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Giuliani Wants a 'Surge' in Afghanistan

Wed, Jan 2, 2008 at 5:22:52 pm PST

Some interesting foreign policy ideas from Rudy Giuliani today, definitely not in the isolationist vein: Giuliani Will Back a ‘Surge’ in Afghanistan.

A closer focus on the way terror gangs use the internet is very welcome; the ability of the jihadists to exploit the internet to plan, share information, and even train via video, is one of our most under-recognized threats.

WASHINGTON — Mayor Giuliani will announce a new four-point war strategy in New Hampshire today, an effort to refocus a primary campaign season for Republicans that has centered in recent weeks less on foreign affairs and more on immigration and domestic issues.

Specifically, Mr. Giuliani will call for a new military surge in Afghanistan, a change in the way America’s spies are promoted so that officers are rewarded for finding actionable intelligence and not just the number of agents they recruit, and a new war on Al Qaeda’s intricate network of Web sites, sites used both to communicate with its agents in the field and to recruit new jihadis.

He’s the anti-Ron Paul.

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208 comments

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1 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:24:10pm

Let's give a surge to Giuliani.

2 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:25:04pm
Giuliani Wants a 'Surge' in Afghanistan

And let's keep the momentum going and have the troops just keep rolling into Iran after the mop up the Taliban.

3 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:25:25pm
a new war on Al Qaeda’s intricate network of Web sites, sites used both to communicate with its agents in the field and to recruit new jihadis.

About time.

4 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:25:37pm

the mop up = they mop up

5 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:26:05pm
6 VegasRick  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:26:39pm

re: #1 zombie

Let's give a surge to Giuliani.

That works for me! I was leaning towards Romney but Rudy just got 50 pluses in my book.

7 Alas  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:26:42pm

Rudy is right.

8 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:26:44pm
He’s the anti-Ron Paul.

Suggestion for new bumper sticker:

Rudy Giuliani
The anti-Ron Paul

9 jcm  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:26:59pm

SURGE!
Afganistan, then Indonesia, Syria, Iran and on to Saudi Arabia YYYEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!

*sorry couldn't help myself*

10 Kirly  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:27:55pm
Specifically, Mr. Giuliani will call for a new military surge in Afghanistan, a change in the way America’s spies are promoted so that officers are rewarded for finding actionable intelligence and not just the number of agents they recruit, and a new war on Al Qaeda’s intricate network of Web sites, sites used both to communicate with its agents in the field and to recruit new jihadis.

that sounds great! take down the websites! we have the technology. after all, we have the guy who invented the internet.

who the hell ever thought it was a good idea to promote spies based on the number of agents they recruit? that's just stupid! they should be promoted based on their productivity which means actionable intelligence! geesh! if a simple engineer like me can figure this out.....

11 gopninja  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:28:36pm

heh, its funny listening to these guys. Im glad he wont be placing relevantly in Iowa

12 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:28:46pm

Two of my students are so-called Ron Paul fans. Would a iizard please give me a bullet point list of why he's an idiot?

13 redbaron  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:29:29pm

Go Rudy! Now can we use Nancy and Harry as shields? Please!

14 Rodan[deleted]  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:29:47pm
15 VegasRick  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:30:04pm

re: #9 jcm

SURGE!
Afganistan, then Indonesia, Syria, Iran and on to Saudi Arabia YYYEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!

*sorry couldn't help myself*

Took a minute but I finally got it!
That had to be one of the funniest speeches in history.

16 jcm  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:30:49pm

re: #12 goddessoftheclassroom

Two of my students are so-called Ron Paul fans. Would a iizard please give me a bullet point list of why he's an idiot?

He would not take military action until after an attack.

17 Shug  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:31:00pm

Win Rudy Win

18 mean Gene  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:31:03pm

Venezuela has a higher murder rate than Iraq.
100 per 100,000 Venezuela.
56.49 per 100,000 Iraq.
Compton, CA - 2005; 67.1

19 Kirly  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:31:33pm

re: #12 goddessoftheclassroom

close ties to racists.
stupid isolationist policies would make us less safe since it would be interpreted as weakness by the jihadis.

20 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:31:53pm
21 irongrampa  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:32:32pm

Fine for rudy, but my vote will still go to Fred.

22 Kirly  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:32:47pm

re: #18 mean Gene

Venezuela has a higher murder rate than Iraq.
100 per 100,000 Venezuela.
56.49 per 100,000 Iraq.
Compton, CA - 2005; 67.1

holy crap! so does compton! i grew up right next door.

23 snopercod  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:33:14pm

I'll probably regret asking this, but why is Duncan Hunter never mentioned? He's probably more of a hawk on national defense than Rudy.

24 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:34:07pm

re: #12 goddessoftheclassroom

Two of my students are so-called Ron Paul fans. Would a iizard please give me a bullet point list of why he's an idiot?

1. Ron Paul is an idiot.

There. That's all they need to know.

25 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:35:03pm

Cinnamon Stillwell is currently on Michael Savage!

26 Alouette  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:35:25pm

re: #12 goddessoftheclassroom

Two of my students are so-called Ron Paul fans. Would a iizard please give me a bullet point list of why he's an idiot?

He is a nazi magnet.

27 itellu3times  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:35:38pm

JDAM is my kind of surge.

28 USASupport  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:35:42pm

Sorry, I support Romney. Which states is Rudy leading in again?

29 Orbit Rain  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:36:31pm

...how about a surge where our dear friends detain bloggers?...

30 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:36:35pm

re: #28 USASupport

Sorry, I support Romney. Which states is Rudy leading in again?

The state of the nation overall.

31 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:36:56pm

Giuliani Wants NEEDS a 'Surge' in Afghanistan IOWA AND NEW HAMPSHIRE

There ,, fixed it for ya, Rudy

32 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:37:43pm

re: #21 irongrampa

Fine for rudy, but my vote will still go to Fred.

You mean in the primaries. In the general election I can only hope you'll vote for Giuliani over Hillary!

33 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:37:51pm

If Pakistan can't keep it together, a surge in Afghanistan may prove just the staging area for the march south.

34 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:38:16pm
35 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:38:20pm

re: #28 USASupport

Sorry, I support Romney. Which states is Rudy leading in again?

lest you not forget who won for the dems in Iowa and I think NH last time!
HOWARD DEAN !
(it's only been 33% of the time that the winner in Iowa takes the nomination)

36 zombie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:38:35pm

re: #31 sattv4u2

Giuliani Wants NEEDS a 'Surge' in Afghanistan IOWA AND NEW HAMPSHIRE

There ,, fixed it for ya, Rudy

He's not worrying about these too-early primaries. He'll get all the delegates he needs on Super Tuesday and subsequently.

37 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:39:47pm

re: #36 zombie

yes ,,,, see my #35 response to USASupport

38 nyc redneck  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:40:51pm

rudy would have stopped the car burnings in nyc before they started.

39 mean Gene  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:40:54pm

re: #22 Kirly

re: #18 mean Gene

Venezuela has a higher murder rate than Iraq.
100 per 100,000 Venezuela.
56.49 per 100,000 Iraq.
Compton, CA - 2005; 67.1

holy crap! so does compton! i grew up right next door.

Lynwood?
Me too!

40 nyc redneck  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:41:40pm

the thugs know this,

41 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:42:43pm

He's the anti-Ron. I have to say that RP may hurt the GOP more than I thought. I've seen people who are sane and rational jump on the RP wagon. Granted they are the minority since the majority of RP fans are insane, but every little bit can hurt.

I could be wrong, but I think the nomination is Rudy's to lose.

42 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:43:20pm

re: #40 nyc redneck

the thugs youths know this,

fixed it in case you wrote for the MSM

43 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:43:28pm

RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!

44 Kirly  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:44:07pm

re: #39 mean Gene

Lynwood?
Me too!

different direction.

45 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:44:17pm

re: #26 Alouette

re: #12 goddessoftheclassroom


Two of my students are so-called Ron Paul fans. Would a iizard please give me a bullet point list of why he's an idiot?

He is a nazi magnet.

And an Islamofacist magnet.

46 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:44:22pm

re: #41 Hard Right

I think we (LGF) spend way too much time discussing Ron Paul. At best, he's a novelty act. At worst, he'll be this years Ross Perot although he has sworn he will no try a 3rd party run. Even if he did, it would be a zero sum game as he would siphon off as many democrats from Hellary, Obama, and/or Edwards in the general because of his "get them out now" war stance as he would republicans for his smaller government promises

47 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:44:55pm

re: #45 Hard Right

re: #26 Alouette


re: #12 goddessoftheclassroom

Two of my students are so-called Ron Paul fans. Would a iizard please give me a bullet point list of why he's an idiot?

He is a nazi magnet.

And an Islamofacist magnet.

And an isolationist

48 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:44:56pm

re: #30 zombie

zombie -

I TOO Prefer Romney - AND - if Rudy is calling for a "Surge" in Afghanistan - I GROK and understand the message on a BUNCH of Levels.
AND - Generally I AGREE. That is ALL for now.

-S-

49 Jemison Thorsby  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:47:11pm

"He's the anti-Ron Paul."

Well, yes. Even us Paul supporters can agree with you on that about Giuliani. Da Mayor never met a problem that couldn't be solved with more government.

