LGF

Fisk Joins the Troofers

Sat, Aug 25, 2007 at 8:29:05 am PDT

From Cox & Forkum Editorial Cartoons.

Meanwhile, British crackhead journalist Robert Fisk shows once again why he inspired the LGF Idiotarian of the Year Award (the “Fiskie”), with a screed in the Independent that embraces the Troofer view of reality: Robert Fisk: Even I question the ‘truth’ about 9/11.

A classic title—“even I, the wise and all-knowing Robert Fisk!”

I am increasingly troubled at the inconsistencies in the official narrative of 9/11. It’s not just the obvious non sequiturs: where are the aircraft parts (engines, etc) from the attack on the Pentagon? Why have the officials involved in the United 93 flight (which crashed in Pennsylvania) been muzzled? Why did flight 93’s debris spread over miles when it was supposed to have crashed in one piece in a field? Again, I’m not talking about the crazed “research” of David Icke’s Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Center Disaster – which should send any sane man back to reading the telephone directory.

I am talking about scientific issues. If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers – whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C – would snap through at the same time? (They collapsed in 8.1 and 10 seconds.) What about the third tower – the so-called World Trade Centre Building 7 (or the Salmon Brothers Building) – which collapsed in 6.6 seconds in its own footprint at 5.20pm on 11 September? Why did it so neatly fall to the ground when no aircraft had hit it? The American National Institute of Standards and Technology was instructed to analyse the cause of the destruction of all three buildings. They have not yet reported on WTC 7. Two prominent American professors of mechanical engineering – very definitely not in the “raver” bracket – are now legally challenging the terms of reference of this final report on the grounds that it could be “fraudulent or deceptive”.

(Hat tip: LGF readers.)

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179 comments

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1 Drained Brain  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:31:39am

Would this be called self-Fisking?

2 chubby vegan  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:32:03am

Just don't really like the Troofers. Is that okay?

3 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:32:27am

What's stupider than a moronic idiot?

A FISK

4 JWM  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:33:21am

Redefining stupid for the unwashed masses.
Someone has to do it.

JWM

5 BignJames  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:34:03am

What about the third tower – the so-called World Trade Centre Building 7 (or the Salmon Brothers Building) – which collapsed in 6.6 seconds in its own footprint at 5.20pm on 11 September?

Ever hear of gravity?

6 ShaneBorgess  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:34:59am

Any sane man would go to the book store and buy Popular Mechanics "Debunking the Myths of 9/11." Why would an educated man write so ridiculous a column? Is he lonely?

At least now he'll have Ron Paul supporters there to give him hugs!

7 Thanos  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:36:37am

Another follower of Hamid Gul, ex-head of Pakistan's ISI who started the Taliban -- Hamid had this to say on 9/26/2001, fifteen days after 9/11:

“Mossad and its accomplices [are the 9/11 culprits]. The U.S. spends $40 billion a year on its 11 intelligence agencies. That’s $400 billion in 10 years. Yet the Bush Administration says it was taken by surprise. I don’t believe it. Within 10 minutes of the second twin tower being hit in the World Trade Center CNN said Osama bin Laden had done it. That was a planned piece of disinformation by the real perpetrators.” (UPI United Press International, Sep. 26, 2001)


Do the truthers know or care that they are being fed agitprop by the deposed Old-Guard, Al Qaeda Loving ISI?

8 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:36:42am

SCIENCE?
This [deleted] idiot would know science if it hit him between the eyes.

The steel didn't have to melt.


IT WAS MECHANICALLY DAMAGED BY THE CRASH.
THE FIRE PROTECTION WAS STRIPPED BY THE CRASH.
IT WEAKENED IN THE FIRE.

I didn't need to melt.
[deleted] idiot.

9 mean Gene  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:36:48am

re: #5 BignJames
Troofers believe the spin of the earth should have forced these buildings to fall over sideways...they heard that golfers mentally include earth's rotation in their mental calculations before addressing the ball.

10 mike_trivisonno  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:38:13am

It is stunning that even in the face of 1,400 years of violent jihad, this author still returns to silly explanation. Someone should send this gentleman a Koran and few well-written history books.

Sent from my iPhone.

11 Tumulus11  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:38:49am
'I am talking about scientific issues.'

. Mr. Fisk is more amusing when he's apologizing for being punched out by Primitives.

12 tupac23x  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:39:36am

It would be nice if Hamid Gul were no longer of this earth.

He's just so happy with himself and the assistance he's provided to the global jihad.

13 Pullus Iulius  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:39:42am

Omigosh! He even leads with the steel-melting stupidity. Talk about leaning into the punch with your chin! Fool.

14 CyanSnowHawk  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:40:33am

WTF? Does he think that an airliner hitting the ground at almost 700mph is going to stick there, intact, like a Lawn Dart?

15 Jack Reacher  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:40:53am

Fisk presents the same troofer talking points that have been debunked time and again, and this is worthy of a column? The lefties' refusal to move on reminds me of a quote from one of the guys on the Mythbusters show: "I reject your reality, and subsitute my own."

16 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:41:13am

What took him so long?

17 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:41:35am
18 Thanos  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:41:55am
Why did flight 93’s debris spread over miles when it was supposed to have crashed in one piece in a field?

It's called INERTIA, a Latin word for a simple, real, principle of physics...

19 kjo  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:42:02am

In the words of Bugs Bunny..."What a maroon"!

20 WindHorse  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:42:15am

I am thinking this guy didn't do to well in the math and sciences portion of his schooling... what an idiot.

21 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:42:54am

Fucking Idiotic Stupid Kook

22 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:44:27am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

She's hot.

Hot enough to make up for that voice?

23 CyanSnowHawk  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:44:32am

re: #21 MandyManners

Yes. A beautiful acronym. The engineer in me bows to your resourcefulness.

24 newsjunkie_ky  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:44:34am

OT: just for giggles -- vanity plates:
[Link: www.ftlauderdalelimo.com...]

25 Infidelsalwayswin  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:44:43am

'I am talking about scientific issues'

Do you really have to embarass yourself? You're a journalist. In fact you write for the Independent which'd make you more of a propaganda writer. In any case, leave science to the scientists; the people who have the ability to understand it.
The only reason I can think of explaining this little outbreak is when the Taliban (who, naturally, were CIA operatives, disguised (as primitive, violent, bearded sub-humans), acting on the orders of their Jew-banker masters) beat the shit out of him and killed off a substantial portion of his already limited brain.

26 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:45:29am

re: #22 MandyManners

I'm guessing the correct answer to that question is "no".

27 kjo  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:46:08am

#17 Kilgore Trout

Good thing she's beautiful because she's dumb enough to have qualified for the O.J. jury.

Someday, she will live in a very big house as somebody's trophy wife.

28 socaljustice  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:46:29am

Oh brother.

It’s not just the obvious non sequiturs: where are the aircraft parts (engines, etc) from the attack on the Pentagon?

Right.

From the Independent's competitor, the Guardian, on September 12, 2001:

Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts

There was worse to come. A little before 9.30am, reports emerged that another plane had been hijacked. Within 10 minutes, a medium-sized passenger plane flew in low over Arlington and the Navy Annexe in Washington DC and plunged into the Pentagon's south-west face, throwing up a huge fireball.

Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head.

"It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane," Mr Campo said. "I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here."

Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. "There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in."

A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "It added power on its way in," he said. "The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball."

Smoke and flames poured out of a large hole punched into the side of the Pentagon. Emergency crews rushed fire engines to the scene and ambulancemen ran towards the flames holding wooden pallets to carry bodies out. A few of the lightly injured, bleeding and covered in dust, were recovering on the lawn outside, some in civilian clothes, some in uniform. A piece of twisted aircraft fuselage lay nearby. No one knew how many people had been killed, but rescue workers were finding it nearly impossible to get to people trapped inside, beaten back by the flames and falling debris.

