just read this elsewhere

so sad

... well what about those days when you post like a maniac hmmm?

Maybe doping should be mandatory for international cycling?
/

Why can't he have a blood transfusion?

hes not american how can this be?

could everyone just go beck to square one and compete as themselves?

Might not a sentiment to compete drug free grow among younger competitors

This seems now to taint every sport and every record now is suspect

Cycling is dopier than your average SWAT team.

What a shame. i thought yesterday he was getting his 'rage on' for screwing up the day before. He looked very smooth and powerful in the ITT.

The first drug scandal in bicycle racing was in in 1896.

BTW I was coached by one of the '84 Olympic team members who was shocked when the coach wanted them to blood dope (not illegal then) after Danny Van H. sent the pursuit rides on their ears in Colorado. Dumb then, dumb now.

re: #2 greenmamba

?

re: #5 pegcity

hes not american how can this be?

He's Kazakhstani - the Jews are behind this setup. Ask Borat, he knows!

Seriously, I know nothing about this, what is blood doping? I understand steroids, but not this.

This is very bad for professional bicycling.

I don't think the doping is getting all that worse lately, but rather the testing to catch it is getting better.

As someone who loves cycling, this is just hugely depressing

Take two bottles of Cytomax and a 60 mile ride, and call me in the morning.

what a dope ;)

At least basketball and football are free of any drugs/thugs
/s

Tight butts drive me nuts.

Here's a thought - let atheletes in all sports dope themselves to the gills, as they please. They're just games, folks.

How do you test for a self infusion? By RBC counts? Maybe he trained at altitude. From what I understand, in reduced oxygen environments, people naturally develop a greater density of RBC.

Too early in the day (at least for me) for a TADT.

re: #9 cbinflux

I'm thinking wrong thread , maybe

OT
Next time you fill up...

$210,000 bill for (Dubai) drinks in London!

As the pump price tracks toward $4/gallon.

/But, we're fighting for cheap oil, right?! Grr.

Blood Doping and Cycling
re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

What is blood doping?

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

The objective is to have a higher concentration of red blood cells in your blood, increasing your aerobic capacity. Apparently, they still think they can get away with it if they're using their own blood. But like 3 wood said, the testing to catch it is getting better.

#11

Seriously, I know nothing about this, what is blood doping? I understand steroids, but not this.

Wikipedia has a good explanation: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Had problems with the link function. Argh!

re: #15 RTLM

At least basketball and football are free of any drugs/thugs
/s

LOL. Who would've thought that the days of linebackers doing lines of coke off a hooker's ass would be considered the "good old days" of the NFL?

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Seriously, I know nothing about this, what is blood doping? I understand steroids, but not this.

IIRC, it goes something like this:
transfusion = extra red blood cells
extra red blood cells = higher oxygen-carrying capacity
more oxygen = more energy & stamina

re: #16 MandyManners

Tight butts drive me nuts.

It's all in the Lycra.

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Blood doping is where you take on some blood via transfusion and hopefully the extra hemoglobin lets you uptake more O2. Of course if you are not using your own blood, there a blood born illness that can screw you up. Plus some people get high fevers after and in fairly short order, the body excretes the excess.

re: #17 Mike C.

Here's a thought - let atheletes in all sports dope themselves to the gills, as they please. They're just games, folks.

here's another thought:

let's legalize everything : all problems solved

no crimes

kewl!

Yet somehow this guy passed the drug test and is in the race.

re: #23 Charles

Thanks Charles!

Vinokourov is on the right.

His favorite animal must be a cheetah.

/ducking from flying objects...

re: #20 paint-right

Somethin'...

Wow! Thanks to everyone! (I just love learning something new.)

re: #9 cbinflux

Just idly wondering how Charles manages to keep up his furious posting sometimes, especially on days when he cycles.

re: #33 FQ Kafir

YIKES!...Is that guy for real?

I would love to see the Tour run on a three year rotation like this:

%u2022 Regular road bikes

%u2022 Tandems

%u2022 singles with streamlining fairings allowed

Then back to the start

According to cyclingnews.com it wasn't a self-infusion, it was a transfusion from a third party:

The Tour de France was rocked by news that Astana's battered team leader, Alexandre Vinokourov, tested positive for a homologous blood transfusion after Saturday's time trial in Albi. L'Equipe reported on Tuesday afternoon that the Kazakh's blood had shown evidence of a transfusion from another person with a compatible blood type in an analysis done in the Châtenay-Malabry laboratory. The positive test was later confirmed by the Astana team.

re: #31 Ringo the Gringo

Yet somehow this guy passed the drug test and is in the race.

Nothing but pure Puss N Boots in his blood stream.

Well the "Bullet" transmogrified to:

%u2022

re: #37 greenmamba

re: #9 cbinflux

Just idly wondering how Charles manages to keep up his furious posting sometimes, especially on days when he cycles.

wait, you're not implying...!

/

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

What you do is have blood drawn out earlier, weeks or months ago. Then the oxygen carrying cells are condensed down and the resulting product preserved. Then, just before undergoing some major effort, you transfuse the product back into the person so their blood is carrying an extra load of oxygen carrying cells.

It's like suercharging your blood as an athlete.

Why not just use an altitude tent instead?

Poor Charles. Sigh... ):

Saw this this other day; guess it still fits...

re: #44 3 wood

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

What you do is have blood drawn out earlier, weeks or months ago. Then the oxygen carrying cells are condensed down and the resulting product preserved. Then, just before undergoing some major effort, you transfuse the product back into the person so their blood is carrying an extra load of oxygen carrying cells.

It's like supercharging your blood as an athlete.

would there be transfusion entry points visible on the body?

re: #28 cbinflux

Don't spoil my thing, please.

