LGF

-RetweetBritain's Enormous Problem

Fri, Sep 7, 2007 at 8:01:24 am PDT

I know some of our British readers get upset when I use a title like “Britain’s Enormous Problem,” but what else can you call it when more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques are run by hardline Deobandi clerics who hate Western civilization and are preaching jihad to young British Muslims? Hardline takeover of British mosques.

Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.

Riyadh ul Haq, who supports armed jihad and preaches contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus, is in line to become the spiritual leader of the Deobandi sect in Britain. The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taleban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques, according to a police report seen by The Times.

The Times investigation casts serious doubts on government statements that foreign preachers are to blame for spreading the creed of radical Islam in Britain’s mosques and its policy of enouraging the recruitment of more “home-grown” preachers.

Mr ul Haq, 36, was educated and trained at an Islamic seminary in Britain and is part of a new generation of British imams who share a similar radical agenda. He heaps scorn on any Muslims who say they are “proud to be British” and argues that friendship with a Jew or a Christian makes “a mockery of Allah’s religion”.

Seventeen of Britain’s 26 Islamic seminaries are run by Deobandis and they produce 80 per cent of home-trained Muslim clerics. Many had their studies funded by local education authority grants. The sect, which has significant representation on the Muslim Council of Britain, is at its strongest in the towns and cities of the Midlands and northern England.

Figures supplied to The Times by the Lancashire Council of Mosques reveal that 59 of the 75 mosques in five towns – Blackburn, Bolton, Preston, Oldham and Burnley – are Deobandi-run.

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363 comments

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1 cybermonk  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:03:00am

ROPMA

2 Occasional Reader  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:03:12am

[closing eyes tightly]

"just a tiny minority of extremists... just a tiny minority of extremists..."

3 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:03:35am

How many of them are funded by British citizen's taxes?

Supporting your own destruction is known as suicide

Westerners are dreaming of their end

4 WriterMom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:03:38am

I respectfully suggest that any Brits who are offended by the header should be more offended by the expanding territory of the Caliphate on the land formerly known as the UK.

5 SonOfLiberty  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:03:49am

Careful, these numbers might offend the Muslims.

Let's just not post them anymore, okay?

6 WriterMom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:04:09am

re: #2 Occasional Reader

Pssst: that only works if you wear the red ruby slippers.

7 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:04:21am

Heads in the sand, heads in the sand

The brits are too polite and quiet to confront evil in their midsts

theyd rather financially support it

Pathetic

8 insanity police  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:04:43am

Big problem, simple solution. Deport the foreign non-citizen Islamist preachers!

9 zmdavid  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:04:52am
The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taleban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques, according to a police report seen by The Times.


Wow. Evil conservatives again. Is everything the conservatives' fault?

10 mean Gene  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:05:17am

5 towns have 75 mosques?
That's a readymade way to hide the really evil plotters in the back of one of these mosques while all the rest of them go elsewhere or provide cover.

11 pingjockey  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:05:38am

There is a war coming. Sooner or later our cousins across the pond are going to say "enough of this shit". My wife is from Wales and I just can't see this lunacy going on much longer. They do have a problem though, they disarmed the populace. This could pose a self defence problem.

12 WriterMom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:05:42am
13 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:05:53am

re: #5 SonOfLiberty


The death cult uses threats to make westerners fearful and cowtow

Just like a 1.5 billion worldwide mob rule

Terrorism Works

The root cause of terrorism is its success

success enabled by its victims - suicide

14 galloping granny  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:05:54am

It has been all too obvious for some time now that "Great" Britain is not so great anymore and is in fact teetering on it's last legs. After the story the other day about the 22 year old woman who will have her child taken away on the word of someone who has never met her that she "might" eventually show symptoms of Munchausen's By Proxy, I guess chickens are coming home to roost. But then, word has it that the Defender of THE Faith to be has long since become muslim.

15 NoSubmission  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:05:56am

I'm sure the BBC will help take care of the problem. Nothing to worry about...

16 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:05:57am
17 insanity police  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:05:59am

re: #8 insanity police

Big problem, simple solution. Deport the foreign non-citizen Islamist preachers!

As far as the home-grown Islamists, that is another problem. Watch them very closely. How about proscuting them for heate speech like you do to everyone else, unless they are Muslim.

18 Thanos  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:06:37am

I wonder if he's related to Sami ul Haq in Pakistan, who closed the school and sent all students to aid the Taliban when we invaded Afghanistan?

19 insanity police  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:06:45am

re: #16 buzzsawmonkey

See my #17

As far as the home-grown Islamists, that is another problem. Watch them very closely. How about proscuting them for [hate] speech like you do to everyone else, unless they are Muslim.

20 EC Marm  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:06:57am

Great. How long before we start reading about the 'spring Taliban offensive' down the river Thames?

21 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:07:35am
22 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:07:44am

The inmates at MPAC are seething...
Takeover of British mosques by hardline sect

I think its about time that these people realised that the Ummah is one body and there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim, with us its also either you are with us or against us there is no middleway.

And we as an Ummah should realise that sucking up to these people as the figures in the article have attempted won't get you love or respect from the Non-Muslim.
...
What about Oh the great freedom of Religion? Do we need to have our mosques checked that they are followingthe Kaafir Curriculum of Islam or not?

23 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:07:53am

re: #11 pingjockey

I hear most are simply fleeing rather than staying to fight - modern western response - leave, flee, hide, run - live in fear - that's not freedom

The west isn't as free as we think - living in fear is not freedom

Liberals dont want guns and want to cut an run - sounds like the MSM

24 Black George Bush  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:08:30am

Cant figure out how to blood for allah? Please see the nearest US solider for assistance.

25 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:08:33am
26 rtheyserius  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:08:47am
"...has called on Muslims to 'shed blood' for Allah..."

That, right there, should get his ass arrested.

27 charles_martel  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:08:48am

Looks like in Britain, they will soon say, "God save the 'deen!"

28 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:09:07am

re: #2 Occasional Reader

Were you repeating this while your head was buried in the sand, or while clicking the ruby slippers? /humor

29 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:09:20am

How many churches and practicing Christians compared to Mo_HAM death culters in the UK?

I hear many are converting to help spread the terror, fear and hate - others just fleeing

30 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:09:41am
31 SonOfLiberty  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:09:45am

re: #13 mglazer

Oh, I agree. I was just being sarcastic.

32 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:10:34am

The UK IS GONE long gone, a cultural death wish come true

For how long has the brtiish society hated themselves and wanted their 'empire' to disappear, well it seems their dreams will come true soon enough

33 galloping granny  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:10:45am

re: #21 buzzsawmonkey

re: #14 galloping granny

Wait'll people start getting their kids taken away because they "might" drink to excess, "might" abuse drugs, "might" smoke around them.

New Jersey already has a law against smoking in a car with children. It's coming.

I think some of this is already happening in the UK. The most horrifying thing to me is that once the state has decided on little or no evidence to remove your children you are never allowed to talk about it even to an attorney. Off to jail with you if you do. Not much freedom in the UK corner of the Free World these days. Not so many rights of man either.

34 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:10:53am

.

Britain’s 1,350 mosques

No comment needed.

35 Shemesh  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:10:56am

For more, see

[Link: commentisfree.guardian.co.uk...]

36 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:11:12am

re: #27 charles_martel

Now that's funny.

37 jonturner  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:11:47am

re: #10 mean Gene

5 towns have 75 mosques?

Unfortunately, that figure is not surprising. The British approach to dealing with Islam has, and remains, "ignore the problem, and it will go away." To wit: Blackburn, a festering boil of foreign Islamic "values", right in the heart of the UK.

38 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:11:52am

Don't worry... Brits will fight... just need another outrage or two (or maybe three for the really liberal crowd...)

39 pegcity  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:11:53am

Can`t say i feel to sorry for what might be the most anti semetic country in Europe.

Karma is a bitch

40 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:12:07am

re: #32 mglazer

They have a big problem but they're far from gone.

41 pingjockey  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:12:15am

re: #23 mglazerThey will grow a pair. Scotland and Ireland and Wales will not go without a fight. London maybe lost. Look at the mayor those maniacs elected.

42 Piglet-U93  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:12:55am

re: #8 insanity police

Big problem, simple solution. Deport the foreign non-citizen Islamist preachers!

Deport them all, the only way to be sure.

43 momac  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:12:55am

“proud to be British” and argues that friendship with a Jew or a Christian makes “a mockery of Allah’s religion”.

Why can they make remarks like that yet we can't be suspicious of their activities over here without being labels a '-phobe' or racist of some sort?

44 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:13:00am

re: #39 pegcity

Karma is a bitch


Right back attcha.

45 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:13:35am

re: #3 mglazer

How many of them are funded by British citizen's taxes?

Supporting your own destruction is known as suicide

Westerners are dreaming of their end

Many had their studies funded by local education authority grants

.

46 Perplexed  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:13:46am

Looks like the 600 mosques (600/1350= 45%approx) need shutting down, the imams deported and the mosque attendees reprogrammed.

47 rab3  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:13:47am

The Times investigation casts serious doubts on government statements that foreign preachers are to blame for spreading the creed of radical Islam in Britain’s mosques and its policy of enouraging the recruitment of more “home-grown” preachers.

Uh excuse me. The foreign "preachers" plant the seeds to cultivate a crop of home grown "preachers". A distinction with out a difference.

48 hous bin pharteen  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:14:12am

When they stop preaching religion and start preaching revolution, the mosques stop being a religious site and start becoming a military site.

50 Peacekeeper  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:14:38am

My child made the Honor Roll at Tidbury School.
My child beheaded your little Kafir.

51 NoSubmission  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:15:34am

You can't even fly the Union Jack when protesting Islamics.
Unreal! Come on, Brits, get a grip on what's happening to you.

52 pingjockey  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:15:41am

Doesn't the UK have a large Hindu and Sikh minority? They won't put up with no damn dhimmitude.

53 Piglet-U93  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:15:51am

The only "race" about Islam is the race to make the world into its own image - A world of cesspools.

54 galloping granny  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:16:36am

re: #32 mglazer

The UK IS GONE long gone, a cultural death wish come true

For how long has the brtiish society hated themselves and wanted their 'empire' to disappear, well it seems their dreams will come true soon enough

I've never seen the Brits as hating themselves or wanting their Empire to disappear. On the contrary, they have spent my entire lifetime trying to recall days of glory, pretend they still have an Empire and hating us because we rescued them (again.) Also pushing off the title of World Champion Imperialist Nation on to the USA. The UK government does not hate Israel because it is Jewish - they hate Israel and have been out to destroy it for 60 years because little Israel was their last and biggest defeat.

55 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:16:44am

Just a fraction. One-half is a fraction, right?

56 Piglet-U93  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:16:56am

re: #46 Perplexed

Looks like the 600 mosques (600/1350= 45%approx) need shutting down, the imams deported and the mosque attendees reprogrammed.

Shut them all down, shut them down, now.

57 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:17:05am
58 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:18:03am

Mohamed El Baradei ask the world to give Iran more time...to build bombs. ...O.K...he didn't say that way...BUT

...The chief UN nuclear inspector responded to US criticism on Friday, saying critics were not giving attempts to get Iran to come clean on past nuclear activities a chance to work.

Mohamed El Baradei, chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency, also urged both Iran and the US-led camp pushing for new Security Council sanctions over Tehran’s nuclear defiance to agree to a time-out to cool passions and pave the way for a return to negotiations

.
[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

59 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:18:56am

Sometimes I feel like the movie "Children of Men" was part prophecy. How long before the CIA has to air-drop crates of guns to British "insurgents" who are trying to restore parliamentary democracy? Ten years? Twenty? :P

I know I love to say "put 'em on boats", but the first people taken down to the Thames and told to swim home should be members of what the Brits call - I believe - the "establishment."

60 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:19:07am

re: #31 SonOfLiberty

I know, I just dont like to hear what the enemy would like even if you are using it ironically.

61 rtheyserius  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:19:33am

I'm not too inclined to single out Britain for criticism. They do have an enormous problem. And at the rate U.S. communities are bending over to make concessions to Muslim demands for special treatment, America won't be far behind the Brits for long.

62 nyc redneck  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:19:42am

re: #38 experiencedtraveller

Don't worry... Brits will fight... just need another outrage or two (or maybe three for the really liberal crowd...)

it does appear that the whole civilized world is just waiting on afew more outrages from these primitive evil bastards. hopefully our growing anger will spell truly devastating repercussions for these beasts from hell.

63 rab3  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:20:28am

A little early OT

Terrorists foil FBI watchlist

WASHINGTON - The FBI failed to put as many as 20 suspected terrorists on watch lists tailored to alert border agents and immigration officials because of a technology glitch, a Justice Department audit concluded Thursday.

64 hous bin pharteen  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:21:26am

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

Yeah it is.
The next step you will see is more Islamic supremacists being put up for office by the Democratic party in areas they will be sure to win.
Dean is already calling for it.
We can pretend the candidates will be moderates, but where has the moderate Islamic voice been in this country? All we here is the seething CAIR types. Where is the moderate Islamic voice now? Where?

Any one?

Any one?


Bueller?
Bueller?

65 Infidelsalwayswin  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:22:23am

I don't get upset per se, but it does concern me when tensions appear between what I consider natural allies. However, I try to be philosophic about it; the worse it gets the nearer one gets to doing something about it.
We do have a problem though, that much is patently clear.

66 galloping granny  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:23:09am

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

re: #33 galloping granny

My point is, Britain is not unique. It's coming here...slowly, inch by inch, step by step, people are acceding to government bullying "in our own best interest." The officiousness of crackpots, Nosy Parkers and People in the Grip of a Great Idea, backed by the government, is a terrible and terrifying thing.

I agree with you there. John Edward's "mandatory health care" being a prime example.

67 storagemanager  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:24:25am

re: #58 storagemanager

Mohamed El Baradei ask the world to give Iran more time...to build bombs. ...O.K...he didn't say that way...BUT

...The chief UN nuclear inspector responded to US criticism on Friday, saying critics were not giving attempts to get Iran to come clean on past nuclear activities a chance to work.
Mohamed El Baradei, chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency, also urged both Iran and the US-led camp pushing for new Security Council sanctions over Tehran’s nuclear defiance to agree to a time-out to cool passions and pave the way for a return to negotiations

.
[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

By the way...has not seen this...

Iran's top nuclear negotiator Ali Larijani said here Thursday that nuclear energy is among the strategic technologies of the Islamic Republic system and Iran will never give it up.

[Link: www.irna.com...]

68 chinesearithmetic  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:24:42am

Hatred in Britain? Coals, welcome to Newcastle!

69 Piglet-U93  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:25:14am
70 rab3  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:25:45am

re: #64 hous bin pharteen

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

Yeah it is.
The next step you will see is more Islamic supremacists being put up for office by the Democratic party in areas they will be sure to win.
Dean is already calling for it.
We can pretend the candidates will be moderates, but where has the moderate Islamic voice been in this country? All we here is the seething CAIR types. Where is the moderate Islamic voice now? Where?

Any one?

Any one?


Bueller?
Bueller?

Here is the state by state electoral map for Islamic supremacists.

71 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:25:45am

re: #50 Peacekeeper

My child made the Honor Roll at Tidbury School.
My child beheaded your little Kafir.

ROFLMAO!

72 kawfytawk  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:25:56am

OT: Haditha Video Doctored?

Is this true? Anyone?...feeling sick to my stomach and angry as hell

[Link: www.newsmax.com...]

73 wanumba  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:26:14am

Is Deobandi new code for Wahhabist?
Seems like quite a bland statement to say it gave birth to the Taliban in Afghanistan, as if it was spontaneous generation, something that just popped up in a vacuum, not part of an existing movement. Bin Laden, when he was alive, was parked quite comfortably, politically and spiritually in Afghanistan, with full intentions to set off his expanionistic vision from an Afghan home base. Find it somewhat hard to believe that he would tolerate any competition while he was there.
Until he managed the take over of Saudi Arabia, installing himself as the new head of the nation, of course. Bin laden would have dumped ruler of lower class Afghanistan for ruler of swish Riyadh in a nanosecond.
That's the problem with monarchies - if ya ain't in the royal family, fuggettaboutit, or as they used to say, "Be gone, commoner."
Ego,ego,ego,ego,ego,ego.

74 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:26:29am

re: #41 pingjockey

What are they waiting for then?

Those who think all of a sudden the UK and others will suddenly explode and start to combat terrorism will be sorrily mistaken

AS they haven't they won't

Don't kid or fool yourselves, they dont want to fight back, they have no will - if they did they would be instead of 'waiting' for something you think will all of a sudden awaken them - that's nonsense

Nothing will awaken them to do much of anything, nothing - fact is they dont want to do anything - sad fact but clearly the reality

75 Is it me?  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:26:48am

I was going to put a link to the article, I read it in the Daily Mail today
The towns mentioned have big moslem populations but only represent a small number out of the population.
The BIG problem is 10 years of Labour. PC gone mad and no backbone. They are the ones who hate the British (actually mostly the English) and have persecuted the decent indigenous population.
Time for a clear out. Get rid of the Immams and the trouble causing mosques. Warn the rest that they either integrate or leave. There were race riots years ago and it might have been in Blackburn so it will happen again. Once it takes off there's no knowing where it may go. We could be looking at a real right wing govt. as the traditional labour voters are losing their jobs to all the EU unfettered immigrants coming in and taking their jobs, the rest from the centre who are in despair. Broon is a Scot so he should know better, but he has been busy dumping the dross from all over the planet on England, he thinks he will get away with it. Man's an idiot.
It's going to go pear shaped.

76 Atweber  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:26:50am

and for this we saved Britain from the Germans

77 wanumba  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:26:57am

re: #44 Killgore Trout

re: #39 pegcity
Karma is a bitch

Right back attcha.

LOL!

78 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:28:19am

Do you folks really believe all of a sudden the brits/others will react to the death cult and pounce when something other than all that has happened already will occur?

Do you all really think that?

79 dust my broom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:28:31am

Riyadh ul Haq has many supporters in Canada and used to pack stadiums before the rest of the population got wind of what he was preaching.

Background.

80 Dom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:30:44am

Charles,

There's clearly nothing wrong with your headline to this article. The ascendancy of Islamism in the mosques is an enormous problem. The issue I have is generally when a few derogatory posters take it as evidence of widespread indifference, support or submission to these people, or the suggestion that they overwhelm British culture and we have no gumption to fight it. Those posters sustain the notion by pointing to the LLL as if they were an exclusively British impediment to tackling the issue. If it were so we would not have as many informative reports on the subject from the admittedly wavering Newsnight, Dispatches and Panorama programs, for example. Ignoring the global nature of Islamist plans and instead finding Britain a useful scapegoat as some posters do, does nothing to solve the problem and extends from patriotic joshing to spiteful insults. I don't think you do that - in fact I find you rather respectful of the alliance and impressive in your coverage of Britain. Our massive problem is that Islamism is a growing presence within our large Islamic communities. I am perfectly happy for you to emphasise this.

Some of the posters here today are full of such bile, and I don't really see the need.