50 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:47:15pm

My surge would hit Iran, Pakistan and Saudi

51 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:47:16pm

re: #46 sattv4u2

re: #41 Hard Right

I think we (LGF) spend way too much time discussing Ron Paul. At best, he's a novelty act. At worst, he'll be this years Ross Perot although he has sworn he will no try a 3rd party run. Even if he did, it would be a zero sum game as he would siphon off as many democrats from Hellary, Obama, and/or Edwards in the general because of his "get them out now" war stance as he would republicans for his smaller government promises

I agree to a point, but is it not our "mission" to try to bring light to those in darkness? Liberals and RP fans definitely are in the dark and we don't need others to be sucked into their sewers.

52 Geepers  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:48:31pm
a new war on Al Qaeda’s intricate network of Web sites, sites used both to communicate with its agents in the field and to recruit new jihadis.

What a novel idea.

Amazing nobody's ever thought of that before.

The New Cyber General

During a media conference on November 2, 2007, Secretary of the Air Force Michael W. Wynne said the 8th Air Force would become the new Air Force Cyber Command. Now this statement has become reality. A three-star general, Lt. Gen. Robert Elder Jr. is the commander and will lead the Air Force's (AFCYBER) Cyber Command. AFCYBER will have over 20,000 personnel, and the Air Force is recruiting officers and airmen from all over for careers in Cyber War. Thousands of existing air force electronic warfare specialists will be assigned, or offered, jobs in AFCYBER. This will include units operating in the full spectrum of electronics and the electromagnetic spectrum to store, modify, and exchange data via networked systems and associated physical infrastructures.

The U.S. Air Force is currently training 40,000 Cyber Warriors that make up this unique force. The cyber war training program will take from six to 15 months to complete. The first Undergraduate Network Warfare Training Class graduated Dec. 7, 2007. They are representing the Air Force's expansion into the lead role in cyberspace threat management. It is estimated that it will take over seven years to get the full complement of staff trained. The training coupled with experience will combine to give them what they need to perform their critical mission. Not all of the people trained as Cyber Warriors will be in the 8th Air Force. Many will be assigned throughout the Air Force to take care of Cyber War needs of their units. We are developing a new breed of soldier- cyber soldiers are ones who engage in cyber conflicts, wars, or espionage. They are armed with hackers' skill and knowledge and newly developed cyber weapons and stand ready to defend our nation against cyber threats.

53 Kepler Sings  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:48:55pm

Something to remember about Iowa and New Hampshire, and I lived in Iowa for some years so I know what that state is like and the type of people that go to these early caucuses.

Both of these states have small populations, and I know Iowa Universities have a lot more prominence than say a University in Florida or New York would in their respective state. In fact the Univ sports teams are a fill-in for professional sports teams, as Iowa has no Pro Sports teams. The people involved tend to be liberal types, even the GOP side. Remember Iowa is not the picture of the independent farmer standing tall, but of government subsidized farming, they are huge into drinking from the government tit. I suspect New Hampshire is about the same as Iowa in mindset and world view.

I don't know how they managed to set the tone for primaries or determine anything, the parties ought to ignore them and set the big population states up for the first primaries, or just do it all at the same time, why should a bunch of fairly liberal voters in unimportant states have so much influence?

54 Quodlibetarian  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:49:07pm

The anti-Ron Paul, but about as likely to get the Republican nomination. Giuliani's campaign managers have really screwed him over.

55 opinionated  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:50:06pm

It's ironic.

If everyman(woman) realized the Islamic threat, Giuliani would win by a rout.

Because the threat is largely ignored, Giuliani will likely be dismissed, which will result in exactly the events which will make everyone realize the threat.

And with Giuliani dismissed, the elected President may not be up to the challenge.

NYC dismissed Giuliani at first. We got Dinkins. We got Sharpton running roughshod over the city. We got riots in Crown Heights.

Only then did we turn to Giuliani- who saved us...and more.

So why were we not smart enough the first time he ran? Why did we have to experience Dinkins to appreciate Giuliani?

What will America have to experience- again- to appreciate Giuliani?

56 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:50:28pm

re: #51 Hard Right

We can try, but the Paulians that I have encountered seem to be adverse to discussing the relative merits/ negatives about Dr. Paul.

It's as if they beleive that they weren't "sucked" in, but like gravity, it's inevitable.

57 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:53:17pm
58 Allah al Fubar  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:53:48pm

Cause sometimes, we should never forget.

Never forget. Hard to watch

Stop Dar fur Genocide

Stop Moslem Honor Killings

Decide: Who is best to defeat this Menace called Islam?

These are some really tough video's that might be deleted. If they are, I understand. The best people to fight Nazism and Islam ism are the very people who have experienced it first hand.

Guliani 2008

59 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:55:42pm

re: #56 sattv4u2

re: #51 Hard Right

We can try, but the Paulians that I have encountered seem to be adverse to discussing the relative merits/ negatives about Dr. Paul.

It's as if they beleive that they weren't "sucked" in, but like gravity, it's inevitable.

I guess we need to try and save those who don't know better.
I also see we've had more Ronulans jump on to spew their mental illness.

60 Render  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:56:32pm

ummm...

That's not technically possible. A surge into Afghanistan, that is.

The valid reasons for the low troop numbers assigned to the Afghan theater remains as valid today as it has throughout all of the anti-war groups complaints about those troop numbers.

Geography and logistics. Look at a map and count up the number of long range and charter transport aircraft available to the US military.

20,000 to 30,000 is the maximum number of troops that can be re-supplied in the region.

===

Unless we're talking about a three to five division invasion of Pakistan and/or Iran as part of the surge operation...

===

However, it is possible to manufacture a mini-surge of sorts from forces already in place in Afghanistan. Just by changing the restrictive, defensive Rules of Engagement that many of the NATO and EU units are currently operating under in the theater.

Let them do what they do best. Hunt the enemy. Kill the enemy.

CHECK
PLEASE,
R

61 VegasRick  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:56:42pm

re: #53 Kepler Sings

Something to remember about Iowa and New Hampshire, and I lived in Iowa for some years so I know what that state is like and the type of people that go to these early caucuses.

Both of these states have small populations, and I know Iowa Universities have a lot more prominence than say a University in Florida or New York would in their respective state. In fact the Univ sports teams are a fill-in for professional sports teams, as Iowa has no Pro Sports teams. The people involved tend to be liberal types, even the GOP side. Remember Iowa is not the picture of the independent farmer standing tall, but of government subsidized farming, they are huge into drinking from the government tit. I suspect New Hampshire is about the same as Iowa in mindset and world view.

I don't know how they managed to set the tone for primaries or determine anything, the parties ought to ignore them and set the big population states up for the first primaries, or just do it all at the same time, why should a bunch of fairly liberal voters in unimportant states have so much influence?


They don't. They just think they do. Whenever my friends and I go out to a strip club we all take on different persona's. I like to tell the gals that I am a farmer from Kiakakiwa, Iowa just to see their faces and blank stares and hear them say Where? BTW I don't look like a farmer from Kiakakiwa, Iowa (IMHO) Oh and a couple of times a night my guys and I will shout out "Go Hawkeyes!"

62 rawmuse  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:59:14pm

re: #8 zombie

He’s the anti-Ron Paul.

Suggestion for new bumper sticker:

Rudy Giuliani
The anti-Ron Paul

Ha! Love it! May I steal it?

63 RubyTuesday  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:59:22pm

I echo snopercod's question at #23 - what is the Lizards' take on Duncan Hunter's slide into obscurity?

64 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:00:58pm

re: #59 Hard Right
Here's the 2nd part of what we must do. You can see the genesis of the problem upthread, denouncing Romney, Guiliani, McCain, Huckabee, or whomever. We conservatives must stop "eating our young". What I mean by that is, all the nominal republican candidates have warts.
You're going to tell me, that you would NOT vote for one of those over the Dem as a 'protest" because the republican isn’t 100% who you want him to be?
So,,,,,, don't vote for the guy that is 75% of what you want, and get the guy/ gal that is 100% what you DON"T want.

65 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:03:30pm

I would tend to favor massive counterinsurgency operations as the method of fighting the war against radical Islam as well. It has a superb practical record and our armed forces seem particularly skilled and experienced in these operations. We are seeing right now how effective this method is in rooting jihadists out from a population. General Petraeus' surge of 2007 in Iraq has achieved a series of undeniable victories in extremely problematic areas, culminating in a fairly pacified Baghdad. No one can really deny this -- even Harry Reid.

However, it would appear that Afghanistan itself in not the same position Iraq was in 2006. It is, rather, the cross-border situation with Pakistan, in which al-Qaeda and the Taliban forces are protected and supplied by the locals in Waziristan. Now, official military operations into Pakistan are made highly difficult by the obvious weakness and precarious status of the Musharref regime -- effectively a military dictatorship, which means that an invasion onto their soil may be viewed by this same military as a threat to their rule. VDH, for example, has said it would be most difficult to wage open warfare into this area for a number of reasons. We also suspect that Musharref has made deals with the tribal leaders of this region to leave them autonomous if they do not wage insurgency. This is why our current policy has been to use limited Nato and Army special forces to move in and out of Pakistan unofficially and to try to kill the remaining Taliban without risking exposure to more of our soldiers' lives in an all-out occupation. Sounds like a fairly reasonable plan, given the massive operation happening at the same time in Iraq and given the state of the Musharref dictatorship -- our only "ally" in this country which of course has nukes.