The aircraft parts were only missing in the fevered imagination of the Thierry Meyssan's and Dylan Avery's of the world - and their ill-informed, semi-brain dead acolytes.

Unless, of course, the pro-American/Zionist/Neocon Guardian is in on the conspiracy. That must be it.

29 Americain  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:46:33am

I can only sit back in my chair and laugh at Fisk's idiotic troofer rant.

Some of the troofers I know can't accept any kind of rational thought on this. It's strange because they seem like normal, well adjusted adults otherwise.

Oh well.

30 mondoreb  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:47:17am
Meanwhile, British crackhead journalist Robert Fisk shows once again why he inspired the LGF Idiotarian of the Year Award (the “Fiskie”), with a screed in the Independent that embraces the Troofer view of reality: Robert Fisk: Even I question the ‘truth’ about 9/11.

Unspeakable, Charles!
Once again, terrible prejudice against crackheads rears it's head.

31 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:47:36am

re: #23 CyanSnowHawk

re: #21 MandyManners

Yes. A beautiful acronym. The engineer in me bows to your resourcefulness.

*giggle*

32 Northpaw  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:47:49am

Also there were quite a few plane parts recovered at the Pentagon. Why these people keep repeating that no plane parts were found there is beyond me. There were no big parts, because the plane impacted a very hard target at about 500 MPH and exploded in a massive fireball of jet fuel and kinetic energy. But lots of bits of plane were recovered there. Also there are dozens of eye witnesses who saw the plane moments before impact. There is also at least one surveillance video showing the plane just as it was about to hit (just a couple of frames though, it happened very fast obviously...)

33 Roger  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:47:52am

I don't no why it is so hard for some folks to understand things fall down and very fast when they do fall.

The troofers never are concerned about the speed of those who were forced to jump after coming to work on a beautiful, clear, innocent day. Suddenly forced to choose how they die without so much as an explanation from their murders and the murderers' associates.

34 David Simon  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:48:19am
Each time I lecture abroad on the Middle East, there is always someone in the audience – just one – whom I call the "raver".

Ever stop to think about why you attract that type to your "lectures", Fiskie? (Hint: perhaps it's because you write crap like this):

Any military which can claim – as the Americans did two days ago – that al-Qa'ida is on the run is not capable of carrying out anything on the scale of 9/11.

35 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:48:31am

re: #26 Killgore Trout

I was waiting for her to say, "Ohmygosh" any second. Valley Girl, 2007.

36 MiB  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:48:36am

OT, but I need some suggestions, guys.

Family (mom and sis) are visiting from California. I moved here (North Texas) when I turned 18 (3 years ago) and now I consider myself Texan, and they are ridiculously, stereotypically california.

So, they're here for 4 days and already shaking in their boots. "You have guns! Are you gonna kill anyone?" How do I prevent myself from answering "Yes, you!" and other things at their californian-ness?

37 bluegrass boy  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:49:09am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

she sounded like a cross between kennedy and obama...

38 mondoreb  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:49:35am

re: #11 Tumulus11

Mr. Fisk is more amusing when he's apologizing for being punched out by Primitives.

Hear, hear!

39 cookielady  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:49:39am

So, this guy is the classic mindless liberal, purposefully or brainlessly perpetrating and perpetuating lies.

I'm guessing the the 'f' in John F'ing Kerry actually stands for Fisk?

40 uncle_monkey  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:49:48am

He speaks with complete lucidity, his mind completely uncontaminated by the petty details of physics and architecture.

41 JWM  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:50:09am

He has a point on the flight 93, and Pentagon crashes. Every time the coyote falls off a cliff he leaves a perfect coyoye shaped hole in the desert floor. Why should an airliner be any different?

JWM

42 Tumulus11  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:50:53am

. I nominate Robert Fisk for the 2007 Robert Fisk Award.

43 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:50:54am

re: #28 socaljustice

"It added power on its way in,"

For some reason, that sentence made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Evil.

44 SpringheelJack  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:51:03am

It cannot seem to penetrate with these idiots that steel turns soft (too soft wo hoold up a building) LONG before it actually melts. I've done some blacksmithing -- steel is soft enough to shape with a hammer at red-hot, and is like taffy at orange-hot.

A 757 loaded with a hundred tons of flammible jet fuel is way beyond what building fire systems were designed to deal with. And the exterior steel columns would channel the collapse straight down when the central core supports gave way.

45 mondoreb  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:52:09am

re: #17 Killgore Trout


OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question
She's hot.

That was like watching a fly getting it's wings pulled off.

And she is hot!
Until she started talking.

46 realwest  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:52:45am

Sorry to go OT but storagemanager if you're still out here anywhere,you posted a truly important story on the Dead Thread at #1096 and I replied at #1099. I'd appreciate it a lot - if you have the time, if you'd respond to my #1099 on the DT today.
Thanks.

47 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:53:14am

Good morning lizards...

Has this been posted yet?

Hamas TV airs `Lion King' cartoon hero

JERUSALEM - After killing off its Mickey Mouse-lookalike, Hamas has turned to another Disneyesque character — televising a cartoon with a "Lion King" wannabe to portray the Islamic group's victory in the Gaza Strip over the Fatah movement.

The cartoon depicts Fatah members as sneaky rats, brandishing guns and being showered with U.S. dollars, while Hamas is portrayed as a confident, calm lion that resembles Simba in the 1994 Walt Disney Co. movie "The Lion King."

The five-minute video, titled "A message to the criminal gangs in the occupied West Bank," is the second production of the Hamas-run Al Aqsa TV enlisting a famous Disney character.

In May, Hamas TV used a Mickey Mouse knockoff to preach Islamic domination to children. After an uproar among Israelis and Palestinians, that character was killed off and his weekly show replaced.

Hazem Sharawi, an executive with Hamas TV, said the cartoon of the lion vanquishing the rats was broadcast Thursday but quickly pulled off the air for revisions. He said it was "flashed" for one day to counter what he called anti-Hamas propaganda coming from Fatah in the West Bank.

The cartoon also was posted on the Web site of the Middle East Media Research Institute, a Washington-based group that monitors the Arabic media.

The piece shows rats trampling over Gaza, burning houses, stepping over homes, uprooting trees, firing at mosques and desecrating the Quran, Islam's holy book.

Their leader is clearly a portrayal of Fatah's former Gaza strongman, Mohammed Dahlan, who has fled Gaza. Wearing a tie and smoking a cigar, the chief rat grabs a microphone and tells the crowd: "Move back and let Hamas shoot me." Dahlan made that comment during the showdown with Hamas, and his voice is dubbed into the scene.

Throughout the video, the lion silently watches the rats, preparing his claws and shaking his mane. When he pounces, the rats flee in terror as he knocks them about with his claws. Injured and limping rats then say: "Off to the West Bank."

After Hamas' victory in Gaza two months ago, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, a Fatah member, formed a new government in the West Bank, where many top Fatah officials in Gaza have taken refuge.

"Viewers from all over loved it. They called in to praise it," Sharawi said of the cartoon.

He said the final version will be toned down before it is broadcast again, with the Dahlan scene among those to be cut.

But he said there were no plans to erase the Lion King references, including a final scene showing the victorious lion standing on a hill overlooking Gaza with his mane flying in the wind.

"Disney stole a lion from the forest. We stole another lion," Sharawi said chuckling.

48 Thanos  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:53:26am

re: #36 MiB

OT, but I need some suggestions, guys.

Family (mom and sis) are visiting from California. I moved here (North Texas) when I turned 18 (3 years ago) and now I consider myself Texan, and they are ridiculously, stereotypically california.

So, they're here for 4 days and already shaking in their boots. "You have guns! Are you gonna kill anyone?" How do I prevent myself from answering "Yes, you!" and other things at their californian-ness?

