LGF

-RetweetAnother Vlaams Belang Whitewash

Fri, Dec 7, 2007 at 9:54:33 am PST

Baron Bodissey of Gates of Vienna would still like you to believe that black is white: Gates of Vienna: That Fascist Black Rat.

They continue to cling to the absurd stance that all of the white nationalist symbols in Vlaams Belang youth magazines, web sites, videos, etc. are ... meaningless. This time they try to explain away the cartoon image of a black rat wearing an Odin’s Cross armband, that appears in several issues of a VB publication for young members.

Amid a lot of diversionary, off topic chatter about one of the columns for which the rat character was used as an illustration, Baron Bodissey posts this image of the rat:

This image is symbolic of the entire argument of the pro-Vlaams Belang side in this controversy—because it’s incomplete and deceptive. What Gates of Vienna didn’t show you: the part of the image that was cropped out, which includes ... again ... the white supremacist symbol known as the Odin’s Cross:

There’s much more information on the rat symbol and its use by European fascist groups at Eurofascism.info, in a specific response to the Gates of Vienna post: When a black rat is washed white.

About the group who published the poster above:

GUD (Groupe Union Défense), a student group, founded in 1969, is active in Paris and Nice, where it harasses anti-fascists, as well as in smaller, university cities. It is headed by Frédéric Chatillon, the son-in-law of a FN regional councilor, Katherine d’Herbais. Chatillon is the owner of the public relations and publishing company Riwal. It should be noted that Syrian money helped Riwal print Holocaust-denying material such as the books of Roger Garaudy (see below) and Jürgen Graf (see Switzerland). The company was instrumental in disseminating Garaudy’s book The Founding Myths of Israeli Politics and translating it into Arabic. The translation was done by the Iraqi dissident Jawad Bashara, a notorious anti-Semite. Riwal was also the publisher of FN’s official newsheet Français d’abord (as well as the anti-Semitic newsletter Faits et Documents (see below), until the party split.

Another GUD activist, Thomas Lagane is currently the Front National de la Jeunesse second-in-command. GUD is a violent group with a record of aggression against foreign and Jewish students on university campuses. One of its most notorious members, Yvain Pottiez, is Bruno Mégret’s bodyguard. Another, Axel Loustau, was a FN candidate in the 1997 general election.

UPDATE at 12/8/07 10:50:23 am:

Baron Bodissey is demanding an apology for this post; here’s my reply:

1) I did not accuse Baron Bodissey of cropping the rat image. I wrote that his post contained a cropped image, and that is indisputably true.

2) I did not imply that the image was a Vlaams Belang image. In fact, I posted two paragraphs of information about the group who did create it, the GUD, specifically so that people would not assume it was from the VB.

3) Both of the points above are very clear from reading my post.

4) There will be no apology.

One more note to the Baron: it’s time for you to start treating your European “sources” with a little more skepticism. They burned you with their latest attempted cover-up, and now you have egg all over your face. The person you should be asking for an apology is the one who foisted that cropped image on you.

Advertisement

729 comments

  • Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 zombie  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:55:42am

Here we go again.

Strap yourselves in!

2 zombie  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:56:25am

I fear this argument will never end.

3 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:56:44am

test?

4 bulwrk  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:57:03am

crushing the golden arches goes way over the line.

5 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:57:06am

Now the mask really slips! Islamofascists are not the enemies of europe- America is!

6 cptham  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:57:15am

Filthy Storm Troopers

7 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:57:18am
8 Black George Bush  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:57:29am

I've managed to stay out of this one.

9 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:57:38am
The story starts with Raymond Macherot, an excellent Belgian cartoonist. He drew black rats very much resembling the fascist rat Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs found.

I had to read that twice...

10 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:57:39am

They're beyond hope.

11 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:58:26am

test again.

12 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:59:19am

I did it!

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

13 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:59:38am
14 Servo Cicero  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:00:52am

Only a big, fat, dirty, rat...would stab a guy in the back.

How bout some cheese, RAT!

15 bulwrk  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:01:45am

re: #12 Maximu§

when I click on your avatar it says you're not in the repository

16 coquimbojoe  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:02:12am

So, it seems that if I were wearing a Waffen SS uniform yelling Seig Heil, with a sandwich board describing how I want to keep europe and/or America white, Baron might not see anything wrong with that?

Again with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy, if the front porch of your house falls off and your flag with Odin's Cross falls onto the burning cross on your lawn, you might be a racist...

17 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:02:15am

Next they'll be telling us that the rat is really nothing more that a tribute to Ed "Big Daddy" Roth.

18 Spiny Norman  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:02:31am

re: #9 Ben Hur

The story starts with Raymond Macherot, an excellent Belgian cartoonist. He drew black rats very much resembling the fascist rat Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs found.

I had to read that twice...

They've gone fully into Bizarro World now. It's official.

19 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:03:15am

re: #13 buzzsawmonkey

Great minds...

20 kynna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:03:25am

It's too bad so many people feel their only choice is between islamofascism and white supremicism.

Neither one of those choices offers a future that is anything less than bloody and violent. History proves it.

There are other ways.

21 Owl  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:04:39am

what the hell? what's with the squashing of Lady Liberty?

22 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:04:42am

Interesting they are so upset we will not support them when this is what they really think of us anyways.

Screw your anti-Americanism, eurofascists! Whine to China for allies. You'll get no support from me, and I'll be damned if I ever send a child of mine to save your sorry, pathetic, hateful, eurocentric asses.

23 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:04:54am

What's up with all those US related symbols on which the rat is resting? The Golden Arches of McD's? Donald Duck? and even the Statue of Liberty?

24 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:05:09am

re: #18 Spiny Norman

re: #9 Ben Hur

The story starts with Raymond Macherot, an excellent Belgian cartoonist. He drew black rats very much resembling the fascist rat Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs found.


I had to read that twice...

They've gone fully into Bizarro World now. It's official.

I hope Ed is happy.

25 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:06:23am

re: #21 Owl

what the hell? what's with the squashing of Lady Liberty?

They think as much of us as they do the islamofascists.

26 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:06:32am
27 LionOfDixon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:07:58am

What the hell does that rat have against Mickey D's and Donald Duck?

28 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:08:13am

re: #23 lawhawk

They hate America as much as they hate muslims.

In their minds, if it ain't european- f*ck it.

29 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:08:29am

re: #24 NJDhockeyfan

re: #18 Spiny Norman


re: #9 Ben Hur

The story starts with Raymond Macherot, an excellent Belgian cartoonist. He drew black rats very much resembling the fascist rat Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs found.

I had to read that twice...

They've gone fully into Bizarro World now. It's official.

I hope Ed is happy.


It's just bad writing.

They're not calling Charles a fascist.

30 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:08:57am

re: #1 zombie

You may be right.

I'm going to Italy over Christmas; I haven't been there since 1999 &
when I'm back I'll post how it seems different, if it does.

I used to live there.

31 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:09:24am

If i want to resize a picture for my avatar, what size should it be?

resize/resample?

32 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:10:07am

People! They hate America, but want our support.

They are as hateful and xenophobic as the islamofascists.

33 Anthony (Los Angeles)  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:10:08am

re: #13 buzzsawmonkey

Looks to me like Ed "Big Daddy" Roth's Ratfink has found a new gig...

Wo, someone who remembers Rat Fink!

34 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:10:33am

They label themselves rats, and have something against Mc Donald's, Basketball, and Liberty?

Even if they WEREN'T Fascists I wouldn't want to hang with them.

35 jcm  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:10:34am

OT
Work
vs.
Prison

Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up, this should make things a little bit clearer.

PRISON
WORK

You spend the majority of your time in a 10X10 cell
You spend the majority of your time in an 8X8 cubicle

You get three meals a day fully paid for
You get a break for one meal and you have to pay for it

You get time off for good behavior
You get more work for good behavior

The guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you
You must often carry a security card and open all the doors for yourself

You can watch TV and play games
You could get fired for watching TV and playing games

You get your own toilet
You have to share the toilet with some people who pee on the seat

They allow your family and friends to visit
You aren't even supposed to speak to your family

All expenses are paid by the taxpayers with no work required
You get to pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners

You spend most of your life inside bars wanting to get out
You spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars

You must deal with sadistic wardens
They are called managers

You can talk about Jesus, and even participate in Bible Studies
You'd better not talk about Jesus or bring a Bible if you want to keep your job!

36 wilinsky  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:10:51am

At the top in the ad for the book, 'Fascism is alive and well. Today it feasts on a new myth: -the myth of Eurabia.' What's up with that? I wonder if they have even read Bat Yeor.

37 WriterMom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:11:35am

Charles-this little nugget in the comment section might make a funny rotating title?

Little Green Footballs is to political blogs what Spinal Tap is to rock bands.

38 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:11:45am

re: #15 bulwrk

re: #12 Maximu§

when I click on your avatar it says you're not in the repository

What the Hell is a "repository"?

39 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:12:03am

Wasn't that the rat off of 'Beakman's World'?

I loved that show...

40 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:12:06am

re: #20 kynna

I remember being at the Vatican as a young man, and seeing prople from all over the world getting along in the true spirit of brotherhood. I thought at the time, "this is a great advance in human behavior."

Yes there are other ways.

41 danger close  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:12:15am

Keep after it Charles.

Transparency, whether introduced or voluntary is almost always a good thing. Unfortunately there are many who believe otherwise.

42 WriterMom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:12:23am

re: #38 Maximu§

DON'T EVER ASK ABOUT THE LGF REPOSITORY.

43 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:12:23am

Cultural supremecy.

Against Californication.

I'm on the fence about that.

44 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:12:43am

re: #38 Maximu§

re: #15 bulwrk


re: #12 Maximu§

when I click on your avatar it says you're not in the repository


What the Hell is a "repository"?

It is probably because of the symbol you use for your final S

45 johnny_t  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:13:37am

From their website comments:

"FYI, here's my latest takedown of the minions from Leftist Green Footballs"

We are leftists? Somehow I think the left and the right meet when they go to the extreme. These dudes are extreme. Good work Charles, keep it up; shine the light of truth on these cockroaches.

46 Kaboomboom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:13:45am

#21 Owl

what the hell? what's with the squashing of Lady Liberty?

Well socialists, "national" or otherwise, are about control and denying freedom. Freedom and capitalism are an anathema to them.

47 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:13:47am

I want a bigger avatar.

(haha!)

48 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:13:57am

re: #21 Owl

what the hell? what's with the squashing of Lady Liberty?


The far right tribal nationalists, whether they are Walloons or Flemish do not like individual freedoms. That stands in the way of Apartheid. They are anti war and some are virulently anti-capitalist. It doesn't fit the game plan outlined by Marcel Bardeche at the end of "Nuremberg, the Promised Land". Trust me, you don't want to read it. They are also anti-war underneath their "anti-islamofacism" cloak because that might drive more immigrants their way, and sap efforts to build "tribal fortress Flanders".

49 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:14:09am

re: #30 Ojoe

re: #1 zombie

You may be right.

I'm going to Italy over Christmas; I haven't been there since 1999 &
when I'm back I'll post how it seems different, if it does.

I used to live there.

Did you know the Italian ex-President Francesco Cossiga is a troofer?

50 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:14:24am

re: #44 WrathofG-d


Got it, Thanks WoG.

BTW: Have you put up your christmas lights yet?

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

51 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:14:50am

I think it has to do with American culture being all the rage and displacing their local cultures.

You know, like French farmers against McDonalds.

52 Anthony (Los Angeles)  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:15:08am

I'm a little concerned about Eurofascism.info's blending of Eurabia with Vlaam, the SD, and other White Power groups. It looks like they're equating any opposition to the Islamization of Europe with White power groups, which is wrong.

And It's really saddening to see GoV go down the Loony Tunes drain like this.

53 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:16:18am

re: #51 Ben Hur

I think it has to do with American culture being all the rage and displacing their local cultures.

You know, like French farmers against McDonalds.

I'm right.

It's for their yute magazine.

54 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:16:23am

re: #49 NJDhockeyfan


Oh well, no shortage of fools everywhere you look.

55 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:16:36am

re: #50 Maximu§

um...excuse me?

56 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:17:36am

You know, like all these yutes around the world dressing like hip-hop gansta thug style.

When you see it it looks ridiculous.

That's what they mean.

57 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:17:48am

The eurofascists are no better than the islamofascists they claim to oppose- just as xenophobic and hypocritical. Boy- did they really try to pull a fast one on us. Hope our American bloggers are happy with their new friends- their friends who in reality hold them in contempt but are more than willing to let them sacrifice themselves, their reputations, helping those who hate them. Talk about useful idiots! gov, et al- you take the cake.

58 FQ Kafir  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:18:07am

VB, the Lizards are watching you.

59 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:18:14am

Charles, there's also an article at Front Page Mag that ties into this as well, it's about Buchanan's new book. We have our roots to evil philosophy in the US as well, and it's why Buchanan is marginalized to MSNBC, slime pit of lefties that it is.

60 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:18:42am

zombie,

I fear this argument will never end.

I fear you are correct. These people have already revealed themselves and their affiliations. Now they seem to be trying to defuse a bomb that has already gone off.

Very odd.

61 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:18:54am

It's against American low brow cultural influence of the youth.

62 soccerdad  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:19:12am

just a test of my avatar...

63 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:19:24am
64 WriterMom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:20:27am

re: #60 Dirk Diggler

Great picture. Giggling...

65 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:20:32am

re: #63 song_and_dance_man

Thread needs to get buried first.

/wait and see- happens every time

66 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:21:02am

Not one political leader is willing to stand up for the most powerful force for the change of good the human race has ever witnessed. No one will defend Capitalism: The free man's society.

67 WriterMom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:21:03am

re: #63 song_and_dance_man

Patience, man.

"Lord give me patience, and I want it RIGHT NOW..."

68 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:21:42am

re: #55 WrathofG-d

re: #50 Maximu§

um...excuse me?

No matter, just wondering...my house looks like the Grizzwald house. Thousands of lights and inflated decorations on the lawn. I guess I used up all my carbon-credits for the next 20 years.

My elec meter is spinning wildly, but I can't let the neighbors outdo Maximu&sect. This is war!

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

69 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:22:54am

re: #68 Maximu§

Oh. I see now.

No, Wrath is Jewish. We dont' do Xmas lights. I have been lighting a very nice hanukkia I've had since I was 5 for the last three days though.

70 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:23:35am
71 gambini  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:23:50am

Ok, ok, let's forget signs and runes.

-what about Dewinter and other high-rank Blokker trying to lay flower ont the graves of SS Flemish?
-What about the shady past of MOST the leaders?
-what about the VMO past of Dewinter?
-etc.. etc...
please, take a look at this excellent documentary if you're still on the fence--->





72 victor_yugo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:23:57am
73 zombie  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:23:59am

After reading all the links, I'm thinking of some aphorisms:

"Don't throw good money after bad."

"Cut your losses."

"Know when to stop digging."

"Face the music."

Look, some bloggers unwittingly got involved with some seriously distasteful neo-fascists and/or racists, but when this was pointed out to them, instead of realizing their blunder, cutting all ties, apologizing and starting afresh, they dug in their heels and started defending the indefensible. it's sad to watch. With each new round, they become more and more committed to a position that they themselves never intended to have anything to do with.

Either they will ride the bus right off the cliff, or they will finally bail out way after it was too late.

A tragedy.

74 Old Tanker  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:24:02am

Maximus,

I just noticed, I was supposed to head for the 3rd ACR when a little war broke out and my deployment got changed, never did get to Germany...

75 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:24:05am
76 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:24:15am

Notice that he links to this picture from the VJW. Note the symbol in lower right of the crossed hammer and sword. It's another Nazi symbol. See the sections on National Resistance and the Alder Flag.

77 Yank in the EU  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:25:00am

Yes, again, it's publically known that the Odin's Cross is a white power symbol. And when people including in Flanders view a Celtic Cross, such as at churches and cemetaries, there is no confusion about the issue. The counter-arguments to this evidence are, thus, quite silly.

Moreover, those denying what LGF points out as visual evidence (aside from, e.g., the Holocaust denial by the VB's VP on television in 2001, the honoring of Flemish Nazi collaborators, the support for open neo-Nazis such as the BNP, the NPD, Haider, etc.) are often defending in most explicit terms the moral legitimacy of the white nationalist / Blood and Soil ideology, as if the matters are unrelated topics. The cross issue is one small part in the evidence that is indisputable, but aside from that we fundamentally reject (as least I know I do) the racial conception of nationalist which they typically defend in a straightforward fashion.

Well, I'm out for an evening in Flanders. Have fun!

78 WriterMom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:26:45am

re: #75 buzzsawmonkey

That's what I was thinking, but then I thought it might be too disgusting. LOL.

79 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:27:15am

re: #73 zombie

After reading all the links, I'm thinking of some aphorisms:

"Don't throw good money after bad."

"Cut your losses."

"Know when to stop digging."

"Face the music."

Look, some bloggers unwittingly got involved with some seriously distasteful neo-fascists and/or racists, but when this was pointed out to them, instead of realizing their blunder, cutting all ties, apologizing and starting afresh, they dug in their heels and started defending the indefensible. it's sad to watch. With each new round, they become more and more committed to a position that they themselves never intended to have anything to do with.

Either they will ride the bus right off the cliff, or they will finally bail out way after it was too late.

A tragedy.

I agree Zombie, this is a case of pride and passion whelming reason - but like Buchanan's new book, it can't be just accepted because the wrapping paper looks pretty. It must be countered because it is a poison pill that will murder the body politic of mainstream conservativism if swallowed.

80 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:28:09am
81 Yank in the EU  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:28:10am

#77: oops, man, I need the edit function: "nationalism"

82 wanumba  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:28:19am

Could it be that the Euro fascists fell for the Liberal Left stereotype and believes that the USA calls of the "South will rise again " and all the Leftie portrayals of Southerners was actually something in harmony with what they envision?

Bet they can't figure out what's going on. Must be a communication snafu. Yeh, couldn't possibly be the fundamental mistake of relying on the International Herald Tribune (owned by NYT), the NYT, WaPo and CNN , AP and Reuters to determine the true pulse of America. AMerica is a land of immigrants - it has NEVER been homogenous, ever, unlike those European countries.

83 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:29:32am

Speaking of which. Pat Dollard's Young Americans film has been converted to a Showtime mini series. They are already on Episode #3.

I am really looking forward to this and hope it does not fall apart.

84 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:29:56am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I used to live next to Nikki Sixx and he used to have this on each of his harleys (sweet bikes) and hang this in his garage.

This was in the 1990s. I wonder if he was just against the Islamists?

85 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:30:09am

I especially like the rat smashing Scrooge McDuck - a symbol of Disney & a symbol of Capitalism.
/Karl Marx No, Carl Barks Yes!

86 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:30:25am
87 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:31:04am

re: #74 Old Tanker

Maximus,

I just noticed, I was supposed to head for the 3rd ACR when a little war broke out and my deployment got changed, never did get to Germany...

Its a great unit, with a proud history and I was proud to spend (2) years in it. My oldest boy is joining up next August..he is already in the delayed entry program.

God Forbid, he wants to be a Tanker instead of a Scout...Where did I go wrong? j/k

WoG...Happy Hanukkia to you and your family. At least your electric meter is'nt ready to fly off of its moorings.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

88 Metalstorm  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:33:25am

You know Charles, much as I respect you, you really have got to give this a rest. Like I said in my letter to you last month, if a man falls off a cliff and is hanging by a bush, he has a choice if a known racist offers to save his life and pulls him up. He can either clasp the offered hand or congratulate himself on his righteousness of spurning the racist while he falls to his death on the rocks below.

Europe is in terrible danger - they are about to be swallowed up and obliterated by Islam. They see the looming catastrophe but have NOWHERE to turn for help. Their leaders do worse than nothing - they penalize and punish the natives for daring to stop their destruction. Those that can migrate to other places but the vast majority are trapped by circumstance.

I am interracial and my children are nearly 3/4 Asian, and yet I support the European's right to preserve their culture and race. Why should they not be given the right of cultural and Caucasian racial self-preservation when every other culture and race have that right enshrined by multiculturalism?

If racists are the only ones willing to preserve European society, can we blame the Europeans if the Nazi ideology seizes control again when people like you refused to help them when your influence could've moderated the resistance?

We have a choice - an alliance of ALL groups against a common foe that will destroy us all, or, hang separately.

89 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:33:35am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Notice that he links to this picture from the VJW. Note the symbol in lower right of the crossed hammer and sword. It's another Nazi symbol. See the sections on National Resistance and the Alder Flag.

Very interesting. More than I thought I'd ever know about the flags of Nazis & related scum.

90 Q-Burn  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:36:44am

re: #84 WrathofG-d

Maybe Nikki Sixx is just an idiot? Plenty of evidence for that. As for Odin's Cross, you don't have to go Belgium. I saw one next to a swastika and "KKK" (all in the same hand) in a New Mexico restroom off I-10 a couple weeks ago..

91 big L  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:37:07am

87 Maximus-where did you get that paragraph mark in your name?

Also, turn over a rock in EUrope and all these layers fo roaches scuttle out--I am grossed out...I had no idea all this
was going on. There was a poster here long ago that said that
europe was full of white supremacists.

92 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:38:33am

re: #88 Metalstorm

Sorry, the end of times apocalyptic vision of Europe is just false. If they are at war within twenty years it won't be due to immigration or Islam, they will be at war with themselves, just like the last two times. Again it will be over tribal nationalism.

93 ContraJihadi  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:39:43am

Those Odin's Cross and Rat people don't like America very much, do they? Americans, even those who live in Virginia, would be wise to pay more attention.

94 coquimbojoe  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:39:57am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Notice that he links to this picture from the VJW. Note the symbol in lower right of the crossed hammer and sword. It's another Nazi symbol. See the sections on National Resistance and the Alder Flag.

The crossed hammer and sword are reversed on the Vlaams thing as opposed to the Alder flag, it has the sword on front...So, obviously it can't be the Nazi symbol...

/Tools.

95 Old Tanker  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:40:17am

re: #87 Maximu§

God Forbid, he wants to be a Tanker instead of a Scout...Where did I go wrong? j/k

Wrong? what re you talking about? We used to call scouts track grease ;-)

96 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:40:49am

re: #88 Metalstorm

So would you replace one Facism with another? Is the Nazi whites-only culture your promoting any better than the Islamic Sharia culture?

They both sound like bad news to me and history proves my point.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

97 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:41:46am

re: #93 ContraJihadi

Those Odin's Cross and Rat people don't like America very much, do they? Americans, even those who live in Virginia, would be wise to pay more attention.

You know I challenged someone who lives in Virginia to show their solidarity with their argument and support of VB by wearing a Celtic Cross tee-shirt to church Sunday, but I doubt they will take me up on that.

98 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:42:25am

re: #91 big L

I hit "alt 21" and the symbol comes up.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

99 Yank in the EU  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:42:27am

A key point to keep in mind also is that turning to the white nationalists as the solution to Islamization, aside from the morality of it, is also flawed from a pure survivalist position. The white nationalists will be rejected by vast numbers of people who should be able to be convinced to fight the jihad, and thus instead of having hope at unity the majority who are against the jihad will be bogged down in a civil conflict with their extreme right. The non-racialist right-wing groups must strengthen the positions on which the VB gains major points.

100 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:43:10am

re: #88 Metalstorm

Europe is in terrible danger - they are about to be swallowed up and obliterated by Islam.

So- your answer is "A"?

If racists are the only ones willing to preserve European society, can we blame the Europeans if the Nazi ideology seizes control again when people like you refused to help them when your influence could've moderated the resistance?

This is really disingenuous. You honestly think Charles supporting white nationalism would help moderate the resistance to european islamifistation? It's just the opposite- it would cause the resistance to become more extreme, not less. Nice try.

101 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:44:08am

re: #99 Yank in the EU

Yep, the argument main: VB is a poison pill to the anti-jihadi movement, and the movement to control illegal immigration.

102 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:45:28am

re: #27 LionOfDixon

What the hell does that rat have against Mickey D's and Donald Duck?

That's Uncle Scrooge.

Anti-liberty, anti-capitalist, anti-corporate, anti-Jewish, pro-white-supremacy. But don't you see this is all a misunderstanding? We're just too ignorant of European politics to "get" it!

/

103 coquimbojoe  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:45:53am

re: #91 big L


Also, turn over a rock in EUrope and all these layers fo roaches scuttle out--I am grossed out...I had no idea all this
was going on. There was a poster here long ago that said that
europe was full of white supremacists.

I wonder if part of the proliferation of this ideology is because there is no 'right' to speak of there in Europe? Maybe they don't have a real example of a decent conservative party, and that people on the right have been demonized as Nazi's, so if they disagree with the left, in their minds they only have one way to go.

I'm just spitballing here and am ignorant as to the real situation there. (I am by no means am trying to excuse them, just looking for reasonable answers as to why people are attracted to this horrible ideology).

104 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:46:18am

Socialism is trying to embed into our own efforts at defending our democracy and capitalism. Neo Nazi's supported Arab extremists during WWII. Why would any rational person believe that Europeon Socialist groups would ally with us unless they are in a weakened position and can't do anything themselves. They will use deceit into disarming and tricking us. That how evil always gets it's power.

We hand it over.

105 Charles  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:46:59am

An interesting point to note: the Gates of Vienna/CVF/Brussels Journal crowd are trying to argue that the Vlaams Belang is a perfectly legitimate, respectable party.

But the supporters who comment here and at those blogs are arguing a very different position: that Europeans need to ally with extremist parties in order to fight Islam.

This is serious cognitive dissonance.

106 Yank in the EU  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:47:46am

re: #101 Thanos

Right, if on the other hand, this were 1930 and huge numbers of the population were enthusiastic about racial populist rhetoric, then the argument from survivalism would have much more weight. But this is a different era and many Europeans flatly reject the Blood and Soil ideology.

107 coquimbojoe  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:48:19am

re: #88 Metalstorm

Fortunately, we have not fallen off a cliff, and there are many, not all racists, available to offer a hand. I choose not to make racists my fellow travelers.

108 Kulhwch  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:48:44am

Why is the black rat w/the hammer trampling on only American symbols, like the Statue of Liberty, a basketball hoop, golden arches for McDonalds, Scrooge McDuck, etc., and then saying good riddance to the enemies of Europe?  Has Vlaams Belang as the spokesgroup for Europe declared war against America?

}:/     [If so, let them try.  We've plenty of asskicking to hand around ... ]

109 Charles  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:50:00am

re: #108 Kulhwch

Why is the black rat w/the hammer trampling on only American symbols, like the Statue of Liberty, a basketball hoop, golden arches for McDonalds, Scrooge McDuck, etc., and then saying good riddance to the enemies of Europe?  Has Vlaams Belang as the spokesgroup for Europe declared war against America?

}:/     [If so, let them try.  We've plenty of asskicking to hand around ... ]

Please note: that's not a Vlaams Belang poster. But the rat character does appear in the Vlaams Belang youth magazine.

110 WriterMom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:53:00am

re: #88 Metalstorm

Caucasian racial self-preservation

{shudder}

111 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:53:39am

Whitewash? How appropos, Charles.

112 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:54:15am

CAIR Plants. CNN Democratic Debate had CAIR Plants ask questions.

113 Maximu§  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:54:35am

re: #95 Old Tanker

re: #87 Maximu§


God Forbid, he wants to be a Tanker instead of a Scout...Where did I go wrong? j/k

Wrong? what re you talking about? We used to call scouts track grease ;-)

You dirty treadhead! Lol, at least my boy will have a ultimate body-armor. 60 tons of steel is alot of protection. He is going to Fort Irwin tomarrow for a field trip and he does PT every Thursday with the recruiters.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

114 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:54:51am

re: #84 WrathofG-d

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I used to live next to Nikki Sixx and he used to have this on each of his harleys (sweet bikes) and hang this in his garage.

This was in the 1990s. I wonder if he was just against the Islamists?

Hey now, let's not jump to conclusions. The Swastika is a Hindu symbol originally, the black-white-red coloring was caused by a mix-up at the printers, and doesn't everybody like eagles? Clearly this is a misunderstanding.

115 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:56:50am

Millions of Immigrants have risked their lives to come to America to escape the diseases of, Dictactors, Communists, and Socialists.
Why the hell would we align with them under their own ideologies that caused so many to seek refuge here?

116 realwest  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:57:36am

re: #88 Metalstorm I can understand your point about Charles posting on this so often (this is, after all, I think about the 4th thread in the last 30 or so that dealt with the subject). It is a long, hard fight.
And the fact of the matter is this: Europe has no "right" to be white - notwithstanding Fjordman's feelings on the matter. Discrimination against blacks, Asians, "brown" people, Jews, et. al. is one of the reasons Europe is in the fix it's in now.
You simply can't lie down with fascists of any stripe and not get up infested with fleas.
And who says that racists are the only ones willing to preserve European society? They may be, perhaps, the most visible, and certainly the most odious
visible NOW. That doesn't mean that the "silent majority" wants fascists back in charge.
BTW, if you are interracial and your wife is 3/4 Asian, do you mind if I ask where you live (country, obviously - I have no interest in your personal address!)?

117 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:57:52am

re: #109 Charles

re: #108 Kulhwch


Why is the black rat w/the hammer trampling on only American symbols, like the Statue of Liberty, a basketball hoop, golden arches for McDonalds, Scrooge McDuck, etc., and then saying good riddance to the enemies of Europe? %uFFFDHas Vlaams Belang as the spokesgroup for Europe declared war against America?

}:/ %uFFFD %uFFFD [If so, let them try. %uFFFDWe've plenty of asskicking to hand around ... ]


Please note: that's not a Vlaams Belang poster. But the rat character does appear in the Vlaams Belang youth magazine.

On the other hand VB supporters will plaster banners saying "only Dutch is spoken in Flanders" over stores with english wording in their signs as quickly as they will over French signs. All foreign culture== BAD!

118 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:58:07am

re: #88 Metalstorm


I am interracial and my children are nearly 3/4 Asian, and yet I support the European's right to preserve their culture and race. Why should they not be given the right of cultural and Caucasian racial self-preservation when every other culture and race have that right enshrined by multiculturalism?

Because multiculturalism is a socialist construct designed to degrade the foundations of Western civilization, but we know that already.

What makes you think they won't come for you, when they're done beating the browner immigrants to death with tire irons in the streets? You're either insane, or a liar, if you're claiming to be non-white, and genuinely supporting these people.

Thank G*d I live in the U.S.

119 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:58:57am

Oyvind
( the author of the excellent piece Charles links to in the post)
has recently written a book on today's Eurofascism that I highly recommend

120 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:00:48am

re: #114 Pawn of the Oppressor

Funny little story about all this is when we first moved in and met him and his then wife. My family was waiting on our driveway to be picked up to go to Israel. Nikki being an overall actually really nice guy...introduced himself, and asked us where we were going (we had suitcases)...so of course...we very proudly, and excitedly told him...he said "oh" and was on his way.

Little did we know at that time that the guy we just told we were going to Israel to liked the Nazis.

121 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:02:14am
122 ContraJihadi  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:02:44am

I hope it's not too early to go OT, but, Charles, did you ever come to a decision about the after-post editing?

123 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:02:55am

re: #116 realwest

There was a smear attempt by so-called conservatives over this issue to defame Charles as being on the wrong side of this issue. There has to be an absolute clarification on the dangers of what some of 'over zealous' Anti-Jihad are willing to do to get traction on their efforts. This is a slippery slope.

124 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:04:21am

re: #109 Charles

Hitler youth indoctrination?

125 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:06:56am

This is just astonishing. I just cannot BELIEVE the hole GoV is digging for themselves.

126 JHW  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:07:00am

My guess is that some people are so petrified and terrified at the jihadi threat they are willing to desperately grasp any allies, no matter how odious, to combat them. It`s a cowardly trait,IMO. The jihadis may be able to do tremendous damage in the short term, but their over-weening arrogance and sense of religious superiority in the end will eventually force mainstream political parties to be more pro-active in dealing with them, their citizens will demand it. A few more teddy bears, fake koran burnings, and cartoons ought to do it. Mock them mercilessly, they cannot stand that. This black and white, either /or argument that we cant survive without taking on all allies, regardless of their character, is so cowardly as to be beneath contempt.

127 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:08:30am

re: #122 ContraJihadi

Are you asking about people being able to edit their posts after the fact?

128 storagemanager  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:11:23am

An Atlas is ticked pink that Baron likes her...sick.

129 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:11:38am

re: #126 JHW

Bingo! Exactly!

130 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:11:43am

re: #122 ContraJihadi

I believe it was nixed.

131 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:12:32am

re: #121 Iron Fist

If true, that puts this whole spat in a much more sinister light.

sho'do.


/no one expected the Abby Normal Jewtian Inquistion!

132 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:12:43am
133 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:13:28am

re: #126 JHW

it is why their slogan is NO ALTERNATIVE

they know it
they are whoring it

that they use 9/11 to advance their own agenda INFURIATES ME

134 storagemanager  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:13:35am

I got no icon...don't shun me.

135 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:14:42am

re: #125 wahabicorridor

Believe it.

136 ContraJihadi  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:15:00am

re: #127 Egfrow

re: #122 ContraJihadi

Are you asking about people being able to edit their posts after the fact?

Yes. I haven't read that Charles has come to a decision.

137 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:15:28am

re: #132 WrathofG-d

Rage Against the Machine is an anti-capitalist anarchist group. Anger is only effective when controlled by a rational choice to be angry. The decision to use anger after rationality has had a go at it. Reason, (aka Reality) and emotions (aka Passion) can be good mates and should be.

138 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:15:39am

re: #136 ContraJihadi

He did- search his comments.

139 ContraJihadi  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:16:20am

re: #138 Sharmuta

Many thanks.

140 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:16:20am

LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.

141 marwan's daughter  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:16:35am

re: #118 Pawn of the Oppressor

re: #88 Metalstorm


I am interracial and my children are nearly 3/4 Asian, and yet I support the European's right to preserve their culture and race. Why should they not be given the right of cultural and Caucasian racial self-preservation when every other culture and race have that right enshrined by multiculturalism?
Because multiculturalism is a socialist construct designed to degrade the foundations of Western civilization, but we know that already.

What makes you think they won't come for you, when they're done beating the browner immigrants to death with tire irons in the streets? You're either insane, or a liar, if you're claiming to be non-white, and genuinely supporting these people.

Thank G*d I live in the U.S.

Yes, indeed. But if we are not vigilant, the same thing will happen here. Don't ever write off the possibility of David Duke and Don Black doing what Nick Griffin and Filip DeWinter have done. Both Griffin and DeWinter have whitewashed their unsavory pasts. Griffin of the BNP was, and still is, a Holocaust denier (his catchword was "Holohoax"). The day David Duke and Don Black do the same thing is the day I will weep bitterly. Because that will signal the death of America as we know it.

142 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:17:42am

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin

I don't read all that sour grapes crap, even the stuff about me, I rely on you guys for the high (low) lights

143 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:18:09am

re: #137 Egfrow

Yes. RATM as a political voice...are a problem. An infant with a gun!

BUT...the overall message to the intellegent and responsible is a good one, in my opinion, even if their facts are wrong. PLUS and more importantly iz guud music!

Killing in the name of...Islam?

144 Kaboomboom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:18:26am

#116 realwest

You simply can't lie down with fascists of any stripe and not get up infested with fleas.

Yes, but not just fleas, fleas with armbands.

145 marwan's daughter  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:18:29am

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin

LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.

I didn't even know 1389 was a troll. He/she was the one who kept bringing up that fascist Croatian rocker, right?

