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'Mixed Verdicts' in HLF Trial

Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 8:34:19 am PDT

News from the Holy Land Foundation trial in Dallas, where it appears that the “soft jihad” may have won a partial victory: Holy Land Foundation defendants face mixed verdicts.

The jury in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial was unable to reach unanimous decisions on three of the six defendants, U.S. District Judge Joe Fish said Monday as he unsealed their verdicts.

On two others, they were able to reach unanimous decisions on some of the counts. And on only one defendant were they able to reach unanimous decisions on all counts.

The judge is now beginning to announce the jury’s verdict on each defendant. In all, the jury must make 197 decisions on guilt or innocence this morning.

UPDATE at 10/22/07 8:37:00 am:

A reader in Dallas has more details:

2 defendants NOT GUILTY on all counts
One defendant GUILTY on 30 of 32 counts
2 defendants the jury could not come to agreement so no verdict

UPDATE at 10/22/07 8:44:47 am:

More information from the Holy Land trial blog at WFAA.com: Charity chairman found not guilty.

10:31 a.m. — The jury in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial was unable to reach unanimous decisions on most of the defendants including the Holy Land Foundation itself, U.S. District Judge Joe Fish said Monday. He ordered them back to the jury room to discuss whether further deliberations might allow them to reach a decision. If not, he is likely to declare a hung jury on many counts in the complex case.

In all, the jury was asked to make 197 decisions on guilt or innocence. One official — Mufid Abdulqader, a top Holy Land fundraiser and former Dallas public works supervisor — was found not guilty on all counts. Two other officials — Mohammad El-Mezain, the Holy Land’s original chairman and endowments director, and Abdulrahman Odeh, the foundation’s New Jersey representative, were acquitted on most of the charges. The jury was hung on the others.

But when polled, three jurors told the judge that they did not agree with the verdicts, prompting the judge to send them back to the jury room. “Your verdict must be unanimous and it’s apparent to me from the answers of three members of the jury in respect to my question that the verdicts that I read earlier do not rep the unanimous view of the jury,” Judge Fish said.

UPDATE at 10/22/07 9:01:18 am:

Lawhawk looks at the verdicts—or to be more correct, the lack of verdicts: Hung Jury in Holy Land Foundation Terror Financing Trial.

The possibility of Judge Fish calling a mistrial is quite high, and that would favor the prosecution. Such a decision would grant the prosecution the ability to retry the case. In all likelyhood, they would streamline the case and reduce the counts involved. While that might mean lesser sentences, it might also result in the jury coming to a unanimous decision - guilty verdicts.

Another possibility is that depending on how the jury polled on individual counts, the prosecutors might attempt to offer plea deals to the defendants (say that the jury polled 10-2 or 11-1 guilty on a count). Similarly, the defense might opt to take their chances if they were found not guilty by a similar margin.

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177 comments

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1 Pent.  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:34:45am

Sigh. It's hard to stay positive in a world such as this.

2 Rogue198  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:35:40am

Is this a yay or boo moment?

yaboo?

3 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:35:52am

Waiting for more info.

4 eLoser  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:35:58am

troubling...deeply troubling

5 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:36:00am

I wonder which one was found guilty of 30 of 32 counts? Guess it will take awhile to find out. Sounds like the elephant was too big for the jury to handle. That is a lot of verdicts to render.

6 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:36:00am

If they don't decide, send them back inside.

/channeling Johnnie Cochran

7 MandyManners  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:36:07am

197? That's a lot. I applaud anyone who could sit through that for ages and ages.

8 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:36:32am

Fox News is covering it now.

9 winston06  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:36:41am

This ain't good news

10 Golem Akbar  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:37:12am

On the plus side (we've got to stay positive), it only takes one. But yes, the govenment evidently did a lousy job prosecuting these guys.

11 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:37:26am

Charles, I had read that the Feds were doing a lousy job presenting the evidence and building a case. This was from Rod Dreher at one of his blogs (can't remember which).

12 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:37:50am

Question asked but answer is unknown.
Will the funds for these groups have to be released or returned?

13 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:37:51am

Or maybe it's part of a government backed pogrom?

14 Sharmuta  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:38:15am
In all, the jury must make 197 decisions on guilt or innocence this morning.

That's sadly more thinking then most groups of people like to do.

15 eLoser  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:38:16am
In all, the jury must make 197 decisions on guilt or innocence this morning.

this are sarious journalism

can't wait to hear the foreman declare the accused as "innocent"

16 looking closely  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:38:23am

Any conviction here is a good thing, and one of 30/32 counts sounds pretty strong.

17 galloping granny  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:38:25am

re: #5 Just_A_Grunt

I wonder which one was found guilty of 30 of 32 counts? Guess it will take awhile to find out. Sounds like the elephant was too big for the jury to handle. That is a lot of verdicts to render.

None of them according to what Fox just reported. Most charges against all the defendants were not guilty, no jury verdict on the rest of the charges.

18 americanpundit  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:38:33am

I can't really say I'm surprised, though. It's not that I think they're innocent (I don't), but I didn't really expect the jury to convict. Don't know why. Just didn't.

19 MattMacD  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:38:54am

Depressing. :(

20 nigella  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:39:08am

Well Rogue it depends. Some it seems were found not guilty, and the Holy Land Foundation seems to be found not guilty of being affiliated with terrorism. That part is bad, but because we know they are they will be under much scrutiny.Won't be able to operate quite as easily I would think. Hard to understand the verdicts right now so will have to reserve judgement on importance.

21 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:39:41am

re: #17 galloping granny

re: #5 Just_A_Grunt

I wonder which one was found guilty of 30 of 32 counts? Guess it will take awhile to find out. Sounds like the elephant was too big for the jury to handle. That is a lot of verdicts to render.

None of them according to what Fox just reported. Most charges against all the defendants were not guilty, no jury verdict on the rest of the charges.

In the previous thread there was a post oulining the verdicts in general and that is where I am getting that from.

22 Golem Akbar  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:40:25am

re: #16 looking closely

Any conviction here is a good thing, and one of 30/32 counts sounds pretty strong.

