Evil, victorious?!
Bah.

Israel will always be involved in wars until it completely crushes and conquers its enemies. Harsh, but true.

Evil must be destroyed. Hopefully Israel won't hold back next time they're attacked.

Oy

The only strength Jizbollah has gained is the stench of goat against their groins.

Israel was not militarily defeated. It was not Israel that was braying for a ceasefire. The problem was that Israel had bad leadership which did not have the right war aims.

So how many more days before Olmert steps down and the Israelis have to elect a new government?

I t merely proves the theory, if you go to war, you must go all out, no "winning hearts and minds" crap, you make the enemy unable and unwilling to carry on the fight, the next time jizzbola and hamas decide to take on israel, the politicians should be seen and not heard, let the military dictate how the war will be fought, (just a thought, this would probably work well in iraq)

The commentators from Yediot aren't predicting another war, they're saying it is a miracle that Israel is still around:

Before yesterday, three people were worried about the findings of Winograd's interim report. As of this morning, it should worry all of us. Not only worry. Frighten. Shock us.

According to the interim report's conclusions, we are not talking about mere failures. We are talking about this country's continued existence being a true miracle. Because a country whose prime minister failed in exercising judgment, whose defense minister failed in doing his job, whose chief of staff made false presentations and contributed decisively to the flaws and failures, whose General Staff suffered from lack of creativity, and whose government voted without understanding what it was voting on – is a country that was abandoned.

This is a country without leadership. This is a country whose army disappointed it. It is a country whose government is pathetic and whose ministers are unworthy of serving in their posts.

This another Yom Kippur War-type, wake-up call.

Does anyone doubt that there’s going to be another war?

Don't worry. French UN peace keepers are there taking notes.

Next time will be very different.

#8 taxfreekiller

Ah, tfk...I think Somebody else had a hand in it, for a better purpose down the line...no? :)

There will always be another war.

Capability plus motivation = War. Age old formula.

You must remove capability or motivation to prevent, win or end wars.

Where will the West find leaders who are actually willing to fight to win, without tying the military's hands or worrying about how the enemy feels?

Bear in mind that islamo-fascists live in a paralel universe, in which terms have other meanings. For them, "victory" is whatever they want it to mean, starting from actually defeating the enemy all the way to the point where the enemy stops attacking them.

Don't forget that in the early 90s Saddam said that he was victorious against international forces, after being kicked out from Kuwait, even though his army was in such a desperate state, that they were surrending to ...journalists!

Well, if you consider a victory to be accomplishing your aims, not losing any ground, humbling the enemy on the international stage, and gaining power within your own arena... I suppose they're right. They did win.

And yes, there will come another war, probably with more open support from Syria, since they've observed that the negative consequences of stepping in are virtually nil.

In a fatalistic vein, perhaps we do need to step back, regroup, build up our forces massively (which would require serious arm-twisting of the democrat congress), and wait for the real sh-- to hit the fan. There's no doubt that it's coming, and we've got little hope of doing anything to head it off if half our politicians see sabotaging the effort as a really good way to gain votes. What's a few hundred thousand dead here and there across the globe, as long as you can in in November?

Unfortunately, they are right - this time. Israel did lose. Not militarily, but because their "leadership" - and I say that with tongue in cheek - allowed "world opinion" and "diplomacy" to override Israel's own self interest.

They have forgotten their founding principles. Israeli "leadership" in the last couple of years is frankly starting to look not too much different than the Jewish leadership in the Warsaw ghetto: "If we do what they want and give them enough, then they will just leave us alone."

NOT.

There isn't going to be "another" war - the summer war isn't over yet. The French are still guarding the gates for hizballah while they rearm.

Does anyone doubt that there’s going to be another war?

The Hizbos will start it by firing away for days before the Israelis respond, at which time the Uf*ckingN will leap to the defence of "the Lebanese people" and denounce the Israelis. As always.

Where will the West find leaders who are actually willing to fight to win, without tying the military's hands or worrying about how the enemy feels?

The job of the western politician is to get elected and re-elected or so they see it. Their second job is to enrich themselves, their families and their friends.

Anything and everything else is secondary.

Good war leaders only come in the time of direst need. One day the wait and see approach may backfire big time.

#16 Mats

"Hey, we're not dead? WE WIN!"

robert in england

Your wish is my command:

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i would hope this would be a lesson for our government. timetables and conceding defeat has serious consequences. our enemies would do the exact same thing hezbollah is doing now. but i'm sure we'll continue to try and blame a few AMERICAN people for the unfortunate situation in iraq.

Question for the weapons experts among us. The gun in the Yoni the Blogger link - what kind is it and what's the deal with the scope.

