Dearest Little Green Footballs,

I think the conventional wisdom is correct in saying that there is a double standard involved here.

However, realpolitik will dictate that the Israelis must pull the settlements out, right or wrong.

My view is that Israel should pull them out altogether and delineate a strict border.

After this groundbreaking event, any bullet, bomb, suicide or conventional, molotov cocktail, etc., can be interpreted as an act of aggression by a State (Palestine).

Israel would then be obliged to say "I told ya so" and demolish the Palestinians and send them fleeing into Jordan where they belong.

Just a thought.

However, realpolitik will dictate that the Israelis must pull the settlements out, right or wrong.

Is realpolitik just another word then for terrorism? It seems the fatigue of anti-zionist propaganda has seeped into our own culture to the point where we think we have to be "reasonable" with these people, instead of doing what is just and right (defeating the portion of their culture which is bent on defeating us).

And AG, Israel has taken the moral high road numerous times, nearly everyone of which entitles it to say "I told ya so", and yet the world doesn't allow it to say I told you so. I think you have good intentions in your theory but history shows that it doesn't play out that way.

I forget if it was Pipes or Friedman who said that Israel needs to be allowed to win a political victory. Its won all its military victories but the world stops short of making the Arab world pay for their losses in any significant political way.

i read this op-ed earlier today, and i agree with him almost totally. personally, the most sensible way to resolve the conflict is a confederation, where, as he says, palestinian citizens will live in israel and israeli citizens will live in palestine. unfortunately, this plan just isn't in the works, and the predictable violence will come as a result. and he's right--once israel declares it has NO rights in hebron, it will have no legitimate argument to tel aviv, other than 'we're here.'

The Israelis must pull the jordanian and fgyptian arab terrorists out of the jewish gaza, Judea, and Samaria or as it is called Yesha!

The arguments for keeping the settlements ring true. However, I must agree with AG. The settlements must go. Build a wall, leaving a security zone. One side is Israel, one side is 'Palestine'. Anyone left on a side they don't want to be on, can leave or stay under the laws of that nation. Settlers and Palestinians. Then, when Arafat et.al. continue to rage about Israeli 'occupation' or whatever, the gig is up. It will become obvious to most people that the Palestinians do not want 2 states side by side. (I cannot fathom why that isn't obvious to most people already).
I don't think Israel can do "what is just and right (defeating the portion of their culture which is bent on defeating us)." That portion will be replaced by more bent on defeating Israel.

There will never be a 23rd arab country especially one so close to Israel.

Nor, will those arab terrorists ever become Israeli citizens.

The Jewish people who live in the historically Jewish parts of Israel (Judea, Samaria, and Gaza) which were reunified after 2,000 years of exile from the jordanian and egyptian armies after the 1967 war are the real heroes.

arabs and many westernes assume arabs can live with jews but jews cant live where arabs live is the most degrading asssumption i have ever heard.

There are arab-israelis, yet Jews living in a Israeli territory mostly populated by arabs are for some reason considered irghtfully to be 'free of jews' or as the nazis would say 'Judenrien.'

First off this is Jewish historic land from the 1st and second temples till the roman exiled them to bablyonia with lasted for 2,000 years.

Second Israel now owns this land after fighting a defensive war. Thats how it works you attack me i win i decide the terms of the peace.

The terrorists in the largely arab towns do not dictate the terms of who gets to live in their little squalor. Brave jewish and non-jewish souls who the terrorsits want to be free of liek the Nazis and many others still today will will never get there way in ISrael proper.

There will never be a town or village in Israel that will free of Jews sorry you facists bigots thats not in gods plan so deal with it.

- Surah and the other arab AG -

You are a arab terrorists PR wet dream.

You buy into everything their murder of people have spewed.

It is pathetic to hear people who speak english say what the terrorists say is why they kill people.

There will be no wal in Israel, and Israelis will live in any part of Israel they decide to.

If there are terrorsits in soem of these places they will be killed.

