half the time i go to empty the recycle bin and vista crashes, what a pos.

XP SP2 anyday

Clinton forced MS to split and gates took it to India -- end of computer revolution.

Wow!

Holy cr*p! Microsoft should be ashamed; it's not like they don't have the talent and the money to do it right. Good grief.

My Vista works just fine.

Geez - I'm hoping MS bags Vista altogether (although I know they won't; being MS means never having to say you were wrong...or sorry) XP is a fine platform and I STILL don't know why they hadda go introduce VISTA which as a LONG time user of Windows I had a helluva time figuring out just how to operate it!

Here's to hoping my full household transition to Debian is complete before the year is out.

Drink!

Yikes.

"Hello, my name is... Bill G... And I cannot stand Vista."

re: #5 DesertSage Sage, we ain't talking about the view from the windows in your house, it's the computer version of VISTA we're all talking about. LOL!
And btw, if yours works, good on ya - Best Buy's Senior Computer Rep told me about 40% of Vista installed machines were returned within 30 days by "dissatisfied users".

I bought a laptop for Mrs. AndJew. It was infected with Vista, and brought it bargain dual core processor to its knees. I spent days hunting the web for XP compatible drivers for the lappy's hardware. It is now humming along nicely with XP SP2, but with Vista here, the writing is on the wall. XP's for the chop.

Well it's been grand as usual y'all but I gotta get to bed right now; I really hate waking up with keyboard face!
Hope all of you have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get to see you down the road.

Vista Sukks

I am of the opinion that a significant problem related to Microsoft's software products is that they appear to be somewhat lacking in developing a good, sound enterprise-wide testing methodology. Just my 2.

When the hell is XP SP3 coming out?

I don't want no stinking Vista or IE 8, for that matter. My IE6 is still rolling along just fine. LOL Of course my IE6 replaced me Netscape 3.5. You know that I am not voting for CHANGE now, don't you.

re: #11 realwest
We will se you down the road, Realwest. Take care and sleep well.

Here come the Mac fanboys, dual booting Windows.

/wait for it

Window's 2000

Does everything I need it to do.

Works great except with some newer programs that require XP...but I don't need them and life goes on just fine without them.

Vile
Interface
Sure
To
Agonize

re: #18 Dar ul Harbarian

Window's 2000

Does everything I need it to do.

Works great except with some newer programs that require XP...but I don't need them and life goes on just fine without them.

No, no, no.

/you must become a Mac user because Windows sucks, that's why they ship Macs with it

I just got a new syste, H-P with 2G RAM, 400G h.d., and an AMD64 4800+ CPU.

I turned it on just long enough to make sure it could boot from the hard drive. That was the only time Vista ran on this computer.

Now running SLAMD64 Linux, one week and counting.

Actually, since the advent of SP2 and subsequent updates, my desktop has proved to be quite stable, and I'm pleased with IE7 in general. The only issues I've had relate to NTFS and with some shell extension problems.

I don't hear much grumbling from the people I know with Vista, not that i have a peachy attitude about Microsoft myself. At any rate, no sense in hoping it will be recalled.

"You're old Gates, and your code is weak"

Vista = AOL. A digital sucking sound. Next time I think Ill go Mac.

Oh yeah, and for a while there last year I was having a terrible time with Windows Update, but got that resolved after much hair pulling.

re: #20 Killian Bundy

No, no, no.

/you must become a Mac user because Windows sucks, that's why they ship Macs with it

I just don't grok Macs and Linux.
The file structure just seems so odd.

Caught this NY Times link off the MS Vista story:

The New York Times
March 9, 2008

The State of Iraq: An Update

By JASON CAMPBELL, MICHAEL O’HANLON and AMY UNIKEWICZ

IRAQ’S security turnaround has continued through the winter. The question for 2008 is whether Iraqi security forces can preserve and build on this improvement as they increasingly bear more of the responsibility as the number of American troops declines...

It is far too soon to predict that Iraq is headed for stability or sectarian reconciliation. But it is also clear that those who assert that its politics are totally broken have not kept up with the news.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

And the accompanying chart for the article:
[Link: graphics.nytimes.com...]

I've waited 5 years a media organization to write a story such as this, with visible metrics.

They should just rename it Hasta La Vista...

Time to buy more Apple stock.

re: #26 Dar ul Harbarian

I just don't grok Macs and Linux.
The file structure just seems so odd.

