Oh boy...here we go again...

Are you getting hate mail from VB supporters? Is the hate mail as bad as the Ron Paul hate mail?

Are white supremacist groups allowed to seethe?

Swiss anti-immigration party made significant gains inspite of Nazi/Racist comparisons.

re: #3 Diamond Bullet

Only if you write on their toilet seats.

Keep up the good work Charles!

In the Flemish to english language translation Vlaams Belang actually translates to ron paul

Has VB itself responded? I'd love to see that, if they did.

Going to watch some football.

Week 8 selections here.

My NY Giants are playing in Londonistan today.

BBL.

.

I’m getting a lot of support from European readers

I am sure about that, and that confirms what I said yesterday about the fact that a good knowledge of Europe would- should have been a must for someone trying to jump into an antijihadist "meeting"...in Europe...

What the group lacks is integrity. They are rightly disavowing the toxic practices of Islam - while engaging in and promoting the toxic behaviors of supremacy.

Lack of integerity
-DT, Ethics Educator

You cannot "Rationalize Away A White Power Symbol" ...

re: #9 JammieWearingFool

Frank Caliendo was just doing his george bush impression ( dubya was doing a stand-up act ) proclaiming how great it was that America sent an NFL game to London.
"I think it's great that people in Europe get to see an excellent American export...oh wait, we sent them the Miami Dolphins...forget it "

/rimshot

For now.

I will speak more later.

Let us try not loose our sense of humor through this and may GOD guide our steps.

WLGF out

...and also a lot of people trying to rationalize away the White Power symbol on Filip DeWinter’s bookshelf.

I've learned they get offended at the term White Power. They prefer the PC version; White Pride.
A lot of people have been taking great offense to my referring to others as "neoNazi supporters". Is the a PC term for neoNazi?

A person who judges another solely on the basis of skin color is a fool. A person who judges another solely on the basis of that persons character will soon find that skin color doesn't matter. A good heart will manifest itself with good character in any person,regardless of skin color or religion.

Impeach Bush by William F. Buckley

No, he's not calling for impeaching Bush, just discussing the dolts who call for it... My favorite quote:

The dividing line is between just plain partisanship and Constitution-bending to advance a political cause. Several thousand convened in Washington last spring demanding the impeachment of President George W. Bush. The moving spirit of this enterprise turns out to be Ramsey Clark, who would be in favor of impeaching St. Peter if Peter gave out the least emanation in favor of a Republican president.

So Clark continues to live in jerkdom

, but that does not alter the fact that there are people out there who believe the time has come for impeachment. (bold added)

re: #12 LSD

You cannot "Rationalize Away A White Power Symbol" ...

Correct. You can't.

re: #14 BabbaZee

I love that song. Mel Brooks is brilliant.

anybody else experiencing the problem on this thread where hitting the NEW COMMENTS button is refreshing the entire page and starting at the top of the thread?

This is the only thread where this is happening. Strange

For Those who are pissed at Charles for exposing an UGLY aspect of the Brussels Conference ... Be glad that a potential "enemy within" has been exposed ... Kick them OUT.

re: #1 BignJames

Oh boy...here we go again...

Well, this is one of the most important battles LGF ever fought: if the antijihadist movement gets polluted by ANY contact with the fascist forces it will be DESTROYED.
Charles is one of the fathers of the movement and he is right in protecting it (and us all) from such a catastrophe.

This is a time for "Gospel words": yes yes, no no.

I hope people realize the one big difference between the "Left" versus Vlaams Belang controversy: the modern European Left is just as, if not more, anti-Semitic. This is where the ubiquitous WWII analogies break down. So your options are Islamist-Socialists with a totalitarian anti-Semitic streak a mile wide (in power) versus the only party opposing uncontrolled immigration (including a creepy racist lobby).

If you're Jewish and still in Europe, what's the hold up?

I gotta say, the more I read about these parties, the less I trust what they are trying to say

I thought that was the sign of the Zodiac. Oh well...

re: #20 Shug

nevermind. it suddenly stopped doing it...even more strange.

twilight zone stuff

re: #20 Shug

anybody else experiencing the problem on this thread where hitting the NEW COMMENTS button is refreshing the entire page and starting at the top of the thread?

This is the only thread where this is happening. Strange

___
It happens to me if I use IE7, but not when I use FireFox

re: #16 WayDownSouthInBama

A person who judges another solely on the basis of skin color is a fool. A person who judges another solely on the basis of that persons character will soon find that skin color doesn't matter. A good heart will manifest itself with good character in any person,regardless of skin color or religion.

Amen. It's a huge advantage to understand character because then you have the power to discern who is toxic and who is not.

For instance, Bill Clinton is still wildly popular on the left. They are blind to his catasrophic character flaws. I wonder how Bill is taking Pres. Ford's comments about him being a sex addict. Odds are that Hillary is beating him up over that, too.

OT : some boos from the crowd at Wembly during the singing of the National anthem.

I wonder if they were booing the song, or the absolutely dreadful rendition.

Can't anybody get a singer who can actually sing it properly? It pisses me off when they jive it up

re: #28 DistantThunder

See, at least Ford had the good sense not to say anything to Bill's face when he was still alive. IMHO, Gerald Ford is the model of how former Presidents should conduct themselves when out of office.

Press Question for Hillary: Will Bill be willing to go into treatment for his sex addiction if you become President?

let me see if I have this right...white power groups that want to eject muslims from europe are bad,but printing ayats from the Koran on toilet paper is going to some how convince Muslims Islam is wrong. white power groups defacing jewish synagogues and such is bad. If your gonna take the moral high ground you better go all the way.

re: #23 Beagle

I hope people realize the one big difference between the "Left" versus Vlaams Belang controversy: the modern European Left is just as, if not more, anti-Semitic. This is where the ubiquitous WWII analogies break down. So your options are Islamist-Socialists with a totalitarian anti-Semitic streak a mile wide (in power) versus the only party opposing uncontrolled immigration (including a creepy racist lobby).

Very respectfully, since you were already an Old Lizard when I was a Young Lizard,
I will observe that any such description allows the enemies to define the field of the game.

LGF has shown, and the lesson can be extended beyond the borders of this great Country, that you can REinvent the political scene.

An alternative to the leftistfascists AND/OR neofascist landscape MUST be found. Invented, created.

Number of elections Vlaams Belaang have participated in and won: lots
Number of political parties De Winter has created: Two

Number of political parties LGF has created: ZERO
Number of elections LGF has participated in and won: ZERO.

sorry mate. in the war against Jihad, just blogging about it wont cut it - you gotta get out there, in the real world and fight it.

OK Charles, since you make this to be about racism, I'd like to hear your definition of racism. The indigenous population of all European countries is white. If European countries would like to maintain the indigenous population as the majority, this by extension means a white majority. Do you think the people in, say, Norway, have the right to desire an immigration policy which ensures a traditional demographic majority, or is this racism? If so, how come non-European countries are allowed to desire the same thing without being attacked?

Since you're so preoccupied with racism, will you also launch an equally passionate campaign against the Whiteness Studies now taught in increasing numbers of American educational institutions, sometimes with the support of public money?

re: #30 Macker

re: #28 DistantThunder

See, at least Ford had the good sense not to say anything to Bill's face when he was still alive. IMHO, Gerald Ford is the model of how former Presidents should conduct themselves when out of office.

In this one instance it would have been a good thing for Ford to come right out and snap Bill out of his state of denial. Addicts/rapists think that no one can see through them.

re: #31 DistantThunder

Wouldn't that be a motherfrakker to ask them!

re: #30 Macker

So, he came back from the dead to say these things?
/

re: #22 Poitiers-Lepanto

Agreed...islamists/supremacists...2 sides of the same coin.

Atlas explains DeWinter's "White Europe" statement...
Proving A Negative

Dewinter: First of all, what I said in 1991, that I was in favor of a European Europe, white Europe, well that's a metaphor, it meant that I'm in favor of what Europe stands for, our values our way of life, our civilization. And well yes, it's a white civilization in the past. I can't deny that, that has nothing to do with white supremacist theories or that sort of thing or racism, it's just a fact.

Ah, a metaphor! Wait until he uses the "parody" defense.

re: #34 buzzdroid

Number of elections Vlaams Belaang have participated in and won: lots
Number of political parties De Winter has created: Two

Number of political parties LGF has created: ZERO
Number of elections LGF has participated in and won: ZERO.

sorry mate. in the war against Jihad, just blogging about it wont cut it - you gotta get out there, in the real world and fight it.

Cynical, lost in the world as it is (or as it appears) and (evidently) nihilist.
Why do you care posting here ?

re: #35 Fjordman

OK Charles, since you make this to be about racism, I'd like to hear your definition of racism. The indigenous population of all European countries is white. If European countries would like to maintain the indigenous population as the majority, this by extension means a white majority. Do you think the people in, say, Norway, have the right to desire an immigration policy which ensures a traditional demographic majority, or is this racism? If so, how come non-European countries are allowed to desire the same thing without being attacked?

Since you're so preoccupied with racism, will you also launch an equally passionate campaign against the Whiteness Studies now taught in increasing numbers of American educational institutions, sometimes with the support of public money?

Europe will have to tolerate some immigration to maintain stability, but would they only be willing to consider other white people - that makes no sense. Any sane country should want the best and the brightest - and most ehtical - to immigrate regardless of skin color.

re: #35 Fjordman

Why don't you explain Charles and LGF posters being "moonbats" first.

Anyone with white power leanings or who has ever diminished the evil of Auschwitz should be loudly and emphatically boo-ed from the stage; they must be aggressively shunned. This blog and others has been right to criticize progressives and the Democratic party for allowing terrorist sympathizers to have a soapbox on the fringes of their movement, and that is why, today, they are on a sinking ship. Pro-freedom / Islamofascist-aware movements have to show that we can keep our own house clean in order to continue occupying the moral high ground. Associations with white power goons and Holocaust deniers should not be tolerated for even a nanosecond. We do not need the support of racists and thugs; they need our 'tolerance' to give themselves legitimacy; our cause stands by itself.

re: #9 JammieWearingFool

Bringing Fran Tarkington out of retirement would be an improvement for the poor Vikings this year.
// {;-)™

re: #38 6pat6

re: #30 Macker

So, he came back from the dead to say these things?
/

It's a book, have you heard about it, that he agreed to be published only after he died.

Seems there might be some more info coming in regarding that statue.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #35 Fjordman

When US forces were stationed in Iceland, no black man or woman could get orders to get stationed there, because the Icelandic government did not want to "contaminate" their people by having blacks on the island. The Icelandic government did not to risk blacks inter-marrying into the Iclandic bloodlines. This was policy up to the early '80s.

re: #38 6pat6

Ford authorized these things to be said after he died.

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Atlas explains DeWinter's "White Europe" statement...
Proving A Negative

Dewinter: First of all, what I said in 1991, that I was in favor of a European Europe, white Europe, well that's a metaphor, it meant that I'm in favor of what Europe stands for, our values our way of life, our civilization. And well yes, it's a white civilization in the past. I can't deny that, that has nothing to do with white supremacist theories or that sort of thing or racism, it's just a fact.

Ah, a metaphor! Wait until he uses the "parody" defense.

Well, if we accept that we should accept the chocolate city metaphor too.

And a lot of other "metaphors".

:-)

I told the witch doctor I was in love with you
I told the witch doctor you didn't love me too
And then the witch doctor, he told me what to do
He said that ...

ooo eee ooo ah ah
ting tang
wala Vlaams Belang

ooo eee ooo ah ah
ting tang
wala Vlaams Belang

We're "moonbats".

re: #46 DistantThunder

Hence the /sarc tag! Didn't you see that?

re: #29 Shug

I wonder if they were booing the song, or the absolutely dreadful rendition.

If it was as bad as you're indicating, I'd go with the rendition.

Why we chose a national anthem set to a drinking song, I'll never know. It requires either a really good singer, or more alcohol than even football fans consume to make it work.

re: #50 Poitiers-Lepanto

Chocolate City is just as bad as White Europe.