Bah, just offer to take them out for some target practice.

49 zmdavid  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:53:40am

Fisk belongs in the Nut-Ball Box.
/Kieth Ellison

50 GGMac  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:53:52am

The more is heard from/of these troofers, the more I'm convinced that within the ranks of moonbats the higher their education, the less common sense they have.

Clearly, they expose themselves only to the incoherent, illogical ravings of their own kind.

And don't we all know that given the exact same chain of events of 9-11 and since - none of these troofers or their whacked-out theories would exist if Gore had won the 2000 election.

Simple as that. Amazing what happens to people who allow themselves to be led by loons obsessed with hating.

51 FreeIowa  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:54:39am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

She's hot.


Yes, but she's dumb as a Frisk!

52 cookielady  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:54:59am

re: #36 MiB

OT, but I need some suggestions, guys.

Family (mom and sis) are visiting from California. I moved here (North Texas) when I turned 18 (3 years ago) and now I consider myself Texan, and they are ridiculously, stereotypically california.

So, they're here for 4 days and already shaking in their boots. "You have guns! Are you gonna kill anyone?" How do I prevent myself from answering "Yes, you!" and other things at their californian-ness?

Your reply should be a gentle, reassuring statement like this:

"Only in protection of those I love, which would be you. You are in Texas now, and I fear the effects of rattlesnakes on those who do not know enough to heed the warning rattle..."

:-)

53 newsjunkie_ky  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:55:00am

re: #41 JWM

He has a point on the flight 93, and Pentagon crashes. Every time the coyote falls off a cliff he leaves a perfect coyoye shaped hole in the desert floor. Why should an airliner be any different?

JWM


Makes sense to me.
/troofer

54 JammieWearingFool  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:55:11am

This moron has impeccable timing, coming right after the History Channel demolished the Troofers.

55 grumpy old codger  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:55:36am

Forgetting or
Ignoring
Scientific
Knowledge

56 Roger  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:56:31am
57 GGMac  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:56:39am

#21 MandyManners

Perfect!

ROFLMAO:):):)

58 mondoreb  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:57:43am

re: #24 newsjunkie_ky

OT: just for giggles -- vanity plates:
[Link: [Link: www.ftlauderdalelimo.com...]...]

Got Milf
My fave.

59 Born Again Republican  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:58:15am

re: #51 FreeIowa

re: #17 Killgore Trout

OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

She's hot.


Yes, but she's dumb as a Frisk!

As she was answering the question I got the strange feeling she was thinking... "Could I find USA on a map?"

60 SpringheelJack  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:58:22am

re: #36 MiB

OT, but I need some suggestions, guys.

So, they're here for 4 days and already shaking in their boots. "You have guns! Are you gonna kill anyone?"


Just tell them "I'm not going to kill anybody who doesn't need killing. Besides, I grew up in a house with lots of sharp knives in the kitchen without stabbing anybody, didn't I"

61 CyanSnowHawk  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:58:23am

re: #48 Thanos

re: #36 MiB

OT, but I need some suggestions, guys.

Family (mom and sis) are visiting from California. I moved here (North Texas) when I turned 18 (3 years ago) and now I consider myself Texan, and they are ridiculously, stereotypically California.

So, they're here for 4 days and already shaking in their boots. "You have guns! Are you gonna kill anyone?" How do I prevent myself from answering "Yes, you!" and other things at their californian-ness?

Bah, just offer to take them out for some target practice.

But for god's sake, make sure that you have a 1to1 ratio of chaperons to gun wielding left coasters.

62 IowaInfidel  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:58:33am
Robert Fisk: Even I question the ‘truth’ about 9/11

IowaInfidel: Even I question the "sanity" of Robert Fisk

63 N. O'Brain  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:59:12am

My favorite spot of for the rich, noughety, nutty flavor of the Trooothers,

[Link: screwloosechange.blogspot.com...]

It's a great debunking site, Pat and James B. do a great job, but a site like that attracts the nuts like ants to a picnic.

Great links to use to make fun of the Trooothers, too.

64 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:59:39am

re: #44 SpringheelJack

My first career was a firefighter. On the morning of 911 watching you could see the signs of collapse about 5 minutes before the building went down. I was praying the on scene command was getting a video feed. On the intensity of the fire, the bowing of the exterior columns, the damage. I had no doubt a collapse was immanent. I however expect a collapse of the damaged, burning area and above I didn't expect the complete pancake collapse.

65 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:00:30am

re: #57 GGMac

Fun use of the "f" word on a Saturday morning.

66 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:01:01am

From the "Exception that proves the rule" Department:

Salim Mansur is one ass-kicking Mulsim. He fearlessly exposes and denounces radical Islamists--and even so-called "moderate Muslims" for their silence--week after week. On top of that he calls the lib/left media "treasonous" this week. This guy writes for a major North American daily (Toronto Sun). He is a brave man who seriously risks both a fatwa and the opprobrium and oppression of the evil enemy Left.

From today's column: Barbarians kill as West drifts:

How morally enfeebled, as Dalrymple opines, is the West? Imagine the uproar denouncing any suggestion that the mainstream liberal-left media, in appearance at least, is treasonously on side with the newest enemies of freedom and democracy.

He includes his personal email address with his articles. I imagine he gets mountains of hate-mail. A few words of encouragement from Lizards would probably be helpful for this brave soul.

67 MandyManners  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:01:21am

re: #59 Born Again Republican

People can't find the US on a map because they don't have maps?

I'm still shaking my head.

68 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:01:53am

re: #22 MandyManners

re: #17 Killgore Trout

OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

She's hot.

Hot enough to make up for that voice?

Poster child for the subject, or blondes, take your pick.

69 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:02:20am

Fisk misdirects the reader when he argues

I am talking about scientific issues. If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers – whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C – would snap through at the same time? (They collapsed in 8.1 and 10 seconds.)

that kerosene burns at this temperature while steel melts at that temperature. Nobody is saying the steel melted. Steel doesn't go from steely strength to runny red goo just like that. As it gets hotter, it weakens. Long, long before it melts, its strength dips below the design limits. Something fails. One failure triggers the next, as we have seen, yet again, with the Minneapolis bridge, and within a few seconds, the structure is gone.

Fisk may be an idiotarian, but he's not literally an idiot. He's got a good enough brain to understand the point made above. One can only conclude that he thinks his readers, well, don't.

70 Drained Brain  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:03:12am

re: #47 njdhockeyfan

Is the Easter Bunny in it? (See recent "Belgian" thread). I can't bear to look...

71 Kirly  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:03:24am
Why did flight 93’s debris spread over miles when it was supposed to have crashed in one piece in a field?

This is only confusing to those who do not understand physics! moron.

suppose an aircraft is traveling about 600 mph when the nose plows into a field. well the tail doesn't just abuptly stop and change direction to then fall straight to the earth at a 90 degree angle!

science. that dumb@$$ wouldn't know something scientific if it walked up and bit him on his dumb @$$.

kirls

72 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:03:26am

"What about the third tower – the so-called World Trade Centre Building 7 (or the Salmon Brothers Building) – which collapsed in 6.6 seconds in its own footprint at 5.20pm on 11 September?"

Ummm,, lets see. debris from two 100 PLUS buildings falls on you, you would tend to collapse in YOUR own footprint also!

Where the hell ELSE would you collapse, 7 blocks AWAY !?!?!

73 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:03:35am

re: #69 lostlakehiker

Very astute point, it moves him from the idiot category to enemy category.

74 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:04:14am

Has Fisk explained the bridge that collapsed in California when a tanker burned underneath it and melted the steel?

75 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:05:55am

re: #74 njdhockeyfan

Has Fisk explained the bridge that collapsed in California when a tanker burned underneath it and melted the steel?