It comes down to one cardinal rule: a single directory tree, no drive letters required. The conventional locations each have their places, like /tmp for temporary, single-task files, or /var for ephemeral data that has to survive a reboot (like a mail spool or a print queue), or /home for user directories. You can keep these on different volumes (partitions), and then mount them onto directory locations to make their contents available.

Linux follows this convention pretty strongly (the FHS, Filesystem Hierarchy Standard lays it out well). I'm not sure how closely the Mac follows any standard but Mac.

"realwest 3/09/08 9:58:30 pm
...and I STILL don't know why they hadda go introduce VISTA which as a LONG time user of Windows I had a helluva time figuring out just how to operate it!"

It's all about the product upgrade cycle, which used to be what kept the Tech sector economy humming. It's sort of like "planned obsolescence," but more like trying to stay one step ahead of obsolescence. Anyway, in my opinion Vista played a minor but critical role in the current economic challenges.

Hilarious... sounds like the VP had the same experience I did, the Vistas looked a little cloudy..

Mrs. RoughRider got a computer pre-loaded with Vista about 6 months ago, and now she's begging me to see if my college bookstore has an upgrade to XP I can get for her.

re: #30 victor_yugo

It comes down to one cardinal rule: a single directory tree, no drive letters required. The conventional locations each have their places, like /tmp for temporary, single-task files, or /var for ephemeral data that has to survive a reboot (like a mail spool or a print queue), or /home for user directories. You can keep these on different volumes (partitions), and then mount them onto directory locations to make their contents available.

Linux follows this convention pretty strongly (the FHS, Filesystem Hierarchy Standard lays it out well). I'm not sure how closely the Mac follows any standard but Mac.

Mac OS X is basically a GUI for BSD Unix, and all of those directory conventions are followed. Your user directory is ~/, and the /tmp, /var, and /etc directories all serve the same purposes they do in Unix/Linux. If you know how to work with Linux you'll have no trouble with Mac OS X's directory structure.

re: #4 gop_patriot

Actually they don't have the talent. It is just assumed that they do. Unfortunately, mainstream audiences don't really feel like they have
an alternative.

That's what clean installs are for. Worked for me with zero issues.

re: #34 Charles

Mac OS X is basically a GUI for BSD Unix, and all of those directory conventions are followed. Your user directory is ~/, and the /tmp, /var, and /etc directories all serve the same purposes they do in Unix/Linux.

Caution: the "~/" directory is translated by the CLI shell to the user's home directory. The "~/" path doesn't apply in other programs, unless they are specifically written thus.

/found out the hard way

Also, aren't most Mac programs now based on Cocoa, based on NextStep? Those programs and libraries have their own path conventions, IIRC.

I'm surprised that my Vista experience has been fine so far. I heard lots of horror stories and expected to hate it, but aside from the usual new o.s. hide-and-seek frustration, everything's been fine.

p.s. I found PC Decrapifier to be a big help if you want to dump all of the bloatware that comes pre-loaded on new PCs.

Years from now they'll be using the Vista development process as the textbook example of what not to do. Vista was initially supposed to deliver an object-based filesystem that would allow for advanced searching and document organization, and it was supposed to do away with the abysmal Windows API (application programming interface - the manner in which programs communicate with the Windows system. It's worse than being waterboarded) and replace it with a 100% .NET environment. These goals would have made for a worthwhile upgrade, but they couldn't be delivered on time. Microsoft had given itself an immovable deadline.

Back in 2004, Microsoft introduced the ironically named "Software Advantage" to their business volume license customers. Essentially, customers would pre-pay for three years of software upgrades when they bought their software. Microsoft wanted a guaranteed revenue stream, and in exchange customers would get discounted upgrade. This carrot came with a stick - Microsoft would no longer sell upgrades to volume license customers, so if you didn't buy software assurance you would have to buy new licenses when a new version came out. Microsoft shipped the almost 100% feature-incomplete Vista when they did because they were at the edge of their first Software Assurance customers three-year contracts running out (which is why it shipped to volume license customers two months before anyone else got it). If these customers had wound up buying Software Assurance and then not gotten an upgrade (especially after being essentially blackmailed into purchasing it), the reaction would not have been good. So we're all stuck with a useless crap-tastic "upgrade" that does nothing new and takes twice as much computer to do it.

re: #39 EriKTheRed

And Apple still feels the need to ship and dual boot it.