146 Spiny Norman  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:18:39am

re: #119 BabbaZee

Oyvind
( the author of the excellent piece Charles links to in the post)
has recently written a book on today's Eurofascism that I highly recommend

Eh, wha...?

The way you set up that hyperlink makes it appear as if there is some form of Eurofascism you approve of.

Scared me for a second.

147 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:19:12am

Ima Troll. I'm just well mannered

148 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:19:55am

re: #142 BabbaZee
I can't stomach much of it myself.

They need to register the domain: "sourgrapes.com".

149 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:20:11am

re: #2 zombie

It will if the participants want it to. Agreeing to disagree is always an option.

150 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:21:58am

re: #143 WrathofG-d

Best song they ever wrote. Thanks.

To all the eurofascists and their sympathizers advocating alliance- Wrath's #143 is my song to you.

151 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:21:59am

re: #145 marwan's daughter

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin


LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.

I didn't even know 1389 was a troll. He/she was the one who kept bringing up that fascist Croatian rocker, right?

Yes. I believe he/she was banned.

152 JHW  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:22:38am

I`ll be watching to see if any new posters show up with runes in their avatar.

153 Kaboomboom  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:22:43am

#146 Spiny Norman

Love your avatar!

Cordially,
Distant Cousin of Dinsdale

154 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:22:45am

re: #141 marwan's daughter

There are a ton of connections between all these groups
The Vlaams were here in February they met with Buchanan, Tancredo and others
They have come here the last threee years

Also this is why the co opted the "CounterJihad " conference and also the 9/11 demonstration

Duke goes to Europe all the time

His web master is Belgian and Duke spoke in Flanders last year

This is a NETWORK, and they are serious about using the jihad to take control

the Vlaamsers are very important players in the world wide "nationalist" movement and Dewinter thinks big for himself, VanHecke and Annemans too

I have a ton on the cross continental connections and so does Oy, he is working on a piece now regarding that that I plan to follow up on after he is done over this weekend.

155 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:23:04am

re: #146 Spiny Norman

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!

YA VOL!

156 Lawrence Schmerel  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:23:05am

It is sinister and it is evil.

157 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:23:17am

Just to refresh everyone here with:

Sharmuta's Reasons for Aligning With Nazis.

Aligning with fascists is acceptable because:

A) The situation is dire
B) We're not there so we can't understand
C) There is no such thing as political purity
D) The crypto-fascists are not as bad as you think they are
E) Charles Johnson is a hedonistic nihilist utopian neo-con leftist
F) A combination of any or all of the above

158 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:23:32am

re: #136 ContraJihadi

I don't know where Charles stand on that. My opinion is that learning how to read and edit your posts and use the preview button is becoming a forgotten skill. I'm learning hard lessons about doing that myself. My writing skills have improved over the last few years because I have made so many bad grammar posts. My thoughts have become more clarified as a result of being shamed by my own screw ups.

If something like this were to be implemented then it should be delayed postings. When you make a post. There will be a 3 minute delay before it actually shows up in the thread but to you it does show up in context. The only difference is that the Edit button will disappear after 3 minutes. I think Digg does something like that.

I think it's just better for all of us just to learn how to communicate the first time better.

159 The Albatross  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:23:50am

It looks as though Gates of Vienna has chosen to draw a line in the sand. Clearly they see counter Jihad tied in with a victory for an independent Flanders.

In all that has been written since the summit, I am not convinced that hitching your pony to the independence for Flanders wagon is the best course, but they do and have done much to defend their position.

Is the internal struggle of a sovereign nation the business of counter Jihad? Or is it more that it is a movement to polarize people and wake up a slumbering Europe and the silent majority?

I think that integrity, more than unity will sway opinion as Europe continues to swell and begins to reel with the massive immigration of "Asians" that will come into their communities or are already there and are sowing the seeds of discontent.

I am a bit disgruntled to be called leftist by those with whom I am aligned by my interest in the advancement of the counter Jihad movement... but the "marriage of convenience" theories being put out by those who have chosen to align themselves with the VB is in my view damaging to the movement as a whole.

I, too, would like to see this rift mended, but feel that Charles has chosen the position with the most integrity. I have been loathe to understand why his opinion on this matter has been derided - it is only an opinion after all... doubtless one of many.

I think at this point, if the VB were interested in aligning themselves truly with the counter Jihad movement, they would have stepped up and put out the fires themselves in a very public way - rather than leaving the clean up to GOV. They did not, or have not that I know of... so their priority is an independent Flanders.

The summit did do one thing for the VB and the SD... it put the awareness of this civil struggle into public view, but I do not see the cause of counter Jihad advanced. It has suffered.

Just my take...be back later.

160 Globular Cluster  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:24:28am

Eurofascism.org:

"Fascism is alive and well: today it feasts on a new myth -- the myth of "Eurabia"".

Eurabia is not a myth.

161 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:24:29am

re: #157 Honorary Yooper

Todays' troll went with "A".

162 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:25:05am

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin

LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.

Now that's a laugh. The Nodrog is a huge critic.

163 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:25:14am

re: #150 Sharmuta

What do they say after..."Those who die are justified"...for___ and ___choosen ___ ?

164 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:25:22am

re: #117 Thanos

Could you consider you might be overreacting? The Flemmish language is full of French words.

OT: Are there any known LGF- watchers trolling to anyones knowledge? Extreme LeftWingers (very islam-appeasing) are trolling on islam-critical fora in Europe, I wonder if that phenomena has also reached the States? Nasty people, I'll tell you. Some of the posters seem excessively beyond reason. I wonder why?

165 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:26:02am

re: #121 Iron Fist

re: #121 Iron Fist

re: #105 Charles,

I think the commenters are coming closer to admiting the truth. They want the neo-Nazis to crack heads for them in street riots that they see coming (in all fairness, are already happening in France). They think they can use the neo-Nazis and not be tainted by them.

Or they don't see it as a taint. Since this began, I've been struck by how easily the GoV/BJ types threw over people that were ostensibly their "friends" in favor of people of questionable origins and motivations. Maybe the neo-Nazis are saying what GoV/BJ wants to hear. If true, that puts this whole spat in a much more sinister light.

I think the latter is closer to the truth. What other reason could the GoV people have for insisting with such force that VB are misunderstood? Are they getting paid to stand as a respectable front for VB? Taken with their anti-immigration opinions, their minute record-keeping of what every ancestor of them said or did when and where, it is to me more than likely that they are the kind of people who chiefly identify themselves by what group they belong to, what their ancestors did, and much less by their own achievements. The jump to any kind of judgement by the group (such as outright racism) isn't too far from there. My guess is if they don't outright support white nationalism, they are "tolerant" and "understanding" of it.

166 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:26:37am

re: #143 WrathofG-d

On that note: I will post a an Anti-Jihadi Classic.

And here is a new edition to their collection:

167 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:27:16am

re: #148 Pvt Bin Jammin

lol

168 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:27:27am

re: #161 Sharmuta

re: #157 Honorary Yooper

Todays' troll went with "A".

I saw. That's what prompted the refresh. ;-)

This really needs to be in the LGF Dictionary.

169 Spiny Norman  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:27:31am

re: #145 marwan's daughter

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin
LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.
I didn't even know 1389 was a troll. He/she was the one who kept bringing up that fascist Croatian rocker, right?

When he irritated me, which was often, I sometimes wanted to post a link to 1396.

Short version: the Siege of Nicopolis, where the Serbs fought on the side of the Turks and proved to be decisive in the Ottoman victory. 10,000 Christian soldiers were captured and put to death by various gruesome means for the amusement of Sultan Bayezid.

170 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:27:52am

re: #156 Lawrence Schmerel

I will second that

171 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:28:21am

re: #106 Yank in the EU

You can change "many" to: "virtually every" or: "the vast majority of", as you might know since you live in the EUSSR yourself.

172 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:28:24am

re: #163 WrathofG-d

Here's the lyrics for you.

173 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:28:34am

re: #166 Egfrow

re: #143 WrathofG-d

On that note: I will post a an Anti-Jihadi Classic.

And here is a new edition to their collection:

Very very well done..."America's Rage" or "Rage Against the Islamist Machine"

174 SusanL  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:29:57am

re: #18 Spiny Norman

re: #9 Ben Hur


The story starts with Raymond Macherot, an excellent Belgian cartoonist. He drew black rats very much resembling the fascist rat Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs found.

I had to read that twice...

They've gone fully into Bizarro World now. It's official.

It is amazing what poor grammar can cause. Is this person calling our beloved Lizard Master a fascist rat, or is he comparing one drawing to another? Inquiring minds would like to know.

I also take great insult at being described as a "leftist". Dog gone it, I belong to the vast right wing conspiracy. They need to get their directions straight. IMHO, they are so far beyond the pale that you can't assign a direction.

Susan

175 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:30:26am

re: #164 bottehond

Yes- one is called lgfwatch. They think you're a nazi.

176 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:30:28am

re: #172 Sharmuta

Thank you I have ALWAYS wondered what they were saying.

Now I wish I never found out.

Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites

OY!

177 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:30:49am

re: #171 bottehond


Well, hello! I do believe you owe me an email, sir...

;D

178 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:31:49am

re: #160 Globular Cluster

I know that
He really does too

He just thinks the far right in Europe are INFLATING the threat to take power

he might be right
I hope he is

Certainly he is way more left than I will ever be but he is not a communist

We are going to argue this publicly at his blog

We already did a lot on it privately

This guy is not a right wing guy.
Liekly many here myself included will disagree with many of his views regarding Islam

But he is a good person and an intellectually honest person, he does not suffer from agenda induced cognitive dissonance and neither do I

So I think the conversation is great to have with someone like him

179 WrathofG-d  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:32:53am

re: #172 Sharmuta

Wasn't impressed when I figued out the lyrics to Roll Right either.

ROLL RIGHT
---

Lick off the shot my stories shock ya like Ellison
Main line adrenaline Gaza to Tienanmen
From the basement I'm dwellin' in
I cock back tha sling to stone a settler
And breaks him off clean, call me the upsetter
Here comes the hands on the leashes
The cross, the capital, the pale families, the fear and the mouthpieces
The single sista lynch
The cell doors crash
And the master's drums echo, echo, echo, echo, echo, echo
Roll right! Roll call!
But now we're alright, we're all calm!
Roll right! Roll call!
And now we're alright, we're all calm!

This hits like fists bomb with the left and don't miss
With the sickest stilo I spark fear like pigs in the park
Head crack, I hijack the papers
The vapors caught fire up in your mind
Come back rewind one time
Here comes the hands on the leashes
The cross, the capital, the pale families, the fear and the mouthpieces
The single sista lynch
The cell doors crash
And the master's drums echo, echo, echo, echo, echo, echo
Roll right! Roll call!
But now we're alright, we're all calm!
Roll right! Roll call!

We gotta take 'em to tha seventh level
We gotta take 'em to tha seventh level
For their lives and my lives were never settled
Come on, don't freeze when zero hour comes
Come on, come on, don't freeze when zero hour comes
Come on

Send 'em to tha seventh level!
Send 'em to tha seventh level!
Send 'em to tha seventh level!
Send 'em to tha seventh level!
For their lives and my lives were never settled

180 realwest  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:33:03am

re: #123 Egfrow Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but real life intervened.
You do NOT have to tell me about that.
I was on Pamela's (Atlas Shrugs) and GoV's case from the jump - see Chareles thread of about a month ago titled "When Friends Attack".
Other than that, that Charles and a few other bloggers, quite appropriately have responded to those attack and in the course of doing so, Charles and others - notably newly minted Operative Babba Zee, shined a BRIGHT Light on what was really going on over in Europe and at the Counter-Jihad Conference.
And although I'm sure it was not his intention to do so, Fjordman also helped shine a lot on who is and isn't a friend of or to Charles.
So what's the point of your post?

181 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:33:18am

re: #162 Honorary Yooper
I believe that Nodrog spoke up in Charles' behalf a few weeks back at GoV...go figure.

182 ContraJihadi  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:33:31am

re: #158 Egfrow

re: #136 ContraJihadi

I don't know where Charles stand on that. My opinion is that learning how to read and edit your posts and use the preview button is becoming a forgotten skill. I'm learning hard lessons about doing that myself. My writing skills have improved over the last few years because I have made so many bad grammar posts. My thoughts have become more clarified as a result of being shamed by my own screw ups.

If something like this were to be implemented then it should be delayed postings. When you make a post. There will be a 3 minute delay before it actually shows up in the thread but to you it does show up in context. The only difference is that the Edit button will disappear after 3 minutes. I think Digg does something like that.

I think it's just better for all of us just to learn how to communicate the first time better.

Charles seems to agree with you, or at least he decided that the technical issues were too formidable. I do use preview and spell check, but sometimes I just miss certain little mistakes even after one or two passes at proof reading, such things as writing "the" when I mean "they" that don't always show up right away before my aging eyes.

Still, I'll just have to take your advice and try harder.

183 Charles  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:33:41am

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin

LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.

Gotta love it. And I see that "1389" has now come out into the open as a Serbian nationalist, which is just what I've been saying.

184 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:35:16am

re: #165 guftafs

Exactly how nice normal Germans were tolerant and understanding of Nazism in the 30's

Precisely how evil takes power
Good men do nothing

NEVER TOLERATE EVIL
no matter from what quarter it appears.
Even if it appears out of your own family.

NEVER tolerate it

185 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:35:39am

re: #175 Sharmuta

If they are connected to BlokWatch and thus to AFA (extreme leftists gangs beating up people neonazi-style) I take that as no insult. They call everyone a nazi and a fascist that doens't agree with them. Has anybody gotten into LGF'-watches background? Check the similar name: blokWATCH and lgfWATCH. They all of a sudden disappeared last year.

* is very, very curious *

186 Spiny Norman  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:36:08am

re: #174 SusanL

re: #18 Spiny Norman
re: #9 Ben Hur
The story starts with Raymond Macherot, an excellent Belgian cartoonist. He drew black rats very much resembling the fascist rat Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs found.
I had to read that twice...
They've gone fully into Bizarro World now. It's official.
It is amazing what poor grammar can cause. Is this person calling our beloved Lizard Master a fascist rat, or is he comparing one drawing to another? Inquiring minds would like to know.

I also take great insult at being described as a "leftist". Dog gone it, I belong to the vast right wing conspiracy. They need to get their directions straight. IMHO, they are so far beyond the pale that you can't assign a direction.

Susan

It is a poorly-constructed sentence.

Upon further review, it appears that they aren't calling Charles a "fascist" (at least not this time), rather, claiming to defend a Belgian cartoonist whose rat character resembles an obscure fascist icon. Oh, but the resemblence is only coincidental...

187 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:36:21am

re: #183 Charles

And I see that "1389" has now come out into the open as a Serbian nationalist, which is just what I've been saying.


[deep sigh]

188 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:36:34am

re: #180 realwest

It was more intended to be a supplement to what you said not against you. I agree with you 100%. I should have made that clear. Sorry.

189 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:37:30am

re: #177 wahabicorridor

@ yer service. Have to attend to my sons now.

190 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:38:48am

re: #183 Charles

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin


LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.

Gotta love it. And I see that "1389" has now come out into the open as a Serbian nationalist, which is just what I've been saying.

I found the link, might as well add it here, so all can see "1389" for what "1389" is.

I know we're Little Green Fuckballs, and LFG, and a bunch of assorted other names, but "Leftist Green Footballs"? That's a new one here.

191 Spiny Norman  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:38:50am

re: #183 Charles

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin
LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.
Gotta love it. And I see that "1389" has now come out into the open as a Serbian nationalist, which is just what I've been saying.

And I figured as much as well. I should have made my #169 post before he got the boot.

192 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:40:04am

re: #185 bottehond


(extreme leftists gangs beating up people neonazi-style)

It seems to me that the Gramscian Whores extreme left (INTERNATIONAL SOCIALISTS)
and the Neo Nazi Fascists on the extreme right
(NATIONAL SOCIALISTS)
have a very long standing tradition in Europe of kicking the shit out of each other in the streets... which gets started even in grade school.

Both sides do it and they fucking love it as far as I can tell.

IMO they are both basically the same thuggish collectivism with slightly different colored agenda hats.

And the many places where these two extremes meld are glued together by hatred of the Jews.

193 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:40:30am

re: #190 Honorary Yooper

I got called a leftist recently, a communist too


LOL!

194 Pastorius  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:40:39am

#154, Babba Zee

Are you implying that you think Tancredo belongs in the same category at the VB and Pat Buchanan?

195 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:40:52am

re: #183 Charles
I never had a good feeling about that one either.

196 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:41:11am

re: #184 BabbaZee

re: #165 guftafs

Exactly how nice normal Germans were tolerant and understanding of Nazism in the 30's

re: #184 BabbaZee

Problem was, they weren't nice then, just as I think the people at GoV aren't very nice now. I'm sure most Germans knew how to bathe and pull out the chair for any women friends, but that don't matter no much, does it, taken all in all?

197 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:42:12am

re: #181 Pvt Bin Jammin

re: #162 Honorary Yooper
I believe that Nodrog spoke up in Charles' behalf a few weeks back at GoV...go figure.

Yeah, I saw that. Can you define "irony"?

Funny though, the Nodrog keeps sticking up for Charles at GoV. Who'da thunk it? He did get banned from AtS. I guess Bodissey can't ban anyone.

198 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:42:38am

re: #185 bottehond

LMAO. You have no idea what you're talking about. lgfwatch is a bunch of Charles' stalkers. They watch this site daily. They think you're a nazi not because of some leftist euro blog, but because they read this site.

199 Vanderleun  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:42:46am

Just checking the new icon.

200 Vanderleun  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:44:09am

Not very good.

BTW way upthread somebody pumps in a quote:

The story starts with Raymond Macherot, an excellent Belgian cartoonist. He drew black rats very much resembling the fascist rat Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs found.

Is that from the original linked GOV post? Can't find it there right now.

201 Spiny Norman  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:45:03am

re: #192 BabbaZee

re: #185 bottehond
(extreme leftists gangs beating up people neonazi-style)
It seems to me that the Gramscian Whores extreme left (INTERNATIONAL SOCIALISTS) and the Neo Nazi Fascists on the extreme right (NATIONAL SOCIALISTS) have a very long standing tradition in Europe of kicking the shit out of each other in the streets... which gets started even in grade school.

Both sides do it and they fucking love it as far as I can tell.

IMO they are both basically the same thuggish collectivism with slightly different colored agenda hats.

And the many places where these two extremes meld are glued together by hatred of the Jews.

Red vs Black (vs Green).

Too bad those of us in Blue can't put them all on a deserted island and let them have at each other.

202 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:46:23am

re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin

I had heard that before years ago from some drunken demon possessed loonies that used to post here...
she must be in contact with those LGFDS MFers now to come up with that one...

duller than dirt.

203 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:47:03am

re: #201 Spiny Norman

Amen to THAT!

204 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:47:13am

re: #190 Honorary Yooper

re: #183 Charles


re: #140 Pvt Bin Jammin

LOL Did anyone else follow 1389's link at GoV? 1389 seems to think Nodrog was one of Charles' sockpuppets.

Gotta love it. And I see that "1389" has now come out into the open as a Serbian nationalist, which is just what I've been saying.

I found the link, might as well add it here, so all can see "1389" for what "1389" is.

I know we're Little Green Fuckballs, and LFG, and a bunch of assorted other names, but "Leftist Green Footballs"? That's a new one here.


We could probably do a whole thread on that article. What's with the hangman's noose?

205 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:48:06am

re: #196 guftafs

Sure doesn't!

206 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:48:32am

#202 Babba Zee

Do they live across the way?

207 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:48:48am

re: #192 BabbaZee

I couln't agree more. I consider nazi exactly for what the are: collectivists from socialist origin. I think Hitler said himself that national socialism and communism are basically the same. They tend to wear the same kind of clothes within their peergroup too, did you notice?

208 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:48:54am

I know I'm way late, but I just finished reading the various linked articles, and I have to ask:

What are the Baron and Dymphna thinking?

I've never been a GoV fan, for whatever reason, but I never had the impression that they were the sort of people to ignore evidence. What has happened? Evidence - both pro and con - has been presented and linked, and followed fully. Why are they obfuscating? This has stopped making sense.

209 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:49:03am

re: #194 Pastorius

No I am not implying anything I said they met with him when they were here is all.

They are trying to tie legitimate beards on.

210 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:49:47am

re: #208 Dianna


Why are they obfuscating? This has stopped making sense.


You are a smart girl.
What could be the only possible reason?

211 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:50:11am

re: #198 Sharmuta

Okay: I'll get into the matter myself then, since you can't give me more accurate information.

212 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:50:28am

re: #207 bottehond

YES

The places where they meld are FASCINATING too
I am going to write a post on that eventually

213 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:50:53am

1389 is posting at stalker blog #2, where it assuredly picked up the "nodrog is Charles' sockpuppet" meme, and can be considered a liar for claiming to be female when on "her" own blog referred to "herself" in childhood as a little boy.

214 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:51:20am

re: #204 Pvt Bin Jammin

re: #190 Honorary Yooper

215 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:51:29am

re: #206 Pvt Bin Jammin

LOL
No those are different drunken demon possessed loonies
haha

216 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:52:54am

Second try.

re: #204 Pvt Bin Jammin


re: #190 Honorary Yooper
I found the link, might as well add it here, so all can see "1389" for what "1389" is.
I know we're Little Green Fuckballs, and LFG, and a bunch of assorted other names, but "Leftist Green Footballs"? That's a new one here.

We could probably do a whole thread on that article. What's with the hangman's noose?

Good question. Bodissey even corrected "1389" on how many loops there are in a traditional hangman's noose.

217 Pastorius  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:53:02am

#209, Babba Zee,

Ok, gotcha. Thanks.

218 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:54:08am

re: #210 BabbaZee

re: #208 Dianna



Why are they obfuscating? This has stopped making sense.

You are a smart girl.
What could be the only possible reason?

1. Pride.
2. They are ind bed with the VB and the fascists.

219 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:54:17am

re: #216 Honorary Yooper

Second try.

re: #204 Pvt Bin Jammin



re: #190 Honorary Yooper
I found the link, might as well add it here, so all can see "1389" for what "1389" is.
I know we're Little Green Fuckballs, and LFG, and a bunch of assorted other names, but "Leftist Green Footballs"? That's a new one here.

We could probably do a whole thread on that article. What's with the hangman's noose?

Good question. Bodissey even corrected "1389" on how many loops there are in a traditional hangman's noose.


LOL I forgot to read the comments. Any other good ones?

220 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:54:27am

re: #211 bottehond

The information I gave you IS accurate:

1) lgfwatch is an LGF stalker blog not affiliated with euro politics
2) Posters at lgfwatch have posted they think you're a nazi.

I refuse to link that blog here (as do most other lizards), so feel free to look it up yourself.

221 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:54:31am
222 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:55:18am

re: #213 Sharmuta

1389 is posting at stalker blog #2, where it assuredly picked up the "nodrog is Charles' sockpuppet" meme, and can be considered a liar for claiming to be female when on "her" own blog referred to "herself" in childhood as a little boy.

Maybe he/she was a little boy and lost something along the way. :->

223 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:55:54am

re: #221 Iron Fist

Touché. LOL

224 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:56:00am

re: #191 Spiny Norman

I'm getting too soft in my old age
I didnt notice anything about 1389
and I liked her just fine
till all this hooplewanky brought the "nativist" out in so many people


oy

Now I know better though
I wasn't LOOKING for this shit,
I was looking for Jihad
consequently I did not see it...

Well...I see it now.

Watch out all ye "own peoples firstly" MFers.

lol

225 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:56:04am

My guess is that most North Americans will never know what it's like to face the destruction of thousands of years of your history. Until then most Americans can't deal with the reality of what's going on in Europe.

Europeans are under the threat of imminent destruction from islamists, and their lefty-liberal governments are actively working against them.

When your in a fight against all the bikers in a bar, you'll accept help from whoever offers it, and not check to see what their political or racial affiliation is first.

The European people are in for the fight for their very survival. Let's deal with all the political ideology crap after the fights over, not during, for that only serves our opponents not us.

Just my opinion.

226 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:56:18am
227 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:56:23am

re: #210 BabbaZee

Babba, I'm inclined to believe, first of all, that it's an emotional issue. I've watched people get so tied up in being correct that they cut off friends they've had for years. So that's my first suspicion.

It could be something more sinister, but I'm a fan of Occam's razor.

228 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:56:56am

re: #219 Pvt Bin Jammin

Nah. That was the only comment, IIRC.

229 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:57:39am

re: #221 Iron Fist

re: #213 Sharmuta,

Maybe it's not lying. Maybe it's a transvestite :-)

That's almost as bad as my #222. :-D

230 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:57:58am

re: #225 Johnny Canuck

So- you're answer is "A"?

231 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:58:06am

re: #164 bottehond

re: #117 Thanos

Could you consider you might be overreacting? The Flemmish language is full of French words.

Not really, I have pictures of VB Jongeren plastering stickers over English signs on my hard-drive. I also have links to Flemish nationalist groups who have anti-english campaigns, and I have links to Belgian forum discussions by nationalists decrying English usage in Flanders.

232 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:58:20am
233 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:58:22am

re: #225 Johnny Canuck

I understand it just fine
which is why this is all the more important
why I have to fight it as hard as I can
as hard as I fight jihad

very bad MFers intend to use that to take power

you NEVER trade one set of totalitarian MFers for another

even if it means you die fighting them both

/and you should never underestimate the colossal dangerous of a biker bar fight either

;~}

234 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:59:12am

re: #230 Sharmuta

re: #225 Johnny Canuck

So- you're answer is "A"?

Zombie, can you get this into the LGF Dictionary ASAP?

235 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:59:25am

re: #227 Dianna

I dig.

I'm a witness to Occams Toupee.

LOL

236 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:59:32am

re: #213 Sharmuta

I don't know. '1389' sent me an email recently (basically just to talk shit about LGF) and had a female name.

I guess '1389' didn't notice that I was suspicious of 'her' comments nearly a month before 'she' was banned.

237 JHW  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:59:39am

Take a look at the 3rd poster down on Charles` link to the article, the red one with the 3 cute little Viking types. The middle guy`s belt buckle has an uncanny resemblance to the insignia of
The 6th SS Volunteer Sturm Brigade Langemarck
a Flemish SS unit. A stretch or a coincidence?

238 medaura18586  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:00:02pm

This issue is easy: Dymphna was seething with condescendence in the podcast with Dr.Sanity about how ignorant everyone else is about Belgian politics. I myself am pretty ignorant, but let me tell you about some pretty safe inferences I can draw from the comfort of my ignorance:

If these people have outgrown their Nazi roots, then why would they stick under the old banners? Some are saying that it was a dark part of their history, and their turnaround is more than mere rhetoric, they actually don't stand for those nasty Nazi ideas today... Well then, why don't they dissolve this Nazi-linked party and start fresh? That's all I have to know, don't need to be bothered with the nuances. And that's why I will never believe that these people have outgrown their roots, because if they had, they would reneg them and start a new untainted party.

Period

239 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:00:12pm

re: #226 taxfreekiller

dig daddy o
six two and even

240 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:00:35pm
241 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:01:47pm

re: #217 Pastorius

Most welcome

242 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:01:55pm

re: #233 BabbaZee

very bad MFers intend to use that to take power

you NEVER trade one set of totalitarian MFers for another

even if it means you die fighting them both

Don't forget the environmentalist/gaia worshipping/Al Gore adulating set. They're after power, too. And we really won't like it if they get it.

Too many totalitarians in potentia to keep up with!

243 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:02:24pm

re: #240 taxfreekiller

coocoocachoo

244 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:03:04pm

re: #237 JHW

Take a look at the 3rd poster down on Charles` link to the article, the red one with the 3 cute little Viking types. The middle guy`s belt buckle has an uncanny resemblance to the insignia of
The 6th SS Volunteer Sturm Brigade Langemarck
a Flemish SS unit. A stretch or a coincidence?

Maybe not a stretch. It may also be a Flanders Lion as well, but your suspicions are justified.

245 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:03:43pm

re: #230 Sharmuta

While ideologically I agree with you, BUT, looking at it from a Europeans point of view, when your down to the final short strokes before your buried under Sharia, I'd have to go with A, sorry man but my survival comes first.

246 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:03:59pm
247 Abdullah al-Libi  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:04:03pm

I hate Nazis as much as the next guy. I clicked on the Eurofascism.info link, and saw this: "Fascism is alive and well. Today it feasts on a new myth: the myth of Eurabia."

So these jerks are trying to lump Bat YeOr and Daniel Pipes into the same boat as Neo-Nazis? They're a bunch of ostriches sticking their heads in the sand. No thanks - I don't care what they have to say.

248 Spiny Norman  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:05:09pm

The confusing "rat" sentence seems to have been corrected:

He drew black rats very much resembling the fascist rat found by Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs.

That's much better.

249 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:05:22pm

re: #236 konservo

I'm a girl, and have never once referred to myself in my childhood as a "little boy". It's quite possible that 1389 has "issues". A lot of them. It's also possible that 1389 will go back and correct this Freudian slip. I mean- it was being so honest in the past about it's real motivations...why stop now?

/dig your blog, btw.

250 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:07:21pm

re: #205 BabbaZee

re: #205 BabbaZee

re: #196 guftafs

Sure doesn't!

... and one quick way to make sure where Fjordman stands is to ask him if he thinks 'culture' follows 'nativity', which he sure seems to think they do. If he does, he is basically a racist, believing different races have different innate qualities, such as white being 'industrious', blacks 'lazy' and prone to criminality. Why else would he insist that the 'natives' have to remain a majority in a nation for their culture to be kept alive?

(bbl)

251 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:07:56pm

re: #225 Johnny Canuck

My guess is that most North Americans will never know what it's like to face the destruction of thousands of years of your history. Until then most Americans can't deal with the reality of what's going on in Europe.

Europeans are under the threat of imminent destruction from islamists, and their lefty-liberal governments are actively working against them.

When your in a fight against all the bikers in a bar, you'll accept help from whoever offers it, and not check to see what their political or racial affiliation is first.

The European people are in for the fight for their very survival. Let's deal with all the political ideology crap after the fights over, not during, for that only serves our opponents not us.

Just my opinion.


THe same "Sky is falling ; extreme circusmstance calls for extreme measures" Package Deal is the same strawman bullshit type argument the acolytes of the Goracle use to further their agenda. Why do you need to paint the situation as extreme as a crisis? Because people won't fucking accept under any other condition. Sorry it's not extreme.
Pattani Province, that's extreme, Yala, that's extreme, the Sudan, that's extreme, Mogadishu, that's a crisis, Iraq, that's a big problem, Pakistan the same, Afghanistan the same. Europe? That's not. Instead the Euro-Fascist's are REMFs who think they are on the front.

252 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:09:38pm

re: #246 Iron Fist

To use your analogy, we'll look in the bar, see who's in a tussle, and get back on our bike and ride down the road.

F*ck yeah, we will. Frankly- we have our own bar to defend.

253 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:09:58pm

The European White Racists (who use the Odin's Cross as a White Racist symbol to replace the Swastika), would bring another European Holocaust upon a new set of victims, starting with all those who are black (their religion is immaterial to the racists -- and this would include blacks who are Christians as well as blacks who are not). They would target also all those who are not as white as they are, including a lot of bronze-skinned people from the Mediterranean region. Targeted also, of course, would be those who are not of their religion.

They write of a Nieuwe Ordenung, a New Order. The New Order would be similar to the old Nazi order. The main difference is that the the people chewed up and killed by the New Order massacre machine would start off with blacks and other non-whites, of all religions, and after the racist slaughter they would get to the religious slaughter.

254 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:10:06pm

re: #242 Dianna
yep
The triple pronged threat IMO

GOD loves the trinities
everything is based in the triune
for the fulcrum effect

Far Left
Far Right
Jihad
and they are , at the core,
all predicated ideologically on the exact same collectivist darkness
with a matrix made from hatred of the GOD of Abraham ...
consequently then this extends to the Jews He chose to carry his Word into the world and bear his Redeemer
this hate today extends to the
Redeemer's people the Christians too...
Those who keep His covenant must be stopped.

It IS a freaking Holy War.

S'why I keep saying
We may not be interested in Holy war but holy war is sho' nuff interested in our asses

Covenant of Life
Covenant of Death
are the only real divisions on earth

255 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:10:18pm

re: #246 Iron Fist

I haven't seen that they're out busting heads, manning the trenches, or are otherwise engaged in actual warfare. Sorry, but that excuse just doesn't wash. They aren't at war. Yet.

Paris, Amsterdam, Utrecht, Malmo, They are at war. The Governments just refuse to admit it. We just never hear about it in our MSM. I speak and read several European languages and read news outlets and blogs from all over Europe. There is a low level intifada occurring all over Europe and it's never reported in the MSM. People are scared to death as their being victimized first by the muslims, then by their Goverments. They have nowhere left to turn but radicalism to suvive.

256 JHW  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:11:29pm

re: #251 Thanos

Great post and it cannot be repeated too many times.I am heartily sick of the sky is falling mode. How the hell did some people live through the cold war without cracking up?

257 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:12:52pm

re: #255 Johnny Canuck

They have nowhere left to turn but radicalism to suvive.

Bullsh*t! That's what the opportunists want you to believe.

258 pegcity  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:13:49pm

re: #137 Egfrow

re: #132 WrathofG-d

Rage Against the Machine is an anti-capitalist anarchist group. Anger is only effective when controlled by a rational choice to be angry. The decision to use anger after rationality has had a go at it. Reason, (aka Reality) and emotions (aka Passion) can be good mates and should be.

funny thing is the Guitarist Tom morello is featured in Guitar hero 3 as one of the characters, so the whole anti capitalist thing is a crock

259 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:14:10pm

re: #251 Thanos

But for Europeans it does look like the sky is falling. Something that on this side of the pond you just can't phathom.

260 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:14:45pm

re: #247 Abdullah al-Libi

If you dismiss it like that, if you confine yourself to reading only the words of those who agree with every thought you have ,
you will end up agenda driven, ignorant of the methods and thoughts of your opponents, and over time this ignorance will stagnate into intellectually dishonesty

The man knows much about the subject he is addressing

Just because I disagree with him on other things I will not disrespect what he brings to the table on this subject.


#178 BabbaZee 12/07/07 11:31:49 am reply quote report 0

re: #160 Globular Cluster

I know that
He really does too

He just thinks the far right in Europe are INFLATING the threat to take power

he might be right
I hope he is

Certainly he is way more left than I will ever be but he is not a communist

We are going to argue this publicly at his blog

We already did a lot on it privately

This guy is not a right wing guy.
Liekly many here myself included will disagree with many of his views regarding Islam

But he is a good person and an intellectually honest person, he does not suffer from agenda induced cognitive dissonance and neither do I

So I think the conversation is great to have with someone like him

261 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:15:57pm

re: #257 Sharmuta

Not bullshit but actually happening, just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not happening. Europeans have had the rose colored glasses slapped off and see the threat for what it is.

262 Pastorius  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:16:19pm

#250 guftafs,

Well said.

263 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:17:20pm

re: #261 Johnny Canuck

Are you trying to say LGFers don't see the threat of islamofascism for what it is?

264 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:18:47pm

re: #259 Johnny Canuck

re: #251 Thanos

But for Europeans it does look like the sky is falling. Something that on this side of the pond you just can't phathom.

Nothing has happened in America the past six years either. Phathom that.

Nobody flew planes into buildings here, nobody ran down students at a university with an SUV, nobody tried to run down people at the Jewish Center in SF, nobody was arrested for plans to blow up the Sears Tower, attack army bases, blow up the brooklyn bridge, blow up the LA Airport, and nobody was driving around concealed in the trunk of a car sniping at people, nobody was mailing anthrax.