Thus, there are a number of complex, difficult questions that would have to be thought through and answered before supporting such a proposal- a surge in Afghanistan. Such as: would this surge deal directly with Waziristian and how would we approach the situation with Musharef without unintentionally turning the country and the nukes over to the jihadists? Would this mean a massive increase in the size of our armed forces? That would seem to be a necessity anyway, but there are many practical issues that go along with that, specifically the budget increases and we'd have to look realistically at the invoice for such an agenda.

66 Allah al Fubar  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:03:41pm

Again, before I sign off.. I am sorry that the videos are hard to watch. But they are revealing of the threat that we all face today. New New Nazi's. Except now, they are cloaked beneath the protection of a 'religion', and they are not called Nazi's.

67 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:06:51pm

re: #11 gopninja

Nice try.

re: #46 sattv4u2

Perot didn't have quite the 'following' that L. Ron Paul has. I think it's important to shine the light on these cockroaches. How different history might have been if the world focused a brighter spotlight on the third reich before it built momentum.

68 j.row.  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:08:10pm

re: #21 irongrampa

Fine for rudy, but my vote will still go to Fred.

I'm with ya Grampa !

69 maddogg  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:09:26pm

So, has Rudy landed that NRA endorsement yet?

70 RyJ Maduro  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:09:54pm

I've been leaning very heavily towards Rudy as of late, but this more or less seals the deal for me.

71 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:10:53pm

re: #63 RubyTuesday

I echo snopercod's question at #23 - what is the Lizards' take on Duncan Hunter's slide into obscurity?

Um, nothing against the guy... but when was Duncan Hunter ever out of obscurity?

72 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:11:19pm

re: #67 Slumbering Behemoth

Perot was an entirely different species (alien visual pun intended) altogether. Most of his support came from the moderate to far right, out flanking Bush 1 on that front. Ross took only an extremely small percentage of Dem and independent voters from Clinton

As I stated in #46, Ru Paul would siphon off as many democrats from Hellary, Obama, and/or Edwards in the general because of his "get them out now" war stance as he would republicans for his smaller government promises

73 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:13:07pm

re: #64 sattv4u2

re: #59 Hard Right
Here's the 2nd part of what we must do. You can see the genesis of the problem upthread, denouncing Romney, Guiliani, McCain, Huckabee, or whomever. We conservatives must stop "eating our young". What I mean by that is, all the nominal republican candidates have warts.
You're going to tell me, that you would NOT vote for one of those over the Dem as a 'protest" because the republican isn’t 100% who you want him to be?
So,,,,,, don't vote for the guy that is 75% of what you want, and get the guy/ gal that is 100% what you DON"T want.

I'm hoping that once the candidate is chosen we can get past our differences and protect the country from the dems. While I'm torn between Romney and Rudy, I would vote for Reps other than them.

I recall a guy on another forum who refused to vote because the GOP candidates weren't exactly what what he wanted. He raised the flag of veterans who had died for his right not to vote for those that did not share his values. Not that it helped, I pointed out that those men died to protect and preserve America and letting Hillary or Obama win would be the beginning of the end of this country if not the end.

74 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:14:05pm

re: #67 Slumbering Behemoth
Perot didn't have quite the 'following' that L. Ron Paul has.

I do hope you're kidding

Perot got just under 19% of the NATIONAL vote in the 92 election !

75 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:17:10pm
"I think the problem in Pakistan and the assassination of Benazir Bhutto has raised a lot of concern and questions," the Giuliani campaign's senior foreign policy adviser, Charles Hill, said in an interview yesterday.

Well, they are definately mentioning Pakistan.

LOL, sounds like there's some healthy aggression and total interventionism (which I support) against the jihadists among Giuliani's group of military advisors; I'd just like to see some thought-out commentaries on exactly what we are talking about before endorsing a new surge.

76 snowcrash  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:17:27pm

re: #23 snopercod
Zygazint posted a spin-off earlier that had a comparison table of the candidates on asst. issues. Although I had to increase the size to like 125% to read it, page 3 had summary of ratings on Hunter. IMO this man has it all!

77 docremulac  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:17:34pm

Good for Rudy.

I would do a clean sweep of the Taliban in Afghanistan and tell Mushariff we'll "back him up" when they come swarming into Pakistan like frightened rats trying to get away. Work some deal where he can say it's his incompetent boob of a military doing all the work when it's actually our guys.

Might take some creativity but it would be worth it.

78 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:19:00pm

re: #72 sattv4u2

I cannot disagree with you there. It's the organization of supporters behind him that worries me most, I think we should certainly keep shining a light on them. The fact that they support Paul is mostly incidental to me.

The loons and 'white nationalists' have become far more cohesive under Paul, but I fear that cohesion won't disappear when Paul does.

79 NYexpat  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:19:22pm

I've said it before, and today I saw Kistrol on Fox(link at the top on the last RP/stormfront thread) agreeing with me- if Ronnie runs 3rd Party this fall, and I believe he can raise the support, He will siphon off the wingnut votes from both parties. Since he is the most solidly anti-war, anti military intervention candidate, he will gain 3 democrat votes for every republican 1.

80 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:19:32pm

re: #76 snowcrash

re: #23 snopercod
Zygazint posted a spin-off earlier that had a comparison table of the candidates on asst. issues. Although I had to increase the size to like 125% to read it, page 3 had summary of ratings on Hunter. IMO this man has it all!

That he does, except the $$$$$$$$$$$$ needed to make his case to the public

81 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:20:36pm

re: #79 NYexpat

see my #46

82 NYexpat  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:21:11pm

re: #71 Dar ul Harb

re: #63 RubyTuesday

I echo snopercod's question at #23 - what is the Lizards' take on Duncan Hunter's slide into obscurity?

Um, nothing against the guy... but when was Duncan Hunter ever out of obscurity?

Duncan Who? I don't recall his name ever even being mentioned on any of the news stations.

83 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:21:14pm

re: #74 sattv4u2

re: #67 Slumbering Behemoth
Perot didn't have quite the 'following' that L. Ron Paul has.

I do hope you're kidding

Perot got just under 19% of the NATIONAL vote in the 92 election !

My bad, I meant to say that Perot did not have the kind of following that Paul has. My mistake for not being clearer.

84 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:21:27pm

re: #75 Yank in the EU

"I think the problem in Pakistan and the assassination of Benazir Bhutto has raised a lot of concern and questions," the Giuliani campaign's senior foreign policy adviser, Charles Hill, said in an interview yesterday.

Well, they are definately mentioning Pakistan.

LOL, sounds like there's some healthy aggression and total interventionism (which I support) against the jihadists among Giuliani's group of military advisors; I'd just like to see some thought-out commentaries on exactly what we are talking about before endorsing a new surge.

When I saw the list of those advisers my jaw dropped. Rudy has picked the crem de la creme of the terrorism fighters. That caused me to throw more support his way. He gets the WOT.

85 Kepler Sings  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:23:23pm

Vegas Rick 61

O, boy does that "Go Hawkeyes!" bring back memories. I was there when Hayden Fry was worshiped as a god.

So they took a Pollock and removed half his brain in an operation to save him from a brain tumor and they were concerned that he might not make it but were relieved when he woke up and said "Viva La France," they were assured he had only lost half his brain.

But then they had to operate on a Frenchman with the same kind of tumor and once again they all waited breathlessly for him to wake up and they were crestfallen when he uttered his first words, knowing that they had removed too much of his brain, because his first words were: "How about those Hawkeyes?"

86 NYexpat  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:24:04pm

re: #81 sattv4u2

re: #79 NYexpat

see my #46

That was kind of what I was responding to. my real point is that in the general he will do far more damage to the democrats.

87 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:26:06pm

re: #84 Hard Right

Yes, in my opinion Bill Kristol and Norman Podhoretz are among the best minds our country has on overall strategy in the war against radical Islam and simply in the area of general smarts. I have big problems with Giuliani on other places, but we have to hand it to him in regard to the people he's already chosen.

88 wanumba  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:28:43pm

The big difference between Rudy and ALL the other candidates Dem or GOP is that 9/11 happened over, then ON his head. To all the others it's theoretical.
They didn't know the number of people Giuliani knew personally who died, and they didn't have to hold a city together, amidst orderly evacuations, rescue, medical services stressed beyond limits, fire department losses, police losses, with a staff of people whose spouses or brothers or sisters or fathers or mothers had died before their eyes. All this transpired without warning - literally counted in minutes from normal to hell.

Until people go through a catastrophe like that, it cannot be fully understood how it was to succeed in being functional and effective in the midst of horror and loss. Under his leadership, everyone in New York set aside their petty needs and worked for the common good. Then they went to the funerals to mourn.

Cannot state in words to convey how well New York was run during those crucial ten days; day one, day two and so forth. It wasn't by accident. It didn't "just happen." It was solid leadership, combined with executive know-how. It was also based on years of better management to get these services and people to focus on the emergency at hand when it came.

