Not much doubt about this one. The suicide bomber now makes more sense now. He was there to kill the assassin not Bhutto.

Any bets as to how long before the BDS crowd comes up with a conspiracy theory?I'm betting on the 'grassy knoll' myself. *wry bitter grin*

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Not much doubt about this one. The suicide bomber now makes more sense now. He was there to kill the assassin not Bhutto.

Or as a backup. Maybe we'll never know.

Since they were walking close together, coming through the crowd, Occam's Razor says they were in cahoots.

Good catch to find that video!

Why does it matter whether it was the bullet or the bomb? She's been murdered by those who wish Pakistan to be embroiled in turmoil so it can be blamed on Bush. Who might that be?

The question is why would the government risk such a cover story when they are admitting that shots were actually fired? Maybe it has something to do with recovery of the bullet fragments from Bhutto.

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

re: #4 BigPapa

Why does it matter whether it was the bullet or the bomb? She's been murdered by those who wish Pakistan to be embroiled in turmoil so it can be blamed on Bush. Who might that be?

Blamed on BUSH?! Hardly.

Turmoil will lead to an opportunity for the Islamists to take over the country. Bush has little or nothing to do with it. It's an internal-politics power play.

Did anybody notice the # of camera phones so close to Benazir at the time of bomb detonation?

Wonder if the ISI confiscated any of those if they actually survived the blast that is.

We may still see more video on this matter in the future

2 assassins, I doubt the shooter knew the bomber was about to kill him.
ISI

re: #10 NortonPete

2 assassins, I doubt the shooter knew the bomber was about to kill him.
ISI

I disagree.

re: #8 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The 'blamed on Bush' was just a tad wee bit of satire with a smidge of sarcasm sprinkled on top, in ref to the Cwazy Uncle's wecent wevelations.

I'm sure it was a power play by an Islamist to cut off a Western styled political player. Bhutto probably wasn't an angel, but I'd take her over any of the theocrats any day.

re: #12 BigPapa

re: #8 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The 'blamed on Bush' was just a tad wee bit of satire with a smidge of sarcasm sprinkled on top, in ref to the Cwazy Uncle's wecent wevelations.

I'm sure it was a power play by an Islamist to cut off a Western styled political player. Bhutto probably wasn't an angel, but I'd take her over any of the theocrats any day.

The government doesn't gain one way or another by putting out a false story, especially if it's easy to prove wrong.

I'm still not sure that she was shot. I noted that first crack her head did not move at all, second crack she was ducking ... the scarf flying up minus blood spray doesn't tell us the bullet actually hit her. Going to download the vid at liveleak and stop frame it to check this out.

re: #12 BigPapa

Oops! Clicked "Post" by mistake.

I see now about the /sarc.

re: #7 avideditorla.com

I agree, but Pakistan doesn't need it's own 'Twooofers' getting in the way and acting as useful idiots for the jihadists.

re: #3 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Or as a backup. Maybe we'll never know

What has troubled me until now is that the bomb was way too small to do any real damage to the car or anyone else more than 10 feet away. Also remember this story from a few days ago? Teen held with bombs at poll rally

Shaheen Khan, an official who was on security duty at the rally, said the boy was carrying explosive material and nails in his pocket.
He said the quantity of explosives—about 200 grams - would not have caused casualties but could have set off panic in the crowd.

This was a failed attempt at the same trick. The bomb is too small to kill the politician, just the assassin he's standing next to.

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

Where did you see pictures of the inside of her vehicle (link)? Just curious.

re: #18 Ward Cleaver

I posted a video on the previous Bhutto thread in the spinoff links.

re: #18 Ward Cleaver

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

Where did you see pictures of the inside of her vehicle (link)? Just curious.

Head wounds bleed profusely.

re: #18 Ward Cleaver

Also- this video has footage of the inside of the vehicle.

We must send in Rosie to investigate in order to get to the troof,er...truth of the matter. (which,of course,MUST reveal that a Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Smith& Wesson/Whoever made the limo/Whoever installed the sunroof/Limo driver/CIA/FBI/Republican Party/Vast Right Wing conspiracy is to blame. Did I leave out anybody?

Dear me.

re: #11 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I could go either way on that theory but it makes sense to have this done by a two man team. It's a lot to expect for one man to fire the shots then hit the detonator on his bomb before he's tackled.

re: #17 Killgore Trout

re: #3 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Or as a backup. Maybe we'll never know

What has troubled me until now is that the bomb was way too small to do any real damage to the car or anyone else more than 10 feet away. Also remember this story from a few days ago? Teen held with bombs at poll rally

Shaheen Khan, an official who was on security duty at the rally, said the boy was carrying explosive material and nails in his pocket.
He said the quantity of explosives—about 200 grams - would not have caused casualties but could have set off panic in the crowd.

This was a failed attempt at the same trick. The bomb is too small to kill the politician, just the assassin he's standing next to.

Your last sentence is VERY interesting. What if there was a pistol-armed co-conspirator who wasn't captured with the 15-year-old.

How could the bomb be "too small" to kill the politician, when it killed 2 dozen bystanders farther away from him than Bhutto was?

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

I am not so sure about that at all. Any skull laceration can result in an extensive of amount of blood lose. I saw the pictures and it is entirely possible that could be from a laceration.

re: #27 Claire

How could the bomb be "too small" to kill the politician, when it killed 2 dozen bystanders farther away from him than Bhutto was?

Bomb-proof vehicle.

Ok it was a bullet.. and a bomb to finish off the people near by.. Musharrif should admit the fact of the bullet.. her people should call for the terrorist killers to be fought, not the government. If pakistan doesn't protect it's nukes from radical Islamics, or a anti western government comes into power.. I'd say its nuke their nukes time.. no threats, no warnings, just get it done. Letting them get moved arround.. while some diplomats talk about it a few months or years will result in millions of deaths, many our people.

re: #25 Killgore Trout

re: #11 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I could go either way on that theory but it makes sense to have this done by a two man team. It's a lot to expect for one man to fire the shots then hit the detonator on his bomb before he's tackled.

Precisely. Lets the gunman concentrate on his task.

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

I don't know about that. I was once assaulted with iron fire poker (the kind that you see in front of people's fire places sometimes). My skull wasn't fractured and I only received about 6 blows to the head, but my sweat-shirt was soaked in blood. I guess there are a lot of veins in the skull.

That said, I'm not convinced either way about whether she was hit with a bullet or not. She shouldn't have been standing out of the sunroof and the security sucked, is what it comes down to for me.

re: #21 Lucius Septimius

Head wounds bleed profusely.

Yes, but not all head wounds bleed. I've been struck in the head, suffered a concussion and didn't bleed at all. I think she was shot, thus the blood.

re: #29 MandyManners

re: #27 Claire

How could the bomb be "too small" to kill the politician, when it killed 2 dozen bystanders farther away from him than Bhutto was?

Bomb-proof vehicle.

Yeah that's true, but bomb-proof vehicles don't function as well when morons stand up in them and stick their ivy league heads out!

re: #28 Nevergiveup

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

I am not so sure about that at all. Any skull laceration can result in an extensive of amount of blood lose. I saw the pictures and it is entirely possible that could be from a laceration.

I bled more when I got hit in the forehead with an axe, and there wasn't even a skull fracture.

Kilgore, you misinterpreted what I was saying earlier, I was hoping to keep all the evidence in that thread, but tis ok since Charles opened this one.

Who the hell has been attacking my fellow lizards?

re: #35 Thanos

re: #28 Nevergiveup

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

I am not so sure about that at all. Any skull laceration can result in an extensive of amount of blood lose. I saw the pictures and it is entirely possible that could be from a laceration.

I bled more when I got hit in the forehead with an axe, and there wasn't even a skull fracture.

who'd you piss off?

A firearm that is discharged near hair will cause it to lift up. Same for light clothing.

Not totally conclusive, IMHO.

~Norsk Troll

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Not much doubt about this one. The suicide bomber now makes more sense now. He was there to kill the assassin not Bhutto.

the second shooter was on a suicide mission

re: #38 pegcity

re: #35 Thanos

re: #28 Nevergiveup

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

I am not so sure about that at all. Any skull laceration can result in an extensive of amount of blood lose. I saw the pictures and it is entirely possible that could be from a laceration.