81 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:32:08am
82 galloping granny  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:34:17am

re: #72 kawfytawk

OT: Haditha Video Doctored?

Is this true? Anyone?...feeling sick to my stomach and angry as hell

[Link: www.newsmax.com...]

Oh My G_d! Unbelievable. Whoever ordered this and whoever did it should be brought up on charges themselves. There is NO excuse for railroading our own men. And then we wonder why people don't trust the military, don't want to join the military or give credence to the Truthers.

83 galloping granny  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:34:57am

re: #78 mglazer

Do you folks really believe all of a sudden the brits/others will react to the death cult and pounce when something other than all that has happened already will occur?

Do you all really think that?

No, I don't. I think that if they were going to fight this they would have already have begun to do so.

84 Opinionated  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:35:16am

Britain being anti Israel to its core, is a ripe soil for Islam.

That's not surprising.

What is surprising is that Haaretz has actual published a pro Israel editorial.

A royal insult

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

85 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:36:21am

re: #82 galloping granny

Please Explain: "why people don't trust the military, don't want to join the military or give credence to the Truthers."

You really believe that?

86 Opinionated  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:36:39am

re: #84 Opinionated

Wish list for LGF- An edit function.

87 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:37:18am

re: #83 galloping granny

Me too, the time to do react has long past

88 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:37:43am

re: #68 chinesearithmetic

Are you implying that Britain is the source of hatred?

89 hous bin pharteen  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:37:48am

re: #81 buzzsawmonkey

Fascists of a feather, flock together

90 galloping granny  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:38:00am

re: #81 buzzsawmonkey

re: #64 hous bin pharteen

re: #66 galloping granny

I was also thinking of the greatest potential Government Intrusion Scam ever invented--"global warming."

I was listening to NPR during the morning drive to work, and they were discussing possible rearrangement of the miserably inefficient flight patterns over the NYC area airports. Of course, the neighborhoods which might be affected by the new patterns are up in arms and demanding that everything stay as it is. In the midst of this, the host suggested that "maybe we have to get used to not being able to fly anywhere we want, when we want," because airplane exhaust "is one of the worst things for global warming."

Total control over every aspect of life is the Holy Grail being sought by the proponents of "global warming." I am at the point of being willing to go to work in a breechcloth (in deference to the inferno we are being threatened with) rather that accede to anything which is justified as a "global warming" measure.

The reason the Left and the Islamists get along so well is that they both want to control every aspect of life. The Leftists are willing to cede control over sex and clothing to the Islamists as long as the Islamists let the Left control what we drive, where and how we live, and what we can purchase.

I say this as a scientist:

GLOBAL WARMING IS A SCAM!

Carbon dioxide is necessary to life on the planet. No, CO2, no plant life. No plant life, no oxygen. No oxygen, no animal life.

And what is with those "carbon credits?" Reminds me of the old "dispensations" the Catholic Church used to sell. Sin for me, but not for thee, since you are too poor to afford it.

91 Daisy  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:38:04am

Hail Britannia is not my anthem, nevertheless, it's always managed to bring tears of pride and gratitude for civilization to my eyes.

It still does bring tears - only now my tears are of anger and sadness for the sheer lack of response by way too many English to this enormous problem of hateful Islamism in their midst. English who seem only too willing - to become slaves to Allah - forever - and ever and ever - Hell Britannia, wake up!

92 wanumba  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:38:25am

re: #78 mglazer

Do you folks really believe all of a sudden the brits/others will react to the death cult and pounce when something other than all that has happened already will occur?
Do you all really think that?


The up and coming generation has been wussified thanks to hard Left school indoctrination - am quite concerned about the nilistic and aimless comportment of the kids they are producing - (cutting, drugs, apathy -all sure signs of spirtual emptiness - no instruction in the solid and challenging ideals of honor and sacrifice, or being solid enough to call evil evil and good good) who are in sharp contrast to their 40-50 year old very practical and hard-working Brit parents.
Personally have NO confidence at this point - the noose was slipped around their necks by the Left, now the radicals are tightening it.
See the same confused wandering and dullness in the upcoming US generation - not quite so much only because of the (still) greater variety of the US educational system.

93 blacque jacques shellacque  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:38:42am

I know some of our British readers get upset when I use a title like “Britain’s Enormous Problem,” but...

One word: denial.

94 nyc redneck  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:39:26am

re: #78 mglazer

Do you folks really believe all of a sudden the brits/others will react to the death cult and pounce when something other than all that has happened already will occur?

Do you all really think that?

human beings are animals. ( even a cornered rat fights.) my hope is that people make a move before the leprosy of islam has weakened them too much, before it is too late. i quess we'll see it play out. i know decent citizens who won't go quietly

95 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:40:05am

re: #92 wanumba

Agreed, this has been long in coming and hard to see how it will suddenly turn around

96 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:41:32am
97 galloping granny  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:41:58am

re: #85 mglazer

re: #82 galloping granny

Please Explain: "why people don't trust the military, don't want to join the military or give credence to the Truthers."

You really believe that?

Mglazer, some people do feel that way. About half of all Americans. If you read the story linked in this article, you would note that SOMEBODY in the military ordered someone in the military to edit 10 hours or so of constant aerial footage of the Haditha event down to just four 15 minute segments, segments that show something very different than the original footage according to the guy who watched as the footage came in. Evidence that would have - and should have - completely exonerated the Haditha Marines was deliberately destroyed.

So yes, things like this are a perfect example of why some people are don't trust the military - or the government.

98 itellu3times  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:42:22am

But how different are we in the US?

And what would you say if a known friend of the Saudi royal family became President of the United States?

99 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:42:36am

re: #94 nyc redneck

Hope is a great force, but I'm afraid to say that this evil death cult has already further weakened the West, as others have said by the weakened foundation laid by western liberals.

The unimpeded decline that began in the 60s is the price we are paying.

Nihilism and selfishness will always lead to weakness

100 LC LaWedgie  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:46:08am
101 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:46:57am

re: #97 galloping granny

I trust our military and govt I just would never rely on them. I believe in personal responsiblity, independence and freedom.

That is why I, my friends, family and others I know are heavily armed, prepared and trained.

Everyone should have regular shooting practice, survivial and self defense training like Commando Krav Maga.

102 Maximu§  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:47:33am

Im not worried about England. When their 9/11 hits London and thousands are laying in the streets dead...they will do what must be done.

Any Mosque that preaches hatred will be bulldozed to the ground and all its congregation will be deported to their home countires or wherever their parents came from.

It will come to pass, mark my words.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

103 ctrlL  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:48:59am

OT:
Fox News says US Intelligence has new tape by OBL and is reviewing it.

/maybe they could review the edited Haditha film while they are at it ... !

104 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:49:27am

re: #97 galloping granny

Wasn't Scott Beachamp also someone in the military?

I am not surprised there are some bad people in our military but that doesn't make me 'not trust the military, not want to join the military or give credence to the Truthers'

105 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:51:08am
106 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:51:26am

re: #102 Maximu?

Didn't their 9.11 happen already?

I'm guessing nothing will wake them up, just like America kinda half woke up on our 9.11, nothing compared to Pearl harbor, I'm afraid we simply live in a different time due to the western liberals destruction of our society that was allowed to happen in the 60s.

107 nyc redneck  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:51:31am

re: #99 mglazer

re: #94 nyc redneck

Hope is a great force, but I'm afraid to say that this evil death cult has already further weakened the West, as others have said by the weakened foundation laid by western liberals.

The unimpeded decline that began in the 60s is the price we are paying.

Nihilism and selfishness will always lead to weakness

agreed. but i am actually meeting young people in their 20's who are revolted by their stupid baby boomer parents. this is very refreshing, especially here in nyc. ( these are kids in the art world ) it does give me hope which i won't abandon. and abt the rednecks back home, they're ready.

108 Silhouette  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:52:51am

As I said in an earlier thread, the best part of this story is that it was written. The Times investigated mosques. They sent in people undercover. They didn't spend their time writing white-wash pieces for terrorists (although maybe that's another department) but investigating and documenting those that are truly a threat to freedom.

109 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:53:34am

#33 galloping granny 9/07/07 8:10:45 am reply quote report

I think some of this is already happening in the UK. The most horrifying thing to me is that once the state has decided on little or no evidence to remove your children you are never allowed to talk about it even to an attorney. Off to jail with you if you do. Not much freedom in the UK corner of the Free World these days. Not so many rights of man either.

The experiences I've had as a nurse are exactly the opposite. I worked in Pediatrics and had children come in beaten beyond recognition, almost starved to death, never put in school, and often sexually abused. Sad and horrifying beyond belief stories and in not one of those cases was it that CPS had not been previously made aware that the parent or parents were abusive and/or neglectful. In most cases, the parents had been reported numerous times, have had their kids taken away numerous times, and always got them back. Then, we have people being reported for giving their kid a spank on the butt in public. It's all part of a society that has lost its common sense.

110 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:55:00am
111 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:55:18am

re: #107 nyc redneck

That's great, get them some guns, shooting practice, survival and close combat classes. This should be mandatory for everyone young and old.

You can get the entire navy seals training guide in PDF online - tons of useful survival guidelines.

112 Maximu§  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:58:55am

re: #106 mglazer

re: #102 Maximu?

Didn't their 9.11 happen already?


Apparently, it was not enough to wake them up, but when there are thousands of dead men, woman and children bleeding on the streets or chocking to death on Mustard gas...I'm sure their survival instinct will kick in...big time!

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

113 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:04:38am

re: #112 Maximu§

SO when everyone is dead their survival instinct will save them?

I hope you're right

114 honzik  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:09:43am

Here's another problem: the systematic denegration of Christianity by the bien pensant atheist Left plus the systematic emasculation of Christianity by the bien pensant religious Left has produced a spiritual vacuum in England. And, since supernature abhors a vacuum, not a few disaffected British youth are converting to radical Islam.

So, we have the tragedy of John Donne being replaced by Riyadh ul Haq.

115 nyc redneck  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:09:45am

re: #111 mglazer

that's it.

116 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:10:24am

re: #80 Dom

None of the UK lizards get upset with titles like 'Britain’s Enormous Problem'. We know there is a big problem, that's why we are here.

We have no problem discussing things like this and put our point of view across but we object to that point that gets constantly put forward that the moonbats who are in charge of our media are representative of our society.

I'm sure there would be an outcry if somebody from the UK was to post on threads concerning the US and used examples of DailyKos and Huffington Post as being representative of US society.

117 Wicksy  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:14:39am

I don't think we get upset when you say "Britain has a huge problem". As Brits, we are most qualified to know that already:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

What we do get VERY upset about is when our armed forces (YOUR ALLIES) are accused of being "pussies and butt-boys". Yes, I read these things on LGF. Very disconcerting, considering the people here are *supposed* to be our friends, whilst the very best British men & women are *still* fighting and dying every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There are some real idiots on here who seem to have an unhealthy passion for hating Brits (eg. ploome), taking delight in insulting and SPITTING at us and our armed forces for no apparent reason. Yes that did really happen here too.

I personally find these things upsetting and insulting. I am also disappointed when people say that Britain is 'lost' or that we're all yobs, thugs, anti-Semites, or whatever. I wonder what the LGF readership statistics are by country? I'd bet more Brits read LGF than any other nation apart from the US. So we don't need preaching to. Its a bit like when your boss gives a lecture to his staff about the others who haven't turned up for a meeting. There's no point preaching to those people - they're the ones who actually turned up!

I also think that whilst Britain does have big problems, they are no worse than anywhere else, and certainly no worse than what is also in store for the US in the future. The US has its own "big problems" too, ya know.

118 Colonel Panik  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:15:05am

Do any of you listen to the Shire Network News podcast? It's a mixed UK, Australia, US production. They just did their 100th show and the presenters, "Brian of London", "Tom Paine" (Melbourne Australia) and Meryl Yourish in the USA were discussing the fate of the Anglosphere nations and how they got involved with doing the podcast. "Brian" and "Tom" both made the point that they felt they had to use on air aliases since unlike Meryl they did not live in a country were people are free to own firearms to defend themselves...

It's a great show of mixed news and satire about the threat of the ROP and they've had guests familiar to LGF reader like Mark Steyn, Robert Spencer, etc. You can subscribe via iTunes or here at their homepage:

Shire Network News: Defending the Anglosphere through Satire

119 zmdavid  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:15:48am

re: #81 buzzsawmonkey

I was also thinking of the greatest potential Government Intrusion Scam ever invented--"global warming."


Global Warming is also a great way to make people hate the US. We're now responsible for the weather, but only if its bad.

120 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:16:05am
121 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:18:29am

re: #117 Wicksy

I don't think anyone here does or should denigrate any US fighting Ally ever!

That being said if I recall hasn't the UK pulled out of Iraq?

122 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:21:22am

re: #117 Wicksy


Agreed the USA has its very own unique problems with the WOT, but I dont think its overblown to say it is much worse in the UK for various reasons such as the inability of UK citizenry to legally defend themselves with firearms, the large amount of islamists, the way in which the uk govt coddles and tacitly supports this to continue unabetted.

123 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:23:43am

#106 mglazer 9/07/07 8:51:26 am reply quote report


I'm guessing nothing will wake them up, just like America kinda half woke up on our 9.11, nothing compared to Pearl harbor, I'm afraid we simply live in a different time due to the western liberals destruction of our society that was allowed to happen in the 60s.

The terrorists have already figured out that we are so inured to violent crime that to make the news here for more than a week, they need to pull off something big. It has to kill thousands, shut down travel and commerce, and make our stock market take a dive. They've already figured out that a mall shooting here and there, running over some pedestrians here and there...won't get them any traction, publicity, or credit.

They know that their little acts of terrorism will just blend right in with our already high violent crime and while the story may be in the news for a couple of days, it will be written off as just another crime and the person or persons who did it may or may not be Muslim but it doesn't really matter even if they are because Muslims can commit crimes too.

It must take extreme patience and perseverance to have to plot and plan something big enough to wake America up. Now they know that something as big as 9/11 won't even do it.

124 Maximu§  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:23:44am

re: #113 mglazer

re: #112 Maximu§

SO when everyone is dead their survival instinct will save them?

I hope you're right

Im saying when enough people have died, England's rage will shake the earth. The liberals will be thrown out of power, the violent Mosque's bulldozed and mass deportations will occur.

I have faith in the White Englishman, more faith then alot of people have in here. Hell, it may be the soccer thugs that save England.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

125 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:26:53am

re: #124 Maximu§

Let's hope so

126 marwan's daughter  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:28:23am

re: #118 Colonel Panik

I love Shire Network News. Brian of London and Tom Paine really work hard at it. And Meryl is also sharp too.

127 edinbud  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:29:17am

I'm in Britain and, sadly, I don't believe we'll ever do anything to resist the Islamification. We'll just allow them - encourage them, even - to infiltrate and take over. The politically correct education system here - from primary school upwards - has successfully brainwashed pretty much everyone. The further educated you are, the more blind you are to the threat. If you've been to university you're largely incapable of believing anything other than "Islam is a religion of peace" and "Jews are the real problem". Coupled with a media which is almost entirely anti-Israel and reluctant to report facts about Islam which don't fit their agenda, it's difficult to be optimistic.

128 abu_garcia  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:30:33am

re: #75 Is it me?

We could be looking at a real right wing govt. as the traditional labour voters are losing their jobs to all the EU unfettered immigrants coming in and taking their jobs, the rest from the centre who are in despair.

As long as the dole continues there will be a cushion against job loss that will dull that pain. However, as the North Sea depletes, the dole will become a greater and greater burden. I agree, strife will come, but it will take a while, meantime the number of immigrants grows and natives are leaving - not good.

129 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:33:27am

#117 Wicksy 9/07/07 9:14:39 am reply quote report

I don't think we get upset when you say "Britain has a huge problem". As Brits, we are most qualified to know that already:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

What we do get VERY upset about is when our armed forces (YOUR ALLIES) are accused of being "pussies and butt-boys". Yes, I read these things on LGF. Very disconcerting, considering the people here are *supposed* to be our friends, whilst the very best British men & women are *still* fighting and dying every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There are some real idiots on here who seem to have an unhealthy passion for hating Brits (eg. ploome), taking delight in insulting and SPITTING at us and our armed forces for no apparent reason. Yes that did really happen here too.

I personally find these things upsetting and insulting. I am also disappointed when people say that Britain is 'lost' or that we're all yobs, thugs, anti-Semites, or whatever. I wonder what the LGF readership statistics are by country? I'd bet more Brits read LGF than any other nation apart from the US. So we don't need preaching to. Its a bit like when your boss gives a lecture to his staff about the others who haven't turned up for a meeting. There's no point preaching to those people - they're the ones who actually turned up!

I also think that whilst Britain does have big problems, they are no worse than anywhere else, and certainly no worse than what is also in store for the US in the future. The US has its own "big problems" too, ya know.

I agree. A little bit of poking fun of each other for the sake of humor has always been okay...People with a sense of humor can take it. I think it crosses way over the line however, to try and demoralize Brits in general because they've been so taken over by leftists ideology.

We are not far behind here at all. We share the same common culture of appeasement, blame the victim, see no evil, love your enemy, we are all equal crap. No we are not all equal. We all deserve equal opportunity under the law to make the best of ourselves and live in freedom. That doesn't guarantee equality. There's just too wide of a spectrum when it comes to attributes like intelligence, motivation, etc.

130 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:36:55am

#127 edinbud 9/07/07 9:29:17 am reply quote report

I'm in Britain and, sadly, I don't believe we'll ever do anything to resist the Islamification. We'll just allow them - encourage them, even - to infiltrate and take over. The politically correct education system here - from primary school upwards - has successfully brainwashed pretty much everyone. The further educated you are, the more blind you are to the threat. If you've been to university you're largely incapable of believing anything other than "Islam is a religion of peace" and "Jews are the real problem". Coupled with a media which is almost entirely anti-Israel and reluctant to report facts about Islam which don't fit their agenda, it's difficult to be optimisti

c.

The exact same thing can be said of America. The only question is about degree.

131 Wicksy  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:36:56am

re: #121 mglazer

re: #117 Wicksy

I don't think anyone here does or should denigrate any US fighting Ally ever!

That being said if I recall hasn't the UK pulled out of Iraq?

Thank you for your support.

Britain is in the process of pulling out of Iraq, although there are still about 5,000 troops stationed in Basra.
However, British troop numbers in Afghanistan are increasing.

Britain simply does not have the military capacity to fight in both places at once without putting intolerable strain on the soldiers. We don't have the troops or the hardware that the US has. This is due to years of criminal neglect and under-funding by the UK govt with respect to our military.

132 abu_garcia  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:43:23am

re: #103 ctrlL

Fox News says US Intelligence has new tape by OBL and is reviewing it.

This morning's paper had a still shot supposedly taken from it. It showed Bin Laden with a dyed beard and said this was a frequent practice.

The shape of the eyebrows was very different from the "before" picture, though. Didn't look like the same guy to me.

Maybe Bin Laden is Bin Dead.