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Seriously, I know nothing about this, what is blood doping? I understand steroids, but not this.

it's the human equivalent to overclocking a CPU.

Charles, I'm sorry to hear this - I know you love cycling - but I have to say, the blood angle makes me think of this headline:

Vampire Biker Booted

re: #37 greenmamba

re: #9 cbinflux

Just idly wondering how Charles manages to keep up his furious posting sometimes, especially on days when he cycles.

For his sake, Charles must be tested! He's all hopped-up on AJAX!

re: #40 Bucky Katt

Thanks, Bucky, I just saw that. Vino's a moron and a cheater.

re: #48 MandyManners

re: #28 cbinflux

Don't spoil my thing, please.

Your thing will never spoil.

This is what happens when you crown gods instead of champions.

What about that baseball guy with all the home runs now?

re: #49 beblebrox

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Seriously, I know nothing about this, what is blood doping? I understand steroids, but not this.

it's the human equivalent to overclocking a CPU.

Uh, huh?

Arafat died of AIDS, confirms Palestinian leader

- surprise surprise - or not.

The Fwench can only win when everyone else has been disqualified.

22 years of embarrassment on home soil is long enough.

1980 Joop Zoetemelk, Netherlands
1981 Bernard Hinault, France
1982 Bernard Hinault, France
1983 Laurent Fignon, France
1984 Laurent Fignon, France
1985 Bernard Hinault, France
1986 Greg LeMond, USA
1987 Stephen Roche, Ireland
1988 Pedro Delgado, Spain
1989 Greg LeMond, USA

1990 Greg LeMond, USA
1991 Miguel Induráin, Spain
1992 Miguel Induráin, Spain
1993 Miguel Induráin, Spain
1994 Miguel Induráin, Spain
1995 Miguel Induráin, Spain
1996 Bjarne Riis, Denmark
1997 Jan Ullrich, Germany
1998 Marco Pantani, Italy
1999 Lance Armstrong, USA

2000 Lance Armstrong, USA
2001 Lance Armstrong, USA
2002 Lance Armstrong, USA
2003 Lance Armstrong, USA
2004 Lance Armstrong, USA
2005 Lance Armstrong, USA
2006 Floyd Landis, USA

re: #55 Ojoe

What about that baseball guy with all the home runs now?

my point exactly

hoping for a backlash among younger athletes

/allowing mutant drugoids to compete is not the way to go IMHO

re: #55 Ojoe

What about that baseball guy with all the home runs now?

Barry Bonds (and Sosa and others) is guilty as hell, and there should be a huge asterisk beside his stats.

re: #58 jcm

What Gaul!

re: #58 jcm

i was in paris at the arch de triumph for armstrong's first win.
It was awesome!

re: #59 paint-right

Yep. Clean living.

& a rebirth of moral and martial virtue, to paraphrase Winston Churchill.

re: #60 cbinflux

re: #55 Ojoe

What about that baseball guy with all the home runs now?

Barry Bonds (and Sosa and others) is guilty as hell, and there should be a huge asterisk beside his stats.

I remember Hank Arron's count down, it was big and everyone was watching, Bonds by comparison is a big yawn.

re: #60 cbinflux

I didn't want to say his name.

Of course the non-French front runner is disqualified. The Francois need a home winner desperately.

Not that I am in any way condoning cheating. It's low and erases any merit in the competition.

I do think that the souped-up blood thing is ingenious. We should offer it for our military superheroes if they are interested and it is not harmful. If it is, forget it!

re: #18 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

How do you test for a self infusion? By RBC counts? Maybe he trained at altitude. From what I understand, in reduced oxygen environments, people naturally develop a greater density of RBC.

How long does the raised RBC last after altitude training? The test in question was taken after stage 13 of the Tour.

And I don't know how often they test before and during the Tour, but it seems to me that by now they would have a good general idea of the range and pattern of variation over the course of the Tour, and also the effect of altitude training prior to the Tour.

Just for example, if a cyclist tested significantly higher on RBC count two weeks into the Tour than he did on day one, I would think that would be a red flag.

Charles' linked article was interesting. What it shows is that a high degree of medical assistance is required for such cheating. Not all athletes have access to centrifuges or the ability to use them competently.
Is the medical profession just as bent as any other now ?

re: #47 paint-right

Yes, but they are real easy to hide.

re: #63 Ojoe

re: #59 paint-right

Yep. Clean living.

& a rebirth of moral and martial virtue, to paraphrase Winston Churchill.

Like Eric Liddel

whose bio I have on dvd

re: #70 paint-right

I will google him.

re: #17 Mike C.

Here's a thought - let atheletes in all sports dope themselves to the gills, as they please. They're just games, folks.

Yeah, and give a shout out to the donors whose red-cells won the race.

re: #65 Ojoe

Oh! ...Why?

re: #73 cbinflux

No publicity for dishonor.

Oh, man, I'll bet Andreas Kloden is pissed. He's on the same team, and was in fifth place.

I'm outta here & to work.

re: #64 jcm

Oh, for those days of baseball... Maris and Matle, Aaron, Lefty K., Ozzie...

OT: The Iranian Connection,

Robert William (Bob) Ney is a current federal prisoner and a former Ohio Congressman from 1995 until November 3, 2006.

On October 13, 2006 Ney pled guilty to charges of conspiracy and making false statements in relation to the Jack Abramoff lobbying and bribery scandal.

Ney reportedly received bribes from Abramoff, other lobbyists, and two foreign businessmen - a felon and an arms dealer - in exchange for using his position to advance their interests.

Conspicuously missing from this dossier of disservice to the country is Ney’s masterful creation of an active and disguised Washington-based lobbying enterprise for the Iranian theocratic regime, The National Iranian-American Council (NIAC).