I bled more when I got hit in the forehead with an axe, and there wasn't even a skull fracture.

who'd you piss off?

Nobody, I was sleeping in a tent and someone decided to pound the pegs in tighter and missed.

re: #26 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What if there was a pistol-armed co-conspirator who wasn't captured with the 15-year-old.

Yup, that's what I'm thinking.

re: #40 Airedale

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Not much doubt about this one. The suicide bomber now makes more sense now. He was there to kill the assassin not Bhutto.

the second shooter was on a suicide mission

Homicide/suicide

re: #37 debutaunt

Who the hell has been attacking my fellow lizards?

Some girl's jealous ex-boyfriend came at me from behind like a punk.

re: #23 WayDownSouthInBama

We must send in Rosie to investigate in order to get to the troof,er...truth of the matter. (which,of course,MUST reveal that a Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Smith& Wesson/Whoever made the limo/Whoever installed the sunroof/Limo driver/CIA/FBI/Republican Party/Vast Right Wing conspiracy is to blame. Did I leave out anybody?

Zionists. You forgot about the Zionists.

re: #33 Sharmuta

re: #21 Lucius Septimius

Head wounds bleed profusely.

Yes, but not all head wounds bleed. I've been struck in the head, suffered a concussion and didn't bleed at all. I think she was shot, thus the blood.

The very first report (which the Gov't suppressed for some unfathomable reason) said the bullet entered her neck and exited her lower skull. The report said that it was the extreme damage to her spine cord which caused her death.

This would fit, since the bullet from the dark-glasses guy was obviously travelling upwards when it struck her.

re: #27 Claire

How could the bomb be "too small" to kill the politician, when it killed 2 dozen bystanders farther away from him than Bhutto was?

Bhutto was in an armored(bullet resistant)suv.the vehicle survived the exposion i belive.

re: #32 konservo

My initial assessment is the one I'm sticking with- islam killed her.

re: #34 Nevergiveup

re: #29 MandyManners

re: #27 Claire

How could the bomb be "too small" to kill the politician, when it killed 2 dozen bystanders farther away from him than Bhutto was?

Bomb-proof vehicle.

Yeah that's true, but bomb-proof vehicles don't function as well when morons stand up in them and stick their ivy league heads out!

She fell down/was jerked down before the detonation.

re: #23 WayDownSouthInBama

We must send in Rosie to investigate in order to get to the troof,er...truth of the matter. (which,of course,MUST reveal that a Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Smith& Wesson/Whoever made the limo/Whoever installed the sunroof/Limo driver/CIA/FBI/Republican Party/Vast Right Wing conspiracy is to blame. Did I leave out anybody?

Will Rosie be doing her own "Suicide bomb" testing to confirm/deny the official party line?

Oh, Wait!

She already did!

/The View

~Norsk Troll

The Pakistani government better get it's shite together on this one.

The video proves it was a gunman ...

re: #48 Sharmuta

I agree.

re: #1 Killgore Trout

was the shooter killed by the suicide bomb?

re: #47 Boondock St. Bender

the vehicle survived the exposion i belive.

It's not only survived, it drove her to the hospital.

re: #53 natemannq

yup.

re: #49 MandyManners

re: #34 Nevergiveup

re: #29 MandyManners

re: #27 Claire

How could the bomb be "too small" to kill the politician, when it killed 2 dozen bystanders farther away from him than Bhutto was?

Bomb-proof vehicle.

Yeah that's true, but bomb-proof vehicles don't function as well when morons stand up in them and stick their ivy league heads out!

She fell down/was jerked down before the detonation.

Yeah- and that worked out well?

re: #38 pegcity

re: #35 Thanos

re: #28 Nevergiveup

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

I am not so sure about that at all. Any skull laceration can result in an extensive of amount of blood lose. I saw the pictures and it is entirely possible that could be from a laceration.

I bled more when I got hit in the forehead with an axe, and there wasn't even a skull fracture.

who'd you piss off?

My question as well. I had a cut on my forehead when I was a kid and bled all over the place.

re: #44 konservo

you did return the favor...right?

re: #12 BigPapa

One must admit, the rise of islamism on Bush's watch is disconcerting and black & white.

re: #42 Killgore Trout

re: #26 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What if there was a pistol-armed co-conspirator who wasn't captured with the 15-year-old.

Yup, that's what I'm thinking.

Here's something else (now pretty much in the trivia department.)

Videos I've seen show the security man on the left rear of the SUV getting off at least two shots before the bomb explosion. We'll never know, but I think it's likely that he got the shooter.

re: #48 Sharmuta

BINGO!

re: #59 natemannq

re: #12 BigPapa

One must admit, the rise of islamism on Bush's watch is disconcerting and black & white.

I think you mean the REVEALING OF ISLAMISM, don't ya?

Thought so ...

re: #59 natemannq

re: #12 BigPapa

One must admit, the rise of islamism on Bush's watch is disconcerting and black & white.

Not true. Radical islam was on the rise well before Bush ever got near the White House. People may be more aware of it after 9/11, but it is nothing new.

re: #59 natemannq

re: #12 BigPapa

One must admit, the rise of islamism on Bush's watch is disconcerting and black & white.

Sure it's disconcerting. But is it despite Bush or because of Bush? Islam and terror have a long history of success before Bush.

Charles,

A few other Lizaroids seem to agree with my view that the video doesn't strongly show she was shot. All the hair and scarf movement could have been due to her rapid reaction in ducking.

Yes, she was shot AT.

The government have offered to have the body exhumed for anyone to re-check the conclusions. Why won't those who insist she was actually shot ask to do so?

I don't shill for either side(s) of this. I just don't think the video is conclusive.

Remember, we all thought the Israelis shot Al Dura. Some still do (misguidedly)!

re: #54 Killgore Trout

re: #47 Boondock St. Bender

the vehicle survived the exposion i belive.

It's not only survived, it drove her to the hospital.

Keep your head(and other sensitive body parts) inside the vehicle at all times!(especially if it's armored.)

re: #7 avideditorla.com

Does it really matter if the shooter, bomber, or lid to her SUV killed her? She is dead. IMHO she was not a good person. The lesser of two evils is not something to morn. Her rule messed up the country to the point where Jihadis could flourish. I shed no tears for her.

Yep, it just doesn't matter- so what, lots of us don't care. Just don't want the Jihadists to get the bomb any sooner that possible. Iran is next, yikes!

re: #65 maven

Why won't those who insist she was actually shot ask to do so?

Her family has to request it.

re: #9 Airedale

Did anybody notice the # of camera phones so close to Benazir at the time of bomb detonation?

Wonder if the ISI confiscated any of those if they actually survived the blast that is.

We may still see more video on this matter in the future

Yes, I noticed at least two cellphones near the car in one video.

re: #43 debutaunt

re: #40 Airedale

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Not much doubt about this one. The suicide bomber now makes more sense now. He was there to kill the assassin not Bhutto.

the second shooter was on a suicide mission

Homicide/suicide

They only had to get lucky once.
How many failed attemppts have there been on her since October that were stopped?

...How many would be 72 virgin hunters were further down the road awaiting their turn at mayrterdom?
not necessarily down the road on that thursday parade route but a few weeks down the road waiting for thier one lucky chance ?
The tinfoil hatters will be satisfied with their chance now to find "the truth"

re: #58 Boondock St. Bender

re: #44 konservo

you did return the favor...right?

I was a little disoriented at the time, so not me personally. I was working at a Good-Will donation site at the time, loading funiture onto a big truck, and what he didn't know was that 3 of my friends were up in the truck. So while I was getting myself cleaned up, with the help of a friend who works at an animal hospital next door, my buddies were "thanking" the guy for me. :) Good friends.

If only we had these many cameras when Kennedy was shot, we would have video footage of the CIA shooting him. lol

OK, somebody wants to blame this on Bush/Cheney/Halliburton - so I guess it's a big deal whether it was guns or bombs or levers that did her in -- but I still don't get what difference it makes.

re: #41 Thanos

re: #38 pegcity

re: #35 Thanos

re: #28 Nevergiveup

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

I am not so sure about that at all. Any skull laceration can result in an extensive of amount of blood lose. I saw the pictures and it is entirely possible that could be from a laceration.

