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-RetweetIran Provokes US Navy

Mon, Jan 7, 2008 at 8:11:59 am PST

No doubt emboldened by the weakness of the Democratic candidates for president (and some of the Republicans too), Iran is feeling frisky in the Strait of Hormuz: Pentagon says ships harassed by Iran.

WASHINGTON - In what U.S. officials called a serious provocation, Iranian Revolutionary Guard boats harassed and provoked three U.S. Navy ships in the strategic Strait of Hormuz, threatening to explode the American vessels.

U.S. forces were on the verge of firing on the Iranian boats in the early Sunday incident, when the boats turned and moved away, a Pentagon official said. “It is the most serious provocation of this sort that we’ve seen yet,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record.

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said: “We urge the Iranians to refrain from such provocative actions that could lead to a dangerous incident in the future.”

The incident occurred at about 5 a.m. local time Sunday as a U.S. Navy cruiser, destroyer and frigate were on their way into the Persian Gulf and passing through the strait — a major oil shipping route.

Five small boats began charging the U.S. ships, dropping boxes in the water in front of the ships and forcing the U.S. ships to take evasive maneuvers, the Pentagon official said.

There were no injuries but the official said there could have been, because the Iranian boats turned away “literally at the very moment that U.S. forces were preparing to open fire” in self defense.

The official said he didn’t have the precise transcript of communications that passed between the two forces, but said the Iranians radioed something like “we’re coming at you and you’ll explode in a couple minutes.”

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297 comments

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1 bigdicksplace  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:13:50am

And we didn't sink those ships because?

2 Wisenheimer  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:15:08am

Bad move.

The U.S. Navy does not back down.

3 JammieWearingFool  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:15:11am

The Iranians haven't yet embraced change.

4 rawmuse  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:15:25am

They are testing our resolve. If we don't face them down, we lose. It really is that simple. This little exercise should be expensive, to them.

5 DistantThunder  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:15:26am

"You don't trod on Superman's cape,"
"You don't spit in the wind."
"You don't pull the mack off the ole Lone Ranger,
And you don't mess around with Bush."

I wonder what that sounds like in Iranian (persian?)

6 Venezuela lover  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:15:38am

Wusses. Come on back and fight.

7 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:15:41am
Five small boats began charging the U.S. ships, dropping boxes in the water in front of the ships and forcing the U.S. ships to take evasive maneuvers, the Pentagon official said.

Oh, look. Presents!

8 derek  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:15:44am

They should have opened fire on those little punks.

Operation Praying Mantis II coming to a war theatre near you.

9 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:15:50am

All the Iranians succeeded in doing is improving Saudi/U.S. relations.

10 Northpaw  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:16:01am

but said the Iranians radioed something like “we’re coming at you and you’ll explode in a couple minutes.”

What is it about these people that they always feel the need to taunt and blather before pulling off a little military "mission"? It's like they're six-years-old.

11 DistantThunder  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:16:04am

mack=mask PIMF

12 Sizzlack  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:16:11am

The revolutionary guard is just begging to get fu**ed up by the Navy.

13 ibmkeyboard  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:16:29am

I dare them to fuck mess with the Navy.

14 Killian Bundy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:16:47am

Now go away.

/or we shall taunt you a second time

15 Sol Roth  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:16:56am

Lame. I've seen four year olds bait a hook better than the Islamic Aryan "Navy."

It's just the Moolahs trying to spike the price of oil so they can clean-up in the derivatives markets.

16 Carl in Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:17:27am

Good Morning Charles and everyone else!

What were the US ships waiting for? Fifteen sailors to be taken hostage?

17 Killian Bundy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:17:57am

re: #1 bigdicksplace

And we didn't sink those ships because?

/rules of engagement

18 gunner  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:18:16am

one can only guess what was in those boxes...

19 Carl in Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:18:18am

re: #9 EC Marm

All the Iranians succeeded in doing is improving Saudi/U.S. relations.

Why do you say that? The Saudis have been playing up to the Iranians lately (witness Dinner Jacket's trip to the hajj).

20 sneakerz  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:18:22am

When people are cruisin' for a bruisin' sometimes it's best to give them what they want.

22 mean Gene  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:18:52am

If dems win and we haven't dealt with the Iranians yet, they will own the Straits of Hormuz!
And if we do deal with them the dems will say it is a manufactured event.
We've got to stop dems from framing the foreign policy.

23 Pent.  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:19:14am

re: #17 Killian Bundy

re: #1 bigdicksplace

And we didn't sink those ships because?

/rules of engagement

The official said he didn’t have the precise transcript of communications that passed between the two forces, but said the Iranians radioed something like “we’re coming at you and you’ll explode in a couple minutes.”


I would think that that would be reason enough...

24 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:19:20am

Asshatery.
Jackassery.
Assclownery.

Just searching for the right word to describe the Iranians actions. Stupidity is too light and dumbf@@kery is too strong this early in the am.

25 uncle_walter87  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:19:45am

Iran: Bringing you opportunities to back wuss out since 1979.

26 Carl in Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:20:00am

re: #22 mean Gene

If dems win and we haven't dealt with the Iranians yet, they will own the Straits of Hormuz!
And if we do deal with them the dems will say it is a manufactured event.
We've got to stop dems from framing the foreign policy.

Unfortunately, I don't think Huckabee is much better. And he's leading right now.

27 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:20:18am

re: #18 gunner

one can only guess what was in those boxes...

Kebab takeout. With some nice hummus, dolmas and an illegal shiraz to go with it all.

28 Ojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:20:22am
but said the Iranians radioed something like “we’re coming at you and you’ll explode in a couple minutes.”

We should say this to them.

29 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:20:45am

President Bush needs to keep his word.

30 zorro43  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:20:51am

A couple more seconds and some Imans men would have collected their seventy-two goats.

31 uncle_walter87  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:20:55am

Iran: Bringing you opportunities to back wuss out since 1979.

That's what I meant. Not enough coffee yet.

32 Carl in Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:21:02am

re: #24 coquimbojoe

Asshatery.
Jackassery.
Assclownery.

Just searching for the right word to describe the Iranians actions. Stupidity is too light and dumbf@@kery is too strong this early in the am.

And how do you define American actions. I call them dhimmitude. Sounds a lot like how the IDF has its hands tied behind its back here.

33 mean Gene  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:21:10am

re: #21 Ojoe

From my place (at the beach) looking up toward those mountains they look much more deeply covered in snow.
Probably just a trick of the eye.
Beautiful cam.
Thanks.

34 Killian Bundy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:21:22am

re: #23 Pent.

I would think that that would be reason enough...

Obviously not.

/or they'd have been toast

35 ibmkeyboard  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:21:30am
But others close to the former first lady now see no possible road to victory, sources claim.

Developing...

[The dramatic reversal of fortunes has left the media establishment stunned and racing to keep up with fast-moving changes. who gives a frig?

In its final poll before Iowa, CNN showed Clinton with a two-point lead over Obama. Editorial decisions were being made based on an understanding the Democratic primary race would be close, explained a network executive.:]

Drudge,
Hillary might throw in the towel.

36 bigdicksplace  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:22:01am

re: #17 Killian Bundy

The guidelines were clearly met.

37 Alas  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:22:04am

War with Iran is inevitable. The only question is when. They are playing a game to see how far they can go, but they will eventually push until the risk/benefit equation tilts toward war. A wasp can only sting an 800-lb gorilla so many times before the gorilla gets off its *ss and goes after the nest.

Islamists are playing a dangerous game. They think that jihad on all its fronts is going well for them, but the West has not even begun tackling the problem yet. We are still in appeasement and wishful thinking mode, but there were many years of appeasement before WWII until Britain and the US finally through themselves into it. The rest us history. Islamism will one day be history as well, no matter how brazen and aggressive they now seem and despite how many leftists in the West they have at their disposal as useful idiots. Things looked dire before WWII as well. Again, history was ultimately not kind to the fascists, not will it be kind to Islamism.

38 jcm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:22:07am

re: #1 bigdicksplace

re: #2 Wisenheimer

You don't shoot just because they are being provocative.
The Iranians wanted an incident. We didn't oblige.

39 bluegrass boy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:22:11am

does iran get cable?...have they watched the history channel?...ive seen some of the capabilities of the us navy...me thinks they made the correct decision to vacate the immediate area, and quickly...

40 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:22:20am

Quick, somebody check Kos and Rosie's site for the inevitable comparisons to the Gulf of Tonkin incident! GOOGLE IT, PEOPLE!

/false flag, Bush made it up, question the timing, et cetera

41 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:22:35am

re: #32 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #24 coquimbojoe

Asshatery.
Jackassery.
Assclownery.

Just searching for the right word to describe the Iranians actions. Stupidity is too light and dumbf@@kery is too strong this early in the am.

And how do you define American actions. I call them dhimmitude. Sounds a lot like how the IDF has its hands tied behind its back here.

Sadly, I agree.

42 Kaintuck  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:22:39am

"Gulf of Tonkin! Gulf of Tonkin! Google It!"

-Rosie

43 Golem Akbar  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:23:09am

I got it, I got it...I ain't got it (Mel Brooks' History of the World, Park I).

44 Ojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:23:22am

re: #35 ibmkeyboard

Just for the entertainment, I'd like to see her divorce Bill to see if her poll numbers go up.

45 Killian Bundy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:23:27am

re: #29 storagemanager

President Bush needs to keep his word.

After that last NIE ass covering document?

/no way, trust me, it's now, sadly, off the table

46 Golem Akbar  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:24:25am

Anklebiters!

47 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:24:31am

re: #32 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #24 coquimbojoe


Asshatery.
Jackassery.
Assclownery.

Just searching for the right word to describe the Iranians actions. Stupidity is too light and dumbf@@kery is too strong this early in the am.


And how do you define American actions. I call them dhimmitude. Sounds a lot like how the IDF has its hands tied behind its back here.


Thank you..I do too...President Bush made a promise to America and Israel...he needs to keep it.

48 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:24:36am

So the Iranians knew at precisely what distance the Navy draws its shoot/no shoot lines? Great.

I say the USN extends its safe zone 100 yards without telling anybody, and let the Iranians get their eternal rewards the loud and messy way.

49 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:24:38am

re: #19 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #9 EC Marm

All the Iranians succeeded in doing is improving Saudi/U.S. relations.

Why do you say that? The Saudis have been playing up to the Iranians lately (witness Dinner Jacket's trip to the hajj).


I think the Saud family believes that Iran is in the process of developing nukes and doesn't believe for one second any report from the U.S. They may be 'playing nice' for the moment, in a ceremonial event, but it won't last. The Sauds know that they need U.S. naval forces to keep the Strait open.

50 Killian Bundy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:24:54am

re: #36 bigdicksplace

The guidelines were clearly met.

What guidelines?

/are you intimate with the Navy ROE is that area?

51 Kaintuck  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:25:41am

re: #40 Pawn of the Oppressor

Quick, somebody check Kos and Rosie's site for the inevitable comparisons to the Gulf of Tonkin incident! GOOGLE IT, PEOPLE!

/false flag, Bush made it up, question the timing, et cetera

Curses! Late again! :-(

52 dsrtegl  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:26:03am

I think someone needs to tell Iran that this isn't 1979 and Jimmy Carter isn't in charge any more...

53 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:26:17am
54 mean Gene  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:26:17am

re: #26 Carl in Jerusalem
Good point, Carl.
But the odd thing about a compassionate Christian is that, like their God, they can get ardor to rise all the way up to their nose, and when that happens, watch out!
Sure, Huck might think he's going to go out and talk/dialogue with the likes of Iran, but reality will mug him just as much as 9-11 mugged GWB.
(I would prefer some other R for president, one who realizes we have already been mugged by reality.)

55 jcm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:26:34am

Folks remember the Vincennes?

US Navy was in a little shooting match with Iranian gunboats. Then a plane pops up with a Iranian F-14 IFF transponder, and Vincennes takes out the threat, turns to to have been an airliner. Iran wins the propaganda match on that one.

56 brent  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:26:39am

You all beat me to i t - Dylan Avery told me that this was supposed to be a double-secret false flag operation, but the CIA was not able to preload the ships with explosives in time.

/waiting for 25% of the American public to believe me.