Man, I still can't believe Pamela is still rationalizing this.

re: #35 Fjordman

OK Charles, since you make this to be about racism, I'd like to hear your definition of racism. The indigenous population of all European countries is white. If European countries would like to maintain the indigenous population as the majority, this by extension means a white majority. Do you think the people in, say, Norway, have the right to desire an immigration policy which ensures a traditional demographic majority, or is this racism? If so, how come non-European countries are allowed to desire the same thing without being attacked?

Since you're so preoccupied with racism, will you also launch an equally passionate campaign against the Whiteness Studies now taught in increasing numbers of American educational institutions, sometimes with the support of public money?

Where?

re: #50 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Atlas explains DeWinter's "White Europe" statement...
Proving A Negative

Dewinter: First of all, what I said in 1991, that I was in favor of a European Europe, white Europe, well that's a metaphor, it meant that I'm in favor of what Europe stands for, our values our way of life, our civilization. And well yes, it's a white civilization in the past. I can't deny that, that has nothing to do with white supremacist theories or that sort of thing or racism, it's just a fact.

Ah, a metaphor! Wait until he uses the "parody" defense.

Well, if we accept that we should accept the chocolate city metaphor too.

And a lot of other "metaphors".

:-)

Demand a "pure" white country - and you'll get vanilla. I'm a Neopolitan girl myself.

Can we get a headcount of how many of these are here?

re: #35 Fjordman

Are we(you) talking race, or religious based value systems?

You're comments reek of the same relativism displayed by racists called to task: 'I'm not racist, I'm a white separatist.'

Maybe Stormfront is also using that "Celtic Cross" symbol as a metaphor? Or could it be satire?

re: #42 DistantThunder

re: #35 Fjordman

OK Charles, since you make this to be about racism, I'd like to hear your definition of racism. The indigenous population of all European countries is white. If European countries would like to maintain the indigenous population as the majority, this by extension means a white majority. Do you think the people in, say, Norway, have the right to desire an immigration policy which ensures a traditional demographic majority, or is this racism? If so, how come non-European countries are allowed to desire the same thing without being attacked?

Since you're so preoccupied with racism, will you also launch an equally passionate campaign against the Whiteness Studies now taught in increasing numbers of American educational institutions, sometimes with the support of public money?

Europe will have to tolerate some immigration to maintain stability, but would they only be willing to consider other white people - that makes no sense. Any sane country should want the best and the brightest - and most ehtical - to immigrate regardless of skin color.

The idea that Europe was until recently traditionally solely Caucasian (as in "white") is an absolute falsehood. As far back as the 1600's French nobility in what is now Maine & Nova Scotia married into the native Abenaki, bore off-spring and registered the births of those off-spring in France. Subsequently, at the time of the Acadian removal, some of those descendants returned to France to live.

Some of the earliest explorers of the Americas were black - one of the most famous a black Spanish slave. Catholic.

The difference is NOT skin color. You will find plenty of "white" muslims whose ancestors have been both white and muslim for generations. The difference is culture.

re: #35 Fjordman

Since you're so preoccupied with racism, will you also launch an equally passionate campaign against the Whiteness Studies now taught in increasing numbers of American educational institutions, sometimes with the support of public money?

What are you talking about? I cannot remember seeing a course on "White Studies" anywhere. If there had been, there'd be NYT editorials denouncing it.

Charles - just because I know you have so much time on your hands, in addition to your e-mails, I'd suggest you look at the Overnight Thread - especially starting in the hours of approximately 5:30 or 6:00 AM Pacific time.

re: #35 Fjordman

The indigenous population of all European countries is white.

That is UTTER NONSENSE.

Any such proposition has been proven false again and again and the recent DNA studies prove it a giant lie.

/and I am being polite.

//anyone who starts a discussion from the color of the skin is on the wrong way.

///P-L was born in Europe, is 6'4" and gloriously brownish

I am deeply bored by this white trash being proposed on this noble forum...

There is the point of genetic characteristics. The blonde hair, blue eyed genes are recessive, and I've read various article about how there will be few blondes left in the world by the end of the century.

Should we care to keep those characteristics viable?

re: #12 LSD

You cannot "Rationalize Away A White Power Symbol" ...

The Celtic Cross existed for centuries before racist groups misappropriated it, namely, the Ku Klux Klan. I still see them in cemeteries and on churches here in the Bay Area, and they are not intended to be anything but the cross of Christ. So we need to be careful in interpreting a Christian symbol. It is very important to consider the context in which the symbol is used.

HOWEVER, the Celtic Cross displayed in the first video, sitting in a book case, doesn't seem to have any other purpose but to convey a message, and it doesn't seem to be one of Christ. This Celtic Cross is much larger than usual; the cross does not have a long base like genuine Celtic Crosses, and so appears as a plus sign in shape. My intuition told me, when the cross was flashed on the screen, that it was indeed intended as a racist message. There is no other context that would permit a different understanding.

Two new pro-VB posts on Gates of Vienna today:

Vlaams Belang: Freedom Fighters

Kepiblanc Weighs In

First post is based on a Diana West post, and the second based on comments on the first, Kepiblanc being one of their Danish correspondents.

re: #55 marwan's daughter

re: #50 Poitiers-Lepanto

Chocolate City is just as bad as White Europe.

Man, I still can't believe Pamela is still rationalizing this.

Exactly.
Exactly.

re: #66 DistantThunder

There is the point of genetic characteristics. The blonde hair, blue eyed genes are recessive, and I've read various article about how there will be few blondes left in the world by the end of the century.

Should we care to keep those characteristics viable?

As long as there are hair salons, there will always be blondes

BignJames: I've written about this before:

Caucasophobia — the Accepted Racism

Barbara Kay of Canada’s National Post writes about a new fad called Whiteness Studies: “The goal of WS is to entrench permanent race consciousness in everyone — eternal victimhood for nonwhites, eternal guilt for whites — and was most famously framed by WS chief guru, Noel Ignatiev, former professor at Harvard University, now teaching at the Massachusetts College of Art: “The key to solving the social problems of our age is to abolish the white race.”

Some of the inventors of Whiteness Studies have stated their goals quite openly: “Abolitionism is also a strategy: its aim is not racial harmony but class war. By attacking whiteness, the abolitionists seek to undermine the main pillar of capitalist rule in this country.” And: “The task is to gather together a minority determined to make it impossible for anyone to be white.”

Conservative social critic David Horowitz comments that: “Black studies celebrates blackness, Chicano studies celebrates Chicanos, women’s studies celebrates women, and white studies attacks white people as evil.” However, despite widespread criticism, at least 30 institutions — from Princeton University to the University of California at Los Angeles — teach courses in whiteness studies.

re: #52 Sharmuta

We're "moonbats".

Simply amazing. We're "moonbats" now for saying we wish not to be associated with Nazis and those who espouse Nazi-esque ideals. Well, if one is a "moonbat" for not wanting to be associated with folks like that, then consider me a "moonbat".

re: #58 jeppo

Breaking News!

Anti-Defamation League rationalizes away a White Power symbol!

"It is important to note that the Celtic Cross is used widely today in many mainstream and cultural contexts. No one should assume that a Celtic Cross, divorced from other trappings of extremism, automatically denotes use as a hate symbol."

Nice selective quoting there, jeppo. How about quoting the rest of their entry on the white Power symbol?

Symbol Type - General Racist Symbol

Also Known As "Odin’s Cross"

Traditional Use/Origins - The symbol for the Celts of ancient Ireland and Scotland; also used as a Christian symbol

Hate Group/Extremist Organization - Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists

Extremist Meaning or Representation - International white pride

Background/History:
This is one of the most popular symbols for neo-Nazis and white supremacists. First popularized by the Ku Klux Klan, the symbol was later adopted by the National Front in England and other racists such as Don Black on his Web site, Stormfront, and the racist band Skrewdriver to represent international "white pride." It is also known as Odin’s Cross.

I guess we're supposed to ignore all that stuff, and ignore all the other links and connections?

re: #43 Sharmuta

re: #35 Fjordman

Why don't you explain Charles and LGF posters being "moonbats" first.

Sharmuta, Fjordman is one of the most important and authoritative voices in Europe when it comes to fighting islamofascism. His voice is not one we can afford to silence. He is not someone that we can afford to lose.

Europe is not the US and our attitudes towards many things are markedly different - as different as night and day. We need to strive to try to understand our differences, because we are all doomed to sink in the same leaky boat if we do not.

Speaking of Europe's flirtation with white power, in addition to Vlaams Belang, Gary Kasparov, the former chess champion, is trying to campaign in Russia against Putin (which is really impossible since Putin has shut down democracy in Russia) and has aligned himself with the National Bolshevik Party. If you're not familiar with them, here's an excerpt from the blog, La Russophobe:

The tactic has produced some of the largest political protests since Putin came to power, and raised eyebrows about some of his allies, like the National Bolshevik Party, which envisions a socialist Russian empire stretching across most of Europe, and reminds some people of the Nazis. The National Bolshevik Party’s flag, already banned, is reminiscent of the Nazi flag - except that the swastika is replaced by a hammer and sickle. “If you’re fighting for democracy, how can you march with fascists?” Kroft asks. “They’re not fascists,” Kasparov says. “You say they’re not fascists. That’s not what we’re told,” Kroft remarks. “Yeah, but fascist is a word. I’m also called fascist by some of the Kremlin factions,” Kasparov replies. Asked if he agrees with what the National Bolsheviks stand for, Kasparov tells Kroft, “They stand for number of things that I may disagree. But we agree on one thing: the restoration of free and fair elections, no censorship and diminishing of presidential powers. What’s wrong about that?”

[Link: larussophobe.wordpress.com...]

re: #56 BignJames

...will you also launch an equally passionate campaign against the Whiteness Studies now taught in increasing numbers of American educational institutions,

I'm going back to school and be a PhD in Whiteness!

re: #66 DistantThunder

There is the point of genetic characteristics. The blonde hair, blue eyed genes are recessive, and I've read various article about how there will be few blondes left in the world by the end of the century.

Should we care to keep those characteristics viable?

re: #70 Shug

re: #66 DistantThunder

There is the point of genetic characteristics. The blonde hair, blue eyed genes are recessive, and I've read various article about how there will be few blondes left in the world by the end of the century.

Should we care to keep those characteristics viable?

As long as there are hair salons, there will always be blondes

And those little boxes from the drug store that I love so much...oops,TMI.

re: #72 Honorary Yooper

If supporting vlaams belang is right- I've never been so glad to be wrong.

re: #52 Sharmuta I honestly don't know what the hell you're talking about - when I went to the "moonbats" link all I got was the front page with Charles lead in; if you were, as I suspect, trying to link to what someone said about us, you're gonna have to say something like "we're 'moonbats' according to so and so's comment #__ on that thread.
And I hope you do. Please.

re: #73 Charles

re: #58 jeppo

Breaking News!

Anti-Defamation League rationalizes away a White Power symbol!

"It is important to note that the Celtic Cross is used widely today in many mainstream and cultural contexts. No one should assume that a Celtic Cross, divorced from other trappings of extremism, automatically denotes use as a hate symbol."

Nice selective quoting there, jeppo. How about quoting the rest of their entry on the white Power symbol?

Symbol Type - General Racist Symbol

Also Known As "Odin’s Cross"

Traditional Use/Origins - The symbol for the Celts of ancient Ireland and Scotland; also used as a Christian symbol

Hate Group/Extremist Organization - Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists

Extremist Meaning or Representation - International white pride

Background/History:
This is one of the most popular symbols for neo-Nazis and white supremacists. First popularized by the Ku Klux Klan, the symbol was later adopted by the National Front in England and other racists such as Don Black on his Web site, Stormfront, and the racist band Skrewdriver to represent international "white pride." It is also known as Odin’s Cross.

I guess we're supposed to ignore all that stuff, and ignore all the other links and connections?

Maybe his interior decorator suggested it. What are the odds that it is just there coincidentally? Ha.

re: #66 DistantThunder

There is the point of genetic characteristics. The blonde hair, blue eyed genes are recessive, and I've read various article about how there will be few blondes left in the world by the end of the century.

Should we care to keep those characteristics viable?