It was a Rovian operation to obfuscate the issue.

76 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:05:59am

re: #74 njdhockeyfan

Has Fisk explained the bridge that collapsed in California when a tanker burned underneath it and melted the steel?

Now Now Now, NJD. We all know steel does not melt ! Rosie O' COWell told me so on the VIEW one day. I saw it myself !

77 Perplexed  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:07:13am
If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers – whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C – would snap through at the same time?

Stupid twit. Does he suppose that blacksmiths work with molten metal? Sorry, but iron/steel begins to soften (read that as loses mechanical strength) the hotter it gets which then enables a blacksmith to hammer out a hot bar of metal. I've seen a guy heat a piece of steel to yellow hot with a cutting torch. He grabbed it with a pair of pliers and twisted it off. I wish that some of these so called intellectuals would have at least some passing familiarity with properties of the things around them, but instead they show their lack of knowledge by parroting what they want reality to be, not what it actually is.

78 Capt_Faust  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:07:21am
where are the aircraft parts (engines, etc) from the attack on the Pentagon?

Well I guess that this wonder of the West has never heard of...

The Laws of Physics...

Take one fully loaded (passengers, crew, luggage, assorted foodstuff), fully fueled, mesh of steel aluminum rubber etc...

Send it flying in the air at 300-400 miles an hour...

Take a series of concrete reinforced walls of a proverbial military fort (recently upgraded for modern times)...

combine the two...

See what happens with the wreckage after assorted fires and crushing of the surviving pieces after structural collapse of tons building material.


/ Idiot...

79 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:07:39am

The bottom line is that Fisk is self-repudiating. Any government nefarious and cunning enough to pull off such a staggeringly complex and sinister plot against its own people would have more than enough wherewithal and motive to "disappear" robert Fisk and thousands of his ilk. Which would be the ONE redeeming feature of an actual "Amerikkka".

80 MiB  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:09:07am

Hahaha! Thanks guys. All good suggestions.

I'm off to TEXAS Land and Cattle now, for a delicious lunch.

Take care, stay green.

81 Spiny Norman  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:10:31am

re: #71 Kirly

Why did flight 93’s debris spread over miles when it was supposed to have crashed in one piece in a field?
This is only confusing to those who do not understand physics! moron.

suppose an aircraft is traveling about 600 mph when the nose plows into a field. well the tail doesn't just abuptly stop and change direction to then fall straight to the earth at a 90 degree angle!

science. that dumb@$$ wouldn't know something scientific if it walked up and bit him on his dumb @$$.

kirls

As anyone who saw the Hiustory Channel eviceration of the Troofers well knows, there was only a very small amount of debris found in a lake less than TWO miles away. The "6 miles" myth came about when the Troofers used MapQuest to plot the route from the Shakesville crash site to the lake, which followed the roads, in a roundabout fashion, giving the "6 miles" driving distance.

Fiskie really is an idiot.

83 Perplexed  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:12:36am

re: #36 MiB

OT, but I need some suggestions, guys.

Family (mom and sis) are visiting from California. I moved here (North Texas) when I turned 18 (3 years ago) and now I consider myself Texan, and they are ridiculously, stereotypically california.

So, they're here for 4 days and already shaking in their boots. "You have guns! Are you gonna kill anyone?" How do I prevent myself from answering "Yes, you!" and other things at their californian-ness?

Have you told them about the killer armadillos, found only in far west Texas? They travel in packs and have been known to strip a stranded motorist to the bone in less than 30 seconds.

When you go out and about point out to them all of the other Texans who openly carry and aren't killing anyone. Especially point out the women who are carrying. Tell them that a well armed populace is a polite populace.

84 Desert Dog  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:12:42am

re: #77 Perplexed

If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers – whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C – would snap through at the same time?

Stupid twit. Does he suppose that blacksmiths work with molten metal? Sorry, but iron/steel begins to soften (read that as loses mechanical strength) the hotter it gets which then enables a blacksmith to hammer out a hot bar of metal. I've seen a guy heat a piece of steel to yellow hot with a cutting torch. He grabbed it with a pair of pliers and twisted it off. I wish that some of these so called intellectuals would have at least some passing familiarity with properties of the things around them, but instead they show their lack of knowledge by parroting what they want reality to be, not what it actually is.

You could apply that statement to ANY dearly held belief the Libs have...

85 Born Again Republican  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:13:03am

re: #67 MandyManners

re: #59 Born Again Republican

People can't find the US on a map because they don't have maps?

I'm still shaking my head.

Let's give the kid a break. I'm sure she had an attack of nerves and at the end of the day sat with her head in her hands in utter disbelief she could say such something so dumb. Let's hope :)

86 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:13:14am

re: #81 Spiny Norman

You don't happen to know when the History Channel is re-running that show, do you?

87 Onslow  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:13:22am

Fisk is barking mad.

88 Kirly  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:13:30am

re: #35 MandyManners

re: #26 Killgore Trout

I was waiting for her to say, "Ohmygosh" any second.

ohmygosh! i resemble that remark!

LOL

89 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:14:32am

re: #85 Born Again Republican

re: #67 MandyManners


re: #59 Born Again Republican

People can't find the US on a map because they don't have maps?

I'm still shaking my head.


Let's give the kid a break. I'm sure she had an attack of nerves and at the end of the day sat with her head in her hands in utter disbelief she could say such something so dumb. Let's hope :)


Actually, I'll bet at the end of the day she sat and said "didn't my hair and dress look AWESOME! "

90 Kirly  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:21:34am

re: #47 njdhockeyfan

once again proving that they can't even invent a cartoon character of their own!

91 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:22:37am

re: #89 sattv4u2

re: #85 Born Again Republican

re: #67 MandyManners


re: #59 Born Again RepublicanPeople can't find the US on a map because they don't have maps?

I'm still shaking my head.


Let's give the kid a break. I'm sure she had an attack of nerves and at the end of the day sat with her head in her hands in utter disbelief she could say such something so dumb. Let's hope :)


Actually, I'll bet at the end of the day she sat and said "didn't my hair and dress look AWESOME! "

Proof positive that pageants are not about "a well rounded" person. Other wise she would have lost the very first one she was in.

92 Kirly  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:23:12am

re: #52 cookielady

re: #36 MiB


OT, but I need some suggestions, guys.

Family (mom and sis) are visiting from California. I moved here (North Texas) when I turned 18 (3 years ago) and now I consider myself Texan, and they are ridiculously, stereotypically california.

So, they're here for 4 days and already shaking in their boots. "You have guns! Are you gonna kill anyone?" How do I prevent myself from answering "Yes, you!" and other things at their californian-ness?


Your reply should be a gentle, reassuring statement like this:

"Only in protection of those I love, which would be you. You are in Texas now, and I fear the effects of rattlesnakes on those who do not know enough to heed the warning rattle..."

:-)

oh, that is goood! :-)
i'm going to remember this if ever in a similar situation.

93 pat  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:23:32am

"(They collapsed in 8.1 and 10 seconds."
I guess it only seemed like an hour and a half.

94 dogbreath  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:23:43am

How to respond to stupidity as willful and determined as the Troofers? Here’s my small bit: Using only wood as fuel, people have been able for hundreds, thousands, of years to smelt metals and manufacture very high quality steel. Not possible, obviously, since wood burns at much too low a temperature. History must be a narrative of lies. There are no Japanese steel swords, no Greek bronzes.

95 AW  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:23:54am

If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers – whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C – would snap through at the same time?

I'm not an engineer, but I think that the 747 crashing into said steel beams at 500 mp/h could have played a small part in their collapse...

96 Hooray for Captain Spaulding  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:25:17am

re: #36 MiB

Um ... nope, youre on your own

97 pat  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:26:07am

re: #91 jcm

Proof positive that pageants are not about "a well rounded" person. Other wise she would have lost the very first one she was
in.

