fuckin' Republicans, doing stuff and reacting to things!
#100 Kenneth - Whoa, you are really knockin' 'em out of the park today! LOL! Just loved that story about the BiL barbecue and you're retort to the "go see 'Loose Change'" was absolutely PERFECT!
Ruin the barbecue? Nope only shed some non steel melting light on an important topic.
Just LMAO!
Can I come to the next barbecue? Pretty please?!
What's funny about that is... well let us count the ways
1) "notice how the concrete didn't turn to dust!" I guess that part of physics regarding potential energy becoming kinetic energy was a lecture series they missed.
2) all the "melting" that has to occur just needs to alter the geometry, thereby changing the loading of the structure allowing failure.
3) George Soros owns a bunch of Haliburton stock( 2 million bucks worth or 2 million shares) This was reported in Investor's Business Daily a while ago.
I know, I know! Hitler McChimpyburton and Darth Cheney used the driver as a patsy, and had him drugged and asleep, minutes before his remote controlled tanker was wrecked. This, all to disprove the truthers out there who are getting dangerously close to the truth about 9-11.
126 no limit Yeah, that pissed me off too...especially since his best buddy on that issue was Ted Kennedy.
129 Mark Roth heh no thanks on the book. I am happy to hear anybody on the national scene with the balls to take on China and Russia, and the UN for that matter. Hell, I'd even listen to a dimocrat who was willing to say the same things about those topics. So I hate to see McCain summarily dismissed if he could be successful in at least getting the UN/China/Russia discussion front and center for a while.
I much prefer Fred Thompson and Tom Tancredo. Thompson/Tancredo in '08
CHARLES - absolutely the funniest thread in a long time! Thanks a lot for this and thanks to all the lizards/lizardettes for making this such a side splitter of a thread!
136 Frog March Mike Rosen rocks. One reason I like Tom Tancredo (and know he's not stupid like his opponents will say) is I heard him several times on Rosen's show.
Rosen is one sharp cookie, and Tancredo didn't sound stupid in comparison.
Building fires, which normally reach temperatures of about 1000 ºC, can affect the loadbearing capacity of structural bearing elements in a number of ways.
Apart from such obvious effects as charring and spalling, there can be a permanent loss of strength in the remaining material and thermal expansion may cause damage in parts of the building not directly affected by the fire.
In assessing fire’s effects, the main emphasis should be placed on estimating the residual load-carrying capacity of the structure and then determining the remedial measures, if any, needed to restore the building to its original design for fire resistance and other requirements. Obviously, if weaknesses in the original design are exposed, these should be corrected.
All building materials except timber are likely to show significant loss of strength when heated above 250 ºC, strength that may not recover after cooling. Thus, it is useful to estimate the maxi maximum temperature attained in a fire. Molded glass objects soften or flow at 700 or 800 ºC. Metals form drops or lose their sharp edges as follows: 300 to 350 ºC for lead, 400 ºC for zinc, 650 ºC for aluminum and alloys, 950 ºC for silver, 900 to 1000 ºC for brass, 1000 ºC for bronze, 1100 ºC for copper and 1100 to 1200 ºC for cast iron. There are also the well-known color changes in concrete or mortar.
The development of red or pink coloration in concrete or mortar containing natural sands or aggregates of appreciable iron oxide content occurs at 250 to 300 ºC and, nor normally, 300 ºC may be taken as the transition temperature. Table A-1 provides specifics
I know it's kind of long, but it should be mandatory that this is tatooed on all truthers (since basic research and metallurgy is beyond them).
Although I live no where near Oakland, I saw George Chimpymcbushitler and DICK cheney running away from the scene with a chain saw and a empty gas can... and they were drinking,... drinking cocaine laced with BIG oil.
In the wake of the Oakland gas tanker incident, in which steel melted for only the second time in world history
ok, someone mind telling me what my grandpap was doing all those years in Pittsburg working at the "Steel Mill"? If steel has only been melted twice, why the hell was he going to work all those years? I know he wasn't in R & D trying to find ways to melt steel with fire...
