LGF

-RetweetMcCarthy: If You Want Democracy, Kill the Jihadists First

Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 9:44:58 am PST

Some excellent points on the push to “democratize” places like Pakistan, from Andrew McCarthy: Killed by the real Pakistan.

Whether we get round to admitting it or not, in Pakistan, our quarrel is with the people. Their struggle, literally, is jihad. For them, freedom would mean institutionalizing the tyranny of Islamic fundamentalism. They are the same people who, only a few weeks ago, tried to kill Benazir Bhutto on what was to be her triumphant return to prominence — the symbol, however dubious, of democracy’s promise. They are the same people who managed to kill her today. Today, no surfeit of Western media depicting angry lawyers railing about Musharraf — as if he were the problem — can camouflage that fact.

In Pakistan, it is the regime that propounds Western values, such as last year’s reform of oppressive, Sharia-based Hudood laws, which made rape virtually impossible to prosecute — a reform enacted despite furious fundamentalist rioting that was, shall we say, less well covered in the Western press. The regime, unreliable and at times infuriating, is our only friend. It is the only segment of Pakistani society capable of confronting militant Islam — though its vigor for doing so is too often sapped by its own share of jihadist sympathizers.

Yet, we’ve spent two months pining about its suppression of democracy — its instinct not further to empower the millions who hate us. For the United States, the question is whether we learn nothing from repeated, inescapable lessons that placing democratization at the top of our foreign policy priorities is high-order folly.

The transformation from Islamic society to true democracy is a long-term project. It would take decades if it can happen at all. Meanwhile, our obsessive insistence on popular referenda is naturally strengthening — and legitimizing — the people who are popular: the jihadists. Popular elections have not reformed Hamas in Gaza or Hezbollah in Lebanon. Neither will they reform a place where Osama bin Laden wins popular opinion polls and where the would-be reformers are bombed and shot at until they die.

We don’t have the political will to fight the war on terror every place where jihadists work feverishly to kill Americans. And, given the refusal of the richest, most spendthrift government in American history to grow our military to an appropriate war footing, we may not have the resources to do it.

But we should at least stop fooling ourselves. Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence. If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they’ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto.

Advertisement

222 comments

  • Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 BigMac  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:47:36am

So... that happened.

2 Drained Brain  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:47:41am

Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence.

This appears to be an accurate analysis, unfortunately.

3 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:47:52am

You could see this conclusion from space, Charles.

I never like to see people die...but I'm beginning to think that Jihadi's aren't humans.

They are 'things', and should be treated as such.

~Norsk Troll

4 opinionated  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:48:28am

Gov. Bill Richardson, D-N.M., cited, while U.N. ambassador, his 1997 discussions with Giuliani about settling foreign diplomats' unpaid parking tickets.

"Over the years, I've negotiated with the toughest characters abroad -- Saddam Hussein in Iraq, North Korea, Cuba on political prisoners," Richardson said. "The toughest guy I've ever had to negotiate with is Rudy Giuliani."

[Link: www.pressofatlanticcity.com...]

If you want to kill the Jihadists you need a tough guy.

5 MJ  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:48:41am

Andrew McCarthy, please cc Condi Rice and the State Department.

6 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:50:06am
If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first.

You also need to stop their ranks from swelling. The saudi funded madrassas, where the future jihadis are indoctrinated, need to be shut down.

7 DistantThunder  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:50:28am

Crush the Jihadis

Eliminate the Jihadis

Terminate the Jihadis


They all work for me since Jihadis are mass murderers and serial killers all rolled into one.

8 Angel  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:52:11am

Jeeehadis are not going to be wished away!
why cant our gummint talk like this eh!

Booyah!

9 Desert Dog  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:52:13am

Kill them all and let God sort them out? I do not think a rabid jihadi is a human being in the same sense we are. Their is no conscience to appeal to. We are sub-human scum that either has to convert, submit or die. How do you deal with that mind set? Kill them before they kill you.

10 alegrias  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:52:15am

Ralph Peters agrees, only Pakistan's military and Musharraf care about improving the lives of average Pakistanis over the protestations of islamists and corrupt elites.

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

11 sarah  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:52:16am

re: #7 DistantThunder

I agree.

12 tfc3rid  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:52:19am

re: #3 EtNorskTroll

We (meaning the US) will never see things that way... However, other nations nearer to the threat, may not...

13 Render  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:52:34am

re: #3 EtNorskTroll

Funny.

I tend to think the same way about neo-nazi's and their willing supporters as well.

DEHUMANIZER,
R

14 FriarsTale  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:52:43am

sorta like the earlier Ott piece
the people have spoken
are we listening?

15 Angel  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:53:13am

re: #5 MJ

Andrew McCarthy, please cc Condi Rice and the State Department.

and Bush, and Olmert and France and all of Europe and and and!

16 hermit  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:53:25am

sorry if someone already posted this - ah, the future of ROP tolerance...
God Vs. Allah Issue Threatens Catholic Newspaper in Muslim Country

17 lakedog66  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:53:53am

Animals...You can't negotiate with them, the only thing they understand is harming others. You know, the only reason that unrest is limited after any war is the inability of the defeated to want, or have the ability to fight. We have pacified the islamofascists enough. Time to block all humanitarian aid and just send in the military. There will be no democratic process as long as islam exists as a major religion.
Muhammed was a pedophile, and his followers are just as sick.

18 Texas Joel  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:53:58am

The US government is failing to distinguish democracy from rule of the mob. Truly democratic governments must respect law first, and rule within those bounds. Turing the tyrannt Musharref out in favor of a tyrannt-legislature or freely elected tyrannt is no solution.
McCarthy is dead accurate.

19 Cognito  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:54:09am

Fascinating developments.

It's easy to be alarmist following an event like Bhutto's assassination, but then again people probably thought the same about Franz Ferdinand.

20 MJ  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:54:15am

Pakistan in Peril: John Bolton on Bhutto's death
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

21 yaacov ben moshe  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:54:23am

Finally some one had the courage to say it in the MSM. We've been blogging it for years - maybe now it'll break though!

22 tripster  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:55:29am
For the United States, the question is whether we learn nothing from repeated, inescapable lessons that placing democratization at the top of our foreign policy priorities is high-order folly.

Democratization only, is not the answer. Not when Islam's battle cry is you're either with us or dead.

23 Mister Ghost  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:56:27am

Maybe the US can pay off the Jihadists in Pakistan and call it an Awakening Council...

24 Thanos  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:56:31am

Musharraf's been tap-dancing across the razor wire for several years, his feet are getting tired, he's making mistakes, and he needs some help, not more of the stick.

25 Lizard by the Bay  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:56:56am
Whether we get round to admitting it or not, in Pakistan, our quarrel is with the people.

Damn, that is a man who does not bury the lead. And yes, sadly, everything he said is true. If the Pakistani President was truly representitive of the people, he would be President Osama Bin Laden (despite being an Arab).

26 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:57:15am

re: #16 hermit

Yet more proof of taqqiya, where it has been said in the past that Christians, Jewish, and Muslim faiths all worship the same g_d, but at the same time, their names aren't the same because they're different... Aren't paradoxes fun?

27 pat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:57:27am

Exactly the point I made last night. Pakistan is a Muslim Clockwork Orange. A failed chaotic cesspit of a country that likely has not ended it's descent into hell. A vicious, blood thirsty people, born and bred on Saudi wahhabism mixed with ignorant tribal savages that view themselves as world conquerors. And there is no end in sight, for in the current Islamic world, the more blood thirsty the message, the more the Imam makes from tithes and media sales.

28 Cognito  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:57:46am

re: #20 MJ

Pakistan in Peril: John Bolton on Bhutto's death
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Whoa. Bolton says some things there that I think might fly in the face of some of the comments I've seen here:

BOLTON: I don't think that's the question for the United States. I think for us the main strategic interest is the security of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. And I think by acceding to Benazir Bhutto's desire to get back into the game in Pakistan, seeing her as somebody as an alternative to Musharraf, we, in effect, helped precipitate this dynamic which has led to her tragic assassination. It's hard to see how that was the road to success.

BOLTON: Well, I think this ought to tell us not to try to micro-manage what goes on in a country like this. What we've got now is a prescription for chaos. That country is on the verge. We'll have to see what happens in the cities tomorrow, whether riots break out. This is exactly what the Islamic fundamentalists wanted, because now Musharraf himself has come under even greater criticism. The country is extremely unstable and control of those nuclear weapons is now up for grabs.

Wow.

29 Sponge  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:57:48am

Well, this is a true captain obvious moment. It is so painfully obvious that what he says is true, but the world still buries its collective head in the sand and preaches how we must maintain tolerance.

30 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:58:13am

Rome did it to the peoples they conquered...they killed off the resistance and then brought civilization and Roman law to the lands they conquered.

We have to take the same course with the Jihadis. Kill them off and then bring civilization to who's left...if there are any.

They are merciless and we have to be even more merciless.

31 daughter of patriots  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:58:14am

If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they’ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto.

...and Theo Van Gogh, and Buddhist bicylists in Malaysia, and nuns in Thailand, and priests in Iraq, and 3,000+ innocents on Sep. 11, 2001...as the list continues.

32 alegrias  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:58:15am

re: #18 Texas Joel

The US government is failing to distinguish democracy from rule of the mob. Truly democratic governments must respect law first, and rule within those bounds. Turing the tyrannt Musharref out in favor of a tyrannt-legislature or freely elected tyrannt is no solution.
McCarthy is dead accurate.

* * *
Musharraf's hardly a tyrant compared to say Hugo Chavez or Saddam H.

Musharraf's stepped out of his military uniform, was willing to work with Bhutto, was holding elections, goes after his own citizens who are terrorists, and is walking a tight-rope trying to encourage average Pakistanis towards modernity.

33 Just Another Four-letter Word  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:58:33am
"Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence. If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they’ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto."

...it just doesn't get more succint than this.

(What part of "Kill them before they kill us" don't we understand?)

JAFLW

34 loppyd  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:58:54am

re: #1 BigMac

So... that happened.


Funniest line in that movie. Filmed in my neck of the woods...

35 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:58:58am

re: #19 Cognito

Fascinating developments.

It's easy to be alarmist following an event like Bhutto's assassination, but then again people probably thought the same about Franz Ferdinand.

Very true. No-one in June 1914 could have predicted it would end in a four year long war, the worst anyone up to that time had ever seen.

36 godfrey  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:59:08am

re: #2 Drained Brain


And the reason for this is that the Koran is not reformable. It's wishful thinking that any "reformist" commentary is ever going to trump Islam's central claim that the Koran was dictated.

In Islam, the scriptural grounds for jihad are eternal.

That is why there will be no peace on this planet until the Koran is brutally, methodically, incontrovertibly, and finally discredited as the fraud it is, and the results of this process broadcast far and wide into the Islamic world, in every one of their languages, in plain language that even morons can understand. This can be done.

37 pat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:59:30am

You would think after Hamas State would realize that it's models are wrong. But you would be wrong on that.

38 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:00:18am

re: #13 Render

I wish I could give you a million dings.

39 Opinionated  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:00:33am

What the US needs in the Middle East is corrupt leaders that subjugate the people and do the US's bidding.

Unfortunately we only have that in Israel.

Olmert Caves in to US: No Construction in Har Homa, Atarot

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

40 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:00:39am

re: #13 Render

re: #3 EtNorskTroll

Funny.

I tend to think the same way about neo-nazi's and their willing supporters as well.

DEHUMANIZER,
R

Don't be so hard on yourself, Render~!

Just because the RNC (a group you support in the WoT) won't denounce that anti-Semitic, loser who running for POTUS (Ron Paul), doesn't mean that you need to denounce yourself here at LGF...!

Be kind to yourself this week. It is the Christmas season, you know.

~Norsk Troll

41 Athos  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:00:44am

re: #24 Thanos

Musharraf's been tap-dancing across the razor wire for several years, his feet are getting tired, he's making mistakes, and he needs some help, not more of the stick.


I think he needs some stick to help - not be beaten about the head with a stick.

42 Thanos  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:00:46am

re: #23 Mister Ghost

Maybe the US can pay off the Jihadists in Pakistan and call it an Awakening Council...


No, but they can buy some tribal leaders for a period... see my war chest post from June of last year -- then I was speaking of Afghanistan -- but the same strategy can be applied to Pakistan.

