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Bush Vetos Waterboarding Bill

Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 9:02:38 am PST

President Bush has vetoed the Democrat-sponsored bill that would ban the CIA from using “harsh interrogation techniques” on terrorists like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed: Bush Announces Veto of Waterboarding Ban.

Always keep in mind, when the media and the left are hyperventilating over waterboarding, that the technique has been used on exactly three terrorists, all of whom had vitally important information on attacks in the planning stages.

President Bush said Saturday that he has vetoed legislation meant to ban the CIA from using waterboarding and other harsh interrogation tactics because it “would take away one of the most valuable tools on the war on terror.”

In his weekly radio address, Bush said, “This is no time for Congress to abandon practices that have a proven track record of keeping America safe.”

Congress approved an intelligence authorization bill that contains the waterboarding provision on slim majorities, far short of the two-thirds needed to override a presidential veto.

Bush’s long-expected veto reignites the Washington debate over the proper limits of the U.S. interrogation policies and whether the CIA has engaged in torture by subjecting prisoners to severe tactics, including waterboarding, a type of simulated drowning.

The president argued Saturday that the agency needs to use tougher methods than the U.S. military to wrest information from terrorism suspects.

“Limiting the CIA’s interrogation methods to those in the Army Field Manual would be dangerous because the manual is publicly available and easily accessible on the Internet. . . . If we were to shut down this program and restrict the CIA to methods in the Field Manual, we could lose vital information from senior al-Qaeda terrorists, and that could cost American lives,” Bush said.

And that argument will be dismissed by the Democrats and their leftist fellow travelers, because political gain is vastly more important to them than the security of the country.

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116 comments

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1 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:05:28am

Thank goodness.

2 FrogMarch  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:05:28am

Leftist hearts bleed for poor terrorists. Oh wait - there is no terrorist threat - only the threat of Dick Cheney. You know - he had so much to gain. OIL!

3 Spiny Norman  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:06:13am

Of course, successful Islamic terrorist attacks validate the Left's "blowback" masturbation fantasies.

4 caliredst8r  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:06:25am

Surf's up!

5 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:07:01am
And that argument will be dismissed by the Democrats and their leftist fellow travelers, because political gain is vastly more important to them than the security of the country.

Perfect summation, Charles.

6 JammieWearingFool  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:07:38am

Tragically ironic that the man who left Mary Jo Kopechne to die a slow, agonizing death is the one most strenuously objecting.

7 jcm  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:08:05am

Line forms here take a number

1 Pelousy
2 Murthass

Your boards are ready.

8 Wisenheimer  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:08:40am

It's only fair that waterboarding should be safe, legal, and rare.

9 snowcrash  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:08:56am

Anyone else with computer problems? Can't pull up new comments or get avatars to show. Using IE7. No buttons with link, bold etc. either

10 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:09:13am

There may be a way for Rosie to redeem herself as a stripper.

Or simply as an intrrogator.

11 Sol Roth  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:09:46am
And that argument will be dismissed by the Democrats and their leftist fellow travelers, because political gain is vastly more important to them than the security of the country.

Damn, that's true.

12 Wisenheimer  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:10:02am

re: #9 snowcrash

Anyone else with computer problems? Can't pull up new comments or get avatars to show. Using IE7. No buttons with link, bold etc. either

Yup. I thought it was just Comcast's weekend slowdown.

13 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:10:09am

re: #8 Wisenheimer

It's only fair that waterboarding should be safe, legal, and rare.

BRILLIANT

14 Caliredst8r  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:10:27am

re: #9 snowcrash

Avatar's aren't showing on mine, everything else is fine

15 winston06  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:10:31am

Great

16 zmdavid  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:10:44am

re: #9 snowcrash
Yes. It seems to work, but very slowly.

17 Caliredst8r  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:10:47am

Oops, now they're showing!

18 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:10:48am

pimf: interrogator... interrorgator... something.

19 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:11:29am

re: #9 snowcrash

Anyone else with computer problems? Can't pull up new comments or get avatars to show. Using IE7. No buttons with link, bold etc. either

Please excuse my ignorance, but how do I know which IE I have?