133 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:44:03am
134 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:44:34am
135 pygmalienation  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:46:51am

My suspicion ( and not a little fear), is that the situation in the mosques here in the US is just as bad as the UK. They're just keeping a better lid on it--for now.

136 Wicksy  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:47:11am

Ploome, thank you for proving my point.

137 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:48:27am
138 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:48:47am

#124 Maximu§ 9/07/07 9:23:44 am reply quote report

I have faith in the White Englishman,

I don't have faith in the future of the White Englishman because he's going extinct. How is he going to save the world when he's less than 1% of its population and growing to be a smaller and smaller percentage at a rapid rate? I actually think it will be a good thing though when there is no more white race on earth and they are studying in Anthropology about how many people on earth had some white ancestors but that the race itself went extinct. That way, whenever a problem arises, it can't all be blamed on racism.

139 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:49:30am
140 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:51:01am
141 J.S.  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:57:04am

re: #74 mglazer

I think you are exactly right -- "they don't want to fight back." You've nailed the problem.

From a previous thread (yesterday's) about public libraries purchasing texts written by terrorist groups, what was the response of British posters? It was overwhelmingly of the order -- "Hey, what's the problem?" or "So what?" Then they offered a series of excuses -- "it's freedom of the press", "it's no worse than the govt giving out heroin to addicts", "they can't read anyway", "it's nothing to get excited about." etc., etc. And who did they attack? It was anyone who expressed concern about public libraries purchasing jihadi works (and libraries, thereby, also supporting terrorist-oriented organizations.)...even to the ridiculous point of imagining "a jock" to set things straight as to the "true" nature of Britain -- that "we ain't no suck-ups to Islamists"...yeah, sure.

What I find troubling is that many, many in Britain are reminding me precisely of the psychology of the dhimmi (as illustrated and explained by Bat Ye'or.) it's the displaced anger (the mentality of a whipped slave...they can't attack their oppressor, so their anger is directed against others...and it's these "others" who become hapless scape goats...and meanwhile the Islamist Muslim soldiers march on, unperturbed and placated.)

142 JonR  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:00:02am

I have checked out UK web sites and blogs. I am really concerned that they are living in a denial world and are not dealing with reality. They are so politically correct that they are not wanting to admit that they have let the Trojan Horse (Islam) into their country. Check out #127's comments.

These are not the people that we saved from Germany 60 years ago. They are anti-Semitic, pro-Islam, anti-American and self destructive. They no longer care about who they were, are or will be. We have to insure that the USA does not go down this path. We need to vet the Muslim mosques and if they preach anti-Western hate, deport the people involved. We HAVE to hold on to our country folks. England and most of Europe is gone for all practical purposes. Islam wants to destroy us. They will if we LET them.

143 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:02:21am
144 Colonel Panik  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:02:22am

re: #127 edinbud

I'm in Britain and, sadly, I don't believe we'll ever do anything to resist the Islamification. We'll just allow them - encourage them, even - to infiltrate and take over. The politically correct education system here - from primary school upwards - has successfully brainwashed pretty much everyone. The further educated you are, the more blind you are to the threat. If you've been to university you're largely incapable of believing anything other than "Islam is a religion of peace" and "Jews are the real problem". Coupled with a media which is almost entirely anti-Israel and reluctant to report facts about Islam which don't fit their agenda, it's difficult to be optimistic.


Edinbud,
I'm guessing from your nic you are in Edinburgh?
Great city. Was there on a business trip in 1999. I had a blast. Drank way to much Tennant's 80 shilling. Saw the Military Tatoo up at the castle.
Nothing like the sound of massed pipes and drums.

I agree with you on the education system there though, it's very left wing, as bad or worse than ours in the USA.

It won't be the university educated that will save Britain. It will be the working class types like John Smeaton.

145 Razorbacker  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:03:01am

#96 Buzz

Of course, he is also a committed Democrat.

Recent headlines indicate that about 42% of Democrats should be committed.

146 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:03:06am

#134 ploome hineni 9/07/07 9:44:34 am reply quote report

re: #130 AirForceWife

no

We have a President who probably at-least a third of our people think is an evil bully to the poor Muslims and this same President said a few days after 9/11 "Islam is a religion of Peace". This same President that derailed our military mission in Iraq by making it a humanitarian one for the most part. Remember in the last debates a couple of nights ago when Ron Paul went on and on about how the "neocons" claimed before the war that it would be a cake walk? For heaven's sakes, if measuring by past wars in the world, the toppling of Iraq and the Sadam regime was a cake walk.

Our military accomplished the mission it was sent to do but most people will never know that because no sooner were their objectives met, when the objectives got redefined and made into these loose, subjective, pie in the sky ideas that are not reachable with military force. He set us up for failure and he did so because he too has been infected with liberalism just like most people have who consider themselves conservative. The kinder, gentler, more compassionate conservative President will get us killed almost just as fast as a liberal one will and will screw up our military strategy and missions almost as fast. But hey, we just keep electing people that are either bad or almost as bad so what do we expect?

147 EvilDave3  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:04:45am

It appears the children of Britain really will be slaves.

Britians are leaving at a rate of 196,000 per year (that is 4000 per WEEK, up from 300 during Thatcher).
With emigration rates like these there will be no English left to mount a counter-revolution.
The government there has taken away the citizens right to self-defense. If you fight back against your attacker you are prosecuted under the law. Often getting a stiffer penalty than the attacker. Therefore they vote with their feet.


In flow was 574,000 during the same period.

148 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:09:23am
149 Colonel Panik  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:09:30am

re: #111 mglazer

re: #107 nyc redneck

That's great, get them some guns, shooting practice, survival and close combat classes. This should be mandatory for everyone young and old.

You can get the entire navy seals training guide in PDF online - tons of useful survival guidelines.

They wouldn't be able to do that in the City, they'd have to go upstate for that. Hmm. That's an idea. Open a campground and shooting range in the Adirondacks for non-dhimmi NYCer's to come and learn and practice shooting. We could call it Camp Imnottamoonbat.

150 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:13:44am

I want to clarify my #129, because it might be taken the wrong way. I do not think that this headline "Britains enormous problem" and exposing this story crosses the line over into demoralizing Britain. This blog is a place that exposes this problem all over the world, including here in the U.S.

Calling Brits buttboys and such, I think is wrong and is what I was referring to.

Just to clarify.

151 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:20:12am

re: #135 pygmalienation

Because it is not and wouldn't be as openly tolerated

152 Amy  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:21:33am

The problem isn't enormous - it's existential. England is allowing radical Islam to eat away at her from within, like a parasitic tapeworm.

153 formercorpsman  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:21:41am

I am very concerned for Britain.

I recall during 1979, our embassy, torture, and counting the days.

The vast majority of the row homes on our block had the mickey mouse caricature with the middle held up for Iran, and everyone was talking about turning the place in to glass.

What concerns me most with Britain, is the response of the populace during this last episode, and their military being taken in open waters by Iran.

For our British friends, yes, I am very concerned.

Seriously.

154 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:21:42am

#147 EvilDave3 9/07/07 10:04:45 am reply quote report


The government there has taken away the citizens right to self-defense. If you fight back against your attacker you are prosecuted under the law. Often getting a stiffer penalty than the attacker.

Can that same thing not be said of certain states here in America? Doesn't more than a few of our states require the "duty to flee"? So someone breaks into your home and it is your duty to run out. These states want it so that one day an entire generation of men will never stand up and fight for anything. A whole generation of men that think that when someone breaks into your house that could be there to rape and kill your family, it is your duty to flee. They want men that will run instead of fighting to protect his family. I'm a woman and I'd fight to my death for my kids if someone broke in. I'd fight for my own life too and the first thought even if I am alone will not be to run out of my house. It will be to run to my gun in my house. I know this about myself because I've already been tested and half asleep I can get to my gun within seconds and I go looking where it I heard the noise, not running away from it.

155 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:23:55am

I know some of our British readers get upset when I use a title like “Britain’s Enormous Problem,” but what else can you call it when more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques are run by hardline Deobandi clerics who hate Western civilization and are preaching jihad to young British Muslims?

the posting Brits attack the messanger, decry the problem, and see a black hole when confronted by pervasive and omnipresent antisemitism in all strata of British society

the people are like deer in the headlights

stunned and frozen

Uhm, no. I think you'll find all of us brits posting here to say that we are not at all offended by titles like that, and we agree there is a big problem here, caused by the liberal left.

Hey - we agree that hating America is stupid. Can you guys now get that hating Britain is stupid?
When our politics are dominated by the left, of course it's going to look like we've all given up and are all set to become the latest Islamic state.

But I'm telling you now, nothing could be further from the truth. Many of us are fighting day in, day out against the political correctness that is destroying our society.
Could we get a little support from our american allies, please?

156 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:25:22am
157 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:25:52am
158 pygmalienation  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:26:04am

re: #151 mglazer

I really hope your right. I wonder if/when the demographics change in this country, the radicals will "come out of the closet" as it were.

159 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:26:27am
160 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:28:40am

re: #143 ploome hineni

re: #142 JonR

watchit

you tell the Brits they are antisemitic...they will immediately call you a Brit Hater

never deal with the issue, ignore the pervasive antisemitism...but call YOU a Brit Hater

Uhm. That's because you are saying all brits are anti-semetic.

I'll agree there is a dangerous amount of anti-semitism in modern british "culture".
I'll also add that there is a large amount of *support* for Israel and the jewish race in England too.
You choose to see one and ignore the other, and then we're to blame for taking offense at that?
I'll make this very clear - I have a ridiculous amount of respect for the jews.
I almost wish I was born one myself! If only so I could help them in their fight against, well, too many damn people these days. :|

161 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:29:56am
162 abu_garcia  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:31:05am

I have tried to post a couple of comments at the Timesonline and they have not appeared. Does anyone know if they have LGF links tagged and blocked?

163 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:31:24am
164 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:34:50am

re: #163 ploome hineni

re: #160 MattMacD

Uhm. That's because you are saying all brits are anti-semetic.

what I am saying is that atnisemitism is as pervasive and British as is tea..

its is omnipresent, so much so, people do not even realize it


And you're wrong. The anti-semitism is not at all "omnipresent". It is the "intellectuals" and the left who are anti-semitic.

Please, come to my family and tell them that they must be anti-semitic because they are british. Or maybe we're not really british, because we're not anti-semitic?

Oh trust me, I know full well there is too much anti-semitism in modern british culture. BUT IT IS NOT AS "BRITISH" AS TEA.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.
You don't know brits. You see the left and think "that is britain".
God damn you are making me mad. I need to stop responding.

165 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:35:18am
166 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:35:46am

re: #165 ploome hineni

re: #160 MattMacD

I'll also add that there is a large amount of *support* for Israel and the jewish race in England too.

where?

Uhm, right fucking here, for a start?

167 RobCon  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:36:58am

Oh no. It is the 13 blokes in the BNP that are the big problem if you believe the UK media.

168 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:42:24am
169 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:42:41am
170 Russkilitlover  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:44:10am

re: #155 MattMacD


Hey - we agree that hating America is stupid. Can you guys now get that hating Britain is stupid?

Replace "hate Britain" with "pity Britain" and you are closer. Although pity is racing towards contempt.

171 tballz  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:45:27am

You are all racists. Its time to wake up and realize that these people are from a different culture than ours, one that deserves respect. In fact, it is probably superior to our culture, which is racist, imperialistic, and driven by greed.


Not.

172 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:51:45am

re: #169 ploome hineni

[Link: www.cfi.org.uk...]

[Link: www.lfi.org.uk...]

[Link: www.cfoi.co.uk...]

[Link: www.cfoi.co.uk...]

[Link: www.academics-for-israel.org...]

[Link: www.ldfi.org.uk...]

[Link: www.tufi.org.uk...]

[Link: www.communigate.co.uk...]

[Link: www.freebritannia.org...]

Great what Google can do, isn't it?

173 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:52:46am
174 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:54:19am

re: #169 ploome hineni

re: #166 MattMacD

thats one

No, it's as many brits as there are posting on this site.


Thank you, buzzsawmonkey.

175 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:56:56am
176 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:00:07am

re: #170 Russkilitlover

A lot of Brits hate the Britain that is being described in here, the Britain that has been created by 10 years of Nu-Labour. Now with their 'Messiah' Blair away, Nu-Labour will tear itself apart with infighting between blairites and traditional Labour supporters who despise the things this Government has done. As with recent elections, their vote has slipped and will continue to do so until they have such a narrow majority that they will be a lame duck adminstration and eventually be kicked out.

177 Dom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:03:04am

Enough! Here at LGF we're all clear that Islamism is a huge issue and the above article, from The Times (London) outlines exactly that. Here nobody that speaks is antisemitic. Here we acknowledge not everyone feels that way - and we know the type both at home and abroad, from the naive anti-capitalist to the more determined intellectual antisemite to those that inherit antisemitic explanations to life's problems. We don't want it to overtake out politics or culture and it hasn't done so. We disagree on the scale of public complicity. Nevertheless:

ploome, you are demoralising and insulting and it isn't necessary. Seriously. I don't know what experiences you have of the current political climate in Britain. Mine is that most people are 1. remarkably shallow and uninformed 2. quite open-minded or 3. skeptical of all advocacy; and that movers and shakers on both the left and the right are a class apart - unlike some here I wouldn't trust the "soccer fans" to distinguish the Islamist problem. Most of the public is floating. I've met plenty of people with a hatred of Israel, including many Americans. It's a problem. ploome, go find some British forum where they're slagging off Israel and vent your anger there. You're not so much preaching to the choir as spitting at them.

178 mglazer  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:08:28am

re: #177 Dom

I agree, it's pointless to attack LGFers

counter productive

Let's support each other, not fight

United We Stand

179 Call me Infidel  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:08:46am

re: #80 Dom

Charles,

There's clearly nothing wrong with your headline to this article. The ascendancy of Islamism in the mosques is an enormous problem. The issue I have is generally when a few derogatory posters take it as evidence of widespread indifference, support or submission to these people, or the suggestion that they overwhelm British culture and we have no gumption to fight it. Those posters sustain the notion by pointing to the LLL as if they were an exclusively British impediment to tackling the issue. If it were so we would not have as many informative reports on the subject from the admittedly wavering Newsnight, Dispatches and Panorama programs, for example. Ignoring the global nature of Islamist plans and instead finding Britain a useful scapegoat as some posters do, does nothing to solve the problem and extends from patriotic joshing to spiteful insults. I don't think you do that - in fact I find you rather respectful of the alliance and impressive in your coverage of Britain. Our massive problem is that Islamism is a growing presence within our large Islamic communities. I am perfectly happy for you to emphasise this. Some of the posters here today are full of such bile, and I don't really see the need.

Nicely put. I don't get upset either. Depressed maybe. Disgusted with my government and European appeasement perhaps. Ten years of socialism and this is our reward. I do get irritated by some of the half wits that seem to think the BBC/Liberal media represent all British people. Or others who take every opportunity to lambast the British.

I admit there are racists and anti Semites in Britain. By the same token I have met Americans who hold equally disgusting views. Does this make all Americans anti-Semitic racists? Some of you people really need to get out more.

As to the long term I am not optimistic. The process of absorption/takeover is long term and these things creep up so that there is no natural tipping point. However I think a stage could very well be reached where a politically extreme party could come to power. Who would have predicted the events in Germany in the early thirties would lead to the deaths of millions? (other than Churchill perhaps?)

180 JonR  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:10:44am

MattMacD,

When we see that the MAJORITY of the UK is anti radical Islam, that it is pro Israel, that it is standing up for its own culture, history and future, we will bind with you and we will be hand in glove as we were in the past. From what we see now, this is not the case so if you have a "silent majority", you need to get them off their apathetic ass and save your country. The same can be said for the USA too. We need to clean up our own broken political system and recognize Islam for what it really is; the antithesis of all Western civilization. You Brits would do well to do the same and we hope you do.

181 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:11:46am

#155 MattMacD 9/07/07 10:23:55 am reply quote report


Hey - we agree that hating America is stupid. Can you guys now get that hating Britain is stupid?
When our politics are dominated by the left, of course it's going to look like we've all given up and are all set to become the latest Islamic state.

But I'm telling you now, nothing could be further from the truth. Many of us are fighting day in, day out against the political correctness that is destroying our society.
Could we get a little support from our american allies, please?

Britain is not our enemy, the left and islamofascism everywhere (including here) is. As long as those of us that all want the same thing keep fighting each other, it will be used as one of many tools against us. W are handing them that tool.

182 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:14:18am

#153 formercorpsman 9/07/07 10:21:41 am reply quote report

I am very concerned for Britain.

That's fine. I am too. Just save some of that concern for your own country. You're going to need it.

183 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:14:58am
W are handing them that tool.

We are handing them that tool.

184 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:19:44am

re: #162 abu_garcia

I have tried to post a couple of comments at the Timesonline and they have not appeared. Does anyone know if they have LGF links tagged and blocked?

My posts often don't seem to show up there either.
Occasionally it's justifed. I made a recent stupid post and was glad it didn't get posted. :p
But otherwise... I really don't know why it happens. Maybe server problems. Maybe inconsistent moderating.
Posts don't show up immediately, btw the way. They have to get "approved". I really don't like that type of moderation.

re: #179 Call me Infidel

Nicely put. I don't get upset either. Depressed maybe. Disgusted with my government and European appeasement perhaps. Ten years of socialism and this is our reward. I do get irritated by some of the half wits that seem to think the BBC/Liberal media represent all British people. Or others who take every opportunity to lambast the British.

I admit there are racists and anti Semites in Britain. By the same token I have met Americans who hold equally disgusting views. Does this make all Americans anti-Semitic racists? Some of you people really need to get out more.

As to the long term I am not optimistic. The process of absorption/takeover is long term and these things creep up so that there is no natural tipping point. However I think a stage could very well be reached where a politically extreme party could come to power. Who would have predicted the events in Germany in the early thirties would lead to the deaths of millions? (other than Churchill perhaps?)

I'm not particularly optimistic about the future of Britain, either.* Me and my wife are thinking about having a child - if Britain continues down its current track, I absolutely do not want that child to grow up here.
Things might change with a Churchill-type in power. I have been seeing, in the comments on UK newspaper websites comments, a fast growing support for the BNP. Personally, I don't agree with that, because the BNP has been quite anti-Israel. They've recently changed their tune regarding Israel, but that's just their trying to capitalise on the support they're getting.
I don't want them to get power. But I recognise that most are voting for them just as a protest vote, to try and wake up the leftist politicians of this country (even in the "conservative" party). Will it work? I don't know.

*though I would appreciate support... well, we have the support of most here, so, I don't think I really need to say that now.

185 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:20:48am

re: #180 JonR

MattMacD,

When we see that the MAJORITY of the UK is anti radical Islam, that it is pro Israel, that it is standing up for its own culture, history and future, we will bind with you and we will be hand in glove as we were in the past. From what we see now, this is not the case so if you have a "silent majority", you need to get them off their apathetic ass and save your country. The same can be said for the USA too. We need to clean up our own broken political system and recognize Islam for what it really is; the antithesis of all Western civilization. You Brits would do well to do the same and we hope you do.