I bled more when I got hit in the forehead with an axe, and there wasn't even a skull fracture.

who'd you piss off?

Nobody, I was sleeping in a tent and someone decided to pound the pegs in tighter and missed.

HOLY MOLY--you are very lucky, I'd say. You must have scared the holy somethingelse out of the guy who did it!

re: #19 song_and_dance_man

What I don't understand is why the official Pakistan line was death by skull fracture and why they would try to cover up just what happened.

If she was killed by an enemy, she is a martyr. If killed by a fall, she's just clumsy. The Pak govt does not want her seen as a martyr

re: #68 Sharmuta

re: #65 maven

Why won't those who insist she was actually shot ask to do so?

Her family has to request it.

And ... unfortunately for Pakistan ... her family and many in the PPP seem more interested in hammering Musharraf and company. Yes, it would bolster their case if a gunshot was proven by an autopsy. On the other hand, they're convinced that Musharraf is evil incarnate. It's the Pakistan equivallent of BDS, and it's crippling their thought processes.

re: #73 AuldTrafford

Why do you have a Gunners avatar and a Man U nic ?

Sharmuta's video link shows how the car was pock marked by the bomb.
If she was still outside the car, it would be near impossible to avoid being hit by shrapnel (ball bearings etc.).

re: #75 SpringheelJack

re: #19 song_and_dance_man

What I don't understand is why the official Pakistan line was death by skull fracture and why they would try to cover up just what happened.

If she was killed by an enemy, she is a martyr. If killed by a fall, she's just clumsy. The Pak govt does not want her seen as a martyr

But she fell on account of the attack - maybe even the blast from the bomb - wasn't for the attack she'd still be alive (does someone argue she just - coincidentally - fell, as in klutz?) So ... ?

re: #77 threecoloursblue

I just like EPL football, and at the time I chose the avatar, the Arsenal one showed up better. Looks like the avatar quality is improving - will have to look for a Man U crest.

How about the race this year? Still haven't bet on either side, but it's a great drama ...!

re: #5 Gordon Marock

The question is why would the government risk such a cover story when they are admitting that shots were actually fired? Maybe it has something to do with recovery of the bullet fragments from Bhutto.

Or perhaps merely incompetance.

re: #75 SpringheelJack

re: #19 song_and_dance_man

What I don't understand is why the official Pakistan line was death by skull fracture and why they would try to cover up just what happened.

If she was killed by an enemy, she is a martyr. If killed by a fall, she's just clumsy. The Pak govt does not want her seen as a martyr

Hmmm and double-hmmm.

I've been wondering the same thing. Given the local politics, your comment sounds entirely plausible. Thanks.

re: #78 Carolyn

She'd fallen (or ducked, what th' hey) inside the car by the time the bomb was triggered.

re: #56 Nevergiveup

re: #49 MandyManners

re: #34 Nevergiveup

re: #29 MandyManners

re: #27 Claire

How could the bomb be "too small" to kill the politician, when it killed 2 dozen bystanders farther away from him than Bhutto was?

Bomb-proof vehicle.

Yeah that's true, but bomb-proof vehicles don't function as well when morons stand up in them and stick their ivy league heads out!

She fell down/was jerked down before the detonation.

Yeah- and that worked out well?

She'd be alive if she had stayed down.

BTW, how did the killer(s) know she'd be out of her vehicle at the moment she passed?

re: #62 LSD

Actually, I've been pretty disgusted with Bush's refusal to confront it..

1.) Depose Saddam (good thing) but install an inslamist government that allows the persecution of Christians TO INCLUDE crucifixions

2.) Gaza GIVEN to palestinians who proceed to elect Hamas

3.) Funding Fatah with weapons that ultimately end up in Hamas hands

4.) Pakistan (nuff said)

5.) Condoleezza Rice calling hamas a "resistance movement"

6.) Refusal to identify the enemy (islam)

"You accepted shame to avoid war. Now you have both."
- Winston Churchill

re: #83 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #78 Carolyn

She'd fallen (or ducked, what th' hey) inside the car by the time the bomb was triggered.

A little hard to believe a plain little old fall - even if it bloodied her up - would be enough to do a fatal skull fracture; the skull is a very hard bone; pretty tough nut to crack.

re: #59 natemannq

re: #12 BigPapa

One must admit, the rise of islamism on Bush's watch is disconcerting and black & white.

It rose during the Clinton Administration. Most of us started paying attention on 9-11-01.

In this photo it looks to me like the bomber (the man with the white shawl) is either holding or removing a shawl or covering over the shooter. This makes it look to me that they are working together.

re: #80 AuldTrafford

You haven't had a bet yet ! Fairweather supporter !

/Man U rules!

re: #86 AuldTrafford

re: #83 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #78 Carolyn

She'd fallen (or ducked, what th' hey) inside the car by the time the bomb was triggered.

A little hard to believe a plain little old fall - even if it bloodied her up - would be enough to do a fatal skull fracture; the skull is a very hard bone; pretty tough nut to crack.

The body guards supposedly jerked her into the car by her legs.

re: #84 MandyManners

Mandy, maybe they were merely one team of many there that day.

See Airedale's #70 above.

Also, see Killgore's and my running commentary further up referring to the 15-boy who was caught wearing a bomb several days ago.

re: #63 Nevergiveup

Nothing new, correct...

However, his refusal to identify the real enemy has caused more problems..

Going into Iraq with a policy that mandated democracy without freedom of religion has resulted in the persecution of Christians (far worse than they were treated under Saddam - Rober Spencer admitted as much on my radio show)...

George Bush is like a guy that climbed halfway up a mountain and became paralyzed with fear...

His refusal to identify our enemy has caused more harm than doing nothing.

re: #89 threecoloursblue

Still - gotta admit Wenger has done very well after losing Henry to Barca. An amazing run, especially considering there's been a bit of a back-room dispute about selling out to American interests ala Man U & Liverpool.

Not enough people around here follow it enough to want to bet.

re: #91 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #84 MandyManners

Mandy, maybe they were merely one team of many there that day.

See Airedale's #70 above.

Also, see Killgore's and my running commentary further up referring to the 15-boy who was caught wearing a bomb several days ago.

A whole posse of gunners and bombers? Good gravy.

re: #73 AuldTrafford

OK, somebody wants to blame this on Bush/Cheney/Halliburton - so I guess it's a big deal whether it was guns or bombs or levers that did her in -- but I still don't get what difference it makes.

It makes a big difference to the BDS crowd. If they can make any kind of half-a$$ed claim that Musharraf was behind this,it gives them hope to do damage to the Bush administration,and a hope for a win in November. They have hated Musharraf because Bush backed him. In fact,look for this to generate even crazier conspiracy theories involving the CIA and Bush than 9/11 ever began to spawn. Mark it down. We'll be hearing crazy crap from the left about this clear up until the elections.

The more I think about Bhutto's actions in the last few weeks the more revolted I am. In this country, if you own a bar or throw a party at your house and allow an obviously drunk individual to get into a car and he or she proceeds to kill someone in an accident, you can be charged with man slaughter.
Since her return to Pakistan she has been indirectly responsible for the death of over 200 Innocent individuals. This type of violence was completely predictable. She should have known better and so should have those who urged her to follow this ludicrous course of action.
Her arrogant contempt for the consequences of her actions has thrown the country she professed to love into chaos. If that is leadership, g-d help us all!

re: #84 MandyManners

BTW, how did the killer(s) know she'd be out of her vehicle at the moment she passed?

Initial reports said that as the car left the gated area, a group started chanting for her, possibly blocking the way. She supposedly rose to acknowledge the chant. The whole thing sounds like a set up.

re: #87 MandyManners

I won't deny that. However, I will also not play partisan games..

Bush's performance has been abysmal in this global war on jihadism mainly for one reason..

...He won't call it a global war on jiadism...

