Sorry - big ol' Civil Wars in Muslim countries can only happen when Americans are around.

I think it is.

The Telegraph is considering the possibility of civil war — in a country with about 100 nuclear weapons.

Worst possible outcome. It will be a nuclear Taliban if the Red Mosque folks get the street on their side.

Some of the attacks appear to be non-random - like the freeing of prisoners, the trains and stations burnt. If more attacks on transport infrastructure occur I would not be surprised.

/have they burnt down the KFC and the McDonald's yet?

What's so civil about war, anyway...

Musharif should have declared martial law last night.

Waiting for Dr. RuPaul to blame America for this as well in:

3, 2, 1, ...

re: #5 Thanos

/have they burnt down the KFC and the McDonald's yet?

Long live the Spork!

"She wrote a very moving autobiography which begins with the assassination of her father who had been the leader of Pakistan and was killed as well. I grieve for her family particularly her two children."

Senator Hillary Clinton
On the Assassination of Benazir Bhutto
Denison, Iowa
December 27, 2007
** Benazir Bhutto's father was hanged- not assassinated.
** Benazir Bhutto had 3 children not 2.

Clearly, Senator Clinton did not know Benazir Bhutto as well as she would like you to think...

[Link: gatewaypundit.blogspot.com...]

And these are the somewhat "moderate" muslims. God help us all, oh, and pass the ammo.

What's the deal with the nukes? How easy are they to launch and who has the codes?

re: #5 Thanos

I am sure there's a run on Yankee Imperialist Flags at the local Islamabad Flags-R-Us (conveniently located next to ZippoMart). What is a good civil meltdown without the Stars and Stripes burning up?

re: #7 Sharmuta

Musharif should have declared martial law last night.

Half the people think he is responsible for the assassination. A move like that could actually increase the likelihood of civil war. There are no good or easy answers.

I still think it was kind of foolish of her to parade through the streets. I understand what she was trying to do, but mingling amongst the people wasn't the greatest idea.

I would posit that a country where there were sizable territories (Waziristan) outside of direct Government influence and control and operating in a manner independent and against the direction defined by the national government could be technically defined as being already in a form of civil war.

re: #4 Thanos

I would think that the jihadi's would want nothing less than to fuel a full fledged civil war...counting on a knee jerk US response to abandon Musharraf. The non-randomness of the attacks plays towards a deliberate attempt to accelerate the move to a full fledged conflict - the same one they tried to ignite around the Red Mosque but were unable to do so.

There's a lot to fear now, my biggest one being that Musharref will now be assassinated which leaves...?

Let's hope India is dusting off her nukes.

re: #4 Thanos

Some of the attacks appear to be non-random

Yes, I was thinking about what you wrote on another thread while reading

Bhutto’s supporters ransacked banks, waged shootouts with police and burned trains and stations in a spasm of violence less than two weeks before parliamentary elections.

Centers of finance and transportation seem oddly specific targets for random mobs blind with grief.

Bhutto’s supporters ransacked banks, waged shootouts with police and burned trains and stations in a spasm of violence less than two weeks before parliamentary elections.

There is a difference between mourning for someone and causing rampant destruction. Although, I may be Thanos that this is not so random.

I heard an interesting analogy this morning comparing Bhutto's assassination with that of the train bombings in Madrid - both shortly before and election.

With both Bhutto's and Sharif's party's boycotting the election in protest, isn't this the very outcome (chaos and turmoil) an islamonazi would welcome? What an opportunity to step in and save the day!

re: #12 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

What's the deal with the nukes? How easy are they to launch and who has the codes?

Dirty bomb can be quite messy without all of the bang.
IED on a grand scale.

I don't see a civil war (strictly defined) because I don't see an organized opposition. There is a lot of anger and fear and there will certainly be prolonged rioting but even the Pakis know that they don't have an alternative to their current government. I really hope that Musharraf can stay alive.

re: #15 Sponge

She was campaigning, and you have to get your face out there.

re: #8 tripster

Waiting for Dr. RuPaul to blame America for this as well in:

3, 2, 1, ...

He's already done that. He blamed our "interventionist" policies.

Nawaz Sharif (see the Telegraph's article) is a snake!

Going forward in the global conflict before us, it is important to acknowledge and understand that al-Qaeda is currently engaged in an Information Operation (IO) campaign inside Pakistan. This is in addition to its efforts to gain influence outside of Pakistan, particularly with Muslims in Europe, the Middle East and in the US. The primary target of the Pakistan campaign is the Pakistani military and it is driven by al-Qaeda’s accelerating insurgency inside Pakistan.

...

Usama bin Laden’s latest message implored the Pakistani public to take up arms against Musharraf and warned the army’s soldiers to break ranks and fight Musharraf with al-Qaeda rather than serve him. This is a sign that al-Qaeda’s patient approach to its Pakistan insurgency has run its course. There could be a maelstrom of events to follow in Pakistan.

...

Secondly, and most importantly, al-Qaeda at the same time seeks to avoid open bloody conflict with the Army. Not because it fears the deadly consequences of such a confrontation, but rather because al-Qaeda senior leadership wants the Pakistani military intact – for themselves. Ideally, they do not want to ultimately find Musharraf killed or oustered only to have the military splintered internally between pro-government and pro-al-Qaeda commanders. Al-Qaeda is executing an insurgency to gain control, not to touch off a civil war.

In the end, al-Qaeda’s design is also to co-opt an intact military in order to gain command of a military force with the assets of a state (aircraft, armor, etc.) and direct control of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. Recent reports of defections of Pakistani military elements since bin Laden’s latest message to them indicates a level of success in the al-Qaeda IO campaign targeting them.

[Link: analysis.threatswatch.org...]

re: #21 Russkilitlover

I will respectfully disagree. The tribes in the tribal areas provide the organized opposition. Loyalty to tribe trumps loyalty to government.

Rehman Malik, another party official, said: "She has been martyred."

Is Pakistan heading for a civil war? Well, the riots seem to have turned more into an insurgency:

In the town of Tando Jam, passengers on a train were forced to flee as it was set on fire.

Attacks on transportation - a gas station was set ablaze and tires have been burned across roads (I assume blocking them).

Miss Bhutto's supporters targeted state-run grocery stores and banks throughout the country. Some set fire to election offices for the ruling party, according to Pakistani media.

They are also targeting structures associated with the ruling party. How long until they target the ruling party officials themselves?

Akhtar Zamin, the home minister for the southern Sindh province, said authorities would deploy troops to stop violence if needed.

I think this is beyond a mere riot, and possibly the start of something larger. Only time will tell as Bhutto is buried today.

The US claims the nukes are under Army control, hopefully by those loyal to Musharrif. But then, this could come from the same people who wrote the NIE about Iran.

An interesting scenario could be a terrorist detonating a bomb in Israel, but making it look like the bomb came from Iran or Syria, resulting in an Israeli attack on those countries.

Or maybe an attack from Iran via terrorist (instead of missile) that looks like it came from Pakistan.

Certainly, this could make an Israeli response to a nuclear attack more difficult, if the source of the nuke wasn't clear.

What is the difference without that Tali ban supporting crook out of the picture? Meaning support the General or whatever can tamp down this nuclear cauldron.

re: #22 gymgal

re: #15 Sponge

She was campaigning, and you have to get your face out there.

As I said, I understand what she was trying to do, but she should've stayed on the lecture stand instead of being down there with the people. I think it's better to rely on the fact that the islhamofacists can't shoot straight instead of daring them to 'set her up the bomb'...I'm just sayin.

re: #14 Lizard by the Bay

Bhutto herself blames him.

I am sorry to hear about all of this violence no matter what. I just couldn't imagine what it is like over there.

I'm just wonder' when ol' Condi is gonna start with that other dictator who name begins with M...That's Mubarek...of Egypt. Gotta get some more of that democracy goin'..Egypt might be a better candidate for democratizin', at least they haven't got any nukes..Yeah, send some "democracy" to Egypt...and maybe while we're at it, a little to Saudi Arabia also...

India has to be biting it's nails. They're as much in the IslamoNazi cross hairs as we are.

Re: the Nukes, I hope the US and maybe some friends can swoop in and secure them, and disable the nuke facilities while they're at it.

re: #8 tripster

Waiting for Dr. RuPaul to blame America for this as well in:

3, 2, 1, ...

He already has. He issued a statement declaring that "American Interventionism" caused this to happen.
He is beyond question a raging loon, but gets treated with respect by the MSM.

re: #10 storagemanager

"She wrote a very moving autobiography which begins with the assassination of her father who had been the leader of Pakistan and was killed as well. I grieve for her family particularly her two children."
Senator Hillary Clinton
On the Assassination of Benazir Bhutto
Denison, Iowa
December 27, 2007
** Benazir Bhutto's father was hanged- not assassinated.
** Benazir Bhutto had 3 children not 2.

Clearly, Senator Clinton did not know Benazir Bhutto as well as she would like you to think...

[Link: gatewaypundit.blogspot.com...]

But Hillary said

"I have known Benazir Bhutto for more than 12 years; she's someone whom I was honored to visit as first lady when she was prime minister,"

and this counts as part of her massive foreign experiance and why she be elected.

Are you saying she might be telling and untruth?

Man, my head is just spinning with this revelation. I need to go and sit down.

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...

Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

re: #17 gymgal

There's a lot to fear now, my biggest one being that Musharref will now be assassinated which leaves...?

Let's hope India is dusting off her nukes.

I'll bet the Indians are the Chinese are watching these events very carefully.

re: #25 Canadian Guy

I can see the advantage in some of that analysis, in particular, access to WMD - but access to conventional arms like armor and aircraft will be of limited use unless those trained and effective in their use are throwing in with AQ. Even with that - the last thing that AQ should be willing to do strategically is to take their fight from an asynchronous one to a conventional fight. That plays to the advantage of the US and or India.

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

Has Rage Boy been reached for comment?

He's upset. He's not sure if he is upset she was killed or upset more wasn't done, but he is sure that he is very very angry.

re: #31 Sponge

I know, it would have been much safer but I think the extremists would have got her at some point. They were determined to strike that brave woman down.

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

Has Rage Boy been reached for comment?

His mouth is full with the contents of a bucket of KFC... when finished, I'm sure he'll rage on for the local AP / Reuters photographers.

April 26th, 1992
There was a riot on the streets
Tell me where were you?
You were sittin' home watchin' your TV
While I was participating in some anarchy
First spot we hit it was my liquor store
I finally got all that alcohol I can't afford
With red lights flashin', time to retire
And then we turned that liquor store into a structure fire
Next stop we hit, it was the music shop,
It only took one brick to make that window drop
Finally we got our own P.A.
Where do you think I got this guitar that you're hearing today?

(Homicide, never doin' no time)

When we returned to the pad to unload everything
It dawned on me that I need new home furnishings
So once again we filled the van until it was full
Since that day my livin' room's been much more comfortable
Cause everybody in the hood has had it up to here
It's getting harder and harder and harder each and every year
Some kids went in a store with their mother
I saw her when she came out she was gettin' some Pampers

They said it was for the black man
They said it was for the Mexican
And not for the white man
But if you look at the streets, it wasn't about Rodney King
It's this fucked-up situation and these fucked-up police
It's about comin' up and stayin' on top
And screamin' 187 on a mother fuckin' cop
It's not in the papers it's on the wall
National guard
Smoke from all around

[Units be advised of an attempt 211 to arrest now at 938 Temple,
9-3-8 Temple, many subjects with bats trying to get inside
the CB's house...they're trying to kill him]

Let it burn
Wanna let it burn, wanna let it burn
Wanna wanna let it burn (I feel insane)
Riots on the streets of Miami
Whoa, riots on the streets of Chicago

Riots on the streets of Rawalpindi.
Riots in Garhi Khuda Bakhsh.
Riots in Karachi.
Multan, Naudero, Lahore.
/band: Sublime

re: #40 Athos

re: #25 Canadian Guy

I can see the advantage in some of that analysis, in particular, access to WMD - but access to conventional arms like armor and aircraft will be of limited use unless those trained and effective in their use are throwing in with AQ.

Well a large segment of the ISI and the military are sympathetic to AQ and the Taliban.

re: #29 Kosh's Shadow

The US claims the nukes are under Army control, hopefully by those loyal to Musharrif. But then, this could come from the same people who wrote the NIE about Iran.

The NIE is an aggregate summation of the findings of over a dozen intelligence agencies in the United States. The U.S. has a ton of intelligence agencies that often bicker and fight amongst themselves. Overall, I would opine as an outsider that U.S. intelligence is poor especially in the area of the world where Pakistan is.

Added: Friday, 28 December, 2007, 17:02 GMT 17:02 UK

I think it's a shame that our home country is in turmoil and our fellow muslims have to revert to violence to react to things they cannot accept.
The only thing I can say is we should be ashamed of ourselves for the brutality displayed and the unrest Pakistan will face as a consequence.
I would just like to pass on my condolences to all those affected by the assination of such a huge political figure and an intelligent woman and I hope we can all pray for Bhutto's family who are suffering most

Nabila Ayub, Bradford

Added: Friday, 28 December, 2007, 16:51 GMT 16:51 UK

Benazir represented empowerment of women in the Muslim world and was most definitely a soldier of Democracy. Her brutal end is aimed to weaken both women’s rights and Democracy in the authoritarian and fundamentalist Muslim world. Pakistan Government and its agencies should know that if they sow hatred they can not reap goodwill. Let them for once put country before religion and talk about reconciliation which is the need of the hour.

Dr. Surajit Bhattacharya, Lucknow, INDIA

[Link: newsforums.bbc.co.uk...]

I have often considered Pakistan to be in a state of suspended civil war. Mush Mush has had his keester parked on a boiling pot for several years, trying to keep the lid down. Perhaps it's time to let the damn thing boil over. It seems inevitable.

re: #45 Canadian Guy

Yes, I would bet half of them are closet AlQueda. Or have I been watching too much 24?

re: #26 Athos

The "tribes" are off the rez. I think the time to move into that area and finally bring it under control is now. These tribes supplied the Taliban with fighters and money before 2001. Now, they are giving aid and comfort to the enemy of both Pakistan, Afghanistan and the USA by harboring the remnants of the Taliban and hiding our Al-Qaida pals. There should be a price attached to those actions. They are sitting in their mountains daring Musharrif to attack. I say now is the time to go in there...the country of Pakistan is in the balance. If not, the people over there better get used to more suicide bombers and political assassinations.

re: #33 sarah

Try Detroit.

re: #26 Athos

re: #21 Russkilitlover

I will respectfully disagree. The tribes in the tribal areas provide the organized opposition. Loyalty to tribe trumps loyalty to government.

I should clarify - I definitely see the probability of complete civil meltdown, which, if Musharraf is killed would leave a huge and lethal vaccuum but only briefly. AQ loves vaccuums and will go all Hoover on Pakistan in short order. However, there is a substantial military presence of a certain leader of the free world just down the street from Pakistan. Next Pres better have this on his/her radar, like, yesterday!

re: #45 Canadian Guy

Well a large segment of the ISI and the military are sympathetic to AQ and the Taliban.

Any idea on the percentage? More than 20%?

re: #47 storagemanager

What?! Muslims that are actually sorry about what happened? whoa...

re: #39 Honorary Yooper

I hope the Afghanis are too. The last thing they need is a bunch of al-qaeda *ssholes fleeing over the border.

re: #18 Silhouette

re: #4 Thanos

Some of the attacks appear to be non-random

Yes, I was thinking about what you wrote on another thread while reading

Bhutto’s supporters ransacked banks, waged shootouts with police and burned trains and stations in a spasm of violence less than two weeks before parliamentary elections.

Centers of finance and transportation seem oddly specific targets for random mobs blind with grief.

Yeah, believe it or not it's more disturbing at the moment that they are hitting banks, jails, government buildings and transport hubs rather than KFC and McDonald's as they usually do.

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...

Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Reminds me of Iran..1979

A few days seething and score-settling followed by a return to 'normal'.

Where is AQ Khan being detained?

re: #51 Sceptic Tank

I must live in Shelterville. Do people there do the same or worse?

Hillary said "I have known Benazir Bhutto for more than 12 years; she's someone whom I was honored to visit as first lady when she was prime minister,"

Is this when you decided to be President? Or in college when you decided Bill would be president 1st, and you 2nd?

re: #57 storagemanager

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...

Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Reminds me of Iran..1979

Definitely.

re: #62 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #57 storagemanager

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...

Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Reminds me of Iran..1979

Definitely.

Only this time they have nukes.

re: #28 Honorary Yooper

It's more than just Bhutto's supporters, especially the banks and trains.

I think some, if not most, of the destruction is being done by al Qaida cells, as an organized follow-on to the assassination. A senior operative was captured recently. His capture exposed the extent of the organization.

re: #50 Desert Dog

re: #26 Athos

The "tribes" are off the rez. I think the time to move into that area and finally bring it under control is now. These tribes supplied the Taliban with fighters and money before 2001. Now, they are giving aid and comfort to the enemy of both Pakistan, Afghanistan and the USA by harboring the remnants of the Taliban and hiding our Al-Qaida pals. .

Actually, the Taliban in that region have turned on AQ in recent weeks, much like what happened in Iran.

The Taliban Splits

The conditions that led to this change have been reported here but nearly nowhere else in the U.S. The coalition forces have managed to split al Qaeda from a politically important Islamic militant leader in Pakistan. That man leads the Pakistan portion of the Taliban; he helped to create it in the 90's. Pitting him against al Qaeda has split the Taliban.

Since Al Qaeda has lost in Iraq, its leadership has reckoned they have nowhere else to go if they lose the support of the Taliban. With the Taliban split jeopardizing its' support base, al Qaeda has been forced into a position of attempting a hostile takeover of the Taliban, supporting young leaders to overthrow the old leaders who are allied with the Pakistan-based leadership.

This has created a condition in which the Taliban factions are turning on each other and al Qaeda is trying to run roughshod over them.

Musharraf Mobilizes Pakistan's Military

Musharraf, though certainly stepping on a lot of toes with his emergency declaration, has used this time to redeploy his forces, which were stagnant on the border with India, into combat. For the first time, he is sending large scale maneuver forces backed by artillery, tanks, and air support into regions controlled by al Qaeda and the sympathetic Taliban. His forces have reportedly driven the Taliban and al Qaeda forces of Maulana Fazlullah into the hills. The Pakistani military has even followed these terrorists into the administered areas which Musharraf effectively turned over to the Taliban over a year ago.

There are indications that Fazlullah himself had no real interest in an armed takeover of the Swat valley, where the bulk of the fighting has been located. It appears very much like he was driven to it by al Qaeda forces coming in from the tribal areas and imposing their will on the "young Taliban" to take more land in Pakistan.

This is an indication that al Qaeda is desperate, has redirected forces once meant for Iraq and is willing to crush the same people who have hosted them in Pakistan. In effect, they are doing the same thing in Pakistan that led to their defeat in Iraq. Only this time, they have no other strong support base to fall back to if they lose the Pakistan tribal regions.

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet or whether you have heard, but Pakistan's Interior Ministry is now reporting that Bhutto's cause of death was not a bullet or shrapnel from the explosion but from fracturing her skull by hitting a lever on the roof of the car that operated a sunroof as she attempted to duck back down into her vehicle.

Breaking News: Bullets did not kill Bhutto

I also want to believe that we (the USA) have some kind of handle on the nuclear weapons over there. Or at least know where the handle is and how to grab it forcefully when necessary.

Pakis with nukes - this is the nightmare scenario. An Islamist nation ripped asunder. It was never a question of "if" - only a question of "when".

re: #36 opnion

re: #8 tripster

Waiting for Dr. RuPaul to blame America for this as well in:

3, 2, 1, ...

He already has. He issued a statement declaring that "American Interventionism" caused this to happen.
He is beyond question a raging loon, but gets treated with respect by the MSM.

Hopefully he won't poll well enough to be included in future debates.

re: #49 gymgal

That would NOT shock me...

I meant "much like what happened in Iraq" in my above post

re: #45 Canadian Guy

re: #40 Athos

re: #25 Canadian Guy

I can see the advantage in some of that analysis, in particular, access to WMD - but access to conventional arms like armor and aircraft will be of limited use unless those trained and effective in their use are throwing in with AQ.

Well a large segment of the ISI and the military are sympathetic to AQ and the Taliban.

Yes, and that will give them some or even most drivers for the hardware. That might be enough for intimidating civilians - but not for projecting force into Afghanistan or India. The WMD is their main goal. That provides them with force projection and influence.

re: #36 opnion

re: #8 tripster

Waiting for Dr. RuPaul to blame America for this as well in:

3, 2, 1, ...

He already has. He issued a statement declaring that "American Interventionism" caused this to happen.
He is beyond question a raging loon, but gets treated with respect by the MSM.

I knew about yesterday's diarrhea of the mouth-o-rama. I just meant that he would additionally expound on the fact that the civil war was also our fault. To further support his position.

And all that jazz.

; )

Added: Friday, 28 December, 2007, 16:49 GMT 16:49 UK

The situation of Pakistan is unstable after Benazir Bhutto. I wish to cry over the insident what ever we thinked about her that she was crupt but each of us think this as a personal loss.
The elections are not in doubt and this shouldnot have happened.
Worst thing is the brutal situation of th country. Some one now has to come forward to take the charge.

Umar Mughal, Karachi

[Link: newsforums.bbc.co.uk...]

re: #64 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #28 Honorary Yooper

It's more than just Bhutto's supporters, especially the banks and trains.

I think some, if not most, of the destruction is being done by al Qaida cells, as an organized follow-on to the assassination. A senior operative was captured recently. His capture exposed the extent of the organization.

I have to agree with your theory. We have rent-a-protestor here in the US, so why not there? The one thing AQ does well (outside of terrorist acts) is press manipulation, and nothing gets the attention of the press like a good riot. If that riot can get AQ some funding through the pillaging of banks, so much the better.

re: #63 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

re: #62 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #57 storagemanager

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Reminds me of Iran..1979

Definitely.

Only this time they have nukes.

But we don't have Carter...

That could be a strategic advantage...

re: #55 Sharmuta

re: #39 Honorary Yooper

I hope the Afghanis are too. The last thing they need is a bunch of al-qaeda *ssholes fleeing over the border.

Exactly. It might undo all we have accomplished since the Taliban were overthrown.

re: #65 Canadian Guy

Thanks for the article. I hope it's true. Once they wear out their welcome in Pakistan, what hiding place is left for them?

re: #8 tripster
Already did. last night I think.
NOR LUAP!

"Political Parties" in the third world need money to rally supporters and buy votes. In a country like Pakistan with no tradition of democracy (and no tradition of political spoils to shared out) the 'parties' support themselves through petit corruption. Just like the mob in the US, they get their money in the equivalents of nickels and dimes from people who can barely afford to "contribute". Of course the contributions are voluntary, but those who don't volunteer are subject to many reprisals directed against them and their families.
Bhutto had to return to Pakistan, whatever the danger, because her party was withering without her. Her popularity probably wasn't in danger, but with the "political" leader out of the country, her communications penetrated by the ISI and maybe by the opposition, her party was not able to coerce enough money to continue to mount a campaign.
With her death, the party lieutenants must now vie for the top spot and with it control of the contributions and control of the organization which encourages contributions. Their primary need during the succession is cash. The paramilitary wings of the parties will be out in force during the instability to foster more instability (always good for the revolutionary party) and to crack safes and bank vaults to obtain the money they need to buy votes, ammo, vests, ball bearings, c4, and the rest of the apparatus of a good election.
Non random targets are to be expected.

re: #66 BartlebyTheScrivener

Uh- one thread down, Bart.

re: #58 experiencedtraveller

We can hope. Or best yet, Musharraf uses this to justify a long needed thorough house cleaning of the AQ types in the badlands.

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...

Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Prayers (5 times daily with asses in the air) are usually what starts these messes.

re: #75 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #63 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

re: #62 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #57 storagemanager

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Reminds me of Iran..1979

Definitely.

Only this time they have nukes.

But we don't have Carter...

That could be a strategic advantage...

Could be, but would the President have the guts to take action, even if it included the use of a tactical nuke?

re: #68 loppyd

Well, Lopps, we will see how strong the 'Revolution' really is next week in the Iowa Caucuses...

re: #60 sarah

re: #51 Sceptic Tank

I must live in Shelterville. Do people there do the same or worse?

Septic Tank's being an ass. Detroit's no different than any other large American city. In fact, larger sections of St Louis have been abandoned, and let's not even get into what East St Louis is like.

I 'm hearing that there is a new NIE report out that states that Pakistan was not really acquiring WMDs in the 1960s but was really setting up cookie factories

re: #65 Canadian Guy

Actually, the Taliban in that region have turned on AQ in recent weeks,

Now, there's a war I could sit back and watch while eating popcorn. And I hope the last one standing commits suicide.

re: #76 Honorary Yooper

re: #55 Sharmuta

re: #39 Honorary Yooper

I hope the Afghanis are too. The last thing they need is a bunch of al-qaeda *ssholes fleeing over the border.

Exactly. It might undo all we have accomplished since the Taliban were overthrown.

The Taliban and al-Qaeda are now cooperating in Afghanistan and in the lawless areas of Baluchistan and North-West Frontier Province and have been for the past couple of years at least.

Chaos is what they (neo-taliban and al queda) want, civil war is frankly too "civilized" for most of the ungoverned Pakistan. I'm very surprised there weren't further suicide attacks during the funeral.

re: #50 Desert Dog

re: #26 Athos

The "tribes" are off the rez. I think the time to move into that area and finally bring it under control is now. These tribes supplied the Taliban with fighters and money before 2001. Now, they are giving aid and comfort to the enemy of both Pakistan, Afghanistan and the USA by harboring the remnants of the Taliban and hiding our Al-Qaida pals. There should be a price attached to those actions. They are sitting in their mountains daring Musharrif to attack. I say now is the time to go in there...the country of Pakistan is in the balance. If not, the people over there better get used to more suicide bombers and political assassinations.

I will not disagree that it is time for Musharraf to decide to 'unify' his country. But let's not underestimate the effort or the cost. He has sent Corps sized units into that region before - and both sides took heavy casualties. The terrain clearly favors the defense and the tribal unities combined with the religion create a new level of fanaticism.

I think a repeat of the tactics of Afghanistan (2001) with Musharraf's forces playing the role of the Northern Alliance with US SpecForces and very heavy air support will be the best option - but the jihadi influence in the ISI and military will work against him and us. If he's willing to take regular army forces from the border with India and use them - the US should be willing to assist if asked.

re: #60 sarah

Violent crime (terrorism) is no stranger to the US. 9/11 happened. Personally, a happy, peaceful but aware Holiday to you.

re: #80 Sharmuta

re: #66 BartlebyTheScrivener

Uh- one thread down, Bart.

Is that like Two Doors Down? Great Dwight Yoakam song.

Ok, back to discussing Pakistan. Thanks for the info.

re: #83 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

re: #75 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #63 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

re: #62 Poitiers-Lepanto

re: #57 storagemanager

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Reminds me of Iran..1979

Definitely.

Only this time they have nukes.

But we don't have Carter...That could be a strategic advantage...

Could be, but would the President have the guts to take action, even if it included the use of a tactical nuke?

I don't know but this anyway is a lesson for the Giggling President: you may support phony intelligence reports as much you want, you will still have to face the problems that are boiling UP out there...
And he could understand that this time we need to TELL Pakistan what we will NOT accept...

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...

Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Seriously more dangerous IMO. Mutual assured destruction saved us from destroying ourselves throughout that prolonged war. Mutual assured destruction is goal for many, or of no consequence for todays enemy.

re: #52 Russkilitlover

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

Has Rage Boy been reached for comment?

Yes. He was quoted as saying "ululululululululululul!"
Also, there was random gunfire into the air.

What will be of interest is whether Baitullah comes out with a denial or not.

re: #83 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Yes, I think President Bush would act immediarely if AQ got control of the country. We didn't act when the Taliban got control of Afganistan; we learned our lesson. President Bush may be a lame duck, but he doesn't need his feet to press a button.

re: #57 storagemanager

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...

Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Reminds me of Iran..1979

That's why Richardson's comments in particular were so irresponsible. He basically called for a repeat of Carter's decision to toss the Shah under the bus.

#67 ronaldusmagnus

No, we don't have any actual arrangement with the Government of Pakistan to ensure their nukes are protected.
Guess someone must have overlooked that little issue.
Bummer.

The assassination and subsequent rioting ran right into Friday "prayers". I question the timing.

/ Need I?

re: #74 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

I'm certain the PPP is 5 miles beyond distraught, and that Bhutto's supporters are raising hell.

The existence of a pre-organized network of al Qaida cells, and allies' cells, is fact. I read a report within the past 24 hours about its discovery, but can't remember which website it was on. The network was set up to monitor Bhutto's movements. Assassination teams would be dispatched when it appeared that an opportunity might present itself. Lord only knows how many teams were sent out as contingencies. Al Qaida was desperate to get her.

An excellent overview from the UK's Telegraph -- "Why the fanatics wanted Benazir Bhutto dead"

re: #77 Desert Dog

re: #65 Canadian Guy

Thanks for the article. I hope it's true. Once they wear out their welcome in Pakistan, what hiding place is left for them?

Back to Sudan?

re: #84 tfc3rid

re: #68 loppyd

Well, Lopps, we will see how strong the 'Revolution' really is next week in the Iowa Caucuses...

The latest poll from LA Times/Bloomberg doesn't have him listed at all.

re: #81 Silhouette

re: #58 experiencedtraveller

We can hope. Or best yet, Musharraf uses this to justify a long needed thorough house cleaning of the AQ types in the badlands.

He needs to clean the "bad guys" from the ISI and the Army first. That's a big part of the reason why Pakistan hasn't been able to track down ObL.

re: #53 Silhouette

re: #45 Canadian Guy

Well a large segment of the ISI and the military are sympathetic to AQ and the Taliban.

Any idea on the percentage? More than 20%?

How much support do radical Islamists have within Pakistan's army?
Experts disagree. While Gannon says there is "a great deal of sympathy within the army for the radical religious right," Weinbaum doubts there is a large group "sympathetic to the most radical of groups." On the other hand, if even a small percentage is willing to block Musharraf's orders to crack down on militants, it can greatly undermine the army's effectiveness. Pakistani military officers have recently been arrested for alleged ties to al Qaeda, according to press reports. Disloyal army and intelligence officials can also provide information to militants to help Musharraf's assassins. Pakistani investigators, for example, suspect that the Christmas Day attackers may have had inside information about the president's route and schedule.

[Link: www.cfr.org...]

re: #99 Athos

re: #57 storagemanager

re: #38 Poitiers-Lepanto

We are watching the most dangerous show on this poor planet since the USSR times...
Prayers could help to keep the ship afloat...

Reminds me of Iran..1979

That's why Richardson's comments in particular were so irresponsible. He basically called for a repeat of Carter's decision to toss the Shah under the bus.

I agree.

re: #101 MrMom

serendipity

Re my #95 in response to #52 (PIMF)

Next Pres better have this on his/her radar, like, yesterday!

That's why the comments from the candidates yesterday were so important and illuminating. A number of candidates should have killed their efforts for President and or VP with their comments.

re: #85 Honorary Yooper

Or North Philly.

re: #4 Thanos

Some of the attacks appear to be non-random - like the freeing of
prisoners, the trains and stations burnt. If more attacks on transport
infrastructure occur I would not be surprised.

One of the first things that happens in any revolution - Storming the Bastille, the Iranian prisons were opened in the 79 revolution, etc.

re: #68 loppyd

Hopefully he won't poll well enough to be included in future debates.

Are there more debates. When ?
I hope so. Sure need Hillary to answer 'a' question.

re: #110 Widow'smight

re: #85 Honorary Yooper

Or North Philly.

What, you don't like the Living History recreation of Dresden 1945?

"Shoot on sight"

More then just riots going on. [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

re: #10 storagemanager

She made her relationship sound as if they got together every Wed. night to exchange recipes

re: #91 Sceptic Tank

I knew that the level of threat was higher only because it seems that we are more aware. Now, I just don't understand how you can say that there are burning riots in towns that happen on a daily basis.
My concern would be if someone were to kill one of our leaders are we going to all go out and burn banks, trains, and whatever? This doesn't seem like it would be just like over there.

What will India do? I can't see any way that they would stand still while jihadis take over their nuclear armed neighbor.

re: #66 BartlebyTheScrivener

Same outcome.

re: #116 sarah

re: #91 Sceptic Tank

would be if someone were to kill one of our leaders are we going to all
go out and burn banks, trains, and whatever? This doesn't seem like it
would be just like over there.

No, that just happens after Lakers' championships.

re: #106 Canadian Guy

re: #53 Silhouette

re: #45 Canadian Guy

Well a large segment of the ISI and the military are sympathetic to AQ and the Taliban.

Any idea on the percentage? More than 20%?

How much support do radical Islamists have within Pakistan's army?
Experts disagree. While Gannon says there is "a great deal of sympathy within the army for the radical religious right," Weinbaum doubts there is a large group "sympathetic to the most radical of groups." On the other hand, if even a small percentage is willing to block Musharraf's orders to crack down on militants, it can greatly undermine the army's effectiveness. Pakistani military officers have recently been arrested for alleged ties to al Qaeda, according to press reports. Disloyal army and intelligence officials can also provide information to militants to help Musharraf's assassins. Pakistani investigators, for example, suspect that the Christmas Day attackers may have had inside information about the president's route and schedule.

[Link: www.cfr.org...]

I trust the assessment of the Federation of American Scientists as a resource. Here's what they say about the ISI which is considered the islamic fundamentalist arm of the Pakistan military who established the Taliban:

Pakistan's military leader, General Pervez Musharraf, has attempted to rein in the ISI. Since September 11th, Islamic fundamentalists have been purged from leadership positions. This includes then-ISI head Lieutenant General Mahmood Ahmed, who was replaced in October 2001 by Lieutenant General Ehsanul Haq.

Additional reforms of the ISI have been made. Most notable was the decision to disband the Kashmir and Afghanistan units. Both these groups have promoted Islamic fundamentalist militancy throughout South Asia. Some officials have been forced to retire and others have been transferred back to the military. Intelligence experts have estimated that these moves would slash the size of the ISI by close to 40%.

Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence

re: #113 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

But remember, Mayor Street told us it's all good now, the Brothers are in Control.

My neighbor delivers Laundry items to Bars in North Philly a couple days a week, armed of course. Guess that's why he moved out here to the country.

My Avatar protects us by barking when someone approaches, then sitting there waiting for them to pet him or feed him. He's well trained

Pakistan needs to get out of Pakistan!

re: #117 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

What will India do? I can't see any way that they would stand still while jihadis take over their nuclear armed neighbor.

Agreed. India cannot let AQ have those nukes. I saw that the rioting is even in Kashmir this morning (Paki-side). And the Chinese are probably watching these events unfold very intensely. I also would not want to be in Kabul seeing this break.

It seems to be extremely unstable right now.

I'm under the impression here that should Al Qaeda take Pakistan, India may invade with a preemptive strike to ensure the nukes are neutralized though the combat ready nuke units may launch in retaliation. Strange times we are living in but with Al Qaeda being turned on in Iraq they may have look to the unrest in Pakistan as fertile ground to take the country since they have a much stronger foothold there than in Iraq. Plus the US and Allies have limited their military operations to only the border lands. European and American "intellectuals" better take note.

No worries. Our crack State Dept is on the case.

After a little piano playing, Condi is putting in a call to Olmert to get him to slow down on the condo developments in eastern Jerusalem.

No doubt that will tamp down Pakistani anger, while she fishes around looking for another disgraced ex pakistani politico to parachute in and start shopping away at Musharaf's legs.

re: #116 sarah

Read up on the Kennedy assassination and the ensuing riots, Rodney King, or should the dollar crash hello Zombietime. Or the Lakers.

What's the point of talking about elections when the main candidates are either dead or hiding under various rocks? And who is the Taliban candidate - I'm kinda liking his chances lately.
Also, this stuff about Bhutto getting killed by the sunroof handle sounds like a load of crap - maybe she was killed in the car or at the hospital?
And if I was Musharaff I would cash in some air miles, just in case.
And by the way, if you want to know when India is about to make a move on the Paki nukes then just watch for when your telemarketing phone calls slow down.
Now please excuse me while I go buy some Time Warner stock and some snacks and beverage - it's gonna be a TV news kind of weekend.

re: #34 J.S.

I'm just wonder' when ol' Condi is gonna start with that other dictator who name begins with M...That's Mubarek...of Egypt. Gotta get some more of that democracy goin'..Egypt might be a better candidate for democratizin', at least they haven't got any nukes..Yeah, send some "democracy" to Egypt...and maybe while we're at it, a little to Saudi Arabia also...

A better candidate for multiple reasons--they have some predisposition towards democracy and could be nudged farther; their geography and demography (in contrast to that of Pakistan which is just begging for instability)--my goodness, look at the diversity of groups within Pakistan and around Pakistan in comparison to Egypt and its borders and interior, all the land borders, versus, the sea borders of Egypt, etc.; the global role and potential of Egypt as the center of Islamic scholarship and unlike Pakistan, also an Arab country thus influencing the Arab League and tempering Saudi Arabia's Salafism; the timing (Mubarak's getting up there, there will be a change one way or another), etc., etc. (Saudi Arabia, no, that'd be another place where not to push for democracy yet. There are other approaches to be used with them.)

The best thing Mushariff could do now is actually ask for American help.

Have us send a division into the area where Osama is believed to be and have us destroy the place, bit by bit down to dust. Massive bombardment, whatever it takes short of tactical nukes - though keep them handy in case.

At the same time, declare martial law
rescind the elections for early next year
set a date for June so the folks have something to "look forward to"
in terms of the release of martial law, etc.

and set the tone in general that the Jihadis and their shit will not be tolerated and that the iron fist is going to smash them before anything else happens, period.

re: #128 Orde

Bad idea. The Muslim Botherhood would sieze power.

Classic one man, one vote, one time scenario.

Until these societies are reformed from the inside out, we need to stop pushing democracy, and start pushing business, technological development, and real education.

Democracy will eventually come after living standards are improved and the powerty Isalmic fundamentalism feeds on is ameliorated.

And, the jihadis have to be killed, first and foremost.

#25 and 65 Canadian Guy
Thanks for the links, very informative, if frightening. I've made a note of them.
AQ make lousy dinner guests, they eat with their hands, steal the cutlery then stab you in the back with it.

If AQ think Pakistan would make a nice holiday home they should remember that the neighbours are 1 billion Indians, with nukes.

Hopefully Parvez will get a strong grip on this, if he doesn't it's going to turn into a blood bath. Someone should be talking to him about doing a deal with the Indians to take his nukes for safekeeping and disable any production facilities. It would stick in his craw but if AQ take hold the consequences could be cataclysmic. They don't even have to run the country, they much prefer to put some muppets up front and run things in the background whilst hiding out. I don't think they want the UN and especially Western countries to be able to pinpoint them as a country rather than as a terrorist organisation. That would invite an overwhelming military response and they wouldn't want to be caught with most of their heirarchy in one place (altho if they are rejected in other countries they might be forced into it). They prefer creating chaos and destruction in general rather than be tied down to one area.

re: #125 Maine's Michael

heheheh wonder what you can buy at "shopping at Mush's legs".

LOVE the condi line...

Nice to see that the Bhutto supporters are so rational. They wouldn't want to play into the assassins' hands by rioting or starting a civil war or anything, would they? Nah, they wouldn't be so stupid as that. I know emotions run high in this situation (as in the MLK riots) but one can always hope that cooler heads will prevail as people think about what they want to accomplish and how to do it.

As for Bhutto, I can't help but think that she had a death wish and was not unhappy to become a martyr. It's convenient to blame Musharref for not giving her better protection etc. etc. etc. , but after surviving a previous attempt on her life, wouldn't you think she would refrain from standing up through a sun roof, thereby putting a bullseye on her forehead? No bullet proof/bomb proof car (which this reportedly was) will protect you if you act like an idiot. Even the Popes have learned that lesson.

re: #133 crabtree

I would guess that establishing democracy in Pakistan calls for dangerous choices. I think she was very brave, I don't think I could have been as determined as she was. She knew the odds weren't good, but she did it anyway. Deathwish or a lesson in leadership? I don't know.

It definitely took courage to return to Pakistan as she did, although her motives were probably a good deal more complex and less idealistic than often depicted. But I don't think it's leadership when you deliberately put yourself in harm's way. I'm not saying she should have withdrawn from all public events, and sometimes risk-taking is unavoidable for public figures, but this was not one of those times.

I long for the days of the evil British imperialisim of the Raj over the whole subcontinent.

So when India and Pakistan lobbing nukes at each other the only nearby island of sanity and reason will be...Afghanistan?
God bless the U.S. soldier!

re: #137 Pope Insouciance IV

That and perhaps Nepal, where they recently voted to abolish the monarchy. Unless they hand that country over to the commies.

But not Tibet, where the ChiCom have decreed that you may not reincarnate without official permission.
I mean, that;s a right enshrined in our Constitution!

Well, if Bin Laden wont get his civil war in IRaq, maybe he'll get one in Pakistan

Have no fear- whoever takes over in Pakistan, John Edwards (D-Moron) will ensure that they have coats to keep them warm in the brutal pakistani winter

What are the chances they'll use those nukes on themselves?

aaahopeahopeahopeahopeahopeahope.

Another opportunity to remind readers that the Left in the US (read Democrats) and the Communist partners in the current Indian colalition (India Congress Party and the India Communist Party) government scutttled the strategic US-Indian alliance - nuclear cooperation. This was a huge piece of international negotiations undertaken by the Bush administration that the White House has been working on for YEARS. Indians working on it have lamented that an opportunity has been lost that won't come again, to paraphrase the quote in India Today newspaper: "there aren't many leaders like Bush who have the foresight and vision for this sort of thing."

This initiative had been creating a great excitment in India - the Republicans were moving beyond the tired old - treating India and Pakistan as identical twins, whatever one got, so did the other, no differentiating between the two. Bush reached out to India as a full partner in a major strategic alliance. The US press has been silent on all this, but Indian press has had wide and in depth coverage.

Everyone was pushing Musharraf to step down, go-go-go for democracy, in the midst of a growing insurgency - not caused by Musharraf, but by Islamofascists. Now what? The Left pushing to get rid of Musharraf with no credible replacement in sight, while making sure India and the USA have no cooperation treaty. Communists didn't like it. Meant China didn't like it? India needs to protect itself from China and Pakistan. Both countries have helped themselves to Indian territory in the recent past.

A lot of meddling that doesn't serve US interests at all.

I wonder if maybe Al Qaeda & Co. are moving most of their efforts to Pakistan, figuring that Iraq is now a lost cause for them, and because they hope to gain control of the nukes, and because Pakistan is nearly home sweet home for them anyway.