/go figure

The day when Apple licenses their OS to PC manufacturers is the day that Apple dies.

/that's why they don't do it

My Vista works.

Knock on wood.

And I use Movie Maker.

I feel like I'm trying to convince the Kos Kids that FISA is imporant. Guys, there's more details here and the NY Times doesn't provide all of it (suprise!).

MSFT did screw up, but not so much in the OS itself.

One problem is that Intel begged MSFT to dumb down the "Vista Ready" requirements because they had a large inventory of boards with low quality video cards embedded that they needed to dump on the market. This is one of the problems specifically mentioned in the article. MSFT helped Intel, but hurt themsevles and their customers severely by dumbing down the requirements.

The other thing is that consider that the differences between 2000 and XP weren't that great whereas Vista is a rewrite. For once MSFT favored security over compatibility -- it certainly wasn't that way in the past. So with a new and more secure code base, driver compatibility was more difficult and for whatever reason MSFT wasn't able to get the 3rd party ecosystem in place until about now.

Did MSFT screw up? With Intel and the "Vista capable" thing absolutely. But this doesn't mean Vista itself is a lemon. Apple's advantage is that they control the hardware, Microsoft doesn't.

I have a couple neighbors that bought "Designed for Vista" marchines this year and they've been happy.

The overwhelming majority of Vista problems had to do with either substandard hardware or driver availability. Anyone buying a "Designed for Vista" machine or anything less than 12 months old for that matter should be fine. Especially now that SP1 is out.

re: #38 stevieray

I'm surprised that my Vista experience has been fine so far. I heard lots of horror stories and expected to hate it, but aside from the usual new o.s. hide-and-seek frustration, everything's been fine.

p.s. I found PC Decrapifier to be a big help if you want to dump all of the bloatware that comes pre-loaded on new PCs.

:) I'm not the only one! Thanks for the link - I will check it out.

I bought my comp from a Persian expat. He was very clear to say Persian, so I asked him - he despises the Iran honchos and is proud to be Persian. His parents went back to Iran, but he was darned if he would - he will be a Persian American citizen some day. Plus he was a hunk, but never mind...way off the subject.

re: #44 kellino

That could explain my lack of issues. I upgraded stuff, made sure I had what I needed in the way of hardware and components, etc. I bought a whole new comp, too - I didn't upgrade an old one.

I like my Vista. There - I said it.

It has a dynamite search function. I really like it. Plus you can run the command interface from the search box - instantly - if you feel like pinging someone or whatever.

Plus I always hated pressing Start to shut down. That was irrational.

re: #39 EriKTheRed

Years from now they'll be using the Vista development process as the textbook example of what not to do. Vista was initially supposed to deliver an object-based filesystem that would allow for advanced searching and document organization, and it was supposed to do away with the abysmal Windows API.

Heh, that would be NT 5.0, aka Cairo, due to be released in 1995 but running just a little bit late.

More like, Vista was supposed to be the happy DRM operating system, aka Longhorn ... but Microsoft hasn't had any success getting themselves in the circuit on this stuff.

That the zex at Microsoft are shocked and surprised, is just so modern management, they are that removed from actual operations, and care less.

re: #47 itellu3times

You spoiled my run. I was going to claim this thread as all mine. :)

You know, I've come a long way from Vogon poetry on a friend's Commodore 64 with the 5.25" floppys.

/never felt the need for Mac OS

re: #45 Cattt

:) I'm not the only one! Thanks for the link - I will check it out.

I bought my comp from a Persian expat. He was very clear to say Persian, so I asked him - he despises the Iran honchos and is proud to be Persian. His parents went back to Iran, but he was darned if he would - he will be a Persian American citizen some day. Plus he was a hunk, but never mind...way off the subject.

I dated a Persian expat for while. She despised the mullahs and the brutal system they imposed in her homeland. She used to tell me horror stories [this was back in the 90's], and I took them with a big grain of salt... I figured she was exaggerating... no religion could be that oppressive! I should have listened... it would have saved me a lot of catch-up learning post 9-11.

XP is so much better, and its older. Retarded!

I use Vista Ultimate 64 Bit on my older Core 2 Duo laptop (2.13ghz) w/2G ram) and it runs perfectly. That was with a clean install.

The one big UI change that I love is the programs section of the start menu. In XP if you have a lot of stuff installed your old screen gets blanketed by programs, The nested expandable list is a lot neater.