20 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:13:03am

re: #19 goddessoftheclassroom

Please excuse my ignorance, but how do I know which IE I have?


At top, click on Help, then About.

21 FrogMarch  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:13:06am

re: #6 JammieWearingFool

Tragically ironic that the man who left Mary Jo Kopechne to die a slow, agonizing death is the one most strenuously objecting.

The drunk wimp couldn't save her from 2 feet of water.
We can count on old Teddy to save the poor terrorists.

22 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:13:57am

re: #20 abolitionist

Thank! I'm running 7. Slow, but working.

Should I upgrade to 8?

23 1SG(ret)  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:14:24am

re: #4 caliredst8r

Don't know if I've asked you this before. Which BDE and time frame in 3AD?
I spent total of 9 yrs in 3AD and was with 2d BDE in Gulf war.

Top

24 jcm  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:14:54am

re: #22 goddessoftheclassroom

re: #20 abolitionist

Thank! I'm running 7. Slow, but working.

Should I upgrade to 8?

G-d NO!

25 BODYGUARDEAGLE  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:15:25am

Firefox, slow but everything else showing and reloading ...but slow.

26 bunker buster  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:15:45am

re: #19 goddessoftheclassroom

re: #9 snowcrash


Please excuse my ignorance, but how do I know which IE I have?

Open Internet Explorer, click the "help" tab on the toolbar, then click "About Internet Explorer" on the drop-down window.

27 Diamond Bullet  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:15:51am

re: #6 JammieWearingFool

Tragically ironic that the man who left Mary Jo Kopechne to die a slow, agonizing death is the one most strenuously objecting.

Precisely.

"Simulated drowning" of terrorist masterminds: reprehensible.

Actual drowning of innocent female staffers: "whoops".

Ladies and Gentlemen, your 2008 Democratic National Party!

28 jcm  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:16:17am

re: #22 goddessoftheclassroom

re: #20 abolitionist

Thank! I'm running 7. Slow, but working.

Should I upgrade to 8?

If you do anything, go get Firefox.

29 debutaunt  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:16:34am

re: #18 abolitionist

pimf: interrogator... interrorgator... something.

Big Webster is ripping us off.

30 bunker buster  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:16:35am

Looks like abolitionist beat me to it.

31 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:16:51am

re: #22 goddessoftheclassroom

IE8: A mess

/no

32 RememberSekhmet?  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:17:03am

For all their objection to it, the lefties sure love to waterboard each other.

33 FrogMarch  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:17:03am

You know - the 9/11 terrorists really did win. Not only did they kill 3000 innocent Americans on American soil - they got the Arab world to believe the Jews did it - and the western left-wing world to believe 9/11 was an inside job.

and now the lefts collective hearts bleed in unison for three water-boarded victims. oh poor holy victims. It's the same reason the left adore the eternal victim death-cult/death loving Palestinians.

34 1SG(ret)  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:17:24am

re: #22 goddessoftheclassroom


Godess, I went back to IE6 from 7 yesterday and all was well. Today not so good. It may not be on our end!
Top

35 blue_like_jazz  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:17:37am

i'm running a mac on firefox and it took a Loooooooooooooong time to load up .

36 mikevp  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:17:41am

Bush made one very serious mistake with this whole thing --

What he should have done was just lie like Sam Donaldson's cheap rug about what was done to make those three Al Queda leaders talk. Deny it.

Perfect honesty is not necessarily the best war-fighting strategy.

After all, those three were probably the ones who wrote that AQ operations manual which gave us perfect plausible deniability -- "Don't worry if you're captured, the infidels won't do anything very bad to you. But when they release you, run straight to the infidel's own news media and tell lurid tales of torture. They'll believe and print every word."

Which has, alas, proven to be absolutely true.

37 bunker buster  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:17:50am

By the by, it's nice to see Pres. Bush showing some stones on this issue.

38 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:18:22am
"We get so much dependable information from just sitting down and having a conversation and treating them like human beings in a businesslike manner," Buzby told reporters in a conference call Thursday.

Sure you do.

39 jcm  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:18:40am

Slow in both Safari and Firefox.

