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Leftist in Evangelist's Clothing Fails to Win Secular Support

Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 8:24:35 am PST

Mike Huckabee did his pandering best to enlist the support of non-evangelicals in South Carolina, but as John Fund reports, he basically failed.

Mike Huckabee tried his best to expand beyond his evangelical base in South Carolina and appeal to what his campaign called “Joe Six Pack” voters. Mr. Huckabee was the only candidate to pander to devotees of the Confederate flag, telling crowds that outsiders should leave the banner flag, now displayed in a corner of the grounds of the state capitol, alone: “If somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell ‘em what to do with the pole, that’s what we’d do.” Contrast that with the comments of Mr. Huckabee’s fellow Southerner Fred Thompson: “For a great many Americans, [the flag] is a symbol of racism. I’m glad people have made a decision not to display it . . . in a state capitol.”

Mr. Huckabee also tried pandering to immigration foes. As governor he had opposed measures targeting illegal aliens. Just before the primary, he signed a pledge that he would use law enforcement to send all 12 million illegal aliens home. He vehemently denied any inconsistency in his views. It didn’t work. Among the one-fourth of voters for whom illegal immigration was a top issue, Mr. Huckabee defeated John McCain by only 33% to 24%—a sign that many voters recognize the issue’s complexities and view it in context once they get inside the voting booth.

Once again, Mr. Huckabee failed to achieve significant support outside his evangelical base. Only 1 in 7 non-evangelicals voted for him, placing him behind not just Mr. McCain but Fred Thompson and Mitt Romney. He finished a close second overall only because he won more than 2 out of 5 evangelical voters, who made up 60% of South Carolina’s primary turnout. And he pandered to his base, too, running TV ads proclaiming himself a “Christian leader.” The vote among voters who considered themselves evangelicals and those who said TV ads were “very important” in determining how they voted was the same: Mr. Huckabee defeated John McCain 43% to 28% in both categories.

This repeats a pattern seen in other states. In Iowa, where evangelicals also were 60% of the electorate, Mr. Huckabee won but carried the votes of only 13% of non-evangelicals. In three states with more secular Republican electorates—New Hampshire, Michigan and Nevada—he has won between 4% and 8% of non-evangelicals, trailing even fringe candidate Ron Paul.

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1 Carl in Jerusalem  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:26:00am

Here's breathing a sigh of relief.

Good morning Charles! Sent you something.

2 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:26:54am

Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye!

/Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, Mike.

3 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:27:06am

You do not get to be President of the United States of America...by holding a Bible.

4 Alouette  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:27:30am

Not sorry to see Huck the Shmuck lose.

5 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:27:37am

Stick a fork in that popcorn popper, see if Huckasquirrel is done.

6 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:27:41am

This race has been Romney's from the outset. McCain is making things interesting at the moment, and even that will be fleeting. Florida will make or break the GOP candidacies for Rudy, McCain, and Thompson. Romney will survive through to Super Tuesday, where it will be all but a two-person race.

Huckabee has been a nonfactor since his first and only win in Iowa. People simply do not care for him or his policies.

7 Shug  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:28:44am
“If somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell ‘em what to do with the pole, that’s what we’d do.”

my, how Christian of him

8 republic  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:29:21am

I'm waiting for the Mike Huckabee "screeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaam"!

9 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:29:22am

Off topic shameless plug.

My cousin is trying to make a go as a director in Hollywood. He's got a video up and could use some "funny" votes."

10 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:29:29am

. . . and then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House! HalleluYeeeaararh!

11 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:29:40am

Thank G-d. McShowboat next!

Faster, please.

12 Watcher  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:31:48am

When Huck said that he plans "to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards," that was his swan song.

13 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:31:49am
14 friarstale  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:34:00am

as long as Saint Hillary doesn't get elected, I'll be happy

Who will be easier for the Republicans to beat, Hillary or Obama?

and will Bloomberg enter as a third party candidate?

let's face it, the Democrats and Republicans are both at fault for our nations troubles, even if it's just a matter of dealing with those things that are completely out of our control

15 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:34:17am

Eli Manning for President!

(sorry Momma Winger)

16 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:34:19am

Speaking of idiots running for President, Hillary revealed her inner Mao again in Pravda East (linked from Drudge):

For Clinton, Government as Economic Prod

The money quote:

“If you go back and look at our history, we were most successful when we had that balance between an effective, vigorous government and a dynamic, appropriately regulated market,” Mrs. Clinton said. “And we have systematically diminished the role and the responsibility of our government, and we have watched our market become imbalanced.”

She added: “I want to get back to the appropriate balance of power between government and the market.”

...because that's worked so well before!

Dear Hillary,

Please, pleeeeease just keep your trap shut, keep weaseling, and we'll start the Great Leap Forward AFTER we win. Have Bill talk economics FOR you.

Signed,

The other Democrats

17 republic  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:35:17am

re: #13 taxfreekiller

Huck a duck will soon attract more than the lie fleas he has, he will attract the Ron Paul's once they see Ron can not reestablish sanity.

They will join in a bubble bath of hot grease in Huck a ducks pop corn popper, then just could be we the people will be done with both of these loons, Ron at least tells the truth as his loon brain believes, Huck makes it up day by day about sun up.


The GOP certainly could have fielded a much better group of possible candidates.

Any of the true conservatives have been kicked out, because people fear that a true conservative could never win the general election.

Truly sad times.

18 Alouette  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:35:53am
19 NYexpat  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:36:37am

The problem was not so much that he couldn't expand beyond his base as that more of the evangelicals are getting wise to him!

20 Thanos  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:38:58am

I'm happy that voters realize that we simply do not need another populist panderer from Arkansas in the oval office... regardless of the side of the aisle the profess to be on.

21 Thanos  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:40:10am

One other note, I was at Stormfront yesterday looking for BNP info, and there were a few articles on Huckabee, I think they like his stance on the flag.

22 varmint  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:40:13am

so far, the republican field reminds me of last call at the singles bar.

23 LoFlyer  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:40:51am

re: #17 republic

Thmpson is the only real conservative in the race, and doesn't have the drive to win.. Democrats could win this one because the Republican candidate will most likely be "democrat lite". Socialism is not what Republicans want, and that is what most of the Republican candidates have supported in the past...

24 realwest  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:41:01am

re: #22 varmint So what does the Democrat field remind you of?

25 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:41:04am

re: #20 Thanos

I'm happy that voters realize that we simply do not need another populist panderer from Arkansas in the oval office... regardless of the side of the aisle the profess to be on.

The interesting thing is, he'd make a superb Democrat if he could put a cork in the Gawd-and-Jaysus business. Having watched him in the press conferences debates, I think he's honestly better at verbal weaselage than Clinton.

There's Something About Arkansas...

26 daledog  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:42:29am

On the bright side Huck, you extended your 15 minutes of fame to 17 minutes. Now leave.

Anybody hear Chuck Norris advocate for Huck on the Michael Medved show? Mr. Norris was less than convincing. Just another dopey celebrity.

27 realwest  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:42:30am

re: #25 Pawn of the Oppressor "There's Something About Arkansas..." maybe there's something in the water there! LOL!

28 pat  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:43:15am

Huckabee and McCain have a lot in common.

29 Shug  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:44:30am

re: #28 pat

Huckabee and McCain have a lot in common.

they also share 97% of DNA with the starfish

30 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:44:32am

re: #27 realwest

re: #25 Pawn of the Oppressor "There's Something About Arkansas..." maybe there's something in the water there! LOL!

Carl Childers for President.

Scene: the first American-Iranian summit since 1979

Ahmedinejad: "Welcome, President Childers. What are you doing with that lawnmower blade?"

President Childers: "I aims t' keel you widdit. Mmm-hm."

*thump*
*thump*

31 Ornery Ballsack  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:44:43am

re: #26 daledog

32 FrogMarch  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:45:45am

I don't understand how or why Huckabee and McCain are drawing any votes?

the Republican base must really want to lose in November.

33 Ornery Ballsack  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:45:51am

re: #31 Ornery Ballsack

Say what you want about Huck - don't f-ck with Chuck.[Link: 4q.cc...]

34 zmdavid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:48:05am

re: #29 Shug

re: #28 pat


Huckabee and McCain have a lot in common.

they also share 97% of DNA with the starfish


Starfish for President!

35 daledog  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:48:34am

re: #33 Ornery Ballsack

I might f-ck with Chuck, but I would be a derned foo to mess with someone by the name of Ornery Ballsack.

36 mean Gene  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:48:52am

Glad to see that southern Christians saw through him.
As a Christian Californian, I am never sure that it's not just me who sees these things. (We're pretty isolated out here.)
When independents and crossover dem votes are removed, has McCain even won one primary?
I hope there are enough republican-only primaries to get him out before ''super-duper'' day.

37 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:49:30am

Huckabee does seem to be the worst of both worlds. I'm glad to see him dropping behind. Not that I'm too thrilled with the rest of the field, but...

38 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:49:44am

re: #29 Shug

re: #28 pat

Huckabee and McCain have a lot in common.

they also share 97% of DNA with the starfish

What are you a starfishaphobe? ;-)

39 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:50:16am

re: #16 Pawn of the Oppressor

Speaking of idiots running for President, Hillary revealed her inner Mao again in Pravda East (linked from Drudge):

For Clinton, Government as Economic Prod

The money quote:


“If you go back and look at our history, we were most successful when we had that balance between an effective, vigorous government and a dynamic, appropriately regulated market,” Mrs. Clinton said. “And we have systematically diminished the role and the responsibility of our government, and we have watched our market become imbalanced.”She added: “I want to get back to the appropriate balance of power between government and the market.”

...because that's worked so well before!

Dear Hillary,

Please, pleeeeease just keep your trap shut, keep weaseling, and we'll start the Great Leap Forward AFTER we win. Have Bill talk economics FOR you.

Signed,

The other Democrats

Hillary,

Tell that the every Eastern European country who got screwed by the Mamma Russia...

My favorite story about "dynamic, appropriately regulated market',
look up 'Forced Famine in Ukraine' on Google.

40 LoFlyer  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:50:22am

re: #33 Ornery Ballsack

Good advice, don't frack with anything. Until I get better advice, I am fracking anything available and the required sex and age. If Americans did more fracking rather than talking, we would all be better off....

41 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:51:04am

re: #24 realwest

re: #22 varmint So what does the Democrat field remind you of?

Hope Change Hookers

42 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:51:42am

re: #34 zmdavid

re: #29 Shug


re: #28 pat

Huckabee and McCain have a lot in common.

they also share 97% of DNA with the starfish

Starfish for President!

Sounds like a gag from a Futurama episode.

UN speeches would be awkward though.

/imagines seawater tank with slowly moving starfish placed on the podium

43 MrMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:52:25am

re: #13 taxfreekiller

a bubble bath of hot grease


Heh. Rotate it Charles!

44 MrMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:53:49am

Good Morning Lizards!
My 'puter SPLODED about the middle of last week and the IT geeks just got me back in business. Missed Ya!

45 itellu3times  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:54:07am
In three states with more secular Republican electorates—New Hampshire, Michigan and Nevada—he has won between 4% and 8% of non-evangelicals, trailing even fringe candidate Ron Paul.

Those three states are also outside the south, presume Huckleberry got some SC votes out of being a southernah, too.

As soon as Huckleberry decided to be A Christian Leader, he became a Republican non-leader, it's pretty much that simple. It's like he mistook the Democratic caricature view of the Republican party as the real thing.

46 LoFlyer  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:55:11am

Welcome back MrMom! Computers are a blessing and a curse!

47 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:55:17am

re: #44 MrMom

Good Morning Lizards!
My 'puter SPLODED about the middle of last week and the IT geeks just got me back in business. Missed Ya!

Welcome back!

48 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:56:01am

re: #41 Occasional Reader

re: #24 realwest

re: #22 varmint So what does the Democrat field remind you of?

Hope Change Hookers

Paid for by our tax dollars...

49 realwest  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:56:02am

re: #41 Occasional Reader Ding, Ding, Ding....We have a winnah here! LOL! Good morning O.R., how are you?

50 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:56:45am

re: #37 Occasional Reader

Huckabee does seem to be the worst of both worlds. I'm glad to see him dropping behind. Not that I'm too thrilled with the rest of the field, but...

It sucks pure and simple. On the bright side I see a bunch of up and comers.

Jindal in LA.

Rossi in WA
Steele in MD

51 storagemanager  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:57:12am
re: #44 MrMom

Welcome back.

52 pat  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:57:32am

Open Borders Starfish?

53 freetoken  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:57:32am

re: #23 LoFlyer

re: #17 republic

Socialism is not what Republicans want [...]

Oh, really? Do you have any evidence to back this up?

I'd agree if you said most Republicans do not want communism ala Mao or Stalin.

However, most Republicans are quite comfortable with socialism, at least to some degree.

54 realwest  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:57:40am

re: #48 Oh no...Sand People! Yeah, paid for by our tax dollars but we're the ones being screwed!

55 realwest  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:58:33am

re: #53 freetoken Why do you say that?

56 Q-Burn  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:58:52am

72- year old John McCain has just threatened to send his 95 year old mom over to wash out 67 year old Chuck Norris's mouth with soap. Chuck said McCain was too old, implied he would die in the White House. You couldn't make this stuff up...

57 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:59:23am

OT:

This can't be good...

MEXICO CITY (AP) - This year, for the first time, expatriate Democrats can cast their ballots on the Internet in a presidential primary for people living outside the United States.

Democrats Abroad [China, Russia, Iran, North Korea...], an official branch of the party representing overseas voters, will hold its first global presidential preference primary from Feb. 5 to 12, with ex-pats selecting the candidate of their choice by Internet as well as fax, mail and in-person at polling places in more than 100 countries.

58 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:00:00am

re: #54 realwest

re: #48 Oh no...Sand People! Yeah, paid for by our tax dollars but we're the ones being screwed!

Yes, yes we are.

59 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:00:37am

Funny... Huckabee did much better than Rudy in all the elections so far, but the calls are for us to 'hold on' for Rudy, but stick a fork in huckabee.

If Huckabee is 'done' then so is Rudy.

I don't expect to many agree with that.

Though, I admit that I am taken back and kind of offended at the rampant slamming of christians and christianity during the time of Huckabee's popularity.

60 Shug  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:00:52am

re: #58 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #54 realwest


re: #48 Oh no...Sand People! Yeah, paid for by our tax dollars but we're the ones being screwed!

Yes, yes we are.


and there ain't no "reach around"

61 bnichols10[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:01:25am
62 BenZacharia  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:01:35am

Real...,

Largest increase in socialism in the last 40 years has come from this admin. "no child left behind" "Medicare script bennie". Just sayin'

63 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:02:10am

Ok, someone expain this to me.

So, we have a mixed-economy (capitalism and socialism) called The Third Way?

64 Yank in the EU  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:02:38am
Leftist in Evangelist's Clothing

That is certainly apt. Identity politics, economic populism and foreign policy appeasement language should be better kept on the other side of the isle.

65 mean Gene  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:02:43am

re: #44 MrMom
Glad you're back.
I went through a similar thing a month ago when I had to drop Netscape and go to Firefox. (Windows will no longer automatically update any Netscape.)
I really like my new homepage and my computer seems to be ten times faster and more reliable.

66 LoFlyer  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:02:46am

re: #53 freetoken
To a degree, I will agree. No one wants to see the poor and homeless without some form of help. The problem, is that most of those classified as "poor" are actually doing well financially. The government doesn't know that due to incomplete tax returns. America's poor would be considered kings in Mexico....

67 itellu3times  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:02:48am

re: #59 LanceKates

Funny... Huckabee did much better than Rudy in all the elections so far, but the calls are for us to 'hold on' for Rudy, but stick a fork in huckabee.

If Huckabee is 'done' then so is Rudy.

I don't expect to many agree with that.

Well, that's just how Rudy planned it ... so far. We'll know in about two weeks if it was genius, or the opposite.

Though, I admit that I am taken back and kind of offended at the rampant slamming of christians and christianity during the time of Huckabee's popularity.

I think it's when religion is offered as a substitute for politics, that the catcalls begin.

68 BenZacharia  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:03:00am

Real...,

Forgot. 265 million a year has gone to Planned un-Parenthood for the last 7 years. Pro-Life? Yeah right!

69 WriterMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:04:01am

re: #21 Thanos

I went there looking for socky comments from the Canadian Human Reich Kommissar but came up empty-handed.

70 Endangered in MASS  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:04:12am

re: #37 Occasional Reader

Makes you appreciate the Gipper.President Bush had the chance to do alot of great things but he has dropped the ball.

Eventually Bush will be judged more kindly. 4-8 years of the Hillary or Barrack should do the trick.

71 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:05:15am

re: #67 itellu3times

Rudy planned to lose in the 6 votes so far, hoping instead to do well in NY and FL (land of former NY people)

In other words, he admits that outside of NY, he has almost no support, and is counting on people to not see that?

and he's touted as the 'one' who can beat hillary....

I think it's when religion is offered as a substitute for politics, that the catcalls begin.

No, it is he admission and public discussion of being a christian that I see the catcalls begin. As well as the offensive "Evangelicals wouldn't vote for a morman" crap.

72 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:05:26am

re: #59 LanceKates

Funny... Huckabee did much better than Rudy in all the elections so far, but the calls are for us to 'hold on' for Rudy, but stick a fork in huckabee.

If Huckabee is 'done' then so is Rudy.

I don't expect to many agree with that.

Though, I admit that I am taken back and kind of offended at the rampant slamming of christians and christianity during the time of Huckabee's popularity.

Except for one thing, Rudy strategy is FL and Super Tuesday. He was planning or expecting to win the early ones.

Huck's strategy once he gained momentum was to build mo by winning a few early ones.

73 freetoken  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:05:31am

re: #55 realwest

Social Security ... Medicare... Medicaid... virtually all entitlement programs have been fully embraced by the Republican electorate in a large enough percentage for there to be now no viable opposition in expanding them.

Farm subsidies... supported by Republicans.

... and so on.

74 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:05:47am

re: #68 BenZacharia

Real...,

Forgot. 265 million a year has gone to Planned un-Parenthood for the last 7 years. Pro-Life? Yeah right!

Um, $265MM per year *in federal money* has gone to Planned Parenthood?

Link, please.

75 MrMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:05:53am

re: #59 LanceKates

Funny... Huckabee did much better than Rudy in all the elections so far, but the calls are for us to 'hold on' for Rudy, but stick a fork in huckabee.

If Huckabee is 'done' then so is Rudy.

I don't expect to many agree with that.

Though, I admit that I am taken back and kind of offended at the rampant slamming of christians and christianity during the time of Huckabee's popularity.


I think what conservatives don't like is that Huck wants to be elected because he's Christian

76 WriterMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:07:40am
77 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:07:50am

re: #73 freetoken

Yes, subdue the masses --let them eat cake --then we'll spend their money.

But I don't think that is purely a Republican concept. I think government, as a whole, finds it a expedient way to do business.

78 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:08:36am

re: #71 LanceKates


No, it is he admission and public discussion of being a christian that I see the catcalls begin. As well as the offensive "Evangelicals wouldn't vote for a mormon" crap.

It's because he's clearly a scheister, who's policies are more Leftist than Republican, with nothing going for him except his cross on the wall. Outside of Iowa the rest of the world clearly sees that he's playing Evangelicals for suckers, and yes, we are going to laugh at people who fall for his BS.

79 BenZacharia  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:09:16am

re: #74 Occasional Reader

re: #68 BenZacharia


Real...,

Forgot. 265 million a year has gone to Planned un-Parenthood for the last 7 years. Pro-Life? Yeah right!


Um, $265MM per year *in federal money* has gone to Planned Parenthood?

Link, please.

[Link: www.google.com...]

Search engines.

80 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:11:12am

re: #72 jcm

Right... Rudy's 'plan' is to do well where the NY voters are. NY and FL.

I said from the beginning that he doesn't have support in most of the US.... Vote after Vote shows this... but we ought to hold on to Rudy and drop everyone else?

What is it going to take for people to stick the fork in Rudy? VP material at best.

He is a social and poltiical liberal on all issues except supporting a lower tax and the war.

Lieberman is more conservative than Rudy on almost everything, and he's a liberal too.

No one has made a valid and realistic case for why he'd be a good republican president except to say '9/11" and "He returned the saudi check!"

sorry. not sufficient for being the leader of the united states at a time that we have a democrat congress.

81 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:11:18am

re: #73 freetoken

re: #55 realwest

Social Security ... Medicare... Medicaid... virtually all entitlement programs have been fully embraced by the Republican electorate in a large enough percentage for there to be now no viable opposition in expanding them.

Farm subsidies... supported by Republicans.

... and so on.

Capitalism is long gone.

82 MrMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:11:57am

Somewhat OT:
Since Roe v. Wade in 1973 there have been approximately 40 million American citizens killed in utero(sp.?). We now have (conservatively) 12 million and probably as many as 30 million illegal aliens in our country to fill a need in the labor pool. I'm no Eric Cartman, but even I can do the math on that.

83 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:12:09am

re: #75 MrMom

I think more of that was invented by the MSM than from his campaign.

He was, clearly, the most outwardly religious of the candidates, but I never heard him say "You should vote for me because I'm a christian and I'll bring about a theocracy" which is what his critics suggested.

84 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:12:45am

re: #78 Pawn of the Oppressor

so your complaint is that he is a liberal. That's fine and very valid.

Who is it that YOU support?

85 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:13:45am

re: #67 itellu3times

re: #59 LanceKates

Funny... Huckabee did much better than Rudy in all the elections so far, but the calls are for us to 'hold on' for Rudy, but stick a fork in huckabee.

If Huckabee is 'done' then so is Rudy.

I don't expect to many agree with that.

Well, that's just how Rudy planned it ... so far. We'll know in about two weeks if it was genius, or the opposite.

Though, I admit that I am taken back and kind of offended at the rampant slamming of christians and christianity during the time of Huckabee's popularity.

I think it's when religion is offered as a substitute for politics, that the catcalls begin.

First, Giuliani is Casey at the Bat. It just won't work to sit there and never swing until right at the last.

Second, who is slamming Christians and Christianity? The problem comes when Huckabee tries to identify himself as the only Christian running, and tries to suggest that only Christians can be worthy to be political leaders. Wrong, and wrong again.

Third, Huckabee and Rudy are both heavily odds off as things stand. Rudy hasn't shown up for the race, and Huck gave it his all but has only shown that he cannot win support for his policies. He only gets support from one narrow slice of the electorate. That's a prescription for getting 10 or 20 electoral votes out of 540 or so in the general election.

86 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:13:57am

I realise that a lot of people, including 99.9% of the MSM think Christian conservatives are rubes who are easily fooled. Here we see that outside of Iowa at least they know the difference between conservative political philosophy and leftism laced with the word "god".

Of course, I'm not holding my breath for the MSM (or some of the more vehement secularists in the blogosphere) to change their opinions in light of data... no, you see, I'm not that easily fooled.

87 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:14:16am

I'm no fan of Huckabee, but must admit I like what he had to say about the flag, more than what Fred said.

The Confederate flag is not a symbol of racism; in fact, it was more a symbol of individual freedom (from centralized government) than anything to do with slavery (let alone racism).

Huckabee's point smacked of states' rights - a more obvious symbolism, and not incorrect; not immoral either, for that matter.

Fred's point is well-taken, but not a good sign of leadership. A good leader ought to point out the truth of the flag's historical nature. Too many loonies are prepared, today, to denigrate any conservative symbol by claiming it is racist - or something else that's shameful. When we let them get away with it, we lose something - my opinion.

88 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:15:16am

re: #85 lostlakehiker

I have no problem with people bashing Huckabee for his policies.

But bashing 'evangelicals' or bashing him for BEING an evangelical...

That is below the standard of character I expected from bloggers here and is something one would find on blogs that we condemn for being too childish.

89 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:15:24am
90 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:16:19am

Duncan Hunter is truly conservative, but he was given, in comparison to the media darling candidates, virtually no national media attention and had to withdraw.

The success of the left in dumbing down our educational system such that the masses no longer have the intelligence nor the interest in learning what candidates stand for has been stunning. When I see these news reports of women writing in to chastise Oprah for being a gender traitor, I become increasingly dejected at the likelihood that our great Republic will survive the coming mobocracy.

I put money on the following events if Hitlary occupies the White House again:

1) Reinstitution of the misnamed "Fairness Doctrine".
2) Passage of a law erasing the electoral college.
3) Massive increases in income tax rates.
4) Cessation of any efforts to control the US border.
5) Decimation of the US medical system.
6) Significant increase in terrorism.
7) Appointment of leftwing radicals to federal judicial posts, ensuring that any conservative, pro-American legistation passed by grassroots movements will be judged "unconstitutional". (ie, Photo ID to vote, Defense of Marriage laws, tax cuts, illegal alien deportations....)
8) Use of the US military on asinine, worthless, insanely stupid "social worker" missions that have utterly nothing to do with US policy and are absolutely counter-productive to our national interests...but make the UN happy because American soldiers are put under UN control.
9) More invasive government control of every aspect of our lives in the name of "stopping climate change".

Our ancestors must be quite bitter that we are giving up so easily that for which they sacrificed so much to earn for all of us.

91 Thanos  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:16:22am

re: #76 WriterMom

OT: New, Shiny Ezra Levant Piece: What A Strange Place Canada Is

There's a very good point about the laws of unintended consequences in that article, I've been trying to get it across to the GoV crowd to no avail. It's a lesson in why freedom must come first, and why Freedom is strength, not weakness.

92 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:16:42am

re: #89 taxfreekiller

He hasn't yet, after numerous attemps and losses in the presidential campaign.

forget going Dem... I just want him to go away and retire.

93 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:16:59am

re: #80 LanceKates

Not really arguing against your point of why is Huck a dead duck, and not Rudy.

Neither is on the top of my list. If you count religion I'm probably closest to Huck there. I don't like his record, or his religious pandering. Rudy is too liberal and has a liberal record.

Is it an anti-religious bias, I'm not convinced that's the whole story. It is a factor to a lot of people, frankly that's a shame. What I do see is Huck's strategy is failing, and Rudy's isn't in play yet, and that's what real political wonks are looking at.

94 Orde  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:17:04am

I'm really floored, shocked by Charles' labelling of Huckabee as a leftist. Extremely disappointing beyond words. Best wishes to all lizards, good-bye.

95 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:17:05am

re: #85 lostlakehiker

Florida isn't the last round. It's the start of a serious run of states with a huge number of delegates at stake. Thus far, Romney, McCain and Huck holding most of the delegates and Romney with a small but sizable lead. If Rudy does well in FL and going forward into Super Tuesday, he takes advantage of the others beating up on each other prior to FL. The question - and it's a huge one - is that did he ruin his chances by not running in other states as hard as he should have because he didn't keep a strong media presence and voters simply latched onto other candidates instead?

We'll see after Florida.

Right now, this is Romney's to lose.

96 NFLFan  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:17:19am

No one here is giving Mike Huckabee for his support of the Fair Tax. He has already said he will sign the bill when he is President. It will then be a 5 year struggle to get the 16th amendment repealed. But it can be done with our grass roots effort. Remember, Christopher Colombus was told the earth was flat, They also told the Wright Brothers that that thing will never fly. I am not a 1 issue guy, but, Huckabee is the best out there. The Hitlerry must be stopped anyway.
Go Mike!

97 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:18:15am

Romney looks and acts like a Kennedy --I think that is all they breed in MA.

On principle, I'm not voting for anyone from MA or AK.

98 BenZacharia  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:18:22am

re: #87 AuldTrafford


The Confederate flag is not a symbol of racism; in fact, it was more a symbol of individual freedom (from centralized government) than anything to do with slavery (let alone racism).

It helps to do an analysis of the Confederate constitution in a side by side with the US Constitution. Guess where they diverge?

99 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:18:42am

re: #90 Babydoc97

Duncan Hunter is truly conservative, but he was given, in comparison to the media darling candidates, virtually no national media attention and had to withdraw.

A-Friggen-Men. Even when the press was covering something Congress was doing that he was involved in, they ignored him. Wholly.

Then once the MSM declared him 'unelectable' the public followed suit.

But don't tell them that they're being led around by the MSM.

100 freetoken  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:19:18am

re: #77 ggt

There is no way to put the genie back in the bottle... which is why even Fred had no policy to do so. Fred's plan to save SS was just that, a way to ensure SS continues, not to get rid of it. And even he failed to address the now written in law growth of entitlements coming, which GAO has clearly flagged as being far beyond what we can pay.

Look, I'm a bit agnostic about how much socialism is good or bad - I am not arguing for a Ron Paul version of the future. ( By my nature I am a contrarian, not a rebel or a reversalist. )

It is just that on so many internet boards there is vocal group espousing what a "true" Republican or a "true" conservative really ought to be... What I have observed is that most Americans, including most Republicans, are willing to accept that government in various forms ought to play a significant role in our lives.

101 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:19:38am

re: #93 jcm

How many primaries must Rudy be in and score less than 9% before people will consider him done?

We've done 6 so far and Ron paul has beat him in 4 of those 6.

Ron Friggen Paul!

102 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:19:56am

re: #56 Q-Burn

The media continues to talk about McCain, McCain, McCain. Never really a mention of Romney, except as an afterthought. I am disgusted by their blatant attempt to influence this election.

103 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:20:27am

re: #88 LanceKates

re: #85 lostlakehiker

I have no problem with people bashing Huckabee for his policies.

But bashing 'evangelicals' or bashing him for BEING an evangelical...

That is below the standard of character I expected from bloggers here and is something one would find on blogs that we condemn for being too childish.

That I agree with!

Last week I was defending Romney because folks were bashing his Mormonisim

104 mike volpe  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:21:13am

Let me see if I understand this piece correctly. Huckabee came from 2-3% points in the polls to winning Iowa, nearly winning SC and you think he failed. Can someone please explain the venom you all have towards him? He didn't fail. In fact, his campaign is a stunning success. With no name recognition, no money, no organization, he created a grass roots movement that vaulted him into the national discussion. He carved a niche, conservative populism, and it carried him to a victory in the first primary and a near victory in SC. Back in the summer and fall, most folks thought he would have dropped out before the first primary and now he is challenging for the nomination.