Oh yeah, Europe is in just such a friggin crisis... we better do whatever we can...

Europe needs to get over their hysteria before they fall into a dark evil chasm.

265 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:19:03pm

re: #263 Sharmuta

No, I'm saying for Europeans the threat is much more real. As, it is already occurring, battles in the in their streets. We haven't gotten to that point, yet!

266 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:20:22pm

re: #236 konservo

*ahem*
Did you get my email?

267 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:20:26pm

re: #256 JHW

They didn't.

It's a sad and sorry fact that an awful lot of the social distortions and dislocations we notice presently are a product of the strain placed on sensitive people.

268 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:20:55pm

re: #250 guftafs

There is a whole perverted world out there of these super highbrow
intellectually inflated
we desperately need an editor
type racists
and their stuff trickles down through the network to the toothless skinheads and the excon arayans

Sick

He aspires to be one of the "thinkers" of the "movement" IMO

oy.

269 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:22:01pm

re: #259 Johnny Canuck

phathom

Eh?

270 JHW  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:22:27pm

re: #267 Dianna

Sadly, I think you are right. Life was supposed to sooo much easier.

271 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:22:55pm

re: #261 Johnny Canuck

What part of

9/11/2001


did you miss?

I'm from NY

you are starting piss me off.

272 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:24:08pm

re: #265 Johnny Canuck

Sorry- I think what you're really saying is we must align with fascists. I won't- ever. I'm opposed to fascism in any form- islamo, crypto, neo... I won't subscribe to their theory, no matter how dire you or anyone else tells me the situation is.

No fascists in my foxhole!

273 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:24:11pm
274 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:24:59pm

re: #264 Thanos

Your right, that kind of crap happens all to regularly and what is the Government doing about it, nothing. In Europe there are no go islamic zones for police, gangs of rapists praying on "Infidel" women, a vicious criminal element that prays on the native population, and Governments that actively work against those native populations by trying to appease the un-appeasable. They are much further down the road to the Caliphate then we are.

275 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:25:00pm

re: #268 BabbaZee

re: #250 guftafs

There is a whole perverted world out there of these super highbrow
intellectually inflated
we desperately need an editor
type racists
and their stuff trickles down through the network to the toothless skinheads and the excon arayans

Sick

He aspires to be one of the "thinkers" of the "movement" IMO

oy.

I am now confused; who needs an editor? Or were you quoting and it didn't format?

276 danger close  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:25:35pm

I don't understand how otherwise intelligent people fall for this crap.

Its okay for VB and the others to demand that I suppress my objections to the obvious and the distasteful in the name of unity but if I was to suggest let alone demand that they drop, in demonstrated and measurable ways, the racist and neo-nazi bullshit in the self-same name of unity then I get all the invective reserved for enemies.

Who doesn't see this for what it is?


Toujours Pret

277 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:26:43pm

re: #274 Johnny Canuck

All blown way the hell out of proportion. The same was said about South Central LA a few years ago by Stormfront, they were all readying for the coming, inevitable race war. Sound familiar?

278 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:27:36pm

re: #275 Dianna

All the high brow intellectual racialists need an editor
HORRIBLE trying to read that shit

If brevity is the soul of wit we are talking
wit-out here

lol

279 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:28:47pm

re: #275 Dianna

I am posting too stream of consciousness-ey instead of in a "writing" style , sorry


It's me, I'm tired.

BBL

280 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:28:54pm

re: #274 Johnny Canuck

You claimed to be comfortable in a number of languages; are you a non-native English speaker?

281 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:29:13pm

re: #273 Iron Fist

This is what the eurofascists bring to the fight.

282 oslogin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:29:31pm

re: #174

"It is amazing what poor grammar can cause. Is this person calling our beloved Lizard Master a fascist rat, or is he comparing one drawing to another? Inquiring minds would like to know".

I'm guilty as charged! Poor grammar is my crime! Anyway, I have attempted to straighten it out now. This is what happens when I am to eager to post. Since English is not my native tongue, I should really learn to proofread more than once.

"I'm a little concerned about Eurofascism.info's blending of Eurabia with Vlaam, the SD, and other White Power groups. It looks like they're equating any opposition to the Islamization of Europe with White power groups, which is wrong".

Even if you do oppose Islam as a whole, and even if you do oppose Islamisation, and even if you loath Wahhabism, the Eurabia conspiracy theory remains a conspiracy theory. It even involves the Vatican as part of the evil complot to turn all Europeans into dhimmis. Seriously. The Vatican.

The main contributor to the theory, Bat Ye'or, bases her research on extremely selective quoting (she for instance turns a statement of Prodi into the exact opposite of what he actually said), and on a highly original understanding of the political implications of literature conferences.

In addition she repeatedly refers to the thinking of a certain Alexandre del Valle. Why? That really beats me. But Del Valle is a highly interesting character.

While being anti-Islamic, he is – or at least was - also notably anti-American, describing the United States as a «totalitarian democracy». In light of Bat Ye'ors attacks on the «anti-American animosity that exudes from every sector of activity covered by the EAD» it is somewhat of a paradox that she relies on an author for which the US is a lone superpower intent on preventing any other power from emerging and also is determined to control Europe: «The United States has launched a war against the Old World». In fact, to Dupont, Islamism is a whip used by the United States against Europe (One of his books is called: «Islamisme et Etats-Unis: Une alliance contre l'Europe», i.e. Islamism and the United States: an alliance against Europe).

Del Valle writes of American culture that it «is a culture of subversion conceived to uproot and weaken the peoples that are subjected to it passively. The moral and cultural disintegration of the European nations caused by the Americanization of the minds and mores» is seen as the fundamental problem. On account of not being «organic», «homogenous» and «natural» the United States is a degenerate nation. The «Epicurean Occidental-American culture» is all-destructive, and fosters «the social and moral disintegration» of Europe. A «renaissance of Europe's spiritual identity» is necessary and will be made possible since the «mcWorld culture [sooner or later] will be doomed to destruction, given its inherently anti-traditional and heterogeneous, fragile nature. Its nihilism generates sterility in all meanings of the word, it appears fundamentally as a culture in decomposition, which is organically necessary to American imperialism».

Notice the references to "organic" nations. That is not said in the environmentalist sense of the word, I assure you. In fact, it is a tad of rather classical fascist thinking.

And surprise... surprise... Del Valle, who today is close to pro-Zionist groups, has a dark past in anti-Semitic and fascist groups.

The problem here is that too many Americans, who are very understandably worried about jidadism, reactionary Islam, and Islamic fascism; have started listening to people who they should not be listening to.

And so have many Europeans.

I don't suspect Bat Ye'or of being a fascist, but I do blame her for providing a considerable part of the Eurofascist mythos by spreading the false idea of a Eurabian conspiracy.

283 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:29:44pm
284 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:30:28pm

re: #273 Iron Fist

They can't fight on their own, or defend themselves, not allowed by law. That's what I mean about Governments actively against the native population. If they go out and defend themsleves the Government acts against them instead of the islamists. What you propose sounds ideologically correct except that it doesn't work in Europe anymore. Citizens don't have a right to fight anymore and that is what most North Americans can't understand.

285 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:31:32pm

re: #278 BabbaZee

Ta! Much clearer!

The more cracked the ideas, the worse the writing. Dorothy Sayers once asked, through a character, why subscribing to any off-beat group had such a deleterious effect on grammar. I've asked that a lot.

286 danger close  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:31:44pm

re: #258 pegcity

Anti-capitalism sells like hotcakes.

287 wilinsky  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:32:06pm

#247 BabbaZee
"Inflating the threat..."
You mean beyond what Bat Yeor, Daniel Pipes, Mark Steyn and others have written? So is this guy an 'opponent' we should read so we can see how our enemies think? What are you going to 'argue at his blog'? I'm afraid I don't agree with you. I don't have time to waste reading a book by someone who is so far off base as to advertise his book using the phrase 'the myth of Eurabia'. Could be he is the one your words apply to: 'agenda driven, ignorant of the methods and thoughts of his opponents, and over time his ignorance has stagnated into intellectually dishonesty.'

288 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:32:23pm
289 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:32:32pm

re: #273 Iron Fist

What do the Nazis bring to the table that is so great, anyway? That's what I don't understand.

One of the most astonishing things I've learned about Europe over the recent years is their 'racialist' foundations. Note that I don't say 'racial supremacist' - just 'racialist'. The idea that blood is a vecture of culture is in their bones, believe me.

Therefore, for many of them, what we see as 'racist' in the fascists is a mere gradation on a scale of greys.

I'm not kidding. Ask Yank in the EU, ask Babba. I've been 'talking' to Europeans intently for about 5 years now and I pick this up from people born well after WWII.

290 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:32:55pm

re: #280 Dianna

Yes, born and raised in Holland before coming here in my late teens.

291 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:34:42pm

re: #282 oslogin

Uff Da my friend.
Welcome to LGF.

I have a question for you :

Do you understand and will you acknowledge that the point of the Jihad is Global Domination IOW the establishment of the World Wide Caliphate?

292 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:35:03pm
293 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:35:19pm

re: #289 wahabicorridor

Therefore, for many of them, what we see as 'racist' in the fascists is a mere gradation on a scale of greys.

That doesn't make it right.

294 trailortrash  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:35:34pm

if you lay down with dogs you get fleas.

295 JHW  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:36:06pm

Well, a certain Scots taxi-driver "fought back" and his government didn`t
prosecute or persecute him. Look for more of his type the more the jihadis keep pushing.

296 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:36:28pm

re: #289 wahabicorridor

I was shocked when I began to understand this aspect but yes I witness it as true too.

297 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:37:22pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

That doesn't make it right.

maybe in your opinion, but not in theirs. I wouldn't judge them till you've lived through the crap they have to.

298 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:37:31pm

re: #287 wilinsky

OK, don't agree with me.
Not a problem.

299 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:38:08pm

re: #290 Johnny Canuck

Ah, that explains some irritating homonym errors.

I also think you're panicking prematurely, and that working with supremacists will simply result in more atrocities. After the 20th Century, it would be nice to try something different.

300 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:38:47pm

re: #285 Dianna

I'm a little da-da poet-y to same anything about formalities like grammar and spelling

But I am big on brevity.


I have to go!


BBL

301 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:39:11pm
302 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:39:42pm

re: #295 JHW

Only because it was such a spectacular event and was all over the MSM. If he'd done that when nobody was looking he'd probably be in jail for a hate crime.

303 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:40:18pm

re: #297 Johnny Canuck

So now the answer is "B"?

/That makes your answer "F"

304 JHW  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:40:55pm

re: #302 Johnny Canuck

We`ll have to disagree on that. I`ll bet he`s still getting free beers.

305 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:41:42pm
306 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:45:24pm

re: #299 Dianna

Ah, that explains some irritating homonym errors.

I also think you're panicking prematurely, and that working with supremacists will simply result in more atrocities. After the 20th Century, it would be nice to try something different.

Sorry but I'm not here to win a literary award. While I'm sure your superior thinking might lead you to conclude I'm "Panicking prematurely", it's not your relatives that are getting beat up and intimidated by gangs of "youths". If your @ss (or someone in your family) was on the line I'd bet you would change your tune in a hurry.

They might not be taking the "morally" acceptable road, but the only road available.

307 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:48:21pm

re: #306 Johnny Canuck

They might not be taking the "morally" acceptable road, but the only road available.

Again- bullsh*t. The opportunists want you to believe that!

308 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:48:56pm

re: #304 JHW

I'll bet he is too, and rightfully so. I also think it is only due to the fact that it was a spectacular media event, and going after him now would create an outcry. But for all the other little events, citizens would be thrown under the jihad cart.

309 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:50:26pm

re: #306 Johnny Canuck

I must disagree. I've been on the receiving end of a great deal of unpleasantness in my life, and I don't take just anyone as an ally.

310 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:50:27pm

re: #307 Sharmuta

Again- bullsh*t. The opportunists want you to believe that!

It must be nice to live life looking through rose colored glasses.

One day you'll wake up and find that the moral high ground is covered in shit.

311 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:51:01pm

re: #249 Sharmuta

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the '1389' blog has multiple contributors and the ex-LGFer who goes by the '1389' was the one who started the blog.

But who knows, 'it' may have even hastily plagiarized someone else's work, forgetting to change 'he' to 'she'?

312 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:52:31pm

re: #309 Dianna

Are you saying that you wouldn't accept help at the time of an unpleasant event from just anyone, you be picky about who comes to your aid?

313 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:53:58pm

re: #310 Johnny Canuck

Mkay. So- can I officially call you a fascist sympathizer? Or would you prefer we call you jeppo2?

314 Kulhwch  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:54:26pm

re: #109 Charles

re: #108 Kulhwch


Why is the black rat w/the hammer trampling on only American symbols, like the Statue of Liberty, a basketball hoop, golden arches for McDonalds, Scrooge McDuck, etc., and then saying good riddance to the enemies of Europe?  Has Vlaams Belang as the spokesgroup for Europe declared war against America?

}:/     [If so, let them try.  We've plenty of asskicking to hand around ... ]


Please note: that's not a Vlaams Belang poster. But the rat character does appear in the Vlaams Belang youth magazine.

Ah, thanks, Charles, I stand corrected.  The Baron certainly don't curry American indulgence with such crapola.

}:)     [I think he's reached the point of diminishing returns on this ... ]

315 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:55:24pm

re: #306 Johnny Canuck

They might not be taking the "morally" acceptable road, but the only road available.

I've talked to enough people in Europe who are not in any way shape or form racial supremacists, totalitarian sympathizers, etc., who do indeed feel so imminently threatened by the Islamists that they feel utterly trapped. Who am I to tell a father in the Netherlands with 2 Jewish sons who to pick his battles? Utlimately, I can't - I can hold people to the dictates of the own consciences, no more, no less.

But here's the part where their argument falls away. If the fascists are so weak right now they are not a threat, what's the problem with throwing them overboard now, when they're weak? Is it somehow going to be possible after they've attained the power the anti-jihadi movement has helped them achieve?

I've never got a good answer to that one.

316 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:55:37pm

re: #268 BabbaZee

re: #275 Dianna

re: #268 BabbaZee

re: #250 guftafs

There is a whole perverted world out there of these super highbrow
intellectually inflated
we desperately need an editor
type racists
and their stuff trickles down through the network to the toothless skinheads and the excon arayans

Sick

He aspires to be one of the "thinkers" of the "movement" IMO

oy.

I am now confused; who needs an editor? Or were you quoting and it didn't format?

Yes, probably. As such, he's quite good, but not good enough. He may fool Europeans who are already half over on his side, but not thinking people, not in the long run.

(OT Read Browning's "Police Battalion 99" or something if you haven't already to see how many of the "good" Germans partook in the big H.)

317 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:57:07pm

re: #313 Sharmuta

Why is it that when Idealist can't convince someone of their panaceatic view of the world, they reduce themselves to name calling, very intellectual of you.

if you can't understand what Europeans are going through just say so!

318 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:57:37pm

re: #312 Johnny Canuck

I've been picky. It's generally preferable.

319 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 12:59:35pm

re: #262 Pastorius

Thanks!

320 damnyanqui  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:00:14pm

The only reason the terrorists of today have such a vast base of territory from which to work is the pathological disunity of the civilized world that has tried, and failed, repeatedly to unite and confront them in the past.
Read about the tragicomic internecine fighting during the Crusades. You want to jump up and shout at your history book "stop it you idiots! Remember who the enemy is!"
France and the rest of Europe would all be speaking German if it hadn't been for the inclusion of the SOVIETS in the war against Hitler. Nice guys? Um, no. But when it counted, they were on the right side.
Sometimes you must accept your allies where you can find them... even if you wouldn't necessarily consider them friends.
To borrow from Benjamin Franklin, we must all hang together, or we will surely all hang, or be beheaded, separately.

321 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:00:44pm

re: #315 wahabicorridor

I'm not sure, maybe it's because

throwing them overboard now, when they're weak,

is counter productive because they are the only ones screaming loud enough that they get noticed and some traction in the fight against the islamization of Europe.

just a thought.

322 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:00:46pm

re: #287 wilinsky

BTW you can read the archived posts at my blog if you wonder how seriously I personally view the threat of Jihad.

Because he does not view it that way is not an impediment to the conversation is all I am saying.

Also he is in Europe and I am not, and I need to respect that those people who are there inside the situation on both sides of the discussion most certainly have knowledge I can no have from here.

So I listen and I discuss and I learn.

It's how I learned about jihad the last six years and it is how I will learn about this too.

GOT TO GO

BBL

323 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:01:31pm

And in the end the nihilists on the right are no better than the nihilists on the left.

It's why Pat Buchanan agrees with Jeremy Rifkin on several statist points.

324 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:02:07pm

re: #311 konservo

I checked- it's just her him it. And- it added you to it's blog roll. Kind of funny railing against LGF, but it'll link to you when you're just as strong an opponent of all this as Charles.

325 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:04:15pm

re: #323 Thanos

It's why Pat Buchanan agrees with Jeremy Rifkin on several statist points.

We should invite those 2 over for an LGF drinking thread.

Target. Rich. Environment.

326 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:04:28pm

re: #321 Johnny Canuck

because they are the only ones screaming loud enough that they get noticed and some traction in the fight against the islamization of Europe.

Quite wrong.

You're confusing provocative costume drama with effective action.

327 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:04:50pm

re: #320 damnyanqui

re: #320 damnyanqui

The only reason the terrorists of today have such a vast base of territory from which to work is the pathological disunity of the civilized world that has tried, and failed, repeatedly to unite and confront them in the past.
Read about the tragicomic internecine fighting during the Crusades. You want to jump up and shout at your history book "stop it you idiots! Remember who the enemy is!"
France and the rest of Europe would all be speaking German if it hadn't been for the inclusion of the SOVIETS in the war against Hitler. Nice guys? Um, no. But when it counted, they were on the right side.
Sometimes you must accept your allies where you can find them... even if you wouldn't necessarily consider them friends.
To borrow from Benjamin Franklin, we must all hang together, or we will surely all hang, or be beheaded, separately.

But the situations are not the same, are they? The US does not need UNITY to deal with the Islamic threat. It could destroy it in weeks, had it the moral courage. What is the rest of the world going to do if the US invades Iran? Protest to the UN? oooh *scary*! Only George W Bush and Ms Rice would be neurotic enough to really care what the UN thinks. Bottom line is, if you can't back up your words with force, no need to listen. Is the rest of the world gonna declare war on the US if the US acts truly unilaterally? I think not.

328 oslogin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:05:07pm

#291:

BabbaZee asked: "Do you understand and will you acknowledge that the point of the Jihad is Global Domination IOW the establishment of the World Wide Caliphate?"

To Hizb-ut-Tahrir it is. To Osama it is. To Tawhid wa'l Jihad it is. To the Khomeynists I'm pretty sure it is. To a whole heck of other people it also is. That's more than enough for me. There exists a reactionary Islam (or actually several reactionary Islams) which very well could be compared with fascism. Terrorist groups and governments founded on or inspired by these ideas are dangerous - they have proven so many times. They will prove so again.

But if you're looking to get me to declare Islam as a a whole as evil, and as a warrior faith bent on world domination, you will have to wait for a while.

I have written more extensively on this here.

#247:

Bat Ye'or is - in my honest opinion - NOT a fascist. She is, however, wrong. She bases her analysis on a number of considerable flaws, and she spreads a conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory which in fact makes up a significant part of the mythos of Eurofascism and which sadly has gained quite a bit of a hearing amongst both conservatives and liberals.

I've literally fought my way through her main work on Eurabia, and I am more than willing to discuss this in the context of my book. It would help if you read my book, though. If you're not willing to, I can merely conclude that you have already decided what you will believe in, and that alternative views are of no interest to you. In this case, I can hardly see the point of discussion.

I'm no fan of Daniel Pipes. I sometimes agree with his analysis, but sometimes don't. On matters European, he is no expert.

Regardless of the many points I disagree with him on, I do - however - not consider him to be a fascist. He's not even close. I'm not living in a world of black and white.

In this context, I believe it is the most interesting to discuss the ideological thinking of real genuine Eurofascists. While I did not expect my reference to Eurabia as a myth being cheered here on LGF, I believe that the information I present on a range of other topics concerning European neo-fascism should still be of interest to LGF readers. Don't expect me to agree with you on everything, and I won't expect you to agree with me on everything.

Øyvind

329 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:05:54pm

re: #317 Johnny Canuck

And if I was a leftist making excuses for the islamofascists, would you not think of me or call me an islamofascist sympathizer? Be honest. All you're doing is making excuses.

330 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:06:53pm

re: #318 Dianna

Well, I hope that if your being physically assaulted, your rescuers are carrying resumes for you to review before they are allowed to help and stop the beating. Or at the least your attackers would consider your idealism and moralistic view so as not to beat you too hard.

Kind of a silly argument don't you think, I'll accept help from "A" but not from "B" because he doesn't believe in the same things as me.

331 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:08:20pm

re: #330 Johnny Canuck

re: #318 Dianna

Well, I hope that if your being physically assaulted, your rescuers are carrying resumes for you to review before they are allowed to help and stop the beating. Or at the least your attackers would consider your idealism and moralistic view so as not to beat you too hard.

Kind of a silly argument don't you think, I'll accept help from "A" but not from "B" because he doesn't believe in the same things as me.

Always with the over-the-top hypotheticals. Bikers in bars was the last I believe.

332 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:08:24pm

re: #328 oslogin

#291:

#247:

Bat Ye'or is - in my honest opinion - NOT a fascist. She is, however, wrong. She bases her analysis on a number of considerable flaws, and she spreads a conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory which in fact makes up a significant part of the mythos of Eurofascism and which sadly has gained quite a bit of a hearing amongst both conservatives and liberals.

I've literally fought my way through her main work on Eurabia, and I am more than willing to discuss this in the context of my book. It would help if you read my book, though. If you're not willing to, I can merely conclude that you have already decided what you will believe in, and that alternative views are of no interest to you. In this case, I can hardly see the point of discussion.
%uFFFDyvind

re: #328 oslogin

Very interesting. Is this analysis in your book too?

333 BabbaZee  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:08:32pm

Oyvind

well said
and
To be continued


I won't be back anymore now till very late tonight or in the AM

thanks for coming by

334 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:09:01pm

re: #297 Johnny Canuck

re: #293 Sharmuta

That doesn't make it right.

maybe in your opinion, but not in theirs. I wouldn't judge them till you've lived through the crap they have to.

Yeah, because, like, maybe there's no such thing as right and wrong, or Good and Evil. Maybe, like, we're blinded by our own cultural bias and we just can't see how 'racialism' (i.e. racism) is really valid in the framework of Fascism-Revivalists. Maybe non-racism and, like, freedom would be considered 'wrong' or 'evil' to these other cultures, you know? Who are we to judge European fascism enthusiasts?

Just like the beautiful, Glorious, Peaceful religion of Islam. Some of the things that Muslims do we call 'atrocious' and 'horrendous' etc., but if you think about, like, since Muslims are raised in a culture that teaches 'religionism' (i.e. religious bigotry), we can't really say anything about it, since, like you point out, we haven't seen things through their eyes.

/Post-Modern Moonbat

335 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:09:56pm

re: #332 guftafs

Sorry, I guess it is. Didn't read all of it.

336 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:10:09pm

re: #326 Dianna

Then maybe you should go there and try to reason with the unreasonable, I'm sure they'll listen to such a moralistic approach to their own demise as yours.

337 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:10:55pm

re: #328 oslogin

I've literally fought my way through her main work on Eurabia,

HA! 'Fought' is the right word, both for 'Eurabia' and 'Dhimmitude'. I think it must be bacause she learned to write w/in the confines of French Acadedamia. She's every bit as turgid as a Bach organ concerto.

338 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:11:04pm

re: #330 Johnny Canuck

Generally, I rescue myself. In long-term problems, I pick my allies carefully; it's a good idea to be sure they are aiming at your enemies, not measuring your back for the knife.

339 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:12:27pm

re: #331 Thanos

Hypotheticals to you, real life in Europe today.

340 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:13:47pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

re: #317 Johnny Canuck

And if I was a leftist making excuses for the islamofascists, would you not think of me or call me an islamofascist sympathizer? Be honest. All you're doing is making excuses.


He is not making excuses Sharmuta, I will vouch for that. He is telling you the truth about the way some people in Europe view the battlefield right now. Whether you agree that it is the correct view or not, holding it does not a priori make a person a fascist and telling the truth that people do indeed hold the view is not making excuses.

341 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:16:02pm

re: #324 Sharmuta

Actually, I wanted the 'Stop Blog Censorship' badge for my blog, and I, rather than just stealing it from the '1389' page, I took the time to complete the steps that '1389' lists. That's how my blog was placed on 'its' blogroll. But as soon as I read the crazy attacks on LGF there, I removed the badge from my blog.

342 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:16:05pm

re: #336 Johnny Canuck

You're truly off-base.

Do you really think people should simply cower, and wait to be defended from thugs by thugs? To my eye, that's simply the sheep trading one pack of wolves for another.

People are not sheep, no matter what the elitists and skull-crackers of both sides believe. They need to defend themselves, not cry out for a protector.

Of course, I'm an American. I don't wait for rescue, and I don't appeal to authority.

343 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:16:21pm

re: #339 Johnny Canuck

re: #339 Johnny Canuck

re: #331 Thanos

Hypotheticals to you, real life in Europe today.

I live in Europe and it is not a war. If it is, it is a war in which the vast majority is walking around, going to work, and couldn't care less. The situation is serious, with potentially very serious problems in the near future, but to say it is desperate is now is scare-mongering. And rather over the top, IMHO.

344 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:18:03pm

re: #338 Dianna

Sometimes you just don't have that many allies to chose from and make due with what's available. Like I said, it's all nice to be idealist, make sure you have all the warm and fuzzies, but sometimes your in the shit and will reach out to any hand in the darkness. If you don't, you die. Simple as that.

345 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:18:11pm

re: #334 konservo

The crypto-fascist sympathizers co-opt moral relativism from the left to wield as a weapon against us, but Charles and LGFers are the ones being called a bunch of PC liberals. Amazing!

What I find strange is the attempts to belittle the moral high ground. It's my understanding that the high ground is coveted in war, so why would you reject it? I guess I'm just not nuanced enough to understand, being a dumb American and all.

346 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:18:26pm

re: #342 Dianna

Of course, I'm an American. I don't wait for rescue, and I don't appeal to authority.

BINGO!

Probably the primary difference between the American and 'European' psyche.

347 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:19:50pm

There is a problem in Europe. That doesn't mean that the response to that problem should be to put the Nazis into power, and create a far worse problem than anything that can be imagined at present -- unless you go back in your imagination to the time of the original Nazis.

The Nazi solution would be a massacre of vast proportions, another Final Solution Holocaust, with a massive number of victims.

If not that, the best that they would offer would be an Isabella-type solution, in which all of the blacks, browns, and infidels would be expelled from Europe (if they had a place that they could be expelled to), or for those who had no place that they could be expelled to, imprisoned or worse.

Two approaches that are overlooked:
(1) The European non-Muslim population should have more children. They should at least have a birth rate that is larger than the death rate. Preferably, they should do even better than that.

(2) Muslim society in Europe should be reformed or enlightened or modified in a way so that it is not threatening.
How can it be that European Arabs have been protesting allowing Al Jezeerah to spread its radicalism throughout Europe, but the European elites are silent about this, and so is the rest of the non-Muslim population of Europe?

348 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:20:58pm

re: #339 Johnny Canuck

re: #331 Thanos

If the tribal nationalists worked as hard to get standard European law effectively enforced as they do spreading hate and hysteria theater, there wouldn't be the problems you speak to. Again, we had Stormfront saying the same thing about the riots in America a few years back. Race war has been coming any minute in theory since Brown vs. the board of education.

The problem in Europe isn't Islam, it isn't Multi-Cultis - it's effective application of law. Unfortunately the calls from regular moderate Europeans get tarnished or go unvoiced because it's the cause the tribal nationalists all pander to their base with. The tribal nationalists diminish the argument they don't strengthen it. Why? Because they make the self same argument that the Islamofascists do. Special rights/ laws/ priveleges based on group Identity. In once case blood and soil identity, in the other religious identity. You can't even see that you are the reverse mirror image, can you?

349 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:21:17pm

re: #343 guftafs

Just after the Russian Revolution, at a dinner during negotiations for the Soviets to withdraw from WWI, a German diplomat and an Austrian are watching the Russian delegation.

The German turns and says, "The situation is serious, but it's not desperate."

The Austrian - a Viennese, in the version I was told - shakes his head and replies, "No, my friend, the situation is desperate, but it's not serious."

350 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:22:38pm
re: #344

"Sometimes you just don't have that many allies to chose from and make due with what's available."

- Johnny Canuck

Isn't there a letter for this argument?

351 Egfrow  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:22:53pm

In nature 1+1=3

352 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:23:21pm

re: #345 Sharmuta

re: #345 Sharmuta

re: #334 konservo

What I find strange is the attempts to belittle the moral high ground. It's my understanding that the high ground is coveted in war, so why would you reject it? I guess I'm just not nuanced enough to understand, being a dumb American and all.

re: #344 Johnny Canuck

As a rule Europeans dispense with morality, urging "practicality" instead, the need for Realpolitik. Someone noted that only the Americans make movies where good and evil, right and wrong, is important. Keeping track of good and evil is of vital necessity to yourself. That's how you avoid being led into a concentration camp wondering how the backstabbing bastards could managed to get to power (with your aid), or find yourself engulfed by a world war fighting alongside fanatic racial murderers (volunteer to the Waffen SS). Care to try without ideals? Good luck to ya!

353 wilinsky  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:24:27pm

282 Oslogin
On your website you write in your sarcastic criticism of Horowitz's Islamo-Fascism Week:

'Yep. That’s right. Global warming, which could potentially screw up the economy, the climate, the whole friggin’ world and Ann Coulters hairdo, is nothing compared to a bunch of reactionary extremists keeping themselves busy with blowing up bombs in Iraq. I have to admit, guys: I wasn’t aware of that.'

I am widely read and have some professional expertise on the subject of 'global warming' and I am, I believe, well-informed on our problems in Iraq. I think you are very, very far off the mark on both issues, so I suspect that anything you have to say about European fascism or Bat Yeor is equally 'reliable'.

354 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:24:29pm
Notice how the fascist rat is smashing symbols of the “Enemies of Europe”. As a Carl Barks-fan, I am particularily amazed to see Uncle Scrooge’s head lying there.

Also in the picture are the Statue of Liberty and McDonald's arches. This illustrates again that the European fascists or "extreme right" are primarily anti-American and anti-capitalist. Don't ever mistake them for slightly misguided conservatives!

355 kirk  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:24:29pm

Charles,

I have followed this intramural spat for weeks now, with growing dismay.

Your arguments are sanctimonious, pedantic, tiresome, and unconvincing. The significance of this "issue" is belied by the very material posted on this site (and thank you for your many years of dedication in that regard), and posted on those of your opponents.

One does not always have the luxury of fastidiously vetting one's allies. The western world allied itself with one of the greatest mass murderers in history, Stalin, to defeat another, Hitler, and was right to do so.

If we must ally ourselves with those you claim to be impure to overcome the threat of islamofascism, then so be it. If you prove to be correct, their day of reckoning will come, as it did for Stalin's heirs.

In the meantime, let's together fight the enemy we all agree threatens our civilization.

356 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:26:54pm

re: #340 wahabicorridor

So because you say so, I'm supposed to change my opinion? Are you trying to tell me that because I'm not there I can't understand?

357 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:30:22pm

From Sun Tzu, The Art of War, chapyer VII, paragraph 12:

We cannot enter into alliances until we are acquainted with the designs of our neighbors.

We cannot enter into an alliance with Nazis without knowing their designs. And we have a good idea of their designs from what the Nazis have done in the past.

358 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:31:26pm

re: #350 konservo

That one sounds like "D"...maybe "C".

/They always move to "F"

359 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:31:46pm

re: #355 kirk
You can't fight one form of fascism by allying with another.

360 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:34:02pm

re: #343 guftafs

How bad does it have to get before you acted? At some point you reach a position where you are beyond saving yourself. Do you really want to get to that point because it is optically more correct.

I prefer to save myself before I loose my head, thanks!

361 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:35:12pm
362 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:36:18pm

konservo- I'm glad you yanked that from your blog. You have quickly become one of my more favorite posters, and I'm glad you've joined us here at LGF.

363 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:36:38pm

re: #360 Johnny Canuck

See my previous comment about morality or ideals. I don't know about the future in Europe. The white nationalists may very well win out. They'll have your tacit support, I take it?

364 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:37:18pm

re: #355 kirk

In this case, we do have the luxury and have taken the opportunity to look into VB, and they're not wanted, nor are they needed.

365 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:37:22pm

re: #355 kirk

Charles,

I have followed this intramural spat for weeks now, with growing dismay.

Your arguments are sanctimonious, pedantic, tiresome, and unconvincing. The significance of this "issue" is belied by the very material posted on this site (and thank you for your many years of dedication in that regard), and posted on those of your opponents.

One does not always have the luxury of fastidiously vetting one's allies. The western world allied itself with one of the greatest mass murderers in history, Stalin, to defeat another, Hitler, and was right to do so.

If we must ally ourselves with those you claim to be impure to overcome the threat of islamofascism, then so be it. If you prove to be correct, their day of reckoning will come, as it did for Stalin's heirs.

In the meantime, let's together fight the enemy we all agree threatens our civilization.


Yes the Stalin argument back once more... how many times has this chestnut been rolled out?

The facts are that we don't need VB, they bring a great deal of bad baggage coupled with little worth. They would lose us more allies than we would gain.
Stalin at least delayed the Nazis a bit while we got into the real war, VB would crumble like Poland *OR GO OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE* like they did last time, n'est ce pas?

Besides that Stalin thing did not turn out so well did it?

Got another argument besides "we must accept a small, unecessary, but insidious evil in order to fight a great evil?"

366 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:38:12pm

re: #2 zombie

I fear this argument will never end.

It *can* end, Zombie...

...if everyone wanted it to.

Not enough people want it to end, yet.

~Norsk Troll

367 Johnny Canuck  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:38:43pm

re: #363 guftafs

If need be, I suppose so.

368 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:41:02pm

By the way: Has anyone found a political party that *IS* pure enough to be called an ally of the anti-jihad movement?

Can you please post it here?

I'd like to do some *ahem* "checking" of my own.

Heh, heh.

~Norsk Troll

/Please note: P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L, political, POLITICAL party.

369 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:41:20pm

re: #365 Thanos

Got another argument besides "we must accept a small, unecessary, but insidious evil in order to fight a great evil?"

Should I help him out with a list?

370 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:41:29pm

re: #366 EtNorskTroll

re: #2 zombie


I fear this argument will never end.

It *can* end, Zombie...

...if everyone wanted it to.

Not enough people want it to end, yet.

Obviously not or they wouldn't be here trolling for comments to cross post to CVF would they?

*wink*

371 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:42:09pm

re: #369 Sharmuta

re: #365 Thanos


Got another argument besides "we must accept a small, unecessary, but insidious evil in order to fight a great evil?"

Should I help him out with a list?

Smurfs are one of the good things made in Belgium btw.

372 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:42:58pm

re: #343 guftafs

re: #339 Johnny Canuck

re: #339 Johnny Canuck


re: #331 Thanos

Hypotheticals to you, real life in Europe today.