40 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:19:02am

re: #4 caliredst8r

Surf's up!

HAHAHAHAHA

On another note- Could this morning's "slowness" be related to Charles' "tweaking" of quote embeds last night?
/HMMMM?

41 blue_like_jazz  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:19:15am

And if there's another attack (God forbid!) before Bush vacates the Oval Office, they'll still blame him for it.

42 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:19:59am

re: #27 Diamond Bullet

What's the senior sentaor from the Ku Klux Klan West Virginia been up to lately?

43 alegrias  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:20:10am

That's My President! God Bless President Bush, doing the work (to defend our country) that democrats won't do.

President Bush takes a page from John McCain's veto of NYT whining leftist reporting.

Thank you Charles for reporting this, as I wanted you to!

44 TimeQuake  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:20:29am

Hard to believe, on dial-up with Firefox and having no problems.

45 1SG(ret)  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:23:12am

Ok, can't take anymore, gone for now. Good day to all.

46 GATORBAIT  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:23:44am

re: #6 JammieWearingFool

Tragically ironic that the man who left Mary Jo Kopechne to die a slow, agonizing death is the one most strenuously objecting.

Could you mean the father of her unborn child?

47 bunker buster  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:24:27am

re: #45 1SG(ret)
You too.

48 Charles  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:25:06am

Yes, things are running a bit slow; Apache seems to be hiccuping for some reason. We're working on it.

49 optimistic  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:26:01am

I thought war was all about belittling, humiliating and killing the enemy until the enemy didn't want to be belittled, humiliated and killed any more.

That's what our enemies have always tried to do to us. They'll waterboard the last drip of snot out our people, that's for sure.

Why are we worrying about our military procedures? More importantly, why is our military actually worrying about what we think.

We pay taxes so they can belittle, humiliate and kill the enemy until the enemy doesn't want to be belittled, humiliated and killed anymore.

Let the military do its job.

50 alegrias  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:28:36am

re: #49 optimistic

I thought war was all about belittling, humiliating and killing the enemy until the enemy didn't want to be belittled, humiliated and killed any more.

That's what our enemies have always tried to do to us. They'll waterboard the last drip of snot out our people, that's for sure.

Why are we worrying about our military procedures? More importantly, why is our military actually worrying about what we think.

We pay taxes so they can belittle, humiliate and kill the enemy until the enemy doesn't want to be belittled, humiliated and killed anymore.

Let the military do its job.

* * *
Mostly, we want to extinguish the enemy's WILL to fight.

51 trailortrash  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:29:11am

go George :)

52 victor_yugo  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:29:29am

This wasn't a waterboarding bill. It was an anti-waterboarding bill. Charles' headline should read, "Bush Vetoes Anti-Waterboarding Bill".

And that misogynistic lush Kennedy should go piss up a rope.

53 doriangrey  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:32:19am
And that argument will be dismissed by the Democrats and their leftist fellow travelers, because political gain is vastly more important to them than the security of the country.

So, what exactly are you suggesting Charles? Surely not that the Democrats/liberals/socialists place the security health and welfare of the nation above their own ambitions. A man as intelligent as you are must recognize that the ambitions of the Democrats/liberals/socialists are the security health and welfare of the nation.

Without their tireless self sacrifices and eternal vigilance America could never become the socialist/communist workers hellhole utopia that it is becoming. Just look at the glorious achievements they have made in Kalifornia, communist indoctrination is now public school policy. How could you possibly think that their goals are anything but noble and worthwhile?

Clearly nothing could be more noble than disarming the population, stripping them of their rights, and replacing those rights with conditional privileges granted by a malodorous beneficent dictatorship communist/socialist government.

54 cybermonk  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:32:23am

you will notice that a "volunteer" is being waterboarded outside the white house, how about we take a volunteer and give him the "Hussein" method of torture, tongue slicing, acid drips, finger chops, real torture. I think he would prefer the waterboarding.

55 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:32:40am

re: #49 optimistic

We pay taxes so they can belittle, humiliate and kill the enemy until the enemy doesn't want to be belittled, humiliated and killed anymore.

Don't you meant "taunted"?