Consequently, we're fighting ghosts..

re: #87 MandyManners

re: #59 natemannq

re: #12 BigPapa

One must admit, the rise of islamism on Bush's watch is disconcerting and black & white.

It rose during the Clinton Administration. Most of us started paying attention on 9-11-01.

It began to grow and attacked under Carter.

re: #93 AuldTrafford

Not enough people... What does that do to the odds ? Or do they take them directly from U.K. ?

re: #90 Carolyn

re: #86 AuldTrafford

re: #83 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #78 Carolyn

She'd fallen (or ducked, what th' hey) inside the car by the time the bomb was triggered.

A little hard to believe a plain little old fall - even if it bloodied her up - would be enough to do a fatal skull fracture; the skull is a very hard bone; pretty tough nut to crack.

The body guards supposedly jerked her into the car by her legs.

Unless someone's arguing that those inside the car intended to kill her (as opposed to trying to protect her), the legal/moral result is the same - the attack killed her; doesn't matter the exact mechanism.

re: #14 Thanos

With that white scarf, if she had been hit with a bullet, we would have seen something red, would we not?

The video proves she was shot at. Whether she was hit is another question.

"there's a lot more air out there than meat" - A Marine DI one upon a time

Head and shoulders even at close range is a small target. An autopsy would be conclusive. Puzzled by the clumsiness of the government in handling this.

An aide that helped bathe Bhutto's body saw a bullet wound.

re: #84 MandyManners

She often did that.

re: #99 Lucius Septimius

Agreed...

My only contention is that under Bush's watch he continues to refuse to identify the enemy.

That's the biggest mistake you can make in war.

re: #102 TimeQuake

re: #14 Thanos

With that white scarf, if she had been hit with a bullet, we would have seen something red, would we not?

Hi all,

Not sure the bullet went through her head, also depends the angle in witch the video was shot.

re: #106 natemannq

re: #99 Lucius Septimius

Agreed...

My only contention is that under Bush's watch he continues to refuse to identify the enemy.

That's the biggest mistake you can make in war.

I agree with you 100% on that point.

re: #100 threecoloursblue

My bets are pretty much limited to friendlies - don't trust the internet betting schemes. So, with no one around to bet with, I just follow it all for fun.

For the record, I did pick Man U (in writing to my son) at the beginning of the season, Liverpool as second, and Tottenham to make it to next year's CL. Also West Ham to make the top 10. Doing pretty well, except for Tottenham. Also picked Barca for CL - and the USWNT in the WWC (didn't do so well there).

re: #94 MandyManners

re: #91 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #84 MandyManners

Mandy, maybe they were merely one team of many there that day.

See Airedale's #70 above.

Also, see Killgore's and my running commentary further up referring to the 15-boy who was caught wearing a bomb several days ago.

A whole posse of gunners and bombers? Good gravy.

Al-Q and the Pak-Taliban were extremely intent upon getting her. If she had won the Prime Ministership, she could have been much more dangerous to them than Musharraf.

Whatever her faults, whatever the sins of her two previous administrations, lately she'd been on an absolute tear of condemnation of the Islamist radicals. Given her charisma and public following, the Islamists could NOT let her win the election.

re: #84 MandyManners

pure luck,salt the route with willing assasins,choose areas wisely.hope for the best(or in their case worst)much like tree stand deer hunting.
who knows how many aborted attempts there were?we only know of the failed and successful.

Hmmm, the use of a gunman and suicide bomber together is either a strange coincidence or a new tactic. Does anyone here know of an incidence where terrorists used a bomb and gun together?
Also, the brain uses 20% of the blood in the body. Head wounds bleed profusely.

Michael Savage has amended his lawsuit against CAIR.

[...]
The San Francisco-based talker has amended his lawsuit against CAIR for misusing audio clips of his show as part of a boycott campaign against his three-hour daily program to include charges the group "has consistently sought to silence opponents of violent terror through economic blackmail, frivolous but costly lawsuits, threats of lawsuits and abuses of the legal system."

The amended lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Northern California, also charges CAIR with using extortion, threats, abuse of the court system, and obtaining money via interstate commerce under false and fraudulent circumstances – calling it a "political vehicle of international terrorism" and even linking the group with support of al-Qaida.
[...]

via Jihad Watch

re: #92 natemannq

re: #63 Nevergiveup

However, his refusal to identify the real enemy has caused more problems..

His refusal to identify our enemy has caused more harm than doing nothing.

Yes, I agree. The day after 9/11 didn't he say islam was a religion of peace ?

re: #113 stevieray

Michael Savage has amended his lawsuit against CAIR.

[...]
The San Francisco-based talker has amended his lawsuit against CAIR for misusing audio clips of his show as part of a boycott campaign against his three-hour daily program to include charges the group "has consistently sought to silence opponents of violent terror through economic blackmail, frivolous but costly lawsuits, threats of lawsuits and abuses of the legal system."

The amended lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Northern California, also charges CAIR with using extortion, threats, abuse of the court system, and obtaining money via interstate commerce under false and fraudulent circumstances – calling it a "political vehicle of international terrorism" and even linking the group with support of al-Qaida.
[...]

via Jihad Watch

Yup that sums up CAIR

re: #102 TimeQuake

re: #14 Thanos

With that white scarf, if she had been hit with a bullet, we would have seen something red, would we not?

Thanos said he was going to pull down the video and still-frame analyze it. I've been waiting with bated breath.

THANOS! Got anything yet?!

Falls are the biggest cause of death in older adults. (tongue in cheek, but BB wasn't a spring chicken)
[Link: www.feetforlife.org...]

re: #114 Ashamed to be Dutch

Yes, and he said "islamo-facism" once and then cowered like the Pope...

Either we fight or we don't...

We shouldn't throw a punch and then cover up...

Is this a thread about bashing Bush or Benazir Bhutto's death?

re: #39 EtNorskTroll

A firearm that is discharged near hair will cause it to lift up. Same for light clothing.

Not totally conclusive, IMHO.

~Norsk Troll

Sure - I agree..Dig her body up and you will see. Musharrif would NOT let her be exhumed unless he was 100% confident in the official line. There is no conspiracy. Al-Qaeada and the Taleban are in his backyard. He Knows it, We know it, Bhutto (numbskull) knew it. And the simple fact is he's telling the truth and wants extremism out of Pakistan. He loves his country more than money or power or fame. The guy's no fake

re: #99 Lucius Septimius

And it was brewing since at last the end of the first world war.
"from acorns do giant pains in the asses grow."

What shall I take from the silence of those who wanted to debate me but refuse after I present facts about Bush's cowardice?

re: #99 Lucius Septimius

re: #87 MandyManners

re: #59 natemannq

re: #12 BigPapa

One must admit, the rise of islamism on Bush's watch is disconcerting and black & white.

It rose during the Clinton Administration. Most of us started paying attention on 9-11-01.

It began to grow and attacked under Carter.

It began with the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1919, and will continue until some sort of caliphate is re-established.

Subject: Nag Nag Nag

An attorney arrived home late, after a very tough day trying to get a stay of execution for a client who was due to be hanged for murder at midnight .

His last minute plea for clemency to the governor had failed and he was feeling worn out and depressed.

As soon as he walked through the door at home, his wife started on him about, "What time of night to be getting home is this? Where have you been?"

"Dinner is cold and I'm not reheating it".

And on and on and on.

Too shattered to play his usual role in this familiar ritual, he went and poured himself a shot of whiskey and headed off for a long hot soak in the bathtub, pursued by the predictable sarcastic remarks as he drug himself up the stairs.

While he was in the bath, the phone rang. The wife answered and was told that her husband's client, James Wright, had been granted a stay of execution after all. Wright would not be hanged tonight.

Finally realizing what a terrible day he must have had, she decided to go upstairs and give him the good news.

As she opened the bathroom door, she was greeted by the sight of her husband, bent over naked, drying his legs and feet. "They're not hanging Wright tonight," she said. To which he whirled around and screamed, "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WOMAN, DON'T YOU EVER STOP?!"

re: #75 SpringheelJack

re: #19 song_and_dance_man

What I don't understand is why the official Pakistan line was death by skull fracture and why they would try to cover up just what happened.