Did you see my response to your draft question the other day? If not, click on my footbal and go back a day or so, you will find it. Upshot is the drafted QB has demonstrated the ability to read a defense and has a strong arm. The other one did not.
People, people! Isn't it obvious that global warming caused the collapse! The increase in global temperature expanded the steel so much that it became so fragile that fire could melt it, while it couldn't in 2001, when there wasn't so much carbon dioxide.
Now, you ask, how can you prevent other bridges from collapsing (besides impeaching Bush and Cheney NOW, of course)?
Buy my carbon offsets! Only ten bucks a piece.
Others will offer you counterfit offsets, but mine have the genuine Church of Goracle and the UN Commission Saints seal of approval, absolutely guaranteed to cancel out all the carbon dioxide you've released in the past week.
Well, I put on my tinfoil helmet and Death Ray Deflector Vest (patent pending) and took a trip to Koslamistan.
Because there's nothing there yet, it's obvious the Kooky Kult Kiddyz are busy arguing who Kosling Conspiracy Theory No.___ will prove did it.
Wild guesses include:
Tony Snow
Glenn Beck
Rush Limbaugh
Mark Levin
Diane "War Profiteer" Feinstein
Karl Rove
zombie
Joe Lieberman
Exxon
WalMart
The Bushchimphitler-Pajamashadeen-Joooish Conspiracy
All of the above
I am I really asked to believe that steel cannot melt? Forgive me for asking, but where do we get all these things that are molded or cast from molten steel. Didn't I see a documentary with a big bucket thingy holding molten steel?
Heh. Kinda appropriate that when I landed on this page to read the (hilarious) comments, this is what Frank had to say:
Scientology, how about that? You hold on to the tin cans and then this guy asks you a bunch of questions, and if you pay enough money you get to join the master race. How's that for a religion? -- Concert at the Rockpile, Toronto, May 1969
to be specific, When I worked at Fairless Works in Pa, a US Steel plant, I worked around molten steel all the time, in the open hearth and as a steel pourer, looked pretty liquid to me, around 2900-3000 degrees but definitely liquid. During several "breakouts" when steel broke out of the open hearth onto the floor, steel girders in the flow often bent into pretzel shapes like they were made of wax. Steel deforms rapidly in intense heat, as little as 1800 degrees, the furnaces used natural gas jets combined with oxygen lances to increase the heat to 3,000 degrees where steel boiled like soup. Quite a place, now the industry uses only oxygen furnaces, open hearths are obsolete.
That's the meaning of the acronym. What actually gets through the armor is the jet-piercement action of a shaped charge; a focussed explosion, if you will.
There is actual heat involved, but it would be simplistic to think that the HEAT round simply melts through the armor.
Steel can indeed burn, as anyone who has ever operated a cutting torch can tell you.
If you want a dramatic demonstration of burning steel, get a wad of fine steel wool, and a Bic lighter. Pretty fireworks ensue.
Drywall does burn, if you get it hot enough. Gypsum is calcium sulfate dihydrate, which for centries has been burned to produce plaster of Paris. A biproduct of gypsum combustion is sulphur dioxide. The 9-11 Untruthers make a big deal about all the "unexplained" sulphur compounds found in the World Trade Center debris as evidence of bombs. Well, the towers contained millions of tons of sulphur in the drywall and cement.
If you want a dramatic demonstration of burning steel, get a wad of fine steel wool, and a Bic lighter. Pretty fireworks ensue.
Excellent fire starter if you are on a canoe trip: a bit of fine steel wool & a squirt of WD40, keep it in a tin can with a tight fitting lid. No matter how wet you get, it will always start a fire.
#174 Alberta Oil Peon - Hey, I was a grunt - infantry. All I know is what we were taught, that HEAT rounds burn a hole through the steel armor (not melt it). My point was simply to ilustrate what you said: steel does in fact burn.