We're trying friend, we're trying.

186 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:21:56am

re: #184 MattMacD

btw the way.

Lolz.
That typo is so obvious I don't know if I really need to correct myself.

187 abu_garcia  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:27:26am

re: #184 MattMacD

They have to get "approved". I really don't like that type of moderation.


What I said was definitely not intentionally inflammatory or unkind to anyone, but might not toe the official line. I notice that most of the negative comments that get posted seem to be a bit off the wall. In light of my posts not making it (and this is by no means the first time) one might believe that the "off the wall" posts are allowed to serve as "bad examples" of un-PC thinking but if one actually has something to say it is not welcome.

188 Dom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:28:08am

Thanks to the above five posters, and respect to all LGFers, and especially to Charles.

189 Dom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:28:53am

re: #188 DomMake that 6 and counting.

190 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:31:21am

re: #184 MattMacD

I think there's change acoming. Labour has always depended on Scottish MP's for gaining power. Scottish Labour have always had the Catholic vote here but there has been recent high level voices in the church that are distancing themselves from Labour and criticising their policies. A link is here. I can see the Labour support in Scotland collapsing.

191 TalkinKamel  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:47:09am

Every time Charles runs a thread about the Islamic problem in Britain, we always get the same thing---flame wars, and fights revolving around "Britain isn't like that! Yes she is! No she isn't!" and serious topics get swept completely off the board, while everybody snipes at each other over whether or not we're being unfair to poor ol' Britain.

Let's admit that:

1. Britain does have a problem.

2. Your problem is that you have a great many Islamofacists, openly plotting against both your government, and the United States; mad mullahs calling for the overthrow of the West, yoots running around with bombs and going off to enlist with the Taliban, etc. However the ordinary Brit feels about this, the British government doesn't seem inclined to do a damn thing about this, except become more "sensitive", and fight "Islamophobia". They can't even bring themselves to kick the insane mullahs and yoots off the British dole, which would go a long way right there to ending a lot of this c***p. Instead, leaders, such as Red Ken and Prince Chuckles (whom a lot of people suspect has already converted to Islam) seem intent on actually supporting the Islamists. (And, remember, it's the Red Kens and Prince Chuckle-heads we yanks mostly read about in the papers, or see on TV.)

This is a problem for Americans, because. . .

3. You Brits, up until now, have been our steadfast allies. If we lose you, yes, we're going to be upset.

4. Also, because the very Islamofacists who make problems for you, might also start making problems for us. If some of these terrorists from Britain start attacking Americans, and American interests in other countries, yes, we won't like it, and yes, we will have to do something about it. If you don't want us doing something about it, then please, you do something about it first!

5. The accusations of anti-semetism are, to some extent valid. A lot of Brits (Not the ones who post on LGF, of course) do seem to be carrying a grudge against Israel, as if they've never forgiven it for breaking away from English rule; also, as if they're still hankering after some vision of the "noble" Moslem warrior left over from their colonial glory days, Lawrence of Arabia, Saladin the unbelievably noble allegedly sending peaches and snow to Dickie Lionheart, blah, blah, blah, zub, zub, zub. Guys, please get over it! Focus on what's happening now! The Israelis are the west's friends. The current gallery of freaks running the Islamic world and trying to terrorize us all so that we'll submit to their dream of the caliphate, aren't. Tattoo this on your foreheads, memorize it, remember it.

So, in conclusion:

6. If the average Brit doesn't like this, he's going to have to work hard and fast to get rid of his socialist government, the mad mullahs, the Red Ken sellouts, and he's going to have to do it quickly, and he's going to have to try to do it without falling prey to the opposite form of extremism---although, quite frankly guys, the longer you dither, the harder it's going to be, and the less likely it is that you'll succeed.

I don't envy you guys. You do have a hard fight ahead of you.

(And yes, we Americans have problems too, but I don't think ours, bad though they are, are quite as advanced as yours, though they might get there. For one thing, our government isn't quite as socialist as yours is as the moment.)

192 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:01:15pm
193 Wishbone  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:17:31pm

Buzzsawmonkey

Your comments above have been a pleasure to read, mate. Thank you very much.

So here's a strange little tale:

I work in a storage warehouse on the outskirts of town in a fairly new job. We have a retail outlet smack dab in the middle of the town centre and I had occasion to make a delivery there the other day. I'd not been there before and the lads I work with are yapping away about who's who and whatknot, when one of them refers to one of the shop workers as such-and-such a name: the 'Jewish' kid.

So I asked, why the 'Jewish' kid? Was that the only way he could be defined in conversation? Usually, in Liverpool, the only thing people give a real toss about is whether you're a 'Red', or a (spit) 'Blue', so I was a little apprehensive about so pointed a reference. The answer I got was, essentially, 'You'll see'

I suppose it all became crystal clear when, having a quiet smoke at the loading dock with a couple of the shop lads, this young lad wanders in off his dinner break and exuberantly declares 'Shalom MuthaF***s!'

I thiink I hurt myself laughing. I don't think there's a person that this mental little bugger meets who is not instantly aware of the fact of him being Jewish. He's quite shameless about it too. He has some success with the girls out on the town. Apparently, there's rather a lot of gentile girls that have 'heard something' about Jewish boys and seem quite curious as to the validity of whatever exactly it was they'd heard.

Really nice kid, but utterly shameless.

194 Dom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:18:57pm

buzzsawmonkey, you certainly do. :-)

TalkinKamel, Livingstone has some powers and is terrible, but Charles is not a "leader", presently at least, and in honesty is probably not a Muslim either; and that stuff about bemoaning the loss of empire is a generally untrue American meme serving to consign our status to that of a has-been; progress on this issue is largely hard to gauge, being a matter for intelligence and the police, but there is clearly a problem - I for one am glad The Times has outlined it and would be interested to know what headway Deobandis and Salafis have made on your side of the pond; other aspects of your post are spot on, and your concern is appreciated. This alliance has to last a long time yet - probably even moreso if we are on a slippery slope. My reading is that this report implies we have been too apathetic and allowed the Islamist campaign a lot of room for manouevre over a long time, but gives no insight into policies presently underway. We cannot physically stop kids attending events and encountering material that puts them on the path to radicalism until we find a formula for halting the flow of extremist incitement and promoting moderation. To be victorious, either things escalate (perhaps via 9/11-style terrorism and perhaps more subtly) to the point where Britain's stance becomes aggressive, or else superlative intelligence and ingenious policies serve to pinpoint the source of the problem and make liberalism attractive. Either way results will take time. Even at your end the feeling seems to be that things may get worse before they get any better.

195 uptight  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:26:50pm

Charles - it's not YOU that I get pissed off with. It's the lizards who take the "Britain's Huge Problems" headline as a cue to impugn the UK and mock the Brits as spineless dhimmis.

Like all Western countries we are facing Islamification by political and social means.

I once responded to a holier-than-thou American LGFer by saying "Let he who is without Shehan cast the first stone.

I wasn't saying "yeah? well I think America is shit". I was saying "hey - you've got Shehan's, we've got Galloways - we are both facing the same enemies and we should fight together".

I see LGF as a vital tool in this fight. Keep on doing what you're doing...and to everyone else - don't think for a moment that Britain is alone in having these problems (most stories on LGF aren't about the UK) and don't think that most Brits have no desire to fight the enemy.

196 IVAN SIRKO  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:27:05pm

Socialism and multiculturalism have rotted the soul of England to the point that they have lost all understanding of and pride in their heritage. People will not stand and fight for something that not only they don't believe in but have been raised to hold in contempt . Evan if a Drake,Pitt,Wellington or a Churchill would rise up and called them to arms and battle. I fear that to few would remember their ancient courage.Those few that do raise the old battle cry of St. Gorge and England will be drowned out by those that cry out for peace at any price .Not to mention the cries 0f allah akbar,from the new masters and overlords of not so merry ole England.

197 uptight  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:35:57pm

re: #191 TalkinKamel

You're more or less spot on, here.

198 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:38:22pm
199 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:44:33pm

I would just like to stand counted as another American who hasn't thrown his hands in the air declared my cousins across the sea 'doomed, doomed I tellsya'.

We have a common cause, as we have many problems in common. I pray that your countrymen will wake up just as I pray for mine to do the same.

We are handing them that tool.

There is a reason that U.S. soldiers were reprimanded for saying "The British will fight to the last American". It destroys solidarity between allies. Let us stop handing the enemy these tools.

200 funkyfantom  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:51:02pm

re: #193 Wishbone

Buzzsawmonkey

Your comments above have been a pleasure to read, mate. Thank you very much.

So here's a strange little tale:

I work in a storage warehouse on the outskirts of town in a fairly new job. We have a retail outlet smack dab in the middle of the town centre and I had occasion to make a delivery there the other day. I'd not been there before and the lads I work with are yapping away about who's who and whatknot, when one of them refers to one of the shop workers as such-and-such a name: the 'Jewish' kid.

So I asked, why the 'Jewish' kid? Was that the only way he could be defined in conversation? Usually, in Liverpool, the only thing people give a real toss about is whether you're a 'Red', or a (spit) 'Blue', so I was a little apprehensive about so pointed a reference. The answer I got was, essentially, 'You'll see'

I suppose it all became crystal clear when, having a quiet smoke at the loading dock with a couple of the shop lads, this young lad wanders in off his dinner break and exuberantly declares 'Shalom MuthaF***s!'

I thiink I hurt myself laughing. I don't think there's a person that this mental little bugger meets who is not instantly aware of the fact of him being Jewish. He's quite shameless about it too. He has some success with the girls out on the town. Apparently, there's rather a lot of gentile girls that have 'heard something' about Jewish boys and seem quite curious as to the validity of whatever exactly it was they'd heard.

Really nice kid, but utterly shameless.

See, if you were saying he was shameless about calling people "MuthaF***s", that's one thing. But you said he was shameless about being Jewish.

Pardon me, but what is wrong with that? Is he supposed to be ashamed at being Jewish? What is this- the England of 1521?
I thought we were in the twenty-first century?

201 therewaslight  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 12:52:17pm

I wonder if Charles knows what proportion of LGF readers are from the UK. I suspect it's quite high.

I post to a British message forum where discussion of immigration/religion has been banned & one poster was banned for saying something equivalent to a LGF headline.

Americans need to understand the Brits like Christopher Hitchens find it much easier to speak out in America or on American forums than in Britain or on British forums because of unofficial censorship.

Mounting resistance is simply difficult or impossible with censorship.

Political correctness has hijacked the British class system. Some things are not "done" in public, currently it is not done to tell the truth about muslim extremism and immigration.

The British middle class look to the upper class to set the rules. The ultimate British class institution Al-Beeb is where most Brits get their socialist RDA.

We need a change of government to disband the BBC and stop the propaganda as I don't imagine it's possible for any taxpayer funded insitution to not be institutionally socialist.

202 therewaslight  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:00:26pm

Did I forget to say Britain also needs to get out of the EU? Britiain needs to get out of the EU.

Polls show 80% of the public want a referendum on the EU Reform Treaty Constitution but, as an example of unofficial censorship and socialist authoritarianism, Gordon Brown has rejected all calls. Even though this breaks Labour's manifesto commitment for the 2005 election.

The British people are not lost - Britain might be because its leadership is.

203 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:05:29pm

I just finished reading "Londonistan" by Melanie Phillips. What she reported is chilling. The British public really has a warped view of the islamist threat, the arab/Israeli conflict, and the war in Iraq. And unlike in the US where we have alternative voices that allow us to hear both sides of key issues, the British voices who oppose the dominant leftist dogma have little or no opportunity to be heard. It is far worse than I had imagined. I used to think the Brits would eventually stand up to the islamists as they stood up to hitler in WW-2. But now I'd say there's very little chance of that happening. The Brits are committing national suicide and they don't even realize it.

204 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:11:14pm

re: #200 funkyfantom

Wishbone was talking about the wee lads behaviour in a good natured way, like he is a cheeky wee monkey having the brasser (brass neck) to do things as blatant as he does.

205 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:11:47pm

Brits that are on LGF.

My take is pretty much the same as [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

What I would like to see from the lgf brits that post here is links to show or perhaps things you are seeing over there when Charles posts these britain things that you are indeed fighting this. I'm not saying this snottily, I truly want to see a beakon of light come from the brits and I rely on lgf brits to show it.

America is dissed here as well in many more threads let me tell you...but there are a number of Americans that set the record straight by showing groups or share that are opposing what is going on to fight said issue.

If the brits go down, the usa isn't all that far behind...and that is where some of the fear talk is coming from (not justifying it, just explaining it). It's easier to see it in the UK because their land mass is much much much smaller than the USA.

We NEED our allies to fight this. Whenever they win against islamification, it helps we Americans to fight our gov't too by saying..see see..britain and australia are fighting it too.

206 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:17:04pm

re: #205 Highrise

I know where you're coming from and I feel the same way but the only people are taking on radical Islam at the moment are the BNP. They claim to be anti-muslim yet won't give 100% support to Israel. Until they do, I can't believe that they have given up their anti-semetic past.

207 robert in england  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:20:07pm

I will fight them, I will never submit to the arseholes for allah.
It would be nice to think that there would be some Americans backing me up, but I wont hold my breath, judging from some of the commenters lately.
To busy going 'we told you so' and being smug with your glowing righteousness.
When we fought the Kaiser in 1914, you turned up in 1918
When we fought the Nazis in 1939, you turned up in 1942
We fought with you in Korea, we also have Vietnam veterans
You'd never think it to hear Americans.
I'll settle for help from the Hindus and Sikhs, who hate the [bigoted word]s
You settle back and wait for another hollyweird movie telling you how wonderful you are and how crappy we are.
I notice when you want help anywhere, you dont call France.
Fuck Off

208 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:31:06pm
209 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:42:58pm
210 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:48:26pm

#207 robert in england 9/07/07 1:20:07 pm reply quote report

I will fight them, I will never submit to the arseholes for allah.
It would be nice to think that there would be some Americans backing me up, but I wont hold my breath, judging from some of the commenters lately.
To busy going 'we told you so' and being smug with your glowing righteousness.
When we fought the Kaiser in 1914, you turned up in 1918
When we fought the Nazis in 1939, you turned up in 1942
We fought with you in Korea, we also have Vietnam veterans
You'd never think it to hear Americans.
I'll settle for help from the Hindus and Sikhs, who hate the Muslims
You settle back and wait for another hollyweird movie telling you how wonderful you are and how crappy we are.
I notice when you want help anywhere, you dont call France.
Fuck Off

I totally can see why you would think this way. It's not that much different than how the different branches of the U.S. military insult each other. To hear some Army people talk, you'd think the Air Force was as useless as tits on a bull. When it comes down to it though, we're all on the same team.

It is frustrating to see Great Britain go down this road and I think that is where the anger comes from. It is happening here though too and only getting worse. We're on the same side. Once the American revolution and the little 1812 thing was over, we've been on the same side since and I do believe the U.S. will always be there GB. We cannot however, continue to bear an unfair burden fighting the global WOT. GB and the west in general has as much to lose as we do so they should be shedding their share of blood and spending their share of national treasure and I think the U.S. has been leaned on too much to bear the burden of fighting the global war on terror. That's where the anger comes from. It's as if some of the Canadians and Europeans act like they are doing us a big favor by helping us fight the GWOT. They aren't doing us a favor We should be in this together because we all have just as much to lose.

211 humanity  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:49:10pm

re: #73 wanumba

Well wahabis came from Indian Muslims...
Aurangzeb killed millions of hindus, and sent missionaries to expand its ideology to middle east... one of the student of those missionaries was Al-Wahhab... founder of wahhabism...

and Deobandis were formed in indian subcontient to tackle Christanity... as entry in india had destroyed the Wahhabis dream, that was to islamize india... a dream which they were unable to fulfill in 10 centuries of islamic invasion...

212 robert in england  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:52:56pm

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

re: #207 robert in england


When we fought the Kaiser in 1914, you turned up in 1918

1917, sweets.

And unlike WWII, it wasn't our fight.


Funny that, Woodrow Wilson didn't think so, remember the Lusitania?
WW also stuck his oar in to the Versailles treaty, he certainly thought the US had a dog in the fight then.
You coming over when it kicks off then?

213 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:55:06pm

re: #208 ploome hineni

It's just good natured banter between blokes.

214 Acidtrash  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:56:44pm

I know some of our British readers get upset when I use a title like “Britain’s Enormous Problem,”

Yes we do. We know where to put an apostrophe. Or is my irony chip blown?

215 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:59:09pm

re: #208 ploome hineni

BTW, wot has a brass monkey got to do with it?

216 Cry of defiance and not of fear  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 1:59:32pm

Several Lizards have mentioned the PC culture in Britain which makes posting informative comments on blogsites and newspapers there very difficult and this is actually the central problem: the Brits are not cowardly, indifferent, disinterested or stupid. They are, to a very great extent, deliberately kept uninformed.

We're so accustomed to trading information, providing links and suggesting reading material to one another on this superb site that we tend to assume (at least where the Brits are concerned) that they must, also, be fully knowledgeable. Yet, I constantly read here of Lizards' exasperation with their own friends, family, workmates over Islam. We have infinitely more media resources here and a far greater propensity for open, public discourse. They don't.

I, too, post comments on Timesonline or at the Daily Telegraph or Daily Mail and I know columnists there. They personally are not uninformed but I've come to realise that the one thing no newspaper in Britain is prepared to print is a full expose of Islam's doctrines, Muhammad's warlordship and the imperialistic history of Islam's conquests. Any attempt to state verbatim verses from the Koran and the ahadith is almost always ignored because that would completely demolish the 'religion of peace hijacked by a few extremists' premise on which the British press (and the British government) seem to believe the peace of the nation depends.

However, as Macmillan said, "Events, dear boy, events." The TIMES report comprised several stories, I've read all the readers' comments on each one. Anger and frustration, a dangerous coupling. Someone in the British press has to break ranks and tell the truth before the population growth of Moslems tips the situation into a true civil war or the grip of sharia renders parts of England, as France, into 'no-go' enclaves.

The Brits are neither unaware of, nor indifferent to, their nation's present self-destructive path. They need support, knowledge and a leader. And a few prayers wouldn't go amiss, either.

217 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:02:10pm

re: #207 robert in england

I will fight them, I will never submit to the arseholes for allah.
It would be nice to think that there would be some Americans backing me up, but I wont hold my breath, judging from some of the commenters lately.
To busy going 'we told you so' and being smug with your glowing righteousness.
When we fought the Kaiser in 1914, you turned up in 1918
When we fought the Nazis in 1939, you turned up in 1942
We fought with you in Korea, we also have Vietnam veterans
You'd never think it to hear Americans.
I'll settle for help from the Hindus and Sikhs, who hate the Muslims
You settle back and wait for another hollyweird movie telling you how wonderful you are and how crappy we are.
I notice when you want help anywhere, you dont call France.
Fuck Off

Anti-US sentiments are just as pointless as anti-UK sentiments. For me, it isn't actually about nationality. It's about western democracy. And we should all be allies in that fight, others might try to keep us seperated (including some here), but we should be fighting to keep the links strong.