NIAC is an effective node of Tehran’s comprehensive US lobbying web.

Alarming, to say the least!

Pimf, Mantle

re: #66 cookielady

I do think that the souped-up blood thing is ingenious. We should offer it for our military superheroes if they are interested and it is not harmful. If it is, forget it!

It makes your blood real thick and you can have a heart attack as a result.

Sometimes athletes will do real dumb in the pursuit of performance.

I pitched a 7 inning game in college one time with a broken index finger on my pitching hand. Dumb.

Finger bothers me to this day and always will.

re: #30 paint-right

Um, we're not talking muder, rape or theft here. In large part, we're talking about playing with a ball. My grandson can play with a ball. So what ?

re: #78 Kenneth

And today, we start a Persian-American Security Council (as American copper is ripped from churches to be turned into armor piercing rounds in Iran >> Iraq)

re: #5 pegcity

hes not american how can this be?

because he's not French.

Barry Bonds is the greatest player of our time. So he took some steroids to bulk up. Does strength alone make you hit home runs? If that were the case, the home run champ would be Magnus Magnussen or something like that.

And what about all the pitchers who take steroids to heal injuries faster? Should their numbers be thrown out? What about all the outfielders hepped up on amphetamines?

Don't single out Barry Bonds just because he's an asshole to fans and the media.

I know I'll get flamed pretty hard for this, but who's to say Hammerin Hank didn't take a pick-me-up here and there? Would that change anything? I hope not.

re: #75 wrenchwench

Oh, man, I'll bet Andreas Kloden is pissed. He's on the same team, and was in fifth place.

Really pissed if he was the donor.

So disappointing...

And it was a great race to this point.

If Contador tests positive, I'm giving up on the sport.

{wrenchwench}

re: #85 cbinflux

Really pissed if he was the donor.

You use your own blood, that way it is genetically identical.

As Charles knows the level of effort required to compete in this event is beyond the capability of even the most serious athletes. So these guys are already well past the normal envelope.

Thus, the temptation in the form of glory and money to gain the one or two seconds that separates the winner from the pack is enough for them to rationalize what they do.

Remember, none of these very sophisticated methods is even remotely possible without the sanctioning by the team management and ownership.

OK, suspend the athletes but really, it is time to hit the manipulators big time.

re: #78 Kenneth

OT: The Iranian Connection,

Robert William (Bob) Ney is a current federal prisoner and a former Ohio Congressman from 1995 until November 3, 2006.
On October 13, 2006 Ney pled guilty to charges of conspiracy and making false statements in relation to the Jack Abramoff lobbying and bribery scandal. ...

he's a republican too.

re: #68 Pass The Moonbaticide

Charles' linked article was interesting. What it shows is that a high degree of medical assistance is required for such cheating. Not all athletes have access to centrifuges or the ability to use them competently.
Is the medical profession just as bent as any other now ?

One can buy all of the equipment on used medical supplies sites. The knowledge is already in the locker rooms.

re: #56 cbinflux

re: #49 beblebrox

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Seriously, I know nothing about this, what is blood doping? I understand steroids, but not this.

it's the human equivalent to overclocking a CPU.

Uh, huh?

sorry, work called. overclocking a CPU is essentially forcing a CPU to perform beyond it's design specifications by forcing it to work faster. for example, overclocking a 2GHz processor to 2.5GHz. it will work for a while but the extra heat eventually destroys the chip.

same with blood doping. you are forcing the body to carry more oxygen to the cells than it is naturally capable of doing. kind of like having super lungs, i suppose.

re: #87 3 wood

To hark back to the dead thread, who is our best-known luthier here ? It's either K T or K B, but I can't for the life of me remember which one.

re: #81 Mike C.

re: #30 paint-right

Um, we're not talking murder, rape or theft here. In large part, we're talking about playing with a ball. My grandson can play with a ball. So what ?

yeah, i know, but slippery slope and all

Like I said before I'd rather not have drugged athletes, mutants (future) etc competing. It affects lids, too, as they see it as a norm or acceptable.

Not good.

re: #93 paint-right

re: #81 Mike C.

re: #30 paint-right

Um, we're not talking murder, rape or theft here. In large part, we're talking about playing with a ball. My grandson can play with a ball. So what ?

yeah, i know, but slippery slope and all

Like I said before I'd rather not have drugged athletes, mutants (future) etc competing. It affects lids, too, as they see it as a norm or acceptable.

Not good.

Meant "kids"

{tridroid97}

I hope your all-natural cycling (and swimming and running) is going well. Don't let the actions of others cause you to give it up.

re: #66 cookielady

Of course the non-French front runner is disqualified. The Francois need a home winner desperately.

Not that I am in any way condoning cheating. It's low and erases any merit in the competition.

I do think that the souped-up blood thing is ingenious. We should offer it for our military superheroes if they are interested and it is not harmful. If it is, forget it!

The department of defense is working on far more advanced technology for our military superheroes. There are no doubt many "black projects" involving nanotechnology and nanomedicine. currently underway. One example of blood "doping" in the (I believe) near future is examined here:

[Link: www.transhumanist.com...]

Imagine future soldiers being able to hold their breath, un-aided, for 100 minutes or more.

only the french would have the leader in there national race wear yellow.

why am i not surprised.

then there is the guy in the poka dot jersey. that is a horse of a different color

re: #84 Know Your Enemy

No flame here, just a couple things to clarify:

Amphetamines do not help muscle to recover faster or build muscle mass. That being said, speed was pretty wide spread in the 60's and 70's. That and pain killers. Hank may or may not have used that stff, but either way it did not help him to swing the bat faster. Steroids and HGH do.