The hatred of Huckabee, and most of the candidates short of FDT, on the blogosphere is frankly obscene. I don't know why you folks feel the need to assassinate the character of our own Presidential candidates, when we have another party that is perfectly fit for a plethora of hit pieces.

Most of the character assassins on the blogosphere are supporters of FDT. At this point, I dislike Thompson supporters more than Paul. You all need to get a grip. Your guy isn't that good a candidate. That doesn't mean you need to assassinate the character of every other candidate. Your non stop assassinations spawned me to write this.

105 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:21:37am

re: #97 ggt

Romeny reminds me too much of Clinton.

not the sex thing, I doubt Romney'd do that.

Just the sticking your finger in the air to determine what is popular before you do it.

Bad way for Clinton to have led in the 90's and bad now.

However, between him, Rudy and McCain.... Romney wins in my book.

(though they ALL pale in comparison to Hunter.)

106 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:22:02am

re: #59 LanceKates

Lance, it's not Huckabee's alleged Christianity that is being slammed. It is his hypocritical use of Christianity to push leftist governmental ideas, compunded by his even more egregious hypocrisy in claiming he is a conservative!

He's another Arkansas snake-oil salesman, and we've had more than enough of those in the White House.

107 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:22:15am

re: #99 LanceKates

re: #90 Babydoc97

Duncan Hunter is truly conservative, but he was given, in comparison to the media darling candidates, virtually no national media attention and had to withdraw.

A-Friggen-Men. Even when the press was covering something Congress was doing that he was involved in, they ignored him. Wholly.

Then once the MSM declared him 'unelectable' the public followed suit.

But don't tell them that they're being led around by the MSM.

Duncan got buried by the MEDIA. The (R) party is right now too far left and did not push the only CONSERVATIVE candidate.

108 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:22:20am

re: #84 LanceKates

re: #78 Pawn of the Oppressor

so your complaint is that he is a liberal. That's fine and very valid.

Who is it that YOU support?

None of them, really. Well that's not true, I guess Fred or Mitt, in that order.

Rudy talks a fantastic game and I appreciate his public persona - he can think on his feet, he has a habit of actually answering questions honestly, instead of showboating, and except for that funny stutter he's great to listen to. Unfortunately the way he's handled his personal life, his habit of making seemingly ungenuine changes in stance (with the exception of changing parties in the early 80s), and his way of exploiting other people's pain for his own gain bothers me deeply.

McCain can get bent. He's a showboating borderline psychopath with a big mouth, an even bigger ego, and a "f-ck you" response to anybody who questions him. We've had eight years of a President who ignores reality already, and McCain is flat-out wrong on immigration and gun control.

Mitt's a genuinely nice guy by all accounts but he seems underconfident and plastic. Thompson's sharp too but he doesn't seem to want it bad enough, I'd like to see him come out swinging.

109 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:22:48am

re: #101 LanceKates

How many of those 9 did Rudy actually run in besides simply putting his name on the ballot - only in NH. From FL to Super Tuesday, you're going to have hundreds of delegates at stake, and whoever comes out in those contests will have the edge.

110 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:23:10am

re: #103 jcm

incredibly stupid. And as I said, it is grossly offensive to suggest that I, as one of those pesky 'evangelicals', am just far too bigoted to ever vote for a Mormon.

That's as stupid and offensive as suggesting that I wouldn't vote for Obama because he's black or Hillary because she's a woman.

But, bashing christians and calling them bigoted is always popular.

I think that is because we don't behead when insulted....

111 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:23:16am
112 zmdavid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:23:19am

re: #96 NFLFan
A $2 Trillion a year tax system based on sales tax is just as unfair as one based on income taxes. The important thing is to lower taxes, whatever their form.

113 Q-Burn  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:24:24am

re: #102 Carolmill

You're right, Romney is not getting his due. He has quietly acquired quite a lead in delegates, but you hardly hear about that. The press does not like him and they like McCain.

114 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:24:35am

re: #106 Babydoc97

alleged Christianity

Alleged? Come on.

115 Adrenalyn  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:24:44am

and don't forget folks
Romney gets his own planet when he dies
and gets to have the women of his day
and any others he chooses
in the afterlife

why can't the Republicans get someone to run that does not have some major, fatal flaws in the character, platform, religion ?

116 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:25:03am

re: #107 jcm

why would they? They operate under the insane idea that if they just nominate someone liberal enough, the media will like them!

117 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:25:22am

re: #110 LanceKates

re: #103 jcm

incredibly stupid. And as I said, it is grossly offensive to suggest that I, as one of those pesky 'evangelicals', am just far too bigoted to ever vote for a Mormon.

That's as stupid and offensive as suggesting that I wouldn't vote for Obama because he's black or Hillary because she's a woman.

But, bashing christians and calling them bigoted is always popular.

I think that is because we don't behead when insulted....

Beheading is just so damn messy....... ;-P

118 BulgarWheat  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:26:55am

Speaking of which.....a bunch of "white separtests" have shown up in Jena, Louisiana on MLK day.

Sigh!

119 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:26:59am

re: #109 lawhawk

So, once again, we get back to my constant point:

Even Rudy knows that he doesn't have support in any state except NY and FL (Home of MANY former NY retired folk)

He mostly ignored flyover country.

Sorry. No go. ESPECIALLY not with a demcorat congress.

120 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:27:00am

re: #94 Orde

I'm really floored, shocked by Charles' labelling of Huckabee as a leftist. Extremely disappointing beyond words. Best wishes to all lizards, good-bye.

What? You like Huckabee's Big Government tax-and-spend policies in Arkansas? Or his support for open borders and illegal immigrant amnesty? This is old news by now, haven't you been paying attention? Or is his "evangelism" all that matters? The GOP's "Jimmy Carter" is an apt description.

121 Just Another Four-letter Word  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:27:15am

re: #50 jcm

re: #37 Occasional Reader

Huckabee does seem to be the worst of both worlds. I'm glad to see him dropping behind. Not that I'm too thrilled with the rest of the field, but...

It sucks pure and simple. On the bright side I see a bunch of up and comers.

Jindal in LA.

Rossi in WA
Steele in MD

jcm, you get a chance to read [Link: www.soundpolitics.com?...] Think the Donks will try the same crapola that gave Her Royal Hignhess Gregoire the nod again this election cycle? I hope Dino does a more aggressive effort at campaigning this time... and the election watchers are many...

JAFLW

/Folks, Washington State has gone to an all-mail-in ballot, with many, MANY possibilities for election fraud...

122 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:27:35am

re: #118 BulgarWheat

Speaking of which.....a bunch of "white separtests" have shown up in Jena, Louisiana on MLK day.

Sigh!

Doesn't any one work anymore?

123 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:27:52am

re: #116 LanceKates

So do we retake the (R) party and reestablish Goldwater / Reagan ideology.

3rd party isn't historical viable. The (R) would have to split with the Rhino's going to the (D) and leaving a vacuum for the Lizard party.

124 zmdavid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:27:59am

re: #97 ggt

Romney looks and acts like a Kennedy --I think that is all they breed in MA.

On principle, I'm not voting for anyone from MA or AK.


What have you got against Alaska?

125 kansas  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:28:04am

Huck Huck bo buck
Bonanna fana fo *%$# off.

The Republicans are seeing through this POS.
It is depressing, however, that Dems
are voting for Hillary.

126 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:28:39am

re: #117 jcm

Heh. true.

re: #118 BulgarWheat

As sick as it sounds, I've always thought that the civil rights rallies, where they talked about the oppressed minority and oppressive white guy were always somewhat racist.

I'm not suprised that a white racist group showed up. Racism begets Racism.

127 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:28:40am

re: #124 zmdavid

re: #97 ggt

Romney looks and acts like a Kennedy --I think that is all they breed in MA.

On principle, I'm not voting for anyone from MA or AK.


What have you got against Alaska?

Hee. Hee.

128 rawmuse  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:29:01am

I don't want Huck to be the nominee, I don't care that he plays the bass.

129 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:29:04am

re: #115 Adrenalyn


why can't the Republicans get someone to run that does not have some major, fatal flaws in the character, platform, religion ?

Because such a person doesn't exist. We're voting for the Least Fatal Choice, for the country and Western Civilization as a whole.

Look at what the Democrats have to deal with. Edwards is a sleazy cartoon character, Clinton is deeply psychotic, and Obama is a grade-A Jew-hating liar. Look on the bright side, none of those people represent us! I'd rather face the Republican choices any day of the week.

130 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:29:11am

re: #59 LanceKates

Statistically you will not hit with 100% of the shots you don't take and won't win 100% of the races in which you do not run.

Rudy hasn't run in any of the states who've voted so far. In the process 156 of 2380 delegates have been selected. How do you figure that he's finished when less than 7% of the delgates have been chosen. That's like declaring the winner of a marathon at mile 2.

131 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:29:16am

re: #120 Spiny Norman

re: #94 Orde


I'm really floored, shocked by Charles' labelling of Huckabee as a leftist. Extremely disappointing beyond words. Best wishes to all lizards, good-bye.

What? You like Huckabee's Big Government tax-and-spend policies in Arkansas? Or his support for open borders and illegal immigrant amnesty? This is old news by now, haven't you been paying attention? Or is his "evangelism" all that matters? The GOP's "Jimmy Carter" is an apt description.


You know.... like Rudy. But without gun - grabbing.

132 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:29:57am

re: #98 BenZacharia

re: #87 AuldTrafford


The Confederate flag is not a symbol of racism; in fact, it was more a symbol of individual freedom (from centralized government) than anything to do with slavery (let alone racism).

It helps to do an analysis of the Confederate constitution in a side by side with the US Constitution. Guess where they diverge?

OK; I tried scanning it quickly. Some references to slavery - not too much different from the antebellum US Constitution (i.e., pre-13th & 14th Amendment). No racial qualifications for office, and no bar to citizenship for members of the African race - that I could see, anyway.

Not sure what your point is - are you with me, or agin' me? I did not say the Confederacy had nothing to do with slavery - that would be an inane statement. I said it was more about individual freedom. Note that the CSA Const'n forbade importation of slaves from outside the CSA. And many scholars agree that slavery as an institution was not likely to last a long time in the CSA if she achieved independence.

133 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:30:43am

re: #123 jcm

The RNC has been told, when they call for donations, that people aren't donating to them because they're ignoring conservative voters.

The RNC response was to fire the call center employees who passed that information on.

They don't want to reform. Time for a Conservative Party.

134 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:30:47am

re: #121 Just Another Four-letter Word

There going to try for certain. However the Queens' number are lower than GWB's. IMHO the margin is going to be too wide to steal. In fact if the (R) nominee is Rudy or McCain, I can see the backlash against the Queen turning WA red.

135 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:31:13am

re: #129 Pawn of the Oppressor

While I agree with everything you said, How come I still feel like crap voting for any of our candidates!

136 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:31:22am

re: #129 Pawn of the Oppressor

Duncan Hunter.

137 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:32:09am

re: #130 Crusader Rabbit

Seems well enough for people to have declared Hunter, Tancredo, and now Huckabee finished.

138 BulgarWheat  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:32:39am

#126 LanceKates

It's depressing that they had to show up today of all days in an area that is already dealing with some related problems. It's a provoking move, pretty cut and dried.

I see nothing positve coming out of it.

139 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:33:20am

re: #138 BulgarWheat

Nothing positive ever comes from racism.

That is also why I oppose Affirmative Action and EEOC.

140 jcm  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:33:28am

Gotta do some real work!

Later Lizards.

141 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:33:37am

re: #100 freetoken

All theory seem to work in small groups (controlled experiement) but with a population at something like 2B there are soo many variables --no one theory can encompass it all. I want to help the blind, the unemployable, dependent children. I want short-term safety nets for those in "in transition." This is in my self-interest and in the countries best interest.

I understand that if Federal Money (my money adminstered by a central authority) is involved, they (the administrators acting on my authority)have a say (can infiltrate, audit, enforce laws), in the goings on of an organization. I think I am oppossed to so much Federal Money migrating into private affairs.

How long before it gets totally turned upside down? How long before they assumption is that all money belongs to the state and the part I don't pay in taxes is my "allowance" --pin money?

How long before the system makes us all NEED a long-term safety net because it forces us all into "transition."

142 BenZacharia  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:33:50am

re: #132 AuldTrafford

Keep in mind that Dred Scott came down before the CSA constitution. So blacks were, as a matter of settled law non-humans, unable ever to be citizens.


Gotta go. TTFN™

143 RTLM  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:34:10am

Too many Republicans will obviously sit on their hands and "Refuse to vote" for anyone less than what they determine to be a true conservative. You folks might consider the damage to SCOTUS any Dem will do, not to mention the droves of Leftist/ideologue Appellate Court Judges they'll appoint without any challenge or public notice at all. We had glimpse of this "principle" in 2006 and we now have the most inept, contemptible pack of idiots running the House and Senate I've ever seen.
So go ahead and stand on your principle (sit on your hands) and difacto vote for Hillary.

Thanks for nothing.

144 FoolsMate  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:34:24am

re: #6 lawhawk

This race has been Romney's from the outset. McCain is making things interesting at the moment, and even that will be fleeting. Florida will make or break the GOP candidacies for Rudy, McCain, and Thompson. Romney will survive through to Super Tuesday, where it will be all but a two-person race.

Huckabee has been a nonfactor since his first and only win in Iowa. People simply do not care for him or his policies.

I wish it were true or so easy; I am a Romney supporter. If this were a Romney-McCain two-way race, I think Romney would win hands down. But Huckabee and Thompson are splitting off significant chunks of the conservative Republican vote, which opens the door for McCain. McCain has a lot of momentum and if that translates to a win in FL, he could put Romney down on Super Tuesday. McCain is getting a second look now from conservatives, having won SC, because he looks like a sure winner versus Clinton or Obama.

145 zmdavid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:34:29am

OK, I now understand what is wrong with MA and AK
Mike Gravel

Mike Gravel was born in Springfield, Massachusetts, to French Canadian immigrants.
...
Mike Gravel served in the Alaska House of Representatives from 1963-66, and as Speaker from 1965-66. He then represented Alaska in the U.S. Senate from 1969-81.
146 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:34:55am

re: #90 Babydoc97,

2) Passage of a law erasing the electoral college.


That requires a Constitutional Amendment. I don't see that ever passing. Why should Wyoming throw away what little influence it has on national politics?

The small states won't go for it. They shouldn't. The Electoral College is yet one more example of the Founders' brilliance. It provides a balance where none would exist if we were simply a representative Democracy.

Not that I don't think that the "Democrats" won't try to get rid of it. I just don't think they can.

147 BulgarWheat  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:35:09am

#139 LanceKates

I agree with you completely.

148 NFLFan  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:35:26am

re: #112 zmdavid

I wish you would go to a library and READ Boortz's book and go to The Fair Tax
and do a little research. You'll discover that it is a very fair tax. The IRS needs to be replaced by a saner system, the Fair Tax will bring 13 Trillion of US money that is ove4rseas back to America, that will jump start the economy for all of us.

149 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:35:38am

re: #121 Just Another Four-letter Word

/Folks, Washington State has gone to an all-mail-in ballot, with many, MANY possibilities for election fraud...

What could possibly go wrong?

/sarc (as thick as molasses)

150 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:35:48am

re: #143 RTLM

And please explain why enabling a Leftward moving Republican Party is something a conservative would want to do, as compared to voting for a conservative?

The point of voting isn't to vote for who will win, but to vote for you YOU belive will do the best job.

That the D and R parties have shifted that into "Vote for us or you're electing the other side" only furthers the existance of their two parties to the exclusion of benefit to the United States.

151 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:35:59am

re: #142 BenZacharia

CU.

Not sure Dred Scott said that; as I recall it said fugitive slaves did not attain freedom and had to be returned to their owners. Many northern blacks were citizens by that time, and I don't recall that Dred Scott said anything about that.

152 Adrenalyn  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:36:02am

re: #129 Pawn of the Oppressor

re: #115 Adrenalyn



why can't the Republicans get someone to run that does not have some major, fatal flaws in the character, platform, religion ?

Because such a person doesn't exist. We're voting for the Least Fatal Choice, for the country and Western Civilization as a whole.

Look at what the Democrats have to deal with. Edwards is a sleazy cartoon character, Clinton is deeply psychotic, and Obama is a grade-A Jew-hating liar. Look on the bright side, none of those people represent us! I'd rather face the Republican choices any day of the week.

I agree, and believe it or not, I would vote for the mormon over any nazicrat.
and my family would be so proud of me too
they might even invite me to weddings and baptisms

153 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:36:06am

re: #124 zmdavid

PIMF == ARkansas

154 MrMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:36:21am

re: #115 Adrenalyn


ROTFLMAO! Best avatar yet1

155 redstateredneck  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:36:29am

re: #137 LanceKates

re: #130 Crusader Rabbit

Seems well enough for people to have declared Hunter, Tancredo, and now Huckabee finished.

Didn't Hunter withdraw after Nevada?

156 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:36:34am

re: #143 RTLM

Calm down now. Most of the people are here because they care and are pretty knowledgeable. They may get frustrated at times and threaten to sit it out, but I doubt most will.

157 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:36:54am

re: #149 Spiny Norman

Democrats are doing a "Democrats Aborad" internet vote.

158 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:37:40am

re: #155 redstateredneck

Yes... after all, according to the MSM, he was finished before he started.

Why continue to waste money at that point?

159 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:37:42am

re: #124 zmdavid

Actually, I like Alaska. I feel I've slighted it in someway by not previewing.

Kids off school today is my only excuse.
/hanging head in shame.

160 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:38:02am

re: #146 Iron Fist

re: #90 Babydoc97,


2) Passage of a law erasing the electoral college.

That requires a Constitutional Amendment. I don't see that ever passing. Why should Wyoming throw away what little influence it has on national politics?

The small states won't go for it. They shouldn't. The Electoral College is yet one more example of the Founders' brilliance. It provides a balance where none would exist if we were simply a representative Democracy.

Not that I don't think that the "Democrats" won't try to get rid of it. I just don't think they can.

One thing being tried at the state level (I think MD & NJ have signed on, so far) is not to eliminate the College, but to mandate that its members vote for the winner of the popular vote.

I agree with you that changing it is bad policy.

161 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:38:06am

re: #156 Nevergiveup

I don't sit out elections. I won't always vote Republican, but I vote.

162 itellu3times  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:38:46am

re: #88 LanceKates

I have no problem with people bashing Huckabee for his policies.

But bashing 'evangelicals' or bashing him for BEING an evangelical...

That is below the standard of character I expected from bloggers here and is something one would find on blogs that we condemn for being too childish.

It's below the standard the electorate expects, for Huckabee to look for votes for BEING an evangelical.

I have to say, I was sort of liking him at first, but he lost me by being a little too cute and avoiding the issues.

163 redstateredneck  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:38:50am

re: #158 LanceKates

re: #155 redstateredneck

Yes... after all, according to the MSM, he was finished before he started.

Why continue to waste money at that point?

It's hard for a congressman to run for president.

164 Adrenalyn  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:38:54am

re: #154 MrMom

re: #115 Adrenalyn


ROTFLMAO! Best avatar yet1

why thank you (said in an impersonated voice of Curly Stooge)
nyack, nyack

165 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:39:08am

re: #160 AuldTrafford

That works both ways. We may lose some texas votes, but we'll gain many CA votes.

Same applies to NY... possibly also IL.

states with big cities that override the vote of the rest of the state.

166 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:39:17am

re: #152 Adrenalyn

re: #129 Pawn of the Oppressor

re: #115 Adrenalyn



why can't the Republicans get someone to run that does not have some major, fatal flaws in the character, platform, religion ?


Because such a person doesn't exist. We're voting for the Least Fatal Choice, for the country and Western Civilization as a whole.Look at what the Democrats have to deal with. Edwards is a sleazy cartoon character, Clinton is deeply psychotic, and Obama is a grade-A Jew-hating liar. Look on the bright side, none of those people represent us! I'd rather face the Republican choices any day of the week.

I agree, and believe it or not, I would vote for the mormon over any nazicrat.
and my family would be so proud of me too
they might even invite me to weddings and baptisms

(Wiping off LCD screen from spit water)
I looked at your avatar, then I read your last two lines...that is classic. FUNNY.

167 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:39:21am

re: #137 LanceKates

There is also some talk by the Media that if Thompson bows out, he will throw his support to McCain. I have noticed that, although he criticized Huckabee, he is reticent about saying anything negative about McCain. I know that they are friends, but, as the only true conservative in the bunch, how could he throw his support to McCain? I believe that if Thompson had been as honest about McCain as he was for Hucabee, he might have changed the results of the South Carolina primary.

168 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:39:25am

re: #137 LanceKates
So you've chosen to be equally illogical?

169 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:39:38am

re: #163 redstateredneck

Obama and Hillary seem to be doing ok.

170 BenZacharia  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:40:04am

re: #146 Iron Fist


They have made end runs around the Constitution before, whats new?

the aforementioned "Dred Scott"
"Emanations on the penumbra"
"Kelo"
"Fiat money"

Too many to go into on my way out.

All they need to do is redefine the words and presto chango were now a federal socialist hegemony instead of a Constitutional Republic

171 zmdavid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:40:05am

re: #153 ggt
I thought that's what you meant, but there is truth in your typo (see #145).

172 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:40:20am

re: #144 FoolsMate

How is Romney any different from Huckabee? They're both Big Government liberal Republicans. One is just more polished than the other.

173 redstateredneck  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:40:23am

re: #163 redstateredneck

It's hard for a congressman to run for president.

House of Representatives, that is.

174 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:40:44am

re: #124 zmdavid

re: #97 ggt


Romney looks and acts like a Kennedy --I think that is all they breed in MA.

On principle, I'm not voting for anyone from MA or AK.


What have you got against Alaska?

Whack him with a hunk of blubber.

175 Adrenalyn  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:41:10am

re: #166 Oh no...Sand People!

believe it or not, I try to be funny
but, being a Gemini
I also get to be an asshole once in a while
or at least people accuse me of such behavior

176 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:41:46am

OT but too important for spinoff links.

This article at Frontpagemag describes how "Sharia finance" is trying to infiltrate Western businesses.

One commenter to the article had this to say:

It has been said by several people that Al-Qaeda intends to destroy the west's economy. This is one way of doing it - suck up money by "investments" like these, use the money to fund jihad - and then, don't pay back.
The money gets lost, hurting the economy, and the money went to terrorists to attack us as well!
At least Ponzi just kept the money.

Anyone else think this is financial terrorism?

177 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:42:14am

re: #167 Carolmill

I don't know what thompson would do... I hope he wouldn't support McCain. If that were the case, i'd rather he be quiet if he drops out.


re: #168 Crusader Rabbit

I'm calling out the illogical nature of those who demand that we hold on to Rudy, but count out anyone else.

sorry... it isn't going to fly. If Hunter is gone because he couldn't get the support, Rudy ought to be as well.

I have more venom for Rudy given his pro-gun control stances at a time with a democrat congress itching for a gun control bill, as well as his other liberal stances.

Considering the liberal baggage, I see nothing to convince me that he is woth the cost.

178 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:42:30am

Huckabee is CLEARLY the best public speaker and rhetorician in this campaign (if you forget about the guy behind the curtain pulling Hillary's strings.) And that still counts for a lot in elections particularly primaries.

He is also sincere in his religious beliefs and since Christians account for a huge majority in this country it is hardly naive to emphasis this association although some find any linkage between a politician and religion distasteful.

His economic and foreign policy positions are non existent or lean against traditional Republican positions and this will be the reason he will not win the nomination.

We should not resort to ridicule on any Republican candidate. They are all good men and Americans.

179 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:42:31am

re: #172 Spiny Norman

re: #144 FoolsMate

How is Romney any different from Huckabee? They're both Big Government liberal Republicans. One is just more polished than the other.

I guess if 'Increase the Private Sector = Big Government' then you would be right with Romney.

180 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:42:42am

re: #172 Spiny Norman

one is an 'evanglical'

181 imtoast  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:43:07am

I was raised a Mormon. If the election came to McCain or Romney, I would vote for Romney. However, I would vote for Huckabee before ever considering Romney. Mormonism is a cult and I would have to hold my nose before casting a vote for Romney. The lessor of two evils, McCain vs Romney, then yes, Romney would get my vote. I am a Rudy fan, he is my first choice.

182 Just Another Four-letter Word  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:44:16am

re: #134 jcm

re: #121 Just Another Four-letter Word

There going to try for certain. However the Queens' number are lower than GWB's. IMHO the margin is going to be too wide to steal. In fact if the (R) nominee is Rudy or McCain, I can see the backlash against the Queen turning WA red.

One can hope, Fellow Lizard, one can hope!

(But don't discount the Donk's ability to try and steal elections! - they've had LOTS of practice!)

JAFLW

183 MrMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:44:35am

re: #154 MrMom

PIMF yet!

184 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:44:37am

re: #165 LanceKates

Well, I favor a Republic over a Democracy, and anything that takes us closer to Democracy, and way from a Republic, I think is not a good move. But you're right, one-man-one-vote was the biggest loss to the Republican form of government, and the rest may be comparatively insignificant.

185 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:44:50am

re: #165 LanceKates

re: #160 AuldTrafford

That works both ways. We may lose some texas votes, but we'll gain many CA votes.

Same applies to NY... possibly also IL.

states with big cities that override the vote of the rest of the state.

What is being suggested here in California is that the Electors be awarded by Congressional district, rather than "winner take all", with the two Senate Electors would go to the winner of the state's popular vote.

186 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:45:13am
187 FoolsMate  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:45:21am

re: #53 freetoken

re: #23 LoFlyer

re: #17 republic

Socialism is not what Republicans want [...]

Oh, really? Do you have any evidence to back this up?

I'd agree if you said most Republicans do not want communism ala Mao or Stalin.

However, most Republicans are quite comfortable with socialism, at least to some degree.

On the continuum defined at its extremes by pure socialism vs pure capitalism, the US of course lies somewhere in between. Most Republicans believe we should move in the direction of capitalism. Almost no one believes in a pure capitalist system, which would exclude any and all restraints on trade, such as worker safety rules, child labor laws, labor licensing laws (such as doctors must pass board exams), just to name a few "socialist" ideas.

188 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:45:41am

re: #179 Oh no...Sand People!

Romney isn't as conservative on taxes and government than you imply.

Raised $240M in MA fees, but only covering cost of services. (Jan 2008)

FactCheck: Never opposed 2003 Bush cuts, but never supported. (Jan 2008)


He 'promises' not to raise taxes... doesn't that sound familiar?

189 RTLM  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:45:43am

re: #150 LanceKates

re: #143 RTLM

And please explain why enabling a Leftward moving Republican Party is something a conservative would want to do, as compared to voting for a conservative?

The point of voting isn't to vote for who will win, but to vote for you YOU belive will do the best job.

That the D and R parties have shifted that into "Vote for us or you're electing the other side" only furthers the existance of their two parties to the exclusion of benefit to the United States.

I've heard the argument: "It took a Carter to get a Reagan elected". I'll call BS on that statement as it relates to this election in this era. I would rather not go through another 4 years of Carter-esque incompetence. The stakes are too high today.

There IS a difference in these parties (and people). I keep bringing folks back to the SCOTUS and other court appointments. I intend to vote for the (R) nominee. I strongly encourage you to do the same.

190 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:46:13am

re: #177 LanceKates

I'll take that as a 'yes'.

191 Adrenalyn  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:46:19am

re: #181 imtoast

love the avatar
and your former-mormonness

you'll get shit from some over those views
you should see the flaming I have gotten over the same views

....that said though....

you want a cup of coffee with that toast ?


/snarky grin

192 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:47:00am

and Romney on gun control:

I support the work of the NRA, but disagree sometimes. (Dec 2007)

Ok to ban lethal weapons that threaten police. (Dec 2007)

Supports Second Amendment rights but also assault weapon ban. (May 2007)

Will support assault weapons bill and Brady Bill. (Aug 1994)

193 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:47:38am

re: #188 LanceKates

re: #179 Oh no...Sand People!

Romney isn't as conservative on taxes and government than you imply.

Raised $240M in MA fees, but only covering cost of services. (Jan 2008)

FactCheck: Never opposed 2003 Bush cuts, but never supported. (Jan 2008)


He 'promises' not to raise taxes... doesn't that sound familiar?

It sounds as familiar as every politician in history.

194 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:48:16am

re: #179 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #172 Spiny Norman
re: #144 FoolsMate

How is Romney any different from Huckabee? They're both Big Government liberal Republicans. One is just more polished than the other.

I guess if 'Increase the Private Sector = Big Government' then you would be right with Romney.

His universal health care by government mandate in Massachussetts was "increasing the Private Sector" and not a Big Government program? OK.

195 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:48:54am

re: #181 imtoast

I have a friend that is an apostate Morman. She's had a hard time. I can't generalize to all Mormans from her experience, but it does make me stop and think.

196 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:48:59am

re: #189 RTLM

Rudy appointed judges so liberal that the democrats in NY noted how liberal they were.

And you believe him because he says he would appoint conservative judges?

No, I won't blindly vote. That is the death of freedom, not the exercise of it.

197 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:49:16am

re: #185 Spiny Norman

I haven't researched it, but my memory is that the original idea was that the College was populated by representatives free to vote for whomever (and not even elected by popular vote). So, Calif. may be onto something, but let's not get fooled into thinking it is leading to a real Republican form of government.

198 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:49:20am

re: #190 Crusader Rabbit

believe what you want. who do you support?

199 Yank in the EU  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:49:24am

The problem with starting a third party is that in effect it spells automatic victory for the left, since the US happens to be split basically 50/50. Third-partiers might have wonderful intentions and argue that a little suffering under the socialists in the short-term might be a good thing, but in reality the Dems in power spells disaster. Military cuts, tax hikes, environmentalist lunacy, transformation into Euro-socialism, retreat from our enemies and apologies to the world for the US's bad behavior for its history. Don't start a third party; put something better in place of the current party which is the only hope against socialism -- i.e. reform.

200 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:49:43am

re: #193 Oh no...Sand People!

and therefore should be ignored.

201 imtoast  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:49:46am

re: #191 Adrenalyn

-If you have jam for my toast I'll take that coffee!