The more people try to seperate the US and UK, the weaker we will both become. To me it is like athiests (non-lefty ones, I mean) and christians who refuse to work together against the threat of Islam. We all just need to get over our differences and realise we're on the same side, trying to defend that which gives us our freedom against that which would take it away.

218 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:09:59pm
219 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:11:30pm
220 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:12:46pm
221 cry of defiance and not of fear  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:19:52pm

re: #220 ploome hineni

And the USA wouldn't be the nation it is if it hadn't been for a great many people whose beliefs, ideals and love of liberty were nurtured in and by the Mother Country of England.

222 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:24:40pm
223 robert in england  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:27:49pm

re: #218 buzzsawmonkey

re: #212 robert in england

Well, I'm not old enough to actually remember the Lusitania (a British passenger ship which was carrying munitions, thereby intentionally putting the passengers at risk). I do recall reports of the incident, though.

Yes, Woodrow Wilson considered the US had earned a place at the Treaty of Versailles peace table, and rightly so; the US had bailed out the British and French armies. Lloyd George and Clemenceau were well aware of this; that, and the popular enthusiasm for Wilson's Fourteen Points, gave him and the US pride of place. Wilson was, alas, stupid enough to give the British and the French control of the Middle East; if he hadn't, things would be very different today.

Wilson threw his hands up in horror at the idea of actually doing things in the ME himself, not unlike Teddy Roosevelt before him. No Americans have ever done more than talk about it.
As usual, we ended up trying to sort out everyone elses mess, and being hated by both sides as a result. We will pass over our attempts to achieve justice being deliberately sabotaged by the French (Lebanon). This with the Lusitania carrying munitions was I believe exposed long since as German propoganda designed to cover their u-boat sinking a passenger liner without warning.

224 Lombard1985  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:28:07pm

re: #199 Slumbering Behemoth

Count me in too!

re: #207 robert in england

Rob, believe it or not, I have seriously entertained the thought of going to help my European bretheren when conflict breaks out...notice I said 'when' not if.

Also, keep in mind that America was very isolationist during those periods that you mentioned, and it wasn't until we got hit in late '41 that we realized that we couldn't hide our heads in the sand any longer.

225 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:35:46pm
226 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:37:02pm

re: #219 ploome hineni

Yer patter's like toothpaste, it comes out a choob.

BTW, I'm not Catholic.

227 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:39:38pm
228 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:42:33pm
229 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:45:08pm

re: #225 ploome hineni

another Brit hater?

Nope, another person you should be acknowledging the existence of instead of assuming all brits are lefties who hate jews.

230 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:45:42pm
231 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:46:51pm

re: #228 ploome hineni

Nah, you took something that was a bit of banter and light-hearted and changed it to something that you thought that would offend me as I posted a link about the Scottish Catholic church to suit your own twisted logic to convict me of anti-semitism.

I'm not going to say anything because in your mind as I'm British, I'm guilty.

232 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:48:30pm
233 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:49:42pm

re: #232 ploome hineni

Do you have a sense of humour?

234 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:55:33pm
235 Lombard1985  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 2:56:27pm

re: #230 ploome hineni

ploome,

I may not have been around awhile, but you have a problem.

Agitating our British allies for no apparent reason, other than perhaps some sort of sick amusement, is not very becoming. Might I suggest kepping some of your opinions to yourself.

This is but my 2 cents worth, take it or leave it.

236 wishbone  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:03:57pm

re: #200 funkyfantom

See, if you were saying he was shameless about calling people "MuthaF***s", that's one thing. But you said he was shameless about being Jewish.

Where there's ambiguity, you raise the question. That's fair enough.

Pardon me, but what is wrong with that? Is he supposed to be ashamed at being Jewish? What is this- the England of 1521?
I thought we were in the twenty-first century?

Then in the next breath, in the absence of any reply, you continue on the assumption of negative bias. Why ask the question if you feel you already know the answer?

Let me clear this up for you: 'Shameless' in the sense that the lad was rather adept in arousing female curiosity about a specific part of his Jewish identity in order to facilitate that activity usually known in Britain as 'Getting ones leg over.'

Also, bear in mind that in Britain the term 'Shameless' is, colloquially, neither inherently positive nor negative. It all depends on context.

237 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:15:26pm

#214 Acidtrash 9/07/07 1:56:44 pm

I know some of our British readers get upset when I use a title like “Britain’s Enormous Problem,”

Yes we do. We know where to put an apostrophe. Or is my irony chip blown?

Not quite following you on that one. The apostrophe in Britain's is because Britain is singular, as in one country. Now, I went to public school so maybe I've been wrong all these years but the proper use of the apostrophe is:

1) When used to replace letters as conjunctions as in don't for do not.

2) For showing possession like the girl's dress. If it is singular it is girl's and if it is more than one girl then it is girls'.

3) Exceptions to the possessive apostrophe are it, hers, ours, yours, etc. For example, the shirt lost its color.

238 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:21:30pm

re: #234 buzzsawmonkey

re: #235 Lombard1985

She's just fishing to see who takes the bait.

239 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:26:40pm
240 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:30:28pm
241 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:35:11pm

I realize I got into this thread mega late...but I've been in many UK threads and yet to have brits acknowledge my take on this...not that I SHOULD be acknowledged but it IS a valid take:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I don't get it..I want LGF brits to show us what they are doing. I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS..but I DO acknowledge that does not also mean that it ISN'T happening either. I'm not saying this from the standpoint that YOU need to show us..but that I would like to see the light on in UK and that people are actively fighting this.

Instead..the entire thread turns into a to hell with you USA..to hell with you Brits and that gets us NOWHERE. Fault is on both sides of course I realize for that argument..but I think my argument to brits if very fair and yet it is mainly ignored. That is why I have shrinking hopes that brits will turn out ok in the end. I TRULY want them to...but the no answers do bother me. Refer to my link up there for specifics of what I'm looking for.

242 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:36:20pm
243 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:36:39pm
244 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:37:04pm

re: #240 buzzsawmonkey
A more appropos quote, regarding Ploome's arrogance (see quotes about the millionaire whose plane crashed (5SEP), which brand of Judaism is correct (6SEP, is she the Jewish "pope"), multiple antiCatholic comments, need I go on?)...is Walter Scott's "The wretch conceited all in self...".

245 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:39:09pm
246 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:45:03pm

re: #242 ploome hineni

and how I am branded a hater for pointing it out, and trying to provoke some reaction to this antisemitism

which they continue to ignore and deny, or belittle, while creating a straw man, about me hating the British

which theme you have joyfully picked up to carry for them

I do not hate the Brits...

I watch with detached fascination at their self destruction, due in no small part to their preference for the arab/muslim, and hypocracy

at the expense of the Jews...who have struggled to contribute and above all, be included as British..to small avail


How about you acknowledge all of us here on in LGF who are absolutely pro-Israel and pro-jew, and stop assuming because we are brits, with british culture, we must be anti-semitic?
How about you acknowledge that just because the leadership and "intellectuals" in this country are largely anti-semitic, DOESN'T MEAN THE AVERAGE PEOPLE ARE?

My family, my whole family, not just the ones who live in this house, are FULLY BRITISH, and not one of them is anti-semitic.
So cut the bullshit.
We all recognise there is far too much anti-semitism in this country, and in modern british culture. WE KEEP SAYING IT. You keep ignoring us saying it, and keep assuming we ignore the anti-semitism because we also hate jews.
Strawman? No, it's pretty obvious you will not change your mind about hating (yes, that is what you do) the british based on the anti-semitic left (which exists in America as well, btw), no matter what is said to you.

I watched "The War on Britain's Jews", by Richard Littlejohn. Oh, did you know Richard Littlejohn is BRITISH? And that plenty of people who watched that were also EQUALLY disgusted, as you are, by the anti-semitism in this country?
Or are those people just not british, to you?

247 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:47:39pm

re: #223 robert in england

America, it seems is awful slow to rise up and to anger, but despite the "late" entries into the recent European unpleasantnesses, we did come. also, there was a strong contingent of US citizens who advocated earlier entry into both of these wars. BTW, when war was declared in 1914, two of my great uncles, born in Canada, but US citizens, volunteered to fight for "King and Country". Both fought with a Canadian unit (38th ONT) and one died at Vimy Ridge. It sometimes takes us a while, but we usually end up doing the right thing. Please hang tough until the rest of America wakes up.
I think a lot of the anti-Brit stuff is based on the fact that Britain is not perceived as an ultra-friend of Israel. Harking back to the expulsion of the Jews from England and the 13th century is not really defensible. States, as Washington pointed out, have permanent interests, not permanent friends.

248 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:50:25pm

re: #245 ploome hineni

Exposing a cockroach is not hard. When the cockroach runs from the light, the nature of the cockroach is shown, not the nature of the person shining the light.

249 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:51:23pm
250 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:52:40pm

re: #249 ploome hineni

re: #248 grumpy old codger

why do you call yourself a cockroach?

Thanks for ignoring me once again showing how you are wrong about all brits, and all of british culture, being anti-semitic.

re: #229 MattMacD

re: #225 ploome hineni

another Brit hater?

Nope, another person you should be acknowledging the existence of instead of assuming all brits are lefties who hate jews.

Missed that post too. Could it be you just don't like the truth?

251 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:53:09pm

re: #246 MattMacD

Don't waste your breath mate. In her mind, every Brit is presumed guilty of being a rabid jew-hater and no matter what you say won't make any difference as you're already convicted.

252 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:53:41pm

re: #249 ploome hineni
A simple response from what is apparently, having read your vitriol for a long time, a simple mind. Is there anyone you don't hate? Catholics, Reform and Conservative Jews?
Maybe you should take the advice offered to Job, "Curse God and die."

253 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:56:32pm

re: #251 cagney

She never met a human being she liked.

254 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:58:42pm

#241 Highrise 9/07/07 3:35:11 pm reply quote report

Instead..the entire thread turns into a to hell with you USA..to hell with you Brits and that gets us NOWHERE. Fault is on both sides of course I realize for that argument..but I think my argument to brits if very fair and yet it is mainly ignored. That is why I have shrinking hopes that brits will turn out ok in the end. I TRULY want them to...but the no answers do bother me. Refer to my link up there for specifics of what I'm looking for.

What I find amazing is how there can be so many people out there that truly believe that all of the world's problems can be solved through holdig discussions. I think talking things out has been highly over-rated. How many problems have ever been solved by talking things out? Conflicts end when one side either gives up or gives in.

Political blogs are perfect examples. How many conflicts end up with everyone agreeing as opposed to people telling each other to 'F' off? Even among people who are like minded about the things that really matter. Yet, we are supposed to send our diplomats to go and engage in discussions to solve problems with heads of states where much of the population hates us and wants to see us dead? So much so that many of them are willing to kill themselves to kill us.

255 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 3:58:45pm

re: #251 cagney

re: #246 MattMacD

Don't waste your breath mate. In her mind, every Brit is presumed guilty of being a rabid jew-hater and no matter what you say won't make any difference as you're already convicted.

Yeah, I'm getting that now.
Still, wanted to try. I honestly want Britain to be more welcoming to jews, I despair at the current state of things in this country. It doesn't help if people just write off our cause (fighting for Israel) as if it's a waste of time, or as if we're not even trying.
Just sad, the whole thing.

256 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:02:45pm

re: #254 AirForceWife

As Bismarck said, "The great issues of our time will be solved by blood and iron..." As this Bs about discussing things will not change the obvious.

257 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:03:12pm

#247 grumpy old codger 9/07/07 3:47:39 pm reply quote report

re: #223 robert in england

America, it seems is awful slow to rise up and to anger, but despite the "late" entries into the recent European unpleasantnesses, we did come. also, there was a strong contingent of US citizens who advocated earlier entry into both of these wars. BTW, when war was declared in 1914, two of my great uncles, born in Canada, but US citizens, volunteered to fight for "King and Country". Both fought with a Canadian unit (38th ONT) and one died at Vimy Ridge. It sometimes takes us a while, but we usually end up doing the right thing. Please hang tough until the rest of America wakes up.

And during the time that we were not technically in the war, our pilots and other military members were going to fight with Canadian and British units.

258 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:04:42pm

re: #255 MattMacD

She has a lot of good things to say but once she gets that bee in her bonnet about us Brits you've just got to ignore her.

259 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:05:55pm

re: #257 AirForceWife

Dad was doing anti-submarine and anti-mine patrols in the North Atlantic. Anti-sub meaning they weren't officially shooting (though he said they fired off a few shots) and were communicating positions to UK vessels. Really, not the act of a "neutral" when you think about it.

260 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:06:10pm

re: #254 AirForceWife

I am one that thinks there will come a time when the USA will undergo another civil war of some type. Dunno when, dunno if it'll be in my lifetime...

I now consider democrats an enemy, never before Have I ever until the last few years...they have PEGGED so far left that I would expect a knife in the back to save their own lives...that isn't the America I grew up with...and there will be a clash...one day. My heart is heavy in that regard...but what happens happens. Que sera sera.

261 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:07:37pm

re: #258 cagney

It's not just the Brits. she's got a whole list of things she hates. Guess today, you just made the daily "peeve".

262 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:09:35pm

re: #261 grumpy old codger

I usually keep well out of the way but I swallowed the bait.

263 wishbone  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:09:39pm

re: #241 Highrise

Highrise, I appreciate what it is you're saying, but not everything can be conveyed with a handy link. None of our media outlets have so far managed to convey the gaping chasm that has opened up between the people, government and huge sections of that same media. We can't provide you with links that prove the ugly mood in the pub that night when such and such a subject came up. There are no links to our personal judgements upon the level of 'Pissed off' our people are feeling. We're actually here to relate those things to those of other nations who genuinely seek assurance that we Brits are not asleep at the wheel...

...Our government and liberal classes, yes. That lot are not merely asleep at the wheel, they're driving down the wrong side of the street while smashed on crack.

Do try to understand that Brits will deal with things in their own way by being...well...British. It's what we know. Britain and the US may be closely related in so many ways in terms of culture and history and many other things, but one thing that is just as true is that we are also worlds apart in many other ways... We think differently mate, trust me on this. I don't know what it is to think American, with all that entails. You don't know what it is to think British.

As I said, we can't give links to things like our perceptions and experiences of the mood on the street, so we relate them as best we can to you.

Just because there's no link to something, it doesn't mean the information holds no value.

264 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:11:06pm

re: #260 Highrise

The "Que sera, sera" attitude has got to go. We cannot sit back and await the arrival of evil. We must attempt to fight it within the restraints of our current situation. If that fails, then force of arms will be needed and I'd rather face them now.

265 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:12:49pm

re: #262 cagney

Welcome to the club, i've bitten a few of her "tempting morsels" also. However, her vitriol is for real and I believe that, if it'd not done for vicarious pleasure, then she is a sick puppy.

266 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:14:27pm

re: #264 grumpy old codger

re: #260 Highrise

The "Que sera, sera" attitude has got to go. We cannot sit back and await the arrival of evil. We must attempt to fight it within the restraints of our current situation. If that fails, then force of arms will be needed and I'd rather face them now.

You misunderstand my que sera sera

It was really in light of the fact that we will have a civil war. I'm not going to start up a civil war call...is all I meant :P but I DO feel it will come to that...and in that regard..que sera sera.

267 Wicksy  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:14:31pm

re: #254 AirForceWife

What I find amazing is how there can be so many people out there that truly believe that all of the world's problems can be solved through holdig discussions. I think talking things out has been highly over-rated. How many problems have ever been solved by talking things out? Conflicts end when one side either gives up or gives in.

I completely agree.

I get very confused when people insist that "war never solved anything!".
Uhhh, yes it did! Don't you remember Hitler, Nazis, WW2?

I also don't believe that our current predicament will be solved without a war. There are millions of people who are hell-bent on our destruction.

They are way past talking. There's only one way left to deal with them, and it doesn't involve a nice chat over a cuppa tea and slice of cake.

268 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:14:42pm

All this talk about Britain being anti-semitic and you know what?...many Jewish people aren't for the Jewish cause. Even in Israel they aren't. I don't see the whole country of Israel being labeled as anti-semitic.

269 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:16:25pm

re: #263 wishbone

As I said, we can't give links to things like our perceptions and experiences of the mood on the street, so we relate them as best we can to you.

Just because there's no link to something, it doesn't mean the information holds no value.

But there were some links. A list of pro-Israel UK sites. ploome hineni herself gave a link to an article BY A BRIT. Then I mentioned a documentary that was on channel 4 - "The War on Britain's Jews".
What more are we supposed to do? When almost the whole media is not *allowed* to directly criticise Islam (and the muslims still constantly complain about the "biased anti-muslim" media!), and yet a documentary like that was aired...
And on many, many (I'd say most? If you ignore the dhimmiBC, the socialist propaganda arm of the wonderful new labour government) newspaper websites, there are constant islamophobic (hehe) comments... well, they don't count, they're not really british, are they?

270 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:20:29pm

re: #264 grumpy old codger

I remember reading a webpage, think it was a commentary about a part of the Talmud that evil most be fought at all costs. The problem is that there is nothing organised over here, once you start thinking that way your head gets messed up.

I've read plenty of news items about 'racist attacks' against Muslims and while I wholeheartedly condemn them because that is not the right thing to do I can't help but think what pressure the bloke was under to go out and attack a complete stranger.

271 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:21:22pm

re: #269 MattMacD

And on many, many (I'd say most? If you ignore the dhimmiBC, the socialist propaganda arm of the wonderful new labour government) newspaper websites, there are constant islamophobic (hehe) comments... well, they don't count, they're not really british, are they?

Just to be clear, I mean the comments in response to the articles.

272 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:21:56pm

#260 Highrise 9/07/07 4:06:10 pm reply quote report

re: #254 AirForceWife

I am one that thinks there will come a time when the USA will undergo another civil war of some type. Dunno when, dunno if it'll be in my lifetime...

I don't think that will happen because we won't be divided along geographical lines. How do I know that the woman standing in line in front of me at the grocery store is a conservative, church-going lady or a Marxists? There are red states and blue states and even red counties and blue counties but within each city in America we have people of all ideologies and value systems. In our civil war, the South was a pretty homogeneous and unified group. It's amazing to think of how outnumbered they were and yet might have won the war. We will never be that unified and homogeneous along geographical boundaries again.

273 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:23:08pm

re: #263 wishbone


I understand. I do.

Here is an example I guess of what I mean:

There is a HUGE push to stop the arabic schools from becoming public paid school funds in USA. Here is the link to the latest bunch of Americans fighting this. For now, they are operating on the NY arabic madrassa that was just set up but they JUST announced on tv here that they plan to go nationwide to usa...yeah!

[Link: stopthemadrassa.wordpress.com...]

In some areas the muslims have got together to create arabic PUBLIC schools that keep things hush hush on what they are teaching, which is against the law..yet the apologists cover for them. But our public IS actively fighting them in court and picketing...and all sorts of things.


I realize this particular entry by Charles there might be difficulting in linking a link...I speak really from the past is all. Are there any groups that are trying to stop the islam creepage in the UK?

We NEED to unite together as part of the west...I want to see the fire in the belly from EVERYONE..no matter where they are in UK, America, Germany, Australia...USA...

There have got to be groups fighting this...there have got to be! That is all I want from our british friends...when they CAN show where they are fighting back by showing a group that is or by telling us what they wrote their representative (not sure how influence from the average citizen works over in the UK).. I want to see it...not because I'm a smug american (which you did not imply of me) but because I care..I really do. I WANT hope. We NEED all our allies if we want to win over this islamist infestation.

Thank you for responding to me.

274 wishbone  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:23:45pm

re: #269 MattMacD

Hehe, perhaps I should have mentioned that there are also actual links to actual info. But there's a lot of things that you won't read of in the national media, nor the local and regional outlets, more often than not.

You're right in that the comments sections in the papers can be a revelation, hehe. Bloody-Mindedness is far from dead and buried here.

275 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:26:24pm

re: #272 AirForceWife


I feel differently than you on this one. I guess maybe it comes from me living in a conservative area near san franciscans. We'll be having issues later...it might not be on the grand scale of civil war..but I do see it getting much much more bloody before this turns around.

I didn't realize that it could possibly turn this bad left. THe past 5 years taught me from viewing this..that NOTHING is impossible..nothing. I would never have guessed how far we have pegged...never in a million years. A clash is going to come...in what fashion, I have no crystal ball, and neither does ANYONE else.

276 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:27:43pm

re: #263 wishbone

To me, thinking American is getting organised. I am amazed when I read about the Rolling Thunder/Gathering of Eagles bike rally to protest against the hippies who were going to deface the Vietnam monument in Washington. When I browse the internet, I see many American Jewish Organisations raising the profile of Jews and Judaism with well made professional looking websites.

Unfortunately there is no grassroots organisation like this in the UK except on the far left and right.

277 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:29:37pm

#273 Highrise 9/07/07 4:23:08 pm reply quote report


There is a HUGE push to stop the arabic schools from becoming public paid school funds in USA. Here is the link to the latest bunch of Americans fighting this. For now, they are operating on the NY arabic madrassa that was just set up but they JUST announced on tv here that they plan to go nationwide to usa...yeah!

[Link: stopthemadrassa.wordpress.com...]

Thanks for that. I just joined their e-mail list and cash will be on the way. As if I didn't have enough causes...LOL.

278 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:31:16pm

re: #277 AirForceWife

haha no kidding hun.

Next paycheck I'm going to send a small amount their way...

bless them :) .

279 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:33:09pm

#275 Highrise 9/07/07 4:26:24 pm reply quote report

re: #272 AirForceWife


I feel differently than you on this one. I guess maybe it comes from me living in a conservative area near san franciscans. We'll be having issues later...it might not be on the grand scale of civil war..but I do see it getting much much more bloody before this turns around.

I didn't realize that it could possibly turn this bad left. THe past 5 years taught me from viewing this..that NOTHING is impossible..nothing. I would never have guessed how far we have pegged...never in a million years. A clash is going to come...in what fashion, I have no crystal ball, and neither does ANYONE else.

I think these kinds of things are too insidious to trigger a tipping point. Those devoted to leftism know that. They know they have to be patient and that their goals for America and the west probably will not be met in their lifetimes but each little cut (in the death by 1000 cuts) gives them immense pleasure because they know what direction we are going and that they are behind the steering wheel.

280 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:35:27pm

re: #276 cagney

re: #263 wishbone

To me, thinking American is getting organised. I am amazed when I read about the Rolling Thunder/Gathering of Eagles bike rally to protest against the hippies who were going to deface the Vietnam monument in Washington. When I browse the internet, I see many American Jewish Organisations raising the profile of Jews and Judaism with well made professional looking websites.

Unfortunately there is no grassroots organisation like this in the UK except on the far left and right.

Cagney,

Those gathering of eagles people are so special. So are our patriotic americans on our border known as Minute men to which our gov't referred to them as *vigilantes*. I was seething. All they do is watch the border, they do not apprehend. Wow, what vigilantes!

I hope britain regular folks fight back...I really do. Otherwise the squeaky wheel is the one that gets the oil. /cry

281 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:37:36pm

re: #279 AirForceWife


I agree the left knows they are in charge and just have to be patient...

I'm seeing the right getting tired of it...just how far it will peg 10, 15, 20, 25 years from now...seriously is ANYONE's guess.

Again, I'm in literal shock and I'm not alone here...at how far we have pegged left in just the last 5 years...

It will be interesting to see how much the right will take. At that time, I'll have to make some hard decisions...but we are a bit off from that yet...I think..but it isn't ruled out imo.

282 wishbone  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:40:02pm

re: #273 Highrise

It's a fair question you pose mate and it deserves a fair answer, though you may find my take on it a tad depressing.

Back in 1997, the country had had enough of the Conservative Party running the country. Thatcher was long gone by then and the bunch in charge had completely lost the trust of the nation. Tony Blair and Labour were voted in comfortably.

Fast forward 10 years...

Labour is now in the, more or less, same position as the Conservatives were back then. Only this time, they don't have an effective opposition with which to be replaced. The Tories under David Cameron are a complete washout. He's started talking something more like a Conservative recently but this may have had something to do with the threat of open rebellion from the party grassroots in the background.

So what all this ineptitude has brought about is what I can only describe as an almost total apathy for politics amongst the British people. Politically, people don't give a toss anymore. They don't even bother voting for the most part these days either.

As I said, it's rather depressing. Until the whole identity of politics in this country changes to the point where people feel they can achieve something by being a part of the process, then this may well continue to breaking point. Dunno what that may be.

283 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:41:21pm

re: #276 cagney

re: #263 wishbone

To me, thinking American is getting organised. I am amazed when I read about the Rolling Thunder/Gathering of Eagles bike rally to protest against the hippies who were going to deface the Vietnam monument in Washington. When I browse the internet, I see many American Jewish Organisations raising the profile of Jews and Judaism with well made professional looking websites.

Unfortunately there is no grassroots organisation like this in the UK except on the far left and right.

Yup. That's one thing I was going to write about here just now.
I think the whole protesting thing is primarily used by the left and muslims here.
The far-left have a history of it, I think, and also like to disrupt everyone else's lives in the process (case in point: recent Heathrow protests, anyone who thought they were assholes for wanting to disrupt thousands of people's lives was branded "selfish").
So protesting typically isn't seen in the same light as it is in America.
That's my view anyway. Am I wrong?
We need to protest more. We need to organise more.
I am someone who has attention-deficit disorder and have a very hard time even organising my own life. I'm good at rambling on about things, but that's about as far as it goes, unfortunately. :s

284 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:43:17pm

#280 Highrise 9/07/07 4:35:27 pm reply quote report


Those gathering of eagles people are so special. So are our patriotic americans on our border known as Minute men to which our gov't referred to them as *vigilantes*. I was seething. All they do is watch the border, they do not apprehend. Wow, what vigilantes!

Gotta say, I've always been quite fond of vigilantes. Anyone ever murders one of my kids and they'll have to invent a new word that gives the term vigilante a whole new connotation and I'll be willing to go to prison and hell. It would be worth it.

285 Highrise  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:45:13pm

re: #282 wishbone

Thanks for that bit of insight. I see the same apathy..that is why I'm a bit wondering of an explosion of *we aren't gonna take it anymore* from the right in the future...maybe even 30 years from now..who knows.

Regardless, this is one American that will stand by ANY ally we have...it's like a marriage, it isn't always 50/50..it'll split at times like 60/40 and 40/60 and hopefully add up to 50/50 in the end.

And for what it is worth, brits, all the people I come into contact that are American have nothing but good to say about the UK and how we all need to stick together. I don't see brit hatred.

286 AirForceWife  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:47:05pm

#282 wishbone 9/07/07 4:40:02 pm reply quote report

So what all this ineptitude has brought about is what I can only describe as an almost total apathy for politics amongst the British people. Politically, people don't give a toss anymore. They don't even bother voting for the most part these days either.

I've seen that here among conservatives who used to vote and tell me they won't anymore. The answers are always the same...that they feel they simply are not represented anymore.

287 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:53:06pm

re: #286 AirForceWife

All politicians are chasing the centre ground. They are giving people want they want. Politicians should be inspiring people to make themselves and their country better.

288 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:56:01pm

re: #282 wishbone

I can see Labour's support collapsing in the next General election. It won't be due to the opposition but because they have alienated their traditional support so much.

289 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 4:58:36pm

re: #288 cagney

re: #282 wishbone

I can see Labour's support collapsing in the next General election. It won't be due to the opposition but because they have alienated their traditional support so much.

I fear that Gordon Brown will call for an election early, before the conservatives (specifically Cameron) have had a chance to hear the voices of the true conservatives shouting for change.

But I am quite certain that after the next election, the picture will be drastically different.
Well, mostly certain...

290 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:03:15pm

re: #286 AirForceWife

I've felt like that for quite a long time, and still do to a certain degree, but the threat of Hillary for President has scared me enough to get off my butt and start voting once again. I have to at least do my part to make sure she does not become the leader of my country.

As for some of the things said on this thread: "A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day."

/Aw man, I am such a nerd

291 abu_garcia  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:05:50pm

Well, I've been gone a few hours and come home to find a smoking battlefield in Lizardonia.

Wow, just ... wow.

FWIW...

I was a shy, sickly kid and had a hard time adjusting to the real world, but I remember the most valuable lesson I ever learned when I finally started mixing with the "real world". One guy I knew kept saying "fuck you, buddy, if you can't take a joke," whenever I, or anyone, took offense at something.

Of course, the offending things were never "jokes". They were part of the jostling and elbowing while we naked apes were jockying for position in this world. If you deal with the world long enough you eventually learn that there is a minority of sociopaths and bullies out there who mean you harm, serious deadly harm, and then there is the majority, who are just jostling for position. No, they don't always mean well, but they also don't mean serious harm.

Learning to shake off the dings and go on about life without making serious enemies of people who can otherwise be valuable allies when the chips are down is one of the most important social lessons of this life.

Carry on.

292 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:08:31pm

re: #287 cagney
Remember, the first duty of any politician is to get reelected. That's all.

293 Walter E. Wallis  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:09:17pm

It is time for free nations to reconsider loyalty oaths.

294 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:13:14pm

re: #262 cagney

Notice how's she's fallen off the radar now? Again, a vitriolic bitch out to spread discord. Runs in, drops her load and then seeks cover. Maybe she needs a good... (fill in the blank).

295 swamprat  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:14:21pm

on thread: Hamas killing Fatah: (old Caribbean proverb)

"wen tief tief tief, massa god laugh"!

...(when a thief steals from a thief,God laughs)

296 swamprat  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:16:17pm

wrong thread

297 cagney  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:17:01pm

re: #294 grumpy old codger

Even though I rarely get involved in the wars, I keep an eye on her shenanigans. She is a bad apple that's for sure.

298 abu_garcia  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:21:41pm

re: #284 AirForceWife

Gotta say, I've always been quite fond of vigilantes. Anyone ever murders one of my kids and they'll have to invent a new word that gives the term vigilante a whole new connotation and I'll be willing to go to prison and hell. It would be worth it.

At some point our government must realize that it can only maintain its "monopoly on violence" if it serves the interests of those who are the backbone of society at large. If it does not eventually realize this and serve to protect society, then it can only maintain that monopoly by ruthless totalitarian violence.

In the sixties the pendulum swung, justifiably, towards those who suffered at the hands of society for the sake of order. We are now to the state where order has broken down in some places and decent people are suffering more than they will stand.

Your sentiment is not uncommon and, IMO, its root is in the realization that government no longer serves or protects satisfiably the legitimate interests of the backbone of society. This will change or chaos will ensue.

299 Aussie Infidel  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 5:30:02pm

At the end of the day folks it all comes down to one thing.

Are you prepared to loose EVERYTHING you have and risk being locked up for the rest of your life if you fail by taking direct action?

My guess is that in this place 99.9% of folks wouldn't actually cross that line even if they rant and rave and say that they would. Talk , especially in here...is cheap! I guess it serves a purpose, and 'the man' allows it as it is a mechanism to let off steam and keep the 'natives' compliant and in their homes.

The government knows this.
The Islamists know this
In our heart of hearts we know this as well!

So security oversight and civil control, is ramped up in the West and this makes it even more difficult for individual citizens to not only physically and psychologically strike back at Islamist in our midst, but to even mount some form of self defense if attacked.

You can't fight City Hall, and City Hall knows it as do the Islamists. There will be no blow-back in either the UK or even the US. Folks are just too comfortable in the 21st. Century and feel that they have too much to loose so everyone just keeps their heads down and hopes. Until it's too late to do anything. Now we know how the Romans felt!

300 EE  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 6:47:30pm

Deobandi Islam:
[Link: www.globalsecurity.org...]

301 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 6:47:39pm
302 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 6:51:48pm
303 EE  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 7:10:27pm

re #300

The Deobandi interpretation holds that a Muslim's first loyalty is to his religion and only then to the country of which he is a citizen or a resident; secondly, that Muslims recognise only the religious frontiers of their Ummah and not the national frontiers; thirdly,that they have a sacred right and obligation to go to any country to wage jihad to protect the Muslims of that country.

With the lie being spread that Islam is under attack by the kafir, the Deobandis are advocating jihad against whatever kafirs they can attack.

I saw the CNN series hosted by Amanpour, who claimed that its the Jews who are inflaming the Muslim world. I have a suspicion that this is not strictly Amanpour's innovative belief, but is the climate of opinion among Britain's elites. If so, the British elites cannot possibly see anything wrong in their country that cannot be corrected by expelling the Jews in Judea and Samaria from their homes and communities, and carrying out the kind of ethnic cleansing that has been done in Europe in hundreds of villages, towns, and cities, over the centuries.

Any strong emotion tends to blind a person. That includes love, hate, envy, and any strong emotion. The British elites have an obsession against the Jewish state. Why is it that Britain is the only country in Europe, and the only country in the Western world, in which the unions have decided to boycott Israel (and not Iran, or any other country in the world at this time)? Even the journalists in Britain, who know that they are expected to report events fairly and without bias and bigotry, have decided to boycott Israel. And the doctors. And the academics. And just about all of the unions. Surely there is a madness among the elites of Britain that involves an obsessive hatred of Israel, leading them to collective punishment, even though Israel does not fire rockets against Britain and is not at war with Britain. I suspect that this strong emotion causes a certain blindness, or maybe is caused by a certain blindness.

So perhaps the elites of Britain are not even aware of the problem that they face, from the Deobandis in their midst advocating anti-kafir jihad, and inciting countless numbers of people to anti-kafir jihad.

How serious could the government there be about the problem when even Hizb ut-Tahrir is considered to be legal, and is able to raise funds legally and without any obstacles, and to recruit, for the purpose of establishing the khilafa?

304 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 7:26:24pm

re: #302 ploome hineniDo you?

305 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 7:26:44pm

re: #301 ploome hineni

and the Brits here have never addressed it

Yeah, except we constantly have. Which is why we are accusing you of hatred.

306 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 7:28:55pm
307 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 7:31:24pm

re: #306 ploome hineni

re: #304 grumpy old codger

re: #302 ploome hineniDo you?

you know what a death threat in a public blog is?

He didn't threaten to kill you.

308 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 7:34:29pm

re: #301 ploome hineni

Drive? I thought you'd use a broomstick.
I've not positied my sefl as a sort of Jewish "pope" demeaning types of judaism i don't approve of.
I've not slammed Catholics.
I've not slammed women, nor my wife.
I'vr not slammed Brits.
I've not posited myself as the arbiter of how experienced pilots will act.
Check your posts over the last three weeks.
guilty as charged.
you apparently believe that you have the inside scoop on everything.
I find you to be an evil, old hag who expresses her hatred behind an anonymous post.
Go to synagogue/church/mlosque/temple and ask for forgiveness.

309 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 7:57:11pm

Tacit consentire?

310 EE  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:20:01pm

Here is a talk by Charles Krauthammer on antisemitism, both of the past, and of the present. At this time, he notes, there are three circles of antisemitism: the first is the Muslim world, where the antisemitism is very intense and very widespread, and permeates the Muslim world; the second is Europe, where antisemitism is not as strong; and the third is America, where antisemitism is much weaker.
[Link: www.adl.org...]

The new antisemitism in Europe has morphed from the old versions, Krauthammer explains. It is based on denying the Jews the right to defend themselves, and since the epitome of Jewish self-defense is found in Israel, it is based on hostility to Israel.

Britain is part of that European situation. And in fact there is a public display of rabid hostility to the Jewish state that doesn't show itself elsewhere in Europe, but is displayed in Britain; I am thinking of the boycotts against Israel that have been rampant in Britain. Think of the unions that have declared boycotts. And the media war against Israel. And the Church's call for divestiture. Taken all together, it is clear that there is a level of hostility that is nothing like the attitude in the US. In fact, someone like Amanpour cannot understand why the US is not behaving in a similar way, and assumes that it must be because the Jews control America, and she consults Mearsheimer and Jimmy Carter to confirm her theory.

The crude violent form of antisemitism is also on the rise in Britain. Steeply rising. Against anyone who wears a skullcap and thereby shows he is Jewish. Some people are carrying out these attacks, and these attacks are the old kind of antisemitism. So there is a blend of the old antisemitism and the new, in Britain.

There is another peculiar thing about Britain, which is that a Pew poll showed that among all of the European countries polled, in Britain the Muslims were most antagonistic toward kafirs, and the non-Muslims were most supportive of the Muslims in their midst. What is the reason for this? I think that this unilateral fondness by non-Muslims toward the Muslims who most dislike kafirs must reflect something, and I suspect that it is due to some sort of blindness and emotion. Perhaps a blindness produced by a hostility toward the Jewish state, and the feeling that, as Amanpour explained, it's the Jews that are causing the Muslim world to act up. Therefore, the Muslim world is not to blame for its actions, it's the Jews who are to blame for the actions of the Muslims. This kind of scapegoating is reminiscent of classical scapegoating of the Jews that has existed for centuries in Europe. And the kind of expulsion of the Jews that the British elites, and other elites of Europe advocate, has precedents in the expulsion of the Jews by Britain in 1290, by France in 1394, by German lands throughout the 15th century, by Spain in 1492, and more, including the European Holocaust in which Jews were expelled from all lands conquered by the Nazis. So I see it as being in the same tradition of expulsion that the elites of Britain and Europe think that the solution to their difficulties is to follow the Jews back to their homeland and to support the expulsion of the Jews of Judea and Samaria. It's just more of the same thing that has gone on for centuries by the Europeans, including Britain.

Those who think that there is no antisemitism in Europe, or that it is not of a much higher order there than in the US, are simply denying an inconvenient truth.

And I have a suspicion that that antisemitism in Europe is blinding some people in Europe to the problem that exists in their midst. And that includes the elites of Londonistan.