Any conviction is proof that something is going on. Even if the others get off free, it shows that the government is watching. Not perfect, but some kind of justice is being served.

23 galloping granny  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:40:40am

re: #20 nigella

Well Rogue it depends. Some it seems were found not guilty, and the Holy Land Foundation seems to be found not guilty of being affiliated with terrorism. That part is bad, but because we know they are they will be under much scrutiny.Won't be able to operate quite as easily I would think. Hard to understand the verdicts right now so will have to reserve judgement on importance.

No they won't. Anybody makes the first half-attempt to scrutinize squat and they'll run to court screaming that they are being hounded & harrassed, after which they will walk out with a restraining order. They just won the whole ball of wax. Can't be prosecuted again, either.

24 zombie  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:41:20am
A reader in Dallas has more details:

2 defendants NOT GUILTY on all counts
One defendant GUILTY on 30 of 32 counts
2 defendants the jury could not come to agreement so no verdict

What happens with those last two defendants? They couldn't passibly do a re-trial, could they?

So they simply walk?

25 Cap'n DOC  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:41:20am

re: #17 galloping granny

On two others, they were able to reach unanimous decisions on some of the counts — including those charges against Mohammad El-Mezain, the original chairman of what was once the largest Muslim charity in the U.S. On only one defendant were they able to reach unanimous decisions on all counts.

A quote from the link. That doesn't sound like they 'got off' to me, but then that's just me.

26 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:41:30am
27 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:41:37am

Look for Rod Dreher to have a post about this at his Beliefnet blog later today (he posted about the non-announcement on Thursday). He may have some good insight.

28 MandyManners  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:41:57am

re: #20 nigella

I hope the IRS keeps a probe stuck up the foundation's ass.

29 Dead Sea Squirrel  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:42:37am

Both sides are going to claim a partial victory, a partial defeat. It's still early, of course, but right now it looks like a wash to me in the GWOT.

Maybe even that's too optimistic.

30 nigella  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:42:58am

Well Granny that sucks. However there is a lot going on underneath the radar that we don't know. Me thinks we will be able to keep a pretty good eye on them, and I also think they wouldn't want to be too brazen about their dealings. Can't guarantee this, just a gut feeling.

31 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:43:00am

re: #18 americanpundit

I can't really say I'm surprised, though. It's not that I think they're innocent (I don't), but I didn't really expect the jury to convict. Don't know why. Just didn't.

Read my #11; I had that feeling, too.

32 littleoldlady  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:43:02am

Not good. Not good at all. :-(

/what did the government do? send in the 3rd string lawyers?

33 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:43:02am

it was a "white collar crime" type of case, typically with alot of documentation, nothing but papers and numbers. it must have been an absolute cure for insomnia each day.

bad news all around, IMO.

34 MandyManners  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:43:03am

re: #23 galloping granny

Can't put an RO against the IRS.

35 loppyd  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:43:21am

re: #24 zombie

A reader in Dallas has more details:2 defendants NOT GUILTY on all counts
One defendant GUILTY on 30 of 32 counts
2 defendants the jury could not come to agreement so no verdict

What happens with those last two defendants? They couldn't passibly do a re-trial, could they?

So they simply walk?


If the jury was hung, the govt. can retry them.

36 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:44:11am

Well it looks like the Islamo Fascism Awareness Week is off to a good start.
/sarc

37 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:44:13am

re: #24 zombie

they can be re-tried on counts where the jury hung.

38 americanpundit  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:44:29am

Dallas Morning News writes:

The jury in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial was unable to reach unanimous decisions on most of the defendants including the Holy Land Foundation itself, U.S. District Judge Joe Fish said Monday. He ordered them back to the jury room to discuss whether further deliberations might allow them to reach a decision. If not, he is likely to declare a hung jury on many counts in the complex case...

One official — Mufid Abdulqader, a top Holy Land fundraiser and former Dallas public works supervisor — was found not guilty on all counts. Two other officials — Mohammad El-Mezain, the Holy Land’s original chairman and endowments director, and Abdulrahman Odeh, the foundation’s New Jersey representative, were acquitted on most of the charges. The jury was hung on the others. But when polled, three jurors told the judge that they did not agree with the verdicts, prompting the judge to send them back to the jury room. “Your verdict must be unanimous and it’s apparent to me from the answers of three members of the jury in respect to my question that the verdicts that I read earlier do not rep the unanimous view of the jury,” Judge Fish said.

39 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:44:30am

mr. hitler was found "somewhat guilty" but Goebbels walked free and Ribbentrop was found guilty.

The West is in a maze, Theseus needed.

40 KingKenrod  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:44:35am

The entire Islamic charity system is set up for plausible deniability on the givers part - the same organization that supplies "social services" is also buying guns and paying bounties to suicide bombers' families. Getting convictions will be very hard unless you can flip someone on the inside or someone slips up (which is what happened here).

But it looks like we got a key guy here - 30 of 32 counts is pretty damning.

41 Hard Right  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:45:03am

Soooooo, too much for an idiot jury to handle while the prosecutors bungled the case.
the IFs are laughing their asses off right now.

42 loppyd  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:45:48am

Update:


The jury in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial was unable to reach unanimous decisions on most of the defendants including the Holy Land Foundation itself, U.S. District Judge Joe Fish said Monday.

He ordered them back to the jury room to discuss whether further deliberations might allow them to reach a decision. If not, he is likely to declare a hung jury on many counts in the complex case. In all, the jury was asked to make 197 decisions on guilt or innocence.

43 marwan's daughter  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:46:05am

Sigh. Guess I should hold back on my initial plans to mail bottles of champagne to the Investigative Project.

44 DeafDog  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:46:30am

re: #18 americanpundit

I can't really say I'm surprised, though. It's not that I think they're innocent (I don't), but I didn't really expect the jury to convict. Don't know why. Just didn't.

If it was a california jury, I would tend to agree with you. Since it was a Texas jury, however, I want to know a bit more before I call it a sign of the times. It could be that the two found innocent had good cause for their verdict. Maybe the guilty guy was named to fall on the knife for everyone's sins.

45 insanity police  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:46:33am

Darn.

