How sick.

Imagine how they will treat the British after they take over?

United Kalifate.

but she was married?
isn't the whole point that marriage honors "fooling around?"

or was she married to the wrong man?

I don't get it

That poor girl, and her poor baby. So sad.

[lgf watch moonbats] UH, this has nothing to do with Islam, its just a regular crime. If everytime a person kills someone and he is christian does that make it a christian crime?[/lgf watch moonbats]

Yeah right, moonbat, Christians do honor killings all the time. It's in the bible! Where you say? Oh i dunno, somewhere in the back.

Well, if they can convince the judge that the case should be held in a Sharia court they'll be ok.

And considering the state of Europe, that might actually work.

So much Evil in the wirld.

'A post-mortem examination found that Mrs Ali died as the result of stab wounds to her chest and abdomen.'

. The Primitives made certain that the unborn child also died.

Did I say wirld?...Let's try again:

So much Evil in the world.

The invisible women of Islam, exhibit 99,999:

Neighbours said they were shocked by the murder. "They are a quiet family, we rarely saw them," one resident said. "They are Muslim and sometimes they wear traditional dress, but other times they wear Westernised clothing.

"They recently had a large garage converted into a prayer room, and every couple of weeks quite a number of people came to pray. But I never saw a young girl at the house.
"A policeman told me he had interviewed 29 residents in the street and not one had seen a teenage girl or knew one that had recently got married."

The teenager is believed to have had an arranged marriage to her husband in December last year. Her in-laws are thought to run an electrical goods business in Manchester. Her family released this photograph yesterday through police.

I'm thinking we need a program that shuts down immigration of males under 40 from Muslim countries, and simultaneously encourages immigration and intermarriage of Muslim girls with Western men. You know, so they can be with guys who won't murder them for egotistical reasons. Because that would be an improvement, right? The whole "not killing your wife" thing.

PS- id like to add about LGF watch and other moonbat sites, i dont know how Charles puts up with it. All the "liberal logic ©" of those sites would drive me crazy, especially the stalker, personal aspect. If you wanna debate the points, fine, but ad hominum is cowardly.

Speaking of Honor Killings waiting to happen:

'We are Palestinian, we are women, we are gay'

I guess this is the Islamofacist answer to Roe v. Wade... just kill the mother and the unborn child.

OT - US troops indoctrinate Iraqi children into the wicked ways of Capitalism.

She probably looked at him funny or talked back. She had it coming.

/Sadly sarcastic

6 months married, 3 months pregnant and not one of 29 neighbors who were interviewed had even seen or noticed this young lady?

The picture supplied by her parents shows an attractive, lively, smiling young woman. Her new life at the wealthy inlaws must have been awful.

Kinda blows the whole "arranged marriages are better because your parents will choose what is best for you" argument out the window too.

Notice how they failed to mention that this was a double murder?

Battling against a deeply patriarchal society

That's one way of saying it.

After the Norman Conquest 1066, I believe there was no Anglo-Saxon leader of note left in Britain. They had all been slaughtered. English was dropped and for approximately 300 years, French was the language of the rulers and court, upper class, legal system.

Not that I say this to make any comparisons or speculations in regard to any modern situation.

feminist organizations are all over thi..oops, my bad

I'm having a hard time picking out the honor-killing aspect of the murder. Does it stem from the possibility that the baby is the progeny of an affair?

Unfortunately this sort of behavior cuts across religious and ethnic lines -- even in American, murder is a leading reason for the deaths of pregnant women.

Tel Aviv, a "sprawling metropolis."

This journalist definately speaks 10 to 15 languages.

I'm confused. She was married for six months. She was found to be pregnant.

This is reprehensible how?

Even if it was an honor killing, what was the rationale?

Was the husband afraid that the baby wasn't his?

N.O.W.s position: (chirping crickets)

Rest in Peace young lady :(

Mrs Ali, 17, who had been married for six months, had multiple knife wounds to her stomach, chest and arms when she was found dead in her home.

Ah, there's the clue right there.

I think he was trying to kill the baby. Suspected infidelity.

Sadly, these savages that we've invited into our midst will never understand 'honor'. They can label it 'honor killing' or 'honour killing' all they want. It's still a matter of "I'm killing you because my God is telling me to".

What a crock of $hit.

#23

Unfortunately this sort of behavior cuts across religious and ethnic lines -- even in American, murder is a leading reason for the deaths of pregnant women.

I assume you're shitting us, right?

#10 Ringo the Gringo
Did I say wirld?...Let's try again:

So much Evil in the world.
___________________________________________

No, I'd stick with wirld. It's a contraction of weird world. Pariticularly apropos where is-lame is concerned.

Now, in truth, in many machismo-based cultures, men who become jealous and angry end up killing their wives. HOWEVER, the key difference is that in Western machismo cultures, it is considered a sin, and illegal, and morally wrong, to kill your wife or family member, for whatever reason; in Islamic societies, it is not only tolerated and considered acceptable, it is actually required to kill a female family member who has "shamed" you.

That's the difference. Jealousy-based spouse-murders do happen in every society. Only in Islam are they encouraged.

I just love quaint ethnic restaurants and customs.

29 Cartman,

I assume you're shitting us, right?

Nope. It's horrible, but true.

Honor is one of the worst excuses for murder. And to be asked not to judge such things because it's a different culture is putting out a fire with gasoline. This butchery has to be quelled through some serious efforts on the part of the government and private organizations such as an amnesty system that’ll put these poor women into hiding from their murderous families so their children could at least have a chance at life.

I'd like to link to my comments about this from yesterday, but my search keeps turning up 0 finds.

Am I doing something wrong?

We shouldn't judge the culture of others. We need more tolerance and diversity. Please don't hate them. If it wasn't for the oppression of Western Culture, they wouldn't be blood thirsty savages. If only we had more tolerance.

I think he was trying to kill the baby. Suspected infidelity.

RAPE

23 Cognito

I'm having a hard time picking out the honor-killing aspect of the murder.

Sometimes I really wonder about you..

#33 cognito

Nope. It's horrible, but true.

I normally don't ask for proof/stats/links, but I'd sure love to see one supporting that assertion.

Hannity. Stealin Rudy's thunder. Gonna play HIS big shootout with Paul.

Any suggestions what to listen to in NYC at this hour?

31 zombie,

I agree -- there's a big difference between hating a bad act and encouraging it. I haven't quite seen evidence of the latter in this case, though; there's no evidence that this guy was anything other than another evil guy who killed his wife.

Like I said, murder -- even in America -- is actually the top cause of death in pregnant women. That cuts across pretty much every culture.

Human beings do not act like this.

#23 Cognito

murder is a leading reason for the deaths of pregnant women.

Excuse me, but can you back this statement up?
In the 25+ years I've been the medical field where I see people who have been murdered.. Pregant women are very few.

What kind of Orwellian world do we live in? Religion of peace? What a sad, sick story. Rest in peace.

From endabuse.org

Pregnant and recently pregnant women are more likely to be victims of homicide than to die of any other cause18

18 Horon, I., & Cheng, D., (2001). Enhanced Surveillance for Pregnancy-Associated Mortality - Maryland, 1993 - 1998. The Journal of the American Medical Association, 285, No. 11, March 21, 2001.

The page at endabuse didn't specify that the stats applied to only American pregnant women, but perhaps someone can access the Horon and Cheng that the stat comes from.

Does Iowahawk know about this?

Dan Rather makes his acting debut

NEW YORK - Dan Rather going Hollywood?

There were gasps of surprise at ABC's fall-schedule announcement this week when the veteran TV newsman popped up as an actor in clips for "Dirty Sexy Money," a new drama about a wealthy, misbehaving New York family.

The role wasn't exactly a stretch. Rather plays a reporter at a fancy dinner party pressing a politician, portrayed by William Baldwin, about his future political plans.

No Submission, and

Cartman,

I'm not saying anything outlandish here. I'm not saying the husband did anything other than a wicked act. I'm just not sure -- yet -- how it ties into his religion.

As for the statistics, they're widely available. Here's one example from WebMD.

Garage Mosque Cognito?

It's nice to know that we can count on representatives of the MSM to lay some moral equivalence on us.

I have come to understand that in domestic abuse cases, the violence does increase if the woman gets pregnant.

Cognito's inability or unwillingness to see the role that Islamic honor killing likely played in this tragedy is disturbing.

OT: A NEW "GOLDEN RULE" IN ISLAM?