If she was killed by an enemy, she is a martyr. If killed by a fall, she's just clumsy. The Pak govt does not want her seen as a martyr

Bingo.

re: #119 Sharmuta

It's a thread about Bush's refusal to identify our current enemy as a partial reason for Bhutto's death.

re: #119 Sharmuta

I assume it's about bashing Benazir Bhutto's death.

(-: (yanking your chain)

re: #126 natemannq

re: #119 Sharmuta

It's a thread about Bush's refusal to identify our current enemy as a partial reason for Bhutto's death.

pretty sure he has said we are fighting radical islam.
not sure why you are baiting...

re: #123 stevieray

This enemy only accepts a truce until it feels deceptive enough to win..

You are correct about the Ottoman empire.

re: #128 trailortrash

I'll stop baiting when he takes out the word, "radical"

re: #116 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #102 TimeQuake

re: #14 Thanos

With that white scarf, if she had been hit with a bullet, we would have seen something red, would we not?

Thanos said he was going to pull down the video and still-frame analyze it. I've been waiting with bated breath.

THANOS! Got anything yet?!

Yes! There surely should be something red or some splatter or somethiing--like her head being propelled back and forth with the impact.
I also wonder about the chances that the gunman could have known BB was going to stand up. The crowd was moving; the car was moving--what was he planning--to run along side it and shoot when someone rolled down the window. yeah, right.

A cover up? You're joking right. Governments do that?
Hmmm...Must have taken a few pages out of the JFK assassination.
Hospital records tampered with? No, I'm shocked.
JFK was hit with a slingshot remember? Come on, dozens of ballistic experts will testify or write #1 best-sellers.
Yes, physicists too. It was not just an ordinary slingshot,
but one that can rip a man's brain out. 3 gunshots fired at Bhutto?
Naw, they were just firecrackers. Just because a man wears sunglasses...
Well, once again, book publishers will have a field day with this one
and laugh all the way to the private islands they'll purchase with the profits.

/me cynical? never.

re: #130 natemannq

With all due respect, you just exposed yourself.

Don't forget, its election season in Pakistan now.

Even though its obvious Bhutto was killed by an assassin, the reason for the coverup is for Musharraf's gov't to deflect criticism over improperly protecting her.

Now all parties are trying to gain partisan political advantage in a blame game. (It doesn't just happen in the USA!).

re: #126 natemannq

That's a bit of a stretch.

re: #133 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Walid Shoebat, former Palestinian terrorist admits that ISLAM IS THE PROBLEM (not radical)...

Are you willing to face the truth?

re: #130 natemannq

re: #128 trailortrash

I'll stop baiting when he takes out the word, "radical"

So what's your "final solution" to this problem? Kill all of the Muslims?

i have some muslim neighbors, i dont eat with them but they dont blow me or my family up so...
i think it is the more radicalized and not the passive muslims we are fighting.

OT -
Did Charles just add avatars to the 'spin-off links'? I don't think I noticed them before..

re: #134 looking closely

Don't forget, its election season in Pakistan now.

Even though its obvious Bhutto was killed by an assassin, the reason for the coverup is for Musharraf's gov't to deflect criticism over improperly protecting her.

Now all parties are trying to gain partisan political advantage in a blame game. (It doesn't just happen in the USA!).

True,politics by its very nature is a scummy buisiness.

re: #137 WayDownSouthInBama

Absolutely not...

Did I once say that?

re: #141 natemannq

re: #137 WayDownSouthInBama

Absolutely not...

Did I once say that?

Then let's hear your solution.

Folks, President Bush can't declare war on anyone or anything; only Congress can do that.

We have Muslims who are loyal Americans; how could the president condemn all Muslims?

What do you want him to do about it other than what he is? What CAN he reasonably do?

From WorldNet Daily:

Sherry Rehman, a close aid to Benazir Bhutto told news agencies she saw a bullet wound in Bhutto's head when she bathed the body in preparation for burial.

"I was actually part of the party which bathed her body before the funeral," she told Dawn. "There was a bullet wound I saw that went in from the back of her head and came out the other side. We could not even wash her properly because the wound was still seeping. She lost a huge amount of blood."

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

re: #136 natemannq

re: #133 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Walid Shoebat, former Palestinian terrorist admits that ISLAM IS THE PROBLEM (not radical)...

Are you willing to face the truth?

Again, with all due respect, you are ultimately making an ad hominem argument. Just because I don't agree 100% with you, there is therefore something wrong with me. Would you do that to someone's face?

re: #138 trailortrash

i have some muslim neighbors, i dont eat with them but they dont blow me or my family up so...
i think it is the more radicalized and not the passive muslims we are fighting.

Do they unhesitatingly condemn the violence done by the radicals?

re: #139 Yankee Division Son

OT -
Did Charles just add avatars to the 'spin-off links'? I don't think I noticed them before..

Noticed the same a few minutes ago, thanks' for this additional cool feature !

i simply do not understand why it matters one iota whether she was shot, bombed, or hit her head. the assassin's goal was to have her dead, he succeeded - and thus, she was assassinated.

re: #139 Yankee Division Son

OT -
Did Charles just add avatars to the 'spin-off links'? I don't think I noticed them before..

AVATARS!
AVATARS
A PLETHORA OF AVATARS!

Why would they directly cite: American and British security protection?

This whole ordeal is a true tragedy.

re: #146 AuldTrafford

re: #138 trailortrash

i have some muslim neighbors, i dont eat with them but they dont blow me or my family up so...
i think it is the more radicalized and not the passive muslims we are fighting.

Do they unhesitatingly condemn the violence done by the radicals?

never talked to them but to say hi lol

re: #138 trailortrash

I think you're missing something... I had the good fortune of speaking with former Palestinian terrorist Walid Shoebat on December 16th

He breaks muslims down into two camps.

1.) Liberal muslims (not really that religious)
2.) Devout muslims (dangerous)

Have a listen to him and decide for yourself.

re: #148 so.cal.swede

i simply do not understand why it matters one iota whether she was shot, bombed, or hit her head. the assassin's goal was to have her dead, he succeeded - and thus, she was assassinated.

Exactly right.

re: #146 AuldTrafford

re: #138 trailortrash

i have some muslim neighbors, i dont eat with them but they dont blow me or my family up so...
i think it is the more radicalized and not the passive muslims we are fighting.

Do they unhesitatingly condemn the violence done by the radicals?

And "if" they do so, is it sincere ?

re: #152 natemannq

re: #138 trailortrash

I think you're missing something... I had the good fortune of speaking with former Palestinian terrorist Walid Shoebat on December 16th

He breaks muslims down into two camps.

1.) Liberal muslims (not really that religious)
2.) Devout muslims (dangerous)

Have a listen to him and decide for yourself.

Wow! You actually talked with Shoebat?

re: #134 looking closely

Don't forget, its election season in Pakistan now.

Even though its obvious Bhutto was killed by an assassin, the reason for the coverup is for Musharraf's gov't to deflect criticism over improperly protecting her.

Now all parties are trying to gain partisan political advantage in a blame game. (It doesn't just happen in the USA!).

While I do not doubt that the Musharraf government could have done more to protect her, remember a few things:
1) She was told not to arrange and attend certain rallies. This happened to be one of them.
2) They have tryed to assassinate Musharraf multiple times also. He changed his way of living accordingly. He doesn't have or attend those types of public events.
3) Pakistan is inherently unsafe.
4) She is a moron for putting herself and her country in this position.
5) Sit the fuck down in the car.

re: #142 WayDownSouthInBama

Challenge Islam... Read the Qur'an... Show us it's peaceful...

This IS the site that calls it the ROP, right?

What are we talking about here?

re: #148 so.cal.swede

i simply do not understand why it matters one iota whether she was shot, bombed, or hit her head. the assassin's goal was to have her dead, he succeeded - and thus, she was assassinated.

Would you please go away and let us do our trivial nit-picking in peace!

(-:

The shawl jumping looks damning, but the video doesn't make plain how low that shawl is hanging at the moment. Could it have lifted on one side when guards inside the car grabbed her from the other side and pulled? Looks like the JFK conspiracy theory books will have to share some shelf space.

re: #155 Allah al Fubar

Interviewed him twice.