Is this some of American taxpayer funded weaponry in the hands of the Palestinian terrorists via Fatah? You know, this is just humanitarian aid.

My own coverage on the Winograd report is here. Also blogging is Carl in Jerusalem.

Quite a few people have been saying for months that Hizbullah won simply by continuing to exist well past the end of the war and that UNIFIL is ignoring their rearmament and regrouping, despite UN SCR 1559 and 1701 that specifically prohibit the existence of any militias inside Lebanon.

Nice to see the UN living up to its obligations, and Israel's leadership has pinned ISrael's security needs to a woeful and inept UN? That speaks volumes as to the inept Israeli leadership. From Olmert on down to Halutz, they were incompetent and unable to meet any of the goals they set forth at the outset.

Goldwasser and Regev are still held by Hizbullah and the rocket threat remains. Iran and the other terror regimes have seen just how well they can do against Israel - especially when Israeli leadership doesn't have the resolve to eliminate Hizbullah and trying to politik its way out of the situation.

Socialists are incompetent in every country, it seems.

#27 lawhawk

Not seeing the weapon you're asking about, could you relink to it?

First decision of Olmert/Peretz after this report:
[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

Beleaguered Olmert Seeks Refuge, Plans to Uproot Yesha Outposts

by Hillel Fendel

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has asked Defense Minister Amir Peretz - both of whom are under heavy pressure to resign - to prepare an organized plan to destroy small Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria.

News of Olmert's request was included in a State response submitted to the Supreme Court today (Tuesday). The suit in question, submitted last year by Peace Now and a group of Arabs, charges that the community of Migron is illegal and must be destroyed.

Olmert has asked that the plan be ready within two months. He has thus apparently changed his policy regarding the destruction of unauthorized outposts. In the past, he has frozen plans to do so, explaining that the timing was not right in light of the diplomatic situation with the Palestinian Authority.

Migron: Strategically Situated
Situated atop a strategic hill, north of Jerusalem, between Beit El, Psagot, and Michmash, Migron is included in Olmert's request for destruction plans. Peace Now, the radical left-wing organization working tirelessly to destroy the Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria [Yesha], claims that most of land on which Migron was built belongs to Arabs.

Migron residents, however, say Peace Now worked hard to find the Arabs in question and convinced them to file the suit against the Jewish town.

#29 kragar:

Here's the photo.

From Yoni's post here.

#6

"Israel was not militarily defeated. It was not Israel that was braying for a ceasefire. The problem was that Israel had bad leadership which did not have the right war aims."

It boils down to the same thing. Israel can not currently win with their attitude of excessive worry about "innocent" civilians.

They also have perverted rules of engagement and ethics promulgated by Asa Kasher that put their troops in extreme danger.

Additionally, they have an attitude of unilateral concessions and defeat.

They don't have the will or the philosophy to win. It doesn't matter that they might have a technologically better military.

I think that its time that (next time) Israel just went ahead and did a massive wipe out like they have seemingly been wanting to.

Quit listening to Bush and whoever, and just do what they have to do.

I think the fact that Hizbollah proclaims themselves the winner is pretty meaningless. They've done this many times before. No matter how many times they fail to destroy Israel, the Arabs keep on thinking that the next time, they're going to do it.

Which is not to say that Israel didn't make some serious errors, or that they don't have serious problems to fix.

The Jerusalem Post has an interesting analysis that points out how good the Winograd Report is for Israel--if the leadership follows its recommendations. The fact that Halutz resigned is one indication that they are already implementing the necessary changes.

I am very, very, very worried for Israel, because the Syrian threat has gotten worse--they've dug bunkers along the border and filled them with missiles--and Hizbollah is re-arming, and Hamas has smuggled tons of weaponry into Gaza. If another war breaks out this summer, it will be a bad one.

But the IDF hasn't been stagnant. Changes have been implemented since the summer. Something that the Arabs never seem to remember: Israel learns from her mistakes. And for Israel, it is an existential thing. To lose the war--to truly lose it--is to cease to be. There are more than five million Jews in Israel who have no intention of going anywhere.

Am Yisrael Chai. The people of Israel live.

Some good news!

Israeli media predicts Olmert resignation

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has a "noose tightening" around his neck and is in a "brotherhood being led to the gallows", Israeli newspapers said, after the publication of a report into his conduct of the Lebanon war.

#27 lawhawk

You mean this?

It's a typical long m16. It has a vertical handle attached. They joined 2 magazines, the guy in the front has plastic magazines and the guy in the background has aluminium. All standard stuff in the IDF, so it's probably stolen. As to the scope I have no idea.

lawhawk

that looks like a late model M-16

M-16, with hand grip and scope mounted to the carrying handle. Probably bought for Pali security forces during the Clinton years.