57 ibmkeyboard  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:26:48am

re: #44 Ojoe

re: #35 ibmkeyboard

Just for the entertainment, I'd like to see her divorce Bill to see if her poll numbers go up.

Bwah.

I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you!,

Now you Sum Bitches vote for me..

Ahahahah.

58 Shug  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:27:25am

Certainly we were in their waters and we were provoking them by being there

/ ron paul

59 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:28:14am

re: #35 ibmkeyboard

But others close to the former first lady now see no possible road to victory, sources claim.Developing...

[The dramatic reversal of fortunes has left the media establishment stunned and racing to keep up with fast-moving changes. who gives a frig?

In its final poll before Iowa, CNN showed Clinton with a two-point lead over Obama. Editorial decisions were being made based on an understanding the Democratic primary race would be close, explained a network executive.:]

Drudge,
Hillary might throw in the towel.

I read that. A lifetime of ambition is not going to be stopped by a couple of setbacks. This gives her the opportunity to turn things around and be a true comeback kid. I would bet the discussion of her leaving the race is coldly calculated by the Hil! team (what isn't?). As much as I would like to see her out of the race forever, I doubt that it will happen so soon.

60 JohnRC  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:28:20am

Haven't read all the comments so I don't know if someone has already mentioned this. They could be screwing with the oil market. It's easy to give it the jitters. A rise of just a couple of dollars translates into huge amounts for the iraniacs. Hopefully it's just a high-stakes shakedown.

61 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:28:25am

I remember the Cole.

62 jcm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:28:57am

re: #58 Shug

Certainly we were in their waters and we were provoking them by being there

/ ron paul

Certainly we were in their waters hemisphere and we were provoking them by being there.

Fixed it.

63 harrylook  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:28:59am

Hmm. Didn't realize the shia were into suicide like the sunni...

64 Mike DeGuzman  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:29:43am

Remembering the Gulf of Tokin incident, I believe if the U.S. Navy had returned fire and destroyed the Iranian speedboats, the liberals/left would be crying out and blame Bush for wanting to escalate war with Iran and have a reason to invade Iran!

65 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:29:44am

re: #38 jcm

re: #1 bigdicksplace

re: #2 Wisenheimer

You don't shoot just because they are being provocative.
The Iranians wanted an incident. We didn't oblige.

The trick is to get the Iranians to shoot first, not us. If they shoot first, they will be the aggressors, and we'll just look like we were defending our ships. If we shoot first, Iran will scream bloody murder all over the world and in the UN.

66 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:29:47am

Directed energy weapons can't come soon enough.

"Hey, hey... we're catching fire!"

67 Shug  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:29:49am

anybody wanna bet these boats are full of toddlers?

dead toddlers floating with their dollies make such nice photos for al jazeera and CNN and the NY Times

68 jamgarr  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:30:58am

I think their translator needs a refresher course. It's not:
"Speak loudly and carry floating boxes."

69 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:31:14am

re: #63 harrylook

Hmm. Didn't realize the shia were into suicide like the sunni...


241 dead marines in Lebanon...of course they are...next time it could have a bomb on board when the don"t shoot orders are given.

70 itellu3times  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:31:18am

re: #52 dsrtegl

I think someone needs to tell Iran that this isn't 1979 and Jimmy Carter isn't in charge any more...

After this, someone needs to tell me.

71 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:31:41am

re: #57 ibmkeyboard


Bwah.

I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you!,

Now you Sum Bitches vote for me..

Ahahahah.

Come to think of it... Why hasn't Bill converted?

Wait... Eh, he'd be expected to actually take care of his multiple wives instead of throwing them out with the garbage, and siding with Islam really limits your pandering opportunities. Never mind.

72 BBEV  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:31:48am

OT kind of. Here are pictures of downtown Manchester, NH right now it is a mad house around here and I will post most later. I said kind of because as you look at the pictures you will notice almost no Republicans. I guess we have to work for a living. I will not be around to answer but will post more later. Back to work.

Manchester, NH Pic's

73 yochanan  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:32:04am

F''' the iranian dogs with something that goes boom

74 Right Turn Clyde  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:32:27am

This was common stuff in 88 during Operation Earnest Will. They'd circle us and sometimes charge, would usually turn when we put some rounds across their bow.

75 Wisenheimer  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:32:30am

re: #35 ibmkeyboard

Drudge,
Hillary might throw in the towel.

Inadvertantly hilarious quote of the morning:

"She doesn't want the Clinton brand to be damaged with back-to-back-to-back defeats."

76 jcm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:32:47am

re: #69 storagemanager

re: #63 harrylook

Hmm. Didn't realize the shia were into suicide like the sunni...


241 dead marines in Lebanon...of course they are...next time it could have a bomb on board when the don"t shoot orders are given.

There's a shoot line a certain distance out, if the gunboats get to a set distance warning shots, then fire for effect.

77 ggt  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:33:02am

re: #27 coquimbojoe

I was picturing "door #1, door #2 or. . . . "

78 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:33:30am

re: #74 Right Turn Clyde

This was common stuff in 88 during Operation Earnest Will. They'd circle us and sometimes charge, would usually turn when we put some rounds across their bow.


That was before the Cole...betting American lives is a fools bet.

79 Gumby  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:33:39am

re: #18 gunner

one can only guess what was in those boxes...


Dumping ammo boxes so claims of firing on unarmed 'gnat' boats could be claimed at a UN investigative commission.

80 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:34:11am

re: #76 jcm

re: #69 storagemanager


re: #63 harrylook

Hmm. Didn't realize the shia were into suicide like the sunni...

241 dead marines in Lebanon...of course they are...next time it could have a bomb on board when the don"t shoot orders are given.

There's a shoot line a certain distance out, if the gunboats get to a set distance warning shots, then fire for effect.


They got very close today.

81 Salem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:34:19am

I had a premonition last night that something was about to happen with Iran, I wish I hadn't kept it to myself. I thought it would be something internal, though, and anyone could guess that Iran would soon grow restless, the NIE report pushing them out of the International spotlight the way it did.

82 Troika37  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:34:56am

So now, the next time this happens, they'll be able to get alongside. The MO, after all, is 'harass and run away.'

Hopefully the Navy will step up.

83 jcm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:36:08am

re: #80 storagemanager

I don't see an actual distance mentioned. They walked right up the line, report says we were on the verge of firing.

84 Van Impe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:36:09am
Five small boats began charging the U.S. ships, dropping boxes in the water in front of the ships and forcing the U.S. ships to take evasive maneuvers, the Pentagon official said.

Simply a (very bold) dry run by the Iranians to gauge the reaction and tactics of the USN.

85 gonecamping  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:36:37am

If the Revolutionary Guard wants to provide the US Navy with some target practice... smile, say thank you and send some lard anointed rounds their way.

86 jcm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:37:19am

re: #82 Troika37

Again there is an engagement line. Anything at a certain distance will be fired on. They won't get inside that line.

87 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:37:49am

re: #83 jcm

re: #80 storagemanager

I don't see an actual distance mentioned. They walked right up the line, report says we were on the verge of firing.


I saw 200 yards, which is about two football fields away. Using yards instead of feet makes it seem closer than it really was.

88 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:37:51am

People crack me up...Iran is waiting for the Mahdi to appear...he will only come if Chaos reins in the world...The President of Iran said at the U.N. please come soon...and some of you think they don't want a war...too funny.

89 jcm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:38:05am

re: #84 Van Impe

Five small boats began charging the U.S. ships, dropping boxes in the water in front of the ships and forcing the U.S. ships to take evasive maneuvers, the Pentagon official said.

Simply a (very bold) dry run by the Iranians to gauge the reaction and tactics of the USN.

And by not engaging we've denied them that information.

90 kentuckyjoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:38:06am

If there were any Tail Hooks around, we could charge them with Sexual Harrassment.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Viggo Mortenson is supporting Dennis "UFOELF" Kucinich.

91 johnnygriswold  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:38:16am

Any truth to the rumor that the Iranian ships had a "Ron Paul '08" banner hanging off the side?

93 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:38:40am
There were no injuries but the official said there could have been, because the Iranian boats turned away “literally at the very moment that U.S. forces were preparing to open fire” in self defense.

Why didn't we just sink all the MFers?

Oh, sorry, I forget. We're politically correct now.

94 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:39:36am
95 Shr_Nfr  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:39:41am

They should have opened fire anyway. People in American do not understand the Honor/Shame ethos that exists in the ME. By sinking the whole batch of them, it would have sent the strongest measure possible to Iran. If you come near us and tell us you will blow us up, you are a batch of goners. We are not the batch of wimps that Britain was.

This will not be the last time this will happen. We have sufficient causis belli against Iran from times past to treat anything like this as sufficient reason to take action.

96 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:39:50am

re: #88 storagemanager

People crack me up...Iran is waiting for the Mahdi to appear...he will only come if Chaos reins in the world...The President of Iran said at the U.N. please come soon...and some of you think they don't want a war...too funny.


Come on, storage. If they wanted a war, they would have had one today. It's ankle biting.

97 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:39:54am

re: #7 Dar ul Harb

Five small boats began charging the U.S. ships, dropping boxes in the water in front of the ships and forcing the U.S. ships to take evasive maneuvers, the Pentagon official said.

Oh, look. Presents!

A new Boston Tea Party!

98 godfrey  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:39:57am

Why don't we change up our rules of engagement from time to time? The more predictable we get, the more vulnerable. All it would take are small variations, changed at random. This feasible?

99 jcm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:40:02am

re: #87 EC Marm

re: #83 jcm

re: #80 storagemanager

I don't see an actual distance mentioned. They walked right up the line, report says we were on the verge of firing.


I saw 200 yards, which is about two football fields away. Using yards instead of feet makes it seem closer than it really was.

Do you know what a CIWS would do to a "gunboat" at 200 yards?
Wouldn't be enough left for the fish to eat.

100 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:40:24am

re: #82 Troika37

So now, the next time this happens, they'll be able to get alongside.

Um... why?

101 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:40:33am

re: #93 Ward Cleaver

There were no injuries but the official said there could have been, because the Iranian boats turned away “literally at the very moment that U.S. forces were preparing to open fire” in self defense.

Why didn't we just sink all the MFers?

Oh, sorry, I forget. We're politically correct now.

Politically Correct = Dhimmitude. Carl, can I get an 'amen'?

102 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:40:35am

How about this thought...

Hillary pulls out... Al Gore enters... Discuss...

103 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:40:42am

What would Reagan do ?

104 Bubbaman  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:40:45am

re: #63 harrylook

Hmm. Didn't realize the shia were into suicide like the sunni...

No, they'd rather march little children wrapped in blankets carrying toy keys in minfields.

From an article in the 1980's (TNR, I believe?)

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Ayatollah Khomeini imported 500,000 small plastic keys from Taiwan. The trinkets were meant to be inspirational. After Iraq invaded in September 1980, it had quickly become clear that Iran's forces were no match for Saddam Hussein's professional, well-armed military. To compensate for their disadvantage, Khomeini sent Iranian children, some as young as twelve years old, to the front lines. There, they marched in formation across minefields toward the enemy, clearing a path with their bodies. Before every mission, one of the Taiwanese keys would be hung around each child's neck. It was supposed to open the gates to paradise for them.

At one point, however, the earthly gore became a matter of concern. "In the past," wrote the semi-official Iranian daily Ettelaat as the war raged on, "we had child-volunteers: 14-, 15-, and 16-year-olds. They went into the minefields. Their eyes saw nothing. Their ears heard nothing. And then, a few moments later, one saw clouds of dust. When the dust had settled again, there was nothing more to be seen of them. Somewhere, widely scattered in the landscape, there lay scraps of burnt flesh and pieces of bone." Such scenes would henceforth be avoided, Ettelaat assured its readers. "Before entering the minefields, the children [now] wrap themselves in blankets and they roll on the ground, so that their body parts stay together after the explosion of the mines and one can carry them to the graves."

105 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:41:32am

re: #96 EC Marm

re: #88 storagemanager


People crack me up...Iran is waiting for the Mahdi to appear...he will only come if Chaos reins in the world...The President of Iran said at the U.N. please come soon...and some of you think they don't want a war...too funny.

Come on, storage. If they wanted a war, they would have had one today. It's ankle biting.


It's the same way wars in the past were started...there is nothing new under the sun.