311 EE  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:26:49pm

The problem of antisemitism in Britain, both the new form (obsessive rabid anti-Israelism) and the old (including violent attacks against Jews living there), cannot be solved by ad hominems against the messengers of this inconvenient truth. Nor can the blindness toward what is happening in Britain, with the rise of incitement to jihad that has been going on for years and which continues, be solved by ad hominems against the messengers of this inconvenient truth.

312 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:53:05pm

re: #311 EE

The problem of antisemitism in Britain, both the new form (obsessive rabid anti-Israelism) and the old (including violent attacks against Jews living there), cannot be solved by ad hominems against the messengers of this inconvenient truth. Nor can the blindness toward what is happening in Britain, with the rise of incitement to jihad that has been going on for years and which continues, be solved by ad hominems against the messengers of this inconvenient truth.

We're not "attacking the messengers". We are not blind to the problem.

Who attacked Charles, despite him predicting that we would?
We didn't. We agree there is an enormous problem. We just don't agree with those of us who are trying to change things being lumped together with the left, and those who pretend people like us are just isolated accidents in an *entirely* anti-semitic culture (tell that to my ENTIRELY BRITISH family, who would be very insulted at the idea that they might be anti-semitic (hint: THEY'RE NOT)).

Yes, the left have turned anti-semitism into a perfectly acceptable past-time.
Yes, the "elite" in this country are leftists.
No, they do NOT represent the whole of Britain, and to think so is utterly self-defeating - to think so is to defeat *our* (meaning ours and yours!) cause.

I agree fully there is far, FAR too much anti-semitism in this country. So do all of the british posters! How many times do we have to say it before you guys actually hear us?!

313 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 8:57:40pm

re: #312 MattMacD

Some people have ear plugs in and will not hear you despite how loudly you yell. However, if the tune be true, "There'll always be an England", and i'll do my part.

314 MattMacD  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:02:44pm

re: #313 grumpy old codger

re: #312 MattMacD

Some people have ear plugs in and will not hear you despite how loudly you yell. However, if the tune be true, "There'll always be an England", and i'll do my part.

Yup yup.
And now it is time for me to put my literal ear plugs in, and go to sleep. :)

315 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 9:08:47pm

re: #314 MattMacD

Good night sweet prince and may flights of angels... Wasn't that written by some fwench guy?

316 grumpy old codger  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 10:09:11pm

2:29 and nothing. Truth rears it's head.

317 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 7, 2007 11:31:42pm
Seventeen of Britain’s 26 Islamic seminaries are run by Deobandis and they produce 80 per cent of home-trained Muslim clerics. Many had their studies funded by local education authority grants.

That's over half the seminaries in the UK teaching an islamist message to men who will wield influence in the ummah. I fear there are not enough voices calling for fitna in the ummah for the Brits (or any country for that matter) to sit back and hope this clears up on its own. Thankfully, the awakening to the problem is happening.

318 cagney  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 2:40:29am

re: #317 Sharmuta

It's been long known (sorry don't any link's off-hand but I have only one where it has been alleged that that the mosque in Glasgow has been taken over by Hizb ut-Tahrir) that mosques and Islamic centre's have been taken over by radical groups.

What is getting done by it? Absolutely nothing. I wonder if getting bungs from Muslim friends of Labour has anything to do with it.

319 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 5:19:23am

British Antisemitism?
[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

320 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 5:30:33am

re #319

British anti-Semitism?
By James Lewis
It sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? After all, isn't Britain the country with the longest tradition of tolerance in the world?

The answer is Yes, it used to be, and No, it isn't any more.

According to a UK Telegraph article entitled, "Anti-Semitism 'worst since 1936'", the House of Lords just saw a debate on anti-Semitism at British university campuses, triggered by the UCU university faculty boycott against Israel.

Allegations of anti-Semitism and racism can never be made lightly, so it is best to quote the Lords' members who spoke. We must assume they picked their words with care.

"A Jewish peer has warned that anti-Semitism is at its worst level in Britain since he fled here from Germany in 1936. ... Lord Moser said he was particularly concerned about anti-Jewish feeling in Britain's universities."

"Addressing a House of Lords debate on anti-Semitism on university campuses, the crossbench peer said: "It is just over 70 years since I came to this country and I have to say that I've never been more concerned about the rising tide of anti-Semitism throughout Europe, including this country.

"This is evident in many ways and among my greatest worries is what is happening on university campuses where there have been many examples of anti-Semitic outbursts and discrimination."...

Other members agreed.

"Baroness Morris of Bolton, for the Conservatives, attacked "a handful of (university) lecturers who seem to have hijacked their union".

She said the proposed boycott "makes us look, unfairly, biased and petty-minded and it plays into the hands of radical fanatics on campus. There is a time and a place for teenage gesture politics - this isn't it."

But of course the University and College Union (UCU) claims to speak for all university faculty in Britain in this boycott.

"Lord Patten, the former Conservative education secretary, described the idea of a boycott as "entirely abhorrent - engagement is always better than exclusion"."


"Baroness Walmsley, a Liberal Democrat, also opposed a boycott, saying: ‘I abhor the idea of limitations on legitimate academic freedom within reasonable limits.'"


"Lord Adonis, the education Minister said: ‘The Government unequivocally deplores any proposed boycott...'"

All that makes it sound as if sanity is breaking out in the United Kingdom. Wonderful. But will it make a difference? The academic boycott campaign has been on the boil for years, almost surely funded by Arab oil money. The Hard Left has been pushing a hate-Israel campaign on British campuses for half a century. And the British body politic has simply responded by drifting farther Left, Left, Left. Today, the biggest voice of biased anti-Zionism is the fabled British Broadcasting Corporation, perhaps the most powerful organ of propaganda in the world.

There are voices for sanity, and there are the forces on the left that almost seem perhaps unstoppable.

321 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 5:32:38am

re #319

So the traditional British values expressed in the House of Lords are encouraging --- but much, much more needs to be done for Britain to rediscover herself. You can't have multicultural commissars take over your education system, your tax-funded broadcasting empire, and the chattering classes, without losing your cultural foundations. You can't import two million indoctrinated Islamists from the NorthWest Territories of Pakistan and expect them to act like Anglican clergy. And you can't capsize Parliamentary sovereignty and surrender to unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy without some terrifying consequences. None of those trends are being reversed. So it seems that we've only seen the beginning of Britain's cultural and political decline. It's tragic but true.
322 jeffreyimm  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 5:37:05am

Those readers who get upset, better get upset, because UK is falling apart at the seems internally. We better define who we are fighting because Islamists are simply using another tactic than Jihadists... for now.

323 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 5:37:35am

The British Left Goes Antisemitic, by Theodore Dalrymple
[Link: www.city-journal.org...]
Dalrymple saw this years ago. It's now obvious to everyone, that is everyone willing to see.

324 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 5:38:43am

re #323


Theodore Dalrymple
The British Left Goes Anti-Semitic
Socialism and anti-Semitism are closely related worldviews.
23 July 2002

Anti-Semitism, someone once said, is the socialism of fools: but he might just as well have said that socialism is anti-Semitism with the Jews left out, for both doctrines appeal to the same resentments, hatreds, and style of thought. It was no accident, as the Marxists used to put it, that Marx himself, though Jewish, was a ferocious anti-Semite who accepted the ancient stereotype of the Jew as a bloodsucking usurer. Socialist and anti-Semite alike seek an all-encompassing explanation of the imperfection of the world, and for the persistence of poverty and injustice: and each thinks he has found an answer.

There are other connections between left-wing thought and anti-Semitism (usually believed to be a disease of the Right alone). The liberal intellectual who laments the predominance of dead white males in the college syllabus or the lack of minority representation in the judiciary uses fundamentally the same argument as the anti-Semite who objects to the prominence of Jews in the arts, sciences, professions, and in commerce. They both assume that something must be amiss—a conspiracy—if any human group is over- or under-represented in any human activity, achievement, or institution.

The cartoonists in the left-leaning British press rarely pillory plutocratic capitalists without giving to them a distinctly Der Sturmer–type Jewish visage or physique: fat and hook-nosed, they have slavering lips and hanging jowls. Looking at the cartoons, one wonders how long it will be before accusations of ritual murder are made. Not long ago, The Observer, the oldest and most distinguished of the British liberal journals, published a flagrantly anti-Semitic poem by the Oxford English don, Tom Paulin, who later opined that American Jewish settlers on the West Bank should be shot.

The Middle East conflict has given respectability to old prejudices, especially in British academic circles. Two hundred British academics, some eminent, have selected Israel, of all the countries in the world, as the object of a total boycott, as if Israel were a uniquely evil state. While one can disagree strongly with the Israeli government’s policies without being anti-Semitic, the selection of Israel alone for a boycott in a world in which atrocity and suppression of freedom are routine must arouse suspicions of pre-existing animus—that is to say, of old-fashioned anti-Semitism.

When Professor Mona Baker of the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology dismissed two Israeli academics from the editorial board of two academic journals, The Translator and Translation Studies Abstracts, on the sole grounds that they were Israeli, not a peep of protest was heard from British academics, though if she had dismissed the academics on the grounds that they were Syrian, Rwandan Hutu, or Muslim, a great fuss would have ensued. Professor Baker (born and educated in Egypt) said she thought she was only doing what many British academics would have done in the circumstances.

True, a belated reaction has now set in, and Professor Baker’s own university is investigating her for her high-handed reaction. She might even face dismissal. But what is clear is that anti-Semitism is no longer (if it ever was) the preserve of the neo-Nazis. Because of the structural similarities between leftist thought and anti-Semitism, it remains a permanent temptation on the Left as well as on the Right.

325 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 5:56:35am

British antisemitism
by Philip Chaston, writing from London
[Link: www.samizdata.net...]
In the violent old-type of antisemitism, there is the far right and Muslim fundamentalists.

326 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 5:58:02am

re #325


British Anti-Semitism
Philip Chaston (London) UK affairs


Last year saw a further rise in anti-semitic incidents in the United Kingdom. Both Muslim fundamentalists and the far right were involved in a more assertive and targeted campaign against prominent Jewish citizens. This indicates that anti-semitism in Britain is conforming to the European pattern, established on the continent in the first years of this century, without a strong response from many governments.

Whilst disagreeing with pundits who view this phenomenon as a cultural shift towards dhimmitude and Eurabia in that Europeans recognise and accommodate the superiority of Islam, there is no doubt that the issue of Palestine and the actions of Muslim fundamentalists has provided a lodestar for more traditional anti-semites. To this can be added a countervailing bias in the media that has promoted a discourse where all terrorist casualties in Israel are unfortunate and where all Palestinian deaths are victims. This has also stimulated a Manichaean view of the conflict with goodies and baddies, a framework that its supporters consider is the defining stupidity of those they oppose. As a consequence, the view of Israel and of Judaism in general has merged, and an unsympathetic span of views with shared arguments has arisen that shades from dislike of Israel to out and out anti-semitism.

These developments have reinforced old prejudices. There has always been a strong strand of anti-semitism amongst certain parts of British society. Such views were banished 'beyond the pale' in revulsion at the Holocaust but they were never relinquished by those who accepted them. Now it is noted that they still exist and that they exercise a strong hold over a significant minority.

An ICM poll last month in Britain found that one in five Britons would oppose a Jewish prime minister, while one in seven believed that the Holocaust was exaggerated.

The far right has developed a campaign of targeting prominent opinion formers who they have identified as Jews including Lord Triesman of Tottenham and Barbara Roche, MP for Hornsey and Wood Green, suburbs in North London. Even when Lord Triesman tried to protect his family, local council incompetence limited his ability to defend them.

Combat 18, the banned neo-Nazi terror group, has orchestrated a 14-month campaign of terror against Lord Triesman of Tottenham. His windows have been broken and his walls daubed with swastikas in 12 separate attacks.

The problem became so bad that he was advised by Special Branch to erect a 10ft fence around his home in Dartmouth Park, north London. The fence was dismantled in December, however, because it fell foul of the planning rules of the Labour-run Camden borough council. Lord Triesman, 61, said that he was disturbed by the attacks, which he blamed on anti-Semitic sentiment.

"When a group like Combat 18 spray swastikas and slogans on your walls and brick your windows, it's evident what it's all about," he said. "My family was at home through a number of attacks and it was pretty grizzly. It has been a really bad time, horrendous, and no one should have to go through that."

He criticised Camden council for forcing him to take down the protective fence. "The fence has come down now. I am not happy about it at all. It was there because Special Branch advised it."

There were 350 anti-semitic incidents in 2002 and more last year. Given the factors that have stimulated an old prejudice and provided succour to new groups such as those Muslim fundamentalists who promote hate, there will be continued a rise in anti-semitism for the foreseeable future. As there is no right to self-defence in Britain at the moment, there may well be serious consequences as anti-semites become bolder, knowing that their victims are defenceless.

327 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 6:07:48am

In Britain, there is a convergence of antisemitism from the leftist elites focusing on anti-Israelism, joined by the far right, and most importantly from Muslim fundamentalists, and financed by Arab oil money.

Here is an article on British antisemitism by Eytan Gilboa
[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

328 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 6:10:34am

re #327


British anti-Semitism

Anti-Semitism, not policy criticism, is the motor driving anti-Israel efforts in England

Eytan Gilboa
Published: 05.31.06, 12:24 / Israel Opinion

An anti-Israel and anti-Semitic wave is consuming England. Several groups are waging an aggressive war against Israel, and the battle has reached new heights of late.


A group of British university lecturers with 67,000 members recently decided to support the Hamas government and recommended its members sever all ties with Israeli scientists who refuse to denounce "Israel's apartheid policies in the territories." Another academic organization tried to pass a similar motion last year, but abandoned the effort after being threatened with legal action.

For the past several years these organizations have been trying to impose an academic boycott on Israel. Every year they alter their proposals in the hope they will finally be approved.


Trampling academic, actual freedom


The phenomenon started with proposals to boycott all Israeli universities and academics; last year they focused on Bar Ilan University and Haifa University, and when that failed, they recommended British academics personally boycott Israeli scientists. This proposal was finally approved.


This represents a serious trampling of academic and scientific freedom. It is a political witch hunt, and to a very large degree it is a cynical, anti-Semitic move. No similar decisions have been taken about any other country, even ones responsible for serious human rights abuses.


This decision joins other serious steps. In the past year, lawyers have gotten arrest warrants for IDF generals, including Shaul Mofaz, Aviv Kochavi and Doron Almog, claiming they committed war crimes.


A group of British architects passed a resolution to boycott their Israeli counterparts because, according to them, the Israelis were
partners in creating the "criminal" security fence. The editor of Dance Europe refused to publish an article by Israeli choreographer Sally-Anne Friedland unless she issue a public denunciation of the "Israeli occupation," and the Anglican Church has recommended boycotting Israeli businesses, which would mean pulling investments from companies and factories that do businesses with Israel.


In each of these cases, the underlying motor driving these efforts is a rejection of Israel's fundamental right to exist. They are more than simple criticisms of Israeli policy.

329 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 6:12:10am

re #327


There are several reasons for this British hostility, including the anti-Israel activities of radical and post-Zionist Israelis living in England, Israel's portrayal in the British media, and the country's weak Jewish community.

The British media systematically supports the Palestinians, and openly slants its reporting about Israel and Israeli policy. The left-wing Guardian and Independent newspapers regularly print accusatory, anti-Israel editorials, and their correspondents in Israel file biased, and occasionally false, reports. The supposedly prestigious BBC has long been a sounding board to trumpet Palestinian propaganda.


Britain's academic community has proven just how small and outrageous it really is. Maybe the English think they still rule the Land of Israel. Perhaps they are just taking revenge for losing their mandate here to small, determined group of Jews.


The time has come to focus on Britain. The government must join together with non-governmental organizations to focus efforts on repelling the spiteful wave of ugly anti-Semitism.

330 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 7:44:50am

Wow, EE. You sure are good at spamming things we already know and agree with you on. Got an agenda perhaps?
Especially as those articles say the same things we are. it's the left and "elites", they are ruining this country with their socialist policies, and they have been for a long time (if you think just the few of us can change the course of the whole society, you are a little nuts. But that doesn't mean we're not trying).
Still want to continue blaming those of us who *aren't* socialists, who *aren't* anti-semitic?
Or is this just me "attacking" you for providing the "message", once again?
Poor EE, the victim. He just wants to provide the truth, which everyone already knew and acknowledge and is working to change, and he was persecuted for it.
Should we start up a charity for you?

331 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:26:49am

Here is an article on the new antisemitism, by Melanie Phillips
[Link: christianactionforisrael.org...]

332 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:28:13am

re: #331 EE

Here is an article on the new antisemitism, by Melanie Phillips
[Link: christianactionforisrael.org...]

Good job EE. You ignore me with conviction.

333 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:29:51am

re #331


The New Anti-Semitism
by Melanie Phillips - March 22, 2003

Melanie Phillips says that hostility to Jews is strongest among those on the Left who claim to be fighting racism

Want to make yourself really, really unpopular if you’re a Jew? Try saying that the world is witnessing a terrifying firestorm of hatred directed at Israel and the Jewish people, in which the British and Europeans are deeply implicated. Since it is now a given in many circles that Israel is a threat to the world equal to North Korea, and that Ariel Sharon is a cross between Martin Bormann and Hendrik Verwoerd, you will find yourself accused of using the Holocaust to avoid any criticism of Israel’s behaviour. Because, well, you know, you Jews always stick together and are mighty quick to deal that persecution card.

Anyone who holds that view may as well skip what follows. More objective and fair-minded souls, however, might be deeply alarmed to learn of the evidence provided at a recent conference on anti-Semitism and the media at the Vidal Sassoon Centre for the Study of Anti-Semitism in Jerusalem.

This was scarcely a gathering of the Ariel Sharon fan club. Among academics and journalists from Israel, Europe, Britain and America were several left-wingers and liberals who were deeply hostile to Israel’s Likud government, believed that the settlements should be dismantled, and were troubled by the behaviour of some of Israel’s military. ‘There’s no doubt that Israel is committing human-rights violations on the West Bank,’ said Professor Yehuda Bauer, the distinguished Holocaust expert.

But there was equally no doubt, from what he and others said, that anti-Zionism is now being used to cloak a terrifying nexus between genocidal Arab and Islamist hatred of the Jews and deep-seated European prejudices.

Anti-Semitism is protean, mutating over the centuries into new forms. Now it has changed again, into a shape which requires a new way of thinking and a new vocabulary. The new anti-Semitism does not discriminate against Jews as individuals on account of their race. Instead, it is centred on Israel, and the denial to the Jewish people alone of the right of self-determination.

This is nothing to do with the settlements or the West Bank. Indeed, the language being used exposes as a cruel delusion the common belief that the Middle East crisis would be solved by the creation of a Palestinian state.

The key motif is a kind of Holocaust inversion, with the Israelis being demonised as Nazis and the Palestinians being regarded as the new Jews. Israel and the Jews are being systematically delegitimised and dehumanised — a necessary prelude to their destruction — with both Islamists and the Western media using anti-Zionism as a fig-leaf for prejudices rooted in both mediaeval Christian and Nazi demonology.

This has produced an Orwellian situation in which hatred of the Jews now marches behind the Left’s banner of anti-racism and human rights, giving rise not merely to distortions, fabrications and slander about Israel in the media but also to mainstream articles discussing the malign power of the Jews over American and world policy.