I live in Europe and it is not a war. If it is, it is a war in which the vast majority is walking around, going to work, and couldn't care less. The situation is serious, with potentially very serious problems in the near future, but to say it is desperate is now is scare-mongering. And rather over the top, IMHO.

Ditto.
From the very Belly of the Beast: Paris, France.

373 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:43:35pm
374 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:43:41pm

re: #179 WrathofG-d

re: #172 Sharmuta

Wasn't impressed when I figued out the lyrics to Roll Right either.

ROLL RIGHT
--- ---

Lick off the shot my stories shock ya like Ellison
Main line adrenaline Gaza to Tienanmen
From the basement I'm dwellin' in
I cock back tha sling to stone a settler
[etc. etc.]

RATM's politics always turned me off in the extreme, and musically they aren't my cup of tea either. A bit like (l'havdil) Richard Wagner in classical music: these guys have a nice riff once in a while (now if only their guitarist could do more than riff and imitate a scratcher), Wagner occasionally came up with pretty "radical" harmonic textures, but neither of them can "move" me enough musically to forget about their disgusting politics.

375 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:43:45pm

re: #368 EtNorskTroll

If you'd like to look into it more, and you're in Europe- what is stopping you? Do you need to be spoon fed? Why do you feel we are the ones who have to find the information for you? No one is stopping you from finding the answers to your own questions.

376 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:45:05pm

re: #354 Peter Verkooijen

Notice how the fascist rat is smashing symbols of the “Enemies of Europe”. As a Carl Barks-fan, I am particularily amazed to see Uncle Scrooge’s head lying there.

Also in the picture are the Statue of Liberty and McDonald's arches. This illustrates again that the European fascists or "extreme right" are primarily anti-American and anti-capitalist. Don't ever mistake them for slightly misguided conservatives!

Thank you for pointing that out. The items being smashed are the Stature of Liberty, MacDonald's, and a Disney character with a top hat.

What the Euro-fascists most object to are American values (symbolized by the Statue of Liberty), American influence (symbolized by MacDonald's), and the free-enterprise capitalist system (symbolized by the Disney character in the top hat).

The racist Euro-fascists are not friends of America; they are enemies of America.

377 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:45:11pm

re: #371 Thanos

LMAO! I have a feeling vlaams belang is also anti blue people. ;)

378 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:45:56pm

re: #356 Sharmuta

re: #340 wahabicorridor

So because you say so, I'm supposed to change my opinion? Are you trying to tell me that because I'm not there I can't understand?

Oh, Sharmuta, far be it from me to try to change any opinion of yours.

I have no idea why you don't understand.

I suspect it might have something to do with getting pleasure from hurling the 'fascist' epithet at people who, for some odd reason, think your insistance on the morality of your position may have more to do with your vanity than any repugnance on your part.

I think the choice to ally with fascists in the fight against jihadis is fatal, stragically, morally, politcally. But as I said above, when it comes to people who gaze at their Jewish kids across the dinner table, worried sick about what will become of them, I hold them to the dictates of their own conscience.

Oh, did I remember to say 'Bite me?'

379 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:46:28pm

re: #370 Thanos

re: #366 EtNorskTroll

re: #2 zombie


I fear this argument will never end.


It *can* end, Zombie......if everyone wanted it to.

Not enough people want it to end, yet.


Obviously not or they wouldn't be here trolling for comments to cross post to CVF would they?

*wink*

CVF?

What does that stand for, Thanos?

~Norsk TRoll

380 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:48:17pm
381 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:48:30pm

re: #361 Iron Fist

An acute observation!

382 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:49:44pm

re: #367 Johnny Canuck

I thought you would.re: #372 ryannon

Was in Paris last month. Not in the banlieues though. Beautiful city. How it will look in another 50 years is another question.

383 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:49:46pm

re: #361 Iron Fist

re: #347 EE,


How can it be that European Arabs have been protesting allowing Al Jezeerah to spread its radicalism throughout Europe, but the European elites are silent about this, and so is the rest of the non-Muslim population of Europe?


For a group that wants us to believe they have no choice but to ally with neo-Nazis, the Europeans sure aren't actually doing a lot, are they?

You are right. I agree.

384 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:50:12pm

re: #375 Sharmuta

re: #368 EtNorskTroll

If you'd like to look into it more, and you're in Europe- what is stopping you? Do you need to be spoon fed? Why do you feel we are the ones who have to find the information for you? No one is stopping you from finding the answers to your own questions.

No, Shar~

I mean ANY group from ANY country.

ANY political group. I'd like someone here to name ANY anti-jihad group that has a political affiliation that is made up of real, flesh & blood type people (not robots, or cyber groups or WoW, REAL PEOPLE).

I'd like to see ONE anti-jihad political group named that is approved by the LGF gang.

Just one...

Is that too much to ask for?

~Norsk Troll
/just one

385 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:51:39pm

*crickets*

386 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:52:06pm

re: #365 Thanos

re: #355 kirk

Charles,

I have followed this intramural spat for weeks now, with growing dismay.

Your arguments are sanctimonious, pedantic, tiresome, and unconvincing. The significance of this "issue" is belied by the very material posted on this site (and thank you for your many years of dedication in that regard), and posted on those of your opponents.

One does not always have the luxury of fastidiously vetting one's allies. The western world allied itself with one of the greatest mass murderers in history, Stalin, to defeat another, Hitler, and was right to do so.

If we must ally ourselves with those you claim to be impure to overcome the threat of islamofascism, then so be it. If you prove to be correct, their day of reckoning will come, as it did for Stalin's heirs.

In the meantime, let's together fight the enemy we all agree threatens our civilization.


Yes the Stalin argument back once more... how many times has this chestnut been rolled out?

The facts are that we don't need VB, they bring a great deal of bad baggage coupled with little worth. They would lose us more allies than we would gain.
Stalin at least delayed the Nazis a bit while we got into the real war, VB would crumble like Poland *OR GO OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE* like they did last time, n'est ce pas?

Besides that Stalin thing did not turn out so well did it?

Got another argument besides "we must accept a small, unecessary, but insidious evil in order to fight a great evil?"

Not only that, but we did not exactly choose Soviet Russia as allies. Hitler (y"sh) invaded them (violation a nonagression pact the two swine had made first so they could carve up Europe), and the Allies were already in the war anyhow. If Hitler y"sh had conquered European Russia and gotten access to all its natural resources, he would have been pretty much impossible to ever defeat. (Don't forget that it was THIS [shows two fingers together] close in December 1941 --- had the winter been a little milder, or had the invasion started a few months earlier, or had Stalin y"sh clung to personal command for a bit longer rather than turn things over to people like Zhukov...)

387 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:52:41pm

re: #384 EtNorskTroll

I'd like to see ONE anti-jihad political group named that is approved by the LGF gang.

Does UKIP count?

Off to peel shrimp. BBL

388 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:55:13pm

re: #362 Sharmuta

Thanks, I'm happy to hear you say that! Charles secretly left the door open when I sneaked into LGF, and before that I honestly hadn't read much of the comments. So now that I've engaged in some of the discussions here I have a greater appreciation for this blog.

I'm pleased to have made your acquaintance, and to have met the other lizards as well.

389 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:55:27pm

re: #368 EtNorskTroll
It's not a question of "purity". To me this is about defense of liberal* democracy, freedom of speech, rule of law, national sovereignty, etc.

European fascists are fundamentally on the other side, with the islamists and the socialists. The enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend.

These totalitarian ideologies have always battled eachother, but they can also be allies when it suits them, as the left-islamist convergence shows. Remember that Jean Marie Le Pen and Jorg Haider visited Saddam Hussein in show of support before the war. Members of German neonazi party NDP protested against the war with Kein Blut Fur Ol flags.

Again, don't ever mistake European fascists for slightly misguided conservatives. They have nothing in common with what is branded the political right in the US.

* I mean classic liberalism, the original meaning of the word, not the American euphemism for socialism.

390 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:56:19pm

re: #380 jeppo

When I googled "Odin's Cross" I found two different symbols both known secondarily as Odin's Crosses. The first one is the same cross as the one on Dewinter's bookshelf, a circle with the spokes of the cross protruding through the circle's perimeter. The primary name for this symbol is a Celtic Cross.

The second symbol was similar, but the spokes of the cross ended at the circle's perimeter. The primary name for this one is a Solar Cross. Can anyone provide a definitive description of an Odin's Cross? Which symbol is it?

www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_celtic_c ross.asp
altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/s ymbols/bldefssolar.htm


It doesn't matter, everyone knows the symbol we are reffering to, and it's modern, here and now meaning. This guy can probabably tell you the modern meaning of the symbol in question. Wahalla awaits the dead nazi he talks about like paradise awaits jihadis. 72 virgins or 72 valkyries, what's the difference?

391 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:56:55pm

re: #389 Peter Verkooijen

re: #368 EtNorskTroll
It's not a question of "purity". To me this is about defense of liberal* democracy, freedom of speech, rule of law, national sovereignty, etc.

European fascists are fundamentally on the other side, with the islamists and the socialists. The enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend.

These totalitarian ideologies have always battled eachother, but they can also be allies when it suits them, as the left-islamist convergence shows. Remember that Jean Marie Le Pen and Jorg Haider visited Saddam Hussein in show of support before the war. Members of German neonazi party NDP protested against the war with Kein Blut Fur Ol flags.

Again, don't ever mistake European fascists for slightly misguided conservatives. They have nothing in common with what is branded the political right in the US.

* I mean classic liberalism, the original meaning of the word, not the American euphemism for socialism.

Please name a group, Peter.

Thanks.

Best regards,
~Norsk Troll

392 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:56:58pm

re: #378 wahabicorridor

You have a very nasty habit of reducing your argument to the equivalent of a school yard taunt- and you're the one claiming you're trying to teach. For some reason, I get the feeling as a "teacher" you'd give me an "F" and it wouldn't stand for "fail".

I'll ask again (not that it will do me any good in your gracious and nuanced mentality)- if I were to make excuses for islamofascists, would I not be called an islamofascist appeaser/apologist?

393 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:57:05pm

re: #382 guftafs

Like everything else: 50 years older.

Or maybe just a crater.

How will anything look in 50 years?

Too many variables and imponderables.

I don't think that the Eiffel Tower will have been converted into a mosque, however - if that's what you're trying to imply...

394 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:57:25pm

re: #373 Iron Fist

re: #368 EtNorskTroll,

So neo-Nazim is just a political party? Tell me, is there anyone so corrupted that you wouldn't accept their help? So why aren't you calling for an alliance with Shi'ite Iran against the Sunnis?

We could give them Europe as a bargining chip.

Good for you. You have utterly defeated their argument, and shown how ridiculous it is.
Kudos to you.

395 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 1:58:21pm

re: #385 EtNorskTroll

*crickets*

There arent' any political groups who are pure. That's simple. There aren't many who are as evil as national socialism either. It's not purism, it's degree of evil so quit with the smoke ET.

396 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:00:18pm
re: #384 EtNorskTroll


I mean ANY group from ANY country.

ANY political group. I'd like someone here to name ANY anti-jihad group that has a political affiliation that is made up of real, flesh & blood type people (not robots, or cyber groups or WoW, REAL PEOPLE).

I'd like to see ONE anti-jihad political group named that is approved by the LGF gang.

Just one...

Is that too much to ask for?

~Norsk Troll
/just one

The United States of America

397 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:00:47pm

#392 Sharmuta

if I were to make excuses for islamofascists, would I not be called an islamofascist appeaser/apologist?

Good point.
It's a question that the apologists for the Euro-Nazis cannot answer honestly, without defeating their own argument.

398 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:01:29pm

re: #387 wahabicorridor

re: #384 EtNorskTroll

I'd like to see ONE anti-jihad political group named that is approved by the LGF gang.

Does UKIP count?

Off to peel shrimp. BBL

You don't mean this UKIP, do you wahabi:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] ?!?

This party, who's leader is Nigel Farage and is loved by these despicable people, do you:

[Link: www.stormfront.org...] ?
I misunderstood you, right?

Right?

~Norsk Troll

399 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:02:55pm

re: #395 Thanos

re: #385 EtNorskTroll

*crickets*

There aren't' any political groups who are pure. That's simple. There aren't many who are as evil as national socialism either. It's not purism, it's degree of evil so quit with the smoke ET.

So we can't align with ANY anti-jihadi group who has a political affiliation, Thanos?

Is that what the group posits?

Am I mis-understanding here?

~Norsk Troll

400 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:03:14pm

re: #384 EtNorskTroll

Again- why do I have to spoon feed you? I know why you're really here, so I'm done with you (once again). Back on GAZE.

401 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:03:52pm
402 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:04:06pm

Are the Nazis to be considered the equivalent of all other groups?
This is a kind of moral equivalence that doesn't make any sense, considering the history of the Nazi movement, which sparked a world war in which tens of millions of people perished.

403 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:04:10pm

re: #399 EtNorskTroll

re: #395 Thanos


re: #385 EtNorskTroll

*crickets*

There aren't' any political groups who are pure. That's simple. There aren't many who are as evil as national socialism either. It's not purism, it's degree of evil so quit with the smoke ET.

So we can't align with ANY anti-jihadi group who has a political affiliation, Thanos?

Is that what the group posits?

Am I mis-understanding here?

~Norsk Troll

Yes you are intentionally completely misunderstanding.

404 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:04:58pm
re: #384 EtNorskTroll

I mean ANY group from ANY country.

Mr. Troll,

Almost every legitimate political group is anti-jihad.

405 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:05:07pm

re: #391 EtNorskTroll
The Republican Party!

Your challenge is just dumb. You clearly don't understand the first things about politics and history.

Talking about underlying ideologies you can make clear judgements between who's on your side and who isn't, even if you can disagree with some points, actions, at some times.

406 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:06:14pm

re: #397 EE

Thank you. You are another one of my favorites, so your post means a lot to me because I value your take.

407 oslogin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:06:34pm

re: #353 wilinsky

Ah, so because we disagree on other issues I must be wrong about everything?

How very logical, indeed.

European neo-fascism happens to be a field I've spent irreasonably much time on, I have done thorough research for my book and for my articles. If you do not believe what they are saying, I ask you to kindly scrutinize my sources and my analysis. But merely disregarding it because I disagree with you on global warming? Come on.

408 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:10:34pm

re: #401 jeppo

In a previous thread both Thanos and Yank in the EU mentioned the Lijst Dedecker, a conservative nationalist Flemish political party with similar policy positions to the Vlaams Belang, but seemingly without their historical baggage. This is a brand new and still very small party, and there's not a lot of English language information on them. Maybe some Dutch-speaking lizards could further enlighten us about the LD.

I've asked since the very beginning of this controversy for an anti-jihadist alternative to the VB and have never received an answer. Constructive criticism requires that the anti-VB side offer a positive alternative. So is the Lijst Dedecker worthy of our support? If not then who should anti-jihadist Flemings support at the ballot box (besides the VB and LD)?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_Dedecker


The other point is that there are centrist parties that could be won over if people were willing to drop the "pardon our nazi dust" baggage. NVA comes to mind as well as even the CDV if even honest tries were made.
Yes they have some baggage as well, (I think even LD has some) but not near as much in leadership position as VB does, and they aren't asking for racial apartheid.
A good case really does exist for rational immigration controls, but groups like VB defeat it by stepping to the front and being the poster children for why it's racist. The left easily defeats you because of VB. It's not racist to control immigration as long as the controls are not based on criteria of groups, but instead based on standards applied to individuals.

409 oslogin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:10:59pm

re: #332 guftafs

Yes, I do write a bit about Bat Ye'or and her Eurabia theories in my book, if that is what you are asking about. It is however one of the topics I hope to cover in greater detail in future articles; as the book naturally covers a bit too many topics to discuss everything equally thorough.

What I have included in my book are some examples I think are very illustrating to the flaws of Bat Ye'ors thinking.

410 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:11:58pm

re: #405 Peter Verkooijen

re: #391 EtNorskTroll
The Republican Party!

Your challenge is just dumb. You clearly don't understand the first things about politics and history.

Talking about underlying ideologies you can make clear judgements between who's on your side and who isn't, even if you can disagree with some points, actions, at some times.

No, you don't really mean the Repulican Party, do you Peter:

Please take a look at who the "Republican Party" is running (or allowing to run) for POTUS:

BTW, Haaretz is hardly an anti-Mormon paper and they know a thing or two about closet Nazis:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

How about Ron Paul? Care to hear a little about what the freaks at STORMFRONT think about him?

[Link: www.stormfront.org...]

(Kindly note the "Odin's Cross" in the supporter's Avatar)

Here's more goodies about ol' Paul:
[Link: www.google.com...]


*Buuurp!*

More, please...

~Norsk Troll

411 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:12:40pm

re: #399 EtNorskTroll

You have raised a straw man, to misrepresent the common sense position.

The problem is not that the Nazis are not pure as the driven snow. The problem is that they are intensely evil.

Why do you exclude the middle, between perfect purity and the sort of evil represented by the Nazis?

That represents a kind of moral blindness, to make everything morally equivalent.

412 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:13:35pm

re: #401 jeppo

Someone like Geert Wilders in the Netherlands is a good ally. He's a committed democrat*. It's not about avoiding/whitewashing historical baggage. Where do you stand ideologically?

In particular, what exactly do you mean by "nationalism"? Do you want to defend the liberal* nationstate, with its sovereignty, democracy, rule of law? Or are you talking about a more mystical blut-und-boten race-based nationalism?

I don't know Lijst Dedecker...

* again, in the original European sense, not the American euphemism for socialism.

413 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:14:41pm

re: #410 EtNorskTroll
GAZE

Again if you didn't catch the clue earlier, ET's just here to pimp posts to crosspost at the apologist blogs. He knows we hate Ron Paul for many of the same reasons, he also knows that Ron Paul is marginalized now in the Republican party for many of the same reasons.

Try again ET, or ET phone home.

414 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:15:08pm
415 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:16:49pm

This is juuussst too priceless to not post:

"Is Ron Paul the One?

by Charles Coughlin

Do patriotic White Americans finally have a candidate they can vote for without fear of being sold out again? The Bush family has proven itself the equivalent of political toxic waste. The Bush family supports Open Borders and sees nothing wrong with filling America up with Mexicans. Bush Junior’s occupation of Iraq has cost the Republicans control of Congress. Many Republicans would like to see a complete change of direction. Ron Paul has been consistently against the Iraq War and he also supports securing the Mexican border."

[Link: www.stormfront.org...]

Ron Paul for Republican President Candidate~!

Yeah...suuurrre.

*spit*

~Norsk Troll
/Ps. Please note that if the GOP didn't want you running for POTUS under the GOP banner, there are MANY, MANY things they could do to ruin you as a candidate...things that the Republican Party has refused to do, to date. They are allowing ol' Paul and his racist, Jew-hating followers to run.

416 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:17:04pm

re: #414 jeppo

re: #390 Thanos


re: #380 jeppo

When I googled "Odin's Cross" I found two different symbols both known secondarily as Odin's Crosses. The first one is the same cross as the one on Dewinter's bookshelf, a circle with the spokes of the cross protruding through the circle's perimeter. The primary name for this symbol is a Celtic Cross.
The second symbol was similar, but the spokes of the cross ended at the circle's perimeter. The primary name for this one is a Solar Cross. Can anyone provide a definitive description of an Odin's Cross? Which symbol is it?

www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_celtic_c ross.asp
altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/s ymbols/bldefssolar.htm


It doesn't matter, everyone knows the symbol we are reffering to, and it's modern, here and now meaning. This guy can probabably tell you the modern meaning of the symbol in question. Wahalla awaits the dead nazi he talks about like paradise awaits jihadis. 72 virgins or 72 valkyries, what's the difference?

So in other words you have no idea what an Odin's Cross actually looks like. Why then does everyone here keep referring to it as an Odin's Cross when the ADL calls it a Celtic Cross? Because Odin's Cross sounds scarier and more Nazi-like than Celtic Cross? Do you really believe that playing these word-games strengthens your anti-VB argument?

Ok jeppo, you now convinced me that I must do a long post on this. You are not going to like it. Coming this weekend to a blog near you mr. smokescreen.

417 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:17:54pm

Jeppo, Can you take "whatever cross it is" on a flag to Ijzerwake?

418 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:18:42pm

Jeppo, Can you take "whatever cross it is" on a flag to Zangerfeest?

419 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:20:09pm

re: #410 EtNorskTroll

You're clutching at straws, Troll. I'm not going to waste more time on you.

420 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:20:14pm

Jeppo, Will the Baron or you wear one on a tee-shirt to church next Sunday, since it's just a "celtic cross" *note: match the one on Filip's bookcase -- not the real Celtic Cross like you find on graves*
Hrmm?

421 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:20:14pm

re: #411 EE

re: #399 EtNorskTroll

You have raised a straw man, to misrepresent the common sense position.

The problem is not that the Nazis are not pure as the driven snow. The problem is that they are intensely evil.

Why do you exclude the middle, between perfect purity and the sort of evil represented by the Nazis?

That represents a kind of moral blindness, to make everything morally equivalent.

You won't even name one single anti-jihad political party that would be approved of by the majority of posters at LGF, EE?

Not even one?

BTW, I'M an EE too.

My logic classes that I took in College never called it a straw-man fallacy when someone asked for an example of what is approved.

?
~Norsk Troll

422 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:20:39pm

Jeppo, Will you put a Celtic Cross flag on your car for a month?

423 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:21:24pm

re: #419 Peter Verkooijen

re: #410 EtNorskTroll

You're clutching at straws, Troll. I'm not going to waste more time on you.

*sigh*

Duly noted.

~Norsk Troll

Anyone else?

Can anyone else name a group for me?

424 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:22:46pm
425 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:22:57pm

re: #401 jeppo

In a previous thread both Thanos and Yank in the EU mentioned the Lijst Dedecker, a conservative nationalist Flemish political party with similar policy positions to the Vlaams Belang, but seemingly without their historical baggage. This is a brand new and still very small party, and there's not a lot of English language information on them. Maybe some Dutch-speaking lizards could further enlighten us about the LD.

I've asked since the very beginning of this controversy for an anti-jihadist alternative to the VB and have never received an answer. Constructive criticism requires that the anti-VB side offer a positive alternative. So is the Lijst Dedecker worthy of our support? If not then who should anti-jihadist Flemings support at the ballot box (besides the VB and LD)?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_Dedecker

Lijst Dedecker is a breakaway from one of Flanders' mainstream political parties, the OpenVLD (Open Flemish Liberal Democrats). Former Prime Minister and current caretaker PM Guy Verhofstadt belongs to OpenVLD, which competes for biggest party with Labor and the Christian Democrats.

OpenVLD is the successor party to what used to be called PVV (Party for Freedom and Progress), a classical-liberal pro-market party and the traditional political home of people who are pro-market and pro-American. Guy Verhofstadt was a hardcore Thatcherite in his younger years, but while he was PM the party moved so far to the left that many people no longer felt at home in the OpenVLD.

Lijst Dedecker, which bills itself as "the party of common sense" and "the healthy right-wing alternative", is an attempt to reclaim the PVV heritage. In the last elections, they picked up quite a few "VB voters by default" as well as some defectors among VB elected officials. I think they polled six seats in Parliament, and their very presence may induce OpenVLD to return to its roots.

Party frontman Jean-Marie Dedecker himself (an erstwhile judo coach who has been an MP for OpenVLD for some time) seems to be a bit of a ego-tripping jerkwad, from what I read by and about him. Especially his stated views on the Israeli-'Palestinian' public make me sick. The brain behind the party, a Belgian political science professor named Boudewijn Bouckaert who is also the chairman of classical-liberal think thank Nova Civitas, seems to be a bit more "kosher". What Lijst Dedecker emphatically does not have is any current or past association with Nazism or neo-fascism. Unlike the established parties, they do not consider the "cordon sanitaire" against the VB to be sacrosanct, and do not a priori rule out sitting in a coalition with the VB.

That's all I have time for now --- I had a minor accident (I am unhurt, thank G-d, but my bread-and-butter laptop is in a bad way) and am hogging somebody else's computer ;-)

426 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:23:11pm

re: #414 jeppo

That cross in that context is about as Celtic as a nazi swastika is really an ancient Vedic symbol of the cosmos...or whatever.

/same ol' ship

427 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:23:34pm

re: re: #409 oslogin

That quote of Prodi's, do you have it to hand, a url or something, and what Bat Ye'or said it meant and what you mean he really wanted to say?

#393 ryannon

I don't know what I meant ... meltdown :o.

(bbl)

428 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:24:36pm

re: #415 EtNorskTroll

Now go back to the Stormfront website and search that site for all references to Fjordman. Then search for all references to Vlaams Belang.

Note that almost all of the several hundred plus, (over 400 for Fjordman alone), references on Stormfront, to those two, are positive in nature.

Now, for comparison, search the same website for Little Green Footballs. All references are negative in nature.

===

I've seen what you've written on GoV. You are not honorable.

DISGRACE,
R

429 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:25:06pm

re: #424 jeppo
Sorry not changing the subject here. This discussion is about VB, not other parties as ET and you want to make it.

Are you going to answer my questions about the "whatever you want to call it" cross?

430 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:26:18pm

re: #421 EtNorskTroll

re: #411 EE

re: #399 EtNorskTroll

You have raised a straw man, to misrepresent the common sense position.

The problem is not that the Nazis are not pure as the driven snow. The problem is that they are intensely evil.

Why do you exclude the middle, between perfect purity and the sort of evil represented by the Nazis?

That represents a kind of moral blindness, to make everything morally equivalent.

You won't even name one single anti-jihad political party that would be approved of by the majority of posters at LGF, EE?

Not even one?

BTW, I'M an EE too.

My logic classes that I took in College never called it a straw-man fallacy when someone asked for an example of what is approved.

?
~Norsk Troll

I cannot speak for others. But to my way of thinking just about any group would be better than the Nazis.

In the US, we have the Republican Party and the Democrat Party. Despite criticsism of these parties, neither of these is akin to the neo-Nazis.

The fact that you can name one individual, Ron Paul, that is not popular here, and who is even unsavory, does not make the Republican Party akin to the neo-Nazis.

Do you know the difference between one individual of a party and a whole movement?

431 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:26:41pm

re: #427 guftafs

I know what you mean :-)

432 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:28:03pm

re: #425 Former Belgian

Sorry to hear about the accident! Hope it gets repaired.

433 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:28:37pm

re: #421 EtNorskTroll


My logic classes that I took in College never called it a straw-man fallacy when someone asked for an example of what is approved.

?
~Norsk Troll

That's because your asking for an example isn't the aspect of your argument that makes it fallacious.

You should have continued to study logic, if you had maybe you wouldn't be making such an ass out of yourself.

434 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:28:40pm

re: #410 EtNorskTroll

re: #405 Peter Verkooijen

How about Ron Paul? Care to hear a little about what the freaks at STORMFRONT think about him?

[Link: www.stormfront.org...]

(Kindly note the "Odin's Cross" in the supporter's Avatar)

Here's more goodies about ol' Paul:
[Link: www.google.com...]

Why do you think almost everybody here sits on the spectrum between ridicule and hatred for Ron Jeremy Paul? I personally trust Ron Paul about as much as Filip Dewinter.

Membership in the GOP means nothing in the USA context: anyone can register as a Democrat or Republican [or Third Party] when (s)he registers to vote.

435 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:32:28pm

re: #396 konservo

re: #384 EtNorskTroll

I mean ANY group from ANY country.

ANY political group. I'd like someone here to name ANY anti-jihad group that has a political affiliation that is made up of real, flesh & blood type people (not robots, or cyber groups or WoW, REAL PEOPLE).

I'd like to see ONE anti-jihad political group named that is approved by the LGF gang.

Just one...

Is that too much to ask for?

~Norsk Troll
/just one

The United States of America

USA is a country, Konservo. If it is a political group, please identify it's platform...

(NB! I'm walking you off a cliff...)

436 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:33:19pm

re: #428 Render

re: #415 EtNorskTroll

Now go back to the Stormfront website and search that site for all references to Fjordman. Then search for all references to Vlaams Belang.

Note that almost all of the several hundred plus, (over 400 for Fjordman alone), references on Stormfront, to those two, are positive in nature.

Now, for comparison, search the same website for Little Green Footballs. All references are negative in nature.

===

I've seen what you've written on GoV. You are not honorable.

DISGRACE,
R

Duly noted. *sigh*

~ENT

437 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:34:32pm

re: #424 jeppo

the VB are the largest political party in Flanders

OH! Well that makes it okay then.

/NOT!

438 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:36:04pm

Jeppo - I've got the 70 point plan on my hard drive, the pre-accomodations version. It's apartheid, it's old south segregation. Try again.

439 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:36:37pm

re: #430 EE

re: #421 EtNorskTroll

re: #411 EE

re: #399 EtNorskTroll

You have raised a straw man, to misrepresent the common sense position.

The problem is not that the Nazis are not pure as the driven snow. The problem is that they are intensely evil.

Why do you exclude the middle, between perfect purity and the sort of evil represented by the Nazis?

That represents a kind of moral blindness, to make everything morally equivalent.

You won't even name one single anti-jihad political party that would be approved of by the majority of posters at LGF, EE?

Not even one?

BTW, I'M an EE too.

My logic classes that I took in College never called it a straw-man fallacy when someone asked for an example of what is approved.

?
~Norsk Troll

I cannot speak for others. But to my way of thinking just about any group would be better than the Nazis.

In the US, we have the Republican Party and the Democrat Party. Despite criticsism of these parties, neither of these is akin to the neo-Nazis.

The fact that you can name one individual, Ron Paul, that is not popular here, and who is even unsavory, does not make the Republican Party akin to the neo-Nazis.

Do you know the difference between one individual of a party and a whole movement?

What about Mitt Romney, who held his Running for POTUS party at a place which was founded by a man WHO RECEIVED A MEDAL FROM HITLER?!?

And, this same Romney (after being told that it was not a good idea) still did it anyways?!@?

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

~ENT

/Ps. Please note that if the GOP didn't want you running for POTUS under the GOP banner, there are MANY, MANY things they could do to ruin you as a candidate...things that the Republican Party has refused to do, to date. They are allowing ol' Paul and his racist, Jew-hating followers to run.

440 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:38:00pm

re: #434 Former Belgian

re: #410 EtNorskTroll

re: #405 Peter Verkooijen

How about Ron Paul? Care to hear a little about what the freaks at STORMFRONT think about him?

[Link: www.stormfront.org...]

(Kindly note the "Odin's Cross" in the supporter's Avatar)

Here's more goodies about ol' Paul:
[Link: www.google.com...]

Why do you think almost everybody here sits on the spectrum between ridicule and hatred for Ron Jeremy Paul? I personally trust Ron Paul about as much as Filip Dewinter.

Membership in the GOP means nothing in the USA context: anyone can register as a Democrat or Republican [or Third Party] when (s)he registers to vote.

Nonsense: If the GOP didn't want you running for POTUS under the GOP banner, there are MANY, MANY things they could do to ruin you as a candidate...things that the Republican Party has refused to do, to date. They are allowing ol' Paul and his racist, Jew-hating followers to run.

~ENT

441 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:38:55pm
re: #435 EtNorskTroll

USA is a country, Konservo.

That's very observant of you, Mr. Troll. Here, have a cookie.

If it is a political group,

It is. In fact, it's country. (I thought we just covered that, it didn't sink in for you?)

please identify it's platform...

Sure.

[Link: www.law.cornell.edu...]

(If you don't read the amendments, don't come back here with more straw-man arguments)

442 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:43:01pm

re: #440 EtNorskTroll

In other words, we've gotten a look at Luap Nor, an obscure congresscritter from Texas and we don't like what we see. Perhaps the people of his district weren't aware that he was nuts, before.

Sunshine, the best disinfectant.

443 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:43:40pm

re: #441 konservo

re: #435 EtNorskTrollUSA is a country, Konservo.

That's very observant of you, Mr. Troll. Here, have a cookie.

If it is a political group,

It is. In fact, it's country. (I thought we just covered that, it didn't sink in for you?)

please identify it's platform...

Sure.

[Link: www.law.cornell.edu...]

(If you don't read the amendments, don't come back here with more straw-man arguments)

I didn't see anything about anti-jihad statements...

?

I'm sorry you can't come up with a political group, Konservo.

I thought SOMEBODY could. I actually thought that there would be several groups that could be pointed too (and pass the test).

The fact that you have to use "USA" and then cite the Constitution kind of worries me.

That's it?

This is all?

?

Let's assume for a moment that "USA" is valid: Are you saying that America is going it alone in the battle against the Jihadi's?

Is that what you are saying?

You didn't mention "Canada", "Mexico", "England"...et al.

Why is that?
~Norsk Troll

444 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:44:08pm
445 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:44:36pm

re: #442 Dianna

re: #440 EtNorskTroll

In other words, we've gotten a look at Luap Nor, an obscure congresscritter from Texas and we don't like what we see. Perhaps the people of his district weren't aware that he was nuts, before.

Sunshine, the best disinfectant.

Agreed.

~ENT

446 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:45:09pm

re: #437 Sharmuta

re: #424 jeppo


the VB are the largest political party in Flanders

OH! Well that makes it okay then.

/NOT!

Flanders is just an artificial construct anyway. It's just a small plot of land, and one fifth of the Flanders vote is less than 3 million votes. Big deal. I suspect next election they will lose electorate from several factors, one of which is trolls begging for more posts on VB with facts, thus bringing worldwide attention and shame to Belgium. Keep it up Jeppo, you are really helping the cause!

447 JHW  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:47:38pm

Don`t need these allies
Oi
Or these,
Graffiti
Most definitely not these guys either

Big Loser training a little future loser

More allies we dont need

Well, at least it`s not the Odin rune this time

Oops, spoke too soon

Odin`s Cross fashion accessories

People are saying the Odin`s cross is of no significance, but these guys seem to find a lot of significance in it. Allies like these would be absurd, worse than useless.

448 Dianna  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:51:12pm

I'm gone. Take care.

449 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:51:13pm
450 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:51:14pm

Actually, umm, no, there isn't anything that a US political party can do to prevent someone who registers in that party to run as a member of it. And anyone who is a citizen of the US can join any major party at will; no higher-ups check to see who you are.

This is why David Duke was able to run as a Republican. But no major Republican politicians offered him any endorsement. I haven't seen many major Republican politicians endorsing Ron Paul, either. Considering how justly unpopular he is, and the seamy nature of many who support him, it wouldn't be healthy for one's own next election campaign to endorse Ron Paul.

As to the choice of taking the offered evil hand or falling, if Darth Vader stretched out his hand to me, I would hope to have Luke Skywalker's uncompromising courage and decency. If Luke had taken Vader's hand, it would have been the end of him as a force for good, and the beginning of his career as an aider and abettor of evil. And so it will be for those in Europe who choose to ally with racists and/or fascists.

451 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:51:18pm
I didn't see anything about anti-jihad statements...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Separation of Church and State- not very islamic.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

That's pretty anti-jihadi, too.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

That might be the most un-islamic part of all! How hara'am!

konservo- I don't think he read it. What a surprise!

452 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:55:18pm

Jeppo, here's the symbols and flags that are outlawed in Germany... a country near Flanders...

Note that the flag with the Iron Cross on it is outlawed because it was a nazi flag; please note also that the Iron Cross by itself, as it appears on Iron Fist's jacket is not. Demonstrably not so since it appears on most modern German AF planes.

453 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:56:14pm

re: #449 jeppo

re: #420 Thanos


Jeppo, Will the Baron or you wear one on a tee-shirt to church next Sunday, since it's just a "celtic cross" *note: match the one on Filip's bookcase -- not the real Celtic Cross like you find on graves*
Hrmm?

