What Killed Bhutto?

Islam.

Well, however she was killed, AQ was successful in ending her life. Now Pakistan seems to be on the brink.

This will only feed the conspiracy theories and fuel more paranoia.

Give 'em a nuke.

Yesterday, reports were quite specific about her cause of death - including gunshot wounds to the head that irreperably damaged her spine. Now, we're getting a completely different set of reports with a completely different cause of death.

We appear to know, I wont say definitely because witnesses aren't the best guide, there was gunfire and an explosion. Does it matter whether it was the gunfire or the explosion that killed Bhutto? The Islamists are busy taking credit for the attack.

The gunfire angle would, however, bolster possible theories that there were military snipers or others in the crowd that fired the fatal shot, but if she was killed by the skull fracture, then it's more likely that it was the bomb that did the fatal act.

It was bad falafel.

expect the troofers to pick up on this one. This is just ripe for a stupid conspiracy theory to spring up.

Shrapnel could have fractured her skull.

Conspiracy theory in 3, 2, 1...

re: #1 Sharmuta

Sharmuta got it right.

re: #1 Sharmuta

What Killed Bhutto?

Islam.

Irregardless, that is the bottom line. Isn't it?

Nuff said.

The salmon mouse.

It was bad falafel, I tell you. Accidental food poisoning is actually very common, though tragic. It also frequently causes undiagnosed (or misdiognosed) skull fractures.

You can't really blame celeberatory fireworks and gunfire as the cause of food-borne illness.

/ronpaul!/

re: #1 Sharmuta

What Killed Bhutto?

Islam.

Zactly.

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

The salmon mouse.

Salmon Mousse?

By the time Pakistani conspiracy theorists get finished with this, there will be no doubt that she was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Does it really matter in the long run what killed her? Fact of the matter is that she is dead and the region is now even more volatile than it was before she died. AQ is taking the credit for the act. Even if she wasn't hit by bullets or shrapnel, then AQ is still responsible because they were attempting a hit on her. Whether or not she dies from bullets or shrapnel is moot. She is dead and at the hands of AQ. They achieved their purpose and to them that's all that matters.

re: #14 coquimbojoe

re: #1 Sharmuta

What Killed Bhutto?

Islam.

Zactly.

Even more zactly would be, what is islam?

re: #11 tripster

It is the bottom line. The followers of islam vowed to kill her, and they succeeded.

re: #16 gymnast

By the time Pakistani conspiracy theorists get finished with this,
there will be no doubt that she was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Were the shots fired from a grassy knoll?

What is the point of this lie?...it seems so childish.

It was the falafel!

Islam , destroyer of civilizations, coming to a country near you.

re: #2 Honorary Yooper

Well, however she was killed, AQ was successful in ending her life. Now Pakistan seems to be on the brink.

To use an inappropriately comic reference, I'm reminded of the horse killed in the Dean's office in Animal House. They didn't shoot the beast, but it died of fright from the fake gunshot.

Nonetheless, they were responsible for its death.

re: #15 coquimbojoe

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

The salmon mouse.

Salmon Mousse?

That's SIR Salmon Mousse.

re: #15 coquimbojoe

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

The salmon mouse.

Salmon Mousse?

Ahh..Mousse.

Thanks for fixing my spellin.

I predict Pakistan calms down after a few days seething.

Col Mustard, in the conservatory, with the candlestick.

Musharraf’s Political Future Appears Troubled

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

re: #16 gymnast

By the time Pakistani conspiracy theorists get finished with this, there will be no doubt that she was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Like I said in the previous thread -

This is going to have as many conspiracy theories as the Kennedy assassination. Wait till Oliver Stone decides to make a movie about it.

Seriously, could this mean that it was an inside job? Someone in her car killed her in case the main attack failed?

re: #29 Silhouette

Ahmed, in the village square, with the falafel...

Is she still dead?

Evil thrives amidst chaos, paranoia, lies, ignorance and fear...and Pakistan has all of these in abundance.

re: #1 Sharmuta

Thank you for writing that; I was going to write that cause as well.

re: #33 itellu3times

Is she still dead?

Yes. You must be thinking of Generalissimo Francisco Franco.

and how, now can anything be confirmed, (not that it matters, AQ wanted to do it, they tried before, they tried agan and she is dead now) but, what with the people mobbing the hospital and taking the casket, (i assume the body was in it) and parading it thru the streets, with it bouncing and bumping all about,

really, the way the ROP treats is't dead is just as bad as they treat the living.

isn't the funeral today with burial as well?

re: #33 itellu3times

Is she still dead?