EGYPT: MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD TOYING WITH FILM TITLE AS POLITICAL MOTTO

Cairo, 16 May (AKI) - "What I want is what you want" could be the new motto of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, when it stands its candidates in parliamentary elections for the Shura Council (Senate) on 11 and 18 June. The logo, taken from the title of a successful cinema comedy, could help the movement, whose leaders have been meeting for daysto thrash out strategy to overcome the restrictions of a new law on political rights.

The law, approved in recent weeks, forbids the use in electorao campaigns of slogans which make reference to religious symbols. A measure which critics say was was conceived to contrast "Islam is the solution" which the Brotherhood adopted in the November 2005 parliamentary elecitons where its candidates, running as independents, took a record 88 seats in the parliament.

"What I want is what you want" explained a Muslim Brotherhood representative Gamal Hamshar, to the local press, implies the word Islam without pronouncing it expliciitly.

"Obviously the fact that it is the Muslim Brotherhood which uses the slogan leaves no doubt on its interpretation" explained Hamshat.

The limits imposed by the regime of President Hosni Mubarak which is seeking to weaken the opposition, in particular the Muslim Brotherhood, has not discouraged the organisations which says it will stand 20 candidates.

#46 Kragar

When asked about it later, Dan asked, "You mean that wasn't real?".

Curridge!

U.N.: Ban Vows to Boost Cooperation with Islamic Conference

Praising the cooperative relationship between the United Nations and the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has anticipated strengthening these ties in the years ahead. In a message to the OIC Ministerial Conference meeting in Islamabad, Ban said Tuesday the gathering comes at a crucial juncture. "Instability in Islamic States - from Afghanistan and Iraq to Sudan and Somalia - carries profound implications for international peace and security,"he said.

“The OIC, as a leading multilateral institution, is well placed to play a leading role in addressing all these challenges,” said Ban. “I would especially like to commend the excellent cooperation between the Untied Nations and the OIC.”

Wow.

Slow down, guys. I'm not offering anything like moral equivalence. I'm not saying he didn't murder her. I'm not saying it's anything other than horrific.

I'm only asking what aspect of it makes it an honor killing, as opposed to direct murder.

It's a simple question, not some sort of wacky position. If someone can explain it to me, I'm wide open to calling it an honor killing.

OT - but all heck is breaking loose in Gaza. Canadian news isn't mentioning it. CNN has had stories on television but the story is buried in their website.

Story Highlights•
NEW: Hamas gunmen mistakenly kill their own fighters in jeep attack
• Officials say 4 dead, 14 wounded in Israeli strike on southern Gaza
• Fatah says security chief's home burned and six guards slain
• Nurse inside ambulance caught in crossfire, shot dead
GAZA CITY (AP) -- An Israeli helicopter launched missiles at a Hamas command center in the southern Gaza Strip on Wednesday, killing at least four people, after Hamas fired rocket barrages into Israel in an apparent attempt to draw Israel into increasingly violent Palestinian infighting.

Hamas gunmen fatally shot six bodyguards from the rival Fatah movement and mistakenly ambushed a jeep carrying their own fighters, killing five.

The Palestinians doing what they do best.

i am not really surpized that murder is a leading cause of death for pregnant women, have seen this before.

the stress, the ages involved and the advance of medicine where most other causes are reduced, leads to a shift.

but the actions of a person and the way society reacts to the event are not the same.

#47 Cognito

As for the statistics, they're widely available. Here's one example from WebMD.

Sorry buddy, but that isn't good stats. Maybe FBI, but to many places pop there own numbers to sound good.

#47 cognito

Well, I'm not sure I'll take WebMD's writings as gospel, but it would appear to me that your assertion was correct. That's a sad commentary on our society, if indeed true.

#31 Zombie

Well stated and to the point.

This is a disgusting deed. Period.

54
start here:
[Link: www.google.com...]

Oh please, not this hooplewankified babble-onian again....

Cognito... your shtick is so played.

You need a new MO

#49 Ward Cleaver
Just when I thought it would be interesting to get back on LGF after this mornings troll infestation, more crap pops up.

It may not be that being pregnant is such a time of danger from one's spouse/boyfriend/etc., but that during the time women are usually pregnant (yes, a large range), they are young and healthy and less likely to die from illness.

Something has to be the leading cause of death, for every group. One imagines, though, that trama (car wrecks, etc.) would be the leading cause at that age. Guess not.

From NOW (yes, I went there. Sue me)

Nationally, homicide is a leading killer of young women—pregnant or not. In 1999, homicide was the second-leading cause of death among women ages 20 to 24. It was fifth among women ages 25-34. Accidents are the top cause of death in both age groups.

Maybe, maybe not... [Link: www.iwf.org...]

The data for the JAMA study deserves additional scrutiny. First, the authors defined a "pregnant woman" not as a woman carrying a fetus at the time of her death, but as all women pregnant or who had been pregnant within a year before their deaths. The expansive definition of "pregnancy-associated" deaths conveys a false sense that all of these deaths were directly related to the women having been pregnant. Almost three quarters of the deaths examined in the study occurred during the yearlong period after the woman was no longer pregnant. A year after a woman stops being pregnant (whether by giving birth, abortion, or miscarriage) seems a long time to assume that her death is related to pregnancy.

In addition, homicide wouldn't be the leading cause of death if the categories were defined differently. If different (but related) health disorders were combined, they would by far be the leading cause.

Dr. Harold Weiss, of the Center for Injury Research and Control, identified another way in which the study may be misleading. In a letter to JAMA following the publication of Horon and Cheng's study, Weiss highlighted how Maryland's policy regarding autopsies may contribute to an under-counting of death due to motor-vehicle accidents. The Maryland medical examiner's office requires an autopsy for all murder victims, but does not for all auto accidents. This means that while medical-examiner reports identified all murdered pregnant women -- and, in fact, these reports were the source of 100 percent of Horon and Cheng's identification of pregnant homicide victims -- the lack of data on women who die in motor-vehicle accidents means that Horon and Cheng likely missed some pregnant women who died in auto accidents.

It's a lot cheaper than divorce, and easier on the machismo than to have wifey walk out on you. Just claim "honor", then get rid of your little "problem" and nobody in your backward sub-society will think twice about it.

58 Dustoff,

WebMD is actually a peer-reviewed site. But you don't have to take their word for it. The information is available from other well-respected medical journals.

If those aren't good enough for you, I have to wonder what you're looking for.

Cognito are you really
Inayat Bunglawala, Bay-BAY?

OT

Manly storms approach PHL, NYC, BOS (although the ones approaching BOS about to hit the dreaded 15º marine layer)

I have to wonder what it is exactly that you are looking for, cognito.

Way to dilute a global problem.

Thanks alot.

#32 Maine's Michael

How you can manage to make me laugh on such a despicable thread and topic likely indicates that you are sick-or I am...

62 Babba,

Oh please, not this hooplewankified babble-onian again....

Cognito... your shtick is so played.

You need a new MO

If direct questions and reference of facts is what for counts as "shtick" these days, then that's fine by me.

I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, here, Babba. Just trying to get a grasp of what constitutes an honor killing, and whether this fits that definition. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

All this poor girl had to do to "deserve" an "honor" killing was to disobey her husband.

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property for the support of women. So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great."

Surah 4:34

#65 TimeQuake

The data for the JAMA study deserves additional scrutiny.

Thanks, but please understand if I don't jump on their band wagon. JAMA has been smacked down for playing with numbers more than once.

Why many of these groups are run by libs just cracks me up? Truth is one thing that seems so damn hard to do. )-:

70 NoSubmission,

What did I dilute? And how?

Cognito, the police detectives suspect it was an "honour" killing-but you are still suspicious that is was just a regular plain old murder of a pregnant woman. You got better instincts than the investigators?

This reminds me of how you had a sense that the kidnapped BBC reporter had repented and seen the error of his ways as a 'formerly terrorist-loving reporter.

You got special sensors or something?

Remember, all cultures and prctices are equal.

(except, of course, modern-western, which is oppressive, colonial, judgemental and evil)

74 Dust-Off-507

That report disputes the WebMD report. Just saying.

By casting doubt on the motivations of a world recognized problem of violence against women.

72 Cognito

Just trying to get a grasp of what constitutes an honor killing, and whether this fits that definition.

If a muslim man feels his honor has been slighted, in any way, and he kills the offending woman, that is an honor killing. Any other questions?

#54 Cognito:

Wow.