Lots have tried to make places of the world were Jews were exiled ' free of jews' They have succedded largely in Europe and most arab countries were 800,000 jewish refugees fled to Israel when they were kicked on in 1948.

Sorry to say it wont happend in any part of Israel you deem be arab and therefore not worhy of jews.

This is why terroristm thrives because of dumbasses like you who agree with the terrorists.

As long as killing people is intellectually justiifed it will continue. Even that fact won't make towns villages or any part of Israel free of jews, dream on or move to Europe they dont have too many jews left there since WWII

Michael: I don't think that Surah and AG were saying that Jews had a moral obligation to leave the territories, they just believe that it is in Israel's best security interest to do so.

Even Netanyahu who does not believe in a Palestinain state, believes that Israel should:

1) defeat the infrastructure;

2) Expel Arafat;

3) Withdraw to a secure line which encompasses 80% of the settlements, and then build a wall.

Unless you are going to expell the non-Israeli arabs from "Area A" you have to deal with the security issues somehow. The status-quo is not working.

While I think that security-wise, expulsion is the best solution, Israel (even Netanyahu) would never do such a thing for fear of "world opinion." Bush has already given the "Palestinians" a state in his mind.

The argument is not whether those outside the 80% can stay, but, if they stay, they cannot be defensed.

- J Lichty -

Thats a weak and silly argument, you even quoted bush's stupid statement he said to appease the arab terrorists.

They are not withdrawing from anywhere inside of Israel that makes no sense. Do you undestand maps? Israel is not leaving any borders and not allwoing arab towns within Israels borders to be free of jews so they can plot terrorism against jews you get it now?

The borders at Jordan and Egypt are secured by lots of IDF forces. No one is going to leave or withdraw from any borders nor are the arab towns going to become free of jews and allowed to contnue terrorism.

The question is the terrorists strongholds and hotspots that are largely free of jews inside of Israel.

This concept at all is all based on arab terrorists statements when they kill jews their 'reason' the words you even use originated from terrorists who had just killed people.
Words like:

'settlement' 'occupied' 'illegal'

It all sounds nice but came from murderers anyone who repeats them are guilty of what the murders espouse.

There is just Israel after 1967, there are arab towns that are run by arabs and are hotbeds of terrorism, there happens to be some jews nearby that the arab terrorsits want to kill like the jews everywhere else in the world. You agreeing with their assumption means nothing and does not signify some 'reality' or 'security' thats comple bullshit your repeating from the murderers paid for by Oil you consume PR in the USA.

Aquisence to murders is not an option.

Goodness,

I simply cannot fathom a differing opinion being used against me in the insulting way Michael Glazer is using it.

For heaven's sake, you and I are on the same side (I think).

We all want a strong Israel that will not be questioned when the time comes to make peace or annihalate her neighbors.

The insults are demeaning and uncalled for.

It will become obvious to most people that the Palestinians do not want 2 states side by side. (I cannot fathom why that isn't obvious to most people already).

But what does that get Israel? Nothing.

It was obvious to most people in the 1960s, yet no one batted an eyelash at Arab terror directed against Israel for twenty years or at Arab ccalls and plans to annihilate Israel, massing of armies on her borders and numerous other provocations and acts of war. Only when Israel would fight back would the world move to stop the fire so the Arabs could fight again. So how would the realization that Arafat doesn't accept Israel after Israel unilaterally cedes land for nothing improve Israel's situation? It wouldn't. It would just be a bad precedent, like the already bad precedent of the manner in which they left Lebanon. Miraculously, a new land claim by Hizballah -- unrecognized by the UN -- mushroomed over night.

Also, bear in mind that aside from the security considerations that basically mean Israel cannot cede [i]all[/i] the land and that the relevant UN resolutions were formulated in language that recognizes this (something that is reality, but one which will remain unacceptable to the Palestinians), there is the issue of Jerusalem.