56 alegrias  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:32:54am

As McCain says, WE will not surrender, they will.

And to those wussy countries still handwringing over whether the US committed "torture" in "CIA prisons" overseas, STUFF it, cowards, feel free to meet your jihadist overlords but not us, NOT ON OUR WATCH.

57 victor_yugo  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:33:55am

re: #50 alegrias

re: #49 optimistic

* * *
Mostly, we want to extinguish the enemy's WILL to fight.

Yes, that's what optimistic said.

-------------------------

re: #49 optimistic

Why are we worrying about our military procedures? More importantly, why is our military actually worrying about what we think.

Military authority in the US is not equal to civilian authority, like it might be in Pakistan or some South American tinpot dictatorship. The military is clearly subject to civilian authority.

58 David Simon  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:34:01am

Way to go Washington Post; another misleading headline. "Torture" is already banned by the Military Commissions Act (under the McCain amendment). This bill goes way beyond banning waterboarding, and that's why Bush vetoed it (and why even McCain voted against it).

59 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:34:23am

re: #33 FrogMarch

You know - the 9/11 terrorists really did win. Not only did they kill 3000 innocent Americans on American soil - they got the Arab world to believe the Jews did it - and the western left-wing world to believe 9/11 was an inside job.

and now the lefts collective hearts bleed in unison for three water-boarded victims. oh poor holy victims. It's the same reason the left adore the eternal victim death-cult/death loving Palestinians.

I always thought it a little strange that there were pro-US candlelight demonstrations in the streets of Tehran (pics used to be in the gallery at faithfreedom.org) and a Saudi prince came out with a public statement blaming 911 on the Jews --both on the same day, 18 september 2001 --a week after the events.

It's almost as if the propaganda mills worldwide were primed, but for 18 september. Incidentally, in late sep 2001, I attended a health-related seminar, and when the lecturer spoke of the recent 911 attacks, he mentioned THAT date.

60 doriangrey  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:34:24am

re: #53 doriangrey

So, what exactly are you suggesting Charles? Surely not that the Democrats/liberals/socialists place the security health and welfare of the nation above their own ambitions. A man as intelligent as you are must recognize that the ambitions of the Democrats/liberals/socialists are the security health and welfare of the nation.

Without their tireless self sacrifices and eternal vigilance America could never become the socialist/communist workers hellhole utopia that it is becoming. Just look at the glorious achievements they have made in Kalifornia, communist indoctrination is now public school policy. How could you possibly think that their goals are anything but noble and worthwhile?

Clearly nothing could be more noble than disarming the population, stripping them of their rights, and replacing those rights with conditional privileges granted by a malodorous beneficent dictatorship communist/socialist government.

Opp's, forgot to add the end sarcasm tag.... /S

61 NoSubmission  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:34:48am

On my way to the Pro-Troops Rally at the Military Recruitment Station in Times Square. Be back later with pics!

62 rwmofo  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:35:07am

Charles said, "Always keep in mind, when the media and the left are hyperventilating over waterboarding, " anything then you know that the right has proposed a good idea. If Ted Kennedy and/or the NY Times are mad, it's a good idea.

See:

a) Cutting taxes

b) 2nd Amendment

c) Privatization of ANYTHING.

There's a long list.

63 nyc redneck  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:36:37am

re: #61 NoSubmission

On my way to the Pro-Troops Rally at the Military Recruitment Station in Times Square. Be back later with pics!

i'll see you there.

64 NoSubmission  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:38:44am

re: #63 nyc redneck
Great! We have a tent so we'll be safe from the rain.

65 psaturn  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:39:11am
And that argument will be dismissed by the Democrats and their leftist fellow travelers, because political gain is vastly more important to them than the security of the country.

Charles

The thing is, it would NOT be a political gain if people were aware of the context and the facts like Charles pointed out. I think the failure of the Bush presidency is a failure to communicate...either that or the news media are not reporting accurately what he said...or twisting what he said to the detriment of the country.

66 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:39:33am

Okay, I've installed Firefox, but it's "circling" on LGF as if it's still trying to load.