Slow down, guys. I'm not offering anything like moral equivalence. I'm not saying he didn't murder her. I'm not saying it's anything other than horrific.

I'm only asking what aspect of it makes it an honor killing, as opposed to direct murder.

It's a simple question, not some sort of wacky position. If someone can explain it to me, I'm wide open to calling it an honor killing.

At this point, I'm not ready to label it an honor killing, though there is an aspect to this that makes me lean toward that conclusion:

The 24-year-old husband of Sana Ali, 17, was arrested by murder squad detectives along with 16-year-old youth.

Generally speaking, your average domestic disputes and "crimes of passion" generally involve only the killer and the victim. The fact that a 16-year-old "youth" was also arrested indicates to me that this is likely not your average domestic dispute homicide.

Just my two cents.

#67 Cognito

If those aren't good enough for you, I have to wonder what you're looking for.

The TRUTH... Because of my field and the fact I spend so much time in ER's.

I've just seen to many numbers from so called groups AMA, JAMA and others that make no sense.

And yes I read their stuff all the time. It's part of my job.

76 WriterMom,

Cognito, the police detectives suspect it was an "honour" killing-but you are still suspicious that is was just a regular plain old murder of a pregnant woman. You got better instincts than the investigators?

No offense, but read the story more closely. The writer said investigators won't "rule out" honor killing. That means something else entirely. It means they were likely asked about the possibility, and left it open, which any decent investigator would do.

If you show me something to back up the notion that "police detectives suspect it was an 'honour' killing" then I'll go right along with it.

#72 Cognito

what constitutes an honor killing

A Muslim woman does something, or has something done to her that injures her "honour" and thereby the "honour" of her entire family/tribe/village. Family members must restore the family "honour" and kill the woman. There is no other way to rid the family of the "shame".

Have you not read The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones?

I might be going out on a limb here, but I think the moonbat response to this double homicide will be somethng like this:

"This is the fault of American foreign policy, Jewish Occupation and ... Bush."

#62 BabbaZee
I suspect based on timing and availability of source link someone came prepared for this topic, don't you? Now the question is, why would he think this topic would come up again. A recurring theme? I wonder where he was when this video with honor killing theme was discussed? According to sources 1,000 people participated in stoning this girl to death. We do that here in the U.S. all the time, right?

What about the horrific mob stoning of the 17 yr old Kurdish girl on video just last week?

Did you have doubts about that too?

#78 TQ

Thanks....

Cognito

Deepak Chopra called.
He wants his bullshit back.

I've been through that with you thoroughly and you know it damn well and so do all the regulars here.

Now, you are merely sport for my spleenful mocking.

But.. alas, very angry black clouds approacheth so I am shutting down out of GP, mores the pity I was enjoying myself.

Later lizards, and impostors

81 rabidsquirrel,

Good point. That's just the sort of thing I was looking for.

"Lesser breeds without the Law"

—R. Kipling

smug.

#86 EC Marm

Yes of course we do
I was planning on getting stoned myself, expeditiously.

Oh.... not that kind of stoned?

Never mind.

No...we don't do that in America.

:~}

LATER !

#87 NoSubmission
Beat ya by 8 seconds!

Aside from this terribly brutal murder of mother and baby, the thing that stands out for me is that none of the neighbors had ever seen her. No one knew she existed.

How do you live in a home for that long and not be seen? One word:

abuse

I know the answer to this one.

Writermom,

Yes, I understand that aspect of honor killing. And so the second part: How does it apply to this case?

I'm not saying it doesn't, I just don't see it here yet. So far there is a killing; it lacks the element of slighted honor.

So far, that is.

87 NooSubmission

That too.

Lesser breeds without the Law

Judeo - Christainity is superior.

I gotta duck out and shut electric off. Ed is dropping a big nasty one on me.

94 EC Marm
That video hasn't left me. Never will.

an immigration proposal that could be announced later today or tomorrow. The deal would give illegal aliens living in the United States amnesty, according to confidential sources. It would also allow illegal aliens to bring their parents, spouses and children into the United States.

If true, confidential sources?
Any terrorists living in sickle cells need to apply for amnesty.

When you become citizens,
If you blow anything up,
We will try to figure out why you were abused as a child.
And why you have become so disenfranchised..

Cognito

Do you remember when they said that more women were beat up during the SUPER BOWL? You know how many medical papers carried then it, then turned out that is was all a damn big lie.

That's why I do jump for the numbers so fast.

I'm only asking what aspect of it makes it an honor killing, as opposed to direct murder.

There could be a host of possible reasons. The investigators believe it could be honor killing. The article says the woman was stabbed in the stomach several times. This could only mean the guy wanted both her and the baby dead, but why the baby, too? Infidelity is a possible reason. Kill the adulterous wife to reclaim his honor? Or maybe the young girl was too westernized and "lack" modesty? Maybe she expressed her disapproval of Islamic culture and/or ideologies (apostacy). All possible reasons for "honor" killing.

it lacks the element of slighted honor.

And HOW is that, oh carnac the blindfolded?

5: No murder

#98 EC Marm,

Take care and stay safe.

What I simply can't fathom is the mentality that considers it more dishonorable to have sex than commit a murder.

-jcr

EC Marm,

I suspect based on timing and availability of source link someone came prepared for this topic, don't you? Now the question is, why would he think this topic would come up again. A recurring theme? I wonder where he was when this video with honor killing theme was discussed? According to sources 1,000 people participated in stoning this girl to death. We do that here in the U.S. all the time, right?

Unbelievable. So I was asked to back up my assertion. I did. If I hadn't, I'd have been damned for making it up. And once I did, I'm damned for -- magically -- coming "prepared for this topic."

So much for facts and decent discussion, I guess.

honor? not honor?

It is a quibble.

#101
Dang.... I don't jump

96 Cognito

Yes, I understand that aspect of honor killing. And so the second part: How does it apply to this case?

Maybe you should ask the journalist who wrote this, since she's the one who used the term.

Cognito-the police are not going to give away what they think is a motive now. They have not ruled out an "honour" killing.

Maybe the guy's pregnant teenage wife just didn't make the beds that day. Forget about honour killings-that never happens in the "Asian" community in the UK. Or in any other Muslim culture for that matter.

So much for facts and decent discussion, I guess.

..... and here comes the victim card .......

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.No murder
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

The mentality of honor killings is the same thing that drives so much of the violence in the Middle East. Honor, shame, and exploiting weakness. If you confuse restraint with weakness, bad things are also going to happen.

Case in fact: Gaza, rockets, and Hamas.

Hamas has been quite busy today - when they're not causing red on red, they've been firing away at Israel. Israel for its part has fired back in a limited fashion and the Olmert government is reverting to type. They're saying that they'll take harsh measures, but when you read further, it's a whole lot less than what is needed to put a hurting on Hamas, Fatah and all the rest of the terrorists in Gaza.

Reprisals.

Honor Killing = Oxymoron

There's nothing honorable about killing a 17 year old and her unborn child. These people are savages and their religion nothing more than a murderous death cult founded by a sadistic child molesting pedophile.

#82 Dustoff

I've just seen to many numbers from so called groups AMA, JAMA and others that make no sense.

You make a great point. It is no secret that both groups you mentioned seem to have become mouthpieces for the politically correct, just as the AARP has. I don't much trust the information coming out of what were once considered ultimately credible sources.

Let's see - somebody drags out what many non-professionals would assume to be a valid fact, and that makes the person a troll ?

103 No Submission,

And HOW is that, oh carnac the blindfolded?

Guess you're feeling clever today. So I'll repeat:

I'm not saying it doesn't, I just don't see it here yet. So far there is a killing; it lacks the element of slighted honor.

So far, that is.

Seems pretty clear to me. In my first post on this thread I asked,

Does it stem from the possibility that the baby is the progeny of an affair?

Obviously I'm open to the possibility it was an honor killing. But I'm unwilling to jump to that conclusion because it's handy.

For Protestants it's No. 6, cognito.

quit the quibbling.

This just in

WOLFOWITZ RESIGNING

AND Damn that's some serious lightning!

Gotta shut'er down

later

#118 Mike C

somebody drags out what many non-professionals would assume to be a valid fact, and that makes the person a troll ?

No, that would not make one a troll. But a months-long pattern of dismissing, obfuscating, rationalizing, playing victim and jerking people's chains might.

120 Ojoe,

I'm not quibbling. I'm doing the opposite: I'm saying it's a horrible, sick act, regardless of the person's religion.