This is looking more like an attempt to change the direction of the election away from Musharrif than anything else.
As such, and knowing her email campaign blaming Musharrif in advance, I wouldn't be surprised if she had tried to get herself killed.
Islamists do it all the time, after all.
And with her 19-year-old almost non-irdu speaking son running in her place the corruption charges are gone.
He's an unknown factor, maybe a puppet of Sharif and his dad.
But he stands to win.

re: #136 natemannq

re: #133 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Walid Shoebat, former Palestinian terrorist admits that ISLAM IS THE PROBLEM (not radical)...

Are you willing to face the truth?

The export of Wahhabi,nd other extremist sects of islam are the root of the problem.whomsoever belives that god is reached,and pleased by rivers of blood from the unworthy.These are the enemy.the peaceful may lay at peace.
Its not a question of have we gone too far..
the ques. is do we have the intestinal fortitude to go as far as is needed.

re: #147 Ashamed to be Dutch

He's also parsing the website source of the link and displaying it under the link ... I think that's new too..

re: #152 natemannq

re: #138 trailortrash

I think you're missing something... I had the good fortune of speaking with former Palestinian terrorist Walid Shoebat on December 16th

He breaks muslims down into two camps.

1.) Liberal muslims (not really that religious)
2.) Devout muslims (dangerous)

Have a listen to him and decide for yourself.

Nope. Can't reduce it.

You said "Islam" was the problem, not merely a part of Islam.

re: #118 natemannq

Yes, and he said "islamo-facism" once and then cowered like the Pope...

Either we fight or we don't...

We shouldn't throw a punch and then cover up...

“How many divisions has the Pope?”

re: #156 Iron Fist

With all due respect...

We have installed an Islamic government in Iraq (al Da'wa) that has NO tolerance for Christians..

In fact, of the 700,000 Christians that lived in Iraq prior to the fall of Saddam, less than half are left there now and crucifixions have taken place in Basra...

I'm sorry but supporting a democracy in Iraq without mandating freedom of religion kind of makes things a little easier for islamists, don't you think?

One thing we can say:

She supported Democracy in the Middle East, and she had Big Balls.

/May she rest beside her father and brothers in peace, and may her heirs pursue her footsteps.

re: #161 natemannq

Do you have a website? If so, I'd like to study it. Please provide a link.

Thanks

re: #159 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #148 so.cal.swede

i simply do not understand why it matters one iota whether she was shot, bombed, or hit her head. the assassin's goal was to have her dead, he succeeded - and thus, she was assassinated.

Would you please go away and let us do our trivial nit-picking in peace!

(-:

hehe, I mean not only the lizards, the whole media circus seems obsessed to "prove" that she was either shot or hit her head. why? why is the paki govmnt. trying so hard to show xrays and stuff to show that she smashed her head?

I read somewhere they were afraid that people would blame them for lacking security if she was killed directly by the assassin, but JESUS! you let a murderer get within 6 feet of her with a loaded handgun, not to mention a guy strapping explosives.

your security FAILED MISERABLY whether she died from a bullet or choked on a ham sandwich the next day.

re: #167 natemannq

re: #156 Iron Fist

With all due respect...

We have installed an Islamic government in Iraq (al Da'wa) that has NO tolerance for Christians..

In fact, of the 700,000 Christians that lived in Iraq prior to the fall of Saddam, less than half are left there now and crucifixions have taken place in Basra...

I'm sorry but supporting a democracy in Iraq without mandating freedom of religion kind of makes things a little easier for islamists, don't you think?

Iraq held elections; we didn't install a government.

re: #166 EC Marm

re: #118 natemannq

Yes, and he said "islamo-facism" once and then cowered like the Pope...Either we fight or we don't...

We shouldn't throw a punch and then cover up...

“How many divisions has the Pope?”

Before or after the dead rise?

re: #158 natemannq

What are we talking about here?

Uh- Benazir Bhutto's death- but you seem to think it's an open invitation to trash the President.

re: #164 Yankee Division Son

I love it, helps seperate the wheat from the chaff.

re: #163 Boondock St. Bender

Agreed.

re: #166 EC Marm

re: #118 natemannq

Yes, and he said "islamo-facism" once and then cowered like the Pope...Either we fight or we don't...

We shouldn't throw a punch and then cover up...

“How many divisions has the Pope?”

You mean divisions of exorcists ?

/Running for cover ;-)

re: #169 Allah al Fubar

[Link: www.benbarrack.com...]

re: #167 natemannq

We have installed an Islamic government in Iraq (al Da'wa) that has NO tolerance for Christians..

Really?

re: #173 Sharmuta

Our president's policies contributed to this death, no?

Tell me, what good had Mr. Bush done?

And believe me, I'm no liberal...

re: #158 natemannq

re: #142 WayDownSouthInBama

Challenge Islam... Read the Qur'an... Show us it's peaceful...

This IS the site that calls it the ROP, right?

What are we talking about here?

I'm sorry,but we are at war. This is not a debate class with the terrorists. This is your solution?

re: #174 Edgesitter

I agree, very useful.

re: #152 natemannq

i understand all that and am aware of the lack of condemnation done by them.

sorry for delayed reply, my wife threw a plate full of crabcakes in front of me i got distracted :)

Quoting one individual from the vid - "ridiculous, dangerous nonsense."

Yes it is - incredibly stupid to try to change the facts when everyone and his/her cousin has a video camera everywhere, and those videos go straight to the public and around the world electronically, via TV and the Internet. I personally think that governments in places like this have stayed in power for a long time while engaging repeatedly in ham-fisted stupidity, and they have not quite caught up to the 21st century yet.

I wonder - is the Pakistan government trying to change the facts to cover up lax security? Was there lax security on purpose (which I doubt - I think they're just crappy at stuff like this)?

Is it just plain inadequacy on the part of the government (which would obviously be why Ms. Bhutto wanted western security people)?

Do they lie (and lie stupidly) because they've been doing it so long they're stuck in that rut? Perhaps.

re: #179 natemannq

re: #173 Sharmuta

Our president's policies contributed to this death, no?

Tell me, what good had Mr. Bush done?

And believe me, I'm no liberal...

I think you fail to understand the roots of the hatred against Bhutto in Pakistan, tip: It ain't US policy.

re: #121 Boondock St. Bender

re: #99 Lucius Septimius

And it was brewing since at last the end of the first world war.
"from acorns do giant pains in the asses grow."

1920: Wall Street Bombing- -Terrorism in America

Overview: At noon on September 16, 1920, a horse drawn buggy loaded with 100 pounds of dynamite and 500 pounds of cast- iron slugs exploded across the street from the J.P. Morgan bank headquarters in downtown Manhattan, New York. The explosion blew out windows for blocks around, killed 30 immediately, injured hundreds of others and completely destroyed the interior of the Morgan building.. Those responsible were never found, but evidence—in the form of a warning note received at a nearby office building—suggested anarchists.

Note: WW1 ended the centuries-old Turkish Empire/caliphate.

re: #171 goddessoftheclassroom

Yes, however, if we TRULY overthrew the government then we're in the position to mandate pre-conditions..

Namely, persecution of Christians (to include crucifixions) will NOT be tolerated..

Our "born again" president has turned a blind eye (with his policies) toward Iraqi Christians..

That's a fact.

Perhaps Scorsese is responsible... he needed to balance things out with a movie repeating "Forward and to the right, forward and to the right, FORward... and to the right".

re: #182 trailortrash

re: #152 natemannq

i understand all that and am aware of the lack of condemnation done by them.

sorry for delayed reply, my wife threw a plate full of crabcakes in front of me i got distracted :)

I hate you right now!(drool...tell me more...)

re: #176 Ashamed to be Dutch

Not quite a LOL what's the abbreviation for a chuckle.

re: #170 so.cal.swede

Yeah. The only reason I'm interested in the "how" is because of the effect upon Paki politics. I agree that her assassination is the essential truth here. Problem is, Pakistani politics tend strongly to revolve around the cult of personality. Given that, what happens past this point is the next essential truth we shall encounter. At the moment, it ain't lookin' so good!

re: #178 Sharmuta

I saw that report when it came out...