Maybe I was just lucky, but all my peripherals had Vista drivers, even 64 bit ones. (printers, scanner, etc). Epson and HP are usually on the ball with that sort of stuff.

Time to try sleeping again. Goodnight all.

re: #49 Killian Bundy

/never felt the need for Mac OS

Yes, KB, we get the idea, you have nothing but total disdain for all things Macintosh. But please note: you were the first to broach the topic on this thread.

Give it a rest, will ya?

re: #54 victor_yugo

Give it a rest, will ya?

/turn about is fair play

re: #55 Killian Bundy

/turn about is fair play

Given the fact that you are the one bringing it up on this thread, not Charles, not anybody else, I'd say it's more of an obsession on your part. Kind of like the girlfriend who just refuses to admit that you broke up with her weeks ago.

re: #56 victor_yugo

Given the fact that you are the one bringing it up on this thread, not Charles, not anybody else, I'd say it's more of an obsession on your part. Kind of like the girlfriend who just refuses to admit that you broke up with her weeks ago.

Well, gee, I apologize.

/maybe you should go review the numerous I love my infallible Mac child and you PC people suck threads

re: #56 victor_yugo

By the way, I own AAPL.

/and lately that sucks too

Vista as the "happy DRM" system? It's more like the "sadistic DRM system".

I've been waiting for an apology from the Acerbic Bundy for some time now.

Thanks!

re: #60 RTLM

I've been waiting for an apology from the Acerbic Bundy for some time now.

Thanks!

Well, I apologize.

/for what?

re: #61 Killian Bundy

Well, I apologize.

/for what?

For being a blunt, rude bastard -

(feelings)

It turns out that Mike is clearly not a naif. He’s Mike Nash, a Microsoft vice president who oversees Windows product management. bought a laptop without bothering to read the specs and then acts surprised.

He's either naive or extremely arrogant. Who would buy hardware without checking the specs? How does he manage to do his job on a daily basis? He must be real fun to work for.

sorry (apology) to disrupt the tech thread - mosy'n - on

re: #62 RTLM

For being a blunt, rude bastard -

(feelings)

Well, again, I'm sorry. I am a rude, blunt bastard.

/and, again, I didn't deliberately misspell your nic (I reported it), approaching 20K comments and I have never altered anyone's nic, I just use the reply and quote buttons Charles has so graciously provided

re: #65 Killian Bundy

Well, again, I'm sorry. I am a rude, blunt bastard.

/and, again, I didn't deliberately misspell your nic (I reported it), approaching 20K comments and I have never altered anyone's nic, I just use the reply and quote buttons Charles has so graciously provided

You reported me?!

That' just awful.

re: #66 RTLM

You reported me?!

That' just awful.

No I reported my own comment after you pointed it out.

/because it happened and I don't ever alter reply nics

I did the Vista thing with a new HP laptop several months back. I dumped it and bought a new IBM T61.

Mainly, I just couldn't get used to the HP keyboard. Soft, squishy action with poor tactile feedback. But it came pre-infected pre-loaded with Vista.

I was astonished at how slow that laptop was - even with 2 GB RAM and a dual-core 2 GHz+ processor. It just seemed like I was trying to run Win98 on a 386. It was just dreadful.

I took a beating when I sold it on eBay, but as fo the new IBM (Lenovo), the hardware is terrific - very robust, with a FAR more useable keyboard.

And it came with XP SP2 and a Vista DVD. I have no Vista problems with this machine at all - because that Vista disk is right where it belongs - still sealed in the box.

At best, I felt like Vista was a solution in search of a problem. It has a nicer GUI and does some cute tricks.

On my more cynical days, I felt like it was a virus.

I'm sticking with XP Pro until such time as Microsoft installs infects its own machines first, fixes everything, then releases it to the masses.

Bill's boxes first.

Vista where the limit has been reached and Bill bailed out -- nuf' said/.

And here I thought Solaris was a pain in the ass on certain hardware.

Drive letters? Shortcuts? I just don't grok Windows. The file structure seems so... odd.

My Commodore 64 still has trouble getting Little Green Footballs to load.

I have a friend prone to malapropisms who keeps calling it "Windows Viscera".

Quite frankly it's humorous to see the reaction to two pretty, but rather less than stellar products by Apple and Microsoft.