106 Carl in Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:41:46am

re: #49 EC Marm

re: #19 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #9 EC Marm

All the Iranians succeeded in doing is improving Saudi/U.S. relations.

Why do you say that? The Saudis have been playing up to the Iranians lately (witness Dinner Jacket's trip to the hajj).


I think the Saud family believes that Iran is in the process of developing nukes and doesn't believe for one second any report from the U.S. They may be 'playing nice' for the moment, in a ceremonial event, but it won't last. The Sauds know that they need U.S. naval forces to keep the Strait open.

And you really think they're going to rely on the US after incidents like this? I would think incidents like this would push them towards a rapprochement with the Iranians.

107 Right Turn Clyde  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:41:46am

re: #87 EC Marm

In 88 the line for warning shots was 1000 yards, weapons free was 500 yards if on an intercept course. Seems we need to revert to that policy.

109 BabbaZee  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:42:20am
110 Salem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:42:53am

re: #92 BabbaZee

re: #81 Salem

I had a premonition last night that something was about to happen with Iran, I wish I hadn't kept it to myself.

Agh! The music! It bores into my braaain!

111 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:43:11am

re: #98 godfrey

Why don't we change up our rules of engagement from time to time?

ROE in "peacetime" are meant to have a level of transperency to them, I should think. You're supposed to KNOW how close you can get to a USN vessel without being fired upon.

112 Carl in Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:43:27am

re: #63 harrylook

Hmm. Didn't realize the shia were into suicide like the sunni...

In the Iran - Iraq war, the suicide bombers all came from Iran.

113 Diamond Bullet  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:43:35am

Perhaps they thought we were just the British Navy, there to drop off another dozen royal marines for "vacation".

114 so.cal.swede  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:43:52am

re: #105 storagemanager

yep. they want chaos, but they want to make sure the world is against the US in this chaos.

115 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:44:21am

Let's just wait till they get a nuke and use it...we need to be sure they are a danger first.

116 rorschach  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:44:59am

Naturally, the MSM is obfuscating. No mention of the verbal threat, and deliberate uncertainty over who was driving the attack boats.

If we had opened fire, I'm sure we'd have killed innocent women and children...on a holiday outing.

117 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:45:13am

re: #114 so.cal.swede

re: #105 storagemanager

yep. they want chaos, but they want to make sure the world is against the US in this chaos.


Most of the world already hates us.

118 ibmkeyboard  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:45:17am

re: #80 storagemanager


241 dead marines in Lebanon...


The Navy should have blown their asses out of the water,
In memory of our dead Marines.

/ but it will happen again and pay back will come.

119 looking closely  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:45:23am

re: #65 Honorary Yooper

re: #38 jcm

re: #1 bigdicksplace

re: #2 Wisenheimer

You don't shoot just because they are being provocative.
The Iranians wanted an incident. We didn't oblige.

The trick is to get the Iranians to shoot first, not us. If they shoot first, they will be the aggressors, and we'll just look like we were defending our ships. If we shoot first, Iran will scream bloody murder all over the world and in the UN.

Most certainly the trick is NOT to let hostile enemy get off the first shot if you can help it! If they come in making a threat, you hit them.

They'll scream "bloody murder" no matter WHO shoots first. Remember how they (falsely) claimed the kidnapped British soldiers strayed into Iranian waters?

These Iranians came right up to the red line and dangled their tippy toes across it. Not in any way an accident this was probably to measure American timing to see how we would respond.

120 The_Vig  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:45:31am

Maybe the Democrats will call for the condemnations of the Iranians because of the pollution of the waters.

121 so.cal.swede  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:45:54am

re: #117 storagemanager

re: #114 so.cal.swede

re: #105 storagemanager

yep. they want chaos, but they want to make sure the world is against the US in this chaos.


Most of the world already hates us.

I think you're wrong.

122 godfrey  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:45:55am

re: #111 Occasional Reader

There's peace, and then there's "peace." Surely the Gulf is a "place of tension," or something?

123 Maine's Michael  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:46:29am

If I were Dubya and Condi, I'd get over to Israel and hammer on Olmert to give up Jerusalem and stop those nasty condo developments in ancestral Jewish lands immediately, before this thing with the Iranians gets out of hand.

124 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:46:42am

re: #105 storagemanager

re: #96 EC Marm

re: #88 storagemanager


People crack me up...Iran is waiting for the Mahdi to appear...he will only come if Chaos reins in the world...The President of Iran said at the U.N. please come soon...and some of you think they don't want a war...too funny.


Come on, storage. If they wanted a war, they would have had one today. It's ankle biting.


It's the same way wars in the past were started...there is nothing new under the sun.

I think that anklebiting gives the people who are always against any military action cover. If we blow up a couple crappy little boats, the left here will immediately cry fowl, about how they were only being provacative at worst. I would like to blow them out of the water, but our government needs better cover then that to engage in a war with Iran.

125 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:47:32am

re: #121 so.cal.swede

re: #117 storagemanager


re: #114 so.cal.swede

re: #105 storagemanager

yep. they want chaos, but they want to make sure the world is against the US in this chaos.


Most of the world already hates us.

I think you're wrong.


So we got that U.N. vote on Iran?...sorry I didn't see it.

126 Shug  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:47:36am

re: #113 Diamond Bullet

Perhaps they thought we were just the British Navy, there to drop off another dozen royal marines for "vacation".


Omar, we need another dozen Borat Suits!

127 pat  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:47:48am

One report said the vessels were 200 yards off. That is WAY to close. These boats should have been sent to Allah.

128 Maine's Michael  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:48:06am

Or perhaps commission a new NIE report, showing the Iranians were just speedboat practicing for the races off of Ft. Lauderdale next August.

129 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:48:23am

re: #106 Carl in Jerusalem

And you really think they're going to rely on the US after incidents like this? I would think incidents like this would push them towards a rapprochement with the Iranians.


Well, I remember this. When push comes to shove, the U.S. Navy and Air Force can punish the Iranians within hours using conventional forces like no other country on the planet. I can't see the Sauds seeing this any differently than I do. The Iranian mosquito fleet huffing and puffing, then turning tail and running away.

130 NoSubmission  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:48:27am

VIDEO
Here's a Ron Paul moment.

131 Golem Akbar  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:48:32am

One of the problems with Iran is that the majority of its citizens are moderate/secular Moslems, and do not support the clerical leaders of that country. The west is not doing enough to give these people support. They want democracy. It is the minority who are Islamists, radicals, and want war with the Great Satan, and wish to destroy the Little Satan (Israel).

132 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:48:40am

re: #124 coquimbojoe

re: #105 storagemanager


re: #96 EC Marm

re: #88 storagemanager

People crack me up...Iran is waiting for the Mahdi to appear...he will only come if Chaos reins in the world...The President of Iran said at the U.N. please come soon...and some of you think they don't want a war...too funny.

Come on, storage. If they wanted a war, they would have had one today. It's ankle biting.

It's the same way wars in the past were started...there is nothing new under the sun.

I think that anklebiting gives the people who are always against any military action cover. If we blow up a couple crappy little boats, the left here will immediately cry fowl, about how they were only being provacative at worst. I would like to blow them out of the water, but our government needs better cover then that to engage in a war with Iran.

Let's just wait till they get a nuke and use it...we need to be sure they are a danger first

133 Canadian Guy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:48:54am

re: #22 mean Gene

If dems win and we haven't dealt with the Iranians yet, they will own the Straits of Hormuz!
And if we do deal with them the dems will say it is a manufactured event.
We've got to stop dems from framing the foreign policy.

Gulf of Tonkin. GOOGLE IT, PEOPLE! GOOGLE IT!

/rosie

134 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:49:19am

re: #122 godfrey

re: #111 Occasional Reader

There's peace, and then there's "peace." Surely the Gulf is a "place of tension," or something?

All the more reason to have a clearly-announced "you come within XX yards and we fire". Remember, the Straits of Hormuz are busy shipping lanes, USN ships can't just arbitrarily push out their shoot-to-kill line without telling anyone.

135 Wisenheimer  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:49:32am

re: #102 tfc3rid

How about this thought...

Hillary pulls out... Al Gore enters... Discuss...

Thanks for ruining breakfast.

136 BabbaZee  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:49:52am

I said on the DT, there is no way we will engage Iran while the President is on his way to Gazastan to help give Jerusalem away to the Beasts.

137 ackomanyuki  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:49:54am

re: #7 Dar ul Harb

Five small boats began charging the U.S. ships, dropping boxes in the water in front of the ships and forcing the U.S. ships to take evasive maneuvers, the Pentagon official said.

Oh, look. Presents!

Presents indeed! This must be the result of the Pentagon's dropping to its knees and fellating the Jihadists by kicking their best sharia law analyst to the curb. Yup, the Iranians were giving out presents in a reciprocal gesture of good will just in time for the e Orthodox Church's Christmas celebration.

138 looking closely  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:50:06am

re: #127 pat

One report said the vessels were 200 yards off. That is WAY to close. These boats should have been sent to Allah.

Probably 10 seconds later they would have been, if not sooner.

Looks like a test run. . .how close can we get. Like counting coup.

139 Golem Akbar  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:50:07am

re: #117 storagemanager

re: #114 so.cal.swede


re: #105 storagemanager

yep. they want chaos, but they want to make sure the world is against the US in this chaos.


Most of the world already hates us.

I don't think the people of the world hate us, just their leaders. I think most people would give anything to live in the west, and especially in the US.

140 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:50:48am
141 ggt  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:50:48am

re: #121 so.cal.swede

They resent us --they way a little moderately successful brother resents his older very successful brother.

It's just worse because we are the younger country --rogues who dared to think for themselves.

142 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:50:53am

re: #136 BabbaZee

I said on the DT, there is no way we will engage Iran while the President is on his way to Gazastan to help give Jerusalem away to the Beasts.

And next year Iran can nuke what is left of Israel.

143 BabbaZee  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:51:11am

re: #138 looking closely

It is exactly counting coup

144 kirche  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:51:31am

perhaps the ships' delay in firing was due to negotiations with the muslims at the pentagon over the most respectful course of action.

and then they had to tie in condi on a conference call to be sure not to disrupt the peace plan.

thankfully, the iranian boats were just probing... this time.

145 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:51:56am

re: #132 storagemanager

I feel the same way you do. I am frustrated by political expediency getting in the way of necessity. I think engagement (the kind that goes boom) with Iran is necessary, and the sooner the better in the long run. It will be way too late for use when they do have the 'bomb'.

146 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:52:17am

re: #139 Golem Akbar

re: #117 storagemanager


re: #114 so.cal.swede

re: #105 storagemanager
yep. they want chaos, but they want to make sure the world is against the US in this chaos.

Most of the world already hates us.

I don't think the people of the world hate us, just their leaders. I think most people would give anything to live in the west, and especially in the US.


It is the leaders that count...the folks don't vote at the U.N...America and Israel were left hanging in the wind.

147 Carl in Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:52:34am

re: #123 Maine's Michael

If I were Dubya and Condi, I'd get over to Israel and hammer on Olmert to give up Jerusalem and stop those nasty condo developments in ancestral Jewish lands immediately, before this thing with the Iranians gets out of hand.

They'll be here on Wednesday. Is that soon enough for you?

My daughters may have school canceled on Wednesday because they figure it's going to be impossible to get around the city...

148 Salem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:52:37am

re: #92 BabbaZee

Way cool! The Day the Earth Stood Still music is probably my favorite use of the theremin. Hauntingly beautiful. Bernard Hermann, if I recall correctly.

149 BabbaZee  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:52:44am

re: #142 storagemanager

Why are you yelling at me?
I know perfectly well what is at stake here.
Calm down.

150 toadbelly  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:52:46am

The Iranians have played this game before- its a means of provoking a reaction to see how the US Navy will respond.

Although I'm surprised the Persians were able to row out of the way before our ships ran 'um over.

151 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:53:29am

re: #107 Right Turn Clyde

re: #87 EC Marm

In 88 the line for warning shots was 1000 yards, weapons free was 500 yards if on an intercept course. Seems we need to revert to that policy.


The only problem is the Iranians are basically driving around in civilian pleasure/speed boats. How are we to know what the intentions of Abdul are? Maybe he's only out for a little run around the Gulf with his wife and kids?
Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved if the U.S. Navy had splattered the water in front of the fools with a couple thousand rounds.