Notice the PEOPLE are asking for Christians to come back...

To ask them to come back means they've left...due to persecution..

re: #179 natemannq

I think you suffer from right-wing BDS.

re: #191 natemannq

I also think you're an idiot.

re: #180 WayDownSouthInBama

Are you prepared to identify Islam as the enemy (not muslims)?

re: #179 natemannq

re: #173 Sharmuta

Our president's policies contributed to this death, no?

Tell me, what good had Mr. Bush done?

And believe me, I'm no liberal...

That's incredibly illogical. There are laws of cause and effect, but that doesn't excuse you from the burden of providing statistical, objective data to prove that the cause and effect are correlated. For example, 20 apples fell from a tree. While that happened, I got a headache. I blame the apple tree.

re: #188 Boondock St. Bender

Crabcakes! I'll be right over!

re: #193 Sharmuta

Ah, there's the ad-hominem!

re: #188 Boondock St. Bender

LOL, they are sooo good

whoriled peas or is that WORLD PEACE LOL

re: #189 Edgesitter

Heh.

re: #195 Cattt

haha, i just looked at your avatar. brilliant.

OZMG, I IS GETTING READY FOR CATURDAY!

re: #192 Sharmuta

re: #179 natemannq

I think you suffer from right-wing BDS.

How does one agree?
Let me count the ways.

re: #65 maven

Charles, A few other Lizaroids seem to agree with my view that the video doesn't strongly show she was shot. All the hair and scarf movement could have been due to her rapid reaction in ducking.

I agree with this. I saw no impact. Nothing like Kennedy being shot. Yet another video is required.

An essential point is that the suicide bomber shows it must have been Islamic fundamentalists. Nobody would blow himself up for the Musharraf government. QED.

re: #194 natemannq

Are you prepared to kill everyone who identifies Islam as their religion because "Islam is our enemy"?

re: #194 natemannq

Are you prepared to identify Islam as the enemy (not muslims)?

Okay, I'll bite.

/then what?

re: #185 abolitionist

The world might have been better off if the "sick old man of europe"was left somewhat intact.remove a few small provinces.free some european holdings.Allow the poor creature to dotter along in corrupt self-interest.but on second thought maybe not.

re: #200 Killgore Trout

re: #189 Edgesitter

Heh.

Hope I can count on you, just in case it gets ugly... ;-)

re: #186 natemannq

re: #171 goddessoftheclassroom

Yes, however, if we TRULY overthrew the government then we're in the position to mandate pre-conditions..

Namely, persecution of Christians (to include crucifixions) will NOT be tolerated..

Our "born again" president has turned a blind eye (with his policies) toward Iraqi Christians..

That's a fact.

I think your fighting with the wrong crowd here. Most of us here I think share many of your frustrations with both the conduct of the war on terrorism and many of the wishy washy statements form this administration. But until further notice we live in a democratic state here. The President is not free to conduct the Affairs of State with out adequate public support as expressed thru the congress. In many respects we are lucky they have not pulled the plug completely and surrendered! We are all working towards the same end here. At least here, we should try and keep it civil.

re: #195 Cattt

The fact is that US policy in Iraq includes OVERTLY not protecting Christians..

If you deny that, you're simply not educated on the subject...

re: #201 so.cal.swede

re: #195 Cattt

re: Cattt's avatar

How'd you get that?
I LOVE IT!

re: #23 WayDownSouthInBama

We must send in Rosie to investigate in order to get to the troof,er...truth of the matter. (which,of course,MUST reveal that a Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Smith& Wesson/Whoever made the limo/Whoever installed the sunroof/Limo driver/CIA/FBI/Republican Party/Vast Right Wing conspiracy is to blame. Did I leave out anybody?

Yeah, you left out Karl Rove. Uncle Karl will not be happy and you may not receive your VRWC check this week. :)

re: #179 natemannq

Here is what "Mister" Bush has done.. Pardon me, if I call him the President of the United States of America:

1. He witnessed our country under attack, while reading at a school just north of me in a sleepy little town called Sarasota, Florida.

2. He conducted himself with great dignity and pride as he saw the Pentagon attacked.

3. He assembled a staff of leaders who did their best in a time of absolute torment.

4. He addressed this Nation with words that he never took back. Look up his post 9-11 speech and point out exactly what words he said that he did not carry out and act upon.

5. He helped to keep this Nation together after what was called the worst attack since Pearl Harbor.

6. He has stood by every word that he said. He says what he means, and he means what he says. See: 9/12 speech.

7. Despite the polls, and despite his own personal reputation, he has effectuated every single Act that he said he would enact, much to the chagrin of the likes of john effin kerry, rosie o'donnell and susan sarandon.

8. Bush may go down in flames from a political standpoint, but he will go down in History as a foreward thinking man who did what he felt best for his Country. He knows what faces us.

We're just not ready to face islam head on.

re: #210 pre-Boomer Marine brat

At least some of us are focusing on the positive side of this thread :-)

re: #204 WayDownSouthInBama

Not at all..

Identifying the enemy as an ideology (Nazism in WWII) didn't require the murder of all Nazis..

Broaden your focus, sir.

I can't believe people on this thread are blaming United States government officials for radical Islamic violence. The US is, in fact, a victim of radical Islam and now that we are taking action throughout the world it is somehow our foreign policy that is to blame. That's disgraceful thinking, Afghanistan was ignored and became a terrorist breeding ground. blame the U.S. for not stopping it sooner. Islamists kill a Pakistani politician, blame the U.S. for encouraging the world governments to crack down on terrorists.

re: #23 WayDownSouthInBama

We must send in Rosie to investigate in order to get to the troof,er...truth of the matter. (which,of course,MUST reveal that a Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Smith& Wesson/Whoever made the limo/Whoever installed the sunroof/Limo driver/CIA/FBI/Republican Party/Vast Right Wing conspiracy is to blame. Did I leave out anybody?

The Carolina Panthers were pretty cheesed about losing the Super Bowl
a few years ago. They may have been in on it.

re: #197 natemannq

I wasn't attacking your argument. That was my personal perception of you.

As for your argument- you were wrong. The Iraqi government would not have allowed a Catholic church to reopen if they had "NO tolerance" for Christians.

re: #206 Boondock St. Bender

Tell that (metaphorically, at least) to Kemal Ataturk.

re: #212 Allah al Fubar

We're just not ready to face islam head on.

Really? So we should just "half way" face it?

re: #41 Thanos

re: #38 pegcity

re: #35 Thanos

re: #28 Nevergiveup

re: #6 Sharmuta

There was too much blood in the vehicle, imo, for a mere skull fracture.

I am not so sure about that at all. Any skull laceration can result in an extensive of amount of blood lose. I saw the pictures and it is entirely possible that could be from a laceration.

I bled more when I got hit in the forehead with an axe, and there wasn't even a skull fracture.

who'd you piss off?

Nobody, I was sleeping in a tent and someone decided to pound the pegs in tighter and missed.

See... there are worse things than lighter fluid and charcoal you can put into the hands of middle school aged boy scouts. ;P

re: #195 Cattt

MY CAT would have shredded you for less than the avatar hehehe

re: #210 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Flickr. :)

re: #185 abolitionist

The identity of the bomber is known. See " Buda's Wagon: A brief history of the car bomb" by Mike Davis.

I think you will find that the Koran like any religious book expressly forbids the taking of innocent lives and the majority of Muslims in Pakistan or elsewhere condemn all acts of terrorism and see it as a scar on the face of Islam. They hate Bin-Liner more than we do because he has insulted their religion and say he is not a muslim because no muslim would go against the koranic teachings. The Koran itself is actually very straightforward,humanitarian. It's the dogmatic interpretation and utilisation by evil men that is the real issue. I checked what was being said in popular urban myths against an actual translation and i can truly say there was a big difference. But War is War so can we drop the big bombs yet ?

re: #212 Allah al Fubar

re: #179 natemannq

We're just not ready to face islam head on.