Poor taste.

re: #29 Silhouette

Col Mustard, in the conservatory, with the candlestick.

Why is it always Col. Mustard?

I was watching the news about this, and she was up speaking about how a true muslim would not hurt her, because islam prohibits violence against women and they would burn in hell for doing so.

I don't know if she really believed that, or perhaps trying to make a point that the people who would hurt her were not true muslims, or just trying to making the point that yes, these are muslims, and they don't give a damn if she is a woman or not, they will kill who they want. I'm leaning more towards the third choice.

Rageboy done done it!

re: #39 newsjunkie_ky

re: #29 Silhouette

Col Mustard, in the conservatory, with the candlestick.

Why is it always Col. Mustard?

Because as a military member, he represents the Bu$hitlerburton military industrial KKKomplex!

/in full moonbat mode today, sorry/

Waiting for the grassy knoll angle.

A skull fracture is more likely secondary to a fall than a direct bomb blast, though a fall or other impact certainly could happen as a result of a bomb blast.

Regardless, I would take whatever report is coming out of Pakistan with a grain of salt. If indeed was injured because of security efforts to save her life, I would expect that detail to be covered up.

An autopsy wouldn't (by itself) be able to resolve that difference; that would take corroboration with eyewitnesses or footage of the incident.

Iran kills our troops...and is rewarded...

TEHRAN, Dec. 28 Iraqi oil officials and business leaders are in Iran for a weeklong dialogue on future cooperation as cross-country oil trade continues.

Iran and Iraq are in the last stages of moving forward on a pipeline sending crude from Iraq to Iranian refineries and potentially a pipeline sending fuel back to Iraq.

[Link: www.earthtimes.org...]

Yesterday CNN played footage from some Pakistani TV station -- they were showing what appeared to be a gun lying on the ground. The Pakistani announcers were reporting that this "was the gun that shot Benazir Bhutto." Although, of course, without forensic evidence that's debatable -- but, nonetheless, they did broadcast pictures of a gun...(Actually, I don't think the truth matters one whit in Pakistan, and that may be due to the RoP...it's really quite disgusting their seemingly ready acceptance of lies...)

..and no autopsies - how absurd. I believe, correct me if wrong, even in the Jewish faith, when homicide is suspected, an autopsy is permitted to determine cause of death.

islam is the only conspiracy I need. islam- that tells women to stay shut up in purdah, that tells a woman she is nothing but a burden to her father to be dumped onto a husband, that tells a woman her worth is in how many sons she bears, that her actions bring shame on her family. islam killed this woman- she shamed them. This was their way to claim back their so-called honor.

Whatever you do, don't go over to HuffPo or ThinkProgress and read any of the Bhutto related threads. The brain-twisted little freaks who live in these cesspools are at their very worst today.

What a crock!

They're trying to defer the blame away from the splodeydope Islamist.

First they blamed Musharraf
Next they blamed Bhutto's poor security
Oh ... and don't forget, they had to blame the US Administration in this mix
Then they blamed Bhutto, for being in her country to begion with
Now they're blaming her security forces for slamming her head on the car roof.

ANYTHING, anything but blaming the Islamofascists from the religion of pieces.

Bizarre.
Anyway considering that within 3 months they had attempted to kill her in Karachi and killed 158 people it is hard to think that she thought they wouldn't kill her therefore so I think it is the second choice in Boothill 40's comment.

re: #47 unrealizedviewpoint

That answers my question about autopsies.

BTW, has Ann Curry said "I told you so" yet?

She was no Saint, but she will be one now. The praises coming in are pretty amazing. She was the answer to all that ailed Pakistan? I do not think so. Based on her past performances, she would have picked up where she left off...looting the treasury, enriching herself and trying to maintain the status quo. She was not going to come into Pakistan and end the problems in the tribal areas. Musharrif is a much stronger and capable ruler. I do not like dealing with dictators, but he is still a better option than any other person over there. Better than Bhutto would have been and certainly better than some Pashtuni Taliban asshole...

re: #45 storagemanager

Savage always said that they might unite and the Iraq war might prove to be the biggest military blunder ever made.