Oh, and RE the PC correctness of JAMA, dig up the statistical study they published RE the Brady Bill. That was back in Jan-April (somewhere in there) 2000. The conclusions might make you think.

119 Cognito

it lacks the element of slighted honor.

I think you have some issues. You need to be specific.

Take a look at the video that ec posted. Is the 'slighted honor' invisible there too?

123 Cognito

Then you've said it.

122 mama winger,

No, that would not make one a troll. But a months-long pattern of dismissing, obfuscating, rationalizing, playing victim and jerking people's chains might.

It's easy to speak in generalities. But I don't think I've been a troll -- as I understand the term -- in the slightest. I don't make inflammatory statements. I don't intentionally insult people. I do ask questions, and I do apply skepticism to each side.

Update

A third person has been arrested over the fatal stabbing of a pregnant teenager in Greater Manchester.

According to reports, a 22-year-old woman from Birmingham has been arrested in connection with the death of Sana Ali, 17.

A 24-year-old man, believed to be Mrs Ali's husband, and a 16-year-old boy have been arrested on suspicion of murder.

#128 Congito

Fine. Whatever.

Sana, 17, moved to England from Pakistan five years ago.

She lived with her family in Cheadle Heath, Stockport, before marrying last December.

The couple had been betrothed to each other around nine years earlier.

Does Hallmark even make an engagement card suitable for an 7-8 yr old?

#124 Mike C

Thanks for the help and yes your right...

I remember that pact of lies!

126 NoSubmission,

I think you have some issues. You need to be specific.

Well I suppose I must indeed have issues. Because it seems to me I've been specific from the beginning; I asked what, specifically, makes this killing an honor killing.

(Which it may very well be, of course.)

#118 MikeC

What do you mean by 'non-professionals'.

#112 mama winger 5/16/2007 12:38:48 pm PDT

So much for facts and decent discussion, I guess.

..... and here comes the victim card .......

These poor men are the victims of hundreds of years of non-circumcised penises and mothers that taught them body parts are sinful..

We need to care for the terrorists among us..

mama winger
I get the feeling cognito has never experienced tragedy. Its always some kind of wishy washy moral equivocation with him.

#121 BabbaZee

So the corrupt Europeans "got" Wolfowitz? There was an excellent piece in yesterday's WSJ about how this is all a set-up to oust Wolfowitz.

The only potential bright spot?

And oh, yes: President Bush could also help by declaring that, if the Europeans do oust Mr. Wolfowitz, his likely choice as a successor would be Paul Volcker, the former Fed Chairman who has made a recent career of fighting corruption. There is certainly a lot of that to clean up at the World Bank.

According to United Nation reports, every year, 5000 women are murdered under the pretext of Honour Killings worldwide. This is just the tip of the iceberg; the reality is far higher. It shows only official reports and doesn't mention unreported murders in rural areas, missing women, those who their birth never been registered, neither their death. It doesn’t include thousands of women and young girls who burned themselves to death and committed suicide because of family pressures, religious or cultural issues, forced marriages, domestic violence, etc.

Babba...

Batten down the hatches... Big cell approaching CT...

My call:

Victim of RAPE.

Maybe someone he knew.

It was a ploy by Soros to wipe Wolfowitz off the World Bank...

Soros is now going to attempt to do to the dollar what he did to the British Pound...

136 No Submission,

I get the feeling cognito has never experienced tragedy. Its always some kind of wishy washy moral equivocation with him.

If you're going to issue such nonsense, I'll ask you to at least support it. Where have I offered moral equivocation?

Or have I actually called it "horrible," "bad," "evil," and "wicked"?

Scare quotes aside, the headline of the article implies that the husband and accomplice were arrested for an 'Honour killing'. It then goes on to say:

Detectives earlier said they had not ruled out the possibility that the murdered teenager had been the victim of an 'honour killing'.

I'd go so far as to opine that this murder was probably an honour killing, but the article gives no definitive proof of that and until such time as the actual motive is reported by official channels, then objectivity demands that other possible explanations remain.

One trivial point, pedantic I know, but Bury is not in Manchester. It's administered in the Greater Manchester area, but it isn't Manchester.

I recall that about 15 years ago, there was a case where a Pakistani father was found on the London subway with his daughter's head in a bag- he had objected to the boy she was dating, I believe.

Anyone out there remember this?

Does Hallmark even make an engagement card suitable for an 7-8 yr old?

You See!

We even make fun of them for dating at an early age..

The freaking humanity of it all.

Cognito, the clues are right in the story Charles linked to. Read between the lines..

"A policeman told me he had interviewed 29 residents in the street and not one had seen a teenage girl or knew one that had recently got married."

Another neighbour, who lives opposite the Ali family home, added: "We heard a woman screaming 'she's dead' and we rushed outside. An ambulance arrived and one of them was shouting 'keep her alive'.

"We saw members of the family being taken away in police cars and we saw something we believed was a large knife being removed from the house."

How come the neighbors didn't hear a thing until after the stabbing was over? I could see one person going crazy and committing murder, but not a group of people. And if there wasn't a conspiracy involving all the people in the house, then why wasn't there fighting or arguing amongst the various people in the house after she was "found"? Shouldn't the rest of them been horrified by the stabbing? It sounds like the other woman was, why not the men? I can't buy the theory that this was simply murder and not an honor killing because the details point to a conspiracy.

A group of Muslim men conspire to murder a woman that they keep locked up in the house, and you wonder why people suspect an honor killing. Thats just stupid.

143 Wishbone,

Well put.

Let's tone down the contentousness on this topic... Cognito wants further proof this is honor killing and there are others who disagree... Fine, that's fine... Healthy debate...

#140 Ben Hur

No, victim of a rumour. Or an insult. Or maybe she looked at some other male. Or maybe some other male looked at her. Or maybe she just did something her husband didn't like...

Ooh that lovely Islam. A wholly tolerant religion that respects womens rights, has no desire to extinguish our civilization, doesn't resort to honour killings unlike those evil Joos and Christians, wouldn't dream of crashing planes into buildings, thrashing people 130 times for drinking a glass of beer or hang innocent girls for being raped. Wonderful wonderful Islam.

/Cognito

Cognito 5/16/2007 12:43:58 pm PDT

120 Ojoe,

I'm not quibbling. I'm doing the opposite: I'm saying it's a horrible, sick act, regardless of the person's religion.

Would you not agree that someone running a garage mosque is committing an act like this is most likely done in the name of said religion?

150 Spirit,

I suppose that when someone's actual words are disappointingly decent, it's easier to make something up.

Cognito, I recognize where you are trying benefit of the doubt.

I think given her age, her surroundings, she is married at this age, (most westerners get pregnant at this age, but do not marry), and the fact that she was unknown, or possibly the rest of the community is being tight lipped,

for the people here, and the focus of the blog, the nuance for thinking this might be similar to a Lacy Peterson case seems a difficult stretch.

#146 mich-again

You missed the biggest clues that this was an "honour murder":

"They are Muslim..."

"They recently had a large garage converted into a prayer room, and every couple of weeks quite a number of people came to pray. But I never saw a young girl at the house."

# 132 Dustoff-507

What do remember as being wrong with the study ?

Mo was allowed to marry a 6 year old at 54.

He had sex because at 57....

I cant think of anything funny to say.

He was a
sick son of a bitch.

151 akak,

Would you not agree that someone running a garage mosque is committing an act like this is most likely done in the name of said religion?

Like I said, I'm wide open to the possibility that this was an honor killing. I'm not resistant to it in the least. But I do think it's best to search for facts and confirmation first.

Cognito-you are asking us to provide the motive, which would indicate conclusively whether or not this was an "honour" killing. We have no such proof. The circumstances, and past episodes make it possible that it was. When the police investigate, they will hopefully come up with the motive for the murder-and then determine whether "honour" and "shame" were part of the equation.

#141 tfc

Soros is now going to attempt to do to the dollar what he did to the British Pound...

Well said. We can bank on it. Pardon the pun. This man must be stopped.

# 134 WriterMom

Somebody who doesn't work in a field where such statistics and their reliability (or otherwise) would be common knowledge. I'm a professional in my field, and have at least semi-pro knowledge of some related disciplines, but outside of that I would be an amateur at the very best.

#144 funky phantom

I just finished reading a 2004 BBC article that the police were going to reopen 1000 murder cases that they believe COULD be "honour killings" that were not investigated as such.

153 formercorpsman,

Cognito, I recognize where you are trying benefit of the doubt.