#32

Israel cannot win against Arab terrorists because it has the treasonous criminal gang as a Government, who declared as their main goal the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea and Samaria after they had implemented the first step of this crime against humanity in Gaza. Olmert declared during this war, that that was the goal of the war:

'This war will give a tail wind to the Disengagement Plan. It will give us the force and power to continue doing what we did in Gush Katif in the whole of Judea and Samaria.'

Livni was begging for ANY Security Council resolution from day one of the War. They all say that they open to ANY Peace initiatives and mostly interested in "painful consessions".

No one is invincible.

Israel has received a wakeup call. The population was growing complacent and the generals had grown arrogant. Training was reduced, and equipment was lacking. A lot was taken for granted that should not have been.

Israel of today is not the same country that it was 30 years ago. And the change is not for the better.

Tragic as this war was, and possibly unnecessary, I believe that history will show that it was actually a fortunate occurrence for Israel, allowing it to be much better prepared for the next, inevitable, conflict.

UNLIKE the patehtic and corrupt Arab states who deny that they EVER lost a war, Israel still has the strength and courage to admit their failures, and therefore still has the potential to learn from mistakes and improve future outcomes. This has ever been one of the strengths leading democracies and open societies to long term victory over dictatorships and terror-controlled countries.

As I allways said, had we strong governmnent with strong leader and not Olmert/Peretz/Halutz trio - Hezbolla would be annihilated (we'd have lost much more people of course, but war is war).
Our army is not in best shape, but it is still very strong and motivated. Soldiers had amazing will to fight.
I anticipate another round vs Hezbolla. Being led by someone with guts, we'll show them "Devine victory". They'll have a great time with their virgins.

Israel should send a memo to lebanon saying that there will be no mercy and many civilain deaths if one rocket lands.
and then back it up! infact activly target all "green helmet journalists"

Big deal. They've been declaring victory since back before the war even started.

Hamas Leader Threatens Renewed Violence

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - The supreme leader of Hamas threatened violence if an international aid embargo isn't lifted and demanded in an interview published Monday that Israel release top Palestinian leaders in return for a captured soldier.

Renewed violence? That implies the violence had stopped before.

#15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir) 5/01/2007 9:04:43 am PDT

Where will the West find leaders who are actually willing to fight to win, without tying the military's hands or worrying about how the enemy feels?

I don't know. The MSM won't tell us. They don't want us to find them.

Repost; originally posted 24 April:
Former chief of Italian peacekeeping unit stresses need for respect, credibility

By Iman Azzi, Daily Star staff
Tuesday, April 24, 2007

BEIRUT: Credibility and reciprocal respect are the two most important qualities needed to run an effective peacekeeping mission in South Lebanon, the outgoing senior officer responsible for Sector West of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) said on Monday.
[snip]
Gerometta and 130 other members of the Italian contingent left Lebanon Monday after completing a six-month tour of duty. General Maurizio Vairavanti replaces him. Italian Major General Claudio Graziano heads the entire UNIFIL force.
[snip]
As for Gerometta, the general said he hoped to return to Lebanon in the future: "But not to return with UNIFIL but with my family, as a tourist. Inshallah."

Outgoing guy sure sounds like a man of peace. I'm confident his replacement is just as good.

#15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where will the West find leaders who are actually willing to fight to win, without tying the military's hands or worrying about how the enemy feels?

They will find them in the exact same place where they find a trully democratic islamic nation. (= nowhere)

I'm afraid that the significant pressure for restraint came from the Bush administration. That is the pressure that the Israeli government would pay most attention to.

Let 'em gloat and think they won.

Next time its gloves off, and Israel will gut Southern Lebanon.

The Winograd report makes it clear that Isreal failed in its war because of the incompetence of its leaders. Olmert, Peretz, and Halutz were each criticized for failure of leadership. It wasn't because Israel didn't have enough time or was restrained by the State Dept or anyone else. The Israili leadership didn't know how to win the war. They didn't know what they were doing and they didn't ask anyone who did.

There were also other institutional failures in the IDF as well as political decisions going back six years, (mainly the policy of containment against HB and reduction in funding for the IDF) that contributed.

One can only hope that this report and other IDF analyses will result in big changes to restore the abilities of the IDF and the emergance of a new govt that knows what it's doing. This is a very dangerous time for Israel and it needs to be prepared.

The really sad thing is that well into the 3rd week they could have gone into the Bekka and enticed Syria and Iran into the war.

Hezbollah's "victory" is that they weren't totally anihilated.

In Net terms, they lost and Israel won.

Before the war, Hexbollah were larging it up on the border, shelling the shit out of Israel whenever they wanted.

Now - they can't.

So much for victory.