Reading the various accounts, I note sadly that there was no autopsy performed on Bhutto. Islam frowns on autopsies, but this is a major mistake, that is likely to cause problems.

One of the bigger reasons behind the ongoing JFK conspiracy mess is that the autopsy was performed by an inexperienced hospital pathologist who was essentially drafted into service; rather than a forensic pathologist.

He messed it up in a number of ways, leading to confusion about bullet trajectories, etc.

re: #33 itellu3times

Is she still dead?

You joke, but when I opened the news this morning, there is a big headline "Benezir Lives!". Of course, they meant her spirit and mission will go on, but for a second I thought they meant literally alive, and the "reports of her death were greatly exaggerated."

but there will be no autopsy will there? that is not permitted is it? i don't know

re: #44 looking closely

A skull fracture is more likely secondary to a fall than a direct bomb blast, though a fall or other impact certainly could happen as a result of a bomb blast.

Regardless, I would take whatever report is coming out of Pakistan with a grain of salt. If indeed was injured because of security efforts to save her life, I would expect that detail to be covered up.

An autopsy wouldn't (by itself) be able to resolve that difference; that would take corroboration with eyewitnesses or footage of the incident.

re: #47 unrealizedviewpoint

..and no autopsies - how absurd. I believe, correct me if wrong, even in the Jewish faith, when homicide is suspected, an autopsy is permitted to determine cause of death.

An autopsy is allowed in Judaism when it can help save other lives. Certainly, finding a killer can save other lives, as can determining the effects of a disease, etc. An autopsy would likely be allowed in a case like this.

However, when in doubt, consult a rabbi.

re: #47 unrealizedviewpoint

..and no autopsies - how absurd. I believe, correct me if wrong, even in the Jewish faith, when homicide is suspected, an autopsy is permitted to determine cause of death.

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

Autopsy
By Ariel Scheib

Some scholars judge that autopsy should be strictly forbidden. Jewish law forbids the despoliation of a body once it is deceased, to provide the body with the utmost respect and honor. If a body undergoes mutilating examination in an autopsy, many rabbis deem this practice makes the body impure.

Nevertheless, other rabbinic scholars argue that saving and preserving lives is one of the highest commandments in the Torah. If physicians can utilize a deceased body to uncover medical enigmas, it could prevent unnecessary deaths. These rabbis argue that performing autopsies benefit of the living.

In the early 1950s, Israeli law bestowed upon doctors a great deal of leeway when determining the permissibility of performing an autopsy. However, in 1980, many Orthodox communities in Israel were disturbed by the abuse of autopsies being performed. These communities had the law modified to make performing autopsies more difficult. Unless essential medical concern, doctors have to receive special consent from the deceased family to perform an autopsy. In the cases of a homicide, autopsies are acceptable. If an autopsy is performed, a body must still be buried with all its parts according to Jewish law, and within three days.

re: #39 newsjunkie_ky

re: #29 Silhouette

Col Mustard, in the conservatory, with the candlestick.

Why is it always Col. Mustard?

He was a murdering machine.

re: #50 lanmaster
Product liability suit against Land Rover coming up.

One other thing,

Sooner or later, there will emerge an "official" story about what happened, but if there was no autopsy to properly document her injuries than *ANY* theory about what killed her is no better than rank speculation.

Things may not have happened quite the way observers think (ie was she shot, or was she hit by shrapnel? If she was shot, was it that shot that killed her, or something else, etc).

Again, BIG mistake here.

Oh boy! Now the Pakastanis have their own "Grassy Knoll" controversy to deal with over the next few decades.

No autopsies - Just another example of 7th century backward madness.

re: #1 Sharmuta

What Killed Bhutto?

Islam.

Islam killed Bhutto for sure.
However to go one step further:
Islam and all who protect it, sanitize it and lie for it both directly and indirectly!

Now we have a thread on the speculations as to how exactly she met her death? In the mean time, Rome burns while the lies are consuming us all.

She is dead! I will repeat:
Islam killed Bhutto for sure. Islam and all who protect it, sanitize, insulate and lie for it both directly and indirectly!

Until those who ---> protect, sanitize, insulate and lie for the animals of the RoP both directly and indirectly are held accountable we are all screwed the big one.

Furthermore all the words of condemnation from everywhere mean nothing to me at all. For from where I sit, some of those who are condemning are also DOING THE FEEDING. (directly and indirectly)

Who cares exactly how she died or even who did it for the culture which has protected these animals killed her. Period.