Forgive me if this has already been addressed, but the above is incorrect. The flashpoint of jet fuel A can be as low as ~110 degrees F, but that's not the same thing as the ignition temperature. The flashpoint is considerably lower than the required ignition temperature.
The San Jose Mercury News offered a couple choice quotes from this incident . . .
The tanker burned for almost three hours and released about the same energy as the split-second detonation of 200 tons of TNT, equal to a very low-yield atomic bomb, a homeland security expert said.
Ouch, my head! Where to begin with this noise. I know that most papers are weak on science, but can't they keep someone's cell number around for special occassions?
200 tons of TNT ... First, that sounds wrong, I'd guess 40 tons (if that's what the truck carried) of gasoline would equate to maybe 80 tons of TNT at most, and that only cuz it uses atmospheric oxygen. Second, 200 tons is a mighty small atomic bomb, what if it was 2 tons, are 0.002 tons? I'm sure someone can make a nuke bomb that weak, just make it misfire on purpose. Whatever. But most of all, the equivalent isn't really the point, you get destruction by *concentrating* energy in space and time, so even a couple of pounds of C4, with much less total energy, might bring down a structure better than tons of gasoline, because when C4 goes, it goes FAST and on a tiny space. Bring that up a level and you get armor-piercing shaped charges that blow through solid steel like it wasn't there, with just a pound or three of explosive. I don't know if that's officially "melting" or not, whatever.
This is all pretty much "are you smarter than a ninth-grader" stuff. I think every TV reporter goes on about the "melted steel", oh pu-leeze.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out there was a cascade in the road collapse something like the WTC - one lousy bolt softens and stretches, putting more stress on the next that stretches at lower temperature, until the third one snaps, and the whole junction collapses even though it's barely warm yet, ... probably saved fifty bucks on construction, but would have been fine, except for the fire.
A definition: Rosie O'Donnelloid;adjective, having the appearance or character resembling a human being. (esp. in science fiction) a being resembling a human in its exaggerated shape. Known for numerous failed attempts to imitate human intelligence, marriage, parenthood and political acumen. Noted for lectures on the properties of steel especially as it relates to heat and combustion. Can neither control what goes into or out its opening in the lower part if its head.
"...Republicans, doing stuff and reacting to things!"
REALLY! They're WATCHING, through their OWN EYES, on LIVE TV, as the second plane SLAMS into the WTC tower... and watching as, minutes later, the plane-weakened, heat-weakened building collapses...
But believe their OWN LYING EYES?
No Way, Man! There HAD TO BE more to it that Muslim thugs flying planes full of fuel and Americans into the buildings at speed! It just doesn't fit into MY WORLD VIEW! (toke! suck! honk! drool!)
Your comment re: Frank's comment brought back a memory circa 1973-ish. Friends got hooked into the Scientology "awakening" and hosted a "party" - which is what I literally thought it was going to be when I said "Sure, I'll go with you..."
The cans were exactly that - Minute Maid orange juice cans, the small size. It was difficult to be polite, much less keep a straight face while rolling eyes/looking for door.
That photo is a total fake! Everyone knows that fire can't melt steel, and that there's no way the top 25 floors of a building on top of the fire that isn't melting the steel would fall anyway, never mind a single bridge span!
Besides, you can tell it's a fake... there are no globular clusters to be seen anywhere.
JET A-1 (highly refined kerosene)
Flash point: 38 °C
Autoignition temperature: 210 °C
Freezing point: -47 °C (-40 °C for JET A)
Open air burning temperatures: 260-315 °C (500-599 °F)
Maximum burning temperature: 980 °C (1796 °F)
Structural Steel
melting point: 1370 degrees C (2500°F), while at 1,000 C the strength of steel is 10 percent of its room temperature value
NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers
By far, the hulk hogan picture was the best of the bunch on that thread...there were some other good ones to, like the bunny and pancake...but the hogan pic take the cake.
Actually, Rosie was the second thing that came to mind - first was that the frootloopertroothers would be all over it like it was the holy grail, and before the ink was dry - or the pixels aligned, or whatever the appropriate vernacular would be.