Vista looks nice, but doesn't really do much for the user who likes XP. There is really very little incentive to upgrade. Vista really has no purpose.

The Macbook Air looks nice, but is very expensive and slow. It's one ground-breaking feature is that it is thin and can fit in an envelope. But as a $3000 laptop, it too really has no purpose. "Thinnovation" is a ironically appropriate slogan, because that's all it is...Thin.

Most PC users haven't upgraded. Mac users get in line to buy whatever Steve Jobs produces. That's the difference between the two camps.

One's more tool...the other is more lifestyle. The constant proselytizing does get old, however.

I look for stability in an operating system. My 'puter is on 24/7/365 servicing my home network. Using XP SP2 I have had no crashes in the last 5 years.

Works for me. I'll change when I have to.

re: #35 peracles

They may have at one point. I believe MS has suffered serious brain drain to Google over the past 5 years. Vista may be the result.

The first day my new vista box fell over a lot, but once it auto-loaded its updated drivers it started behaving better. I even (eventually, by using 'help') found where to turn file extension exposure back on again. MS really wants to take that away. File Structure? They tried to make it friendlier, but just made it more confusing. The new windoes explorer is slightly annoying, but works. Old one won't run anymore, in case you wondered. Drivers? My brother Printer/scanner/fax works fine, and so does my laser printer. NVidia has an upgraded driver for Vista, downloaded that the other day, seems to work fine. Games is another story. There is some kind of rubicon between Vista and XP that is tough to cross. The jerks at MS only released Halo 2 (From Microsoft) for Vista (huh?), Myst won't run on Vista, "Solar Empire" (another MS Product) has problems, but mostly works (some graphics issues that seem to be transient). Now let's talk about the new Word. Why did they have to take away the arcane menu system that they forced me to learn over the last decade? Bill Gates truly is the anti-christ. :)

linking the new york times?

Vista Sucks.

re: #28 thebronze

They should just rename it Hasta La Vista...

Good one! xD

We've been running Vista in our office since 11/07. The only issues we ran into were some programs wouldn't work in the new version,so we had some unexpected software upgrades which increased the cost of the upgrade (ACT!, Adobe products).

One thing that really screwed us up was that UPS Worldship was incompatible with Vista - kind of important when you are a shipping business. We had to find a spare beater machine to run Worldship on XP. I was excited when I got the newest version of UPS Worldship the other day, until I saw the note inside that said it was compatible with Windows XP and higher EXCEPT FOR VISTA. Huh?

I've only managed to lock up Vista once, but I was running about 20 programs at once - so it was my fault. Occasionally I'll run into a program that isn't compatible with the Aero scheme, so the display drivers flip back to basic mode - occasionally causing a crash - but Vista is able to recover from that without rebooting.

Microsoft offers a solution for all Vista problem by providing Virtual PC for free.

This program enables you to run XP or any other operating system under Vista so that you don't have to lose any capability.

You can get Virtual PC here [Link: www.microsoft.com...]

Vista works fine for me. Never had a driver conflict. HP printer, nvidia graphics card, sound card, keyboard wireless mouse, gamepad everything works with it. Seems alot of people who have problems with vista never researched the OS before they bought.
My biggest problem is now I have 4 gigs of RAM and need to upgrade to the 64 bit version. Even then everything has drivers.

We don't call it MicroShoddy for nothing.

Ok, I have supported top executives and I can tell you that they are not PC competent. It does not matter if they are MS execs or railroad execs. These people are so used to having others do their nitty-gritty work that they never learn the ropes themselves. Often they go out and buy hardware without consulting people with knowledge and are upset when that hardware does not work.

While I am not a fan of Vista, this is not earth shattering in my view.

Holy fuck, can we drop it already?

We heard all this SAME EXACT SHIT when XP came out.

XP was a memory hog. There weren't any drivers. It crashed. It was slow. Yadda fucking yadda.

I was hoping this kind of Vista whining was DONE. But apparently its not.

Guess what? If you have a POS machine, you can't run the latest OS on it.

Guess what else? If your cheap hardware doesn't have decent drivers for Vista available, you might experience problems. Either live with XP on your old fucking hardware or get some new stuff that DOESNT SUCK (that last bit is for the whiners with "Vista Ready" cheap boxes that can't run Aero).