202 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:50:38am

re: #192 LanceKates

and Romney on gun control:

I support the work of the NRA, but disagree sometimes. (Dec 2007)

Ok to ban lethal weapons that threaten police. (Dec 2007)

Supports Second Amendment rights but also assault weapon ban. (May 2007)

Will support assault weapons bill and Brady Bill. (Aug 1994)

That is his Achilles heel in my book. Sad that his positions are still stronger on guns than Rudy. I am a one issue voter, and 2nd Amendment is my issue.

203 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:51:37am

re: #187 FoolsMate

re: #53 freetoken


re: #23 LoFlyer

re: #17 republic

Socialism is not what Republicans want [...]


Oh, really? Do you have any evidence to back this up?

I'd agree if you said most Republicans do not want communism ala Mao or Stalin.

However, most Republicans are quite comfortable with socialism, at least to some degree.


On the continuum defined at its extremes by pure socialism vs pure capitalism, the US of course lies somewhere in between. Most Republicans believe we should move in the direction of capitalism. Almost no one believes in a pure capitalist system, which would exclude any and all restraints on trade, such as worker safety rules, child labor laws, labor licensing laws (such as doctors must pass board exams), just to name a few "socialist" ideas.

I choose capitalism.

204 Just Another Four-letter Word  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:51:42am

re: #156 Nevergiveup

re: #143 RTLM

Calm down now. Most of the people are here because they care and are pretty knowledgeable. They may get frustrated at times and threaten to sit it out, but I doubt most will.

Yes, but it's not us Lizards that I'm worried about sitting on their hands, but the vast majority of Conservatives not voting because of their limited/bad/can't-stand-'em choices on the 'pub side. Look what happened in the last election!

At least I went and voted, even though I had to hold my nose when making my choices...

JAFLW

205 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:52:04am

re: #194 Spiny Norman

re: #179 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #172 Spiny Norman

re: #144 FoolsMateHow is Romney any different from Huckabee? They're both Big Government liberal Republicans. One is just more polished than the other.

I guess if 'Increase the Private Sector = Big Government' then you would be right with Romney.

His universal health care by government mandate in Massachussetts was "increasing the Private Sector" and not a Big Government program? OK.

Yeah, people had to find healthcare from a private company...not a government ran company. He then goes on to say that each state will be responsible to come up with a solution, as opposed to a massive government ran entitlement for the masses.

206 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:52:13am

re: #199 Yank in the EU

So, instead, we should vote liberal because they're not VERY liberal....

Every political party lost until it got enough support. As the Republicans continue to move to the left to capture displaced democrats, it benefits the Republican Party, not the United States to continue to blindly vote for them just because there is an R after their name.

Political parties have a rise and fall. These aren't the first two political parties that existed, nor should they be continued simply to avoid a MORE liberal group from beating a liberal group.

207 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:52:32am
208 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:52:37am

re: #202 Oh no...Sand People!

molon labe

209 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:53:27am

re: #202 Oh no...Sand People!

he also supports (or at least helped impliment) a form of universal healthcare.

He lied about starting new taxes (He called them 'fees' you'll remember... then later had to agree that fees are taxes)

I'd put him over Rudy, but I don't know if I'd vote for Romney as a Republican Candidate.

210 RTLM  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:53:52am

re: #196 LanceKates

re: #189 RTLM

Rudy appointed judges so liberal that the democrats in NY noted how liberal they were.

And you believe him because he says he would appoint conservative judges?

No, I won't blindly vote. That is the death of freedom, not the exercise of it.

Then welcome to a Hillary Presidency.

Honestly, I think Rudy is a non factor. My bets are it will be a contest between McCain And Romney. And if it comes down to it I'll hold my nose and vote for McCain.

211 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:53:53am

re: #203 debutaunt

I suspect you are arguing over flyspecks. It is true that almost no one wants pure anything - it is the direction that counts.

212 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:54:02am

re: #96 NFLFan

Huckabee's Fair Tax is not a fair tax. It isn't politically realizable either, because there is zero chance of getting a constitutional amendment through.

It's not fair because it double-taxes all savings. First you earn the money. Then you pay income taxes on it. Then you save some of what's left. And then Huck's tax comes along and takes 30% of that.

Fair?

It's also not fair because (and now we get into the weeds a bit) it taxes people who are only just barely getting by. Sales taxes are like that.

Today's economy is kind of winner-take-all. There are a relatively few people who earn buckets of money. There are a number in the middle who make a good living. But there are tens of millions who scrape by. Under today's tax code, these millions pay no federal income tax, or next to nothing. They have done their share by supporting themselves and their families, and raising the next generation. Maybe in their later years, as they build earning power and send their kids off into the world, they'll find themselves hit with a sizable IRS bill. This is fair. Huck's plan is not. It hits the working guy when he's down.

Finally, Huck's plan has not been thought through. Like any tax, a huge bureaucracy will be required to police it. There will be all sorts of tax dodges. What we have now is a system that's been through almost a century of shakedown cruise. It rattles along, and it works after a fashion. With Huck's plan, we'd have leaks springing in the system right and left.

The problem with the IRS isn't anything to do with the IRS. The problem is that the federal govt spends too much, so it has to raise too much money.

Cut spending, cut taxes, and the remaining injustices of the system will be bearable.

213 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:54:17am

re: #122 Nevergiveup,

Hey, man, I'm not working today because I'm sick as shit. I dunno about other peoples' excuses :-)

214 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:54:34am

re: #90 Babydoc97

Well said !

215 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:55:03am
216 Hollowpoint  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:55:05am

re: #61 bnichols10

Call Fred's campaign HQ now. They are keeping a list of people who want him to stay in the race.

1-571-730-1000

The only legitimate reason for Fred to stay in the race at this point is to draw some votes from other candidates. He has no chance of winning. Zero. He's done.

I say that as someone who's been in Fred's corner from the start and with no second-choice to vote for. However poorly he was treated by the media, he lost because he didn't run an effective campaign; his last-ditch efforts in IA and SC simply came too late to make up for lost ground. He led in the Rasmussen polls for a while, but squandered the opportunity. He was our best hope for restoring conservative principles to the Republican party, but I've now abandoned all hope.

Rudy's just as finished- his Super Tuesday strategy only works if he still has strong national support. Support that has diminished greatly due to his poor showing in all the states that have held primaries thus far.

Huckster is probably done as well- and thankfully so. Dishonest, populist and pandering is no way to go through life, son.

It's pretty much a McCain / Romney race now- The Devil You Know vs The Devil You Don't Know. I'd get behind Romney if I thought I could trust him, but with all the pandering, waffling and spending proposals I don't feel I can. McCain is a habitual backstabber who will continue to do so- but in predictable ways. Count me out on election day.

217 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:55:15am

re: #207 buzzsawmonkey

re: #196 LanceKates
Rudy appointed judges so liberal that the democrats in NY noted how liberal they were.
When did Rudy "appoint judges?" When he was a prosecutor? No. Prosecutors don't appoint judges.

Did he "appoint liberal judges" when he was Mayor? No. The Mayor does not appoint judges; they are elected in New York.

Did he "appoint liberal judges" when he was governor, to fill a vacant seat? No. Rudy has never been governor.

Did he "appoint liberal judges" when he went into private practice? No. Private attorneys do not appoint judges.

So just what are you talking about?

Oops.

;^)

218 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:55:41am

re: #208 ggt

re: #202 Oh no...Sand People!

molon labe

Sweet.

219 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:55:48am
220 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:56:25am

re: #209 LanceKates

re: #202 Oh no...Sand People!

he also supports (or at least helped impliment) a form of universal healthcare.

He lied about starting new taxes (He called them 'fees' you'll remember... then later had to agree that fees are taxes)

I'd put him over Rudy, but I don't know if I'd vote for Romney as a Republican Candidate.

This can be definitional - and I'm not sure I'd agree with Romney's.

But - to me - "fees" are charges pretty directly related to specific services (don't want the service, don't pay the fee and vice-versa); whereas, taxes are broad-based levies unrelated to specific services.

221 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:56:28am

re: #207 buzzsawmonkey

re: #196 LanceKates


Rudy appointed judges so liberal that the democrats in NY noted how liberal they were.

When did Rudy "appoint judges?" When he was a prosecutor? No. Prosecutors don't appoint judges.

Did he "appoint liberal judges" when he was Mayor? No. The Mayor does not appoint judges; they are elected in New York.

Did he "appoint liberal judges" when he was governor, to fill a vacant seat? No. Rudy has never been governor.

Did he "appoint liberal judges" when he went into private practice? No. Private attorneys do not appoint judges.

So just what are you talking about?


You're wrong. Giullani Judges Lean Left.

The mayor of New York appoints judges to three of the state's lowest courts, the Criminal Court and Family Court, which deal with lower-grade crimes than the state's Supreme Court, the main trial court and the Civil Court, which deals in relatively small financial disputes.

and here's how Rudy did:

A Politico review of the 75 judges Giuliani appointed to three of New York state's lower courts found that Democrats outnumbered Republicans by more than 8 to 1. One of his appointments was an officer of the International Association of Lesbian and Gay Judges. Another ruled that the state law banning liquor sales on Sundays was unconstitutional because it was insufficiently secular.

A third, an abortion-rights supporter, later made it to the federal bench in part because New York Sen. Charles E. Schumer, a liberal Democrat, said he liked her ideology.

So, before you rant about how much of an idiot I am, perhaps YOU should be a bit more educated.

222 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:56:49am

re: #213 Iron Fist

Hope you feel better soon!

223 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:57:51am

re: #217 Spiny Norman

See my 221 before you get too smug.

224 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:58:06am

re: #211 AuldTrafford

re: #203 debutaunt

I suspect you are arguing over flyspecks. It is true that almost no one wants pure anything - it is the direction that counts.

I'm not arguing. I'm just saying that I believe 100% capitalism would work beautifully.

225 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:59:10am

re: #224 debutaunt

It helped to take down the USSR, by the lead of Reagan, who will never get credit for it.

226 Cygnus  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:59:16am

re: #34 zmdavid

re: #29 Shug

re: #28 pat


Huckabee and McCain have a lot in common.


they also share 97% of DNA with the starfish


Starfish for President!

Starfish/Spongebob in 2008!

227 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:59:29am
228 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:59:30am

re: #224 debutaunt

Survival of the fittest?

229 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:59:35am

re: #212 lostlakehiker

re: #96 NFLFan

Huckabee's Fair Tax is not a fair tax. It isn't politically realizable either, because there is zero chance of getting a constitutional amendment through.

It's not fair because it double-taxes all savings. First you earn the money. Then you pay income taxes on it. Then you save some of what's left. And then Huck's tax comes along and takes 30% of that.

Fair?

It's also not fair because (and now we get into the weeds a bit) it taxes people who are only just barely getting by. Sales taxes are like that.

(...)

Cut spending, cut taxes, and the remaining injustices of the system will be bearable.

Duncan Hunter also supports the so-called "Fair Tax". There is (was) no candidate in the GOP field that I completely agree with. It has seemed like a contest for the "least objectionable" from the beginning.

230 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:59:51am
231 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 9:59:53am

Hey, how about 'dose New Joisey Giants?

232 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:00:12am

re: #216 Hollowpoint

Was with you right up to the last sentence. It is real important, I think, to have someone different from Hillary on the GOP slate. It's not McCain, and it may not be Romney. But if (and I think you're right) it is between the two, take a chance - Romney could be the real deal.

233 finallyalizard  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:00:22am

a life-long pro-life, pro-gun and anti-gay rights candidate gets your scorn while Rudy or Romney who have flip-flopped on these positions at will earn your admiration... oh yeah we are the stupid evangelicals in the party, I forgot.

234 Cygnus  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:00:23am

re: #38 jcm

re: #29 Shug

re: #28 pat

Huckabee and McCain have a lot in common.

they also share 97% of DNA with the starfish

What are you a starfishaphobe? ;-)

Would that be an echinodermaphobe? Inquiring minds want to know.

235 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:00:36am

re: #209 LanceKates

re: #202 Oh no...Sand People!

he also supports (or at least helped impliment) a form of universal healthcare.

He lied about starting new taxes (He called them 'fees' you'll remember... then later had to agree that fees are taxes)

I'd put him over Rudy, but I don't know if I'd vote for Romney as a Republican Candidate.

I'm stuck with a government forced Universal Auto Care: Auto Insurance...I go through Geico. 2 vehicles: 1 fully insured and 1 liability= $39.99 a month.

Once in the hands of the 'free market', though government is forcing me to be in the market, the cost of health insurance will have to change. When Insurances are forced to compete...we will win.

Yeah, he did increase fees.
Is he flawed in areas? Absolutely. I am voting for the lesser of flaws. I

/Just don't drive in MA and you won't have to pay a few of them.

236 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:00:41am

re: #228 ggt

re: #224 debutaunt

Survival of the fittest?

Rational self interest.

237 FoolsMate  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:00:54am

re: #172 Spiny Norman

re: #144 FoolsMate

How is Romney any different from Huckabee? They're both Big Government liberal Republicans. One is just more polished than the other.

He is a full spectrum conservative--defense, economic and social--and although not perfect, is the most conservative, viable candidate.

238 dolfan  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:01:21am

I wish Fred would make a strong statement and prove that he REALLY wants to be President. I'm not convinced he really wants the job.

Rudy is campaigning very heavily down here (in Fla.) now, but I must agree with a lot of you all who have said that his strategy to avoid the early primaries may backfire on him.

I hope I can make up my mind between Rudy and Mitt some time before I walk into the voting booth in two weeks.

Should Duncan Hunter be considered a good choice for someone's VP?

239 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:01:46am

re: #230 buzzsawmonkey

you, of course, overlooked the 8 to 1 liberal to conservative ratio.

Tell me why I ought to believe that Rudy will appoint conservative judges?

his words and actions are opposite one another.

240 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:01:47am

re: #226 Cygnus

re: #34 zmdavid

re: #29 Shug

re: #28 pat


Huckabee and McCain have a lot in common.


they also share 97% of DNA with the starfish


Starfish for President!

Starfish/Spongebob in 2008!

Just from the sheer entertainment I would vote them in.

241 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:01:58am

re: #216 Hollowpoint,

I can't disagree with you on any particular issue. I'll still pull the lever for the R. The Democrats in the running are far worse than the Republicans.

I just can't get excited about the Republicans.

242 nyc redneck  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:02:15am

re: #91 Thanos

re: #76 WriterMom

OT: New, Shiny Ezra Levant Piece: What A Strange Place Canada Is
There's a very good point about the laws of unintended consequences in that article, I've been trying to get it across to the GoV crowd to no avail. It's a lesson in why freedom must come first, and why Freedom is strength, not weakness.

thanks for posting this article. i am lol at how the chrc is so out of it's league going up against mr. levant. he is a resolute, tenacious, righteous man. the chrc doesn't stand a chance against him. one way or another he will expose their lunacy. he is standing up for all of us. i applaud his courage.

243 Yank in the EU  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:02:40am

re: #206 LanceKates

No, it's not really an "either/or" like that. We just have to deal with the fact in America right now, a serious third party means a dominant victory for the side that didn't split. A lot of the liberals Republicans, such as PA's Senator Arlen Spector, are not going to be easy to oust because they have become the respected "establishment." Getting them out means that battles have to be won on the local levels -- getting more conservatives elected. Yet having the GOP behind conservatives is an absolute necessity today in elections and more often than not we would probably accept a moderate over a leftist. Forming a third party would just help the media-acceptable, liberal, establishment types.

244 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:02:48am

Nixonian GOP campaign philosophy: run to the right in the Primaries, run to the center in the General. All Republican nominees have done this since him, but one.

245 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:03:00am

re: #235 Oh no...Sand People!

I support Romney over Rudy.

But I am very, and vocally, upset with the Republican Party for ignoring Duncan Hunter to follow the whims of the MSM.

246 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:03:41am
247 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:03:53am

re: #241 Iron Fist

re: #216 Hollowpoint,

I can't disagree with you on any particular issue. I'll still pull the lever for the R. The Democrats in the running are far worse than the Republicans.

I just can't get excited about the Republicans.

We only had 7 years to come up with someone.

248 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:04:35am

re: #243 Yank in the EU

so you suggest we wait?

Each election will be worse than the one before it.

There is never a good time to procrastinate.

We should have made this move back when conservatives started leaving the republican party with Perot.

THAT should have been the sign. and it started to be, with the Republican win in Congress a few years later.

But they squandered it and continued to pander to the left.

249 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:04:41am

re: #245 LanceKates

re: #235 Oh no...Sand People!

I support Romney over Rudy.

But I am very, and vocally, upset with the Republican Party for ignoring Duncan Hunter to follow the whims of the MSM.

I was for Tancredo starting, then a closet Fred, but Romney or Rudy are on the table now.

250 dolfan  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:04:58am

re: #245 LanceKates

Thanks, can I just say, "ditto"?

251 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:06:16am

re: #230 buzzsawmonkey

By the way... since you were the one who inferred that I didn't know what I was talking about, I still have not seen a retraction.

252 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:06:28am

re: #224 debutaunt

I certainly agree that it's a good goal to work toward. Again, a bit of a definitional problem: if you define 100% capitalism as a 100% absence of government, it may not be workable. Depends on what role you see fit for government to play.

I think the rule of law is important (especially contract law) and you must have an enforcement apparatus for that. Also, some truth-in-advertising regulation can be important - markets function on information, and function quite imperfectly on false information.

For example, rather than require dox to have medical licenses, it would be appropriate to require dox to disclose objective evidence of their training and/or competence.

253 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:06:52am
254 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:07:30am

re: #249 Oh no...Sand People!

I wanted Hunter/tancredo.

Then I said I'd settle for Hunter/Rudy.

Then Thompson/Rudy.

255 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:07:36am

re: #250 dolfan

always.

256 Steffan  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:08:20am

Hmmmm.... maybe Huck wasn't pandering on the Confederate flag.

In Arkansas, they aren't just honoring Martin Luther King, Jr. today.

They're also honoring Robert E. Lee.

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. – Arkansas state employees will have Monday off, in honor of Martin Luther King Jr. – and General Robert E. Lee, commanding officer of the Confederate Army.

Every year, the doors of the state Capitol bear notices that offices will be closed the third Monday of January to honor Dr. King and Gen. Lee. Arkansas is one of three states to commemorate both men with a state holiday. The others are Alabama and Mississippi.

"I know my students that come to the university seem to come with a bit of nostalgia for the Old South ... particularly Robert E. Lee, who has the mystique of being the man who only reluctantly seceded," said University of Arkansas history professor Jeannie M. Whayne. "He's become, well, one book's title says it all, The Marble Man, the ideal of the Southerner."

The pull of Civil War history, particularly the Confederacy, remains strong in Arkansas. The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette typically runs a long editorial noting the general's birthday each year. Dr. King receives a similar tribute.

The hagiography began while he was still alive and commanding the Army of Northern Virginia -- but within five years of his death, he came to symbolize all that was good and noble in the South. For a lot of people, he still symbolizes that.

257 FoolsMate  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:08:34am

re: #221 LanceKates

Nice rebuttal.

258 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:08:53am

re: #249 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #245 LanceKates


re: #235 Oh no...Sand People!

I support Romney over Rudy.

But I am very, and vocally, upset with the Republican Party for ignoring Duncan Hunter to follow the whims of the MSM.


I was for Tancredo starting, then a closet Fred, but Romney or Rudy are on the table now.


_______________________-
I will hold my nose and vote for whoever runs against Hillary.
No more Clintons, and their lying, rotten, crooked, compadres! . . Sandy Berger, Janet Reno, et al.

259 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:09:34am

re: #254 LanceKates

re: #249 Oh no...Sand People!

I wanted Hunter/tancredo.

Then I said I'd settle for Hunter/Rudy.

Then Thompson/Rudy.

If any presidential campaign operatives monitor this site:

Put Bolton as VEEP...BOLTON as VEEP. You will get my vote.

260 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:09:44am

re: #233 finallyalizard,

Huckabee is pro-life and pro-gun. No doubt on that.

He is also a liberal on immagration. That's a hard one to stomach.

He taxes like a Liberal. That's a hard one to stomach.

He has zero to offer in foreign policy. Obambi is the same, but we are fighting for this side of the fence.

I'll work for him, if he is the Republican nominee. But we have so much better to offer.

261 Hollowpoint  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:11:15am

re: #232 AuldTrafford

If Romney wins the nomination and gets elected President, I hope I'm wrong about him being a Big Government moderate like GW Bush. If I'm not, then his term only pushes the Republican party (and hence the country) further to the left than it's already gone.

Republicans didn't learn their lesson after losing Congress in '06- they're still eager to spend as much of our money and grow the federal government as big as they can. The Dems sure as hell don't deserve to win, but I'm not sure a Republican with questionable conservative credentials does either.

I don't want a Dem to win (be it Hillary or Obama), but if they do then perhaps Republicans (politicians, party leaders and voters alike) will get the message that we conservatives are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

In previous elections, I'd have been perfectly fine with pulling the lever for Romney, but after watching the Republicans in Washington screw us time and again I'm ready to sit this one out for the first time in my life. Not that it matters much anyways- Minnesota always goes blue.

262 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:11:22am

re: #236 debutaunt

Agreed :)!

263 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:11:46am

re: #247 debutaunt,

No doubt. I am extremely dissapointed in the Republicans. I have given them a lot (to me) of money.

This is the best they can do?

264 Peter Verkooijen  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:12:36am

re: #80 LanceKates
Rudy Giuliani is an urban Catholic conservative. You need to take the blinkers off.

The hardcore Christian gun-loving red state heartland conservative base is important to the Republican party, but if that's all you're going to focus on Republicans are going to lose.

Giuliani really is in the best position to reconstruct something like the Reagan coalition and bring urban centers, Florida, New York and California, conservative (non-socialist) Democrats and independents back into the Republican party.

265 funkyfantom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:12:42am

re: #260 Iron Fist

re: #233 finallyalizard,

Huckabee is pro-life and pro-gun. No doubt on that.

He is also a liberal on immagration. That's a hard one to stomach.

He taxes like a Liberal. That's a hard one to stomach.

He has zero to offer in foreign policy. Obambi is the same, but we are fighting for this side of the fence.

I'll work for him, if he is the Republican nominee. But we have so much better to offer.

You forgot to mention that he enjoys leaning on parole boards to release serial murderer/rapists early. The guy is just full of forgiveness for crimes for which he didn't happen to be the victim.

266 Cygnus  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:12:47am

re: #201 imtoast

re: #191 Adrenalyn

-If you have jam for my toast I'll take that coffee!

I prefer tea but I'll take the toast with butter and raspberry jam!
And yes, I got flamed here too! It took 2 visits to the hairdresser to get rid of all the roasted hair follicles. :~)

267 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:13:07am

re: #254 LanceKates

re: #249 Oh no...Sand People!

I wanted Hunter/tancredo.

Then I said I'd settle for Hunter/Rudy.

Then Thompson/Rudy.

Why would you want Rudy Giuliani anywhere on the ballot when you spend so much time here bashing him?

268 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:13:22am

re: #261 Hollowpoint

I agree. Problem is, someday it's going to be too late to turn back - and I fear it may come with Hillary - especially if she gives away so much candy that she makes two terms.

269 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:13:48am

re: #114 LanceKates

I used that term with regard to his leftist positions on illegal immigration, his leftist position with regard to his comments on "corporate greed", and his comment on bringing the Constitution in line with the Bible. Don't get me wrong...I'm a Christian...but I'm not interested in living under a theocracy. Christ himself said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's..." The problem with leftist ideology is it attempts to turn politics into the religion of secular humanism. Using Christianity like a cloak to impose this sort of tyranny upon us is the reason I used the term "alleged Christianity" to describe Huckabee.

270 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:14:07am

re: #263 Iron Fist

re: #247 debutaunt,

No doubt. I am extremely dissapointed in the Republicans. I have given them a lot (to me) of money.

This is the best they can do?

If you hate America, Vote Democrat.
If you don't want to do anything about it, Vote Republican.

Sucks, but that is really how it's been.

271 Cygnus  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:14:39am

re: #213 Iron Fist

re: #122 Nevergiveup,

Hey, man, I'm not working today because I'm sick as shit. I dunno about other peoples' excuses :-)

Does s**t get sick from e coli?
Hope you feel better soon!

272 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:14:41am
273 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:14:53am

re: #267 Spiny Norman

re: #254 LanceKates

re: #249 Oh no...Sand People!

I wanted Hunter/tancredo.

Then I said I'd settle for Hunter/Rudy.

Then Thompson/Rudy.

Why would you want Rudy Giuliani anywhere on the ballot when you spend so much time here bashing him?

Find a Rudy bash from me?

274 zmdavid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:14:53am

Just remember, if you are a Republican and disillusioned, the MSM are doing their jobs.

(Is MSM singular or plural?)

275 Yank in the EU  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:15:08am

re: #248 LanceKates

so you suggest we wait?

No, I don't see how that follows at all.

My only point was about the actual consequences of forming a third party. It follows from what I said only that we have to come up with a better solution than the one suggested. Something like: plan a new strategy to oust the moderates.

276 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:15:11am
277 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:15:19am
278 Hollowpoint  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:15:26am

re: #241 Iron Fist

re: #216 Hollowpoint,

I can't disagree with you on any particular issue. I'll still pull the lever for the R. The Democrats in the running are far worse than the Republicans.

I just can't get excited about the Republicans.

That's a completely legitimate stance. I'm not trying to convince anyone to sit it out as I plan to- just venting out of frustration mostly.

279 Peter Verkooijen  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:16:22am

re: #227 Rodan

re: #210 RTLM
Agreed. McCain can defeat Hillary in the general. He just has to remind people that when he was a POW, she was supporting Radical Anti-American causes. It will be interestng.

I don't care what the polls say. A geriatric Republic will lose against Obama and probably against Clinton as well.

280 MrMom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:16:22am

re: #246 Rodan

devopured


Devo pureed?
Bad band. Good food prep.

281 Lucius Septimius  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:16:40am

re: #263 Iron Fist

re: #247 debutaunt,

No doubt. I am extremely dissapointed in the Republicans. I have given them a lot (to me) of money.

This is the best they can do?

It would seem so. The party has suffered for a very long time from a complete lack of imagination. I think it goes back to the Nixon era -- they got walloped by leftist backlash and decided that the best strategy would be to try to follow the lead of the left on all things. At a certain level, I gather they think that the country is inexorably headed in a leftis direction and that they need to follow along. Sure, they can talk a good story about "conservative" values, wrap themselves in the flag, and sing hymns loudly in church, but then they bend over backwards to play nicey-nice with the dems on legislation.

Meanwhile, negotiating with the dems is like negotiating with terrorists -- you're appeasing people who have a sense of infinite entitlement and take your kindness as a badge of weakness.

We need some people with some brains and imagination, who are not afraid to speak the truth and who do not live by the daily polls. Unfortunately Reagan is dead, and I don't feel so well myself.

282 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:16:53am
283 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:17:05am

re: #273 Oh no...Sand People!

(PIMF) Find a Rudy bash from me.

284 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:17:37am

re: #266 Cygnus

I have some pumpkin jam that is awesome. Or Strawberry-rhubarb --I could bring some of that.

285 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:18:00am

re: #221 LanceKates

NY City residents are 80% Dem to Republican... So that type of appintment actually mirrors the population here...

286 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:18:05am

re: #277 Rodan

re: #268 AuldTrafford

Read my link above about Hillary's calling for more government in the economy. I'm not economically conservative, but her ideas are scary and very Statist.

Economic conservatism is, basically, economic freedom rather than socialism - so if you're not an economic conservative, you should be.

And everything about Hillary is scary.

287 Hollowpoint  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:19:09am

re: #274 zmdavid

Just remember, if you are a Republican and disillusioned, the MSM are doing their jobs.

(Is MSM singular or plural?)

Ridiculous. The MSM has been hostile to Republicans since approximately forever. Republicans like myself are disillusioned because of the actions of Republicans in office, not the MSM.

288 Lucius Septimius  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:19:16am

re: #272 buzzsawmonkey

That doesn't sound like a particularly damning record to me, even though it is feverishly written to appear so.

That was my sense of the piece as well. We need to be mindful of inflamitory rhetoric and resist her subtle charms.

289 Cygnus  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:19:17am

re: #284 ggt

re: #266 Cygnus

I have some pumpkin jam that is awesome. Or Strawberry-rhubarb --I could bring some of that.

Pumpkin jam? Never heard of it - but it sounds tasty!

290 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:19:33am

re: #273 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #267 Spiny Norman
re: #254 LanceKates
re: #249 Oh no...Sand People!

I wanted Hunter/tancredo.

Then I said I'd settle for Hunter/Rudy.

Then Thompson/Rudy.

Why would you want Rudy Giuliani anywhere on the ballot when you spend so much time here bashing him?
Find a Rudy bash from me?

?

I just re-read the quote in question, and it is indeed LanceKates that wrote what I was responding to. I should have responded directly to his original comment. Sorry for the confusion.

291 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:19:35am
292 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:20:45am

re: #252 AuldTrafford

re: #224 debutaunt

I certainly agree that it's a good goal to work toward. Again, a bit of a definitional problem: if you define 100% capitalism as a 100% absence of government, it may not be workable. Depends on what role you see fit for government to play.

I think the rule of law is important (especially contract law) and you must have an enforcement apparatus for that. Also, some truth-in-advertising regulation can be important - markets function on information, and function quite imperfectly on false information.

For example, rather than require dox to have medical licenses, it would be appropriate to require dox to disclose objective evidence of their training and/or competence.

Ideally, the government should protect us with armed forces and with the legal system.

If my company sells defective parts, the law should protect the buyer and the market will likely stop buying my bad product.

The medical profession would gladly police itself to show the market it is worthwhile and safe.

I'm of the opinion that being a nanny state works out poorly for everyone except the nannies.

293 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:20:47am
294 FoolsMate  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:21:02am

re: #291 Rodan

re: #279 Peter Verkooijen

Romney will be destroyed far worse. Even if McCain loses it will be close and narrow. Romney will be buried in a landslide resulting in a massive Democratic majorities in the house and senate.

You base that on what?

295 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:21:23am

If another Katrina-like event or another 9/11 happens, who do you want in charge?

WE need someone who can LEAD.

