joining islam itself is a death penalty

the death of one's soul

There is no compulsion in islam!

“There is no compulsion in Islam.”

The compulsion is getting out of Islam.

Under the revised law passed by Kelantan state, anyone found guilty faces a maximum penalty of six lashes with a rattan cane, five years in prison and a fine of almost $3,000. Kelantan is the only Malaysian state led by the opposition Islamist party, PAS.

I wonder what the penalty would be for trying to convert someone to Judaism?

Check out this link This Brit said it all! Wow!

There is no compulsion in Islam, no compulsion to convert, submit, or remain in Islam. You have a choice. You may exercise your free will.

Choose Islam or choose to lose your head.

No pressure. Just a free choice.

Welcome to the Hotel ISLAM...you can check in but you may never leave.

If I were Muslim (and I'm not), I would be embarrassed almost constantly by what my co-religionists are doing. Isn't it time for a Muslim Reformation?

There's no compulsion. How hard is it to pay the jizya, really? Those who refuse to do this little teensy thing, or refuse to become Muslim? Well, they're just getting what they deserve.

#8 Golem Akbar

Reformation? Apostasy!

OOPS sorry... try this

Caning, imprisonment and a fine rather than beheading... How very, er, moderate.

And just know some Christians will continue to carry out the Great Commission, in the very face of this law.

And they will do it without beheading anyone, or killing their daughters, or cutting off hands, or abusing women.

If anything, they will show the Muslims the compassion their own god refuses to provide them unless they kill in his name....

Actually, Islam is about as compulsive a religion as one can find. Is there a single world religion that even comes close to comparing with its compulsiveness?

Without the basic concepts of rights, liberty, and force, there can't be any discussion of a topic like this. They have learned to mouth the words, but they're empty.

Of course, the taqqiya angle is not to be overlooked either.

Proselytising of Muslims is forbidden under federal laws, but the recent case of Line Joy, a Malay-Muslim woman who sought legal recognition of her right to pick her religion of choice, raised fears among some in Malaysia over mass conversion.

Is the left listening? She had to fight the government to choose her religion. This goes against all of the ideals you claim to champion, yet you apologize for the very people who would rob you of those ideals. That makes you hypocrites.

/deaf ears

No death penalty? Very progressive.

Charles,

I was on the island of Kauai last week and I just happened by this place: The Lizard Lounge

I bet their excuse is this:

Anyone who converts a Muslim away from the true faith must be using a form of compulsion.

If you missed it.

Golem #8

Isn't it time for a Muslim Reformation?

Reform back to what? Mohamed raping 9 year old girls? Mohamed slaughtering the Jews of Medina? Everyone understand once and for all, a "religion" founded by an epileptic demon possessed man is acting exactly the way you should expect.

#18 Ringo the Gringo 6/28/2007 8:15:46 am PDT

Charles,

I was on the island of Kauai last week and I just happened by this place: The Lizard Lounge

When is Charles going to serve us drinks?

Because if you didn't keep them in this cult via threats, the Mosque would have a couple of dirty old men, a few loons, and the local Imam. everyine else would be learning how to read or be a bar trying to regain 1400 years of misery.

THE ISLAMIC SOCIETY'S MERITLESS LAWSUIT

#14 Godfrey

Is there a single world religion that even comes close to comparing with its compulsiveness?

The religion of the Political Correctness.

Ex-Muslims to Sign Freedom of Belief Declaration

Organisations of ex-Muslims in Europe are coming to Amsterdam in September to sign a declaration that Muslims must be free to renounce their faith. The move has been announced by Ehsan Jami, Labour (PvdA) council member in Voorburg and initiator of the Central Committee of Ex-Muslims in the Netherlands.

According to Jami, who has toured foreign sister associations, as well as the Dutch and German associations, groups of ex-Muslims from Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Finland, the UK and France will also come to sign the declaration. He says in this week's edition of Elsevier magazine that governments must also give their citizens the freedom to renounce their religion.

Openly abjuring Islam is according to Jami the biggest taboo among Muslims. Although the Koran does not say so in so many words, it is forbidden for Muslims to abjure Islam. In some countries and Muslim circles this actually carries the death penalty.