46 galloping granny  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:46:57am

re: #25 Cap'n DOC

re: #17 galloping granny

On two others, they were able to reach unanimous decisions on some of the counts — including those charges against Mohammad El-Mezain, the original chairman of what was once the largest Muslim charity in the U.S. On only one defendant were they able to reach unanimous decisions on all counts.

A quote from the link. That doesn't sound like they 'got off' to me, but then that's just me.

Not guilty 12-0 carries exactly the same weight as Not guilty 10-2.

47 realwest  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:48:17am

OT - CHARLES - are you okay re: the fires? It appears on the DT that at least two lizards are in imminent personal danger with no way out.
What's going on out there?

48 galloping granny  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:48:34am

re: #38 americanpundit

Dallas Morning News writes:

The jury in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial was unable to reach unanimous decisions on most of the defendants including the Holy Land Foundation itself, U.S. District Judge Joe Fish said Monday. He ordered them back to the jury room to discuss whether further deliberations might allow them to reach a decision. If not, he is likely to declare a hung jury on many counts in the complex case...

One official — Mufid Abdulqader, a top Holy Land fundraiser and former Dallas public works supervisor — was found not guilty on all counts. Two other officials — Mohammad El-Mezain, the Holy Land’s original chairman and endowments director, and Abdulrahman Odeh, the foundation’s New Jersey representative, were acquitted on most of the charges. The jury was hung on the others. But when polled, three jurors told the judge that they did not agree with the verdicts, prompting the judge to send them back to the jury room. “Your verdict must be unanimous and it’s apparent to me from the answers of three members of the jury in respect to my question that the verdicts that I read earlier do not rep the unanimous view of the jury,” Judge Fish said.


Now that is good news. A hung jury allows for a do-over.

49 vxbush  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:48:58am

re: #46 galloping granny

But don't the votes have to be unanimous? They were when I served on juries.

50 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:49:06am

Could they be charged in a separate Sharia court trial?

51 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:49:09am

I suspect that some of the problems with the verdicts stems from the issues during deliberations when the judge was forced to provide an Allen charge - someone wasn't deliberating per the jury charge. That might explain why there were so many charges that resulted in less than unanimous decisions. The sheer number of charges and complexity of the case also plays a role.

It will also mean that the prosecutors will likely seek a retrial on many of those charges - or perhaps reduce the number of charges to streamline the case to get a guilty verdict the next time.

It's a mixed bag alright, but until we see a full breakdown, I'm not sure - besides, the Dallas reader only accounts for 5 of the defendants (there are six total).

52 SaracensAtTheGates  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:49:15am

The world is at war and only the aggressors seem to be aware of that fact. These people are not committing crimes, they are engaged in acts of war. Instead of writs of habeas corpus, search warrants, jury deliberations and 5th Amendment rights, we should be talking about which Geneva Conventions should apply.

53 nolocon  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:49:42am

Hung jury counts can be re-tried.

Political pressure will be influential in whether that occurs.

54 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:49:55am

Unless the prosecutors could provide flow charts substituting common names for all the Middle Eastern sounding names the jurors probably got lost and just started zoning out. Americans need graphic aids to help them grasp complex situations like money laundering and multiple layer scams.
I am afraid that is where this will lead.

55 The Albatross  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:50:03am

"'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds." ~~Malaclypse the Younger, Discordia: Hail the Goddess of Chaos and Confusion

56 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:50:37am

I want a new thread.

57 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:50:46am

re: #50 Ben Hur

Could they be charged in a separate Sharia court trial?

Aloha snackbar, YES !

And the final verdict will be : GUILTY.
The judge will be found guilty. And the jurors.

58 nigella  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:50:52am

Thanks lawhawk for clarifying some of this for me. I know nothing about law, so this helps. Don't want to go all hysterical without the facts.

59 marwan's daughter  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:51:09am

I feel like pulling a Kanye West backstage temper tantrum. I'll be surprised if the jurors go back into the jury room and come back with a unanimous guilty verdict.

60 Charles  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:51:12am

re: #47 realwest

OT - CHARLES - are you okay re: the fires? It appears on the DT that at least two lizards are in imminent personal danger with no way out.
What's going on out there?

I'm not in any danger from the fires...

61 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:51:12am

re: #56 Ben Hur

I want a new thread.

I want a new world.

62 nolocon  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:52:22am

SENTENCING PHASE:

Each guilty defendant will be forced to PROMISE that he will not raise money for illegal Jihads ever again.

63 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:52:34am

re: #61 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #56 Ben Hur


I want a new thread.

I want a new world.

You're in it, Inshallah.

64 Sharmuta  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:52:47am

re: #51 lawhawk

What are the conviction rates like on re-trials? Isn't the defense privy to the prosecution's case already, and stands a better chance at getting their clients off? Or do you think this jury quagmire has more to to with the complexity, like your post referred to, and a re-trial would fair better?

65 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:53:08am

If there's a hung jury later on the last two, the Feds will have to do a much better job making their case during a retrial.

66 americanpundit  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:53:22am

Another, though not major, update:

The jury in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial was unable to reach unanimous decisions on most of the defendants including the Holy Land Foundation itself, U.S. District Judge Joe Fish said Monday.

He ordered them back to the jury room to discuss whether further deliberations might allow them to reach a decision. If not, he is likely to declare a hung jury on many counts in the complex case. In all, the jury was asked to make 197 decisions on guilt or innocence.

I wonder what "many counts" means.

67 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:53:24am

Friggin Texans.

68 The Other Les  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:54:30am

re: #60 Charles

re: #47 realwest

OT - CHARLES - are you okay re: the fires? It appears on the DT that at least two lizards are in imminent personal danger with no way out.
What's going on out there?

I'm not in any danger from the fires...

You know, if someone raises the question again you should put up an "I'm okay" thread.

69 MandyManners  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:54:36am

How many trials has the government won guilty verdicts?

70 DeafDog  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:54:42am

re: #67 Ben Hur

Friggin Texans.

We shoulda had judge Roy Bean on the case

71 The Other Les  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:55:06am

re: #61 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #56 Ben Hur

I want a new thread.

I want a new world.

I'll be happy to just reboot my life.