Only one candidate has a proven record in that category:

Guiliani

296 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:22:26am
297 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:22:28am

re: #289 Cygnus

dash of cinnamon--juice sweetened --last Fall's harvest --yummy!

298 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:22:29am
299 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:22:56am

re: #293 Rodan

She would make a wonderful Empress.

300 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:23:48am

re: #291 Rodan

re: #279 Peter Verkooijen

Romney will be destroyed far worse. Even if McCain loses it will be close and narrow. Romney will be buried in a landslide resulting in a massive Democratic majorities in the house and senate.

I'm not so sure about that. The Democratic primaries will get even uglier than they are now, and you can almost bank on a repeat of "Chicago '68" at their Convention. The "Surrender Now!" anti-war base is really pissed.

301 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:23:55am
302 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:24:36am

re: #290 Spiny Norman

I think a long while back I commented on his 3rd marriage...but that's about it.

303 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:24:37am

re: #97 ggt

Romney looks and acts like a Kennedy --I think that is all they breed in MA.

On principle, I'm not voting for anyone from MA or AK.

ggt, I'm sorry, but Romney in no way resembles a Kennedy bred in Massachusetts. Look at Romney's bio and see where he was born and grew up, and get back to me.

/The man's from Bloomfield Hills, not Boston.

304 Lucius Septimius  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:24:52am

re: #299 ggt

re: #293 Rodan

She would make a wonderful Empress.

I wonder if she has a thing for horses?

305 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:25:46am

I think that we are at the point now where we have to start looking at this whole thing as a race to see who can beat Hitlery... She's winning the Dem nomination... So whomever comes out fro mthe R side will have to be able to beat her...

I didn't think this way before but now I am truly concernd about a Hillary presidency...

306 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:26:13am

re: #292 debutaunt

Yes, in principle. Again, some definitional points: one is "defective" - an easy claim to make. But if you (mfr) disclosed the "defect" (something short of perfection) and the buyer bought anyway (presumably because you offered a lower price), the market has worked and there should be no remedy.

Two is "protection". There are remedies, and there are remedies. If you mean "make whole" that's one thing; if you meant, "set an example by awarding a windfall", that is yet another.

I suspect we agree substantially more than not - just want to clarify.

307 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:26:25am
308 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:26:41am

re: #146 Iron Fist

I truly hope you are right and I am wrong. Though I know it would take a constitutional amendment, the recent shenanigans in NJ (I think it was) and movements around the country where state legislatures (all in places under demonrat control) are voting to change their internal electoral laws such that their state electoral college votes are either split or given in toto to the winner of the national popular vote (regardless of the vote tallies within their own state) make me very worried. When I hear supposedly intelligent physician colleagues at work blandly state that the Electoral College serves no purpose in these "modern times", I am afraid I will soon be mourning the loss of the greatest experiment in freedom the world has ever known.

I know I'm sounding exceedingly pesimistic this morning...but I fear the coming mobocracy and what it will mean for my children.

Maybe I'll feel better after another pot of coffee....

309 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:27:34am
310 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:29:00am

re: #302 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #290 Spiny Norman

I think a long while back I commented on his 3rd marriage...but that's about it.

See my #290. I was responding to LanceKates #254 (which was a reply to your #249).

311 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:29:19am

re: #281 Lucius Septimius,

I cannot disagree in any part. The Republicans talk a good fight, but when the rubber meets the road, they cave. They want the L³iberals to like them.

That ain't happining.

I try my best, but they ain't waking up. They're a lot of us out here. All they need to do is step up.

312 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:29:50am

re: #310 Spiny Norman

No problemo.

I need to attempt to be productive. Later all.

313 redstateredneck  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:30:03am

re: #305 tfc3rid

I think that we are at the point now where we have to start looking at this whole thing as a race to see who can beat Hitlery... She's winning the Dem nomination... So whomever comes out fro mthe R side will have to be able to beat her...

I didn't think this way before but now I am truly concernd about a Hillary presidency...

Why the msm is pushing McCain & Huckabee. Neither of them can beat Hillary.

314 Yank in the EU  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:30:41am

re: #276 taxfreekiller

TFK: what I mean is this. Practically every time we have an election it comes down to, say, %49.7372293 to %50.322232. This is a result, obviously, of the age-old two-party elections and the general liberal-conservative split. When a third party enters in seriously, it's simply a godsend for the side who didn't lose voters to that party. The trouble is that the Dems today are not represented by Joe Lieberman and are too freaking leftist. The times are in fact so perilous in regard to the terrorism and jihadism that we can't afford to hope that the Democratic side splits into their own factions as well. Folks like the Clintons who seem to have little by way of principle but terrific in their desire for power would sweep up in such a scenario and move the country towards Euro-socialism and military retreat from radical Islam.

315 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:31:06am
316 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:31:26am

re: #309 Rodan

I know how she will go... At times in her speeches her mask comes off... I think she will win because of the media and the immense play for her... Our country and our way of life would be in great trouble...

This website would likely not survive a Hillary presidency/Dem Congress...

317 Peter Verkooijen  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:31:27am

re: #291 Rodan

re: #279 Peter Verkooijen
Romney will be destroyed far worse. Even if McCain loses it will be close and narrow. Romney will be buried in a landslide resulting in a massive Democratic majorities in the house and senate.

That's why Rudy Giuliani is our best and only hope.

318 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:31:41am

re: #178 experiencedtraveller

Sorry...Ron Paul is absolutely deserving of not only ridicule, but utter contempt.

319 TMF  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:32:27am

Any republican (except Ron Paul) is acceptable.

Victory over the defeatocrats and clintonistas by any means necessary! (yes, even a Huckabee presidency!)

320 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:32:33am

re: #306 AuldTrafford

re: #292 debutaunt

Yes, in principle. Again, some definitional points: one is "defective" - an easy claim to make. But if you (mfr) disclosed the "defect" (something short of perfection) and the buyer bought anyway (presumably because you offered a lower price), the market has worked and there should be no remedy.

Two is "protection". There are remedies, and there are remedies. If you mean "make whole" that's one thing; if you meant, "set an example by awarding a windfall", that is yet another.

I suspect we agree substantially more than not - just want to clarify.

If someone buys my crappy defective parts, he's likely the last person to buy my stuff and I'm out of business, as I should be. He should not become more than whole via Edwards and the looney law as it stands.

321 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:33:12am
322 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:34:01am
323 Lucius Septimius  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:34:06am

I've been worried about Hillary for a long time. It's no mystery that she is immensely ambitious and will do nearly anything to get more power. (though here I must stop short of the whole Vince Foster conspiracy theory). She feels entitled to power in a way that is deeply disturbing -- she is a spoiled brat who has never grown up, who wants "daddy" (i.e. American Patriarchal Society) to give her everything she wants. She the princess, dammit, and it is her right. And if she doesn't get it, she is going to pout, and yell, and cry, and stamp her little feet (albeit through the slightly more passive-aggressive means of legislation and litigation) until she gets her way. (actually, lots of politicians, male and female, are spoiled brats, but she's really over the top)

That's the thing -- she is not nearly so smart or well-put together as she wants everyone to think. And people glom onto her because they are attracted to her success, in particular her ability to acheive things far greater than her intelligence, personality, experience, or other characteristics would seem to make possible.

Consequently, their is something miraculous about Lady Macbeth of Little Rock, and for those who have no god other than power and celebrity to worship, she provide a focus for their need for worship.

324 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:34:34am

re: #260 Iron Fist

Part of huckabee's liberalism is that he was in a WHOLLY liberal-run state who wouldn't approve anything he did and wouldn't pass a budget without tax increases (though, budget costs in his state didn't raise as much as in many other states)...

So in an emergency session to pass a budget he made his so famous, but often twisted, statement about agreeing to vote for a tax increase.

325 Lucius Septimius  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:35:10am

re: #311 Iron Fist

re: #281 Lucius Septimius,

I cannot disagree in any part. The Republicans talk a good fight, but when the rubber meets the road, they cave. They want the L³iberals to like them.

That ain't happining.

I try my best, but they ain't waking up. They're a lot of us out here. All they need to do is step up.


The Republicans are politically codependent. They need serious therepy. That or a good whack on the head.

326 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:35:34am

re: #303 Honorary Yooper

I think there is a Detroit/Joe Kennedy connection . . .

But that is beside my point. He's been accepted in MA, that means, the Kennedy clan has him in some way, shape or form.

327 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:36:11am

It was kind of refreshing to go get lunch and hear Rush saying what I've been saying.

It is poor form that the Republicans are putting up liberal candidates with the only defense of 'they're not democrats'

328 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:36:19am

re: #308 Babydoc97,

I know what you are feeling. The L³iberals want to change the Electoral College because that could have tilted a close election to the Democrats.

They would quickly change their tune, were it to tilt to a Republican.

They have no honor. They have no principals.

That is our enemy.

Fortunately, the Founders anticipated such an attack. Our Constitution is safe, so long as we respect it as the Law of the Land.

329 Peter Verkooijen  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:36:58am

re: #309 Rodan

re: #305 tfc3rid
Read my link above and you will be very scared. She's going a Statist route!

That's nothing new. The problem is that a lot of Dems - working class, traditional, heartland, small town - simply don't understand anti-American socialists have taken over their party decades ago. They never see the academic and activist machines behind it.

330 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:37:00am

re: #314 Yank in the EU

re: #276 taxfreekiller

TFK: what I mean is this. Practically every time we have an election it comes down to, say, %49.7372293 to %50.322232. This is a result, obviously, of the age-old two-party elections and the general liberal-conservative split. When a third party enters in seriously, it's simply a godsend for the side who didn't lose voters to that party. The trouble is that the Dems today are not represented by Joe Lieberman and are too freaking leftist. The times are in fact so perilous in regard to the terrorism and jihadism that we can't afford to hope that the Democratic side splits into their own factions as well. Folks like the Clintons who seem to have little by way of principle but terrific in their desire for power would sweep up in such a scenario and move the country towards Euro-socialism and military retreat from radical Islam.

Since the early 20th Century (TR's "Bull Moose Party"), a significant third party candidate has done nothing but hand a plurality victory to the Democrat. All marginally "viable" third party candidates draw more voters from the GOP, which is historically less "Party First" than the Democrats.

331 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:37:04am

re: #325 Lucius Septimius

Too many decades of being the minority party. When they got the majority, they didn't know what to do with it and still pandered to the Left.

332 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:37:13am

re: #320 debutaunt

My point is that buyers often buy an "inferior" (less-than-perfect) product because they are getting a deal, and think they can complain about a "defect" when they get hurt by their own (informed) decision. Yes, if the product is "crappy", when the buyer was led by advertising to believe it good, there should be a remedy.

The law today, however, often favors buyers in the former category - on the deep-pockets, not responsibility, theory.

333 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:37:14am
334 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:37:22am
335 ggt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:37:35am

gotta go folks --have a great day!

336 macduff  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:37:44am

My problem with Huckabee is that he gives Christianity a bad name. It's all well and good to be a man (or woman) of faith, in fact I find it preferable in a president. The problem arises when one makes it the central tenet of one's campaign.

I can't tell when he's in Baptist preacher mode from when he's in presidential candidate mode and that's a problem for me.

We have a lot of different faiths in this country and a candidate should be running to be president of ALL of the people, regardless of their faith, or lack thereof. When a candidate makes statements about "taking the country back for Christ", as Huck has done, that's way over the line, in my estimation.

We get quite enough of that theocracy crap from the Middle East. Take a lot of the speeches he has made as a candidate, remove Jesus and insert Allah and he sounds like just another Islamofascist. Theocracy is bad and changing the particular theology does not make it less so.

337 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:38:43am

re: #329 Peter Verkooijen

Democrats have supported and harbored communists since the end of world War 2.

McCarthy was right, so he was demonized.

Nixon was right, so he was demonized.

338 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:38:59am

re: #259 Oh no...Sand People!

I agree. Bolton would be a great choice. Hunter would be good as well.

339 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:39:55am

When I ask people around here what draws them to Hillary, they consistently say that she is a great leader with a lot of experience. When asked about the experience, they say she was Frist Lady.

They then say theat it would be wonderful to have a woman be the leader of the free world, giving the power to a woman. This of course in no regard for the fact that our global enemy sees women as weak and inferior to men.

They then say that Hillary gets beat up by the ol' boys too much and she's very strong...

People here see her as an icon and are willing to vote for her solely because she is a she...

340 AZDave  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:39:55am

re: #12 Watcher

When Huck said that he plans "to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards," that was his swan song.

This is why I believe that no clergy should hold political office not matter what religion they profess to belong to. For when it comes time to press "the button" we don't need him/her asking the question "What would Jesus/Moses do?"

341 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:40:19am

re: #317 Peter Verkooijen

re: #291 Rodan
re: #279 Peter Verkooijen
Romney will be destroyed far worse. Even if McCain loses it will be close and narrow. Romney will be buried in a landslide resulting in a massive Democratic majorities in the house and senate.
That's why Rudy Giuliani is our best and only hope.

Hey, I like Rudy on National Security, but he ain't no Obi-Wan.

;^)

342 zmdavid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:40:32am

re: #328 Iron Fist
Exactly.

Also if the Electoral College were abolished and there were a close election, wouldn't a national recount be fun? Think Florida 2000 x 50.

It would be easier to cheat without the Electoral College. The big Democrat machines in the large cities could turn the election for the entire country, not just a few states.

343 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:40:44am

re: #332 AuldTrafford

re: #320 debutaunt

My point is that buyers often buy an "inferior" (less-than-perfect) product because they are getting a deal, and think they can complain about a "defect" when they get hurt by their own (informed) decision. Yes, if the product is "crappy", when the buyer was led by advertising to believe it good, there should be a remedy.

The law today, however, often favors buyers in the former category - on the deep-pockets, not responsibility, theory.

The lawyers have created a victim society on the lookout for loopholes.

344 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:40:46am

re: #333 buzzsawmonkey

I don't support Huckabee. I just don't see him as the evil that you seem to.


I also haven't seen a retraction from you about Rudy and the Judges. I believe you were wrong and I was right.... yet you haven't mentioned that... you just continued on the attack.

Pretending it didn't happen? Or are you too afraid to admit that I was right because it may show me in a positive enough like that I might accidently know something?

345 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:41:00am

re: #338 Carolmill

Bolton would be an excellent Secretary of State... Boy would he clean house!

346 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:42:10am

re: #342 zmdavid

Which is the reason for the Electoral College in the first place... It's the problem in not educating young people about the reason for the EC in the first place...

347 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:42:42am

re: #345 tfc3rid

I would actually be excited again by the Republican candidate (fill in the blank) if he chose Bolton as VP!

348 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:42:47am

re: #343 debutaunt

As I thought, no disagreement. You're exactly right.

349 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:43:10am

re: #347 Carolmill

I think the VP candidate will be a key...

350 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:43:12am
351 macduff  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:43:47am

re: #342 zmdavid

re: #328 Iron Fist
Exactly.

Also if the Electoral College were abolished and there were a close election, wouldn't a national recount be fun? Think Florida 2000 x 50.

It would be easier to cheat without the Electoral College. The big Democrat machines in the large cities could turn the election for the entire country, not just a few states.

More evidence of genius in the Founders.

352 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:44:09am

re: #346 tfc3rid

On the blog I post threads on, there is alot of talk about getting rid of the EC because it promotes voter fraud (which is how Bush got elected)

They don't listen to reason...

to throw a vote by fraud with an EC, you have to committ fraud in a BUNCH of states, to a huge degree in each.

To committ fraud without an EC, where it is just popular vote, you only have to hit 2 or 3 big cities....

353 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:44:14am

re: #350 Rodan

Will a GOP candidate be willing to really dig deep into the treasure trove of scandal that is Hillary's life?

354 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:44:28am

re: #345 tfc3rid

re: #338 Carolmill

Bolton would be an excellent Secretary of State... Boy would he clean house!

He'd certainly give it the "old college try", but I wouldn't wager real money on his success. The "diplomacy for its own sake, damn the results" bureaucracy is deeply entrenched.

Why do you think Bush's foreign policy has morphed into Bill Clinton's?

355 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:44:37am

re: #350 Rodan
I've notice that when Hillary supporters speak to the media, they don't appear to have a lot of enthusiasm for her... they seem to speak in a monotone as if reading from a script.

356 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:44:41am

re: #348 AuldTrafford

re: #343 debutaunt

As I thought, no disagreement. You're exactly right.

Then we both are. It drives me nuts when people think that mucking up capitalism with some socialism will improve it.

357 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:45:16am

re: #353 tfc3rid

She's a woman. As such, she has victim status making any attacks against her instantly turn the attacker into someone mean.

358 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:45:17am

re: #356 debutaunt

Again, spot on.

359 Peter Verkooijen  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:45:35am

re: #300 Spiny Norman

re: #291 Rodan
... The Democratic primaries will get even uglier than they are now, and you can almost bank on a repeat of "Chicago '68" at their Convention. The "Surrender Now!" anti-war base is really pissed.

I would not count on it. The war is rapidly disappearing as an issue. Smelling victory the left will happily, giddely line up behind either Obama or Clinton. They'll probably be on the same ticket anyway.

360 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:45:46am

re: #352 LanceKates

The EC levels the playing field among states to some degree...

I like the winner take all aspect of it... It makes a presidential election special in that it is 50 individual elections...

361 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:45:48am
362 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:46:06am

re: #354 Spiny Norman

re: #345 tfc3rid


re: #338 Carolmill

Bolton would be an excellent Secretary of State... Boy would he clean house!


He'd certainly give it the "old college try", but I wouldn't wager real money on his success. The "diplomacy for its own sake, damn the results" bureaucracy is deeply entrenched.

Why do you think Bush's foreign policy has morphed into Bill Clinton's?

Leftover Clinton employees?

363 Lucius Septimius  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:46:10am

re: #339 tfc3rid

The anthropologist Clifford Geertz argued that we chose political leaders not based on their objective characteristics, but on account of the extent to which they represent our image of what a leader should be. That is not to say that it's all a shell game -- it is possible for a person to be a genuinely capable leader and outwardly exhibit the traits we find desirable -- but ultimately our choices end up saying more about what we want the leader to be and less about who the leader really is.

Hillary is very good at playing to a particular generation's ideal of political leadership. She plays the part very well, despite the fact she has hardly any genuine experience. You're right to call her "iconic" because that's what her supporters are attracted to -- the image they project upon her based on the symbols she represents. When pressed, they have to come up with a rational justification; when they can't, there is always the "you're sexist" retort. Not an argument, but shockingly effective (all men are trained from birth to fear women's anger)

BTW, it's not all that different from the Ross Perot phenom. No one knew who we really was or what he stood far, but durn it, didn't he look smart and in control (in a folksy grandfatherly sort of way) with those charts.

Political idolotry, plain and simple.

364 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:46:19am

re: #356 debutaunt

Germany tried it. ended up with 30% unemployment.

Sweden, denmark, Finland... their economies aren't really booming.

Even with ours in this little decline, you still have to add up a BUNCH of european countries to match us.

365 funkyfantom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:46:44am

re: #279 Peter Verkooijen

re: #227 Rodan


re: #210 RTLM
Agreed. McCain can defeat Hillary in the general. He just has to remind people that when he was a POW, she was supporting Radical Anti-American causes. It will be interestng.

I don't care what the polls say. A geriatric Republic will lose against Obama and probably against Clinton as well.

How does that explain Reagan or Eisenhower? Is it not possible that there are some intelligent voters out there who might not prefer someone right out of diapers? ( And I don't mean Depends.)

366 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:46:45am

re: #354 Spiny Norman

Because he was an idiot not to get rid of the entrenched bureaucracy in either State or the FBI or CIA... Which is one of the reasons were were socked in the jaw on 9/11.

367 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:46:50am

re: #360 tfc3rid

yes indeed, I agree.

And I defend it as such. heh.

368 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:47:22am

re: #212 lostlakehiker

I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that the Fair Tax taxes income. My understanding is that the purpose of the fair tax is to totally eliminate income taxes and replace it with a consumption tax on everything except staple food items. How is that unfair? You buy something, you pay tax. If you have more money to buy things, you pay more taxes. No more scrambling for tax shelters, deductions, nor pulling your hair out every April trying to figure out which IRS form you need in triplicate to shave another couple of dollars off their extortion. No more of this insane nonsense about child tax credits that only apply if you don't make enough money to actually support your children.

The real beauty of replacing an income tax with a consumption tax is two-fold. First, we will be reminded of just how much the government is taking from us (and wasting) every time we buy something rather than once a year when we file income taxes. Secondly, all the folks cheating the tax system via the under-the-table economy will now be paying into the tax system.

Look up the origin of the so-called "progressive income tax" system of economic enslavement. You might like to learn that Karl Marx was one of the originators of the idea of this abomination. (Read the 1950-ish book, 'The Naked Communist' to see more on that.)

That being said, I still don't support Huckabee...but I love the Fair Tax.

369 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:47:50am

re: #357 LanceKates

Same with Obama... If you say something against him, you're a racist...

Either way, the Dem presidetial candidate will be a Liberal orgasm... A woman or a Black-American...

370 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:47:54am

re: #352 LanceKates

re: #346 tfc3rid

On the blog I post threads on, there is alot of talk about getting rid of the EC because it promotes voter fraud (which is how Bush got elected)

They don't listen to reason...

to throw a vote by fraud with an EC, you have to committ fraud in a BUNCH of states, to a huge degree in each.

To committ fraud without an EC, where it is just popular vote, you only have to hit 2 or 3 big cities....

Chicago writ large.

371 Yank in the EU  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:48:08am

re: #330 Spiny Norman

Yep, AND, such third partiers strengthen establishment moderates because they benefit by default from the fracturing of the more conservative and more principled reformers.

This doesn't mean that we are locked into being led by milquetoasts -- not at all.

It does mean that people with more conservative ideas and values have a lot of work to do in terms of getting local politicians elected, lobbying business, caucusing, etc. More principled groups by their nature have an uphill battle against the compromising heroes of the leftist media, such as the Marxist rhetoritician John McCain.

372 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:48:15am

re: #362 debutaunt

re: #354 Spiny Norman
re: #345 tfc3rid
re: #338 Carolmill

Bolton would be an excellent Secretary of State... Boy would he clean house!

He'd certainly give it the "old college try", but I wouldn't wager real money on his success. The "diplomacy for its own sake, damn the results" bureaucracy is deeply entrenched.

Why do you think Bush's foreign policy has morphed into Bill Clinton's?

Leftover Clinton employees?

Try, leftover Carter employees.

373 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:48:49am
374 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:49:28am
375 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:49:35am

re: #361 Rodan

Another part of the problem is that the Republican Paty is out of touch. They still push ideas from the Reagan era, Reagan was a great President but that was 20 years ago. Times have changed and so has society. The GOP needs to update to reflect the times. 1980 was a long time ago.

His moral center would work quite nicely right now. It's probably why we yearn for someone like him.

376 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:49:49am

re: #370 Honorary Yooper

Chicago, NYC, LA, Miami and you're done...

377 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:49:49am
378 Peter Verkooijen  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:50:33am

re: #365 funkyfantom

re: #279 Peter Verkooijen
re: #227 Rodan
re: #210 RTLM
Agreed. McCain can defeat Hillary in the general. He just has to remind people that when he was a POW, she was supporting Radical Anti-American causes. It will be interestng.

I don't care what the polls say. A geriatric Republic will lose against Obama and probably against Clinton as well.

How does that explain Reagan or Eisenhower? Is it not possible that there are some intelligent voters out there who might not prefer someone right out of diapers? ( And I don't mean Depends.)

It always depends on the candidate of course. McCain as Republican the candidate feels like Bob Dole all over again; it's his turn, we don't have anyone else we like, we're not gonna win anyway, so what the hell, let him have his moment of glory before retirement.

379 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:51:11am

re: #368 Babydoc97

LostLakeHiker is long-gone, I think. One big problem with the Fair Tax is that it will not eliminate cheating; instead, it will probably create a huge black-market barter economy (the internet won't help, here), requiring an enforcement entity every bit as cumbersome/monstrous as IRS.

380 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:51:50am

re: #368 Babydoc97

I see 2 added benefits.

Since there is no need to report income and no loopholes, the IRS can be greatly trimmed (blood would shoot out of your eyeballs if you knew how much money is SPENT on the irs). This lowers the actual rate that we need to be taxed at.

The other benefit is that with the additional income we get (30% more income, 18% tax, that leaves 12% more income with no change in spending levels) we can save for retirement, easing the burden on social security.

381 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:52:38am
382 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:53:23am
383 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:53:42am

re: #374 buzzsawmonkey

I see. so you SUPPORT Rudy's liberal juges then?

Of course, you also demonize McCarthy.

And are a registered Democrat.

per you.

I'll take the 'finger out of my ass' when you remove your whole head.

384 zmdavid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:54:09am

re: #361 Rodan
2 questions:
What ideas of Reagan are the Republicans putting forward?

Which of Reagan's ideas have expired?

385 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:55:04am

re: #374 buzzsawmonkey

And yes, here is my hidden motive:

I am a Conservative!

I do not support Huckabee OR Rudy.

Or are you trying to suggest that because I'm a christian, I secretly yearn for huckabee?

Take your anti-christian bias somewhere else, democrat.

386 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:55:19am

re: #368 Babydoc97

I know my reaction to the fair tax would be to stop shopping. I can see a huge underground economy opening up, with bartering and off-the-table purchases. Plus, what happens to the states? Do they still have income taxes? Wouldn't the enactment of the fair tax result in the losses of many jobs because people would curtail their shopping? How would all of this be monitored?

387 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:56:15am
388 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:56:26am

re: #386 Carolmill

If there is one constant among people, it is their desire for things.

People would no more turn to a stolen-item black market than they refuse to file income taxes.

It happens, and such people are arrested for tax evasion.

389 Lucius Septimius  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:56:28am

re: #368 Babydoc97

"We have seen that the first step in the revolution by the working class, is to raise the proletariat in the position of ruling class, to win the battle of democracy. The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgoisie, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the State .... in the most advanced countries, the following will pretty well be generally applicable.

1. Apolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes
2. a heavy progressive or graduated income tax
etc.

(Marx and Engels, Communist Manifesto, end of section II)

390 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:56:51am
391 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:57:46am
392 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:58:41am
393 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:59:03am

re: #390 Rodan

But the basics don't change.. we're still in a struggle against Communism (however, since the fall of the USSR, people have forgotten that)..... we're still in a struggle against terrorism, even though we had forgotten about that until 9/11/2001. . . . we're still in a struggle against liberalism.

However, too many have been pacified... either made stupid by public education, or bought off by government subsidization.

394 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:59:14am
395 Wendya  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:01:02am

re: #72 jcm

Huck's strategy once he gained momentum was to build mo by winning a few early ones.

Huckabee was planning on the Iowa win driving public perception.

If you look back through the last 30 years or so, you find that the Iowa caucus isn't a very reliable indicator of who will get the nomination. It's more of a media dog and pony show.

396 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:01:05am
397 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:01:31am

re: #393 LanceKates

Public education and government reliance is killing freedom of thought...

People don't learn to think logically anymore and it shows...

398 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:01:35am

re: #388 LanceKates

I don't mean to imply that I would buy stolen black market items... I believe I would take a second look at used items for sale by private sellers, etc... I might not buy a new car. If purchases are made, I do know that bartering would become a huge factor. I could buy a car in exchange for something else I have of value, or a service I could provide. I know that bartering occurs now, and the IRS has a difficult time keeping up with it, but this would just be the tip of the iceberg in comparison to what would happen if the fair tax is enacted.

399 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:02:04am
400 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:02:40am
401 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:03:02am
402 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:03:22am

re: #395 Wendya

Iowa votes Blue.

it is more important for the Dems than for the Republicans.

However, because they tend to be liberal, the media likes to point out who they pick for the Republicans as though it somehow matters.

Unfortunately, for too many, it does.

I would even go so far as to suggest that if Rudy had won in Iowa, it'd be deemed as MUCH more important than it currently is.

403 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:03:36am
404 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:03:46am

re: #397 tfc3rid

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

405 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:04:08am
406 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:04:18am
407 funkyfantom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:04:22am

re: #378 Peter Verkooijen

re: #365 funkyfantom


re: #279 Peter Verkooijen
re: #227 Rodan
re: #210 RTLM
Agreed. McCain can defeat Hillary in the general. He just has to remind people that when he was a POW, she was supporting Radical Anti-American causes. It will be interestng.

I don't care what the polls say. A geriatric Republic will lose against Obama and probably against Clinton as well.

How does that explain Reagan or Eisenhower? Is it not possible that there are some intelligent voters out there who might not prefer someone right out of diapers? ( And I don't mean Depends.)

It always depends on the candidate of course. McCain as Republican the candidate feels like Bob Dole all over again; it's his turn, we don't have anyone else we like, we're not gonna win anyway, so what the hell, let him have his moment of glory before retirement.

I see your point. In 1980 Republicans were solidly behind Reagan - there was more or less an ideological consensus. McCain certainly has alienated many conservatives with his immigration stance and half-hearted attempts at flip-flopping on this issue. And you could say the same thing about Bush, of course. There is no central figure to rally around - OTOH, the Dems have the same problem.

And comparing Obama to previous Democratic wanna-be-messiah-figures (JFK? RFK? ) really highlights what a truly weak candidate he is.

408 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:04:41am
409 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:04:51am

re: #398 Carolmill

And that's fine. I buy used cars. I pay cash.

if they don't report the income, that is up to them. I report the income when I sell a car (though that doesn't happen often. heh. I normally drive them until they die then junk them or if they're still driveable, I donate them to charity auctions)

410 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:04:57am
411 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:05:13am
412 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:05:22am
413 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:05:52am
414 Lucius Septimius  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:05:53am

Lunch time over. Back to work. Plus office computer is being annoyingly jerky.

415 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:06:17am

re: #401 Rodan

I have three sons all under the age of 25, and they are conservative, not just members of the Republican party. They all have a core set of beliefs and do not just vote for the party who will give them the most things or redistribute income to be more "fair".

416 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:06:55am

re: #132 AuldTrafford

re: #98 BenZacharia


re: #87 AuldTrafford

The Confederate flag is not a symbol of racism; in fact, it was more a symbol of individual freedom (from centralized government) than anything to do with slavery (let alone racism).