It was clearly Mitch Rapp...

re: #1 Sharmuta

What Killed Bhutto?

Islam.

gotta be among the best first posts ever

It makes sense considering that you'd have to be a good shot to hit someone in the neck for the unexpected action of someone sticking their head up through a car roof.

it sounds like it would hurt more.

Surely, with so many people out to see a prominent fiugre, someone must have images (video or photographs) showing the sequence of events. Given time, they will surface.

re: #39 newsjunkie_ky

Why is it always Col. Mustard?

You know, I was thinking that as I wrote it.

Is it because his name was the most recognizable as being from Clue? I would think Mrs. Peacock and Professor Plum would stand out as well.

The explanation answers the charge that Mushariff did not give her a car capable of protecting her from bullets and bombs.

re: #55 GreenSoccer

I know I have heard Savage say that but I still think that if we fought this war the way we fought World War II, we would prove to these monsters that we Are NOT a paper tiger...

re: #2 Honorary Yooper

Say, Yooper - by any chance were you in Vegas about 8 weeks ago? More specifically, were you at Caesar's Palace playing let-it-ride poker with a drunk Israeli and loudly bashing lefties? Ah, good times :)

Just had a little light bulb go off in my head when I read your lizard name.

/if that wasn't you forgive my confusion...

And the pundits are predicting civil war in Pakistan.
But how will we be able to tell the difference?

It might be possible to accurately ascertain what happened to Bhutto in complete collation of her medical records at the time of her hospitalization, depending on what they showed.

But that makes a number of assumptions, including that the documented reports are accurate, and that she actually had a proper medical examination. (It also assumes that her anti-mortem exams were conclusive. . .they may not be).

These are actually pretty significant assumptions. In crises, and particularly when highly important (VIP) patients are involved, sometimes things aren't done "by the book" and shortcuts are taken. Its possible, for example, that Bhutto never had a head-to-toe examination in her post-injury medical treatment. I also can't speak to the level of medical documentation that occurs in Pakistan, but that would be an issue too.

In case this important, not only would a complete autopsy be essential, but documentary evidence (eg photographs, histologic sections of tissue, any present foreign objects) also ought to be collected to support the conclusion of the prosector.

In particular, its not clear to me that anyone can draw a definitive conclusion about the etiology of her alleged skull fracture short of examining her skull. EG, was it a fall, or was it a projectile that caused the fracture? Skull fractures by themselves aren't necessarily fatal. . .its the underlying brain injury that is. So now you need to examine the brain too, etc.

re: #69 friarstale

Thanks.

re: #74 tfc3rid

I know I have heard Savage say that but I still think that if we fought this war the way we fought World War II,

Problem is the Democraps won't let us fight a war that way. They seem to spend a lot of time aiding and abetting the enemy instead of waging all out war on them. George W. Bush is the enemy, not Al Queada or Islamofascism.

The "media fog" is not confined to spectacular events. Anyone who has ever been slightly involved in events covered by the media is usually shocked by the resulting coverage on air or in the press.

The shots fired just before the explosion probably came from members of the security forces and were likely directed at the bomber. They may even have set off the bomb.

Is Rage Boy on vacation?

re: #72 Silhouette

re: #39 newsjunkie_ky

Why is it always Col. Mustard?

You know, I was thinking that as I wrote it.

Is it because his name was the most recognizable as being from Clue? I would think Mrs. Peacock and Professor Plum would stand out as well.

Also there is the "Mean Mr. Mustard" line in the Beatles song -- a whole generation grew up associating the name "Mustard" with cruelty.

I blame Theresa Heinz.

re: #71 ronaldusmagnus

Surely, with so many people out to see a prominent fiugre, someone must have images (video or photographs) showing the sequence of events. Given time, they will surface.

Probably. But do you think that the Rage Boys of the world will care? Muhammed al-Dura, anybody?

I'm not sure who introduced this meme into the thought-stream, or what he had to gain by muddying the waters in this way, but I think that in (ahem) certain societies, a semi-plausible face-saving lie will trump truth any day. Which Official Version ends up getting stamped "truth" will likely give an insight into whom which story benefits.

re: #82 Lucius Septimius

I blame Theresa Heinz.

Don't you mean Terazzza Heinz?