That was a particularly ignorant claim. If the recessive genes were so delicate, the blondes would have been eliminated thousands of years ago. They are there, recessive or not, because people select *for* them.

In a few years you'll probably be able to build a baby on spec anyway, and the peroxide cartel will go out of business.

re: #63 Dianna

re: #35 Fjordman

Since you're so preoccupied with racism, will you also launch an equally passionate campaign against the Whiteness Studies now taught in increasing numbers of American educational institutions, sometimes with the support of public money?

What are you talking about? I cannot remember seeing a course on "White Studies" anywhere. If there had been, there'd be NYT editorials denouncing it.

Not White Studies. "Whiteness" Studies. It's more left-wing guilt nonsense designed to make American youth of European heritage feel guilty about their heritage.

With the left promoting this sort of nonsense is it any wonder the white-power types are gaining ground in some quarters?

re: #79 realwest

Try this one, realwest.

The 3 Vlaams Belang MEPs who belong to Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty are:

Philip Claeys, Koenraad Dillen, Frank Vanhecke

Here's something from the Stephen Roth Institute for the study of contemporary antisemitism and racism which seems to date from the late 1990s

POLITICAL PARTIES AND EXTRA-PARLIAMENTARY GROUPS
The Extreme Right in the Flemish Region
The far right is represented in Flanders and in Brussels by the Vlaams Blok (Flemish Bloc -- VB) independence party. The VB, which emerged in 1977 as an electoral coalition, adopted, in the mid-1980s, the racist propaganda of Jean-Marie Le Pen's Front National (French FN). Today, the VB is the fourth largest political party in the Flemish Region (where it won 12.3 percent in the 1995 regional elections), the largest in Antwerp (with 28 percent in the 1994 municipal elections), and the second largest Flemish party in Brussels (3 percent in the 1995 regional elections).

While, publicly, the VB has been striving to pass itself off as a respectable party, it remains quietly faithful to its ideological heritage. Since 1989 the VB has been the main European ally of the French FN, and in 1998 their political ties were intensified. Most of the bloc's leaders (Philip Claeys, Filip De Man, Johan Demol, Filip Dewinter, Karel Dillen, Roeland Raes, Franck Van Hecke, and others) were involved in the lectures given by the Brussels' mini-group known as Bruxelles-Identité-Sécurité (BIS), or worked on its propaganda magazine together with members of the French FN national leadership before that party split in December 1998.
The BIS was set up in 1994 by the former heads of the Parti des forces
nouvelles (PFN), a French-speaking neo-Nazi and revisionist mini-group, which was active in the 1970s and 1980s. It was the PFN which handled the French Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson's security and lecture arrangements in Brussels. Since then, the BIS has unconditionally supported the VB and called on French-speaking Brussels' residents to vote for it.
Perusal of the Vlaams Blok Magazine, the party's official monthly
publication, reveals its true political character. In 1998, the magazine
published an article favorable to Terre et Peuple (Land and People, an anti-Semitic Germano-French racist association and co-founder of Bruno Mégret's FN--Mouvement national). The article bore the signature of Roeland Raes, vice-president of the VB. Since the 1960s, Raes has been involved in collaboration between Flemish and foreign neo-fascist movements. Also in 1998, the VB monthly published an interview with Jean-Robert Debbaudt, an old member of the Wallonia SS who was one of the Belgian contacts of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP); he also put out a revisionist pamphlet on World War II, written by Léon Degrelle, and subsequently joined the VB. Later in the year Raes paid tribute to the Vlaamse Militanten Orde (VMO), the largest neo-Nazi and revisionist paramilitary group of the 1970s. Karel Dillen, the honorary president, wrote an obituary honoring the French fascist writer Maurice Bardèche, who died
in Paris in August. Dillen had translated into Dutch Bardèche's 1947 work Nuremberg ou la terre promise, the first revisionist book ever published.

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

I have been very busy the last few days and have not had time to keep up. I am very interested to see what the lizards flush from the underbrush.
I did see that supposed "Celtic cross".
I can't say I have ever saw one like that.
And I have seen many Celtic crosses.
I have no interest in associating with white supremacists.
Or any kind of supremacists.

Those that are up in arms about Charles concern for these groups should maybe step back and check this all out for themselves. I intend to.
Charles has never had a problem posting when he has made an error or was wrong about something. He corrects it quickly. Maybe some others should consider the same.
The likes of Dan Rather know what it is like to get hit by Charles's bus.
I would not want to jump out in front of it and end up looking like a complete ass.

The US is made up of many races with people from many cultures.
There is a reason they come here. And there is no reason for any of us to associate with supremacist groups in order to fight against the Jihad.
Way too much American blood has been spilled in the past fighting against such nonsense.
I for one am not going to piss on their graves by associating with such people.

re: #33 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #23 Beagle

Very respectfully, since you were already an Old Lizard when I was a Young Lizard,
I will observe that any such description allows the enemies to define the field of the game.

LGF has shown, and the lesson can be extended beyond the borders of this great Country, that you can REinvent the political scene.

An alternative to the leftistfascists AND/OR neofascist landscape MUST be found. Invented, created.

I'm not suggesting people support Vlaams Belang. I'm suggesting people overthrow the EU or run away. The EU project has gone beyond democratic restraint. The Dutch and French are going to have a treaty rammed down their throats with the same provisions they voted down.

Sharmuta: I wouldn't have used the term "moonbat," but I'd just like to point out that I've been called "Nazi" here more than once...

re: #81 itellu3times

re: #66 DistantThunder

There is the point of genetic characteristics. The blonde hair, blue eyed genes are recessive, and I've read various article about how there will be few blondes left in the world by the end of the century.

Should we care to keep those characteristics viable?

That was a particularly ignorant claim. If the recessive genes were so delicate, the blondes would have been eliminated thousands of years ago. They are there, recessive or not, because people select *for* them.

In a few years you'll probably be able to build a baby on spec anyway, and the peroxide cartel will go out of business.

Sorry, meant it was an ignorant so-called geneticist who made the claims when I saw them a few weeks ago, not meaning anything about your posting here.

The danger is islam.
islam.
islam.

I am deeply honored by the friendship of many Arab immigrants to Europe, who feared islam more than I do today ...when I still didn't understand a thing.
And I am deeply honored by the friendship of many African Africans.

I don't want to hear this white crap any longer.
It's done, finished, it's the garbage of history.

The antijihadist movement has nothing to do with this crap white heritage garbage.

I will post on this line to the end of the time I have.

Let me just say, I'd rather have a repectful tolerant Muslim as a neighbor than White-Trash-With-Money, Brittany Spears.

re: #35 Fjordman

Fjordman,

I have, and always will have a HUGE amount of respect for both you and Paul Belien. You two are single-handedly fighting a horrific battle against PC insanity in Europe. And believe me, all of us are in your corner.

There is mounting evidence that many people standing toe to toe with the anti-jihad movement in Europe are a bit scary. Further, the 'white European" argument causes me great problems.

My cousin (white) is married to a black guy. They live in London. If they moved to Norway, would he be OK for you? Would she? She is of Swiss and German extraction, is that Norwegian enough? What about him? He speaks English and pretty good German? Is this European? He is black after all...

This is the problem, when we don't talk about the character of our citizenry but talk about their race it becomes a VERY slippery slope.

I hope, at least, you understand this concern. You and I have always agreed on this site about almost everything for many years. Please understand that there are valid concerns, and this is not a witch hunt.

re: #87 Fjordman

So that makes disrespecting Charles okay?

re: #71 Fjordman

Whiteness Studies ...a misnomer...to say the least.

Ron Paul!

re: #81 itellu3times

re: #66 DistantThunder

There is the point of genetic characteristics. The blonde hair, blue eyed genes are recessive, and I've read various article about how there will be few blondes left in the world by the end of the century.

Should we care to keep those characteristics viable?

That was a particularly ignorant claim. If the recessive genes were so delicate, the blondes would have been eliminated thousands of years ago. They are there, recessive or not, because people select *for* them.

In a few years you'll probably be able to build a baby on spec anyway, and the peroxide cartel will go out of business.

It had to do with the increase in opportunities for people to marry cross-culturally and cross-racially. It had a homogenizing effect on coloring. I'll look for the article. It's one of those claims they can't prove until after they are dead.

"Jihad doesn't necessarily mean war, it means (x)..."

"The Celtic Cross doesn't necessarily mean racism, it means..."

This is the same rationale at work.

re: #84 Shemesh

Nice find. We'll add that the the mountain of evidence.

re: #96 BigPapa

Yes- the rational of Hate.

re: #32 hayseed

let me see if I have this right...white power groups that want to eject muslims from europe are bad,but printing ayats from the Koran on toilet paper is going to some how convince Muslims Islam is wrong. white power groups defacing jewish synagogues and such is bad. If your gonna take the moral high ground you better go all the way.

do you not understand private property rights and how that relates to the first amendment? you see, if i purchase a toilet seat and put it in the privacy of my own home that's infinitely different from some dumbass vandal defacing someone else's property. i'm an American. if i want to have a toilet seat with koranic verses printed on it and wipe my @ss with the actual pages of a koran in the privacy of my own home, by God I'll do it!

re: #75 BartlebyTheScrivener

Sometime, we desperately need a Russia thread. I've been thrashing through an amazing amount of stuff coming out of Moscow and St. Petersburg, and I am really worried.

re: #88 itellu3times

re: #81 itellu3times

re: #66 DistantThunder

There is the point of genetic characteristics. The blonde hair, blue eyed genes are recessive, and I've read various article about how there will be few blondes left in the world by the end of the century.Should we care to keep those characteristics viable?

That was a particularly ignorant claim. If the recessive genes were so delicate, the blondes would have been eliminated thousands of years ago. They are there, recessive or not, because people select *for* them.In a few years you'll probably be able to build a baby on spec anyway, and the peroxide cartel will go out of business.

Sorry, meant it was an ignorant so-called geneticist who made the claims when I saw them a few weeks ago, not meaning anything about your posting here.

I already got that - no problem.

re: #86 Beagle

re: #33 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #23 Beagle

Very respectfully, since you were already an Old Lizard when I was a Young Lizard,
I will observe that any such description allows the enemies to define the field of the game.LGF has shown, and the lesson can be extended beyond the borders of this great Country, that you can REinvent the political scene.

An alternative to the leftistfascists AND/OR neofascist landscape MUST be found. Invented, created.

I'm not suggesting people support Vlaams Belang. I'm suggesting people overthrow the EU or run away. The EU project has gone beyond democratic restraint. The Dutch and French are going to have a treaty rammed down their throats with the same provisions they voted down.

As you probably remember, I posted long time ao that Europe lost its soul in the Holocaust.
All the rest is a consequence. The EU is just a socialist machine built to stop the fascist beast from coming up ever again...as such it's a political monster...

THEY must go back in spirit and get back their wholeness.
There are no shortcuts, the mistakes of today are deeply rooted in the past AND the nationalistic-neonazi answer is even worse than the present.

re: #87 Fjordman

I'm still searching for the PC version of "Nazi". Fascistly Enhanced?

I have translated the first video Charles posted, from the French subtitles. I don't understand Flemish. This is the video where the Celtic Cross appears in the bookcase.

Father: It's a bit grand, hey?
Daughter: I have put it inside.
Father: Where is Europe? Show me.
(They go to the map on the table)
Daughter: There are 25 countries?
Father: Yes, you see them here. This one isn't a part of Europe. It's Turkey.
Daughter: I know a girl, a friend, with whom I had a small quarrel. She comes from Turkey.
Father: That doesn't mean that all Turks ought to come to Europe. Because there are too many of them.
Daughter: But she already lives in Europe, so it's another thing altogether.

My interpretation of the above dialogue: It is saying that Turks are not Europeans and that Turkish immigration should be restricted. Those who are already here can stay. Not a bad message and one I would agree with. However, why the focus on the Celtic Cross at the end? It could be interpreted as a racist message; however, it might also be interpreted as saying, "We're a Christian nation, let's stay that way."

Judge for yourself.

OT - (way ot..) but hilarious..

Seoul - High oil prices have forced energy-strapped North Korea to ground its fleet of ageing Antonov AN-2 biplanes..