72 opinionated  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:55:06am

As Islamics are getting more violent, Americans are getting dumber.

Future looks bleak.

73 opnion  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:55:12am

re: #24 zombie

A reader in Dallas has more details:
2 defendants NOT GUILTY on all counts
One defendant GUILTY on 30 of 32 counts
2 defendants the jury could not come to agreement so no verdict

What happens with those last two defendants? They couldn't passibly do a re-trial, could they?

So they simply walk?

Not necessarily. If they were acquitted , then you could not subject them to double jeopardy. In this case the jury could not reach a verdict.
Therefore the government can retry them if it chooses

74 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:55:24am

re: #67 Ben Hur

Friggin Texans.

Hey, don't blame me. If this had been in state district court, they'd all be waiting for sentencing. I blame it on the Feds.

75 The Other Les  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:56:31am

re: #62 nolocon

SENTENCING PHASE:

Each guilty defendant will be forced to PROMISE that he will not raise money for illegal Jihads ever again.

They will only raise money for legal jihads.

Of course all jihads are legal under Sharia...

76 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:57:07am

More thoughts on the verdicts (or really the lack thereof).

77 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:57:37am

They might be hung, but they've got no balls.

78 Charles  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:58:27am

From the latest update, it sounds like the acquittal may also be in doubt.

79 The Other Les  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:58:52am

re: #77 Ben Hur

They might be hung, but they've got no balls.

John Holmes was well hung...

80 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:58:53am

OT: Sen. Rick Santorum has them seething in Pa...

Santorum’s speech on Muslims sparks anger

Ten months after leaving office, former Sen. Rick Santorum is back in the thick of controversy over whether he and other conservatives’ “hate speech” is stirring up anti-Muslim sentiments.

Santorum is headlining an event on the campus of Penn State University Tuesday night that is part of a controversial line-up of conservative speakers in Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week.

Commentator Ann Coulter also is scheduled to speak at campuses in California and Louisiana. The talks are part of a series of events at more than 100 colleges being organized by the Los Angeles-based David Horowitz Freedom Center.

But while Santorum and sponsors of the events say the purpose is to raise awareness about the dangers posed by radicals, critics claim the talks are promoting “hate speech’’ against Muslims.

You have to describe the enemy as who they are,” Santorum said in an interview Friday. “They’re not Irish Catholics, they’re not Ukrainian Orthodox. They are who they are and their faith is integral as to why they are doing what they are doing.

“If I were a Muslim on a college campus,’’ Santorum said, “I would embrace this movement to show that what we’re talking about here is a group of Muslims that is not me.”

81 Dead Sea Squirrel  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:58:59am

On whether or not to retry. Just use common sense: if the government lawyers know what they did wrong, they'll probably retry and not repeat the error. If they feel that they couldn't have done better, but that the defense exploited a fatally weak spot in their case that can't be corrected, then they probably won't.

82 Tenacious  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 8:59:28am

When all is said and done, I'll want to know the voting record/political stance of the 1-3 jurors who disagreed with some of the guilty verdicts. Isn't it possible for Bush Derangement Syndrome or politically correct thinking to permeate our justice system? Couldn't a dhimmi HIJACK a trial?

83 Golem Akbar  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:00:26am

re: #68 The Other Les

You know, if someone raises the question again you should put up an "I'm okay" thread.

I'm okay (you're so-so -- old joke). Living in L.A. has it's hazards. Lots of liberals/lefties; lots of freeways; eh, it's not so bad, really. But almost every year we get a hot and dry fall and the fires start right up. I live in the San Fernando Valley. We are surrounded by hills and usually get a close-up look on the biggest fires. [sigh]

84 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:00:31am

re: #67 Ben Hur

Friggin Texans.

Not all Texans, fella.

It's Dallas/FT. Worth. Went blue last election, so I'm not shocked. After all the Michael Moore's and such have had plenty of time to dumb down the average American.

This will get huge headlines, whereas a complete victory would have gotten page 15 in the Grey Whore or a mention on the crawl of FNC.

85 BabbaZee  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:00:32am
'Mixed Verdicts' in HLF Trial

The Nihilist Chief of Amoral Lukewarmitude called,
the correct term is now
Biverdictuals.

lol

86 jcm  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:00:54am

re: #52 SaracensAtTheGates

The world is at war and only the aggressors seem to be aware of that fact. These people are not committing crimes, they are engaged in acts of war. Instead of writs of habeas corpus, search warrants, jury deliberations and 5th Amendment rights, we should be talking about which Geneva Conventions should apply.

DING DING DING

In our current mindset we wait for the crime to be committed, or at best the conspiracy to busted.

It's a war.

What are we going to say when the crime scene is a smokin' hole a mile across?

87 BrianA  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:00:58am

Looks to me like the judge isn't going to let the jury off the hook. I'll bet he declares a mistrial.

88 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:02:34am

re: #78 Charles

From the latest update, it sounds like the acquittal may also be in doubt.

It's pretty complicated, and it will take awhile to digest it all.

89 Catttt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:03:40am

Not unanimous? What the heck?

90 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:03:41am

In a trial such as this, even one 'not guilty' is a failure of the US Government prosecutors...

Glad you are ok Charles...

Who is the other Lizard beside doriangray who is in trouble?

91 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:03:47am

IMO these jihadis should have been tried separately. Too many defendants in one trial caused information overload for the jury. Nevermind, they will be back in court again one day.

92 americanpundit  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:04:09am

The judge is a Reagan appointee.

93 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:04:13am

re: #82 Tenacious

Isn't it possible for Bush Derangement Syndrome or politically correct thinking to permeate our justice system? Couldn't a dhimmi HIJACK a trial?

Of course one could and that's why we can't face this problem with the usual answers.
But, after decades of muslim attacks, invasion and worlwide war against Freedom...we haven't yet started THINKING about what a Free society must do to remain Free AND defeat the muslim imperialists.

94 realwest  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:04:14am

re: #60 Charles Thanks Charles - do you know where the hell "Ramona" is? LGFer "dorian" has said he's trapped there and can't get out and can't reach emergency personnel.

95 mickthemick  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:04:50am

I am going to remain optimistic that the HLF will gain confidence from this and will foul up again to the point where there will be a stronger case against them, and the organization will be shut down, and its leaders incarcerated.