A few (more & other) words for Rosie and her merry band of dilusional dipwads: steel mill = MOLTEN steel. MOLTEN steel = LIQUID steel. LIQUID STEEL: result of application of fire (as in a blast furnace) to iron ore.
I could be mistaken, or even just plain wrong, but I've never seen evidence of formed steel - such as railroad tracks, I-Beams, World Trade Centers 1,2 & 7, etc, growing on trees. Seems to me those things are molded from that LIQUID STEEL.
Huh, for the last several post y'all have been providing pretty uncontrovertible evidence of what all (or at least most) of us knew to begin with: steel burns, steel melts and steel loses it's intended structural strength at certain temperatures.
I want to talk about the FEELINGS here - can't we get back to the funny posts? (sorry, all out of funny myself right now!)?
If you look closely at the videos of the tanker fire raging on that overpass, you'll see little puffs of smoke all around... those are the M80s that the local Rotary Club (the true masterminds of it all) planted to bring down the span! I'm peach!
#199 Seraphym - don't feel unclean - that was actually pretty funny! (don't know what THAT says about me!). These Truthers wouldn't bother me so much with their theories if they even half assed TRIED applying honest science to their efforts.
But they don't cause they don't give a crap about the truth.
I think we're on the same page, almost. I think it would be fair to say that a HEAT round works like a cutting torch on steroids. A large part of the cutting action derives from small particles of the explosive's inner shell, abetted by an ever-increasing concentration of steel droplets, orbiting around at an insane speed in the kernel of the explosion, and literally auguring through the armor plate the way a high-pressure water jet will cut through a mudbank.
I've seen the perforating charges used in the oilfield to punch through a well casing to open up a producing zone. They are little rounded cones of rubber about the size of a plum, hollow on the base, with a hollow liner of thin metal, and can easily punch a hole through 3/8" steel pipe wall.
Personally, I love the truthers at times... they remind me that, no matter how hard something might be for me in my job, my life, whatever, at least I'm not a f*cking idiot.
Must have been a bush plot to discredit the truthers. Top secret super slow motion youtube video proves it really wasn't a truck but a combination controlled demolition and missle strike.
I was reading the comments at Fark regarding this incident when I came across this one. Thought it was too good not to post here:
Attention truthers:
Go to colonial williamsburg or something like it, or if your town has some nutty old-fashioned blacksmith, go see him.
Watch him heat iron in a fire, then bend it easily by hitting it with a hammer. (and before you complain that iron isn't steel remind yourself that most swords, for example a Japanese katana, are in fact made of steel and were also shaped with hammers, forges, and brute strength)
Note that the metal does not melt, but does become softer as it heats. Contemplate the idea that 10-20 stories' worth of skyscraper weighs a lot and can probably exert more pressure than a guy with a hammer.
Fun Demonstration to Try At Home!
Put some string cheese in the freezer overnight. In the morning, make a little tower by balancing a book on top of the hardened string cheese. Wait a while for the string cheese to defrost. THAT'S AMAZING! the cheese isn't nearly hot enough to melt, but still it got too soft to hold up the book!
So, how will Mayor Gavin deal with this crisis? I remember when the freeways collapsed after the northridge quake. Riordan did aways with months of review and planning and minority bidding. And then promised the contractor a bonus for every day they came in ahead of schedule.
This a very real engineering problem that will not be impressed with boyish looks or microphone tricks.
I guess someone already dealt with this, but has anyone offered to take any truthers to a steel plant? I mean, how do they think those huge girders get like that...they were hatched from some giant egg or what?
"Look at these arrows. Now look at these arrows pointing to the other arrows. It proves that one arrow leads to another. But how did a burning truck create these arrows?"
Has anyone commented on how many Jews stayed home in the Bay area that day?
I am late getting on today and I see you beat me too it :-(
I remember those idiots at LooseChange referring to the Popular Mechanics article about 9/11 as a bunch of Red Necks. Well, I guess those Red Necks are now proven to know more about engineering than the college drop-outs at LooseChange.