It helps to do an analysis of the Confederate constitution in a side by side with the US Constitution. Guess where they diverge?

OK; I tried scanning it quickly. Some references to slavery - not too much different from the antebellum US Constitution (i.e., pre-13th & 14th Amendment). No racial qualifications for office, and no bar to citizenship for members of the African race - that I could see, anyway.

Not sure what your point is - are you with me, or agin' me? I did not say the Confederacy had nothing to do with slavery - that would be an inane statement. I said it was more about individual freedom. Note that the CSA Const'n forbade importation of slaves from outside the CSA. And many scholars agree that slavery as an institution was not likely to last a long time in the CSA if she achieved independence.

If the confederacy was so pro state rights, how come:
a) no member state could suceede from the new confederation, and
b) no member state could choose to outlaw slavery?

(if what I recall from reading Bennet's America, Last Best Hope yesterday is accurate)

417 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:07:20am
418 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:08:07am
419 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:10:11am
420 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:10:36am

re: #339 tfc3rid

Exactly my point about the decline of education in this country. In a nation mesmerized by the abomination of "American Idol" there is no serious contemplation of the real issues facing our country...once feelings have succeeded in trumping rational thought, our great republic is doomed. The nauseating pandering to the fickle whims of the masses has always been the warning sign of a nation's headlong rush into decay and oblivion.

421 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:11:38am
422 TMF  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:12:36am

Dont worry, when the under 25 set grows up, gets jobs, and has kids, they will become republicans.

423 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:13:08am

re: #399 buzzsawmonkey

I do not apologize for my dislike of McCarthy

of course not. why would you?

He was only RIGHT about the democrats, which is why they demonized him into what you portray him to be today.

Nor do I apologize for being a registered Democrat in a one-party town where the Democratic primary is, usually, the only genuine election.

I live in MN. Even the Republicans are liberals there. didn't mean I caved in.

As to Rudy's "liberal judges," it is clear that the article you cited to is as accurate on that score as a BBC report on the current "power crisis" in Gaza, and written with a slant to stampede persons like yourself.

Ahh, so rather than actually ACCEPT what it says, you're going to turn it into something that everyone dislikes: Gaza. (Your hope, of course, is that in so doing, OTHERS will also come to ignore my article I linked to and, by extension, ignore what I am saying.)

Really.. that's an old, cheap and dirty tactic used by people who have nothing to really discuss.... it is only half a step up from personal insults. (Oh wait, you already did that when you referred to me having my finger up my ass.)


You give Huckabee a break because he was in a "liberal-run state" despite his being governor of the entire state, but won't extend the same courtesy to Rudy as the mere mayor of a city in a liberal-run state.

no, I said that Huckabee isn't as liberal as he may be painted, I didn't say he wasn't liberal. Rudy's liberalism is well documented, despite your attempts to imply otherwise.

He vocally supported gun control. He said that those who oppose illegal immigration were borderline racists. He often praised the illegal immigration in NYC as a sign that they were doing well. He appointed liberal judges. He's used shady accounting to cover up an affair he was having.

And, he's passed off as a conservative... by people who don't know or willfully ignore it.

people make excuses for all of it, then call huckabee a liberal.

THAT is where I get irked.

That's flagrantly dishonest on your part--clear double standard. It is clear that you are biased pro-Huckabee because of his evangelical credentials, and/or because he is not from New York. There is no other explanation.

Piss on you, you arrogant bigot. I'm not Pro-Huckabee. I favor him to Rudy, but I'm not a Huckabee fan. You INSIST that I am because I am a christian and the only way to fit into your tiny brain that I don't like Rudy is because I either "hate new york' or am one of those 'christians' that it is ok to bash.


You are, of course, entitled to your flagrant bias. However, it should be considered a warning label on your posts.

FOAD bigot.

424 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:14:04am

re: #419 Rodan

I know. Even peers who are my age. I work for a government agency and about 98% of my peers are clueless liberals.

I think part of the problem with the Repulican party is that we have not elected conservative, but RINOS. The young people really don't see much of a difference. That, and the fact that the public education system doesn't allow for much critical thought.

425 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:14:30am

re: #416 nikis-knight

OK, the link to the CSA Constitution is quoted in your post, and I went to it. Admittedly didn't study every word, but I'll bite - I didn't see either provision you cite in there. Got a citation?

426 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:14:32am
427 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:14:50am

re: #415 Carolmill

It's all about parenting... If we can guide our kids to think for themselves, to investigate and to learn as much as they can about everything, then perhaps they will not fall into line like so many younger people do...

Sadly, there are not too many good parents any longer due to many different reasons.

428 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:15:35am

re: #383 LanceKates

"Tailgunner Joe" McCarthy did himself in. He was a demagogue, and a laughably clumsy one at that. He may have right that there were Soviet agents and sympathizers in high positions of the federal government, but he had no idea who they were, he only assumed they were there (far fewer than he imagined, as it turned out). He succeeded in exposing exactly none.

His list of "members of the Communist Party and members of a spy ring" was only his speech notes.

429 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:15:45am
430 Yank in the EU  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:16:38am

re: #387 taxfreekiller

All the third party can not work is based on just a split off of the Republicans, there are just as many pissed off Democrats, but
due to the liars of the msm, they have no voice, but given the
chance to get off the loon Hildie Beast mad bus to the cliff's edge
you bet 30 to 40 %...

If a group of people from the Indy Dems and Indy Repubs really unite under a common set of ideas and principles, and they are not generally nutters (such as 9/11 truthers or NAU, Bircher, conspiracy theorists), I think we would have a miracle on the scale of the parting the Red Sea. ;-)

However, I may just have seen too many nutter independents lately. Medved has a phrase, which can seem kind of harsh: "Losertarian." But he's got a point if you look at RP trying to win in the GOP (not to suggest RP represents the Libertarians, of course). It seems to me, in frankness, that anyone with common sense and the following set of ideas -- that America must continue to remain true to its free-market system that provides maximal opportunity and prosperity, its ideology of freedom and civil liberties, its traditional moral and religious values, as well as the necessity to defeat the jihad -- understands that a Reagan-type conservative is the best bet to beat the Dems and to acheive the aforementioned picture. The reason why we keep referring to Reagan is due to his successful political strategy: being at once a new kind of free-market, anti-socialist thinker (rejecting the old protectionist, isolationist Republicans) and and also one who managed in sincerety to capture the support of those for who tradition and values mean as much as anything in life as an American. Incidentally, my candidates are Thompson, Romney, Giuliani, McCain, and Huck - in that order.

431 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:16:41am
432 TMF  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:17:06am
I know many who have jobs and they hate the GOP. The Left's brainwashing is very strong. We need to some up with a youth oriented message. Nixon and Reagan both did this. The current GOP isn't.

I mean jobs somewhere other than Taco Bell

433 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:17:20am

re: #420 Babydoc97

And if you do watch American Idol like last week, you see kids who really are not vey good, who are told they are GREAT get their hearts broken when they are told point blank they are no good...

Everyone today is told they are the best and no one can and should say something bad about you... Not good...

434 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:17:40am

re: #428 Spiny Norman

Nope. He had his lists of names that the democrats forced him by order to make public.

Since then, he has been proven right on all but 2 people.

He didn't want to release those lists because he said that he may not be right on all of them.

435 Yank in the EU  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:18:32am

parting "of"

436 funkyfantom  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:18:36am

Just as an observation to those pro-Huckabee anti-Rudy folks out there.

There are obviously many issues out there of concern to conservatives, so they all must be weighed with their respective pros and cons.

But Rudy should be given credit for being a tough law-and-order kind of guy who got things done in a very liberal town where there were all kinds of forces arrayed against him. Forget about the "Mr. 9/11" - that
means nothing one way or the other.

But, it is interesting that huge numbers of liberals, having tasted the spoiled dish they had cooked up for themselves with their liberal mayor David Dinkins, went out and voted for Rudy TWICE.

He took on the Mob and won in two critical areas - the fish market and the trash business. He got nasty and threatening bums off the street - they are having a mini-renaissance under liberal mayor Bloomberg, ironically. He told the PLO and the Saudis to go eff themselves.

The economy boomed under his stewardship.

Meanwhile, Huckabee was turning loose murderer/rapists.

437 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:18:47am

We know "Its a tough room." The debate today has been informative and interesting. Please try and maintain civility for all our benefit.

/.02

438 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:18:48am

re: #429 buzzsawmonkey

re: #423 LanceKates

You are making an ass of yourself.

I will give you time to cool down; perhaps the usually-pleasant and usually-interesting person who customarily posts under your nic will re-emerge.

piss off, creep.

you slander me, insult me, degrade me and my religion, then portray ME as the bad guy?

Doesn't work anymore.

take your head out of your ass you liberal holdover.

439 TMF  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:18:54am

Point being:

When people grow up, develop a nest egg/retirement fund and have kids- they tend to become less tolerant of nannystatism, tax&spendism and appeasement of viscious enemies hellbent on our destruction.

440 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:19:12am
441 Peter Verkooijen  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:19:29am

re: #401 Rodan

re: #393 LanceKates
Not disagreeing with you. But Republicans need a makeover. I'm 32, people my age are still Republican because we remember Reagan. However people under 25 Hate the Republican Party. They say the party is out of date and doesn't relate to them. They do come up with strange reasoning, but if you lose the young, you lose the future. Nixon and then Reagan appealed to the young. That lead to GOP domination for the last 28 years. Times change and messages mus change too!

I kinda agree with that, but I don't think the problem is the underlying ideas. What do you mean by 'new ideas'? Do the Dems have any?

People under 25 hate the Republican party because that's what they're taught and that's what the Daily Show, The Onion and their friends say.

Should Republicans take cues from "the Ron Paul Revolution" that did attract the under 25s in droves? Maybe there's a way to keep radical libertarians on the sane side of the party.

Again, in the current field I believe Rudy Giuliani would be in the best position to reform the Republican party, update its style, make it more media savvy and urban.

442 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:20:37am

re: #433 tfc3rid

re: #420 Babydoc97

And if you do watch American Idol like last week, you see kids who really are not vey good, who are told they are GREAT get their hearts broken when they are told point blank they are no good...

Everyone today is told they are the best and no one can and should say something bad about you... Not good...



Wait-a-minute. I thought that self esteem was created externally, by repeated fake compliments.

443 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:21:44am
444 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:22:40am

re: #434 LanceKates

re: #428 Spiny Norman

Nope. He had his lists of names that the democrats forced him by order to make public.

Since then, he has been proven right on all but 2 people.

He didn't want to release those lists because he said that he may not be right on all of them.

Oh please. Even he later admitted that the piece of paper he held up in the so-called Wheeling Speech was only his notes.

Which number are you using anyway, his "205" or his "57"?

445 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:22:42am
446 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:23:13am

re: #441 Peter Verkooijen

That's the ticket! The Republicans need a counterpoint to The Daily Show. Who would be the star?

447 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:23:53am

re: #443 buzzsawmonkey

re: #438 LanceKates


you slander me, insult me, degrade me and my religion, then portray ME as the bad guy?

I have not slandered you, nor degraded you, nor degraded your religion.

As you, or anyone else will see, if they read my posts above.

I have made one slightly snotty comment to you, which is nothing in comparison to the unhinged, over-the-top railing in which you are currently engaged.

Get a grip.

told me I had my finger in my ass..... suggested that I'm pro-huckabee because I"m a christian (and that is my 'hidden motive')

Now you're trying to hide and become the victim.

I'm done with you and your liberal ideas.

448 Peter Verkooijen  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:23:59am

re: #422 TMF

Dont worry, when the under 25 set grows up, gets jobs, and has kids, they will become republicans.

Yes, but the Republican party has to make that transition easy and attractive. It has to regain some sense of cool, representing the future, opportunity, optimism, ambition.

449 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:25:54am

re: #444 Spiny Norman

once again, all of his names, hundreds, have been shown to be communist sympathizers.

Many were on the Verona cables as paid spies.

he wasn't out to gut anyone or get people that he didn't like.

His job was to find communist symphathizers working in the government, which he did, and did well.

It was the job of HUAC to get rid of them, and the Demcorats there opposed any such action, protecting them.

HE did his job and did it well. Democrats have been permitted to tell people what McCarthy was like.

450 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:26:58am

re: #379 AuldTrafford

Perhaps...but I don't think ANY method of taxation would be immune to cheating, simply based on the existence of human nature.

I simply think that use of a consumption tax, with legislation set up such that Congress cannot raise the tax rate without winning a national vote of those of us getting taxed would be a good first step in ending the current vote-buying scam we call the federal budget/income tax system.

How is it "fair" to punish people who have worked hard and are successful by extorting from them a higher PERCENTAGE of their earnings? Even a flat tax would be more fair than this evil graduated income tax. How on earth can anyone truthfully argue that it is "fair" to charge someone 40% of their income simply because they earn more than an arbitrarily decided-upon amount? The demonrats love this, because it hands them on a silver platter the class warfare tactics they've so successfully used for the last 80 years to increase their statist control of the government. Until we find a way to cut off this despicable vote-buying scam, re-educate the public as to the underpinnings of our republic and reinstate the concepts of rugged individualism, we will be left with RINO candidates pushing Socialist-Lite policies.

And after we pull off that miracle, perhaps we can find a cure for the common cold.....:p

451 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:27:03am

Oh, good grief.

452 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:31:33am

re: #451 Spiny Norman

Oh, good grief.

That's been my whole take on this thread.

453 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:31:35am

re: #450 Babydoc97

Well, I think my only point was that the Fair Tax is problematic from an enforcement standpoint - I'm no defender of the current system.

I do agree with an earlier post that the real problem is spending, not which flawed system of taxation is used.

I think the real solution (which has as much chance of getting anywhere as a tax-system change which will be opposed by a Dem-RINO coalition) is to rid ourselves of one-man-one-vote, and go with a responsibility system such as that used in the corporate world - tie voting to funding. You get a vote for every dollar you pay in tax. Watch what would happen then ...

454 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:31:43am

re: #451 Spiny Norman

Oh, good grief.

You got a problem with made up facts?

455 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:31:43am
456 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:32:14am

Tell me why it is ok to bash christians.... suggesting that they're too bigoted to vote for a mormon, or that a candidate only gets support because he is one?

Tell me why that is 'ok' . . . is it because we christians don't behead?

Or is it because you support a liberal candidate, and you can't defend him on political issues, so you have to alter the argument when you apply it to other republican candidates?

Where the hell is the conservative support, of CONSERVATIVE people for the good of the United States of America and her citizens?

Why sell our soul to liberalism for the sake of having an R in office. if they're as liberal as the Dems from just a few elections ago, what have we gained? nothing.

instead, we enable and continue to lose.

But we stick with them, believing that if we just stay with them, they'll change... they'll become what we're hoping they'll be.

Just like a woman married to an abusive drunkard.

457 alteredbeat  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:34:14am

re: #22 varmint

so far, the republican field reminds me of last call at the singles bar.

Just would like to know how the 'loser' label can be applied to Mr. Romney. Thanks.

458 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:34:49am

re: #456 LanceKates

So then, let's reap what we sow and elect Shrillary... Then we can see what life in a truly Liberal/Socialist state is like...

Of course, we won't be able to discuss it here on LGF...

459 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:36:44am

re: #458 tfc3rid

At this rate, another half dozen elections and it'll be the Republican candidate calling for universal healthcare and the democrat candidate calling for giving up property rights for the sake of the state.

Then, people like me will be written off as idiotic radicals with a 'hidden agenda' for not supporting the candidate with universal healthcare.

460 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:37:09am

re: #454 debutaunt

re: #451 Spiny Norman


Oh, good grief.

You got a problem with made up facts?

What facts are made up? Are you suggesting that McCarthy was behind Huac?

461 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:40:01am

re: #425 AuldTrafford

re: #416 nikis-knight

OK, the link to the CSA Constitution is quoted in your post, and I went to it. Admittedly didn't study every word, but I'll bite - I didn't see either provision you cite in there. Got a citation?

No, as I said, it was second hand. I'll have to review what I read last night to see if I am correctly portraying Bennet's book. (no time to check out your link now)
But certainly the "right" the CSA were leaving to protect was slavery. not every southerner in general, not every one who supported succession, or even the generals who led it were racist or pro-slavvery, but that was the cause, the sole impetes (sp?) for division. It's flag is not one I want associated in any way with conservatives.

462 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:40:04am
463 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:42:59am
464 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:43:48am

re: #458 tfc3rid

re: #456 LanceKates

So then, let's reap what we sow and elect Shrillary... Then we can see what life in a truly Liberal/Socialist state is like...

That'll learn us. Do penance for our political sins, we must. Another "40 years in the wilderness" will do the GOP good.

:^/

465 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:43:53am

re: #460 LanceKates

re: #454 debutaunt


re: #451 Spiny Norman

Oh, good grief.

You got a problem with made up facts?

What facts are made up? Are you suggesting that McCarthy was behind Huac?

Not at all. This thread seems to have gone sideways and cranky.

466 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:45:19am

re: #456 LanceKates

Um, I don't think anyone is bashing Christians here, or should I point out my own problems (theologically speaking) with evangelicalism (from a Catholic vantage point)? (I could do so and get really dinged up over it, but read on.)

Folks, this is a little out of hand, and I, for one, am a little suprised Stinky hasn't come in here and tried to negotiate through the mess. We all have our own take on who should be the presidential candidate and and why. OK, Rudy can be considered a social liberal, but that does not mean he is more liberal than Huckabee. Huckabee has, by contrast, raised taxes and not managed his state's budget well. Now, that said, what I don't like about the Huckster is that he seems to like to snipe from the edges and insult them (while trying to look innocent - see the press release he made). But, that's not the crux of what we want (or I suspect we, as ANTI-JIHADISTS want).

Folks, just because we mention that Huckabee uses his faith in his campaign, we are not "Christian bashing". Some of us are critical of him because he uses it as a venier to obtain votes. In other words, he's not genuine. Some of us critise it because it appears to be an act for him. It appears to be an act to me.

The way I see it, as the anti-jihad, we should look for a candidate who will opposed the jihad and tell the Saudis to go screw and pound sand.

/And folks, try not to take everything so damned personal. It's just a fucking blog after all.

467 DanishMade  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:45:35am

re: #364 LanceKates

Ignorance beyond imagination..Denmark's economy has been booming for more than 10 yrs now..close to overheating.
Finland has been doing pretty good as well, i can tell u that.

468 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:45:36am

re: #459 LanceKates

That I do not disagree with...

Here's the thing to remember regarding something like Universal Healthcare... See the issues we have now with Social Security and Medicare? Once a program like HillaryCare is in place, it's never going away...

469 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:47:29am

re: #463 buzzsawmonkey

and because you showed signs (now in full blossom) of turning into a web stalker.

HA! demonize me. Direct insults. that's the next step.

The lying is another matter. I did not say that you "supported" Huckabee; merely that you were willing to cut him slack for "liberalism" (the mortal sin, or equivalent, in your worldview) because he was in a "liberal-run" state, but would not--do not--grant Rudy the same courtesy. And you don't--even though Huckabee was Governor of his "liberal-run" state, and Rudy merely a city mayor in his.

Well, liar, I quote from your own post 399.

That's flagrantly dishonest on your part--clear double standard. It is clear that you are biased pro-Huckabee because of his evangelical credentials, and/or because he is not from New York. There is no other explanation.

Instead of addressing this anomaly, you have become almost incoherently abusive. It sucks to be caught out in a flagrant double standard, but you surely could respond in a more civilized manner.

no, being civilized doesn't work with liberals. i've tried it with you for far too long. The arrogant way you refer to McCarthy, your incredible bigotry towards christians (even suggesting that I have a pro-huckabee bias because I am christian).

No. I didn't turn this ugly. I just refused to sit back and let you degrade my religion and me.

Remember, this all started by your arrogant assumption that Rudy didn't appointed judges, so I was off base when I suggested otherwise.

Then, when I gave the proof that proved you wrong, you then attacked the proof.

470 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:48:37am

re: #461 nikis-knight

re: #425 AuldTrafford


re: #416 nikis-knight

OK, the link to the CSA Constitution is quoted in your post, and I went to it. Admittedly didn't study every word, but I'll bite - I didn't see either provision you cite in there. Got a citation?


No, as I said, it was second hand. I'll have to review what I read last night to see if I am correctly portraying Bennet's book. (no time to check out your link now)
But certainly the "right" the CSA were leaving to protect was slavery. not every southerner in general, not every one who supported succession, or even the generals who led it were racist or pro-slavvery, but that was the cause, the sole impetes (sp?) for division. It's flag is not one I want associated in any way with conservatives.

Rather than re-reading Bennet's book, why not read the CSA Constitution - the link to it is right in your comment.

And I rather categorically reject your perception that the (one, you - I think incorrectly - imply) "right" [your quotes] driving secession, was slavery. I believe it was freedom from centralized government, and that is a concept that should be squarely up any conservative's alley. Slavery was a doomed institution; maybe freedom is, too, if Hillary wins.

471 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:48:57am
472 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:50:04am

re: #466 Honorary Yooper

Folks, just because we mention that Huckabee uses his faith in his campaign, we are not "Christian bashing".

The regularly pushed idea that 'evangelicals' push for Huckabee and would never vote for a morman is the 'christian bashing' that many of us are tired of.

it is bigoted to suggest that a christian wouldn't vote for a mormon, and it is bigoted to say that anyone who favors huckabee over Rudy does so because of an 'christian bias'.

473 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:50:19am

re: #386 Carolmill

I don't claim to be an expert on the Fair Tax, by any means, so if I have given that impression I most humbly apologize. I haven't purchased any of the books in support of the Fair Tax yet, but I intend to do this to learn more about it. From what I have been able to learn about it thus far, I am (so far) impressed with the projected ability to take power away from the government, and more importantly, it's ability to attack the marxist principles inherent in our current graduated income tax system.

Bartering systems already spring up from time to time, and when the IRS finds out about them, comes calling for it's share of the take. Underground economies already exist, and when the government finds out about them, it goes after them for breaking the law. The ONLY thing the government is efficient (meaning quick and tenacious in this context) about doing is chasing after tax money.

I don't know what the proponents of the Fair Tax say regarding state taxes. I know I have decided never to live in a state that has a state income tax, choosing only to live in states that have sales taxes instead. I pay my fair share of taxes based on what I buy to support my family. That seems to me significantly more fair than having some bureaucrat arbitrarily decide how much of my income I'm allowed to keep based solely on the government's whims as to what is middle-class versus what is "rich". Making over $100K/yr may sound like you are rich, but if you are a single father supporting 7 children living with you, it ain't easy street. How is it fair that I be required to pay a higher percentage of my income than a single person with no dependents who makes $50K/year? What fairness is there in deciding that someone with children who makes over $80K/yr should get less of a child tax credit than someone with children who makes less than $50K/yr? Does the child in the $80K/yr family somehow cost less to raise? Doesn't it seem far more equitable for taxes to be based on consumption of resources rather than class warfare?

Even if you went to a flat tax, that would be better from a fairness standpoint. If I make $100K/yr with a flat tax of 18%, I pay $18,000 in tax. If you make $40K/yr at 18% flat tax you'd pay $7200 in taxes. I'm still paying more than double in taxes what you are paying...in fact, I'm paying an amount in taxes equal to the ratio of our annual incomes. How is that not fair compared to the insane (and marxist) income tax system we suffer from now?

474 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:51:46am

re: #389 Lucius Septimius

AMEN, Lucius!

Now why can't our conservative leaders pound this home to the American people!

475 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:52:35am

re: #467 DanishMade

Almost 2/3rd of Denmark is either unemployed or working for the government.


Your marginal tax rate is around 63%.

I wouldn't call that 'doing well'


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

476 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:52:54am
477 tfc3rid  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:53:42am

I don't give a crap what someone's religion is as a candidate...

To me, that is meaningless...

Are they a leader? Will they follow their gut and fight Islamofascism? Will they be conservative in domestic issues?

I don't care if someone is Jewish, Baptist, Catholic, Mormom, etc... Are they fit for the office?

478 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:53:52am

re: #471 buzzsawmonkey

re: #469 LanceKates


Then, when I gave the proof that proved you wrong, you then attacked the proof.

Fisked it. Or do you believe everything you read simply because it fits your biases?

Do you disbelieve everything you read simply because it doesn't fit your bias?

I wouldn't call what you did 'fisking' you didn't refute any of the idea that Rudy put up liberal judges.... all you did was attack the source and compare it to Gaza.

8 to 1 liberal to conservative.

Keep dreaming.

479 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:53:52am

I'm running out of popcorn

480 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:54:28am

re: #479 Le_Patriot

I'm running out of popcorn

Next bucket is on me.

481 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:55:17am

re: #476 buzzsawmonkey

re: #472 LanceKates


it is bigoted to say that anyone who favors huckabee over Rudy does so because of an 'christian bias'.

It is, however, in no way bigoted to note that giving Huckabee a pass for "liberalism" because he was in a "liberal-run state," while not giving Rudy the same pass on the same grounds, constitutes a double standard.

And it is in no way bigoted to then speculate on the grounds for that double standard.

Once again you're lying. I didn't give Huckabee a pass. I explained why he may not be as liberal as some may say. I did NOT say he wasn't liberal, nor did I give him 'a pass' as you suggest.

And yes, it is bigoted to suggest that because I'm a christian, I must be pro-huckabee.

482 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:56:34am

re: #361 Rodan

Another part of the problem is that the Republican Paty is out of touch. They still push ideas from the Reagan era, Reagan was a great President but that was 20 years ago. Times have changed and so has society. The GOP needs to update to reflect the times. 1980 was a long time ago.

pfft, I'm still pushing for political ideas from the 1780's.

Good taste never goes out of style.

483 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:56:56am
484 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:57:50am

re: #483 buzzsawmonkey

still not refuting it.

8 to 1. Liberal to Conservative.

Not to mention that the article itself showed that he appoints judges, which was what YOU said he didn't do as Mayor.

485 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:58:16am

re: #482 Crusader Rabbit
__________________---
The Rodan troll may have left the thread.
It can't remain silent for more than a minute.

486 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:58:26am

re: #481 LanceKates

And yes, it is bigoted to suggest that because I'm a christian, I must be pro-huckabee.

WTF suggested that!?! I haven't seen anyone suggest that yet in this twisted thread.

487 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:58:55am
488 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:59:23am

Galls the bejesus out of me when people so cavalierly mischaracterize the motivations of some very highly principled CSA patriots. They deserve better.

There were many bad apples in the barrel - there always are (just as many in the North, by the way). But some very moral people at the heart of it.

489 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:59:40am

re: #486 Honorary Yooper

I quote from buzzsawmonkey's 399:

That's flagrantly dishonest on your part--clear double standard. It is clear that you are biased pro-Huckabee because of his evangelical credentials, and/or because he is not from New York. There is no other explanation.

490 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 11:59:54am

re: #462 Rodan

He's a fraud and a fake.

Some people here are saying you are a fraud and the fake.

491 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:00:09pm

re: #485 Le_Patriot

re: #482 Crusader Rabbit
__________________---
The Rodan troll may have left the thread.
It can't remain silent for more than a minute.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

SPOKE
TOO
SOON
HY

/With apologies to Render :-)

492 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:00:19pm

re: #399 buzzsawmonkey

Please read M. Stanton Evans well-researched book on McCarthy, "Blacklisted By History", before making the egregiously wrong statements on McCarthy and his record. The demonrats in control of the senate at the time colluded with the state department to smear, lie and finally censure Senator McCarthy. The information in Evans' book on the behavior of the kangaroo court antics of Senator Tydings in the entire McCarthy affair reveal the exact same political playbook used by Clinton and the demonrats today.

Please don't lower the credibility of your position by regurgitating leftist character assasination propaganda.

493 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:00:30pm
494 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:01:30pm

re: #489 LanceKates

re: #486 Honorary Yooper

I quote from buzzsawmonkey's 399:


That's flagrantly dishonest on your part--clear double standard. It is clear that you are biased pro-Huckabee because of his evangelical credentials, and/or because he is not from New York. There is no other explanation.

Biased pro-Huck as in also biased anti-Rudy since this whole flap was about Huck and Rudy.

/I'm popping more popcorn as we speak.

495 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:02:05pm
496 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:02:20pm
497 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:02:44pm

re: #494 Honorary Yooper

In other words, you refuse to see the bigotry?

498 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:03:24pm

re: #493 Rodan

re: #485 Le_Patriot
How am I a troll?
I'm anti-Leftists./Islamist/Nazi.
Explain you accusation.


__________________
I meant "moby", not troll. Sorry.
It's an opinion of mine, based on reading your last
month's worth of posts.

499 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:04:06pm

re: #496 buzzsawmonkey

Once again, your 399 tells a different story:

That's flagrantly dishonest on your part--clear double standard. It is clear that you are biased pro-Huckabee because of his evangelical credentials, and/or because he is not from New York. There is no other explanation.

Also note part of what you bolded. "PART of huckabee's liberalism"

I didn't give him a pass. You want me to have. Especially since it would bolster your bigoted opinion that I support huckabee because I am a christian.

500 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:05:28pm

The fact of the matter is Huckabee most certainly is a leftist in evangelist's clothing, one needs look no further than his record to see that.

He is also a man who I most certainly would not want to have using the power of the Presidential Pardon.

Over the course of his 10 and a half years as governor, Huckabee granted a staggering 1,033 clemencies, according to the Associated Press. That was more than double the combined 507 that were granted during the 17 and a half years of his three predecessors: Bill Clinton, Frank White, and Jim Guy Tucker.

501 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:06:05pm

re: #428 Spiny Norman

I refer again to Mr. Evans' book "Blacklisted By History", and highly recommend it before making such comments about the events of McCarthy, the deliberate fabrications and mischaracterizations of his Wheeling speech by the Tydings' subcommittee, and the subsequent demonization by the leftists in the press and academia.

502 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:07:32pm
503 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:08:44pm
504 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:10:09pm

re: #502 buzzsawmonkey

I didn't give him a pass for liberalism.

I said that PART of his liberalism came from being in a wholly dem state.

No where have I said that he is a conservative. More conservative than Rudy, yes in my opinion. But not a conservative.

The bigotry is clearest as I quoted from 399.

505 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:11:10pm

re: #495 Rodan

I haven't formed an opinion but note that your posts here, here, here, here and here ad nauseum do little but provide fodder for LGF bashers.