67 missouri boy  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:39:40am

I am glad to see Bush finally found his "veto pen". Too bad, it is nearly 8 years late. imho

68 psaturn  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:40:27am

re: #35 blue_like_jazz

i'm running a mac on firefox and it took a Loooooooooooooong time to load up .

I am on one too and it took slightly longer...but not overly long.

69 BODYGUARDEAGLE  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:40:42am

re: #28 jcm

re: #22 goddessoftheclassroom

If you do anything, go get Firefox.

I agree, my Younger bro, (who works for Advanced Missile Design and Research at Redstone Arsenal/Nasa,Who also helped build the 5th largest Super computer in the world...and built my little computer) heh heh... [proud of him] got me to start using Mozilla Firefox. He said you wont believe the difference and the security features are much better...He was right!...

70 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:40:47am

re: #61 NoSubmission

On my way to the Pro-Troops Rally at the Military Recruitment Station in Times Square. Be back later with pics!

Keep up the good work!

71 VegasRick  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:41:37am

Morning all! Are things running a bit odd around here this AM or is it me?

72 nyc redneck  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:42:24am

re: #64 NoSubmission

re: #63 nyc redneck
Great! We have a tent so we'll be safe from the rain.

that's good news. i have such a head cold this morning i was almost afraid to go out in the rain. the tent sounds wonderful. tho i'd be coming w/ out it.

73 BODYGUARDEAGLE  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:43:39am

re: #61 NoSubmission

On my way to the Pro-Troops Rally at the Military Recruitment Station in Times Square. Be back later with pics!

Thank You for being where most of us would like to, but are either too far away or just unable to. God Bless America and our Friends like you.

ALWAYS BODY GUARD THE EAGLE...

74 BulgarWheat  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:43:59am

#71 VegasRick

Yep, things are running as slowly as it took Dubyah to start workin' that veto pen. Nodding and acknowledging missouriboy.....

75 David Simon  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:44:25am

re: #52 victor_yugo

This wasn't a waterboarding bill. It was an anti-waterboarding bill.

No, it was a bill to restrict our intelligence agencies ability to do their jobs by restricting their interrogation methods to those contained in the Army Field Manual. Huge difference.

76 missouri boy  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:47:08am

You think things are slow..try doing this on dail-up.

77 David Simon  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:48:10am

re: #67 missouri boy

I am glad to see Bush finally found his "veto pen". Too bad, it is nearly 8 years late. imho

Fours years too late. He didn't veto shit (except the stem cell funding IIRC) when the Republicans were in charge. He found his veto pen after the Democrats took control of Congress. Disgusting.

78 LindaMarie  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:48:12am

There is a problem with DNS - we are seeing here in Kabul. We spent too much of the afternoon reconfiguring VLAN and DNS. Some kind of Inernet attack? I don't know.

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean someone is not out to get you"
Good to know it is not just "us".
Charles it is not just in the US

79 BODYGUARDEAGLE  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:49:48am

It's a conspiracy!...All the Axis of Evil countries along with all the America haters and Lovers of Islam have come together to 'HIT' LGF and the internet to stop the flow of Truthful info. coming out about them now that Osama Obama is being vetted by the MSM....

80 bunker buster  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:51:37am

re: #55 MandyManners

re: #49 optimistic


Don't you meant "taunted"?

So, you thought you would outwit us French folk with your silly, knee-bent running-about behavior!

81 missouri boy  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 9:53:52am

re: #77 David Simon

re: #67 missouri boy


Fours years too late. He didn't veto shit (except the stem cell funding IIRC) when the Republicans were in charge. He found his veto pen after the Democrats took control of Congress. Disgusting.

What's really disgusting are the "JOKES" we have as presidential nominees. We are doomed..imho

82 Spiny Norman  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 10:00:37am

re: #80 bunker buster

re: #55 MandyManners

So, you thought you would outwit us French folk with your silly, knee-bent running-about advancing behavior!

Fixed that for ya, you son of a window dresser.

Fetchez la vache!

83 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 10:01:40am

re: #66 goddessoftheclassroom

Okay, I've installed Firefox, but it's "circling" on LGF as if it's still trying to load.