It's a nonstarter -- for both sides. Israel will never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never give up Jerusalem. As far as Israel is concerned -- and I hope I'm not going to be accused of employing mere rhetoric -- Jerusalem is like its own heart. You cannot and will not cut out your own heart, because you will die (a Jerusalemless Israel for 19 years was an aberration). Whatever support can be mustered among Israelis to cede Jerusalem for peace (and here we are talking about unilateral withdrawal in exchange for nothing at all, not even a promise) it will never be a majority.

So, the Arabs are going to accept this? Nooo. So how does the conflict end in anyone's eyes? How does Israel say to the world "they've got no more claims on us" when they do have further claims? And when Israel attacks the weak, nascent state of Palestine is the world going to be sympathetic towards Israel's move to defeat the world's newest li'l country that could?

Michael: I don't think that Surah and AG were saying that Jews had a moral obligation to leave the territories, they just believe that it is in Israel's best security interest to do so.

This is correct. I understand their position, I just disagree for the reason I spelled out.

Michael, for the love of God, can't you just learn to disagree with opinions which are reasonably expressed WITHOUT calling them moronic Arab dupes? Or saying that ANYONE who repeats them is "guilty of what the murders espouse"?

Is the concept of civilized discourse alien to you? Has it ever occurred to you that you MIGHT BE WRONG?

It's especially pathetic (read: revealing) that you attack people like us, who are substantively on the same side as you and want a strong, safe Israel. Gads, you give Zionism a bad, bad name.

Okay, enough mud-slinging. Why don't we ALL agree to be civil in our disagreements? Only trolls deserve to be insulted in the way you slime most people who disagree with you.

*sigh* We can't afford such stupid internal divisions.

Michael:

You are totally off base. You purport to attack "a weak and silly argument" that you don't even indentify. Then you go off on a rant about how I and others have accepted the reasons why the terrorists have attacked Jews.

To the contrary, neither I, nor anyone else in this thread have stated that Jews have no right to be Samaria or Judea, nor has anyone "accepted" the premise that the Palestinians actually want a homeland "next to Isreal" rather than "instead of Israel."

My comments, and the comments of others regarding the settlements was that unless you are going to transfer the non-Israeli Muslim population out of the so-called West Bank, you have to deal with the internal security problems.

The only two ways which from a practical sense seem to offer the best security is the Dick Armey plan (expulsion) and the Netanyahu plan (after a military dismantling of the terror infrastructure, eventual withdrawal to 80% of the existing settlements). I agree that Jews should not have to abandon any of them, and should not be attacked in the settlements, but wake up, they are being attacked, so how are YOU going to defend them? Lets hear your plan not just name calling.

Anyone who has consistently read my comments on this site knows that I am far from an appeaser. Take your Prozac and address the issue Michael.

- J Lichty, Jeff B -

What you say is not 'reasonable' in any relativists terms.

Do you think it is really reasonable to even discuss if jews can live in Israeli towns filled with mainly arabs?

No, it is not reasonable and im not the type who minces words or pretends to be a diplomat either.

You really need to hear my plan.

Well its not to brilliant and could have been doen thirty years ago or today for that matter

My plan is to destroy the terrorists infrastructure and kill all the terrorists no matter how long it takes. Not to back off until its 110% done. Start now and dont stop till its compeltely annihilated.

Thats it, no half-measures, diplomacy, no concessions just total destruction of terrorists, their supporters, infrastructure of at least those within Israeli borders of control.

It is incomprehensable to me to see the largest terrorsim base within Israel and against Israel. It blows my mind you woudl think their insane to let this go on, grow, and fester even oen mroe second.

You'll know its destroyed when you dont see any of them spouting off on the local nightly news from wtihin israel how they want to kill jewish babies and the 'reasons' why.

You dont negotiate with extortionaists, kidnappers, blackmailers, or terrorsits. You simply kill them whatever the cost ASAP.

Im America we arrest charities who purport to supprot terror in Israel they have terror bases on the nightly news that thrive for years. Somethings not being done right and the Israelis cant blame anyone but themselves for not getting thier own job done within their own bordes.