Funny you should mention that, I just saw a cross just like Dewinter's outside a Catholic church yesterday. I'm not much of a churchgoer myself, and no I would not wear that symbol myself. But I'm Canadian not Flemish, and I certainly wouldn't prejudge anyone else who did so.

Well if it means nothing as you say, why won't you wear one then?

454 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:56:42pm

re: #443 EtNorskTroll

Mr. Troll,

I told you to read the amendments. (Hint: start with the 1st)

Do you know what jihad means?

And by the way, all legitimate political parties in the US, are anti-jihad, indeed, the United States of America itself is too, for jihad is incompatible with the US Constitution.

455 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:57:51pm
456 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:58:29pm

re: #450 Salamantis

As to the choice of taking the offered evil hand or falling, if Darth Vader stretched out his hand to me, I would hope to have Luke Skywalker's uncompromising courage and decency. If Luke had taken Vader's hand, it would have been the end of him as a force for good, and the beginning of his career as an aider and abettor of evil. And so it will be for those in Europe who choose to ally with racists and/or fascists.

A most brilliant analogy, Sala! And you're exactly right. Once we rationalize evil, no matter how "trivially", we've already descended down the slippery slope into a moral abyss. I think I'll take my chances at the bottom of Cloud City, too.

457 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 2:58:57pm
458 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:00:57pm

re: #457 jeppo

re: #426 ryannon


re: #414 jeppo

That cross in that context is about as Celtic as a nazi swastika is really an ancient Vedic symbol of the cosmos...or whatever.

/same ol' ship


Tell it to the ADL, not me.

The whole debate over the cross, like I said up top, is just smoke. There's much, much more than the cross, and apparently you wish for me to post it all. Ask and ye shall receive...


but be careful what you ask for.

459 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:02:54pm
460 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:06:17pm

re: #459 jeppo

You mean the platform that grants full amnesty to nazi collaborators?

461 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:07:56pm

re: #459 jeppo

re: #438 Thanos


Jeppo - I've got the 70 point plan on my hard drive, the pre-accomodations version. It's apartheid, it's old south segregation. Try again.

Let's talk about the platform they ran on in June 2007. You know, the one that attracted 800,000 votes, the one supported by the large majority of the counterjihadosphere.


Yes, and like most opportunistic parties they will say or do anything to get elected and gain more power. How effective are they? Votes count for naught if it's ineffective loons you elect.

462 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:11:42pm

We could also talk about Ijzerwake 2008 -- will VB leaders be there next August to observe the Flemish nationalist youth (VNJ, inheritors of the St Maartensfonds estate & mantle) lay wreaths for Irma LaPlasse, and Staff LeClerq like they were in 2007?

463 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:12:42pm

Oh- and jeppo-

wikipedia says:

You searched for nazi amnesty

No page with that title exists.

So spare me that argument that other european countries have done it- it's just not true.

464 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:13:41pm

Will they be marching next year with banners reading "Amnestie NU!"?

465 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:14:34pm
466 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:15:51pm

Will Filip Dewinter stop the presses for pamphlets that make a bigger deal out of some kid's grandma whose head got shaved than the people walking around with tatoos from Birkenau, Auschwitz, and Dachau?

467 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:15:56pm

re: #451 Sharmuta


konservo- I don't think he read it. What a surprise!

I don't think he did either.

I can't believe he asked this question:

Are you saying that America is going it alone in the battle against the Jihadi's?

Is that what you are saying?

You didn't mention "Canada", "Mexico", "England"...et al.

Why is that?

After his moronic post #384:

Just one...

Is that too much to ask for?

~Norsk Troll
/just one

I think it's time to ignore Mr. Troll. He's clearly being disingenuous.

468 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:17:01pm

re: #465 jeppo

What is your point, Jeppo?

After the cross issue has been muddled sufficiently, what's next? Dewinter's statements in the Shire News Networks interview about a 'white Europe', blacks and lesbians?

469 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:17:17pm

re: #212 BabbaZee

Shoot me an email if you do, since I don't attend LGF every day. Let's shift this controversy to a higher level. I am getting too used to the mudthrowing and bashing from both sides.

OT
I enjoy this debate. Things seem to be working out just fine, after all.

470 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:17:22pm

re: #454 konservo

re: #443 EtNorskTroll

Mr. Troll,

I told you to read the amendments. (Hint: start with the 1st)

Do you know what jihad means?

And by the way, all legitimate political parties in the US, are anti-jihad, indeed, the United States of America itself is too, for jihad is incompatible with the US Constitution.

Tell me, Konservo:

Will you share a fox-hole with Romney?

/just askin...

~ENT

471 Lynn B.  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:17:45pm

re: #355 kirk

If we must ally ourselves with those you claim to be impure to overcome the threat of islamofascism, then so be it. If you prove to be correct, their day of reckoning will come, as it did for Stalin's heirs.

In the meantime, let's together fight the enemy we all agree threatens our civilization.

Pay attention. Most of us here agree that the enemy that threatens our civilization is ... FASCISM. Both of the Islamo- and Neo-Nazi- varieties.

472 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:18:42pm

re: #463 Sharmuta


Since you seem to be spokeswoman for the States: thank you very much for kosova (not). But that's completely off topic, I'm sure.

473 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:21:30pm

re: #467 konservo

re: #451 Sharmuta


konservo- I don't think he read it. What a surprise!

I don't think he did either.

I can't believe he asked this question:

Are you saying that America is going it alone in the battle against the Jihadi's?

Is that what you are saying?

You didn't mention "Canada", "Mexico", "England"...et al.

Why is that?

After his moronic post #384:

Just one...

Is that too much to ask for?

~Norsk Troll
/just one

I think it's time to ignore Mr. Troll. He's clearly being disingenuous.

Very good.

I understand, Konservo.

To everyone else: Can you please name (N-A-M-E) me one political party that is approved of by the LGF posters the majority of the LGF posters and is also anti-jihad?

Anyone?

Just in case you missed it: P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L & N-A-M-E

No generalities.

I want specific, flesh & blood group(s) identified.

Thanks.

~ENT

474 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:21:46pm
475 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:22:18pm

re: #467 konservo

I think it's time to ignore Mr. Troll. He's clearly being disingenuous.

Yeah- sometimes I can't help but ask him why we need to spoon feed him, but I'm done asking that question. I know why he's here, as do most of the rest of us.

476 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:24:25pm

re: #471 Lynn B.

re: #355 kirk

If we must ally ourselves with those you claim to be impure to overcome the threat of islamofascism, then so be it. If you prove to be correct, their day of reckoning will come, as it did for Stalin's heirs.

In the meantime, let's together fight the enemy we all agree threatens our civilization.

Pay attention. Most of us here agree that the enemy that threatens our civilization is ... FASCISM. Both of the Islamo- and Neo-Nazi- varieties.

The pact with Soviet Russia is actually an example of how NOT to ally with evil to beat a greater evil. By the end of the war Soviet Russia, had, thanks to Western aid a fully mechanized army which it quickly made use of occupying Eastern Europe. The proper thing would have been to siphon just enough resources for the Soviets to survive, let the Nazis and Commies bleed themselves to death, and move in when they had both beat themselves to pulp. Minimum casualties for your own side. And NOT give as much as pink Roosevelt did.

477 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:26:27pm

re: #474 jeppo

re: #460 Sharmuta

re: #459 jeppo

You mean the platform that grants full amnesty to nazi collaborators?

Ah yes that old chestnut again. It doesn't say anything in the VB's English-language platform about any amnesty. Your information comes from a Wikipedia article that states that other European countries already have a full amnesty for WWII collaborators. You claim to have a source that says different. Please explain, or better yet link.

I wonder if CVF has any info on this matter. Have you tried them?

I wonder if you have tried listening to the interview with Filip Dewinter by Shire Network News, where the questioner asks him about pardon of Nazi collaborators that was "complete and unconditional" (if I remember correctly), and Dewinter did not contradict him?

478 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:27:14pm

re: #474 jeppo

Again- wiki states it is vlaams belang that is stating other european countries have done this. It's not true. Your "manifesto" is not in agreement with the facts. Dewinter himself does NOT deny this plank of the platform. He admitted it and obfuscated it. You would know this if you were honestly trying to understand the issue and had listened to the dewinter interview Charles had weeks ago.

479 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:29:58pm

re: #474 jeppo

What?

/too lazy to upload an Odin's cross avatar?

480 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:32:31pm

re: #472 bottehond

And you have a very nasty habit of putting words in my mouth. You are as disingenuous as ET. Go scapegoat someone else for your problems.

481 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:32:54pm
482 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:33:07pm

The three main thrusts of the tribal Flemish nationalists, these are reinforced every year at Zangerfeest and Ijzerwake as well as at most VB meetings, seminars, and talks:

1. Separation from Belgium (Summed up by "Splits NU !" "Belgie Barst !" etc. )
2. Identity (Summed up by "Eigen Volk Veerst!" and "Vlaams Kracht!" )
3. Amnesty for the Oostridjers and the collaborators. (summed up by Amnestie Nu!)

That's the Flemish Movement (Vlaams Beweging) in a nutshell.

483 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:33:56pm

re: #465 jeppo

So these guys are just sort of neo-Celts, right?

Sort of a politicized but folksy, back-our-roots movement like in French Brittany, replete with great music, mead, and the whole ball of (actually great) Celtic wax?

Or is it because Celtic Europe was non-Islamic and (apparently) white?*

So was Neanderthal Europe, come to think of it...

*apparently, but we'll never know: those foxy Celts never bothered to write anything about themselves.

484 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:35:03pm

re: #474 jeppo

re: #460 Sharmuta

re: #459 jeppo

You mean the platform that grants full amnesty to nazi collaborators?

Ah yes that old chestnut again. It doesn't say anything in the VB's English-language platform about any amnesty.

The relevant section of the *current* VB program (in Dutch):

[Link: www.vlaamsbelang.be...]

(scroll down to point g)

485 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:36:00pm

guftafs-

Notice jeppo says NOT A WORD about the nazi amnesty. Pathetic.

486 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:37:36pm

re: #466 Thanos

Playing the "Shoa" card is to be considered a weak argument. Immoral, even. Will you stop referring to the Shoa. My sons ancestors died in WW II.

487 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:37:47pm
488 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:38:42pm

re: #481 jeppo

re: #468 guftafs

re: #465 jeppo

What is your point, Jeppo?

After the cross issue has been muddled sufficiently, what's next? Dewinter's statements in the Shire News Networks interview about a 'white Europe', blacks and lesbians?

Yes that Dewinter sure is a fool for admitting that he would prefer his daughter not be a lesbian, or preferring non-Muslim white grandchildren. He should have realized that he would offend PC liberal Americans.

He said that he would support his daughter whatever her life-choices were. But then he would, wouldn't he...

Ugh

Fool? Why is it foolish to admit that you are a homophobe, racist and don't like Muslims? You basically agree with him but think you should lie about it? I'm not American, I am "European", not liberal PC. If you agree with him you are clearly in the wrong place and you have a disgusting character, and a hypocrite on top of that.

489 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:40:36pm

Hah! Finally finished the network cut, I"m off work now and actually concentrate on the conversation :) wheee!

It's Friii III III III DAY!

490 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:40:42pm
491 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:41:19pm

re: #480 Sharmuta

I ask you rational and normal questions. You usually respond in a hysterical manner. You pretend to have all the answers, and I ask for your answers. Don't complaint, your debating- ethics aren't any better than mine. You do Charles a lot more harm than good. I wouldn't choose you as a guard-dog, for sure. Stop quarreling and add to a solution. Unless you don't want one. Which would raise some questions on my side.

492 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:41:31pm

re: #486 bottehond

What?!?

RED,
R

493 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:42:12pm

re: #487 jeppo

How do I give you a link to that which does not exist? Besides- I already provided you with a non-link, but here's another:

You searched for nazi collaborator amnesty

No page with that title exists.

494 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:42:17pm

re: #489 Thanos

Actually: it's Saturday. You are getting behind, my friend.

495 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:42:58pm

re: #487 jeppo

re: #478 Sharmuta


re: #474 jeppo

Again- wiki states it is vlaams belang that is stating other european countries have done this. It's not true. Your "manifesto" is not in agreement with the facts. Dewinter himself does NOT deny this plank of the platform. He admitted it and obfuscated it. You would know this if you were honestly trying to understand the issue and had listened to the dewinter interview Charles had weeks ago.


Prove it Sharmuta. I'm just quoting the Wiki article that you used as your source on this matter. You claim to have a source that contradicts this. Please don't keep this important information to yourself.

Link?

Jeppo , we don't play the "prove that UFO's don't exist" game at LGF, please if you have evidence post a link, otherwise your argument is invalid. We've just show your outright lie that the VB wasn't asking for amnesty. It's there for the world to see.

496 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:43:06pm

re: #492 Render

What, what?

497 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:43:54pm
498 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:44:10pm

re: #490 Iron Fist

re: #465 jeppo,

Odin's Cross.

Enjoy.


That's a Celtic cross!

Everything's ok.

Nothing to see here...please move on...

499 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:45:36pm

re: #485 Sharmuta

guftafs-

Notice jeppo says NOT A WORD about the nazi amnesty. Pathetic.

Guess there's nothing to say ... :o,

500 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:46:20pm

re: #491 bottehond

You're a liar. Last night you most certainly did not ask reasonable questions. You did nothing but insult me and call me names as you're doing now. That I receive flack from you tells me I'm over the target. So feel free to continue- you are an unworthy opponent, and as such deserve nothing but GAZE from me.

501 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:46:20pm

re: #495 Thanos


"we don't play"


I think the "we" word is being usedway to much by some posters. Who are "we"? Do "we" think the same thing on every issue? Is "we" some kind of cult? No pun intended, but I thoroughly distrust "we" speakers.

502 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:46:25pm

re: #494 bottehond

re: #489 Thanos

Actually: it's Saturday. You are getting behind, my friend.

Where you are at it is, here tis Friday night, I am turning on the tunes, eating wontons, and pouring a cognac.

It's like the robotic butler in the Alfred Bester short story I suppose...
When asked why he said "It's a pleasant day" when it was raining he replied "It's always a pleasant day somewhere."

So, while we are having this discussion, somewhere two lovers are smiling and kissing.

503 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:47:26pm

re: #496 bottehond

The Ha-Shoah is the very reason this "discussion" exists in the first place.

It isn't a "card" to be played in some game. It is a simple and utterly indisputable fact.

Are you denying that?

MFER,
R

504 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:47:32pm

re: #487 jeppo

re: #478 Sharmuta

re: #474 jeppo

Again- wiki states it is vlaams belang that is stating other european countries have done this. It's not true. Your "manifesto" is not in agreement with the facts. Dewinter himself does NOT deny this plank of the platform. He admitted it and obfuscated it. You would know this if you were honestly trying to understand the issue and had listened to the dewinter interview Charles had weeks ago.

Prove it Sharmuta. I'm just quoting the Wiki article that you used as your source on this matter. You claim to have a source that contradicts this. Please don't keep this important information to yourself.

Link?

Direct translation of the relevant page from the current VB program on the VB site ITSELF (Dutch original below my translation):

"g. Amnesty

[Link: www.vlaamsbelang.be...]

Many Flemish Nationalists were exposed to terror and persecution in the aftermath of WW II. The Belgian State then attempted to destroy Flemish nationalism and pronounced severe sentences on Flemish nationalists. The "repression" muzzled countless avowed Flemings. Belgium pushed many well-meaning and sincere Flemings to the margins of society. Amnesty remains a program point of the BV. It can finally draw a line under the war and the repression. All other European countries granted amnesty. Amnesty does not imply a historical judgment, for this is the task of historians.

The VB remains reverent for the human suffering of everybody, regardless of which side they have been on during the war years. The VB is opposed to all manners of initiatives that abuse the suffering of the repression in order to settle present-day political scores. The Amnesty Debate of March 13, 2002 in the Flemish Parliament drover for a moral condemnation of our party for (f)acts [[same word in Dutch] in which our party took no part, and never wants or wanted to take part. The VB warrants amnesty in tomorrow's Flemish state.


g. Amnestie.

Heel wat Vlaams-nationalisten stonden bloot aan terreur en vervolging in de nadagen van de Tweede Wereldoorlog. De Belgische staat trachtte toen het Vlaams-nationalisme te vernietigen en sprak zware straffen uit voor nationalisten. De repressie maakte ontelbare overtuigde Vlamingen monddood. België duwde vele goedmenende en oprechte Vlamingen naar de zelfkant van de samenleving. Amnestie blijft een programmapunt van het Vlaams Belang. Het kan eindelijk een punt zetten achter oorlog en repressie. Alle andere Europese landen verleenden amnestie. Amnestie houdt geen historisch oordeel in. Dat is immers de taak van historici.

Het Vlaams Belang blijft eerbied hebben voor het menselijke lijden van elkeen, aan welke kant hij of zij tijdens de oorlogsjaren ook heeft gestaan. Het Vlaams Belang is gekant tegen allerhande politieke initiatieven die het repressieleed misbruiken om huidige politieke rekeningen te vereffenen. Het amnestiedebat op 13 maart 2002 in het Vlaams Parlement stuurde aan op een morele veroordeling van onze partij voor feiten waaraan onze politieke formatie geen deel had en nooit of nimmer wenste te hebben. Het Vlaams Belang staat garant voor amnestie in de Vlaamse staat van morgen.

505 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:48:47pm
506 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:51:03pm

Bottehond - it's long established traditional if you make a claim back it up. If you don't like we, that's just so sad lad.

507 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:51:46pm

re: #505 jeppo

The Flemings aren't really Celts, they're actually--shudder--Germanic.

WTF?

508 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:52:39pm

re: #500 Sharmuta

You are on the brink of a hysterical nervous breakdown. calling someone a liar. Is that your last resort? I come as a friend. You treat me like an ennemie. Now you call me a liar? You have an ego issue. And you are mixing your ego- issue into this matter. I call that immoral. You kick the shit out of everyone that dares confront you. But, oh dear, if anyone dares challenging what you say. Are you, by any chance, diagnosed "borderliner"?

That makes it even. I am a liar, you are a borderliner. This is supposed to be a site that promotes and loves Free Speech. You should learn to take other people seriously. Your loyalty to Charles is a good thing, but you mess things up beyond repair given the chance. Back off, little sister. This dispute is way out of your league.

* expects sharmuta dude to to go completely bunkers now *

509 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:53:03pm

re: #497 jeppo

Well hey, I'm here to help. First, download this file to your desktop. Next, click your football and select "manage my account" and log in. The first thing you'll see is "icon". Browse your desktop for the VB logo file and hit upload, Be sure and save changes. That's it, it's really easy.

/be one of the proud, the few . . .

510 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:53:03pm
511 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:53:34pm

re: #507 Sharmuta

re: #505 jeppo


The Flemings aren't really Celts, they're actually--shudder--Germanic.

WTF?


Let's be distinct, as some old acquaintances from Germany said "The Dutch are Low-Germans".

512 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:54:23pm

re: #503 Render

Render, don't lecture me, if you please. My sons are jewish. I have clear interst in this debate. Their future. I thoroughly dislike the prostitution of the suffering their grandparents had to go thrue.

513 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:55:20pm

re: #509 Killian Bundy

Jeppo, use this file instead.

/the other one slightly exceeds the 16K speed limit

514 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:57:14pm

GAZE

515 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:58:03pm

ere: #511 Thanos

You are becoming a caricature. Never worry: as long as Charles lets me, I will stand up against your infamous allegations. I can be perfectly rational on this issue, but will never back off when confronted with low-down injustice. Debate, Thanos, is what makes man great.

516 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:58:24pm

re: #505 jeppo

re: #483 ryannon

re: #465 jeppo


The Flemings aren't really Celts, they're actually--shudder--Germanic. But then again so are the English-speaking peoples, at least in a linguistic sense.

Well, English is a mixture of Germanic and Old French injected at the time of the Norman conquest, buried beneath layers of additional infusions of Latin and I don't know what. It's basically a mongrel, a beautiful and most versatile mongrel.

BTW, are we to take your silence on the issue of Dewinter's "foolish" utterances about "white Europe", lesbians and blacks as your silent approval of these?

517 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 3:59:41pm

re: #505 jeppo

To my knowledge, everybody was more or less Celt before the Germans were Germans, the French, French and so on...

It was an incredible civilization that stretched from one end of Europe to the other...

[Link: www.watson.org...]

But that's neither here nor there. The question remains: what are these guys doing mucking around with what you interpret as Celtic crosses?

Are they ashamed of their Germanic heritage?

What exactly do these crosses have to do with the Flemish?

518 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:00:11pm

re: #515 bottehond

ere: #511 Thanos

You are becoming a caricature. Never worry: as long as Charles lets me, I will stand up against your infamous allegations. I can be perfectly rational on this issue, but will never back off when confronted with low-down injustice. Debate, Thanos, is what makes man great.


So what is your point, your question your topic? Is there a purpose to this discussion or you just here flacking words for nothing?

519 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:00:54pm

re: #514 Sharmuta

GAZING back

520 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:01:19pm
521 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:03:46pm

re: #512 bottehond

Then why would you side with a party led by and filled with known and self-admitted Holocaust deniers?

Holocaust deniers who have an amnesty for those who actually committed the Holocaust as the seventh plank of their "political" party.

Whom is prostituting whom here?

To save your sons from the Islamo-fascists, you would hand them over to the neo-nazi's?

===

Do you deny the Holocaust? This is a simple "yes" or "no" question.

SAY HELLO TO
MY LITTLE FRIEND,
R

522 oslogin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:05:06pm

re: #510 jeppo

A quick and dirty translation:

"A considerable number of Flemish nationalists were victims of terror and persecution in the time after WWII. The Belgian state attempted to destroy Flemish nationalism in this matter, and gave heavy punishments to nationalists. The repression silences countless convinced Flemings. Belgium pushed many well-meaning and upright Flemings to the edges of society. Amnesty remains a programme point of the Vlaams Belang. This can finally put an end to war and repression. All other European countries have given amnesty. Amnesty does not mean a historical judgment. That is always the task of historians".

523 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:05:26pm
524 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:07:20pm

re: #451 Sharmuta

I didn't see anything about anti-jihad statements...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Separation of Church and State- not very islamic.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

That's pretty anti-jihadi, too.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

That might be the most un-islamic part of all! How hara'am!

konservo- I don't think he read it. What a surprise!

So, let us consider the "political group" that Konservo and Sharmuta have approved of.

The group that they agree 'passes muster' when it comes to the acceptability test of a political anti-jihad group.

USA--the political group that she implies she would "share her foxhole" with.

Let's take a look at what the USA comprises, shall we?

The American Nazi Party...
[Link: www.americannaziparty.com...]

WHAT IN HADES?!?

You, Sharmuta...and you Konservo...!

HOW DARE YOU!

How dare you align yourself with the USA (your choice and your own words, not mine) when they have Nazi's in their midst!

What the hades is wrong with you people, huh?

(remember, I told you not to use USA as a political party, but you insisted).

I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man/woman.

Anyone else?

~Norsk Troll

525 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:09:27pm

re: #522 oslogin

re: #510 jeppo

A quick and dirty translation:

"A considerable number of Flemish nationalists were victims of terror and persecution in the time after WWII. The Belgian state attempted to destroy Flemish nationalism in this matter, and gave heavy punishments to nationalists. The repression silences countless convinced Flemings. Belgium pushed many well-meaning and upright Flemings to the edges of society. Amnesty remains a programme point of the Vlaams Belang. This can finally put an end to war and repression. All other European countries have given amnesty. Amnesty does not mean a historical judgment. That is always the task of historians".

In other words, as I said above they are still upset that grandma's head got shaved, and that some nazi families have to live in Argentina ( They had a newsletter for them as late as 2006, not sure if that's closed for certes yet or not, still researching.) They are upset because they want to put up a statue for Staff LeClerq and Irma LaPlasse, they are upset while some people's grandmas got burnt in ovens, while some never had children, while some still walk about with tattoos.

526 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:12:37pm
527 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:12:59pm

re: #518 Thanos

I made that clear. I want peace pipes. This thing has gotten completely out of hand. A truce for a month seems good advise. I expect all participants in this controversy to get together and talk rationally. One thing can be learned: posting and columns can do more harm than good. I say: stop it right here and now. Solve these issues. The only ones gaining right now are the islamo- fascists. There are no herds of Europeans (whoever they might be) using islam to raise a white power kingdom. That notion is both insulting and utterly nonsensical. Charles has raised questions, they have been answered. Apparently not sufficiently. I don't think they will be solved by this virtual warfare. On the contrary. Considering the inters that is at stake, I call upon the main contributors to this controversy to meet face to face. One million lizard and euro- bloggers will not be capable of solving this matter. The only ones who can are the ones who started this. Including the messenger to Charles about the first controversy.

528 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:14:37pm

re: #524 EtNorskTroll

You linked to a group, (one of Lew Rockwell's), that we already know supports Vlaams Belang. A group that was represented at the Robert A. Taft Club Virgina conference, where Filip DeWinter and Frank VanHecke gave speeches written by Paul Belien to an audience of 80 or so that included Jared Taylor, CofCC, and VDare supporters.

You've hoisted your own petard.

===

As I've said previously, it would appear as though we know Euro-politics far better than the VB supporters know US politics.

To quote a very wise blogger...

MORONS,
R

529 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:15:23pm

You guys are endlessly splitting hairs - or trying to sodomise a fly, as the French say - when the bottom line is that each of us is perfectly aware of who we want to get into bed with.

Of course we've all been desperate or horny enough to fall into the sack with the first person willing to do the same, but oh, the regrets, dismay and often disgust when the morning comes.

I've no doubt that lots of the Flemish VBers are charming and personable people, but the real question is: would I want my daughter to marry one?

Not to mention, would I even want to get into bed with them?

Those morning after moments of truth can be murder...

530 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:16:10pm

re: #527 bottehond
That isn't going to happen, no truces with evil. It doesn't get Israel very far when they make truces does it?

531 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:17:00pm

re: #527 bottehond

re: #518 Thanos

I made that clear. I want peace pipes. This thing has gotten completely out of hand. A truce for a month seems good advise. I expect all participants in this controversy to get together and talk rationally.

No. The VB apologists need LGF. LGF does not need the VB apologists. You're out. You don't see LGF asking for GoV to reconsider their position, do you? He just states facts, since they have been established by now. It is the apologists who plea for "truce", compromises. I say: f* compromises.

532 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:17:04pm

The American Constitution is no friend to jihadis or nazis.

It may defend the rights of both to say what they'd like, but in no way does the Constitution embody the ideals of either. Nice try though.

533 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:18:18pm

re: #521 Render

Atre you mad? Me denying the holocaust. Get rational, or you'll topple over the edge of madness. I told you my sons are jewish and their entire family was put into concentrationcamps. My exwife is in psycho- therpay because she is a second generation warcrime- victim. I side with no- one. What makes you think that? I am my own man 100 %. Are you? Why this distrust? It is extremely harmfull. Let the key- opponents solve this matter.

534 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:18:23pm
535 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:18:38pm

No truce. No retreat. No surrender. No peace.

NEVER
AGAIN,
R

536 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:22:33pm

re: #533 bottehond

Do you have a problem with a simple "yes" or "no" question?

YES
OR
NO?,
R

537 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:23:57pm

Thanos, guftafs, and Render-

Charles would let us know to stop exposing vb and wn on LGF if that was his desire. I will assume if he desired a "truce" today, this post would not be here. Your thoughts?

538 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:24:03pm

So Bottehond, will you take the Thanos reality challenge if you think VB's ok and the celtic cross is just a symbol of Flemish Nationalism? Will you wear a celtic cross tee-shirt to synagogue?

539 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:25:28pm

re: #537 Sharmuta

Thanos, guftafs, and Render-

Charles would let us know to stop exposing vb and wn on LGF if that was his desire. I will assume if he desired a "truce" today, this post would not be here. Your thoughts?

Honestly, I don't care what Charles says. I speak when I see evil, and I"d still be doing this regardless if it got me banned here.

540 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:29:09pm

re: #537 Sharmuta

Thanos, guftafs, and Render-

Charles would let us know to stop exposing vb and wn on LGF if that was his desire. I will assume if he desired a "truce" today, this post would not be here. Your thoughts?

Mmm, aaah, ummm, jeeez, sheeesh ...?

541 oslogin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:29:12pm

re: #427 guftafs

Prodi's speech is available in its entirety here:
[Link: www.delsyr.cec.eu.int...]

If you have Bat Ye'or's "Eurabia" somewhere nearby you can easily contrast what she quotes and what she does not quote, and her analysis, with the whole speech held by Prodi.

For instance she notes that Prodi says that he rules out «any one-sided, Eurocentric approach and [that Europe] calls for multilateralism and persuasion, not coercion or unilateralism». Bat Ye'ors comment is: «he fails to mention whether Arabocentrism would also be ruled out», she is thus making a less-than-subtle hint towards Arab dominance.

But in his speech, the Italian minister did the opposite of what she hints that he was doing. Rather than accepting "Arabocentrism", he underlined the importance of «the universal recognition of values and principles on which European integration in particular has been based – starting with human rights, the role of women in society, the media and civil society – throughout the Mediterranean».

In other words, rather than being an example of European submission to 'dhimmitude', Prodi's speech is an example of the attempt at spreading social-liberal (liberal as per the European use of the word) ideas and values outside of Europe. Whether Prodi's line is likely to succeed or not can of course be discussed, but the point remains.

542 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:29:48pm

re: #527 bottehond

There is no controversy, the matter is quite simple really.

We don't support the groups like VB.
The bj and fjordman are staunch VB supporters.
The GoV and CVF will uncritically repeat anything that the bj says.
When the bj/fj/GoV/ or CVF deliberately make a post that misrepresents the facts (as they did with the black rat post), they will be called out for being manipulative liars.

So, it's not really a controversy, since LGF is posting facts.

543 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:30:06pm

Nite y'all

544 oslogin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:30:14pm

re: #534 Thanos

Translation:
Another youth, another ideal.

545 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:32:13pm

re: #544 oslogin

re: #534 Thanos

Translation:
Another youth, another ideal.


I thought it was akin to that.

Innocuous sounding but fraught with meaning if you see what they are being taught.

546 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:33:20pm

re: #538 Thanos

You are attributing words I never spokre. I am not sure about VB. I never said I am. But VB is a marginal player in our mutual cause. That is what I am pointing out. By now, VB has dragged many good people with them in their downfall. Because of irrational (too emotional) debate.


re: #532 Sharmuta

Who's a nazi then? Maybe you are? I wonder about you. You are way too influential in this debate, since you deliver nothing bur more controversy. Is that what you are after? You are doing a hell of a job. But let me warn you: Israel and European islam- watchers know what this is all about. It is about islamo- fascism. Ethics may be your main issue but hey are not the main issue here. Survival is. You'll know what I mean when the time has come for what I predicted. By the way: you should be more worried about my prediction that islamist will attack you by your legal- system than about your ethical hysteria about supposed Eurofascism. I told you: we'll keep an extra eye on VB, but even that is not enough. And trust me: I will not be laughing when islamfascism will reveal its' ugly face and come to your hometown. Be sure of that. They will come. You choose not to listen. I trust many others will. Don't complain about my tone. You are a very bad hostess for LGF. You oppose to rational debate, you accuse and moan.


@ Render

Is this a modern "non-jew" declaration. It is getting scary. I don't deny the holocaust. In fact: I am very worried on that matter. Teachers in the Netherlands tend to not speak about the Shoa because their muslim- students object and get aggresive if the do.

547 oslogin  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:33:59pm

re: #525 Thanos

Pretty much, yeah. And you got a better translation below, btw :).

548 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:35:41pm

re: #539 Thanos

I understand and admire your position. My point was that the calls for a "cease fire", if you will, are not coming from any sort of authority on this blog, therefore, I see no need to stop.

549 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:37:28pm

re: #534 Thanos

Here is the cross from the NjSV Antwerp site background, can someone translate the words?

"A different youth
A different ideal"

550 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:37:34pm

Beneath it all there are a couple people out there whom I care for, but their pride and passion has overcome their reason. There won't be compromise, tragic but real.

551 guftafs  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:37:40pm

re: #541 oslogin

Thanks. Will check, very interesting. Need sleep now.

552 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:38:11pm

Wow- some people give me too much credit. I just post here. Talk about hysterics.

553 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:38:14pm

re: #549 Former Belgian

Thanks, see above :)

554 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:41:17pm

re: #542 konservo

A simple matter, is it. I double dare you to come over and stay here as my guest for one week. I will show you how easy the matter is. Many seem to mistrust euro- counterjihadi's assessment. Quite easy, isn't it, from behind a desk. So: get your ass over here and judge after wards. This controversy has led to huge damage. Much more than necessary. That's what I say. Be obnoxious about it, I don't care. I came as a friend and some treat me as if I was as bad as an Islamo-fascist. If you stay at my place for one week, I will show you the damage done. The United States and Europe are the Free World. If we don't line up, our cause is lost.

555 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:43:18pm
556 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:43:47pm

Time for me to see what's happening other threads and attend to my blog, be back a bit later.

557 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:44:14pm
558 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:45:59pm

jeppo- you would. Unreal.

559 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:46:20pm

re: #557 jeppo

Thanks Killian!

/hey, you may as well look the part

560 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:47:12pm

re: #537 Sharmuta

If Charles were to do so, I would leave. I've said that before...

IN
CHARLES
I
TRUST,
R

561 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:49:09pm

re: #528 Render

re: #524 EtNorskTroll

You linked to a group, (one of Lew Rockwell's), that we already know supports Vlaams Belang. A group that was represented at the Robert A. Taft Club Virgina conference, where Filip DeWinter and Frank VanHecke gave speeches written by Paul Belien to an audience of 80 or so that included Jared Taylor, CofCC, and VDare supporters.

You've hoisted your own petard.

===

As I've said previously, it would appear as though we know Euro-politics far better than the VB supporters know US politics.

To quote a very wise blogger...

MORONS,
R

Exactly, Render.

Sharmuta and Konservo gave their approval to the "USA" as a 'political party' which they consider to be anti-jihad.

And the USA is made up of people.

And some of those people are open Nazi's.

And some of those people are connected to VB.

But the USA is still A-OK with them.

QED.

Thanks for pointing that out...and I'm glad it came from you: now, nobody can say a thing.

...at least not in fairness.

~Norsk Troll

562 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:50:43pm

Personally, I find the VB lion's mullet kind of cool...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

563 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:51:30pm
564 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:55:59pm

re: #552 Sharmuta

You are of no relevance, except you opposing and perhaps even sabotaging dialog. Maybe Charles can trade you in for a guard-dog that serves mutual interest a little better. Negative energy is pouring from your posts. Since you get broad breasted about the evil of fascism it strikes me as odd you are in no way able or willing to start rational dialog.

BTW: you said yourself you were the tough nut (hehehehe) to crack here. On top of that you state: I see no need to stop. Nuff said.

#550 Thanos 12/07/07 4:37:34 pm

Apparently many participants in this controversy feel insulted and feel not taken seriously and attacked on their integrity. So it is pride that will prevent them to overcome this necessary debate?

565 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:56:43pm

re: #554 bottehond

You've made that offer before, to me and to others. It's nothing personal against you, but don't be surprised if no one takes you up on that.

I'd be cautious about meeting folks in the US who I've only known for a few months via on-line forums, and I'll not be leaving the country to stay with an on-line acquaintance who I've only conversed with on 1 or 2 occasions.