506 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:11:49pm
507 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:12:22pm

re: #444 Spiny Norman

Please, Mr. Norman. Read Evans' book. You'll get the real story behind the "205" vs "57" smoke screen that Tydings ginned up for the sole purpose of avoiding doing any invesitgation into the charges McCarthy brought up...which others had been trying for over 15 years to investigate, but which the democrat-controlled congress and White House were deliberately ignoring.

Tydings' own papers reveal he was only interested in destroying McCarthy, rather than performing the actual investigation into the obvious communist infiltration within the US government with which his subcommittee was charged by the Senate.

508 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:14:50pm
509 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:15:07pm

re: #470 AuldTrafford

re: #461 nikis-knight


re: #425 AuldTrafford

re: #416 nikis-knight
OK, the link to the CSA Constitution is quoted in your post, and I went to it. Admittedly didn't study every word, but I'll bite - I didn't see either provision you cite in there. Got a citation?

No, as I said, it was second hand. I'll have to review what I read last night to see if I am correctly portraying Bennet's book. (no time to check out your link now)
But certainly the "right" the CSA were leaving to protect was slavery. not every southerner in general, not every one who supported succession, or even the generals who led it were racist or pro-slavvery, but that was the cause, the sole impetes (sp?) for division. It's flag is not one I want associated in any way with conservatives.

Rather than re-reading Bennet's book, why not read the CSA Constitution - the link to it is right in your comment.

And I rather categorically reject your perception that the (one, you - I think incorrectly - imply) "right" [your quotes] driving secession, was slavery. I believe it was freedom from centralized government, and that is a concept that should be squarely up any conservative's alley. Slavery was a doomed institution; maybe freedom is, too, if Hillary wins.

For the first part: I'll reread the book because I want to make sure I am not mischaracterizing what he said. If I remember, I'll check out the actual doc as well, but I don't think I have time right now, in between tasks at work.

But, do you honestly believe that, all other things being equal, the south would still have revolted sans slavery? I know it wasn't the only division, but it was the only one deep enough to cause a violent, bloody split. Why else did they leave as soon as Lincoln was elected? Who was moderate on slavery, but absolutely opposed to it's expansion into new territories. Most at the time believed slavery would die out without expansion, which is why the issue was so explosive.

Slavery was absolutely, imo, the cause for the split. It wasn't the sole cause for the fight, though. Many of the rebs, and their most able generals, fought out of loyalty to their home states. They may have believed they had the right to split (Calhoun was the one most responsible for this idea, though it had even been debate by some out of power northerners in times past, though the surviving founders disagreed strongly), and so saw the war as an invasion. And, the reason many of them who had no slaves were willing to fight to keep slavery in place was because they feared a violent retribution once the slaves were free (actually, the opposite happened more often after the war, though neither was so widespread), not necessarily racism. But nonetheless, the confederacy represents unlawful rebellion to preserve human bondage, and while the members weren't all bad, I don't see why we should defend their iconography.

510 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:15:27pm

re: #497 LanceKates

re: #494 Honorary Yooper

In other words, you refuse to see the bigotry?

Oh for chrissake, you take shit too damned personally. This whole thread is about Huck and Rudy, and you've made statements before that you believe Huck to be more conservative than Rudy, which I take to mean that you would opt for one over the other. You've been very vocal about your opposition to Rudy for quite some time and never let go an opportun ity to denegrate the man. Then someone challenges you, and you shout he's being bigoted. I don't buy it that he's being bigoted.

511 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:16:35pm

re: #503 Rodan

re: #498 Le_Patriot
So my anti-Leftist, anti-Islamists and anti-Nazi posts don't count.
Just to let you know I have attacked Leftist and Islamists websites. It's because of me and another poster here that Think Progress has registration and Umar Lee has a comment filter. I take on the Leftists and Islamists on their own turf. Do you?


______________________--
Good for you. You seem fit the definition of a moby (see LGF dictionary). . . . You continually spout mostly conservative philosophy, but then if someone disagrees, you seem quick to challenge them.
If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. If that's the case, I would then just suggest that you cut back on the caffiene . . .
Some of your posts (many) seem like rants that are not very well thought out.

512 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:16:38pm

re: #508 buzzsawmonkey

Again I quote from 399.

That's flagrantly dishonest on your part--clear double standard. It is clear that you are biased pro-Huckabee because of his evangelical credentials, and/or because he is not from New York. There is no other explanation.

Say what you want. Doesn't change what you posted. Twist it how you may, doesn't change what was said.

Your bigoted post is the exact offensive drivel I expect from places like KOS or DU.

I am done with you.

513 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:17:41pm

re: #504 LanceKates

re: #502 buzzsawmonkey

I didn't give him a pass for liberalism.

I said that PART of his liberalism came from being in a wholly dem state.

No where have I said that he is a conservative. More conservative than Rudy, yes in my opinion. But not a conservative.

Well, that depends upon what kind of conservative you are. Huck is more socially conservative than Rudy. That's a given. However, Huck is far more fiscally liberal than Rudy as well. Thus, to some of us, Huckabee is more liberal than Rudy. We've been through this before.

514 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:18:33pm

re: #510 Honorary Yooper

once again. from 399:

That's flagrantly dishonest on your part--clear double standard. It is clear that you are biased pro-Huckabee because of his evangelical credentials, and/or because he is not from New York. There is no other explanation.

Yes. I find that offensive. How about if people pushed the idea that you DON'T support Huckabee because you're an atheist... and atheists wouldn't support Huckabee...

Wouldn't you find that to be, say, a little stupid to suggest?

But, if it is repeated often enough, it becomes truth.

Just like the assertion that there is no anti-christian bigotry in the idea that someone 'gives huckabee' a pass because they are christian.

utter crap. I expected more.

515 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:20:09pm

re: #513 Honorary Yooper

re: #504 LanceKates


re: #502 buzzsawmonkey

I didn't give him a pass for liberalism.

I said that PART of his liberalism came from being in a wholly dem state.

No where have I said that he is a conservative. More conservative than Rudy, yes in my opinion. But not a conservative.



Well, that depends upon what kind of conservative you are. Huck is more socially conservative than Rudy. That's a given. However, Huck is far more fiscally liberal than Rudy as well. Thus, to some of us, Huckabee is more liberal than Rudy. We've been through this before.

Well, He's too liberal for me to get behind, but compared to Rudy, he is MUCH more conservative on the 2nd Amendment.

VERY important with a demcorat congress.

Of course, as mayor, Rudy proudly saw to lawsuits against gun manufacturers for crimes committed with their guns.

516 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:20:16pm
517 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:20:32pm

re: #511 Le_Patriot

re: #503 Rodan


re: #498 Le_Patriot
So my anti-Leftist, anti-Islamists and anti-Nazi posts don't count.
Just to let you know I have attacked Leftist and Islamists websites. It's because of me and another poster here that Think Progress has registration and Umar Lee has a comment filter. I take on the Leftists and Islamists on their own turf. Do you?

______________________--
Good for you. You seem fit the definition of a moby (see LGF dictionary). . . . You continually spout mostly conservative philosophy, but then if someone disagrees, you seem quick to challenge them.
If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. If that's the case, I would then just suggest that you cut back on the caffiene . . .
Some of your posts (many) seem like rants that are not very well thought out.

A while back, Charles suggested a time out.

518 macduff  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:22:56pm

My oh my, this is a goood, old fashioned donneybrook in here today! Gotta love it.

519 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:24:45pm
520 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:25:10pm

re: #506 Rodan


I take on the Left, you don't.
_________________-
There, now, see?
That's what a moby does . . . post and post and post, till you get a rise out of somebody, (1400+ posts since December 11th?) then talk out of your a$$ (you have no idea what other venues I post on, or what my usernames are in those places, yet you state as fact that I don't take on the left . . which is totally uninformed BS).
Whereas you have now confirmed to me that you are indeed a moby, I will not respond to any more of your comments. You are officially scroll-over material to me.
Have a nice day.
: )

521 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:25:35pm
522 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:26:11pm

Well...since this has degenerated into a dogfight betwixt buzzsawmonkey and LanceKates, I suppose I should go do something constructive...like get groceries for my kids while simultaneously paying my "fair share" of sales taxes to support the burgeoning socialist nanny state.

Have fun, fellow lizards.

523 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:26:47pm
524 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:27:37pm

re: #519 Rodan

re: #517 debutaunt
I did and stopped arguing with people. This poster made an accusation and I responded. I will defend myself if attacked. If I'm not attack I will attack no one. That's been my policy since Charles's warning. I have posted after that had no complaints.

OT,
On the History Channel they're showing Stalin's plan for creating an army of hybrid Ape/Human!

Le_Patriot apologized, but also left a suggestion.

525 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:28:31pm

re: #517 debutaunt


A while back, Charles suggested a time out.

?

526 lancekates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:29:11pm

re: #521 buzzsawmonkey

re: #512 LanceKates

You have had over 100 posts to explain in simple, clear words what the real reason for your double standard is--why you are willing to give Huckabee a pass for "liberalism" on the grounds he was "in a liberal-run state"--and refuse to give Rudy anything approaching a pass on the same grounds. You have yet to provide that explanation.

If your double standard is not due to anti-New York bias, nor bias based upon Huckabee's declared religious affiliation, what is the basis for it?

Your double standard is still there, hanging out for all to see--no matter how many phony accusations of "bigotry" you spew. And the more such phony accusations you spew without addressing the issue of your double standard, the more it supports the inference that the reasons for it are precisely those I have suggested.

I told you that I'm done with you. Now who is being an internet stalker?

I have no bias for Huckabee, nor any double standard. He is a liberal and while I marginally support him over rudy, it should not be taken as support of Huckabee.

My point was, and has always been, that those who support Rudy can't bash huckabee on political grounds so they go after the religious.

in so doing they also, like you did in 399, suggest that the only reason that someone would support huckabee was if THEY were a christian.

That is why I am done with you.

Post whatever drivel you wish, spread lies about what I did or what I said.

nothing gets past your bigotry in 399, which you refuse to accept or apologize for.

you enter scrollover territory, which is suitable for those with anti-christian slants or who engage in rampant McCarthy bashing.

You are the weakest link, goodbye.

527 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:31:56pm

re: #509 nikis-knight

As a matter of fact, that's just what I believe. I'll not argue the proposition that slavery was a major issue, but even the yellow journalists of the day made it more of an issue than I believe it was to Southern leaders.

Check your history, and I think you will find the South almost seceded several years earlier over the Tariff of Abominations. Slavery an issue; of course, but it has purposely been overplayed by the left - both now and in the day (to moralize the Northern economic oppression of the South).

528 Le_Patriot  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:32:59pm

*door shuts* *exit*
/leaves thread to look for more congenial and productive atmosphere.

529 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:33:06pm

re: #525 Le_Patriot

re: #517 debutaunt


A while back, Charles suggested a time out.

?

Charles had a little talk with Rodan about some of his behavior.

530 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:35:38pm
531 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:36:05pm

re: #527 AuldTrafford

Don't forget that many of the states didn't leave the union until it was announced that a federal army was going to be formed to force the states that had previously left to rejoin.

It was basically understood that the states had a right to leave.

532 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:38:52pm
533 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:39:41pm
534 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:40:23pm

re: #531 LanceKates

re: #527 AuldTrafford

Don't forget that many of the states didn't leave the union until it was announced that a federal army was going to be formed to force the states that had previously left to rejoin.

It was basically understood that the states had a right to leave.

Yes; exactly.

This is not the Word from on High, but I'll take support where I can get it

535 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:46:39pm

re: #198 LanceKates

re: #190 Crusader Rabbit

believe what you want. who do you support?

My dream ticket for 2008 is Patton/LeMay. Unfortunately I can safely predict that neither of them will be in the running. So then I have to ask myself, who do I believe will govern most like Patton?

Hunter - A big yes. Alas he's taken himself out of the running.

McCain - more of a DeGaul. Places himself first in all things. He has elements of Patton, but too much Gaulism is bad for you. Ideologically more suited to be Hillary's running mate. The closest thing to Patton among democrats, but I'm not a democrat. NOT ACCEPTABLE

Romney - more of an Eisenhower than a Patton. I really don't want another 'nice guy' president at this point in history. I also fear that he is another who (like our current president) will squander his time in office trying to negotiate peace with madmen who believe their faith requires they nuke Israel and the US out of existence. There is no bargain to be had there, but I get the impression he's one of those who believe there's always a bargain to be made. Every moment of delay from this point puts millions of lives on the line. Acceptable but with uncomfortably many caveats.

Huckabee - more of a Nathaniel P. Banks (ie Democrat and an unintentional self-satire.) NOT ACCEPTABLE

Ron Paul - more of a George B. McClellan (ie delusional). Believes the Constitution binds us to "international law". Also believes that the rest of the world is filled with happy ponies prancing through medows of cotton candy and that all strife is caused by the US. Apparently not uncomfortable about having vicious anti-semite allies. NOT ACCEPTABLE

Thompson - more of a James Longstreet. Terrible on the 1st amendment. Good on most other issues but too genteel (please no more 'nice guy' presidents) and too many dubious political allies (McCain most of all). Acceptable but with caveats.

Rudy - after Hunter then next closest to Patton. Took on the mob head-on. Cut taxes in NYC. Enforced laws in NYC. Has a few positions I dislike, most of all on gun control. Understands (as I do) abortion to be an issue properly belonging to the states and not to federal courts. Lacks for nothing in the area of willingness to identify the enemy and kick its backside. Acceptable but with caveats.

As much as anything in politics as we stand today I want McCain to lose in Arizona. I have been trying to have the guy repudiated by Arizona Republicans for more than a decade. We had a recall effort going and we stopped it due to 9/11. Our thinking was that whatever our gripes the country had something more important to do now. Unfortunately we still do, and Captain Queeg is most assuredly not the guy to do it.

I plan to look at the results of Florida and choose between the acceptable candidates. If I had to pick today it would be Rudy. (I will choose a scrapper over a gentleman.)

If Rudy doesn't win in Florida, then I would agree with the assessment that he's out. At that point I would vote for Romney (over Thompson) as an ABM (anyone but McCain) vote. Thompson can't beat McCain in Arizona. Romney might be able to.

536 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:47:25pm

re: #534 AuldTrafford

That idea is quickly lost in the rush to condemn all southerners as evil during the Civil War.

many accounts of poor southern soldiers captured who, when asked why they're fighting as they clearly couldn't be slaveowners, said "you all are on our land."

Of course, the North had its slave trade. rather than owning the person and providing a place to sleep and some basic food to eat, the northern factories employed child labor, paying them almost nothing and working many to early deaths (not to mention lots of workplace accidents.)

I suggest that neither side has a morally clean slate.

of course, I'm often called an idiot for that.... but that's nothing new.

537 macduff  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:49:36pm

Well, now after the donnybrook how about a little Steve Martin Banjo Music. If for no other reason, you just have to smile when you hear banjo music.

As we listen, let's think of the stark difference between the conversations here and at Kos and take a measure of pride.

538 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:50:07pm

re: #535 Crusader Rabbit

When we have a democrat controlled congress, I would suggest that putting in a liberal republican would be as much, if not more, damage than a 'nice guy' president.

the nice guy president would at least fight attempts to remove our guns (thereby making streets safer for criminals who don't care about gun laws anyway), and would be stronger on the border than the liberal republican.

Border Control and the 2nd Amendment are just as vital to National Security as fighting overseas.

539 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:50:55pm

re: #527 AuldTrafford

re: #509 nikis-knight

As a matter of fact, that's just what I believe. I'll not argue the proposition that slavery was a major issue, but even the yellow journalists of the day made it more of an issue than I believe it was to Southern leaders.

Check your history, and I think you will find the South almost seceded several years earlier over the Tariff of Abominations. Slavery an issue; of course, but it has purposely been overplayed by the left - both now and in the day (to moralize the Northern economic oppression of the South).


Obviously I won't dispute the fact that tariffs can in fact be motivation to fight to the death. ;) I forget the details of that bill, it was heated in it's day, though a compromise was made. compromise was made with slavery, too, but increasingly in Lincoln's day that was becoming impossible.

I'm not arguing due to any vested interest--I haven't a clue where most of my ancestors were 100 years ago, and I like that. but having been just reading about this, I was interested and wanted to discuss it. A couple more points though,
1- It's kinda ironic to talk about the south as victims of economic oppression.
2-It is by and large the left that downplays the role of slavery in the civil war, because as much as they like painting the south as racist (and I believe that much of the north was then too, and not all that much of the south now is) they much more love rewriting history to paint US wars as oppressive, ignoble ventures.
3-Who was the "left" then? I didn't get the impression any of the factions were left in the sense we use it today, to mean collectivist, internationalist, and statist. Maybe the no-nothings, a bit, but they were fringe. The federalists might have been a *little* leftist, but they were all gone by then, and I'm sure even "king" Hamilton is spinning in his grave alongside Jefferson (who must surely be about ot shoot through the center of the earth after what the democrats have become)

540 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:52:14pm

re: #539 nikis-knight

I've never seen a liberal downplay the civil war. Only reduce it to 'racist conservatives' and 'diverse liberals'

541 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:53:06pm

re: #539 nikis-knight

as for who was on the 'left' . .. it was those who wanted a federal government that could override the rights previously granted to the states themselves.

At that point, the federal government started to grow, and has yet to shrink.

542 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:53:28pm

now we talk about whether or not the government ought to take our money to give people their 'right' to free healthcare.

543 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:54:18pm

re: #536 LanceKates

It's a pretty well-established fact that most former slaves fared rather poorly after the was as share-croppers. Many of them led worse lives in "freedom" than in slavery.

Not all (in fact, relatively few) slaveowners whipped and beat their slaves - they were far too valuable.

Also poorly understood is the world-view of slavery in the early 1800s. Very few cultures had abandoned the very ancient practice (which still exists today), with England being a major exception.

544 Colonel Panik  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:56:34pm

re: #538 LanceKates


Border Control and the 2nd Amendment are just as vital to National Security as fighting overseas.

Sadly it appears the now departed Duncan Hunter and Tom Tancredo were the only candidates who recognized that .

545 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:57:00pm

re: #541 LanceKates

Yes; exactly right. The "left" is the force for centralized government at the expense of individual freedom (especially economic freedom).

546 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:57:31pm

re: #538 LanceKates

I believe our current president is a demonstration that a 'nice-guy' president is more likely to give dems in congress what they want. Think 'new tone', Kennedy writing the Education law, the president signing McCain-Feingold and the same president asserting that people who opposed McCain-Kennedy "don't want what's best for America". It's been a disaster for the conservative model of government.

I'm going for the scapper if there's one to be had.

547 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:57:43pm

re: #94 Orde

I'm really floored, shocked by Charles' labelling of Huckabee as a leftist. Extremely disappointing beyond words. Best wishes to all lizards, good-bye.

Taking your ball and going home, I see. I'm sorry you did not find this to be the kind echo chamber you hoped it would be. Personally, I like the divergent opinions expressed here, it always gives me much food for thought.

It's too bad you're leaving, Orde, I thought you had thicker scales.

548 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:57:55pm

re: #536 LanceKates

re: #534 AuldTrafford

That idea is quickly lost in the rush to condemn all southerners as evil during the Civil War.

many accounts of poor southern soldiers captured who, when asked why they're fighting as they clearly couldn't be slaveowners, said "you all are on our land."

Yeah, I said as much in #509. I'm not about to call any group evil, but the south was on the wrong side there.

549 Adrenalyn  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:58:16pm

re: #266 Cygnus

re: #201 imtoast


re: #191 Adrenalyn

-If you have jam for my toast I'll take that coffee!


I prefer tea but I'll take the toast with butter and raspberry jam!
And yes, I got flamed here too! It took 2 visits to the hairdresser to get rid of all the roasted hair follicles. :~)

I got flamed not for something either
that's what makes it so apparent that mormons are a cult and perhaps even gravitating to violent levels like islam

I got flamed for simply pointing out in my bio/avatar/profile that mormons and muslims both started out as child-marring cults
and man I got a load of shit just having that it my bio
I didn't even mention the planet thing and oral sex is not sex thing until the flaming began

550 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 12:58:48pm

re: #544 Colonel Panik

That's ok though, because we'll have a Republican to vote for. so go blindly vote, or else you'll just be electing hillary!


that mindset reminds me of parents telling their kids to eat their veggies or the boogieman will come out of their closet and take their nose.

551 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:00:15pm

re: #546 Crusader Rabbit

I see it the other way.

President Rudy, 'reaching across the aisle like Reagan" to sign that gun control bill into law in exchange for war funding for Iraq.

He's soft on gun control.... it wouldn't be a compromise he'd have a hard time making.

Or, Amnesty for the illegals, in exchange for a vote on more funding for Iraq (because the first funding bill wasn't all that he wanted...)

552 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:01:35pm

re: #539 nikis-knight

1. Why is it "ironic" to talk about the South as victims of economic oppression. It is still economically behind the North, and was heavily out-voted in Congress. When one is out-voted, one is often the (involuntary) dinner-party host.

2. I agree the left wishes to denigrate our role in warfare, but do not agree that the left downplays the role of slavery and racism in the War - or in the Old South. In fact, I think the Civil War (especially the post-War Constitutional consequences) is maybe the one war (on the Union's side, and with the slavery as caussus bellis) they are willing to tolerate historically.

553 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:03:15pm

re: #552 AuldTrafford

all the taxes and tarriffs....

Kind of like today... high taxes makes for poverty.

They produced much more money than the north did, but the north, specifically NYC's harbor system and the federal government that protected it, sure took quite a bit of it through those taxes and tarriffs.

554 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:03:43pm

re: #543 AuldTrafford

re: #536 LanceKates

It's a pretty well-established fact that most former slaves fared rather poorly after the was as share-croppers. Many of them led worse lives in "freedom" than in slavery.

Not all (in fact, relatively few) slaveowners whipped and beat their slaves - they were far too valuable.

Also poorly understood is the world-view of slavery in the early 1800s. Very few cultures had abandoned the very ancient practice (which still exists today), with England being a major exception.


Too true, about the universiality of slavery. (and wanting English allies was probably a large part of why the confederacy didn't reinstate the slave trade)
I don't know about slaves being better underslavery than not--as Frederick Douglas said, "show me the man who has chosen slavery." (temporary indentured servitude aside). But I'd suggest 2 things-- The decendents of slaves have gained from being American, rather than African, even if their ancestors suffered for it.
And (modern) liberalism (glorifying promiscuity and crime, etc.) has been as destructive to black life as Jim Crow, at least, and probably slavery.

555 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:03:46pm

re: #551 LanceKates

I see a Romney admin bargaining our rights away as though they're just another resource to expend in the name of "progress". In the mean time, a country run by a kooky death-cult gets the nukes they have been all too clear they mean to use.

556 Duane  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:05:11pm

The Huckster reminds me of President Logan from "24", and that's not good.

557 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:05:19pm

re: #555 Crusader Rabbit

well, Romney is like Clinton, as I've said before.... testing the air before making a decision.

That is dangerous to have in the white house.

I was referring more to Thompson, particularly with a Hunter as VP.

558 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:07:00pm
559 DanishMade  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:07:05pm

re: #475 LanceKates

You really have no idea what ur talking about:

The tax-systems is progressive with three levels. So for the amount you earn at the first level is taxed at a certain percentage, and the amount you earn at the medieum level is taxed by higher percentage etc. It is far to complex to elaborate on here. But the idea is to create higher equality so that no-one is left behind - I make 100k dollars a year and I pay 33% of that in tax.
Well, unemployment in Denmark is currently 3%, so...

560 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:08:12pm

re: #552 AuldTrafford

re: #539 nikis-knight

1. Why is it "ironic" to talk about the South as victims of economic oppression. It is still economically behind the North, and was heavily out-voted in Congress. When one is out-voted, one is often the (involuntary) dinner-party host.

Um, because as bad as they may have been getting it, they gave worse to the slaves. I didn't say it was wrong, that they couldn't have been victims, but it is ironic, since they were in favor of victimizing the black slaves worse.

561 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:08:23pm

re: #554 nikis-knight

You're spot on to point out that modern leftists are greatly responsible for the poor economic plight of many in the black community.

Unfortunately, they won't take credit for it - instead insisting that their failed programs simply were underfunded by the Right. As Rush points out, it's their intentions - not their results - that matter.

562 macduff  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:08:37pm

re: #556 Duane

The Huckster reminds me of President Logan from "24", and that's not good.

You know, now that you mention it, he does!

563 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:09:49pm

re: #554 nikis-knight

I'm referring to quality-of-economic-life (daily availability of food, shelter and clothing). Unfortunately, they're not around to ask them whether their political freedom made up for their economic squalor.

564 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:10:18pm

re: #547 Slumbering Behemoth

That's what I've liked about LGF - it's not simply an echo chamber. We actually have serious debates. And flame wars (like what's going on in this thread). Echo chambers are very boring, don't you think? ;-)