Get the MythBusters guys to test whether one can get a skull fracture from being dragged down from a sunroof.

My bet is that Myth would be BUSTED!

Could not the explosion of the blast from the bomb thrown her into something that she could have hit her head on hard enough to cause the skull fracture.

Yesterday there were the still frames from Getty Images. His camera could shoot multiple frames per second (i'm assuming it's wasn't digital). You get a whole sequence of shots. ( a front view). Now the Pakistani Interior Ministry has released new footage (videotape with sound) of the event. If Bhutto died of shrapnel wounds, there would have been a bomb blast. Bhutto (in the newly released tape) is "down", then comes the fire/explosion from the suicide bomber. There is also the doctor who was interviewed at the hospital who described two bullet wounds (one entered her neck, the other her shoulder which exited through her chest). According to the doctor, it was the bullet which hit her spinal cord which killed Bhutto. All of this testimony (and other eye witness accounts) would have to be over turned to accept this latest theory that Bhutto died by striking her head. And why would all the statements, evidence suddenly change? I think it's pretty obvious. With the "striking her head" theory, Musharraf gets to blame Benazir Bhutto's body guards...they were "at fault" for pulling her into the vehicle (?) causing her to strike her head. (Also, btw, according to other accounts body guards were not sitting beside Bhutto in the car). And, then, of course, ruling out bullets or shrapnel gets Musharraf off the hook in turns of "he didn't provide sufficient protection" for Bhutto. (the head-striking theory is a bit too politically convenient/expedient, imo).

Ahhh... ):

re: #85 paybacktime

Get the MythBusters guys to test whether one can get a skull fracture from being dragged down from a sunroof.

My bet is that Myth would be BUSTED!

I doubt it.

I know its possible for an adult to sustain a skull fracture from a standing fall. And I'm sure its possible for an adult to sustain a fatal skull fracture from an unlucky fall onto a suitably pointy object.

re: #87 J.S.

If Bhutto died of shrapnel wounds, there would have been a bomb blast.

To be Devil's advocate, not necessarily.

Shrapnel can be secondarily created from a gunshot impacts, and could even cause fatal injury (eg from a neck wound).

But I agree with everything else you are saying.

This whole thing stinks of political manipulation. Without an objective documented autopsy, I don't know how anyone can be definitive about what happened.

My guess is that she was shot by someone with a rifle on a high floor of the Rawalpindi Madrassa Book Depository.

Maybe Ibrahim Zapruder has vidoes of the actual event.

re: #72 Silhouette

re: #39 newsjunkie_ky

Why is it always Col. Mustard?

You know, I was thinking that as I wrote it.

Is it because his name was the most recognizable as being from Clue? I would think Mrs. Peacock and Professor Plum would stand out as well.

I always though that Col. Mustard did it in the Study with Miss Scarlet!

There was no autopsy. That, to me, points to Musharraf.

New Delhi: Mystery shrouds the death of former Pakistan prime minister Benazir Bhutto. In an explosive revelation, Pakistan's Interior Minister Hamid Nawaz on Friday said that Bhutto did not die of bullet wounds.

Nawaz said that Bhutto died from a head injury. At least seven doctors from the Rawalpindi General Hospital – where the leader was rushed immediately after the attack – say there were no bullet marks on Bhutto's body.

The doctors have submitted a report to the Pakistan government in which they say that no post-mortem was performed on Bhutto’s body and they had not received any instructions to perform one.

“The report says she had head injuries – an irregular patch – and the X-ray doesn’t show any bullet in the head. So it was probably the shrapnel or any other thing has struck her in her said. That damaged her brain, causing it to ooze and her death. The report categorically ssyas there’s no wound other than that,” Nawaz told a Pakistani news channel.

Government sources say there will be an investigation to determine why no autopsy was conducted.
According to agency reports doctors at the Rawalpindi General Hospital tried desperately for 41 minutes to revive former prime minister Bhutto after she was shot but failed in their efforts.
Bhutto was declared dead 41 minutes after she was brought the hospital's emergency department at 1735 hrs (local time) (1805 hrs IST) with open wounds on her left temporal bone from which "brain matter was exuding", the report said.
It said Bhutto was not breathing at the time and her pulse and blood pressure "were not recordable".
IANS adds: According to the report, "immediate resuscitation (process) was started" and she was taken to the operation theatre where she was attended by a team of doctors headed by Musaddiq Khan, principal of the Rawalpindi Medical College, Dawn reported Friday.
"Left antrolateral thoracotomy for open cardiac massage was performed," the hospital report said, adding: "In spite of all the possible measures she could not be revived and (was) declared dead at 1816 hrs IST (6.16 p.m.)."
An autopsy was not carried out at the hospital "because the district administration and police had not requested the hospital authorities (for this)", the report said.
Bhutto was shot not far from where Pakistan's first prime minister Liaquat Ali Khan was killed by an assassin's bullet on Oct 16, 1951.