566 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:57:25pm

re: #541 oslogin

...
But in his speech, the Italian minister did the opposite of what she hints that he was doing. Rather than accepting "Arabocentrism", he underlined the importance of «the universal recognition of values and principles on which European integration in particular has been based – starting with human rights, the role of women in society, the media and civil society – throughout the Mediterranean

In other words, rather than being an example of European submission to 'dhimmitude', Prodi's speech is an example of the attempt at spreading social-liberal (liberal as per the European use of the word) ideas and values outside of Europe. Whether Prodi's line is likely to succeed or not can of course be discussed, but the point remains.

BS. This just reflects the typical arrogant European post-colonial attitude.

After WWII Europe tried to counter the US and the USSR with a "third way". Europe would be at the head of a power block of "third world" and "non-aligned" states, in particular in North Africa and the Arab world. Prodi is from that tradition.

The problem is that the "third world" has their own agenda. Prodi and his ilk are definitely sucking up to Arab nationalists. And the ideas and values he's trying to spread are European socialism, not liberalism in the sense of democracy and capitalism.

567 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 4:58:41pm
568 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:00:02pm

re: #565 konservo

re: #554 bottehond

You've made that offer before, to me and to others. It's nothing personal against you, but don't be surprised if no one takes you up on that.

I'd be cautious about meeting folks in the US who I've only known for a few months via on-line forums, and I'll not be leaving the country to stay with an on-line acquaintance who I've only conversed with on 1 or 2 occasions.


Hey, maybe I'll go!

Where the hell are you, bottehond?

Paris is such a drag this time of the year...

569 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:00:09pm

re: #560 Render

So do I. Now what? I am off to bed. It's 2 oçlock in the morning here. Ciao all. Let's think about solutions. More challenging than cheap ad hominems.

570 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:01:27pm

re: #565 konservo

Shoot me an email and get to know me. This issue is important enough, wouldn't you say?

* out *

571 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:01:50pm

re: #560 Render

Again- my point is that is that those calling for a "truce" or "cease fire" have no authority over me here. The one that does, imo, has made himself clear enough to me. We battle on for the Truth.

572 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:02:31pm

re: #569 bottehond

Hypocrite.

573 bottehond  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:03:28pm

re: #568 ryannon

I was just leaving. Haha. Okay: I live in the Netherlands. Check google- earth: the islands in the southwest.

* out (again) *

574 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:04:23pm
575 Salamantis  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:05:00pm

I find the tu quoque with the American Nazi Party to be disingenuous at best, and dishonest at worst. The American Way is to allow any group that wishes to, to form a political party; we even have an American Communist Party. However, in a nation of 300+ million, either has a few thousand members nationwide at best. I know of no one who has run as a member of either who has been elected to state or national office while publicizing the fact.

The major political parties in the US, the Republicans and the Democrats, both abhor racist and fascist political parties, and no matter which of these two parties is in power in the US, it will not assist the ideological heirs of those who cost us so much blood and treasure to defeat in the past. Nor will the vast majority of American citizens; in fact, they will find it incomprehensible that some citizens of a Europe that we so recently delivered from bondage, at so dear a price, from such utter evil, would even consider re-embracing it now. You may not value the support of the American people, but American antijihadists do, and so, as a practical matter, we will not risk that support by tainting associations with such sullied political parties as the VB.

Of course, as a moral matter, we find their tactics and biases far too repugnant to stomach. Here, the practical and the moral agree: No alliance with racists and facists - ever!

576 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:07:27pm

re: #567 jeppo

The only thing that's tenuous about these people's use of the "Celtic" Cross is any real or imagined relationship with anything vaguely Celtic.

For reasons which I can't quite fathom, it has become a symbol of neo-fascism and white supremacy.

Could it be because of it's rather obvious similarity to the cross-hairs of a gunsight?

Go figure.

577 danger close  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:07:46pm

re: #554 bottehond

The United States and Europe are the Free World. If we don't line up, our cause is lost.

As long as those in the forefront of your fight are affiliated in any way with racism, bigotry or neo-nazism, Europe will never receive the best that the United States can offer.

You'd better have a plan B.

578 ryannon  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:10:06pm

re: #573 bottehond

Sounds great!
Do you prefer cognac or a good champagne?

579 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:14:14pm

re: #567 jeppo

re: #517 ryannon

re: #505 jeppo

To my knowledge, everybody was more or less Celt before the Germans were Germans, the French, French and so on...

It was an incredible civilization that stretched from one end of Europe to the other...

[Link: www.watson.org...]

But that's neither here nor there. The question remains: what are these guys doing mucking around with what you interpret as Celtic crosses?

Are they ashamed of their Germanic heritage?

What exactly do these crosses have to do with the Flemish?

There was a good article at Gates of Vienna a couple days ago about the Flemish nationalist movement and it's usage of Celtic Crosses dating back to WWI. The Northern Italian separatists also hearken back to a Celtic past, though their Celtic roots are probably just as tenuous as the Flemings.

yes, I know about Flemish-Irish painter "Joe English" and his design for the WW I Flemish gravestones.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: www.wo1.be...]

This is all besides the point. As I wrote here once before, at one point in history the five-pointed star was a Jewish symbol (the Seal of Solomon), while nowadays it's a symbol of Muslims as well as Satanists. `I do not know ANY Jewish group nowadays that would even THINK of using the five-pointed star as a symbol, even though it has a very clear Jewish symbolic meaning (the five books of the Torah --- for Muslims, five are the "Five pillars of Islam" [RoPmA]).

Conversely, the six-pointed star made up of two opposite triangles may have had all sorts of meanings in the past, but is now pretty much universally established as "the" Jewish symbol. (Six can be six days of work, the six "days" of ma`ase bereishit [the Act of Creation], or the six "orders" of the Oral Law.)

Moral of the story: symbols change in meaning, just like words do. "Ellendeling" meant "foreigner" in medieval Dutch, "miscreant" or "good-for-nothing" in modern Dutch. Would you still address a Dutch immigrant to the USA with "Welkom, ellendeling"?

580 EE  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:15:42pm

re: #389 Peter Verkooijen

re: #368 EtNorskTroll
It's not a question of "purity". To me this is about defense of liberal* democracy, freedom of speech, rule of law, national sovereignty, etc.

European fascists are fundamentally on the other side, with the islamists and the socialists. The enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend.

These totalitarian ideologies have always battled eachother, but they can also be allies when it suits them, as the left-islamist convergence shows. Remember that Jean Marie Le Pen and Jorg Haider visited Saddam Hussein in show of support before the war. Members of German neonazi party NDP protested against the war with Kein Blut Fur Ol flags.

Again, don't ever mistake European fascists for slightly misguided conservatives. They have nothing in common with what is branded the political right in the US.

* I mean classic liberalism, the original meaning of the word, not the American euphemism for socialism.

Good post.
It's the pretense that people with just plain common sense are demanding "purity" from all allies, is setting up a straw man.
Nobody on this side of the argument is demanding "purity"; it's just a straw man.

The radical right racists are opposed to liberal democracy (that's why they had a drawing of a rat smashing the Statue of Liberty), just as the radical left is opposed to liberal democracy, and the radical Islamists are opposed to liberal democracy.

581 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:18:11pm

[Link: sioe.wordpress.com...]

[Link: sioe.wordpress.com...]

This is what happens when neo-nazi's, even cleaned-up suit&tie non-skinhead nazi's get involved in the Counter-Jihad.

===

EnT: Do you think that group represents Americans? They are marginalized for good reason. If you linked to them to prove that VB isn't neo-nazi, you failed. Rockwell's branch of the neo-nazi's, like David Duke/Don Blacks branch, supports VB.

That same group was represented at the VB conference in Virgina.

To be allied with Vlaams Belang in Belgium is the same as being allied with David Duke/Don Black in the United States. At which point LGF might just as well be supporting Ron Paul.

===

Maybe Norman Finkelstein can get his tenure now that staunch Jewish activists like Atlas Shrugs and CVF are supporting his friends and allies, allies such as Stormfront and David Duke.

BLACK
SABBATH,
R

582 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:19:26pm

Botthond:

Apparently many participants in this controversy feel insulted and feel not taken seriously and attacked on their integrity. So it is pride that will prevent them to overcome this necessary debate?

Then the thin skinned need to get over their hurt pride and come have the discussion rather than send proxy trolls. That is if the debate is truly as important as you say it is, and their stance is other than on quicksand -- if so then they might feel hesitant.
Debate's only necessary as long as untruths persist, where I see them I will point them out. If you've been here any length of time you've seen me correct many here, including Charles, and even myself when proven wrong by fact.

583 Peter Verkooijen  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:21:02pm

re: #554 bottehond

re: #542 konservo
... The United States and Europe are the Free World. If we don't line up, our cause is lost.

Europe is no longer part of the Free World. The EU is dismantling the democratic nationstate system and replacing it with supranational bureaucracy aimed at defending and spreading the "European model" of elite socialism. The European fascists and islamists have parallel agendas.

America should look to India and Japan for allies.

584 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:51:46pm

re: #583 Peter Verkooijen

re: #554 bottehond


re: #542 konservo
... The United States and Europe are the Free World. If we don't line up, our cause is lost.

Europe is no longer part of the Free World. The EU is dismantling the democratic nationstate system and replacing it with supranational bureaucracy aimed at defending and spreading the "European model" of elite socialism. The European fascists and islamists have parallel agendas.
America should look to India and Japan for allies.

There are some people on this board who believe inserting the EU into this conversation is an untoward distraction. konservo busted my chops for quite a few hours about it.

585 wanumba  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 5:56:34pm

re: #253 EE

The European White Racists (who use the Odin's Cross as a White Racist symbol to replace the Swastika), would bring another European Holocaust upon a new set of victims, starting with all those who are black (their religion is immaterial to the racists -- and this would include blacks who are Christians as well as blacks who are not). They would target also all those who are not as white as they are, including a lot of bronze-skinned people from the Mediterranean region. Targeted also, of course, would be those who are not of their religion.

They write of a Nieuwe Ordenung, a New Order. The New Order would be similar to the old Nazi order. The main difference is that the the people chewed up and killed by the New Order massacre machine would start off with blacks and other non-whites, of all religions, and after the racist slaughter they would get to the religious slaughter.

That's worth repeating for those who argue the USA must stand with Eurofascists. There are always other options; who says the fascists are the only way? It's a lie.
Reality check : Jessie Owens the American versus Adolph Hitler the NAZI. Hitler was determined to use the Olympics to showcase his new and improved master race. Humble and sturdy and greased lightening Jesse Owens ruined the whole party. America is not about "race" which is a dubious concept anyway. It is about "belief," about challenge and hope and promise and future - for ANYONE.
Yeh, there'll always be a few people the fascist racists can seduce by flattery, but Americans are NOT Europeans - even the American descendents of Europeans are not - there is an American way of thinking that stands far apart from European habits.

586 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 6:01:53pm
re: #575 Salamantis

The major political parties in the US, the Republicans and the Democrats, both abhor racist and fascist political parties, and no matter which of these two parties is in power in the US, it will not assist the ideological heirs of those who cost us so much blood and treasure to defeat in the past.

Exactly right. If someone like Dewinter, and his fellow VBers, somehow managed to fall through the cracks in American politics, as soon as the "Vlaams Blok believes in a White Europe!" video was brought to the attention of the public, that would be it, the end of his political career.

For example, here in Virginia our governor Tim Kaine (D) made the bone-headed decision to appoint MAS leader Esam Omeish to a commission on immigration. Republican delegates informed Kaine of Omeish's words and shortly thereafter, Omeish was gone. And while Omeish was complaining about 'intolerance,' the Republican delegates were investigating how Kaine could have made the decision in the first place.

Not only does this show how the United States feels about jihadists (in case EtNorskTroll is reading this), but it also shows how we feel about extremists in general.

587 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 6:02:11pm

re: #554 bottehond

The United States and Europe are the Free World. If we don't line up, our cause is lost.

Not Europe bottehond. Peter (#583) is right on this. The Europe fascist agenda is lining up with that of the Islamists with the assist of the EU. Even if you could GET American support, the anti-Americanism in Europe is so pathological, I don't think it would be accepted. Moreover, Europeans have already allowed the Islamists to use anti-Americanism as a weapon against us all.

588 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 6:14:19pm
re: #584 wahabicorridor

There are some people on this board who believe inserting the EU into this conversation is an untoward distraction. konservo busted my chops for quite a few hours about it.

That's right. Strictly speaking, this post is about fascism enthusiasts manipulating and altering evidence. Also, the removal of the WN symbol, the Statue of Liberty, etc., from the picture is representative of the VB apologists' m.o.

589 wahabicorridor  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 6:33:48pm

re: #588 konservo

Also, the removal of the WN symbol, the Statue of Liberty, etc., from the picture is representative of the VB apologists' m.o.

Ah! I'm glad you reminded me. I assume it was Baron who removed it - I think it's a stretch to imagine someone just handed him a cropped image that he never verified.

But wouldn't you think by now he would know it would be found out?

This is the part of this whole dynamic I really just don't get. It feels like I got sucked into Orwell's 1984 parallel universe.

590 Thanos  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 6:44:52pm

Here's another blogger from the Netherlands who is in agreement with Charles. (In Dutch of course)

Machine translation from the end of the article:

There is therefore rather what to the hand then only a photograph more of Odin cross. The Flemish importance is as wrong as but is possible, and rational moral people has to zoeken nothing at that party, or at organisations where that party has an importance. I want not even guess to the reasons why Botthond (just like fjord man and others) refuse discuss the vele arguments and evidence which Johnson run into. But he proves there to a nobody service me, except perhaps the Flemish importance. And that gives, however, to think.

The blogger appears associated with SIOE btw., and I think I"m getting to the point where I think I can stand behind them. It needs more investigation first however.

591 ornery elephant  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 6:58:05pm

re: #535 Render

No truce. No retreat. No surrender. No peace.

NEVER
AGAIN,
R

Are you talking about islamofascism?

592 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:02:00pm

re: #590 Thanos

I want not even guess to the reasons why Botthond (just like fjord man and others) refuse discuss the vele arguments and evidence which Johnson run into.

Interesting find. Thanks for sharing.

593 Former Belgian  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:07:43pm

re: #590 Thanos

Here's another blogger from the Netherlands who is in agreement with Charles. (In Dutch of course)

And who responds directly to an posting by our selfsame "botte hond" (literally: "blunt dog").

I'm rather amused that he needs to write "Charles is no neocon, and he has been quite critical of president Bush, especially not his policies towards the Arab oil states and Israel". As if "neoconservative" were a synonym of "kneejerk agreement with Bush 43". (Ask Daniel Pipes, or Norman Podhoretz, if they always agree with Dubya on everything. The response won't be pretty.)

In fact, the original meaning "a liberal who got mugged by reality" does fit Charles very much (as it does yours truly). Personally I call myself a "neo-centrist" since, having been fooled once by liberal leftism, I won't ever trust another rigid ideology again.

594 jeppo[deleted]  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:10:03pm
595 Kirly  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:11:24pm

re: #591 ornery elephant

re: #535 Render


No truce. No retreat. No surrender. No peace.

NEVER
AGAIN,
R


Are you talking about islamofascism?

OE,

I don't speak for Render but i'm pretty sure that is in response to the butthound (aka botthond) a couple posts above (533 i think).

And, also not speaking for Fender but rather of Render, I'd say that the statement is equally applicable to islamofascists and nazis and specifically #535 looks to me like it was regarding nazis.

But, then again, Render can speak for himself when he gets back.

kirls

596 Kirly  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:14:27pm

re: #595 Kirly

And, also not speaking for FRender but rather of Render, I'd say that the statement is equally applicable to islamofascists and nazis and specifically #535 looks to me like it was regarding nazis.

sorry Rendie! :-)

kirls

597 konservo  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:18:08pm

re: #589 wahabicorridor

I don't know for sure, but I think it might have been 'ProFlandaria' (or whatever his/her name is) who cropped the picture.

598 ornery elephant  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:18:11pm

re: #595 Kirly

Thanks kirls!

= )

599 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:34:30pm

re: #591 ornery elephant

Both. I'm an equal opportunity avenger.

THE
FEELING
IS
MUTUAL,
R

600 Killian Bundy  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 7:49:05pm

re: #599 Render

Hmm . . .

/surprised you don't have this as your avatar, it's less than 15K tall

601 Render  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 8:25:48pm

re: #600 Killian Bundy

lol

I could have, it's saved in one of my pic directories already.

GOOD
TOOL,
R

602 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 8:59:27pm

Do I think every member of vlaams belang is a fascist? I've already posted before that I don't. But for people like jeppo and Johnny Canuck- who have stated they'd support actual fascists...I asked both these men if I could call them "fascist apologists"- politely, I might add. BTW- jeppo said I could! As for botthond- I told him what others were calling him. He can go to lgfwatch and defend himself. I wouldn't be caught dead posting at that sicko-blog and certainly not to defend the likes of botthond. But- if little me has upset the feelings of actual wittle cwpto-fascists and their apowogists everywhere simply by calling them what they are, well- I'm not f***ing sorry, so toughen up, babies. As for me shutting up? Good luck with that, because I'll shut up the day I die.

603 Highrise  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 9:33:54pm

re: #392 Sharmuta

Amen!

604 Highrise  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 10:48:03pm

re: #236 konservo

re: #213 Sharmuta

I don't know. '1389' sent me an email recently (basically just to talk shit about LGF) and had a female name.

I guess '1389' didn't notice that I was suspicious of 'her' comments nearly a month before 'she' was banned.

I tell ya, if anyone had any doubt at what a nutcase 1389 is all they have to do is read his tripe at gcp and gov and atlas'...yeah 1389, I said HE :P .

605 gman  Fri, Dec 7, 2007 11:27:31pm

re: #410 EtNorskTroll

re: #405 Peter Verkooijen

re: #391 EtNorskTroll
The Republican Party!

Your challenge is just dumb. You clearly don't understand the first things about politics and history.

Talking about underlying ideologies you can make clear judgements between who's on your side and who isn't, even if you can disagree with some points, actions, at some times.

No, you don't really mean the Repulican Party, do you Peter:

Please take a look at who the "Republican Party" is running (or allowing to run) for POTUS:

BTW, Haaretz is hardly an anti-Mormon paper and they know a thing or two about closet Nazis:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

How about Ron Paul? Care to hear a little about what the freaks at STORMFRONT think about him?

[Link: www.stormfront.org...]

(Kindly note the "Odin's Cross" in the supporter's Avatar)

Here's more goodies about ol' Paul:
[Link: www.google.com...]


*Buuurp!*

More, please...

~Norsk Troll

Ahhh! Norsk Troll! You don't get off the hook so easy on your quick dismissal of Peter's post. Is Ron Paul one of the leading members of the Republican Party as Filip Dewinter is of VB? Do you think the press in America will forget about Ron Paul and his neo- nazi supporters? Do you think it is reasonable for people to decide for themselves where to draw a line in the sand when it concerns their affiliations?

I have heard the "what if you are in a pit and the only person that can help you out" and "purity" arguments too many times, but let's reexamine them.

VB is not the only tool Belgium has to get out of the Islamo-fascist pit. They are plenty of educated people in Belgium waiting for someone to lead them down the right path. It's amazing what can happen when you raise your level of expectations and demand change.

Using logic, invert the "purity" argument. At what degree of impurity would you say the whole product is tainted? Now, at what degree of impurity would you say VB could be considered tainted?

I know I'm writing this when you are away, but I hope you will respond tomorrow.

606 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 1:18:16am

re: #593 Former Belgian

Well, well... so why not publish my reply to that article by my learned jewish colleague Daniel Belinfante at HetVrijeVolk.com? Hmm. That would be unconveniant, now, would it not? I wonder why, former Belgian. I wonder why. Is this your idea of fair and balanced? I call that manipulation of facts, dude.

607 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 1:32:08am

re: #563 jeppo

re: #516 guftafs

re: #505 jeppo


re: #483 ryannon


re: #465 jeppo


Dewinter said that while he didn't want his daughter to be a lesbian or marry a Muslim or black man, that he would accept her decision whatever it may be. I guess he would prefer to have white, non-Muslim grandchildren. Sorry, I don't see a problem with that. When I called him a fool I was being sarcastic. Sorry I assumed you were an American, but you are definitely PC.

Sorry I didn't realize I was talking to a parrot. Sorry my bad. Sorry, sorry, sorry ...
/wants a cracker too

608 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 1:43:42am

re: #587 wahabicorridor

The EU is called EUSSR by euro-sceptics. Did you ever read what Vladimir Bukovski said about the EU?

[Link: www.brusselsjournal.com...]

As you might know, Bat Ye Or has written a great book about the oil for muslimimmigration-program. Oriana has written about that too. Funny thing is: islam-appeasers over here mock and ridicule both great ladies. Their message is probably very inconvenient for some of them. And here is something you'd like to know. One of the attendants at the Brussels Islam conference that started this controversy is Arabist Hans Jansen. Many said Bat Ye ' Or made the entire oil- for immigration stuff up. But Hans Jansen was also present at the euro- arab meetings and saw the documents being signed. And the EU is on the doorstep of joining with north africa and turkey (all of them islamic countries). Just some notes and the following link, hope this makes the picture and the position of islamization- watchers over here a little clearer.

[Link: sioe.wordpress.com...]

609 oslogin  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:24:29am

re: #566 Peter Verkooijen

Er, yeah, because Europe is of course neither democratic nor capitalist? Of course the "third world" have their own agendas (a long, long list of different agendas) - but that does not change the facts here: Prodi did the exact opposite of what Bat Ye'or tries to make him out as doing.

Øyvind

610 The Albatross  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 3:04:15am

Good morning... likely this thread is dead. But on waking I had a random thought I wanted to post here.

Charles, Gates of Vienna and Atlas Shrugs did something else... and maybe in my focus on the subject and in formulating my own opinion I completely overlooked it.

By refusal to let this VB stuff drop, something constructive may be happening here and at Gates of Vienna after all... they are forcing dialog thereby demonstrating in real time how individuals with different perspectives handle oppositional viewpoints.

No one is threatening to kill anybody, no one is calling to revert to a fundamentalist position, no acts of violence of any kind have occurred with regard to this issue. It demonstrates civil discourse in a very public way.

That is a good thing.

By forcing discourse, we are moving into a better understanding as a group on the European perspective and political climate that will drive counter Jihad in the present and the future.

Just a thought... but it would put a new spin on the VB topic that is constructive rather than a blog rift.

611 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 3:23:13am

re: #609 oslogin

re: #566 Peter Verkooijen

Er, yeah, because Europe is of course neither democratic nor capitalist? Of course the "third world" have their own agendas (a long, long list of different agendas) - but that does not change the facts here: Prodi did the exact opposite of what Bat Ye'or tries to make him out as doing.

%uFFFDyvind

The EU is not a democratic institution. Two people's (the French and the Dutch?) voted against the EU constitution. Previous to these referendums it was said that only the EU constitution would only be ratified unanimously. So the eurocrats tinker with it a little and comes up with the Lisbon Treaty, which as I understand it is in essence the EU constitution in content with some cosmetic alterations.

As for the Eurabia thesis, I'm no longer sure it is a conscious effort. It sounds a little too much like a conspiracy theory and I'm very skeptical of all such things. I read what Prodi said but I think it could be interpreted either way. You'd need more to conclude that Bat Ye'or is wrong. But I'm not as certain as before.

612 BabbaZee  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:19:11am

re: #594 jeppo


you have a vlaams belang avatar?

ROTFF Jeppo!

613 BabbaZee  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:21:22am

re: #594 jeppo

Charge, followed by rebuttal, followed by counter-rebuttal, followed by counter-counter-rebuttal, followed by...



followed by JEPPO playing Smoke on the water for the multitoodtootbazillionth time!

614 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:43:16am

re: #563 jeppo

re: #516 guftafs

re: #505 jeppo


re: #483 ryannon


re: #465 jeppo



Dewinter said that while he didn't want his daughter to be a lesbian or marry a Muslim or black man, that he would accept her decision whatever it may be. I guess he would prefer to have white, non-Muslim grandchildren. Sorry, I don't see a problem with that. When I called him a fool I was being sarcastic. Sorry I assumed you were an American, but you are definitely PC.

Sarcastic? Why didn't you say so immediately? It took you about 1:10 to say you were sarcastic? My kid sister is more convincing dishonest. And drop the condescending "sorry"'s. You don't have the cognitive chops to outwit anyone here. You sound a little like Fjordman when he's about to utter some stupid opinion of his. Have you taken the same distance course in how to fake a rational debate? I'm sorry Beppo, keep trying. And remember that each time you put your fingertips to the keys you will reveal your status as "cognitively challenged" for all to see. That PC enough for ya?

615 Syrah  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 6:01:56am

bottehond,

For many posts now, you have been arguing here with people that have been telling you that Americans are both intellectually and emotionally allergic to Nazis. It is something that is sourced to the very essence of our political creed that “All men are created equal.” This is a universal truth about Americans on both the right and the left of the American political divide. Sharmuta's reference to LGFWatch's commentary that mentions you specifically is just one proof of this, and it is one that you should not dismiss.

I am not saying that ALL Americans will reject you for being allied with Nazis. In a nation of over 300 million people, you will find a tiny fraction of people who will support you (i.e. GoV et all). It would be a very silly mistake for you to overestimate their numbers and their relevance to America.

Strategically, making common cause with Nazi's limits your American allies to little more than the kook fringe. The overwhelming majority of Americans will on the other hand HATE you. That reaction will be visceral and implacable. It is important that you understand that Americans will be more than just indifferent towards you. The reaction that you will get from Americans as they become more aware of you will be one of cold hate from both the American Right and Left.

You can argue with us about the particulars but you can not change that fact. If you are perceived as being allied with Nazi's, America will be you r enemy, no matter how righteous, just or desperate you think your cause is.

I hope this makes the picture and the position of islamization- watchers over here in the states a little clearer.

616 Irish Rose  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 6:43:37am

You know, for years now I've been hearing the left complain about the racist tendancies of many on the right, including some of the posters here at LGF.

I admit that I am guilty of disregarding those complaints, wholesale, instead of looking harder at the evidence. Now that I've done so, I realize that much of that complaining from the left has been justified. I was blind before, but no more.

The ugly truth about the racist underbelly of the conservative anti-jihad movement is coming into the light, here... and I've decided that its' an evil that I am not willling to embrace. Not now, and not ever.

Charles is right.

I stand with him on this issue, and I stand with all conservatives who recognize the need to purge the the evils of racism and fascism, from the cause of anti-jihad.

I am white.
Here in America, my neighbors are not all white. They are red, yellow, black, white and yes... even brown.

I am an Irish-American, first generation... I have a strong European bloodline. I am hardly anti-European; I love Europe, and I want Europe to survive.

But I will not compromise my soul by embracing one evil to conquer another. I refuse to abandon my most basic moral principals, the principals that define my humanity, as a means to an end.

If it means that I have to support the rift in the anti-jihad movement, then so be it... this is where I draw the line. This is an important time of refinement for the Western anti-jihad, a seperation of the metal from the dross if you will. I am choosing purification and principal, over contamination and compromise.

Those who stand on the side of fascism, for the sake of the anti-jihad, will be lost... and nothing can be done to prevent that. Ultimately, they will be consumed by the very same fascists that they now embrace. My heart breaks for the innocent Europeans who still have a moral compass and understand the principals of democracy, but lack the means to defend themselves .

As far as I am concerned, any further dialogue here is fruitless. Those who support organizations like VB will never change their minds, and will never be able to set their pride aside to embrace the truth. The time of separation has come.

It is time for all good people of principal to stand together... men, women, and young people who understand exactly what freedom is, and would not deny freedom and basic human rights to ANY race or religion under the guise of "cultural survival".

617 Irish Rose  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 6:45:50am

re: #615 Syrah

bottehond,

For many posts now, you have been arguing here with people that have been telling you that Americans are both intellectually and emotionally allergic to Nazis. It is something that is sourced to the very essence of our political creed that “All men are created equal.” This is a universal truth about Americans on both the right and the left of the American political divide. Sharmuta's reference to LGFWatch's commentary that mentions you specifically is just one proof of this, and it is one that you should not dismiss.

I am not saying that ALL Americans will reject you for being allied with Nazis. In a nation of over 300 million people, you will find a tiny fraction of people who will support you (i.e. GoV et all). It would be a very silly mistake for you to overestimate their numbers and their relevance to America.

Strategically, making common cause with Nazi's limits your American allies to little more than the kook fringe. The overwhelming majority of Americans will on the other hand HATE you. That reaction will be visceral and implacable. It is important that you understand that Americans will be more than just indifferent towards you. The reaction that you will get from Americans as they become more aware of you will be one of cold hate from both the American Right and Left.

You can argue with us about the particulars but you can not change that fact. If you are perceived as being allied with Nazi's, America will be you r enemy, no matter how righteous, just or desperate you think your cause is.

I hope this makes the picture and the position of islamization- watchers over here in the states a little clearer.

VERY well stated. I concur.

618 Irish Rose  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 7:07:13am

One final point: we are warring against a specific IDEOLOGY... not a race or a religion.

I hold my hand out to any man or woman of any race or religion - Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, and even Muslim - who stands with me to help preserve freedom and democracy for ALL human beings, not those who have the same skin color as I do or the same cultural practices.

I guess there are those who would call me "PC/multicultural" for thinking this and advocating global cooperation between free men and women, regardless or ethnicity, religion, or culture. They can pin me with labels all they like, as far as I am concerned... the ideology of jihad is my enemy, not my neighbor.

In the end, we are all human beings.
And free people, we will remain.

619 jeppo[deleted]  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 7:23:47am
620 jeppo[deleted]  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 7:27:57am
621 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 7:36:27am

One day late (sorry, my job's shifts are VERY strange) and one million dollars short.

I have no time to read ALL the comments of this thread but I hope that Charles will read this:

THE RAT

there is a special reason for the crypto fascists in Europe to use the rat: it is a form of proud answer to a VERY COMMON way of speaking by the ANTIfascists in Europe, who call "RATS" the fascists.
The italian most famous slogan at the antifascist rallies of the Seventies (the rallies to protest the BOMBINGS committed by the fascist terrorists) was:
(difficult to translate)
"fascist carrion go back to the sewers"
(fascisti carogne
tornate nelle fogne)
Now, even if that doesn't mention RATS it is because the image is so commonly used that it doesn't need to be openly mentioned (although I can remember at least one song by the popular folk singer Giorgio Gaber that says it openly).
After decades of being called RATS, the neo or crypto or whatever fascists decided to answer to fire with fire and they ADOPTED the image.
So now, if you are European and you know something about the last few decades of politics and you see a black rat used in the propaganda, you KNOW what they mean.
They mean: we are back FROM the sewers and we are proud.

Thank you for your attention.

I think I will report myself to Charles, to be sure he reads this.

622 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 7:37:22am

OK I reported myself, I hope Charles will see my post soon.

623 Irish Rose  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 7:46:16am

re: #622 Poitiers-Lepanto

I hope so, too.

As long as hes' on the way I think I'll take liberties that I don't usually take here at LGF and address Jeppo directly, with a comment that I've had on my mind for a very long time:

Go * yourself, asshole!

/There, I feel much better now. Delete away, Charles.

624 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 8:13:50am

re: #623 Irish Rose

re: #622 Poitiers-Lepanto

I hope so, too.

As long as hes' on the way I think I'll take liberties that I don't usually take here at LGF and address Jeppo directly, with a comment that I've had on my mind for a very long time:

Go * yourself, asshole!

/There, I feel much better now. Delete away, Charles.

LOL !
I think you're NOT going to be deleted, and there is not much else to say to the cryptofascists who still dare speak after the Holocaust.

The Pope himself (John Paul II) defined the Third Reich as "an emergence of the beast"...which is papal language for the same thing you say...

625 Roger  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 8:18:07am

re: #621 Poitiers-Lepanto

Hi Poitiers-Lepanto, having difficulty understanding the players in your post. Too many fascists:-) A rewrite may be helpful...

626 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 8:18:24am

re: #605 gman

re: #410 EtNorskTroll

re: #405 Peter Verkooijen

re: #391 EtNorskTroll
The Republican Party!

Your challenge is just dumb. You clearly don't understand the first things about politics and history.

Talking about underlying ideologies you can make clear judgements between who's on your side and who isn't, even if you can disagree with some points, actions, at some times.

No, you don't really mean the Repulican Party, do you Peter:

Please take a look at who the "Republican Party" is running (or allowing to run) for POTUS:

BTW, Haaretz is hardly an anti-Mormon paper and they know a thing or two about closet Nazis:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

How about Ron Paul? Care to hear a little about what the freaks at STORMFRONT think about him?

[Link: www.stormfront.org...]

(Kindly note the "Odin's Cross" in the supporter's Avatar)

Here's more goodies about ol' Paul:
[Link: www.google.com...]


*Buuurp!*

More, please...

~Norsk Troll

Ahhh! Norsk Troll! You don't get off the hook so easy on your quick dismissal of Peter's post. Is Ron Paul one of the leading members of the Republican Party as Filip Dewinter is of VB? Do you think the press in America will forget about Ron Paul and his neo- nazi supporters? Do you think it is reasonable for people to decide for themselves where to draw a line in the sand when it concerns their affiliations?

I have heard the "what if you are in a pit and the only person that can help you out" and "purity" arguments too many times, but let's reexamine them.

VB is not the only tool Belgium has to get out of the Islamo-fascist pit. They are plenty of educated people in Belgium waiting for someone to lead them down the right path. It's amazing what can happen when you raise your level of expectations and demand change.

Using logic, invert the "purity" argument. At what degree of impurity would you say the whole product is tainted? Now, at what degree of impurity would you say VB could be considered tainted?

I know I'm writing this when you are away, but I hope you will respond tomorrow.

/politeness on
/humbleness on

In all humility, I asked the question first, G-man.

Please post the name of a political party which you believe the majority of the LGF posters (i.e. "NO FASCISTS IN MY FOXHOLE, EVER~!") would approve of.

Just one.

Thanks.

Your questions could have been asked by EVERYONE here at LGF a few months ago...and kept a lot of people from developing hard feelings toward each other--but it wasn't, much to EVERYONE's hurt.

I'm going to post your question again so that others here *ahemSharKonservahem* can answer it:

"Using logic, invert the "purity" argument. At what degree of impurity would you say the whole product is tainted? Now, at what degree of impurity would you say VB could be considered tainted?"

I would be fascinated what the answer(s) would be because it cuts right to the heart of the whole issue between Charles, F-man, Pam and Baron.

Glad you asked it.

~Norsk Troll

627 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 8:34:28am

re: #625 Roger

re: #621 Poitiers-Lepanto

Hi Poitiers-Lepanto, having difficulty understanding the players in your post. Too many fascists:-) A rewrite may be helpful...

Sorry Sir, I think that a careful re-reading will be just fine.

/I am quoting Descartes...LOL !

628 Roger  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 8:38:25am

re: #626 EtNorskTroll

You touch on something I do not write about at LGF out of respect. Therefore your question is unanswerable directly. But let me quote Irish Rose:Now that I've done so, I realize that much of that complaining from the left has been justified. I was blind before, but no more.I had hoped from the beginning that a careful effort could have had a large percentage of VB members reach this same conclusion and do something about it in Belgium. That doesn't seem anywhere likely at this point.

btw the left in Europe is no haven of purity either

629 Roger  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 8:45:29am

re: #624 Poitiers-Lepanto

ah! from this post I gather my understanding of the meaning of the word fascism differs so therefore my successful reading of 621 is in jeopardy:-)

630 Charles  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 8:58:07am

Since Baron Bodissey is demanding an apology for this post, I'll post my response in this topic:

1) I did not accuse GoV of cropping the image.