The 22 year old Ehsan Jami himself renounced Islam after the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks and began setting up the Central Committee of Ex-Muslims modelled on the German Zentralrat der Ex-Muslime last April. The committee's aim is to break the taboo on leaving Islam.

Jami says he has since had e-mails from around 200 potential members. These are mainly people who have renounced Islam due to its dogmas about women and homosexuals. "I expect it will only really get busy after September," predicts Jami.

'Netherlands Released Taliban Leader to Avoid Media Fuss'

The defence ministry has released a Taliban leader shortly after his arrest. The only reason was that the ministry did not want any 'fuss' in the Dutch media and the Lower House, according to Elsevier magazine.

The man was arrested at the beginning of June in the town of Tarin Kowt in the Afghan province of Uruzgan. He had a mobile phone on him with contact data of other Taliban leaders. He himself featured in reports by Western intelligence services.

By order of Secretary-General Ton Annink and General Jouke Eijkelboom at the defence ministry, the prisoner was immediately set free after his arrest. A very experienced soldier, according to Elsevier, commented: "They did not want any fuss in the press and the Lower House. They consider that we must play according to the rules of a children's game. As if we were at the village fair."

In Bangladesh, the punishment is death.

#20 Ben Hur
I was wondering about that post. It seemed very unlike you. Thanks for clarifying.

To those new States whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny." - Copy to Clipboard
-- John F. Kennedy innaugural address

Advice for Mr. Blair: Stop Patronizing the Palestinians

In taking the position of "international peace envoy" for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Mr. Blair will need to change the basic political parameters in order to avoid another catastrophic failure.
Most importantly, this will require abandoning the widely held images of Palestinian victimization and demonization of Israel. Palestinians must be shown that massive corruption, as well as terror and incitement have unacceptable costs, and that they must take control over their destiny.
British and European leaders, academics, NGO officials, journalists, clergy, and others who have fostered the patronizing image of Palestinian helplessness and who have turned a blind eye to corruption and terror must also change frameworks. Continued aid must be tied to performance in these key dimensions.
On this basis, it may be possible for Mr. Blair to encourage the transformation in Palestinian society that will one day create the basis for pragmatic compromise and a stable peace with Israel.

It's a pretty sucky religion if you have to force people to believe in it.

Maybe Bush et al, can go over to Malaysia and help them dedicate this new law, give a nice little speech and all, have his women advisers wear head-scarves and walk 3 steps behind and to the right of him and the men.

As always... I'm not shocked. Any society that bases itself on that demented book is bound to be repressive and backward. How could it not be?

Isn't it time for a Muslim Reformation?

No:

Do we want an Islamic Reformation?

Although the Reformation was a turbulent period while it lasted, it did pave the way for more tolerance and religious freedom in Christian Europe in the long run. This was, in my view, at least partly because Christians could return to the example, as contained in the Gospels, of an early age where the founder of their religion and his disciples led a largely peaceful movement separate from the state. Muslims, on the other hand, can find a similar example only in the Mecca period. As long as the writings from the violent Medina period are still in force, a return to the "early, Golden Age" of Islam will mean a return to intolerance and Jihad violence.

Some Western observers are searching for a "Muslim Martin Luther" who is expected to end the resurgent Islamic Jihad. But one could argue that we already have a Muslim Martin Luther: He's called Osama bin Laden, deeply inspired by the teachings of Muslim Brotherhood thinker Sayyid Qutb. If "reform" is taken to mean a return to the historical period of the religious founder, Muhammad, and his followers, it will lead to an inevitable upsurge of Jihadist violence, since that was what Muhammad and his followers were all about. The question of whether Islam is reformable is an important one. But perhaps an even more crucial one is whether an Islamic Reformation would be desirable from a non-Muslim point of view, and the likely answer to that is "no."

#21 Jehu

Reform back to what? etc.

Seriously, Christianity and Judaism all went through massive changes over the centuries, and reformed themselves into much more enlightened forces for good. It's time Islam had a similar reformation.