re: #92 RightOnTheLeftCoast

re: #72 Silhouette

re: #39 newsjunkie_ky

Why is it always Col. Mustard?

You know, I was thinking that as I wrote it.
Is it because his name was the most recognizable as being from Clue? I would think Mrs. Peacock and Professor Plum would stand out as well.

I always though thought that Col. Mustard did it in the Study with Miss Scarlet!

PIMF IIUI

re: #89 looking closely

looking closely, what is more likely?

An accidental skull fracture from banging against a car interior

OR

a trauma from a bomb blast that killed 20 people?

re: #82 Lucius Septimius

Also there is the "Mean Mr. Mustard" line in the Beatles song -- a whole generation grew up associating the name "Mustard" with cruelty.

In that case, "mean" meant stingy rather than cruel. It's British slang.

re: #1 Sharmuta

What Killed Bhutto?

Islam.

The Religion of pyrotechnics

Oops. 'bulllets' should be 'bullets'.

Unless Islamic bulllets have an extra 'l' for 'love'.

Arlen Specter has just issued a report claiming she and the twenty bystanders were killed by a single bullet.

re: #90 looking closely

Agreed -- without any forensic investigative work, everybody's left guessing... The aggravating thing, though, is that from the early reports yesterday there did appear to be numerous leads and avenues to explore...with preliminary indications of Bhutto having died from gunshot wounds. (Even the skull fracture scenario -- typically to succumb from the brain trauma takes hours/days -- why they keep people with fractured skulls under observation in the hospital -- have to wait and see/brain swelling,etc -- but I'd read, from East India news reports, quotes from people in the ambulance who actually said she died en route to the hospital...again, more consistent with a fatal gunshot wound.) Anyway, I don't think Pakistani officials are all that concerned by discovering "the truth"...probably never find out what actually took place (other questions, of course, are -- was there more than one shooter? was the shooter on a motor bike? did one or more escape? was the shooter killed in the bomb blast? was the shooter also the suicide bomber? etc, etc, etc.)

re: #95 PayBackTime

re: #89 looking closely

looking closely, what is more likely?

An accidental skull fracture from banging against a car interior

OR

a trauma from a bomb blast that killed 20 people?

I can't answer that question without substantially more information about the specific circumstances, but I can tell you that a primary bomb blast (by itself) isn't likely to cause a skull fracture.

Much more importantly, those aren't nearly the only two options, and answering which is more likely wouldn't actually settle anything.

So far we've seen conflicting accounts mentioning: Death by skull fracture, death by gunshot wound, death by shrapnel. One eyewitness claims he saw her shot with his own eyes, another medical reports says she wasn't shot at all. One account says the bomber was the shooter, another claims it isn't so.

The whole thing is a clusterf@#k, and the BEST way to resolve what ACTUALLY killed Bhutto is by autopsy. . .something that would be REQUIRED BY LAW in most of the civilized world in a case of obvious homicide like this one.

So delicate Muslim sensibilities notwithstanding, why wasn't it done here? Did Bhutto's family object? Somehow I doubt it.

Furthermore, I should also point out that funeral notwithstanding its still NOT TOO LATE to do an autopsy. Obviously the information isn't going to be quite as good as if it had been done earlier, but basic issues like whether or not she was shot or hit by shrapnel could still be resolved, as well as whether or not a head injury was a likely primary cause of death.

Bhutto was declared dead 41 minutes after she was brought the hospital's emergency department at 1735 hrs (local time) (1805 hrs IST) with open wounds on her left temporal bone from which "brain matter was exuding", the report said.

So assuming this account is correct, that means she had an open skull fracture, and it killed her.

Its still not clear whether the fracture was caused by a fall, by bomb blast impact trauma (which could itself be a fall), by a bullet, or by shrapnel. An autopsy might help there (it might not), though it would certainly help to dispel wild theories about whether or not she was shot, whether or not she had a spine fracture, etc.