When I played in college in the 70's, the ol' greenie was around, some guys took them like vitamins. In the Pro's they would put it in the coffee in the clubhouse. You'd go into the club house and there would be two coffee urns, one with speed in it and one marker "Regular" that was without.

In some cases the speed was legal, technically"prescribed" by a team doctor. They were pretty free and easy with the cortizone shots back then too. Steroids and HGH generally are not legal.

#95 wrenchwench

Thanks for the good wishes, but I'm into a forced rest period right now.

I was riding a century about three weeks ago. At about mile 47 I crossed wheels with a very agressive young man who needs to sharpen his skills a bit. I went down at about 25-30 mph and suffered 3 cracked ribs and a good bit of road rash. I also have a nicely broken helmet to show why you wear one when riding. Rode to the next aid station at 55 miles then dropped out.

Bad timing too, as I have six weeks between law school terms and had hoped to get some good training in.

Oh, well...

At least I'm on Tylenol (and red wine) instead of steroids...

re: #93 paint-right

The crime regarding kids is raising millions upon millions all across this country and the world to believe that some sport is the ultimate in human achievment. It ain't. They could be doctors, engineers, cancer researchers, etc., etc., etc. But as a society we condition them to think that if they can't play with a ball (or it's equivalent), they ain't shit. There's your real crime right there.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with participating in a sport or sports. I enjoy a game of volleyball (at which I really, really suck) and also greatly enjoyed racing sailboats (yes, I sucked at that, too.) But that didn't disuade me from pursuing other stuff at which I was far more likely to make a decent living. And which is more important to boot.

re: #92 Mike C.

To hark back to the dead thread, who is our best-known luthier here ? It's either K T or K B, but I can't for the life of me remember which one.

I really don't know. I can recommend some good ones I use, though.

re: #99 tridroid97

I went down at about 25-30 mph and suffered 3 cracked ribs and a good bit of road rash.

Ouch, been there, done it.

But you will heal, the important question is, how is your bike?

re: #101 3 wood

My gut tells me it's Kilgore Trout. He made a mistake putting a new neck on a 18th-19th century cello, and damned-near cried on a thread. He estimated 6 months work down the toilet on that goof. So he is obviously doing serious work on serious instruments. But yet another luthier, whose nic I completely forgot, chimed in on that same thread, IIRC.

There is an extremely wide spread of knowledge and talent hereabouts.

Horrible. and if he really did dope it is bad bad bad.

However, I still have doubts about the French and their "lab" testing.

re: #89 Fritz_Katz

Bob Ney was an associate of former White house staffer, Iranian-American, David Safavian, now convicted in the same Abramoff scandal. In 1997, Safavian and Grover Norquist founded a lobbying firm, the Merritt Group, which was renamed Janus-Merritt Strategies. One of Merrit Group's clients was Abdurahman Alamoudi, the founder of the American Muslim Council.

Al-Amoudi and other Muslim leaders met with then-presidential candidate George W. Bush in Austin in July 2000, offering to support his bid for the White House in exchange for Bush's commitment to repeal certain anti-terrorist laws.

After the September 11, 2001 attacks, Al-Amoudi spoke at the Washington National Cathedral prayer service for the victims of the attack.

Al-Amoudi has been described an "expert in the art of deception" in a report by Newsweek journalists Mark Hosenball and Michael Isikoff, for expressing moderate, pro-American sympathies in his lobbying and public relations work with Americans, but then being caught on camera expressing support for Hamas and Hezbollah at an Islamist rally. [1]

On July 30, 2004 he pled guilty to three charges of illegal dealings with Libya, after admitting that he participated in a plot to murder Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah for Muammar Gaddafi and accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars from top Libyan officials, in addition to tax and immigration violations. He was sentenced to 23 years in jail.

In 1998, Norquist founded the Islamic Free Market Institute[18] (sometimes just called the "Islamic Institute") with money from a number of sources, mainly in the Middle East. Conservative activist Frank Gaffney, whose offices were on the same floor of the building where Norquist works, said that Al-Arian visited with Norquist in July 2002.[19]

re: #99 tridroid97

Thanks for the good wishes, but I'm into a forced rest period right now.

I was riding a century about three weeks ago. At about mile 47 I crossed wheels with a very agressive young man who needs to sharpen his skills a bit. I went down at about 25-30 mph and suffered 3 cracked ribs and a good bit of road rash. I also have a nicely broken helmet to show why you wear one when riding.

I'm so sorry to hear that. I smashed my helmet almost a year ago, knocked myself out for a few minutes, but I'll bet your ribs hurt more than any part of me did. Especially if you have to sneeze!

#102 3 wood...

But you will heal, the important question is, how is your bike?

Yes, the road rash is mostly gone, but it still hurts to breathe deeply.

I ride a Seven Cycles Axiom.

As you might imagine, it's almost perfect. The only visible damage is on the brake lever handles.

Thanks for your concern.

re: #103 Mike C.

My gut tells me it's Kilgore Trout. He made a mistake putting a new neck on a 18th-19th century cello,

Oh. My. Gosh.

and damned-near cried on a thread. He estimated 6 months work down the toilet on that goof.

I want to cry just reading that.

There is an extremely wide spread of knowledge and talent hereabouts.

I am constantly amazed by that.

By the way, have you ever seen a frettless banjo? Guy I was jamming with in Kentucky had one. Neck had all kinds of inlayed pearling. Beautiful instrument.

re: #107 tridroid97

As you might imagine, it's almost perfect. The only visible damage is on the brake lever handles.

Thanks for your concern.

I got hit by a car about a year ago. Lady blew a stop sign, on a cell phone. All I cared about when I got off her car hood was my bike.

re: #24 wrenchwench

re: #11 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

The objective is to have a higher concentration of red blood cells in your blood, increasing your aerobic capacity. Apparently, they still think they can get away with it if they're using their own blood. But like 3 wood said, the testing to catch it is getting better.