ECHO!

~~~~ECHO!~~~~echo!~~~~echo~~~

565 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:11:55pm

re: #559 DanishMade

Yes, the rich have a higher percentage of their income that is taken by the government.

You consider that fair?

And, my note was that 63% of the population, per the link provided, works for the government or is unemployed.

you consider that 'thriving' ?


Now, keep in mind, my real point was that it takes MANY european countries to match the output of the United States... And that is largely due to the lower taxes and free society that, until the last few decades, was largely free of government over-intervention.

566 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:15:27pm

First to Carolmill....
If Dennis Miller had a show.....he'd attract a lot of young people to the Republican party. He's my kind of Republican. He rocks!

And I agree with Rodan....I too fend off the liberals on my own turf. That's not an easy task...but I guess I'm not that much of a 'conservative' anyway, (not enough for some here)...even though I support the military, don't want universal health care, can't stand either Hillary or Obama, think penalizing people who finally start making money is an outrage, think people on welfare need to get off their asses and get jobs, am disgusted by out of wedlock babies being born to mothers who have shacked up with gang bangers who have no education and are born from uneducated, unmotivated mothers, think Islam is a death cult and want to stem immigration from countries where this 'religion' is a majority, think the borders need to be CLOSED and illegals stop getting benefits and having anchor babies.....
But on the other hand.......

I do think there needs to be a solution to gang bangers acquiring assault weapons (any solutions from you out there who keep criticizing Rudy on this?!). Why does anyone need an assault weapon?!
I live in an area where this is common. I do happen to own a gun, but some of you are out of touch in regard to this topic. If you lived not too far from the 'hood', you might re-consider the idea of taking the weapons away from these hoodlums.
I also could care less if someone is gay.
I support a woman's right to choose.
I don't want religion pushed down my throat...and I could care less what religion the president is, as long as he does his job.

So where does that leave me?

I agree that the Republican party needs to be reformed somewhat.....how about being a little more inclusive?

As someone mentioned above, times change. I 'changed' after Sept. 11th.

The most important topic for me is the eradication of radical Islam.

None of these other things matter if we're all dead.

By the way, I'm a Rudy volunteer and supporter.
He was able to unite N.Y.C. which was predominately Democrat.
If the U.S. does not get united, we are doomed!

567 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:16:13pm

re: #560 nikis-knight

Again, I'm not going to defend slavery, except to say that from the standpoint of daily availability of food, shelter and clothing, many of the "oppressed" slaves were better off (in that economic sense) in slavery than as "free" sharecroppers.

Unfortunately, they did not enjoy today's "freedom" to enjoy welfare.

I DO NOT defend the institution of slavery - I simply argue that its day-to-day passage of life IN THE CONTEXT of centuries of slavery's existence, is misunderstood today. Most people in the Old South were not evil, and the principles they held, which took them to War, were honorable - in that they warred against the oppression of a centralized government. An evil we ought to be fighting today.

568 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:17:10pm

I am offended by the anti-Huck comments. First of all, Huckabee is a staunch pro lifer and a genuine supporter of Israel who has visited nine times. He would not allow Israel to be divided or Jerusalem to be handed over to the Islamofascist mob. Secondly, there is nothing "leftist" about him. He had to raise taxes pursuant to a court order, and then lowered them. Thirdly, as far as the Constitution is concerned, he is the only GOP candidate who actually supports the GOP platform which calls for a constitutional amendment to ban abortions once Roe is overturned and it returns to the states. Otherwise, we would have liberal abortion laws in New York and California. I do not understand the nastiness being directed towards him. Also, bear in mind that AMONG REPUBLICANS as opposed to independents. the Huck did better.

569 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:20:01pm

re: #19 NYexpat

The problem was not so much that he couldn't expand beyond his base as that more of the evangelicals are getting wise to him!


You are incorrect: the Huck did better among actual Republicans than McCain did. Once again, the Indies were allowed to be the spoilers! Shame on all you anti-Huck ranters!

570 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:20:14pm
571 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:21:38pm

re: #557 LanceKates

If Thomposn would repudiate his vote for McCain-Feingold I might have a better opinion of him. Nevertheless I prefer him to Romney. The trouble is that in my state it's basically a McCain v. Romney race at this time with only Florida and Maine between now and then.

Maine is a democrat state. McCain probably wins that caucus, and it's tiny.

Florida is what will tell. The leader between the three remaining acceptable candidates in that primary is proabably getting my ABM vote.

So if Thompson pulls it out I may well back him. That's certainly a long shot.

572 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:22:14pm
573 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:22:34pm

re: #25 Pawn of the Oppressor

re: #20 Thanos


I'm happy that voters realize that we simply do not need another populist panderer from Arkansas in the oval office... regardless of the side of the aisle the profess to be on.

The interesting thing is, he'd make a superb Democrat if he could put a cork in the Gawd-and-Jaysus business. Having watched him in the press conferences debates, I think he's honestly better at verbal weaselage than Clinton.

There's Something About Arkansas...


What an offensive comment! do you have anything against Christians? Governor Huckabee was elected governor five times and hd to clean up the mess that Bill Clinton/Jim Guy Tucker left in office. He is also pro life - completely pro life. Get your facts straight!

574 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:23:54pm
575 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:24:39pm

re: #566 madmama

First to Carolmill....
If Dennis Miller had a show.....he'd attract a lot of young people to the Republican party. He's my kind of Republican. He rocks!

The Dennis Miller Show

576 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:24:47pm
577 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:25:11pm

re: #23 LoFlyer

Thompson is a weasel who does the bidding of John McCain, his pal.

578 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:25:35pm
579 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:26:18pm

re: #25 Pawn of the Oppressor

Do you have a problem with Christians? It seems that way. They happen to be a major base of the GOP - and no, I am not a Christian - just somebody who treats people with respect!

580 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:26:47pm
581 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:27:25pm
I do think there needs to be a solution to gang bangers acquiring assault weapons (any solutions from you out there who keep criticizing Rudy on this?!). Why does anyone need an assault weapon?!

No law passed will be followed by criminals. It is already illegal for those 'gangbangers' to be armed, yet they are. why do you think that additional laws will somehow make them change their mind? The assault weapons ban didn't work under Clinton, it won't work this time.

You want to cut down on violent crime? Have an armed populace... responsible gun owners actually being able to both keep AND bear firearms. When muggers have to think whether or not that little old lady is armed, they'll be less likely to attack or mug her.

If a rape victim may be armed, the rapist goes elsewhere.

Criminals themselves say that. Police say that. Gun owners say that. People with concealed carry permits like me say that.

Yet, people do not listen. It is not the gun that is the problem, but the one using it to do evil.

The only way to confront an armed evil with an armed good.

Why, then, should someone support legislation that disarms the good?


I live in an area where this is common. I do happen to own a gun, but some of you are out of touch in regard to this topic. If you lived not too far from the 'hood', you might re-consider the idea of taking the weapons away from these hoodlums.

Do not slip into the idea that pro-gun rights people are all toothless hicks from the sticks.

You don't take guns away from criminals by making another law about gun control. It is ALREADY illegal for them to have the guns that they do.... yet they do. You really think that another law will make them change their mind?

I also could care less if someone is gay.

neither do I, but I'm not going to redefine the word marriage to suit themselves.

I won't suggest (and I disagree with) federal amendments to define marriage one way or the other. it is a state's rights issue to determine if they will marry homosexuals and if they will accept those marriage licenses from those states.

I support a woman's right to choose.


I support a child's right to live.


I don't want religion pushed down my throat...and I could care less what religion the president is, as long as he does his job.

I don't see that as a conservative/liberal thing. I do see alot of non-christians suggesting that 'christians won't vote' for person X because of their religion, or are more likely to vote for person Y because of their religion. That irks me to no end to be that bigoted about christians.

I agree that the Republican party needs to be reformed somewhat.....how about being a little more inclusive?

in the same election race, we have Rudy and Duncan Hunter. That's about as inclusive as it gets. Any more 'inclusive' and one runs the risk of being so openminded that their brain falls out.

None of these other things matter if we're all dead.

Which is why I suggest that the 2nd Amendment and border security are as vital to national security as fighting overseas. Remember that those who did 9/11 were here illegally.

582 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:27:25pm
583 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:28:07pm
584 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:28:26pm

re: #574 taxfreekiller

I am quoting the people who were attacking Huckabee for being a Baptist! They are very offensive.

585 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:28:35pm

#570
First and foremost, you're not (I'm assuming) a woman, so for those of you who like to speak for me regarding a 'woman's right to choose' and my right to consul with my doctor, consider my own health, my finances, my situation in life, go take a hike.
This decision should be left up to the person involved....nobody else.

586 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:28:41pm
587 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:28:47pm

re: #564 Honorary Yooper

Echo chambers are very boring, don't you think?

Apparently there are some that would disagree with us. I am grateful that they are part of a very tiny minority.

I am also grateful for the level of intelligent debate that goes on here. Threads full of dittos would be very boring indeed.

588 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:29:21pm
589 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:30:15pm

re: #571 Crusader Rabbit

Don't let a candidates popularity sway your vote.

Vote for who you believe will do the best job.

When we vote for who is popular rather than who will do the best job, we are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

why does Thompson do bad? because too many people who WOULD want to vote for thompson vote for Romney or huckabee because 'they're more likely to win.'

590 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:30:19pm

re: #567 AuldTrafford

Slavery sure is misunderstood today--it is understood as something white american christians did to poor blacks, when in reality, before the out lawing of the slave trade by those white christians, no culture had a problem owning slaves, just with being them. (A ship of slaves made it's way to America after revolting. America would not return them. The leader, returning to Africa, became a slave trader himself!)

As for slaves having it better materially, well, people need no incentive to take care of their "stuff."

Most people in the Old South were not evil, and the principles they held, which took them to War, were honorable - in that they warred against the oppression of a centralized government. An evil we ought to be fighting today.

The evil they were fighting for, though, was worse than the one they were against, even if both were endemic to their times.

591 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:30:38pm
592 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:32:14pm

re: #568 Alibaba

Go right ahead and be offended. No one said you had a right not to be offended. Huckabee has a venier of social conservative, but is all fiscal liberal.

Look at his record.

593 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:32:43pm
594 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:33:34pm

re: #590 nikis-knight

There was already large anti-slavery programs in the southern states, gaining support.

if the north was truely about solving an issue of slavery, they could have worked through and funded those groups.

Instead, they used the federal government to their advantage, requiring that all new territories be slave-free, guarenteeing that the north's wishes would be fulfilled by federal mandate.

Of course, suggesting that it was about power isn't very popular since the south lost.

595 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:34:03pm

re: #59 LanceKates

I am with you. I think that Rudy would absolutely bring about a third party run by a right to life Republican or conservative. The attacks on Christians that I am seeing are very, very dismaying. I expected better from some people.

596 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:34:27pm
597 redstateredneck  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:35:00pm

re: #578 taxfreekiller

Pop Corn Popper cooking school Dean for Pres. is that a good idea.

His campaign slogan can be "A squirrel in every popper".
:D

598 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:35:17pm

re: #590 nikis-knight

Well, don't know what else to say, except again to refer you to this pretty-well stated and supported article (takes about 5 minutes to skim through). I don't think the South fought for slavery - it was a doomed institution, and cost slaveholders more than sharecropping, as we discussed.

Don't guess I'm going to change your mind, though. And you certainly have the right of might on your side. Very few today who will take my side in this argument; I'll admit that. The North did, after all, win the War, and so they get to write the history books.

599 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:35:31pm

Regarding 'gang bangers'.....my solution would be to round them up (the police know who they are ....most of them have extensive rap sheets), search their homes and take their guns away. Then I'd throw them in jail FOREVER!
Our legal system is geared to protect these mutants.
A law abiding citizen shouldn't have anything to worry about.
But of course, you'd have every civil liberties groups up in arms.
I'm all for the 2nd ammendment.....but someone needs some good ideas as to how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, short of my suggestion here.

600 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:36:06pm

re: #592 Honorary Yooper

He left office with a surplus and in 2002 received 47% of the black vote. I don't think Rudy, McCain or Romney ever received such a large percentage of minority votes. He had to raise taxes pursuant to a court order. Ronald Reagan, as you may recall, also raised taxes - and then cut them. Why don't you have a Ronald Reagan bashing session while you are at it? I don't think you would! He also supports the fair tax.

601 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:37:23pm

re: #584 Alibaba

re: #574 taxfreekiller

I am quoting the people who were attacking Huckabee for being a Baptist! They are very offensive.

Lighten up, Francis.

Look, some of us who are Christian aren't very thrilled with evangelicals for many reasons, not the least of which are theological.

602 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:37:49pm
603 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:38:34pm

re: #585 madmama

Society has an interst - an obligation - to protect innocent life. We have laws against murder and rape although we can't prove that having laws actually prevents murder and rape. We show our disapproval of certain behavior by banning it! There are instructions on aspirin bottles and warning labels . . .

604 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:38:38pm

re: #599 madmama

Our legal system is geared to protect these mutants.

which is, of course, vastly tilted to the left.

But of course, you'd have every civil liberties groups up in arms.

also vastly tilted to the left.

I'm all for the 2nd ammendment.....but someone needs some good ideas as to how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, short of my suggestion here.

here it is. short and sweet:

When a gang banger tries to use a gun in a crime, the victim needs to have a gun to shoot them.

Then, one less gang-banger.

605 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:39:43pm
606 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:40:57pm

Remember... you give up your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness when you try to take mine.

607 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:41:00pm

re: #595 Alibaba

re: #59 LanceKates

I am with you. I think that Rudy would absolutely bring about a third party run by a right to life Republican or conservative. The attacks on Christians that I am seeing are very, very dismaying. I expected better from some people.

Attacks on Christians my rear end. Huckabee turns his act on and off like a light bulb. That was very apparent in New Hampshire.

608 Colonel Panik  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:41:08pm

re: #566 madmama


I do think there needs to be a solution to gang bangers acquiring assault weapons (any solutions from you out there who keep criticizing Rudy on this?!). Why does anyone need an assault weapon?!
I live in an area where this is common. I do happen to own a gun, but some of you are out of touch in regard to this topic. If you lived not too far from the 'hood', you might re-consider the idea of taking the weapons away from these hoodlums.

The solution is long jail terms with no plea bargains for hoodlums using weapons of any type in a crime, whether it is a .38 caliber revolver or an AR-15. Few criminals use "assault weapons" in crime anyway as rifles are difficult to conceal. But because semi-auto AR-15's etc LOOK like their full auto military counterparts, it's easy for the liberals to get people such as yourself all emotionally riled up about them.

Historically, the 2nd amendment has always guaranteed Americans the right to own the analogue of what ever was the current military rifle and
pistol at the time. There are sound national security reasons for this: having a pool of people familiar with the weapon of the military in case of the need for a massive call up.
Today's military rifle has a 30 round magazine and a pistol grip. Some liberals see that and go BOOGA BOOGA! in the media and people think it is a machine gun and needs to be banned.

Saying that people can't own AR-15's because the rebels at Lexington and Concord only had muskets is like saying that the first amendment only applies to quill pens and hand operated printing presses.

Why does any one need them? For the reason outlined above. Because
they are fun to shoot. And because when Jihad Johnny shows up on our shores, he's going to be facing a lot of people who will be able to shoot back.

609 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:41:34pm
610 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:42:55pm

re: #607 Honorary Yooper

once again, this isn't about huckabee's political stances... but about the notion that person A being a christian is somehow more likely to vote for huckabee.... because us christians would do that.

It is a negative slant on christianity, which is just as offensive now as when Garrison Kiellor (sp?) suggested in a speech that christians lose the right to vote because we have more than one allegiance (talking about allegiance to God)

611 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:42:58pm
612 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:44:27pm

re: #609 Rodan

That's fine with me. Good luck getting that to happen though.

Any show up breaking into my home and they'll be carried out.

613 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:44:30pm

Lance Kates,
You are wrong in one regard, most everyone I know, here in South Florida, owns a gun. Many carry. It does not deter the gang bangers one bit...(although they usually just prey on their own).
I just had a conversation with a local policeman who came to my house because someone hit my car and took off.
He said that Florida's laws are the worst (he's from the Chicago) in regard to the thugs....and them getting off.

614 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:45:28pm

re: #72 jcm

Hate to break it to you but Rudy is now trailing even in New York State - and this is a RINO state, believe me! The Huck can and will pick up again.

615 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:45:46pm
616 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:45:57pm

re: #607 Honorary Yooper

Wrong!

617 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:46:00pm

re: #611 taxfreekiller

I have a slight issue with carrying a gun in the car.

not from the 'rights' standpoint, but just from a 'fear of theft' standpoint.

now, when a hoodlum breaks into your car while you're inside the store, they get your Cds and your gun.

I predict that those who oppose guns in your car will use this argument to get it eliminated.

I would use the tactic to suggest that it should therefore be proof that we should be able to carry it on our person when we go INTO the store.

618 debutaunt  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:46:01pm

re: #596 taxfreekiller

Modern use of humans as wage slaves is no better than the real slavery of times prior, the useage ends up the same.

I'm not following the comparison.

619 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:46:02pm
620 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:47:39pm
621 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:48:09pm

re: #592 Honorary Yooper
I did look at his record: he left office with a surplus and received 47% of the black vote. What is your problem or are you one of those "Rudy really wants to lose first so then he can win" folks?

622 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:48:36pm
623 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:49:03pm

re: #613 madmama

It isn't enough to have a gun in your home. It must be with you.

A gun in your home doesn't protect you when you're mugged, raped and shot while out on the town one night.

Most crimes happen away from the home, not in it.

If there is no threat that you have a gun on you, they have no problem victimizing you.

end of story.

624 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:49:42pm
625 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:50:12pm

re: #620 Rodan

We can't even wage a war on drugs.

We're not going to confront the gangs.

Defend yourself first.

626 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:50:19pm

re: #67 itellu3times

Oh, yes: Rudy "plans" on being a loser? He is losing in New York right now according to the latest polls.

627 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:50:21pm

Clemency!

Now let's give that man the power of Presidential Pardon!

628 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:51:05pm

re: #610 LanceKates

re: #607 Honorary Yooper

once again, this isn't about huckabee's political stances... but about the notion that person A being a christian is somehow more likely to vote for huckabee.... because us christians would do that.

It is a negative slant on christianity, which is just as offensive now as when Garrison Kiellor (sp?) suggested in a speech that christians lose the right to vote because we have more than one allegiance (talking about allegiance to God)

Well, that's been suggested by some Christians of other Christians in the past. The Know-Nothings come to mind, as does the KKK in the 1920s. Even today, we suffer it from the hands of other Chirstians.

And don't get me started on Jack Chick Tract Shit either. Those things belong in the fireplace as kindling.

629 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:51:18pm
630 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:51:50pm

You know, I'm not going to speak to Huckabee's pardoning record, mostly because I don't know much about it.

I'm not a big huckabee fan, and I haven't been from the beginning.

Unfortunately those I DO support keep dropping out of the race.

Perhaps I should start Supporting Hillary and Obama, eh? heh.

631 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:51:55pm

re: #622 taxfreekiller

Oh, aren't you the clever one.

There once was a man named Rudy
Who thought he could play Punch and Judy.
He took away their guns,
And said it was fun
And now Rudy-Toots is alone with his cutey!

632 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:51:57pm

re: #616 Alibaba

re: #607 Honorary Yooper

Wrong!

Wrong how? Please, be my guest and use your keyboard.

633 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:52:38pm

#619
I agree. I have a quick story.....an acquaintance told my husband that in the process of robbing his house, a criminal fell down the ladder he was using to gain access into the house, when confronted by the homeowner with the gun...the perp fell.
Get ready......the perp was going to SUE the homeowner for making him fall down the ladder (while trying to ROB his house).
I don't know the outcome of this story.....but that is my story of the day.
As I mentioned, I was talking to a policeman outside of my house the other night and my husband told him that story.
I mentioned that I would shot the guy instead and dragged him into my houses.
the cop said.....just don't forget....shoot a few rounds in the house so that you can prove that you shot him inside the house!

634 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:52:57pm
635 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:53:32pm

re: #621 Alibaba

re: #592 Honorary Yooper
I did look at his record: he left office with a surplus and received 47% of the black vote. What is your problem or are you one of those "Rudy really wants to lose first so then he can win" folks?

Nope, but Huck's quotes on Iran really bother me. The time for talking with them is over.

636 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:53:35pm
637 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:54:01pm

re: #629 Rodan

I wouldn't choose to carry at a bar for that reason, but that choice should be up to me, not up to the government.

It should also be up to the barowner, not the government.

Frankly, if you have a gun, are you going to pull it in a room with a hundred or two other armed people who already hate you for being obnoxious?

Even DRUNK I wouldn't take on those odds.

but then, I don't do drunk.

638 Crusader Rabbit  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:54:01pm

re: #589 LanceKates

re: #571 Crusader Rabbit

Don't let a candidates popularity sway your vote.


If I did that in AZ I'd be a McCain supporter. It is more likely that I will grow gills and learn to swim under the sea.


Vote for who you believe will do the best job.


I also don't think Thompson would do the best job as I have described previously and at some length. A guy who is soft on the first Amendment as applied to electoral politics is probably not going to make a good President. That is the realm of tyrants.


When we vote for who is popular rather than who will do the best job, we are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

why does Thompson do bad? because too many people who WOULD want to vote for thompson vote for Romney or huckabee because 'they're more likely to win.'

Thompson doesn't do well in my state because it is the home state of one candidate and the home of many co-religionists of another. Thompson isn't either of those people. That's the situation on the ground. I refuse to cover my eyes and pretend I live in some idealization of democracy not reflected by reality. That's not a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's a thorough understanding of politics in my state.

Elections are always an either/or proposition. If the general election is between, any dem, any republican and George S. Patton, I would reluctantly vote for the republican because despite my assessment that Patton is the best man for the job, I understand that I have the choice of a dem or not-a-dem.

If I live in a state that's close then I have to vote not-a-dem regardless of his flaws. Only when it's no contest do I have the liberty to vote my ideals without consequence (as it was in 92 in Texas).

The primary is very much the same here, just replace "dem" with "Captain Queeg".

639 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:54:17pm

re: #1 Carl in Jerusalem

Huckabee has visited Israel nine times and McCain in a leftwing Israeli newspaper said that Israel should return to its 1967 borders. How does that grab you?

640 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:55:08pm

re: #633 madmama

in a few european countries, homeowners have been put in prison for being a 'threat' to criminals, for fighting back after having their house broken into a large number of times.

They even tried that in Ohio, when a guy shot a criminal who broke in.

I don't believe it worked in Ohio.

641 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:55:16pm

sorry...'I mentioned that I would shoot the guy instead and drag him into my house'.......the kids distracted me!

642 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:55:28pm

re: #4 Alouette
Huck is the most pro Israel and has visited nine times. Sometimes I wonder about people who claim to be pro Israel and use words like "Huck the schmuck". Very nice.

643 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:55:44pm

re: #630 LanceKates

You know, I'm not going to speak to Huckabee's pardoning record, mostly because I don't know much about it.

I'm not a big huckabee fan, and I haven't been from the beginning.

Unfortunately those I DO support keep dropping out of the race.

Perhaps I should start Supporting Hillary and Obama, eh? heh.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Sorry, that struck me as funny. LOL! :-D

Hell, who knows, it might actually knock them out of the race with your luck right now. ;-)

On a serious note, I could see Hunter coming back as a VP candidate. It would be good for him, and get him a lot more name recognition nationally.

644 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:55:53pm
645 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:56:07pm
646 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:56:28pm

re: #628 Honorary Yooper

And don't get me started on Jack Chick Tract Shit either. Those things belong in the fireplace as kindling.

Amen to that, brother. One of my christian-socialist relatives bought me the whole line of comics when I was a kid. They were laughable at best.

I still have a copy of this one.

647 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:57:19pm
648 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:58:05pm

re: #641 madmama

The cops, uh, frown on you moving a body after you shoot it.

That tends to get you in jail pretty quickly.

649 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:58:47pm

re: #643 Honorary Yooper

I'm hoping so.I'm SO afraid that it is going to be Rudy Romney or Romney Rudy.

650 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 1:59:01pm

Lance....
My husband and I are thinking of getting our Concealed weapons permit.
The only problem I have is that I have two little boys ....ages 4 and 9.
They LOVE guns (toy).
How do you deal with that?.....show them and tell them.".no, no" or don't show them and hope they don't find it.
I know about gun locks...but how does that work when confronted with someone suddenly?
I'd have to carry it in my purse or on my body....how does a woman wear a gun?.....no socks, bo belts, possibly a dress, tight pants?!

651 Colonel Panik  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:00:42pm

re: #629 Rodan

re: #623 LanceKates

I agree with carrying guns on you, but there should be exceptions. Bars and Nightclubs should be Gun free. Guns and liquor don't mix.

As the T-Shirt says, I've always felt that Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

652 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:01:09pm

Rodan,
I don't know what the law is here in Fla about suing someone after trying to commit a crime. I do know that we also have the Castle doctrine.

653 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:01:29pm

re: #647 Rodan

And even then, while I think that a business should be able to throw me out for carrying, it should not be illegal for me to carry there.

In most states, if a place is posted, you can still carry if you have a permit. If they see that you're carrying, they can ask you to leave. If you refuse, it is tresspassing.

that is, to me, fair.

In my state, if I carry in a posted place, it is the same as carrying at a school. 6 months in jail, giant fine and loss of permit.

Also, there are no regulations as to how they have to post it. One place will have a 'no gun' sticker, another will show a gun with a 'no' sign over it, and one store I (used to) go to just had the words "no weapons permitted" in small print underneath the handicap accessible sign.

All of those, including just crayon on cardboard set up in the windowsill are equally legally valid.

It is not upon them to tell me that I can't carry, it is upon me to stand there like a doofus and read all of the words on the front of the building to see if I can find something that wouldn't let me carry.... or else I go to jail.

654 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:02:02pm
655 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:03:03pm

re: #646 Slumbering Behemoth

Being Catholic, you have to deal with that kind of crap from time to time from people who are supposed to be your fellow Christians.

656 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:04:04pm

re: #594 LanceKates
Government role in protecting Life & Liberty of all men was hardly some novel use of governemnt, though. It was what the Federal government was set up for from the time of the declaration, and intruding on state's rights in slavery was perfectly in keeping with the founders work.
re: #598 AuldTrafford

re: #590 nikis-knight

Well, don't know what else to say, except again to refer you to this pretty-well stated and supported article (takes about 5 minutes to skim through). I don't think the South fought for slavery - it was a doomed institution, and cost slaveholders more than sharecropping, as we discussed.

Don't guess I'm going to change your mind, though. And you certainly have the right of might on your side. Very few today who will take my side in this argument; I'll admit that. The North did, after all, win the War, and so they get to write the history books.

No, I don't think you are at the moment; the farthest I'll go is to say, again, slavery was why they left, but not why they (mostly) fought. The economic efficiency of slavery isn't an issue (as a free-marketer, of course I think it makes miserable economic sense)--they were also afraid of the consequences of emancipation.

by the way, regarding your pointing out the welfare of slaves in slavery versus freedom as a way of mitigating the evil of the institution (rather than excusing it, of course), the same arguement could be made, ironically, for socialism. "You'll be better off if you let the government make more and more of your decisions."

Or, rather, not that ironic. Socialism is simply impersonal slavery, at least in the extreme.

657 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:05:12pm
658 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:06:16pm

re: #650 madmama

How do you deal with that?.....show them and tell them.".no, no" or don't show them and hope they don't find it.

At that young, a good gun safe with a combination lock will work. they make small ones that can fit on your nightstand that they can't open.

When they get a little older (12?) sign them up for hunter education classes. They don't have to want to hunt, but they'll learn basic firearm safety.

education is always more important than censorship.

Remember, kids find your hidden christmas presents, they'll find your gun if it is hidden. Lock it in a combination safe so that you can open it quickly at night and get it.

I know about gun locks...but how does that work when confronted with someone suddenly?

It doesn't. All of my guns HAVE locks, and all but my carry pistol ARE locked. My carry pistol is kept in a safe that only I can open. Whenever I'm able, I carry it on my person, which is safer than any safe.

I'd have to carry it in my purse or on my body....how does a woman wear a gun?.....no socks, bo belts, possibly a dress, tight pants?!

they make small holters for smaller revolvers and semi-autos that'd fit in a pocket in your purse... just don't put anything else in there.

They also make purses with a special emergency velcro pouch that you keep your holstered firearm in.

as for on you, it depends on the pistol. With tight pants, you're limited to carrying in your purse if you are going to keep it concealed.

659 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:07:22pm
660 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:08:02pm

re: #642 Alibaba

re: #4 Alouette
Huck is the most pro Israel and has visited nine times. Sometimes I wonder about people who claim to be pro Israel and use words like "Huck the schmuck". Very nice.

I'm sick and tired of Zionist Evangelical Christians with their one-trick-pony mentality. First of all, this is America we're talking about! Israel is important, but it is religious nuts who make Israel the very first and only priority because it's the land talked about in the Bible that give some justification and backing to conspiracist idiots who think Israel is controlling the US political system.

I don't care if his "pro-Israel" apocalyptic tendencies are genuine, he is a sick slick crook, just like Bill Clinton (there must be something in the air in Arkansas), a leftist, a statist, corrupt, big spending republican, of the worst of both worlds (fiscally liberal, socially conservative). And he would drag the GoP to the mud if he won, which he won't, but if he did, then the Republican Party would never see the oval office again in decades!

Yeah, sometime I wonder about people who claim to be pro Israel... Give me a break!

661 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:08:13pm

re: #654 taxfreekiller

There once was a man named Fred (Thompson)
Who looked as if he were dead
Then Mike came along, and
Took care of this clown
and now he watches
Law and Order reruns
in bed!

662 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:08:29pm

re: #657 Rodan

Frankly, if I'm in any kind of shop where I'm attacked by a criminal with a weapon, I'm gonig to sue the shop-owner who forcibly disarmed me with their 'no weapons permitted' sign.

If in a place like a bar or at a school, I'm going to sue the state for forcibly disarming me when I could otherwise have defended myself.

If I don't survive, my family will hopefully do that for me to protect future 'would be victims'

663 Colonel Panik  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:08:31pm

re: #650 madmama

Lance....
My husband and I are thinking of getting our Concealed weapons permit.
The only problem I have is that I have two little boys ....ages 4 and 9.
They LOVE guns (toy).
How do you deal with that?.....show them and tell them.".no, no" or don't show them and hope they don't find it.
I know about gun locks...but how does that work when confronted with someone suddenly?
I'd have to carry it in my purse or on my body....how does a woman wear a gun?.....no socks, bo belts, possibly a dress, tight pants?!

Best solution for a home with kids is a biometric gun safe. They are cheap now...$200 or less. You can keep it loaded in the safe and just press a combo of buttons or even get one that reads you and your hubby's fingerprints.


Lots of the holster mfrs. like Galco, Bianchi, etc. make conceal carry purses for women.

Just don't forget and leave it some place!

Teach your kids early the difference between real and toy guns. They will understand. NRA has good programs for youth gun safety and instruction.

664 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:09:08pm
665 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:09:18pm

re: #660 medaura18586

Aren't you the little bigot!

666 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:09:58pm

re: #664 Rodan

yup.

667 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:11:03pm

re: #656 nikis-knight

OK. Interesting discussion - on the cause of the War, agree to disagree.

With respect to slavery vs. socialism, the fact is that in practice (i) slaves were, at least in some cases, a bit better off than the sharecroppers (strictly in materialistic terms - I understand freedom is a potentially outweighing element), but (ii) socialism usually results in everyone (except the Government rulers) being worse off.

I think this is explained by the fact that (as you pointed out) slaveowners had the natural motivation to protect their property; the society was still essentially entrepenurial (OK, OK - not for the slaves). In a socialism, on the other hand, there is no real economic incentive to do much of anything (the more you produce, the more is taken by the State to be given to those who do not produce).

668 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:11:25pm
669 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:11:29pm