I only hope that more Israelis (or Americans) aren't murdered in the meantime by Islamic "charity."

96 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:05:04am

re: #7 MandyManners

197? That's a lot. I applaud anyone who could sit through that for ages and ages.

I suspect this is part of the problem. With 197 decisions to make, this trial and any evidence presented must have been very complicated. Also, any evidence re: money and how it's moved around would also, it seems to me, be very complicated.

97 The Other Les  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:05:18am

re: #86 jcm

re: #52 SaracensAtTheGates

The world is at war and only the aggressors seem to be aware of that fact. These people are not committing crimes, they are engaged in acts of war. Instead of writs of habeas corpus, search warrants, jury deliberations and 5th Amendment rights, we should be talking about which Geneva Conventions should apply.

DING DING DING

In our current mindset we wait for the crime to be committed, or at best the conspiracy to busted.

It's a war.

What are we going to say when the crime scene is a smokin' hole a mile across?

That Islam will be a religion practiced only in Hell.

Or [deleted].

98 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:05:18am

re: #94 realwest

re: #60 Charles Thanks Charles - do you know where the hell "Ramona" is? LGFer "dorian" has said he's trapped there and can't get out and can't reach emergency personnel.

OMG!

99 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:05:49am

re: #85 BabbaZee

'Mixed Verdicts' in HLF Trial

The Nihilist Chief of Amoral Lukewarmitude called,
the correct term is now
Biverdictuals.

lol

We,,. yes and no.

/ducking...

100 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:06:08am

re: #94 realwest

re: #60 Charles Thanks Charles - do you know where the hell "Ramona" is? LGFer "dorian" has said he's trapped there and can't get out and can't reach emergency personnel.

Furhter in the thread there was a post where they sent a bus in and doraingrey was able to get out. The other lizard I believe is freetoken.

101 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:06:46am

re: #47 realwest

OT - CHARLES - are you okay re: the fires? It appears on the DT that at least two lizards are in imminent personal danger with no way out.
What's going on out there?


I sure hope not buddy.. if fire is coming your way GETOUT.

102 zombie  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:06:57am

Totally OT, and feel free to scroll past if you're focused on the trial verdicts:

Just thought I'd drop in to post an insight into the leftist mind. This comes from Santa Cruz Indymedia -- note the key bold section at the end:

Pussies for Peace demonstrating October 27th

Come stand up against the war on October 27...we have rented the Mexican Bus out of San Francisco and are going to leave from the County Building in Santa Cruz on Ocean Street at 9am...we call ourselves "Pussies for Peace" and wear orange and pink...on the way up we practice chants, do make up, and eat lunch...when we get there we have 1,000 stickers to distribute that say "Vote with your Feet....March on the Street"....we leave SF at 4pm....there is vegan chocolate cake on the way home from Black China Bakery...we get back to Santa Cruz around 6pm....alll genders and ages welcome...last time the bus was 1/3 children

103 Spiny Norman  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:07:38am

re: #94 realwest

re: #60 Charles Thanks Charles - do you know where the hell "Ramona" is? LGFer "dorian" has said he's trapped there and can't get out and can't reach emergency personnel.

Ramona is in San Diego County, about 100 miles SE of LA. They had a really bad fire go through there 4 years ago, too.

104 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:07:39am

re: #94 realwest

re: #60 Charles Thanks Charles - do you know where the hell "Ramona" is? LGFer "dorian" has said he's trapped there and can't get out and can't reach emergency personnel.

Romona is in San Diego county

105 LC LaWedgie  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:07:45am
The verdict left government officials stunned and dissension among the jurors, NBC 5 reported.

The three defendants cleared are Holy Land's former chief executive Mohammed El-Mezain; the group's New Jersey representative, Abdulrahman Odeh; and fundraiser Mufid Abdulqader

No verdicts were issued against Shukri Abu Baker or former chairmen Ghassan Elashi.

106 find your violent jihadi on ebay!  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:07:57am

well, lesson learned....the Soft Jihad is going to be a lot harder to beat than by going to court, and trying to convince multiculturally mind-numbed jurors who've been spoon-fed "religon of peace" for six years, to shut it down with guitly verdicts.

107 realwest  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:08:00am

re: #100 Just_A_Grunt I'm releived to hear that, but the last post I saw by dorian was that the bus didn't show up.
Where is freetoken located do you know?

108 The Other Les  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:08:14am

re: #102 zombie

Pardon me while I puke.

109 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:09:03am

re: #102 zombie


Where do you think childred come from?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
just kidding.

back to work.

111 Spiny Norman  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:09:18am

re: #102 zombie

Malignant narcissists using kids as props. Lovely.

112 realwest  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:09:43am

re: #103 Spiny Norman

re: #104 Dustoff-507
Thanks to each of you - Dustoff - given you're occupation, is there anyway to find out what communties are "surrounded" and folks can't get out?

113 galloping granny  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:09:49am

re: #68 The Other Les

re: #60 Charles

re: #47 realwest

OT - CHARLES - are you okay re: the fires? It appears on the DT that at least two lizards are in imminent personal danger with no way out.
What's going on out there?

I'm not in any danger from the fires...

You know, if someone raises the question again you should put up an "I'm okay" thread.

Good idea. We do have other lizards who are in danger and at least one who appears to be trapped.

114 The Other Les  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:11:12am

re: #111 Spiny Norman

re: #102 zombie

Malignant narcissists using kids as props. Lovely.

Well, there was the Hitler Jugend and there was the Young Pioneers in Soviet Russia.

115 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:11:13am

re: #107 realwest

re: #100 Just_A_Grunt I'm releived to hear that, but the last post I saw by dorian was that the bus didn't show up.
Where is freetoken located do you know?

No I was just scanning the DT. I didn't see the post about the bus not showing up. The one I saw dorian posted that the bus was there and he had to go.

116 DanThePainter  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:11:38am

Flashback: July

Fear whittling jury pool in terror financing trial

Three potential jurors in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism financing trial were sent home Monday after each said they were afraid their service might put them or their families in danger.