In the end to win in Afghanistan you have to do three things: Kick everyone’s ass, demonstrate that you will persist, and then buy all the local warlords to your side. The warchest needs to re-open in southern Afghanistan, and we need to use it to corner Omar and potentially Bin Laden. This is how the Russians failed, they did not persist and they did not buy allies.

The last time the region was truly conquered, Alexander the Great fought long and hard against a nimble opponent who always ran away to fight another day. In the end Alexander bought off all of the Grey Wolf’s allies and thus conquered him, as detailed in Steven Pressfield’s great book, “The Virtue of War“. Alexander ended the campaign by defeating Spitamenes Oxyartes and marrying his daughter, Roxana, who bore his son Alexander IV.

43 ROPMA  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:01:28am

We need to find someone like this to take care of the jihaddies

44 ShumBaayaMyLord  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:02:07am

The comment about a "spendthrift government" unwilling to put our armed forces on a situationally appropriate war footing is spot-on.

Everyone with any sense knows that the mid-term Congressional elections punished the GOP for the excesses of earmarking, Tom DeLay-style largesse, and Jack Abramoff-style malfeasance. (And it's a shame that the Alaska Senate delegation hasn't been incarcerated.) The GOP was *not* being slapped on Iraq.

But the Reid/Pelosi junta would have everyone believe that they floated into power (like so much effluent) due to Iraq and similar War-on-Jihad issues. Result? No one has any real competent , mindful handle on our government's budgetary levers.

This is no way to run a fight for survival.

45 Shr_Nfr  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:02:08am

Its all Bush's fault. - Not that I believe that, but I am sure it will be posted by the usual suspects on the usual sites.

46 blutonazi98  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:02:11am

ultimately it is the people who will bare responsibility for their own government. regardless if it is a dictatorship or pure majority rules democracy.

47 TimK  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:02:20am

There have always been plenty of Muslims willing to die for a Allah. These Jihidis think/believe that they are doing Allah's will and are willing to die for it.
This concept is not unusual in this area. We should help them reach their goal of dying for their cause. On the other hand, even the less crazy Muslims have a limited concept and acceptance of Representitive govt. and we should not get upset that these people are not grasping the concept of Democracy.
It is like trying to teach a pig to sing: you will get frustrated and the pig gets annoyed.

48 Abu Lahab  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:02:46am

It's impossible to make jihadists realize what democracy is; that's not a question! But the case with Pakistan is not only that, but also that the one trying to bring democracy in their country was a woman !
That's already too much for their heads to comprehend.
A jihadist looks at Musharaf as a foe, but as a man-foe. He will never be able to look up at a women as an "equal foe". Her place is well-defined in the teachings of his "peaceful" religion. She is lower than being a foe or a threat.
Bhutto's presence threatened this entire system of women abuse and humiliation.
Democratic Islamic Country is the silliest oxymoron I have yet to hear!

49 thecapitalist  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:02:49am

Just leave Pakistan alone, and the Jihadist will infight themselves to death. Any excursion could easily be rectified by the Indian army.

50 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:03:51am

re: #43 ROPMA

We need to find someone like this to take care of the jihaddies


Or perhaps someone like this:
[Link: www.mimenta.com...]

51 rawmuse  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:04:51am

re: #30 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Rome did it to the peoples they conquered...they killed off the resistance and then brought civilization and Roman law to the lands they conquered.

We have to take the same course with the Jihadis. Kill them off and then bring civilization to who's left...if there are any.

They are merciless and we have to be even more merciless.

I suggested this early on in the Iraq conquest. We simply are too civilized. If someone killed a Roman soldier, 10 civilians were rounded up and executed. The killings stopped, eventually. Cruel, yes. Effective, yes. We in the West will never do it.

52 MJ  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:05:12am

re: #37 pat

You would think after Hamas State would realize that it's models are wrong. But you would be wrong on that.

That's because the State Department is never wrong. For example, the Washington Post has a lead article on how State maneuvered Bhutto to going back to Pakistan. Instead of being critical, the pro-Jihadi Robin Wright concluded that State had no option.
The counter argument was made by Bolton. See post above.

53 Athos  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:05:46am

To defeat an ideology it has to be utterly defeated and discredited - made to be seen as either so repulsive that none but the very small fringe types will embrace it or so defeated that none will want to be associated with its failure.

As long as there are some who try to 'understand' it, negotiate with it, accept its right to exist because they are unable to make a judgment on its morality - the ideology will continue. Think of it as a cancer...except remission is fundamentally unacceptable. Only cure is acceptable.

54 Desert Dog  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:05:52am

re: #50 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Someone, anyone...stop this maddness before get one:

Like This

55 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:06:03am
Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence.

McCarthy hits on the same thing I've written about countless times - psuedorealism, where the diplomats think that if they simply state something enough times or put it on a piece of paper that it will come to fruition. It's ignorance at the basest level of the nature of the conflict - and yes folks, it is a conflict. Jihad is a war, and Musharraf remains sitting on a fence because to take sides would mean putting himself in jeopardy of being the next victim.

He does just enough to remain in power, lurching from crisis to crisis. A crackdown might happen, but how long lasting it might be is an open ended question. I wouldn't put a lot of money on a sustained effort against the jihadis, and even if Bhutto had survived this attack, she too would have succumbed to the same self-preservation instinct and backed off the jihadis.

After all, that's how they grew to prominence under Bhutto's regime more than a decade ago. Before that, the Pakistanis entered into a devil's deal with the tribes giving them autonomy, which goes back to the very founding of Pakistan in the first place. Those early mistakes have become entrenched and the lack of will, combined with the self-preservation insticts of the leaders, means that the situation will remain fractured for the foreseeable future.

Expecting the US to go into these tribal regions and do Pakistan's dirty work for them isn't realistic at this point, and the downside is considerable. Containment might be our best option, and that means turning to India in a big way.

56 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:06:06am

re: #3 EtNorskTroll


...but I'm beginning to think that Jihadi's aren't humans.


They are human...just like the Nazis were human, and so many others before them who have committed great evil in this world are very much human.

Animals are not capable of evil, only humans are.

57 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:06:28am
58 McNug  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:06:55am

re: #43 ROPMA

We need to find someone like this to take care of the jihaddies

All of this generation's George Pattons got put on Ritalin when they were kids and subsequently became Humanities Majors instead of joining the army.

59 pat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:07:10am

re: #50 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

re: #43 ROPMA

We need to find someone like this to take care of the jihaddies


Or perhaps someone like this:
[Link: www.mimenta.com...]

Or, someone who did.
[Link: faculty-staff.ou.edu...]

60 Opinionated  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:08:52am

re: #45 Shr_Nfr

Its all Bush's fault. - Not that I believe that, but I am sure it will be posted by the usual suspects on the usual sites.

A broken clock is sometimes right.

And Bush/Rice frequently are the fault.

Their insistence on fitting a round peg of Democracy into the square peg of undemocratic violent Islam is a sign of irrationality and delusions.

61 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:08:56am

re: #59 pat

re: #50 The Pulchritudinous Patriot


re: #43 ROPMA

We need to find someone like this to take care of the jihaddies

Or perhaps someone like this:
[Link: www.mimenta.com...]

Or, someone who did.
[Link: faculty-staff.ou.edu...]


Ahhh dear Alexander...another brilliant man.

62 Orde  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:09:14am

Good article about why the neocon (Rudy) democracy approach won't work in Pakistan, but the conclusion to just kill so many jihadists is oversimplistic. Pakistan of all countries is steeped in the most extreme forms of jihad indoctrination, and so (in conjunction with, not in lieu of, the military approach) the indoctrination--the mind--has to be targeted as well, and that means on the offense going through Egypt (both the Al-Azhar folks and the Muslim Brotherhood ideologues), while on the defense challenging and marginalizing (much less aiding and abetting) Saudi Salafism. In addition to this ideological front, to the extent that the neocons (Rudy) insist on persisting with their government-changing obsession, at least pick the right countries: and again, this would be Egypt.

63 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:09:16am
64 alegrias  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:09:44am

#10 addendum

Benazir Bhutto though educated in elite schools, did nothing to reform Pakistan's madrassa school system of radical islamist indocrination during her two terms as Pakistan's leader, according to Col Ralph Peters' article at #10.

According to Arnaud de Borchegrave (friend of Benazir Bhutto's interviewed yesterday by Greta Van Susteren at Fox's website), Pakistan's madrassas have "graduated" another 5 million islamists since 9/11.

It's hard enough to shut down Saudi Islamic Academies that preach jihadism in enlightened, democrat-controlled Northern Virginia; imagine how hard it must be for Musharraf to close down or reform Pakistan's madrassas against the will of his own people.

Musharraf needs our help, support and prayers because he's riding the islamist Tiger.

65 Tigger2005  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:10:05am

Kamal Nawash of freemuslims.org is in agreement with John Bolton:

While there is no conclusive answer to who killed former Pakistani prime minister Bhutto, so far the only claim of responsibility has come from an Al Qaeda leader in Afghanistan, who posted the claim of responsibility on an Italian Web site. Al Qaeda posted the following message: "We terminated the most precious American asset which vowed to defeat the mujahideen. (holy warriors)"

Bhutto was an outspoken critic of Al Qaeda and other extremist Islamist groups. Consequently, Al Qaeda and other Islamist groups hated her for her rhetoric, for supporting secularism and for being a woman.

While we can't know for sure who killed Bhutto, on two occasions, Al Qaeda has also tried to kill Pakistani president Musharraf. This brings us to the state of emergency that was enacted by Musharraf in November to "defend Pakistan from extremists and terrorists." At that time the United States and much of the world criticized Musharraf and pressured him to lift the state of emergency and to resign as army chief, a position he held alongside the position of president.

Currently, the only force that can keep Pakistan intact and safe from the terrorists is the Pakistani military. The Pakistani military and president Musharraf know better than any outsider what it takes to keep Pakistan from failing and falling in the hands of terrorists and extremists. It is a mistake for the United States or any other country to interfere in the internal affairs of Pakistan by pressuring the Pakistani government to take any action that Pakistan does not want to take. It should be left up to the Pakistani people to decide whether emergency rule stays or not, whether the president wears an army uniform or not and when and whether elections are held.

The wrong interference by the United States and the weakening of the Pakistani military's control over Pakistan may produce a repeat of the disaster that brought clerical rule to Iran. In 1979, the Shah of Iran was deposed when the military refused to back him and the country fell in the hands of religious fundamentalist who continue to rule the country until today. This must not happen in Pakistan. The United States needs to be more emphatic to the particular circumstances of Pakistan and not to pressure Pakistan to do anything that is a threat to the stability and security of the country. If president Musharraf abuses his powers it is up to the majority of the Pakistani people to stop him and not foreign governments. The Pakistanis have a long democratic tradition and are capable of protecting their rights and institutions. An example is when Pakistani lawyers took to the streets to demonstrate against the weakening of the judiciary.

While democracy is a great ideal, Pakistan is currently facing turmoil and the Pakistanis need a strong president, a strong central government and a strong military to keep order. This remains the case despite allegations that the Pakistani military has been infiltrated by extremist elements. The United States should take no action to undermine the power of the central government, the military or president Musharraf, who has been a great ally in fighting Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Currently, the Pakistani military has more than 100, 000 troops fighting extremists on the Pakistani/Afghanistan border at a miniscule cost to the United States.

66 pat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:10:10am

re: #61 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

And handsome. lol

67 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:10:25am

re: #49 thecapitalist

That's a serious mistake as the tribes in the NWFP and Warizistan do not accept the Pakistani/Afghan border, which means that they regularly transit between the two countries, further destabilizing both in the process. That's how al Qaeda manages to persist, and that's how the Taliban persist.

Hoping that the jihadis and Islamists beat on each other in a pressure cooker isn't a solution. It's still more wishful thinking, because it's only a short flight between Pakistan and anywhere else in the world.

Jihad knows no boundaries.

68 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:10:34am

re: #2 Drained Brain

Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence.

This appears to be an accurate analysis, unfortunately.

The closest thing we've faced (and it's not a close comparison, except in attitude) is the fanaticism of the Japanese Army during WWII. The Japanese Army was why the atom bombs were needed. The bombs shocked the Japanese government into doing what was needed to end the war, in spite of last minute efforts by the Army to find the phonograph recording of the Emperor's speech and destroy it before it could be broadcast. The Army did "the unthinkable" and invaded the Imperial Palace grounds in its attempts to keep the war alive.