re: #655 Honorary Yooper

I'm not catholic myself, but I sure did love the gal's uniforms back when I was a teen. That Jack Chick stuff is just insane, though.

The ones that bother me the most are the ones who claim to be staunch conservatives while spouting nanny-statist, socialist ideals, and use their faith to justify such contrary stances.

670 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:11:29pm

re: #663 Colonel Panik

I ran across a lefty who tried to say that the Eddie the Eagle program was a total failure because it, designed for kindergarden through 4th grade or so, failed when tested on 4 and 5 year olds.

utter idiocy.

671 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:12:54pm

re: #668 Rodan

soviets did it. 100 million dead.
chinese did it. untold numbers dead.
Nazis did it. millions upon millions dead.
the populace is disarmed in Darfur... look at that place.

Yes... anytime you remove guns, you pave the way for tyranny and oppression..... and mass murder.

672 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:13:03pm

re: #665 Alibaba

[Link: vodkapundit.com...] beat it! Huckabee is defying expectations, but there is not a chance in hell he will get anywhere. So this is all irrelevant, and anyone's idiocy in supporting him will go in vain, but your myopia should be smacked on its own merits.

673 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:13:38pm
674 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:14:19pm

re: #659 Rodan

re: #655 Honorary Yooper

Yes. You should see the anti-Catholic conspiracies that some radical Fundamentalists spew. It's sick. It reminds me of the anti-Jew conspiracies. Some even connect them!

I know, Rodan. That's one of the reasons why I can be very cold toward fundies here. Like I said, not all Christians are thrilled with evangelicals. And I totally agree, it is sick.

675 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:14:34pm

re: #667 AuldTrafford

re: #656 nikis-knight

OK. Interesting discussion - on the cause of the War, agree to disagree.

With respect to slavery vs. socialism, the fact is that in practice (i) slaves were, at least in some cases, a bit better off than the sharecroppers (strictly in materialistic terms - I understand freedom is a potentially outweighing element), but (ii) socialism usually results in everyone (except the Government rulers) being worse off.

I think this is explained by the fact that (as you pointed out) slaveowners had the natural motivation to protect their property; the society was still essentially entrepenurial (OK, OK - not for the slaves). In a socialism, on the other hand, there is no real economic incentive to do much of anything (the more you produce, the more is taken by the State to be given to those who do not produce).


Yeah, what I mean by "impersonal slavery" is that, fitting with leftism in general, it cares about groups. So long as the society as a whole is being productive, it doesn't care about any individual's productivity. Once the freeloaders start to outweigh the contributers, and the state's credit starts to go, of course...
I don't know, but it will be interesting (in a sad way) to see Europe in 20 years.

676 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:15:21pm

re: #669 Slumbering Behemoth

Remember.. there are MANY liberal christians.

Conservativism doesn't own christianity... there are many who bought into the lie that Jesus was a pacifist and that the liberal's programs actually benefit society.

677 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:15:33pm

re: #660 medaura18586

Did Bill Clinton put you up to writing this incoherent swill or was it George Soros? Very similar. . .

678 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:16:04pm

re: #675 nikis-knight

When you get to where I'll be in 20 years, tell me about it! I think I'm a bit older than you.

Well, maybe 20, but it's stretching it a bit.

679 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:16:46pm

re: #678 AuldTrafford

I'm only 28.

I just want a family and a good country to raise them in where I and they are not dependent upon the government for daily life.

680 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:17:24pm

It's why I'm able to talk about the Civil War so cogently - I was there, you see!

681 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:17:44pm

re: #665 Alibaba

re: #660 medaura18586

Aren't you the little bigot!

There needs to be a Godwin's type law for this. Crying bigot is a leftist tactic, and it's been showing up here a bit too much.

682 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:18:26pm

re: #675 nikis-knight

re: #667 AuldTrafford

re: #656 nikis-knight

OK. Interesting discussion - on the cause of the War, agree to disagree.

With respect to slavery vs. socialism, the fact is that in practice (i) slaves were, at least in some cases, a bit better off than the sharecroppers (strictly in materialistic terms - I understand freedom is a potentially outweighing element), but (ii) socialism usually results in everyone (except the Government rulers) being worse off.

I think this is explained by the fact that (as you pointed out) slaveowners had the natural motivation to protect their property; the society was still essentially entrepenurial (OK, OK - not for the slaves). In a socialism, on the other hand, there is no real economic incentive to do much of anything (the more you produce, the more is taken by the State to be given to those who do not produce).


Yeah, what I mean by "impersonal slavery" is that, fitting with leftism in general, it cares about groups. So long as the society as a whole is being productive, it doesn't care about any individual's productivity. Once the freeloaders start to outweigh the contributers, and the state's credit starts to go, of course...
I don't know, but it will be interesting (in a sad way) to see Europe in 20 years.

Isn't it interesting to see Europe even now already? The Old Continent has a lot of fat to burn, from its imperial riches of centuries past,.. but it is surely burning... Mandela is doing to South Africa what Western Europe is doing to itself, but the reality check of how collectivism doesn't work, is imminent in poor places that start with nothing, but slow and lagged somewhere like Europe, where there is a capital base to waste...

683 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:18:33pm

re: #672 medaura18586

For your information, we are running a fully slate in my state - and, it has lots of "diversity" as they say. Remember: no senator has been elected president since JFK. Keep that in mind. And Huckabee was a governor as was Mitt Romney. There is a reason for that: administrative skills plus senators have long voting records - such as Thompson, McCain, Mrs. Clinton and Barack Obama - and people have long memories. McCain/Feingold, "I voted for it before I voted against it".

684 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:18:53pm

re: #676 LanceKates

re: #669 Slumbering Behemoth

Remember.. there are MANY liberal christians.

Conservativism doesn't own christianity...

And the converse is just as true.

Conservative /= Christian, no matter what the MSM tries to say or do. They are two different things. One can be both, or just one (or for that matter, neither), but one needn't have to be one to be the other.

685 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:19:28pm

re: #681 Slumbering Behemoth

That's because LEFTISTS have been coming on such as the person whom I answered who spewed out all the hatred.

686 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:19:44pm
687 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:20:20pm

re: #679 LanceKates

re: #678 AuldTrafford

I'm only 28.

I just want a family and a good country to raise them in where I and they are not dependent upon the government for daily life.

If Hillary is elected this time (or Barak for that matter), I think there is a real danger you won't make my age without a major Constitutional crisis. Social Security, alone, will break us. They say in 20 years (and you've got a bit more than that to reach my age), we'll just barely be able to pay interest on the national debt.

688 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:20:55pm

re: #684 Honorary Yooper

Which is why I take offense at the canard that 'evangelicals' vote for huckabee because they're too bigoted to vote for a mormon.

689 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:22:03pm

re: #687 AuldTrafford

No, don't worry, Congress solved that problem.

You see, when the national debt hit the debt cap where we were no longer going to accept more debt as a nation, they just raised the cap.

see? crisis averted.

(Oh, imagine the horror if private businesses could operate that way)

690 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:22:05pm
691 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:22:06pm

re: #674 Honorary Yooper

"fundies?" Very nice language. Is that like the N WORD? I really am seeing a lot of bigotry on this thread. I do not care for the word "fundies" and I am not "fundie". Or is it spelled "fundy?" Very nice, people. Great use of language!

692 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:22:08pm

Geeze folks, let's rip one another up.

The Preamble

Listen to it.

693 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:22:41pm

re: #676 LanceKates

re: #669 Slumbering Behemoth

Remember.. there are MANY liberal christians.

Conservativism doesn't own christianity... there are many who bought into the lie that Jesus was a pacifist and that the liberal's programs actually benefit society.

I am aware of that, but I am speaking specifically of the hypocrites who call themselves staunch conservatives simply because they are christian, all the while espousing socialist ideals. I have people like that in my family, their twisted ideology is bewildering to say the least.

694 nikis-knight  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:23:12pm

re: #678 AuldTrafford

re: #675 nikis-knight

When you get to where I'll be in 20 years, tell me about it! I think I'm a bit older than you.

Well, maybe 20, but it's stretching it a bit.

re: #680 AuldTrafford
? So when I get to be 168, you want to talk again? (Not sure if I quite understand what you're saying in the first part ;)) But anyway, I'll still be at LGF in 20 years, I'm sure, though by then it will probably be automated and beamed into my head directly.

It's why I'm able to talk about the Civil War so cogently - I was there, you see!
695 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:23:33pm

re: #689 LanceKates

Crisis not averted; only postponed. Like postponing death ... it may work for a while, but the cards just keep stacking higher and higher ...

696 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:24:03pm

re: #690 Rodan

no worries. I'm generally far too lazy to hold a grudge.

697 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:24:48pm

re: #691 Alibaba

seriously... you started to have a point with the anti-huckabee stuff.... but now you're just trying to create conflict.
Stop.

698 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:25:04pm

re: #685 Alibaba

re: #681 Slumbering Behemoth

That's because LEFTISTS have been coming on such as the person whom I answered who spewed out all the hatred.

And you decide to use the same tactic? I think you gave yourself away.

699 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:25:13pm

re: #694 nikis-knight

I meant maybe I'll get another 20 (not that I am 20); it's against the odds, tho.

700 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:25:45pm

re: #695 AuldTrafford

well the crisis was not the debt, but having to DEAL with the debt.

That's the government way. Pass the Buck (or, in this case, over 9 trillion bucks)

701 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:26:33pm

re: #691 Alibaba

Lighten up, Francis.

702 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:26:56pm

re: #700 LanceKates

Right.

703 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:27:00pm

re: #683 Alibaba

What the hell does that have to do with anything? I have heard this "only governors win presidential elections" sound bite before, and it is absolutely retarded. No woman and no black has ever won the candidacy in the entire friggin history of the US, let alone since JFK, yet we stand at some very strong odds of Hillary or Obama successfully insinuating themselves into the White House. The knee-jerk connection people make to infer causality, "governors have historically won because they were governors" is so mentally lazy, that the only people who would invoke it are those who are running out of intelligent reasons to support either Romney or Huckabee.

For anyone's information, and let the tomatoes be thrown,.. I would vote for Hillary anyday before Huckabee.

Read what others have to say:

At least a Dem socialist would be fought tooth and nail by Republicans in Congress. Those same Republicans will probably support at least some of a Republican socialist's agenda out of party loyalty.

If the country's going to be destroyed by a President following a socialist agenda, I'd prefer it be a democrat that gets the blame for it. Huckabee gives the Democratic press an excuse to blame the GOP for all the things they would have done, then elect Obama in four years for more of the same, whereas an Obama or Hillary now does it, that'll pave the way for a real conservative in four years instead of another F*&^*(%%in' RINO. Unfortunately, I don't think the country can survive four years of either Huckabee or one of the Dems so I'm not sure any of this matters.

704 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:27:43pm

re: #702 AuldTrafford

meanwhile, americans have to live with it.

Just think... in a decade, Social Security will need a boost or face underfunding.

705 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:28:00pm
706 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:29:52pm

re: #704 LanceKates

Needs it now. A good argument to be made that 10 years from now will be too late.

Obviously, there will always be a way to deal with it - just cancel the program, for instance. The question is whether the patient survives the operation.

707 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:30:04pm

re: #698 Slumbering Behemoth


Hahha... calling me a LEFTIST, is s/he? When I walk into a room, almost everyone turns Stalinist by comparison. Some people just have a verbal diarrhea of dissonant labels when they don't know how to respond intelligently.

708 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:30:40pm

re: #657 Rodan,

Technically, knives are illegal in bars. It has not been my experience that they are actually kept out. Nothing is said about knives.

I imagine that guns would be similar. You take note of them, but you don't call the cops.

709 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:30:45pm
710 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:30:53pm

re: #681 Slumbering Behemoth

I call it like I see it. Brentt Bozell was right about anti-Christian bigotry and I am seeing it in spades on this thread. Some people really should be ashamed of themselves. If you did not like a particular policy of Governor Huckabee you should say so without nasty and hateful references to "fundies". It is obvious that some people are incapable of that - and look down on devout Christians, a big GOP voting block. That's right - drive them out and watch what happens in the next election. It won't be pretty! Unless, of course, there are Hillary/Obama supporters posting here.

711 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:32:08pm
712 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:32:35pm

re: #703 medaura18586

Huckabee improved education in Arkansas and left with a surplus. I really don't know what your problem is unless you actually are a Hillary/Obama supporter.

713 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:33:40pm
714 AuldTrafford  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:33:53pm

Well, probaby another 3 or 4 new threads by now; think I'll go lurk on one of them.

Talk about being driven to drink ...

Thanks for the chat, y'all. Hasta Luego.

715 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:34:02pm

re: #706 AuldTrafford

I agree. We REALLY are screwed if congress just keeps passing the buck.

Though, a good portion of that does cancel out if we consider loans we owe to country X paid by loans we GAVE to country X.

the key is to not just limit spending, but gut out alot of government crap that OUGHT to be handled by private charities or private entities.

Then, actually work for a yearly surplus to bay pack the loans we owe, plus some to knock it out.

It could, and should, be done without raising taxes.

716 Rodan[deleted]  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:35:00pm
717 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:35:06pm

re: #708 Iron Fist

Very true.

one doesn't even need a permit to carry knives around with them, as long as they are below a certain blade length.

maybe the same could be said of guns under a certain caliber? heh.

lethal is lethal, whether it would be used as such or not.

718 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:35:26pm

re: #711 Rodan

re: #708 Iron Fist

Yeah I think it's the Bar's discretion. I'm just not a fan of weapons in a bar.

you would be if it were your ass saved by one.

719 Carolmill  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:36:18pm

re: #566 madmama

Dennis Miller was my first choice. The list isn't very long, because I don't know of many comedians who would be willing to sell their souls for the other side. Someone might laugh at them.

720 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:37:00pm

re: #703 medaura18586

Oh, yes, and that other brilliant female Gerry Ferraro, did really, really well! The Dems are big on "identity politics" - Obama and Hillary prove that in spades and so did Joe Lieberman. And they all lost. The fact is that no senator has been elected since JFK!

721 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:38:31pm

re: #692 Iron Fist

Geeze folks, let's rip one another up.

The Preamble

Listen to it.

Apparently Gov. Huckabee doesn't have much respect for the intellect of our founding fathers, nor the rest of us for that matter.

Are conservatives who parrot liberal talking points actually conservative?

BTW, nice link Iron Fist, thanks.

722 LanceKates  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:38:42pm

re: #720 Alibaba

then there'd be no threat of not running Huckabee but, instead, running someone like, say, Duncan Hunter.

Someone who is a real and proven conservative.

723 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:39:12pm

re: #713 Rodan

I am seeing anti Christian bigotry period. Period. Did that answer your question? The use of the word "fundies" was very, very revealing and the constant referalls to overnog Huckabee's Baptist faith. Gee, I didn't know the Huck was a Christian, did you? Do you think the cable guy is a "fundie?"

724 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:41:08pm

re: #710 Alibaba

re: #681 Slumbering Behemoth

I call it like I see it. Brentt Bozell was right about anti-Christian bigotry and I am seeing it in spades on this thread. Some people really should be ashamed of themselves. If you did not like a particular policy of Governor Huckabee you should say so without nasty and hateful references to "fundies". It is obvious that some people are incapable of that - and look down on devout Christians, a big GOP voting block. That's right - drive them out and watch what happens in the next election. It won't be pretty! Unless, of course, there are Hillary/Obama supporters posting here.

If we drive the "fundies" out,.. and by the way, the "fundies" are a very small fraction of the electorate, even the greater GOP voting block. The reason they are so influential, is because like just about any religion, they vote in block/unison. It is much easier to throw a bone at 5% of your electorate to keep them happy, than to integrate the individual needs and world-views of 35% of the electorate, if they don't lend themselves to group-think mentality.

If the "fundies" are driven out, then the GoP would win so many more people at the margins, young secular conservative/independent voters who don't want to be associated with your likes. And it would be a true revival of the GoP, allowing the party to cast away social conservatism and embrace true universal conservatism, aka classical liberalism.

But by the way, I said nothing hateful/bigoted about your religion. I just pointed out how unhinged it is to consider his religion and holy-rolling stance on Israel and good enough reasons par se to support him. If you had actual points in support of "the Governor", please bring them out.

As far as what you just said, education... budget... that is deluded. Read up on him some more. He raised taxes more than Bill Clinton did. Balanced budget is not a virtue in by itself: if you tax people more to cover for spending more, what's so great about that!

725 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:41:09pm

re: #723 Alibaba
I meant "Governor", hehe.

726 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:43:38pm

re: #710 Alibaba

You are manufacturing controversy where little or none exists. The overwhelming majority of the criticism posted here about Huckabee is about his policies and record, and not bigotry or christian bashing.

You do yourself no favors here by crying bigotry like a liberal.

727 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:44:23pm

re: #724 medaura18586

"your likes"? Also, very, very nice. It is obvious that you are a social liberal who probably supports abortion on demand. Speaking as a conservative Jew, you know nothing about me or my religious beliefs! Boy, did you give yourself away. And no, dear: you would not bring in "new voters" i.e., your LIBERAL FRIENDS because, like you, they are registered Democrats. By the way: do you support Obama or Clinton? Again, Huckabee left with a surplus. Since you are a registered Democrat you can vote in their primary!

728 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:46:53pm

re: #726 Slumbering Behemoth

"fundies"? Nope, I call it like I see it - your pals use that word, not me. What bigotry! And your other pal gave herself away with the word "liberal . . . Republicans". Oh, the Rudy Giuliani types who go to the gay pride parade with NAMBLA and support partial birth abortion? Why don't you just bring back Nelson Rockefeller?

729 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:48:32pm

re: #724 medaura18586
"classical liberalism" - oh, you mean gay marriage and partial birth abortion? You belong in the Democratic party where that is embraced! yes, you will bring in new people!

730 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:51:53pm

re: #729 Alibaba

Do you even know wtf Classical Liberalism is? It is the very foundation of modern conservatism.

Cry bigot. Ad hominem. Cherry pick.

You're a fucking moby, leave already!

731 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 2:53:44pm

re: #727 Alibaba

I do support abortion on demand. Boo hoo... Boy, did I give myself away?

I am Jewish myself, so what? I don't live in Israel, and while I care deeply for her interests a) my principal loyalty is to the US, my soon-to-be home country (that's right, I am a foreigner and can't even vote, and am not registered under any party), and only secondarily to Israel b) I would have to be willfully blind to see Huckabee as the best ambassador to Israel's interests.

YOU gave yourself away. Just because you are Jewish, all that matters is a candidate's supposed stance on Israel? Talk about selfish! What about the rest of the country that's not Jewish and might not care for Israel!? Shamefully, Jewish people talking so one-dimensionally fuel conspiracies of how American Jews are only loyal to Israel.

LIBERAL FRIENDS? Who do you think you are? You think you know me? So arrogant! The very fact of you supporting Huckabee makes you more Leftist than I have been even in my most confused days as a teenage.

And guess what, the author of this site seems to side with me on this... Huckabee is a Leftist, yes, taint these words until you hope they mean nothing, but facts speak for themselves

I am done talking to you now

732 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 3:38:12pm

Carolmill
Dennis Miller, hands down, is the best choice.
Glenn Beck is quite funny sometimes and pretty entertaining....AND right on the money most of the time. He's been doing quite well on CNN....so someone must be listening!

733 Alibaba  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 4:36:21pm

re: #731 medaura18586
Shame, shame, lady. You probably are a real leftist and will vote in the Democratic primary. You support abortion on demand? You have no humanity and you, lady, gave yourself away. P.S. I don't believe you are really Jewish. You sound like a lib troll.

734 Naso Tang  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 4:46:31pm

re: #688 LanceKates

re: #684 Honorary Yooper

Which is why I take offense at the canard that 'evangelicals' vote for huckabee because they're too bigoted to vote for a mormon.

"Evangelicals" vote, I think, for Huckabee because they too would like more theocracy (like Huckabee said, change the constitution, presumably to allow stoning of adulterers. What did he mean?), not to mention his utter disregard for science. There is nothing bigoted about voting against that, nor about voting against a Mormon who is more interested in supporting the faith of his "fathers" than thinking about how ridiculous it is. Would you vote for a Scientologist who believes in a (bad) science fiction book as a bible?

735 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 4:54:08pm

re: #733 Alibaba

You sound like a douche...

736 Naso Tang  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:03:05pm

re: #732 madmama

Carolmill
Dennis Miller, hands down, is the best choice.
Glenn Beck is quite funny sometimes and pretty entertaining....AND right on the money most of the time. He's been doing quite well on CNN....so someone must be listening!

Yeah, and Larry King has been doing quite well on CNN for some time too, psychic guests and all. Someone must be listening to him. Any fool can be right some of the time, but only fools think they are most of the time.

737 madmama  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:10:48pm

Naso Tang......
I wasn't talking to you.
You have no idea of what we are talking about so buzz off asshole!

738 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:19:40pm

re: #585 madmama

Sorry...I'm a neonatologist. No amount of rationalization takes away the fact that the infant is killed for the convenience of the pregnant woman and/or the sperm donor who helped with the conception.

Using your logic, no man should ever be required to pay child support for a child born out of wedlock...if it's solely the woman's choice and all...

You might have a leg to stand on if you could prove a single instance of a fetus EVER coming out of the womb as anything other than a human infant...but until then the entire foundation of the pro-abortion argument equates to the Nazi official medical position supporting the murder of the mentally retarded as "sub-human" and a drain on society's resources.

(...and that doesn't even touch on what the national socialist party doctors said about and did to the Jews.....)

739 Babydoc97  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:23:10pm

re: #599 madmama
Simple solution...

You commit a crime using a firearm, and are found guilty, and you are immediately executed.

Works for me....simple, decisive, and effective.

740 Bill Dalasio  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:24:19pm

You know, I dread saying this, but there is actually a tiny part of me that would like to see Gov. Huckabee the nominee. Perhaps then, after the Republican Party loses in a way that would make Walter Mondale's 1984 run look like photo finish, certain evangelicals and religious conservatives would wake the hell up. For the last three to four years, they've been strutting about, claiming that the Reagan coalition has outlived its usefulness, that conservatism needed to go "beyond" Reaganism, that the future of the movement belonged with "crunchy" cons. All of which seem little more than a veiled reference to conservatism only on religious and social issues. Frankly, I can't help but wonder if they've forgotten the reference to pride coming before the fall. Think about it, only a few months ago they were threatening the party that they would vote third party against Giuliani, because he was too liberal. Now they have the unmitigated gall to try to palm off a candidate with a record of releasing murderer/rapists, who considers U.S. policy on the War on Terror an "arrogant bunker mentality", who's called the Consitution "a living breathing document", who's skyrocketed taxes and spending, and who is running a campaign based on class warfare and identity politics. Perhaps its time theyh learned how well that plays outside their own little circles.

741 Naso Tang  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:30:41pm

re: #737 madmama

Naso Tang......
I wasn't talking to you.
You have no idea of what we are talking about so buzz off asshole!

You are talking to the world, but I appreciate you labelling yourself so concisely and promptly so that the viewers know your state of mind.

742 Naso Tang  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:39:38pm

re: #599 madmama

Regarding 'gang bangers'.....my solution would be to round them up (the police know who they are ....most of them have extensive rap sheets), search their homes and take their guns away. Then I'd throw them in jail FOREVER!
Our legal system is geared to protect these mutants.
A law abiding citizen shouldn't have anything to worry about.
But of course, you'd have every civil liberties groups up in arms.
I'm all for the 2nd ammendment.....but someone needs some good ideas as to how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, short of my suggestion here.

Since you so ineloquently state you don't like comments that you don't like, even though there was nothing particularly personal in my earlier one that caused you to spray spittle, I thought I'd ask if you would like to reread your drivel above?

Do you have any idea how much you sound like a striking scriptwriter for a B movie?

743 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:49:20pm

re: #740 Bill Dalasio

If the stakes were lower, I'd probably agree with you. In a post-9/11 world though, with Osama bin Hidin' and his (dwindling) band of merry men still capable of mayhem, it's just too risky.

Was it Huckabee himself, or one of his supporters who suggested the Constitution ought to be brought into line with the Bible?

744 Naso Tang  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:54:11pm

"Was it Huckabee himself, or one of his supporters who suggested the Constitution ought to be brought into line with the Bible?"

I do believe it was the man himself, but what is more interesting is how the MSM can't have to courage to ask exactly what that means.

745 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:54:26pm

re: #740 Bill Dalasio

You know, I dread saying this, but there is actually a tiny part of me that would like to see Gov. Huckabee the nominee. Perhaps then, after the Republican Party loses in a way that would make Walter Mondale's 1984 run look like photo finish, certain evangelicals and religious conservatives would wake the hell up. For the last three to four years, they've been strutting about, claiming that the Reagan coalition has outlived its usefulness, that conservatism needed to go "beyond" Reaganism, that the future of the movement belonged with "crunchy" cons. All of which seem little more than a veiled reference to conservatism only on religious and social issues. Frankly, I can't help but wonder if they've forgotten the reference to pride coming before the fall. Think about it, only a few months ago they were threatening the party that they would vote third party against Giuliani, because he was too liberal. Now they have the unmitigated gall to try to palm off a candidate with a record of releasing murderer/rapists, who considers U.S. policy on the War on Terror an "arrogant bunker mentality", who's called the Consitution "a living breathing document", who's skyrocketed taxes and spending, and who is running a campaign based on class warfare and identity politics. Perhaps its time theyh learned how well that plays outside their own little circles.

DITTO.

I don't think certain evangelicals and social conservatives would wake up though. The best that could happen would be for the classical liberal base to wake up and realize that the social cons are just a liability, that they have hijacked the party, and kick them out.

746 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 5:56:12pm

re: #744 Naso Tang

"Was it Huckabee himself, or one of his supporters who suggested the Constitution ought to be brought into line with the Bible?"

I do believe it was the man himself, but what is more interesting is how the MSM can't have to courage to ask exactly what that means.

The MSM won't go there, they are sucking up to Huckabee. They want him to win the nomination, because that would be a god-sent gift to the Democrats. They are rooting for him for a reason. He is the most unelectable GOP candidate.

747 Bill Dalasio  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 6:13:41pm

re: #743 Spiny Norman

I know. That's why I was careful to note that only a tiny part of me felt that way.

748 Jimmah  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 6:51:58pm

Slumbering Behemoth - I was inspired by your Huckabee de-motivational poster campaign link in spinoffs, to produce this:

[Link: i238.photobucket.com...]

749 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 6:55:22pm

re: #748 Jimmah

LOL!
oh dear!

I hadn't even realized he looks like Spacey! wow!

750 Jimmah  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:03:51pm

re: #749 medaura18586

Heh. First time I saw him on tv, I thought it WAS Kevin Spacey. Btw the new avatar of blasphemy we spoke of last time is up.

751 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:07:43pm

re: #748 Jimmah

Awesome! He does look a little Spacey. And as you note, he also looks a little like that Kevin actor as well.

I have yet to come up with a decent one myself. I'm trying for something with a Carter/Faith Pandering flavor. Oh, my muse just dropped in. How about this:

PRESIDENTIAL PARDONS
Because 1,033 free criminals just isn't enough.

BTW, how did you know I was lurking on a dead thread?

/you're creeping me out, Jimmah

752 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:08:15pm

re: #750 Jimmah

I saw it! It's funny, though what I don't like is that it gives "the Prophet" a humanizing angle, like he really cried for forgiveness/redemption. He always thought he was morally perfect and fully righteous in what he did to that little girl.

You should make a whole website of these crazy well-executed ideas!

753 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:09:43pm

re: #751 Slumbering Behemoth

Da thread is never dead 'til I SAY it is!

754 Jimmah  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:14:46pm

re: #751 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh. Good one.

BTW, how did you know I was lurking on a dead thread?

/you're creeping me out, Jimmah

I sensed a presence...lol

755 Jimmah  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:20:47pm

re: #752 medaura18586

Well, narcissistic psychopaths are human beings too...lol. I always suspected that this was basically a case of Mohammed whacking off in the toilet and being consumed with post-orgasmic guilt.

You should make a whole website of these crazy well-executed ideas!

Thanks :) The hadiths are certainly a comedy goldmine - I think I'll make it a little side-hobby, see what I have in a few weeks/months or whatever.

756 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:27:09pm

re: #753 medaura18586
What happened to the Alibaba troll?

Crying bigotry while being a bigot. Ad Hominem. Cherry picking. Strawman building. Mouth stuffing. I guess these qualities/debate tactics are not just for leftists anymore. No, wait, they are.

That one implying Rudy supporters and/or homosexuals are akin to NAMBLA sort of ruins Ali's facade, don't you think?

re: #754 Jimmah

I sensed a presence...lol

That's your way of telling me I need to bath, isn't it?

757 Jimmah  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:47:41pm

re: #756 Slumbering Behemoth

What happened to the Alibaba troll?

I think he ran out of mouth-foam. What an arsehole.

That's your way of telling me I need to bath, isn't it?

lol. No, just to reassure, I'm not smellepathic.

758 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 7:54:26pm

re: #756 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't know just what to make of some people, who sound like they just talk for the sake of making hot air. Like, wtf, did s/he think anyone would fall for that crap, or anyone's minds were going to be changed? The quasi-rational thing to assume might be that s/he was a counter-moby, talking out of his/her ass to make "fundies" sound like idiots... because s/he certainly wasn't doing any favors to his/her alleged cause.

But then again, I often look to make too much sense out of people.

Don't even know if s/he was an actual self-conscious troll. Trolls can be trolls without trying. Sadly, I am afraid a lot of social conservatives just think along such stupid one-dimensional distorted lines. I mean, look at the numbers for Huckabee. He's got so many people fooled, it just goes to show that many GoPers are fools.

Sighs... sad state of affairs. Did you see this btw? [Link: sayanythingblog.com...]

759 medaura18586  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:01:12pm

re: #756 Slumbering Behemoth

BTW, Rudy is the only man who can possibly save the GoP at this point, but his chances are grim. There will be a fall from grace, and the Republicans sound like they deserve it at this point. The defeat in congressional elections wasn't enough I guess...

760 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 8:18:27pm

re: #757 Jimmah

I'm not smellepathic.

I have a proud, sexy, roman nose and smell many things that normally elude detection. Still, it's not quite large enough to make me smellepathic. I am SO using that term in the future, thanks Jimmah.

re: #758 medaura18586

No I hadn't seen that link, but thanks for it. I'm not sure what to make of it. I also haven't listened to talk radio for ages, I find what the Lizards have to say about this or that far more compelling and intelligent.

re: #759 medaura18586

Not sure that I'd call Rudy the savior of the GOP, but he is a damn sight better than some of the other offerings, especially Huckabee.

I would have liked to see Hunter go further, but the MSM has been too busy pimping Huckabee* to even give a second of time to Hunter.

*If that doesn't tell you something, than you must suffer from an incurable case of rectal/cranial inversion.

761 ConsLawStudent  Mon, Jan 21, 2008 10:58:37pm

and he's out of dough, so he's cutting salaries, asking people to work for free and cutting jobs.

So he IS the guy who lays people off. How ironic and simultaneously illustrative of what his presidency would have been like.

762 joseph k.  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 12:15:24am

Chuck Norris will NOT be pleased. I can hear his chi sizzling from here. Non-Huck supporters watch yourselves - the eyes of a Ranger are upon you!

763 Alibaba  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 5:47:09am

re: #759 medaura18586

Oh, right: we really ,really need the three time married Rooty who is a gun grabber and who supports partial birth abortion and made NYC a sanctuary city and, whether he knows it or not, is excommunicated. Yeah, right, we need Rooty!

764 Alibaba  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 5:48:14am

re: #756 Slumbering Behemoth

If you want to see a liberal troll, look in the mirror! You sound like Matt Damon. You are a registered Demoncrat, aren't you?

765 Alibaba  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 5:49:05am

re: #759 medaura18586

How much does Rootty pay you for this swill? HeE is running out of money, isn't he? Maybe you do it for free?

766 Alibaba  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 5:55:49am

re: #735 medaura18586

Chuck Norris will wash yiour mouth out with soap and water.

767 Alibaba  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 5:58:49am

re: #758 medaura18586

Oh, yes, dear: you who aer not even a citizen are so smart and everybody else is so dumb!

768 Alibaba  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 6:10:17am

re: #767 Alibaba

Have you had four abortions or five, since you support that so much? You and Rooty are a perfect fit!

769 Alibaba  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 10:57:19am

re: #758 medaura18586

re: #758 medaura18586

re: #756 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't know just what to make of some people, who sound like they just talk for the sake of making hot air. Like, wtf, did s/he think anyone would fall for that crap, or anyone's minds were going to be changed? The quasi-rational thing to assume might be that s/he was a counter-moby, talking out of his/her ass to make "fundies" sound like idiots... because s/he certainly wasn't doing any favors to his/her alleged cause.

But then again, I often look to make too much sense out of people.

Don't even know if s/he was an actual self-conscious troll. Trolls can be trolls without trying. Sadly, I am afraid a lot of social conservatives just think along such stupid one-dimensional distorted lines. I mean, look at the numbers for Huckabee. He's got so many people fooled, it just goes to show that many GoPers are fools.

Sighs... sad state of affairs. Did you see this btw? [Link: sayanythingblog.com...]


Why aren't you at the Planned Parenthood clinic with your pals? We know you love Rooty, abortion on demand, and are arguably female. You are also not a citizen.

770 Alibaba  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 10:58:28am

re: #761 ConsLawStudent

Did Mitt pay you to say that? When is Fred dropping out, by the way? oh, boohoohoo.

771 Bill Dalasio  Tue, Jan 22, 2008 11:16:52am

Hairy palmed freaks like Alibaba are about as solid an advertisement for voting aginst Huckabee as one could ask for. Thanks, Ali, you've helped the rest of us tremendously.


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