You may need to do a bit of tweeking. Popups are disabled by default. Under Tools/Options/Content you can leave a checkmark at Block Popups, but you should click Exceptions and then type littlegreenfootballs.com into the Address of web site field, then click Allow.

Also, you probably need to allow cookies. In the past, I've tried restricting cookies globally, but with an Allow exception for littlegreenfootballs.com. That didn't always work out, and I'd have to go with Allow cookies (globally), at least temporarily.

If you get NoScript (which defaults to blocking Java & JavaScript) be sure to configure Firefox to Allow both (so that NoScript governs permissions), and tweek NoScript to Allow scripting for LGF (and other trusted sites).

Without NoScript, be sure to make an Exception to Allow JavaScript for littlegreenfootballs.com

/I've probably missed something.

84 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 10:11:34am

And the hamsters have been taking breaks this AM. See next thread.

85 optimistic  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 10:12:07am

re: #57 victor_yugo

Yes you are right, they are us, they work for us, under our guidance. We should and do care about what the military does. Poorly worded remark about "why should they care..."

But something isn't right about this currently level of interaction with the military and our input into it's affairs. I can't put my finger on it. War is nasty, ugly. Heck, we kill people. And here are a bunch of citizens, all squirmy about industrial grade torture? That's just one of a lot of very disturbing things that occur in the prosecution of war.

I wish none of it happened: torture, killing, war. But human nature....

86 David Simon  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 10:20:06am

Speaking of misleading headlines, here's Times take on the Yeshiva massacre:

Israel's Blood Feud Stirs Again

[Link: www.time.com...]

Note who the reporter is: Tim "Haditha Marines are murderers" McJerk.

87 pastorlizard  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 10:43:29am

Actually, this bill was co-sponsored by the head RINO himself: Chuck Hagel. His name's on it. So while it's technically not true that it is only a "Democrat-sponsored" bill, it's true in spirit. Hagel was one of the bill's biggest pushers. He's a sad excuse for a Nebraskan (my home state).

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Peace out,
pastorlizard

88 cygnus  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 11:03:16am

re: #63 nyc redneck

re: #61 NoSubmission


i'll see you there.

I'd love to be there but it's a wee bit too far. I live in WA state.

89 sojerofgod  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 11:04:38am

re: #65 psaturn

I agree totally that communication from this white house has been worse than lousy. Some blame a hostile media, but remember Reagan was able to overcome the media filters back when there was no alternative media. Bush I think never really cared to try. It has been a terrible, tragic error on his part. Our country has lacked direction and unity which would have drown-out and silenced the communist backed phony peaceniks from ANSWER and Code Pink. Nature abhors a vacuum, and Bush's silence created on they were all too happy to fill.

90 Brinks  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 11:05:52am

I don't know about this. As useful as "waterboarding" may be, it's a slippery slope (no pun intended). Overall, I think legalizing this kind of thing will do more harm than good.

91 mattm  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 11:14:32am

Anyone dare venture to cause to see the little moonbat heads explode?

92 David Simon  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 11:17:20am

re: #90 Brinks

I don't know about this. As useful as "waterboarding" may be, it's a slippery slope (no pun intended). Overall, I think legalizing this kind of thing will do more harm than good.

Do you think a bunch of grandstanding politicians telling our psyops professionals what types of coercive interrogation techniques they can and cannot use will do more good than harm?

By the way, the issue here isn't "legalizing" waterboarding.

93 anotherindyfilmguy  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 11:22:54am

Suicidal twits...

Any college professors here? How about starting a history course called "How the communist infiltrated the democratic party in an attempt to cause cultural suicide during the cold war"... and expose the suicidal lieberal b.s. for the suicidal pack of lies that ultimately do nothing but hurt humankind in general...

lieberals... that has a nice ring to it...

94 Oingo Boingo  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 11:58:46am

Whenj waterboarding is outlawed, only waterboarders will waterboard.

Or something.

95 Wookieelips  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:10:31pm

My Dad was waterboarded for training purposes.

No one cried and whined for him.

96 greenmiler  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:12:40pm

re: #6 JammieWearingFool

Tragically ironic that the man who left Mary Jo Kopechne to die a slow, agonizing death is the one most strenuously objecting.