69 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:11:11am
The real Pakistan is a breeding ground of Islamic holy war where, for about half the population, the only thing more intolerable than Western democracy is the prospect of a faux democracy led by a woman

It is a breeding ground because of the indoctrination canters funded by the saudis. The madrassas must be shut down that their ability for new recruits is limited. Otherwise the jihadis killed will only be replaced over and over again the the head of hydra.

70 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:11:25am

re: #66 pat

re: #61 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

And handsome. lol

Yes. I prefer Italians, though.

71 Thanos  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:11:44am

re: #59 pat

re: #50 The Pulchritudinous Patriot


re: #43 ROPMA

We need to find someone like this to take care of the jihaddies

Or perhaps someone like this:
[Link: www.mimenta.com...]

Or, someone who did.
[Link: faculty-staff.ou.edu...]


I've always preferred this portrait of Iskander

72 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:12:12am

Er- indoctrination centers.

73 Tumulus11  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:12:17am

. If free elections were held tomorrow in Pakistan, an older, more violent embodiment of Islamic Rage Boy would be swept into power.

74 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:12:49am

re: #32 alegrias

Musharraf's hardly a tyrant compared to ...

Amen

75 Abu Lahab  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:13:07am

re: #6 Sharmuta

Exactly, the case with the Red Mosque is a good reminder. Neutralizing jihadists is necessary but preventing them from brain-washing younger candidates is more also important.
Shutting down those time-bombs should be Pakistan's first interest.

76 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:13:29am
77 tripster  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:13:49am

re: #67 lawhawk

Jihad knows no boundaries.

Such a simple truth that so few seem to understand. At their own (our) peril.

78 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:14:04am

Hamid Karzai's trying to normalize the Taliban isn't working, either.

79 Desert Dog  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:14:22am

re: #62 Orde

follow the money...it starts at the gas station down the street, heads to Saudi Arabia, and then up to Pakistani madrasas (just to name one place)...we are funding our own would-be doom it seems

When will we finally see Saudi Arabia as our enemy? They smile and talk nice to us, but their real agenda is to set up jihadi crazies all over the world...amazing.

80 pat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:14:37am

re: #71 Thanos

Good one. I believe that is a portrait of his mother on the armor.

81 mean Gene  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:16:05am

Back when Israel pinpoint targeted hamas and hizb;allah and fatah leadership involved in terrorism the next ''leader'' would be far more circumspect.
It got to the point where a faction's militant leader remained totally underground, moving every 3 or 4 hours and only being known by a nickname.
See, that works, because, although his ''people'' were mad as hornets they were also not being effectively led by such a coward.
We need to do this world wide!
It won't stop the occasional coerced female blowing herself (and others) up, or the kidnap victim's car being remotely detonated as he tries to drive home.
But it would be effective.
And, as part of a fitna, an ideological debate, the very idea that Mo would allow his staunchest to cower and hide would draw some away from the jihadi lifestyle.
Ah, but we can only dream.
No country on earth (even Israel quit) will follow this effective tactic.

82 tfc3rid  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:16:09am

re: #73 Tumulus11

Well then it's good that elections are schedule for a few weeks from now!

/sarc

83 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:16:12am

re: #64 alegrias

... riding the islamist Tiger.

Amen again

84 Opinionated  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:16:22am

re: #62 Orde

Hate to break it to you but the Neo-Con position is the one expressed by Andrew McCarthy.

85 Rodan[deleted]  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:16:25am
86 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:16:42am

At the root of so much of the world's problems are the Saudi funded madrassas.

Demolishing every last one one would be a good place to start making the world a better place.

87 tripster  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:17:57am

re: #69 Sharmuta

It is a breeding ground because of the indoctrination canters funded by the saudis. The madrassas must be shut down that their ability for new recruits is limited. Otherwise the jihadis killed will only be replaced over and over again the the head of hydra.

All the more reason to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and start tapping our own resources. Dry up their funding, anyway possible. Starve the bastards and make it harder for them to afford their destructive ways.

88 Tigger2005  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:18:44am

re: #68 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #2 Drained Brain


Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence.

This appears to be an accurate analysis, unfortunately.


The closest thing we've faced (and it's not a close comparison, except in attitude) is the fanaticism of the Japanese Army during WWII. The Japanese Army was why the atom bombs were needed. The bombs shocked the Japanese government into doing what was needed to end the war, in spite of last minute efforts by the Army to find the phonograph recording of the Emperor's speech and destroy it before it could be broadcast. The Army did "the unthinkable" and invaded the Imperial Palace grounds in its attempts to keep the war alive.

Not entirely unthinkable, there was certainly plenty of precedent for violating the sanctity of the Imperial residence. The Shoguns did it frequently. The person of the Emperor was sacred, but pretty much everything else was up for grabs.

Japan is fascinating to me ... it went from medieval to "modern" and became a global power in the space of a couple of decades. I wonder how many Japanese officers and soldiers in WWII were the sons and grandsons of men who had worn topknots and carried swords.

89 Texas Joel  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:20:37am

re: #32 alegrias

re: #18 Texas Joel

The US government is failing to distinguish democracy from rule of the mob. Truly democratic governments must respect law first, and rule within those bounds. Turing the tyrannt Musharref out in favor of a tyrannt-legislature or freely elected tyrannt is no solution.
McCarthy is dead accurate.

* * *
Musharraf's hardly a tyrant compared to say Hugo Chavez or Saddam H.

Musharraf's stepped out of his military uniform, was willing to work with Bhutto, was holding elections, goes after his own citizens who are terrorists, and is walking a tight-rope trying to encourage average Pakistanis towards modernity.

He is not a despicable tyrant at all.
But compared to Chavez or Saddam he is just as much a tyrant.
Tyranny comes not from the goals of the tyrant-- where Musharraf's goals are good ones and Chavez's goals are bad, but instead it comes from the manner of the tyrant. Musharref rules without bound. He may make himself a civilian one day and a general the next day.

The US should do all it can do to keep Musharref in power, and assist him in framing his governance with government. He is a responsible leader who has no interest in war with the US or India and desires modernity for his country. All good.

As I said, we need to distinguish the mode from the goal. Ideally democracy will lead to modern integration into the free world, but tyrant princes or generals who favor progress away from jihad are to be favored over democracies with ill intent.

90 Maine's Michael  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:21:25am

No worries. Our crack State Dept is on the case.

After a little piano playing, Condi is putting in a call to Olmert to get him to slow down on the condo developments in eastern Jerusalem, to help empower the moderate terrorists of Fatah on their march to democracy.

No doubt that will tamp down Pakistani anger, while she fishes around looking for another disgraced ex pakistani politico to parachute in and start shopping away at Musharaf's legs.

Democracy is on the march!

91 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:24:05am

On days like this I sometimes think that the only solution is for US forces to march straight into Mecca and confiscate the that black rock and blast it back into the black void of space from where it came.

92 DrCruel  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:24:05am

Does anyone really think that our enemies in Pakistan are goatherders?

Bhutto was killed because she was a Marxist, not a "democrat". That witch was nothing of the sort - she was in power when the ISI created the Taliban, and in practice she behaved worse than Musharraf.

There is a civil war in Pakistan now - it has been going on for decades - and is being fought between the Russian-backed Marxists and the indigenous Muslim fanatics at present. The general population has practically nothing to say about it. They never have.

If we want to change things in that part of the world, it won't be the defenseless goatherders You'll have to contend with both the Russians and various Muslim factions, none of which are scrupulous in any way. It'll cost you tremendous amounts of wealth and effort for no appreciable gain, and all the contending factions will make your stay as unpleasant as possible.

That's the ugly reality of the situation. No use railing against the pawns; a permanent state of civil war is not their idea and not their fault.

93 Colonel Panik  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:24:58am

Joseph Farah of World Net Daily endorses Duncan Hunter for President.

Regular readers of my column know that I have enthusiastically supported Tom Tancredo for president.

In fact, two years ago, I personally asked Tancredo to run for president because I feared there would be no Republican candidate offering real solutions to America's crisis with illegal immigration and border security.
Last week, Tancredo withdrew from the race and endorsed Mitt Romney for the presidency.

This was a huge mistake by Tancredo. I'm sure he had his reasons. He said he wanted to find a top-tier candidate who was strongest on his pet issue. But, this is the primary season. In the primary season, Americans should pay little attention to the polls and select the very best candidate possible. Actual votes decide who is selected as the party nominees – not polls.

Last week, Tancredo withdrew from the race and endorsed Mitt Romney for the presidency.

This was a huge mistake by Tancredo. I'm sure he had his reasons. He said he wanted to find a top-tier candidate who was strongest on his pet issue. But, this is the primary season. In the primary season, Americans should pay little attention to the polls and select the very best candidate possible. Actual votes decide who is selected as the party nominees – not polls.

Therefore, today I make a new, personal endorsement for the Republican nomination – Duncan Hunter.

I do so with no hesitancy. I do so with great enthusiasm.

In fact, I have previously made it clear just how much admiration and respect I have for Hunter.

He's my guy because on all the major issues facing this country, Hunter is right. And he is a proven leader who gets the job done.

Illegal immigration and border security: Duncan Hunter takes a backseat to no one on this issue – not even Tom Tancredo. He took the initiative long ago to protect the citizens of his own San Diego area by building a virtually impenetrable fence that has cut down human trafficking in the area by nearly 100 percent.
Threat of Islamo-fascism: Hunter recognizes the gravity of the war in which America finds itself, whether we like it or not. Hunter has a strong military background and would make an effective leader in a conflict that will not go away unless we destroy the enemy.
Our cultural meltdown: Hunter rejects the madness of political correctness and multiculturalism that is ripping America apart at the seams. He is a man of God who will stand for what is morally right no matter the consequences.
The economy: Duncan Hunter will fight the mindless globalization that is destroying jobs in America and transferring them abroad – bringing in return cheap goods that are often unsafe and little more than junk. He will also cut taxes and revamp the unfair and highly intrusive tax system – both of which will stimulate the American economy.
Matters of life and death: Hunter is steadfastly and consistently pro-life – at both ends of the life spectrum.
There is much more to say about his excellent record and his fearless championing of all that is good and decent about America.

The point is this: We don't have to settle for less. We don't have to settle for an imitation of the real thing. We don't have to settle for someone who is right most of the time.

Duncan Hunter is the real deal.

94 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:25:27am

re: #88 Tigger2005

You're right. That's why I put unthinkable in quotes.

Are you familiar with George Bailey Sansom?

His trilogy (see the three "A History of Japan" books under WORKS, 1958/61/63) is a classic. I read it twice in college.

95 loppyd  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:25:47am

re: #76 Iron Fist

Islam is at war with us whether we wish it or not. Sooner or later we are going to have to face that fact.

Don't worry. Obama is going to have all kinds of nice chats with the Islamic leaders and all will be solved.

96 thecapitalist  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:25:47am

re: #67 lawhawk

The threat of dirty bombs exists today, with Musharraf in power. Pakistan does not have any long-range nuclear delivery system. China and India will never allow Pakistan to develop such system.

97 alegrias  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:26:09am

re: #85 Rodan

Bush's biggest mistake was not telling the American people the truth about our enemie.
Also he didn't mobilize our Military for total war.

* * *
The American people ought to have learned who this enemy is by now! It's the same folks who since the founding of the modern state of Israel have been trying to wipe out that UN-created country in a terrorist neighborhood.

Robert F. Kennedy was killed by an Israel-hating Palestinian. That ought to have been a clue since 1968.

The 1972 Olympics featured murdering islamists killing peaceful Olympic athletes, live on TV. That ought to have been a clue.

1979, American hostages were kept 444 days by islamist terrorists. That ought to have been a clue even DJhimmy Carter and his speechwriter Chris Matthews could have picked up.

1981- Anwar Sadat was killed by islamists including Dr. Al Zawahiri of AlQaeda fame; that ought to have been a clue.

Clinton Years 1993-2000 featured several islamist attacks against America, not that our President at the time picked up on those acts of war against us...

98 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:27:07am

So...let's give them a state.

99 MrMom  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:27:22am

re: #40 EtNorskTroll

I smell something...bad. Anyone else? What is that?

100 Maine's Michael  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:29:49am

re: #62 Orde

The neocon agenda was not 'elections uber alles'.

It was based on making the nations safe for democracy thru building the institutions, over time, necessary for democracy to take root and survive.