2) I did not imply that the image was a Vlaams Belang image. In fact, I posted two paragraphs of information about the group who did create it.

3) Both of the points above are very clear from reading my post. Baron Bodissey is an expert at misrepresenting and distorting, and his dramatic call for an apology is just one more example.

4) There will be no apology.

5) I hope the Gates of Vienna people are proud of the community they've created. Their comments are now just as full of nasty insults and hate speech as any loony left blog's. Congrats!

631 BabbaZee  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:04:27am

4) There will be no apology.

Amen.

632 Abu Lahab  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:13:30am

Thank you, Charles, for being the great voice of sanity and reason !
Respect!

633 Charles  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:35:31am

One more note to the Baron: it's time for you to start treating your European "sources" with a little more skepticism. They burned you with their latest attempted cover-up, and now you have egg all over your face. The person you should be asking for an apology is the one who sent you that cropped image.

634 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:44:59am

re: #615 Syrah

Say what? You seem to be missing a point. I have very good reason to feel the same about nazism. Just like the vast majority op European citizens do. No difference there. The idea that many Europeans either sympathize with nazies or many are in fact fascists is a monstrous presumption.

Let's keep things into perspective. I, nor any of the many islam- watchers I personally know supports fascism. In fact, they are fighting it in islamofascism. Your post seems to suggest I am not aware of anti- fascist feelings in the States. But what makes you think you have to point this out when answering me? I don't point it out to you either? I am very surprised that after all my postings on the subject you have not understood this.

I suggest you read my posts again. Although I take it your post is well intended (that makes your post a lot more valuable and eloquent than many, many others) , if you think you have to ask me if I am an Ally to nazies, how would you feel if I suggested you are linked to nazies, or asked you if you were?

Let me (again) be clear on where I stand, since you are addressing me. I don't much like Vlaams Belang. I have serious doubts about their commitment to the counter- jihad. I am a strong supporter of Dutch MP Geert Wilders. Filip de Winter says Geert Wilders is too radical, while I feel Geert Wilders is not radical enough. I think Vlaams belang is committed to one thing and that is the Flemish nation. I even think they could be as much opposed to islam as to hindus.

But all this has been discussed time and time again. Anyone who has the sense of urgency any rational person would have concerning the islamization of the Free World would do everything they could possibly think of to end this pointless row. I say: pointless. Continuing the controversy with more of the same arguments leads to nothing. The question that each and everyone of us has to ask themselves (and each other) is: where do we go from here.

I feel Robert Spencer hits the nail on the head when he says:

... I am just watching and waiting for what VB and SD will do now, and I hope that tempers will cool on both sides and we can all continue to work together against the jihad and Islamic supremacism. There are few enough of us as it is.

One last word: in your post you say "your cause". I think you should reconsider the word "your". The right word should be "our cause"
Americans may feel that islamization is no problem to their country. It will be.

Cheers!

635 oslogin  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:49:05am

re: #611 guftafs

As a Norwegian who is opposed to Norway entering the European Union precisely because I'm sceptical to moving more power further away from the people (and to EU bureaucrats), I'm not going to argue the European Union's democratic merits.

I do not think it's correct to call it anti-democratic, but it certainly could be more democratic.

The countries which are members of the European Union are, however, all democratic and the EU could also be seen as having had a democratising effect when it comes to several of its' current member states. Even an EU-sceptic like myself has to admit that. To do otherwise would not be honest.

"As for the Eurabia thesis, I'm no longer sure it is a conscious effort. It sounds a little too much like a conspiracy theory and I'm very skeptical of all such things."

The idea of a conscious effort from the EU is the essential part of the Eurabia myth, and it is precisely what I criticise. It is a conspiracy theory, no more, no less. And it is a conspiracy theory which is important to parties such as the VB, the BNP etc. Those who are critical to Jihadism - or to Islam in general - do not need such theories: they can base their criticism on facts instead.

"I read what Prodi said but I think it could be interpreted either way. You'd need more to conclude that Bat Ye'or is wrong. But I'm not as certain as before".

I have more. It's just an example which illustrates how Bat Ye'or misquotes people. I have found many other examples, and I will hopefully be able to post a long and critical analysis of her book in some time.

I challenge all and everyone of you to research others of her statement and to examine her sources. Feel free to start with Alexandre del Valle, the guy I mentioned above (#282). Many LGF-posters have shown their capability as muckrackers. IMHO, there's plenty of muck to rake here.

Oeyvind

636 Irish Rose  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:56:18am

I've just finished reading through the comments section over at GoV. The minute shred of respect that I still had for Baron, is now gone.

637 Yank in the EU  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 10:08:43am

Well, I have much too much work right now to write up a response on what I've read here. The irrational defenses of the Vlaams Belang abound; such as, arguing that Ron Paul running as Republican is comparable to Dewinter as head of the VB, and hence from this we somehow cannot judge Dewinter's white nationalist ideology, openly stated veneration of Staf Declercq, or support for white supremacists including the BNP, the FN, the FP, or the NDP. It's absolutely true that if you follow those threads to GoV and some of the other links (AtS), you will see an unbelievable amount of bitterness and hate directed towards LGF and its commentators often in a personal way, who are justifiably leery of the VB and the white nationalist ideology as clearly defended by Fjordman, Dymphna and many others. So much for a genuine attempt at civil, thought-out discussion, eh?

638 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 10:34:13am

re: #637 Yank in the EU

The venemous reactions on both sides provoke other vernemous reaction. When people feel their integrity is under attack, they usually get furious. Furious people tend to counter- attack. In such a climate there will be no reasoning possible, I think.

A word of critique, if I may. You seem to mix up the leads from VB to fascism and "white nationalist ideology as clearly defended by Fjordman, Dymphna and many others". These issues are nog interconnected persé. Realizing this could be helpfull.

639 Charles  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 10:41:01am

re: #637 Yank in the EU

It's absolutely true that if you follow those threads to GoV and some of the other links (AtS), you will see an unbelievable amount of bitterness and hate directed towards LGF and its commentators often in a personal way, who are justifiably leery of the VB and the white nationalist ideology as clearly defended by Fjordman, Dymphna and many others. So much for a genuine attempt at civil, thought-out discussion, eh?

It's not surprising, though. GoV invited banned LGF commenters to come in and post there -- some of whom were banned for explicit racism or over-the-top insulting behavior. It doesn't take a genius to realize that those kinds of commenters are going to post nasty messages and insults about LGF. They deliberately cultivated an atmosphere of obsessive hatred, and that's what they've got.

640 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 10:44:25am

re: #638 bottehond

re: #637 Yank in the EU

The venemous reactions on both sides provoke other vernemous reaction. When people feel their integrity is under attack, they usually get furious. Furious people tend to counter- attack. In such a climate there will be no reasoning possible, I think.

A word of critique, if I may. You seem to mix up the leads from VB to fascism and "white nationalist ideology as clearly defended by Fjordman, Dymphna and many others". These issues are nog interconnected persé. Realizing this could be helpfull.

/sarcasm on
Oh yes, reactions beget reactions in a neverending cycle of violent comments. Where will it end? If we only could have a Road Map lead out by the sage Ms Rice, then all would be well.
/sarcasm off

For my part I see Fjordman, the people at GoV as defending white nationalist ideology and it's a safe guess I'm not alone in connecting these dots.

641 Yank in the EU  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 10:50:48am

re: #638 bottehond

I'll admit that some generalizing comments have been un-called for from our side, but this is nothing like the personally directed hate we have been reading for a while now.

I'm attentive to your criticism, but you are dead wrong. Part of what lies at the core of this dispute are two things: (1) whether the VB's white nationalism is defensible and (2) whether groups like the VB that support an ethnically homogenous ideal for their nation as a solution to Islamization are right in doing so, from a variety of perspectives including the strategic. Fjordman, the Brussels Journal, and Gates of Vienna have in explicit terms defended the white nationalist ideology; paraphrasing: "what is wrong in desiring one's nation remain white and in being proud of that?" I oppose, rationally and steadfastly, the racial conception of nationalism they introduce, as it is fundamentally flawed from a number of positions that can be discussed if required, and also this plan for dealing with Muslims in Europe is also errant since it will not receive enough support, even if one could rationalize it by the many ways we have seen people try.

Btw, I saw your piece linked in Dutch above which included very similar insulting comments about LGF, a "Capo", and also fairly ridiculous distortions of what the commentators here think about Europe and Europeans. This was shameful; it's kind of strange that you would show up here after writing that about the folks here.

642 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:11:21am

re: #640 guftafs

Since you are so eager to contribute. Come up with ideas, dude. being cynical is too easy. Especially since all our asses are at stake. Your "hawk"-act makes me laugh. Go bark up some other tree.

First of all: nationalism has nothing to do with "white" for most europeans. It has to do with their way of life, their sets of values and their cultural and sociological heritage. Maybe the use of this "white" connotation is part of the problem, but I bet that didn't occur to you, did it, Einstein?

Second: nationalism is one of those words in the line of "racist, xenophobia, fascism etc etc for some. I consider those quite ignorant. I mean: do you love your country? Nationalist! Would you fight for your country? Nationalist! Would you fight for the values of your country? Nationalist! How about that. I wonder why you wish to pollute discussion by being cynical. I allmost believe you haven't got the faintest idea what is at stake here. You will, one day, I am sure of that.

Third: ideology. Nationalism has nothing to do with ideology. Not anywhere near. Think about that, if you can. Get back to me once you figured it out.

643 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:23:21am

re: #641 Yank in the EU


I have my own style of writing columns. Sarcastic, sharp and provocative. No pun intended. I guess you missed that due to English being your first language. You could have asked me this before accusing me of shamefull behaviour. I more then once stated I trust Charles' judgement on the VB- controversy. So: shamefull? First get all parameters in the right order before you judge.

Funny you should mention all the insults flying over the ocean. I have had my part here. I don't care. There are more important issues at stake than my feelings, wouldn't you agree? Since you seem to be a little overheated too, why don't you try and take a step back and think what YOU can do to get things in working order again.

Ow: by the way. You are high on your horse on the islam- dossier, it seems to me. I wonder how your present ethics will hold when the deathcult takes over. Step by step.

Read my comment 640. Nationalism has nothing to do with white supremacy.

644 Yank in the EU  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:28:31am

re: #642 bottehond

First of all: nationalism has nothing to do with "white" for most europeans.

Who said nationalism is about being white for most Europeans? Understand that is called a "straw-man argument."

Maybe the use of this "white" connotation is part of the problem, but I bet that didn't occur to you, did it, Einstein?

Gee, ya think? Wow, you must be such a smart guy if you are so superior and condescending. We are just too stupid to follow, I guess, when, the BNP talks about the "white race", Seiyo at TBJ talks about the IQ of blacks being 10 points below the whites, and when Dewinter calls for a "white Europe."

Second: nationalism is one of those words in the line of "racist, xenophobia, fascism etc etc for some.

Fine, go argue with them, then. No one here argues that. It is precisely the conception of nationalism that introduces a physiologically exlusive criteria that is inherently flawed.

Third: ideology. Nationalism has nothing to do with ideology. Not anywhere near.

This is clownish. Nationalism is an ideology. Nationalism and patriotism are key parts of many decent people's ideologies, worldviews, values systems or whatever term one wants to use. I suggest trying not to be so foolish while patriotizing and insulting people.

645 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:31:04am

re: #642 bottehond

re: #640 guftafs

Since you are so eager to contribute. Come up with ideas, dude. being cynical is too easy. Especially since all our asses are at stake. Your "hawk"-act makes me laugh. Go bark up some other tree.

First of all: nationalism has nothing to do with "white" for most europeans. It has to do with their way of life, their sets of values and their cultural and sociological heritage. Maybe the use of this "white" connotation is part of the problem, but I bet that didn't occur to you, did it, Einstein?

Second: nationalism is one of those words in the line of "racist, xenophobia, fascism etc etc for some. I consider those quite ignorant. I mean: do you love your country? Nationalist! Would you fight for your country? Nationalist! Would you fight for the values of your country? Nationalist! How about that. I wonder why you wish to pollute discussion by being cynical. I allmost believe you haven't got the faintest idea what is at stake here. You will, one day, I am sure of that.

Third: ideology. Nationalism has nothing to do with ideology. Not anywhere near. Think about that, if you can. Get back to me once you figured it out.

I am sarcastic by nature. My response was appropriate to the trite cliche you opined.

First: Nationalism is tied to ethnicity in Europe. I am living in Europe, in the UK at present. Of course it is tied to "their sets of values and their cultural and sociological heritage" too. It's a package but there definitely is an ethnic component. What else does a Scotsman mean when he says "I am Scottish, not English"? He means I am born in Scotland and not in England, I wear a kilt and I eat bloody haggis, and I root for the other team against England, on principle. The English are arrogant bastards. Take any two neighbouring countries in Europe and you can find similar love-hate relationships, more or less serious. Don't tell me birth does not play a role because that is just plain wrong.

Second: No need to be rude. I think I rather enliven an at times very tedious and dull dialogue with sarcasm. You can rest assured that I will employ my sarcasm whenever I deem it appropriate. I think you raise a straw man here, by completely omitting why you want to fight for your country, what the values of your country are. There are self-loathing leftists who react just as you describe but please exclude me from that crowd.

Third: Of course racial nationalism is a form ideology. What are you talking about? Nationalism based on race is what we are discussing. Don't muddle the issue. Do you feel that we should change the subject and if so, why?

646 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:31:57am

re: #639 Charles


How do you feel about Robert Spencers' quote? I tried to picture some of his scenarios. Suppose VB en SD would state they (no longer) are no fascist, racist and/ of fascists? That would not change anything. Who'd believe them. Not many here would. In one of my columns I wrote that we can hardly call VB and SD up and tell them to drop the islam- dossier, because we do not wish to be incriminated by suspicions that exist, can we? Questions, questions...

647 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:37:25am

re: #644 Yank in the EU

What is this use of "we"? I was not adressing you in that post. The us and them thing has gotten the better of you.

645 guftafs 12/08/07 11:31:04 am

Third: Of course racial nationalism is a form ideology. What are you talking about? Nationalism based on race

* Nationalism based on a race is a the dumber brother of racial neutral nationalism.

is what we are discussing.

* it is what YOU are discussing. I think the discussion needs to be shifted into higher gear.


Don't muddle the issue.

* I am not. Maybe you are?

Do you feel that we should change the subject and if so, why?

* most certainly not. I feel this discusion needs deepening. No need to get overheated.

648 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:39:49am

re: #639 Charles

re: #637 Yank in the EU

It's absolutely true that if you follow those threads to GoV and some of the other links (AtS), you will see an unbelievable amount of bitterness and hate directed towards LGF and its commentators often in a personal way, who are justifiably leery of the VB and the white nationalist ideology as clearly defended by Fjordman, Dymphna and many others. So much for a genuine attempt at civil, thought-out discussion, eh?

It's not surprising, though -- GoV invited banned LGF commenters to come in and post there. It doesn't take a genius to realize that banned commenters are going to post nasty messages and insults. They deliberately cultivated an atmosphere of obsessive hatred, and that's what they've got.

For the record:

I, for one, condemn the name calling, provocations and those who are trying to fan the flames by "flaming" others.

Discussion is fine, but THERE IS ALREADY ENOUGH HATRED, STRIFE AND LOATHING IN THE WORLD WITHOUT ANYONE CONTRIBUTING MORE.

Doesn't matter who they are.

Or am I wrong about this?

Anyone care to say otherwise?

~Norsk Troll

649 Yank in the EU  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:41:13am

re: #643 bottehond

I guess you missed that due to English being your first language.

This is really not much of a defense. To any possible criticism or objection to such statements as "American dream wordt nachtmerrie," anyone can just say "your understanding of my language is wrong. Next!" I find this cheap and disingenuous at best, but neither is it in the end of the day worth the time to discuss your article.

Nationalism has nothing to do with white supremacy.

Off the bat, that's a factually or empirically inaccurate statement. But anyway the point is that no one has asserted a necessary connection between the two concepts. Some forms of nationalism are wonderful and necessary, some are indeed quite evil. This discussion has not been illuminating of the issues in the least.

650 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:43:39am

re: #647 bottehond

re: #644 Yank in the EU

645 guftafs 12/08/07 11:31:04 am

Third: Of course racial nationalism is a form ideology. What are you talking about? Nationalism based on race

* Nationalism based on a race is a the dumber brother of racial neutral nationalism.

is what we are discussing.

* it is what YOU are discussing. I think the discussion needs to be shifted into higher gear.


Don't muddle the issue.

* I am not. Maybe you are?

Do you feel that we should change the subject and if so, why?

* most certainly not. I feel this discusion needs deepening. No need to get overheated.

Says you, says me. Maybe you are? Well, I'll leave you to discuss whatever you want to discuss with whomever. Don't overheat when you shift into higher gear.

651 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:46:36am

re: #645 guftafs

Maybe you get the picture clearer when I tell you my sons are jewish and colored (Indonesia). American nationalism isn't about the color of your skin, is it? That means nationalism is not persé interconnected with that white thing. Agreed?

652 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:49:51am

re: #649 Yank in the EU

I would appreciate it if you didn't question my integrity. The past weeks have done more than enough damage that way. So: answer my question. What about that "we" stuff? I am allowed in here by Charles, that makes me a Lizard too. Speak for yourself. Charles does and I do. Talking in "we" doesn't impress me. far from it.

653 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 11:51:42am

re: #651 bottehond

I would say the more appropriate term is patriotism as opposed to nationalism. Loving a country founded on the idea that all individuals are equal before the law such as the US is different from loving a country because of its fjords, mountains, its customs, its people. The latter kind of nation does not really stand for much except the accidents of history. The US is unique in that it was created with view to implement specific ethical principles. Note that all kinds of murky types try to make use of the legitimate concept 'patriotism' when in fact they mean 'nationalism'.

At least this is I've come to understand it.

654 Yank in the EU  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 12:03:46pm

re: #652 bottehond

I would appreciate it if you didn't question my integrity.

I understand, and the point is really not to perpetuate personal attacks. But there is also a time to call poor and disingenuous behavior what it really is, and to do so calmly and with as much detached patience as possible. In theory, perhaps some points may be a misunderstanding or a mere outcome of emotions; those can be easily forgiven and forgotten. Still, there is a rightful place for responding to what one sees as wrong and as mistreatment of folks, with no respect at all for their dignity, be it national, personal or otherwise. About this "we," I mean when the group of individuals commenting here, of which I am part, are attacked as whole often in disturbing fashions. You may be one of the commentators or not, but that doesn't necessarily mean that, say, somewhere else you are telling people 'at LGF they think all Europeans are fascists'. To make it clear, the last point was a example in regard to the former point, not raising a new bone of petty contention.

655 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 12:10:16pm

re: #653 guftafs

Maybe we should invent a new word that is not contaminated and does cover the cargo. Patriotism to some is worse than nationalism. Is nationalism a contaminated word in the States?

One thing I am wondering about. I saw some articles by a man named Lawrence Auster on this controversy and he seemed to have some reasonable arguments. I allso saw someone calling him a "white nationalist". Can you tell me who/ what he is and where he stand on these issues?

656 gman  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 12:15:43pm

re: #626 EtNorskTroll

I have seen the comments from Sharmuta, konservo, and others and I think they have answered the "purity" question many times over. The answer is simple. LGF'ers do not like the associations among the top leaders of VB with Neo- nazi symbols and Neo-nazi sympathizers. If the top leaders of the party are involved then it raises serious credibility issues for the entire organization.

Now for my question again,

Using logic, invert the "purity" argument. At what degree of impurity would you say the whole product is tainted? Now, at what degree of impurity would you say VB could be considered tainted?

Et Norsk Troll, at what degree of impurity would it take for VB to be qualified as severely tainted?

Because, if you can't answer the question then it means that you are not serious about 2- way dialogue.

657 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 12:20:35pm

re: #654 Yank in the EU

You should read the things some Lizards insinuated or flat out called me. It occured to me this week that a heavy debate like this controversy is perhaps better not "fought" in writing (mails, columns and internet). There is a certain limitation to interaction this way that maybe also accounts for this getting out of hand. I wonder what would happen if the capo (hehehe) particpants in the controversy were locked up by their readers for a week with some good mediators with them. We could throw in some pizzas and crates of wine and let the out only after they had reached some agreement. Allas, the Internet is a blessing for mankind, but it sure has some shortcomings.
Scusi if I made you angry, yank in the EU. My writing- style is and stays kinda doggish.

I am out. My wife says dury is calling, hehehhe.

Cheers!

658 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 12:24:04pm

re: #635 oslogin

re: #611 guftafs

I do not think it's correct to call it anti-democratic, but it certainly could be more democratic.

The countries which are members of the European Union are, however, all democratic and the EU could also be seen as having had a democratising effect when it comes to several of its' current member states. Even an EU-sceptic like myself has to admit that. To do otherwise would not be honest.

"As for the Eurabia thesis, I'm no longer sure it is a conscious effort. It sounds a little too much like a conspiracy theory and I'm very skeptical of all such things."

The idea of a conscious effort from the EU is the essential part of the Eurabia myth, and it is precisely what I criticise. It is a conspiracy theory, no more, no less. And it is a conspiracy theory which is important to parties such as the VB, the BNP etc. Those who are critical to Jihadism - or to Islam in general - do not need such theories: they can base their criticism on facts instead.

"I read what Prodi said but I think it could be interpreted either way. You'd need more to conclude that Bat Ye'or is wrong. But I'm not as certain as before".

I have more. It's just an example which illustrates how Bat Ye'or misquotes people. I have found many other examples, and I will hopefully be able to post a long and critical analysis of her book in some time.

Oeyvind

The EU is not totalitarian yet, but the groundwork is being laid. And this regardless of the Muslim threat.

Is there any corroborating proof that the EAD is what Bet Ye'or says? Other things the EU does, for example their attempt to create a United States of Europe can be traced through various statements and ratified treaties. But I can't recall having heard anything about the EAD or any recent comments about it. This would mean the eurocrats are very good at hiding this, something they have failed to do with the formation of the super EU state, however much the obfuscate. Or that noone has bothered to take note of it. If you claim a grand scheme behind events despite the absence of proof you have by definition a conspiracy theory.

659 Yank in the EU  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 12:26:07pm

re: #657 bottehond

Have a good night and a good Sunday.

660 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 1:27:45pm

re: #656 gman

re: #626 EtNorskTroll

I have seen the comments from Sharmuta, konservo, and others and I think they have answered the "purity" question many times over. The answer is simple. LGF'ers do not like the associations among the top leaders of VB with Neo- nazi symbols and Neo-nazi sympathizers. If the top leaders of the party are involved then it raises serious credibility issues for the entire organization.

Now for my question again,

Using logic, invert the "purity" argument. At what degree of impurity would you say the whole product is tainted? Now, at what degree of impurity would you say VB could be considered tainted?

Et Norsk Troll, at what degree of impurity would it take for VB to be qualified as severely tainted?

Because, if you can't answer the question then it means that you are not serious about 2- way dialogue.

/humbleness on
/gentleness on

In all humility, I asked the question first, G-man:

Please name a party which all the majority of the LGF posters would approve of (i.e. "NO FASCISTS IN MY FOXHOLE!") that is anti-jihad and political in nature.

Show me your answer and I'll show you mine.

Thanks.
~Norsk Troll

661 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 1:33:58pm

re: #655 bottehond

re: #653 guftafs

Maybe we should invent a new word that is not contaminated and does cover the cargo. Patriotism to some is worse than nationalism. Is nationalism a contaminated word in the States?

One thing I am wondering about. I saw some articles by a man named Lawrence Auster on this controversy and he seemed to have some reasonable arguments. I allso saw someone calling him a "white nationalist". Can you tell me who/ what he is and where he stand on these issues?

I don't know. And my apologies for my over the top replies. Some people deserve it, some not and I was still in "quash them all" mode. I still can't understand your position, though.

662 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 1:38:23pm

...and let us be VERY clear about this, G-man:

LGF and it's posters have condemned VB, GoV, F-man, SD and other anti-jihadi groups for a select reasons.

Fine.

Good & well.

NOW...let's see the lizards here name anti-jihadi political groups they DO approve of.

You've criticized and cast aside these other groups. Name some yourself.

You say it's not a two-way street?

You're joking, right?

You (by extension) have blown away many of the groups who have been presented. Now it's time for you to present your OWN groups.

Fair is fair, don't you agree?

I look forward to your response.

You are not allowed to keep shooting down other suggestions, offer none of your own and then say that "communication is a two-way street".

You are insane if you think that.

/politeness still on
/humbleness still on

~Norsk Troll

663 EE  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 1:56:58pm

It's helpful to be aware of what is called "the fallacy of the excluded middle" (as well as some other names that this fallacy is known by). Here is the Wikipedia entry on it. Basically, it means that the fallacious assumption is that there are only two possibilities.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

664 EE  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 1:58:59pm

re #663

False dilemma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The informal fallacy of false dilemma—also known as false choice, false dichotomy, falsified dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, black and white thinking, false correlative, either/or fallacy, and bifurcation—involves a situation in which two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there exists one or more other options which have not been considered.

665 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:04:16pm

re: #663 EE

It's helpful to be aware of what is called "the fallacy of the excluded middle" (as well as some other names that this fallacy is known by). Here is the Wikipedia entry on it. Basically, it means that the fallacious assumption is that there are only two possibilities.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Excellent, EE.

Excellent.

'Bout time someone start talking about compromise--the middle--conceding...whatever you want to call it.

Please, EE: won't you please present some "excluded middle" anti-jihad political groups for us here?

Sharmuta, Highrise, Konservo and a host of others need to be shown that there are excluded middle options.

Thanks.

(wonderful, just wonderful).

~Norsk Troll

666 EE  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:06:37pm

The fallacy of the excluded middle can be used for various purposes. For example, if it is proposed that there are only two choices, one from the real world, and one that doesn't exist, then it can be fallaciously argued that all choices from the real world are equal or equivalent.

Of course this omits a lot of other choices.

An example of this fallacious effort to establish equivalence:
There are only those parties that are absolutely pure, and there are the neo-Nazis. Since you cannot show me a party that is absolutely pure, then the neo-Nazis are equivalent to all other parties.

The fallacy is that in the real word there is no perfection. The fallacy is that there are degrees of troublesomeness.

In the case of the neo-Nazis, I would argue (and I speak for myself, not for anybody else) that the neo-Nazis are at or near the extreme of evil. We have seen what their predecessors, the Nazis, did, and they sparked a world war in which tens of millions of people met an early death. They had their chance, and they showed how evil and destructive their movement is. Enough is enough!

667 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:14:39pm

re: #662 EtNorskTroll

Is your reasoning like this?

You don't have any suggestions of whom to support.

Therefore you are wrong in your claiming that supporting the VB and condemning its supporters is wrong.

668 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:15:16pm

Sharmuta and Konservo have already signed on with the USA as an ally with LGF in the anti-jihad movement (in spite of there being fringe groups in the USA which she disagrees with vehemently)...and I take that as a sign of progress.

Now, let's see if we can move over just a little more, shall we?

It might turn out that there is a lot more room in that foxhole than once believed...

and for the record: Yes or no, Sharmuta--do you accept the USA as an anti-jihad political ally in your foxhole?

I just want to be very sure I understand your position.

~Norsk Troll

669 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:16:44pm

re: #667 guftafs

re: #662 EtNorskTroll

Is your reasoning like this?

You don't have any suggestions of whom to support.

Therefore you are wrong in your claiming that supporting the VB and condemning its supporters is wrong.

I never said any "therefore" of any kind, guftafs.

I only asked for a party to be named.

~Norsk Troll
/one step at a time

670 EtNorskTroll  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:18:49pm

re: #666 EE

The fallacy of the excluded middle can be used for various purposes. For example, if it is proposed that there are only two choices, one from the real world, and one that doesn't exist, then it can be fallaciously argued that all choices from the real world are equal or equivalent.

Of course this omits a lot of other choices.

An example of this fallacious effort to establish equivalence:
There are only those parties that are absolutely pure, and there are the neo-Nazis. Since you cannot show me a party that is absolutely pure, then the neo-Nazis are equivalent to all other parties.

The fallacy is that in the real word there is no perfection. The fallacy is that there are degrees of troublesomeness.

In the case of the neo-Nazis, I would argue (and I speak for myself, not for anybody else) that the neo-Nazis are at or near the extreme of evil. We have seen what their predecessors, the Nazis, did, and they sparked a world war in which tens of millions of people met an early death. They had their chance, and they showed how evil and destructive their movement is. Enough is enough!

Please name a party, EE.

Thanks.

(it's getting late. I'll get back to you all later.)

~ENT

671 guftafs  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:20:32pm

re: #669 EtNorskTroll

re: #667 guftafs

re: #662 EtNorskTroll

Is your reasoning like this?

You don't have any suggestions of whom to support.

Therefore you are wrong in your claiming that supporting the VB and condemning its supporters is wrong.

I never said any "therefore" of any kind, guftafs.

I only asked for a party to be named.

~Norsk Troll
/one step at a time

But aren't these separate issues? Who to support and who not to support? Establishing that VB et al are blinking evil idiots is one issue, identifying allies another. (Temporarily) failing in the latter does not invalidate the conclusions over the former issue, does it?

672 Charles  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 2:34:11pm

This is turning into a real 'globular clusters' kind of moment here.

673 gman  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 3:03:54pm

re: #660 EtNorskTroll

re: #656 gman

re: #626 EtNorskTroll

I have seen the comments from Sharmuta, konservo, and others and I think they have answered the "purity" question many times over. The answer is simple. LGF'ers do not like the associations among the top leaders of VB with Neo- nazi symbols and Neo-nazi sympathizers. If the top leaders of the party are involved then it raises serious credibility issues for the entire organization.

Now for my question again,

Using logic, invert the "purity" argument. At what degree of impurity would you say the whole product is tainted? Now, at what degree of impurity would you say VB could be considered tainted?

Et Norsk Troll, at what degree of impurity would it take for VB to be qualified as severely tainted?

Because, if you can't answer the question then it means that you are not serious about 2- way dialogue.

/humbleness on
/gentleness on

In all humility, I asked the question first, G-man:

Please name a party which all the majority of the LGF posters would approve of (i.e. "NO FASCISTS IN MY FOXHOLE!") that is anti-jihad and political in nature.

Show me your answer and I'll show you mine.

Thanks.
~Norsk Troll


If you go back and look at my post #605, you will see that I already answered the question by telling you that you dismissed Peter's posting too quickly. The Republican Party is a viable party. Ron Paul is not as senior a member of the Republican Party as Filip Dewinter is of VB. So, pick your comparisons wisely. So, now it's your turn to answer my question.

In your opinion Et Norsk Troll, to what degree of impurity would it take for VB to be qualified as severely tainted?

674 gman  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 3:18:41pm

re: #672 Charles

This is turning into a real 'globular clusters' kind of moment here.

Exactly. You answer their questions, but they pretend you never answered them and then they keeping asking the same question over and over again.

675 Render  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 3:43:35pm

About Lawrence Auster...

===

Lawrence Auster, (amnation website), wrote the below paragraph on FrontPageMag, which undoubtedly contributed to his being fired from FrontPageMag by David Horowitz.

“Jews' risible obsession with non-existent evangelical Protestant anti-Semites, combined with their obliviousness to actual mass murdering Islamist anti-Semites (whom, moreover, the Jews' favored immigration policies have allowed into this country) is an amazing phenomenon that we should not dismiss as simply a bizarre ethnic idiosyncrasy. It expresses, rather, a central preoccupation of a significant number of Jews, namely their corrosive apprehension of what they think the goyim might one day do to them—a fear they entertain despite the fact that, apart from some social exclusions and other ethnic prejudices that existed up to the end of World War II, Jews have never faced serious anti-Semitism from the white Christian majority in this country.”

The so-called Jewish “obsession” is not “risible” when we can point directly to Mr. Auster’s longtime friends Jared Taylor and David Duke. As far as this poster knows, neither Taylor nor Duke is evangelical or Protestant. But both are, unquestionably, anti-Semitic, by their own admissions and actions. Mr. Auster appears to be implying that David Duke, Jared Taylor and their fellow storm troopers in suits are not “serious” anti-Semites.

Mr. Auster failed to mention in that article, his many direct connections to Jared Taylor of the racist AmRen website. Mr. Auster did not mention his own attendance at many of Jared Taylor’s AmRen racist conferences. Also in attendance at many of those same conferences were both David Duke and Don Black (of the neo-nazi Stormfront website).

Mr. Auster did not mention his continued contact with Taylor’s organization or with Taylor himself, although he did openly admit to those very connections in his postings on the racialist Inverted-World website.

Even as Mr. Auster was writing his attempted defense of Gov, and Vlaams Belang, he was re-posting Jared Taylor’s racist works on his own amnation website.

A former Lizard named New Tommy agreed so much with Auster’s anti-Semitic column at FrontPageMag that he felt the need to cut&paste the above paragraph from that column of Auster’s right here on LGF. Which would explain why New Tommy is a "former" LGF Lizard, now banned.

Mr. Auster was/is attempting to blame the entire phenomena of Muslim and Hispanic illegal immigration into the United States directly at the feet of all American Jews and only American Jews. This might go a long ways toward explaining why a Jew like David Horowitz would fire an ex-Jew like Mr. Auster after a column like that.

LGF has seen projection like Mr. Auster’s before, when Muslim Imam’s and Muslim community leaders join with Leftists all over the world, to blame all of the problems of the Middle East on a mythical organized Jewish conspiracy.

LGF knows that when there is projection like that, it’s hiding something else. Mr. Auster will be remembered not for the body of his racialist works, but for being the only man to be dumped by both David Duke and David Horowitz in the same year.

===

I’ll be expecting a Christmas bonus in my monthly Zionist paycheck.

COUNTER
BATTERY,
R

676 Render  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 3:57:31pm

The United States military looks to be a non-racist "political" group that is unquestionably anti-Jihadist.

In fact, it appears all to obvious to me, that the US military has done more damage to the Jihadist movement than all of the "counter-jihadist" groups/movements/political parties combined.

The US military, as a whole, cannot be accused of being racist or anti-Semitic. In the Army, everybody is Olive-Drab Green.

So all you Johnny Come Lately Jew-hating neo-nazi's in suits, and all your Jew-hating skinhead street thugs, can go right back to your Jihadi Jew-hating friends.

We don't like you. We don't need you. We don't want you. Ever.

MINUS,
R

677 hazzyday  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:00:24pm

re: #664 EE
This is Sean Hannity described to a "T" Sometimes with some disorganized thinkers I think he works it well. Other times with more thoughtful people he just browbeats them with this type of logic and never really reaches a point himself. He just looks bad then.

re #663


False dilemma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The informal fallacy of false dilemma—also known as false choice, false dichotomy, falsified dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, black and white thinking, false correlative, either/or fallacy, and bifurcation—involves a situation in which two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there exists one or more other options which have not been considered.
678 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:03:25pm

re: #676 Render

The United States military looks to be a non-racist "political" group that is unquestionably anti-Jihadist.

In fact, it appears all to obvious to me, that the US military has done more damage to the Jihadist movement than all of the "counter-jihadist" groups/movements/political parties combined.

That is a real Arnold Schwarzeneggers' Terminator comment. I love it.

679 hazzyday  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:13:41pm

re: #668 EtNorskTroll

GWB is the primary leader in the world working to enable moderate Islam to succeed. He has done more single handedly than any other 100 leaders in the world. Even though I cringe at his speaking style. He works in a more rarified atmoshere where results are harder to achieve. The democratic opposition is basically assisting the enemy at every change they get for their short sighted political goals.

Rudy Giuliani is next up to bat and will have a harder line on Anti-jihadi' then GWB.