"Sounds like some pretty serious charges to me," said one man, moments after he was told why he was asked to show up at the federal courthouse. "I don't feel comfortable. ... This ain't like a parking ticket."

"Would the fear of retaliation affect the way you looked at the case?" defense attorney Greg Westfall asked.

"Yes," the man said.

117 galloping granny  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:12:01am

re: #100 Just_A_Grunt

re: #94 realwest

re: #60 Charles Thanks Charles - do you know where the hell "Ramona" is? LGFer "dorian" has said he's trapped there and can't get out and can't reach emergency personnel.

Furhter in the thread there was a post where they sent a bus in and doraingrey was able to get out. The other lizard I believe is freetoken.

Dorian did not get out. He posted about it to me last night and then again this morning. Got to the bus, they waited a couple of hours and then the bus was canceled. currently we have not heard from him in about 28 minutes, but we did encourage him to fill everything he could lay hands on with water.

Ramona is north of San Diego. Money quote from Fox: California is on fire from Mexico to LA.

118 The Albatross  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:12:29am

re: #104 Dustoff-507

Ramona, Map

119 BabbaZee  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:12:48am

re: #99 Poitiers-Lepanto

...laughing!


BTW this is important on many levels most of which are invisible.

WLGF out

120 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:13:05am

re: #112 realwest
Depends on the city or county and how they set their rules. In Calif the CHP or Sheriffs do the leg work on reaching people to get the out.
Radio stations do it too.

Charles is in the Beach area so he is ok.

121 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:13:17am

re: #92 americanpundit

The judge is a Reagan appointee.

Yes, and he's a good judge.

122 Ma Sands  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:14:14am

re: #100 Just_A_Grunt

re: #94 realwest

re: #60 Charles Thanks Charles - do you know where the hell "Ramona" is? LGFer "dorian" has said he's trapped there and can't get out and can't reach emergency personnel.

Furhter in the thread there was a post where they sent a bus in and doraingrey was able to get out. The other lizard I believe is freetoken.


No, he's not safe, quite yet.....

123 MandyManners  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:14:49am

re: #79 The Other Les

re: #77 Ben Hur


They might be hung, but they've got no balls.

John Holmes was well hung...

Didn't he die of AIDS?

124 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:14:57am

re: #118 The Albatross


Thanks.. I'm from that area.. been to Romona many times
The air tankers are kept at the air port there.

125 spam spam spam spam  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:15:30am

"Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion."

President GW Bush

126 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:15:49am

re: #116 DanThePainter

Flashback: July

Fear whittling jury pool in terror financing trial


Three potential jurors in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism financing trial were sent home Monday after each said they were afraid their service might put them or their families in danger.

"Sounds like some pretty serious charges to me," said one man, moments after he was told why he was asked to show up at the federal courthouse. "I don't feel comfortable. ... This ain't like a parking ticket."

"Would the fear of retaliation affect the way you looked at the case?" defense attorney Greg Westfall asked.

"Yes," the man said.

They may have to run them like the Mafia trials in Italy, with jurors' identities hidden, and defendants in cages.

127 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:15:59am
128 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:16:03am

re: #123 MandyManners

re: #79 The Other Les


re: #77 Ben Hur

They might be hung, but they've got no balls.

John Holmes was well hung...

Didn't he die of AIDS?

Yeah he did.

129 The Other Les  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:16:08am

re: #123 MandyManners

re: #79 The Other Les

re: #77 Ben Hur


They might be hung, but they've got no balls.


John Holmes was well hung...

Didn't he die of AIDS?

Yes.

130 loppyd  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:16:51am

When is the judge expected to poll the jury?

131 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:18:16am

Another what? moment via Hot Air.

When jurors came into the courtroom earlier Monday, the judge read the verdicts, but three jurors said those findings were not correct. U.S. District Judge A. Joe Fish sent then back to resolve the differences.

The jury forewoman said she was surprised by the three jurors' actions.

"When we voted, there was no issue in the vote," she said. "No one spoke up any different. I really don't understand where it is coming from. All 12 made that decision."

The actions left government officials stunned and dissension among the jurors, NBC 5 reported.

132 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:19:08am

re: #118 The Albatross

re: #104 Dustoff-507

Ramona, Map

Looks like Ramona is pretty well off by itself, connected by only a few roads - two state highways.

133 Spiny Norman  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:19:14am

re: #117 galloping granny

Money quote from Fox: California is on fire from Mexico to LA.

Hyperbole and tabloid journalism. Two good reasons why I don't watch Fox News.

One observation on my part: whenever the Santa Ana winds pick up, the firebugs come out in droves. As of 9:00 pm last night, there were 11 separate fires burning and they all started at roughly the same time. I would bet that at least 9 of them are arson. Probably all of them.

134 rappmandu  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:19:56am

Maybe it's just me, but this whole thing looks like it will end up looking like it was "just one bad apple." I'm not necessarily questioning the verdicts themselves. But the power of maintaining the status quo (see CAIR) should not be misunderestimated.

135 realwest  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:19:56am

re: #120 Dustoff-507 Making the LARGE assumption that dorian and freetoken can still reach us (I believe dorain is on wifi) are there any numbers we can call to help?
AND PLEASE DON'T LAUGH AT THIS, I was able to reach FEMA and the Texas Law Enforcement Beurau or whatever the hell it's called, during Katrina when folks in Texas weren't able to reach 'em.

136 spam spam spam spam  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:21:00am

How anyone could not find these terrorists guilty is beyond me. The jurists are either ignorant about Islam, sympathetic to Islam, bought off, or threatened. Just like our President & congress I suppose.

137 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:21:04am

re: #127 Just_A_Grunt

Here are the posts detailing doriangrey's plight.

Romona is a big town.

138 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:21:16am
139 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:22:45am

re: #132 Honorary Yooper

re: #118 The Albatross


re: #104 Dustoff-507

Ramona, Map


Looks like Ramona is pretty well off by itself, connected by only a few roads - two state highways.


Sure is... it's a big place with a sizable fire dept

140 SaneInMN  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:23:30am

It appears the US and Israel were sold out by the State Dept. yet again....

[Link: www.wfaa.com...]