Does anyone believe for a second that New Orleans would have been the basket case it was under Nagin had Giuliani been mayor there at the time the hurricane appeared on the horizon? Would Giuliani have ignored the President of the United States' personal warning to get people out? Would Giuliani have ignored the Director of the National Hurricane Center the way Nagin did? Would Giuliani not have used the school busses to get out those predicted 200,000 people who were estimated in advance to need transport? Would Giuliani have brushed off AMTRAK's offer to fill 250 seats for a free ride out on the trains they were moving to higher ground?
Dang! Giuliani would not have needed ANYONE to tell him what to do. He would have ordered evacuations and used all available resources to move people out of the way. His police force wouldn't have been full of hacks - a product of years of mismangement - not just happenstance.

Why shouldn't Giuliani focus on the War? It isn't over, just tactics shifting. If we pull out of anywhere, Al Qaeda moves back in, it's sources of funding on open tap again.

For example, no one wonder what the effects on East Africa will be if bleeding Kenya does an Ivory Coast or worse, a Rwanda? Kenya relies on tourism for money, it's not like oil which can be still pumped and sold during turmoil. Thousands and thousands of people will be thrown out of work if tourism collapses. Which are Kenya's neighbors? Somalia, Sudan, for starters. Yeh, THAT Somali and THAT Sudan. Where have been the most horrific run of terrorist attacks in that region? Kenya. Remember the double US Embassy attack? How about the bombing of the Mombasa hotel? Kenya has paid in blood for the support it has given Israel. Terrorists hide amongst its Muslim population.

Now, the Luo population (along the western half of Kenya) has 40 years of frustrated political desires. They are furious at this electoral loss - which was either handled sloppily at best or simply stolen from them. (These are Baraka Obama's father's people, BTW. ) This is a very dangeous national situation that will have international implications on the War against Islamofascism if not resolved in a fair manner, and quickly.

Giuliani could be curled up in a corner, an emotional wreck - there are more than a number of 9/11 survivors who've been reduced to that - but no, he's looking out with the attititude, "Never Again." Good for him. He's a realist.

89 NYexpat  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:31:38pm

re: #87 Yank in the EU

re: #84 Hard Right

Yes, in my opinion Bill Kristol and Norman Podhoretz are among the best minds our country has on overall strategy in the war against radical Islam and simply in the area of general smarts. I have big problems with Giuliani on other places, but we have to hand it to him in regard to the people he's already chosen.

Yes, Rudy gets the war on terror, and I agree that I'm not so impressed with some of his domestic record. The thing is that none of this year's front runners impress me with all their positions. I the more I look, though, the more I like Rudy.

90 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:31:51pm

Charles Hill also seems to be an interesting fellow.

I may look into some of his other works about the war on radical Islam and foreign policy. See what's what.

91 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:32:19pm

re: #86 NYexpat

re: #81 sattv4u2


re: #79 NYexpat

see my #46


That was kind of what I was responding to. my real point is that in the general he will do far more damage to the democrats.

If whoever the DEM is runs an anti-war/ bring them home now story line, Paul won't hurt them too much. If the REPUB runs a straight conservative, small gov/ cut taxes stance, he won't take much from there. If either strays, he'll mop up the fringes.
He has stated that he will NOT run as a 3rd party though. His out there will be "I'm just doing this (3rd party)because the 'people' want me too"

92 yochanan  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:34:43pm

RUDY gets it. doubt the media will report it that way though.

the murder in Pakistan proved that WHORRILED PEAS is not going to happen in our lifetime.

93 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:35:07pm

re: #89 NYexpat

re: #87 Yank in the EU


re: #84 Hard Right

Yes, in my opinion Bill Kristol and Norman Podhoretz are among the best minds our country has on overall strategy in the war against radical Islam and simply in the area of general smarts. I have big problems with Giuliani on other places, but we have to hand it to him in regard to the people he's already chosen.


Yes, Rudy gets the war on terror, and I agree that I'm not so impressed with some of his domestic record. The thing is that none of this year's front runners impress me with all their positions. I the more I look, though, the more I like Rudy.

I'm worried about his stance on firearms and hope he's serious about leaving the 2nd alone.
Really, Rudy is more of a moderate liberal (remember those?) who wants to protect America from terrorists.

94 pat  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:36:40pm

Yeah, Rudy!

95 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:37:55pm

re: #93 Hard Right

Really, Rudy is more of a moderate liberal (remember those?)

John F. Kennedy
Zell Miller
Joe Lieberman

96 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:39:08pm

re: #95 sattv4u2

re: #93 Hard Right

Really, Rudy is more of a moderate liberal (remember those?)

John F. Kennedy
Zell Miller
Joe Lieberman

Wow. It's like you read my mind. Light reading, I know...

97 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:39:08pm

Romney fans, don't worry. He's getting all lawyered up, ready to take the filed of battle.

He's either gonna sue Bin Laden, arrest him, or try to get an injunction against any more terrorist attacks.

The lovely and talented John Edwards, on the other hand, has offered to defend Bin Laden against The Man, and has also offered to throw in a product liability action against the maker of Bin Laden's portable dialysis machine.

98 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:43:08pm

Giuliani can have 5 ex-wives, 10 current girlfriends, and 20 estranged children, for all I care. He might support abortion in his heart, and belive guins should be taken out of the hands of big city gangbangers.

As long as he gets the major issues of concern to the NATION right, or better that anybody else, he's the man.

99 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:44:28pm

Ok, here is a fascinating article about Charles Hill by David Brooks:

Learning To Think, And Live

Sounds like an amazing class -- and professor. Giuliani picked another winner, it seems.

100 Opinionated  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:46:38pm

re: #97 Maine's Michael

“If the answer for leading the country is someone that has a lot of foreign policy experience, we can just go down to the State Department and pick up any one of the tens of thousands of people who spent all their life in foreign policy,”

Mitt Romney

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

If a candidate ever gave a warning not to vote for him, Romney out did himself.

He believes the experts for a good foreign policy are career State Dept officials.

My humble non candidate opinion. The State Dept is the problem. And so is a President who would rely on them.

101 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:46:59pm

re: #97 Maine's Michael

hehehe ,, someone (troll) came in here the other night with the

" ,,,, oh yeah, where's Bin Laden" mantra

I told 'him" Bin Ladens been living in a damp cold cave, eating goat shit and drinking his own urine for sustanence, praying to Allah the sun comes out at least once a week so he can charge up his 1950's US Army Surplus Solar Powered Dialysis machine.
ME,,, I'm driving my 2007 SUV, having a top prime steak dinner at Outback with several Vodka Martinis'

he sure showed us, didn't he !

102 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:49:16pm

re: #98 Maine's Michael

Giuliani can have 5 ex-wives, 10 current girlfriends, and 20 estranged children, for all I care. He might support abortion in his heart, and belive guins should be taken out of the hands of big city gangbangers.

As long as he gets the major issues of concern to the NATION right, or better that anybody else, he's the man.

Ban abortion? Won't be able to be done. Ban guns? Don't think they'll be able to get that through either.

103 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:57:37pm

re: #100 Opinionated

I'm no particular fan of Romney (at least yet, have only really heard his religion speech), but he was saying the opposite of what you conclude. Namely, he was saying: if one's criteria for a good leader is simply foreign policy experience, then it would seem we could just take a career diplomat, which is self-evidently a bad idea. His point would, thus, support Giuliani's candidacy as well, which boasts of no concrete foreign policy experience in the sense of being a diplomat or talking to heads of state, etc. In other words, a career diplomat would be the exact opposite type of a person we want in a leadership role because the diplomat has learned how to compromise and deceive, seeing the world through this distorted, global community lens. Romney was in fact mocking the implication within their question.

104 Opinionated  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:04:36pm

re: #103 Yank in the EU

I know what he was trying to say, but where he wanted to give an example of foreign policy expertize, he used the State Dept as an example. The only time the State Dept should be used as an example is of serial bumblers and appeasers of our enemies.

He also admitted in the implication that his foreign affairs knowledge is limited. I know who Giuliani has picked as his foreign affairs team- top notch all the way. Who does Romney rely on?

105 shaker  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:04:52pm

Go Rudy!

106 JoggerNot  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:06:21pm

re: #88 wanumba
Thank You. We Forget the details I know I do sometimes. RUDY.. YEP!

107 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:07:43pm
108 Opinionated  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:14:53pm

We are not just electing a President for the United States, it seems we are also electing a leader for Israel.

Israel has sunk to such a low level that to call Israel a banana republic is insulting to banana republics and to just plain bananas.

Israel now begs for the right to defend itself.

J'lem seeks Bush okay for IDF free hand in W. Bank

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

The Government of Israel is shameless and despicable.

109 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:15:25pm

re: #104 Opinionated

I know what he was trying to say, but where he wanted to give an example of foreign policy expertize, he used the State Dept as an example. The only time the State Dept should be used as an example is of serial bumblers and appeasers of our enemies.

Then you admit to intentionally twisting his meaning. He wasn't giving an example of foreign policy expertise; rather, he was claiming that he would be better at foreign policy that some career diplomat, and he proved his point by referring to the obviously inept State Department. That was perfectly well done. There is no commendation to the State Department or to career diplomats whatsoever, except to say that they obviously have mere experience, which cannot be denied no matter how bad one thinks State is.

He also admitted in the implication that his foreign affairs knowledge is limited. I know who Giuliani has picked as his foreign affairs team- top notch all the way. Who does Romney rely on?

Not sure why you'd ask. I said to you that I don't support Romney; I have no idea who he's picked. On the contrary, I have just explicitly named three of Giuliani's team.

110 neocon hippie  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:20:00pm

re: #35 sattv4u2

re: #28 USASupport

Sorry, I support Romney. Which states is Rudy leading in again?

lest you not forget who won for the dems in Iowa and I think NH last time!
HOWARD DEAN !
(it's only been 33% of the time that the winner in Iowa takes the nomination)

None other than John Kerry won both those contests, after being considered an also-ran in the fall of 2003.

111 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:20:48pm

re: #108 Opinionated

Israel has sunk to such a low level that to call Israel a banana republic is insulting to banana republics and to just plain bananas.

Laughing thru my tears!

112 Opinionated  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:20:59pm

re: #109 Yank in the EU

I disagree, he was giving an example of foreign policy expertize. And he wasn't claiming that he would be better, he was claiming that a President must be a jack of all trades, so to speak, not necessarily foremost a foreign policy expert.

113 marjoriemoon  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:25:02pm

re: #60 Render

ummm...

That's not technically possible. A surge into Afghanistan, that is. ...

Even so, I find it refreshing that the man is technically minded. He is also in favor of installing sensors, cameras and the like on the border.

On immigration, he [Giuliani] wants to tighten the nation's borders, and ultimately its coastline, with a "technological fence." Sensing equipment and cameras would detect people entering the country improperly and Border Patrol agents would apprehend them.

114 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:30:50pm

re: #113 marjoriemoon

re: #60 Render


ummm...

That's not technically possible. A surge into Afghanistan, that is. ...


Even so, I find it refreshing that the man is technically minded. He is also in favor of installing sensors, cameras and the like on the border.

On immigration, he [Giuliani] wants to tighten the nation's borders, and ultimately its coastline, with a "technological fence." Sensing equipment and cameras would detect people entering the country improperly and Border Patrol agents would apprehend them.

I'm hoping that if elected he'll do the fence and sensors to catch anyone who makes it past. The sensors/cameras by themselves are crap (they break down a lot) and the agents usually never find the crosser. They are long gone by the time they get there.

115 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:32:51pm

re: #112 Opinionated

re: #109 Yank in the EU

I disagree, he was giving an example of foreign policy expertize. And he wasn't claiming that he would be better, he was claiming that a President must be a jack of all trades, so to speak, not necessarily foremost a foreign policy expert.

The exact words were: "...someone that has a lot of foreign policy experience..." The only grounds on which you can claim to know that he was talking about "expertise" is that you were somehow reading his mind. The point was entirely valid on all levels and would have been excellent had Giuliani or Ronald Reagan said it -- career diplomats do not made good leaders in foreign policy.

Thus, the whole point of Romney's response was that he should be the one making foreign policy decisions, not some career diplomatic schlub from State, an argument that necessarily depends on State not being good at leadership and foreign policy. So his mocking the question's assumption about experience, as you actually admitted to understanding, must mean the opposite of what you attribute to him.

116 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:33:20pm

er, make

117 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:33:30pm

re: #112 Opinionated

Just the fact that yu tow are having this debate means Romney failed to communicate his idea clearly.

Based on his prior statements about consulting with lawyers and his technocratic background, I would tend to agree with Opinionated, that he views the State Dept as a repository of foreign policy expertise, but that one needed to have judgment, additionally, to be president.

It is also worth looking into his dealings with China.

There is more to Romney than being a sharply dressed, nicely coiffed politico.

He may not be in thrall to the arabs, but I believe, based on some reading I've doen over the last little while, that he would be committed to the outsourcing of corporate America to China, and ensuring chinese stability, and ask the American taxpayer to foot the bill for the reconfiguration of the American workforce.

Keeping the arab world appeased and quiet will figure largely in a Romney presidency.

118 Maximu§  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:36:12pm

A surge in Afghanistan?

Thats only a partial solution...deep strikes into Pakistan are the answer, but the fact that Giuliani is addressing radical Islam shows his team is on the right track.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

119 wanumba  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:42:31pm

Anyone consider that Rudy, with his prosecutorial background would have a firm natural and professional preference for judges who have a clear sense of a strict reading of the law? Doesn't seem that a prosecuting attorney would go for judges who muse over all sorts of penumbras and so forth that help defendents dodge the letter of the law. So when he talks about what he'd choose in judges, he isn't pretending, he's serious.

Frankly, think Rudy is the Clintons' ("Bill and Hillary" as Yahoo! News had it the other day, until "Bill and Hillary" probably called them to not let the cat out of the bag so soon) worst nightmare. He started his career putting mafia types into prison ... knows how to do it, don't he?

Just day dreamin' ...

120 Yank in the EU  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:44:38pm

re: #117 Maine's Michael

I find this bizarre.

Regardless of what Romney's views are elsewhere, and I genuinely have little idea, this statement he made was quite on the mark. He explicitly referred to the absurd notion of placing quantity of experience as a standard of judging leadership in saying:

“If the answer for leading the country is someone that has a lot of foreign policy experience, we can just go down to the State Department and pick up any one of the tens of thousands of people who spent all their life in foreign policy,”

"A lot of foreign policy experience" does not equal "excelling in foreign policy" or "being a worthy decision-maker" or " I heart the State Department". This could not be more plain; it wasn't his bad wording, as you suggest. The point was even admitted that Romney's meaning to degrade State Department was well understood, but still somehow the point against him stands on the basis of this statement? Seems most strange, I must say. Oh well, whatever, I guess.

121 dog opus  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:48:49pm

Good for Rudy. He'll definitely get my vote if he gets the nomination.

122 jayzee  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:52:27pm

re: #46 sattv4u2

I think RP is evil and evil needs to be fought. I am most pissed by the GOP giving this facist legitimacy.

123 jayzee  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:55:33pm

I think Rudy is by far the best re national defense of all the candidates. For me, that's the primary concern and trumps much else.

124 FoolsMate  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:58:45pm

Rudy, Romney and Thompson are in a three-man race for my vote. I'm not satisfied with any of them, but today I'd pick Romney on a least evil basis. Thompson doesn't seem to want it or work hard to get it -- that approach isn't going to work in the general -- but I'd love for him to show me something. Rudy's great on national security and the war on terror but he's a bit of one-trick pony and that worries me. His support of Kerik shows questionable judgment. I find it hard to believe he'll appoint the right kind of judges after being a social liberal for so long. Romney's got an authenticity problem too on social issues but his flip flops are just a little more plausible. Romney's experience is more well rounded than Rudy. He ain't perfect but so far he's the best shot.

125 justiceforall  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:02:26pm

Maybe under his watch the army will focus on arresting street vendors and shooting unarmed minorities.

126 Orde  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:02:51pm

Are there any nonlemmings on this thread, besides me?

127 Opinionated  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:05:00pm

re: #124 FoolsMate

Rudy's great on national security and the war on terror but he's a bit of one-trick pony

Anyone who witnesses the remarkable transformation he performed in every facet of NYC's governance, may agree with you that he is a one trick pony.

That trick is to perform unbelievable positive political miracles.

128 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:08:17pm

re: #126 Orde

Are there any nonlemmings on this thread, besides me?

The Paul supporters that show up here tend to meltdown rather early and get blocked, so I'm guessing most folk in this thread actually are non-lemmings.

129 cookielady  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:12:24pm

I'm disappointed that only RINO's seem to be frontrunners. I like Duncan Hunter, myself, and I'm disappointed that more people aren't funding his campaign... since he's ignored by the media, he'd need more money than God to get noticed.

I'll vote for whatever Republican gets the nomination. Any of them except 'that other Ron,' that is.

130 AndeePanda  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:13:05pm

re: #124 FoolsMate

I like Fred because he doesn't seem to want it, just realizes that the US may need him. Being the president seems like a terrible job. What rational person would hunger for that much scary responsibility unless they had selfish ulterior motives.
That is all.

131 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:13:35pm

Rudy would not call islam a 'religion of peace' no sir.

I'd like him to call for a surge on that damn rock, focus of idolatry & portal of darkness in a veritable Tolkeinesque way.

132 cookielady  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:14:27pm

re: #131 Ojoe

Ojoe, I really like the way you think!

133 Dotcoman  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:15:30pm

re: #21 irongrampa

Fine for rudy, but my vote will still go to Fred.

Looking forward to that North American Union are you?

134 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:17:13pm

re: #107 song_and_dance_man

Great leaders for good are not, at their core, politicians.

Once in a while one of them shows up in the political arena, Churchill and Lincoln come to mind, also Elizabeth Tudor.

135 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:18:29pm

re: #132 cookielady

Thank you. We can dream/hope.

Now, I had better turn off the computer, it looks like a big storm is coming tonight on the west coast.

136 Dotcoman  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:18:45pm

re: #131 Ojoe

Rudy would not call islam a 'religion of peace' no sir.

I'd like him to call for a surge on that damn rock, focus of idolatry & portal of darkness in a veritable Tolkeinesque way.

Forge right on to Mecca then, huh?

137 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:20:10pm

re: #136 Dotcoman

Well that's the source, isin't it?

138 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:20:52pm

Good night all

139 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:23:42pm
140 Anthony (Los Angeles)  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:29:46pm
He’s the anti-Ron Paul.

Ru-dy! Ru-dy! RU-DY!

(Subtle, I'm not.)

141 FoolsMate  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:37:21pm

re: #130 AndeePanda

I like many things about Thompson, too. What I object to is his lackadaisical campaign schedule and low frequency of campaign events. All of the other major candidates have made many more campaign appearances than Thompson. That's a red-flag warning that Thompson might not have what it takes to grind out campaign stop after campaign stop after campaign stop, 17-18 hours a day from now Election Day.

142 Orde  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:47:40pm

re: #128 Slumbering Behemoth
This is pitiful.

143 jayzee  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:56:03pm

For an interesting perspective on Paulian thought, check this out. The thought process is so flawed and erroneous, I find it mind boggling:

"First let me say that I have no problem with Jews or Zionists. I have many Jewish friends. However, when a bunch of Zionist neocons like Kristol et al, who used ot be Democrats, hijack the Republican party so they can save Israel by forcing the U.S. to fight its wars, then I have a problem with that. Fox, Kristol and neocons are Iraeli Firsters - they are U.S. citizens who put the interest of Israel first.

Nothing against Jews, Israel or Zionists EXCEPT when certain people use their desire to protect Israel at the expense of the American people, who are dying in the Middle East because Kristol and his neocon liberal fascist buddies whispered into Bush's ear how Iraq had WMD's when they knew Iraq did not.

Another intesting point - Rupert Murdoch's mother is an Orthodox Jew, which makes him Jewish by birth.

I have no problem with the Jewish religion and the country of Israel. My problem is with Fox, Murdoch, Kristol and all their cronies putting the interests of Israel before the U.S. We should just leave the Middle East. Israel has 300 nuclear weapons and can handle herself. The Jews for Ron Paul organization understands this."

[Link: messages.finance.yahoo.com...]

We need an anti Ron Paul quick.

144 FoolsMate  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:56:47pm

re: #127 Opinionated

re: #124 FoolsMate

Rudy's great on national security and the war on terror but he's a bit of one-trick pony

Anyone who witnesses the remarkable transformation he performed in every facet of NYC's governance, may agree with you that he is a one trick pony.

That trick is to perform unbelievable positive political miracles.

His governance of New York City deserves merit, agreed, but I think he's frightfully liberal on social issues. Romney isn't perfect, but to me he's more credible on social issues.

145 Hard Right  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:02:36pm

re: #125 justiceforall

Maybe under his watch the army will focus on arresting street vendors and shooting unarmed minorities.

Troll, aisle five. Cleanup needed!

146 Maximu§  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:10:31pm

re: #125 justiceforall

Maybe under his watch the army will focus on arresting street vendors and shooting unarmed minorities.

Do your parents know your in here talking to adults? Go clean your room child and leave the big issues to big people.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

147 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:12:39pm

re: #142 Orde

re: #128 Slumbering Behemoth
This is pitiful.

See, I would've characterized the behavior Paulbots have exhibited here on LGF as contemptible, but pitiful works for me too.

148 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:14:56pm

re: #128 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #126 Orde

Are there any nonlemmings on this thread, besides me?

The Paul supporters that show up here tend to meltdown rather early and get blocked, so I'm guessing most folk in this thread actually are non-lemmings.

D'oh, looks like I spoke too soon. We found you a lemming, Orde.

re: #125 justiceforall

Maybe under his watch the army will focus on arresting street vendors and shooting unarmed minorities.

149 MODERATIONIST[deleted]  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:28:15pm
150 Orde  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:30:37pm

re: #148 Slumbering Behemoth
He's the nonlemming.

151 Quasars  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:33:20pm

re: #1 zombie

Let's give a surge to Giuliani.


I can't "surge" him because I've been with Rudy all along, and I'm sticking with him. As a non-religious conservative, I find Rudy is 100%. Uh, as long as he defends America's borders. And I hope the Dems don't have dirt on him. He'd be a great President.

152 realwest  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:52:27pm

re: #88 wanumba Truly excellent post.
The only two additions I would make are these: right after the Twin Towers were hit, and for days afterwards, those of us in NYC didn't know if anything else was coming - had just one shoe dropped on us?
Rudy was as ready as anyone could possibly be to LEAD that great City - and I loved your comparison to Mayor Naglin, who did have, after all, something like 48 hours notice and still left hundreds of school busses, empty, standing more than hubcap deep in the flood water when they were most needed.
The second thing I'd like to add is that the GWot - to Rudy - really is sorta personal. And I don't say that just because he got hit and covered with ceiling tiles and debris himself, but because they attacked RUDY'S City.
HE was genuinely PISSED OFF - it's the main reason he threw that Saudi "Prince's" check back in his face. Rudy reflected the feelings of most New York City folk - he wanted to avenge the 3000 dead and the physical destruction of a significant part of our City.
I still do.

153 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:58:27pm

re: #150 Orde

You need to polish the punchline a little, but it's a joke worthy of a laugh nonetheless.

154 Aussie Stinger  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:02:12pm

G'Day fellas (and gals),

For your fellow freedom-loving Conservatives overseas,....

Who do you reckon that we, your international allies, should be hoping to win?

Naturally the Dems would say Hillary cause of her supposed "multilateral" clap-trap-crap, but some of us take a longer term view and see freedom and opposition to totalitarianism as most important.

Rudy Giuliani seems the best bet from over here!

Which Republican should we be hoping for in particular?

155 Orde  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:05:50pm

re: #153 Slumbering Behemoth
So did Kid Rock have a born-again experience or what, he was just singing on Kimmel singing Amen.

156 pegcity  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:12:25pm

re: #143 jayzee

akin to "but i have tons of black friends"

157 Harley2007  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:17:42pm

Some guy posting an article on Opinion Journal said the next President has to be "ruthless" so that is why he is for Thompson!
Huh? Rudy is the only one I would call ruthless!
I couldn't believe it. that guy had to be watching too much tv!

158 nigella  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:21:04pm

Hi all Happy New Year!I'm a Rudy fan myself. Actually I'm surprised at myself because I am what you would call very Conservative. I guess my sense of survival overcomes my sense of moral indignation of Rudys' less than Conservative credentials.

159 Harley2007  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:21:16pm

re: #157 Harley2007

which mean, of course I believe Rudy is the only one ruthless enough to get the job done.
Rudy is the only one who can beat Hillary!
Rudyrudyrudyrudyrudyrudy.

160 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:23:13pm

re: #155 Orde

re: #153 Slumbering Behemoth
So did Kid Rock have a born-again experience or what, he was just singing on Kimmel singing Amen.

Well now that was a strange tangent. I don't know the answer to your question, I didn't watch the Kimmel show and I don't follow Kid Rock's music/career/personal life.

Why don't you tell me? You sound like you have the answer figured out already.

161 Orde  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:29:17pm

re: #156 pegcity

re: #143 jayzee
akin to "but i have tons of black friends"

Finally, a poster makes a reasonable comment--and thanks, because I hadn't seen post #143. Looking at it, my first thought about the "Jews for Ron Paul" group was how do those members define "Jew," since Ron Paulians include many in the Christian Identity cult who consider Brits/Anglos/Scandinavians to be the real Jews (thus the "identity" of the Christians is that they are the real Israel), while the vast majority of citizens of the nation-state of Israel are not considered Jews by such white supremacists. But perhaps your take of it is correct, perhaps Ron Paul really does have a few Jews (in the normal sense of the word) that unite in support of him.

162 Orde  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:35:59pm

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth
I'm still dazed and speechless by this absurd and surely uninformed Giuliani support on this thread. It would be funny but this stuff is threatening our security. I pretty much only listen to Christian music, but noticed you knew about secular stuff. I liked the Kid Rock song, like him from the talk shows, plus he looks like my kid brother, so I think I'll check out the album.

163 M. Bensson-Levi  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:51:36pm

Seems that an awful lot of you are for Rudy for our next President.
Good! That's why I like being here. Lots of smart folks.

Rudy, of all of them, flaws and all , is the ONLY one worthy to be our next President. The very best of the rest are poseurs, and they go rapidly downhill from there.

164 M. Bensson-Levi  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:59:37pm

re: #162 Orde

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth
I'm still dazed and speechless by this absurd and surely uninformed Giuliani support on this thread. It would be funny but this stuff is threatening our security. I pretty much only listen to Christian music, but noticed you knew about secular stuff. I liked the Kid Rock song, like him from the talk shows, plus he looks like my kid brother, so I think I'll check out the album.

The "dazed" part is obvious, but you must put a great deal more effort into the "speechless" part if you're to gain any credibility here. :-)

165 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:04:08pm

re: #162 Orde

Yes, Orde, you do seem dazed, but you are certainly not speechless. If you believe any opinion here is "absurd and uninformed" perhaps you would be better served by providing your "credible and informed" opinion as a counter, rather than sanctimoniously insulting all the Lizards on this thread with this absurdity:

re: #126 Orde

Are there any nonlemmings on this thread, besides me?

To me this sounds like you are insinuating that all Lizards posting on this thread, excepting yourself, are brainless fools. You may very well have said "Why am I the only one smart enough to see the troof. WAKE UP SHEEPLE!" But perhaps I am being unfair and not giving you the benefit of doubt. If you say you did not mean that, I will accept it.

On another note: Of course I know about 'secular stuff', I live in a secular country after all and thank God for it; theocracies are one the worst forms of government. Heck, even the Amish know something of the secular world. I just don't know anything about Kid Rock.

I hope you enjoy the Kid Rock CD, he's not really my cup of tea but everyone has different tastes.

See ya later, Orde.

166 jayzee  Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:20:50pm

re: #161 Orde

re: #156 pegcity


re: #143 jayzee
akin to "but i have tons of black friends"

Finally, a poster makes a reasonable comment--and thanks, because I hadn't seen post #143. Looking at it, my first thought about the "Jews for Ron Paul" group was how do those members define "Jew," since Ron Paulians include many in the Christian Identity cult who consider Brits/Anglos/Scandinavians to be the real Jews (thus the "identity" of the Christians is that they are the real Israel), while the vast majority of citizens of the nation-state of Israel are not considered Jews by such white supremacists. But perhaps your take of it is correct, perhaps Ron Paul really does have a few Jews (in the normal sense of the word) that unite in support of him.

I am sure there are Jews that support Paul. There are Jews that support Ahmedinijad, as well a those that supported Mussolini too. Useful idiots come in all shapes, sizes, races and religions.

Nonetheless if ones only rebutal to charges of antisemitism is, "Check out jews for Ron Paul" you gotta think...

167 Sid 6.7  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 12:05:56am

Our American liberty requires we of diverse opinion but like mind, support the Republican nominee. In the 2 party system accountability to principles need to be realized from within. Any split from the Trunk's guy ushers in
the darkness of Hillary.
The self-proclaimed high-minded pure and principled must not lose sight of the collectivist dem Clinton menace. They.... are counting on you not participating if your guy doesn't win the Republican nomination.
I shudder to think of them back in the White House.

168 allan5oh  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 12:10:50am

Afghanistan has needed a surge for quite a while now.

169 Droplet  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 12:35:29am

Rudy should spray agent orange DDT on the poppy fields while he's at it.

170 solus  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 2:02:16am

Rudy ruddy well rules!

Please persuade your religious friends that he's not the Antichrist. He'd be the American Churchill!

171 Apache30  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 2:10:30am

Rudy, you magnificent bastard!

*plays theme from 'Patton'*

172 solus  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 2:57:10am

No. 143

"Another intesting point - Rupert Murdoch's mother is an Orthodox Jew, which makes him Jewish by birth"

The old 'every bad guy is a yid' schtick. Fact is Murdoch isn't in the slightest bit Jewish.

"Murdoch was born Elisabeth Joy Greene in Melbourne to an Irish Protestant father and an upper-class English mother."

That mother was Presbyterian BTW...

David Aaronovitch put the same point to that Jamaican imams wife in a documentary on anti-semitism when she raised that point. The look on her face was priceless...

173 Aussie Stinger  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:04:27am

Rudy got the nod from Maggie Thatcher.

And to get the endorsement from one of the great Conservative leaders of all time, you with Reagan stood up to the Communists, says a lot.

Good stuff Mr. Giuliani!

174 snopercod  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:16:27am

re: #82 NYexpat

Duncan Who? I don't recall his name ever even being mentioned on any of the news stations.

Exactly. It's as if he doesn't exist. I've pretty much concluded that this is another case of the RNC sabotaging failing to support him because he's "too conservative".

175 snopercod  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:18:33am

re: #80 sattv4u2

That he does, except the $$$$$$$$$$$$ needed to make his case to the public

I sent him $100 months ago, but apparently that wasn't enough (grin).

176 uptight  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:56:48am

It's about time someone dealt with the Jihadist websites.

These sites rely on infrastructure controlled by the West. Usually they are hosted on damned servers in the West, yet it takes an age for them to be closed down. It's like watching flies swarming on poor famine victims who are too weak to brush them off.

An effective NSA/FBI/GCHQ should have the power pull the plug on any server that hosts Jihadist sites. This sort of site must be viewed by hosting companies as though it was child porn. And if it takes "complicity in terrorism" arrests to drive the message home then so be it.

If you still don't get what I'm talking about, or if you are starting to invoke the first amendment then ask yourself whether Lord Hawhaw could have broadcasted from a transmitter in the US or UK during WW2.

Jihadists are taking the piss and we need to bring the war to them.

177 uptight  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:57:57am

oh - and by the way - I include fucking YOUTUBE in those arrests

178 CLLRusso  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 5:42:40am

What the heck has happened to all the neat little boxes around comments, etc? I find their absence very disorderly and unprofessional.

But I'm easily annoyed this morning having spent the night covering up all my tropical plants from a hard freeze and I am still very cold.

I am beginning to like Rudy better than Mitt as he comes out and says what he will do about situations abroad, and frankly, it's stuff I'd want to do. I think I have backed away from the B52's at 30,000 feet just a little.

179 Maine's Michael  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 6:30:19am

Seriously, people should look far more closely into Romney's business history.

Giuliani only comes with personal baggage. I'm OK with that.

180 Jito463  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 6:31:07am

re: #88 wanumba

Not to mention that a mere month or two after September 11th (I don't like saying 9/11), another plane crashed on takeoff in New York City. No one ever seems to remember that (maybe because it was an accident, not terrorist related).

181 Jito463  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 6:32:42am

Just for the record, though, I support Thompson. But if Rudy wins the primary, I'd vote for him in the general election.

182 Orde  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 6:45:45am

re: #179 Maine's Michael

Seriously, people should look far more closely into Romney's business history.
Giuliani only comes with personal baggage. I'm OK with that.


*bangs head*

183 Bard  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:16:09am

I find his balance of clarity and vagueness regarding these matters a very good sign indeed.

184 Maine's Michael  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:30:24am

re: #182 Orde

Why the head banging, Orde?

Giuliani is about as clean, from the corporate ties point of view, as they come.

His life has been one of public service, and he has been effective. Any detours he took into the private sector have been puny and paltry by the standards of Bush and Romney, and he has no potential conflicts of interest.

185 Spiny Norman  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 8:00:55am

To the crusading moralist, personal "baggage" outweighs everything else.

186 opinionated  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 8:06:04am

re: #144 FoolsMate

re: #127 Opinionated

re: #124 FoolsMate
Rudy's great on national security and the war on terror but he's a bit of one-trick pony
Anyone who witnesses the remarkable transformation he performed in every facet of NYC's governance, may agree with you that he is a one trick pony.

That trick is to perform unbelievable positive political miracles.

His governance of New York City deserves merit, agreed, but I think he's frightfully liberal on social issues. Romney isn't perfect, but to me he's more credible on social issues.

Some of you folks have distorted Liberal to mean anyone who doesn't agree with you 100%.

I lived in NYC. I know real Liberals. I know semi Liberals.

Giuliani is not a Liberal. Liberals hate him with a passion.

He is pro choice. Some would say that is a Conservative position. It was Barry Goldwater's position. Pro choice is not pro abortion. It means you believe Government has no business in people's private lives.

Where else is he a Liberal? He doesn't hate gays. Contrary to the lies he is not and has never been for any form of gay marriage.

What else? Guns? If he, as Mayor, of NYC didn't want to get guns off the streets he would be certifiable. He has said over and over again that he wouldn't harm Gun interests.

Was he a Liberal when he complained and threatened about blasphemous art? Was a a Liberal when he told Sharpton and the other race hustler that there was a new Sheriff in town. Was he a Liberal when he drove the NY Times nuts?

You want to see Liberal, nominate a Republican who will lose to Obama or Clinton or Edwards. You'll get a taste of what Liberal really means.

187 opinionated  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 8:09:01am

re: #182 Orde

re: #179 Maine's Michael

Seriously, people should look far more closely into Romney's business history.
Giuliani only comes with personal baggage. I'm OK with that.

*bangs head*

You seem to do a lot of that head banging. Is that why you are so often wrong?

188 Maine's Michael  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 8:21:09am

re: #187 opinionated

I disagree. Orde is often right. Just not about Romney ;)

I have no doubt that if Giuliani were the nominee, Orde would vote for him.

189 Opinionated  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 8:25:16am

Everyone knows Alan Combs of FOXNews. You know he is a Liberal, but you really have no clue. He tapers it for FOX.

He used to have a radio show in NYC in the 70's early 80's. re: #188 Maine's Michael

re: #187 opinionated

I disagree. Orde is often right. Just not about Romney ;)

I have no doubt that if Giuliani were the nominee, Orde would vote for him.

One of us is misreading him. Although you probably are much more familiar with him.

190 Opinionated  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 8:28:27am

re: #189 Opinionated

Everyone knows Alan Combs of FOXNews. You know he is a Liberal, but you really have no clue. He tapers it for FOX.

He used to have a radio show in NYC in the 70's early 80's. re: #188 Maine's Michael

re: #187 opinionated

I disagree. Orde is often right. Just not about Romney ;)

I have no doubt that if Giuliani were the nominee, Orde would vote for him.

One of us is misreading him. Although you probably are much more familiar with him.

Sorry, if that's confusing. I started to write something else and didn't realize I had not deleted it.