Pagents are about persons well rounded.

98 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:26:55am

I'm an architect and I'm qualified to say this:

Fisk you fucking idiot.

Steel softens and bends. It is ductile. It doesn't snap.

Large things fall straight down because the larger something is the more gravity controls it.

WTC 7 was on fire too.

I could go on, asshole.

Why don't you STFU.

(sorry about the profanity to everyone else.)

99 beens21  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:29:36am

[Link: www.rcfp.org...] read everything on this site,Fisk, including pictures of airplane parts at the Pentagon, and you might get a raging clue.

100 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:30:06am

re: #95 AW

It was a 767 (767-200ER to be exact, I am a plane geek), but you are correct. The amount of energy released in the impact and fire it's a testament to the engineering they stood as long as they did.

101 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:31:03am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

She's hot.

Saw a few minutes of the show, lots of hot young girls in bikinis running on and off the stage, I done missed the part where they told us how to fix the education system and achieve whirled peas.

102 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:31:06am

re: #100 jcm

Yes and God bless the engineers, because they stood long enough for most people to get out.

103 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:31:14am

re: #97 pat

re: #91 jcm

Proof positive that pageants are not about "a well rounded" person. Other wise she would have lost the very first one she was
in.

Pagents are about persons well rounded.

All those curves and me with no brakes.

104 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:31:53am

...

105 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:33:03am

re: #104 sattv4u2

That is good summary of Fisk's intelligence.

106 Lauraf  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:33:30am

re: #18 Thanos

Yeah, it's like the shards from a dropped glass all sit in a nice little heap exactly where you dropped in on the floor. Duh. I wonder if this is a sign of desperation on the Fiskie left's part? Why else would he tread into such lunatic terrain?

107 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:33:42am

re: #98 Ojoe

I'm an architect and I'm qualified to say this:

Fisk you fucking idiot.

Steel softens and bends. It is ductile. It doesn't snap.

Large things fall straight down because the larger something is the more gravity controls it.

WTC 7 was on fire too.

I could go on, asshole.

Why don't you STFU.

(sorry about the profanity to everyone else.)

No problem, Thats the part I liked the BEST

108 grumpy old codger  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:34:47am

re: #98 Ojoe

Au contraire. Your restraint in dealing with this idiot is commendable.

109 jcm  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:37:39am

re: #98 Ojoe

These things provoke one so. Since we are too restrained to go to Fisk's office and beat him on the head with books on physics, material science, architecture until he learns, as is incapable of learning by reading, understanding and application of knowledge. We are left with a few well chosen epithets.

110 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:37:40am

Charles -

You may just have a point on the "Crackhead" thing. Massive ingestion of cocaine over prolonged periods DOES seem to cause paranoia. In my time I've known enough of "them." You know they are over the edge and perhaps "jonesing" when they pull down the curtains, then pick them up at the bottom edge to see if Police are outside. Sounds like FISK might be at that point.

-S-

111 Lauraf  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:38:18am

re: #28 socaljustice

Oh brother.


It’s not just the obvious non sequiturs: where are the aircraft parts (engines, etc) from the attack on the Pentagon?

Right.

From the Independent's competitor, the Guardian, on September 12, 2001:


Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts


snipped quote

The aircraft parts were only missing in the fevered imagination of the Thierry Meyssan's and Dylan Avery's of the world - and their ill-informed, semi-brain dead acolytes.

Unless, of course, the pro-American/Zionist/Neocon Guardian is in on the conspiracy. That must be it.

Not only that, the website with the evidence used in the Moussaoui trial has photographs of airplane wreckage - including seats with burned bodies and body fragments - from inside the Pentagon.

Oh, that's right. Those are faked photos.

112 grumpy old codger  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:38:24am

re: #89 sattv4u2

Induction of temporary stupidity, most probably caused by hydrogen peroxide fumes being inhaled.

113 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:38:26am

re: #69 lostlakehiker

Fisk may be an idiotarian, but he's not literally an idiot. He's got a good enough brain to understand the point made above. One can only conclude that he thinks his readers, well, don't.

He has just a good enough brain to talk himself into utter nonsense, and then patronizes anyone who refuses to follow his ridiculous twists as "not understanding". He's not literally an idiot, he's literally a paranoid schizophrenic, lost in his own little la-la land.

114 Roger  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:38:31am

More important than melting point of steel is the yield point as a function of temperature.

Also mixed materials are a different problem than just kerosene and steel.

115 pat  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:39:14am

Ojoe, it may not be about science at all. It may be about a shared delusion.

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

116 pat  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:41:37am

Kerosene=Jet fuel=air vectored combustion=turbo fan=blow torch.

117 just another four-letter word  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:42:05am

Geez, maybe it's me, but if *I* were to be asked the question, I would have looked at the questioner and said, "Because a fifth of the kids are uneducated, you moron! Let's fix the school system in this country!"

...but this is why I'll never be a contestant in a beauty contest. No beauty, and too smart to participate in one!

JAFLW

118 simonml  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:42:24am

Also, what about the rabbit cage with all the newspaper and kerosene that burned but didn't fall? PROOF!

119 NoSubmission  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:45:01am

These idiots have no idea how much their nonsense hurts the loved ones of people who died that day. It just blows my mind. They just don't care.

No matter how many times I hear it, it still hits me the same way in the same spot and then it makes me angry.

120 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:51:38am

Troofers fail to take into account:

Other buildings have collapsed straight down without having the help of a jet crashing into them and thousands of gallons of burning kerosene. Google "building collapse shear" and ignore all the troofer sites.

Kerosene was not the only burning material in the building. While the steel did not need to melt to fail, other inflammables may have been burning hotter than the steel's melting point. But this is conjecture, not proof. The heat from burning kerosene ought to be enough to explain the failure.

121 armaros  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 9:59:51am

This is what happens when you spend too much time among lunatic Arabs most of your career. You start to internalize their madness.

It is like when one works at the fish market and with time fails to realize he stinks.

BTW...I liked the way he disclaims his assertions by ...I m not a conspiracy correspondent etc etc.

122 Friend of USA  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:04:54am

I know I am beating a dead liberal but here I go anyway,

First,

An F4 Phantom has armored plates to resist 50 caliber shots in certain parts of the fuselage and is way WAY more sturdy than a passenger airplane which is built for fuel economy and not for combat/dog fights,

and still the F4 is completely turned to dust when it hits a concrete building at the same speed the passenger airplanes hit on 9/11.

Second,

The steel beam did not melt in the WTC, the bolts and nuts holding the steel beams together snapped because of extreme heat and extreme tensions.


Third ,

Europeans can not point Montana or Texas on a map ( and those states are bigger and/or more populated than some European countries or better yet, their economy is bigger than some european countries!),
this was part of a report on CBS a couple years ago .

People love to magnify any flaws Americans may have but ignorance and stupidity are universal,
I know,
I'm a Canadian who lives in the french speaking province of Quebec.

123 ghost ryder  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:07:52am

So at what point does Occam's razor kick in for these idiots troofers?

Possibility #1 - Thousands of people involved in a massive conspiracy yet no one has come forward with evidence, explosives were planted in the WTC weeks in advance, and Bush/Cheney are evil geniuses trying to drive us to war in the middle east to capture oil reserves and fatten up their corporate friends.

Possibility #2 - The Jooos did it, aided by BusHitler and Co.

Possibility #3 - Death loving, US hating terrorists execute a massive terrorist act against the US, aided by our lax (at the time) airline and border security.

Hmmm...

124 Areopagitica  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:12:25am

Where are the airplane engines? Fisk you dumbass, didn't you see the footage from CNN of a crumpled jet engine that was found a couple of blocks from the WTC right after the attack? It came from one of the aircraft that hit the WTC, it wasn't placed there by the government.

Can we give this guy a dunce cap?

125 mrsoc  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:14:44am

re: #22 MandyManners

re: #17 Killgore Trout

OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

She's hot.

Hot enough to make up for that voice?

Granted the voice is bad-but Lord can we buy her a brain? Where do we get these people? The schools alone cannot be to blame-it must have been Chernobyl or something. (My son used to blame everything that went wrong on "The Comet" any comet would do.)

"I just wanna be a like, a brain surgeon or a flight attendant. Cause I wannna save the world and the whales and the kittens."

Oy.

126 Roger  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:16:48am

re: #122 Friend of USA

And there is a video link to the F4 at #56 for anyone curious to see what happens when tough objects slam together at 500 mph.

127 kevinmumaw  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:19:30am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

She's hot.

Wow. A simple "we stopped teaching geography in school" would have sufficed. I still don't know what she was trying to say. Good thing she is hot or she would be doomed.

128 Nascar70  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:24:55am

what a total nutcase

129 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:27:19am

The USAir 427 crash, Sept. 8,1994, had lots of non-experts wondering where all the wreckage was too.

130 BigPapa  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:28:46am

What a moron. You don't have to be an engineer to understand basic engineering principles, yet some can't even understand basic engineering principles.

Roughly speaking, steel loses half it's strength at half it's melting point, of which jet fuel is more than capable of achieving when burning. Compound that with impact damage from the plane, and the other combustibles that fed the fire. If you look at news footage of the collapses, they started at the impact zone of the planes.

WTC7 was significantly damaged from the collapse of one of the Towers. It had burned vigorously for several hours before hand with no firefighting efforts expended.

131 RedBeard  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:31:01am

I enjoy watching idiot leftists putting their idiocy on public display, as Fisk has done here. Perhaps Fiskie saw this DU demo:

[Link: www.democraticunderground.com...]

Fisk: "Science? I don' got no science. I don' need no science. I don' haf to show you no stinking science!"

132 kevinmumaw  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:31:44am

re: #125 mrsoc

As usual, The Vandals have a song for every thing important in life, and this one pretty much sums up Miss Teen 2007, South Carolina.

(But Then) She Spoke

There she stood - she was a vision - a picture of perfection - so I made the big decision - I'm going to talk to her - I have to show to her it could be magic - and I got the nerve up - So went over there - she was a goddess - I had to show to her I could be her Adonis - At first sight I knew she was my destiny - The first time the feeling has come over me - Intimidation, feared rejection - I need to make a love connection - then the unexpected had occurred - and then it happened - and she spoke - and it all just went to hell - her personality quickly broke the spell - so disillusioned - and I came to the conclusion - she was garbage wrapped in loveliness - leaving me so unimpressed - If she don't shut up - I'm gonna throw up - all over her shoes - How could it be? - That such a goddess would ever talk to me - and make me nauseous - All the things she said - just echoed in my head - I thought she was an angle, - but it was all just misread - Every word was terrible, - and made it more unbearable - and made me have to leave the f-ing room - and it's all because she spoke - tortured by her words - such a pretty shithead - that I wished I never heard - Perfect on the outside - but fucked on the in - how can god be so cruel? - it's got to be a sin - I had to plug my ears, - until she disappears - so I can cry - Waahh! - and it's all because she spoke - it all just went to hell - her personality quickly broke the spell - so disillusioned - that I came to the conclusion - she was garbage wrapped in loveliness - leaving me so unimpressed - I was destined to learn my lesson - and I learned it well - Never think she's perfect till you talk to her first - Never fall in love till you go through her purse - Never think she's perfect till you talk to her first - And I should know

133 wanumba  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:37:47am

1) Fisk is the only person in the media who hasn't read Popular Mechanics debunk of all the stupidities. Popular Mechanics had it in their magazine, in a published BOOK and a face-to-face debate with the two No. 1 Troofers themselves. How hard is it? It was written in clear ENGLISH and explained the PHYSICS of it, plus the deceptive claims that a title such as The American National Institute of Standards and Technology isn't the right institution to professionally weigh in on the dynamics of a major structural and fire becuase it's out of their expertise, plus plus plus - everything! PM ran videos showing that the Troofers rely on hysterical uninformed reporting by newcasters who didn't know what was going on, who were just filling airtime gaps with their chatter. The classic example of this is the infodude looking into the camera and blabbing on about what could have caused the WT-1 to explode, when all the viewers suddenly in the distance behind him, claerly see a plane driving right into the WT-2. The newsguy blinks, turns around and sees the tower erupt in smoke and then wonders out loud if there was another bomb. The Troofers omit that the newsguy was talking a different line after his camera crew reran the tape to show him what had happened behind his back.
By all this Fisk admits he doesn't keep up with the news. ANY news.
2) We all know now why Fisk didn't take science as a major in school. He obviously doesn't have the mind for it.
3) Never really noticed this before, and this is obviously conjecture, but Fisk's dramatic little wrapped up head after his apparent beating shows very little evidence of swelling or bruising. Was that photo taken a day or two afterwards? To allow swelling to subside?
Just wondering. Can't confirm anything now, so many years later, but it's hard to escape any facial injuries without any swelling and bruising.

134 BigPapa  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:39:15am

re: #131 RedBeard

Saw that before, what a hoot.

136 Kohenan The Barbarian  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:57:57am

A good example of --Whenever the Left have exhausted all avenues of finger pointing with little to show for their energy expended-- they always have the ultimate weapon that can never be totally refuted nor absolutely discounted unless explained by an equally deranged psychotic paranoid antagonist---it's the best way to garner media attention when you have blown your load and it turns out to be a dud--just blame the Jews or the U.S. Govt or both depending on the perks intended--empty media vessels always produce more noise!

137 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 10:59:38am
where are the aircraft parts (engines, etc) from the attack on the Pentagon?

Well, after 10 seconds of Googling, they're right here, aircraft parts, human remains, everything you need to know.

So STFU!

/God, these morons get even more annoying as time goes on

138 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:01:42am

I think it had to be "an inside job", a conspiracy. After all, look at the thousands of engineers and architects that have come forward and denounced the official explanations as unworkable and wrong. Look at the one or two architects and engineers that still believe "airplanes" caused the WTC's collapse.

What do you mean I have the information backwards? I'll have you know I got this information from youtube.com™. So there.

139 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:04:24am

they're right here

/top of page link

140 kevinmumaw  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:05:17am

re: #115 pat

Ojoe, it may not be about science at all. It may be about a shared delusion.

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

Excellent article.

141 teh dinj  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:05:42am

I like that it is the "so-called World Trade 7" building. He even has to sneer at the name of a building, that's how sweet he is.

142 Tinker  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:06:03am

Fiskie, Bubba!

Usually, structural designers will calculate the amount of force (say, "X" pounds) that will be exerted onto a steel column at room temperature. The designer then design the steel column so that it would take a load of "3X" pounds at room temperature as a safety factor. They then add insulation to the columns to protect them in a fire for enough time to allow evacuation and to squelch the fire before the fire weakens the steel column strength down to less than "X" pounds which would result in column failure.

The WTC planes wiped out some number of columns, thereby redistributing the total loads onto the columns. So the increased loads start to shift the column loads towards the failure level of "3X" (say, 1.5X - 2.0X).

The planes also wiped off the insulation on many the surviving columns. As the place heated up, the failure level began to drop below the "3X" safety level as the steel weakened. The strength of the steel starts dropping: first 2.9X, then 2.8X, and then gradually towards the 1.5X - 2.0X or less failure point.

Another complicating factor - once you take out interior columns, the interior of the building sags. This likely put moment stresses on the surviving exterior column connections, thereby twisting them and adding additional failure loads to the surviving columns. The columns weren't designed for this stress. Those moment loads have the effect of weakening the columns further, forcing the outer columns to twist in towards the center of the building at the top of the columns and to force the bottom of the columns out towards the exterior.

Result - columns that fail.

As for the towers not falling over rather than down, imagine the Amazing Fisky Mental Acrobats in action. Take the famous 10 Densest Fiskies, and position them in a square, 4 on a side, holding hands tightly. Then on top of the Densest Fiskies, add a layer of the Lighter Weight Fiskies, same arrangement. Continue until your have the 9 Lightest Weight Fiskies, plus yourself, on top.

Then have Fisky Layer 6 collapse together near simultaneously and fall down onto Fisky Layer 5. All the Fiskies above Fisky Layer 6 will find the supports beneath their feet will just drop away. They won't fall over - nothing's pushing them to the side. They'll just fall straight down in free-fall for a split second. Until Layer 6 hits layer 5 and pauses, and then the upper Layers collapse onto Layer 6. Layer 5 might hold up for a split second, but then will then be crushed by the impact loads of the upper Layers once they land on Layer 6. And so on. The upper Lighter and Lightest Weight Fiskies will just fall straight down (remember, they're all holding hands) as a block until all the Densest and Lighter Weight Fiskies below end up in a very messy heap. And then the lowest Lighter Weight Fiskies will hit the mess at the bottom and begin to collapse bottom Layer by bottom Layer until even the Lightest Weight Fiskies end up in a pile of Amazing Fiskie Mental Acrobats.

Try it, Bubba, and let us know when so we can watch.

143 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:10:19am

Yes -- 9/11 was a "narrative"

144 FrogMarch  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:10:39am

Fisk this.

145 Highrise  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:11:25am

I can't stand people who are troofers and are partial troofers (the ones that say we brought on 9/11 with our policies).

They seem to be so self serving...and I picture them walking around with a whip beating themselves to release their guilt for who they are and where they come from.

Have some pride wimps.

146 Jimmah  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:23:31am

He should ask himself how long he thinks it took for the 'spooks' or whatever to scatter the big bits of plane wreckage, engines etc that WERE recovered from the pentagon, given that no plane went near it, and why nobody noticed the big vans driving up and unloading that shit.

Fisk is a fucking, fucking, fucking, MORON.

And this no doubt signals the Independent's (always on the lookout for ways to distinguish themselves as noticeably stupider than anything else in the market) imminent incarnation as the Paper of Troof.

GAAAH!

147 baconeatingkaffir  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:24:41am

I can't deal with Troofers and Michael Moore Miracles. I had to sit for 3 hours a few nights ago and listen to my brother-in-law and wife talk about how "mysterious" it was taht the twin towers came straight down and that someone "in the basement" heard explosions way before the jets hit. I had to drink a double shot of whiskey to keep from creating a major family incident. My brother-in-law is Turkish but lives in Germany. Between the medias of both nations there's no hope! He still believes that the CIA did it. *spew*

148 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:37:04am

re: #131 RedBeard

re: #147 baconeatingkaffir

You have my sympathy.
I spent the last week listening to a coworker "explain" how the US Constitution is wrong to not let the popular vote determine the outcome of elections. I tried to explain how a republic works... .

149 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:44:04am

re: #131 RedBeard

That's quite an elaborate experiment to prove nothing. His experiment only appears to approximate the WTC conditions.

150 Aloysius  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:45:05am

#147 baconeatingkaffir 8/25/2007 11:24:41 am reply quote report

I can't deal with Troofers and Michael Moore Miracles. I had to sit for 3 hours a few nights ago and listen to my brother-in-law and wife talk about how "mysterious" it was taht the twin towers came straight down and that someone "in the basement" heard explosions way before the jets hit. I had to drink a double shot of whiskey to keep from creating a major family incident.

Congratulations for keeping peace in the family but if I were in your position, there would have been a major family incident.

151 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:45:11am

The probable chain of failures here:

1. Mohammad lisrtens to the devil
2.Bill clinton is elected
3.Too many Saudi nationals are let into the country
4.Planes hijacked
5.Planes flown into towers
6.Fires and impact take out the floor diaphragms because the steel bar joists which are light-section, fail by softening
7.exterior columns lose lateral connection to the floors and become relatively too slender
8.The exterior columns buckle (they would even do this at room temperature)
9. All the floors above the buckle zone drop down and crush everything beneath.

152 AZfederalist  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:50:16am

Fisk, idiot

Redundant

153 Call me infidel  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 11:59:03am

re: #11 Tumulus11

'I am talking about scientific issues.'

. Mr. Fisk is more amusing when he's apologizing for being punched out by Primitives.

Funny you should say that because people like Fisk need to be punched out when they come out with this bunkum. I am a bit of a primitive myself! Or alternatively horse whipped naked through the streets as a lesson to all stupid people.

154 grumpy old codger  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 12:03:45pm

Maybe we should just round up every Cristian and Jew and torture them (Libya style), until thr trooof comes out. Betcha CAIR would go for it.

155 rockman  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 12:20:36pm

Fisk is an Uber Moonbat, a moonbat's moonbat. His scientific credentials rival those of Dr. Rosie O'Donnell, who also is also deeply troubled by the government's version of the events of 9-11. They would both benefit from a field trip to a blacksmiths shop, where they could see a man heat iron or steel to red hot or beyond and bend it into whatever shape they want with no melting involved. IDIOTS.

156 Hooray for Captain Spaulding  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 12:30:40pm

re: #98 Ojoe

If there was Karma to give you, I'd give some.

157 nmdesertrat  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 12:59:59pm

From NIST (automatically discounted by all troofers), look at slide 12, showing the yield & tensile strength of structural steel vs temperature.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/June2004AnalysisofStructu ralSteel.pdf
Scientific evidence of why steel does not need to melt first. Someone above also noted the SF gasoline tanker fire that collapsed a two-level freeway.

158 Hookecho  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 1:09:31pm

Fisk you are an idiot. The steel columns were not the cause of the collapse, as described above, there were many columns and horizontal beams compromised by the impact of a fully loaded commercial aircraft. If it was going to be a simple collapse due to a weakened structure, it would have happened immediately, and this is perhaps what the planners of the attack were aiming for. Add in several 1000 lbs of jet fuel in a uncontrolled fire across multiple floors in areas where the spray on fire protection is designed for a fire to start from within the building (i.e. not a crashing impact of something as large as a 767 that stripped said fire protection off the steel) and you have a problem. Everyone thinks in terms of beams and columns in terms of a building. What people forget or dont know about is the concrete floor pans.

I work for a structural engineering firm, I am a CAD tech that has worked as a draftsman for over 15 years in this industry. Modern high rise construction is built in a donut type of construction. The center (or hole in the donut) is the elevator and mechanical shafts in the center of the building. The exterior of the towers were load bearing panels to handle wind loading and add rigidity to the structure. You have beams that transfer that load from the exterior to the central shaft with beams allowing for a uniform load laterally, and columns for vertical loading. The exterior panels also provided vertical load support, as they were designed to provide load bearing in the vertical as well. and on the floors where the aircraft impacted, these parts of the structure were very much compromised. Again if it was a simple problem of structural damage from impact, the towers would have collapsed at impact, but because of the structures actual mass as apposed to the aircraft that impacted it, they still stood. The engineering worked as designed.