334 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:35:41am

re #331


The Jerusalem conference heard chilling presentations about a phenomenon barely discussed in Britain: the virulent Arab and Muslim hatred of the Jews. This goes far beyond even the desire to finish off Israel as a Jewish state. Anti-Jewish hatred plays a crucial role in the fanatical jihadism that now threatens all of us in the West, pouring out in television programmes, newspapers and religious sermons throughout the Arab and Muslim world, and amounting to a new warrant for genocide.

The dominant message is that Jewish power amounts to a conspiracy to destroy Islam and take over the whole world. Truly mad theories circulate on Islamist Internet sites which have now convinced untold numbers of Arabs and Muslims that the Jews were behind both 9/11 and the Columbia space-shuttle disaster. Egyptian television transmitted a 41-part series which presented the notorious Tsarist forgery, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion — which purported to be a Jewish plot to control the world — as the truth. (This has prompted some Arab intellectuals to condemn such propaganda as both untrue and a tactical error, but these dissidents remain a small minority.) Meanwhile, Saudi media and religious sermons incite the murder of Jews.

According to the Arabic scholar Professor Menachem Milsom, this Arab and Islamist propaganda persistently dehumanised Jews by representing them as apes and pigs. A preacher at the totemic Haram mosque in Mecca said the Jews were ‘evil offspring’, the ‘destroyers of God’s word’, ‘priest murderers’ and the ‘scum of the human race’. The mediaeval Christian blood libel — the claim that the Jews kill children and drink their blood — has surfaced time and again in prestigious Arab newspapers.

And Zionism was equated with Nazism; just as the Nazis believed in the superiority of the ‘Aryan’ race, so Zionists (sic) believed they were the chosen people, which justified their own military expansion. This equation was not confined to a marginal few. Abu Mazen, said Milsom, the Palestinian Authority intellectual who is being talked about as Yasser Arafat’s prime minister in a ‘reformed’ administration, wrote as much in his doctoral thesis — in which he also said that the Zionists gave the Nazis permission to treat the Jews as they wished so long as this guaranteed their immigration to Palestine.

These sick outpourings are not so much religious or even fundamentalist doctrines as rooted in a fanatical totalitarian ideology. As Professor Bauer observed, the driving aim is the Islamic dictatorship of the world. Realisation of this utopia necessitates the destruction of the foundation creeds of Western culture, Judaism and Christianity — and especially Israel, the supposed personification of Western global power-lust, which was planted as an incubus on Arab soil as a result of the Holocaust.

Holocaust denial is therefore central to Arab anti-Semitism, the prejudice which such historical falsehood has helped to forge a strategic alliance with Europe. For it absolves Europe of its guilt over the Jews, and replaces it with European guilt towards Arabs displaced as a result of the Holocaust.

Europe has waited for more than half a century for a way to blame the Jews for their own destruction. So instead of sounding the alarm over genocidal Islamist Jew-hatred, Europeans have eagerly embraced the Nazification of the Jews, a process which really got under way with Israel’s disastrous invasion of Lebanon in 1982. This marked the beginning of the media’s systematic inversion of Israeli self-defence as aggression, along with double-standards and malicious fabrications, which have nothing to do with legitimate (and necessary) criticism of Israel and everything to do with delegitimising the Jewish state altogether in readiness for its dismantling.

335 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:38:08am
336 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:38:23am

re #331


So the conference heard about German accusations that Israel was using Nazi methods and (repeating a claim by Hamas) that the Monica Lewinsky scandal was a Jewish conspiracy against Bill Clinton. It heard of the Nazification of Israel in Sweden, where there were charges that the Israelis were exterminating the Palestinians, that the media were controlled by Jewish interests to suppress criticism of Israel, and that influential Jewish lobby groups were ‘spraying journalists with poison’.

It heard that in France Jews were vilified and excluded from public debate if they challenged the lies being told about Israel. It was shown a devastating French film Décryptage (Decoding) — which has been playing to packed houses in Paris — about the obsessive malevolence towards Israel displayed by the French media. It was told about the way the British media described Israel’s ‘death squads’, ‘killing fields’ and ‘executioners’ while sanitising Palestinian human bombs as ‘gentle’, ‘religious’ and ‘kind’. It heard about the cartoon in the Italian newspaper La Stampa during the siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, depicting an Israeli tank pointing a gun at the baby Jesus who is saying, ‘Surely they are not going to kill me again.’

And of course there was Jenin, the so-called ‘massacre’ or ‘genocide’ reported as such by virtually the entire media, where in fact 52 Palestinians died, of whom more than half were terrorists, while Israel sustained (for it) the huge loss of 45 of its soldiers. This astonishing media distortion was conceded at the conference by the (extraordinarily brave) Palestinian politics professor Mohammad Dajani, who also observed that a distraught Palestinian public was — on this and other occasions — whipped up by biased and emotional Palestinian reporting which showed little concern for the truth. But the big lie of the Jenin massacre is now believed as fact, contributing to the belief that Israel is a criminal state.

Europeans have thus made themselves accomplices to an explicitly genocidal programme. But an even more striking feature is that, while the old anti-Semitism still festers away among neo-Nazis, the new anti-Semitism is a phenomenon of their sworn enemies on the political Left.
So, as the Canadian law professor Irwin Cotler observed, we now have the mind-twisting situation where anti-Jewish hatred is harnessed to the cause of anti-racism and human rights, with Israel being compared to both Nazism and apartheid by those who define themselves against these ideologies. Such a travesty of the facts involves, of course, the implicit denial of the truth of those terrible regimes, quite apart from the prelude to annihilation created by such a lethal defamation of Israel. And even more counterintuitively, many Jews and Israelis on the Left also subscribe to this analysis — and even to the demonology of Israeli Nazism and apartheid — handing an effective weapon to those who dismiss the claim of a new anti-Semitism as Jewish paranoia or Islamophobia.

337 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:41:08am

re #331


So what is the explanation for the Left’s position? Partly, it’s the old anti-imperialist and anti-West prejudice. Partly, it’s the view that only the powerless can be victims; so Third World people can never be murderers, and any self-defence by Western societies such as Israel must instead be aggression. Partly, it’s the post-modern destruction of objectivity and truth, which has ushered in the hegemony of lies. And partly, as the Left takes an axe to morality and self-restraint, it’s a golden opportunity to pulverise the very people who invented the damn rules in the first place.

A left-wing Polish journalist at the conference, Konstanty Gebert, got the real point. The Left, he said, could not face the fact that they had totally misconstrued the Middle East because this would undermine their whole philosophy. This was founded on the premise that reason could reconcile all differences; all that was needed in Israel was an enlightened government for reason to prevail. The evidence that we are facing a phenomenon which is not susceptible to reason would destroy that world view. It would also give credibility to the hated Sharon, whose demonisation is absolutely vital to the Left as a protection against the implosion of its whole ideological position.

So the evidence is being denied, and truth is being stood on its head. The result is the defamation of a people, the greater prospect of its destruction, and the disastrous failure of the populations of Britain and Europe to understand properly the threat that all free peoples now face.

338 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:42:46am

re: #335 ploome hineni

re: #333 EE

Want to make yourself really, really unpopular if you’re a Jew? Try saying that the world is witnessing a terrifying firestorm of hatred directed at Israel and the Jewish people, in which the British and Europeans are deeply implicated.

we are seeing it here, on this thread

Uhm, yeah? We're hating you are we?
Or could it be we're pointing out that not all of us brits are anti-semitic?
Poor victim ploome hineni. :(

339 EE  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:43:43am

re: #335 ploome hineni

re: #333 EE

Want to make yourself really, really unpopular if you’re a Jew? Try saying that the world is witnessing a terrifying firestorm of hatred directed at Israel and the Jewish people, in which the British and Europeans are deeply implicated.

we are seeing it here, on this thread

Good post.

340 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:45:37am
341 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:46:41am
342 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:51:36am
343 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:53:47am

re: #340 ploome hineni

re: #338 MattMacD

why are you determined to conflate the two..to to understand, I think we share the same position'

there are British people who are NOT antisemites

British society on the whole is extremely antisemitic

British society on the whole is extremely antisemitic, yes.
But there are also huge parts of it that aren't. You are seeing the left part of this society, which is in power right now, and attributing it to british society as a whole.
We have pointed out many BRITISH PEOPLE (british - CULTURALLY), and you yourself did so, who are on your side. Who are disgusted with the anti-semitism in britain today. Who are fighting to change things.

I AM A PART OF BRITISH SOCIETY;
MY FAMILY IS FULLY BRITISH, CULTURALLY;
WE ARE NOT ANTI-SEMITIC.
Please acknowledge our existence.
Please support us in our fight - for your own sake.
I apologise for writing in caps. I apologise because I realise you still won't listen to what I say. So I'm just being pointlessly rude. Sigh.

344 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:54:38am

re: #342 ploome hineni

re: #338 MattMacD

re: #335 ploome hineni

Uhm, yeah? We're hating you are we?
Or could it be we're pointing out that not all of us brits are anti-semitic?
Poor victim ploome hineni. :(

someone suggested I die

you forgot?

you call that rational argument? reasoned difference of opinion?

(and he was not part of this discussion at all)

Oh, I suggested you die did I?
When you ignored all of my previous posts refuting your points, and you ignored me, was that because I suggested you die?
When you slandered my CULTURALLY BRITISH family constantly, and I didn't insult you in return, that was ME at fault?

345 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 8:55:56am

re: #344 MattMacD

Oh, I suggested you die did I?
When you ignored all of my previous posts refuting your points, and you ignored me, was that because I suggested you die?


Redundancy - proof I'm too stressed about this damn issue. :p

346 cagney  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 9:02:07am

re: #336 EE

I am a bloke in my thirites, I live in a town near Glasgow that is approx 99% white. My only contact wtih non-whites on a regular basis are with shopkeepers who may be pakistani/muslims or indian/hindus.

In my infrequent trips to the Glasgow city centre (outside regular pub crawls) my only awareness of muslims is passers-by with their headscarves/muslim clothing.

I only recently discovered that Glasgow has the biggest Jewish population (IIRC 8 thousand) in Scotland and has several synagogues. My only awareness of a Jewish person was recently passing by a family who was wearing traditional Jewish Orthodox Clothing.

The UK is a secular country where religion is a private matter and is not discussed in mainstream conversation or covered in mainstream media.

From this viewpoint I base my comments that I post in here concerning the UK. I apologise if I come across trying to portray as country with no problems. There is, massive corruption in government, violence in the streets, falling moral standards and yes massive anti-semitism that has crept into our society.

I am under no illusion that the recent block on arms sales to Israel is down to this left/Islamic partnership.

As I posted earlier, Labour is receiving large sums of money from Muslim businessman. As the Labour party has a massive deficit, IIRC approx £19 million, they will need as many donors as possible to plug this gap and this leaves the thought, where are they going to get it from?

347 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 9:21:04am
348 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 9:30:24am

re: #347 ploome hineni

re: #344 MattMacD

not you

Right. So why do you not address any of my arguments, and then act as if by criticising your arguments, I am being anti-semitic?

re: #335 ploome hineni

re: #333 EE

Want to make yourself really, really unpopular if you’re a Jew? Try saying that the world is witnessing a terrifying firestorm of hatred directed at Israel and the Jewish people, in which the British and Europeans are deeply implicated.

we are seeing it here, on this thread

349 cagney  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 9:59:31am

I'm not sure about the other UK lizards that the point I myself is trying to make (hopefully I can articulate myself properly) is that while society can in part shape the attitudes of it's citizens, society does not make citizens.

If it was true then why has China turn to capitalism? Why did East European countries and the Soviet Union fling away the shackles of Communism? Why is it that every totalitarian regime is eventually overthrown?

Comparisons to the present state of the UK and 30's Germany have been made. Politically it is not far away from it.

Apart form crippling economic meltdown caused by the Versailles treaty, I can't understand why ordinary German's turned to Hitler and Nazism but I can't see the same thing happening here, no offence to the German lizards in here, but we brit's don't do that thing.

We blokes over here love our drink, cynical and very anti-authoritarian. We have more in common with the swaggering, cynical snarl and two fingers to everything attitude of Mick Jaeger and Sid Vicious than the foppish stupid grins of Hugh Grant.

Make no doubt about it, there will be some people who swallow it hook, line and sinker, as the song from a rock group called Thunder goes They don't give a damn, they'll do whatever it takes, If they climb the ladder, they get to play for higher stakes, That's why there's low life in high places but the average bloke won't listen to the nonsense that is being spouted out by PC multicultural government.

This is where I'm coming from when I make comments.

350 cagney  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 10:00:48am

I'm off to the pub for a few bevvies, I'm sure this will be going on when I get back in.

351 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 10:23:18am

re: #350 cagney

I'm off to the pub for a few bevvies, I'm sure this will be going on when I get back in.

Have a good time.
I don't drink, I miss going to the pub to play pool though. Used to have a friend I would play pool with, but he moved to London.

352 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 1:00:03pm
353 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 1:29:00pm

re: #352 ploome hineni

/feh

Still trying desperately to avoid every single point made to you?
Do you seriously think the *monarchy* represents all british people?
Do you seriously think WE don't realise there is far, FAR too much anti-semitism in modern british culture?

If not, why the fuck do you keep pushing that?

354 grumpy old codger  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 2:50:16pm

Re #353 MattMacD
Why do you waste your time trying to reason with this troll? Throughout the course of this thread, you and others have asked that specific issues be addressed. They were not. TAKE THE HINT. There is no intention to deal in anything that might contradict the image/construct that this oxygen thief has of the world. Its mind is made up, rational discourse or any attempt at the same will not change its mind.

355 MattMacD  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 3:05:28pm

re: #354 grumpy old codger

Re #353 MattMacD
Why do you waste your time trying to reason with this troll? Throughout the course of this thread, you and others have asked that specific issues be addressed. They were not. TAKE THE HINT. There is no intention to deal in anything that might contradict the image/construct that this oxygen thief has of the world. Its mind is made up, rational discourse or any attempt at the same will not change its mind.

:p
I never give up!
Well, I try, when it makes sense to (or rather: no sense not to). But I'm a little too stubborn sometimes for my own good.

356 grumpy old codger  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 3:22:08pm

re: #355 MattMacD
Then iIsuggest a good anti-headache medicine.

357 Dom  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 9:28:40pm

As one British Jew, much respect to other British posters here and those who have given them their due. We do have a problem, and we also have a society looking for ways to tackle it, and it has not reached a point where the apathetic masses are indoctrinated against Jews. I consider that many of us in Britain are a credible and vital part of the solution, not just to anti-semitism, but to the pervasiveness of hard left views and the weak face we present to Islamists. Any suggestion that we are in denial has been well laid to rest on this and other threads, let alone by the topic itself. I don't see why this thread should have been hijacked to present Britain as overtaken by Jew-hatred but I appreciate your efforts to present an honest assessment. British antisemitism is real, but this doomsaying is frankly absurd and you might consider it beneath you to debate the point further, you've said what you can and what lies behind some of the hostility is clearly for another subject.

358 grumpy old codger  Sat, Sep 8, 2007 9:38:50pm

In keeping with the British motif, let me paraphrase a British poet, whose name escapes me:

I met Death upon the way,
He had a face like ploome hineni.

359 EE  Sun, Sep 9, 2007 6:20:20am

Here is an interesting item on the attitude of the BBC. The BBC people who decide what comments to keep and what to delete have decided that any comments that are offensive to Muslims are forbidden, but comments that are offensive to Jews, or are antisemitic, are in support of the public interest.
[Link: www.jewishpress.com...]

360 EE  Sun, Sep 9, 2007 7:03:20am

re #359
Why do the BBC people who decide what comments to keep and what to delete feel that comments offensive to Muslims are forbidden, but comments that are offensive to Jews or are antisemitic are in support of the public interest?

I can understand why they don't want comments offensive to Muslims. But what about the other notion, the concept that antisemitic material is in support of the public interest? The idea is to sacrifice someone, feed him to the crocodile, so that the crocodile eats me last.

The people being sacrificed are the Jews. By promoting antisemitism, the BBC seeks to deflect Muslim anger away toward the Jews and they hope away from everyone else. By fighting against the Jews, the Muslims, they hope, will have their jihad appetites sated, and won't bother with anybody else.

As Winston Churchill pointed out, feeding the crocodile only makes the crocodile grow. Instead, the crocodile should be fought. That was what Churchill said when the world decided at Munich to sacrifice Czechoslavakia by giving the Sudetenland to Nazi Germany, in the (false) hope that that would satisfy Hitler, and bring "peace in our time".

Today, as far as the BBC is concerned, the Jews are in the role of Czechoslavakia. They will be sacrificed. The crocodile will be sated.

But appeasement didn't work then, and it won't work now.

361 EE  Sun, Sep 9, 2007 7:05:02am

re #359

News and Views From Europe
By: Rachel Rogosnitzky

Date Posted: September 5, 2007


BBC Ignores Anti-Semitic Comments
The BBC is at it again, defending itself against charges of of anti-Semitism by rationalizing its policies.

This time the subject of the charge is a series of anti-Semitic comments on a BBC Radio Five Live online message board. The original message surfaced following an investigation into anti-Semitism in Britain by newspaper columnist Richard Littlejohn.

The poster of the message, apparently irked by Littlejohn’s frank appraisal of the rise of anti-Semitism in Britain, expressed the view that "Zionism is a racist ideology where jews (sic) are given supremacy over all other races and faiths."

Another equally offensive contributor added his comments, saying "it is not a big deal to deny the Holocaust. No one could ever surpass Jews when it comes to denial."

Freedom of speech policies on Internet message boards has resulted in oupourings of race hatred and anti-Semitism. The Community Security Trust complained to the BBC, which responded that it had not breached "house rules." How these rules are interpreted remains a matter of conjecture, since they include the statement, "We reserve the right to fail messages which are considered likely to disrupt, provoke, attack or offend others."

The BBC justified inclusion of racist comments by the assumption that they will be corrected by other correspondents. Jon Benjamin, chief executive of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, explained that this stance is not acceptable: "It should not be for members of a minority to defend themselves against attack while the public service broadcaster facilitates those attacks."

Mark Gardner of the Community Security Trust also focussed on the misuse of taxpayers’ money, which funds the BBC, to express racist, anti-Semitic opinions.

The BBC also found itself under attack when Bari Atwan, editor of an Arabic daily newspaper and a frequent commentator on BBC News 24, said that "if the Iranian missiles strike Israel, I will go to Trafalgar Square and dance with delight."

The BBC stated that "while some statements may be offensive to some of its audience, a clear public interest outweighs the possible offense."

362 EE  Sun, Sep 9, 2007 7:08:58am
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping that it will eat him last


--Sir Winston Churchill
[Link: www.quotationspage.com...]

363 MattMacD  Sun, Sep 9, 2007 10:10:11am

re: #362 EE

--Sir Winston Churchill

Who is a big part of british culture (despite the left trying to delete him from our memories, orwellian-style).


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