That said, Israel could have anihilated them, but didn't.

Again, if being beaten up, but not killed is a victory, then bravo Hezbollah.

Also, if Netanyahu wins office over this, then that IS a victory for Israel.

Will Israel EVER learn. Everytime they hold back it ends up the same way. The other side see it as weakness, uses it to embolden the troops, and then they re-arm themselves for another round.

Same.Thing.Every.Time.

Next time, just DESCIMATE them. To hell with the vaunted international community, they are incompetant at best, and corrupt at worst...Israel will get nowhere listening to them.

The question is, when the Kassams begin raining down in Northern Israel again, will they have the gumption to just say enough is enough this time? If history is any indication, I say no.

Olmert should resign. The winograd report clearly places responsible for the outcome on Olmert. A policy of containment only gives the enemy time to gain strength. With out a decisive victory peace is unatainable. Lessons learned by Hezbos, Iranians and Hamas...land for peace really works out well for them.

The whole Olmert's government of criminals and/ or braindead opportunists should step down. The only thing that is worse for Israel, than keeping Olmert in power is replacing him with Livni or Peres.

#58 mad_scientist

Next time, just DESCIMATE them.

The term "decimate" derives from an old Roman Army punishment in which lots are drawn, and 10% of a unit are then killed by their comrades.

In other words, "decimate"=kill 10% of them.

I think the word you are looking for is "ANNIHILATE".

All true...arrogant, stupid, and corrupt leaders are dangerous...smart, strategic and resolute leaders...in short supply.

32 Facts of Life: "Israel was not militarily defeated. It was not Israel that was braying for a ceasefire. The problem was that Israel had bad leadership which did not have the right war aims."

Wrong! I am no Bush apologist, but Israel had the greenlight from Bush (and even majority of the Arab world) to take Hizbollah and even Syria to the woodshed. Two days after the first sortie by the IAF, Tzippy Livni was calling John Bolton begging for a cease fire. Bolton has confirmed in several interviews since he Voinovich washed him out of office with his Gypsie tears.

This disaster falls squarely on the Square of Authority - Olmert-Peretz-Livni-Halutz. Livni will come out this first round ok and her defense that she was trying to save Israel from Olmert by seeking a ceasefire right away, will probably hold her from exile. Of course it was a leftist and defeatist Israeli media and Arik Sharon that made their ascension possible, as well as a delusional populace that snapped out of it for a spell last summer, but whose leaders could not. Israeli post-Zionism and abandonment of Jewish identity paved the way for this disaster which was borne long before Olmert told the world he was tired of winning.

It's a typical long m16. It has a vertical handle attached. They joined 2 magazines, the guy in the front has plastic magazines and the guy in the background has aluminium. All standard stuff in the IDF, so it's probably stolen. As to the scope I have no idea.

Not necessarily stolen. Both the US and Israel have been falling over themselves to arm Abbas' armies. Really, truly, the strangest strategy for defense in this whole theater of the absurd - arming those who want to kill you in the hopes that the kill someone else. While the US contribution has supposedly been limited to "non-lethal" appratus (of course freeing Nazi money to buy lethal weapons), but the Olmert government has actually sent rifles and bullets to the Arabs. Truly remarkable.

#63 J. Lichty

the Olmert government has actually sent rifles and bullets to the Arabs.

Apparently the word "treason" no longer has any meaning today. Otherwise there would be a lot of politicians in both Israel and the United States hanging from lampposts.

I was frustrated by Israel giving up but with mounting international condemnation it was a lose-lose situation and I can understand the decision to extricate and live to fight another day. I think a key aim in advance of any future confrontation must be to encourage outspokenness from the ordinary Lebanese suffering Syria's vile puppetry there and to develop a front from inside Lebanon, if Hizbollah is to be ousted. If Israel becomes drawn into a wider regional conflagration, it would be terrible simultaneously to be reliving last summer.

I guess this a typical islamic victory. Apparently I missed the part where the hezzies occupied a battleground in Israel proper and retained the battlespace forcing an Israeli withdrawal.Didn't happen? Oh, never mind.

#32 Facts of Life

Or to cut a long story short - they've become too much like us.

#64 rickl

Apparently the word "treason" no longer has any meaning today.

Please be serious. There is a world of difference between weakness, stupidity or incompetence and treason. The punishment for treason is jail or death. The punishment for failure is replacement.

The last thing Israel needs is a trial for treason.

The first thing Israel needs is to replace Olmert as PM and Peretz as Defense Minister.

Guys,

FORMER MK SUSPECTED OF SPYING
FOR HIZBULLAH

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Guess who? Bishara, of course. THAT'S treason. Giving sensitive battle information to the enemy.

#70 merav
Yes. That IS treason.