I think Mitt will be more of a talker and compromiser.

Fred is in bed with the jihadi's supporters in the US. See Debbie Schleussel (sp?)

And as a poster above has stated the US military is doing the work the UN, the State Department, and the various international aid agencies are unable to do in Iraq. I am extremely proud and humbled by them. I was in the military once and never would have envisioned myself with the huge responsbilities and burdens these young men and women carrry so gracefully and strongly now.

ETN your leading logically commentary for me is a "pierre legrande" moment for me.

680 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:18:24pm

re: #672 Charles

Pandora's Box. Let something good come out of it. Do you get any sensible advise on this matter from people who can reasonably judge the situation? If it is only the Lizards post you have to depend on, that has some downsides too, I suppose. I most certainly do not envy you, Charles. I have been in exact the same situation once at a very popular and influential Free Press shock log in the Netherlands,
[Link: www.geenstijl.nl...]
I am sure it is not the same magnitude as your ordeal, but still. I do not envy you. Keep listening to your conscience would be the only advise one could give you.
Well, it's Sunday here, so I thought I'd throw in a preachers' lecture. Hope it's helpfull.

681 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:22:47pm

# 644 Yank in the EU 12/08/07 11:28:31 am reply quote report 2

Gentleman, my sincere congratulations. As from post # 644 no one has pushed any JUDGING- buttons. My respect to y'all.

682 Kirly  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:50:36pm

re: #641 Yank in the EU

Yank, my apologies for accidentally hitting the minus when i meant to hit the plus. Definitely a PLUS!

kirls

683 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:54:45pm

re: #675 Render

Heavy shit for an apostate, for sure. He has great skills as a writer though. So: what is he? A selfhating Jew? You see that often with victims. They start identifying with their attackers. Stockholm syndrome. We have some of those here. Een Ander Joods Geluid (a different Jewish sound), they are all peace with the palestinians etc etc. And a Jew mayor (descendant of one of the Jews from the Jewish council, who helped administrate and organise the deportation of mainly Amsterdam Jews). He is turning Amsterdam into Islamsterdam, allowing partial sharia law in some of the muslim- enclaves in Islamsterdam. Job Cohen gets the job done. He says he feels not a Jew. Remarkable, it's like a bird saying: I am not a bird. Mind you: Job was mayor of the century or something. Worldwide. Great PR, that's for sure.

684 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:55:51pm

re: #619 jeppo

I put up my list of fascist alignment excuses- you chose three separate and distinct answers- A, C, and D. I thanked you for your honesty and asked if that meant I could officially call you a fascist apologist, to which you replied for me to "knock myself out". I took that to mean I could. You'll also note since then I haven't actually called you a fascist apologist, either. But I have called, and will continue to call you disingenuous because you are. Your avatar says it all.

685 gman  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 4:57:07pm

re: #678 bottehond

re: #676 Render

The United States military looks to be a non-racist "political" group that is unquestionably anti-Jihadist.

In fact, it appears all to obvious to me, that the US military has done more damage to the Jihadist movement than all of the "counter-jihadist" groups/movements/political parties combined.

That is a real Arnold Schwarzeneggers' Terminator comment. I love it.

Your comment is becoming pretty familiar to us in America. Usually people who have been brainwashed by their state television to believe that America is nothing but Super-Size Me burgers, big gas- guzzling SUV's, and right- wing fanatics make it. I am reminded so much of Avi Lewis' interview of Hirsi Ali. Avi is so utterly clueless that when Hirsi says she is proud of being in America, he thinks she's speaking in cliche's. America is so much more than you've been led to believe.

686 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 5:13:32pm

re: #685 gman

Dude, I meant what I posted. What a lot of folks in the Western World lack is balls. That's why they back off. Politicians, you know the kind I am talking about. NGO- managers, that sort of people. Dhimmitude in action. Call me a hardliner, I don't care. If US and NATO military press on they'll succed in evaporating al qaeda. Did you know my countries' soldiers have been fighting side by side with your military? And we are going to stay in Afghanestan side by side with US soldiers for at least two more years. How about that. So: nu pun intended. And non taken after my post, I'm sure.

687 Charles  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 5:59:36pm

re: #686 bottehond

What a lot of folks in the Western World lack is balls.

I'm still searching for mine.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

688 konservo  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 6:09:23pm

I've got my balls, but I can't find my marbles.

689 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 6:18:18pm

re: #687 Charles

Hehehehehe... I think you found them, dude.

690 bottehond  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 6:22:31pm

re: #688 konservo


Being a Lizard means you're not one of them, Konservo. Every individual islam- critic is fighting an uphill battle. No matter what language they speak or interests they persue. Except fascism, off course, whatever that may be. Anyone care to give a definition?

691 Josephine  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 6:38:05pm

re: #284 Johnny Canuck

re: #273 Iron Fist

They can't fight on their own, or defend themselves, not allowed by law. That's what I mean about Governments actively against the native population. If they go out and defend themsleves the Government acts against them instead of the islamists. What you propose sounds ideologically correct except that it doesn't work in Europe anymore. Citizens don't have a right to fight anymore and that is what most North Americans can't understand.

This sounds like you're complaining that the government won't permit mob rule. Are you saying it's a problem when, if someone indulges in vigilante justice, the government punishes them instead of the original criminal?

That's called the rule of law and it's part of living in a civilized country.

If someone commits a crime, it's up to the criminal justice system to punish them. If citizens think the system is failing, then citizens need to lobby and work to change the system.

Maybe I've misunderstood your point.

Anyway, I have a strange sense of deja vu, as if I've read your post before, almost word for word.

692 JHW  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 7:51:43pm

re: #686 bottehond

You are from the Netherlands I believe, and I recognize and have posted about their contribution in Afghanistan, excellent soldiers. But not all the NATO countries have been pulling their weight. In the Cold War we had a lot of sneering from Europe about if only the USA would stop being "provocative" the USSR would be peaceable. 50 years we spent a fortune defending Europe while Europe in general neglected their militaries and opted for social spending instead. We get in thanks "Arnold Schwartzenegger, Cowboy, warmonger "crap in return, and while I recognize and am grateful for our allies contributions, for every drop of blood shed or dollar spent by our allies it is exceeded a hundred-fold by our soldiers. I`m pretty tired of getting sneered at by our allies, their blood is no more precious than ours. Please realize I am not criticizing your posts, I`m criticizing what our (US) idea is we get from reading a lot of opinion in Europe. Sometimes in a bad mood I think we should go back to pre-WW1 isolationism and let Europe do or die as they wish.

Again, please note, I am not criticizing your posts, just venting my frustration on what we in the states, mistakenly or not, feel the general European disdain for our sacrifices.

693 konservo  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 8:37:00pm
re: #690 bottehond

Except fascism, off course, whatever that may be. Anyone care to give a definition?

Sure, this a frequent question of Islamic apologists who don't like the word 'Islamofascism' so I've defined it many times.

Many people think that 'Fascism' and 'Corporatism' are synonymous, but this is not the case. While a Fascist regime certainly exercises totalitarian control over commerce as well as other spheres of work and labor, it is not true that 'Fascism' is 'a state run by corporations,'* which is what American leftists like to proclaim as they point out that some govt official has stock in Lockheed Martin or Halliburton.

However, 'Fascism' is derived from the Latin word 'fasces', and 'fasces' is derived from 'fascis,' meaning 'bundle' or 'pack'. The Fasces was a bundle of wooden rods with the head of an ax protruding from the top, and it

" ...symbolized the power of life or death that a Roman Magistrate had over the Roman citizen; who could be scourged by the birch rods, representing physical punishment for transgressions; or be beheaded by the axe for serious crimes."

[Link: www.legionxxiv.org...]

The 'bundle' also came to symbolize "unity" through a common purpose, goal, or ideology. So a 'Fascist' regime, defined by me, is:

A small to moderately sized political group, who share specific common goals, purposes, and/or ideology which guide their actions in politics. As the regime is relatively small compared to rest of the population, the Fascists must have totalitarian control over the lives of the citizens in order to stay in power. By exploiting psychological and ideological vulnerabilities, both in general (such as the fear of death) and in particular to the people in question (for example, hatred of Francophones in Flanders or the 'impurity' of the infidel in Islam), and by appealing to shared glory which sets the present in the framework of the mythical past (such as adopting symbols and icons of Proto-Germanic deities as representations of the greatness of the "Aryan race"), a Fascist regime is able to establish the totalitarian authority over the population, which it requires.

I probably left some stuff out, but that's pretty much how I understand fascism. Oh, and, yes, this means that Stalinism works very much like fascism.

* Technically, "Fascism" is 'a state run by a single corporation.' But, the word 'corporation' has to be understood as "a group" or "a body," "corpus" in Latin, from which the word corporation is derived.

694 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:06:16pm

re: #690 bottehond

Anyone care to give a definition?

How about mussolini? Will he do?

695 EE  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:11:28pm

re: #677 hazzyday

re: #664 EE
This is Sean Hannity described to a "T" Sometimes with some disorganized thinkers I think he works it well. Other times with more thoughtful people he just browbeats them with this type of logic and never really reaches a point himself. He just looks bad then.

re #663


False dilemma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The informal fallacy of false dilemma—also known as false choice, false dichotomy, falsified dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, black and white thinking, false correlative, either/or fallacy, and bifurcation—involves a situation in which two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there exists one or more other options which have not been considered.

The point I was trying to make is this: If somebody demands to know what party is pure (none, of course), in order to present all parties as being equivalent to the neo-Nazis, then they have committed the fallacy of the excluded middle. By that I mean that there is a whole range of parties that are not pure, in an ideal sense, but are not the same as the neo-Nazis.

But all that is obvious, I would hope.

The idea of saying: name a party in Europe that is anti-jihadist (but is not the Vlaams Belang or a similar White Nationalist party) is another matter. It may be a call for political advice, but it pre-emptively frames the advice in a certain way. Maybe the best advice is not to join a particular party at all, but to form a new party. Maybe the best advice is to join a party that leans away from leftist-style appeasement, and needs some members to steer it to be more anti-jihadist. Maybe the best advice is to join with supporters of outstanding political people in Europe who are not crazy, like supporters of Sarkozy in France or Merkel in Germany.

As for political advice, my first thought is this: First do no harm. That's the advice given to doctors, and although I am not a doctor, I think that there is some value in that.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It seems to me, and I am speaking only for myself, that helping to bring the "White Nationalists" (the Odin's Cross movement of white racists) into power would be to bring harm, to make the situation worse than most anything imaginable. I believe that their agenda is going to be some form of ethnic cleansing on a massive scale -- of non-whites and of infidels -- whether by massacre, or expulsion, or some combination of them, perhaps involving terrorism. Bringing a Nieuwe Ordening (New Order) into being, where this "New Order" is like the old Nazi order, would be making the situation worse in my opinion.

696 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:14:51pm
The Fascist conception of life is a religious one, in which man is viewed in his immanent relation to a higher law, endowed with an objective will transcending the individual and raising him to conscious membership of a spiritual society. "Those who perceive nothing beyond opportunistic considerations in the religious policy of the Fascist regime fail to realize that Fascism is not only a system of government but also and above all a system of thought.

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity. It is opposed to classical liberalism which arose as a reaction to absolutism and exhausted its historical function when the State became the expression of the conscience and will of the people. Liberalism denied the State in the name of the individual; Fascism reasserts the rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual.

That's fascism, dude.

697 Highrise  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:58:47pm

I'm pretty damn clear...

No nazi's or those who support them in my foxhole.

I seriously need to turn that into a damn bumper sticker. Some simple minds around here that post on gov stupidly can't seem to freakin get that!

I hate islamists and nazi's...oh noo...mr. bill! I'm into purity! If you believe that correlation you are plain arse dumb.

698 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 9:59:48pm

re: #665 EtNorskTroll

You are the most disingenuous piece of work to come down the pike in a LOOONG ass time.

YOU are the one who has called for truces and alliances. Now you twist our words against us trying to claim we are not looking for middle options.

Go. To. Hell!

699 Highrise  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 10:08:18pm

The Purity charge that those like etnorsktroll want to throw at people is just a smokescreen.

And they know it...it's why they panic and have to talk in circles to turn it around on you that it is a matter of a purity question when you say no NAZI or their sympathizers in your hole . I call BULL SHIT..and I don't cuss much on this blog but holy hell...there comes a time to say enough bs smokescreening.

etnorsktroll, with the bible verses you spew here on various threads and then this argument that you keep coming back to in support of the fascists, really makes me wonder about your heart. True, God can only judge your heart, but your actions and words are speaking to me as trying to make a deal with the devil.

think

about

it

and

repent

while

you

can.

700 JHW  Sat, Dec 8, 2007 10:44:51pm

Highrise, glad to see you here tonight, without getting too personal, you`re still in SW Washington? I`m in N. Grays Hbr. county and I guess you know probably all too well about this huge storm. I think the winds got to hurricane force, my power was off for almost 3 days, trees down everywhere. My mother , mid 80 year age, lives in an area where the power`s been off since Sunday, slated to be at least another 3 or 4 days, so many power lines down. Hope your parents are OK.

Lewis county looks like it might have flood problems. I went through the Columbus Day storm in `62, and as a logger just cutting up the blown down trees from that storm kept me going for 2-3 years. For that matter we still even today sometimes work in areas that were creamed in the 1921 hurricane, the cedar trees dont rot even after centuries on the ground. I heard that the winds here locally in this last storm probably passed the 100m.p.h. mark.

Anyway, hope you and your family made out OK.

701 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:12:21am

re: #619 jeppo

The VB clearly state in their platform that other European countries have granted amnesty. You claimed to have a source that contradicted that.

Yes- I do have a source.

zuckerlilly even asks for a link from (of all people) etnorsktroll to prove other european countries DO have these amnesty laws, so perhaps you're asking the wrong person for the wrong link. Go ask the et troll to prove you're correct.

702 Syrah  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:19:14am

re: #634 bottehond

The row is not pointless.

Far from it.

It is paramount.

The counter-jihad movement in Europe is on the front lines of the coming civilizational conflict with Islam. I wish it were not so but providence and geography have set the battlefield for us where it is and there is very little that we can do about it. The only thing that we really can do at present is prepare the battlefield for that time when or even IF America will come and join Europe in its inevitable existential confrontation with the swords of Allah.

That “IF” is not casual.

IF there is even a hint of ethnic nationalism tied to the counter-jihad movement in Europe, America will not come to Europe's aid.

Europe can not win this alone.

You don't have the numbers.

With us, you may stand a slim chance of saving some of Europe from the new dark age.

With out us, we will both be destroyed.

I have tried to convey with strong words that America is viscerally and implacably allergic to ethnic nationalism of any kind.

Ethnic nationalism negates the very essence of who and what we are as a people.

We would prefer suicide to avoid compromise on that issue.

We would choose suicide to avoid compromise on that issue.

There should be no shred of doubt that America would sacrifice Europe without hesitation to avoid compromise on that issue.

It is imperative that the European counter-jihad movement understand that fact about their American cousins across the sea.

Now to the meat.

Robert Spencer is mistaken.

This can not be resolved by waiting to see what VB and SD will now do.

Waiting is the worst choice for the European Counter Jihad movement. It must act and it must act now.

You have a David Duke type problem in the European counter jihad movement, much as the Republicans here in the states had in 1991.

The European counter Jihad movement needs to do to the ethnic nationalist in their midst what the Republicans did when that opportunistic Klu Klux Klan Grand Wizard took advantage of the weak party structure and goofy open primary election laws of Louisiana.

The Ethnic Nationalist must be made unwelcome in the counter Jihad movement in no uncertain terms and with no room for equivocation. They must be rebuked and they must be expelled in the most open and headline catching manner possible. They must be made to feel more at home in the company of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad then with the members of the European counter-jihad.

This must be done and it must be done now.

If the Republicans had taken a "wait and see" approach with David Duke in 1991, there would no longer be a Republican Party.

The European counter-jihad movement can no more afford to simply wait then could the Republicans.

VB is pretty clearly an ethnic nationalist party that would appear to the overwhelming majority of Americans as little more than a Flemish Nazi party. Some VB supporters may think that such a perception would be unfair, but we are not talking about fairness here, we are talking about politics as it relates to American core beliefs.

There is no room for Nazis in our foxholes.

The European counter-jihad will have to choose between Nazis and Americans. You can have one or the other. You can't have both.

The European counter-jihad movement must not fail to understand that, and it must not fail to come to grips with how important that is to Americans.

With Nazis as your chosen allies, the counter-jihad in Europe is “your cause”, not “ours.” We can join you and make it “our cause” together only when the ethnic nationalist are convincingly repudiated, rebuked and expelled.

There is no third way.

There will be no compromise.

703 Highrise  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:39:13am

JHW.

I want to let you know I'll respond to you tomorrow. I'm truly touched...I'm dead atm.

You take care..will respond soon!

704 guftafs  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 2:13:01am

re: #702 Syrah

re: #634 bottehond

Robert Spencer is mistaken.

I believe Spencer is still letting Fjordman post at his websites. Spencer should know better.

705 BabbaZee  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:49:08am

re: #687 Charles

re: #686 bottehond

What a lot of folks in the Western World lack is balls.

I'm still searching for mine.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]


Balls.
If I had 'em, I'd be KING!
;~}

706 irish rose  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:18:03am

re: #702 Syrah

Pretty much it, in a nutshell.

707 irish rose  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:42:12am

Charles... would it be possible to start a continuation thread, with a link to this one?

There have been some excellent, enlightening posts here regarding the differences in counter-jihad ideology between Americans and Europeans, and I hate to see the whole thing drop off the map.

Our European friends have to understand that Americans are very serious about this... we WILL withhold American support for Europe, if their anti-jihad fight is contaminated with the poison of white nationalism.

Our European friends may scoff at this idea, and presume that American support will always be there for them no matter what.

They could not be more wrong, and they ignore what is stated here at their own peril.

708 irish rose  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:49:57am

And may I suggest that you use post #702 as a discussion point? Syrah is right on the money with this.

709 Former Belgian  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:16:23am

re: #702 Syrah

re: #634 bottehond

I have tried to convey with strong words that America is viscerally and implacably allergic to ethnic nationalism of any kind.

Ethnic nationalism negates the very essence of who and what we are as a people.
.

I think you are treading on thin ice here, as well as in "false dichotomy" territory. By your definition read literally, Zionism would be off-limits as well. (Many

We can all agree that neo-Nazism in particular, and racial supremacism in general, are beyond the pale, full stop.

Conversely, we can all agree that the type of multi-ethnic "state nationalism" one sees in countries like the USA and Australia --- where all except a small minority of the population descends from immigrants --- is kosher.

But this is not a "binary state device" --- there are many gradations in between. There are national liberation movements arising in response to attempts at genocide (Zionism, to some degree; Armenian nationalism, again to some degree;...) or cultural obliteration (Tibetan nationalism). There are nationalisms founded on a joint cultural-religious heritage (again, Zionism and Armenian nationalism come to mind, but also Irish nationalism). There are linguistic separatisms; there are ethnic separatisms; and near the "unkosher" end of the scale you have racialism (still one notch removed from racism).

As if things aren't complicated enough, many linguistic or ethnic separatisms have moderate movements that strive for cultural autonomy rather than national separatism.

It would serve us well to use a few bits of grayscale here, rather than 1-bit black and white.

710 gman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:23:31am

re: #702 Syrah

That was awesome. I will begin referring any raving Yair- like globsters to your post when they start showing symptoms.

Charles, we're ready for round 2 of this thread. Jeppo, send in the clowns!

711 EE  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:38:16am

The European Odin's Cross movement
(1) is a European white power movement akin to the Ku Klux Klan (it uses a similar symbol that the Klan has used) that likely will have an agenda involving ethnic cleansing, including massacre or expulsion or some combination of these involving terrorism; the target of the ethnic cleansing will be non-whites and infidels;
(2) envisions a Niewe Ordening, a New Order, which will likely involve a fascist state;
(3) recruits people by being anti-American.

On this last point, the anti-Americanism, look carefully at the poster showing the rat with the slogan Bienvenue Aux Ennemis De L'Europe (Welcome to the Enemies of Europe), and what is being smashed: the Statue of Liberty (American values are the enemy); McDonalds (American influence is the enemy); a Disney-type (?) character (? Donald's Uncle Scrooge McDuck?)with a top hat (capitalism is the enemy); a basketball board (American culture is the enemy). If you look over the drawings of the enemy, there is nothing there except things American. So it is obvious that recruiting is being done with the help of anti-Americanism.

Americans should have no part of this neo-Nazi crowd. No bund with Americans should happen. Eventually, if these neo-Nazis gain some power in Europe, there will remain the possibility of America's going to war against them. There can be a two front war, against the radical Islamists, as well as against the neo-Nazis.

712 gman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:40:41am

re: #709 Former Belgian

re: #702 Syrah

re: #634 bottehond

I have tried to convey with strong words that America is viscerally and implacably allergic to ethnic nationalism of any kind.

Ethnic nationalism negates the very essence of who and what we are as a people.
.

I think you are treading on thin ice here, as well as in "false dichotomy" territory. By your definition read literally, Zionism would be off-limits as well. (Many

We can all agree that neo-Nazism in particular, and racial supremacism in general, are beyond the pale, full stop.

Conversely, we can all agree that the type of multi-ethnic "state nationalism" one sees in countries like the USA and Australia --- where all except a small minority of the population descends from immigrants --- is kosher.

But this is not a "binary state device" --- there are many gradations in between. There are national liberation movements arising in response to attempts at genocide (Zionism, to some degree; Armenian nationalism, again to some degree;...) or cultural obliteration (Tibetan nationalism). There are nationalisms founded on a joint cultural-religious heritage (again, Zionism and Armenian nationalism come to mind, but also Irish nationalism). There are linguistic separatisms; there are ethnic separatisms; and near the "unkosher" end of the scale you have racialism (still one notch removed from racism).

As if things aren't complicated enough, many linguistic or ethnic separatisms have moderate movements that strive for cultural autonomy rather than national separatism.

It would serve us well to use a few bits of grayscale here, rather than 1-bit black and white.

Just remember, people are people are people no matter where they live. We should look out after each other, not just our "own kind." However, should nations help other groups or nations preserve their own ethnic identity, when that identity is narrowly defined and detrimental to others? The answer is no, and I think Syrah #702 spelled it out for you quite well already.

713 EE  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:47:41am

The resurgence of European Nazism is an opportunistic effort based on the notion that if America is absorbed in the war against radical Islamism, then it cannot also fight against resurgent European Nazism. I think that that is a false assumption. America can and will fight against the resurgence of European Nazism, regardless of the war against radical Islamism.

714 gman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:52:25am

re: #711 EE


and what is being smashed: the Statue of Liberty (American values are the enemy); McDonalds (American influence is the enemy); a Disney-type (?) character (? Donald's Uncle Scrooge McDuck?)with a top hat (capitalism is the enemy); a basketball board (American culture is the enemy)

This is so f***ing ironic that it's painful. Again, the result of brainwashing of Europeans by state owned or controlled media to further the interests of the
welfare state.

The funny thing is what do Europeans do for guilty pleasures. They watch American TV shows. They eat at fast food restaurants. Finally, they enjoy a variety of choices in their supermarkets because of capitalism.

715 EE  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 8:59:09am

I don't agree that nationalism is passe.

But a nationalism based on race is in the dust bin of history, along with the "Aryan" racist Nazis who spewed it in Hitler's time. And a hyper-nationalism that is the likely agenda of neo-Nazis, who will likely be engaged in ethnic cleansing of the massacre-and-expulsion type, along with terroristic ethnic cleansing, with the victims being non-white and infidels, is also obsolete.

The Nazis have a bad history. And that has to be taken into account when considering what their ideological heirs are up to.

716 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 9:07:42am

re: #704 guftafs


You disapprove of him letting Fjordman post? The fact that you appear to think in strong Us/Them terms does not mean everybody alese with good rational capacities shares your terms.I wonder what Voltaire would have to say about that?


re: #282 oslogin


Hans Jansen, one of the rare Arabists, was present at the conferences Bat Ye Or writes about. He says her book is very well documented. I know Hans Jansens' works very good, he is an excellent scientist too, with numerous publcations. What stature can you show me that you know better than Bat Ye Or, Oriana, Daniël Pipes, Hans Jansen and Spencer? Are you by any chance a sympathizer to AFA, AntiFa or an organization like that? I think you are downright manipulating information to make your own "theories" fit. You made it clear in your post: you suggest there is a moderate islam. Is there? There isn't. You seem to miss the fact that the muslimworld is being re- islamized itself. I bet you think islam is no problem in Europe, except for some abberations. Therefore Bat Ye Or can not be right in your views. I know who's judgement I'd trust if I have to choose between you and Bat Ye Or, dude. BTW: you must be so happy with this controversy between LGF and some european islam- critics, aren't you. I am very curious about your background, dude. I smell something funny in the kingdom of Norway. Has nothing to do with you, I'm sure.

717 EE  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 9:17:53am

re: #709 Former Belgian

re: #702 Syrah

re: #634 bottehond

I have tried to convey with strong words that America is viscerally and implacably allergic to ethnic nationalism of any kind.

Ethnic nationalism negates the very essence of who and what we are as a people.
.

I think you are treading on thin ice here, as well as in "false dichotomy" territory. By your definition read literally, Zionism would be off-limits as well. (Many

We can all agree that neo-Nazism in particular, and racial supremacism in general, are beyond the pale, full stop.

Conversely, we can all agree that the type of multi-ethnic "state nationalism" one sees in countries like the USA and Australia --- where all except a small minority of the population descends from immigrants --- is kosher.

But this is not a "binary state device" --- there are many gradations in between. There are national liberation movements arising in response to attempts at genocide (Zionism, to some degree; Armenian nationalism, again to some degree;...) or cultural obliteration (Tibetan nationalism). There are nationalisms founded on a joint cultural-religious heritage (again, Zionism and Armenian nationalism come to mind, but also Irish nationalism). There are linguistic separatisms; there are ethnic separatisms; and near the "unkosher" end of the scale you have racialism (still one notch removed from racism).

As if things aren't complicated enough, many linguistic or ethnic separatisms have moderate movements that strive for cultural autonomy rather than national separatism.

It would serve us well to use a few bits of grayscale here, rather than 1-bit black and white.

What Former Belgian says in #709 makes sense to me. We should not make this a case of the fallacy of the excluded middle, a black-white matter, a false dilemma. It should not be a choice between no ethnic nationalism ever, or the Nazi Aryan Racist hyper-nationalism.
It's not a binary or bipolar choice, or it shouldn't be. But at the fringes are the Nazis, and they are beyond the pale; they should not be allies or ours.

718 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 9:27:24am

re: #702 Syrah


There is no third way.
There will be no compromise
.

Truly excellent post.

By the way: "Third position" is the name of a nazi group in Italy.
(yes, I know that it meant a different "third" way: they meant another "way", other than capitalism or socialism, but it is interesting to notice that the same language keeps coming back, in a way or another !)

719 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 9:28:31am

re: #713 EE

Sustain your theory. Big words, where's the analysis?

720 Former Belgian  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 9:37:32am

re: #717 EE

[...]We should not make this a case of the fallacy of the excluded middle, a black-white matter, a false dilemma. It should not be a choice between no ethnic nationalism ever, or the Nazi Aryan Racist hyper-nationalism.
It's not a binary or bipolar choice, or it shouldn't be. But at the fringes are the Nazis, and they are beyond the pale; they should not be allies or ours.

I make the exact same point to "nuance" mongers. That you have an 8-bit grayscale does not imply that there are no things near the bright white or midnight black ends of the scale.

721 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 9:42:53am

If we could fight in Europe, Africa and the Pacific simultaneously 65 years ago, we can fight simultaneously in Europe and the Middle East today. It would mean, like it did then, re-instituting the draft and placing our economy on a wartime footing, but if it came down to national necessity, it would be done, and we would unite as a country around that common purpose, just as we did then. And it would be brutal - as brutal as it was 65 years ago, and much less discriminatory than our present efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan are. Fascists, both Islamo- and otherwise, be forewarned. If you persist in sowing the racist and theocratic totalitarian winds, it will be a cleansing whirlwind that you will surely reap.

722 bottehond  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:12:21am

re: #721 Salamantis

There is a national necessity for the States to strongly support anti- islamization movements in Europe. Their gouvenments don't. Islamo- fascism is facilitated by our gouvernments. The reason for this support is the same as the support for the Afghan government. Fighting islamo- fascism is an international issue, since it has nothing to do with a war between countries. It is the ummah against the Free World. I appreciate your enthousiasm.

723 Salamantis  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:32:36am

When racist and fascist elements cynically abuse the wedge issue of Islamofascism as a lever with which to pry themselves into power and perpetrate racist and fascist agendas, while pretending to embrace Israel at the same time that their fellow-travelers (see David Duke proudly wearing his Odin's Cross shirt with EURO printed underneath) still attend and address Holocaust denial conferences in Tehran, they make themselves our mortal enemies, no less so than the Caliphate. Taqiyyah is taqiyyah, and its practice is obvious, whether it is engaged in by Islamofascists, or European racist fascists.

724 EE  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 10:58:13am

re: #720 Former Belgian

re: #717 EE

[...]We should not make this a case of the fallacy of the excluded middle, a black-white matter, a false dilemma. It should not be a choice between no ethnic nationalism ever, or the Nazi Aryan Racist hyper-nationalism.
It's not a binary or bipolar choice, or it shouldn't be. But at the fringes are the Nazis, and they are beyond the pale; they should not be allies or ours.

I make the exact same point to "nuance" mongers. That you have an 8-bit grayscale does not imply that there are no things near the bright white or midnight black ends of the scale.

What you are saying makes a great deal of sense.

725 EE  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 11:15:55am

re: #719 bottehond

re: #713 EE

Sustain your theory. Big words, where's the analysis?

What exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with the opinion that the US could fight both against radical Islamism and the resurgence of European Nazism? Or do you think that the European neo-Nazis are stupid or morally above the idea of taking advantage of an opportunity to resurge while the US is involved in a different fight?

Do you disagree with a model of US power as being capable of fighting a two-front war, against both the White Fascist Supremacists and the Islamist Fascist Supremacists, the racist supremacists and the religionist supremacists? Do you think that the US is really so weak?

Or do you have a model of the European neo-Nazis as being extremely stupid and incapable of taking advantage of the opportunity afforded by America's attention to the war against radical Islamism? Or do you have a model of the European neo-Nazis as being so moral as to avoid taking advantage of a timing opportunity?

Which is your point? That the US is a paper tiger and incapable of fighting both the islamofascists and the racistfascists? Or that the European neo-Nazis are both extremely stupid and highly moral, so as to avoid taking advantage of our pre-occupation with the radical Islamists?

726 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 12:20:52pm

re: #725 EE

Perhaps you should ask these questions on the new thread Charles has provided. I'd like to see a response myself.

727 Highrise  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 4:59:11pm

re: #700 JHW


I sure hope your mother is ok! I'm ok but I live in the bay area California now. My parents are fine thankfully and they do live near the beach in the sw. My father has a generator and took it around various houses every few hours so people would not lose their food in their refrigerators and freezers. He helped an elderly guy get his generator working so he could stay warm. My mom went around to various neighbors letting them use her cell phone so they could contact family to come help them or to let them know they were alright.

Lewis county is nasty with flooding. Do you remember a yardbirds and sunbirds back in the day in Centralia? They would flood every year that finally yardbirds went out of business. My parents also mentioned that other businesses STILL have moved into that area and then on top of that, they built a whole area with houses in that flooding plain! There comes a time when weather is so predictable where it will do damage (such as flooding in lewis county) that it should be barred from having things built on it.

My parents used to have 20 acres up near the chehalis river in Rochester WA but sold it this year. We lived up on a hill. You may even know of the hill since you are a logger, Harris Road down Independence Road, they logged all around us and replanted. REALLY beautiful scenery but talk about isolated! Some days every year we'd be flooded in both ways on Independence and could not get out. My dad often had to cut trees that were laying in the road after a storm to get to work the days he could make it. Anyway, there was this house that was down independence next to the Chehalis river that flooded out every year and every year they kept putting it up on higher and higher stilts. They put it up so high that I used to call it the stilt house! hehe. They would put their car on the other side of the flood zone and use a boat to get to it and tie it off to a tree. Resourceful people they were.

728 Highrise  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 5:18:39pm

It's a bit hard to debate with people like etnorsktroll that continually post tripe like this on gov:


Many of the posters at LGF scream out "no fascists in my foxhole!", yet they have no problem aligning themselves with groups who have KNOWN anti-semites and rascists as leaders or among their groups. Who am I talking about, you ask?

Take a look at these:
Republican party:
Mitt Romney--this guy held his Presidential coming out party at the Henry Ford estate. Henry Ford is the clown who wrote "The International Jew". Ford was so anti-semitic that it isn't even funny (he even received an award from Hitler himself!). When Mitt was told about the significance of doing such a thing, he held it there anyway saying some nonsense about Ford's bold, innovative spirit being like America. This I'm being biased about this because I'm anti-mormon? Take a look at this Haaretz article for yourself: ([Link: www.haaretz.com...] I think Haaretz knows an anti-semite when they see one.

Ron Paul--Oh, Puuuleeeaze~! This guy is such an anti-semitic goof ball that it's absurd~! White power groups link to his sites and quote his stuff by the GOBS (do a search and you'll see).

Both of these people are running for the President of the United states...with their parties blessings~!

Democratci party:
Robert Byrd--Does his name ring a bell? It should: [Link: www.jewishworldreview.com...]
This guy pretended not to be a racist after the KKKlan fiasco in the 1940's, but his true colors showed at the end of his life. Mind you, the Democratic Southerners are not exactly a *small* group, you know.

Jesse Jackson--Remember 'Hymie town'? [Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
I do. Please note that Jesse doesn't have just a few followers in America. He ran for President once~!


Now, I've heard Charles absolutely BLAST Ron Paul for being an anti-Semite before (good for him~!), but I've never seen other posters at LGF start to take the Republican party to task for having someone like Ron Paul running with the GOP's blessing for POTUS.
Not one.
The Democrats are even worse.
I wonder why the AMERICAN political parties get a pass among the Americans posters at LGF but the European parties who are trying to reform themselves are called liars...or worse.
I wonder how that works in their minds?
For the record, Charles hasn't weighed in on this so I don't know if he has condemned the American parties for having fascists and racists among it's leaders and followers.
~Norsk Troll

and this..hilarious!

Ron Paul isn't running with the GOP's blessings?

Who do you think you're kidding, Ed?

Not me.

If you don't have the GOP's support, there are all kinds of things they can do to hinder you from running: refusing to help you get funding, refusing to allow you to participate in the debates, running your down at news conferences.

Nah.

Don't tell me that Paul doesn't that the GOP's blessings. That a lot of horse hockey and, if you're an American, you know it.

~Norsk Troll

Yeah ron paul is REALLY "supported" by the GOP. /rolls eyes

It's things like this posted over there by him makes me see he doesn't want to get it (or isn't reading the material) when he makes such a silly comparison that has been discussed here and also seems to think ron paul is supported by the gop!

729 gman  Sun, Dec 9, 2007 7:30:35pm

re: #728 Highrise

etNorskTroll has been trying so hard to make his square peg fit into the circular hole that his square peg has finally splintered into pieces. Now, he is shoving the splinters into the circular hole like a raving madman, refusing to believe that his paradigm has been shattered.


This entry has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

log in
Name:
Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? My Account Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► LGF Hits

► Slideshows

► Resources

► Never Forget

► Statistics

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

► News/Opinion

  • Loading...