"... The planes are capable of infiltrating deep into South Korea in case of war, Yonhap quoted the source as saying, with their capability for slow and low-altitude flight enabling them to evade radar detection..."

Well duh, of course they are slow, low-altitude flyers, the're freak'in BIPLANES... Hello? ..Bueller?

re: #82 Colonel Panik

With the left promoting this sort of nonsense is it any wonder the white-power types are gaining ground in some quarters?

Ah, that nonsense.

No, you have a point; people become frustrated and angry.

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Hmmm...only if I can get one for just being white.

/lazy

re: #106 Dianna

re: #82 Colonel Panik

With the left promoting this sort of nonsense is it any wonder the white-power types are gaining ground in some quarters?

Ah, that nonsense.

No, you have a point; people become frustrated and angry.

And desperate.

re: #74 galloping granny There was a time when I agreed with you - quite a long time, actually.
But Charles merely posted a cautionary note to those who were attending that conference that anti-Islamists would not be the only ones attending, that there would be other trying to attach themselves to the coatails, if you will, of those in attendance. He was clearly referring to Anti-Semites.
For posting this cautionary note, Charles and LGF were attack by Pamela - who as moderator of her blog, also allowed some unbeliveably nasty, personal attacks upon Charles to stand in her comments section.
She "apologized" (and no, it doesn't matter if I didn't view it as an apology) and STILL let those personal attacks on Charles stand.
And when someone says Europe should return to it's origins, Christian and White, I suspect, rather strongly, that it isn't "only" muslims against whom that is being said.
And, merely by being allowed to attend, much less "assist" in that conference, some wolves in sheep's clothing were allowed in and thereby given some legitimacy.

realwest (#79),

Videos: Vlaams Belang and Vlaams Blok Comment #1077:

#1077 Fjordman 10/28/07 9:39:44 am reply quote report

Brazilian Neocon:

Sorry, Charles, you are seriously misguided here... VB is one of the best friends of Israel and the Jewish people in the region, Jews actually are one of their major constituencies! And I care a lot about that - I live in Jerusalem now...

Thank you for that.

[Link: gatesofvienna.blogspot.com...]

Charles Johnson’s blog “Little Green Footballs” is an archetypical American blog. Charles and his commenters seem to know American politics extremely well, but know next to nothing about Europe. The standard outcry is “Europe is doomed” whenever some stupid Eurocrat appears in theater. From time to time this mantra even looks like the wishful thinking and wet dreams of many Americans.

And suddenly Charles and most of the commenters have gone into full moonbat mode, seeing ghosts and specters everywhere, especially in Vlaams Belang and Sverigesdemokraterna, thus labeling them “white supremacists” and even “Nazis”.

To me it seems that Charles is hoisting his flag of purity and innocence so high that his feet can’t reach the ground anymore. And of course the Muslim organisations such as CAIR noticed and haven’t hesitated to exploit this controversy.

re: #104 Stogiechomper

However, why the focus on the Celtic Cross at the end? It could be interpreted as a racist message; however, it might also be interpreted as saying, "We're a Christian nation, let's stay that way."

Judge for yourself.

No, it is not ambiguous at all, it is perfectly clear, it means

IF WE CAN, WE WILL BURN THEM ALIVE.

/sorry Folks, we must speak the truth here

//don't you dare mix Christianity with these [DELETED] of history

The Celtic Cross is making a comeback as interest in monastic knights, Freemasons, and other 'Dan Brown stuff' continues. Which means we can keep talking about this for a while. I'm positive the Rosslyn Freemasons didn't mean it as a racist symbol.

re: #35 Fjordman

OK Charles, since you make this to be about racism, I'd like to hear your definition of racism. The indigenous population of all European countries is white. If European countries would like to maintain the indigenous population as the majority, this by extension means a white majority. Do you think the people in, say, Norway, have the right to desire an immigration policy which ensures a traditional demographic majority, or is this racism? If so, how come non-European countries are allowed to desire the same thing without being attacked?

Since you're so preoccupied with racism, will you also launch an equally passionate campaign against the Whiteness Studies now taught in increasing numbers of American educational institutions, sometimes with the support of public money?

Hey Fjordman, How about we just keep RACE completely and utterly OUT of the immigration issue. How about we just practice a sane policy that a nation can sustain, with opportunity to all who wish to participate? Yes, have standards. Yes have quotas and limits. But have RACE involved is unfortunate.

Does this mean an American Black who wants to immigrate to Sweden should be kept out because he's Black?

re: #108 jeppo

And Hindus still use the swastika. Maybe it's the context of who is using it. If a white supremacist is using the Celtic Cross- it might be a white power symbol.

re: #97 Killgore Trout

Thank you. There's more

Attitudes to the holocaust and the nazi era

On 27 January, the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp, the European Parliament adopted a resolution in which it paid homage to all Nazi victims. It also declared that a durable peace in Europe must be based on the memory of the history of the continent, and that it rejects and condemns revisionist ideas and Holocaust denial. This resolution, which was adopted by 617 votes in favor and none against, nevertheless received 10 abstentions, including those of the three Vlaams Belang representatives: Frank Vanhecke (who happened to be president of the parliament), Koenraad Dillen (an admirer of the Belgian SS general Léon Degrelle, and the son and protégé of the founder-president and author of the first Dutch translation of a revisionist book), and Philip Claeys (formerly head of the VBJ, the party’s youth wing).

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

re: #89 Poitiers-Lepanto

We need to copy that and keep it somewhere easily accessible.

Humans are humans. What matters is ideology and culture, not "race", which is a rather limited concept anyway.

re: #110 realwest

What I have to wonder is when Pamela actually instituted moderated comments in her blog. Was it in anticipation of the backlash?

Just an observation from a white chick:

Going into an American cosmetic department there are hundreds of products designed to darken the skin, and rare products to lighten the skin, and those are for small area lightening, not overall whitening.

re: #108 jeppo

#73 Charles

There's no question that neo-Nazi scum have appropriated the Celtic Cross as one of their symbols. But the original Nazis appropriated the swastika, used for millenia by cultures from India to the Americas. The swastika today is a thoroughly discredited symbol, but the Celtic Cross is, as the ADL noted, "used widely today in many mainstream and culural contexts."

wormtonguish...

I am not convinced.

I can be convinced by evidence. I have yet to see convincing (or even persuading) evidence.

I have searched the web. I cannot find it.

I have read the blogs. On both sides.

The VB side is rational. Logical. Polite.

The "VBs are Nazis" side has used invective, slander, and foul language (including Charles).

Show me clear evidence that the VB is antisemitic. Show me clear evidence that they are racist (I don't buy the argument that "white power" equals racism). Show me that they would advocate attacks on Jews, vandalism of Jewish homes or businesses, or re-institution of the death camps. I cannot find it.

I am being asked to side with homosexuals, atheists, and abortionists in resisting the Jihadists. Heck, I'm even being asked to support an advocate of gun control and "sanctuary" cities!

I don't think it's too much to ask that we cut some slack to those who say "we like white people." Preferring your own culture, language, faith, and skin color is vastly more palatable to me than accepting that the slaughter of 40,000,000 babies (including non-white babies) is a "constitutional right."

Do I have to use the silly "I was born that way" argument?

Here's a good read.

[Link: www.vigilantfreedom.org...]

re: #104 Stogiechomper Good grief: ""We're a Christian nation, let's stay that way."
Do you not understand the import of that statement? It means no one who isn't Christian should be "here" (here being Europe). As I said above, even if it was being said in an Islamic context, it clearly excludes
Jews, Hindu's Buddists, etc. etc.
In other words it is and means what some of us call Anti-Semitic.

But Charles merely posted a cautionary note to those who were attending that conference that anti-Islamists would not be the only ones attending, that there would be other trying to attach themselves to the coatails, if you will, of those in attendance. He was clearly referring to Anti-Semites.

Let's call those people, political parasites.

So that makes disrespecting Charles okay?

Disrespecting Charles? What do you mean by that? I said from the first moment that I greatly disliked the comment about Charles and CAIR, and repeated this in several private emails where I defended both Charles and this website for being very important in the global anti-Jihad. In contrast, I have indirectly or directly been called a Nazi or a borderline neo-Nazi here repeatedly over the past few days, and I have never seen Charles denounce any of these comments, despite the fact that I have consistently been one of the most pro-Israeli bloggers on the entire European continent for years and Charles has in the past linked to many of my essays. Do you think that's fair?

re: #42 DistantThunder

re: #35 Fjordman

Europe will have to tolerate some immigration to maintain stability, but would they only be willing to consider other white people - that makes no sense. Any sane country should want the best and the brightest - and most ehtical - to immigrate regardless of skin color.

If any country wants only white immigrants, I can think of a few boatloads of white liberals from New York and San Francisco they can have.

re: #90 DistantThunder

Let me just say, I'd rather have a repectful tolerant Muslim as a neighbor than White-Trash-With-Money, Brittany Spears.

Amen!

a lot of people trying to rationalize away the White Power symbol

The reason for this is that there are a lot of hard-core racists and bigots who hang around conservative forums. Conservativism and related ideology has nothing at all to do with racism, but these people come nonetheless. I had to stop reading/posting at another fairly well-known conservative site a few years ago becasue it was infested with old-fashioned racists (mostly racist against American blacks). Please don' start challenging me with "Links!". I'm not interested in debating this. It's my opinion, take it or leave it.

I came to LGF becasue it successfully separates the ideology of Islamism (which is evil) from Muslim people (who are just people, some evil, some not). There is criticism of Islam the religion here to be sure. Much of it is grossly excessive (i.e., some commenters, not Charles) in my opinion, however Charles generally keeps the focus where it belongs.

I have been overwhelmingly gratified that Charles has reinforced his position as an upright anti-fascist who refuses to compromise on the issue of white supremacy and other deeply evil (as bad or worse than Islamism) ideological garbage.

People who don't get this probably don't belong at LGF. I've noticed that not one single long-time Lizard has tried to rationalize the "enemy of my enemy" bullshit, which is so typical of the Left. The people here over the past week which have shown tendencies to support Nazi thugs as long as they are prepared to commit wanton murder of Muslims in Europe have all been new people who I won't even call Lizards. Hopefully they'll gravitate to Stormfront or some other hate site.

Here's hoping we can keep things sane here. With Charles at the helm I believe that will continue to be the case.

re: #96 BigPapa

"Jihad doesn't necessarily mean war, it means (x)..."

"The Celtic Cross doesn't necessarily mean racism, it means..."

This is the same rationale at work.

So all the churches in the US and Europe who have Celtic Crosses are racist organizations? Talk about putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Sorry, I think some of you are getting a bit carried away.

re: #121 jwbaumann

(I don't buy the argument that "white power" equals racism).

And I think we've discovered why you're not convinced.

The Celtic Cross:

[Link: www.glasspainting.co.uk...]

The White Pride symbol:

[Link: gbgm-umc.org...]

Which of these is visible on DeWinter's bookshelf in that video?

Hint: it's not the first.

just in case a sunday cycle of sexual violence thread is needed

re: #117 Dianna

re: #89 Poitiers-Lepanto

We need to copy that and keep it somewhere easily accessible.

Humans are humans. What matters is ideology and culture, not "race", which is a rather limited concept anyway.

Thank you, too kind, I am sure that all the Lizards could have posted the same.

/yes, I do offensively imply that white supremacists are not Lizards, booohooo

I don't think it's too much to ask that we cut some slack to those who say "we like white people." Preferring your own culture, language, faith, and skin color is vastly more palatable to me than accepting that the slaughter of 40,000,000 babies (including non-white babies) is a "constitutional right."

I've read research studies that show people are more attracted to people who look like them.

re: #119 DistantThunder

Go into any asian store and you'll see tons of products to lighten skin. What is the point of your post?

re: #104 Stogiechomper

... why the focus on the Celtic Cross at the end? It could be interpreted as a racist message; however, it might also be interpreted as saying, "We're a Christian nation, let's stay that way."