I've got an XPS laptop that's a year and a half old. It runs Vista faster than XP. Yes, that's right. Faster. Perhaps some of you whiners shouldn't have installed your regular load of fifteen hundred browser toolbars when you upgraded?

If you don't like Vista, KEEP YOUR FUCKING MOUTH SHUT. Either keep XP on your box or install Umbutu on it. Just PLEASE for the love of ALLAH keep your FILTHY WHINING FESTERHOLE SHUT. We're FUCKING TIRED OF IT. Its been almost a YEAR! DIAF! GTFO! STFU! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux! Run Linux!

Was that a little angry?

Also, STFU about Vista already! Holy fuck! LEAVE. Go be a mac fanboi! Go RTFM and install some flavor of Linux! Go be a productive human being! Just shut your fucking mouth already! GO! LEAVE! I HATE ALL OF YOU! AND THEN GO TO WASHINGTON AND TAKE BACK THE WHITE HOUSE! YEEEAAARRRGH!

So, I'm going to dissent a bit.

I'm, er, nobody and I've managed to upgrade numerous machines to Vista and purchase several more machines to run Vista "in all its glory".

I think this episode says more about Jon, Steve, and Mike than Vista per se.

I've been very happy with Server2003, and was expecting Vista to be Server 2003 with some bells and whistles. HA! What a disappointment.

I'm likely going to switch to Win2008 Workstation if I can get games to work. It blows away Vista.

Windows "Workstation" 2008 Clobbers Vista in Benchmark Testing

Guess I'm one of those who has been using various windows OSes (OSim?) and I have to admit a lot of impatience with Vista. It just requires too many clicks to get from point A to point B in too many cases. I've turned off almost every warm and friendly feature to try to get back the classic interface and it hasn't helped a bunch. Sharing on a workgroup is still a mystery. No matter what I do, the Vista machine won't see the rest of the workgroup. But if I do it as a \pcnamethisfolder it finds it in a heartbeat. Office 2007 nearly has me in tears. I've added so much to my toolbar in Excel it is taking up tons of room. Maybe I'm too set in my ways to learn something new, but just damn annoying.

Well rant over. But someone else started it!

re: #92 mollyshark
Check your workgroup name. I run a mixed vista/xp/2000 (yes 2000 - well, that one is going out the door shortly) network, and Vista sees everything and can access it.

I have to agree with the Vista fiasco.

I recently upgraded my Windows XP SP2 to Vista Ultimate 32-bit edition. BIG mistake. Upon completion of updating, I went back to verify my peripheral devices would operate and, lo & behold, my HP 5300 Scanner would not work. So I ascertained why and found out Vista did not have a driver for the device & HP no longer supported my scanner for Vista, which, btw, I purchased in 2001. I was so pissed off about this I backed up my files I needed and wiped my drive clean & reinstalled Windows 2000 SP4. I've had zero problems since.

Lesson learned: Find a Windows preinstallation HCP and see if your devices work with Vista.

re: #91 peekpoke

re: #91 peekpoke

I've been very happy with Server2003, and was expecting Vista to be Server 2003 with some bells and whistles. HA! What a disappointment.

I'm likely going to switch to Win2008 Workstation if I can get games to work. It blows away Vista.

Windows "Workstation" 2008 Clobbers Vista in Benchmark Testing

Umm...do you realize that Windows 2008 and Vists SP1 share the exact same kernel and code base? Even IIS7 originally appeared in Vista SP0.

As you alluded to, there is a whole populist movement to get Windows 2008 Server (there is no workstation edition) to run well as a workstation OS. But it's the same code as Vista SP1! Same driver model too.

It just goes to show how much perceptions influence human thinking.

I'm a Windows Network admin and support tech. To be honest, most businesses I service are planning on sticking with XP as long as they possibly can, and may even skip Vista altogether for the next iteration of Windows. I also know of a couple that are planning a switch to Linux on their desktops.

MS made several core errors in Vista. The first was "colluding" with Intel on the "Vista Capable" logo system. (Yes, I said "colluding". Altering your marketing to specifically benefit a partner company is a form of collusion, although it may not be an illegal form in this instance. Thus the quotation marks.) The proper way to do it would have been to stick to the original (and proper) requirements, and told Intel to just sell the old boards at a discount.

The second problem was pushing DRM technology in the face of consumer desires. Face it: NOBODY except those that will profit from it wants DRM. All it does is cost the consumer more money and make it more difficult to use the stuff you want in the LEGAL manner you want. Vista is infected with performance-robbing and freedom-robbing DRM.