When the Iraq war turned out to be horribly mismanaged, quick fixes and photo ops were required, and hence the quick 'elections', which did nothing to stabilize Iraq (or the 'palestinians', for that matter), but which provided a definable short term goal the Admin could claim credit for having achieved. By this time, of course, the neo-cons had been essentially purged from the Admin, having taken blame for a policy that was warped to please Saudi Arabia and the 'arab street', and doomed to failure.

Which brings us back to the point of the article. You need to kill your recalcitrant enemies, not put them on the ballot.

101 Canadian Guy  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:30:09am

re: #93 Colonel Panik

Too bad he has no chance.

102 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:30:59am

re: #88 Tigger2005

If you are interested in Japan from 1880 to WWII you MUST read History of the Pacific War by Soburo Ienaga.

It is a profound work of history and lucid analysis. Chapter 2 focuses on the methods used by the imperialists to control knowledge and dictate education. His lessons taught are imminently applicable to today's HAMAS indoctrinators.

103 yaacov ben moshe  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:32:21am

This is very good.
I remember my step daughter, at fifteen years old, cornering me after having been denied a bid to attend a "rave" in another state with her seventeen year old boyfriend. She had argued all of the familiar teenage arguments about trust (how can you ever trust me if you don't give me a chance to prove that I can be trusted? etc...) she had made her bid for respect (I'm not a baby anymore, you treat me like a child, etc..,) and she let us know how entirely unreasonable our position was (every other kid I know is going, etc...,) and her mother and I had been united in telling her that it was inappropriate. After a while, her mother left the house and she approached me from behind as I typed. "Yaacov", she said, "do you consider me an equal?" The fiendishly cynical adolescent tactic of using an over-simplified version of one's deeply cherished principals to coerce you to give them what they want. Just like a besieged parent dealing with a sociopath (that's what teenagers are) we in the civilized world have to look the rest of the world and tell them "No, we are not yet fully equal. You have the rights but you are not up to the responsibilities that the rights require. Until you are experienced and mature enough that you will not kill yourself and others, I'll have to help you decide these things."
The weakness of the neo-con position is that they take "All Men are Created Equal" too literally. This allows the radical left and the Caliphateists to torment them into advocating premature equality. There must be a lower limit of civic ability, below which a population cannot be trusted to act in their own best interest. The right to self-determination may be inalienable but THE ABILITY to participate in that system is affected by education, experience and culture. This is how multiculturalism strikes at the heart of western democracy. We must learn how to discriminate who among the peoples of the earth are our cultural equals and who we have to help either by controlling the gateways to equality or (if they insist) by showing them The Pearly Gates.

104 itellu3times  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:32:41am

I have a lot of trouble with the way this article states things. Just where, exactly, are these jihadists you want to kill? I fear this is just a combination of blood lust and the law enforcement mentality, a particularly ugly and ineffective conceptualization of the whole thing.

What needs to be killed is the idea of jihad. We need to be aggressive - against the idea. The jihadis themselves, are almost secondary. That is, if we only target the actual perps, we're playing defense only, and must always lose, for even if we get 99.99% of them we're not even threatening to get 100%, and they have a base of millions.

No, I don't like this article at all.

105 bullrat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:35:03am
"But we should at least stop fooling ourselves. Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence. If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they’ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto."

So true. Hey world - wake the hell up!

106 Spirit93  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:35:28am

"Whether we get round to admitting it or not, in Pakistan, our quarrel is with the people."

Sorry, that goes a little too far for me. It seems to me that if the islamists could win (real) elections they wouldn't need to assassinate their opponents.

And I'm all for killing jihadis.

107 Maine's Michael  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:37:08am

I think people do not understand the neo-con agenda.

It is simply Jacksonian policy.

The arab influenced policies we have seen emanating from the white house and state department are distorted, containing lethal modifications that make them unworkable. Cart before the horse, etc etc etc., all designed to please the arab street.

108 Maine's Michael  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:39:45am

re: #39 Opinionated

So true.

109 Canadian Guy  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:41:35am

re: #106 Spirit93

"Whether we get round to admitting it or not, in Pakistan, our quarrel is with the people."

Sorry, that goes a little too far for me. It seems to me that if the islamists could win (real) elections they wouldn't need to assassinate their opponents.

And I'm all for killing jihadis.

From September 11, 2007

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf -- a key U.S. ally -- is less popular in his own country than al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, according to a poll of Pakistanis conducted last month by an anti-terrorism organization.

Additionally, nearly three-fourths of poll respondents said they oppose U.S. military action against al Qaeda and the Taliban inside Pakistan, according to results from the poll conducted by the independent polling organization Terror Free Tomorrow.

"We have conducted 23 polls all over the Muslim world, and this is the most disturbing one we have conducted," said Ken Ballen, the group's head. "Pakistan is the one Muslim nation that has nuclear weapons, and the people who want to use them against us -- like the Taliban and al Qaeda -- are more popular there than our allies like Musharraf."

The poll was conducted for Terror Free Tomorrow by D3 Systems of Vienna, Virginia., and the Pakistan Institute for Public Opinion. Interviews were conducted August 18-29, face-to-face with 1,044 Pakistanis across 105 urban and rural sampling points in all four provinces across the nation. Households were randomly selected.

According to poll results, bin Laden has a 46 percent approval rating. Musharraf's support is 38 percent. U.S. President George W. Bush's approval: 9 percent.

[Link: edition.cnn.com...]

110 MJ  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:41:55am

Maine's Michael,
Did you read this opinion piece in Ha'aretz?

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

111 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:42:32am

#58 McNug 12/28/07 10:06:55 am 0


All of this generation's George Pattons got put on Ritalin when they were kids and subsequently became Humanities Majors instead of joining the army.

You have no idea how much this hits home for me. I am struggling right now with the decision of whether or not to put my middle son on something. While smart enough, he does seem to have a problem focusing. The work he turns in is A and B work but he then doesn't finish some of his assignments because he gets distracted. He's 12 and since the age of 3 has talked of joining the Army as if it is his destiny or something. He's very active to the point that it's irritating to be around. He can't make his body be still. If sitting, will tap a pencil non-stop or something. Both of my boys are extremely active and that's the kind of boys I want, not the type that sit all day playing games. If there are other parents out there that have been through this, I would love your advice. I don't trust lefties on something as critical as putting children on mind altering medications.

112 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:43:06am

Oprah, the backlash

Never thought I'd say this, but George C. Looney comes off pretty intelligent next to her.

113 Opinionated  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:43:40am

re: #104 itellu3times

Jihadist Islam will continue to be a problem- maybe forever until they triumph- or until the source of its ideology, funds and political power is removed.

The hive are the Whabbis in Saudi Arabia.

114 CLLRusso  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:44:12am

I agree 100% with McCarthy. We should have learned from dhimmi Carter
and the Oslo "peace" agreements between the PLO and Israel and Clinton, and Bush's insistence that Israel give up historic land. Islamics are on the march aided by American insistence on democracy and appeasement. As much as I hate to say this, now is not the time to turn the other cheek, appeasement has never won anything for freedom and democracy. The enemy has always had to be beaten into submission.

It is long past time that Bush and company saw the handwriting on the wall, the Saudis are not our friends, and this country has to get those backstabber's out of here. The majority of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis, over 50% of Saudis do not have a good opinion of America or Americans, yet we are allowing them student visas by the bushel! They are not here to "learn about freedom, democracy and the American way", they are here to take over with their Muslim Student Association, CAIR, etc.

Saudi Arabia is the enemy.

115 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:44:48am

re: #112 JammieWearingFool

Hey, wrong thread, dummy...

116 Maine's Michael  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:46:12am

re: #114 CLLRusso

Saudi Arabia is the enemy.

Not ours.

/Baker Admin

117 Salem  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:46:31am

Now this, at least, is a scholarly, well-thought-out opinion piece. I think comparing bin Laden's popularity in Pakistan to the relative division in America's current political environment, more than ten months away from the actual election, is still a little trite, though. Heck, I'm surprised bin Laden only got 46%. That's already kind of promising. But McCarthy's point about the futility of making nice with jihidis is on target for sure. They don't respect fairness and rationality. They all claim that martyrdom is what they want, why not give it to them?

118 Maine's Michael  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:48:28am

re: #111 AirForceWife

Don't do it.

Recent research indicates that essentially all of these kids diagnosed with ADD turn out NORMAL as young adults.

Don't let him get labelled, either.

119 Render  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:48:32am

Leading members of the Republican Party have denounced Ron Paul - on a regular basis. Rudy denounced the smarmy little racist bastard in the middle of a televised debate.

Just as both they, and leading members of the Democrat Party, have repeatedly denounced David Duke.

Just as we, the collective commentators of LGF have denounced Ron Paul, and everybody else that supports racists and neo-nazi supporters, anywhere on the planet.

REPEATEDLY,
R

120 LuckyDog  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:48:42am

Sadly, the task before us is to make Jihadists hate war more than we do. No small effort required there!

121 Jack Reacher  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:49:19am
And, given the refusal of the richest, most spendthrift government in American history to grow our military to an appropriate war footing, we may not have the resources to do it.

To paraphrase Homer Simpson, it's painful 'cause it's true. Over 400 F15s--many built in the 70s and early 80s--are indefinitely grounded for structural faults. Their vastly superior replacement, the F22 Raptor, has only recently entered service, and the Pentagon and Congress seem to have agreed that 180 is a sufficient production run. With Russia's bombers once again probing our perimeter defenses, and China furiously expanding and modernizing its military, this is madness.

But at least Medicare now pays for prescriptions.

122 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:50:32am

re: #85 Rodan

Bush's biggest mistake was not telling the American people the truth about our enemie.
Also he didn't mobilize our Military for total war.

And what would mobilizing for total war look like. It really seems to me most americans are not perpared for what that would mean or look like. 100 hour wars and all air wars seem to be the limit of their support. Total war requires boots on the graound and time, neither of witch seems to be supported by the popuation or governing bodies.
Top

123 nyc redneck  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:51:15am

re: #27 pat

Exactly the point I made last night. Pakistan is a Muslim Clockwork Orange. A failed chaotic cesspit of a country that likely has not ended it's descent into hell. A vicious, blood thirsty people, born and bred on Saudi wahhabism mixed with ignorant tribal savages that view themselves as world conquerors. And there is no end in sight, for in the current Islamic world, the more blood thirsty the message, the more the Imam makes from tithes and media sales.

i wonder if andrew macarthy saw the movie "28 days later"? moslem seethers and rampagers remind me of the rage infected people in that movie. the jihadis we see killing, burning and destroying are infected w/ islam. i think macarthy has a well reasoned argument that pc mumbo-jumbo won't work w/ them. as we try that, they grow in number, making the inevitable clash for our own survival all the more difficult.

124 Render  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:53:22am

re: #122 1SG(ret)

Top, I don't think the Pentagon brass is all that interested in a massive draftee army either...

With massive amateur armies comes massive casualties.

HISTORICALLY,
R

125 Salem  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:53:42am

re: #104 itellu3times

I have a lot of trouble with the way this article states things. Just where, exactly, are these jihadists you want to kill? I fear this is just a combination of blood lust and the law enforcement mentality, a particularly ugly and ineffective conceptualization of the whole thing.

What? You deny the holy war cry of "Git 'R Done!"? Heretic! After I get finished hog-tying this steer and eating this cheeseburger, I'm gonna give you such a dirty look!


What needs to be killed is the idea of jihad. We need to be aggressive - against the idea. The jihadis themselves, are almost secondary. That is, if we only target the actual perps, we're playing defense only, and must always lose, for even if we get 99.99% of them we're not even threatening to get 100%, and they have a base of millions.



*BLINK* Ah, um... Alright... Good luck with that.

126 peck  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:54:22am

re: #27 pat

Maybe it is time the state dept. figured out that we are up against a Ghengis Khan situation rather than appearing in a Disney movie.

127 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:54:29am

witch=which PIMF hope Dianna didn't see that.

128 Spirit93  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:54:29am

re: #109 Canadian Guy

From the same article:

There were a few bright spots in the poll results, however. Opposition leader Benazir Bhutto -- a relatively moderate and progressive figure, as well as a woman -- had a 63 percent approval rating.

Seventy-five percent of poll respondents said suicide bombings are rarely or never justified.

129 Opinionated  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:56:27am

I saw clips of Benazir Bhutto on TV yesterday where she explained that she would be safe because true Muslims know that it is forbidden to attack women.

Where was she the last half century?

It was even just her Western education, her being Western is outlook, that caused even her to ignore the truth of Jihadist Islam even as she should have known better. We, like her, ignore the truth at our peril.