152 Gumby  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:53:55am

re: #102 tfc3rid

How about this thought...

Hillary pulls out... Al Gore enters... Discuss...

Huma Abedin would be violated?

153 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:54:38am
Counting coup was a battle practice of Native Americans of the Great Plains.

And look how well it worked out for them.

154 Athos  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:55:00am

This is just another example of the simple fact that so many D's and an number of so-called R's refuse to accept - that regardless of the actions of the US - there are some nations and some non-state organizations that intend to use bullying, intimidation, and force to obtain what they want to obtain. One can either stand up to them or one can back down.

Which would deter the aggressor from further uses of force to achieve their goals? (Of course, I also just realized that to these same pinheads, the fact that the US Navy was there probably makes us the 'aggressor'.)

The Iranian regime has been at war with this country since November 1978.

155 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:55:07am

re: #147 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #123 Maine's Michael


If I were Dubya and Condi, I'd get over to Israel and hammer on Olmert to give up Jerusalem and stop those nasty condo developments in ancestral Jewish lands immediately, before this thing with the Iranians gets out of hand.

They'll be here on Wednesday. Is that soon enough for you?

My daughters may have school canceled on Wednesday because they figure it's going to be impossible to get around the city...

I wish he wasn't going...it isn't right...I feel so sorry for you guy's.

156 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:55:57am
157 Captain Jack  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:56:08am

Sadly Democrats attempt to appear "reasonable" and "diplomatic" in order to appeal to the squemish and uninformed domestic audience is interpreted as weakness by dictators. Its like the dems attempts to deal with crime. If only we tried harder to understand them and help them then the problems would decline. Dems and their socialism think they can defy human nature.

158 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:56:29am

re: #149 BabbaZee

re: #142 storagemanager

Why are you yelling at me?
I know perfectly well what is at stake here.
Calm down.


I was agreeing with you...I am sorry if I posted it wrong.

159 BabbaZee  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:56:30am
160 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:56:48am

re: #102 tfc3rid

How about this thought...

Hillary pulls out... Al Gore enters... Discuss...

Nah, Al's got a pretty good schtick going, why ruin it by another failed run at the White House? The suckers are still buying his Gorebal Warming bunkum.

161 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:56:53am

re: #102 tfc3rid

How about this thought...

Hillary pulls out... Al Gore enters... Discuss...

The vision that that invokes just totally creeps me out.

162 BabbaZee  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:58:14am

re: #158 storagemanager

Okay then.
You seem a little tense is all...
;~}

163 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:58:34am

re: #161 Ward Cleaver

re: #102 tfc3rid


How about this thought...

Hillary pulls out... Al Gore enters... Discuss...


The vision that that invokes just totally creeps me out.

YEESH... oh you had to bring that up, now didn't you...

164 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:58:36am

re: #125 storagemanager

re: #121 so.cal.swede

re: #117 storagemanager


re: #114 so.cal.swede


re: #105 storagemanageryep. they want chaos, but they want to make sure the world is against the US in this chaos.


Most of the world already hates us.


I think you're wrong.


So we got that U.N. vote on Iran?...sorry I didn't see it.

Well, when you separate the people of the world from their governments, or the UN, I think most of the people like us.

165 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:59:02am

We can deal with Iran now...or wait for millions to die...they have stated the intent.

166 Right Turn Clyde  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:59:04am

re: #151 EC Marm

re: #107 Right Turn Clyde


re: #87 EC Marm

In 88 the line for warning shots was 1000 yards, weapons free was 500 yards if on an intercept course. Seems we need to revert to that policy.


The only problem is the Iranians are basically driving around in civilian pleasure/speed boats. How are we to know what the intentions of Abdul are? Maybe he's only out for a little run around the Gulf with his wife and kids?
Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved if the U.S. Navy had splattered the water in front of the fools with a couple thousand rounds.

Yeah, I know they used to use Boston Whalers, don't know what they use today. The guy in the bow with the RPG or LMG is usually a dead giveaway though.

167 grumpy_old_soldier  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:59:56am

Aw, geewillickers, Mom, couldn't I have sunk just one?

168 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:59:58am
169 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:01:17am

re: #162 BabbaZee

re: #158 storagemanager

Okay then.
You seem a little tense is all...
;~}


I am...Iran is building a nuke to use on Israel...and no one is stopping them...Going to the Middle East and shaking hands will not stop it.

170 godfrey  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:01:40am

re: #134 Occasional Reader

I slouch corrected. Still, perhaps there should be more of a burden placed on the bad guys to find out what our rules are. We can tell the good guys ourselves. Post the rules, but make the bad guys go look for them. If they make a mistake, *boom*, and we can say, "we put 'em out there, and you chose to ignore them. Please accept our heartfelt condolences, etc., &c."

171 Ben Hur  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:02:04am

“we’re coming at you...”

Is where it should've ended.

F*ck this "International incident" BS.

What kind of "international incident?"

172 littleO  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:02:15am

The iranians will try to drive up oil prices at any opportunity. Provoking the navy is extreme. I can see them provoking and incident, claiming their rights and calling on the worldfor sympathy.
I supposing we had divers in the water immediately to find what was in the boxes.
We should make terms of engagement clear to naval commanders in writing and doublely clear to Iran. We should keep strict radar fixes on all shipping movements using strict timed movement mapping with satellite confermation when possible. Keeping track of true locations of shipping is very important. President Bush should call brief neccesary members of congress so their can be no false claims of inoppropriate actions in hindsight.
This incident is probably nothing but Iranian bravado. But, it could be otherwise. We need to be extremely professional, especially in our diplomatic efforts. We need all ducks in a row, tie up loose ends and document actions with congressional leaders, through writing and recordings.

173 keyword  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:03:06am

I wonder if the Iranians know how close they came to becoming plankton food. The Navy has clear rules of engagement, and for us to question the commanders involved is rather silly. A few gunboats against US warships?
Booohahahahha!

174 godfrey  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:03:07am

re: #156 buzzsawmonkey

Excellent points. Also, the EU is only 50 years old. "EUropeans" are pikers!

175 Athos  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:03:19am

re: #151 EC Marm

re: #107 Right Turn Clyde


re: #87 EC Marm

In 88 the line for warning shots was 1000 yards, weapons free was 500 yards if on an intercept course. Seems we need to revert to that policy.


The only problem is the Iranians are basically driving around in civilian pleasure/speed boats. How are we to know what the intentions of Abdul are? Maybe he's only out for a little run around the Gulf with his wife and kids?
Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved if the U.S. Navy had splattered the water in front of the fools with a couple thousand rounds.


I agree. The ROE are there for a purpose. The US and no naval commander in the area wants another incident like the USS Vincennes shoot down of a civilian airliner on a threatening flight track. We also know that our enemies in the area have absolutely no hesitation to hide amongst or use civilians as shields in order to project their agenda. We have decided to accept the risk of possible losses in the event the attack was real.

I also do agree with your earlier observation of the ROE from 1988 - there is no reason why any uninvited vessal should be permitted within 500-1000 yards of any US Navy warship without at least warning shots fired across the bows.

176 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:04:23am

re: #166 Right Turn Clyde
The boats are described as being of this style. Fast as hell. Pretty useless for anything except getting around fast, making a lot of noise, and running away.

177 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:04:24am

re: #5 DistantThunder

"You don't trod on Superman's cape,"
"You don't spit in the wind."
"You don't pull the mack off the ole Lone Ranger,
And you don't mess around with Bush."

I wonder what that sounds like in Iranian (persian?)

Hmmm... in French it's "reddition, reddition"

178 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:04:28am

re: #172 littleO

The iranians will try to drive up oil prices at any opportunity. Provoking the navy is extreme. I can see them provoking and incident, claiming their rights and calling on the worldfor sympathy.
I supposing we had divers in the water immediately to find what was in the boxes.
We should make terms of engagement clear to naval commanders in writing and doublely clear to Iran. We should keep strict radar fixes on all shipping movements using strict timed movement mapping with satellite confermation when possible. Keeping track of true locations of shipping is very important. President Bush should call brief neccesary members of congress so their can be no false claims of inoppropriate actions in hindsight.
This incident is probably nothing but Iranian bravado. But, it could be otherwise. We need to be extremely professional, especially in our diplomatic efforts. We need all ducks in a row, tie up loose ends and document actions with congressional leaders, through writing and recordings.


And if Israel gets bombed while we line them up...so what!

179 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:04:59am

re: #96 EC Marm

They want to be cast as the victims - so they'll seek to initiate a conflict, but appear as though they're not the ones firing the first shot.

The mullahs are playing a very dangerous game, and the geopolitical implications are multifold. The leftists here would scream bloody hell because they think that Bush is trying to start a war with Iran - ignoring all the Iranian actions that show that they've been at war with the US since 1979. The UN would seek to stop the conflict because the Russians and Chinese have much to gain by seeing the US get taken down a notch - and the Chinese need the Strait of Hormuz to remain open for their thirst for oil.

The US doesn't necessarily want to show the Iranians tactics that we have in dealing with the Iranian threat - so under the current ROE blowing the boats out of the water wasn't really an option, though a popular one it would be here. The Iranians might not be so lucky that the US shows restraint the next time. They might find themselves without Natanz or Bushehr. After all, you go after the Navy, and the Navy will go after targets of opportunity and strategic importance. The Iranians have been busy claiming that they've got new weapons and the US might take the opportunity to school 'em on how to pick up the pieces after the US smokes 'em.

Of course, all that is set with the price of oil in the background, and a conflict in the Gulf could send oil through the roof - if you think mid $90s is bad, a conflict could send the price into the stratosphere, and the Administration knows that there are limits as to what the US economy (and the world economy can absorb in a price jump).

Restraint was probably the right thing to do in this instance, but the Navy commanders might not be so inclined the next time. It's not the result of the next engagement that worries me - it's the blowback.

180 Salem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:05:28am

re: #159 BabbaZee

re: #148 Salem

Hermann was a genius

Miklos Rosza too

No arguments there!

181 Ben Hur  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:07:40am

Unless of course it was a Red October surprise and they were really dropping off top secret material about Iran nuke program!

All an elaborate ruse, you see.

If we meet the right sort, this will work. We get some buckaroo...

/Captain Mohammed Ramius

182 D'kian_  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:07:42am

The Navy could use a faster trigger finger.

183 godfrey  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:08:25am

Higher oil prices = more money to Saud, Wahhab, & Sons, Inc.

184 realwest  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:08:55am

Oh yeah! Hillary pulls out, Gore enters and it's Gore and Edwards for the Dem's.
Ya know, if at first you don't succeed...!

185 Ben Hur  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:09:42am
186 pat  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:09:50am

This is why they should have been blasted.
[Link: www.voanews.com...]

I have seen video of this torpedo. I am highly suspect. But at 200 yards no one could miss, and we don't have anything that can stop it at that short distance.

187 ggt  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:10:18am

re: #168 buzzsawmonkey

conventional red herring.

/I don't think red herrings are "endangered species" or in anyway threatened by LCC (loose climate change) or hirabah (isnt' that the new word we are suppossed to be using?)

188 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:10:24am

re: #174 godfrey

re: #156 buzzsawmonkey

Excellent points. Also, the EU is only 50 years old. "EUropeans" are pikers!

A similar point came to mind 4 or 5 years ago when some Euro "thinker" (a German I believe) made a statement about how "we Europeans have created a zone of peace that has lasted 50 years, you Americans should do the same" or something to that effect. Breaking down his declaration:

1) By "Europeans", he must have meant EU, because Bosnia (for instance) hasn't exactly been a zone of peace.

2)... but not even the entire EU, because the Czechs and Hungarians had some fairly serious peace interruption within that half-century... so I guess he meant the "western" EU.

3) And I guess he's excluding uses of force by the western EU, but carried out outside of the western EU (UK in Falklands, France in Algeria, Portugal in Angola, etc.).

4) And I guess he's also excluding paramilitary operations carried out against internal terrorism (UK armed forces vs. IRA, Spanish vs. ETA, etc.)

5) So, in a nutshell, his statement meant: "We haven't had an interstate war between western EU members for half a century."

Which is very nice. But we haven't had an interstate war within the US for 140 years or so; or with either of our neighbors for about 160 years. So, Euros, keep up the good work for at least another half-century or two, and we'll start to be really impressed!