That's the problem, not only in the USA of course, the EU is doing a far worse job in it's politic of appeasement vs islam

re: #217 Sharmuta

Are you aware of the mass exodus of Christians from Iraq?

Crucifixions in Basra?

A Christian baby being boiled, laid on a bed of rice, and placed at the doorstep of its parents?

As for the church opening.. Good news but caused by our troops asserting themselves in that one instance. I'd love to see the Iraqi government do it but highly unlikely.

re: #213 so.cal.swede

re: #210 pre-Boomer Marine brat

At least some of us are focusing on the positive side of this thread :-)

Where are those CRABCAKES!

re: #160 Jack Reacher

The shawl jumping looks damning, but the video doesn't make plain how low that shawl is hanging at the moment. Could it have lifted on one side when guards inside the car grabbed her from the other side and pulled? Looks like the JFK conspiracy theory books will have to share some shelf space.

Coulda' been a gentle breeze wafting gently by.

abolitionist, thanks, I never made or heard that connection before. I guess the msm at that time just went with the Lone Teamster Theory.

re: #185 abolitionist

Overview: At noon on September 16, 1920, a horse drawn buggy loaded with 100 pounds of dynamite and 500 pounds of cast- iron slugs exploded across the street from the J.P. Morgan bank headquarters in downtown Manhattan, New York. The explosion blew out windows for blocks around, killed 30 immediately, injured hundreds of others and completely destroyed the interior of the Morgan building.. Those responsible were never found, but evidence—in the form of a warning note received at a nearby office building—suggested anarchists.

Note: WW1 ended the centuries-old Turkish Empire/caliphate.

re: #215 konservo

You're being dumb! Of course it's our fault. This is exactly what I tell my wife: You better stop that crying or i'm going to hurt the other side of my hand too, you brought this on yourself, woman!

/does not beat women.

re: #165 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #152 natemannq

re: #138 trailortrash

I think you're missing something... I had the good fortune of speaking with former Palestinian terrorist Walid Shoebat on December 16th

He breaks muslims down into two camps.

1.) Liberal muslims (not really that religious)
2.) Devout muslims (dangerous)

Have a listen to him and decide for yourself.

Nope. Can't reduce it.

You said "Islam" was the problem, not merely a part of Islam.

If you read the quran, sunnah, hadith, you will see that a religion founded by a land pirate, that glorifies murder in the 1st degree and gaining "booty" IS the problem. If, by some miracle, some of the true believers choose to overlook some of the dogma of islam, then we can talk.

re: #227 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #213 so.cal.swede

re: #210 pre-Boomer Marine brat

At least some of us are focusing on the positive side of this thread :-)

Where are those CRABCAKES!

i had them, they are "gone" now ;)

re: #215 konservo

My point is that until we decide to identify the enemy, we will not win...

Mr. Bush should have used the term "islamo-facism" more than once but he didn't because CAIR made him back down..

Do you espouse backing down to CAIR?

re: #222 Cattt

re: #210 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Flickr. :)

Oh! You cheated! You should have done it with you OWN cat! Coward!

(-:

re: #224 mdaspinall

There are quite a few AK-47 wielding thugs in Gaza, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia who disagree.

I'm surprised that more people aren't investigating Nawaz Sharif's involvement in this incident. Considering that he has close ties to both Islamists (having been responsible for incorporating Sharia law into the legal system) and personal enemies of the Bhutto political family, and now gets to stand up as a "leading opposition figure" (protection he needs as, technically, he's still wanted on terrorism charges), he had both motive and opportunity. I for one certainly don't buy his crocodile tears for Benazir's memory.

re: #231 Carolyn

I believe that's what I said.. You didn't hear the interview then?

re: #213 so.cal.swede

Bugger Islam; let's talk about rugby!

re: #215 konservo

I can't believe people on this thread are blaming United States government officials for radical Islamic violence. The US is, in fact, a victim of radical Islam and now that we are taking action throughout the world it is somehow our foreign policy that is to blame. That's disgraceful thinking, Afghanistan was ignored and became a terrorist breeding ground. blame the U.S. for not stopping it sooner. Islamists kill a Pakistani politician, blame the U.S. for encouraging the world governments to crack down on terrorists.

You can thank Mister Clinton for his ineffectual leadership and focus on the dot com industry and its financial luster that lead to the dot com boom and subesquent crash, and to what I believe is now the housing crash.. it just took ten years. The Clintons created a fallacy (or phallusy)

He/They left Bush with a pile of shit from the middle East, trampled bed sheets and sperm stained dresses and balloons and confetti on top of our Founding Fathers (Lincoln's) bed. They ignored the threats of Al Queda, they ignored the interest rates, and they created an 'image' of an internet boom...

/Vote for Billary

re: #203 Quasars

re: #65 maven

Charles, A few other Lizaroids seem to agree with my view that the video doesn't strongly show she was shot. All the hair and scarf movement could have been due to her rapid reaction in ducking.

I agree with this. I saw no impact. Nothing like Kennedy being shot. Yet another video is required.

An essential point is that the suicide bomber shows it must have been Islamic fundamentalists. Nobody would blow himself up for the Musharraf government. QED.

Is there any possibility the explosives could have been set off by remote control? I.e., without the knowledge of the apparent suicide bomber?

"Here, wear this special protective coat. And make sure you stay close to that other guy with the gun."

Oh boy, the Vikings just came back to tie the game.

/and the Cowasses are laying down for Washington

re: #219 natemannq

Well, I say face it head on. So does Bush.

The MSM isn't ready. Yet.

re: #212 Allah al Fubar

re: #179 natemannq

Here is what "Mister" Bush has done.. Pardon me, if I call him the President of the United States of America:

1. He witnessed our country under attack, while reading at a school just north of me in a sleepy little town called Sarasota, Florida.

2. He conducted himself with great dignity and pride as he saw the Pentagon attacked.

3. He assembled a staff of leaders who did their best in a time of absolute torment.

4. He addressed this Nation with words that he never took back. Look up his post 9-11 speech and point out exactly what words he said that he did not carry out and act upon.

5. He helped to keep this Nation together after what was called the worst attack since Pearl Harbor.

6. He has stood by every word that he said. He says what he means, and he means what he says. See: 9/12 speech.

7. Despite the polls, and despite his own personal reputation, he has effectuated every single Act that he said he would enact, much to the chagrin of the likes of john effin kerry, rosie o'donnell and susan sarandon.

8. Bush may go down in flames from a political standpoint, but he will go down in History as a foreward thinking man who did what he felt best for his Country. He knows what faces us.

We're just not ready to face islam head on.

that's exactly right. but we're moving in that direction based on the behavior or those who follow islam. some one posted once, islam will be tamed or it will be gone. it's up to them. so relax, natemannq, we know what's going on.

re: #226 natemannq

i think we should demand that the assyrian and caldean people be brought to America the assyrian's i know are good americans

SAVE THE ASSYRIANS NOW.

re: #224 mdaspinall

Research the concept of "abrogation" as used in Quranic scholarship. IMHO, there was something very fishy going on. Perhaps certain Arabs weren't happy with the earliest verses of the Quran, which are QUITE different from the hellfire-and-brimstone later ones.

re: #215 konservo

I don't know if some of us are "blaming"per say.I think we need to look at the past,and discover where misteps may have taken place.places where political expedience took presidence over what was right for the future.(in the hopes the bill would not come due)Where americans were killed for the crime of being american citizens,and the govt.treated it as a criminal act akin to being mugged.the war was declared against us a long time ago,sadly it took the events of 9-11 to get us to finally hear and understand the declaration.

re: #212 Allah al Fubar

Thanks for your reasoned argument and organized list.

Here's his Sept 20 the speech:

Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Did he stand by these words?

re: #239 Allah al Fubar
not to mention WJC gutted the military.

re: #185 abolitionist

Around that time peroid, one of the questions on your immigration form (my great-grandfather came from Italy) was "are you an anarchist?" If only we had a question like that now.

re: #238 threecoloursblue

re: #213 so.cal.swede

Bugger Islam; let's talk about rugby!

Will Dallaglio retire? THE WORLD WANTS TO KNOW!