The only opposition-ruled state in Malaysia has approved stiffer penalties to deter people from trying to convert Muslims to other faiths.

So the caning is for the missionaries,

In Malaysia, Islam comes under state-level jurisdiction and religious authorities often send Malay Muslims who try to leave the faith for counselling and rehabilitation.

Some have also been imprisoned for apostasy.

but the muslims get jail or rehab.

/There's an Ann Coulter joke in there somewhere

Does anyone know of a link to a survey of "apostasy" laws in majority-Muslim countries around the world?

Of course there is no compulsion in islam. Everyone is really a muslim (most people just don't accept that fact - yet).
/imam mode off

technically, this story is not a good refutation of the 'no compulsion' thing. No compulsion refers to the fact that, supposedly, no one is forced to follow Is-ham.

The only opposition-ruled state in Malaysia has approved stiffer penalties to deter people from trying to convert Muslims to other faiths.

This law seems to be targeting people who try to CONVERT a Muslim to another-- not the muslim who converts (but I'm sure there is something in the local laws for them as well)

....just sayin'

#18 Ringo

Charles,

I was on the island of Kauai last week and I just happened by this place: The Lizard Lounge

I'll take a JD & coke please. (-:

But is there Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder in Islam?

37 Occasional Reader

Does anyone know of a link to a survey of "apostasy" laws in majority-Muslim countries around the world?

You could look here.

"Oprima el dos para cloture, por favor"
Down in defeat!

#34 Fjordman

Wow -- good point..So this might BE the muslim reformation we are living through?

ah...let just get it on...it is coming sooner or later. (WWV)

golem

Christians became more enlightened forces for good when they became more knowledgeable and faithful Christians.

OT:

Drudge just put up that the Immigration Bill has failed and the switchboard of the Senate was overloaded and had to be shut off.

#45 godfrey 6/28/2007 8:25:58 am PDT

Christians became more enlightened forces for good when they became more knowledgeable and faithful Christians.

Maimonides and Aquinas.

OT

It fails! 46-53

That calls for pancakes.

BBL!

OT:

Just an FYI: via Drudge

Immigration bill goes down in defeat
[Link: thehill.com...]

yeas 46
nays 53

Reid talking, he's very disappointed

chorus: awwwwwww

Golem Akbar: Islam is not comparable to either Judaism, Christianity or indeed any other established, major religion on earth.

#42 Sharmuta: Thanks, but that doesn't appear to be quite what I'm looking for. It's a list of religious rulings, but I'm interested in national law. I wonder in how many majority-Muslim countries is it legally persmissible for a Muslim to renounce Islam.

#34 Fjordman

The question of whether Islam is reformable is an important one. But perhaps an even more crucial one is whether an Islamic Reformation would be desirable from a non-Muslim point of view, and the likely answer to that is "no."

I disagree. The likely answer is "yes," since I can't imagine over one billion people on the planet just dropping their religion cold.

If Islam is not reformable, then we are all doomed. Remember, Christianity was the Catholic Church before Luther, and it was unchangeable. But the changes that the Church went through, and the results, created a Western European culture second to none. Western liberalism (the good kind, not today's liberalism), is a great culture that encourages growth, liberty, etc. American democracy is a prime example of that.

I'd say Islam is reformable. It had better be.

Die bill die.

Good news on the death of a bad bill!

I'm just a bill
on Capitol Hill
And [ratatatatatat]
arrrrgh

#8 Golem: That is why God sent Baha'u'llah, the Lord of Hosts.

He doesn't bring a 'new' religion, but the Renewal of the Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future.

The Muslim clergy/government fitted Him with a 90-pound iron collar, put His feet in stocks in a subterranean stinkhole with 78 murderers, thieves and other criminal scum, and waited for the collar to kill Him.

After months and it hadn't yet killed Him, the Russian ambassador intervened and He was released... exiled within 48 hours, to house-arrest in Baghdad...

10 years later, with tens of thousands of scholars, Muslims, Christians, Jews and former atheists attracted to His Being, the Muslims exiled Him to Constantinople... then to Adrianople...