189 Canadian Guy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:11:25am

re: #102 tfc3rid

How about this thought...

Hillary pulls out... Al Gore enters... Discuss...

"The only way Hillary leaves the race is in a straight jacket." Rush Limbaugh on the Drugde rumour.

190 Kenneth  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:11:34am

Consider this scenario:

A US Marine walks into a bar and orders a drink. Suddenly, a puny punk walks up and starts to threaten the Marine. The Marine rolls up his sleaves, gives the punk a hard look and tells him to bugger off or else. The punk runs away, and the Marine relaxes and enjoys his drink.

Question:
Did the Marine "stand down" because he decided not to immediately flatten the punk? Or did the punk lose the confrontaion because he ran away?

The US Navy did not "stand down" to the Iranians in the Straits of Hormuz.

191 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:11:41am
192 littleO  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:12:26am

re: #87 EC Marm

The iranians have weapons that can close 200 yards real fast.

193 Athos  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:12:29am

re: #173 keyword

I wonder if the Iranians know how close they came to becoming plankton food. The Navy has clear rules of engagement, and for us to question the commanders involved is rather silly. A few gunboats against US warships?
Booohahahahha!

At 30 knots, a speedboat can cover 900 yards in a minute. It takes about 13 seconds to cover 200 knots. Can the ship / personnel / systems react in 13 seconds, acquire, and destroy the target before it crashes into the ship like the USS Cole? The Cole was almost lost.

Our willingness to define the ROE as it is accepts some casualties. Clearly 200 yards is far too close to permit a bogey to approach. But the goal of the Iranians here was not to attack. The goal was to provoke a response from the USN - a response that would be used by a hostile state to damage the US and inflate oil prices.

One has to decide - do we let a state that has been at war with us since 1978 continue with these provocations and embolden them further, or do we spend a few days sending a very strong message about their ability to 'project' force on the seas.

194 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:12:51am

This is a Wiki on the style of boats the Iranians are using. An excerpt:

These boats are difficult to detect by radar except on flat calm seas or at close range. The United States Coast Guard and the DEA found them to be stealthy, fast, seaworthy, and very difficult to intercept using conventional craft.
195 RememberSekhmet?  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:13:14am

re: #55 jcm

Folks remember the Vincennes?

US Navy was in a little shooting match with Iranian gunboats. Then a plane pops up with a Iranian F-14 IFF transponder, and Vincennes takes out the threat, turns to to have been an airliner. Iran wins the propaganda match on that one.

The Iranians were flying a pattern over the Vincennes where there would be a certain amount of F-14s and then some civilian airliners, repeat ad nauseam. The one Vincennes fired upon was not only carrying an F-14 transponder, it was in the F-14's place in the pattern.

196 samsgran1948  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:13:29am

re: #38 jcm

re: #1 bigdicksplace

re: #2 Wisenheimer

You don't shoot just because they are being provocative.
The Iranians wanted an incident. We didn't oblige.

Elections are coming up soon in Iran. Even though Dinnerjacket is not up for reelection this round, these elections are being seen as a referendum on his presidency. He could lose a lot of his personal supporters in the Iranian parliament or whatever they call their rubber stamp.

I strongly suspect Dinnerjacket is trying to force a fight with the US to bolster his position at home.

While it galls me to see the US back away from the little shit, I think it's the right thing to do -- unless he really gets out of line.

197 BabbaZee  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:14:30am

re: #169 storagemanager

Nothing we scream will stop it now.
Fear is unbelief, and the I Me Mine, the carnal notion that somehow we can control the situation.

We are watching a show at this point.
I do relax to a degree, as nuts as that sounds... but only because I know that no amount of me railing against it to the men and the gods of this world will stop it now.

I know my refuge, I will know how to survive when the world system collapses, I am afraid of nothing, I will be delivered.

I gotta go
WLGF out

198 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:15:10am

re: #193 Athos

At 30 knots, a speedboat can cover 900 yards in a minute. It takes about 13 seconds to cover 200 knots. Can the ship / personnel / systems react in 13 seconds, acquire, and destroy the target before it crashes into the ship like the USS Cole?

Gah, I had these math "word problems".

But my guess is "yes", 13 seconds would be ample time.

Clearly, if we were in a shooting war with Iran, things would be different. But this is all about doing any shooting on our timetable, not theirs.

199 marge45b  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:15:55am

GO NAVY! Remember the USS Cole bombing in 2000 under Clinton? Well, it ain't going to happen with W. Blast them Iranian's out of the Gulf!

200 ggt  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:16:22am

re: #188 Occasional Reader

EU Peace:
Our citizens can't have guns;
We've legislated non-violence;
Therefore we are at peace.

Add to that:

When Carbon Credits are the basis of our ecomony, the Earth will be prosperous.

201 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:17:32am

re: #112 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #63 harrylook

Hmm. Didn't realize the shia were into suicide like the sunni...

In the Iran - Iraq war, the suicide bombers all came from Iran.

Sure. Who was going to die that way for Saddam? He knew they'd surrender if it was that or death.

202 Athos  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:18:01am

re: #191 buzzsawmonkey

re: #174 godfrey


re: #156 buzzsawmonkey

Excellent points. Also, the EU is only 50 years old. "EUropeans" are pikers!


Fact is, we've managed to keep the nation together and grow under one Constitution, despite a nasty and divisive and bloody civil war, for longer, with less lasting damage, and without foreign domination than any nation currently in existence, with the exception of Britain, Switzerland, Sweden, and perhaps one or two other small nations.

Rather than being considered the raw, unsophisticated newbies that the Europeans, in particular, persist in considering us, we might well start pointing out that the other newbie nations of the world have a lot to learn from us.

That would require a State Department that believes it's role is to follow the direction and policy set by the Chief Executive and that includes promoting the cause and viewpoints of the United States to others. Unfortunately, given the size of the disease 'clientitis' - most of our State Department see their role as explaining the viewpoints of the other countries to us.

203 godfrey  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:18:02am

re: #191 buzzsawmonkey

Quelle ironie.

204 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:18:10am

re: #196 samsgran1948

re: #38 jcm


re: #1 bigdicksplace

re: #2 Wisenheimer

You don't shoot just because they are being provocative.
The Iranians wanted an incident. We didn't oblige.


Elections are coming up soon in Iran. Even though Dinnerjacket is not up for reelection this round, these elections are being seen as a referendum on his presidency. He could lose a lot of his personal supporters in the Iranian parliament or whatever they call their rubber stamp.

I strongly suspect Dinnerjacket is trying to force a fight with the US to bolster his position at home.

While it galls me to see the US back away from the little shit, I think it's the right thing to do -- unless he really gets out of line.


The Supreme Leader of Iran is the boss..too many forget that fact. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

205 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:19:15am

The Iranians broadcast a clear warning, and should have been blown out of the water.
They'll keep doing this, and sometime, they'll drop bombs or small boats with bombers. And they might do it to a tanker instead. $1000/barrel oil anyone?
Once they made the threat, we should have responded.

206 Kenneth  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:19:52am

re: #194 EC Marm

The Iranian speedboats are not capable of carrying the Shkval type torpedoes. Yes, they have fast dangerous torpedoes. Yes, they have fast speedboats. But they don't have those torpedoes on those speedboats.

207 littleO  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:20:22am

re: #178 storagemanager

re: #172 littleO


The iranians will try to drive up oil prices at any opportunity. Provoking the navy is extreme. I can see them provoking and incident, claiming their rights and calling on the worldfor sympathy.
I supposing we had divers in the water immediately to find what was in the boxes.
We should make terms of engagement clear to naval commanders in writing and doublely clear to Iran. We should keep strict radar fixes on all shipping movements using strict timed movement mapping with satellite confermation when possible. Keeping track of true locations of shipping is very important. President Bush should call brief neccesary members of congress so their can be no false claims of inoppropriate actions in hindsight.
This incident is probably nothing but Iranian bravado. But, it could be otherwise. We need to be extremely professional, especially in our diplomatic efforts. We need all ducks in a row, tie up loose ends and document actions with congressional leaders, through writing and recordings.

And if Israel gets bombed while we line them up...so what!

These things can be done today. I' m hopeful most are in place.
these Islamist are serious, intelligent and ruthless. !

208 edfeeney  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:20:33am

I can't help but think this mighty Navy of ours is nothing but an embarrassment. I guess were lucky that they didn't capture our 3 ships. Why those Iranian boats are still afloat and those men are still alive is beyond comprehenson. What those turds pulled should have been regarded as an attack on our ships. But our a$$-hole Navy must have thought those packages were X-mas presents and to here radio transmissions that your gonna be blown up in a few minutes plus scootin around our formation where we have to take evasive action. What does it take for our Navy to engage? Can you say USS Cole? After the Cole its unthinkable that you would let small craft near you AGAIN. Hell these little turds boarded and captured 15 Limeys a few months ago. Our embarrassing Navy let a Chinese diesel sub surface in the middle of an attack group last yr. Can you believe that? A diesel, we should hhave heard that when it left port in China. These incidents remind me of 30 yrs ago when Saddam slams a missle into the side of a frigate. It shoulldn't have happened but the Aegis system was turned off. Then later on they shot a Iranian airliner out of the sky. Would it hurt the Navy that when your in a war zone maybe to place 1 man 24/7 on at least 1 50 cal, locked and loaded and maybe we can avoid some of these embarrasing incidents. The worst part of this is these incidents carry a lot of weight in the ME. It'll be looked at as Iran faced off with us and we blinked.

209 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:20:53am

Message from lead U.S. navy ship to nearest Iranian shore base:

"Your boats are gone. Thanks for the target practice. Send more, we love live-fire exercises.

With Love,

John Paul Jones, Captain, USS Fuckedupyourprogram."

210 Athos  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:22:14am

re: #198 Occasional Reader

re: #193 Athos


At 30 knots, a speedboat can cover 900 yards in a minute. It takes about 13 seconds to cover 200 knots. Can the ship / personnel / systems react in 13 seconds, acquire, and destroy the target before it crashes into the ship like the USS Cole?

Gah, I had these math "word problems".

But my guess is "yes", 13 seconds would be ample time.

Clearly, if we were in a shooting war with Iran, things would be different. But this is all about doing any shooting on our timetable, not theirs.

I don't know. 13 seconds is not much time. I would hope so. I would hope that the weapons would be unmasked, out of standby (CIWS), and only needing one last command to open fire.

This reminds me far too much of the provocations that led up to the Vincennes shoot down of the airliner. Of course, those same provocations also led to some counters that led to Iran losing several of their large frigates and a number of offshore oil platforms. At some point, we will need to stop thinking about the propaganda effects against us and send a message that if they want to keep pulling the tiger's tail, they will eventually have to deal with the teeth.

211 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:22:35am

re: #198 Occasional Reader

I'd expect that the ROE in the Gulf at this time means that the CIWS are prepared to engage targets close in at a moment's notice. The Iranians might manage to fire off a shot, but would be their first and only.

212 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:23:20am

re: #131 Golem Akbar

One of the problems with Iran is that the majority of its citizens are moderate/secular Moslems, and do not support the clerical leaders of that country. The west is not doing enough to give these people support. They want democracy. It is the minority who are Islamists, radicals, and want war with the Great Satan, and wish to destroy the Little Satan (Israel).

Probably true, but if I were Iranian, I wouldn't trust the US's support. If the Dems win, they'll get thrown to the mullahs.
And someone mentioned the evacuation of Saigon yesterday; this goes back further, to the Bay of Pigs. We blew our trustworthiness years ago, and haven't built it back.

213 M. Bensson-Levi  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:23:55am

O/T, but check out this HITPIECE on the HILLDABEAST, by the WaPO!

THEY HAVE TURNED ON HER!

She must be gagging in RAGE, LOL!

214 Promethea  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:24:51am

re: #4 rawmuse

They are testing our resolve. If we don't face them down, we lose. It really is that simple. This little exercise should be expensive, to them.

Just starting this thread, but I see that you agree with my first thought which was these revolutionary guard boats should all have been destroyed. Then the diplomats could do their thing.

The United States needs to be more aggressive when incidents like these occur. In the long run, lives would be saved. Whatever the revolutionary guards thought they were doing, they shouldn't have been allowed to continue.