Judge for yourself.

see for yourself indeed. here and here.

re: #100 Dianna

re: #75 BartlebyTheScrivener

Sometime, we desperately need a Russia thread. I've been thrashing through an amazing amount of stuff coming out of Moscow and St. Petersburg, and I am really worried.

Especially with all the smoky backroom moves Putin is making lately. This transition (or illusion of transition) of power when the new president is "elected" will be a significant event.

re: #125 bitsy

re: #42 DistantThunder

re: #35 Fjordman

Europe will have to tolerate some immigration to maintain stability, but would they only be willing to consider other white people - that makes no sense. Any sane country should want the best and the brightest - and most ehtical - to immigrate regardless of skin color.

If any country wants only white immigrants, I can think of a few boatloads of white liberals from New York and San Francisco they can have.

O, that we should be so lucky.

trust but verify
since i'm in the USA i'll watch and judge them on what they say and do now. they claim to be pro israel and nationalistic the nationalism will draw many groups to their party including some right wing racists how they deal with these types will tell me how i should look at them. remember they are the only other party besides the status quo

/just my two cents

#121 jwbaumann

I am being asked to side with homosexuals, atheists, and abortionists in resisting the Jihadists. Heck, I'm even being asked to support an advocate of gun control and "sanctuary" cities!

Good point. Something to consider ... But in this VB case, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ASKING THESE QUESTIONS ON RACISM AND DEMANDING ANSWERS!

Killgore Trout (#103),

re: #87 Fjordman

I'm still searching for the PC version of "Nazi". Fascistly Enhanced?

Instead of engaging in a pathetic game of semantics so you can sling it at people you disagree with how about just reserving calling people are; Nazis?

re: #83 Sharmuta Sorry, I still just get Charles lead in!

re: #113 Beagle

The statue on his bookshelf didn't look like a Celtic Cross to me.

re: #121 jwbaumann

The "VBs are Nazis" side has used invective, slander, and foul language (including Charles).

I never saw it.

re: #124 Fjordman

You know what? You don't answer to me here, so why don't you answer Charles.

re: #127 Pro-Bush Canuck

Ditto.

re: #112 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #104 Stogiechomper

However, why the focus on the Celtic Cross at the end? It could be interpreted as a racist message; however, it might also be interpreted as saying, "We're a Christian nation, let's stay that way."

Judge for yourself.

No, it is not ambiguous at all, it is perfectly clear, it means

IF WE CAN, WE WILL BURN THEM ALIVE.

/sorry Folks, we must speak the truth here

//don't you dare mix Christianity with these [DELETED] of history

When ambiguous things become "perfectly clear," you have the makings of an extremist movement. In light of the actual facts, your conclusions are ridiculous. However, the party who made this video should definitely either explain the use of the cross or should overtly deny that they are white supremacists and put all of these over-agitated adrenal glands to rest.

Fjordman is NOT disrespecting Charles by asking his questions, Dumbass.

re: #124 Fjordman

So that makes disrespecting Charles okay?

Disrespecting Charles? What do you mean by that? I said from the first moment that I greatly disliked the comment about Charles and CAIR, and repeated this in several private emails where I defended both Charles and this website for being very important in the global anti-Jihad. In contrast, I have indirectly or directly been called a Nazi or a borderline neo-Nazi here repeatedly over the past few days, and I have never seen Charles denounce any of these comments, despite the fact that I have consistently been one of the most pro-Israeli bloggers on the entire European continent for years and Charles has in the past linked to many of my essays. Do you think that's fair?

Fjordman, I think that we all need to bear in mind that Charles has a huge personal crisis on his hands right this minute and cut him some slack. I've followed your work for many years and find you one of the few sane voices in Europe. The last thing that you are is a Nazi.

re: #134 Irene NYC

re: #119 DistantThunder

Go into any asian store and you'll see tons of products to lighten skin. What is the point of your post?

American preferences, if the marketers are correct, prefer darker skin, (besides white skin burns and gets skin cancer)

My point was we are not obsessed with maintaining whiteness.

Charles,

You are so right about the Vlaams Belang. I lived in Brussels for 7 years and am aware of their racist views.

I have been reading LGF for years now, and have always found you to have integrity. Your instincts are spot on.

re: #141 realwest

See #1077 on that thread, and #1078 while you're there.

Britain training Iranian nuclear physicists

#114: I didn't bring up this issue. This whole "debate," if it can even be called that, has been about "white European racism." OK, but then it is only fair that we debate the whole concept of "racism," which has been largely defined by the political Left.

I'm still waiting for a reply from Charles to a question I have asked several times: Do native Europeans have the right to desire their own continued existence as peoples, or is this racism?

re: #130 Charles

The Celtic Cross:

[Link: www.glasspainting.co.uk...]

The White Pride symbol:

[Link: gbgm-umc.org...]

Which of these is visible on DeWinter's bookshelf in that video?

Hint: it's not the first.

Excellent argument, Charles. I think this evidence makes it clear that the cross in the video is more than a traditional Celtic Cross. This is exactly what I was referring to in noting that the bookcase cross does not have a long base and resembles a plus sign, so is not typical of a traditional cross.

re: #121 jwbaumann

The "VBs are Nazis" side has used invective, slander, and foul language (including Charles).

That is not true, at least not that I've seen. Charles has been careful, rational and polite.

#130 Charles

Amazing what extending one line can do.

Full disclosure: I haven't actually watched the DeWinter video because I've read his old quotes. He's not someone I support.

The problem I continue to have here is we're letting the Left get away with murder while we prosecute the other side (but there's not much difference) for assault.

re: #147 LSD

And the name calling?

A child is born

re: #146 Stogiechomper

re: #112 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #104 Stogiechomper

However, why the focus on the Celtic Cross at the end? It could be interpreted as a racist message; however, it might also be interpreted as saying, "We're a Christian nation, let's stay that way."Judge for yourself.

No, it is not ambiguous at all, it is perfectly clear, it meansIF WE CAN, WE WILL BURN THEM ALIVE.

/sorry Folks, we must speak the truth here

//don't you dare mix Christianity with these [DELETED] of history

When ambiguous things become "perfectly clear," you have the makings of an extremist movement. In light of the actual facts, your conclusions are ridiculous. However, the party who made this video should definitely either explain the use of the cross or should overtly deny that they are white supremacists and put all of these over-agitated adrenal glands to rest.

I have 42 years of life in Europe to support what I said, you have just a lot of empty words.

Wormtonguish, like all the others who are trying to pull LGF into the mud of neofascism.

We will win, and islam will have a real enemy.

The maneuvering aginst this forum is deep and serious. Fight on, Lizards !

against

You know hoods and masks are worn by lots of kids this time of year that doesn't make them KKKlansmen.
BUT
If you see a bunch of grown men wearing white gowns with a blazing bonfire in the shape of a cross... you know what you are looking at.

A video from Ireland of Enya's castle with a cross and circle on the bookshelf? Celtic Christian symbolism? sure why not?

A video from the Netherlands of Flemish Nazi's with a circle and cross on the bookshelf? You don't need to see the sheets with eye-holes cut in 'em to figure this one out either. (hint: the back yards in Belgium are too small for a good bonfire)

Unoffically, Tropical Depression #16L is probably already Tropical Storm Noel. Note the deep convection now covers the center as the hostile shear slowly weakens as the cyclone moves to the West and West-Northwest.

172400 1654N 07207W 9771 00210 0009 +230 +220 040051 053 044 005 03

51 knot flight level winds and 53 knot measured surface winds imply that #16L is now Tropical Storm Noel, and is rapidly intensifying.

re: #124 Fjordman

re: #124 Fjordman

So that makes disrespecting Charles okay?

Disrespecting Charles? What do you mean by that? I said from the first moment that I greatly disliked the comment about Charles and CAIR, and repeated this in several private emails where I defended both Charles and this website for being very important in the global anti-Jihad. In contrast, I have indirectly or directly been called a Nazi or a borderline neo-Nazi here repeatedly over the past few days, and I have never seen Charles denounce any of these comments, despite the fact that I have consistently been one of the most pro-Israeli bloggers on the entire European continent for years and Charles has in the past linked to many of my essays. Do you think that's fair?

Fjordman, please don't take offense to some off the asswipes here ... debate on this is subject is needed. Please carry on.

re: #139 LSD

#121 jwbaumann

I am being asked to side with homosexuals, atheists, and abortionists in resisting the Jihadists. Heck, I'm even being asked to support an advocate of gun control and "sanctuary" cities!

Good point. Something to consider ... But in this VB case, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ASKING THESE QUESTIONS ON RACISM AND DEMANDING ANSWERS!

And I believe they have provided answers. So far, to my satisfaction. But at this point, Charles isn't asking questions anymore. He has condemned them (as have most lizards) and wants nothing to do with them.

re: #157 Sharmuta

re: #147 LSD

And the name calling?

Just for Fun.

re: #132 Poitiers-Lepanto

Maybe, but you wrote it.

re: #153 Fjordman

#114: I didn't bring up this issue. This whole "debate," if it can even be called that, has been about "white European racism." OK, but then it is only fair that we debate the whole concept of "racism," which has been largely defined by the political Left.

I'm still waiting for a reply from Charles to a question I have asked several times: Do native Europeans have the right to desire their own continued existence as peoples, or is this racism?

No, the debate is not about "white European racism." It's about the disturbing ideologies of two political groups that have hitched a ride on the anti-Islamization movement, and whether it is smart to allow this or, as I believe, it is political suicide.

Your question is meaningless in this context.

re: #148 galloping granny

I'll second that.

Fjordman has done tremendous work for years now trying to educate people about what's happening in Europe. Some of the comments here nearly make him out to be a fellow traveler of neo-Nazis and that's just wrong.

jeppo (#108),

#73 Charles

There's no question that neo-Nazi scum have appropriated the Celtic Cross as one of their symbols. But the original Nazis appropriated the swastika, used for millenia by cultures from India to the Americas. The swastika today is a thoroughly discredited symbol, but the Celtic Cross is, as the ADL noted, "used widely today in many mainstream and culural contexts."

Which would be why when I see a swastika on an ancient church in Korea I don't think "Nazi" while when I see one on a big black, white and red banner at a white power rally I do.

Same for the Celtic cross.

A glaringly obvious distinction you seem to be having some sort of problem with.

re: #111 Geepers Geepers - it was a little difficult for me to follow that, but are you saying that Gates of Vienna is now also attacking Charles and us?!

re: #165 LSD

So fjordman is just "having fun" when he calls us ignorant and moonbats?

/I'm not the one name calling here

re: #99 Kirly

if you think wiping yor ass with the pages from the Koran will change any Muslim views be my guest.

re: #149 DistantThunder

My point was we are not obsessed with maintaining whiteness.

Easily said by people who are already "white."
;)

re: #35 Fjordman

OK Charles, since you make this to be about racism, I'd like to hear your definition of racism. The indigenous population of all European countries is white. If European countries would like to maintain the indigenous population as the majority, this by extension means a white majority.

So white muslims are ok with you? (I know that's not the case so don't bother answering that, it was rhetorical).

Instead of 'white' Dewinter could just as easily used 'Christian' - but he didn't. He chose a biometric measure - over which none of us have any control - instead of a values measure.

I'm not putting Dewinter into the 'racialist' category, which conflates race with culture - I'm putting him straight into the white supremist category, until you, Paul Belien, Dianne West, et. al., come up with something really persuasive.

re: #162 Ed mahmoud abu al Kahoul

Unoffically, Tropical Depression #16L is probably already Tropical Storm Noel. Note the deep convection now covers the center as the hostile shear slowly weakens as the cyclone moves to the West and West-Northwest.

172400 1654N 07207W 9771 00210 0009 +230 +220 040051 053 044 005 03

51 knot flight level winds and 53 knot measured surface winds imply that #16L is now Tropical Storm Noel, and is rapidly intensifying.