How do they catch a transfusion if it's your own blood, is it a ratio of red to white blood cell thing?

re: #17 Mike C.

Here's a thought - let atheletes in all sports dope themselves to the gills, as they please. They're just games, folks.

You make an interesting point. After much of athlets die at a young age due to heart and brain complications... that could shake up the sporting world.

re: #108 3 wood

I used to own a fretless banjo. I bought a Lynn & Healy "Mystic" model (C.A 1902 or so) banjo, and the fretboard was completely shot. The neck was warping, too. I had a thick ebony fingerboard put on it (which strenghtened the neck) and had a nice, ornate inlay centered at the 5th fret installed. Strung it with nylon so as not to overdo the neck. A bitch to play above the location of the 7th fret.

Alas, it was stolen.

re: #109 3 wood

re: #107 tridroid97

As you might imagine, it's almost perfect. The only visible damage is on the brake lever handles.Thanks for your concern.

I got hit by a car about a year ago. Lady blew a stop sign, on a cell phone. All I cared about when I got off her car hood was my bike.

I've managed to be lucky, haven't been tatered...yet... (knocking on wood) I had a close call with a dog (TDF anyone) while riding the course for the upcoming tri this weekend.

re: #110 Old Tanker

How do they catch a transfusion if it's your own blood, is it a ratio of red to white blood cell thing?

Yes, they have all kinds of "norm's" they compare you to, plus they track your historical trends over time. That's what they got Landis on, a sudden spike in testosterone level.

re: #114 3 wood

re: #110 Old Tanker

How do they catch a transfusion if it's your own blood, is it a ratio of red to white blood cell thing?

Yes, they have all kinds of "norm's" they compare you to, plus they track your historical trends over time. That's what they got Landis on, a sudden spike in testosterone level.

BTW, have they come back with a ruling on Landis' yet?

re: #84 Know Your Enemy

Barry Bonds is the greatest player of our time. So he took some steroids to bulk up. Does strength alone make you hit home runs? If that were the case, the home run champ would be Magnus Magnussen or something like that.

And what about all the pitchers who take steroids to heal injuries faster? Should their numbers be thrown out? What about all the outfielders hepped up on amphetamines?

Don't single out Barry Bonds just because he's an asshole to fans and the media.

I know I'll get flamed pretty hard for this, but who's to say Hammerin Hank didn't take a pick-me-up here and there? Would that change anything? I hope not.

Well, hand eye coordination is required to hit the ball at all, and obviously Bonds had that. But obviously, there are 300 hitters who don't hit 40 home runs a season. Muscles are a big part of it. Bonds experienced an increase in shoe and hat size after he started doing the steroids. People don't usually experience head and foot growth when they are about 30 years old. But Bonds did.

re: #105 Kenneth
Wow, Lot's of interesting stuff there. Thanks!

re: #113 Old Tanker

I've managed to be lucky, haven't been tatered...yet...

I learned to never assume somebody will stop at a stop sign. Now I just stop and wait for the entire intersection to clear.

Here's my commuter bike, an Electra Amsterdam. Not fast but boy is it comfortable...and it withstands a car hit real well :)

re: #80 3 wood

re: #66 cookielady

I do think that the souped-up blood thing is ingenious. We should offer it for our military superheroes if they are interested and it is not harmful. If it is, forget it!

It makes your blood real thick and you can have a heart attack as a result.

Sometimes athletes will do real dumb in the pursuit of performance.

I pitched a 7 inning game in college one time with a broken index finger on my pitching hand. Dumb.

Finger bothers me to this day and always will.

That's all I needed to know. Not for our guys, no way!

Thanks. And, sorry about your finger.

re: #115 Old Tanker

BTW, have they come back with a ruling on Landis' yet?

Not that I am aware of.

re: #116 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

re: #84 Know Your Enemy

Barry Bonds is the greatest player of our time. So he took some steroids to bulk up. Does strength alone make you hit home runs? If that were the case, the home run champ would be Magnus Magnussen or something like that.

And what about all the pitchers who take steroids to heal injuries faster? Should their numbers be thrown out? What about all the outfielders hepped up on amphetamines?

Don't single out Barry Bonds just because he's an asshole to fans and the media.

I know I'll get flamed pretty hard for this, but who's to say Hammerin Hank didn't take a pick-me-up here and there? Would that change anything? I hope not.

Well, hand eye coordination is required to hit the ball at all, and obviously Bonds had that. But obviously, there are 300 hitters who don't hit 40 home runs a season. Muscles are a big part of it. Bonds experienced an increase in shoe and hat size after he started doing the steroids. People don't usually experience head and foot growth when they are about 30 years old. But Bonds did.

How many home runs would have been caught at the warning track without the steroids?...just a thought

Oddly enough, he got dropped the stage before last (losing 29 minutes), and then went on to win yesterday's stage. Hmm...shades of Floyd from last year. I still maintain that Landis is innocent, although I can't say why. I guess I just figured that, like Lance before him, these guys are poked more than a pin cushion, so why try?

Now that Vino has been tested positive, I wonder about Landis. The one key difference here is that Landis never withdrew--and neither did his team, Phonak. He has maintained his innocence since day one. Vino is out. Astana, who was second overall to Discovery Channel in the GC has withdrawn. This does not look good.

The one guy who I'm PISSED for is Andreas Kloden. He's on my fantasy cycling team--and now he's out. I really wanted that Scattante OCR, dammit!

We need baseline testing when guys are new so that anomalies that may exist are noted and that clean riders like Lance don't get penalized because their physiology isn't "normal."