Also, (and this is speculative) assuming the eyewitness accounts of her being shot and bleeding are credible, its theoretically possible that she was shot AT, and in turn hit in the skull by a piece of shrapnel from a nearby bullet impact. A nicked scalp would bleed profusely, and assuming the blood dripped downwards, it could look like a neck wound to a third party observer, looking on from a distance, particularly during a chaotic incident.

re: #101 looking closely

Also note from NYnana's post, the quote: "with open wounds on her left temporal bone from which 'brain matter was exuding'" -- left temporal bone -- ie, the side of the head. So must have struck the side of her head, not the back of her head...if one were to believe the laughable "she died from a skull fracture"...(the last sentence also begins: "Bhutto was shot...") Also, yesterday when the doctor was interviewed, he spoke of 2 bullet wounds -- one struck her shoulder, exited her chest; the other bullet wound (the fatal one) entered her neck and exited her skull...left temporal bone...

re: #102 looking closely

btw, when everyone keeps referring to shrapnel (CNN explained this yesterday) they are referring to items (such as ball bearings) which are packed in suicide bomber vests. Thus you get flying metal parts after the detonation of the explosive charge. (Wiki has an item on shrapnel
which reads:

The Oxford English Dictionary documents that the term Shrapnel is often used to describe fragments or shot intentionally included in explosive devices, such as pipe casings, nails, or ball bearings.

For shells, bombs or other munitions, the technical term for these particles is fragments, splinters or shards, fragments being the preferred name in scientific documents on the subject.

Another term which can be used to describe a particle other than a bullet which causes a wound is "bomb fragment" or "bomb shard". These terms also include items which were not part of the original explosive device, but which are propelled as projectiles by the force of the explosive or impact.

I don't like the "blame the victim" mentality on some of these comments. I know we use humor on here a lot and I'm really hoping these disrespectful comments are an attempt at this. She wasn't perfect, but she stood up for what she believed in and that's more than a lot of us can say about ourselves. To make light of the fact that she was "out there" and willing to take the risks is in bad taste methinks.

re: #103 J.S.

re: #101 looking closely

Also note from NYnana's post, the quote: "with open wounds on her left temporal bone from which 'brain matter was exuding'" -- left temporal bone -- ie, the side of the head. So must have struck the side of her head, not the back of her head...if one were to believe the laughable "she died from a skull fracture"...(the last sentence also begins: "Bhutto was shot...") Also, yesterday when the doctor was interviewed, he spoke of 2 bullet wounds -- one struck her shoulder, exited her chest; the other bullet wound (the fatal one) entered her neck and exited her skull...left temporal bone...

As a point of clarification, the temporal bone is located roughly anatomically behind the ear and extends to the base of the skull.

A high-velocity bullet could certainly enter the posterior part of the neck and exit through the temporal bone causing an inconspicuous entrance wound that is covered by hair, but a potentially large gaping exit wound. In such a case attributing the death to a "skull fracture" would be exceptionally misleading, at best.

Also, just because this physician states that the wound(*S*?) were of the temporal bone, that doesn't mean its necessarily true, nor is his stated opinion about bullet trajectories necessarily correct. He could be right. . .but lots of physicians misjudge entrance and exit wounds, particularly ones that don't have lots of experience dealing with this issue. It's a notorious pitfall of forensic pathology.

In terms of "shrapnel" as you point out, that term could refer to either a piece of a bomb designed to cause injury (eg a ball- bearing like bit deliberately put into the bomb for that reason, or a casing fragment), or alternatively, a fragment of environmental material propelled by bomb forces that causes injury (eg a metal shard from an automobile). This starts to become semantic, but as I mentioned earlier, bullets (and not just bombs) can cause secondary shrapnel injuries.

Again, rather than engage in more speculation about this, a proper autopsy would address most of these issues defintively. The fact that one hasn't been done here borders on the criminal.

In the USA, any physician certifying a death by apparent homicide is required by law to notify the appropriate medical examiner's office or coroner about the finding. In a case like this that would be automatic, as would an autopsy.