130 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:56:39am

re: #124 Render

I agree. Not advacating it!

Top

131 Maine's Michael  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:57:43am

re: #110 MJ

Thanks for bringing ti to my attention. Nice bit of behind the scenes.

Let's hope that she becomes even less influential as time goes on.

Surely Bush can see that everything she touches turns to shit?

132 Sabraguy  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:59:04am

The Clash of Civilizations moved a step closer this week. It was the appeasement of Hitler's Germany in the 1930's that led to WWII - a war that could have been avoided had Hitler been forced to reign in his aggression.

The analogy is not exact, but close enough; by failing to crack down mercilessly on the jihadis, and more importantly on the regimes that tolerate them, the West has allowed a monster to develop. The genie is out of the bottle, the blood that will have to be shed to put it back will make Iraq look like a sideshow.

133 Russkilitlover  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:59:58am

re: #24 Thanos

Musharraf's been tap-dancing across the razor wire for several years, his feet are getting tired, he's making mistakes, and he needs some help, not more of the stick.

Totally agree. Beating up on Mushaaraf will embolden his enemies and pressure those who may be nominally supporting him now within the Paki gov and military/intellengence services. If they think he's lost support from the US, they'll bail out, too to save their own skins. Which would leave...what? Far as I've heard to date, our leaders and wannabees are dangerously clueless.

134 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:00:15am

re: #124 Render

re: #122 1SG(ret)

Top, I don't think the Pentagon brass is all that interested in a massive draftee army either...

With massive amateur armies comes massive casualties.

HISTORICALLY,
R

And look at the last draftee army we had! Dope-heads, fragging their officers and non-coms. A phenomenal spike in self-inflicted wounds and general malingering.

/ranting

135 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:00:59am

#88 Tigger2005 12/28/07 10:18:44 am reply quote report 0


Japan is fascinating to me ... it went from medieval to "modern" and became a global power in the space of a couple of decades. I wonder how many Japanese officers and soldiers in WWII were the sons and grandsons of men who had worn topknots and carried swords.

The difference though, between both the Japanese and Germans (during the war) and the Islamists, is that while they were just as brutal, the similarities stop there. Both the Japanese and German people were a resourceful and industrious people. Separate from their brutality, they were not self-destructive, third world people. That is a big part of why their countries could be rebuilt after WWll. If Japan had won the war, they would not have became self-destructive, third world people.

136 Russkilitlover  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:01:16am

re: #111 AirForceWife

Just say no! Drugs is drugs.

137 Opinionated  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:01:39am

re: #132 Sabraguy

We go to the polls soon.

Will we vote as if we truly understand the stakes? Probably not.

138 nyc redneck  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:02:12am

re: #111 AirForceWife

i have a friend whose 2 nephews were put on ritalin. all i know is that now, 6 yrs later, the parents regret it. info has come out that it can interfere w/ growth and may have no benefit at all. you should research that drug before giving it to your kids.

139 bullrat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:02:27am

re: #129 Opinionated

I saw clips of Benazir Bhutto on TV yesterday where she explained that she would be safe because true Muslims know that it is forbidden to attack women.


For goodness sakes... none so blind as those that will not see.

___
Sharpen the sticks, cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the chimps of war.

140 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:03:53am
141 Salem  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:04:02am

Admittedly, the article hardly puts a bridge between the problem and the solution. But no single opinion piece will do that for a problem of this scale.

142 Inquisitive  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:04:39am

re: #58 McNugExcuse me but what generation are you talking about?
I dislike your comment generalizing kids on Ritalin and not joining the army. My son has had to take it since 1St grade---he is now a jr. in high school and all he talks about is joining the Marines and has talked to the Marine recruiters several times.

143 A.W.  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:06:22am

Well, we can hope that this might be Pakistan's 9-11. Maybe even the Muslim world's 9-11.

But I refuse to believe that "the people" of Pakistan are our enemies any more than i consider the terrorists in iraq the representatives of the people there. I know too many decent pakistanis to believe that we can just assign collective blame, if that is what the author means, and maybe i am wrong in my interpretation.

But that doesn't dilute the basic correctness of one argument. Freedom isn't free. and sometimes you have to kill alot of fascists, or in this case, islamofascists, to secure freedom.

144 itellu3times  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:07:39am

re: #141 Salem

Admittedly, the article hardly puts a bridge between the problem and the solution. But no single opinion piece will do that for a problem of this scale.

Yeah. His targets are those who think it can be done totally nonviolently.

My problem is that in making an argument against them, he still buys into something like the "law-enforcement" view, which is equally faulty.

145 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:09:52am

re: #134 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You don't have to tell me, I started my service in 74. I lived through some of the results of that mess. I wasn't saying it's what we should do. I was making the point, that the American people seem to think wars are neat little packages that can be completed overnight. Wars are nasty and take time to sort out. Mistakes will be made and have to be overcome to win.
Top

146 formercorpsman  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:10:09am

re: #111 AirForceWife

I am in medicine, albeit I am only in the orthopaedic realm.

I do believe these medicines are way over prescribed, and would think hard about the decision.

I don't like the slippery slope it leads to, relating to the ADA, as someone else state, labeling, etc.

Just think hard about about is my only suggestion.

147 abu_garcia  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:13:30am

Saying we have to kill the jihadis is no big revelation.

The problem is doing away with the culture (and population) that produces them. THAT is the big deal.

We are no where near the point of being willing to do that. Believing we are going to weed out the jihadis while leaving the ME intact is like believing in the tooth fairy.

The only alternative I see to an all-out war is developing an energy source so we can quarantine the bastards and let their countries devolve into the hell-holes they were before we developed "their" oil.

148 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:13:30am

re: #142 Inquisitive

Not sure about now, but at one time Ritalin was a disqualifier for military service.
Top

149 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:13:41am

#122 1SG(ret) 12/28/07 10:50:32 am reply quote report 0


And what would mobilizing for total war look like. It really seems to me most americans are not perpared for what that would mean or look like. 100 hour wars and all air wars seem to be the limit of their support. Total war requires boots on the graound and time, neither of witch seems to be supported by the popuation or governing bodies.
Top

The answer to this question depends on what the goal is. If the goal is to build up a nation after it's leadership has been defeated in order to open up markets, then lots of boots on the ground are necessary. Even if that is the goal, it might not be possible to build up a democratic, free market economy no matter how many boots are on the ground because the indigenous people there simply are not capable of it or resist it.

If the goal is to punish the leadership of a country until it meets our demands, then those expensive bombers and fighter jets will suffice. It's our fairly modern mentality that says we must rebuild those we've defeated that requires all those boots on the ground and when that is the case, we will have many people that don't believe the cause is worth all the blood being spilled.

150 Merovign  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:14:47am

re: #111 AirForceWifeThe work he turns in is A and B work but he then doesn't finish some of his assignments because he gets distracted.

A lot of people will tell you ADD isn't real, for whatever reason. It's real, though it isn't a single problem, isn't solved by chucking drugs at people willy-nilly, and is probably the most over- and mis-diagnosed condition there is. A majority of boys are just excitable, active and easily distracted - that isn't a disorder, that's normal. Developing discipline is a real PITA, but there you go.

There isn't a simple answer. If it is a disorder, it may be inherent, or a food intolerance, allergy, or any number of things. People who have actual/real ADHD have brain chemistry problems that may be temporarily "fixed" because stimulants like ritalin (an amphetamine) have the opposite effect on their brains than on "normal" people. Unfortunately, brain-chemistry is ever-changing and most diagnosed kids don't have the disorder - they either get "whacked-out" or develop a tolerance. If they do, sometimes it's ineffective, sometimes it zombies them out.

There's no magic toy that reads brain chemistry and "fixes" it, even if we knew what normal really was.

No simple advice, and I've never had really good outcomes from going to doctors anyway. A TON of people have undiagnosed food intolerances, so it might be a good place to start, though not an easy place. I wish you luck!

151 ContraJihadi  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:15:36am

re: #30 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Rome did it to the peoples they conquered...they killed off the resistance and then brought civilization and Roman law to the lands they conquered.

We have to take the same course with the Jihadis. Kill them off and then bring civilization to who's left...if there are any.

They are merciless and we have to be even more merciless.

I agree, but there are the questions that Mr. McCarthy raised: do the American people (the effective majority of voters) have the will, does the government have the resources. Come Jan., 2009, unless there should be a Giuliani or perhaps a McCain in the White House and at least 40 Republicans (better, 50 or more) in the Senate, I would bet that the answers will be 'no.'

152 abu_garcia  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:17:22am

re: #111 AirForceWife

Recent research has shown that many (most?) kids with attention problems are just late in developing the parts of the brain for self control. Given time they develop normally.

The big deal is avoiding the development of self-defeating habits. The Army (Navy, Air Force) might be a really good idea. College can come later.

153 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:20:31am

re: #145 1SG(ret)

(-:
I got out in '66, before things got really bad.
You gave me an excuse to RANT (-: for which I'm (-: GRATEFUL.
(-:

154 Live4Truth  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:20:48am
McCarthy: If You Want Democracy, Kill the Jihadists First

Lots of interesting insights in there, especially the one about how democracy is not the ultimate road to peace, when the majority of the people doing the voting have fouled-up, violent ideas on their minds.

155 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:21:25am

#146 formercorpsman 12/28/07 11:10:09 am reply quote report 0
r

e: #111 AirForceWife

I am in medicine, albeit I am only in the orthopaedic realm.

I do believe these medicines are way over prescribed, and would think hard about the decision.

I don't like the slippery slope it leads to, relating to the ADA, as someone else state, labeling, etc.

Just think hard about about is my only suggestion.

Thanks for your input and thanks to the others on here that have responded. That is pretty much where I am. Trying to find out more and talk to others that have had to make the decision. I keep hoping and praying that he just outgrows it and that behavior modification alone works. I knew a lot of boys growing up that people called "hyperactive" and the ones I kept in contact with turned out just fine so I am very cautious about the whole thing. It does seem that the net gets cast too widely and at the same time, there are legitimate cases.

156 Merovign  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:22:00am

WRT the topic,

1) Musharraf is stuck. We've already hurt our relationship with him by pushing Bhutto and criticizing him publicly, and now HE has to try to clean up the mess. He's going to have a hard time trusting us because of that and because we're facing a general election soon and, well, let's just say that these past few decades not all of our allies have fared very well.

2) Pakistan has nukes. This cannot be overstated.

3) A lot of the details people talk about here, the Islamist population, the Al Qaeda infiltration, the Saudi madrassas, and so forth, is all true, and none of them are easy to solve.

4) If we don't support Musharraf, he's going to be driven out and replaced by fanatics.

5) If we support him "too much," for example moving troops in to back him up, he will be seen as a US puppet and the fanatics we think are bad now will actually go completely berserk, the kind of berserk you only see with Saudi and Iranian backing.

6) #5 doesn't mean we can't use troops to help rid Musharraf of Taliban and Al Qaeda internal enemies - though that's messy and we're unlikely to be invited at this point.

7) I shudder to think what the result will be if AQ catches Musharraf off guard.

157 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:23:10am

re: #153 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Hooah! We all need that sometimes.
Top

158 Salem  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:25:22am

re: #144 itellu3times

re: #141 Salem

Admittedly, the article hardly puts a bridge between the problem and the solution. But no single opinion piece will do that for a problem of this scale.

Yeah. His targets are those who think it can be done totally nonviolently.

My problem is that in making an argument against them, he still buys into something like the "law-enforcement" view, which is equally faulty.

Sure, but the notion of attacking an "idea" is a non-starter. An idea can't bleed, can't fear, can't cry out in pain, and no one knows for sure when it has died. And if an idea can be spoken or written down or communicated in any way, it's already done an end-run around your Elmer Fudd hunter of ideas. That's always been my thought: there's no point in hating the concept. The concept is there. It can't be unborn by simply arguing against it. The problem is the people running out in front of the idea like a rabid tide of unreasoning zombies. At some point you either get them, or they get you. You can't get the cross-hairs on the idea, only the people running in front of it.

That said, once the wholesale carnage begins, the lines that used to be so clear can seldom be retrieved. The most awful thing about the jihadis, is they win either way.

159 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:25:32am

#150 Merovign 12/28/07 11:14:47 am reply quote report 0


A lot of people will tell you ADD isn't real, for whatever reason. It's real, though it isn't a single problem, isn't solved by chucking drugs at people willy-nilly, and is probably the most over- and mis-diagnosed condition there is. A majority of boys are just excitable, active and easily distracted - that isn't a disorder, that's normal. Developing discipline is a real PITA, but there you go.