One more thing...so much for the "rider's pledge" that was signed pre-Tour. Apparently it wasn't translated into Kazakh...

3 wood Addendum

Ever handle a lute ? The "frets" are actually string segments, tied around the neck very tightly indeed. Very primitive. And very cool.

re: #113 Old Tanker

I've managed to be lucky, haven't been tatered...yet... (knocking on wood) I had a close call with a dog (TDF anyone) while riding the course for the upcoming tri this weekend.

Hey now, don't be knocking on 3 wood!

{not so Old Tanker}

re: #84 Know Your Enemy

Not flaming you,but it does make a big difference in being juiced or not .Part of hitting is bat speed and strength,look at b.b.'s numbers,juiced and mid-way in his career.many of the fly-outs that were recorded(lesser strength)now that same contact on the bat has the power to go out of the park. you're using an unfair advantage..we can argue semantics all we wish,but in any book,it's cheating.

re: #117 Fritz_Katz

I'm just learning about these connections myself. Clearly, the enemy is among us.

re: #119 cookielady

Thanks. And, sorry about your finger.

Oh, I was 19 years old and thought I was a tough guy. Broke it on the first pitch of the game, caught a line drive back to the mound with my bare hand, one of those instinctual, blink of the eye type of things.

Threw circle change ups all game, gave up 3 hits and lost. Still pissed about the loss.

This is really depressing. First German television stops coverage of the Tour due to a positive test of a T-Mobile rider (not in the Tour I believe) and T-Mobile may yank their sponsorship - and now this.

104 Frogmarch

"However, I still have doubts about the French and their "lab" testing."

I'm not too keen on that lab either. I don't how much is incompetence or malfeasance but I read that during the French Open tennis tournament, the ITF (International Tennis Fed.) lacked confidence and had samples flown to a WADA lab in Montreal for testing. And one poster above is correct, assuming Kloden isn't involved, he's probably looking for a shotgun right about now.

re: #96 turn

Imagine future soldiers being able to hold their breath, un-aided, for 100 minutes or more.

Holy scubas, batman! :-0

re: #123 Mike C.

Nope.

Thought about it but never tried one...hmmm...now I got to go find one.

I learned to never assume somebody will stop at a stop sign. Now I just stop and wait for the entire intersection to clear.

Here's my commuter bike, an Electra Amsterdam. Not fast but boy is it comfortable...and it withstands a car hit real well :)

I'm with you there. Fortunately I live in a county with about 100,000 people, when you get out in the country you can go 30 miles without seeing so much as a car.

I'm riding an old Specialized S Works that I cobbled into a tri bike. I'm hoping for one of THESE!

This encapsulates fans of cycling's feelings right now:

British rider David Millar, himself a reformed drug taker, has been leading the campaign to clean up the sport. His comment during his own Saunier Duval team’s press conference in Pau, sums up the feelings of most: “I just feel like crying right now.”

If you want to track Landis's case, go here. TBV is a pretty good summary. Or call Greg LeMond. He's always crying about something.

re: #131 Old Tanker

Ooops, most of that was someone elses post, a reply to 3 wood #113

re: #131 Old Tanker

Aack ! At those prices, you're halfway to a Sportster, dude !

re: #122 cosmo

The one guy who I'm PISSED for is Andreas Kloden. He's on my fantasy cycling team--and now he's out. I really wanted that Scattante OCR, dammit!

I'm with you, now Kloden has a real good reason to hate Vino. And Kloden waited for him in the Alps, can you imagine where Kloden could have been right now!

re: #134 Mike C.

re: #131 Old Tanker

Aack ! At those prices, you're halfway to a Sportster, dude !

I know, why do you think I'm riding a 15 year old Specialized!

Why do they do this? They must know they will be caught.

122 Cosmo:

"I wonder about Landis. The one key difference here is that Landis never withdrew--and neither did his team, Phonak"

They couldn't withdraw. The Landis positive test didn't come out until after the Tour was over. There were repercussions though as the team's new sponsor (I-Shares I think) bailed on them.

Don't forget that the race leader Rasmussen is also under a doping cloud and has just been kicked off the Danish national team. He reportedly missed four out of competition doping tests because he didn't notify the Danish federation of his whereabouts.

re: #124 wrenchwench

re: #113 Old Tanker

I've managed to be lucky, haven't been tatered...yet... (knocking on wood) I had a close call with a dog (TDF anyone) while riding the course for the upcoming tri this weekend.

Hey now, don't be knocking on 3 wood!

{not so Old Tanker}

Nope wrench, that would be desk wood today as that is all I'm riding right now...I'd love to skip out on work right now, the weather is perfect here...(daydreaming)

Heading to the next thread.

The doping is just everywhere now.

re: #107 tridroid97

I Like Ti.

:-)

If you want to read something more uplifting about pro-cycling read about this guy

a cycling hero

re: #134 Mike C.

Aack ! At those prices, you're halfway to a Sportster, dude !

And you don't have to worry about that pedaling thing, or hills for that matter! ;-)

re: #135 Old Tanker

Kloden should show him some good old-fashioned German understanding and compassion--Teuton style.

I used to look forward to the tour. Now I cannot bare it.

re: #142 WalterMitty

re: #107 tridroid97

I Like Ti.

:-)

Ti is the way to. Here's my rig.

re: #138 John B

I thought about that after I posted...the PS on that is that Phonak was later implicated and is no longer fielding cycling teams.

Good catch.

Do not believe these Dirty Uzbek lies.

re: #147 Krampus

re: #142 WalterMitty

re: #107 tridroid97

I Like Ti.

:-)

Ti is the way to. Here's my rig.

... way to go. PIMF

re: #57 Rune

[Link: www.israeltoday.co.il...]
i would say this is more important that what the arafish die of. although i wish arafish had died of lead poisoning.

I also think there was betting going on with ties to the mob.

Imagine how great a golfer Tom Kite could have been if he had the Lasik surgery Tiger Woods had. It just ain't natural. rofl

This is not good.

Charles, what's the status of Floyd Landis's situation?

How stupid must he be? Wasn't he there last year when Floyd Landis tested positive after his super-human, come-from-behind ride on the final stage? Surely he must know that the winner of every stage is tested.

It's just sad; Floyd's ride and Vino's ride (at the time) were truly inspirational to watch when they happened. I'll still Tivo the Tour and watch every minute, but every time I see super-human, come-from-behind ride, I'm going to suspect the dope's on dope. (especially if he's going through 2 water bottles every 5 km).

re: #153 Ward Cleaver

I'm not Charles, but hey:

Trust but Verify

(in best french accent:)

'It was really verrry sample. We learned through our intelligences that Messieur Khadafi Ghaddafi likes verrry much to have ze tongue go from 2:00 to 10:00 about ze anus and back and forse, verrry quickly. After zat, it was sample to have our Foreign Ministre do ze right thing.'

Mon dieu! Wrong sread!

re: #145 cosmo

re: #135 Old Tanker

Kloden should show him some good old-fashioned German understanding and compassion--Teuton style.

A beer stein upside the head...

re: #150 Krampus

re: #147 Krampus

re: #142 WalterMitty

re: #107 tridroid97

I Like Ti.

:-)

Ti is the way to. Here's my rig.

... way to go. PIMF

You guys like the Titanium that much? What's the advantages over Carbon? I am seriously in the market for a new bike next year and I'm curious...

Here is a good primer on blood doping by a doctor just published in Velonews.

[Link: www.velonews.com...]

#159 Old Tanker

IMHO, it's all a matter of personal preference. All 4 of the major materials have their advantages and disadvantages. Ti, Al and C are all stiffer than Steel and fatigue leads to more catastophic failure.

I think that a proper fitting frame and components that work for you are more important than the actual materials of constuction of the frame.

My road bike is Ti and my Tri bike is Al. I'm faster on the flats on my Tri bike, even though it's about 2 pounds heavier, due to aerodynamics and geometry. I can climb hills better on my road bike because of weight and stiffness. They're also different sizes. My Tri bike is a 58 cm and my road bike is a 56.

Different strokes...

re: #159 Old Tanker

re: #150 Krampus

re: #147 Krampus

re: #142 WalterMitty

re: #107 tridroid97

I Like Ti.

:-)

Ti is the way to. Here's my rig.

... way to go. PIMF

You guys like the Titanium that much? What's the advantages over Carbon? I am seriously in the market for a new bike next year and I'm curious...

Ti is just easier to maintain. Carbon is great, but it doesn't last.

re: #33 FQ Kafir

No. That's Hillary. Vino's in the middle.

re: #162 Krampus

It specifically doesn't last when you're not sub-200, either...

My seatpost still doesn't speak to me.

All The News That's Fit to Print

All The News That Fits (Our Agenda) We Print

There, that's "updated."

Oopre: #165 Drained Brain

Oops, wrong thread but worth repeating anyway - heh heh...

Not to defend Vinokourov, but anything that comes out of the f*cking incompetent Chatenay-Malabry lab should be considered "suspect".

re: #164 cosmo

re: #162 Krampus

It specifically doesn't last when you're not sub-200, either...

My seatpost still doesn't speak to me.

Me neither, pushing about 205 right now.re: #161 tridroid97

#159 Old Tanker

IMHO, it's all a matter of personal preference. All 4 of the major materials have their advantages and disadvantages. Ti, Al and C are all stiffer than Steel and fatigue leads to more catastophic failure.

I think that a proper fitting frame and components that work for you are more important than the actual materials of constuction of the frame.

My road bike is Ti and my Tri bike is Al. I'm faster on the flats on my Tri bike, even though it's about 2 pounds heavier, due to aerodynamics and geometry. I can climb hills better on my road bike because of weight and stiffness. They're also different sizes. My Tri bike is a 58 cm and my road bike is a 56.

Different strokes...

It seems from looking around that there are more fit options with the carbon than the Ti. Everything I've read or heard is to go with fit first, everything else is secondary.

re: #167 Spiny Norman

Not to defend Vinokourov, but anything that comes out of the f*cking incompetent Chatenay-Malabry lab should be considered "suspect".

If it came from that lab, you're right. The pit in my stomach is that they pulled out...

Here's an idea, how about a a new level of sports. Ultra-Pro.

In Ultra-Pro sports athletes would be required to be doped to the gills. In fact, if they didn't have the minimum levels for performance enhancing drugs (PEDs) in their bodies-they wouldn't be allowed to compete!

Think what this would do for football, baseball, and multiple olympic sports. Imagine how greco roman wrestling would be. PEDs would make pairs figure skating worth watching just to see how high/far the guy threw his partner.

re: #66 cookielady

Of course the non-French front runner is disqualified. The Francois need a home winner desperately.

Vino was not the non-French front runner. He was in 23rd place, trailing the race leader (a Dane) by more than 28 minutes, and he had no chance at all of winning the Tour after falling behind in one of this week's mountain stages.

There are no longer any Frenchmen or French teams in contention for a podium spot and disqualifying Vinokourov does nothing to change that.

sorry if this has already been mentioned, as I haven't gone through all 170+ comments...

I wonder why it wasn't stated in the article which country this guy is from.

Am I the only one to believe that if it were an American, the article would have started out with: American Tour de France rider Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for a banned blood transfusion...

Am I the only one?