Whooo-Hooo

TROPICAL STORM NOEL TROPICAL CYCLONE UPDATE
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL162007
140 PM EDT SUN OCT 28 2007

REPORTS FROM AN AIR FORCE HURRICANE HUNTER AIRCRAFT INDICATE THAT THE DEPRESSION HAS STRENGTHENED TO A TROPICAL STORM WITH MAXIMUM WINDS NEAR 50 MPH. A SPECIAL ADVISORY WILL BE ISSUED AT APPROXIMATELY 200 PM EDT...AND THE SPECIAL PUBLIC ADVISORY WILL TAKE THE PLACE OF THE INTERMEDIATE PUBLIC ADVISORY PREVIOUSLY SCHEDULED FOR THAT TIME.

$$
FORECASTER KNABB

re: #153 Fjordman

Do native Europeans have the right to desire their own continued existence as peoples, or is this racism?

If you are talking about the continuation of European CULTURE then that is a laudable goal. The Islamization of Europe would be a massive disaster of epochal proportions.

If on the other hand you are talking about "keeping Europe white" then that is depraved racist filth unworthy of further comment.

What can you possibly not understand in all this?

When this all started last week, I made a very short posting on it.

A little due diligence goes a long way.

It seems that Charles got slammed for doing his due diligence and finding reason to approach these groups with caution.

Is there anything that has changed that suggests that Charles was wrong? I don't think so. If anything, the spidey-senses tingle that much more as the facade gets rolled back.

Much of the invective against Charles and LGF seems unfounded in my book, though I doubt that will matter much to those who think there isn't anything wrong with these groups.

It does, however, raise interesting questions over motivations and ulterior motives for various groups that make common cause against Islamists around the world - not all groups are motivated with good intentions. Some are downright evil.

re: #136 BartlebyTheScrivener

Yeah, it will be.

I have been convinced that Putin is going to do something blatant and ugly for over two months, now. He dissolved the Duma way too early, and there's some legislation - oh, excuse me, "administrative measures" - that are giving me cold chills.

But that's not the subject of this thread.

re: #15 Killgore Trout

...and also a lot of people trying to rationalize away the White Power symbol on Filip DeWinter’s bookshelf.

I've learned they get offended at the term White Power. They prefer the PC version; White Pride.
A lot of people have been taking great offense to my referring to others as "neoNazi supporters". Is the a PC term for neoNazi?

PC term for neoNazi? - Nationalist - Socialist

re: #127 Pro-Bush Canuck

Great post!

Fjordman,

The problem is not race. If Arab immigrants to Europe loved Europe and its culture, and were willing to participate in its development, there would be no problem. If you know European early history, you should know that this is exactly how Europe was formed in the Middle Ages, through the integration of peoples of different origins under an evolving culture.

The problem is that too many Muslims despise Europe and want to destroy its culture and replace it with something else. This is not a problem of race, but one of cultural politics. Black Hirsi Ali is for me a European because she defends European values. She is more a European than some white Europeans who give in to Islamic supremacists because they think they can gain something in the process.

Forget race. Think culture.

#164 jwbaumann

But at this point, Charles isn't asking questions anymore. He has condemned them (as have most lizards) and wants nothing to do with them.

Pure Bullshit. He has a forum here where the debate is on full force. VB should be the party to prove the "rascist" claims are invalid. There is evidence to the contrary.

re: #153 Fjordman

Fjordman,

I can't speak for Charles, but I can say that of course you can control whomever you let into your country.

I hope that this would be done by the content of their character and not the color of their skin. The fastest growing religion in Africa is Christianity, do you have a problem with black African Christian immigration?

Again, my issue is with defining acceptability of immigrant status solely by skin color.

re: #171 Sharmuta

re: #165 LSD

So fjordman is just "having fun" when he calls us ignorant and moonbats?

/I'm not the one name calling here

Let's hope so ...

How about what this Celtic Cross stands for?

From Gettysburg.

[Link: pixelpic.blogspot.com...]

FU Stormfront.

re: #140 Geepers

I don't call them neoNazi supporters just because I disagree with them, I call them that because they support neoNazi groups. We have a mountain of evidence that these groups (Sd/VB) are sympathetic to the Nazi movement. They have supporters. Those are facts.

catfight

More ...

This time on Roeland Raes, a former vice president of 'Vlaams Blok' (the predecessor of Vlaams Belang).

Report from March 2001:

In an interview on Dutch TV Raes cast doubt on the scale and the extent of the Holocaust to a degree which now leaves him open to prosecution for historical revisionism.

Asked by the presenter if he doubted whether the gas chambers had really existed on a grand scale, Raes replied: "Yes I dare to doubt that. I think that what we've been given to believe on certain points has been very exaggerated.

"The persecution and the deportation of the Jews did take place in a systematic way. But whether it was planned that everyone was going to die - well that's another question."

When asked if he was willing to accept that 6.5m Jews had been murdered by the Nazis during the second world war he was equally sceptical. "Of course it does seem that a lot of serious things did take place; with the Jews, with the gypsies and also with homosexuals. But to come up with an exact figure - well that's a completely different question."

He then went on to enrage Belgium's large Jewish community by casting doubt on the authenticity of Anne Frank's diaries

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

re: #155 Dianna

re: #121 jwbaumann

The "VBs are Nazis" side has used invective, slander, and foul language (including Charles).

That is not true, at least not that I've seen. Charles has been careful, rational and polite.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #153 Fjordman

#114: I didn't bring up this issue. This whole "debate," if it can even be called that, has been about "white European racism." OK, but then it is only fair that we debate the whole concept of "racism," which has been largely defined by the political Left.

I'm still waiting for a reply from Charles to a question I have asked several times: Do native Europeans have the right to desire their own continued existence as peoples, or is this racism?

In a global economy it's doubtful if any place can preserve it's culture without adaptation and assimilation of other cultures. The French have been fighting this for years not wanting to lose thier language to American lingo. The pressures are relentless, and it's a losing battle I'm afraid. The significant variable is speed - how fast will the change occur, and will a vocal minority be able to aggressively commandeer cultural practices that favor it while handicapping the traditional culture.

It's like crabgrass taking over the whole lawn.

re: #177 lawhawk

It does, however, raise interesting questions over motivations and ulterior motives for various groups that make common cause against Islamists around the world - not all groups are motivated with good intentions. Some are downright evil.

Opportunists abound and thrive when situations become "desperate".

re: #130 Charles

Yep, that cross on DeWinter's bookshelf is the same as Stormfront's "White Pride" logo cross.

Anti-Defamation League's info page on Stormfront, with the "White Pride" cross

My question to Fjordman is this:

If I am a Black American who wants to immigrate to say, Sweden, would that be a threat to VB's idea of immigration policy?

re: #169 Geepers

jeppo (#108),

#73 Charles
There's no question that neo-Nazi scum have appropriated the Celtic Cross as one of their symbols. But the original Nazis appropriated the swastika, used for millenia by cultures from India to the Americas. The swastika today is a thoroughly discredited symbol, but the Celtic Cross is, as the ADL noted, "used widely today in many mainstream and culural contexts."

Which would be why when I see a swastika on an ancient church in Korea I don't think "Nazi" while when I see one on a big black, white and red banner at a white power rally I do.

Same for the Celtic cross.

A glaringly obvious distinction you seem to be having some sort of problem with.

The swastika is also a Buddhist symbol. A couple of years ago, while I was walking in a cemetery, I came across the tombstone of a Vietnamese person. It was engraved with a large swastika. It took me aback, to say the least. I investigated and learned that Buddhists, or some factions, have used it too, and not for racist reasons.

Whereas we want to know the facts about this European political party, we should avoid JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. The evidence is beginning to point to the use of the cross as a white power symbol, and not merely a Christian one, in the video we are discussing. However, one cannot make sweeping conclusions about the Celtic Cross in all venues and contexts. Not without making an ass of himself.

re: #110 realwest

re: #74 galloping granny There was a time when I agreed with you - quite a long time, actually.
But Charles merely posted a cautionary note to those who were attending that conference that anti-Islamists would not be the only ones attending, that there would be other trying to attach themselves to the coatails, if you will, of those in attendance. He was clearly referring to Anti-Semites.
For posting this cautionary note, Charles and LGF were attack by Pamela - who as moderator of her blog, also allowed some unbeliveably nasty, personal attacks upon Charles to stand in her comments section.
She "apologized" (and no, it doesn't matter if I didn't view it as an apology) and STILL let those personal attacks on Charles stand.
And when someone says Europe should return to it's origins, Christian and White, I suspect, rather strongly, that it isn't "only" muslims against whom that is being said.
And, merely by being allowed to attend, much less "assist" in that conference, some wolves in sheep's clothing were allowed in and thereby given some legitimacy.

Realwest, Fjordman is not Pamela - not by any stretch of the imagination. HE should not be blamed for any remarks made on her site by anyone.

As far as "European, white Christian" origins, our own nation was founded almost entirely by white, European peoples who belonged to various Christian denominations. Not a single state was founded by the Jewish people, the muslim people or the Buddhist people, though some of each of those religious groups have been present in our nation since our earliest days. If I were to say "let us return to our origins" would you take it that I meant to throw out all non-white, non-European peoples?

I am sure that there are wolves in sheep's clothing present in the henhouse. Fjordman is absolutely not one of them.

Here in the US we are constantly remarking (and complaining) that all Europeans hate us. That is not true of course, though we are often misunderstood even by those who like us most of the time. That misunderstanding works both ways. EVEN if you have spent years living, rather than merely visiting, in Europe.

European Western civilization is far removed from United States of America Western civilization. We must try to understand where our European friends and allies are coming from, just as they must make a concerted effort to understand us, because if we do not do so then we are all going to lose this fight in extremely short order.

re: #35 Fjordman

OK Charles, since you make this to be about racism, I'd like to hear your definition of racism. The indigenous population of all European countries is white. If European countries would like to maintain the indigenous population as the majority, this by extension means a white majority. ...

Fjordman, or whatever your name is, you are the one making this to be about race. We may both see the threat from islam, but you seem to be motivated more by preserving the ethnic makeup of your country than anything else.

To me this is about preserving democracy, freedom of speech and classic liberal colorblind individualism - personified in the great Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Racism is judging individuals as representatives of their ethnic group. It's an ingrained part of continental European group politics. The racist and liberal democratic agendas clash.

re: #173 Irene NYC

re: #149 DistantThunder

My point was we are not obsessed with maintaining whiteness.

Easily said by people who are already "white."
;)

The comparison was to the groups that advocate for whiteness.

Perception is reality.

If you turn on a TV and see images of a rally, and then spot a truther banner, guess what? All those attending the rally are tainted (at least in my mind).

Now flip the channel to a different rally. You spot it. A swastika in the crowd. What is your perception of ALL those in the rally?

re: #193 LSD

Yes. That's the definition of racism. These people are evil racist scumbags who are worse than--or at least as bad as--Islamists.

re: #184 LSD

I hope you'll forgive me for not suffering from memory holes.

re: #186 Killgore Trout

re: #140 Geepers

I don't call them neoNazi supporters just because I disagree with them, I call them that because they support neoNazi groups. We have a mountain of evidence that these groups (Sd/VB) are sympathetic to the Nazi movement. They have supporters. Those are facts.

I'd be interested if anyone knows if they have ties with The National Bolshevik Party in Russia that's a mixture of nazism and Russian nationalism.

re: #193 LSD

My question to Fjordman is this:

If I am a Black American who wants to immigrate to say, Sweden, would that be a threat to VB's idea of immigration policy?

My question to you is Why would you want to emigrate to Sweden?

re: #128 Stogiechomper

re: #96 BigPapa

"Jihad doesn't necessarily mean war, it means (x)..."

"The Celtic Cross doesn't necessarily mean racism, it means..."

This is the same rationale at work.

So all the churches in the US and Europe who have Celtic Crosses are racist organizations? Talk about putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Sorry, I think some of you are getting a bit carried away.

All the churches... er, most of the churches in US, and surely in Europe, had the Celtic crosses when they were merely Celtic Crosses (their old symbolic meaning). That is, before that symbol was hijacked by the racist groups. Deal in reality. Anybody who now uses the Celtic cross will be likely be judged to be adhering to racist values because of the symbolism chosen, in today's meaning.

So, did the VB guy choose to put the Celtic Cross symbol on his bookshelf do so because of his Christian values, or because he valued it's new/hijacked meaning? With the rhetoric he espoused, it sure seems the later.