Then Condi and her state dept friends could do their talking thing and earn their pay.

215 realwest  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:25:35am

re: #193 Athos Hello my friend! Um, the USS Cole was tied up at a dock in a supposedly friendly nation. Al-Q suicied bombed it. Totally different from Navy ships in the sea, on guard 24/7 and yes, the close-in Gattling gun system (who's name I can't recall) would have vaporized those speedboats in a nanosecond. And, IIRC, especially in the waters in and around the Straits of Hormuz, the US Navy is always "ready" - especially the close in gatling guns (30mm, iirc) system who's name I can't freakin recall (I HATE these senior moments!)!

216 AuntAcid  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:25:57am

Iran Provokes US Navy

Damn the boxes. Full speed ahead.

217 godfrey  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:26:30am

Flip Iran one happy day
Then have our way with KSA
Sound off ...

218 Pantera  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:27:03am

I can gaurantee that some moonbat, on some blog, will claim this as a Gulf of Tonkin-like scenerio.

Also, can you imagine how terrified the crew must have been? Either you go down like the USS Cole, or you go down in history as the ship that started the Third Persian Gulf War. Not a very good choice.

219 RememberSekhmet?  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:27:36am

Hitting Iran right now may not be worth it if it results in the United States electing someone who won't follow through. The war with Iran would last well beyond January 20 of next year, and another war may be all that is needed to revive the worst elements of the "antiwar" movement, and skew the Presidential primaries towards people who may not be serious about follow-through.

Iran is our best chance to sweep the boards when it comes to the Middle East. If we play this right, there will be a while lot of our problem children in that region who will find themselves up the proverbial creek without a paddle. Part of a war on an idea is to convince its adherents that rescue isn't coming. If Iran is no longer going to kick them a few dollars or IED parts anymore, what's going to happen to a whole lot of terrorism in the Middle East?

220 Salem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:27:58am

My nephew goes into the Navy this month. As a combat diver.

221 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:30:16am

re: #90 kentuckyjoe

If there were any Tail Hooks around, we could charge them with Sexual Harrassment.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Viggo Mortenson is supporting Dennis "UFOELF" Kucinich.

No! Say it ain't so, Aragorn!

You have ruined my evening.

222 Kenneth  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:30:19am

re: #208 edfeeney

It'll be looked at as Iran faced off with us and we blinked.

BULLSHIT.

The Iranians ran away. The US Navy continued on course. Clearly, the Iranians blinked while the US Navy decided not to fall for the sucker punch.

223 selpaw  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:31:00am
No doubt emboldened by the weakness of the Democratic candidates for president (and some of the Republicans too),

The world has emboldened Iran. Having said that however I feel a bit of a spin going on here because for the last almost 8 years George Bush has been commander and chief.

Why talk about the influence of weak candidates on both sides of the isle when it is clear Bush has backed out of his doctrine thus greatly diminishing the influence of his office.

Face it, our arch enemy Iran, our good friends in the war on terror the Saudis and our good friends in the war on terror Egypt as well as our supposed enemy Syria who got a big walloping invite to the Annapolis sham from a conservative administration get away with mocking and provoking us because they can.

By turning our back on their grievous crimes with at best a rare toothless condemnation and calling some of them our friends including the extreme whitewash of the Palestinians and their terrorist intentions simply serves to embolden them all.

We can deflect from it all we want and pass blame until hell freezes over but the guy sitting in the White House surely deserves a lions share of the blame.

224 Maine's Michael  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:31:06am

re: #147 Carl in Jerusalem

re: #123 Maine's Michael

If I were Dubya and Condi, I'd get over to Israel and hammer on Olmert to give up Jerusalem and stop those nasty condo developments in ancestral Jewish lands immediately, before this thing with the Iranians gets out of hand.

They'll be here on Wednesday. Is that soon enough for you?

My daughters may have school canceled on Wednesday because they figure it's going to be impossible to get around the city...

No, not soon enough.

Perhaps they should get on the phone and demand something from Olmert. Anything. A terrorist release. An end to actions in gaza. Perhaps suck up a few casualties from Kassam missiles.

A couple of crying Israeli mothers weeping over their injured schoolkids or destroyed homes will go a long way towards placating Iran.

225 Promethea  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:31:45am

re: #55 jcm

Folks remember the Vincennes?

US Navy was in a little shooting match with Iranian gunboats. Then a plane pops up with a Iranian F-14 IFF transponder, and Vincennes takes out the threat, turns to to have been an airliner. Iran wins the propaganda match on that one.

But what good did winning the propaganda match do them? So what if people are afraid of the U.S. Navy? They should be afraid.

226 Athos  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:32:18am

re: #215 realwest

Hi Real - hope you're doing well today.

I do hope you are right. I'm a little surprised that the ROE let them get into that close of a range - and I hope that everything and everyone would have worked as trained / drilled / practiced. Unfortunately, there are those CF moments when someone thinks a little too long, hesitates a little long, and the bad guy ends up inside the guard. The challenge with some of the point defense systems is that they may need to be unmasked in order to get a shot off - and I'm sure the bad guys studied their Jane's to see the arcs of fire...

I wouldn't rule out a spodleydope boat - even against a FFG or DDG at sea. There is no reason why they should get within 500 yards, but it seems as if the DOD is willing to accept an attack in order to avoid the political fallout.

227 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:32:24am

re: #221 American Jewess In Jerusalem

No! Say it ain't so, Aragorn!

"Aragorn" has been a moonbat from way back. He was bleating incessantly in 2003 about how WE were Mordor in attacking poor l'il Saddam. Looks like Viggo took his LotR cues from Wormtongue.

228 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:33:07am
229 EC Marm  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:33:55am

re: #208 edfeeney


I can't help but think this mighty Navy of ours is nothing but an embarrassment. I guess were lucky that they didn't capture our 3 ships.


A lightly armed speedboat that sits four feet above the water is going to capture a heavily armed and armored ship that sits thirty or more feet above the water? You think our sailors are going to drop a rope ladder down to Abdul and crew and help them board? Then surrender?

230 Kenneth  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:34:21am

re: #220 Salem

Congratulations and gratitude to your nephew and may God watch over him.

231 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:36:07am

re: #220 Salem

My nephew goes into the Navy this month. As a combat diver.

Good for him! Please thank him on our behalf for defending our country.

232 zerodamage  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:37:46am

Wow, the last thing you want to do is screw around with an Arleigh Burke based destroyer. Having been stationed on one of those destroyers, I can testify that they are no slouch when it comes to maneuvers and taking out an enemy. Since the USS Cole bombing (which was also a Arleigh Burke class Destoyer), the Navy is very weary of any small vessels getting too close. These things can handle most any type of attack including Chemical or Biological.

Arleigh Burke Class

233 samsgran1948  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:38:21am

re: #159 BabbaZee

Hans Zimmer is currently my Great Creator God of movie music. Howard Shore is just a small step below him.

234 Canadian Guy  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:39:37am

Looks like Duncan Hunter is pulling out.

Presser at 2 p.m

235 littleO  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:40:57am

re: #208 edfeeney

Your rant is deserved. But, we don't know exactly what happened.

236 M. Bensson-Levi  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:41:29am

re: #228 buzzsawmonkey

re: #213 M. Bensson-Levi

O/T, but check out this HITPIECE on the HILLDABEAST, by the WaPO!

THEY HAVE TURNED ON HER!

She must be gagging in RAGE, LOL!

Hillary was on NPR this morning. First question they asked her was whether she could "afford" to lose in NH.

Her long-winded answer was terrible. She should have said, "Of course I can afford to--but I don't believe I will (whether true or not), and of course I don't want to (making light of it)." That would have shown strength and confidence, whether or not justified.

Instead, she went into a lengthy explanation of why she thought she shouldn't, and why she was better than her opponents, which sounded panicky more than anything else--showing, by what she did not say and how she did not say it, that she was very, very worried and could not, in fact, afford to lose.

Flop sweat.

I think that the odds are that she will still get the nomination, but that she will go int the general election, greatly weakened, because of the glaring exposure of her shortcomings.

237 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:41:57am

re: #123 Maine's Michael

If I were Dubya and Condi, I'd get over to Israel and hammer on Olmert to give up Jerusalem and stop those nasty condo developments in ancestral Jewish lands immediately, before this thing with the Iranians gets out of hand.

Hear, hear! Don't let the Jews start WW III!


/do I really need a sarc tag?

238 Pickle  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:43:50am

re: #1 bigdicksplace

And we didn't sink those ships because?

For that matter, we didn't obliterate their entire navy and inform the Iranians that their belligerence has cost them their navy ownership rights because..?

239 TalkinKamel  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:48:33am

We should have sunk those ships. . .

240 realwest  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:49:02am

re: #226 Athos Yeah, I'd expect at least 500 meters, but who the hell knows?
Maybe we were hoping they'd actually attack so we could retaliate BIG TIME.

241 DanThePainter  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:49:06am

At Digg, moonbat poster Grampa changes the story a bit:

Just when the US needs an excuse for war with Iran, the evil Iranians supply us with one!
242 Owl  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:50:40am

suicide boaters.

bring it.


let's get this over with already.


Next time I hope we take decisive action and eleminate the threat. And by threat, I mean the whole of the Iranian military and political leadership.

243 Is it me?  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:52:19am

The Daily Mail has a piece on this, with pictures. The boat looks suspicious because the people look like they are wearing lifejackets - doesn't seem like the Rev. Guards, not macho enough.
null

The boats maybe small but they are fast and agile. You wouldn't want them suddenly charging a frigate and getting under the lowest angle the weapons could fire at them. Especially if they were filled with explosives.
Can't be too careful. A quick strafe across the bows should put them off.
These were warships. It's a completely different matter from them taking on a zodiac while people are disembarking. The Aussies almost got caught not that long ago, and the Shatt is a narrow waterway.
I hope the US Navy has a handy list of warnings in Farsi.

244 Athos  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:53:53am

re: #240 realwest

re: #226 Athos Yeah, I'd expect at least 500 meters, but who the hell knows?
Maybe we were hoping they'd actually attack so we could retaliate BIG TIME.

I think that was the plan. I expect them to continue these games just as they did in 1988 to provoke a response. It's pretty clear that they would love to see any of the 'D' and or RP to get the election win later this year. Their read is probably that any use of force by the US would result in a major hit to any of the major Republican candidates.

245 realwest  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:54:26am

re: #232 zerodamage Hey - what's the name of that Gatling gun system on those destroyers and do you know anything about their angel of fire?

246 RickZ  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:55:46am

re: #245 realwest

re: #232 zerodamage Hey - what's the name of that Gatling gun system on those destroyers and do you know anything about their angel of fire?

Tre Phalanx fire system.

247 realwest  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:56:25am

re: #232 zerodamage Ah you can forget part of my question in #245, it's the Phalanx system.

248 formercorpsman  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:56:26am

re: #208 edfeeney

All of our knee jerk reaction would be to blast them to kingdom come.

In all honesty, I don't think our Navy is operating with one eye shut in the Gulf, moreover the Straight, given what Iran did to the Brits recently.

What I would guarantee, is we are walking a very delicate diplomatic tightrope with the friendly islamic countries over there, and all of our efforts are measured in that regard.

I would also guarantee, anyone on-board old enough to remember 1979, Beirut, Higgins, are salivating at the prospect of retribution.

I have faith in our Navy. I would venture to say, the kids on the line right now are as good as we ever had, and Iran is gesticulating, hoping we have a trigger finger.

They are trying to flip their neighbors much in the way we flipped Anbar.

249 littleO  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:56:49am

re: #243 Is it me?

The Daily Mail has a piece on this, with pictures. The boat looks suspicious because the people look like they are wearing lifejackets - doesn't seem like the Rev. Guards, not macho enough.
null

The boats maybe small but they are fast and agile. You wouldn't want them suddenly charging a frigate and getting under the lowest angle the weapons could fire at them. Especially if they were filled with explosives.
Can't be too careful. A quick strafe across the bows should put them off.
These were warships. It's a completely different matter from them taking on a zodiac while people are disembarking. The Aussies almost got caught not that long ago, and the Shatt is a narrow waterway.
I hope the US Navy has a handy list of warnings in Farsi.

The news report said the actual shipping lanes were four miles wide.