#168 Old Tanker

It seems from looking around that there are more fit options with the carbon than the Ti. Everything I've read or heard is to go with fit first, everything else is secondary.

True, true...

Also depends on what your objectives are.

If you are trying to be fast and competitive, you get one style/type of frame. If you are doing triathlon, another. If you want to just be comfortable, another.

If I wanted to be more comfortable, I would have gotten a 58 cm frame for my road bike, raising the handlebars relative to my seat post, making me sit up straighter. Notice that the TDF riders have relatively smaller frames, putting their seats higher than their stems. This is a more agressive style, puts them lower, offers less resistance and makes them faster. It's also harder to maintain, requiring very strong back muscles.

You can get the fit that you want in any material. Just have to get the model that you want. As far as Ti goes, Litespeed is great, Merlin better (owned by Litespeed now, I think), and Seven will custom make the frame for you, but it costs (worth it, IMHO).

For the record, I am a 51 year old triathlete, runner and biker that has been competing since 1972. I was going after the state Olympic distance championships until I crashed 3 weeks ago in the middle of a hundred mile ride. My Tri-bike has about 25,000 miles on it and my road bike about 12,000. I may still do the event, but now it will be strictly for fun, not competition. Olys are short enough that you can pretty much wing it if you don't care if you place well.

re: #172 JenBee

sorry if this has already been mentioned, as I haven't gone through all 170+ comments...

I wonder why it wasn't stated in the article which country this guy is from.

From the second paragraph (see above)

The positive test of the Kazakh rider

He's from Kazakhstan. Perhaps it looked to you as though he was riding a "Kazakh" bicycle or something...

lol @ me...

THANK YOU wrenchwench! I totally, completely missed that one!
I figured he was from Russia or around there from the sound of his name, but I did totally miss that.

thank you for so tactfully pointing that out to me :)

re: #173 tridroid97

I am a 40 year old age grouper and since I typically compete a half IM or shorter. I am leaning toward being pretty aggressive and going for speed (I do the occasional 1/2, mostly Olympic or sprints) After getting my tri bike I will probably stay with my Specialized (turn it back into a roadie) It is really comfortable and climbs like a mountain goat, as old as it is, it is a really nice roadie.

I like the aerodynamics of the carbon frames (for Tri's) but we have a local 4 day 4 century ride from Lansing Mich to the Mackinaw bridge called the DALMAC. A friend and I did the quad-century ride and he was on a Felt Tri bike. the first 2 days last year had an ugly crosswind of about 20 mph and was pushing him all over the road. he spent about 80 miles on my back left cuz of the wind.

Showed me the limitations of the aero frame and made me realize I better hang on to that old roadie! It's been good to me so I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bath water.

charles - I agree - this and the cloud around Rasmussen is devastating. How could vino be so dumb?

I hoped that this Tour would finish without a drug scandal, but it’s not to be.

Really?
I'm surprised. If there is anything more sure in this world than the sunrise and sunset, it is a doping scandal during the Tour De France.

Here's some info on the (what I call "questionable") blood doping tests.

[Link: www.velonews.com...]

Well crap. Here I was saying to myself "I wonder if the Fwench are going to target Vino after he bonked stage 14, then came back to win 15. Sounds too much like Landis last year." Then dang if I don't come here and see this... must be some smug Frogs tonight (today).

First--since everyone's pushing their rigs, I say get a Cervelo. That way you only run into problems with the DS having a doping history. Besides, it's comfy, fast and (even though it's pre-carbon), sexy.

Okay, I based my support (now slightly shaken) on Floyd on the fact that...well, how could he be so goddamn stupid to take something that he knew would be tested for, and wouldn't do him any good in the short-term anyways? Besides, what were the ratios on the days he held yellow and the time trial he won? And do the t/e ratios naturally change in the aftermath of a crappy day in the saddle, or in a subsequent hero-ride?

Tyler Hamilton...another guy who...well, what kinda idiot would go doing autologous blood when he KNEW they were going to test him? Label me hopelessly naive if you will, but I still want to give the benefit of the doubt to Tyler--again, not least b/c he'd have to be a F*ckin' idiot.

I'd lump Vino in the same grp as these two except...well, he pulled out, didn't he? Or was it the ASO telling the team it's time to wrap things up? I'm waiting to hear what he has to say.

They're gonna have to find alot of "irregulars" before Moreau gets yellow.

so the moral of the story is: IF YOU'RE GOING TO DOPE, COME IN SECOND!

ps--if you want to reply, send a copy to my email if you get a chance as I'm at work

re: #167 Spiny Norman

Not to defend Vinokourov, but anything that comes out of the f*cking incompetent Chatenay-Malabry lab should be considered "suspect".

It just doesn't make sense that he would dope with someone else's blood, knowing full well that the tests would likely get him. Since he won a stage a couple of days ago, another sample would have been taken and will be tested. My understanding that the life expectancy of a red blood cell is 120 days max, so if a later test doesn't show the presence of another person's blood, something will really be fishy.

It's all the fault of the Jews. And the Americans. And Bush. I can't figure out why, just yet, but I'll do my best to find a reason. Or does Kos have a reason yet...?

Simon0596: As far as I know, autologous blood-doping, i.e., storing and using your own blood to boost oxygen capacity, is wholly undetectable if done properly. It's homologous doping, i.e., using another's blood, that is detectable by marking and scanning antigens in a cell-by-cell stream. Tyler and Perez were both cases of homologous doping. Puerto involved autologous doping.

I'm really upset with Vino. He's perhaps the hardest man in the entire European peloton and really doesn't need that crap. I have to assume he has been under immense pressure to resort to these tactics in these circumstances. I hope a mistake has been made. I fear one has not. Oh well. Another hero down.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

the tour is 'de bomb'