...then to Akka, Prison City near Haifa, Holy Land.

He pitched His tent decades later on Mount Carmel, after the Young Turks released political prisoners...

His mortal remains rest outside Haifa, in Bahji.

The remains of the One Who came May 23, 1844 and was martyred by Muslims July 9, 1850, are in the golden-domed structure atop Mount Carmel... The Bab, or Gate, through Whom came the Great Reformer, the Glory of God.

Baha'u'llah is KEY to this Islamic 'problem'...

Junior

Fox is reporting that as well.

Is it too early to get excited?

If there's no compulsion in Islam, why join it? Why pray 5 times a day and make that great trek to the holiest of all holy sites the black rock of medina? I see this "religion" as a mind control cult... only Mohammed was a thousand years ahead of Jim Jones and his merry band of koolaid drinkers.
Why hasn't the "Ignited Nations" in New York set up some sort of tribune to decry the persecution of Mohammedians who want out of the cult? Where is Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch?

The Nays being 53 and the Yeas being 46 the motion to close debate is defeated. The amnesty bill is dead.

Golem 35

Seriously, Christianity and Judaism all went through massive changes over the centuries, and reformed themselves into much more enlightened forces for good. It's time Islam had a similar reformation.

Christ who IMO was a much greater authority than Mohamed stated, "A slave is not greater than his master." Meaning that a river does not rise above its source. The mistake all those make that think Islam can modernize, or reform like Christianity or Judaism is that you think Islam is a legitimate religion.

You must judge a religion to a very large part by its founder, and his life. So Moses for Judaism, and Christ for Christianity. When Christianity went off the rails, it could reform (return) to the original teachings of its founder and early converts.

In fact Christianity came off the rails to a large extent when the clergy denied the original scriptures of the Church and withheld them from the people, the early reformers were burnt at the stake many times for returning the scriptures to the people.

Islam is evil from its inception, the best you can hope for is widespread apostasy and decline. The jihadist movement IS their REFORMATION.

Reid asks that Byrd be given twice the amount of time usually given to speak (will be given 20 min)

/*fingers in ears* la-la-la-la

Re: a Muslim Reformation, As I understand it, because Mo was an illiterate deviant, the koran is different than the actual Holy books in that the words were literally put onto paper by allah. There can be no "new" interpretations based on new understandings or new cultural norms. It is what it is.

taxfreekiller-
You can stop calling my office now, por favor. The fax machine ran out of paper, too.

Now seal the borders and start punishing employers. Match SSN and hire a few buses. Pass a law to stop anchor babies (no you cannot break a law to gain a right).

To me, "The Lord of Hosts" always sounds like a hotel management company.

Maybe he is going to announce his resignation. He is talking about his tremors. Byrd that is.

Amnesty Bill dead (again?)

No way Jose!

Death penalty if you leave the group? Yup, sounds like a street gang to me.

Anyone elese hear about new UK PM appointing anti-israel cabinate members?

51 Occasional Reader

I wonder in how many majority-Muslim countries is it legally persmissible for a Muslim to renounce Islam.

It's a good question. They would have to be non-shari'a, that's all I know.

#45 Godfrey

Christians became more enlightened forces for good when they became more knowledgeable and faithful Christians.

Again thanks to the Reformation, that ultimately made the bible more accessible to the masses. I'm not Christian, either, but all western civilization has the Reformation to thanks. There would have been no Renaissance without the Reformation movement (and probably vice versa).

I took a graduate level class my senior year at UT in advanced oil well stimulation, and there was a Malaysian hottie named "Ima', which she said was short for 'Fatima'. She was pretty friendly, and she was a Muslimah. Her boyfriend, who was also a Petroleum Engineering grad student, however, was usually pretty surly. Maybe because he noticed American dudes checking out his girlfriend.

Charles? Perhaps a dead thread to show proper respect for the death of the immigration reform bill?

iSlam - RoW (Religion of War).
iSlam means submission in Arabic.
If submission/slavery isn't compulsion, I don't know what is.

My faith in the system is tentatively restored.