I'm sorry, I'm not well versed in Animal Farm math, nor do I care to learn it.

re: #173 Irene NYC

Ah...I don't think that came out as you meant it.

re: #191 Sharmuta

re: #177 lawhawk

It does, however, raise interesting questions over motivations and ulterior motives for various groups that make common cause against Islamists around the world - not all groups are motivated with good intentions. Some are downright evil.

Opportunists abound and thrive when situations become "desperate".

So can we call those type of groups political parasites - organisms that harm the organism they attach to.

MTV sets Middle East launch date

Music television giant MTV said on Sunday it will launch its first Arabic channel next month as it looks to localise its programming and capitalise on the growing influence of popular music in the Arab world.
---

Music television giant MTV said on Sunday it will launch its first Arabic channel next month as it looks to localise its programming and capitalise on the growing influence of popular music in the Arab world.

MTV Arabia will go on air at midnight on November 17 on Nilesat channel 14 and Arabsat channel 24 with the promise to showcase the region’s latest trends in youth entertainment to 190 million people.

The channel will air a mix of international and Arab music and lifestyle shows, with around 40% being locally produced, MTV said.
Story continues below %u2193
advertisement

MTV said the channel’s programming line-up includes a number of local productions that will air from launch.

The flagship local show is Hip Hop Na, a twelve-episode series which follows auditions to uncover the best local hip hop acts in four different Middle Eastern cities.

One winner from each city will have the chance to record a track that will feature on a Hip Hop Na compilation CD, produced by hosts Don Legend of Saudi rap group Jeddah Legends and Fred Wreck, a producer who has worked with international artists such as 50 Cent and Snoop Dogg.

_{/don't be a hater}

re: #194 Stogiechomper

It's a common symbol in India, pakistan, etc. The Nazi Swastika turns the other direction. They are easily to distinguish from each other and are no way related in meaning or symbolism.

re: #186 Killgore Trout

re: #140 Geepers

I don't call them neoNazi supporters just because I disagree with them, I call them that because they support neoNazi groups. We have a mountain of evidence that these groups (Sd/VB) are sympathetic to the Nazi movement. They have supporters. Those are facts.

It would be good if you could share more of this evidence with us. Like links, news stories, etc.

re: #189 jwbaumann

That's all you got? fuck...

re: #200 Sharmuta

re: #184 LSD

I hope you'll forgive me for not suffering from memory holes.

I can be a real asshole, Sharmuta.

re: #202 Shug

re: #193 LSD

My question to Fjordman is this:

If I am a Black American who wants to immigrate to say, Sweden, would that be a threat to VB's idea of immigration policy?

My question to you is Why would you want to emigrate to Sweden?

I dunno, big-titted blondes?

re: #35 Fjordman Geez, I am going to, very respectfully, suggest that you step back or away and take a long, deep breath and perhaps a drink of cool water, because when you post " The indigenous population of all European countries is white. If European countries would like to maintain the indigenous population as the majority, this by extension means a white majority. Do you think the people in, say, Norway, have the right to desire an immigration policy which ensures a traditional demographic majority, or is this racism?"
All I can say is "wow". You're asking if a nation wants to remain all white is this racism.
YES that is what you're asking.
And the answer is yes.
I would strongly and respectfully suggest you read whabbicorridor's post(s) about the difference between "racism" and "racialist" - it's different in Europe than it is here. But excluding someone who is non-white because they are non-white or excluding someone is non-Christian because they are non-Christians is something not worthy of you.
And I mean respectfully. I've read and enjoyed numerous posts of yours out here over the years. Numerous. And I admired them for their intellectual clarity.
I'm afraid the intellectual clarity of your posts has been declining as the attacks on Charles and LGF are increasing.

re: #211 LSD

re: #202 Shug

re: #193 LSD

My question to Fjordman is this:
If I am a Black American who wants to immigrate to say, Sweden, would that be a threat to VB's idea of immigration policy?

My question to you is Why would you want to emigrate to Sweden?

I dunno, big-titted blondes?

ever heard of Florida?

HE should not be blamed for any remarks made on her site by anyone.

I'm calling him out for remarks made here at LGF.

The children know Hillary has thier back. At least we don't have to worry about corruption if she's elected.

re: #203 BigPapa

re: #128 Stogiechomper

re: #96 BigPapa

"Jihad doesn't necessarily mean war, it means (x)..."

"The Celtic Cross doesn't necessarily mean racism, it means..."

This is the same rationale at work.

So all the churches in the US and Europe who have Celtic Crosses are racist organizations? Talk about putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Sorry, I think some of you are getting a bit carried away.

All the churches... er, most of the churches in US, and surely in Europe, had the Celtic crosses when they were merely Celtic Crosses (their old symbolic meaning). That is, before that symbol was hijacked by the racist groups. Deal in reality. Anybody who now uses the Celtic cross will be likely be judged to be adhering to racist values because of the symbolism chosen, in today's meaning.

So, did the VB guy choose to put the Celtic Cross symbol on his bookshelf do so because of his Christian values, or because he valued it's new/hijacked meaning? With the rhetoric he espoused, it sure seems the later.

I'm sorry, I'm not well versed in Animal Farm math, nor do I care to learn it.

You're just plain wrong, BP. Most Celtic Crosses are not judged to be racist symbols. With your scintillating logic, you are liable to judge all the little ghosts who appear at your door on Oct 31 as Klansmen because they are wearing sheets.

Charles:

Your question is meaningless in this context.

No Charles, in my view, it is anything but meaningless. This whole public exchange over the past week has been, and still is, enormously damaging to the counter-Jihad efforts, but I do agree with you on one thing: This is not just about egos, it is also about real issues. The question is which issues. My claim is that this debate exposed an anti-white bias in the West as a whole and in the Unites States in particular.

You still didn't answer my question, by the way: Do I have the right to limit immigration in order to preserve the traditional demographic majority in my country, their heritage and culture? Yes or no?

This whole discussion about neo-Nazis is clouding the real issue: Anti-Semitic Fascists already control much of Europe. It's called the European Union. Splitting Belgium, the ideological and geographical heart of the EU, will do a lot to undermine the EU and Eurabia, and this is the policy of the Vlams Block. The British participants of the CJC also agreed with this.

re: #201 BartlebyTheScrivener

It's interesting that you bring that up. I read a blog post yesterday (sorry no link) about a Nazi beheading video from Russia that was filmed a few months ago. The authour was speculating that it might be tied into the resurgence of Nazi groups throughout Europe.

Well this has been a dandy thread...I think I'll go and eat a pound of chocolate truffles to calm my nerves.

The Nazi Joke Book

re: #210 LSD

Judging from some of your other comments, I'd say we see eye to eye on some things- so we have common ground.

/And sometimes we need *ssholes around. :)

re: #208 Stogiechomper

Look at the LGF front page yourself. Don't make me link to it for you.

re: #198 Racer X

The next question would be, what do the organizers and participants DO about said flag in their demonstration?

Make excuses?
Or show him the door?

Concerning the celtic cross and Odins cross, I've seen several people who wear a round disc with a slanted cross. One told me that it was a traditionalceltic cross. Anyone know what this is?

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Nazism is on the rise in Russia and is tolerated by Putin because it serves his purposes.

The arguments over the supposed superiority of one group over another based on the color of ones skin,or religious affiliation,is baffling to me. Human nature will not change due to skin color. The heart,and therefore the temptations to do evil,are equal in all of us regardless of skin color. It also comes as no surprise that like minded individuals prefer to keep company with those who think as they do. It also comes as no surprise to me that people of the same skin color prefer to keep company with those of their own skin color. That's not racism,it's just human nature.

The problem comes in when hate for those different than yourself,whether by skin color or religion,rises up in ones heart. If the Baptist were acting like the Muslims who rampage through the streets burning cars and such when they became offended,I'd denounce the Baptist just like I do the Muslims who do such things. Our world will never be improved by hate,or by those who see themselves as superior due to their skin color,or who hate other people due to their religion. Improvement can only come from loving one another and seeking to live in peace with one another. Now that doesn't mean peace at any cost,nor does it mean peace will be possible with people who say "convert to Islam or die".

I'd like to post a little more but it's my Mom's birthday and I've got better things to do. She's 82 today. God has been good to me to be blessed with such a great woman for a Mother,and to still have her in my life. You guys have a great day. I intend to enjoy it with Mom while I can.

re: #217 Fjordman

will do a lot to undermine the EU and Eurabia, and this is the policy of the Vlams Block. The British participants of the CJC also agreed with this.

Clarification needed...
two questions please:

1) Why did you call it Vlams Block instead of Vlaams Belang there?

2) Who is / what is "British Participants in the CJC?"

Thanks

re: #217 Fjordman

My claim is that this debate exposed an anti-white bias in the West as a whole and in the Unites States in particular.

No- we have an anti-fascist bias here in the United States.

/spell check is your friend

This may be the sad point.

"A senior Nazi visits a factory and asks the manager whether he still has Social Democrats among his workforce.
"Yes, 80 percent," comes the reply.
"Do you also have members of the Catholic Center Party?" "Yes, 20 percent," the manager responds.
"Don't you have any National Socialists?"
"Yes we're all Nazis now!"

re: #172 hayseed

re: #99 Kirly

if you think wiping yor ass with the pages from the Koran will change any Muslim views be my guest.

I never said I thought it would do anything!
and i sure as hell don't need anyone's permission!

re: #189 jwbaumann

I looked further up the thread, because it looked like Charles had been provoked. I see that he was.

And I don't disagree with his sentiments.

My skin crawls when I encounter this "supremicist" sentiment, even when veiled in softer language. The more I see (and I'm reading every link I can find, pro or con), the more I'm convinced that these parties are not allies.

re: #73 Charles
From: Answers.com

Political symbol
drawing of a nationalistic stylised Celtic cross
Enlarge
drawing of a nationalistic stylised Celtic cross
Celtic cross elements used in NATO flag
Enlarge
Celtic cross elements used in NATO flag

The cultural associations of the Celtic cross, and the sun cross from which it is derived,

have been co-opted by white nationalist and neo-fascist groups since the 1960s.

This is because of its connotations of Christianity, Western culture, and old European traditions. The symbol can also sometimes be identified with radical nationalists of a Third Positionist or Catholic nationalist persuasion.

Far right supporters usually use a basic design which is made up of simple lines, without any of the ornamental complexity of traditional Celtic crosses. In these recent adaptations, it is sometimes also called a sun wheel.

This new political connotation has almost eclipsed the traditional meaning of the symbol in France, Italy and many other European countries. In France, the symbol was adopted by the groups Occident and the Groupe Union Droit. In Italy, the symbol has been banned from being shown within stadiums, as it is considered a sign of fascism and racism.

Celtic crosses are also associated with political movements advocating greater independence or other measures with respect to Celtic minorities, such as Breton nationalism.

re: #218 Killgore Trout

re: #201 BartlebyTheScrivener

It's interesting that you bring that up. I read a blog post yesterday (sorry no link) about a Nazi beheading video from Russia that was filmed a few months ago. The authour was speculating that it might be tied into the resurgence of Nazi groups throughout Europe.

WTF kinda hooplewanky half assed UFO illuminati mason conspiracy nazi crap is that and WTF does it have to do with ANYTHING REAL we are discussing here please?

Link it

re: #207 Killgore Trout

re: #194 Stogiechomper

It's a common symbol in India, pakistan, etc. The Nazi Swastika turns the other direction. They are easily to distinguish from each other and are no way related in meaning or symbolism.

Also in the US Southwest.
Zuni and Navajo tribes used the symbol and the USArmy 45th Infantry Division used it briefly bofore changing to the Firebird. (45th Infantry Brigade now?) The Army felt they weren't that easy to distinguish or at least that easy to explain.

re: #217 Fjordman

You still didn't answer my question, by the way: Do I have the right to limit immigration in order to preserve the traditional demographic majority in my country, their heritage and culture? Yes or no?

Yes. Are you happy now?

Now answer my question: is it smart for the counter-jihad movement to make allies of parties with undeniable fascist and racist backgrounds?

I suspect you'll answer yes.

re: #129 Sharmuta

re: #121 jwbaumann

(I don't buy the argument that "white power" equals racism).