15 Jammie...It was the Santa Monica FWy- I 10 like you said. A very complicated triple overpass section. The Contractors name was C.F.Myers. He had a big bonus for finishing ahead of schedule. And he did. He hired the best crews for 3 shifts a day. The job was finished in 59 days!
Irrc, Myers wanted to by a new plane and the bonus would cover it and so he got the bonus and thus the plane.
To me the Truther's issue with the WTC hasn't so much been that steel doesn't melt, but that it doesn't weaken sufficiently in burning jet fuel (wtf?) to yield...I then tell them that's bunk, and shove my MS in Metallurgy in their faces. Still, they won't listen to reason...I then remind them that paranoia is a medically treatable condition.
If steel were left in burning jet fuel or gas, it would get up to about 2100°F, which is a dull orange, maybe yellow glow. Steel doesn't melt until around 2500 - 2700°F, depending on the alloy. There are very few materials out there that can survive and carry a heavy load at 2100°F - you find most of them in the engine of a 747. It's a little pricey to make a skyscraper out of nickel and cobalt, though.
15 Jammie...It was the Santa Monica FWy- I 10 like you said. A very complicated triple overpass section. The Contractors name was C.F.Myers. He had a big bonus for finishing ahead of schedule. And he did. He hired the best crews for 3 shifts a day. The job was finished in 59 days!
Irrc, Myers wanted to by a new plane and the bonus would cover it and so he got the bonus and thus the plane.
I mentioned this guy to a friend of mine who was working on a project about good management skills. This guy was amazing. I remember they got mad at him because he finished it so early that his bonus was big. (they set the deadline). I believe he at one point purchased a railroad because he was having problems getting the steel delievered on time.
They need to get the company that rebuilt the I-10 interchange down south after the Northridge Quake. They promised them a bonus of something like $100,000 per day they came in under the estimated time and I think the company collected something to the effect of $1,000,000. The company has said it's available.
I go by this in the a.m. on my way to the Bay Bridge. Pictures don't do it justice.
Kudos to several of the previous comments. I want to add something from the not too distant past regarding fires and steel.
Back in 1967 I was living in Chicago. On January 16, 1967 there was a fire at McCormick Place, a large steel building used primarily for trade shows. The Chicago Public library has a short article about this event on-line [Link: www.chipublib.org...] where you can get more detail.
Some notes:
1) The timeline gives about 50 minutes between "smoke coming from the back of a booth" and "the roof had started collapsing". This is roughly the amount of time the WTC was able to stand after the attack.
2) "The unprotected steel roof trusses failed early on in the fire". I have not heard anyone ask the "steel does not melt in fire" crowd the question "If structural steel is not in danger from simple fires, then why do modern building codes require fire protection measures specifically for structural steel?"
3) Use of the term "melt" does not necessarily have the classic meaning of changing from a solid to a liquid the way ice turns to water at room temperature. As several others have pointed out in previous comments, melting steel simply means heating it to a high enough temperature that it loses enough strength that it is not able to provide structural integrity and can be permanently deformed with relatively low loads.
4) As others have pointed out there are a constant stream of industrial cases of melting steel with fire. I am also certain history provides a somewhat less frequent number of accidents and other events with similar results.
I cannot resist one more example. This one is 150 years old and occurred during the U.S. civil war. See the description of general Sherman's neckties: [Link: ngeorgia.com...]
If you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen!
Nice to see Rosen get some props here. He's incredibly smart and intellectually facile. Also indispensible when it comes to dismantling the Left -- perhaps the best in radio.
Highly recommend his "Rosen Replay" option for those who can't tune in for broadcast hours.
If you really want to mess with Moonbats' minds, ask them this: If steel doesn't melt, why to they sell all those fire-resistant storage containers and safes? Why does UL fire protection list time and temperature specs?
"I guess someone already dealt with this, but has anyone offered to take any truthers to a steel plant?"