The third problem was changing the interface in unnecessary ways simply to make it "new". Here's a clue Microsoft; Different does not always mean better. The Windows interface was basically unchanged for 5 iterations. There wasn't any need to make drastic changes, as it worked well and people understood it. Making drastic changes raises the learning curve, and makes alternatives like Mac and Linux more palatable to switch to. (If it's just as hard and costs the same to switch to another OS, why not switch?)

The last problem was not entirely Microsoft's, but they do share a large portion of the blame: With the drastic changes in the overall structure of Windows to a semi-"Unixy" model (just semi unixy, not full bore yet) Both Microsoft and hardware manufacturers failed to take into account how much that would change how hardware drivers interact with the OS Kernel. Hardware manufacturers didn't step up and write drivers properly, and Microsoft didn't release their dev kits early enough OR push the hardware makers hard enough to get on the stick and get the drivers up to date.

These four things together combined to make Vista the abject failure it is today. Someday it may be PASSABLE as an OS, but not now. Ultimately, most people are either going to stick with XP, wait until the successor to Vista comes out, or switch to Mac or Linux.

Myself, I have XP and Ubuntu Linux boxes at home, and I have decided that the next OS at our house will be Ubuntu Linux. No more Windows once XP is retired.

re: #97 sloggin420

Microsoft Baddd... Macintosh Gooddd...

More Microsoft Derangement Syndrome from the insecure Macintosh enthusiasts... Keep it coming boys, makes Macs look like the Islam of the PC world...

So it's not just me then. I agree that the level of technical understanding, intelligence and maturity displayed by the Microsoft haters more closely resembles postings at the Daily Kos.

There's nothing wrong with Macs and I like them within a specific role. Remember when Al Gore's campaign was promoting that their web site was 100% open source? LOL

re: #98 kellino

Remember when Al Gore's campaign was promoting that their web site was 100% open source? LOL

Or was that John Kerry? I forget now.

It's all a matter of scale.

Microsoft has more people working on more features that need to be compatible with more existing applications and hardware than anyone else in the business. The level of dependencies is insane, making change risky and non-deterministic.

That said, MS delivers more value to more people than any other software company.

It is neither evil nor altruistic. It is merely a company breaking ground, doing huge things trying not to implode because of it's own mass.

Just my $0.02

re: #101 sloggin420

Apple is unique in that they control the hardware -- this pretty much removes driver and compatibility problems that Microsoft is constantly challeneged with.

Microsoft operating systems are hopelessly tied to the IBM PC model that IBM introduced in the 80's. In some ways that's good and in other ways bad.

I saw a report recently that said that it was much easier to hack a Mac than Vista, but there's more worms available for Windows simply due to market share.

You never hear anyone complaining that Vista is insecure or that it crashes. My XP still crashes every now and then, but I have yet to have seen a blue screen on Vista.

re: #20 Killian Bundy

No, no, no.

/you must become a Mac user because Windows sucks, that's why they ship Macs with it

Actually... Macs don't ship with Windows. They ship with the ability boot to Windows if a person owns a licensed copy of Windows and chooses to install it.

re: #104 sloggin420

Oh, Vista still can crash, especially if you've got the wrong driver in place or a poorly written one. You were spot on about the hardware. If MS could control/limit the usable hardware the way Apple does they would have little if any issues. You're also spot on about the security issues. Why waste time writing viruses for the Mac or hacking it when your time is better spent hacking the PC with the greatest market penetration.

Sorry, that's just not true. In all the time Mac OS X has been in release, there has not been a single virus or malware app for it. This isn't simply because of a smaller market share, it's because the underlying OS is Unix--and Unix is vastly more secure than Windows. Just a fact. Not perfectly secure, of course (nothing is), but so much more secure than Windows, it's in a completely different class.

Personally, I couldn't care less about OS wars. Whatever gets the job done is what you should use. But it's not true that there's no difference in the security of OS X and Windows.

And the fact that Microsoft executives were so harsh in their criticism of Vista is news. It's not "bashing."

re: #107 Charles

And the fact that Microsoft executives were so harsh in their criticism of Vista is news. It's not "bashing."

Speaking for myself here, but any "bashing" that I observed took place in the comments section and not by Charles.