And I think we've discovered why you're not convinced.

Fair enough, Sharmuta. And if I see valid evidence that VB "white power" is connected to violence, direct racial intimidation, etc., I will change my mind.

Show me the evidence.

If a rapist's first thought in committing his crime is "she's pretty," is every guy who notices a pretty woman therefore a rapist?

Regarding Iceland, immigration and 'racism' it seems that Iceland's profound homogeneity may yield a priceless gift for all mankind.

Now isn't that ironic...

#217 Fjordman

This paragraph is the strong point in your argument:

This whole discussion about neo-Nazis is clouding the real issue: Anti-Semitic Fascists already control much of Europe. It's called the European Union. Splitting Belgium, the ideological and geographical heart of the EU, will do a lot to undermine the EU and Eurabia, and this is the policy of the Vlams Block. The British participants of the CJC also agreed with this.

People have trouble with BAD v. WORSE choices, as in deny they exist at all in many cases.

re: #232 BabbaZee

Link it

No.

re: #194 Stogiechomper

The Celtic Cross looks different, and it is different. You've been shown links proving that. Please, do not say it's the Celtic Cross.

The Stormfront people refer to it as "Odin's Cross", which is ahistorical and frankly idiotic. But what do you expect?

re: #216 Stogiechomper

re: #203 BigPapa

re: #128 Stogiechomper

re: #96 BigPapa

"Jihad doesn't necessarily mean war, it means (x)..." "The Celtic Cross doesn't necessarily mean racism, it means..."

This is the same rationale at work.

So all the churches in the US and Europe who have Celtic Crosses are racist organizations? Talk about putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Sorry, I think some of you are getting a bit carried away.

All the churches... er, most of the churches in US, and surely in Europe, had the Celtic crosses when they were merely Celtic Crosses (their old symbolic meaning). That is, before that symbol was hijacked by the racist groups. Deal in reality. Anybody who now uses the Celtic cross will be likely be judged to be adhering to racist values because of the symbolism chosen, in today's meaning. So, did the VB guy choose to put the Celtic Cross symbol on his bookshelf do so because of his Christian values, or because he valued it's new/hijacked meaning? With the rhetoric he espoused, it sure seems the later.

I'm sorry, I'm not well versed in Animal Farm math, nor do I care to learn it.

You're just plain wrong, BP. Most Celtic Crosses are not judged to be racist symbols. With your scintillating logic, you are liable to judge all the little ghosts who appear at your door on Oct 31 as Klansmen because they are wearing sheets.

Let's cut through the semantics. Is the Celtic Cross statuette on Filip's bookshelf a symbol of Christianity or a symbol of white power?

Having been on both sides of the candy jar amidst many Halloweens, I've seen very few white sheeted youngsters, and of those I never had a problem discerning between a ghost and a KKK member. If one of them had a Celtic Cross on it's hood, I'm sure I would have said "Oh my, what a nice little Christian ghost you are. Take two apples."

Where is your sense of context?

If you read pre-1940 literature on the petroleum geology of Western Wichita County, there is a Permian aged sandstone, often oil productive, found about 800 foot subsea, that is sealed by a tight (no permeability) but oil saturated lime called the Gunsight limestone, that was called the 'Swastika sandstone'. Since WW2, it is called the Gunsight sand.

Relevance, not much.

re: #235 jwbaumann

Charles has been putting up evidence for days, and so have many other Lizards in the threads on Charles' posts on the matter. Do your own homework yourself.

/oh- and nice strawman

re: #121

I don't buy the argument that "white power" equals racism. [...] I am being asked to side with homosexuals, atheists, and abortionists in resisting the Jihadists.

There's a split, isn't there?

I'd be proud to have Ayaan Hirsi Ali stay in my home, and would stand outside the door with my shotgun while she slept. I'd move if you ran the town.

re: #217 Fjordman

Splitting Belgium, the ideological and geographical heart of the EU, will do a lot to undermine the EU and Eurabia, and this is the policy of the Vlams Block. The British participants of the CJC also agreed with this.

Yes, yes it certainly will. It will do a lot to mitigate the raving nutty crazed hyper power of the EU.

And after that is taken care of, after Belgium is split, the Flemish have their own country, what next? Who pays the fiddler? Who is next to be thrown out who doesn't fit the VB's definition of 'European'?

To be frank, this is what scares the hell out of me. Because, as MANY of us have been saying for a LONG time, Europe could swing extreme right in a heartbeat due to the lack of viable answers being provided by the PC-stoopid EU.

This is why the Stormfront Statue on Dewinter's bookshelf is a big problem to me.

re: #197 DistantThunder

Just an observation from a white chick:

Going into an American cosmetic department there are hundreds of products designed to darken the skin, and rare products to lighten the skin, and those are for small area lightening, not overall whitening.

The comparison was to the groups that advocate for whiteness.

Gee, you take an observation from "a white chick" about a business that doesn't cater to non-white immigrant communities in the first place and then claim that all this was supposed to be a comparison to groups that advocate for whiteness?

Now I can't decide if this was meant to be funny or insulting.

One thing that is obvious about VB and its serious face-lift to try to disguise its white supremacist and neo-nazi foundations and leanings - and which has not been mentioned up until now - is quite simply money.

In Belgium - as in France, where I happen to live - political parties are granted millions of euros in subsidies by their respective governments...on the condition of not being racist and/or anti-semitic.

VB is attempting to walk a fine line between receiving those millions of euros and not alienating that part of their electorate which either has no problem with a criminal ideology - or is unable to see it for what it really is.

While this does not explain all of the obfuscation, it certainly goes a long way in explaining why it's superficially so difficult to identify VB for what many of us here believe it to be: pretty much the same old Nazi whore dressed in 'respectable' dress - someone you could even take home to meet the folks - if your folks happened to be ordinary volk looking for a quick fix for some very real problems, and not too particular as to some of the more unsavory things that come with the deal.

Sound familiar...?

Art with Nazi links raises questions for new museum

As its name implies, the new Man at Work museum at the Milwaukee School of Engineering is designed to celebrate the nobility of physical labor through the ages. But the engineer and the industrialist who run the museum have included artworks made to glorify the construction projects of the Nazi regime, art historians say.

The Grohmann Museum at the corner of State St. and Broadway houses a collection of art donated to the Milwaukee School of Engineering by Milwaukee industrialist Eckhart G. Grohmann. The collection includes hundreds of pieces, some from as early as the 16th century.

The museum, which opened to the public Saturday, seems to have stumbled into a complex, controversial subject that the museum world has been coming to terms with for decades: When is it appropriate to exhibit art produced under the Nazis? How open should a museum be with its visitors about Nazi connections? What are the moral responsibilities of artists working under repressive regimes?

The Grohmann Museum features a 700-piece trove of paintings and sculptures, some dating from the 16th century, that were collected by Milwaukee industrialist Eckhart G. Grohmann and donated to the school. To most eyes, the peasant scenes and industrial landscapes will not appear overtly political or sinister.

But the most represented artist in the collection, Erich Mercker (1891-1973), was commissioned directly by Hitler's government to create images of the Third Reich's expanding infrastructure.

One of the 81 Mercker works in the collection shows laborers cutting stone bound for the Chancellery in Berlin, the Reich's seat of power, and others depicting bridges of the Autobahn, one of Hitler's proudest achievements.

At least two other artists represented in the collection also have Nazi ties.

re: #241 Ed mahmoud abu al Kahoul

If you read pre-1940 literature on the petroleum geology of Western Wichita County, there is a Permian aged sandstone, often oil productive, found about 800 foot subsea, that is sealed by a tight (no permeability) but oil saturated lime called the Gunsight limestone, that was called the 'Swastika sandstone'. Since WW2, it is called the Gunsight sand.

Relevance, not much.

Hmmm, found it called Swastika sand in Concho County:

LECLAIR #1 TICKLE
CONCHO COUNTY, TEXAS

Spud Date: November 12, 2006
Completion Date: November 22, 2006

Casing: 8-5/8” @ 118’

TD: 3020’ (drilling contractor)
3018’ (PSI)

Status: PLUGGED AND ABANDONED

Hydrocarbon shows: 2528’-38’ (Harkey sand): white-gray sandstone, fine-coarse grain, sub-ang-sub-round, silica cement, 30% bright yellow-green flo, good petroleum odor, fair yellow dry ring, 280 units hotwire.

2708’-19’ (Camar sand): white-brown sandstone, fine-coarse grain, well sorted, silica cement to some unconsolidated, 90% moderately bright yellow-green flo., good milky cut, strong odor, good yellow dry ring, 800 units hotwire.

DSTs: Harkey sand: 2530’-69’, open with weak blow at the surface, recovered 5’ FO, 85’ G&OCM, 90’ SW, IFP 21#-58#/30“, FFP 63#-109#/60”, ISIP 1114#/60”, FSIP 1111#/120”.

Camar sand: 2709’-22’, open with weak blow at the surface, recovered 100’ weak gas, 3’ GCM, IFP 24#-25#/30”, FFP 23#-23#/60”, ISIP 377#/60”, FSIP 682#/120”.
SIGNIFICANT FOMRATION APPROX. IN-HOLE DEPTH ACTUAL DEPTH
T/Tannehill sand (if present) 1120’** 1118’
B/Saddlecreek lime 1200’ 1204’
T/ Flippen sand (if present) 1305’ Absent
T/Hope sand (if present) 1455’ 1352’
T/ T/Ivan lime 1600’ 1652’
T/Homecreek lime 2015’ 1998’
T/Ranger lime 2120’ 2118’
T/Winchell lime 2260’ 2152’
B/Palo Pinto lime 2415’ 2388’
T/Upper Cross Cut sand 2425’** 2392’
T/Harkey sands 2485’* 2489’
T/Upper Capps lime 2695’ 2702’
T/Camar sand 2705’* 2708’
T/Lower Capps lime 2735’ 2744’
T/Goen lime 2890’ 2890’
T/Marble Falls 3040’ NDE
T/Detrital 3185’ NDE
T/Ellenburger 3235’** NDE
Projected TD 3350’ NDE

Significant Formations:

Tannehill sand: 1118’-30’, poorly developed, shaley sand, no show, no CDN log.

Flippen sand: Absent

Cook sand: 1282’-95’: poorly developed sand, no show, 2’ of 13% porosity in the base with microlog permeability, calculates wet, non-productive.

Hope sand: 1352’-62’: poorly developed sand, trace effective porosity (15% and 10%) no permeability, no show, calculates wet and tight.

Lower Hope sand: 1400’-1406’, thin clean sand, 9% porosity, 14 ohms resistivity, calculates wet, non-productive, no permeability.

Upper King sand: 1456’-70, poorly developed and shaley, 11% porosity, no permeability, 14 ohms resistivity, calculates wet, no show.

Swastika sand: 1544’-58’, thin shaley sands, tight 10%), no permeability, no show, non-productive

Palo Pinto sand: 2298’-2312’, well developed sand good permeability, 10%-12% porosity, 5 ohms resistivity, no physical show, hotwire increase to 215 units, calculates wet.

Upper Cross Cut sand: 2335’-50’, clean sand, 5%-14% porosity, 3.5 ohms resistivity, no show, calculates wet.

re: #217 Fjordman

This whole discussion about neo-Nazis is clouding the real issue: Anti-Semitic Fascists already control much of Europe. It's called the European Union. Splitting Belgium, the ideological and geographical heart of the EU, will do a lot to undermine the EU and Eurabia, and this is the policy of the Vlams Block. The British participants of the CJC also agreed with this.

I wholeheartedly agree that the EU is anti-semitic and facist (although I use the term 'totalitarian'). And I wholeheartedly agree with the separatist agenda of the Vlaams Belang.

But this:

This whole discussion about neo-Nazis is clouding the real issue:

is where we have to part company.

Fjordman, it's the same issue. If Vlaams Belang associates itself with members who advocate one totalitarian meme while organizing against another, it's six of one, half dozen of another. Totalitarian is totalitarian.

It is NOT that we are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. It's that evil and vile are vile and evil. Both words use the same letters in a different order.