He rejects it because it doesn't work, that poor girl never talked

97 greenmiler  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:14:52pm

I sure wish could have though

98 z9z99  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:37:32pm

Here's an idle thought:

If a person presents to his local emergency room after taking a bottle of Tylenol, he will have a tube shoved down his throat into his stomach and have a large volume of water pumped in and removed. Then a tube will be snaked down his nose and activated charcoal and N-acetylcysteine infused at intervals. If he resists, he may have his limbs restrained. If, in addition to Tylenol, he ingested other substances, he may need to have his muscles paralyzed and be placed on a mechanical ventilator, which will determine when and how much he breathes.

Each of these interventions is invasive; each is distressing, but each is accepted as necessary to save the life of the person in question. If such impositions are a natural and accepted consequence of suicidal behavior, when the actor's life is at stake, it is natural to wonder why interventions such as water boarding should not have the same acceptance when necessary to save the lives of innocent others, when such interventions are necessary. It is my understanding that waterboarding involves no lasting physical harm.

The essence of coersion is to impose a undesirable consequence for undesirable behavior. This is the principle behind all forms of regulatory enforcement, from the mundane, such as parking fines, to the more serious consequences imposed for sexual assault or murder. Coersion itself is not bad, it is inherent in a society of laws.
The guiding principle is that the method of coersion be appropriate to the situation. In the case of terror attacks, the measures involved obviously escalate according to the imminence of the threat.

If a policeman observes a terorist killing people, he would be excused for using deadly force to end the crisis. If the same policeman is pursuing the same terrorist who has not yet committed his act, but is fully prepared to, that same policeman is justified in jeopardizing the terrorists well-being by ramming his car and causing bodily injury. It the plot is in the formative stages, society is excused from rousting the would-be terrorist from his bed and threating him with prosecution, even at the risk of the terrorist's peace of mind.

Somewhere in this spectrum from shooting on sight to prosecutorial threat lies physical coersion such as waterboarding. The key here is necessity, and it is the nature of the threat and the conduct of the interrogatee who will determine this factor. Prosectively forbidding waterboarding is to declare that it is never necessary, a faithful assertion that reality may tragically prove mistaken.

99 And Can It Be  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:47:29pm

The good thing about keeping this law on the books, in my opinion, is that it gives the CIA the option to use waterboarding as an interrogation technique. I am not advocating that they use it necessarily.

We want the terrorists to fear falling into the hands of the U.S. because they don't know what interrogation methods they may have to endure.

Mark Bowden, author of Blackhawk Down, had an excellent article in the Atlantic Monthly several years ago called "The Dark Art of Interrogation." The one thing he pointed out is that the human mind can endure anything but uncertainty.

100 docremulac  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:49:24pm

Haven't you heard? There is no terrorist threat. As soon as we vote for Obama everybody will love us. Muslims only hate us because of Republican policies. They actually really love gays and are very pro women's rights. Murdering un-armed children in schools is simply a cultural thing with them, who are we to be judgmental of their cultural differences? Once we get rid of the Republicans who are messing everything up the world will be one big love shack.

Back to reality for a second, I would propose that the American administering the test would have to undergo water boarding himself to get certified. This would:

1- Remove the moral indignation, from sane people at least. We could say: "Our interrogators aren't doing anything they haven't been through themselves."

2- Probably help him to do it better knowing exactly what the person being interrogated was feeling at what point in the process.

We put our Marines through torture every day to toughen them up enough to go into battle and kick the snot out of these turds. Our guys could take it and come out laughing.

101 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:50:51pm
102 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:51:35pm
103 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 12:51:51pm
104 Gang of One  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 1:03:50pm

re: #6 JammieWearingFool

Tragically ironic that the man who left Mary Jo Kopechne to die a slow, agonizing death is the one most strenuously objecting.

Probably because knows how dangerous water can be in the hands of the wrong polit person.

105 Perf  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 1:07:33pm

Some call it torture. Some call it natural medicine:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

106 z9z99  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 1:09:36pm

re: #101 ploome hineni

It is also worth noting that not everyone who is treated for Tyleinl overdose according to protocol survives, and that not everyone who is not treated will die. Thus empiric therapy is used even when it is not know if it will be effective or necessary in a given case. Therapy is pursued simply because it increases the odds of survival.