What started the collapse was the fire. Yes the columns and beams and exterior load bearing panels were compromised it was the fire, massive and covering the entire floor instantly, not spreading from a small area across the floor over time, and burning way above design that caused the collapse, but not at the beams, or columns. It STARTED at the connection of the concrete floor pans to the horizontal floor beams. While the connections of the beams to columns are rather massive the floor pans are not. I have not re-read the engineering report, but IIRC the floor pan connection plates and angles were 3/8" steel weled to the beams and the metal deck. 4" to 6" of concrete is poured onto the metal deck and this forms the floor. It was the failure of these connection plates and angles that allowed sections of the concrete floor pans to pancake down on the level below, thus effectively doubling the load on the lower pan along with the impact shock of the pan landing on the next one below. Once this process starts, there is not stopping it because with every collapse of a floor pan to the level below take the dead load way beyond the deign dead load of that section. Pans start collapsing and pretty soon entire sections of the floor is coming down on the next and gravity takes over and soon there is no way to support the increasing load above and the structure begins to come down. Close examination of the collapse shows that the collapse starts several floors below the impact floors. You can hear the pans collapsing and paired with the video, there can be no doubt, The floor pans failed and thus brought the entire building down. Because the pans collapse downward, there is no lateral force on the structure, thus the building came straight down, not off to one side because once the floor pans pancake, the loads on the underlaying floors increases exponentially and this increases the speed of the inernal collapse, and once the weight overcomes the structure, the catastrophic collapse begins and at that point only an act of God will stop it.

So, you are one more example of the media not doing your homework and letting emoton guide you.

159 voluble  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 1:26:02pm

When a columnist writes something this poorly researched and this ridiculous then why do they get to keep their jobs? Any other profession would have the guy sacked for incompetence and he would be lucky if he got to empty out his desk before the security guards escorted him out. It has nothing to do with freedom of expression but rather certain minimum standards of research, intellect and temperament.

160 Ledger1  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 1:33:32pm

Fisk is an asshat.

161 jeremy1013  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 1:35:33pm

I had a roomate who had a similar experience. He was walking on K Street in downtown DC, and this girl with dreds gave him a flyer, and he handed it back to her and said I think you should probably save this for someone who will actually read it. She paused, and said, "You work for Dick Cheney, don't you?" He told her that he worked in a non-profit that focuses on development of third world nations and peoples (which was true).

She followed him for almost two blocks, screaming at the back of his head.

162 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 1:39:31pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

OT: Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question

She's hot.

Pretty girl.
Unfortunately, dumb as a box of hammers.

That sounded like a stream-of-(un)consciousness chain of randomly selected words very loosely connected with one or more of the preceeding words.

163 Shay4l  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 2:00:09pm

re: #36 MiB

OT, but I need some suggestions, guys.

Family (mom and sis) are visiting from California. I moved here (North Texas) when I turned 18 (3 years ago) and now I consider myself Texan, and they are ridiculously, stereotypically california.

So, they're here for 4 days and already shaking in their boots. "You have guns! Are you gonna kill anyone?" How do I prevent myself from answering "Yes, you!" and other things at their californian-ness?

Lock your guns in your gun cabinet and refuse to give them the key. Also, make them sit on the deck in the 100 degree weather until they are too spent to argue. Finally, feed them "the best margueritas in Texas!"

164 opnion  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 2:29:08pm

He did everything but claim that it is very suspicious that the passengers
on the United Flight that crashed in PA are not talking

165 cosmo  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 3:21:52pm

In my expert and mature opinion, I submit that Fisk is a butt-nugget.

166 stvip  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 3:26:50pm

re: #98 Ojoe

Large things fall straight down because the larger something is the more gravity controls it.

That one isn't right.

167 lance  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 3:39:50pm
I am talking about scientific issues. If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers – whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C – would snap through at the same time?

GahhhH! I cannot believe that almost 6 years later assertions like that can still exist, in the light of all the experts (real experts, the kind with actual degrees on their walls) screaming again and again that steel doesn't need to melt to fail...and steel doesn't have a melting point; it's got a solidus and liquidus, which is a whole other issue. Man, and the left says we're the sheep for believing that maybe, according to the laws of physics, a steel beam loses half it's strength at 700°C. There are an insane number of gullible people out there.

/going to get a stiff drink...

168 Lorenska  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 3:40:19pm

I know this is petty in comparison to the enormity of the rest of his stupidity, but SALMON Brothers? Was it a fish factory? Guess it's kind of like a perfect microcosm of the way his brain works.

169 Captain Hate  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 3:50:27pm

re: #133 wanumba

1) Fisk is the only person in the media who hasn't read Popular Mechanics debunk of all the stupidities.

Fisk combines stupidity with laziness; I don't think he's atypical in the MSM.

170 baconeatingkaffir  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 4:56:42pm

I dont know. I"m all about creative new troof. How about the military was trying out a new "death ray" and it managed to shoot down two different airliners and the twin towers ? Sheesh, where do people get this stuff from? I'm still sort of reeling from my Turkish students who swear that "No jews were in the wtc on the day the planes hit because the Mossad told them not to come"... and my nice but media brainwashed brother in law who is convinced that the CIA did it.

171 HogsBreath  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 5:38:02pm

re: #167 lance

Not to be smug, Lance, but low alloy steel, the stuff covered under ASTM's standard A 36 that covers the steel thats used in structural members, starts loosing its strength big time at around 650 F. WTCs 1 and 2 were both tubular structures - a vertical tube (the exterrior wall) surrounding a tube (the internal elevator shafts) with the floors hanging between them. When you look at a typical building, you see a curtain wall on the outside that has absolutely nothing to do with holding the structure up. There's a big honeycomb of structure holding things up. When you looked at WTC 1 and 2, you were seeing the outside tubular structure. As the members that held up what the floor above what ever floor the savages flew into heated up, lets say it was 80, for the sake of this shoot from the hip posting, the structural members started weakening, when the structure under 81 got so soft that it it let 81 fall onto 80, 80's strain went up two-fold. Then 82 started weakining and it fell onto 80. 80 couldn't take it any more and fell onto 79. 79 couldn't take the weight of the 3 or 4 floors that were now resting on its structure, so it cried uncle and landed on 78 . . . and the building imploded . . .

The structures were designed to fail the way they did. Fault? The building's designer? HELL NO! The "Little Eichman's that worked there? HELL NO! The medieval savages that boarded airplanes that they couldn't in a million years design and build themselves? Uh, well, yes.

172 Digger Dan  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 6:21:28pm

Perhaps the troofers were consulting a Boy Scout kerosene lantern manual, but I don't know where they get the figure of 820C for the temperature of burning jet fuel. Troofers have probably never seen how an afterburner transforms mere kerosene into unbelievably wicked screaming energy. It's fairly easy to find in Wikipedia: the peak temperature inside a jet engine can reach 3500K (5841F or 3227C). This temperature is reached by combusting simple kerosene and plenty of air. That's why jet engines can't be made of steel - they'd self destruct (i.e. melt) as soon as they lit the fire.

173 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 7:13:50pm

re: #171 HogsBreath

I love A 36 steel.

174 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 7:14:45pm

re: #172 Digger Dan

That temperature is from burning at more than atmospheric pressure though.

175 Daisy  Sat, Aug 25, 2007 8:39:49pm

"What about the third tower – the so-called World Trade Centre Building 7 (or the Salmon Brothers Building).."

Um. Doesn't he mean the Salomon Brothers building?

Does this guy really expect the CIA, FBI - the Pentagon etc. to report directly to him?

176 lance  Sun, Aug 26, 2007 5:53:25am
Not to be smug, Lance, but low alloy steel, the stuff covered under ASTM's standard A 36 that covers the steel thats used in structural members, starts loosing its strength big time at around 650 F

Go ahead and be smug - I'm the dolt that confused celsius and farenheit. I do enjoy it when other lizards whip out ASTM specs - keep it up!

;)

177 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 26, 2007 9:55:44am
178 highflight  Sun, Aug 26, 2007 11:08:53am

#176

Okay, I'm in: My industry has to meet the requirements of ASTM B807.

plenty of us nerds around LGF.

179 BrunoMitchell  Mon, Aug 27, 2007 5:22:34am

The info about 7 WTC is just plain wrong - and there is no Salmon Building in the area as far as I know. (Talk about "fishy.")


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