191 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 8:45:29am

re: #170 solus

Interesting that you would mention Churchill, it reminded me of this cute little exercise:

It is time to elect a new world leader, and only your vote counts.
Here are the facts about the three candidates. Who would you vote for?

Candidate A.

Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologers.
He's had two mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.

Candidate B.

He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in
college and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.

Candidate C

He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drinks an occasional beer and never cheated on his wife.

Which of these candidates would be our choice?

Decide first... no peeking, then scroll down for the response.


Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Candidate B is Winston Churchill.
Candidate C is Adolf Hitler.

Of course pretty much everyone has seen this already and knew what the answers would be, but it's still an interesting way of illustrating how taking the so-called 'moral high ground' when choosing leaders can have deadly and unintended consequences. :cough: Carter :cough:

Rudy has his warts to be sure, but I would not discount him simply for moral or religious reasons as that seems dangerously short-sighted and a bit immature to me. I have not made up my mind yet who I will support in the primary, but I know I would support a Rudy over a Romney or Huckabee (I have a severe mistrust of faith panderers, I've seen them take advantage of the good hearted yet naive faithful too many times) and most certainly over a McCain or Paul.

192 Opinionated  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 9:14:06am

re: #191 Slumbering Behemoth

The most "moral" President of our time-who would never lie to you- and only lusted in his heart- the miserable Jimmy Carter.

193 Orde  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 9:33:56am

re: #187 opinionated
I don't think the head-banging is why I'm often wrong; I suspect it's due to insufficient information, inaccurate information, presuppositions, carelessness, typical human errors.

194 Orde  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 9:35:58am

re: #188 Maine's Michael
No, I doubt I could vote for Giuliani, I can't imagine any other candidate of either party that would hasten the advance of the ummah faster than Rudy.

195 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 9:50:39am

re: #194 Orde

re: #188 Maine's Michael
No, I doubt I could vote for Giuliani, I can't imagine any other candidate of either party that would hasten the advance of the ummah faster than Rudy.

You've gotta be kidding me Orde. Really? Really? Faster than a Clinton, Edwards, or a Paul? That is some truly backwards thinking my friend, not to mention a bit disconcerting.

I think you've banged your head one too many times, and your statement above makes me think some sort of bigotry is motivating your point of view.

196 Orde  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 9:58:01am

re: #184 Maine's Michael

re: #182 Orde
Why the head banging, Orde?


Because you and opinionated are two of the several lizards whose opinions I greatly respect and look forward to reading, so as much as I have an anthropological fascination for observing the Naked Emperor phenomenon on this thread, it provokes mind-boggling exasperation. To me, the perception displayed on this thread is akin to that of Olmert and Livni, it's freaking suicidal. And I'm not basing this on Rudy's older comments about "the Muslim faith is a beautiful, beautiful religion" or "a few people who have distorted a great religion," no, just Dec 9 on Meet the Press Rudy himself gave the lamest, scariest explanations in addressing the various criticisms against him in explaining such things about how Qatar is moderate, our friend, and the kind of people we need to be dealing with; why he dropped out of the ISG (not the benign reasons wilfully blind lizards have suggested), etc. Here are a few links:

Rudy Giuliani's Ties to Terror (YouTube)
Rudy & Bernard Kerik Scandal (NYDaily News)
Rudy AWOL from Iraq Study Group
Giuliani & Qatar (Wall Street Journal)
Ed Koch's Concerns About Rudy (NYPress)
Rudy w/Qatar Sheik on Larry King after taking $millions and Qatar's shielding 9/11 mastermind

...and in Rudy's own words, Meet the Press, start watching at the 14 minute mark to get to the (shocking) part, and if the link doesn't directly lead to the Giuliani video, type in Giuliani in the MTP search bar and select the Dec 9 Meet the Press video (Rudy exposes his crazy self)

197 Orde  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 10:04:53am

re: #195 Slumbering Behemoth
locura

198 Opinionated  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 10:12:27am

re: #196 Orde

Thanks for the compliment but I really don't get your point. You believe Giuliani would bend over for radical Islam?

Contemplate that you may be wrong. Ask yourself why you only find items like the following about Giuliani?

Top GOP contender alienates Arab Americans

The leading Republican candidate for President, Rudy Giuliani, is not trying to win any friends in the Arab American community. He is ramping up "war on terror" rhetoric aggressively, opposing Palestinian independence and allying with some of the most stringent neo-cons, some of whom were discredited for their role in promoting the invasion of Iraq. But if Arab Americans mobilize as voters, they can prevent a Giuliani presidency.

[Link: www.arabamericannews.com...]

This is with whom you are making common cause in opposing Giuliani.

199 Orde  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 10:15:31am

re: #188 Maine's Michael
P.S., to clarify, I'm not a Romney supporter either, though I would vote for any GOP candidate except for Rudy over a Dem.

200 Opinionated  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 10:24:09am

re: #196 Orde

I don't believe the other issues you raise are really legitimate, but I do want to address Koch.

Koch was Mr Mayor. Considering the miserable people we had in that office, Koch looked stellar. He believed he would die with the accolades fresh in his ear.

Then came Giuliani. In comparison Koch too looked a miserable failure, presiding over a decaying and dying city and dangerous.

Koch will never forgive Giuliani for relegating him to a second tier.

And Koch, what more can you say but that he has always supported Hillary Clinton.

Ode to a politician dying young. Koch outlived his glory. It must be painful for him.

201 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 10:27:23am

re: #197 Orde

re: #195 Slumbering Behemoth
locura

That has got to be one of the weirdest things I have ever seen. Harmless, but still very weird. Good work finding it.

Anyway, I've only had time to look at the Dec. 9th MTP that you referenced, and I hardly find that to be a shocking display of craziness from Rudy. I almost get the impression that you're insinuating that he should have single-handedly prevented the Sept. 11th attacks on the WTC buildings.

I too knew about al-Q at the time, I was also aware of them declaring war on the Western world and the US in particular, and I do remember the car bombing of the WTC in '93. Like Rudy, I too would have never conceived of an attack of the nature we saw on 9/11/01. He states, and it is not out of the realm of the conceivable to believe him, that he was working with information that was given to him from higher up the chain of command.

Methinks you are picking rotten cherries here, but I will have a look at the other links you've provided when I get the time.

See ya later, Orde.

202 Orde  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 10:32:00am

re: #198 Opinionated
1. Youre welcome. Yes, Rudy will take it up his ass for radical Islam--Particularly if by "radical Islam" it is meant, what should be meant but usually is not, Salafism and Al-Azhar approved Sunni Islam, which I actually think is the more insidious threat, worse than uber-Salafism (as in takfiri Salafism) or Qutbist-inspired groups such as Al-Qaeda.
2. Contemplated it. I'm confident I'm not wrong on Rudy. I've read Rudy's clueless advisers' works, heard from Rudy's own lips, and watched Rudy with my own eyes. And granted, though I am only a beginning student of Islam, I've got a comparatively decent understanding of it. Arab-Americans like other Americans hear Rudy's words: "Islamic terrorism, blah, blah, blah, Islamic terrorists, 9/11, Islamic terrorism, blah, blah, 9/11" and when compared to what they hear from other candidates it superficially can sound tough, that's all. Perception, lack of information.

203 solus  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 1:02:25pm

re: #191 Slumbering Behemoth

I couldn't agree more! The one thing I prefer about British politics is that we don't conflate their personal lives too much with their job. They have to be REALLY kinky before it becomes an issue ([Link: en.wikipedia.org...] is a good example of too far.

However. We don't have a Rudi!

I'm his Number one Limey Fanboi! ;-)

204 Maine's Michael  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 1:15:01pm

re: #196 Orde

Thanks for the links.

I will read each of them carefully this evening.

205 Maine's Michael  Thu, Jan 3, 2008 1:17:18pm

re: #204 Maine's Michael

One more thing, Orde.

Would you actually vote for any of the dems over Giuliani?

If so, can you encapsulate, in one paragraph, why you would do so?

206 Mr Spiffy  Fri, Jan 4, 2008 4:11:29pm

He’s the anti-Ron Paul

He's the bizarro-world RP

207 Mr Spiffy  Fri, Jan 4, 2008 4:12:12pm

He’s the anti-Ron Paul

or the RP from Qward

208 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 5, 2008 6:56:59am

Rudy'd foreign policy advisors include Norman Podhoretz, David Frum, Daniel Pipes, and Michael Rubin. |If you don't know who they are, just Google them. It is difficult to imagine a stronger set of foreign policy advisors for someone publicly committed to vigorously pursuing what he terms the Global War of the Terrorists on Us.

He certainly didn't have any problem throwing that Saudi prince's ten million dollar bribe back in his face, nor in clamping down on Arafat's city-trotting ways.

He has seen firsthand what the terrorists are capable of, and he would die before he would allow a repetition on his watch. He also subscribes to proactive policies to prevent bad things from happening; that is the essence of the strategy he employed to clean up NY City.

If he had a death fatwa laid against him, he would no doubt set it up on his mantle beside the mob hit contract that did not prevent him from busting up the five NY City Mafia crime families as a federal prosecutor. The man is a tough customer with steel teeth; just the kind of flinty SOB we need to deal with these savage bastards.


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