I can accept that, except to note that I'm not actually extending any benefit to the guy -- stabbing your wife is equally despicable whether done for reasons of shame or not.

#155 Mike C

What do remember as being wrong with the study ?

The numbers were either just a plain lie or inflated to fit their needs.

Like saying 300 people (kids 15 to 25) die each year from guns in LA. What they didn't say, most were GANG BANGERS... not just someone walking down the street.

Fools & Liars! That's why when Cognito pops these numbers I like a tad bit more info and where is it coming from.

Why do all discussions with Cognito seem to always end up going 'round and 'round in circles? Sort of like the "login dog" chasing it's tail, before Charles fixed it.

I understand.

My implication was you granting benefit to the label.

Cognito 5/16/2007 1:00:26 pm PDT

151 akak,

Would you not agree that someone running a garage mosque is committing an act like this is most likely done in the name of said religion?

Like I said, I'm wide open to the possibility that this was an honor killing. I'm not resistant to it in the least. But I do think it's best to search for facts and confirmation first.

He & she had no choice in their affairs Cogs...it says so in the Quran?

Where's Storage?

#160 MikeC

I guess I'm not following. What profession do people need to belong to in order to be commenting on a possible honour killing? Or-I'm not following why you are mentioning statistic experts.

158 Writermom,

Hey, that's cool, that's all I was looking for.

If there's no proof just yet that it's an honor killing, but given the aggregate of the circumstances, it very well could be -- that's a fine conclusion, I think.

146 mich-again

A group of Muslim men conspire to murder a woman that they keep locked up in the house, and you wonder why people suspect an honor killing. Thats just stupid.

I'll go one step further- any time a muslim man kills his wife, sister, or other relative(s) I'm going to assume it's an honor killing. If statistics were actually kept on honor killings, I'm sure the numbers would back up my assumption, but they don't keep statistics on this because the international community would be horrified.

Again Cognito- you want to know why the term "honor killing" was invoked here? Because the police didn't rule it out, and the report had the gall to label it as such.

They kept the girl prisoner, for gosh sakes.

What the hell do you think was going on in there? Have any of you ever been held prisoner in your own home? I bet I am the only one that can answer yes to that question.

This was a family of sickos, doing sick things in the name of a sick religion.

sick sick sick

err- should be "reporter".

164 Cartman

Because cognito is an ATTENTION WHORE. hehe. That is what they do best.

On topic, I'm saddened for this gal. It's also sad to hear that the UK actually has a whole division taht investigates honor killings. If we allow these cultish creeps into the USA and don't stop their immigration in...this will be in our newspapers daily...within a generation or two..mark my words.

Regarding Soros...

He is one of the mostr evil people out there... He's like the villain on 24 who is behind everything but never leaves enough evidence to get him for crimes.

Definition from Islamic Dictionary, 1st edition, 752 AD. (There is no 2nd edition because 1st edition is only True edition, Alah Ackbar)

"Honor Killing" - termed used by Sharia lawyers in order to gain acquittal for male Muslims who kill women and girls. Also see, Mullah Murder, Holy Homicide, Allah Axe Murder and Sacred Stoning.

Mike C.

I have been in orthopaedics for over 15 years.

Numbers/statistics, even in medicine, which should seem apolitical to most, are often skewed.

FDA approvals, government funding, grants.

I think what Dust-off is alluding to, if I may, is you have to be suspect of who is reporting the figure, and why.

I know you know this.

#169 Sharmuta

Because the police didn't rule it out

They didn't rule out O.J Simpson either.

;-)

Cartman 5/16/2007 1:01:43 pm PDT

#141 tfc

Soros is now going to attempt to do to the dollar what he did to the British Pound...

cool.....more fodder jail time

dude is being shaken & stirred as we speak!

Cogs

Please give significance of name >Sana Ali? aside from news worthy BS

169 Sharmuta,

I'll go one step further- any time a muslim man kills his wife, sister, or other relative(s) I'm going to assume it's an honor killing.

That's exactly the thing to avoid, because it's just not true. It places Muslims in a sort of mythical place, where they can do no wrong simply for the sake of the act itself.

Here's what I mean:

Can a Muslim steal, simply because he is greedy?

Can he lie, simply because he is dishonest?

And can he kill, simply because he is murderous?

Of course he can do all three things -- not in fidelity to some higher religious conviction, but just because he is capable of doing wrong and wicked things.

Cogito,

Imagine you are standing in a pyrrana infested river. You feel something biting your legs. Now, I will agree, there is a chance it's something other than a pyranna biting your legs, maybe a small crocodile, or a leach... it's hard to tell... do you follow what I'm saying? I think we all agree there is a very small statistical chance this wasn't an honour killing, but you are being wilfully obtuse in not drawing the most likely conclusion.

So let's go over what we do know:

1. The victim was a young pregnant woman.
2. The victim's husband has been arrested.
3. 2 other family members have been arrested.
4. The killing involved multiple stab wounds.
5. All the people involved in the crime are Muslim.
6. Most honour killings are committed by Muslims.

All of the facts are consistant with an honour killing scenario. None of the facts are inconsistant with that scenario.

Now do you get it?

I'm sorry, but my SPidey sense still says rape.

By someone in the house.

#153 formercorpsman

(most westerners get pregnant at this age, but do not marry)

Approximately 4 in 10 young women in the U.S. become pregnant at least once before turning 20 years old.

While 4 in 10 is high, it hardly qualifies as "most"

Here's another quote from the same site that proves you wrong again.

Nationally, more than half of teenagers are virgins until they are at least 17 years of age.

179 cognito

Can a Muslim steal, simply because he is greedy?
Can he lie, simply because he is dishonest?
And can he kill, simply because he is murderous?

Yes, yes and yes. Of course.

But to argue that this case isn't honor killing when the police suspect it and 3 others in her family have been arrested in the savage hacking to death of a young pregnant woman -- an established pattern in the Islamic world-- simply isn't being honest or digging quite deep enough.

53 fjordman Please, please get those clowns the hell out of my country. They can build their new headquarters in Dubai, or Malaysia. You know, because those are such moderate muslim countries.

# 163 Dustoff-507

That's what I thought. Never even heard of the paper before, did you ?

For your information, the paper concluded that the Brady Bill had no statistical effect on crime rates whatsoever. The study was made very believable by the fact that the Brady Bill resulted in no changes to the law in a goodly number of states, as they already had state laws as restrictive or more so. This split the states into two groups, whose crime rates were then followed. The only slight statistical improvement in states affected by the Brady Bill was a small decrease in gun suicides by senior citizens.

Sorry for embarrasing you.

I have to be honest, and this is coming from somone living in the Islamic world for most of the past 12 years, and, as some of you know, lives in fear right this minute of my own girlfriend being a victim of an honor killing, but I'm with cognito on this one, at least insofar as I'm wondering what's with all the hostility. The story, as it appears, gives no sign as to why investigators are not ruling out an honor killing--they just make that statment. Cognito simply asks what in the story leads them to consider the possibility, and the level of sarcasm and contempt put on that legitimate question surprises me.

181 Ben Hur. You notice it said she lived with her wealthy inlaws, the husband, and the husband's brother. You could well be right. I'm still stunned that none of the 29 neighbors even knew there was a young newlywed woman/teenaged girl in the house.

Happy newlywed young women are usually easy to spot. And this young woman was very pretty, had lovely eyes and smile....yet nobody knew she lived there.

Yeah, behold the wonders of Islam for women.

#175 fromercorpsman

Numbers/statistics, even in medicine

,

How you doing buddy... Yes I so agree, to many of these papers have gone so far overboard with the numbers.

186 mikeistanbul It's the cognito history.

# 167 WriterMom

I was referring to the mention of homicide as a main killer of pregnant women. If I read that in something I presumed to be a reliable data base, I would probably buy it. But there would be law enforcement people, coroners and a host of other professionals that would know such things who might point out to me that my source was in error or disputed.

We'll find out soon enough.

179 Cognito

It places Muslims in a sort of mythical place, where they can do no wrong simply for the sake of the act itself.

WTF are you talking about?!

And can he kill, simply because he is murderous?

Sure- but it also doesn't help turning a blind eye to the religious as well as culturally sanctioned practice of honor killings. Most men in islamic countries aren't ever punished for it, Cognito. What does that do to a culture, what does that teach?

#179 cognito

And can he kill, simply because he is murderous?

This would be an interesting statistic to look up...