That's pretty much what my thinking has always been on the subject too. That's why I just keep punishing him when he gets bad grades and rewarding him when he gets good grades. I am second guessing myself at this point though.

160 Eowyn2  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:27:44am

re: #16 hermit

sorry if someone already posted this - ah, the future of ROP tolerance...
God Vs. Allah Issue Threatens Catholic Newspaper in Muslim Country


God wins.

161 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:29:50am

#152 abu_garcia 12/28/07 11:17:22 am reply quote report 0
r

e: #111 AirForceWife

Recent research has shown that many (most?) kids with attention problems are just late in developing the parts of the brain for self control. Given time they develop normally.

You have no idea how comforting it is to read this. I've heard this as a theory but did not realize that there is research to back it up. Thanks so much!

162 debutaunt  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:35:03am

re: #56 Ringo the Gringo

re: #3 EtNorskTroll


...but I'm beginning to think that Jihadi's aren't humans.

They are human...just like the Nazis were human, and so many others before them who have committed great evil in this world are very much human.

Charles Manson was one misunderstood human.

Animals are not capable of evil, only humans are.

Charles Manson was one misunderstood human.

163 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:37:09am

re: #159 AirForceWife

Everything you described about your son fits me when I was a boy. Baseball was my love and passion. My dad used this to help channel my energy until I was able to develop self control. Maybe he just needs something he loves to help him focus. Drugs should be the last resort. Military was my saving grace as an adult.
Top

164 Inquisitive  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:38:14am

re: #111 AirForceWife
Thsi is a very hard decision to make and I know due to having to make it.
Yes I choose to have my son put on it in 1st grade but I have never regretted doing it. He is very smart but was falling way behind in school. He was put on it the second nine weeks of the school year. At the end of the school year the teacher told me she was so surprised. She had thought it would take him at least a year to catch up with the other students and thought he was one that was going to have to be held back but by the end of the year she said he had not only caught up with the class but had passed others. We have tried other meds as they have came out on the market but always return back to the Ritalin due to his grades falling and him not being able to concentrate, focus or sit still in class. It is not only hard for him but he would also disrupt the class and bother other students. By taking this med he has not had to be put in any special ed classes and for many years been on the honor roll. But the most important thing do not go by just one opinion---we had testing done by doctors, teachers, and counselors. He has not been LABELED! ! He is taking a med. to help him the same as he would if he had some other medical condition. I don't want my child to be just someone setting there all day playing games either---that is why we picked Ritalin he takes it when he needs it for school but then does not have it in his system in the eve or on weekends. The others they have out stay in there system for 12 hrs. Do the research yourself---the Internet is great---that is where I
keep up on it. Sorry everyone I have probably went on too long but I know how things can be---these children have to get an education---behave in class and I did not want by son to be placed in special ed or be labeled a trouble maker and problem child when there was a med that could help him---There is other LABELS that can be placed on your child that is just as worse as being said they have ADHD. I will end with THAT.

165 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:40:03am

re: #163 1SG(ret)

A big "ME TOO" to your last sentence.

166 debutaunt  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:41:56am

re: #76 Iron Fist

Islam is at war with us whether we wish it or not. Sooner or later we are going to have to face that fact.

GWB finds that fact impossible to process.

167 Inquisitive  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:43:45am

re: #148 1SG(ret)
Sure hope not! Will have to check on this.

168 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:44:13am

#163 1SG(ret) 12/28/07 11:37:09 am reply quote report 0

re: #159 AirForceWife

Everything you described about your son fits me when I was a boy. Baseball was my love and passion. My dad used this to help channel my energy until I was able to develop self control. Maybe he just needs something he loves to help him focus. Drugs should be the last resort. Military was my saving grace as an adult.
Top

Football and Basketball are what he loves, especially Football. So when he started getting a bunch of missing assignments, I told him he would be out of Football if he kept doing this. I resorted to this because grounding him was not working. I also help him as needed with homework and make sure he finishes all of his homework but it's his classwork he gets into trouble over because he can't stop talking according to his teachers. One even told me he is a "motormouth". He ended up having to quit the Football season over this which devastated him and his grades improved marginally. Except for Science...always gets A's and B's in that and does fairly well in math too. Just sucks at English and every other subject. For a kid that talks non-stop, one would think he'd be better at writing but I don't think he could write a coherent paragraph on his own to save his life. The ideas are there, but putting them down he has trouble with.

169 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:52:19am

re: #168 AirForceWife

I understand what you are going through. Have you tried a journal. This helped my oldest son when he was having writing problems. It helped him slow down his thought process so he could put them on paper. Kind of took the pressure off also, because it was for him, not someone else to read.
Top

170 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:52:25am

#164 Inquisitive 12/28/07 11:38:14 am reply quote report

That is some really good information and thanks so much for taking the time. It is very good to hear about children that have been helped liked this and that it was not detrimental to them in any other way. If things do not improve, I may have to try it because it really is getting to that point now. If he doesn't pass the next two terms of English, they will hold him back regardless of how well he is doing in math and Science. They have to pass English and Math to go on. Math is not a problem.

It's amazing to me to have two boys with the same set of parents and have my one son (16 months older) always get straight A's and the other one struggle so much in some subjects and have the teachers tell me what a disruption he is to their class. My daughter does fine too. It's just the middle one. It seems to always be the middle kid...LOL. I was a middle kid on my Dad's side and I sure was no picnic to raise either.

171 abu_garcia  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:54:51am

re: #161 AirForceWife

One other thing. I have been diagnosed with Adult Attention Deficit. I'm not hyper active, I just don't focus too well. I manage OK to make a pretty good living. I am pretty well known in my area and to my clients for my wide-ranging knowledge - there are benefits to not being too focused. A lot of life is finding your niche.

From my experience I would say that Ritalin and Adderol are drugs to stay away from if you can at all avoid it. There are people who seem to truly benefit from them, but I am certainly not one of them and I don't think it should be given willy-nilly.

172 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:55:27am

#169 1SG(ret) 12/28/07 11:52:19 am reply quote report 0

re: #168 AirForceWife

I understand what you are going through. Have you tried a journal. This helped my oldest son when he was having writing problems. It helped him slow down his thought process so he could put them on paper. Kind of took the pressure off also, because it was for him, not someone else to read.
Top

He reads to me every day and then has to write down a summary. I also ask him detailed questions about what he has read. His comprehension is excellent. His ability to write it all down is his problem. He forgets how to spell words that I know he once knew how to spell, makes huge grammatical errors, and sentence structure errors. He is improving though, I know that much.

173 debutaunt  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:56:04am

re: #129 Opinionated

I saw clips of Benazir Bhutto on TV yesterday where she explained that she would be safe because true Muslims know that it is forbidden to attack women.

Where was she the last half century?

It was even just her Western education, her being Western is outlook, that caused even her to ignore the truth of Jihadist Islam even as she should have known better. We, like her, ignore the truth at our peril.

I wonder if AHA ever found any "true muslims" on her journey.

174 mungagungadin  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:56:23am

This is why democracies are inherently dangerous and evil: democracy itself is nothing more than organized MOB RULE. The contrary option is always good: Republic, which is constitution and rights-based. Only a republic was ever worth installing, and this is the reason the Iraq "democracy" experiment never worked... no one was ever willing to present a non-sharia (or in other words, a rights-based) constitutional republic.

Of course the other reason the iraq govt' was doomed to failure was that our side was insisting on nationalizing the oil proceeds- for all of Iraq's benefit, while those who had previously benefitted- the owners of oil land, wanted to resist it. It was rather hypocritical of us, as we have never forced our own Oil Men to "give" for our nation.

175 1SG(ret)  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:58:59am

re: #172 AirForceWife

Sure sounds like you are doing the best you can for him. He is lucky, too many parents just medicate them so they don't have to deal with these issues. I commend you!
Top

176 lostlakehiker  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:59:00am

There are many people in Pakistan who supported Bhutto. Those huge crowds she drew were real. The riots now are a spontaneous response to her killing. There are also a considerable number of supporters of Musharraf. No one man can rule a nation.

If the UBL supporters are determined to rule nevertheless, they'll have to be discouraged or killed. But not by us. By the Pakistanis from the groups mentioned in the first paragraph.

Pakistan is simply too big for us to occupy and rule in the teeth of a determined insurgency. There are too many people we'd have to kill. We'd choke on the blood.

Let them sort it out. If push comes to shove, we might be able to arrange something to defuse their nuclear arsenal. But fixing their politics from the outside, by force, is impossible.

All this presumes that Pakistan has not launched her nukes at us or at anybody. If that awful day ever came, all restraints would go by the by.

177 Grandma  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:01:56pm

Decades ago, when I attended grade school during the “duck and cover” years, most Americans had compassion for the ordinary folks in the Soviet Union because we understood that they were the victims of the Marxist Communist/Socialist power mongers. Today, however, I have little compassion for those whose lovely culture, religion, and tribalism in “Islamic Republics” causes them to contribute heavily to their own (and the rest of the world’s) misfortune. I believe that the ordinary folks in these Islamic Republics, and there are plenty of them, really want Sharia Law to be totally practiced, and they place revenge, misplaced “honor”, war-mongering, drug-dealing, and patriarchal power above everything benign.

We, as Americans, have been educated to believe that all cultures and ways of life are legitimate. Well, some of them are just plain wrong. Islam is malignant. Tribal culture is also malignant. And I, like Andrew McCarthy, am willing to pass judgement. Because I can. And as much as I don’t like to see “innocents” suffer, I’m also willing to view their bad behavior as malignant, rather than “innocent”, because they themselves keep promoting it.

I would like nothing more than to see, before I die, the total demise of Islam, Mohammed, Allah, and everything that it represents. If that means that Islamic ideology has to be eliminated, so be it. You’ll notice that I don’t say that I want specific individuals to be dead...just Allah and Mohammed. And ol’ Mo is already taking a dirt nap.

Just my $.02 on this rainy SC afternoon, and have a nice day.

178 Inquisitive  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:19:50pm

re: #170 AirForceWife
I was also the middle child and gave my parents a lot of trouble(LOL)
I hope I didn't ramble on to long on the other post but wanted to give your other points of view. Their is a lot of pro's and con's on this issue. I have heard it all so that is why I said do the research and don't go by just one opinion . Most of the children will out grow it, but others just need a little help through it. I don't know how it is at your child's school but here they go so fast that if the child does not catch on they are just left behind and if the child has a attention problem it makes it even worse. Then when they can't set still and are bothering the other children and disrupting class it gets even worse for them. I also did the discipline and he was involved in sports(baseball and soccer)---but as a child with true ADHD he had to take his meds to be able to play because he couldn't focus or pay attention out on the field. We even tried without but he would even ask to take them, because he would do so bad and be wondering around and the kids would make fun of him and ask the coaches not to put him in. So for my son it has been a blessing and even to this day when he is really wound up his friends will kid him and ask him if he needs to take his meds.
Yes I am a advocate for those who truly need it and Yes I do believe that it has been used alot when it was not really needed.

179 SpiritOf1683  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:36:09pm

re: #61 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

re: #59 pat


re: #50 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

re: #43 ROPMA

We need to find someone like this to take care of the jihaddies

Or perhaps someone like this:
[Link: www.mimenta.com...]

Or, someone who did.
[Link: faculty-staff.ou.edu...]

Ahhh dear Alexander...another brilliant man.


But Alexander the Great conquered Afghanistan over 23 centuries ago - some 900 years before Islam appeared on the scene. But back to the present day. Everybody knows that Pakistan is governed by a Westernised elite spread thinly like a tablecloth over an active volcano. And we certainly know all about the seething uneducated masses who represent that volcano. That country is about to blow and the coming weeks and months will be a very testing period. And we are only too aware of what will happen if Pakistan's nuclear arsenal falls into the wrong hands. Islamists welcome death, hence it is no deterrent to them. They could vapourise New York without fearing the response (even in that scenario there would be some bleeding hearts liberals around accusing us of picking on 'vulnerable brown people' if we dared retaliate), because 'martyrdom' and 72 virgins is what they've been addled into wishing for by hate-filled clerics.

180 Mardukhai  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:40:57pm

Look, I agree that the only thing to do with Jihadis is precisely what they want to do with us.

But there are millions, tens of millions of Pakistanis who agree with me. I meet them all the time.