Do you think it is really reasonable to even discuss if jews can live in Israeli towns filled with mainly arabs?

If you accept that these non-Israeli muslims will not ever live in peace with Jews in Judea and Samaria, the question is not "CAN they live there?," to which we all agree is YES, but rather "SHOULD they live there?"

The answer for me becomes one of safety. If they can live there, and they should live there, how does the Israeli government insure that they LIVE?

I have put forth the 2 plans which I think best insure that they live. The Armey plan and the Netanyahu plan.

- j -

The Israeli government's most basic job just as is every other goverment is to protect its citizenry.

The first thign the need to do and havent doen in thiryt years is simply destroy terrorism inside of Israel.

How do you that you ask? You kill all terrrorists.

Who are they you ask again? They are all those that espouse that form of violence, those who help them, who actually do it, who work with them etc...

This is not brain surgey, simple police work. Stop the bleeding! kill the terrorists dont let them breed, get it done with.

Evryday they wait for an attack is pathetic. They need to be engaging the enemy and drive them out of Israel.

persoanlly both plans sound unrelaistc Armey's is a flight of fancy, woudl never happen, its a nice but unrealsitc dream. While relinquishing settlements and makign a smaller border, with walls is just plain silly.

They need to kill all the terrrorsits like I said at least within israel.

If the terrorsits in the USA were as obvious as they are in Israel the FBI here woudl be salivating to get the job doen and show us what they can do.

Israel has a much more obvious target within their jurisdiction than we do in America. They, unlike us, are jsut less anxious to go in and do the job already.

Michael, please. Switch to a decaf brand.

I myself tend to agree with Ben and James: the thinking that "If Israel does such-and-such, and the attacks continue, then surely *everyone* will see that there's murderous hatred here, not just desire for independence and a state, and so surely *everyone* will support Israel's doing whatever it has to do to defend itself" is unrealistic.

To put it more briefly, appealling to the world's conscience shouldn't be any part of the reason for Israel's strategic decisions. When it comes to Israel, most of the world doesn't seem to have a conscience. There's no point in compromising security in the hope that world opinion will be swayed.

A workable Israeli strategy has to acknowledge this and go on from there, to be based on doing the right thing and on making Israeli citizens secure. (I'm not sure what you do if those seem to conflict.)

This troll stands behind Glazer

What's a troll?

whew! i certainly expected people to disagree with me; even i see the absurdity in the idea that the world will finally see that Israel has been right all along re: Palestinians wanting to drive them into the sea. But the venom and meanness, well, it just makes people want to ignore you or think you're irrational and nuts, Mr. Glazer. But one question, how does Israel kill all the terrorists and their friends? Will that not take, like, forever? And what will become of the soul and spirit of the Israelis eventually, spending lifetimes seeking and killing people?
I know you'll really despise me now!!

- jeanne a e devoto -

I don't drink coffee it causes cancer.

Troll says nuke the Palestinians.

Allah and Muhammed prefer performing fellatio on camels than on each other cause they have odor problems

- Surah -

You and your arab buddies can go blow yourselves up.. oh I meant jump off a bridge but then theres no fun in killing yourself if you cant take some toddlers with you now is there?

Sir Han, Sir Han killed Robert Kennedy ask your parents why they named you that also im guessing you were born after 1968... am I right?

Skivosoo!

- Surah -

Go sign up with the.. Its either you or the camel.. hmm

"Taliban Singles Online"

[Link: www.xmlpitstop.com...]

- Source -> [Link: www.xmlpitstop.com...]

Wow! Glazer is really on a roll today. Must be the humidity.

Im a REAL Peacenik.

I want TRUE PEACE.

I also am aware that peace comes from teh barrel of a gun.

I am honest. I care about humanity, civility.

The only way to brign world peace, true peace is to impose positive values on these omngrols, barbarians, and savages.

Back to basics, 10 commandments,

1. Murder is bad etc....

Why did colonization start in the first place?