Getting a truther anywhere close to place where actual constructive work is going on will require either subterfuge or tranquilizers. The truther will prefer the tranquilizers. Subterfuge is more fun.
Assuming you have got the truther into the mill, your best bet is to hand them over to a floor manager, inquire as to the location of a rest room and run like hell, leaving the truther to find its own way home. This will spare you having to listen to the truther rant about the damage the mill is doing to the environment for the "greed-heads'" profit.
Don't be surprised if you receive an angry letter from the floor manager.
I know Bush was involved in 9-11 and the Oakland bridge collapse. Fire requires 3 elements: heat, fuel, and oxygen. Look at how the sun is on fire, yet there is no oxygen anywhere around! This proves Bush was involved.
--Timbre, United for Truth and Justice contributor, (when feeling frisky).
I'm a resident of the East Bay. We've been keeping abreast of this mess since we heard it on the radio/tv/Intarweb. We all know that crews around the clock of been working diligently to clean the wreckage from the scene so engineers can get in and assess the situation. These "truthers" are a bunch of dimwitted asshats.
No, the reason for this staged fake accident was to prevent the Citizens of the World from getting to the May Day Anti-Citizens rally!
To add to the list, on March 25 2004, a truck carrying around 11,000 gallons of home heating oil crashed on I-95 in a construction zone in Bridgeport, CT melting the structural steel of the bridge...
"The intensity of the fire was so great that it caused the roadway to sag several feet and damaged steel girders that supported the overpass, officials said. Spilled oil that rose from the highway in a flammable mist fueled the blaze, Maglione said. The first firefighters to reach the scene reported that the bridge's 2-foot-thick girders were glowing bright orange from the heat, which Maglione estimated to have reached 1,800 to 2,000 degrees. "At that point," he said, "they did what firefighters do, and put heavy water on the fire." The flames were extinguished in about three hours."
Prior to the time of the accident, a local TV station had reported that motorists would see more police on I-95 because of a higher state of alert issued to police over a report that someone was going to crash an oil tanker on I-95 (a copy of that TV report was grabbed and time-stamped by Google News), but after the accident, the police agencies denied that there had been any special bulletin and the incident was not terrorist related, merely just a coincidence.
Truther Logic: Hitler had a nose; Bush has a nose. Hitler had 2 eyes; Bush has 2 eyes. Hitler had a mouth; Bush has a mouth. Is Bush Hitler? What do you think? A buddy of mine lent me a bootleg copy of Loose Change. Its full of screwy logic trains like this. And I really want to know how a B52 crashed into the Empire State Building years before the plane was even off the drawing board. Did the Truther mean to say B25,or did some secret skunk works in Area 51 have a prototype that crashed? (9/11 dry run) Or does he not know what he is talking about? What do you think?
I know I am late to this, but I have seen quite a few of these over the years, aside from the ones mentioned already in this thread here is one from not too long ago... (Jan 2006)
Don't be fooled. What seems simple is usually a complicated conspiracy.
Breaking News: Cheney Witnessed Fleeing Site of "Accident"
[Link: 429truth.org...]
Breaking News: Cheney Witnessed Fleeing Site of "Accident"
May 1st, 2007
In an astonishing photograph taken by local anti-war/globalization/money college professor Ronald P. Livingston we can clearly see vice president Cheney fleeing the scene of the "accident" (what a 'dick'). 429 Truth went to great lengths to obtain this picture as FBI agents were decending upon Professor Livingston's house as we were arriving to view the photograph. We believe that the FBI agents were there abusing their powers under the Patriot Act in an effort to take this photograph and help coverup what happened. The FBI did confiscate about 30 6ft tall Maui Waui plants from Livingston's Berkely apartment BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT PEOPLE. We need to wake up to what is happening here! We won't know how high this conspiracy goes until we keep uncovering more facts. For now we think that this goes beyond the president, we think this goes all the way to GOD (if he were to exist, which he doesn't).
Frank says:
