LGF

-RetweetGiuliani In the Lion's Den

Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 12:42:45 pm PDT

Can Rudy win over the social cons by promising to be honest about his views?

Former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, walking into a political lion’s den, told the year’s largest gathering of social conservatives that he is “not always the best example of faith” but that their similarities are much greater than their differences.

“Isn’t it better that I tell you what I really believe instead of changing all my positions?” Giuliani told an audience of 2,000 at the Family Research Council’s Values Voters Summit at a Washington hotel. “I believe trust is more important than 100 percent agreement.”

The audience, generally hostile to Giuliani, recognized the shot at former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, and laughter and a few cheers spread across the room. ...

Giuliani paid obeisance to the group’s concerns by speaking at length about his support for school choice, home schooling, conservative judges and Israel. All drew earnest – even enthusiastic – applause. He also gave a detailed plan for reducing abortions and increasing adoptions, the meatiest policy element of his speech.

It was the “everything but” approach – he could agree with the audience on almost everything except whether a woman should be able to choose an abortion, which he supports.

NZ Bear was there, and he gives Giuliani a rave review.

I think this was a truly great speech: nearly pitch-perfect for the audience and about as well received as could possibly be hoped for by the Giuliani camp. I’m about ready to declare it “brilliant”, in fact. Given how potentially hostile this audience might have been, the fact that he received positive applause throughout his delivery that seemed honestly enthusiastic is truly remarkable.

Besides that, the substance was great. It was probably the best-written speech I’ve heard this weekend, full of great phrases that hit just the right notes.

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439 comments

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1 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:44:32pm

From the link:

“Isn’t it better that I tell you what I really believe instead of changing all my positions?” Giuliani told an audience of 2,000 at the Family Research Council's Values Voters Summit at a Washington hotel. “I believe trust is more important than 100 percent agreement.

Can Rudy win by being honest? I think he can.

2 nyc redneck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:45:48pm

GO RUDY. (and keep the cell phone off, please.)

3 Racer X  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:48:21pm

I'm liking Rudy more and more. He understands who the real enemy is. Is he perfect? No way. Can he beat the Lying Clintons™? Yep.

4 R.A.D. Dad  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:48:25pm

Of course Rudy can win, he's been chosen by the king makers. The press anointed him and focused on him before he ever announced, those who want to push this country further to the left anointed him. If he wins and the Dems lose, it's a win win, either way they get to see the leadership of this country move further left and the social conservatives agenda silenced from positions of power.

5 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:49:23pm

I heard this on the radio as we were shopping -- the poll came out 50% for Rudy, which is a great showing considering all the press about how conservative evangelicals could not possibly support him.

6 Spiny Norman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:49:49pm

Ruh-roh.

LGF flame war in 5... 4... 3...

7 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:49:58pm
I think this was a truly great speech: nearly pitch-perfect for the audience and about as well received as could possibly be hoped for by the Giuliani camp. I’m about ready to declare it “brilliant”, in fact. Given how potentially hostile this audience might have been, the fact that he received positive applause throughout his delivery that seemed honestly enthusiastic is truly remarkable.

Giuliani is a terrific speaker if people would just listen. But one not only has to be a good speaker but also a good leader. Rudi has proven to be a good leader and yes, he had his foibles but who doesn't?

He got results. He will get results. He knows the threat of Islamism and he threw Arafat's ass out of the Lincoln Center when no one else dared to.

8 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:50:36pm

re: #6 Spiny Norman

Ruh-roh.

LGF flame war in 5... 4... 3...

Flame war?

Really?

Hi Spiny

9 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:50:45pm

Guliani is not afraid!

The right wing isn't the entire republican party!

As a matter of fact, with the democraps floundering, you get two see BOTH PARTIES are in trouble. Because? Both of them get from 34% TO 37% of voters "identifying" with them.

EVERYBODY ELSE IS UNAFFILIATED.

Can Guiliani change the party, enough, so that he gets the nomination?

Or does Hillary become president?

If you think Hillary's not popular, you haven't seen the negatives Nixon carried in with him, when he won the White House.

Okay.

How did Nixon leave the White House? Hmm?

You think the MSM goes after Hillary with the same vigor?

One thing that will never work in politics, is calling people names.

As to blasting people because they're not as orthodox as you? Then you just don't understand the hearts and minds of the unaffiliated.

The word's not "secular."

Unaffiliated covers more territory. And, it means people are keeping their money in their pockets. And, their ideas within the MAINSTREAM.

Call it "not getting influenced by Holy Rollers."

If this threat didn't face the insiders within the republican party? Then, yes, the right wing base would rule.

In other words? Hillary's no guarantee that if she's nominated, it's a "slam dunk" party for republicans.

In 1968, Hubert Humphrey learned this lesson, well.

10 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:51:22pm

re: #4 R.A.D. Dad

Of course Rudy can win, he's been chosen by the king makers. The press anointed him and focused on him before he ever announced, those who want to push this country further to the left anointed him. If he wins and the Dems lose, it's a win win, either way they get to see the leadership of this country move further left and the social conservatives agenda silenced from positions of power.


You can't truly believe that. The press has a long standing negative relationship with Rudy since his first day in public office. What's the good book got to say about false witness?

11 jwbaumann  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:51:25pm

Sounds like he put a lot of serious, non-pandering, coalition building effort into this, which is exactly what we'll need from whichever candidate gets the GOP nod.

12 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:52:16pm

re: #9 Carol Herman

This is where the Independents.. and more and more are becoming Independent voters... come in..

13 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:52:29pm

Three of the republican condendahs have had cancer. Guiliani. Fred Thompson. And, McCain.

A lot of luck is also needed to get to 2008 with a presidential condendah who can whip Hillary.

Here? Guiliani shows that you go into the ring! You don't demand that the lion gets his teeth pulled, either.

14 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:53:04pm

That's how Reagan won, by telling America what he wants to do, not what he thought we wanted to hear.

I disagree with him on a few things but at least I know where he stands.

15 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:53:08pm

BTW... there was a verdict at the Holy Land Foundation Trial

Holy Verdict Reached After 19 Days of Deliberations

16 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:53:08pm

RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!
RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!

17 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:53:27pm

re: #6 Spiny Norman

Ruh-roh.

LGF flame war in 5... 4... 3...

Very funny, Spiny!

LOL!

~ENT

18 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:53:45pm

Good for Rudi. Trust is more important than 100% agreement. He has the right attitude about a number of things - including all of the really major ones. We have let the abortion issue hijack our politics for FAR too long. We don't have time to waste anymore if we intend to remain a nation.

19 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:54:12pm

re: #10 Thanos

re: #4 R.A.D. Dad

Of course Rudy can win, he's been chosen by the king makers. The press anointed him and focused on him before he ever announced, those who want to push this country further to the left anointed him. If he wins and the Dems lose, it's a win win, either way they get to see the leadership of this country move further left and the social conservatives agenda silenced from positions of power.

You can't truly believe that. The press has a long standing negative relationship with Rudy since his first day in public office. What's the good book got to say about false witness?

You're right, Thanos. The press does have a long standing negative relationship with not only Rudy... but all things Republican.
A double negative

20 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:54:26pm

re: #16 MandyManners

hee hee!

Hi Mandy!

21 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:55:12pm

re: #20 Ginn

Hi, Ginn!

22 ted  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:55:33pm

Proud member of RudyforPresident since 2006.

23 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:56:18pm

re: #22 ted

Since September, 2002, for me.

24 shiplord kirel  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:56:41pm

OT

I just talked to the Xanadoo people about their lame-ass internet setup and they suggested something called an "extension kit" to solve my connectivity problems (18 KbS). It only costs 59.95. What percentage of users do you suppose need this to get the promised broadband speeds from this idiotic system? Anyone want to bet it's 100%? I'm just 1700 feet from one of their towers, btw, and only a mile and a half from another one.

25 Opinionated  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:56:59pm

The United States and Western Civilization will need a very unique proven leader in 2009-2013.

Everyone has heard the Flood Story.

A town is threatened with flooding, and the police evacuate everyone . One guy refuses to leave, saying, "I trust that God will save me." As the waters rise, a fire engine, motorboat and helicopter all try to pluck the man from the flood. Finally he is washed away. When he finds himself before the throne of God, he is indignant. "Why didn't you save me from the flood?" he demands of the Almighty. God replies, "What do you think the cop, fire engine, boat and helicopter were all about?"

In 2008, the flood is a Democrat.

In 2008, IMO, Giuliani is cop, fire engine and helicopter.

26 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:56:59pm

re: #23 MandyManners

re: #22 ted

Since September, 2002, for me.

Shit. 2001.

Worst typo I've ever made.

27 blacque jacques shellacque  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:57:07pm

“Isn’t it better that I tell you what I really believe instead of changing all my positions?” Giuliani told an audience of 2,000 at the Family Research Council’s Values Voters Summit at a Washington hotel. “I believe trust is more important than 100 percent agreement.”

Yes it is, but face it - the guy's a RINO.

28 zombie  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:57:33pm

I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.

People aren't stupid. They know that electing Hillary would be a disaster in many more ways than their mild disagreements with Giuliani.

29 Albertanator  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:58:06pm

Let's put it this way...As a Christian and a So Con, I am appalled at the decadence that we in the West are sliding into and it is dangerous...

That being said, Christians by and large, will vote for the best candidate regardless whether it is Rudy or John or Fred...THEY realize that if they don't, the nightmare...and I do mean nightmare, of Hillary or Obama becomes a reality...

Christians, and their are many in America, may not like what the GOP is offering but most do see the bigger picture...

As a Western Canadian and Conservative, I only wish I could vote in your upcoming elections...ANYTHING except for Ron Paul, I will support...even though I have serious moral disagreements with some of the GOP, THYE are still MILES better then anything from the Dems...

I think you can be assured come election day, most Christians will follow my line of thinking...they realize the international ramifications if they sit at home and allow the evil that is Hillary or Obama or Edwards et al, to be elected!

Thanks

30 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:58:07pm

re: #27 blacque jacques shellacque

“Isn’t it better that I tell you what I really believe instead of changing all my positions?” Giuliani told an audience of 2,000 at the Family Research Council’s Values Voters Summit at a Washington hotel. “I believe trust is more important than 100 percent agreement.”

Yes it is, but face it - the guy's a RINO.

Could be true. But so what?

31 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:58:46pm

re: #25 Opinionated

The United States and Western Civilization will need a very unique proven leader in 2009-2013.

Everyone has heard the Flood Story.

A town is threatened with flooding, and the police evacuate everyone . One guy refuses to leave, saying, "I trust that God will save me." As the waters rise, a fire engine, motorboat and helicopter all try to pluck the man from the flood. Finally he is washed away. When he finds himself before the throne of God, he is indignant. "Why didn't you save me from the flood?" he demands of the Almighty. God replies, "What do you think the cop, fire engine, boat and helicopter were all about?"

In 2008, the flood is a Democrat.

In 2008, IMO, Giuliani is cop, fire engine and helicopter.

Yeah.. cool post!

32 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:58:56pm

re: #24 shiplord kirel

OT

I just talked to the Xanadoo people about their lame-ass internet setup and they suggested something called an "extension kit" to solve my connectivity problems (18 KbS). It only costs 59.95. What percentage of users do you suppose need this to get the promised broadband speeds from this idiotic system? Anyone want to bet it's 100%? I'm just 1700 feet from one of their towers, btw, and only a mile and a half from another one.

Is it wireless cdma or is it directional WIFI?

33 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:59:18pm

Rudy promsises to nominate conservative judges and that's the thing that should matter the most to the social conservatives...

Honestly, social conservatives love to hold up Uncle Ron as their role model Prez, but Uncle Ron did not do much to promote their agenda - GWB, on the other hand, has.

34 zombie  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:59:32pm

re: #29 Albertanator

Yup. Your comment #29 and my #28 said exactly the same thing.

35 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 12:59:48pm

re: #28 zombie

If they stay home, it'll be the same as voting for Clinton.

36 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:00:18pm

re: #28 zombie

I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.

People aren't stupid. They know that electing Hillary would be a disaster in many more ways than their mild disagreements with Giuliani.


Lets hope they far-right conservatives don't run someone as a third party candidate and split the party. That would give Shrillary an advantage.

37 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:00:18pm

re: #24 shiplord kirel

OT

I just talked to the Xanadoo people about their lame-ass internet setup and they suggested something called an "extension kit" to solve my connectivity problems (18 KbS). It only costs 59.95. What percentage of users do you suppose need this to get the promised broadband speeds from this idiotic system? Anyone want to bet it's 100%? I'm just 1700 feet from one of their towers, btw, and only a mile and a half from another one.

That is outrageous Shiplord. A decent $9 a month dialup will get you 3X that speed. Surfglobal will do you. And they should have you hooked up in about 10 minutes. I keep them around as a backup.

38 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:00:20pm

re: #29 Albertanator

Christians, and their are many in America, may not like what the GOP is offering but most do see the bigger picture...

Yes, the "bigger picture." Something Nancy Pelosi never sees.

39 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:01:17pm

re: #12 Ginn

re: #9 Carol Herman

This is where the Independents.. and more and more are becoming Independent voters... come in..

Ah, but how will they vote?

Remember, out there, once, was Ross Perot!

Up ahead? Hillary against a republican nominee? If it shapes up this way, in what category would it matter "who that nominee was?"

Independents, when voting, are a real force!

And, as I said, Nixon got in! (If you lived in New York City at the time? You'd have been surprised he even had a chance.)

Then? You'd have been surprised at what happened when the press went after him! And, the GOP couldn't hold in the HOUSE. Rodino threw in the towel. And, Nixon resigned.

Again. I do not predict the future!

But if Hillary gets in? The press will cover her back. She's not Nixon!

I bet this shakes up a lot of very committed, right wing, republicans. They see the mess in congress. They see what happens when politicians are less than likely to "fulfill" campaign promises.

As a matter of fact, it was Ann Coulter; I think the last time she was a guest on Drudge's radio show. Which, alas is no more. They were talking about Fred Thompson. And, the fact that in Tennessee, Fred had to appeal to very conservative republican voters.

And, Ann NAILED IT. She said "politicians learn to say what they have to say TO GET THE VOTE." (It's like taking a woman's panties off. Once you've done it once, you're not about to stick around.)

Campaigning is about foreplay.

Lots of people are now well aware of the risks of holding tight to very conservative positions. Since it tends to set off alarm bells among Independents.

You've got no guarantees how that vote will go, either.

And, you have Bush, sitting in the Oval Office, about to "create" a terrorist state, he wants to force Israel to live with ...

Think of the voters.

Think of how wide a range you get to cover with a Bell Curve.

And, why you can't preach politics to anyone. Well, you can. But then? Did you know the WHIGS, in their day, made enough mistakes to disappear? They were the Nativists. The Conservatives of their time. They were against the newly arriving Germans and Irish. And, they made sure to pick positions were the losers congregated.

Sure. Lincoln was a WHIG.

Guiliani is a republican.

And, until this thing settles there's a lot of things Americans want to fix. But politicians tend not to want to do anything at all.

40 Dead Sea Squirrel  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:01:35pm

For true-blue, hard-core, prolife, social conservatives, almost every election is a choice between the lesser of two evils. If Rudy is believable about appointing Scalias and Thomases to the Supreme Court, he'll get the prolife votes.

Anything but Hillary

41 squarepeg  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:01:59pm

re: #28 zombie

I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.

That is an easy one, my friend. But what about every single middle-of-the-roader who doesn't read and who has vague notions about "the first woman president" and "the Iraq mess" and "New Yorkers say they don't like him" and "it's time for change"? Those are the ones I'm worried about.

42 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:02:03pm

re: #28 zombie

I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.

People aren't stupid. They know that electing Hillary would be a disaster in many more ways than their mild disagreements with Giuliani.

People are already starting to say she is not electable. And not "republican" women either. Not one of my daughters would vote for her, including those that are far more liberal than I am. And I mean frothing at the mouth not gonna vote for her.

43 Spiny Norman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:02:47pm

re: #28 zombie

I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.

People aren't stupid. They know that electing Hillary would be a disaster in many more ways than their mild disagreements with Giuliani.

I hate to disagree with you, but I'm convinced many of them will stay home if Giuliani is nominated. People aren't stupid, just stubborn and occasionally vindictive:

The country will deserve Hillary for not seeing what they "see".

44 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:03:35pm

Did someone say 'flame war ' ?

:)

45 blacque jacques shellacque  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:04:32pm

Could be true. But so what?

I want someone who's going to stick mostly to conservative principles, such as unintrusive government, leaving our 2nd Amendment rights intact, and curbing government spending. The immigration laws of our country need to be enforced, as well. If he's not going to do any of those, what's the point of supporting the guy?

46 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:05:04pm

If Guiliani is the Republican candidate, I'll vote for him.
But I'll be working on acquiring a few un-registered weapons just in case...

Power to the Correct People!

47 Opinionated  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:05:09pm

re: #43 Spiny Norman

re: #28 zombie

I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.People aren't stupid. They know that electing Hillary would be a disaster in many more ways than their mild disagreements with Giuliani.
I hate to disagree with you, but I'm convinced many of them will stay home if Giuliani is nominated. People aren't stupid, just stubborn and occasionally vindictive:

The country will deserve Hillary for not seeing what they "see".

The manifest vitriolic hatred of Giuliani visible at Freerepublic is evidence for your opinion.

48 Spiny Norman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:05:23pm

re: #44 mama winger

Did someone say 'flame war ' ?

:)

And I just contributed to it.

::hangs head::

In my defense, I didn't "flame" an individual commenter, just a general mindset.

49 Shane  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:05:26pm

It doesn't matter how the president feels about abortion. He isn't the one who passes the laws to make the policy. He can veto a bill but he doesn't set the policy. He sets the policy and tone of foreign relations. The republicans need to get smart and realize this. Talk to your senators and congressman about abortion policy.

50 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:05:29pm

Perhaps our fundamentalist Christian brothers should heed Christs teachings.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
Jesus tells those who'd like to stone to death an adulteress that whoever among them that is without sin should "cast the first stone
.
"

51 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:07:06pm

re: #33 DeafDog

A STRICT CONSTRUCTIONIST means someone who abides by tradition. If you see the law there now? That's it.

He said NO LITMUS TESTS.

And, unlike Bush, he won't be surrounded by inept people. Or James Baker and his law firm Baker, Botts, Moneybags.

No Harriet Meirs, either.

Sure. It's a bigger question if Bush goes out throwing America's weight towards the terrorists. Or not. (Heck, I don't know!) I just know he can't seem to extricate himself from trouble.

Like thinking Harriet Meirs belonged on the Supreme'O's bench.

You know Andy Card had to hit Bush in the head three times to get him to pay attention? Meirs was that bad! As they rehearsed her; she started to mumble.

Now, that would have looked just great, huh?

A raccoon who mumbles when the senators go on a feeding frenzy.

52 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:07:13pm

re: #49 Shane
Bro, your parents gave you a good name.

53 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:07:15pm

re: #45 blacque jacques shellacque

Could be true. But so what?

I want someone who's going to stick mostly to conservative principles, such as unintrusive government, leaving our 2nd Amendment rights intact, and curbing government spending. The immigration laws of our country need to be enforced, as well. If he's not going to do any of those, what's the point of supporting the guy?

Oh I agree! I was just thinking... I don't want to hear "promises" I want to hear solutions.

54 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:07:25pm

re: #50 shanec99

This is a false analogy.

We are not talking about judging or not judging someone for their sins. We are talking about selecting a leader who best represents our views and our interests.

Voting is itself a judgment. We are expected to use our judgment in matters such as these.

55 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:07:30pm

re: #39 Carol Herman

(It's like taking a woman's panties off. Once you've done it once, you're not about to stick around.)


Now you've lost me.

56 jwbaumann  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:07:47pm

re: #18 galloping granny

Good for Rudi. Trust is more important than 100% agreement. He has the right attitude about a number of things - including all of the really major ones. We have let the abortion issue hijack our politics for FAR too long. We don't have time to waste anymore if we intend to remain a nation.

I can't let this just pass (and this will not be a rant).

Those who support the abolition of abortion generally have deeply held, kindhearted, best intention, non-political reasons for doing so.

I am one of them.

If Rudy is going to win the general election, he cannot do it without the votes of those who wish to end abortion.

Please, please, do not use language which by its nature will tend to repel those voters. Stating that the abortion issue has hijacked our politics is not the kind of inclusive language we need right now.

Rudy has a different view on abortion than most every "social conservative," yet he appears to be actively working to not allow that to be a wedge issue which splits the GOP. Let's please all attempt to approach this issue in the same way. Do not show eagerness to expel the religious right/social conservatives - we need each other in this election cycle.

57 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:07:53pm

re: #50 shanec99

Perhaps our fundamentalist Christian brothers should heed Christs teachings.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
Jesus tells those who'd like to stone to death an adulteress that whoever among them that is without sin should "cast the first stone
.
"

And then he told the adultress "Go, and sin no more."

PTTCP

58 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:08:44pm

re: #39 Carol Herman

#39 Carol Herman 10/20/07 1:01:17 pm reply quote report 0
re: #12 Ginn

re: #9 Carol Herman

This is where the Independents.. and more and more are becoming Independent voters... come in..

Ah, but how will they vote?

Yes, well, I'm an Independent. Independents are independent for a variety of reasons.

We used to by called Swing voters, didn't we?

59 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:08:49pm

re: #41 squarepeg

There are no "easy" ones.

You either get people to join you. Or you don't.

But if the republican pick is Guiliani. AND his health holds out! Then, I think hillary would be toast.

Ya know, it wouldn't make Bill sad to see her lose.

60 hayseed  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:08:58pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Roll Tide

61 EC Marm  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:09:46pm

re: #44 mama winger
I'm gonna sit this debate out. Rudy is gonna have to twist my arm a lot harder than that.

62 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:10:07pm

re: #45 blacque jacques shellacque

Could be true. But so what?

I want someone who's going to stick mostly to conservative principles, such as unintrusive government, leaving our 2nd Amendment rights intact, and curbing government spending. The immigration laws of our country need to be enforced, as well. If he's not going to do any of those, what's the point of supporting the guy?

So which of Rudy's positions are out of line with the constitution?

OT: Did anyone ever figure out who Razor Face was?

63 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:10:17pm

re: #39 Carol Herman

Carol, I agree with a lot of what you have to say. That said, I think you are only partially righa about how the press will treat he once in office. Sure, the press will treat solid economic performance as Hillary's gift to us (like they did for Dollar Bill), but her personal life will sell lots of magazines, so we will get to read about it all the time.

As Dollar Bill slips - and he will slip - she will get pilloried. It will be tabloid stuff - checking out at the supermarket - kind of stuff. Get ready to explaing to your kids what the Clintons were doing with a Cigar.

64 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:10:47pm

God loves Rudy.

65 Spiny Norman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:10:49pm

re: #49 Shane

It doesn't matter how the president feels about abortion. He isn't the one who passes the laws to make the policy. He can veto a bill but he doesn't set the policy. He sets the policy and tone of foreign relations. The republicans need to get smart and realize this. Talk to your senators and congressman about abortion policy.

Since Ronald Reagan didn't outlaw abortion by decree, you think some people would realise that...

One could present a reasonable argument that, in many respects, George W Bush has been anything but Reaganesque, but look who he appointed to the Supreme Court.

66 EC Marm  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:11:26pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

God loves Rudy.


Got a link for that?

67 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:11:58pm

re: #54 mama winger

Look at the whole body of what he has done, not a few isolated items.

I do not agree with him on everything, hell, I did not agree with Pres Reagan on everything either.

But the alternative to him is scary, and I agree with more than 90% of the policies he advocates.

So here are my choices, a guy who I agree with in more than 90% of the cases, and a political party that is hostile to me and everything I believe. It's a no brainer really.

68 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:12:24pm

re: #61 EC Marm

Speaking of debates; The Republicans are debating tomorrow in Florida. Not sure what time.

69 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:12:43pm

re: #56 jwbaumann

re: #18 galloping granny

Good for Rudi. Trust is more important than 100% agreement. He has the right attitude about a number of things - including all of the really major ones. We have let the abortion issue hijack our politics for FAR too long. We don't have time to waste anymore if we intend to remain a nation.

I can't let this just pass (and this will not be a rant).

Those who support the abolition of abortion generally have deeply held, kindhearted, best intention, non-political reasons for doing so.

I am one of them.

If Rudy is going to win the general election, he cannot do it without the votes of those who wish to end abortion.

Please, please, do not use language which by its nature will tend to repel those voters. Stating that the abortion issue has hijacked our politics is not the kind of inclusive language we need right now.

Rudy has a different view on abortion than most every "social conservative," yet he appears to be actively working to not allow that to be a wedge issue which splits the GOP. Let's please all attempt to approach this issue in the same way. Do not show eagerness to expel the religious right/social conservatives - we need each other in this election cycle.

The abortion issue has dominated our politics for 30+ years - and we have lost some darned good people because they weren't on the "right" side of the issue.

When I say that the abortion issue has hijacked our politics I do not mean just social conservatives are to blame. Liberals, too, have equal blame in the game. BOTH sides have supported - or not - candidates not because they were the best man or woman available for the job but entirely because of their stance on this single issue.

We need that to stop.

70 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:13:08pm

Later, Lizards!

71 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:13:09pm

re: #39 Carol Herman

Campaigning is about foreplay.

Yes, of course.

I would never "date" Hillary.

72 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:13:25pm

re: #57 IslandLibertarian

Which Island bro?

73 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:13:27pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

God loves Rudy.

Oh listen to you!

(lol)

74 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:14:09pm

re: #59 Carol Herman

re: #41 squarepeg

There are no "easy" ones.

You either get people to join you. Or you don't.

But if the republican pick is Guiliani. AND his health holds out! Then, I think hillary would be toast.

Ya know, it wouldn't make Bill sad to see her lose.

Who the heck are you kidding? Haven't you heard them talking about "OUR presidency" and "OUR return" and "OUR Presidential team." Hillary's run is all about an end-run around the Constitution for Bill.

75 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:14:24pm

re: #66 EC Marm

Republicans 10:14
"God loveth all the creatures of the land and Rudy too"

76 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:14:49pm

re: #19 Ginn

Rudy has no trouble with the press!

I love the stuff that's out there on FDR! You think the press "was kind?"

He'd pull stunts. Like in one. There was a press conference. He managed to say "any questions," and before you could breathe he said "no," so I'm out'da here.

No one in the press was ever able to beat him at "bon mots." Retorts. Comebacks. The man thoroughly enjoyed the play as well.

Nixon? Never could look Americans in the eye and talk straight.

Bush? He carries a genetic handicap.

But Guiliani? Oh, my. I relish the thought of him coming on to answer questions. Off the cuff. And, with panache.

JFK had a little of this. (For a lightweight. He was good on his feet. People loved looking at him. And, laughing when he'd "retort" the press.)

Again. The reason you go to see football games, is to watch the pros. CONTEST, is so much a part of POLITICS, it's on par with heavy weight bouts.

Too bad Bush got in.

Too, too bad the Bonkeys ran clowns, after Bill, like Gore. And, Kerry.

Well? Sometimes getting elected is "who you know, backstage."

This time around? If you want Hillary, then overlook Guiliani.

Why do you think so many people are watching?

77 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:14:51pm

re: #57 IslandLibertarian

Would you use the same standard to judge Rudy's rivals in the race, especially his Democratic ones?

78 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:15:18pm

re: #73 Ginn

God loves us all.

79 Crimsonfisted  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:15:26pm

I prefer Jeri to Judy. He needs to keep her at a minimum or get her an image consultant. Not to be snarky, but after shrillary, it is wonderful to have classy First and Second Ladies. I would like to see more of them in the White House.

80 blacque jacques shellacque  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:15:39pm

I don't want to hear "promises" I want to hear solutions.

I don't mind promises, as long as the guy follows through, and is willing to step right up to the plate when it's time to, in an effort to deliver on those promises. Proposals are all fine and dandy, but when the detractors start trying to derail your efforts, that's the time to throw in more weight and effort.

Seems that there hasn't been a lot of that the past number of years...the exception being "immigration reform", which IMO was the wrong issue to push.

81 EC Marm  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:15:41pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

Speaking of debates; The Republicans are debating tomorrow in Florida. Not sure what time.


Thanks, I'll watch for it. Fred! is taking a pounding with the vega$ types. He's gonna have to shine just to gain the ground he lost the past two weeks.

82 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:15:47pm

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

83 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:16:00pm

re: #67 shanec99

re: #54 mama winger

Look at the whole body of what he has done, not a few isolated items.

I do not agree with him on everything, hell, I did not agree with Pres Reagan on everything either.

But the alternative to him is scary, and I agree with more than 90% of the policies he advocates.

So here are my choices, a guy who I agree with in more than 90% of the cases, and a political party that is hostile to me and everything I believe. It's a no brainer really.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize he was the Republican nominee already. I must have slept thru the entire primary season.

84 squarepeg  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:16:37pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

re: #66 EC Marm

Republicans 10:14
"God loveth all the creatures of the land and Rudy too"

Republicans 10:15
"God can't conceiveth how the hell anyone could ever let Hillary be prez."

85 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:17:55pm

re: #51 Carol Herman

Do we agree or do we disagree? Bush has nominated two of the best judges to the court, are we agreed? Rudy says he wants folks on the bench like the bush nominees. Agree? That is good. Agree?

Regarding Meirs - Harry Reid asked for Harriet Miers. Bush thought about it and thought it over and called Harry's bluff. Miers then blew up, but so what. The end result was that the Dems were out of ammo and Alito got in. So what if there were a few silly stories in the middle, the results there are ok.

86 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:18:01pm

re: #83 mama winger

Shhh... drink your Rudy-Aid.

87 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:18:19pm

re: #83 mama winger

Mama, I agree with you, he is not... you are right. I stand corrected.

Debate is healthy.

88 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:18:35pm

Crist: State GOP primary will determine next president

Greer urged partisans to remain united, saying that Democrats' best hope at wining the White House is to divide Republicans.

"We must remember, regardless if we disagree with one particular candidate's position ... at the end of the day ... any Republican holding the office of president of the United States is better than any Democrat any day of the week," he said.

"We must support our nominee with every ounce of energy that each of us possess," Greer advised, his voice rising.

"If not, ladies and gentlemen, we shall watch Hillary Rodham Clinton sworn in on the Capitol steps as the next commander-in-chief of our United States Armed Forces," he concluded, as the crowd erupted in hisses and boos. "This is a scene that our nation cannot afford to witness."

Amen.

89 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:18:39pm

re: #54 mama winger

One vote per person.

Gosh, I can remember stories from my own youth. Before "divorce" became so pronounced. Where women would purposely vote against the candidate their husband's chose.

And, then? They'd lie. Until the guy dropped dead. And, they let their unhappy secrets spill out.

One vote. When 60-million of them is not considered a great turnout number.

Should put things in perspective.

90 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:19:32pm

re: #87 shanec99

re: #83 mama winger

Mama, I agree with you, he is not... you are right. I stand corrected.

Debate is healthy.

Thank you :)

91 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:19:49pm

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

92 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:19:56pm

I wish I could have seen the speech. I don't have a TV. Is there anyway to get it via my computer? I certainly hope that conservatives won't be so foolish as to stay home on election day.

A little OT but sort of related to what Albertnator said about the decadence in this country -- I was appalled by the recent news story about a school handing out oral contraceptives to middle school kids (remember, these can be as young as 11 years old). I got into a discussion on another board about it, in which I stated children should not be having sex, and I was ganged up on by about 6 people, all accusing me of being "moralistic." It is not a political board and I guess I hadn't realized just how "lib" the people were there. Only one person made a very brief, halfhearted statement of agreement with me, and no one really joined my side of the argument. It left me feeling that in general libs think it is perfectly okay for an 11 year old girl to be on oral contraceptives (never mind that it gives her a 5 fold increased risk of breast cancer, or that it increases cervical cancer risk, or that it increases bad cholesterol and triglycerides, or that it interferes with the pituitary-ovarian axis in a young girl whose hormones are just getting established). They also thought it fine if kids had multiple sexual partners! Geez.

If I had young children now, I would really be despairing. What do all the lizards do about this problem and where do you send your kids to school? When I was in school in the 70's, few girls under 14 were having sex and the ones that were wouldn't have admitted it! I think in 20 years or so, a number of these sexually exploited kids will have grown up and be sporting cervical and breast cancer, AIDS and various STDS and sexually related psychological trauma, and perhaps there will be a backlash. People will be starved for some morality. I just hope that they will have sense enough not to be lured by Islam, which will be waiting in the wings.

93 ziggyelman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:20:00pm

re: #25 Opinionated

The United States and Western Civilization will need a very unique proven leader in 2009-2013.

Everyone has heard the Flood Story.

A town is threatened with flooding, and the police evacuate everyone . One guy refuses to leave, saying, "I trust that God will save me." As the waters rise, a fire engine, motorboat and helicopter all try to pluck the man from the flood. Finally he is washed away. When he finds himself before the throne of God, he is indignant. "Why didn't you save me from the flood?" he demands of the Almighty. God replies, "What do you think the cop, fire engine, boat and helicopter were all about?"

In 2008, the flood is a Democrat.

In 2008, IMO, Giuliani is cop, fire engine and helicopter.


Well put! People that fear being "forced" to choose someone not right wing enough...well, if folks stay away to teach the republicans a lesson. Well, you will see situations with that middle school(The Pill without parental consent) squared, cubed all over this nation. Abortion on demand with a roving doctor going from school to school with Hillary in as prez...that'll teach Republicans! I am only slightly kidding. We do, and we DON'T know what we will get from Hillary...just imagine the worst, and work down...

94 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:20:32pm

re: #81 EC Marm

He really needs to step it up but I just don't think he has it in him.

95 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:20:52pm

re: #80 blacque jacques shellacque

I don't want to hear "promises" I want to hear solutions.

I don't mind promises, as long as the guy follows through, and is willing to step right up to the plate when it's time to, in an effort to deliver on those promises. Proposals are all fine and dandy, but when the detractors start trying to derail your efforts, that's the time to throw in more weight and effort.

Seems that there hasn't been a lot of that the past number of years...the exception being "immigration reform", which IMO was the wrong issue to push.

Rudy cleaned up a very dirty, grungy, filthy NYC. I see him as a can-do guy. I also see him as someone who knows his "stuff".

Immigration reform was a laugh. As someone who grew up in the southwest the impact of the illegal aliens... not "immigrants" is an issue that needs/needed to be addressed. Many of those who are angry at the Republican party are angry of this single issue.

96 itellu3times  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:20:55pm

re: #28 zombie
The point is more that they stay home.

97 EC Marm  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:21:00pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout
It's interesting to see that you are behind the Roman Catholic candidate, btw. According to Wiki, anyway.

98 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:21:02pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Ya like Rudy?

99 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:21:19pm

re: #83 mama winger

re: #67 shanec99

re: #54 mama winger

Look at the whole body of what he has done, not a few isolated items.

I do not agree with him on everything, hell, I did not agree with Pres Reagan on everything either.

But the alternative to him is scary, and I agree with more than 90% of the policies he advocates.

So here are my choices, a guy who I agree with in more than 90% of the cases, and a political party that is hostile to me and everything I believe. It's a no brainer really.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize he was the Republican nominee already. I must have slept thru the entire primary season.

hee- hee... good point!

100 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:22:07pm

Speaking of Rudy's health - that raises a very important point regarding his potential presidential nomination. Should Rudy win, he might be Very, Very well served to have a social conservative balancing the ticket. Brownback comes to mind, as he also provides good geographic balance, but a west coaster (Oregonian, I think) would be even better.

101 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:22:09pm

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

You just thrilled the Ron Paulians to no end!

102 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:23:06pm

Wanumba -- I am going to argue. First understand that I am prolife myself. I know, that's an unusual position for an aetheist.

What I find the pro-life movement lacks is persistence and patience, the two most important things in a long war. That's what all social change boils down to. You must convince, win over both hearts and minds, and take an inch at a time without surrendering things. Rudy will help inch the ball closer to our goals, and you will have a hard time convincing me otherwise.

I give you as an example my home state, Kansas. One of the reddest states on the map, and we have plenty of churches and church goers. We also have a Demoncratic Governor and and a several term Democratic Congressman where both should be Republican. This is due to conservative christians who although full of bluster and firm committed positions have yet to advance their cause an inch. They shoot down any republican who could win in Moores district. They put forth guvenatorial candidates who don't stand a chance in 100 of getting elected.

If Roe V Wade were repealed tomorrow, Governor Sebellius would veto any abortion controls voted through the state legislature. Do you really think the bluster and noise vs. realistic inch-at-a-time persistent realistic politicing and planning and enacting the small victories you can gain is more effective?

103 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:23:07pm

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

*Shudder*...Ron...or...Hill...So sad to even think this but I would still take Ron over Hillary.

104 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:23:42pm

re: #69 galloping granny


GG, I agree with you 100%.

105 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:23:52pm

re: #101 Ginn

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan


re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!
If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.
IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.
What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

You just thrilled the Ron Paulians to no end!

(opening the window)

I think I can hear them now.

106 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:24:42pm

re: #105 NJDhockeyfan

re: #101 Ginn

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!
If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.
IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.
What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

You just thrilled the Ron Paulians to no end!
(opening the window)

I think I can hear them now.

(LOL)

107 Spiny Norman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:25:01pm

re: #103 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan
re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!
If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?
*Shudder*...Ron...or...Hill...So sad to even think this but I would still take Ron over Hillary.

I wouldn't have much trouble picking an isolationist over a socialist.

108 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:25:23pm

re: #38 Ginn

re: #29 Albertanator

Christians, and their are many in America, may not like what the GOP is offering but most do see the bigger picture...

Yes, the "bigger picture." Something Nancy Pelosi never sees.

The HOUSE is up for re-election every two years.

Back in 1980, this meant that Ronald Reagan's COATTAILS brought in a lot of new members. (Especially from Texas. Tom DeLay said he was one of five new HOUSE members.)

What can pelosi do, IF the Bonkeys get to feel afraid?

I'm going along with Hillary being the Bonkey presidential nominee, here. Even though "I just don't know." But large, humongous hips are not COATTAILS!

Think about it. IF you were a member of the HOUSE today. And, you'd like to come back ... ?

What if I told you the Majority Chair is RENTED FURNITURE?

What makes you think someone can't tell her to give the "keys" to somebody else?

Just because you don't see the "For Sale" sign in front of the property, doesn't mean a sale isn't taking place. You never had a realtor just knock on your door?

Right now, within DC, there are great concerns!

And, this affects how people think. Where it gets even worse IF THEY PANIC.

Take nothing for granted!

Ah, my mom and I, walking along fancy Park Avenue, always pointed up and said, "you'd be surprised how man people in there are just plain unhappy."

She taught me not to confuse lives of others, because there are labels given to certain dwelling places. A complicated lesson? It made so much sense to me, when I was a kid.

I wouldn't take anything for granted.

Except? Well, BUYER'S REMORSE. And, I think a lot of politicians, on both sides of the aisle, get themselves sick, thinking about their leadership.

109 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:25:40pm

re: #92 American Jewess In Jerusalem

I wish I could have seen the speech. I don't have a TV. Is there anyway to get it via my computer? I certainly hope that conservatives won't be so foolish as to stay home on election day.

A little OT but sort of related to what Albertnator said about the decadence in this country -- I was appalled by the recent news story about a school handing out oral contraceptives to middle school kids (remember, these can be as young as 11 years old). I got into a discussion on another board about it, in which I stated children should not be having sex, and I was ganged up on by about 6 people, all accusing me of being "moralistic." It is not a political board and I guess I hadn't realized just how "lib" the people were there. Only one person made a very brief, halfhearted statement of agreement with me, and no one really joined my side of the argument. It left me feeling that in general libs think it is perfectly okay for an 11 year old girl to be on oral contraceptives (never mind that it gives her a 5 fold increased risk of breast cancer, or that it increases cervical cancer risk, or that it increases bad cholesterol and triglycerides, or that it interferes with the pituitary-ovarian axis in a young girl whose hormones are just getting established). They also thought it fine if kids had multiple sexual partners! Geez.

If I had young children now, I would really be despairing. What do all the lizards do about this problem and where do you send your kids to school? When I was in school in the 70's, few girls under 14 were having sex and the ones that were wouldn't have admitted it! I think in 20 years or so, a number of these sexually exploited kids will have grown up and be sporting cervical and breast cancer, AIDS and various STDS and sexually related psychological trauma, and perhaps there will be a backlash. People will be starved for some morality. I just hope that they will have sense enough not to be lured by Islam, which will be waiting in the wings.

We homeschool - for most of the reasons that you have just mentioned. And academics. We might consider a private, but there are none within a reasonable distance. And those don't seem to be any better @ the sex issues anyway. Worse if anything. One of the top private schools in the US (over in NH) had a huge scandal a couple of years back that made all the papers for weeks on end.

110 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:26:07pm

re: #103 Oh no...Sand People!

Ron Paul the truther...
Heavens no.

I would rather become a Mohammedan, move to Mecca, get four wives and put my behind in the air five times daily than see Ron Paul as President.

111 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:26:17pm

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

Ron Paul is without a chance.

How he gets to it, though, without enough money, could make for a good Keystone Cops feature.

112 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:27:13pm

re: #97 EC Marm

I thought they cut off his cracker supply.

113 FrogMarch  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:27:50pm

I think people should listen to Rudy and make up their own mind.

I just beg people to filter out the non-stop negative anti-Rudy propaganda that is pedaled by the DNC/MSM.

The DNC/MSM wants people to distrust Rudy and is working tirelessly to distort his image. All while softly singing how wonderful and perfect and caring Mrs. Bill Clinton is-- and ignoring any and all of the Clinton corruption.

114 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:28:12pm

re: #111 Carol Herman

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan


re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.


What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

Ron Paul is without a chance.

How he gets to it, though, without enough money, could make for a good Keystone Cops feature.

I smell a South Park episode.

115 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:29:05pm

re: #103 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

*Shudder*...Ron...or...Hill...So sad to even think this but I would still take Ron over Hillary.

The only contender that I can think of whom I would not take over Hillary is Obama.

116 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:30:03pm

re: #92 American Jewess In Jerusalem

What do all the lizards do about this problem and where do you send your kids to school?

About things like birth control and sex education - we handled it 'in house' and there was every expectation that our children would be abstinent until they were in a marriage relationship.

About the schools - we chose schools that reinforced our expectations. If anything, they were stricter than we were at home in regards to dating and PDA.

My kids didn't disappoint.

117 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:30:22pm

re: #107 Spiny Norman

re: #103 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!
If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is. IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

*Shudder*...Ron...or...Hill...So sad to even think this but I would still take Ron over Hillary.

I wouldn't have much trouble picking an isolationist over a socialist.

Glad you made that point. In 'Oh no...Sand People's' modern utopia, we bring all troops home, open up the Wyoming, Idaho, Utah oil reserves and Alaska's, close off the borders, put all power into defense and fire up the war machine. Then we wring our hands of this world and say, "Alright, we are no longer being involved for any reason other than economic trade, if there are any tariffs or unfair trade practices put on our goods we will take you down. You are also free to kill each other. Then when the blood bath ends, we will continue our 'manifest destiny' and you all will speak English and there will be a lot more stars on our flag."

/I guy can hope, right?...

118 EC Marm  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:30:22pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

I thought they cut off his cracker supply.


He can always go to San Fran. They give it to anyone. ('Sisters of Perpetual Indulgences' video, you prolly already saw)

119 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:31:21pm

re: #115 galloping granny

Why?

I would much prefer Obama than troofer Ron.

Obama at least does not suggest that 9/11 was a US govt sponsored conspiracy.

120 blacque jacques shellacque  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:32:26pm

So which of Rudy's positions are out of line with the constitution?

His past record on gun control is rather troubling. Proposing trigger locks, backing gun registration, supporting the Brady Bill, those don't reflect well on the guy. And then there's his illegal-immigration-isn't-a-crime view...

Personally, I find the guy very likeable. I'm just not convinced that his political leanings are worth taking a chance on, based on his past record.

121 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:33:31pm

re: #36 NJDhockeyfan

Okay. You're saying the religious right could fund a 3rd party run. So what?

Pat Buchanan can't even get 2%. Ditto, for Ralph Nader. (Those numbers are UNDER "matching funds.")

Maybe, it's time the abortion issue ENDS being divisive, instead?

Since "if" the threat is that conservatives stay home; or they run a candidate that pleases them, Americans deal with that by IGNORING them.

Unless you're in Florida. The ballot is designed like a butterfly. And, Jews vote for hilter's impersonator.

I bet, next time? People will handle their ballots, better.

And, Diebold will be OUT OF BUSINESS if their equipment contains no PAPER TRAIL!

Of course, that's just me thinking this. ONE VOTE. Nothing more. Nor less.

While people who go into a frenzy, thinking they're able to "bundle votes?" It isn't even like Hillary can "bundle" money.

122 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:33:32pm

One of Rudy's biggest problems is his arrogant, grating New York accent. No one outside the five boroughs wants to hear a typical New Yorker talk about the great way they did things in New York. Even if it's true.

123 Racer X  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:33:48pm

re: #117 Oh no...Sand People!

Glad you made that point. In 'Oh no...Sand People's' modern utopia, we bring all troops home, open up the Wyoming, Idaho, Utah oil reserves and Alaska's, close off the borders, put all power into defense and fire up the war machine. Then we wring our hands of this world and say, "Alright, we are no longer being involved for any reason other than economic trade, if there are any tariffs or unfair trade practices put on our goods we will take you down. You are also free to kill each other. Then when the blood bath ends, we will continue our 'manifest destiny' and you all will speak English and there will be a lot more stars on our flag."

/I guy can hope, right?...

Wow. You need to make your sarc tag bigger for that one.

124 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:34:18pm

re: #117 Oh no...Sand People!

/I guy? (What the heck did I type...? PIMF)

"Hello, I guy."
'Uh...ok...(weirdo!)'

Reminds me of an episode of "The Tick".
"I Arthur."...nevermind.

125 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:34:30pm

re: #119 shanec99

re: #115 galloping granny

Why?

I would much prefer Obama than troofer Ron.

Obama at least does not suggest that 9/11 was a US govt sponsored conspiracy.

He has no experience at anything whatever and he is, according to muslim faith, muslim. Never in a hundred million years.

126 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:35:32pm

Ron Paul the troofer. The guy is scary, he believes our government conspired to kill Americans rather than the Radical Muslim murderers who perpretrated the atrocity.

[Link: digg.com...]

127 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:36:04pm

re: #122 Q-Burn

One of Rudy's biggest problems is his arrogant, grating New York accent. No one outside the five boroughs wants to hear a typical New Yorker talk about the great way they did things in New York. Even if it's true.

Nah. John F. Kennedy's pahking of the cah in havahd yahd was FAR more grating than Rudi's accent - and he won even in the South.

128 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:36:31pm

re: #120 blacque jacques shellacque

So which of Rudy's positions are out of line with the constitution?

His past record on gun control is rather troubling. Proposing trigger locks, backing gun registration, supporting the Brady Bill, those don't reflect well on the guy. And then there's his illegal-immigration-isn't-a-crime view...

Personally, I find the guy very likeable. I'm just not convinced that his political leanings are worth taking a chance on, based on his past record.

Yeah, but that's not what I asked. His positions are firmly constitutional, and he's very much a realist - the situation in NY and the political realities of where he was at called for his actions if he was to do his job and protect his constituents.

You have little to fear from the guy on second ammendment -- he's for local laws on gun control, as it should be. If you don't think that's the right approach, what were the gun laws in Tombstone when Wyatt Earp was there?

129 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:37:28pm

re: #127 galloping granny

That's partly true, granny. People here in flyover country pretty much hate the whole "I'm a New Yorker" theme.

130 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:38:58pm

re: #125 galloping granny

Granny, Obama has more experience than Hillary, he served in the Illinois legislature and is now a US Senator.

Hillary's experience, Rose law firm and the US Senate.

Who is more qualified in Government?

Both I believe are unsuited, but Obama is less unsuited.

Regarding the matter of his faith... he says he is Christian, who am I to judge?

131 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:38:59pm

re: #100 DeafDog

I think he will balance the ticket with a female VP candidate - probably Condi Rice (even though she says she's going back to Stanford).

132 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:39:20pm

re: #42 galloping granny

"Not one of your daughters would vote for Hillary?"

Reminds me of Pauline Kael. Who was a writer on staff at the New Yorker. She wakes up to find, in 1968, that Nixon is elected. And, her reaction? "How could he win? None of her friends voted for him."

Anyhoo, if it's not Hillary for the Bonkeys, it won't be Obama, either.

But if the GOP screws up?

You ain't got no guarantees about what millions of Independents would do.

All you really know is that Hillary gets excellent support from the MSM.

So, if she blows into office? I can assure you, she'd grab the tiger by the tail, and heave out a lot of FBI personnel.

Not that Bob Woodward would take their calls!

Some games get played when only one side is in "possession" of the ball.

Too many people paying attention, now, for extremists to get honored.

Let alone those on the left! Hillary's not going to get stampeded by them!

And, for what it's worth, Guiliani holds his own when large scale political polling is done.

Nobody else out there on the GOP bench is that lucky.

Oh, if Hillary wins? The whole DC swamp, and eastern corridor, sighs relief, and relaxes.

133 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:39:20pm

re: #129 mama winger

And if we Midwestern conservatives are given the choice between

New York Liberal (D)

and

New York Liberal (R)


well, you can imagine our delight.

:)

134 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:39:33pm

re: #126 shanec99

Ron Paul the troofer. The guy is scary, he believes our government conspired to kill Americans rather than the Radical Muslim murderers who perpretrated the atrocity.

[Link: digg.com...]

Professed Libertartians who can't deal with reality scare the hell out of me. Objectivism is a big part of Libertarianism, and if Alisa Rosenbaum were alive today she would be on the front lines in the war on terror.

135 Charles  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:40:06pm

re: #122 Q-Burn

One of Rudy's biggest problems is his arrogant, grating New York accent. No one outside the five boroughs wants to hear a typical New Yorker talk about the great way they did things in New York. Even if it's true.

Never realized an accent could be "arrogant."

136 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:40:32pm

re: #118 EC Marm

I don't foresee Rudy putting on a dress again anytime soon.

137 Arkay  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:40:40pm

Maybe, it's time the abortion issue ENDS being divisive, instead?>>

By utter and immediate abolition. The same way slavery (its moral equivalent) ended being divisive. Nothing less is acceptable. 45 million dead children, remember. Always remember.

As for President Rudy? Never. He's an automatic nonstarter.

Sock puppets for aborters get nowhere in the GOP. For very, very good reason.

138 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:40:48pm

re: #134 Thanos
Bro you are preaching to the choir.

139 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:42:02pm

re: #135 Charles

Never realized an accent could be "arrogant."

Never underestimate the disdain of people who could not tell that Fargo was supposed to be funny. :)

140 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:42:24pm

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

A reminder about Reagan's win.

He was the governor of California, for a very successful two terms.

That means he came from a BLUE state. And, he won over the BLUE COLLAR DEMOCRATS.

Again, it's important to know how politicians are able to cover the differences, between regions, to get elected.

Ah, another reminder back to Abraham Lincoln.

He knew he was the ONLY republican candidate with NATIONAL APPEAL.

Favorite sons? This doesn't amount to a hill of beans when insiders get desperate. And, want to nominate someone better than John Dewey.

141 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:42:28pm

I am a libertarian at heart, but I also know what reality is and that cancels out my libertarianism.

142 itellu3times  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:42:37pm

Rudy took his shot, and it was a good shot.

He shows up, gets it done. Can't ask for more of an executive.

Rudy, Rudy, Rudy!

143 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:43:49pm

re: #138 shanec99

re: #134 Thanos
Bro you are preaching to the choir.


Sorry didn't mean to preach, just wanted to amplify your highly valid comment.

144 galloping granny  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:44:51pm

re: #130 shanec99

re: #125 galloping granny

Granny, Obama has more experience than Hillary, he served in the Illinois legislature and is now a US Senator.

Hillary's experience, Rose law firm and the US Senate.

Who is more qualified in Government?

Both I believe are unsuited, but Obama is less unsuited.

Regarding the matter of his faith... he says he is Christian, who am I to judge?

I don't think that either of them is qualified to head the largest "corporation" in the world. At least Hillary has some real-world experience in a law firm. Obama is a politician who has never done anything else. No real experience at anything except talking slick.

His muslim father says he is a muslim and raised him that way. In a madrassa. The entire muslim world says "once a muslim, always a muslim." AND asserts that it is perfectly OK to pretend to be Christian in the furtherance of the ummah and jihad. Not in a hundred million years will he get my vote and I will do everything in my power to make sure that he does not get the Presidency of my country either.

And BTW, I also don't like the way that both he and Hillary get in front of a Southern, black audience and fall all over themselves to put on a patently fake accent. They sound like pandering fools.

145 Opinionated  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:44:59pm

"David and Merrily Crowe of Tennessee, who run an evangelical group called Restore America, said they arrived at the convention hall this morning skeptical but curious about Mr. Giuliani. They came away moved by what they described as his “honesty” and “transparency.”

“My wife leaned over to me afterward and said, ‘I’m going to vote for him,’” Mr. Crowe said. “And I probably will, too.”"

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

146 EC Marm  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:45:12pm

re: #136 Killgore Trout

I don't foresee Rudy putting on a dress again anytime soon.


I just have to wonder about that. Wasn't there some tiny little voice in the back of his head that said, "You sure about this? Someday you might want to run for President, and being dressed in womens clothing might not cut it with some portion of the population?"
If not that, at least, "This hat with those gloves?"

147 steve  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:45:15pm

As far as I am concerned Rudi's "actions" will speak louder then his "words".
I am always leary of people who say "It is very important to me that you believe me." And this is what I am hearing from Rudi. I do not feel that I can trust hem.

IMHO

148 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:45:47pm

re: #55 Q-Burn

re: #39 Carol Herman

(It's like taking a woman's panties off. Once you've done it once, you're not about to stick around.)



Now you've lost me.

Then let me explain.

Men say the darnedest things when they want to seduce a female.

And, when they do?

Check out Monica Lewinsky's story. She was faithful and true to her boyfriend. She, alone, could have sided with the Republicans in the HOUSE. But she stood firm!

Bubba never returned the favor.

Women learn that lesson the hard way.

And, yes, in politics, even if it makes you squirm, the art of "getting votes," is on par with seductions.

Can give a terrible case of "buyer's remorse," afterwards.

149 itellu3times  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:45:57pm

re: #131 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

I think he will balance the ticket with a female VP candidate - probably Condi Rice (even though she says she's going back to Stanford).

I think not Condi.

More likely Ann Coulter, and that's about 0.000001% likely.

150 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:46:26pm

I look at abortion as similar to slavery. In 1835 many Americans who were otherwise decent, honest folks believed that this institution was morally justifiable. In hindsight we realize they were wrong, but hindsight is always 20/20.

I do believe that in 100 years abortion will have been relegated to the scrap-heap of human barbaric practices, along with slavery, frontal lobotomies (common even 50 years ago!), burning witches at the stake, and other inhumane practices.

The abortion issue is not going to be solved overnight, and it does not good whatsoever to paint those who unfortunately support this practice as being evil people. They aren't evil, although in my estimation (and that of millions of Americans) they are very morally misguided.

Rejecting Rudy over this one issue makes little sense.

Rejecting him over gun control actually makes more sense, since that is a far deeper existential threat to America. I'm not totally sure what is position on guns actually is, however...

151 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:47:02pm

re: #135 Charles

The fast, loud, assertive way typical New Yorkers speak grates on many. It's a knee-jerk thing. There was once a school in Norhtern California to help transplanted New Yorkers get rid of the accent that was holding them back.

152 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:47:25pm

Charles Rangel is an asshole.

"Referring to Andrew Giuliani's reportedly distant relationship with his father since the ugly bust-up of Mr. Giuliani's marriage with Donna Hanover," the article says, "Mr. Rangel said it was because 'sons respect and admire their fathers, but they love their mothers against cheating goddamn husbands.' ... Rangel said he regretted that all the personal problems surfaced so soon in the electoral process. 'I'm sorry this damned thing turned out so early because, really, just like [embattled former Giuliani aide Bernard] Kerik, it would have bombed his ass out.'"

The Giuliani campaign declined to comment to ABC News about the attack, referring a reporter to comments made in the story by Randy Mastro, a former Giuliani deputy mayor, who said of Rangle's remarks, "Comments like that are not worthy of a response."

153 Spiny Norman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:47:35pm

re: #139 mama winger

re: #135 Charles
Never realized an accent could be "arrogant."
Never underestimate the disdain of people who could not tell that Fargo was supposed to be funny. :)

Yah, you betcha.

;^)

154 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:48:17pm

re: #148 Carol Herman

OK.

155 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:48:23pm

re: #153 Spiny Norman

doncha know...

156 Spiny Norman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:48:54pm

re: #146 EC Marm

re: #136 Killgore Trout
I don't foresee Rudy putting on a dress again anytime soon.
I just have to wonder about that. Wasn't there some tiny little voice in the back of his head that said, "You sure about this? Someday you might want to run for President, and being dressed in womens clothing might not cut it with some portion of the population?"

If not that, at least, "This hat with those gloves?"

LMAO!

157 blacque jacques shellacque  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:48:58pm

he's for local laws on gun control, as it should be.

Local laws to restrict a Constitutional right. Nice.

Back him if you will; my position however, hasn't changed.

158 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:49:19pm

re: #147 steve

As far as I am concerned Rudi's "actions" will speak louder then his "words".
I am always leary of people who say "It is very important to me that you believe me." And this is what I am hearing from Rudi. I do not feel that I can trust hem.

IMHO

But if you look at his record he consistently does what he says he will. He doesn't mince words -- if he were duplicitous he would not have appeared in front of conservatives and given his views straight up.

I know folks feel burned by Bush, however don't tar Rudy with Bush disillusionment friend.

159 ornery elephant  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:50:13pm

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

If Charles Rangel was your father, you'd have him in a home. If Charles Rangel was your neighbor, you'd have him arrested.

160 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:50:38pm

Hill's Cash Eyed As Chinese-Laundered

October 20, 2007 -- Hillary Clinton's campaign has been raising huge piles of money in Chinatown, but some of it has come from donors who can't be located or who were improperly repaid for their contributions, according to The Post and other reports.
A search of Chinatown donors yesterday by The Post found several bogus addresses and some contributions that raised eyebrows.

Shin K. Cheng is listed twice in federal records for giving $1,000 donations to Clinton's campaign on April 17.

But the address recorded on campaign reports is a clinic for sexually transmitted diseases, hemorrhoids and skin disease.

No one at the address knew of a Shin K. Cheng.

Another donation came from a Shih Kan Chang on Canal Street. But the address listed is a shop that sells knock-off watches and other pirated goods. The sales clerk there did not know the donor.

Hsiao Yen Wang, a cook in Chinatown, is listed as giving Clinton $1,000 on April 13. Contacted yesterday, she told The Post she had written a check.

But it was on behalf of a man named David Guo, president of the Fujian American Cuisine Council, and Wang told The Post that Guo had repaid her for the $1,000 contribution.

Such "straw donations" are strictly prohibited by federal law.

In addition, yesterday's search by The Post also turned up several $1,000 donations from Chinatown that were made by cooks, dishwashers, a cashier and a college student.

The findings closely match a report yesterday by the Los Angeles Times that found a huge number of Chinatown donations from donors listing bogus addresses or in amounts unlikely, given the donor's occupation.

The Times examined 150 donors, one-third of whose addresses could not be found. As with the Post search, most of the donors are not registered to vote.

In April, for instance, the Clinton campaign raised $380,000 from a single fund-raiser in Chinatown, the Times said. By comparison, Sen. John Kerry raised $24,000 in Chinatown during his entire campaign.

The Clinton campaign dismissed the L.A. Times story as derogatory to Chinese-Americans.

"We do not ethnically profile donors," growled Howard Wolfson. "Asian-Americans in Chinatown and Flushing have the same right to contribute as every other American."

Campaign officials said they're always reviewing contributions to ensure compliance with federal rules, and, indeed, had found problems with some donations, though not necessarily the ones raised by the Times and The Post.

Oh, how I hope this will not go away!

161 Reluctant Democrat  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:51:00pm

The Republicans have lost the Congress by the use of politics and sound bites that carve out this niche and that niche in hopes of getting a majority. But promises are no substitute for principle. Spending is no substitute for principle.

We are hungry for a leader, and IMO Rudy appears to be it.

162 Ginn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:51:23pm

re: #159 ornery elephant

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

If Charles Rangel was your father, you'd have him in a home. If Charles Rangel was your neighbor, you'd have him arrested.

(lol) yep.

163 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:52:02pm

re: #157 blacque jacques shellacque

he's for local laws on gun control, as it should be.

Local laws to restrict a Constitutional right. Nice.

Back him if you will; my position however, hasn't changed.

Where local laws conflict with the constitution they will be overturned in Federal court if there are strict constructionist justices appointed right?

164 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:52:17pm

re: #159 ornery elephant

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

If Charles Rangel was your father, you'd have him in a home. If Charles Rangel was your neighbor, you'd have him arrested.

If Charles Rangel was my cat, I'd have him put to sleep.

165 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:52:33pm

moving upthread

166 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:52:36pm

re: #157 blacque jacques shellacque

The gun control issue is pretty much unforgivable. The man clearly doesn't understand the whole reason for the Second Ammendment.

167 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:52:37pm

re: #144 galloping granny

I could not support either of them, but he does not have the scandals surrounding him that Hillary does.

He has more legislative experience.

We should not punish the children because of the sins of their fathers.

Granny, I will not support either, but I do not find Obama an objectionable person, I think he is wrong on the issues, but a good guy.

Sen Clinton on the other hand I believe is less experienced in government, wrong on the issues and nothing I have read suggests that she is a nice person.

If I had to make a choice between them, and thank heavens I don't have to... Obama wins hands down.

Please forgive me but I must disagree with you in this matter.

168 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:52:42pm

re: #131 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

A woman, maybe, but Condi...I don't think she has it in her. You need a pit bull at VP...a social conservative female pitbull from the west coast...Granny from the Beverly Hillbillies comes to mind, but other than that I'm drawing a blank.

169 Opinionated  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:53:37pm

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

Conservatives should look at just how much the Liberal establishment of NYC hates Giuliani. With good reason from their point of view.

Liberals don't bother to hate Conservatives who are no threat to them.

Is there any other Republican running so despised by Liberals?

170 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:53:47pm

re: #167 shanec99

I do not find Obama an objectionable person, I think he is wrong on the issues, but a good guy.

Obama is the anti-christ.

Just thought you should know. :)

171 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:54:23pm

re: #168 DeafDog

re: #131 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

A woman, maybe, but Condi...I don't think she has it in her. You need a pit bull at VP...a social conservative female pitbull from the west coast...Granny from the Beverly Hillbillies comes to mind, but other than that I'm drawing a blank.

PICK ME ! PICK ME !

172 Yank in the EU  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:54:51pm

I'll certainly vote for Rudy if he gets the nomination.

That said, there are a number of grave problems among his positions, which are all well-known. I was particularly repulsed by his quoting the Bible to support an argument for moral relavitism and how we should not judge others. Utter nonsense and an error in reading the passage. Of course we must judge and reject certain people's positions as wrong, etc. Rudy, there, repeats one of the liberal talking points since the 60's, used by Kerry and Dean recently, and it's egregious. However, I did live in NYC with him as the mayor; he did a great job in improving the city and was a fairly energetic and pugnacious character. If only the core of the conservative positions on social issues were there. It follows not that I harbor disdain for Rudy or anything like that, but I think we need a much stronger, all around conservative to lead the GOP and the country. I find Huckabee interesting, but doubt he has a chance.

173 Praetyre  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:55:41pm

To be honest, I can't see the differences between social conservatives and liberals. They both want the government/godvernment in our lives more, but one of them believes in moral absolutes. Many of them couldn't care less about small government or the free market. They are to Republicans what the Sharpton/Jackson/Farrakhan crowd is to Democrats.

Liberalism and conservatism, in my opinion, is about ethical relativism vs ethical absolutes, collective vs personal responsibility and big government vs small government. Its not about war, gays, or whether you believe in God, it's about whether you think individualism is fundamentally bad or good, really. There are atheist and agnostic conservatives (Charles) and religious liberals (Dhimmi Cartah). There are gay conservatives (GayPatriot) and homophobic liberals (John Edwards). There are also anti war conservatives (Ron Paul) and pro war liberals (to an extent, Hillary Clinton).

My best advice to the socons is to vote for the Constitution Party or move to Iran, where moral absolutes and the will of God are honoured, apparently.


Rudy Giuliani may have some positions I object to (gun control), but so does Fred. Both men seem the best shot to win the GOP 08 against Hillary, and in this moment, well, beggars can't be choosers, to put it very frankly.

174 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:55:49pm

re: #172 Yank in the EU

Good post Yank. Glad to see you! How are ya?

175 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:56:41pm

re: #58 Ginn

re: #39 Carol Herman

#39 Carol Herman 10/20/07 1:01:17 pm reply quote report 0
re: #12 Ginn

re: #9 Carol Herman

This is where the Independents.. and more and more are becoming Independent voters... come in..

Ah, but how will they vote?

Yes, well, I'm an Independent. Independents are independent for a variety of reasons.

We used to by called Swing voters, didn't we?

Ginn,

It means you're not aligning yourself with either of the two main parties.

Lots more people are Independent, than actually belong to either party, these days.

In other words? There's about a 35% chance that someone really identifies so hard with one brand, that they will just never switch.

Maybe, in beer. Maybe, in cigarettes.

But everything else is open for trade.

While I really believe the people in DC are in panic mode. They just saw, for instance, Reid's letter blowing up into a political disaster. (Where what they wanted to do was get Rush fired.)

Winston Churchill once said "There's nothing as exhilarating as being shot at, and the person with the gun, MISSES."

I think Rush has a very good reason, now, to feel exhilaration.

Coming up on December 8th? IMUS is supposed to come back. And, to a better radio station! New York's ABC. And, that's just another loss for C-BS to factor in. Because IMUS took advertisers with him.

By the way. Rush, as he gets more attention, gets advertisers to flock around his show. "Just buying time."

It's a business.

We, "independents" are not a business. We're just a vote. To be convinced out of us, one person at a time.

176 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:56:42pm

re: #173 Praetyre

To be honest, I can't see the differences between social conservatives and liberals. They both want the government/godvernment in our lives more, but one of them believes in moral absolutes. Many of them couldn't care less about small government or the free market. They are to Republicans what the Sharpton/Jackson/Farrakhan crowd is to Democrats

.

Now that there is just silly.

177 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:56:45pm

re: #171 mama winger

If you know lots of chinese dishwashers with $2300 burning a hole in their pocket, you're in!

178 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:57:01pm

re: #173 Praetyre

To be honest, I can't see the differences between social conservatives and liberals.

I can tell.

179 ornery elephant  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:57:27pm

A Question.

If Hillary Clinton is elected President, will she have served the least amount of time in Public Elected Office before becoming President than any other President? The only ones that come to mind are Kennedy and Eisenhower.

180 Texas Joel  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:57:35pm

re: #45 blacque jacques shellacque

Could be true. But so what?

I want someone who's going to stick mostly to conservative principles, such as unintrusive government, leaving our 2nd Amendment rights intact, and curbing government spending. The immigration laws of our country need to be enforced, as well. If he's not going to do any of those, what's the point of supporting the guy?

I don't think Rudy is a RINO. I think he is more federalist-minded than most.
Immigration is not a local issue. As mayor he hasn't the authority to deport people. It isn't a crime to be in the US without papers, it is a crime to cross the border illegally. All he can do, as mayor is detain at his own expense these undocumented people until the US sends them home. The US has no intention of sending even 10% of these people home per year. And there is no way he can prove in criminal court that the illegals in NYC crossed a US national border in NY state, especially when they are being trucked up from Texas. And Texas doesn't know who crossed their national border because only the feds keep those records. If we were to jail every illegal immigrant in the states while waiting for them to be deported we would have to treble the size of the prisons. Three times as many guards and guards's salaries, three times as many cells, three times as many prison sites, and three times the operating cost, not to mention the cost of actually plunking down buildings. We would have to have guest workers imported just to jail half of the illegals in this country.
Abortion, like murder, should be a state issue. Murder is wrong, but is the US going to overrule any state on when lifetaking is murder and when it is defense? No, we have at least 50 different standards for lawful killing. Rudy may personally believe that the US Catholic Conference is wrong, but he has said he would appoint justices more like Scalia than Kennedy or Souter-- justices that don't care what their own opinions are but leave the states free to decide police issues. I don't think there is any way to go from Roe v Wade to Abortion is illegal in 50 states in one fell swoop. I think the quickest way to reduce abortions is through state action.
Remember when there used to be liberal republicans who favored liberal issues but only at the state level? [I don't count that idiot from Rhode Island, he was a true RiNO.]
When it comes to the 2d ammendment Rudy is not perfect, but he would at least be beholdin to the GOP which is generally pro 2d ammendment. That is much much better than having another Clinton, another Reno, and another four years of Democrat government in both branches.
Sure if you don't like Rudy in primaries, support the guy you do, but remember in the general election it will be either more Wacos and more New Orleans-like confiscations or it will be a Republican.

181 Opinionated  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:58:20pm

re: #157 blacque jacques shellacque

he's for local laws on gun control, as it should be.

Local laws to restrict a Constitutional right. Nice.

Back him if you will; my position however, hasn't changed.

The Supreme Court has never decided that the 2nd Amendment has been incorporated. Therefore, local gun laws don't fall within the 2nd.

That may change if the Court decides to hear Parker.

182 Yank in the EU  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:59:02pm

re: #174 mama winger

re: #172 Yank in the EU

Good post Yank. Glad to see you! How are ya?

Hey mama ;)

Doing alright. Pops might fly me in for Thanksgiving and looking forward to that. It's Saturday night I am just happy to have some extra hours to work! How about you? I hope all is well with you.

183 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:59:20pm

re: #179 ornery elephant

A Question.

If Hillary Clinton is elected President, will she have served the least amount of time in Public Elected Office before becoming President than any other President? The only ones that come to mind are Kennedy and Eisenhower.

Washington and Grant were never elected, I believe, before they served.

Lincoln was only a one or two term congressman.

184 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 1:59:42pm

re: #160 NY Nana

Hill's Cash Eyed As Chinese-Laundered

October 20, 2007 -- Hillary Clinton's campaign has been raising huge piles of money in Chinatown, but some of it has come from donors who can't be located or who were improperly repaid for their contributions, according to The Post and other reports.
A search of Chinatown donors yesterday by The Post found several bogus addresses and some contributions that raised eyebrows.

Shin K. Cheng is listed twice in federal [U.N.]records for giving $1,000 donations to Clinton's campaign on April 17.

But the address recorded on campaign reports is a clinic for sexually transmitted diseases, hemorrhoids and skin disease.

No one at the address knew of a Shin K. Cheng.

Another donation came from a Shih Kan Chang on Canal Street [in downtown Beijing]. But the address listed is a shop that sells knock-off watches and other pirated goods. The sales clerk there did not know the donor.

Hsiao Yen Wang, a cook in Chinatown, is listed as giving Clinton $1,000 on April 13. Contacted yesterday, she told The Post she had written a check.

But it was on behalf of a man named David Guo, president of the Fujian American Cuisine Council, and Wang told The Post that Guo had repaid her for the $1,000 contribution.

Such "straw donations" are strictly prohibited by federal law.

In addition, yesterday's search by The Post also turned up several $1,000 donations from Chinatown that were made by cooks, dishwashers, a cashier and a college student.

The findings closely match a report yesterday by the Los Angeles Times that found a huge number of Chinatown donations from donors listing bogus addresses or in amounts unlikely, given the donor's occupation.

The Times examined 150 donors, one-third of whose addresses could not be found. As with the Post search, most of the donors are not registered to vote.

In April, for instance, the Clinton campaign raised $380,000 from a single fund-raiser in Chinatown, the Times said. By comparison, Sen. John Kerry raised $24,000 in Chinatown during his entire campaign.

The Clinton campaign dismissed the L.A. Times story as derogatory to Chinese-Americans.

"We do not ethnically profile donors," growled Howard Wolfson. "Asian-Americans in Chinatown and Flushing have has the same right to contribute as every other American[foreign group that is aligned with my desire to see America fall]."

Campaign officials said they're always reviewing contributions to ensure compliance with federal [U.N.] rules, and, indeed, had found problems with some donations, though not necessarily the ones raised by the Times and The Post.

Oh, how I hope this will not go away!

/Fixed the article.

185 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:00:28pm

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

You know today I am perplexed, it is the first time I find myself so much at odds with my fellow lizards.

I disagree with Charlie Rangel on many issues, but my experience with him is that he is a stand up guy who speaks his mind and a patriot.

This is a guy who earned the Bronze Star in Korea, took his GI Bill benefits and went to college and earned a law degree. A guy who pulled himself up by the bootstraps.

When Chavez (Venezuela) attacked our President in the UN he is the one Congressman who stood up in the House and condemned him.

He has a different position than I do in many areas, but I believe he is one of the good guys.

I think he is a honorable opponent, an opponent, but he wont knife you in the back. He will come straight t you and you know where he stands.

186 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:00:36pm

re: #175 Carol Herman

I've been registered independent since 1972, before independent was cool. I never could stomach any party enough to register with them. Or maybe it's a Groucho Marx thing... wouldn't want to be a member of any party that would let me in.

187 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:01:24pm

re: #170 mama winger
Please elaborate.

188 blue sky  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:01:55pm

Rudy did a great thing when he refused to accept a $10 million dollar check from Saudi prince Alwaleed who said that America brought the attack upon itself. He certainly showed more leadership than Ray Nagin did during a catastrophe. But RINO Rudy believes in the socialist view that government knows best and we need to be protected from ourselves. That's why he supports national gun registration and trigger locks and believes the Brady bill didn't go far enough.

Rudy thinks the "United States Congress needs to pass uniform licensing for everyone carrying a gun" and supports a federal law that bans all assault weapons because he wants to curtail "the indiscriminate proliferation of guns across the nation." Yet he has alternatively said that states and cities should be allowed to make gun control decisions locally and says he supports and "understands" the Second Amendment. I don't think he does. National gun registration is exactly what Hitler introduced in Germany before collecting all the guns. Our constitutional rights are not federal rights nor state's rights, they are INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. The Second Amendment reinforces our right to protect ourselves from attack against our liberties WHEREVER IT MAY COME (particularly from a government that becomes master rather than servant.)

Individualism and individual liberty and freedom used to be defining characteristics of the USA. Our government was created by us to preserve liberty and serve the people. Not the other way around. Be very careful who you believe will truly defend and enforce ALL of your rights. Be master not slave.

189 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:02:09pm

re: #160 NY Nana

We all know this is clinton fraud. But they will trot out the liars and apologists who say, "they deserve to contribute like everyone else," and "don't dishoner dishwashers," blah, blah, blah.

At a minimum, these folks should be made to explain why they did not buy health insurance.

190 Live4Truth  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:02:23pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

Thoroughly inappropriate, KT. A crude and degrading insult to all Roman Catholics, who consider communion most holy. (and no, I'm not RC).

191 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:02:25pm

re: #182 Yank in the EU

re: #174 mama winger

re: #172 Yank in the EU

Good post Yank. Glad to see you! How are ya?

Hey mama ;)

Doing alright. Pops might fly me in for Thanksgiving and looking forward to that. It's Saturday night I am just happy to have some extra hours to work! How about you? I hope all is well with you.

Home for Thanksgiving ? That sounds nice, Yank.

We're all good here - Little Winger is conning his way thru school - all A's again without so much as trying. The weather is nice today. No snow yet and it's nearly November - I'm a happy camper :)

192 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:02:28pm

re: #181 Opinionated

re: #157 blacque jacques shellacque


he's for local laws on gun control, as it should be.

Local laws to restrict a Constitutional right. Nice.

Back him if you will; my position however, hasn't changed.


The Supreme Court has never decided that the 2nd Amendment has been incorporated. Therefore, local gun laws don't fall within the 2nd.

That may change if the Court decides to hear Parker.

What does that mean, the Second hasn't been incorporated? I'm not familiar with that legal terminology... Also, what is Parker?

193 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:04:34pm

re: #187 shanec99

re: #170 mama winger
Please elaborate.

LOL! Sure !

Back when he first tossed his hat into the ring, I started joking here on LGF that he was the anti-christ. Comes out of nowhere - muslim background - everybody loves him and no one knows a damn thing about him - and he was going to save us all. Kind of a mesmerizing quality about him.

Ergo. :)

194 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:04:40pm

re: #188 blue sky

Rudy was absolutely brilliant.

195 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:06:17pm

re: #193 mama winger
hmmm...
well... not convinced, but I see that you are kidding. lol

196 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:06:27pm

re: #63 DeafDog

I don't "do" futures.

If Hillary wins, however, it means the republicans do a GIANT MISTAKE when they get together to nominate their candidate.

Again, shouldn't the republcans learn from what they did when they picked John Dewey in 1948? (He had already lost to FDR in 1944. When FDR was too sick to campaign!)

By the way, the press won't be attacking Guiliani, the way they went after Bush!

Bush came in crippled. 2000 was a crippling event. That came about because Karl Rove, and the Bush Family knew how to manipulate the primaries.

Today?

You're gonna have states holding their primaries under their Christmas Tree!

The old way? Seems to be giving way to a "new way." At least for 2008.

While 2006 ... which was supposed to be a BOOST to the Bonkeys ... is turning into a disaster "ride" for them.

Part of Harry Reid's scheme? He knew that the Bonkeys have only 12 seats up for grabs in 2008. While the GOP has to defend (or re-elect) about two dozen senators. (Twice the amount.) Including one of them being Wide Stance Larry.

A great candidate will capture the seats of those in the party that has the COATTAILS.

This may be Hillary's greater weakness? Dunno.

I just don't foretell the future. No oji board for me. No Tarrot cards. Gypsies are fakers.

197 ornery elephant  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:07:17pm

re: #185 shanec99

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

You know today I am perplexed, it is the first time I find myself so much at odds with my fellow lizards.

I disagree with Charlie Rangel on many issues, but my experience with him is that he is a stand up guy who speaks his mind and a patriot.

This is a guy who earned the Bronze Star in Korea, took his GI Bill benefits and went to college and earned a law degree. A guy who pulled himself up by the bootstraps.

When Chavez (Venezuela) attacked our President in the UN he is the one Congressman who stood up in the House and condemned him.

He has a different position than I do in many areas, but I believe he is one of the good guys.

I think he is a honorable opponent, an opponent, but he wont knife you in the back. He will come straight t you and you know where he stands.

Well, I certainly don't mind a Democrat that is straight forward, but Rangel is consistently WRONG in my view. Here's just a taste of his "tact" in politics:

Top House Democrat Charles Rangel complained on Monday that the Bush administration's decision to concoct a "fraudulent" war in Iraq was as bad as "the Holocaust."

"It's the biggest fraud ever committed on the people of this country," Rangel told WWRL Radio's Steve Malzberg and Karen Hunter. "This is just as bad as six million Jews being killed. The whole world knew it and they were quiet about it, because it wasn't their ox that was being gored.

Link...

198 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:07:23pm

re: #188 blue sky

Who needs to register guns when you can register the bullets themselves...

199 blue sky  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:07:32pm

re: #194 shanec99

Are you a New Yorker?

201 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:07:39pm

re: #184 Oh no...Sand People!

Why couldn't you have written it in the first place? Excellent.

202 Yank in the EU  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:07:56pm

re: #191 mama winger

Great to hear. He's probably what I call among students a 'charmer'. That is, a natural gift for presentation. The system in Belgium is quite different, though, as it is mostly oral exams. Well, I'm getting back to work. Have a nice night!

203 kcladderman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:08:51pm

re: #190 Live4Truth

He seems to get a shot in on a regular basis.

204 Yankee Division Son  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:08:53pm
“Isn’t it better that I tell you what I really believe instead of changing all my positions?”... “I believe trust is more important than 100 percent agreement.”

This is excactly why I like Rudy, and why he's winning my vote (thusfar). I don't agree with him on every issue, much like I feel about GW, but telling me the truth is far more important than pandering.

I could never vote for a politician whom I belive is lying to me. When Hillary speaks, all I can think of is how when Bil spoke, I knew I couldn't belive 50-70% of what he said.

205 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:09:17pm

re: #202 Yank in the EU

He's probably what I call among students a 'charmer'. That is, a natural gift for presentation.

Oh he's a charmer alright. Or as we prefer to call him , a low down conniving scamming con-artist.

But charmer sounds nicer :)

206 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:09:53pm

re: #189 DeafDog

re: #160 NY Nana

We all know this is clinton fraud. But they will trot out the liars and apologists who say, "they deserve to contribute like everyone else," and "don't dishoner dishwashers," blah, blah, blah.

At a minimum, these folks should be made to explain why they did not buy health insurance.

Wow! All true..and re health insurance for kids issue? A straw man...Presidnet Bush showed a lot of balls in this case.

207 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:09:56pm

re: #201 NY Nana

I thought I was on to something there. Glad you agreed.

208 FrogMarch  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:10:16pm
209 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:11:16pm

re: #199 blue sky
Yep

210 blue sky  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:12:55pm

re: #198 Oh no...Sand People!

They have a lot of work to do before that happens. In the meantime, pass the lead and stoke the fire.

211 opinionated  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:13:13pm

re: #192 Pro-Bush Canuck

The Bill of Rights are directed at actions of the Federal Government. Over the years of the Republic, Amendments and decisions of the Court have held that specific Amendments dealing with issues such as the Freedom of Religion, Speech, Fourth Amendments rights, etc, are also applicable to local and State Government.

That's not true to date about the 2nd.

The Parker decision is a recent Wash DC Appellate Court decision that held that individual DC residents have a Constitutional right to hand guns at home.

Giuliani has cited this decision- as have legal scholars among them prominent Liberals like Lawrence Tribe- in expressing an opinion that the 2nd deserves to be understood as being incorporated.

212 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:13:13pm

re: #65 Spiny Norman

Roberts and Alito "may" turn out to be second-raters.

Because it's early, they seem to have picked a calendar where they're not tackling "big issues."

Let alone, Roberts, has to deal with Anthony Kennedy! Did you know Kennedy thought he'd be named chief?

Have you ever been in an executive suite, where a "holdover" on the Board, keeps looking to stab the newcomer in the back?

So far, Roberts' court is as divided as Rehnquist's.

And, courts that keep splitting the decisions to "close calls" are not producing laws as much as chopped liver.

Okay. And, let's say Bush gets another shot at naming a justice?

You see peace?

Yeah. The guy he just picked for AG is sailing through.

But 2008 as it shapes up politically, won't be all that friendly to Bush if he isn't paying attention. Should Ruth Bader Ginsberg, or Stevens, need replacing while Bush is still president, what makes you think Bush could even handle a congressional fight?

213 DeafDog  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:13:24pm

re: #196 Carol Herman

Maybe. I say the coat-tails are all about Iraq. If the situation in Iraq is continuing to improve, it'll be a republican landslide. If they take a turn for the worse, it'll be a landslide for the Dems. If they muddle along as today - probably a slight dem advantage Rudy might pull off an upset for President, but the congress will be solidly dem.

214 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:13:32pm

re: #190 Live4Truth

I respect people of all faiths But I won't refer to Mohammed as The Prophet (PBUH), His Holiness The Pope (SPQR), and I will call them crackers. I will respect religious people but I won't worship their holy cows.

215 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:13:33pm

re: #209 shanec99

I kinda like New Yawk accents (there are many flavors, as you would well know).

That's prolly cuz I lived in Boston for 4 years and got way tired of people telling me where to "pahk tha cah".

216 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:13:39pm

re: #197 ornery elephant

Charlie is wrong here.

This coming from an Iraq Vet.

217 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:14:29pm

Here is Rudy's speech; judge it for yourself.

[Link: www.joinrudy2008.com...]

218 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:14:52pm

A quality website aimed at exposing Hillary's campaign contributions fraud.

Hillcap:
Hillary Clinton Accountability Project.

219 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:16:37pm

re: #211 opinionated

When the Bill of Rights was drafted did the states (or municipalities) then have the power to enforce laws which overrode those ennumerated rights?

As a legal naif, I find this somewhat mystifying. Either the right exists, or it doesn't. How can a local government suppress a right that the feds cannot?

220 ornery elephant  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:16:44pm

?re: #217 Salamantis

Hey Sal!

Nice comment over at CQ today.

221 FrogMarch  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:17:05pm
222 RememberSekhmet?  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:17:52pm

Let's face it, folks, 9-11 changed everything. Everything.

Everybody has had to re-order their priorities, on both sides of the aisle. Some have realigned sanely, others not. We have seen so much venom from the Left, mostly because they have chosen to deny the need for a realignment of priorities.

And right now, the priority is to win the War on Terror. The priority is to present a united front. If the GOP wins in 2008, think what that is likely to mean. Hell, think what it could have meant had the GOP won in 2006.

As nutz as George Soros is, he didn't get that rich being a fool. If all those millions can't produce a win, he will eventually stop investing them. If after all the groundwork she laid, Hildabitch doesn't win, she is not so likely to get a second shot in '12. Where will that Leftist infrastructure go, seeing as it has been less about a rebuilding and redefinition of liberalism than front groups for her Presidential campaign?

Maybe this will leave the Left side of the aisle a little more serious about the War, and a host of other priorities.

223 blue sky  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:18:19pm

re: #209 shanec99

I'm sorry for the hell you had to experience firsthand.

224 R.A.D. Dad  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:18:22pm

The whole thread, and almost every other thread about Rudy, has people coming off with a sense of inevitability. It's a given, Rudy is it, and it's a given if you don't like Rudy and don't vote Rudy the devil herself will get elected and seek to destroy this whole country.

The press may not "like" Rudy, but they've been portraying him as "THE" republican candidate for months now, even hinting at it before anyone officially declared. The don't have to sing his praises directly to be giving a hand in positioning him as "THE" candidate for the republican party. Perhaps part of my problem with my perception of how he's been anointed by the media is that I have virtually shut out a great deal of the blatantly left wing media, CBS, NBC, ABC and the NYT. So the sources that I do hear tend to be more centrist, such as FOX NEWS, and of course then there's been the constant drum beat on the blogs such as Hot Air, LGF and so on.

I really think it's sad that so many think that Rudy is the best we can do. Moreover it is sad that some here seem to treat him as some sort of savior. And attacking those of us who haven't jumped on the bandwagon and want people to stop acting like tomorrows the general election and TODAY all we have is Rudy or Billary to choose from is wrong. I think many of you have gotten yourselves so worked up with hatred and fear of radical Islam that you are BLINDED to all the other things that are bringing this nation down. And if you think that Billary would sit idly by and go down in history as the person who allowed Islam to roll over us and destroy this nation you've got another thing coming, she is a pure political animal and that wouldn't be good for her, and really it's all about her in her mind.

You like to try and isolate and vilify those who aren't happy about this death march of the Republican party towards the left by focusing on abortion and trying to smear us all as religious kooks. Thing is abortion ISN'T the only problem with Rudy. His RECORD shows he doesn't appoint conservative judges, his RECORD shows he doesn't respect the Second Amendment, his RECORD shows he's not a proponent of smaller government, his RECORD (and recent campaigning) shows he ISN'T tough in illegal immigration. Then of course there are the social issues, and he's a failure on nearly every one of those as well. But yes, he did clean up NYC's crime problem, and yes he talks a fairly tough line on the problem of terrorism, but he's still a little to wishy washy on Islam as a whole and still sounds far too much like George W. Bush on terrorism. I'm not entirely convinced he will be a good friend of Israel...but that's just a gut feeling so that point is not anything.

His promises about appointing conservative judges are worth about as much as any campaign promise from a politician, and really when his promises aren't backed up with his record, they sound rather empty...like thinly veiled pandering in hopes of winning some of the social conservatives. He also sounds like he's swallowed the Global Warming pill to a certain extent, and he's definitely a bit of a globalist. Will he be tough on China? You want to talk a real threat, there's China, and I fear Rudy will follow in Bush's footsteps on China, or worse.

We should do better than Rudy, we could do better, but the power brokers will make sure we don't. Even here at LGF the talk is almost always about Rudy. (in my best Jan Brady voice) Rudy Rudy Rudy!

So many CLAIM that they are more conservative and then there's the BUT and they go on to talk up Rudy. How about spending some time getting the buzz out about some of the others, the Hunters, Tancredo's, Huckabes? They need a grass roots push, but the grass roots has been to busy playing the pragmatism card and acting as if the primaries are already over.

225 steve  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:18:46pm

re: #158 Thanos

But if you look at his record he consistently does what he says he will. He doesn't mince words -- if he were duplicitous he would not have appeared in front of conservatives and given his views straight up.

I know folks feel burned by Bush, however don't tar Rudy with Bush disillusionment friend.

thanos, I understand what you are saying but:

1. I do not feel burned by Bush. Never really trusted him 100% in the first place. But he was the lesser of the two evils out there.

2. I cannot really explain why I do not trust Rudi but I have these bells and whistles go off in my head when I here people say “I believe trust is more important than 100 percent agreement.”

Let me see if I can explain this feeling that I get. Please forgive my rambling.
My former neighbor was a nice young man (in his mid 20"s) always dealt honestly with me did what he said (returned tools or lawn mower etc.) But one day he slipped and feel in his bathtub. The fire department medics showed up. An ambulance came, the fire department left and the ambulance left. About ten minutes after they all left I get a call from my brother who was one of the firemen there. Seems that their response kit is missing. I go next door and ask the guys wife about it. (A rather large suit case that is is bright orange). She say that she does not remember seeing it but will look in the house for it. House is 987 sq feet. About ten minutes later she comes to the door holding it and says "is this it?" I say yes take the kit hot foot it to the fire department with it and make them very happy. Before I get home my brother calls and asks if I had opened up the case. Seems that their small case of controlled meds is missing. The fire department call the neighbor and his wife has the gall to say that they did not open the case and I was the last one to have it. Needless to say the Sheriff shows up spends almost two hours in their house and come out with the 'meds' bag.
She says to me that she thought it was her husbands tool kit and he tells me that he does not have an addiction to drugs, But "IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU BELIEVE ME".

This is how I feel about Rudi!

226 Live4Truth  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:18:52pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

re: #190 Live4Truth

I respect people of all faiths But I won't refer to Mohammed as The Prophet (PBUH), His Holiness The Pope (SPQR), and I will call them crackers. I will respect religious people but I won't worship their holy cows.

KT, you're comparing apples to oranges. The issue isn't that you should revere it, but rather that you shouldn't intentionally insult it. There are other ways you could have made the point, without the insult.

227 sandspur  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:18:58pm

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?

If it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul (shiver, God Forbid!), it'll be Hillary 'cause the Paulians won't be able to hijack actual voting like they do online voting.
/thinking of this makes me queasy

228 Opinionated  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:19:08pm

re: #219 Pro-Bush Canuck

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

229 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:19:28pm

re: #218

A good video doing the same thing:

230 blue sky  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:20:41pm

re: #222 RememberSekhmet?

Realignment of priorities and a united front. So true.

231 ornery elephant  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:20:52pm

re: #222 RememberSekhmet?

Let's face it, folks, 9-11 changed everything. Everything.

Everybody has had to re-order their priorities, on both sides of the aisle. Some have realigned sanely, others not. We have seen so much venom from the Left, mostly because they have chosen to deny the need for a realignment of priorities.

And right now, the priority is to win the War on Terror. The priority is to present a united front. If the GOP wins in 2008, think what that is likely to mean. Hell, think what it could have meant had the GOP won in 2006.

That, my friend, is one HELLUVA good post! One of the best I've seen in months. Thank you.
As nutz as George Soros is, he didn't get that rich being a fool. If all those millions can't produce a win, he will eventually stop investing them. If after all the groundwork she laid, Hildabitch doesn't win, she is not so likely to get a second shot in '12. Where will that Leftist infrastructure go, seeing as it has been less about a rebuilding and redefinition of liberalism than front groups for her Presidential campaign?

Maybe this will leave the Left side of the aisle a little more serious about the War, and a host of other priorities.

232 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:22:22pm

re: #229 Salamantis

re: #218

A good video doing the same thing:

[Link: video.google.com...]

I am stunned that Google allows it to stay, but I guess if they did that then they wouldn't be able to even pretend to deny being 'objective'.

233 Promethea  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:22:31pm

re: #130 shanec99

re: #125 galloping granny

Granny, Obama has more experience than Hillary, he served in the Illinois legislature and is now a US Senator.

Hillary's experience, Rose law firm and the US Senate.

Who is more qualified in Government?

Both I believe are unsuited, but Obama is less unsuited.

Regarding the matter of his faith... he says he is Christian, who am I to judge?

Obama's Christianity is of a strange "black power" type of Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, Obama is a racist.

234 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:23:32pm

re: #228 Opinionated

Thanks!

235 Render  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:24:24pm

I don't like what Charlie Rangel says, the majority of the time. I certainly don't agree with much of what he stands for.

But Charlie Rangel walked out of the same frozen hell at Chosin that my father did.

Everything after that is easy.

He can say whatever he wants. I may not like it, or agree with it, but the man has earned the right. In spades.

KOTO
RI,
R

236 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:24:25pm

re: #74 galloping granny

Hello.

Are you confusing commercials with debate?

Hillary wants to project confidence. So, you're saying she's already calling herself a winner. Woody Allen says just showing up is 80% of the job. I'll go with Woody Allen.

I also know in political contests, one person wins. And, the other loses. When Dewey lost, in 1948, Harry Truman, all smiles, held up the newspaper with that silly headline on it.

And, ya know what? No matter how much you cannot understand "how" people could vote for her; just the same, Hillary will do better than ZERO votes! Millions more than that! Including people who don't support the war Bush got into. And, don't support Bush at all. And, who happen to hate most politicians. In fact? She could win. This depends on the GOP. Yup. Capable of picking John Dewey. (You thought Harry Truman was popular? Nah.)

It's a contest. Not a mud bath.

And, it doesn't matter what sides individuals who vote, join. Many of us vote without even contributing a dime to a candidate.

And, I know I'm very comfortable with Guiliani. Want my label? I'm an Independent. Though I might be registered as a republican. This way, I get primary ballots.

Now, I keep asking myself, what would I do if Guiliani weren't nominated? Just automatically vote for any republican? Nope. I don't think so. And, California's primary date has been boosted up to a date early in March, 2008, I think. You bet! People are paying attention. And, lots of people never want to see a "primary win" based on the views of voters in Iowa and New Hampshire!

Politics. An American sport where people in other countries drool over our rights to vote.

237 ornery elephant  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:24:54pm

re: #222 RememberSekhmet?

Well, i'm not sure what happened to my #231 post but I WAS trying to tell you that was a great comment ! Thanks for sharing that.

238 Promethea  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:25:05pm

#233 re my (Promethea) post . . .

I know that "racist" is an all-purpose insult these days, but I mean "racist" in the old sense.

When Obama blamed Bush for the drowning of the black section of New Orleans, I knew that Obama was not fit to be President.

239 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:25:57pm

re: #223 blue sky
I am not sorry about what I did over there, and given the chance I would go back. It was good and honorable, and more than 21 years ago I promised to protect our constitution against enemies foreign and domestic.

There are enemies over there, and I was doing what I promised to do.

240 Praetyre  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:26:33pm

Re #176 Mama Winger;

Perhaps I should have phrased it better. I don't see the difference between social conservatives and liberals in their overall attitude to government coercion, except that liberals want coercion against the rich and some socons (not all, it's wrong to generalize when it comes to politics) want coercion against people they don't like for the childreeen, which is pretty much the same thing Hillary is doing (she's courting the pro video game censorship crowd and soccer moms are fairly evenly divided in politics).

There are some socons who don't care that much about the economy, such as some members of the Australian/New Zealand Exclusive Brethren and some who actually align themselves with fiscal liberals or anti war liberals (the late, Venerable Karol Wojytla comes to mind, as do many, many Catholic figures). I apologise for stereotyping your deeply held beliefs in that way, but to me it is hypocritical to support getting the government out of our business lives and yet to support using government coercion in order to enforce irrational codes with little grounding in logic or reality, such as anti nudity codes.

I am of course a proud neolibertarian and quite an ideologue, attaining the status of resident right winger on another forum. I believe that everything should be allowed if it isn't coercing others (the Wiccan rede of "Do as thou will, as long as it harm none", though coming from a wacky and strange religion, is valid for libertarians). I am not shy about asserting my beliefs, but I respect yours and admire you for having the courage to assert them in an environment which does not welcome them.

#200;
It's a crying shame most college adults are liberal nuts, Pat Robertson-esque types or isolationist nuts. Probably from the fact the liberal leftist anti west dhimmi scum run academia.

241 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:28:20pm

re: #100 DeafDog

Speaking of Rudy's health - that raises a very important point
regarding his potential presidential nomination. Should Rudy win, he
might be Very, Very well served to have a social conservative balancing
the ticket. Brownback comes to mind, as he also provides good
geographic balance, but a west coaster (Oregonian, I think) would be
even better.

Brownback is quitting the race. And, is NOT throwing his support to Rudy. I'll bet ya, Brownback is NOT picked! Not for Rudy's veep slot. And, not for a cabinet chair, either.

On the other hand, McCain, whom Rudy really, really likes, would probably not go into the veep slot, either. Though it does balance "east and west." Because? The senate needs all its republican GOP'ers. A republican president, with a democratic senate, needs to find ways to cut through the thicket, to have a successful presidency. Bodies count.

I think the front-runner picks someone NOT in the senate.

Dunno who. But as I said, all fortune-tellers are gypsies. And, all gypsies are fakers.

242 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:28:31pm

re: #92 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Here is an excellent article for parents of teen-aged girls...I do not qualify, as only daughter is 41, and the 2 little granddaughters are 5 and 7, but too fast they will be in their teens : Raising your teenage daughter: Don't leave it to popular culture.

Shrillary's 'It takes a village' makes me puke.

If I can find a video of Rudy's speech I will post it. No luck so far.

243 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:28:45pm

re: #233 Promethea
I cannot look into the man's heart to tell how honest he is about his faith. I can say that he seems to be a decent fellow, not involved in scandals, married to one wife, raising his kids.

Seems like one of the good guys.

I just disagree with his politics.

244 blue sky  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:30:25pm

re: #239 shanec99

I missed something. Where were you?
(I was talking about 9/11 and the aftermath in NYC.)

245 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:31:27pm

re: #240 Praetyre

You need to be careful about conflating groups with sweeping generalizations (which you cleared up to some extent in that last post).

Some people here get in hot water by trying to conflate Christians with Muslims (all religion is equally bad!).

Better to tread lightly. There are many libertarians, and many conservatives. There are some social conservatives, too.

What we don't have as a rule are actual leftists. Saying that social conservatives are indistinguishable from leftists is guaranteed to cause problems, regardless of what you really meant.

246 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:31:50pm

re: #235 Render

Agree with you bro, I won't vote for him, but he is one of the guys who stood up against communists. He never ran. He is a hero with a Bronze Star.

He is wrong about the Iraq War though, but he can talk as much as he likes.

247 Promethea  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:32:00pm

re: #179 ornery elephant

A Question.

If Hillary Clinton is elected President, will she have served the least amount of time in Public Elected Office before becoming President than any other President? The only ones that come to mind are Kennedy and Eisenhower.

Yes, but Eisenhower planned and executed the Normandy Invasion, the greatest invasion in all of history. That should have counted for something.

248 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:32:44pm

re: #215 Pro-Bush Canuck

Hey, there...I am from Bahstahn originally, but have lived in NY most of my life. I am an 'arrogant New Yawka', and damned proud of it!

I can understand every word Rudy says, but Teddy Boy? I need a translator.

249 Catttt  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:33:31pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

God loves Rudy.

Of course. Deus caritas est. :)

250 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:33:31pm

re: #244 blue sky

On 9/11 I was stationed in Inglside, Texas aboard a Mine Sweeper.

251 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:34:05pm

re: #226 Live4Truth

How about Christ-o-cookies? Religion biscuits?

252 Live4Truth  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:34:07pm

re: #241 Carol Herman

re: #100 DeafDog

Speaking of Rudy's health - that raises a very important point
regarding his potential presidential nomination. Should Rudy win, he
might be Very, Very well served to have a social conservative balancing the ticket. Brownback comes to mind, as he also provides good
geographic balance, but a west coaster (Oregonian, I think) would be
even better.

Brownback is quitting the race. And, is NOT throwing his support to Rudy. I'll bet ya, Brownback is NOT picked! Not for Rudy's veep slot. And, not for a cabinet chair, either.

How about Newt? The primary reason why he dropped out of the race, is that he couldn't spend the time and money on the campaign (there were other reasons too, but I think that was primary). But he could jump into the VP position pretty easily, and I do think he's presidential material.

253 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:35:09pm

re: #248 NY Nana

Heh.

I love Boston. Love the entire Eastern seaboard for that matter. Going to visit another Canuck ex-pat in Virginia (lucky guy married a US Navy lady) in a few weeks.

254 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:35:14pm

re: #249 Cattt

My latin stinks. Had to google that one.

255 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:36:26pm

re: #240 Praetyre

but to me it is hypocritical to support getting the government out of our business lives and yet to support using government coercion in order to enforce irrational codes with little grounding in logic or reality, such as anti nudity codes.

You are making giant leaps here. Let me see if I can help sort this out.

In the first place, I certainly have never said I was in favor of any kind of government coercion. I have lived within the world of social conservatives for literally my entire life, and I have to say I don't think I have heard it there either.

Many people have the idea that social conservatives are trying to 'force' people to follow their beliefs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

for want of a better example, let's take abortion. The position against abortion need not even be based on religious principles. In fact, I rarely use religion in my arguments. My case can be made strictly from a Constitutional point of view. No one person can deprive another person of life or property without due process. No one person can view another person as property to be disposed of at their pleasure. I think that is about as strict a Consitutional stance as one can get, and it has nothing to do with religion.


I'd say more, but my head is boggled.

256 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:37:35pm

re: #247 Promethea

And Kennedy was a hero, Navy LT who saved members of his crew after his boat sunk.

257 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:37:39pm

and anti -nudity ? ?

did I miss something here ?

Most of what people describe as social conservative is more aptly described as traditionalist.

258 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:38:38pm

re: #257 mama winger

No naked libertarians on my lawn, please.

259 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:39:04pm

re: #257 mama winger

Pants is fascism!

260 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:40:15pm

re: #259 Killgore Trout

re: #257 mama winger

Pants is fascism!

That's why I wear them !

I am proud to be a fascist neocon whackofundagelical.

261 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:40:26pm

re: #257 mama winger

lol

262 blue sky  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:41:11pm

re: #250 shanec99 Thank you.

263 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:42:17pm

re: #260 mama winger

Dungarees for Jesus!

264 Promethea  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:42:28pm

Apropos of various comments on this thread . . .

I think that many pro-gun advocates fail to understand the culture of many Americans in "blue" areas. Believe it or not, there are millions of us who have never seen a gun or learned to shoot. This is one of those culture divides that mark American society. I have a cousin who spent some time in Colorado and came back amazed that the people she ran into taught their children how to shoot. At that time, we were also amazed.

The internet--and LGF in particular--have given me more insight into the importance of the Second Amendment. I just thought I should mention the fact that millions of city types do not have the same pro-gun attitudes. I believe that Rudy is attractive to millions of those types since he is obviously conflicted about the subject.

I don't think one President can satisfy all voters on all subjects. For me, the big subjects of our era are the War on Terror and creeping Islamicization.

265 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:42:40pm

re: #262 blue sky

Proud to wear the uniform. You are welcome.

266 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:42:49pm

re: #242 NY Nana

re: #92 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Here is an excellent article for parents of teen-aged girls...I do not qualify, as only daughter is 41, and the 2 little granddaughters are 5 and 7, but too fast they will be in their teens : Raising your teenage daughter: Don't leave it to popular culture.

Shrillary's 'It takes a village' makes me puke.

If I can find a video of Rudy's speech I will post it. No luck so far.

Thank you Nana -- I'm going to bed now as it is late but I look forward to reading this tomorrow. I don't have a daughter either, but this topic is very interesting to me. As you may know, I am Modern Orthodox in Jerusalem and there are very few issues with teen sexuality among the Orthodox of all streams. Girls go to separate schools and are watched closely, and all their friends are still virgins and sex within marriage is the NORM, so no peer pressure problems. What is sad to me is hearing libs talk about this and acting as if they are enlightened for accepting that little girls should have sex. Hey, "urges" are normal, right? So the healthy thing to do is to ALWAYS GIVE IN TO THEM! Yeah. That's the sort of thing we get from liberals.

I'd definitely be interested in the Guiliani speech.

267 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:43:00pm

re: #263 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #260 mama winger

Dungarees for Jesus!

Hey - I think I had me some of them back in my Jesus-freak days.

268 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:43:11pm

re: #102 Thanos

Thanos, two years before Roe became law, Ronald Reagan signed safe abortions into law, in California. Making them LEGAL.

People fool themselves if they think a man, who spent his life in hollywood, was unaware of doctors. And, what they could do "when a star got in trouble."

At least "said star" was luckier than those that went into the back alleys.

Again, more surprising to me is the NUMBERS. I have no idea of this is true. Or not. But I just saw that for every ten pregnancies in the USA, 2 are aborted. That covers a lot of people choosing what they want.

Again, the old WHIG party adopted PROHIBITION! As I've said, they hated the incoming Germans. And, Irish. Incoming IMMIGRATION DESTINATIONS. So going back in the 1840's, there were political attempts to PROHIBIT LIQUOR! Guess what? The WHIGS, with Nativism, and anti-drink, they got to fold their tents like a cheap suitcase.

And, here I was always blaming the women, who got the right to vote in 1920. I was sure the women went after the liquor barrels with axes. Where a lot of good Prohibition did them! (Though it did make Joseph Kennedy an extremely wealthy man. Bootlegging. Not just banking!)

As to Roe being the LAW, it is!

As to politics being fractured these days? It is!

Bush's presidency? He vies with Jimmy Carter for last place.

And, ya know what? Jimmy Carter's performance ushered in Reagan's WIN.

(Did you know, in 1976, Reagan wanted the nomination? He wanted to take on Jimmy Carter, BEFORE Jimmy Carter got elected to the White House. "Geniuses," and I say this tongue-in-cheek, chose Gerald Ford. Why? Oh, he was a nice guy. Though he kept walking into the furniture. Heck, From his two-years in Nixon's remaining White House; Gerald Ford gave Chevy Chase a career opportunity you couldn't beat.)

As to "going to the right" when campaigning? Did you know that was Eisenhower's song-and-dance? Now, if you want to see where our government grew new pajamas for the White House; you just gotta love Ike.

269 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:44:17pm

re: #264 Promethea

I just thought I should mention the fact that millions of city types do not have the same pro-gun attitudes.

Cities are traditionally where the really serious trouble starts when a culture begins to fall apart.

Allow "city-folk" to drive your country at your peril.

270 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:44:28pm

re: #264 Promethea

Believe it or not, there are millions of us who have never seen a gun or learned to shoot.

Now that thar jus ain't right.


:)

271 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:47:14pm

re: #270 mama winger

And they actually admit it.

Do they understand our nations tradition regarding citizens using fire arms to gain independence and preserve their liberty?

272 Catttt  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:47:32pm

Naked? Did some one say naked? Did someone streak Mayor Giuliani's speech? Should I link to a naked Brad Pitt pic and scar all you men for life?

/

273 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:49:05pm

re: #272 Cattt
No but a pic of Britney's "scar" will cause me to weep.

274 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:49:33pm

re: #253 Pro-Bush Canuck

I am from Brighton and then Newton. What I love about Boston (not the drivers!) is that it is a compact city, and rich in tradition.

Daughter, son in law and almost 14 month old grandson are in the Berkshires on vacation. I have a feeling that my kids will take theirs and my daughters in law to ride on the Swan Boats...I was on them countless times, and we always took the kids when we were visiting my parents zt'l.

Each of my 3 grandkids was given a copy of Make Way for Ducklings when they came home from the hospital!

The politics are abominable...but there are so many places to go that are not all that far away.

I have so many wonderful memories, but am now a New Yorker..but am still hoping that the Red Sox are the winners! Red Sox rule!

I.hate.the.damned.Yankees.

Enjoy your visit.

275 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:49:43pm

re: #264 Promethea

Actually, most Americans don't know this, but Canada is a far more urbanized society overall than is the US. As Canadians left their traditional way of life for the major cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver) our country swung sharply to the Left. As a result our standard of living dropped precipitously relative to that of the US, our government grew to gargantuan proportions, and our military was almost completely gutted (after having been the third most powerful Navy in the world right after WWII).

In general one should avoid taking political cues from city-dwellers. The strange brew of interests they develop is counter-productive for the nation.

276 wanumba  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:49:50pm

The only GOP right now with the successful executive experience in complicated states - exactly the background required for ANY credible presidency are Giuliani and Jeb Bush.
Giuliani is making the effort to run. He's sharp, he's solid and he KNOWS THE LAW. Not like a corporate lawyer like Hillary "knows" the law, but CRIMINAL law. Different type of mentality altogether, tougher debate, tougher living, bringing criminals to justice.
Bet the Democrats think Giuliani's close to their worst nightmare - when he looks at the attorney generals and the federal prosecutors - what kind of person would Rudy want to see in those jobs? This is a guy who went after organized crime. Giuliani knows where to aim his arrows, direct his archers, when it comes to targets in criminal investigations. Must be chilling to the scandal-ridden Dems.
Don't know if Jeb will run - but he's got fantastic experience, too, in a difficult state (size, population mix, urban/rural, domestic/international etc etc.) The Left has been putting out the line that anyone Bush SHOULDN'T run - on a bizarro "anti-dynasty" excuse - which is just garbage talk to clear the field for the correct " dynasty" - the Clintons. The MSM is pumping out all the questionable concepts of "voter fatigue" against Jeb. Will he fall for the phony construct or will he ignore it and run hard and run to win? Don't know yet.

Not a single Dem candidate has executive experience - apart from Richardson, but he's nowhere right now and even though that governorship legitimately puts him head and shoulders above the gaggle of corporate lawyers that make up the Democrat field, NM isn't of the level of training that is gained in such "mini-nations" as California, Texas, Florida, even New York. Still, in a serious business as the US presidency, in time of war no less, it's pathetic that the Democrats are serious only about personal ambition, but not personal ability in managing. The presidency is supposed about leading the country, not having the country serve one's ego.

277 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:49:59pm

re: #270 mama winger

re: #264 Promethea

Believe it or not, there are millions of us who have never seen a gun or learned to shoot.

Now that thar jus ain't right.


:)

One of my best friends parents went to school in the day when an entire section of P.E. was devoted to marksmanship and shooting rifles.

...all I got was dodgeball, basketball, and bowling...and weightlifting occasionally...

278 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:51:47pm

re: #274 NY Nana

I lived in that residential project which is down by the JFK Library (UMass). Not the greatest area, but the rent was relatively cheap and I could drive to work on Summer St. in 25 minutes every morning.

279 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:52:04pm

re: #131 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

re: #100 DeafDog

I
think he will balance the ticket with a female VP candidate - probably
Condi Rice (even though she says she's going back to Stanford).

Aiy! IF he does that people with think his wife, Judi, is in control.

Nope. Not like Rudy to pick a female. But it's a good question.

The days where Nixon could pick Spiro Agnew are over! (He did this, because he didn't want insiders assassinating him.)

Then, along came the FBI, pushing facts up Bob Woodward's tuchis.

280 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:52:30pm

re: #277 Oh no...Sand People!

A damned shame. I went to boarding school in Jamiaca, and we had a rifle club. Shot 202 and 303 rifles.

281 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:52:39pm

re: #277 Oh no...Sand People!

.

..all I got was dodgeball, basketball, and bowling...and weightlifting occasionally...

I took archery. Yeah . Like that'll help.

282 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:52:51pm

re: #266 American Jewess In Jerusalem

I have friends in Israel..I am obviously not frum, but my friends are.

My email is blue if you want to contact me. I hope that the video will be available.

Layla tov!

283 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:54:07pm
284 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:55:14pm

re: #281 mama winger

re: #277 Oh no...Sand People!

.

..all I got was dodgeball, basketball, and bowling...and weightlifting occasionally...

I took archery. Yeah . Like that'll help.

Better than nothing!

285 steve  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:55:48pm

re: #277 Oh no...Sand People!

Some of my best memories is walking home from school with my friends as they supplied meat for their table.

286 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:56:35pm

re: #283 song_and_dance_man
Man you guys are beating me down.

I give up.

UNCLE.

287 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:57:09pm

re: #285 steve

re: #277 Oh no...Sand People!

Some of my best memories is walking home from school with my friends as they supplied meat for their table.

...good times.

288 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:57:20pm

re: #30 Ginn

re: #27 blacque jacques shellacque

“Isn’t it better that I tell you what I really believe instead of changing all my positions?” Giuliani told an audience of 2,000 at the Family Research Council’s Values Voters Summit at a Washington hotel. “I believe trust is more important than 100 percent agreement.”

Yes it is, but face it - the guy's a RINO.

Could be true. But so what?

Why were we willing to throw our arms around all the neocons that moved to the right?

289 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:57:32pm

re: #278 Pro-Bush Canuck

Yipes! I know the area, but have not actually been downtown in over 20 years.

We go to Sharon, to the cemetery, and then to Brookline, if we are staying overnight, but usually make it a one-day trip, as we are very near the CT border.

25 minute drive to work? Please don't tell me that you are a Toronto driver, who drove in Boston! Oh, the humanity!

290 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:57:32pm

re: #285 steve

What... road kill?

lol

Just kidding my friend. I could not resist it.

291 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:57:46pm

Reagan had been a Democrat and Flipped - was that good or not?

292 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:59:05pm

Why don't candidates come out earlier with the choice of thier running mate - I think that would strengthen every ticket.

293 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:59:18pm

re: #158 Thanos

But if you look at his record he consistently does what he says he will. He doesn't mince words -- if he were duplicitous he would not have appeared in front of conservatives and given his views straight up.

I know folks feel burned by Bush, however don't tar Rudy with Bush disillusionment friend.

Well said. In fact- it's a bit refreshing to have a politician not say what is politically expedient just in order to woo a few votes here and there. In an era known for political flip flops, a politician insisting he remain honest about his stances on issues should be welcomed, if not excepted.

Rudy may not be the perfect candidate, but no one ever will be. The goal here, however, should not be to fall on the sword of our political purity.

294 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:59:45pm

re: #291 DistantThunder

Remind them bro, and not all Dems are bad... Kennedy wasnt a bad guy. FDR was pretty good, and old Harry S understood America's role in the world.

295 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 2:59:55pm

re: #100 DeafDog

Speaking of Rudy's health - that raises a very important point regarding his potential presidential nomination. Should Rudy win, he might be Very, Very well served to have a social conservative balancing the ticket. Brownback comes to mind, as he also provides good geographic balance, but a west coaster (Oregonian, I think) would be even better.

What about a guy from Arkansas?

296 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:00:12pm

re: #289 NY Nana

Plus I forgot to mention that I have a branch office of my company in Rockland. I get down there fairly often. Last time was in July.

297 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:00:25pm

re: #137 Arkay

Maybe, it's time the abortion issue ENDS being divisive, instead?>>

By
utter and immediate abolition. The same way slavery (its moral
equivalent) ended being divisive. Nothing less is acceptable. 45
million dead children, remember. Always remember.

As for President Rudy? Never. He's an automatic nonstarter.

Sock puppets for aborters get nowhere in the GOP. For very, very good reason.

Roe IS the law.

And, to Strict Constructionists, it means what it says. The law is the law.

Don't confuse the slavery issue, which was about compromising what most people hated. To abortions. Which gets USED.

If it was UNPOPULAR, it would die on the vine.

Who'd want to do this?

Plus, add on that today's pregnant woman gets ultrasound's. And, amniocenteses' done. In order to discover if the fetus is healthy. Or not.

Besides, free choice is just that.

Someone's religious views?

Guess what?

The document that starts America's ball rolling says: WE THE PEOPLE. It does not say "the king grants." And, it does not set up a religious bastion. It's FOR the PEOPLE.

That a small minority of folk saw to it that the Supreme's could turn around a popular law ... is on par with thinking Americans don't want to own guns.

Those are the things people will vote for, as they vote against the uber-right.

By now the abortion song and dance has led to some strange partnerships. And, even stranger stuff oozing out of the senate; when confirmation hearings show up.

Anyone who wants to lead, ahead? Has to at least KNOW Bush fails to communicate!

Bush got all the "advantages" of being rich. And, being born into the political family that thinks its hot shit.

Meanwhile, Bush vies with Jimmy Carter for last place.

Keep screaming the religious argument. People don't hear you!

In today's world the UNAFFILIATED have walked. And, yes. They vote. You wanna name-call this?

Do you know what happened when you went on a tear and said you needed "a bullet proof senate with 60 GOP senators? HO. HO. HO. Santa Claus didn't come.

And, the republicans learned that it's not easy selling lots of people on their product. Not when it contains something people don't want.l

298 Thanos  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:00:40pm

re: #270 mama winger

re: #264 Promethea


Believe it or not, there are millions of us who have never seen a gun or learned to shoot.

Now that thar jus ain't right.


:)


I can agree with that :)

299 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:00:51pm

re: #294 shanec99

re: #291 DistantThunder

Remind them bro, and not all Dems are bad... Kennedy wasnt a bad guy. FDR was pretty good, and old Harry S understood America's role in the world.

That's Mrs. to you...lol...mother of 7 and budding sex therapist and don;t you forget it ! Have great day.

300 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:02:20pm

re: #299 DistantThunder

Good on you Ma'am, seven... wow... you are raising a Lizard Army.

Sorry about the slight. God be with you my sister.

301 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:02:31pm
302 steve  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:03:42pm

re: #290 shanec99

I was wondering who would be the first to come up with the humor.

Actually I can say that my kids have guns in their school. No they are not on security, they are in the house. Since my wife and I home school.
I am teaching my 7 year old daughter the proper fundementals of shooting. I am using an airsoft style pistol since I live in a subdivision. But on good weekends we will be out at the range and she will learn to shoot the real things, same as both of the boys.

303 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:03:52pm

re: #297 Carol Herman

re: #137 Arkay

Maybe, it's time the abortion issue ENDS being divisive, instead?>>

By
utter and immediate abolition. The same way slavery (its moral
equivalent) ended being divisive. Nothing less is acceptable. 45
million dead children, remember. Always remember.

As for President Rudy? Never. He's an automatic nonstarter.

Sock puppets for aborters get nowhere in the GOP. For very, very good reason.

Roe IS the law.

And, to Strict Constructionists, it means what it says. The law is the law.

Don't confuse the slavery issue, which was about compromising what most people hated. To abortions. Which gets USED.

If it was UNPOPULAR, it would die on the vine.