My former doctor, a religious Pakistani woman, would swear like a sailor when describing them. (Her view of Islam didn't preclude full physical exams of male patients by the way.)

The problem is that she doesn't really know how far they have penetrated her mosque.

As for the scores of millions of Bhutto supporters now rioting all over Sind and Punjab, they are not likely to be very impressed with Islamists. They'll be radicalized, and guys in turbans are unlikely to be safe around them.

181 jimsaco  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:42:00pm

re: #176 lostlakehiker

Exactly. Our policy options to affect, directly, what happens in Pakistan are limited.

I think Islam is incompatible with modern society too, but what are we supposed to do? Bomb every madrassa? Invade and occupy (with what army)? How many countries?

This problem is only going to get worse.

182 johnnygriswold  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:44:12pm

It's all a lot of hot air. Not a damn thing is going to be done about Islam until a nuke goes off in America or in a western country. Sad to say, but I think it's true. We're fooling ourselves into believing that there are moderate muslims ... or that democracy will change things. Give them democracy and they vote in the jihadists. It's a no-win situation until we are forced to do something drastic.

183 beachkatie  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:51:02pm

re: #156 Merovign
I absolutely agree with your synopsis.

184 grandma  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:54:15pm

#111, AirforceWife,

My son, who is now 40 years old, was as typical as any boy. He was a royal pain. He was the firstborn of four, the only boy, and his father died when he was seven. It was rough on me raising him with little or no experience or help. Back then, nobody was prescribing drugs to “control” his bad behavior. He just had me, who was unwilling to tolerate the unacceptable nonsense. Today, this “kid” is the Global Director of Operations Planning for a major domestic company. Go figure. He’d even tell you today that he probably had “ADHD” or some other alphabet soup malady as a kid.

My 30+-year career was spent with some of the world’s major pharmaceutical companies. If I learned nothing else from that, I did learn their agenda for “fixing” everything is with drugs. It was good business. Today, I have the care of a 92-year-old father on my plate, suffering from moderate to severe dementia. Again, here come the drugs. After several episodes of his bad behavior in his nursing home, his physician tried out some of the common ones: Risperdol, Mirapex, Requip and Haldol, and then I nixed all that. The side effects caused so many other problems that the benefit wasn’t worth the cure. Now they’re looking at Aricept and Namenda for him. As if there’s a cure for Alzheimer’s. No way, just so someone else can have an “easy day”.

So, hang in there. The clock and calendar, and really good insight and parenting will overcome. It doesn’t mean it will be easy on either of you, but in my experience, a good relationship with your child is worth more than anything. You’ll both grow; he’ll grow out of it, and you’ll grow, too.

185 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:55:08pm
186 BillLangston  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 1:01:13pm

re: #58 McNug

re: #43 ROPMA

We need to find someone like this to take care of the jihaddies

All of this generation's George Pattons got put on Ritalin when they were kids and subsequently became Humanities Majors instead of joining the army.

Oh man, I was wracking my brain trying to think of something clever to say and you up and blow me out of the water with this! Thank you sir (or ms., whatever the case may be)

SF
Bill

187 jimsaco  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 1:08:59pm

re: #185 buzzsawmonkey

You're right -- that is what would need to be done.

I doubt that the national will exists to permit that. Can you imagine CinC Edwards, Obama or Clinton doing that? We were able to do such things in WW2 when there was media censorship, 90+% national support, and no Internet or 24 hour news.

And what happens if we get a "package" with no return address?

188 nyc redneck  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 1:41:55pm

re: #177 Grandma

i really enjoyed reading your post. thank you for your insight.

189 theheat  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 2:16:10pm
Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence. If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they’ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto.

This is the primary reason the WoT is a joke. At no point have we committed to actually killing them off. We kill them in small skirmishes, but there's millions more where they come from. And it would have to be a Dresden II, and that simply isn't going to happen. You can't go in and start leveling entire cities without provocation. (Look at the dead dusty babies photo outrage from last year, and imagine a backlash a a hundred thousand-fold worse.)

Given we aren't committed to killing the enemy, and the host countries are even less committed to killing them, that leaves a thriving community of anti-West jihadists that, as a side benefit, can now vote, many of which live in countries that have us by the short and curlies because they control oil.

It's funny, really; everyone wants to see terrorists killed, but nobody is willing to do the killing. Worse, the left and the media work constantly to humanize them.

190 Lion of the Red Mountain  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 2:22:19pm

After reading Andrew McCarthy's article I really have to wonder just what America has gained by supporting Pakistan? We should probably throw in with India - besides all our IT support is there anyway and they hate the Islamicists! Let's go the extra mile and use them to control Pakistan.

191 MrTunes  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 2:58:39pm

It is uncomfortable to confront some of the points he makes - but he right.

It is really a restatement of the "we went into Iraq with too few boots on the ground" argument - we need to get tougher, not weaker.

192 apachegunner  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:00:36pm

re: #111 AirForceWifeMy wife and I are raising our grandson who "appears " to have ADD. He is not hyperactive, but often scattered and illogical in his thinking and has so many of the same difficulties as your son. We've tried it all and he is now using a Daytrana patch during school days. Each summer he goes off his meds and starts the school year without them. He is now 15. Unfortunately, within a few weeks he is getting D's and F's. Not because he is stupid, but due to unfinished classroom assignments, lost homework, incomplete notetaking, etc. Once back on his meds, he's back getting A's and B's and a C here and there. There is a great magazine out there called ADDITUDE which has been a wonderful help to us. It is monthly and deals with pros and cons and all the various aspects and opinions of experts and parents. It is the kind of resource that puzzled and conflicted parents really can benefit from. Check it out. Good luck to you and to your son.

193 Merovign  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:07:20pm

re: #172 AirForceWifeHis ability to write it all down is his problem. He forgets how to spell words that I know he once knew how to spell, makes huge grammatical errors, and sentence structure errors. He is improving though, I know that much.

It sure does sound like ADD, or something like it. There are some good internet forums, good books, etc., out there about dealing with it without drugging yourself into a stupor.

Unfortunately, you have to be really careful because there are so many "fanatics" out there on health issues, who think their favorite answer is the answer to everything - wonder foods, Est-like training, any given drug, waterboarding, whatever.

Real life is complicated, and you're going to have to experiment. Don't gloss over what I said earlier about food - our ancestors never ate the variety of food we eat today, and a lot of minor food intolerances can cause enough brain chemistry changes to make it hard to learn or behave properly. I had a major food intolerance (Celiac disease) that went undiagnosed for 35 years because the dozens of doctors I went to never tested for it.

Unfortunately, you're in a hard place, and again I wish you the best of luck in finding the answer.

194 Merovign  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:17:50pm

re: #183 beachkatie

re: #156 Merovign
I absolutely agree with your synopsis.

Gee, I wish I heard that more often. :) Thanks.

195 Seraphym  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:21:44pm

re: #121 Jack Reacher

Over 400 F15s--many built in the 70s and early 80s--are indefinitely grounded for structural faults. Their vastly superior replacement, the F22 Raptor, has only recently entered service, and the Pentagon and Congress seem to have agreed that 180 is a sufficient production run...

Well, when you consider what the F-22 is capable of, 180 to 200 really might be all we'd need, when combined with modern US SAMs and tracking abilities of ships and AWACS. I used to work for Lockheed Martin, and I know a guy at my current company who was a Systems Integration engineer in Marietta, GA, where they're built. We've talked on this topic a few times.

That aircraft brings a completely unfair fight to the skies. For the F-22 pilots to even get a moderate workout in Red Flag exercises, they go up 5-to-1 against with F-15s & F-16s, and still win every time. Often, the F-15s and F-16s are also being flown by F-22-qualified pilots... and despite having 5 or 6 times the numbers, they still lose. Most of the "OpFor" pilots never even see the F-22 before the computers register a "kill."

Even so, I'd love to see us build 500 of the things. Air dominance and precision strikes sometimes just require numbers to maintain in a full-out conflict. But then again, precision strike in an air-dominated area is why we also have the F-35 (JSF).

196 Ledger1  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:57:43pm

If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they’ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto. –Andrew McCarthy

I agree.

Sympathizing with them, negotiating with them, or looking “root causes” of murderous aggression simply does not work.

Jihadists are equivalent to cancer. The only cure is to remove them from the political body. Cut them out, irradiate them, or chemo them to death. Just remove them.

197 realwest  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:39:36pm

test

198 Joan  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:07:42pm

[Link: www.defenddemocracy.org...]

This organization is doing what has to be done, if we desire to survive as a nation: defeat the venomous domestic fifth column's propaganda onslaught against our national interests. Check the link.

If there is a vote on Fallaci award, maybe we can write-in FDD as a vital riposte to the liars and dupes that have strangled our national solidarity. At any rate, I feel more hopeful that we can actually drown out the voice of Minitru with the truth.

199 Uncle Joe  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:55:21pm

re: #10 alegrias

du-u-ude...excellent article...thanks for the link.

200 itellu3times  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 6:08:48pm

re: #168 AirForceWife

...Just sucks at English and every other subject. For a kid that talks non-stop, one would think he'd be better at writing but I don't think he could write a coherent paragraph on his own to save his life. The ideas are there, but putting them down he has trouble with.

I've seen this in adults, had a secretary once who spoke in perfectly grammatical sentences, long complex sentences, but couldn't write even a short sentence, much less a paragraph, without it coming out gibberish. It's probably a flavor of dyslexia.

My cousin's kid had a ton of trouble in school with dyslexia (and ten other bogus diagnosis, by the way, which have slowly been dropped over the past ten years). With a lot of special ed, and just maybe growing out of it, being a slow maturer mentally, she's doing fine now. So, do seek out the best current educational methods, and see if he doesn't just pop out of it in a year or two - better doing both together.

Then again, I've seen the opposite, friend of mine in high school was great in English, but when he went to college, he practically forgot how to make change, because (I think) he decided math skills were uncool. He eventually got back to at least normal math skills. FWIW.

201 itellu3times  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 6:12:28pm

re: #195 Seraphym
Thanks for a great post.

Also have UCAVs coming soon to a sky near you, and all kinds of stand-off munitions to use against ground targets.

I don't really know the current state of our anti-anti-aircraft capabilities, that's where you could have attrition against a small fleet of F-22s. Then there's that recent Israeli raid against Syria, but I don't want to base a whole lot of confidence on just that one raid - as great as it was!

202 itellu3times  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 6:12:44pm

Dang these dead threads anyway.

203 itellu3times  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 6:16:56pm

re: #158 Salem
1. "There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come".

2. There is such a thing as converting your enemies, but it sure helps to tell them what they are being converted *to*!

3. If you can't even name your enemy, you have lost.

... well, unless you wipe him out to the last man, I suppose.

204 Tigger2005  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 6:29:23pm

re: #135 AirForceWife

#88 Tigger2005 12/28/07 10:18:44 am reply quote report 0


Japan is fascinating to me ... it went from medieval to "modern" and became a global power in the space of a couple of decades. I wonder how many Japanese officers and soldiers in WWII were the sons and grandsons of men who had worn topknots and carried swords.

The difference though, between both the Japanese and Germans (during the war) and the Islamists, is that while they were just as brutal, the similarities stop there. Both the Japanese and German people were a resourceful and industrious people. Separate from their brutality, they were not self-destructive, third world people. That is a big part of why their countries could be rebuilt after WWll. If Japan had won the war, they would not have became self-destructive, third world people.

Yeah, you HAD to be an advanced society at that time to wage war on that scale. You also had to be a stable, advanced, non-self-destructive society to build an atomic weapon. This is the sole reason we've managed to avoid nuclear war, IMO, because the weapons were in the hands of societies that were mature enough and survival-oriented enough not to use them. Soon that will no longer be the case.

205 Uncle Joe  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 6:37:43pm

re: #28 Cognito

re: #20 MJ


Pakistan in Peril: John Bolton on Bhutto's death
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Whoa. Bolton says some things there that I think might fly in the face of some of the comments I've seen here:

BOLTON: Well, I think this ought to tell us not to try to micro-manage what goes on in a country like this. What we've got now is a prescription for chaos. That country is on the verge. We'll have to see what happens in the cities tomorrow, whether riots break out. This is exactly what the Islamic fundamentalists wanted, because now Musharraf himself has come under even greater criticism. The country is extremely unstable and control of those nuclear weapons is now up for grabs.

Wow.

But Prez Bush sez Jesus wants democracy ever'place!

I voted for Bush. I'd vote for him again if the other choice was Kerry. Having said that, Bush is a supernova of fucktarded stupidity and incompetence who has greatly damaged the US and US interests. Condi Rice too, for that matter.

Pakistan is merely the latest example. Bush grovels before Mexico while we undergo the greatest unregulated invasion of our nation in history via illegal immigration. He licks Putin's boots like a beaten dog. When Iran's thriftstore-attired fascist dictator wanders New York at will, Bush says, "mmbuh, I guess it's alright with me." The man lacks even the most basic capacity for leadership.

I look forward to voting for the Republican presidential candidate whoever that turns out to be, but the end of this stumblebum, rich-boy, nitwit presidency can't come soon enough for me.

206 Maine's Michael  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 6:49:45pm

MJ,

I was very, very impressed that Bolton had the balls to speak the truth yesterday on FOx Hannity and Colmes. I remarked upon it at another thread yesterday. He certainly ripped this admin a well deserved new one.

re: #205 Uncle Joe

I look forward to voting for the Republican presidential candidate whoever that turns out to be, but the end of this stumblebum, rich-boy, nitwit presidency can't come soon enough for me.

I share your pain.

207 huckfunn  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 7:08:57pm

re: #9 Desert Dog

Kill them all and let God sort them out? I do not think a rabid jihadi is a human being in the same sense we are. Their is no conscience to appeal to. We are sub-human scum that either has to convert, submit or die. How do you deal with that mind set? Kill them before they kill you.

Here is the jihaddi theme song

208 Bill K.  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 8:02:50pm

The United States has tolerated the presence of al Qaeda in Pakistan for years and the presence of Islamic and Mideast terror regimes for decades. The death of Bhutto should not have been that surprising.

We should be ending terror regimes right and left starting with Iran and working down through Saudi Arabia. By the time we get to Syria and Pakistan they will know exactly what is we require of them and will be only too happy to comply.

Relying on such imperfect proxies as Benazir Bhutto to defeat al Qaeda is as McCarthy implies: a fool's mission. It is not necessary, possible or even desirable to bring "democracy" to such backward regions. They have no real concept of political freedom and will abuse the vote to elect tyrants who are not only a danger to themselves but also to us.

We must end the Islamic danger ourselves. Once that is done a properly vetted and tightly controlled Bhutto might be allowed to take control.

209 AirForceWife  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 8:15:36pm

To all of you who have given me such good information...thanks so much! I couldn't get back here until just now but have read all of the responses and it is all good advice. LGF is the best thing on the internet!

210 moradali  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 8:25:33pm

Islamic Democracy:

Believer gets 1 vote
AK-47 Believer gets 10 votes
RPG Believer gets 100 votes
IED Believer gets 1,000 votes
Vest suicider Believer gets 5,000 votes
Truck Bomber Believer gets 10,000 votes

and this is Islamic Democracy.

F*** Prophet Mohammad the pedophile assassin and his post-colonial left supporters.

211 traumakitty  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 8:51:34pm
#209 Air Force Wife


Late to the thread but FWIW, my husband and I were repeatedly urged to test our 2 sons, as was my sister with hers. All three boys are very smart. We all resisted the "suggestions" for drug therapy starting when the boys were as young as 2nd and 3rd grade. They are all teenagers, the oldest is 17. My husband and I ended up homeschooling, mainly becaus my husband was sent to work in places where decent schools didn't exsist. My sister ended up putting hers in a small private school. N ot sure if that helps much, but I personally have really enjoyed the years with our sons. We're at 7+ homeschooling years now.

212 EtNorskTroll  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:13:36pm

re: #205 Uncle Joe

re: #28 Cognito

re: #20 MJ


Pakistan in Peril: John Bolton on Bhutto's death
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]


Whoa. Bolton says some things there that I think might fly in the face of some of the comments I've seen here:


BOLTON: Well, I think this ought to tell us not to try to micro-manage what goes on in a country like this. What we've got now is a prescription for chaos. That country is on the verge. We'll have to see what happens in the cities tomorrow, whether riots break out. This is exactly what the Islamic fundamentalists wanted, because now Musharraf himself has come under even greater criticism. The country is extremely unstable and control of those nuclear weapons is now up for grabs.


Wow.

But Prez Bush sez Jesus wants democracy ever'place!

I voted for Bush. I'd vote for him again if the other choice was Kerry. Having said that, Bush is a supernova of fucktarded stupidity and incompetence who has greatly damaged the US and US interests. Condi Rice too, for that matter.

Pakistan is merely the latest example. Bush grovels before Mexico while we undergo the greatest unregulated invasion of our nation in history via illegal immigration. He licks Putin's boots like a beaten dog. When Iran's thriftstore-attired fascist dictator wanders New York at will, Bush says, "mmbuh, I guess it's alright with me." The man lacks even the most basic capacity for leadership.

I look forward to voting for the Republican presidential candidate whoever that turns out to be, but the end of this stumblebum, rich-boy, nitwit presidency can't come soon enough for me.

I don't approve of your cursing, but your sentiments are right on the money.

$$$

~Norsk Troll

213 Orde  Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:16:41pm

re: #118 Maine's Michael

re: #111 AirForceWife

Don't do it.

Recent research indicates that essentially all of these kids diagnosed with ADD turn out NORMAL as young adults.

Don't let him get labelled, either.

Agree, don't do it. My opinion comes from teaching juvenile delinquents in a variety of settings. I strongly advocated taking my students off drugs, including ritalin. They subsequently excelled both academically and behaviorally, in my class anyway (as opposed to in other classrooms, where there were fights, runaways, etc). Not only could they focus, but they typically petitioned for extra classes as well as homework (Algebra, Geometry).

214 guftafs  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 2:05:23am

The Pakistanis, Iraqis, Iranians, etc. don't need democracy. They need freedom protected by law, something they won't get with democracy as it stands now. The Weimar Germans were the same. They tried freedom, didn't like it and democratically put in its place un-freedom.

215 theblakester  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 3:12:07am

As much as I despise Fascism, I find this Jihad cult to be far worse! If they ever get 51% of any democratic vote, you fill in the plank! They would never leave power and only assassinate the closest moderate opponent!Can't wait to see any Hamas opponent in their next election!

216 docremulac  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 5:07:46am

Democracy is still the only path. What better way for a people to learn their lesson than to put an Osama Ben Ladin in power and suffer the consequences? I agree that if there is a candidate for a people too savage and stupid to rule themselves it would certainly be these idiots, but how else are they going to learn?

Let them vote warmongering monsters into power and declare their little wars, kick the crap out of them, repeat till they figure it out. There's one thing to remember here: don't be afraid to fight jihadists. They are the most incompetent and easily beaten fighting force the world has ever seen. Our military would beat any jihadist force even if they were outnumbered ten thousand to one and that's not an exaggeration. They're REALLY stupid, and to treat them like some potent fighting force is bad planning.

Besides, it looks like these middle east dictators cut secret deals with the jihadists to keep in power anyway so non-democracy is no great answer.

217 Texas Joel  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 7:00:57am

What better way for a people to learn their lesson than to put an Osama Ben Ladin in power and suffer the consequences?

I think most people agreed with this until 9/12/01.

The problem with elections by populations of jihadists is that such elections now result in the winners having direct access to fissionables in the form of bombs for Pakistan and in the form of reactor fuel for the Iranians. All opec country 'elections' would return governments with access to vast supplies of currency and little enough interest in bettering their own people. (all governments are stable when the economy is stable and people's relative well being is stagnant, when the economy, and people's expectations change, all governments are unstable)
When 'learning democracies' have the money to hire proxies, the materials for wmd, and no concept of deterrence (ie believe death in battle is a positive result), the rest of the world stands to pay too high of a price for instruction. While they learn the cost of electing jihadists, the jihadists will be using the spectre of Israel and the US and the west to keep the masses frothing for more jihad. I think the 'lessons' will take too long for the west to survive if democracy is unleashed at random on the third world.

As much as military dictatorships are repugnant to the western democracy, it is only religious and military allegiance that provides a systematic alternative to plutocracy and corruption. In the islamic world religion fosters combat instead of peace and meditation. That, somewhat ironically, leaves only the military as a group of people with a motivation 'beyond' theft and beyond 'death in battle' as goals. Thus- President Musharraf.

218 Roger  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 7:08:55am

So who were the good, decent Islamists from whom Mohammad hijacked their peaceful, sweet religion?

219 Sceptic Tank  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 7:17:47am

Without effective leadership and the will to defeat Jihadists all our military might is useless. We become big Israel.

220 141Driver  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 9:00:37am

I don't think it is necessary to de-humanize the jihadists or to make them out to be some sort of boogie men. I simply recognize their intent and capabilities, and have decided the most appropriate course of action is defeat them totally and completely. I doubt our current government has the overall will to do so. That is a mistake.

221 gunjam  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 5:07:22pm

re: #44 ShumBaayaMyLord

re: #121 Jack Reacher

And, given the refusal of the richest, most spendthrift government in American history to grow our military to an appropriate war footing, we may not have the resources to do it.

To paraphrase Homer Simpson, it's painful 'cause it's true. Over 400 F15s--many built in the 70s and early 80s--are indefinitely grounded for structural faults. Their vastly superior replacement, the F22 Raptor, has only recently entered service, and the Pentagon and Congress seem to have agreed that 180 is a sufficient production run. With Russia's bombers once again probing our perimeter defenses, and China furiously expanding and modernizing its military, this is madness.

But at least Medicare now pays for prescriptions.

As the father of a son who has (voluntarily) served in both Iraq and Afghanistan, it does not in the least warm my heart towards President George W. Bush to reflect on how he has: a) put our troops into a LONG war; b) presided over the largest spending growth of the Federal Government in out country's history, and here is the kicker, (c) has not found it worth his time to see to it that military spending was increased to the levels required both to meet the needs of our troops in the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, AND to get ready for the future big bust-up with China that anyone with brains can see we need to start preparing for NOW.

GWB will leave office with a worn-out, under-equipped, under-funded military that has busted its butt for him for the past five years in Southwest Asia. Some legacy! If this had happened under Clinton, conservatives would have been all over him, but the Limbaughs and Hannitys are blind to Bush's egregious misuse and mistreatment of the military. What's worse, rebuilding the military is not even the major theme of any of the Republican candidates for the Presidency. Military power does not just happen: It needs to be deliberately built.

222 gunjam  Sat, Dec 29, 2007 5:24:02pm

re: #5 MJ

re: #15 Angel

re: #60 Opinionated

re: #212 EtNorskTroll

re: #205 Uncle Joe

I voted for Bush. I'd vote for him again if the other choice was Kerry. Having said that, Bush is a supernova of f--ktarded stupidity and incompetence who has greatly damaged the US and US interests. Condi Rice too, for that matter.

Pakistan is merely the latest example. Bush grovels before Mexico while we undergo the greatest unregulated invasion of our nation in history via illegal immigration. He licks Putin's boots like a beaten dog. When Iran's thriftstore-attired fascist dictator wanders New York at will, Bush says, "mmbuh, I guess it's alright with me." The man lacks even the most basic capacity for leadership.

I look forward to voting for the Republican presidential candidate whoever that turns out to be, but the end of this stumblebum, rich-boy, nitwit presidency can't come soon enough for me.



Better watch out: The Skull-and-Bones hit squad might be out to get you!

SecState Rice is woefully underqualified for her job and is causing far more harm than good. A good case can be made that she has Bhutto's blood on her hands -- not due to any malice on her part, but due to her clueless incompetence and incomprehension of what is going on in the world today. She is not able to see the evil in Islamofascism: She advocates funding and weapons for the PLO.

That President Bush permits Rice to stay on seems to suggest that he is as clueless as she is. The two of them make our country a laughingstock -- with plenty of help from a large supporting cast, to include the CIA, the State Department, and the Democratic leadership in Congress (Reid, Pelosi, et al).


This entry has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

log in
Name:
Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? My Account Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► LGF Hits

► Slideshows

► Resources

► Never Forget

► Statistics

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

► News/Opinion

  • Loading...

More Partners

Compare Electricity Prices in your area. Texas Electricity is deregulated; you have the right to choose Texas Electric Rates from among many Texas Electric Companies.

No grumbo - be humbo.

Follow Lizardoid on Twitter

Barnes & Noble Home

 Frank says:

There is no such thing as a dirty word. Nor is there a word so powerful, that it's going to send the listener to a lake of fire upon hearing it.