/very tentatively

Ding, dong, the [immigration] bill is dead!

Jaun McCain
You have also run out of money. And I notice that you are not at the Kennedy-McCain Amnesty photo ops with the fat boy. Mel Martinez has taken your place.

Psst! Charles- you're headlines are out.

CNN still doesn't have the news up.

I can hear them screaming..."NO! NO! This can't be!"

Eat me

Another Bush defeat

my senior year at UT in advanced oil well stimulation, and there was a Malaysian hottie named "Ima'

I think I saw this movie.

"Oooh, Ed, I missed today's class on how to stimulate my oil well. Can you show me?

[bwaaamp bomp bwaamp]*

__________________________________________
* transcription of classic pr0n soundtrack

#80 Peacekeeper

But in this case, a victory for America.

Da Bill Iz Ded!

Long Live The Bill!

What repercussions, I wonder, on both parties from this debacle?

Remember those who voted for this monstrosity in 2008. Remember, and vote!

#48 Noam

It fails! 46-53

That calls for pancakes

Are you kidding... Time to hit the lizard bar.

Bartender I'm buying.

SCOTUS Win today also!

The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected diversity plans that take account of students' race for assignments in Seattle's public schools.

[Link: seattlepi.nwsource.com...]

Good day!

I cannot tell you how glad I am this turkey is finally beheaded. How do we get something actually useful and good done in DC? These slimeballs just don't have a frikkin clue. Maybe Charles's Lizards ought to hit em with the big, dangerous CLUEBAT.

No es bueno!

We can expect to hear much discussion of the "Fairness Doctrine" after this defeat. Maybe even talk of applying it to web sites, too. You build it, but we get equal time on your creation to trash what you say.

/Fairness Doctrine Fauxtoshop

#83 Chill: Oh, YOWZAH!

I do SO HOPE that this Amnasty Monstrosity is DEAD!

Now, BUILD THE BARRIER we voted into law already, and THEN we can discuss illegals already IN country!

Ed, was she a virgin? The surly boyfriend must have been keeping her pure for marriage? No drilling on his turf, I reckon.

#86 bolivar

Now we have to make sure POTUS and the Legislators know it put a fork in it.

Fashion Faux Pas

#60 Jehu

Islam is evil from its inception, the best you can hope for is widespread apostasy and decline. The jihadist movement IS their REFORMATION

I can't defend Islam because I'm not a Muslim, but I wonder how many Moslems can actually read the Koran? There are other strains of Islam that I know of, inlcude B'Hai (sp?), and others.

I can't link to it now, but I have read articles by Daniel Pipes and others more knoweledgeable about Islam than myself, who say that Islam is capable of reforming itself, and there are those within the religion that are trying to do just that.

Allah - what a sick, repulsive, little god....

If it weren't for laws forcing people to worship him (in which case it isn't exactly worship is it?) he would only have murderers and thugs.

Remember - Judge each tree by its fruit. What is the fruit of Islam?

As someon married to a foreign national and who went through all the shenanigans to get my wife and daughters greencards, legally I am EXTREMELY HAPPY to see that this bill didn't get passed. I'd dearly like to see that INS and the other organizations start crackign down on illegals and the "organizations" which support them.
I'm not anti immigrant but I am anti illegals. If peoplw want to come to my country, let them do it the right way, and integrate into the culture.

Ding don the witch is dead

the wicked witch is dead!

Or at least her immigration bill

We won.

Democracy won and an out of touch white house and congress finally heard the people.

A beautiful thing

Hmm, what will be the next rotten turd that the Dems get Bush to embrace?

#85 jcm: Isn't that GREAT?

SCOTUS: "Treat human children like... well, HUMANS! Do NOT ask seperate questions based on the student's skin color or earlobe shape or hair-diameter..."

#80 Peacekeeper

The Fairness Doctrine

Islam can be reformed.

That is, in effect, what the truly moderate Muslims have done.

Here's why: there is sufficient ambiguity in Islamic holy writings to permit a generally more moderate interpretation. Plus, just like Judaism and Christianity, the Muslim world can agree that Islam was meant to be an evolving rather than static religion.