Supposedly Khalid Sheik Muhammad gave up life-saving information with some damp encouragement. If this is true, since a single counter example disproves an absolute assertion, the argument that water boarding "does not work" requires additional support.

Here's an experiment: take an supporter of water boarding and see of you can get them to admit that waterboarding does not work by waterboarding them. See how the media report the results. Alternatively, take an opponent of waterboarding and see if you can coerce an admission of efficacy using the same technique. Either way, we'll have an answer.

107 freebird100  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 1:25:01pm

Please folks, it's not like we're going to be using waterboarding on any innocent civilians, like all those Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza.

108 Lumyrra  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 1:36:22pm

re: #49 optimistic

I thought war was all about belittling, humiliating and killing the enemy until the enemy didn't want to be belittled, humiliated and killed any more.

That's what our enemies have always tried to do to us. They'll waterboard the last drip of snot out our people, that's for sure.

To quote someone else on the subject (a complete stranger whose name I do not know):

Personally, I'd be shocked that any foreign, hostile nation would use waterboarding. You know why?

Only the U.S. is so tame. Waterboarding is completely non-injurious. When hostile nations torture our troops, you'll find a much, *much* bloodier mess. And they won't be rewarded with even relief for providing information. After they've reached the end of their usefulness, they'll be killed.

Because we *have* had soldiers captured, and tortured, in the past. And our enemies have come up with many more 'artistic' methods of extracting information than *waterboarding*.

109 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 1:47:21pm
110 Lumyrra  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 2:00:22pm

re: #109 ploome hineni

Sorry if I'm being an idiot, but could you explain what part of my post you were replying to?

111 sojerofgod  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 2:15:02pm

re: #109 ploome hineni

You never get 100% of anything, certainly not political agreement. I think the dems are so far out in "Left Field" literally, they can't see past the weeds.

That is why it is vital that we Don't Vote Donkey this year.

Remember, silence (not voting) is the same as aquiescence.

112 richiep  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 3:22:09pm

Good. If other methods fail and then it needs to be done. We are dealing with mass murders who will use whatever means to kill significant numbers of civilians. To roughly paraphrase "our constitution is not a suicide pact" and fortunately "we are able to sleep peacefully at night because rough men are willing to hurt those men that want to harm us."

113 profitsbeard  Sat, Mar 8, 2008 5:14:12pm

"If cats could talk, they wouldn't."

That's a thought that these Sh*�@+ds need to comprehend.

How much of the F#$&*ing store do they want to give away?

Store of psyops.

Store of effective interrogation techniques.

Store of brute intimidation needed to impress maniacs. (A stubbord bunch.)

All of the military, mental and mumbo-jumbo storehouse of methods, they coyly-cripple simply by discussing.

They need to argue offstage.

They're dangerously shallow.

114 JohnRC  Sun, Mar 9, 2008 12:31:56am

democrats don't want aggressive interrorgation techniques because we'll find out who they're really working for.

115 ludwigvanquixote  Sun, Mar 9, 2008 1:19:03pm

This is one place where I must completely, but respectfully, disagree with the most of the other lizards.

I can find other references to this, but the truth is that the United States prosecuted and convicted Japanese officers after the Second World War for the then *war crime* of water boarding. It has always been a point of honor in our armed forces that we *do not* do stuff like this.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

An excerpt:

"After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

At no point should we ever consider sinking to the level of the Islamists.
If you want to see these animals "get theirs" or not, there is no call to stain our national honor.

I am certain the angry responses will come to me now for typing this.
That is fine, but please consider, I am no moonbat. I am a patriot and I support America. It is because of this that I wish to keep our morals intact.

116 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Mar 9, 2008 1:28:23pm

I would also respectfully like to add,

Regardless of if some of you think I am a lefty for making the previous post, it was clear to President Truman and General MacArthur that waterboarding was torture, illegal, against the Geneva Convention and punishable. You can not accuse them of being moonbats.

We should be outraged by this practice.


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