The government’s chief witness about the link between the Palestinian charity committees was an Israeli Shin Bet counterterrorism official testifying under the pseudonym “Avi.” He was able to name board members for nearly all the committees who were Hamas, even identifying some as members of Hamas military section, which helps coordinate suicide bombings. Some of the affiliations were such common knowledge in the region that he said they were written about in the press. The defense, however, countered with the former No. 2 intelligence official at the State Department, Edward Abington. He told jurors that although he got daily CIA briefings for years while stationed in Jerusalem as consul general, he never was told that the Palestinian charity committees Holy Land gave money to were part of Hamas. Prosecutors also told jurors that Holy Land’s humanitarian contributions helped Hamas’s social wing win popular support for its violent agenda against the Israelis.

Because, you know, if a State Dept. dhimmi says HLF was OK, well than, they must be OK!

141 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:24:35am

re: #135 realwest

Not that I know of Realwest.

Please note that the city of Romona has a large FD and it's where the air tankers are kept.

142 galloping granny  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:24:36am

re: #133 Spiny Norman

re: #117 galloping granny

Money quote from Fox: California is on fire from Mexico to LA.

Hyperbole and tabloid journalism. Two good reasons why I don't watch Fox News.

One observation on my part: whenever the Santa Ana winds pick up, the firebugs come out in droves. As of 9:00 pm last night, there were 11 separate fires burning and they all started at roughly the same time. I would bet that at least 9 of them are arson. Probably all of them.

I would bet that too. Normally I would agree with you about tabloid journalism. Those 80 mph winds that are keeping the water planes grounded make me give a little more credence to the comment.

143 Golem Akbar  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:24:47am

re: #125 spam spam spam spam

"Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion."

President GW Bush

Okay, let's be honest. It's a truthful statement, for the most part -- most Moslems are those things. But many (over 5%, and that's a lot of people) are also Islamo-fascists. Bush was making more a statement of hope, as well. He was trying (gently) to remind the world that Islam ought to stand for timeless values, not what it has become, these past few years. And as we all know, most Moslems are really ashamed of Islamic fascism, and are too afraid to speak out.

What to do about it is the really the problem. That's what LGF does best, actually, debates this issue very thoroughly.

144 The Albatross  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:25:41am

re: #139 Dustoff-507

Ramona is at the junction of 67 and 78. I tried to pull up San Diego County Evacuation Routes, but the server is busy.... really busy.

145 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:27:36am

re: #142 galloping granny


Not quite, the HIGH winds and they are high winds will pick up embers and carry them for up to a mile and it starts another fire.

I've seen this many times when I worked in San Diego

146 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:29:02am

re: #144 The Albatross

I'm not suprised.. Just talked with a fire capt friend of mine in san diego.
They have units in Romona already.

147 doriangrey  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:29:14am

re: #133 Spiny Norman

Sorry Norman this isnt Hyperbole or tabloid journalism. It's a big ass fire for real. And you would lose your bet on how the fires started, most of them were caused by downed power lines. Parts of SoCal have been getting winds in the 80's with gust over 100.

148 Piglet-U93  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:29:16am

re: #143 Golem Akbar

There is nothing socially redeeming in Islam. It is a predatory entity.

149 realwest  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:29:19am

re: #141 Dustoff-507 Thanks - just heard from dorian on the DT, got his car started (finally) and is driving out of town - headed West, hope that's the right direction!
Still no further word from freetoken.

150 Spiny Norman  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:29:32am

re: #140 SaneInMN

It appears the US and Israel were sold out by the State Dept. yet again....

[Link: www.wfaa.com...]

The government’s chief witness about the link between the Palestinian charity committees was an Israeli Shin Bet counterterrorism official testifying under the pseudonym “Avi.” He was able to name board members for nearly all the committees who were Hamas, even identifying some as members of Hamas military section, which helps coordinate suicide bombings. Some of the affiliations were such common knowledge in the region that he said they were written about in the press. The defense, however, countered with the former No. 2 intelligence official at the State Department, Edward Abington. He told jurors that although he got daily CIA briefings for years while stationed in Jerusalem as consul general, he never was told that the Palestinian charity committees Holy Land gave money to were part of Hamas. Prosecutors also told jurors that Holy Land’s humanitarian contributions helped Hamas’s social wing win popular support for its violent agenda against the Israelis.

Because, you know, if a State Dept. dhimmi says HLF was OK, well than, they must be OK!

That's just fucking great. Some asswipe bureaucrat is trying to protect his contacts (and his lucrative consulting job once he retires from civil service), so terrorist money-laundering gangsters walk.

Is this a great country, or what?

151 jcm  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:30:11am

re: #145 Dustoff-507

re: #142 galloping granny


Not quite, the HIGH winds and they are high winds will pick up embers and carry them for up to a mile and it starts another fire.

I've seen this many times when I worked in San Diego

The fires and the Santa Ana's not a good combination, virtually impossible to fight in those winds.

152 realwest  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:30:19am

re: #147 doriangrey Hey, glad you're on this thread now, but why the hell aren't you driving out of there?!

153 Ma Sands  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:30:20am

re: #147 doriangrey

dORIANGREY....YOU GOT YOUR VERY OWN THREAD, UP TOP, NOW......ALL ON THE FIRES! SEE YOU THERE.....?

154 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:31:14am

re: #149 realwest


Yeah it's the right direction... the city he lives in a quite large. Should be ok.

155 Dustoff-507  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:32:21am

re: #147 doriangrey


Where do you live.. No i don't need the street address.

156 rappmandu  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:33:09am

Of course, the defendants wish to be acquitted on all counts. I presume the prosecution wants them all to be indicted on most, if not all, counts. There are larger players behind the defendants, the defense, and the prosecutors, obviously.

Is it implausible to think that the (agreed upon?) "desired" outcome is that this be portrayed as SSJS (Sudden Soft Jihad Syndrome), so that the whole RoP facade continues unimpeded? CAIR seems to be operating in spite of the legal problems of their "few bad apples."

Also, if HLF is toast, what is/will be their next incarnation?