I would also suggest that there is a difference between Vista the product and the marketing of Vista. MSFT's decision to accomodate Intel on dumbing down the requirements is not a reflection of the product itself, as much as a bad marketing decision.

I agree that there is little worms/malware for Macs.

2000 and XP were filled with systemic flaws that came from favoring compatibility over security as well as a lack of security attentiveness in coding.

Vista is MUCH better (than XP) when it comes to security and several have suggested -- either export quotes or metrics -- that Vista is harder to hack than a Mac. There's a difference between worms and hacking. Worms are code written for platforms that lead in market share, whereas hacking is a series of actions taken against a target.

People can claim "my platform is better". but at some point this becomes silly.

I think that both Macs and Vista are much safer platforms than 2000/XP.

Charles - I've got a question for you. I have some financial programs that only run on Windows. Is there a way to run these programs within Apple's Unix system so they'd be (relatively) secure? I know you can run Windows on an Apple machine but does that negate Apples security? I'd be willing to go the Apple route but not everything I need runs on an Apple.

re: #109 Uncle Joe

Charles - I've got a question for you. I have some financial programs that only run on Windows. Is there a way to run these programs within Apple's Unix system so they'd be (relatively) secure? I know you can run Windows on an Apple machine but does that negate Apples security? I'd be willing to go the Apple route but not everything I need runs on an Apple.

You can run Windows on a Mac by using a program like VMWare Fusion (my preference) or Parallels. But when you're running Windows -- it's Windows, and it's susceptible to the same insecurities as Windows on a dedicated PC.

The advantage with running it in a "virtual machine," though, is that you can "sandbox" Windows. Even if you do catch something, the damage is limited and easily reversible.

Okay, thank you, Charles.

re: #109 Uncle Joe

Charles - I've got a question for you. I have some financial programs that only run on Windows. Is there a way to run these programs within Apple's Unix system so they'd be (relatively) secure? I know you can run Windows on an Apple machine but does that negate Apples security? I'd be willing to go the Apple route but not everything I need runs on an Apple.

I know this was for Charles but I'll give it a shot :)

I'm going to assume that you are running Windows apps by means of VMWare fusion or some other form of virtualization. You may not "see" the virtualization, but under the hood it is emulating a Windows computer and presenting your application in a seamless window.

Picture a box inside a box if that helps.

The virtual Windows computer basically has access to your Mac's network interface (optionally it can use NAT). So basically there's a Windows computer that is using the physical network port on your Mac.

While the windows virtual machine is running it is as vulnerable as any other windows machine and should be firewalled. If you assign the VM a static address or a specific range (as opposed to using DHCP off of the virtual NIC), then you can limit on your physical firewall to only use the TCP/UDP ports that you need for Quicken or whatever (which is probably mostly 80/443). Of course you can also run a firewall inside the windows VM itself.

When the Windows VM is powered off, there is no risk.

Bottom line is that if you use the Mac for all your surfing/email, and only have Windows active for brief periods you should be pretty safe. You can improve this by restricting the VM to only the required ports using either the physical firewall, or a software firewall in the VM (XP SP2 has a very basic/minimalist firewall).

If all you do in Windows is run Quicken, and it talks on ports 80/443, there's little opportunity for malware to enter since you're not using the windows VM for email. web surfing, etc.

Hope that helps. If I missed something I'm sure someone will jump in.

re: #110 Charles

The advantage with running it in a "virtual machine," though, is that you can "sandbox" Windows. Even if you do catch something, the damage is limited and easily reversible.

Exactly.

I was being more conservative in my response based on the need to protect financial information within the Windows VM.

But yes, generally you don't have to be too concerned with infected VM's posing a risk for the host. I have some VM's that I really don't mind if they get infected.

On that note there was a recent security flaw in the Windows version of VMWare. It had to do with the ability to share folders between the VM and the host OS. I don't know that the Mac version had this bug, but something to be mindful of -- as VM's become more popular these integration points will become increasingly targeted.

Vista is to operating systems what TSA is to airport security.

re: #44 kellino

Every time I upgrade the mac OS the result is a faster system with more features -on the SAME hardware. Each version is more efficient than the last and offers more features and ease of use. Upgrading the mac OS on your old mac is like buying a new mac.

This is NOT the case when you install vista on a machine that was running XP just fine. Vista is a dog.

re: #88 mcgurk

Wipe that MS flavor-aid off your chin...
dood, vista sucks