This thread provides a clue. If only Muslims emphasized "There can be no compulsion in religion..."

what will be the next rotten turd that the Dems get Bush to embrace?

The National Mandatory Bicycle Helmet Recycling Act of 2007.

(With a little-noticed rider: The Humongous Amnesty Amendment)

Norway: Responses to female circumcision

"I had never thought that there were so many. This goes against the indications I get from Somali mothers," says midwife Sara Kahsai.

Golem Akbar: Daniel Pipes is wrong. Islam isn't reformable, if by "reform" you mean something along the lines of peaceful and accepting secular laws.

#93 Golem: "I wonder how many Moslems can actually read the Koran?" I guess their great prophet mohammed woulnd't be one of them since he was illiterate. Most of my muslim friends kind of muse about having to memorize prayers in arabic that they don't understand. Here in Turkey, there's a movement to have the prayer calls done in Turkish like they were 40 years ago, instesd of standard arabic.

Palestinians back Iran bomb

Ewoks.

Well, the at least temporary defeat of the Kennedy-Bush-McCain Amnesty bill, can be credited to a great deal to talk radio.

Look for even louder noises from the Demonrats to impose 'The Fairness Doctrine' on talk radio.

Of course, no need in TV, the center-right "Faux News" provides a counter-balance for CNN and Keith Olbermann's MSNBC, and ABC, CBS and NBC.

Or newspapers. The NY Sun and Washington Post balance the 100 something other newspapers that strongly support the Dems.

Or movies, one movie about patriotism in ancient Greece like "300" balances out all the Michael Moore documentaries, and "Loose Change", and all the many movies where the villains are white supremacists or oil companies.

Or talk radio. Despite the commercial failure of Jim Hightower, Mario Cuomo and 'Air America', the Dems still have state funded NPR.

Ooops, sorry.

Good investment?

I have a feeling some of you already have one.

#105 Ben Hur

Pali's have the delivery system on standby.

[Link: thirdrail.smorgasblog.com...]

I meant the Disaster House

#105 Ben:

Also from your link--

When it came to attitudes towards the US, Israel and the Palestinians were placed, unsurprisingly, on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Only six percent of Palestinians expressed support for the US-led war on terror, the lowest of any population, while just 21 percent of Palestinians said they had positive feelings toward the American people, as opposed to American policies, the survey found.

"America's closest ally in the region, Israel, continues to have overwhelmingly favorable

views of the US. Nearly eight-in-ten Israelis (78 percent) give the US a positive rating," the research found.

Shocka!

"It is equally troubling that 77 percent of Palestinians do not believe in coexistence with Israel. Instead, they appear to support Iranian President Ahmadinejad’s threat to ‘wipe Israel off the map.’

Anutha shocka!

Quraneyeens: The Egyptian Police Latest Victims

15 Egyptians now languish in prison. Their charge? They are Quraneyeens. Now I bet very few people in Egypt know about the El Quraneyeens. They’re Muslims who believe in the Quran, and only the Quran.

Reminds of the Samaritans (Shumranim) in Israel.

OT

Pence Proposes ‘Broadcaster Freedom Act’ to Prohibit Return of ‘Fairness Doctrine’

We need this to prevent the defeatocrats from doing this.

#109 Ben Hur

DH1 Disaster House (2006)

14' square, 30" high structural floor. Made from sustainable European birch with phenolic resin finish both sides. Structure assembles without fasteners. Four-point contact to slab, footings/pads, simple router-cut manufacturing; easy shipping/assembly. Insulated/waterproofed with plastic canvas or other skin not included.

(?)

Ben: A "disaster house" made out of "sustainable European birch"? I don't think so.

Video Shows Ex-Marine,72,Beat Pickpocket.

Damn.

From the Fox site:

Even before the end of the vote, FOX News had tallied 15 vote changes from two days earlier, putting an end to the doomed legislation.

Republican Sens. Pete Sessions of Alabama and Jim DeMint of South Carolina remarked on the Senate floor that the sergeant-at-arms' office told them that the volume of calls leading up to the immigration vote was so high it had crashed the phone system, and no one was able to get through during morning debate

FULL STORY HERE

Unilateralism.

Unable to build a coalition.

I'd want my "disaster house" made out of sustainable steel-reinforced concrete.

(Alternately, I just use my friend Mr. Mossberg to take someone else's house.)

#56 Carradine:

Do what now?

Ding dong the bill is dead, the bill is dead .... ding dong the wicked bill is dead.

Charles? The phrase does not say “There is no compulsion in Islam.”. Doesn't even have a period but is a part of a run on sentence.

Any way, it isn't talking about islam; it is referring to Judaism and Christianity as they must now stop compelling because islam is so right and clear now. Islam has trumped Judaism and Christianity which it says are in error so they got to quit the compelling.

002.256
YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
PICKTHAL: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
SHAKIR: There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
KHALIFA: There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

[Link: www.quran.org...]

Carridine,

The wall needs to be built to higher specifications than proposed, I think. Penn and Teller showed on their show that it takes all of 3 minutes to bust through the gubmint spec wall. An impenetrable wall would be practically impossible to build, unless it was built to East German standards, which might be a bit of an image problem.

I think a better solution would be to really really crack down on the employers who provide a magnet for illegals to cross the border. Extremely stiff fines and imprisonment are called for. Up to and including confiscation of assets (treat hiring of illegals as a RICO violation).

W. Enforce the existing laws! You have been entrusted with upholding the laws that congress has passed. Do your job, dammit.

So, the latest incarnation of the immigration bill is dead. How long will that last before the usual suspects try to resurrect it yet again.

This bill can't be killed often enough - that's how bad it is. And Congress thinks that they deserve a pay raise for this nonsense too.

Kennedy (D-Chivas) is busy calling opponents of the bill nasty names - and trotting out Nazi references to boot. Way to go Teddy!

Charles must be saving the immigration vote thread for later on.

/tapping fingers on desk...........

#56 Carridine

thanks, i'll take Jesus.

#125 BulgarWheat

There now!

No compulsion in Islam. Compulsion is at such a basic level it's not even recognized as such -- anyone who doesn't believe this just come here to Istanbul, where five times a day everyone -- everyone -- is obliged to listen to the izzan, no matter what else you happen to be doing, saying or listening to.

It doesn't occur to Muslims to question whether mosques have the right to do this, as the compulsory nature of Islam is simply understood.

We happen to live within earshot of three mosques, and it sounds like a cacophony of Hell's locust swarm at izzan time.

It's the Hotel Allahfornia!

You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave...

Some new footage of Iranian gas stations....
Gas stations in Tehran burnt to protest Iran's oil rationing

There is no compulsion in religion, except when there is.

raised fears among some in Malaysia over mass conversion.

yeah, if they're free to leave, they might leave

if threatened with beheading or imprisonment, they stay Muslim

that's nice

/barf!

#132 I'm a self-employed business writer so I can live anywhere, I worked here as a journalist in the '90s and really like the city. I met my wife -- I'm American, she's a New Zealander -- here, and we decided to move back after having kids, hoping they'd like it as much as we do. My wife runs a citywide relief ministry for migrants and refugees in Istanbul and I do my writing here. Great place to live overall, really.

51 Occasional Reader

I wonder in how many majority-Muslim countries is it legally persmissible for a Muslim to renounce Islam.

You could try this....a lot to wade through, tho', since it gives info on the state of religious freedom for pretty much every country in the world.

"Convert or Die" - just like the Necromancers in Chronicles of Riddick.

We need ole Riddick to show up and start kicking some serious butt. Bush and the Republicans sure aren't going to.

When the "followers" of what you call a "religion" can be easily shown the fallacies of that "religion" and can easily be converted to follow a TRUE religion, then you seek ways to make those working to "awaken" those followers "pay" as well as those who convert.

muslims claim in one breath That allah is compassionate, but in the next that he wants a muslim to murder anyone who converts from islam to a REAL religion.

THANK GOD I am a CHRISTIAN and not a muslim.