How many time has it happened that a Muslim husband murdered his wife and it turned out NOT to be an "honour killing"?

My guess is the number, while not zero, is certainly very, very small.

Mrs Ali and her unborn child both died following the attack at her home in Bury, Greater Manchester, on Friday

i understand she was 3 months pregnant. In America this is called an abortion of a fetus and the family of the woman would probably be suing somebody for Medical malpractice, after retaining John Edwards, in the death of the woman while the grieving husband would be embraced and given victim status.

#186 mikeinistanbul

the level of sarcasm and contempt put on that legitimate question surprises me.

I can't speak for everybody, but I suspect the challenging tone is probably more directed at Congito than at the actual question itself. There is such a long pattern here of Congito challenging the premise of Charles's posts, or monopolizing a thread that frankly there is not a lot of goodwill. Many of Congito's posts are scrutinized more harshly then posts of others for whom there is a more trusting relationship.

Like I said, that's just my perspective. Others may disagree.

Calling a homicide an “Honor Killing” is like calling a Mob hit an “Italian Dispute.”

The police and prosecutor's office should treat this crime for what it is: a double homicide with the guilty party paying the full penalty of the laws that were passed by the elected legislation.

#185 Mike C

Sorry for embarrasing you

? I think you and I are talking about two different things Mike.
I was talking about a paper that proved that Bradies numbers on gun deaths were inflated or just out right wrong.

'The 24-year-old husband of Sana Ali, 17, was arrested by murder squad detectives along with [a]16-year-old youth.'

'Police confirmed that several members of her family were being questioned over her death.'

'It is understood that Mrs Ali, who was two months pregnant, lived at the house with her 24-year-old husband, his younger brother and his parents.'

'At the time of the attack, her parents-in-law were abroad.'

. Perhaps the parents-in-law were conveniently back home, reassuring the clan that family honor would be upheld, when the brother and sister Primitives took a 'large knife' and sacrificed Sana and her unborn child.

Lizzie Borden took an ax

(it is all murder folks.)

With respect, many of you simply don't really know what an honor killing is in the Islamic world, where many men are simply abusive husbands, and kill their partners for that reason. So if you say something like, "She didn't obey, so he killed her. That's the honor killing," you are simply wrong about that. Honor killings are actually something quantified both in religious and, in many cases, civil law. It's a term with a real meaning--it doesn't simply mean any Moslem man killing any Moslem woman. I am with cognito on this--I'm afraid I haven't been around long enough to judge his statements by his "history," I can only take them at face value--I myself, with my familiarity with the concept, don't see from the story why the investigators are considering the possibility.

Hey mama winger...you saw it too. It's just disgusting, and Islam provides the scriptural framework to allow young women to be imprisoned like that. It's sickening and enraging that NOW et al don't lead the fight to at least educate western women about this threat.

#23 cognito

Unfortunately this sort of behavior cuts across religious and ethnic lines -- even in American, murder is a leading reason for the deaths of pregnant women.

Sorry everyone this what Mike C and others were talking about with Cognito. I believe his statement is in error with the amount of deaths in the US>

#195 MammaWinger

BINGO. You are exactly on the money. We should waste less time with Cognito's utterly useless musings on IF this MIGHT be NOT an 'honour killing', and go back on topic.

He does have a pattern of thread hogging and being contrary on the strangest topics.

Somewhat on topic, a rather good read from EUreferendum on a speech made by Nyanko Sabuni, Swedish Minister for Integration and Gender Equality, on the fight against honour killings in Sweden. Of course, she's pissed off all the usual suspects.

Telling it like it is

193 Kenneth

How many time has it happened that a Muslim husband murdered his wife and it turned out NOT to be an "honour killing"?

My guess is the number, while not zero, is certainly very, very small.

That's just it, Kenneth- we have no way of knowing since no statistics are kept!

200 mikeinistanbul Sorry Mike, but you won't find me respecting the muslim culturan mores as they relate to abuse of women.

#196 Hot Rod Kid

Calling a homicide an “Honor Killing” is like calling a Mob hit an “Italian Dispute.”

That's a good point. However, it is useful to know if the mafia was involved in a murder or not, as such knowledge can be used to direct resources and to guide investigations.

If we deny the prevailance of so-called honour killing, we will continue to see the horrible crimes committed in our country. The first step to preventing honour killing is to admit it happens and to understand why.

#182 Tricky Dick 5/16/2007 1:16:27 pm PDT

#153 formercorpsman

(most westerners get pregnant at this age, but do not marry)

Approximately 4 in 10 young women in the U.S. become pregnant at least once before turning 20 years old.

While 4 in 10 is high, it hardly qualifies as "most"

Here's another quote from the same site that proves you wrong again.

Nationally, more than half of teenagers are virgins until they are at least 17 years of age

.

I think we are getting are lines crossed.

My intent was to imply, most westerners "who" get pregnant at this age.

I was not implying this demographic as a whole.

I will try to be a little more clear next time.

And why the distinction matters is that honor killings are usually considered to be mitigated homicides, and the penalties are reduced, often dramatically. So it is not uncommon for an abusive husband to murder his wife and claim some sort of "honor" mitigation. Turkey has only recently altered its laws in this regard.

200 mikeinistanbul
With respect, I think most of us do understand the nuances of honor killing as you outlined.

What part of this case leaves you with doubt?

#209 mikeinistanbul

Thanks for the clarifications & background. By the way, are you Turkish or are you an ex-pat in Turkey?

funky chicken, let me tell you something--as I said, and others on this site know this, my own girlfriend, an Albanian Moslem, is living right this minute under the threat of being an honor killing by her family for dating me. I'm talking about the distinction, not excusing anything. When you actually live yourself in a situation of fearing a real honor killing, instead of sitting quietly where it's only a theory, then I will accept your absolute moral authority.

How about this, Nosubmission--the story itself, as I read it, makes absolutely no mention of a single element which makes up an honor killing--it makes not a single mention of what this young woman might have done which violates the religious laws in question--the laws that actually define what is or is not an honor killing. the story, again, as I read it, makes absolutely no mention of the motive for the crime. Is that clear enough for you?

#161 writermom
I just finished reading a 2004 BBC article that the police were going to reopen 1000 murder cases that they believe COULD be "honour killings" that were not investigated as such.

See how having a multi-culti society makes life so much more complicated? You have to have separate kinds of police investigations for each culture under the "big tent" of the multi-culti society, which is itself an empty placeholder which must be filled by all the foreign cultures which don't get assimilated.

I've just read Mark Steyn's "America Alone" and it is all fitting together much better.

My last word on "Honor Killing" for today:

From the homicide investigators' and the criminal prosecutors' points of view, the concept of "Honor Killing" may serve as a motivation to a homicide and thus another piece of evidence to convict the murderer(s).

The defense lawyer's use of the concept "Honor Killing" is to present it as a cultural value of a minority that should be respected in an American court of law and thus seeking leniency due to "mitigating circumstances."

Foreseeing that a liberal court would allow Muslim men leniency in a court of law that would not be given to non-Muslim men, and even give credence to Sharia Law's concept of Honor Killing, I would like to see the term and concept of "Honor Killing" scoffed at, mocked and dismissed by American society at-large, so a murderer will receive the full penalties of the law.

209 mike not in Great Britain, or in the US

absolute moral authority? snort I said nothing of the sort. I just said I'm not particulary interested in the "niceties" of the way muslims treat their women, or the cultural lies they tell to justify that treatment.

#152 Cognito

Since when have your words been decent, oh moral equivalentist troll?

Anyway, your goat's pining for you.

Kenneth, I am an ex-pat, American, Marine Corps veteran of the first Gulf War, and a Literature teacher at a university here. I don't take this subject lightly, I assure you. All any of you have to do is sit across the table from my girlfriend at lunch, as I did today, to know this. But that doesn't mean that I can just give in to non-factual arguments.

213 mikeinistanbul
The facts will come out in the investigation of course. I hope I'm not misinterpreting your tone, because it is easy to do online, but I was just asking you a simple question.

funky chicken--how about being concerned with the actual facts about a subject you are talking about. That would satisfy most requirements of civilized discourse.

215 hot rod kid I agree. It's like they try to use "honor killing" to justify their behavior. Sweet Lord, what a fucked up religion.

I have no patience for the flip side the libs try to use in this country either, with the whole "hate crime" crapola. Murder is murder, abuse of women is abuse of women, no matter what the supposed motivation.