157 Spiny Norman  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:36:03am

re: #147 doriangrey

re: #133 Spiny Norman

Sorry Norman this isnt Hyperbole or tabloid journalism. It's a big ass fire for real. And you would lose your bet on how the fires started, most of them were caused by downed power lines. Parts of SoCal have been getting winds in the 80's with gust over 100.

I'm sorry you're in an area where there's a fire, but hey, I live in SoCal too, and I had to evacuate in October of 2003 (from an arson fire - two of them that joined, actually): the whole fucking state from Mexico to LA is NOT on fire. That Fox News quote IS hyperbole and tabloid journalism.

158 BODYGUARDEAGLE  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:37:13am

re: #18 americanpundit

I can't really say I'm surprised, though. It's not that I think they're innocent (I don't), but I didn't really expect the jury to convict. Don't know why. Just didn't.

************************************************** ********
Americanpundit, I agree, They are NOT innocent, but the prosecutors have obviously failed to equal the defense and the islamic propaganda machine in their ability to persuade the jury.
I also agree that from the beginning I did not have faith in the Feds ability to educate the jury of the scope and mission of this vile conspiratorial organization. Not just the ineptness of the Fed.Prosecutors, but with the help of the defense lawyers and the Media, The Fed. was doomed from the start.

159 Gilly  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:37:23am

Dallas radio station wbap just announced that Judge Fish has declared a mistrial in many of the charges. No specifics just that there is a lot of confusion at the federal courthouse. Apparently no celebrating yet just chaos!

160 rappmandu  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:37:49am

re: #147 doriangrey

Also, wasn't it really rainy earlier this year? As a SoCal native, I always expect a wicked wildfire season after a wet winter, spring, and summer. All that dry brush just sitting there.

161 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:39:24am

Mistrial has been declared in trial

162 pat  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:42:18am

This is a mess. Has been from the start. Too many counts of varying nature.

163 jcm  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:42:42am

re: #161 Just_A_Grunt

Mistrial has been declared in trial

All verdicts? Or just the hung jury counts?

164 scanderbeg  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:43:28am

The Investigative Project is also reporting the mistrial, which may throw the previous acquitals in jeopardy, since the verdict couldn't be verified by the judge. Absolutely crazy!

Hopefully, the prosecution will streamline the charges and make the best of their surprising second bite at the apple.

165 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:44:00am

This is just WAY too confusing!

166 Gilly  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:44:22am

Local news outlets are not giving the details. Probably because no one knows. Just that there is a mistrial.

#161 Just_A_Grunt

Are you in Dallas?

167 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:44:38am

11:29 a.m. A mistrial has been declared for five of six defendants in the case of a Muslim charity charged with financing Middle Eastern terrorists.

What a mess, but there are lessons to be learned in all this. Prosecutors must figure out what happened and see how to improve their case in chief against the defendants.

Other cases around the country involving terror-financing schemes will also look at this case and see what can be done differently to secure convictions.

It will take time to digest the results, and also to see what happened to the 6th individual.

168 spam spam spam spam  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:44:49am

re: #143 Golem Akbar

re: #125 spam spam spam spam

"Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion."

President GW Bush

Okay, let's be honest. It's a truthful statement, for the most part -- most Moslems are those things. But many (over 5%, and that's a lot of people) are also Islamo-fascists. Bush was making more a statement of hope, as well. He was trying (gently) to remind the world that Islam ought to stand for timeless values, not what it has become, these past few years. And as we all know, most Moslems are really ashamed of Islamic fascism, and are too afraid to speak out.

You drive home my points from post # 136 well. Islam is in itself- evil. Any Muslim not actively fighting against Jihad is de facto supporting Jihad. But since Jihad is incumbant upon all Muslims, well, maybe you can learn...

What to do about it is the really the problem. That's what LGF does best, actually, debates this issue very thoroughly.

169 doriangrey  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:46:21am

re: #160 rappmandu

Actually the funny part is that it has been fairly rainy here for the last two months. It has rained on an average of 2 days a week for the last two months, so I really wasnt expecting this, everything should be relatively damp.

170 Just_A_Grunt  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:47:14am

re: #166 Gilly

Local news outlets are not giving the details. Probably because no one knows. Just that there is a mistrial.

#161 Just_A_Grunt

Are you in Dallas?

No I am in ATL. Fox News just came across and said that a mistrial had been declared.

171 spam spam spam spam  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:52:02am

BTE OT,

I'm here in soCal near some big fires. Sky is brown. I hate the Santa Ana winds- they change everything here. Bring out the worst in people and the environment. Dusty, dry, static-y, mean, ugly, brown. Skin itches. People get cranky. Makes you want to listen to the Doors (which is ok). We left a sliding door open last nite and this morning everything is covered in a layer of dirt. The idiot gardeners are out today with the leaf blowers, on schedule, moving dirt from place to place. Just like in Old Mexico. Doing work Americans would put off 'till the winds die down.

172 spam spam spam spam  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:55:10am

re: #160 rappmandu

re: #147 doriangrey

Also, wasn't it really rainy earlier this year? As a SoCal native, I always expect a wicked wildfire season after a wet winter, spring, and summer. All that dry brush just sitting there.

It's been the driest 12 months I can recall. Very little rain. The hills never turned green last winter. Brown, brown, all around.

173 Gilly  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 9:55:25am

Dallas TV station wfaa.com has a short video. The reporter Byron Harris is saying that there will be retrial of four of the five men and the foundation. The other guy is free to go so to speak. The verdict was read and then the judge polled the jury and two basically said "nope didn't vote that way." Thank goodness Judge Fish polled the jury!

174 Gilly  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 10:11:23am

apparently the judge has issued a gag order according to an update video at wfaa.com

the video shows the action outside the courthouse.

175 screaming_eagle  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 10:12:05am

Where the hell did the find these jurours?

176 ORD neighbor  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 10:12:52am

Amerabia seeping into the courthouse.

177 BODYGUARDEAGLE  Mon, Oct 22, 2007 11:21:36am

re: #175 screaming_eagle

Where the hell did the find these jurours?

************************************************** *******
It seems they were having trouble finding jurors who were not afraid of reprisals against family members and themselves.THIS might explain why the screwed up verdicts and weird antics of some of them after they came back in.


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