250 Salem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:57:20am

re: #230 Kenneth

re: #220 Salem

Congratulations and gratitude to your nephew and may God watch over him.

re: #231 Occasional Reader

re: #220 Salem

My nephew goes into the Navy this month. As a combat diver.

Good for him! Please thank him on our behalf for defending our country.

Thank you. He's a great kid. I wish I was a better uncle and could express how much he impresses me. He was the sports star at his high school and the girls are crazy about him, yet not of the vanity that one might expect. He flew up to see his grandfather in October. He's going to be in for at least six years, so I suppose he wanted to spend time with him. My Dad is turning 86 next month, so I suppose he wondered how many more opportunities he would have to see him while he's still alive.

All the best, Zack...

251 realwest  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:57:45am

re: #246 RickZ Yeah, I finally remembered that - but do you know the angle of fire on it? I mean, can the destroyer use anything to fire down on a speedboat that's only 200 meters away?

252 bulwrk  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 10:32:07am

re: #251 realwest

50 cal

253 Is it me?  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 10:51:49am

#249 littleO
The incident with the American warships was in the Strait of Hormuz, the incident with the Brit and Aussie zodiacs was in the Shatt. I don't think I made myself very clear.
Sorry.
My link didn't work and then AOL went into meltdown - maybe it was the trouble with the LGF server. I'll give it another go.
null

254 rawmuse  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 10:53:02am

re: #215 realwest

re: #193 Athos Hello my friend! Um, the USS Cole was tied up at a dock in a supposedly friendly nation. Al-Q suicied bombed it. Totally different from Navy ships in the sea, on guard 24/7 and yes, the close-in Gattling gun system (who's name I can't recall) would have vaporized those speedboats in a nanosecond. And, IIRC, especially in the waters in and around the Straits of Hormuz, the US Navy is always "ready" - especially the close in gatling guns (30mm, iirc) system who's name I can't freakin recall (I HATE these senior moments!)!

Phalanx system?

255 New York's Michael  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 10:55:56am

The lesson that should be learned, next time fire faster and sink 'em.

256 Troika37  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 10:56:04am

re: #100 Occasional Reader

Because they've shown that they're only 'harassing.' From the time I spent onboard the Washington and the Kennedy, I know there is a 'bubble.' I also know there is a populace at home determined not to start a shooting war with Iran. Should we be provoked, it would be "Tonkin!" being screamed from the left. The last thing we need is one of these small gofasts coming close enough to do damage. The report states that several of them were 'visibly armed.' At 200 yards, that should be enough. At 199, it would have been.

257 FlyingTigress  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 10:59:28am

re: #256 Troika37

re: #100 Occasional Reader

Because they've shown that they're only 'harassing.' From the time I spent onboard the Washington and the Kennedy, I know there is a 'bubble.' I also know there is a populace at home determined not to start a shooting war with Iran. Should we be provoked, it would be "Tonkin!" being screamed from the left. The last thing we need is one of these small gofasts coming close enough to do damage. The report states that several of them were 'visibly armed.' At 200 yards, that should be enough. At 199, it would have been.

One of the first commenters -- a person self-identifying as being from Scotland -- in the newsreport in one British paper, already threw-out the "GULF OF TONKIN" bit.

258 keyword  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:01:10am

FlyingTigress -
Yeah, "Google it"!

/disgusting slob mode off

259 wolfgang  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:04:53am

The Revolutionary Guards must have been having dreams like the one the narrator of "Twas the Night Before Christmas" was having when visions of sugar plums were dancing in his head, only these guys must have had visions of the severely wounded USS Cole dancing in their heads.
Gulliver has been knocked to the ground by the citizens of Lilliput, the Democratic (Communist) Party, and now was the time for the Iranians to take their revenge, while the Candlelighters of Lilliput are busy binding him fast.
If they try this again, the US Navy should take great pains to give reasonable cause to rename the Straits of Hormuz, Iron Bottom Sound II.
America once knew how to decisevly, unambiguously, win a war.
The Island of Iwo Jima once held twenty one thousand Japanese defenders on it, or in it. When the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Marine Divisions left the island for good, only two hundred defenders were still alive.
The Candlelighters now stand in the way.

260 Kenneth  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:08:52am

re: #254 rawmuse

A friend of mine recently toured the manufacturer of the Phalanx system and saw a demonstration of one of them in operation. He was very impressed to say the least.

261 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:23:40am

re: #222 Kenneth

re: #208 edfeeney

It'll be looked at as Iran faced off with us and we blinked.
BULLSHIT.

The Iranians ran away. The US Navy continued on course. Clearly, the Iranians blinked while the US Navy decided not to fall for the sucker punch.

The Iranian's don't give a flyin' fck how you or I might perceive events, what matters to them is how THEY sell it, Fars News: Speedboats Warn US Warships to Stay Away of Iranian Waters

blinky, blinky...blinky.

262 bill-tb  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:26:17am

Trying to make us shoot first ...

263 Athos  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:27:29am

Phalanx - aka CIWS (SeeWhiz)

No data there that would relate to the questions on angle of depression- and I would think that this would depend on where on the ship the system was installed. (This also is behind the question I raised if the weapons were properly unmasked for a fast enough response given the speedboats were @200 yds off. Not all of these have a 360 degree arc of fire - the superstructure and other ship fittings may create blind zones that an attacker would try to leverage.)

I think we all agree that 200 yds is cutting it far too finely in our judgment and that the Iranian action is nothing more than a direct provocation.

264 Maximu§  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:36:43am

Is this a dead thread?

Whatever, what happened here is a game of cat-and-mouse. The IRG's are trying to provoke a response from the USN. When that response does come, the IRG might just sink those American ships with the latest Russian SS-N-22 Sunburn missiles.

I know many here think the USN is invulnerable, but the SS-N-22 Russian ASM's would make short work of our ships. These waters are very tight and a ship commander has only seconds to react to an attack by supersonic missiles.

Afterwards, the Iranians will claim the US provoked the attack and they were only defending themselves from American aggression. I don't doubt the outcome of the war, but I have a feeling our Navy will take some blackeyes before it casts off the restraints put on it by our weak leadership.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR

265 samsgran1948  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:37:48am

re: #204 storagemanager

re: #196 samsgran1948


re: #38 jcm

re: #1 bigdicksplace
re: #2 Wisenheimer

You don't shoot just because they are being provocative.
The Iranians wanted an incident. We didn't oblige.


Elections are coming up soon in Iran. Even though Dinnerjacket is not up for reelection this round, these elections are being seen as a referendum on his presidency. He could lose a lot of his personal supporters in the Iranian parliament or whatever they call their rubber stamp.
I strongly suspect Dinnerjacket is trying to force a fight with the US to bolster his position at home.

While it galls me to see the US back away from the little shit, I think it's the right thing to do -- unless he really gets out of line.


The Supreme Leader of Iran is the boss..too many forget that fact. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

No, I'm not forgetting that. But Dinnerjacket works hand in glove with the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, and the Guards have been slowly but surely morphing into what can only be described as the Iranian mafia. The Guards own chunks and pieces of every major means of production in Iran, and are also taking the lead in every Iranian military adventure outside of Iran -- for example, Iraq and Hizbullah. Dinnerjacket needs to maintain his current strength of position as president in order to maintain his current relationship with the Guards.

I've said before that at their current rate of speed, the Guards might well turn the Supreme Leader into the figurehead the Emperor of Japan was before the Meiji restoration. If the Guard decides not to carry out the will of the Supreme Leader, who will the Supreme Leader turn to to overthrown the Revolutionary Guard? For how long did the Praetorian Guard make and unmake Roman Emperors? Just because the Guards are loyal to the Supreme Leader today does not mean that they will be tomorrow.

266 kevinmumaw  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:49:22am

re: #21 Ojoe

That...is a beautiful picture.

267 Friend of USA  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:54:58am

What's with the boxes?

Is this their high tech way of slowing down a ship?

268 jayzee  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:04:10pm

What I find most fascinating are the posts on the ABC blog about this. Can you say Paulians?

269 ReaganRules  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:23:38pm

They're testing us the way they tested the British. The British failed miserably but I think they made a mistake with the US Navy.

270 RickZ  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:27:54pm

re: #251 realwest

re: #246 RickZ Yeah, I finally remembered that - but do you know the angle of fire on it? I mean, can the destroyer use anything to fire down on a speedboat that's only 200 meters away?

I have no idea. All I know is when I toured an older destroyer (pre Arleigh Burke class) in Norfolk during a Ship's Open House back in the late '80's (how things change), I asked the sailor providing us our tour what the rate of fire of the Phalanx Fire System was. I was told, "That's classified." He did mention, vaguely, the range, but no mention of angle required for an approaching ship. I will say that the gun platform is elevated on the ship, so has a close-in fire capability, thanks to good ol' trigonometry. But how close in is, I'm sure, classified, and with good reason.

271 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:29:31pm

re: #38 jcm

re: #1 bigdicksplace

re: #2 Wisenheimer

You don't shoot just because they are being provocative.
The Iranians wanted an incident. We didn't oblige.

___--
"Provocative" is too general a term . . . in this particular instance, were I the Navy commander, I would have blown their asses out of the water.
/You come flyin' at my ship in speedboats, you die !

272 redc1c4  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:33:20pm

re: #166 Right Turn Clyde

re: #151 EC Marm

re: #107 Right Turn Clyde


re: #87 EC MarmIn 88 the line for warning shots was 1000 yards, weapons free was 500 yards if on an intercept course. Seems we need to revert to that policy.


The only problem is the Iranians are basically driving around in civilian pleasure/speed boats. How are we to know what the intentions of Abdul are? Maybe he's only out for a little run around the Gulf with his wife and kids?
Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved if the U.S. Navy had splattered the water in front of the fools with a couple thousand rounds.

Yeah, I know they used to use Boston Whalers, don't know what they use today. The guy in the bow with the RPG or LMG RPK is usually a dead giveaway though.

fixed that for ya... %-)

273 Areopagitica  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:34:37pm

Glad to see that our Navy, unlike the formerly glorious one that gave birth to Nelson, Jelicoe, Churchill, and others, went to general quarters and were possibly minutes or seconds from pulling the trigger.

The leftists, paulians, and code pinkers and troofers can say we should show restraint and all that other good stuff, but the Captain of a ship must always put the safety/self-defense of his crew and boat above all else. I couldn't care how FARS spins the story to suggest that the RG was warning the U.S. Ships to stay away from "iranian waters" when this event happened in international waters, as was the case with the British sailors. Under the extreme left's opinion now, we should not even be allowed to sail our ships in international waters? Oh please!

This incident should be a top question in the next primary debate. What would each of the candidates, repubs and dems, have done if Iran's RG launched an attack, successful or not, on a U.S. ship, civilian or military. (My 2 cents says that:

1. Ron Paul would order a full retreat saying its our fault islam hates us. Then he will accept a campaign donation from Vlamms Belang (sp.) and win the next facebook poll 98% to 2% for the next repub candidate.

2. Bill Richardson would initiate high level diplomatic talks with dinner jacket and his imam handlers and ask them to step down as the leadership. He says "pretty please" in his request.

3. Romney would blame uninsured americans for the attack, then put some more gel in his hair and flip flop saying the attack was caused by plaintiffs attorneys.

4. Huckabee would apologize to the Iranians.

5. McCain and Gulianni might kick some butt and launch a missile at Qoom

6. Hillary's eyes would flare out of her skull like a deranged lemur.

7. Edwards would blame Haliburton and launch an investigation.

8. I still don't know what Obama would do. he may retaliate, he may take a more leftist stand. This needs to be flushed out.

I blame Jimmy Carter for all this:)

274 LudwigVanQuixote  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:49:57pm

I've seen reports that the Iranians are calling the incident "normal" and they seem to be trying to say "nothing to see here, move along."

It is very likely that they were trying to provoke a hit from the US, but I really just don't understand what they would have to gain from it. It has been suggested that the Iranians were doing this to "flip opinion." I don't see how this would do it. A large part of the reason "our friends the Saudis" are our "friends" is that they fear Iran more than they fear us.

Whatever they intended, it seems that they did not get what they wanted. Though to be sure, I did not get what I wanted. I personally would have loved to see them get sunk.