Who'd want to do this?

Plus, add on that today's pregnant woman gets ultrasound's. And, amniocenteses' done. In order to discover if the fetus is healthy. Or not.

Besides, free choice is just that.

Someone's religious views?

Guess what?

The document that starts America's ball rolling says: WE THE PEOPLE. It does not say "the king grants." And, it does not set up a religious bastion. It's FOR the PEOPLE.

That a small minority of folk saw to it that the Supreme's could turn around a popular law ... is on par with thinking Americans don't want to own guns.

Those are the things people will vote for, as they vote against the uber-right.

By now the abortion song and dance has led to some strange partnerships. And, even stranger stuff oozing out of the senate; when confirmation hearings show up.

Anyone who wants to lead, ahead? Has to at least KNOW Bush fails to communicate!

Bush got all the "advantages" of being rich. And, being born into the political family that thinks its hot shit.

Meanwhile, Bush vies with Jimmy Carter for last place.

Keep screaming the religious argument. People don't hear you!

In today's world the UNAFFILIATED have walked. And, yes. They vote. You wanna name-call this?

Do you know what happened when you went on a tear and said you needed "a bullet proof senate with 60 GOP senators? HO. HO. HO. Santa Claus didn't come.

And, the republicans learned that it's not easy selling lots of people on their product. Not when it contains something people don't want.l

I've worked actively in the pro-life movement as a pregnancy counselor at Birthright a national organization. i also worked for an OB/GYN and we had a patient who aborted twins because...ready...the wedding was months away and she already had the dress which wouldn;t fit if she were pregnant.

She saw the ultrasound, two health heartbeats, 12 weeks - aborted. She and he lawyer husband went on to have 3 more kids with my doctor (who never did abortions.)

yes, it's legal - but it's vile.

304 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:03:54pm

re: #301 song_and_dance_man

Uncle bro, Uncle.

305 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:04:23pm

re: #296 Pro-Bush Canuck

Ha! We lived in Monsey, and one of our daughters in law is from there, and her parents live there. It was far more rural in the 1960's, when we lived there.

Did you use the Tappan Zee Bridge? It is in really bad shape now.

306 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:05:23pm

re: #304 shanec99

re: #301 song_and_dance_man

Uncle bro, Uncle.

We're good now - lol

307 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:05:24pm

re: #302 steve

Outstanding

308 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:05:33pm

re: #297 Carol Herman

In today's world the UNAFFILIATED have walked. And, yes. They vote. You wanna name-call this?

Who's name calling? I think people here have put forth some reasonable and logical arguments. I haven't seen any name calling.

Perhaps you are over sensitive. Or merely seeing things that aren't there.

309 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:06:20pm

re: #302 steve

As recently as 1984 when I was at university in Canada it was no problem to have my 12 ga. shotgun on campus, which I did, along with my .22 plinking gun and a .308 deer rifle.

Guns on a Canadian campus today are as likely as seeing a unicorn.

310 FrogMarch  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:06:24pm

re: #276 wanumba

The only GOP right now with the successful executive experience in complicated states - exactly the background required for ANY credible presidency are Giuliani and Jeb Bush.
Giuliani is making the effort to run. He's sharp, he's solid and he KNOWS THE LAW. Not like a corporate lawyer like Hillary "knows" the law, but CRIMINAL law. Different type of mentality altogether, tougher debate, tougher living, bringing criminals to justice.
Bet the Democrats think Giuliani's close to their worst nightmare - when he looks at the attorney generals and the federal prosecutors - what kind of person would Rudy want to see in those jobs? This is a guy who went after organized crime. Giuliani knows where to aim his arrows, direct his archers, when it comes to targets in criminal investigations. Must be chilling to the scandal-ridden Dems.
Don't know if Jeb will run - but he's got fantastic experience, too, in a difficult state (size, population mix, urban/rural, domestic/international etc etc.) The Left has been putting out the line that anyone Bush SHOULDN'T run - on a bizarro "anti-dynasty" excuse - which is just garbage talk to clear the field for the correct " dynasty" - the Clintons. The MSM is pumping out all the questionable concepts of "voter fatigue" against Jeb. Will he fall for the phony construct or will he ignore it and run hard and run to win? Don't know yet.

Not a single Dem candidate has executive experience - apart from Richardson, but he's nowhere right now and even though that governorship legitimately puts him head and shoulders above the gaggle of corporate lawyers that make up the Democrat field, NM isn't of the level of training that is gained in such "mini-nations" as California, Texas, Florida, even New York. Still, in a serious business as the US presidency, in time of war no less, it's pathetic that the Democrats are serious only about personal ambition, but not personal ability in managing. The presidency is supposed about leading the country, not having the country serve one's ego.


It's ironic that Rudy went after organized crime. The clintons are the biggest mob bosses of them all.

311 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:06:36pm

re: #306 DistantThunder

God bless you.

312 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:06:43pm

re: #294 shanec99

re: #291 DistantThunder

Remind them bro, and not all Dems are bad... Kennedy wasnt a bad guy.

(Tinfoil hat firmly on head) I believe that Kennedy's assassination was the climactic event in which the Democrat party fell into the Commy clutches.

/checks under desk and in phone for bugs...

313 ziggyelman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:07:34pm

re: #169 Opinionated

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

Conservatives should look at just how much the Liberal establishment of NYC hates Giuliani. With good reason from their point of view.

Liberals don't bother to hate Conservatives who are no threat to them.

Is there any other Republican running so despised by Liberals?

Excellent point! I frequent a ultra lib jazz forum(they don't like Hillary since she was for the war) but, they HATE, HATE, Rudy! call him a fascist, claim the firefighters, and police are against him, you name it...just slightly less white hot hatred for him than Bush, and if he won...oh my! ;)

314 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:08:16pm

re: #305 NY Nana

Every time I've been there in the past couple years I've been picked up at Logan by one of the kids who works in the office. I learned my lesson, and avoid driving around Boston when I can get chauferred instead.

Last time we drove past the restaurant owned by the Aerosmith guys. That's a really nice little town.

315 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:08:38pm

re: #312 Oh no...Sand People!

You are a riot.

316 steve  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:09:18pm

re: #309 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #302 steve

As recently as 1984 when I was at university in Canada it was no problem to have my 12 ga. shotgun on campus, which I did, along with my .22 plinking gun and a .308 deer rifle.

Guns on a Canadian campus today are as likely as seeing a unicorn.

Let me quote several of the previous comments:

"Now that thar jus ain't right."
you need guns back on campus.

Good night and God bless to all of you. Got to get ready for work.

317 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:09:41pm

re: #179 ornery elephant

A Question.

If Hillary Clinton is elected President, will she
have served the least amount of time in Public Elected Office before
becoming President than any other President? The only ones that come to
mind are Kennedy and Eisenhower.


Eisenhower, elected in 1952. Was elected again, in 1956. Served out both terms.

If Hillary gets elected "in" ... she's safe.

Don't ask me to predict the future.

318 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:10:10pm

I am an abortion survivor in that I was the debate of a huge battle between grandparents about what to do with my life, when I was the unplanned pregnancy, and abortion was illegal in 1960.

My police officer grandfather, (detective, and assistant to the states attorney's office) said famously to my grandmother who was insisiting that my mother abort me:

"Now we are not have any of that" and to my mother, 15 - "welcome to the family."

He put his patriarchal foot down hard - and saved my life - Thanks Gramps.

How could he in good conscience have arranged for an illegal abortion - hhhmmm?

319 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:10:14pm

re: #316 steve

Goodnight Steve ! Very nice talking with you :)

320 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:10:19pm

re: #137 Arkay

Sock puppets for aborters get nowhere in the GOP.

Rudy has a record of reducing abortions in NYC. Some "sock puppet".

321 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:10:22pm

re: #317 Carol Herman

re: #179 ornery elephant

A Question.

If Hillary Clinton is elected President, will she
have served the least amount of time in Public Elected Office before
becoming President than any other President? The only ones that come to
mind are Kennedy and Eisenhower.


Eisenhower, elected in 1952. Was elected again, in 1956. Served out both terms.

If Hillary gets elected "in" ... she's safe.

Don't ask me to predict the future.

The Mayan Calendar 'ends' in 2012.

322 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:11:44pm

re: #318 DistantThunder

I am an abortion survivor in that I was the debate of a huge battle between grandparents about what to do with my life,

Me too. Mother still tells me she made a mistake. Keeping me, that is.

323 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:12:26pm

re: #318 DistantThunder

I am an abortion survivor in that I was the debate of a huge battle between grandparents about what to do with my life, when I was the unplanned pregnancy, and abortion was illegal in 1960.

My police officer grandfather, (detective, and assistant to the states attorney's office) said famously to my grandmother who was insisiting that my mother abort me:

"Now we are not have any of that" and to my mother, 15 - "welcome to the family."

He put his patriarchal foot down hard - and saved my life - Thanks Gramps.

How could he in good conscience have arranged for an illegal abortion - hhhmmm?

OOps - my mother was 17, my father 19...he cried at his own wedding...fear I think.

324 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:12:55pm

re: #322 mama winger

re: #318 DistantThunder

I am an abortion survivor in that I was the debate of a huge battle between grandparents about what to do with my life,
Me too. Mother still tells me she made a mistake. Keeping me, that is.

She's kidding I hope - what a vile thing to say

325 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:14:02pm

re: #324 DistantThunder

Oh no. she's not kidding at all. She goes even further. If abortion were legal before 1964, she would not have had my brother or sister either.

326 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:14:29pm

re: #318 DistantThunder

Your grand father seemed like quite a man.

Someone said something profound to me the other day.

They said abortions should be encouraged to young women who have not married the father of the baby, especially if they have not finished schools.

Have they ever considered how Jesus changed the world?

His momma was not married, she was young, and she was not very educated.

327 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:15:06pm

re: #325 mama winger

re: #324 DistantThunder

Oh no. she's not kidding at all. She goes even further. If abortion were legal before 1964, she would not have had my brother or sister either.

My mother said the same thing about my little brother.

328 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:15:09pm

re: #325 mama winger

re: #324 DistantThunder

Oh no. she's not kidding at all. She goes even further. If abortion were legal before 1964, she would not have had my brother or sister either.

Maybe she realizes that she wasn;t cut out to be a mother - but obviously she's wrong - only badly damaged people make such post hoc statements.

329 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:15:17pm

re: #186 Q-Burn

re: #175 Carol Herman

I've
been registered independent since 1972, before independent was cool. I
never could stomach any party enough to register with them. Or maybe
it's a Groucho Marx thing... wouldn't want to be a member of any party
that would let me in.

I'mnot sure, but I don't think you can vote in primary elections, without selecting one of the parties?

I could be wrong. I'm just not sure. Can you vote in primaries without trouble?

330 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:16:37pm

re: #328 DistantThunder
What a mean thing to say.

331 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:16:38pm

re: #328 DistantThunder

You're right. Not everyone is cut out to be a mother. Good news is - I now get to be the mother I wish that I could have had.

332 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:17:18pm

re: #327 NJDhockeyfan

It's a kick in the teeth, isn't it?

333 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:17:31pm

re: #325 mama winger

uuhhh...mama if you were here right now,i'd be giving you a big hug.
(you hit a nerve)

334 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:17:39pm
335 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:18:11pm

re: #327 NJDhockeyfan

re: #325 mama winger

re: #324 DistantThunder

Oh no. she's not kidding at all. She goes even further. If abortion were legal before 1964, she would not have had my brother or sister either.

My mother said the same thing about my little brother.

What's interesting is how wrong people are in predicting outcomes of pregancies - 1/2 of us were unplanned. Some of the most expensive pregnancies due to invitro etc - end up with damamged lives when mom falls apart because she's finally caught what she's chasing. There should be an abortion game: describe the circumstance of the mother, then deciden Abort or not - the reveal who the child became in real life.

What do you think?

336 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:18:24pm

re: #332 mama winger

re: #327 NJDhockeyfan

It's a kick in the teeth, isn't it?


For my brother it is. She still supports abortion as does my little brother. I just don't get it.

337 ziggyelman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:18:37pm

re: #325 mama winger

re: #324 DistantThunder

Oh no. she's not kidding at all. She goes even further. If abortion were legal before 1964, she would not have had my brother or sister either.

Mama Winger...that is terrible! Glad you are here, and your Brother and Sister!

338 shanec99  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:18:38pm

re: #331 mama winger

God bless you sister.

You seem to have turned out well.

339 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:19:02pm

re: #333 Boondock St. Bender

{boondock}

virtual hugs all 'round :)


I have worked past it, many years ago now. It's all good.

340 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:19:02pm

re: #329 Carol Herman

It depends which state. Some have open primaries. Most require you to be registered with a certain party to vote in their primary.

341 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:19:42pm

re: #330 shanec99

re: #328 DistantThunder
What a mean thing to say.

I'm a counselor - there is such a thing as toxic parenting - making those statement is a big red flag of depression or personality disorders because ususally the bond between parent and child is sufficient to wipe away those past regrets.

342 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:19:48pm

re: #338 shanec99

re: #331 mama winger

God bless you sister.

You seem to have turned out well.

Thank God for that. Literally. He showed me how to be a good parent.

343 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:20:31pm

re: #337 ziggyelman

Thanks ziggy!

344 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:20:45pm

re: #339 mama winger

very glad to hear it.and yes,it sounds to me you are the mom you would have liked to have had.

345 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:20:54pm

re: #336 NJDhockeyfan

Guilt.

346 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:21:15pm

re: #219 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #211 opinionated

When
the Bill of Rights was drafted did the states (or municipalities) then
have the power to enforce laws which overrode those enumerated rights?

As
a legal naif, I find this somewhat mystifying. Either the right exists,
or it doesn't. How can a local government suppress a right that the
feds cannot?

There was NO US NAVY!

For the first 45 years, America suffered from piracy.

And, getting the six frigates built ... that would finally destroy the musselmen, didn't really come about until James Monroe, President #5, went into the Well, in Congress. And, STIPULATED THE MONROE DOCTRINE. December 1823 (I believe.)

Just the history of establishing a navy proved difficult. Because? Each state complained from another angle. They say the FEDS gaining strength. Instead of it being for ALL.

347 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:21:33pm

re: #344 Boondock St. Bender

re: #339 mama winger

very glad to hear it.and yes,it sounds to me you are the mom you would have liked to have had.

I AM UBER-MOM !

lol :)

348 jaybird  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:22:26pm

I don't like several of Rudy's positions. I'm definitely to the right of him. But I nevertheless like him and would vote for him in a nanosecond.

349 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:23:29pm

re: #225 steve

re: #158 Thanos

But if you look at his record he consistently does what he says he will. He doesn't mince words -- if he were duplicitous he would not have appeared in front of conservatives and given his views straight up.

I know folks feel burned by Bush, however don't tar Rudy with Bush disillusionment friend.

thanos, I understand what you are saying but:

1. I do not feel burned by Bush. Never really trusted him 100% in the first place. But he was the lesser of the two evils out there.

2. I cannot really explain why I do not trust Rudi but I have these bells and whistles go off in my head when I here people say “I believe trust is more important than 100 percent agreement.”

Let me see if I can explain this feeling that I get. Please forgive my rambling.
My former neighbor was a nice young man (in his mid 20"s) always dealt honestly with me did what he said (returned tools or lawn mower etc.) But one day he slipped and feel in his bathtub. The fire department medics showed up. An ambulance came, the fire department left and the ambulance left. About ten minutes after they all left I get a call from my brother who was one of the firemen there. Seems that their response kit is missing. I go next door and ask the guys wife about it. (A rather large suit case that is is bright orange). She say that she does not remember seeing it but will look in the house for it. House is 987 sq feet. About ten minutes later she comes to the door holding it and says "is this it?" I say yes take the kit hot foot it to the fire department with it and make them very happy. Before I get home my brother calls and asks if I had opened up the case. Seems that their small case of controlled meds is missing. The fire department call the neighbor and his wife has the gall to say that they did not open the case and I was the last one to have it. Needless to say the Sheriff shows up spends almost two hours in their house and come out with the 'meds' bag.
She says to me that she thought it was her husbands tool kit and he tells me that he does not have an addiction to drugs, But "IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU BELIEVE ME".

This is how I feel about Rudi!

Once your eyes are opened you can't go back to pretending you don;t know.

350 KayMichelle  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:23:37pm

There is more to Guiliani than just this.

It is his globalist ties that make me uncomfortable:


Bracewell & Giuliani LLP is a prominent international law firm. With more than 400 lawyers in Texas, New York, Washington DC, Connecticut, Dubai, Kazakhstan and London, we serve clients concentrated in the energy and financial services sectors worldwide.


[Link: www.bracewellgiuliani.com...]


He is also the attorney for the Spanish consortium that is buying the toll road for the North American Corridor. That will put out of work hundreds, perhaps thousands of truckers.

And how much do corporations save by having these offshore companies? Do they still pay taxes to the U.S.? I just wonder why they feel they need to protect the citizens of U.A.E.

351 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:23:39pm
"I will support any reasonable suggestion that promises to reduce the number of abortions. I support parental notifications and I will continue to and I support and will continue to support the ban on partial birth abortion."

Oh! So Rudy's not the abortion boogeyman so many want to paint him as. So, until the day comes something can be done about Roe v. Wade, it looks like Rudy wants to work within the law to reduce abortions as well as limit underage and on-demand abortion practices. I find this reasonable, and not so far off the party platform. The Republicans have a big tent, and I don't think this man's position on one issue should be enough to have him shunned.

352 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:23:41pm

re: #299 DistantThunder

FDR refused to lift a finger when he know that Jews were being put into concentration camps and also into ovens.

Eleanor Roosevelt was also a Jew hater, but something changed her, and she became a champion of the Jews.

As a child, growing up during WWII, I was shielded so much, but found out later..it has hurt ever since that the USA turned away Jews who were trying to escape Europe.

If only...

353 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:24:27pm

re: #348 jaybird

I don't like several of Rudy's positions. I'm definitely to the right of him. But I nevertheless like him and would vote for him in a nanosecond.

People make mistakes when they vote for personality instead of character. His womanizing reveals a pattern of self-indulgence very typcial of politicians.

354 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:26:40pm

re: #31 Ginn

re: #25 Opinionated

The United States and Western Civilization will need a very unique proven leader in 2009-2013.

Everyone has heard the Flood Story.

A town is threatened with flooding, and the police evacuate everyone . One guy refuses to leave, saying, "I trust that God will save me." As the waters rise, a fire engine, motorboat and helicopter all try to pluck the man from the flood. Finally he is washed away. When he finds himself before the throne of God, he is indignant. "Why didn't you save me from the flood?" he demands of the Almighty. God replies, "What do you think the cop, fire engine, boat and helicopter were all about?"

In 2008, the flood is a Democrat.

In 2008, IMO, Giuliani is cop, fire engine and helicopter.

Yeah.. cool post!

I knew a man (from Bullard, Texas) with a malignant tumor on his neck. He was going to trust God to heal him. Three different times, when he was out and about, doctors saw the tumor and recognized what it was and offered the man free surgery and related expenses. This man spoke of these offers because he saw them as satanic temptations which he was resisting. Lots of Christian people offered to help and told him that his views of divine healing and human medicine were wrong. He stood his ground and died. Thankfully, his church where he got his views closed its doors soon after.

355 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:26:50pm

re: #345 mama winger

re: #336 NJDhockeyfan

Guilt.


I had to do a report on abortion in high school. I checked out some books from the library that were fairly graphic and showed my mother. Still had no effect. I have no idea why my brother supports it.

You are a prime example of why abortion should be outlawed. God was watching over you during your mother's difficult time.

356 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:28:01pm
"If we expect perfection from our political leaders, we're just asking to be disappointed."

-Rudy Giuliani

357 kcladderman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:31:38pm

re: #322 mama winger
My abortion survivor just slammed the door.
16 years ago wife and I were sperated she became pregnate by another man. I told her not to do anything stupid. I stayed married to her long enough for her to stay on my health care.
Skip ahead a year and for some unknown reason we tried to get back together. Well needless to say she is still no longer my wife but that beautiful babygirl is now my pain in the rear teenaged daughter.
Who I love more than life its self.

358 Arkay  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:33:06pm

Roe IS the law.>>

So was Dred Scott.

So were the Nuremberg Laws.

And, to Strict Constructionists, it means what it says. The law is the law.>>>

So a law stating that people named Carol are not human is law? Didn't think so.

Don't confuse the slavery issue, which was about compromising what most people hated. To abortions. Which gets USED.>>

Slavery was used. SLAVES were used. It's why slavery had to go. As will abortion for exactly the same reason.

If it was UNPOPULAR, it would die on the vine.>>

Slavery was popular (for whites), and it didn't die on the vine.

Don't encourage naked evil.

359 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:36:34pm

re: #224 R.A.D. Dad


I don't think it's a sense of inevitability.

Rudy, however, is just great in every debate where he's shown up. And, he's not afraid to swing at Hillary; considering her the democratic condendah.

I think people would look forward to watching him campaign.

Back in 2000, Rudy had the experience of INSIDERS within the republican party (of NY), telling him to pull out! This was Pataki's crappy machine.

Today, Pataki ain't a condendah.

While New York State's republican party is in one hell of a mess!

Against, Hillary, in 2000, those loons chose Rick Lazio. Oh, yeah. He had good hair.

To prove, yet again, good hair isn't the best advantage. (Take that! Silk Pony Boy!)

Again. Lots of water under the bridge.

Politics is for grown ups.

Otherwise kids would be allowed to vote.

Now, separate from Rudy, there is this "pink elephant" in the room. That's been holding back republican success. It's the "abortion tune."

Where people just rejected, over and over again, to ever give the senate 60 republicans!

Sometimes, you've got to fix what's broken, inside. Where "customer demands" warped what can actually be delivered, across this NATION. The presidency is the only vote we get to cast, within a national framework. When it's over?

You get some interesting results.

For instance. McGovern was asked if his loss hurt? (He lost 49 states.) He said, because he was a grown up he was too old to cry, but hurt enough, he could not laugh.

Every four years, Americans come together. By district? Strictly local politics.

But over the whole? Gee, it really matters.

Reagan was a gift to the republican party. But, alas, some who got into the leadership, could not lead.

Tom DeLay wrote a wonderful book of what his experiences in the HOUSE were like. He lost friends, when they weren't sent back, after Bubba beat the rap. And, wasn't impeached. (You bet. Insider's learn lessons.)

Tom DeLay also rips Newt Gingrich and Dick Armey "a new one." That's how angry he got at the poor leadership he had to suffer through.

You wouldn't believe all the back-stabbing.

Again. Politicians deal with politics once they are elected.

But the process involves the entire nation; when we're out there picking our next president.

And, we need to accept what the results show. Or we get to where we are now, with divisive hatred. You think Harry Reid wasn't insane with hate, when he pulled together 40 others in his own party, to write that dumb letter?

Reid didn't know it was dumb, though. Until the shit hit the fan.

360 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:39:39pm

re: #351 Sharmuta

I will probably get quite a reaction..IMHO, and I have said it before, in these times we now live in, we have to perhaps change our priorities. Terrorism is Job One, and the threat is real, as we sadly found out. What good will fighting over Roe v.Wade, gun control, et al do, if we put them as our most important issue?

Make no mistake. Terrorism and the cult of islams' threat to all of us who are not cult members, in the age of nuclear weapons, has to be what delineates a candidate who 'gets it'. Not one demonrat comes close, or seems to have a clue..Rudy is the man.

If we want our kids and grandkids to have a future, we must vote for the candidate who will handle it as best he can...and sadly, who has on the job experience.

This election is the most important one in our history.

361 Arkay  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:40:53pm

Rudy has a record of reducing abortions in NYC. Some "sock puppet".>>

Did he stop them? No? Did he even try? No?

Sock puppet.

362 wildcat_clan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:41:03pm

re: #356 Sharmuta

Well spoken by a gun-grabbing (Stood with Clinton), pro-choice candidate who filed suit to keep running his sanctuary city. He has never been in a war nor does he know anything about how to conduct one. Where he got his gravitas on the WOT, I wouldn't have a clue. He has good reason to be the champion of the imperfect.