As you say, the facts will come out during the investigation, which brings me back to what prompted my participation in the first place--why the sarcasm and contempt for people who simply did not see, from the story, the justification for suspecting an honor killing.

186 mikeinistanbul 5/16/2007 1:20:38 pm PDT

mikeinistanbul,

I think you kind of answerd your own question:

Cognito simply asks what in the story leads them to consider the possibility, and the level of sarcasm and contempt put on that legitimate question surprises me.

200

I'm afraid I haven't been around long enough to judge his statements by his "history,"

Hang around, in other threads you may see a pattern develop that some of us have seen.

#212 mikeinistanbul

I "hooked-up" with an Albanian Muslim girl from Macedonia in college for a short while- she was totally 100% non-observant, and seemed to have put Islam far behind her.

Her parents came to visit her in her dorm room once, and I happened to be in the room at the time. I could tell right away that they were "old world" people, and I expected some awkwardness, but there wasn't any.

222 mikeinistanbul
I take this matter very seriously partly because
I have been subjected to domestic violence. Was almost strangled to death by an ex boyfriend.

My situation had nothing to do with islam or some percieved honor slight, so I understand the difference.

Sorry, and once again, with respect--I can only read people's comments as they stand, whether I've been here one day or a hundred years. I'm a teacher--if I based my response to my students' questions based on their "histories," that would be the worst kind of unprofessionalism. I feel the same here.

Its the conspiracy element that points to this murder being an honor killing. Whoever did the actual stabbing knew that no one else in the house would come to her defense or attack him to stop the murder.

Now one small response to anyone who commits an honor killing would be zero religious accommodations in his prison cell. If religion is what drove a person to commit murder, then there is no reason that the State should make any effort at all to help that murderer continue practicing his vile religion while in jail.

"OK so you killed your sister because Allah made you do it, huh? Hmmm. Alrighty then, we wouldn't want to make him mad! Please tell us what kind of food Allah wants you to eat and which direction Allah wants the toilets to face in your prison cell and we'll get right on it for you." Insane.

As the Fort Dix incident demonstrated, the Balkans, and especially Albania, is the new home of jihadic Islam. Those people are not playing games.

With respect to a recent discussion about leading cause of death in pregnant women:

[Link: www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov...]

mikeinistanbul I'm not sure why you jumped me over the "honor killing" thing. I wasn't arguing with you or cognito about the use of the words. I was saying that I have zero patience with the way too many muslim men treat their women, and am disgusted that they use their religion to justify that.

I'd recommend you marry your girlfriend and move the both of you back to the US where she will be safe. I imagine she can't get a visa to travel to the US for vacation...or to become an exchange student or take a job training course?

I imagine it is terrifying for her, and must make you angry that her family might kill her and get off with a slap of the wrist for that.

226 mikeinistanbul

As I said, hang around for awhile, You just joined in April at the end.

We certainly don't need to be told or scolded about someone who usually is not productive in a large number of the threads IT posts in.

If you end up being his best buddy, great! Not everyone likes everyone here..it happens.

Actually, most honor killings don't involve conspiracy at all--the killer, and his family, will proudly proclaim it as an honor killing, because in their mind, they are proud of what they did, and, as I say, often that mitigates the penalties in court. And NoSubmission--I sympathize with you. This is very personal for me as well, for the reasons I've explained.

#218 mikeinistanbul

So you're a Marine and a literature prof? Outstanding!

I clicked your football and see that you are a relatively new member here. Great to have you aboard. I will look forward to reading your posts.

Highrise, go back to high school and try that, "If you like him so much, why don't you marry him," line. And while I appreciate the lesson in personal dynamics--"not everyone likes everyone"--the dynamic I am concerned with is how we respond to arguments, not to people. I saw nothing in his argument--and the naive newby argument doesn't change this--that necessitated the sarcasm and contempt. I still don't. I don't mean to scold. Sorry.

#12 ...I'm thinking we need a program that shuts down immigration of males under 40 from Muslim countries, and simultaneously encourages immigration and intermarriage of Muslim girls with Western men...

Unfortuneately or fortuneately muslum women cannot marry a non-muslum. This privelege is only for muslum men. This way they are able to keep their breeding stock to themselves and thereby increase the population of cockroaches.

Highrise,

Hang around, in other threads you may see a pattern develop that some of us have seen.

I'm the same person here that I am on any other thread. I'm happy to discuss and amend anything I've said wrong.

232 mikeinistanbul
But wouldn't you think in countries like the UK where it ISN'T okay to hack up your daughters, they would try to cover their tracks?

Good luck. I hope everything turns out for the best. I sincerely mean that.

You "clicked" my "football?!?!?!?" I thought I felt something just now, but I thought it was just testosterone from all the kebaps I eat here. Actually, I got my Ph.D. at Kent State while I was a reservist. I lost almost a whole school year in 1990-1991 for Desert Shield/Desert Storm.

234 mikeinistanbul 5/16/2007 2:03:40 pm PDT

I'm beginning to see your posts as someone that isn't trying to be all that respectful. They are very antagonizing with each posting...and it looks to me like you would rather spend your time picking a fight here. You aren't sorry lol so don't even bother saying it to me.

Sorry we don't all hold hands and sing kumbaya but if this convo is heating you up under the collar and disturbing you this much, you will spend much time posting here shaking your finger at many people because you dont like their *tone* on someone you admitted have not been around long enough to read.

Yup I'll say it again, not everyone will like someone..it happens.

#238 mikeinistanbul,

I gotta run, but I hope to see you around.

g'night folks... and as a fine man once said, "Play nice".

NoSubmission--not necessarily. As I say, even leaving out the legal mitigation, they are genuinely proud of what they've done--they believe they have done a righteous act. My only purpose in all this is to explain that "honor killing" is a term with a very specific meaning, both in religious and civil law. Believe me, as my office mate says, I have the largest anti-Islamic library in Turkey. So I'm not justifying or glorifying "simple" domestic abuse.

234 mikeinistanbul 5/16/2007 2:03:40 pm PDT

the dynamic I am concerned with is how we respond to arguments, not to people.

Don't be concerned. This blog has been running fine for years. It will do just fine..with or without cognito posting. Charles rocks and so do many of the lizards here that are great contributers.

#238 MikeinIstanbul

That you're of sound mind and sense is probably a fair indicator that you never had any of my mate Skelly's 'engine cleaning fluid' that they brewed up under the sangars then :-)

Highrise, you still have not responded to arguments, either mine or cognitos. You have interpreted our personalities, invoked "histories," assured me of the viability of the site, and such other devices to avoid actually discussing ideas. Even in your last, you resorted to the old "sorry we don't sing kumbaya," as if me asking people to justify their sarcasm to an idea--not a person's "history"--somehow makes me some weak-kneed pacifist peacenik. I am genuinely sorry if I sounded scolding, and, as someone else who responded to me said, it's hard to judge tone on the internet. And that person was right.

239 highrise I'd take an apology though. :-) He was pretty antagonistic to me for no reason...damn spunky feminist that I am.

I hope this case gets max publicity, and that my poor beloved dhimmified country begins to awaken to the evil that is spreading its wings within its borders.

Wishbone, I don't drink. But perhaps I'm not of sound mind and sense--or at least I'm learning that from my internet pscyhoanalyst here. That's a little snarky, I guess, and I'm sorry. I was always the designated driver to the strip clubs outside of Camp Lejeune, or at Company bar-be-cues and things like that.

244 mikeinistanbul 5/16/2007 2:16:03 pm PDT

I have no interest in responding to you or cognito's arguments about this subject because your arguments frankly don't interest me. You do know that is allowed here right? We don't always respond to every single argument brought up by all the posters or these threads would have 3000 posts. I already posted my feelings on the subject up above. I have long since put cognito on scroll by due to many many threads that you are unaware of that he wastes reading time. Now, some people like him and spar with him. That is fine, but I and some others choose not to...which is ALSO fine.

I merely have told you that you asked a question why some people don't respect cognito's opinion, and I then copy pasted you answering yourself...you are new and don't know the history. You want to toss that out, well you can't. Well ok you can toss it out if you want, but you'll be forever puzzled why some people on here and elsewhere...just *don't get along*. It happens.

For the most part, people do get along here...more than anywhere I've seen on the net.