275 looking closely  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:06:11pm

re: #273 Areopagitica
Of course, we're always better off in the position of explaining to the world why our Navy blew some too-close Iranian fast boat out of the water, than explaining to the parents of dead or wounded sailors why (in the wake of the Cole) we did NOT blow said ship out of the water.

The Iranians are always going to spin any incident for their own internal political advantage, but frankly, I really don't think there would be too many people in the world crying if the USN kicked the tar out of the Iranians (again).

I also think you raise a really good point.

I'd like to hear ALL of the Presidential candidates give their take on what they think the appropriate response here is, and what it would have been if the Iranian ship had actually fired on a USN vessel.

Because face it, more likely than not, this kind of thing *IS* going to happen again under whatever new administration takes office, at the very least just to test out the new administration.

276 rustynail  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:06:12pm

re: #263 Athos
Good post ... Raytheon (http://www.raytheon.com/products/phalanx/) describes the Phalanx Block IIB as specifically designed for littoral warfare threats, such as helicopters and high speed surface threats. The Block IIB has a surface mode configuration, equipped with FLIR.

That said, your comment about interfering superstructure, etc., and the dependence on threat identification using FLIR suggests that there has to be a line that threats should not be allowed to cross. I agree that 200 yards is way too close

Raytheon Phalanx CIWS

277 Render  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:30:11pm

Straights of Hormuz:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: homepage.ntlworld.com...]

As one can see, deep water maneuvering room is severely limited within the actual straights themselves.

Although Bandar Abbas, (visible on the above chart), is the primary Iranian naval base, those speedboats do not belong to the Iranian navy. They belong to the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. As previously mentioned during the Royal Marine "Crisis," these speedboats are not armed with any kind of conventional naval weapons. They carry light infantry weapons up to and including heavy machine guns, anti-tank rockets, anti-tank missiles, as well as shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. They can also carry light anti-ship mines.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In addition to the Phalanx system, (currently based around the M-61 Vulcan 20mm Gatling gun), all US Navy combat ships also carry numerous Browning M-2HB .50cal, M-60 7.62mm machine guns, and Bushmaster M- 242 25mm auto-cannons for close in work. (side note: both the M-61 Vulcan and the M-242 Bushmaster are scheduled to be replaced soon by 30mm variants.)

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Larak and Hormuz Islands, (north side of the straight), both have radar sites, anti-ship missile sites, and anti-aircraft missile sites. All are clearly visible in Google Earth. The missiles themselves are vehicle mounted and kept parked in underground bunkers prior to use.

REAL
LIFE
INTRUDES,
R

278 tantraman  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:43:10pm
What would Reagan do ?

Reagan? The guy who sold weapons to the Iranians at the time they were an avowed enemy?

279 wolfgang  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:48:10pm

These are dangerous times for the United States.
Secretary of State Powell is gone, replaced by Condoleeza Rice. Gone as well are Rumsfeld, Libby, and Bolton. These four, more or less hardliners, have been replaced by people who lean more toward the accomodationist's and candlelighter's worldview, or who actually are themselves, accomodationists and candlelighters.
How do you say "going from bad to worse" in twenty different languages?
The Pacifists in State, CIA, and DOD have won their war against the President and as a result, for all practical purposes, things are no different today, than they were at the end of the Clinton Administration.
Do you remember what the actions taken by #42, WJC, were after the USS Cole was bombed?
Try Zero, Zip, Nata, Zilch for your answer!

280 selpaw  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:56:06pm

re: #273 Areopagitica

I find it quite amazing how everyone would react and or has a part in this except the sitting president of almost 8 years.

Almost eight years later and Bush who has done nothing constructive with the Iranians expect blow a few toothless objections never is mentioned.

#223 I repeat

No doubt emboldened by the weakness of the Democratic candidates for president (and some of the Republicans too),


The world has emboldened Iran. Having said that however I feel a bit of a spin going on here because for the last almost 8 years George Bush has been commander and chief.

Why talk about the influence of weak candidates on both sides of the isle when it is clear Bush has backed out of his doctrine thus greatly diminishing the influence of his office.

Face it, our arch enemy Iran, our good friends in the war on terror the Saudis and our good friends in the war on terror Egypt as well as our supposed enemy Syria who got a big walloping invite to the Annapolis sham from a conservative administration get away with mocking and provoking us because they can.

By turning our back on their grievous crimes with at best a rare toothless condemnation and calling some of them our friends including the extreme whitewash of the Palestinians and their terrorist intentions simply serves to embolden them all.

We can deflect from it all we want and pass blame until hell freezes over but the guy sitting in the White House surely deserves a lions share of the blame.

and I will add:
For doing next to nothing about Iran.

281 AirForceWife  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 2:21:27pm
#278 tantraman 1/07/08 1:43:10 pm reply quote report 0
What would Reagan do ?
Reagan? The guy who sold weapons to the Iranians at the time they were an avowed enemy?

Reagan was very singularly focused on defeating communism and not letting it spread throughout Central America. It was a shipment of small arms and it was a sneaky thing to do to have to get around the communist loving democratic congress and the crazy boland amendment. Far more troubling is why congress didn't work with the Reagan Adm but instead were in opposition to trying to prevent communism from spreading like wildfire right here on our continent. It's almost as if the democrats in congress at time wanted communism to flourish in Central America or something.

282 EtNorskTroll  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 2:46:25pm

re: #118 ibmkeyboard

re: #80 storagemanager


241 dead marines in Lebanon...


The Navy should have blown their asses out of the water,
In memory of our dead Marines.

/ but it will happen again and pay back will come.

I don't want to be around for THAT day...

~ENT

283 JohnnyReb  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 2:51:26pm

re: #74 Right Turn Clyde

This was common stuff in 88 during Operation Earnest Will. They'd circle us and sometimes charge, would usually turn when we put some rounds across their bow.


Exactly right! They kept provoking us just to get an "incident" they could blame the big bad Americans for. We did not fall for it. Well except for the Vincennes incident. I was on the MIDWAY then and my buddy was on the FFG MCCLUSKEY at that time. We were constantly on alert. Fast boats were testing the ROE daily.

There are very good reasons for these Rules. The gulf is swarming with boats and ships constantly. From supertankers down to wooden fishing dhows. Other than the straits of Malacca and Hong Kong, it is one of the most crowded waterways in the world.

Rules of Engagement are in effect for the entire Gulf area. No firing unless fired upon or within a certain distance from US ships. And I am sure they were warned not to come within "x" distance or they would be fired on. Very standard stuff.

I am going to go out on a limb here, but I suspect that Iran is just trying to provoke an incident to grab headlines. Possibly to see how it would work out on the MSM. They are reaching.

284 Render  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:21:11pm
285 astronmr20  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 4:09:51pm

the Iranian navy must be feeling SERIOUSLY elated righ tnow.

Kidnapped 15 British sailors; directly challenged the US navy.

They must feel invincible.


PLEASE let's prove them otherwise, mmmkay?

286 Airedale  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 4:25:43pm

Remember the USS Cole.
those five speed boats throwing empty boxes into the water is a set up to lull the crews into complacency.

They would love to deny an attack on a bigger fish using North Korean semi submersables and speed boats.

[Link: www.navsource.org...]

287 Airedale  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 4:27:10pm

[Link: www.navsource.org...]


Water sprays from a test blast conducted off the starboard side of USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71), September 19, 1987. The test was conducted to determine the carrier's ability to withstand underwater shock waves. US Navy photo by PH2 Dale (Defense Visual Information Center photo id: DN-SC-88-01426).

288 Mel Lono  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 6:23:07pm

re: #220 Salem

God Bless him. And thank you for telling us. Please let us know how he's doing.

289 wisewolf1958  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 6:53:19pm

Just an FYI. On one of the US ships involved there is a lizard. I know this because he is my son. Also More in depth info than I saw on many msm sites can be found at this address:
null

290 Salem  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:43:16pm

re: #288 Mel Lono

re: #220 Salem

God Bless him. And thank you for telling us. Please let us know how he's doing.

I'll try. He may be kind of hard to contact for awhile. Last I talked to him the Navy wanted him to be a nuclear engineer, but that means two years of school and he talked like that wasn't his scene really, then he said he'd be a non-combat diver, then I recently got word that he wants to be a combat diver, which I guess means he's looking at becoming a SEAL, eventually.

291 Macker  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:23:20pm

re: #99 jcm

Do you know what a CIWS would do to a "gunboat" at 200 yards?
Wouldn't be enough left for the fish to eat.

Christ It Won't Shoot?

292 jenv  Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:56:44pm

re: #37 Alas


Islamism will one day be history as well, no matter how brazen and aggressive they now seem and despite how many leftists in the West they have at their disposal as useful idiots.


This won't happen, not unless you kill every last Muslim. Islam teaches that Muslims are the best and most superior of peoples, that Islam is perfect and beyond criticism, that Muslims have a duty to bring Islam's perfection to everyone (by lethal force if necessary), and therefore Muslims by right (as the best and most perfect of people) should rule the world. This impulse can be suppressed for a time, even for centuries, after Infidel victories, but calls for "purification" and a return to such ideas by way of following Muhammad's example are as inevitable as the rising sun. No, the only way to crush Islamism is to make Islam's tenets so abhorrent, or make Islam itself so associated with weakness and failure, that nobody would willingly remain or become Muslim.

293 Ledger1  Tue, Jan 8, 2008 1:20:35am

This stinks.

The timing of this incident is too close to Bush’s visit to ME and reeks of intimidation.

Even though the Iranian boats are small they could carry anything from a load of explosives to a small nuke.

[NavyTimes]

The Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps attack boats approached the U.S. ships’ starboard bows, Cosgriff said, and broke left and right into two groups on either side of the Americans, even passing between the warships as they steamed in formation. The boats passed between 200 and 500 yards of the U.S. surface group, and Iranian sailors from two boats dropped “white, box-like objects” that floated in the water ahead of the Ingraham, Cosgriff said. But the U.S. captains ordered evasive turns and the three warships passed clear of the objects in the water.

Cosgriff confirmed that the Iranian sailors also sent a hostile radio message to the U.S. crews that translated approximately to, “we’re closing with you, and your ships are going to explode.” As the U.S. warships and Iranian boats maneuvered near each other, U.S. commanders warned the Iranians with radio messages and blasts of the ships’ horns. At least one ship’s captain reported he was about to open fire when the Iranians broke off, Cosgriff confirmed. The incident was over after about 30 minutes, Cosgriff said, when the Iranian attack boats returned in the direction from which they had come. The encounter was “needlessly provocative,” he said.

See: Navytimes: Top admiral details U.S. Iranian encounter

294 boboco1066p  Tue, Jan 8, 2008 4:51:11pm

The fish rots from the head down. The Commanding

Officer did not want to risk his future retirement

pension or that great paying job coming down the

road over such a no-win confrontation. Officers fear

the consequences of action more than they fear the

consequences of failure.

295 smokefire  Wed, Jan 9, 2008 10:08:57am

what ever happened to shoot first, ask questions later.

Damn, I wish I had been CO of one of those ships.
Lock and Load Baby, Lock and Load. Screw 'rules of engagement'


As Admiral Dewey said at Manila Bay...
'you may fire when ready, Gridley'.

296 smokefire  Wed, Jan 9, 2008 10:12:51am

re: #294 boboco1066p

The fish rots from the head down. The Commanding

Officer did not want to risk his future retirement

pension or that great paying job coming down the

road over such a no-win confrontation. Officers fear

the consequences of action more than they fear the

consequences of failure.

bobo, the last time something like this occured, The USS Cole got a large hole in it's side, and many brave sailors got killed, and the CO lost his command. I would rather lose my command over toasting renegade Iranians. who wanted to play chicken with my ship, then lose part of my crew and my ship, because I did not act fast enough.

297 boboco1066p  Wed, Jan 9, 2008 3:36:32pm

Smokefire I think you may have missed my point.

Our military leaders have been so politically indoc-

trinated in multi-culturism and political correctness

that this sort of appeasement will be the norm for

future confrontations . Since we do not have a leader

in the White House , why should the military heads

stick their necks out ?


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 Frank says:

You wouldn't know a revolution if it bit you on the dick. -- In response to a young crowd member continually shouting "Revolution" between songs at a late 60's gig. The gig was at Middle Earth in Indianapolis, Indiana.