363 Praetyre  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:42:13pm

#255 Mama Winger;
Perhaps I am wrong. But my idea of social conservatism is thus;
"The government has a moral responsibility to enforce God's/whatever's moral laws, and to prevent situations where public decency and morality is compromised by degeneracy and sin."

My idea of social conservatism is a much milder version of the doctrines of the mutaween of Saudi Arabia, and it seems to me the self described "social conservatives" on websites such as, say, Free Republic would support measures such as banning homosexuals from holding jobs in areas with children, banning pornography totally, even to adults, imposing tight, moralistic watersheds upon television programming, higher restrictions on the content of private broadcasting and banning private drug use or private prostitution.

Abortion is a matter of coercion, since it arguably involves the killing of an innocent child. But who does drug use harm? Who does legal, well managed prostitution harm? The type of social conservatism I am talking about bears resemblance to liberal opposition to violent electronic media, support of gun control (interesting, since we are speaking of Rudy Giuliani) and support of making things like "sin taxes" or "mandatory exercise" to make activists, politicians and bureaucrats the decider of a person's diet, rather than the person or his parents. It's a form of nanny statism, something I detest, and a very socialist (leftist) concept.

Now, I am not accusing you of supporting these things. Nor do I believe the majority of evangelical Christians support these things. But, while the leftists vastly exaggerate it's power and insidiousness, it is impossible to deny there is a Christian Right that maintains a level of power over both the Democrat and Republican parties. The American Family Association, Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, Parents Television Council. They are all nationwide organizations with a degree of influence upon voting constituncies that cannot be overruled. The fact Giuliani is concerned about his ratings with them proves that.

If by social conservatism you mean a simple, private holding of "traditional" values and the desire to, in your household and local area, work towards these values being promoted noncoercively, that's fine. I am myself religious, but in my opinion, God has given us free will to use and only he can judge us. If you keep a thing down, it will only get worse and worse, like drugs. Let people condemn themselves out of their own mouths, take personal rights AND responsibilities, and answer to God for it as one of these responsibilities. God bless you.

364 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:42:43pm

re: #360 NY Nana

re: #351 Sharmuta

I will probably get quite a reaction..IMHO, and I have said it before, in these times we now live in, we have to perhaps change our priorities. Terrorism is Job One, and the threat is real, as we sadly found out. What good will fighting over Roe v.Wade, gun control, et al do, if we put them as our most important issue?

Make no mistake. Terrorism and the cult of islams' threat to all of us who are not cult members, in the age of nuclear weapons, has to be what delineates a candidate who 'gets it'. Not one demonrat comes close, or seems to have a clue..Rudy is the man.

If we want our kids and grandkids to have a future, we must vote for the candidate who will handle it as best he can...and sadly, who has on the job experience.

This election is the most important one in our history.


Absolutely right. The terrorists even know that and that's why they endorse the Democrats. They know what a bunch of fools they are.

365 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:44:04pm

re: #360 NY Nana

I agree 100% with you Nana. Surviving the islamist threat comes first. Everything else I hold dear and important will be rendered mute if we should lose. I believe Rudy gets that.

366 Uncle_Meat  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:45:25pm

Eew. As a Registered Gun Nut, CCP in wallet, I hate his position on the 2nd. Ditto on killing babies (I think Mom should have to wait until her kids understand that she intends to murder them, and they get a running start, otherwise, it's not really sporting, is it?) But, Rudy has made it obvious that he knows about the real danger, and that he doesn't intend for America to submit. I guess anything else is just gravy. I won't donate, but, if it comes to it, I'll hold my nose and vote for him.

367 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:46:18pm

re: #361 Arkay

Did he even try?

What part of reducing the numbers isn't trying?

368 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:47:11pm

re: #350 KayMichelle

There is more to Guiliani than just this.

It is his globalist ties that make me uncomfortable:


Bracewell & Giuliani LLP is a prominent international law firm. With more than 400 lawyers in Texas, New York, Washington DC, Connecticut, Dubai, Kazakhstan and London, we serve clients concentrated in the energy and financial services sectors worldwide.


[Link: www.bracewellgiuliani.com...]


He is also the attorney for the Spanish consortium that is buying the toll road for the North American Corridor. That will put out of work hundreds, perhaps thousands of truckers.

And how much do corporations save by having these offshore companies? Do they still pay taxes to the U.S.? I just wonder why they feel they need to protect the citizens of U.A.E.

More attention needs to be paid to this. The toll-road thing here in Texas is a complete travesty. Rick Perry and Rudy are in bed on this, selling out taxpayer-funded highways to private foreign interests. And don't get me started on the Trans-Texas Corridor. See any tfk rant on the Texas Republican money cult, it's all true.

Recently they improved the state highway that runs to the airport. Now, I just read that I will have to pay a toll to use this road unless I want to use a traffic-choked frontage road. I'll have to pay tribute to a private foreign company to get to the freakin' airport on time! To use a public Texas state highway I already paid for. Thank you Rick Perry and Rudy.

Then there's his work for Hugo Chavez' Citgo, the Mexican government etc. Maybe Rudy is just another internationalist.

369 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:48:41pm

re: #252 Live4Truth

Tom DeLay demolishes Newt Gingrich in his book. He says Newt's full of ideas. A new one every day. No follow up.

If Newt were selected? (Which I doubt.) There's gonna be a field day on the right, and left. Because his record in the HOUSE was a disaster.

I don't know who is going to win.

Ann Coulter, on Drudge's old radio show, said she'd love it to be Duncan Hunter. But he's not getting ahead with the voters. (Yeah. In a world where Ron Paul has no trouble being identified.)

Guiliani wouldn't pick Mitt, either. Because there's something in politics, "that balances the ticket." Of course, this gives Fred Thompson the advantage. The wives would be Judi and Jeri. FUN!

Again, this is not an ENDORSEMENT. Nor do I "do" futures.

You want futures, ya gotta go to Hillary? She's the expert, don't cha know? She can gamble money on futures, and she always ends up with the winning end. Ah, yes. Beginner's luck. Whatever.

370 Pro-Bush Canuck  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:49:09pm

re: #363 Praetyre

Perhaps I am wrong.

You are definitely wrong. And I don't think you're winning any friends comparing American evangelicals to Saudi fascists. That is deeply insulting to many people here, me included.

371 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:50:56pm

re: #357 kcladderman

re: #322 mama winger
My abortion survivor just slammed the door.
16 years ago wife and I were sperated she became pregnate by another man. I told her not to do anything stupid. I stayed married to her long enough for her to stay on my health care.
Skip ahead a year and for some unknown reason we tried to get back together. Well needless to say she is still no longer my wife but that beautiful babygirl is now my pain in the rear teenaged daughter.
Who I love more than life its self.

That is so wonderful - LIFE was the answer to the problem - not the problem.

372 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:52:33pm
Where he got his gravitas on the WOT, I wouldn't have a clue.

Yeah, I wonder.

373 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:52:46pm

re: #111 Carol Herman

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

re: #82 Oh no...Sand People!
If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, Rudy it is.

IF it comes down to Hillary and Rudy.

What if it comes down to Hillary and Ron Paul?
Ron Paul is without a chance.

How he gets to it, though, without enough money, could make for a good Keystone Cops feature.

Then it is time. Time to clean the gun. Because the civilre: #190 Live4Truth

re: #112 Killgore Trout

Thoroughly inappropriate, KT. A crude and degrading insult to all Roman Catholics, who consider communion most holy. (and no, I'm not RC).

war as begun.

A good friend of mine, he's now a priest, used to call them "Jesus Cookies".

374 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:53:04pm

re: #255 mama winger

Abortion is the topic that leads people away from the republican party, in droves.

Trying to sell it as needing to send women back into back alleys, will be met with the same success as "selling the Edsel."

At some point, insiders can figure out what they need to do to stock their shelves; when they're hoping to make sales.

Can people live with abortion being the LAW, and then not doing it? Sure.

That's the whole idea behind keeping it a healthy choice.

Where, by the way, funding DARE, with "Just Say No To Drugs" is an idiotic approach to convincing Americans of anything.

Our US Constitution is really free of dictating religious beliefs.

Ditto, no "king gives permission." It's just WE THE PEOPLE.

Pick a "Tom Dewey" to run in 2008. And, lick your wounds.

It's happened before.

375 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:53:17pm

re: #370 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #363 Praetyre

Perhaps I am wrong.
You are definitely wrong. And I don't think you're winning any friends comparing American evangelicals to Saudi fascists. That is deeply insulting to many people here, me included.

Who does drug use harm? Is that a joke? The foster care system is overflowing with collateral damage. Children develop empathy when their limbic systems resonate with love provided by the caretaker - Drugs completely impair and interrupt that process.

376 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:53:44pm

PIMF

re: #112 Killgore Trout

Thoroughly inappropriate, KT. A crude and degrading insult to all Roman Catholics, who consider communion most holy. (and no, I'm not RC).

war as begun.

A good friend of mine, he's now a priest, used to call them "Jesus Cookies".

377 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:55:22pm

re: #364 NJDhockeyfan

re: #365 Sharmuta

Thanks, both of you. NJD hockey fan, I assume that you are in NJ, and also have 9/11 burned into your brain.

Sadly, I would give anything if terrorism was not the issue, but it is, and will not go away, especially with our borders so open, and so many illegals still coming here unstopped. How many are terrorists? G-d help us.

Here is an excellent article on the Jewish stand on abortion. As a Jew, it is what I both follow and commend.

BBL...dinnertime.

Play nice!

378 R.A.D. Dad  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:55:58pm

If it's all about the W.O.T then people, lets sing the praises of Duncan Hunter! The mans been to war himself, and his own son has been in this war. He understands the threat completely, including the danger or radical Islam. He also understands the greater threat, which may not seem so pressing but has the potential to be far more devastating, China. On illegal immigration he's a staunch advocate of enforcing the law and protecting the borders. He's got our nations security in mind on several fronts, not just the W.O.T. all Rudy has is the W.O.T. he will be more than happy to turn a blind eye to China in the name of globalism, same with illegal immigration. I for the life of me can not understand logically why Hunter or Huck, or Tancredo aren't getting more attention.

379 DistantThunder  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:56:50pm

re: #374 Carol Herman

re: #255 mama winger

Abortion is the topic that leads people away from the republican party, in droves.

Trying to sell it as needing to send women back into back alleys, will be met with the same success as "selling the Edsel."

At some point, insiders can figure out what they need to do to stock their shelves; when they're hoping to make sales.

Can people live with abortion being the LAW, and then not doing it? Sure.

That's the whole idea behind keeping it a healthy choice.

Where, by the way, funding DARE, with "Just Say No To Drugs" is an idiotic approach to convincing Americans of anything.

Our US Constitution is really free of dictating religious beliefs.

Ditto, no "king gives permission." It's just WE THE PEOPLE.

Pick a "Tom Dewey" to run in 2008. And, lick your wounds.

It's happened before.

I don't understand when people say that one side of the argument is government safe abortion and the other side of the argument is back alley abortion.

That's like saying that one side of the argument is surgical female genital circumcision, and the other side is back alley female genital mutilation.

What about "live with and deal with the healthy genital tissues and fetuses that exist?

380 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:57:38pm

re: #378 R.A.D. Dad

I like Duncan Hunter.

381 stuck-in-ca  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:59:13pm

re: #351 Sharmuta


Oh! So Rudy's not the abortion boogeyman so many want to paint him as. So, until the day comes something can be done about Roe v. Wade, it looks like Rudy wants to work within the law to reduce abortions as well as limit underage and on-demand abortion practices. I find this reasonable, and not so far off the party platform. The Republicans have a big tent, and I don't think this man's position on one issue should be enough to have him shunned.


I don't support Rudy...not because of his abortion stance which I can live with, but because of his weak position on illegal immigration, which most of the candidates share...on both sides of the aisle.

But of course if he gets the nod, I will vote for him. He's tough enough for the job.

382 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 3:59:37pm

re: #374 Carol Herman

Abortion is the topic that leads people away from the republican party, in droves.

Actually, that is not true. The Republicans never had such overwhelming victories as when social values headed up their campaigns.

Need a clue? Think about the 'Moral Majority' years. It is only as these social issues have been relegated to the periphery that the Republicans have bled voters.

Fact is, the social conservatives, most notably the evangelical right, brought the Republican Party back from the total minority status it once held, and will hold again, if no one can tell the difference between Democrats and Republicans any more.

383 FrogMarch  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:00:32pm

re: #264 Promethea

Apropos of various comments on this thread . . .

I think that many pro-gun advocates fail to understand the culture of many Americans in "blue" areas. Believe it or not, there are millions of us who have never seen a gun or learned to shoot. This is one of those culture divides that mark American society. I have a cousin who spent some time in Colorado and came back amazed that the people she ran into taught their children how to shoot. At that time, we were also amazed.

The internet--and LGF in particular--have given me more insight into the importance of the Second Amendment. I just thought I should mention the fact that millions of city types do not have the same pro-gun attitudes. I believe that Rudy is attractive to millions of those types since he is obviously conflicted about the subject.

I don't think one President can satisfy all voters on all subjects. For me, the big subjects of our era are the War on Terror and creeping Islamicization.

I agree. I want the option to protect myself if need be and I fear a government that will take away that right. The second Amendment keeps everybody safe. When you disarm the populous, the criminals get the upper hand. An armed populace keeps the criminals guessing. It's pretty elementary. When Britain enacted strict anti-gun laws - crime went up by 40%.

384 budvarakbar  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:04:10pm

re: #13 Carol Herman

Three of the republican condendahs have had cancer. Guiliani. Fred Thompson. And, McCain.

A lot of luck is also needed to get to 2008 with a presidential condendah who can whip Hillary.

Here? Guiliani shows that you go into the ring! You don't demand that the lion gets his teeth pulled, either.

It has occurred to me off and on over the last few weeks that a certain DEM front runner will come down with cancer (female type) next spring as soon as the primaries have cemented her lead -- and there will be headlines every day/every newspaper/every newscast/sunday am talking head shows with weekly update - for several months leading to the convention re all the details re the chemo - etc etc -- she will be visiting cancer wards every few days all around the country and with special emphasis on visiting children's (esp minorities) in cancer wards -- and then 'poof!' a remakable recovery (remission) just before or during the Demo convention. -- watch for it!

Of course the treatment will be used to showcase how expensive and difficult it will be for the average person without (or even with) insurance to get the necessary care (natch' tho -- her real care will be undercover -- wink wink) -- I would not be suprised to find the hildabeast making a show of getting some care in a socialized medicine country.

Now of course on second thought -- BJ will be at the end of his usefullness as a fund raiser by mid-spring or early summer and he may be the victim -- full-court press style

385 Ma Sands  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:04:12pm

re: #318 DistantThunder

Ohhh... :)
Your story makes me so happy! :)
Thank you for telling it! :)

386 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:04:26pm

re: #303 DistantThunder

Illegal, back alley abortions were worse!

Besides, in your story, you're describing a lawyer and her "groom," prior o the wedding.

Let me guess. This wasn't on a shoe string.

So, just like Ronald Reagan knew what was going on "behind the scenes in hollywood," you could really get doctors to do just about anything.

Legalizing abortions makes this safe, now, for others. And, as Rudy Guiliani says, POOR WOMEN ALSO DESERVE TO HAVE CHOICE.

Ah, and doctors, let me also remind you, supply drugs. Some? The patient complains of a pain. Then the patient complains at another doctor's office. The meds are released by pharmacists.

Today, at least, we have data bases, where "mistakes" like this can be checked. And, stopped.

Always?

There's no such thing as "always."

Prohibition, however, only destroys POLITICAL PARTIES. It's never effective.

As if republicans, today, didn't know they had a problem with their right.

Just as democrats, today, don't know they have a problem with their base, on the left.

See? Too much pandering.

It's gotta stop.

387 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:05:39pm

re: #322 mama winger

re: #318 DistantThunder

I am an abortion survivor in that I was the debate of a huge battle between grandparents about what to do with my life,

Me too. Mother still tells me she made a mistake. Keeping me, that is.

You know, there's a joke that goes with that.

A kid asks her mom if she was adopted. And, the mom responds, not yet. But I'm trying.

388 Q-Burn  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:06:56pm

I understand why people like and support Rudy. I really don't understand how people can say he is the strongest candidate to beat Hillary.

There are many reasons why he is a weak candidate vs. Hillary. Y'alls first clue should be the fact that so many people here don't want to drink their Rudy-Aid just yet, for various reasons.

389 Ma Sands  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:06:58pm

re: #323 DistantThunder

...my father 19...he cried at his own wedding...fear I think...

Does he like all his grandkids...? :)

390 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:07:04pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

re: #249 Cattt

My latin stinks. Had to google that one.

Perhaps you prefer the Greek:

&Omicron γα&rho θεο&sigmaf αγαπ&eta εστι. -&Alpha Ιωαννη&sigmaf δ:η

391 Ma Sands  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:08:17pm

re: #326 shanec99

:)

392 R.A.D. Dad  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:09:32pm

re: #379 DistantThunder

re: #374 Carol Herman

re: #255 mama winger

Abortion is the topic that leads people away from the republican party, in droves.

Trying to sell it as needing to send women back into back alleys, will be met with the same success as "selling the Edsel."

At some point, insiders can figure out what they need to do to stock their shelves; when they're hoping to make sales.

Can people live with abortion being the LAW, and then not doing it? Sure.

That's the whole idea behind keeping it a healthy choice.

Where, by the way, funding DARE, with "Just Say No To Drugs" is an idiotic approach to convincing Americans of anything.

Our US Constitution is really free of dictating religious beliefs.

Ditto, no "king gives permission." It's just WE THE PEOPLE.

Pick a "Tom Dewey" to run in 2008. And, lick your wounds.

It's happened before.

I don't understand when people say that one side of the argument is government safe abortion and the other side of the argument is back alley abortion.

That's like saying that one side of the argument is surgical female genital circumcision, and the other side is back alley female genital mutilation.

What about "live with and deal with the healthy genital tissues and fetuses that exist?

I agree. Abortion ISN'T what drives people away in droves, in fact the majority of Americans actually DON'T support abortion on demand. That most people, or even most women, are out there as single issue voters when it comes to protecting abortion is just wrong. Oh, and what is worse, those who are single issue voters on KEEPING abortion, or those who are single issue voters AGAINST abortion? Kind of like the Southerners who were willing to go to war to KEEP slavery and the northerners who were willing to go to war to ABOLISH slavery. And sure there were plenty of other issues in the civil war, but for many on each side slavery was the core issue.

When Abortion became legal those practitioners of back alley abortions DIDN'T go away, they simply hung their sign out on main street and kept killing the babies, and profiting from frightened young women who in their time of tribulation felt they had no choice but to kill their child...but now the back alley butchers could kill with the blessing of the law, and the girls could come in the front door. Abortion is Legal, but it still isn't safe. Women still die, and from legal abortions. What's sick is that in the name of "privacy" abortion clinics are almost completely immune from repercussions when there's a botched abortion. Everything in the law protects not the woman, but the clinic under the guise of protecting the woman's privacy. Abortion clinics are less regulated than Tattoo parlors is some parts of the nation, and have far less accountability than ANY medical or para-medical business.

393 Ma Sands  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:15:30pm

to: kcladderman

Are you still around...? :)

394 Stuck-in-CA  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:16:40pm

re: #28 zombie

I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.

People aren't stupid. They know that electing Hillary would be a disaster in many more ways than their mild disagreements with Giuliani.

Then how can you explain the 2006 midterm elections? People ARE stupid, they ARE gullible and they HAVE been indoctrinated through the MSM, the universities and Hollywood. I think some misguided independents will vote Democrat on the hope they will FINALLY STOP THEIR INCESSANT WHINING!

395 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:17:20pm

Unsafe, clandestine abortions are a direct result of criminalizing abortion. Illegal abortions put women’s health at risk. Hygienic conditions are unregulated and people trained to protect the patient’s life, unavailable.

5000 women die each year as a result of complications from unsafe abortions in Latin America and the Caribbean. –more than 1/5 of all maternal deaths. On a global scale, complications from unsafe abortions result in 21% of all maternal deaths.

In 1996, the Panamerican Health Organization revealed that abortion is the primary cause of maternal death in Argentina, Chile, Guatemala, Panama, Paraguay and Peru. Abortion is the second leading cause of maternal mortality in Costa Rica, and the third in Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia Ecuador, El Salvador, Honduras, Mexico and Nicaragua.

Death is not the only consequence of unsafe, illegal abortions. Between 10% and 50% of all such abortions require medical attention for complications. Incomplete abortions, hemorrhaging, and infections are all risks stemming from abortions conducted in circumstances where the women’s health and life are unprotected.

13% of the approximately 600,000 pregnancy related deaths worldwide result from unsafe abortions, according the PHO.

The abortion mortality rate is 0.2-1.2 per 100,000 abortions in countries where abortion is legal.

The mortality rate in countries where abortion is penalized is 330 per 100,000.

20 million abortions are induced each year.

396 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:19:09pm

re: #379 DistantThunder

There are abortions done.

They were illegal. And, they were done in back alleys. Which led to what typically happens when there are unsanitary conditions. And, you've got to worry about the police arresting you, if you're the one performing abortions.

There's no such thing as NO ABORTIONS, either.

They're either LEGAL, as they are now, because of ROE, in every single state.

Or, if Roe gets overturned? The GOP is KAPUT.

The GOP has been a "straggler," because of this issue!

In the "hay day" of the GOP revolution, and I'm suing that term very loosely; the people who thought the party was all there's, called those they didn't like RINO's.

This led to a STALL. Where voters won't vote for either party; but tend, instead, to split tickets. So you get the comedians in congress, not able to do much of anything.

It's divisive.

Want this repaired?

Forget about making abortions illegal, again.

Would people vote in Hillary instead of a really conservative republican nominee? YES!

When the republican insiders pick turkeys, like Rick Lazio, Hillary WINS.

That's how she got INTO the senate, in the first place.

Rudy got a call from Pataki's henchmen, telling him to SCOOT.

Too bad, they're not making that call to Wide Stance, Larry.

But it's not easy being a politician. And, surviving the whims of the public that's out there.

Pandering doesn't help.

Unaffiliated means ... people have walked out of organizations. They don't belong. It's not their "union." And, they no longer pay dues.

Businesses don't thrive when customers walk.

Even if they seem to stay standing.

Anyway, there's no such thing as a world without ROE, without going back to what happened to the WHIGS.

Besides, the majority sways how the polls go.

The extremes, right and left, aren't gonna be what creates the winner in 2008.

Yes. After Bush. People want a real leader! They don't want some religious guy telling them what to believe. That's just not in the US Constitution.

Was there once a time religious zealots thought they'd get people to stop talking about legal abortions?

Well, isn't that up there with "Just Say No" to drugs.

Bad ideas get no respect.

397 Stuck-in-CA  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:22:04pm

re: #95 Ginn

Immigration reform was a laugh. As someone who grew up in the southwest the impact of the illegal aliens... not "immigrants" is an issue that needs/needed to be addressed. Many of those who are angry at the Republican party are angry of this single issue.

That would be ME.

398 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:25:36pm

re: #392 R.A.D. Dad

Please don't talk for "most Americans." Talk about yourself. That's what ONE VOTE means.

And, yes. There's evidence that the religious right, also known as the moral majority, have received pandering for 30 years. At least.

With Hillary ready to blaze her trail.

Right now, the "stickler" issue for those on the right, when seeing Rudy gaining ground as a contendah, is to think they can still get a candidate more to their way of thinking.

I think, not.

That's my opinion.

As to seeing the GOP make mistakes?

Hey, in 2000 ... with nothing better to do, Pataki swung his big dick and told Guiliani to get the hell out of the senate race.

And, then came Rick Lazio.

I guess there's a religious martyr's streak, where losing is everything, huh?

399 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:30:55pm

re: #394 Stuck-in-CA

2006 produced a rout, that woke a few republicans up.