The excuse that "nobody asked for one" is pretty damn feeble. Maybe in Pakistan that kind of thing holds up, but certainly not here.

re: #106 looking closely

There are a number of 3 d maps of the skull on the Internet -- take a look. Routinely the temporal area refers to that area which is on the side of the skull. There is a portion of the temporal bone which is referred to as the "base of the skull" -- but if the injury occurred to the back of the head -- (generally speaking) you're looking at the occipital area, not temporal area. But as to the actual location of the injury -- this is all conjecture again -- there's the ambiguity and overlap -- and to avoid this, normally you'd get diagrams of the areas, etc. But, obviously, this won't be happening any time soon -- thanks to its being Pakistan, etc.

But I think the key to remember is that the "she died of a skull fracture" is suspect (at best). It refutes (overturns) all that was said, witnessed, videotaped evidenced yesterday. And to make ludicrous claims makes Pakistan's Interior Ministry look all the more discreditable, suspect and which in turn only fuels yet more rumors.

re: #107 J.S.
With due respect, I don't need your coaching on anatomy. Diagrams are also not normally a part of an autopsy report, incidentally.

You might also want to re-read what I wrote above.

Again, a bullet entering the back of the NECK (or alternatively posterior skull if you prefer) might cause a nearly invisible entrance wound, but cause a disproportionately large and highly conspicuous EXIT injury to the temporal BONE.

To someone not savvy about entrance vs. exit wounds it would LOOK like the person was hit directly in temporal bone, even though that's not the primary injury site. In other words a gaping wound of the temporal bone DOES NOT necessarily mean the person was hit in the side of the head, get it?

If this is indeed what happened, (and the more info I see on this, the more plausible it seems) it could tie together some of the conflicting accounts (ie that some say she was shot in the neck and dropped before the blast, and others that there weren't any bullet wounds on the body).

Bottom line, a proper autopsy would likely answer all these questions, and the fact that one wasn't done here is highly problematic.

re: #108 looking closely

Wolf Blitzer just had in an expert on his program "The Situation Room" to review the "Bhutto assassination video" -- the expert looked at the video (provided by Pakistan today) frame by frame. The investigator says that a gun is clearly visible and that you can see the hand go up as a shot is fired. (The shooter is right behind the vehicle --very close range). The investigator also stated that there are 3 things which can be confirmed:
1) Shots were fired.
2) An explosion followed (creating shrapnel).
3) After the explosion, there are concussive forces -- implosive (which could have caused a head injury).

Blitzer notes (diplomatically, of course) that all 3 are possible causes of death. I say (given what we've seen from yesterday and today) -- most likely, it's Number 1.

eventually, in order to spin away from the root cause of the blast, I'm not suprised if the automotive industry will be put on trial for the fallout debris that actually killed her...not the "bomber" ...who is innocent in the big picture.

?
on a side note,
Will he get his 72 virgins for killing a woman ?

just sayin.

words from beyond the grave

A proper autopsy most likely would provide the needed answers. Yet there will still be those who would then believe the autopsy results were falsified. There is no way to quell speculation.

Apparently bomb vs bullet hypothesis has some significance in islamic afterlife
- If it is a bullet then she is a shaheed i.e. martyr and goes to heaven
- If a bomb or skull fracture from hitting the lever on the sunroof then the death is not so special since there were others killed along with her

The military is trying to deny her a place in islamic heaven it seems

re: #9 brinkley

Conspiracy theory in 3, 2, 1...

Grassy Knoll?

Bombshell: NY Sun claims Bhutto was shot five times by team of snipers

[Link: hotair.com...]

well IF I believed in martyr's I would have to rate her as a real one. Not like the blow up doll idiots that have been brainwashed into it.

The unsupported sniper stories don't help anything, just feed hysterical rumors. The video clearly shows a handgun being fired in her direction from a close range. Shots were fired close to her, aimed at her, followed immediately by an explosion. It is entirely possible she was killed just as the government has claimed - by blunt trauma to the skull by the effects of a close blast. Even at close range, with the surging people, the unsupported arm by a jacked-up guy who was also going to blow himself up, there is no guarantee the shooter would actually hit his target. That's why small arms training is heavy on supporting the hand that is holding the weapon - there's a lot of wobble, enough to miss surprisingly close targets. Just because the assassin intended to shoot her doesn't mean he accomplished it. He had a back up, a bomb, and regrettably, that worked.

"By the time Pakistani conspiracy theorists get finished with this, there will be no doubt that she was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald."

What? Oswald was Jewish? I mean, really, won't it ultimately have to be blamed on the nefarious Jooos?