245 funky chicken

HAHA /wink

funky chicken, I was actually speaking of you when I said that someone mentioned that it's hard to judge someone's tone over the internet. I should make it clear to you that I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, and I certainly have nothing against spunky feminists. I would not have lasted 20 years in academia if I did. As I've mentioned, my girlfriend was literally yanked off the street by her parents a little over a weak ago for the crime of dating me, and they whisked her away to Albania for religious re-education. I am very surprised she survived that, as was able to return to school. But it could happen again at any time. My committment to women's rights in the Islamic world, I'm going to say with a bit of arrogance, is as strong, if not stronger, than anyone's on this site. But, again, that doesn't mean that every killing is an honor killing.

Highrise, fair enough. But when one writes what you just wrote, you lose the right to call what you do any form of intelligent discourse. Let's ignore each other from now on. I'm not a Democrat, so I won't close with a phony, passive-aggressive, "peace out."

246 sabraguy Well, there have been quite a few like it already, and I'm not sure if there has been much effect. I hope so, but I don't see much evidence.

gotta get off the computer...kid's turn

Cognito 5/16/2007 1:12:22 pm PDT

169 Sharmuta,

I'll go one step further- any time a muslim man kills his wife, sister, or other relative(s) I'm going to assume it's an honor killing.

That's exactly the thing to avoid, because it's just not true. It places Muslims in a sort of mythical place, where they can do no wrong simply for the sake of the act itself.

Here's what I mean:

Can a Muslim steal, simply because he is greedy?

Can he lie, simply because he is dishonest?

And can he kill, simply because he is murderous?

Of course he can do all three things -- not in fidelity to some higher religious conviction, but just because he is capable of doing wrong and wicked things.

Qur'an 33:36, "It is not fitting for a Muslim man or woman to have any choice in their affairs when a matter has been decided for them by Allah and His Messenger. They have no option."

#229 Julio Jurenito

Interesting. And it seems that this study (although not the one referenced in my #45) contradicts the claims that most deaths of pregnant women are from homicide, BUT a casual reading of the study would lead one to think it confirmed it.

But

Conclusions. Homicide is a leading cause of pregnancy-associated injury deaths.

does not equal "Homicide is the leading cause of pregnancy-associated death."

The 'injury' subset qualification is crucial. Plus they found car accidents were higher. And included a year post-partum.

251 mikeinistanbul 5/16/2007 2:25:58 pm PDT

Highrise, fair enough. But when one writes what you just wrote, you lose the right to call what you do any form of intelligent discourse. Let's ignore each other from now on. I'm not a Democrat, so I won't close with a phony, passive-aggressive, "peace out."

See, now you understand why history DOES matter /wink.

It didn't take long for you to decide I wasn't worth it, eh? Yet how dare others make that call on cognito? It's ok..I can deal because I realize not everyone will like each other.

I got my Ph.D. at Kent State while I was a reservist. I lost almost a whole school year in 1990-1991 for Desert Shield/Desert Storm.

Hello new BFF.

LOL!

Otherwise:

Did I mention that I believe the pregnancy was prob a result of RAPE?

If in fact this was an honor killing.

250 mikeinconstantinople

My committment to women's rights in the Islamic world, I'm going to say with a bit of arrogance, is as strong, if not stronger, than anyone's on this site.

You've got some serious nerve. The words "pissing contest" and "skunk" come to mind. And I believe there is someone else at this site who's proven to have an incredible committment that far surpasses anything you've done.

Wishbone, an equally pedantic response: I would say it's reasonable to consider Bury a suburb of Manchester. It is only just outside Prestwich, is on the M60 and has a Metrolink station. Likewise Altrincham, Cheshire at the other end of the line. But strictly you're right.

236 Cognito

I'm the same person here that I am on any other thread. I'm happy to discuss and amend anything I've said wrong.

Classic! Thanks, Cognito. I needed the laugh.

These honour killings are a problem in the UK partly because of the attitudes of the judiciary. An example. My wife worked with a Bangladeshi lady -lovely person, bright,cheerful -- who went home one night from work only to be battered to death by her little shit of a husband.
The judge in sentancing him to only 7 years said " I am forced to take his culture into account when........"
And UK judges are not noted for their liberalism, so we must have something else at work here; paternalistic racism perhaps ?

From the information provided in the article, this episode fits the profile of an honor killing.

Selected quotes from the article:

“Police said there was no sign of a forced entry and nothing appeared to have been stolen.”

and

“Detective Chief Inspector Keith Dillon, who is leading the inquiry, said Mrs Ali's sister-in-law called the emergency services after discovering the teenager with horrific injuries in an upstairs bedroom.”

and

“"We heard a woman screaming 'she's dead' and we rushed outside. An ambulance arrived and one of them was shouting 'keep her alive'.”

These passages seem to exclude all living humans on the planet as suspects, except for the husband and his younger brother and sister.

If I had to guess what happened, given only the 4 reported people, I’d envision this scenario:

1. 16-year-old Younger Brother, possibly used to palling around with Older Brother, sharing his stuff, possibly even using OB as a bully-threat to others, now has a problem.

2. Older Brother is now married, and therefore gets nightly freak. Younger Brother isn’t even allowed to date Palmela hAnderson.

3. Younger Brother sees his new Sister-in-Law; basically his age, having nightly freak with Older Brother, but he can’t play. He can’t even look. He’s on his own.

4. Parents, who might have kept (or been keeping) things in check, are now out of the country, so Younger Brother makes his move.

5. My guess is that Sister-in-Law, quite rightly, rejects him. Possibly they are caught, but I’m guessing no, so he says something.

6. Older Brother catches them, or hears, or is told, and freaks. He can’t kill Younger Brother (if he did, he might also have to kill his sister), so he kills his wife. Older Brother’s honor is preserved.

This hypothetical scenario fits the reported facts.

While most of this is not culture-specific, the killing event has not been an acceptable part of Western Civilization for very many years, and is severely punished.

I think it has also not been acceptable in Buddhist, or Hindu, or most others, also for a long time.

In fact, even apes, baboons, cattle, sheep, goats, dogs and pigs also do not treat their females this way.

But it is acceptable in Islamic society today.

Add in the garage-mosque, and things strongly point a certain way. I'm guessing that the Vegas odds-makers are giving 1:2 or worse on honor killing.

What will the investigation reveal next? Stay tuned, same bat-time, same bat-channel.

#258 Dom

Hehe. I know mate. I used to spend a bit of time working around Bury and Bolton and loved to wind them up by calling them Mancs and telling them they all sound the same to 'us'. Along with the usual 'eeh bah gum' and 'Ecky thump' gags.

Of course, it always goes down well coming from a Scouser, up that way ;-)

I've come in rather late to this discussion. Non-moslems generally presume that 'honor killing' refers to the concept of homicide against, usually, a moslem female who is presumed to have transgressed the religious and cultural tenets of Islam by her relationship with a non-Moslem or her preference for non-Moslem dress, behavior, etc.

An aspect not usually mentioned in the Western press is that incest, as just one of many sexual tensions inherent in Islam's view of male and female, plays a large part in such misnamed homicides. In other words, to be blunt, a Moslem female will be killed in order to prevent either her testimony about, or her physical state revealing, the result of her sexual abuse by non-husband members of her 'extended' family, and that usually means brothers, fathers or uncles.

This comes as no surprise to those who know Muhammad's own conduct, in wedding a child of 6 and having sex with her when she was 9, or of his marrying his daughter-in-law after forcing his adopted son to divorce her, and of raping and encouraging his followers to do so as well. This example of a 'perfect man,' combined with the predestination at the core of this cult and Muhammad's stated contempt for and treatment of women, helps to explain that 'honor' homicides are very often cover-ups for incestuous rape. The prevalence of consanguinity in islamic societies (Moslem societies account for the overwhelming majority, world-wide, of marriages between first cousins, again a product of a tribal mentality) helps to explain the extent of repression and retarded mental (and moral) development. Last October, the Iranian Ministry of Education released statistics which stated that over 300,000 women and girls (average age of latter was 9) had run away from their homes with 86% of the girls having first been raped and then 'rejected' by their families because of the 'shame.' Also, under sharia law, if a woman is raped (and must provide 4 male witnesses to it) she is deemed, if rape is proven, to be 'guilty' of the 'crime' of sex outside of marriage and is punished under law with either beating, imprisonment or death.

What is implied is that the 'shame' and the concept of 'honor' have nothing at all to do with the behavior of the individual victim or her free will (which Islam rejects anyhow, free will being enjoyed by 'allah' alone). 'Honor', for what it is worth, belongs to the 'community', the tribe, the 'family' of Moslems, not to the individual.