At least people aren't discouraged.

It could be worse. You could see 2008 as a bloodbath.

Instead, even with Bush making every misstep possible, he can destroy his own reputation; but a lot of people are looking forward to the presidential election so they can vote.

By definition: A CHOICE.

To vote for the Democrat.

Or to vote for the Republican.

Stupid to think people will decide NOT to vote for the democrat, if she's a woman.

And, that's why people bother to counter the religious right; even in places they own.

Because it shows enough people dropping by that it isn't a "moral majority" choice, anymore.

You can also wait for history to deal with Bush and his crappy presidency.

He's just another handicap that needs to be dealt with. What a lucky man! What losers he got to run against, twice!

Well, perhaps it's even-Steven. Didn't Bubba get Bob Dole in '96?

Geez. Learn baby, learn.

400 ubercheesehead  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:33:02pm

re: #396 Carol Herman

I used to wonder; now I know.

401 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:37:19pm

re: #308 mama winger

By saying the UNAFFILIATED have walked out ... I am also saying calling them RINO's helped push them out the door.

I'm not saying YOU said that!

I'm saying that the UNAFFILIATED walked.

Oh, and there are LOTS OF THEM.

As a matter of fact, even when it comes to religion, these days, I know a lot of people who are UNAFFILIATED. They identify with a particular faith, when they are asked. No rabbi. No priest. No pastor. They just ARE.

402 realwest  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:39:18pm

This has been said in a variety of forms above, but I thought I could make it more clear:
As a Republican, Rudy won the Mayorship of OVERWHELMINGLY liberal, democrat, NYC.
AGAINST all the Powers That Be in NYC, especially the 100% Democratic legistlature (i.e., NYC City Council) and against the whim or will of most of the local Media, Rudy cleaned up NYC and made it SAFE for us to live in. His executive experience is unmatched by anyone else (including Mitt Romney) - governing a city of 8 Million people of dozens and dozens of immigrant backgrounds and again, against all the Liberal Democrats in positions of power, including the NY Congressional delegation, Rudy won election and re-election and made our city SAFE.
His actions on 9/11 and thereafter with regard to 9/11 are more than commendable, they are indeed a "profile in courage".
Presidents appoint judges who will decide (if it's ever gonna be reheard, Roe v. Wade) and he's said he'll appoint strict contructionists.
NO President has EVER come after American Citizens firearms, as all American Presidents have deemed gun control to be a State matter.
He has the Executive experience against a totally adverse legislative body and has won. Period.

403 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:41:05pm

re: #384 budvarakbar

All gypsies who predict the future, are charlatans. It can't be done. The future is unknown. And, everybody dies. You're born. You'll pay taxes. And, you die.

Anyway, I don't trust predictions.

404 Stuck-in-CA  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:45:08pm

re: #395 Salamantis

Unsafe, clandestine abortions are a direct result of criminalizing abortion. Illegal abortions put women’s health at risk. .

Abortion isn't my big issue. But honestly I don't care about the mortality rate of women getting abortions. Too many of them use abortion as their preferred birth control methods. They made their beds and their "choices". I am more sympathetic to the innocent babies who have no "choice". No amount of statistics and rationalizations is going to change my opinion about that.

That said, I am not willing to throw the election to the Socialists in order to punish the pro-choice Republicans. I would be satisfied it they would at least LIMIT abortion, which Rudy said he would work to do. Unfotunately that's not the only issue we differ on.

405 MigueldowninMexico  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:46:51pm

re: #360 NY Nana

Make no mistake. Terrorism and the cult of islams' threat to all of us who are not cult members, in the age of nuclear weapons, has to be what delineates a candidate who 'gets it'. Not one demonrat comes close, or seems to have a clue..Rudy is the man.


Terrorism is a threat to does in the cult too.
In the last fifty years TEN MILLION muslims have died victims of muslim terrorism.

406 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:47:02pm

re: #392 R.A.D. Dad

The "single issue" voters are demanding that ROE be overturned.

Only one party has this problem.

Heck, we had PROHIBITION in this country! Wasn't a success. Had to be repealed.

If the GOP tears ROE apart, what's gonna replace it? A police force? (Like the crap we have at airports?)

Or like the "drug" enforcers.

Guess what? We're wasting lots of taxpayer money, already, on stuff that doesn't work.

Ya know what? I'm 67 years old. But if I got pregnant, I wouldn't give ya a plug nickel to go through a pregnancy.

Hardly likely? Jewish women are the group that provides the dynamics for a "prince to be born." I'd tell Gabriel: TAKE IT BACK!

407 MigueldowninMexico  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:58:26pm

re: #377 NY Nana

re: #364 NJDhockeyfan

re: #365 Sharmuta

Thanks, both of you. NJD hockey fan, I assume that you are in NJ, and also have 9/11 burned into your brain.

Sadly, I would give anything if terrorism was not the issue, but it is, and will not go away, especially with our borders so open, and so many illegals still coming here unstopped. How many are terrorists? G-d help us.

Here is an excellent article on the Jewish stand on abortion. As a Jew, it is what I both follow and commend.

BBL...dinnertime.

Play nice!


According to your site there, some rabbis consider it one way, other rabbis consider it in a different way (abortion). That's the problem, like with islam, you get all of these divergent viewpoints, so you can not tell: "this is the Jewish position about it".
Being a Catholic makes this kind of thing a lot easier, as we have a common standard vis-a-vis faith and morals (beliefs and conduct).
:p

408 mama winger  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:58:44pm

re: #406 Carol Herman

You really need to go take a nap.

409 Stuck-in-CA  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 4:59:05pm

re: #399 Carol Herman

Stupid to think people will decide NOT to vote for the democrat, if she's a woman.
.

Sad to think most women will vote for a candidate just because she IS a woman. That would indicate a lazy and ill-informed voter...unfortunately for our side that's what most voters are.

410 right_wing2  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 5:00:54pm

Rudy's far from perfect, but I'd rather see him in office than the Hildabeast.

411 ubercheesehead  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 5:12:24pm

re: #408 mama winger

re: #406 Carol Herman

You really need to go take a nap.


Mama, I just don't think any nap is long enough to take care of this.

412 Ma Sands  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 5:19:22pm

re: #411 ubercheesehead

re: #408 mama winger

re: #406 Carol Herman

You really need to go take a nap.


Mama, I just don't think any nap is long enough to take care of this.


Something happened just recently, I think...I can recall reading her postings up until a few months ago...they were only once every few days, and followed a goodly, thoughtful train of thought on issues...

413 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 5:22:23pm

re: #72 shanec99

re: #57 IslandLibertarian

Which Island bro?

Oahu

414 ubercheesehead  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 5:30:44pm

re: #412 Ma Sands

re: #411 ubercheesehead


re: #408 mama winger

re: #406 Carol Herman

You really need to go take a nap.


Mama, I just don't think any nap is long enough to take care of this.

Something happened just recently, I think...I can recall reading her postings up until a few months ago...they were only once every few days, and followed a goodly, thoughtful train of thought on issues...

Alright, who are you and what have you done with the real Carol Herman?!? ;)

415 Stuck-in-CA  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 5:38:38pm

re: #413 IslandLibertarian

re: #72 shanec99


re: #57 IslandLibertarian

Which Island bro?


Oahu

Don't rub it in! LOL

416 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 5:40:16pm

re: #412 Ma Sands

I never even noticed her til about a week or 2 ago...unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

/But it feels looonger.

I feel pity for her son(s).

417 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 5:41:17pm
re: #57 IslandLibertarian

Would you use the same standard to judge Rudy's rivals in the race, especially his Democratic ones?

Absolutely. But I'm not judging Rudy for his past. It's not my job.
See my #46 post.
The Progressive Left (What an oxymoron that is!) is gunna' get us killed!

Power to the Correct People!

418 Praetyre  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 6:06:08pm

re: #375 DistantThunder

re: #370 Pro-Bush Canuck


re: #363 Praetyre
Perhaps I am wrong.
You are definitely wrong. And I don't think you're winning any friends comparing American evangelicals to Saudi fascists. That is deeply insulting to many people here, me included.

Who does drug use harm? Is that a joke? The foster care system is overflowing with collateral damage. Children develop empathy when their limbic systems resonate with love provided by the caretaker - Drugs completely impair and interrupt that process.

So does alcohol. So why don't we be consistent and ban tobacco (horrific for your child, bad for your lungs, addictive, polluting) and alcohol (even worse for your child, bad for your liver, addictive, leads to violence, leads to unsafe sex, leads to drunk driving)? Drug criminalization is the best thing that ever happened to organized crime, next to the Prohibition. It's a multi billion dollar industry that has even been used to fund terrorism, even IIRC Hamas terrorism in one area.

I don't want to insult evangelicals here, just some radical evangelicals positions.

re: #403 Carol Herman

re: #384 budvarakbar

All gypsies who predict the future, are charlatans. It can't be done. The future is unknown. And, everybody dies. You're born. You'll pay taxes. And, you die.

Anyway, I don't trust predictions.

Well, if you're born in the Cayman Islands..

On Topic:
Rudy and Fred should join into one ticket. They can capture most of the GOP market and at the same time combine their respective alternative media frenzy into a victory. It would be the Clinton/Obama of the right.

419 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 6:10:33pm

re: #409 Stuck-in-CA

I don't know how people are going to vote. I don't think it's a gender thing.

We don't even know who the candidates are. That's still out there; being debated.

But it would be a mistake to generalize about "all women." There ain't no such animal.

On the other hand, people vote their pocketbooks.

Hillary can lose a lot of working women voters, who don't want the "extraction tax methods" used by democrats.

And, then? You get people who take their ballots, and when they vote, they "split the tickets." Voting, let's say, for a republican president. And, for Democrats, elsewhere.

Not even sure if this is "new?" Or actually, old, in politics. Where you get a man from one party; and congress goes to the other. Sure did happen with Nixon!

It could mean the "top of the ticket" doesn't have coat-tails?

And, people are still campaigning to win "hearts and minds."

It's not up to one person, or one faction. The US Constitution, by dividing powers between three branches; always sought to toss the decision-making process out there, leaving it all to COMPROMISE.

Heck, in Tom DeLay's book, he sets out a wonderful example of doing this. When, he was in the House Leadership. And, in 1996, purposely went far-right ... to force Bill Clinton towards the center.

If you start out in the center? You have to give stuff up.

When you start out at an extreme? You've got all that many more chips.

Of course, and then came 1997. Impeachment. And, the impalement of some House members, in 1998's election, who did not return. Because they were republicans. And, they got voted "out." James Rogan, for this district, did. His involvement in Clinton's House Impeachment, led to the voters turning him OUT.

You know, I don't think 2008 is gonna be a cake walk.

420 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 6:15:03pm

re: #418 Praetyre

Not born in the Cayman's.

Don't believe in voodoo, either.

But when you wrote the ticket could be Rudy/Fred, with that I happen to agree. I already said the women would be called Judi & Jeri.

But I'm not predicting anything!

Just playing with the puzzle pieces on the table.

Don't even know if Rudy would pick Newt. At first I said "no." But then I realized that Newt's not one to write off. Just a different southern state. That's all.

When Lincoln ran, it was his rivals that did the heavy lifting on the campaign trail. Back in 1860. Lincoln shows ya that the top guy isn't afraid of those with talent.

Whatever happens, 2008 promises not to be dull.

421 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 6:19:18pm

re: #414 ubercheesehead

re: #412 Ma Sands

re: #411 ubercheesehead


re: #408 mama winger


re: #406 Carol Herman

You really need to go take a nap.


Mama, I just don't think any nap is long enough to take care of this.


Something happened just recently, I think...I can recall reading
her postings up until a few months ago...they were only once every
few days, and followed a goodly, thoughtful train of thought on
issues...

Alright, who are you and what have you done with the real Carol Herman?!? ;)

Stop bullying. It's behavior unbecoming of an adult.

You know, the issues presenting themselves for the 2008 campaign, are interesting enough; you don't really need to play childish games.

Now, if Charles wants to, he can post a "rule" that says posters can only post on stuff they agree with. But that would be his call.

I happen to like debate.

And, I'm not looking for a fan club. Thankyouverymuch.

422 Carol Herman  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 6:21:55pm

re: #416 NY Nana

re: #412 Ma Sands

I never even noticed her til about a week or 2 ago...unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

/But it feels looonger.

I feel pity for her son(s).

You're nuts. I've got a great kid!

423 ubercheesehead  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 6:33:19pm

re: #421 Carol Herman

Carol, what is happening here is not bullying. It's a wake up call to you that your posts vacillate between incomprehensible and bizarre. Do you preview anything you write? Go back and look at comment #406, the one that prompted everyone's reaction. It descended by the end into an incoherent rant.

This, BTW, does not seem to be all that unusual an occurrence for you. If you want to be humorous, remember, brevity is the soul of wit. If you want to debate ideas, try to present them in a coherent manner.

Sorry for the harsh tone, but when I bother to read your posts at all they usually leave me wondering what on earth you are talking about.

424 Live4Truth  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 6:48:26pm

re: #376 David IV of Georgia

war as begun.

A good friend of mine, he's now a priest, used to call them "Jesus Cookies".

I would hope that now as a priest, he no longer makes such references, and recognizes the trivializing nature of it.

And no, no war will break out -- not from me anyway. Nothing would be gained from that. I just think that it was a pointless insult to a large group of generally decent people. It's tough enough fighting for the survival of civilization, without having to deal with that too. And it reflects poorly on KT, who knows that it offends Catholics, and it wasn't the least bit necessary to make the point.

425 siiras  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 6:54:57pm

Anti-abortion purists who enable a Democrat victory by rejecting Guiliani and/or voting for some 3rd party candidate are going to get abortion in spades under Killary followed by the Islamic anti-abortion program because Dems will lose the country to the jihadis while looking under the bed for conservative bogeymen...

re Carol Herman - glad to hear it isn't just me who has trouble divining any coherent message in the posts under this moniker. They seem to be basically long tracts of free association. Random thoughts do not an argument make.

426 Stuck-in-CA  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 7:21:11pm

re: #425 siiras


re Carol Herman - glad to hear it isn't just me who has trouble divining any coherent message in the posts under this moniker. They seem to be basically long tracts of free association. Random thoughts do not an argument make.

James Joyce's stream of consciousness style is well beloved. Not MY cup of tea, but...

427 Sandi  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 7:32:26pm

Nope...I ain't buying it. I do not like Rudy. Romney gives me the same feeling I had with Clinton...a say anything to get elected type.

I am going with Fred.

I am a BIG supporter of the GOP. But this time around...if it ain't Fred...Huckabee...Hunter or Tencredo...I am not voting. Rudy is the worst...only the media wants him and Hillary match up. Rudy is a NYC thug. Romney is "Rich white guy Clinton" If it's not Fred...we will just hand the keys to the WH to the witch Hillary.

428 siiras  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 7:50:52pm

re: #426 Stuck-in-CA

re: #425 siiras


re Carol Herman - glad to hear it isn't just me who has trouble divining any coherent message in the posts under this moniker. They seem to be basically long tracts of free association. Random thoughts do not an argument make.

James Joyce's stream of consciousness style is well beloved. Not MY cup of tea, but...

You probably do CH too much credit by comparing her maunderings to a giant of literature but they say that few who own "Ulysses" (voted the greatest book in English literature on occasion) actually make it through to the end! I was one of the failures myself...

429 siiras  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 7:59:15pm

re: #427 Sandi

Nope...I ain't buying it. I do not like Rudy. Romney gives me the same feeling I had with Clinton...a say anything to get elected type.

I am going with Fred.

I am a BIG supporter of the GOP. But this time around...if it ain't Fred...Huckabee...Hunter or Tencredo...I am not voting. Rudy is the worst...only the media wants him and Hillary match up. Rudy is a NYC thug. Romney is "Rich white guy Clinton" If it's not Fred...we will just hand the keys to the WH to the witch Hillary.

Isn't this just cutting off your nose to spite your face?

Instead of accepting a Republican candidate who is imperfect, you plan to withold your vote and allow someone to win who's ten times worse and will destroy the nation? How is that different from a left-winger's fantasy that he can build what he wants out of rubble after blowtorching his own country?

430 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 8:16:03pm

re: #427 Sandi

To not vote is an act of supreme selfishness, and also wrong. No one candidate can be made to order. By staying home, throwing a tantrum, you are showing a very dangerous attitude post 9/11. Did you miss it, perhaps?

I only know that I will not vote demonrat, as they are as dangerous as your attitude.

There are Republicans that I just do not care for, but come the election, because of my kids and grandkids and their future, I will vote for the ticket. End of case.

431 Stuck-in-CA  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 8:37:02pm

re: #428 siiras


You probably do CH too much credit by comparing her maunderings to a giant of literature but they say that few who own "Ulysses" (voted the greatest book in English literature on occasion) actually make it through to the end! I was one of the failures myself...


I was just trying to be polite. CH sounds to me like she is bitter about something. There is that kind of edge in her writings. But I try not to get involved in the personal charges against fellow LGFers.

And I too did not make it through Ulysses either. Ugh...it was painful. And I think most people who claim to love Joyce are just being pretentious.

432 KayMichelle  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 8:40:39pm

re: #368 Q-Burn

re: #350 KayMichelle


There is more to Guiliani than just this.

It is his globalist ties that make me uncomfortable:


Bracewell & Giuliani LLP is a prominent international law firm. With more than 400 lawyers in Texas, New York, Washington DC, Connecticut, Dubai, Kazakhstan and London, we serve clients concentrated in the energy and financial services sectors worldwide.


[Link: www.bracewellgiuliani.com...]


He is also the attorney for the Spanish consortium that is buying the toll road for the North American Corridor. That will put out of work hundreds, perhaps thousands of truckers.

And how much do corporations save by having these offshore companies? Do they still pay taxes to the U.S.? I just wonder why they feel they need to protect the citizens of U.A.E.


More attention needs to be paid to this. The toll-road thing here in Texas is a complete travesty. Rick Perry and Rudy are in bed on this, selling out taxpayer-funded highways to private foreign interests. And don't get me started on the Trans-Texas Corridor. See any tfk rant on the Texas Republican money cult, it's all true.

Recently they improved the state highway that runs to the airport. Now, I just read that I will have to pay a toll to use this road unless I want to use a traffic-choked frontage road. I'll have to pay tribute to a private foreign company to get to the freakin' airport on time! To use a public Texas state highway I already paid for. Thank you Rick Perry and Rudy.

Then there's his work for Hugo Chavez' Citgo, the Mexican government etc. Maybe Rudy is just another internationalist.


Well I for one, am sick unto death of these politicians who are sold out to foreign interests. It should be illegal to sell out to other countries this way. Like Hitlery, we are expected to believe that Chinamen, directly off the boat, working as busboys in Chinatown, are giving large gifts to the Presidential campaign? It's a load of garbage.

I won't vote for him. No way. He is in bed with the same people who are selling our infrastructure out from under us.

Why are we so stupid that we let our politicians do this? What are we supposed to do if we don't want to pay $4 per day for a three mile road (which is what I have in my vicinity) ? This is robbery of the American people.

Rudy has offices in Dubai - the internationalists capital of the world.

433 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 8:41:06pm

re: #32 Thanos

re: #24 shiplord kirel


OT

I just talked to the Xanadoo people about their lame-ass internet setup and they suggested something called an "extension kit" to solve my connectivity problems (18 KbS). It only costs 59.95. What percentage of users do you suppose need this to get the promised broadband speeds from this idiotic system? Anyone want to bet it's 100%? I'm just 1700 feet from one of their towers, btw, and only a mile and a half from another one.


Is it wireless cdma or is it directional WIFI?


It's directional WIFI. It's also MBL, managed by Lubbockites, so naturally it is not going to work right.

This city has become almost universally dysfunctional during the past few years, from the absurd red light timing (2 minutes is a good average) to misplanned construction that that at one point completely shut down ALL access to communities west of here, it is a performance and functional disaster area.

It isn't just the public sector either, as the Xanadoo fiasco demonstrates. It took a local appliance store 5 days to deliver a new refrigerator to my house last week even though it was in stock when I made the purchase. I browbeat them every day about it but it was apparently easier for them to endure my tirades than it would have been to put the fridge on a truck and bring it here.

The absolute worst, though, was the property management company I had hired to take care of my rental house. The day after I got back to town, last Monday, the tenant was at my door at noon to tell me that his family had been without water since the preceding Thursday afternoon. A pipe had broken and the city utility had naturally come out and shut it off. The tenant was unable to reach the property manager that day or Friday. When he called the management office, they refused to hear his complaints and put him on the agent's voicemail. Like almost all Lubbock business people, the old bat never responds to phone messages of any kind.
I went to their offices and demanded the keys, which they refused to hand over on the grounds that they still had a contract with me and another with the tenant. I told them they were in default but they never did hand over the keys. I did send them a written trespass notice to keep what passes for their maintenance people out of the place, changed the locks, and got a plumber to fix the pipes. The property mis-management gang is making bubbling, hissing noises about suing me. The notion that it might have been easier to get the pipes fixed in a timely manner apparently did not occur to them.
I told them to bring it on.

434 KayMichelle  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 8:42:11pm

I agree with Sandi, it is Tancredo, Hunter, Huckabee or nobody.

435 siiras  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 8:47:02pm

re: #431 Stuck-in-CA

431 Stuck in Ca

I consider myself a polite sort as well and haven't said a word, just scrolling by the longer and noticeably more frequent postings by someone I could not understand. Until someone else brought up the subject today, I thought it was just me.

Gentle general suggestions that perhaps one is dominating the conversation too much when one's postings far outnumber anyone else's seem to have had no effect. There's more than one way of being impolite and one is to inflict your views whatever style they are written in, too often on someone else's site. No one is that worthwhile reading.

436 siiras  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 8:51:00pm

re: #434 KayMichelle

I agree with Sandi, it is Tancredo, Hunter, Huckabee or nobody.

Shouldn't that read "it is Tancredo, Hunter, Huckabee or Hillary?"

437 Syrah  Sat, Oct 20, 2007 8:59:11pm

re: #28 zombie

I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.

People aren't stupid. They know that electing Hillary would be a disaster in many more ways than their mild disagreements with Giuliani.

If Rudy gets the nod, Rudy gets my vote.

438 Sandi  Sun, Oct 21, 2007 12:08:08am

re: #436 siiras

It's us womens points of view...Rudy is not the right guy...if you want Hillary to lose put up a Reagan Republican not a womanizing New Yorker.

Who would you rather have a drink and dinner with Fred, Duncan, Tancredo, Huckabee or Rudy? I say all but Rudy...he is not us. He is not likable...Ya want the woman vote...then do not nominate Rudy.

439 KayMichelle  Sun, Oct 21, 2007 10:09:12am

re: #437 Syrah

re: #28 zombie


I guarantee that, on November 2, 2008, when they're standing in the ballot box staring at a choice between socialistic Hillary Clinton and honest Rudy Giuliani, every single old-school conservative will punch the chad for Giuliani. No question about it.

People aren't stupid. They know that electing Hillary would be a disaster in many more ways than their mild disagreements with Giuliani.


If Rudy gets the nod, Rudy gets my vote.


Rudy is a Republicrat, just like Arnold Schwarzenegger. He will turn into a Democrat the moment he gets into office.

Arnold is trying to push through a health care plan very similar to Hillary's - except that he will cover illegal aliens, unlike the Rodham plan.

He has just signed into law an anti-discrimination pro-gay and transsexual bill for public schools, that make illegal the terms, "Mom and Dad". (it may offend gays).

Arnold has also promised driver's licenses for illegal aliens, which is the principle reason Gray Davis was recalled as Governor. The second issue for the recall was a car registration tax, which is also on Ahhnold's list of priorities.

A Republican is a Republican and accepts the party platform. If they consider themselves social liberal, forget it, it is a rejection of the social and/or fiscal conservatism that is essential part of who the candidate is and what he/she stands for.

If they cannot stand for the platform, then the social liberal/neo-Republicans should start a third party instead. If they don't, then the conservatives will.


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