Ever hear of the Barbari coast and the muslim pirates who had to be subduded, killed, and their lands occupied by Thomas jefferson because they were pirates (better known as terrorsits of their day).

They impeded travel and commerce the roots of any civilization. They were stopped then they will be stopped now.

Wake and and see reality.

Their savages of the 21st century simpel as that no glamor just butcherers of innocence for no cause but to kill, the cause of murder, and enjoy the killing of babies, childern etc...

Face the facts and be strengthened by your acceptance of the reailty and your determination to crush them at every juncture in any form.

Lets get it ON!!!!!

- J Lichty -

Your goddam right i am and it is, were used to like 3 weeks of summer up here and thats it... we like the cold it keeps us on our toes, sharp.

- J Lichty -

I live up here in Michigan USA - Ted Nugent Country.

Kill 'em, 'n grill 'em!

Back to basics, 10 commandments,

1. Murder is bad etc....

...Your goddam right i am

Not to nitpick, but I'm pretty there's something in that "etc" about that. ;)

I think all of you are fuckin idiots to even waste your time talking about what should be done... Like your opinon is worth shit to anybody....Don't you have something better to do, well do ya troll???

AG-

"After this groundbreaking event, any bullet, bomb, suicide or conventional, molotov cocktail, etc., can be interpreted as an act of aggression by a State (Palestine).

Israel would then be obliged to say 'I told ya so' and demolish the Palestinians and send them fleeing into Jordan where they belong."

The premise that the existence of a Palestinian state will permit Israel to treat Palestinian aggression as acts of war is the best argument for Palestinian statehood that I have heard yet.

But do you really believe that this can ever happen?

Arafat's most successful strategy has been to use proxy organizations to attack Israel and then claim that he has no way to control those organizations.
Using Palestine as a proxy to attack Israel is the most successful strategy that the Islamic world has come up with to wage war against Israel.

These strategies can work for only one reason: The UN is recognized by the US and the rest of world as the legitimate representative of the human race. It is the UN that legitimized Palestinian terrorism. It is the UN that forbids Israel to take even the most primitive measures to defend itself. The UN has worked "hand in glove" with those who hate Israel.

Do you really believe that the UN (and the EU) will miraculously reverse itself and deprive the Islamic world of its greatest weapon simply because the Palestinians are allowed statehood?

I understand. We are all sick of this war. It is so tempting to believe that mankind's greatest hope for peace will somehow find the decency within itself to permit Israel this small concession. You are simply asking the UN to be reasonable.

Examine the behavior of the UN towards Israel. This is not a behavior motivated simply by an exaggerated concern for the Palestinians. It is motivated by hatred. This same hatred is very often directed at us.
And it is not motivated entirely by Islam.

No matter what concessions Israel makes, the UN will never relent in its effort to destroy it.

If the security of Israel can be enhanced by simply walling off Palestine, fine. Then they should do it.
But we all know that the attacks will continue.
Will Israel be permitted to defend itself by holding a Palestinian state responsible for those attacks?

Face it. That's a pipedream.

Whatever Israel does, it (and the US) must be prepared to face down the UN (and the EU).

PS: The best way to deal with trolls is ignore them.

Anyone who has not figured out that Glazer is either a covert idotarian trying to wreck discourse or a bonafide extra-chewy nutbar deserves to read his rantings. Every time you reply to one of his posts, you loose 3-10 minutes of your life you could have spent doing something more worthwhile, like taking an inventory of your pocket lint.

SoupIsGood Food

"Then, when Arafat et.al. continue to rage about Israeli 'occupation' or whatever, the gig is up. It will become obvious to most people that the Palestinians do not want 2 states side by side. (I cannot fathom why that isn't obvious to most people already).
"

Because they don't want to see it. I have various guesses for why (Lefty 3rd world romanticism, desire for oil, hatred of Jews) but they don't really matter. What matters is that there's already so much evidence that the Palestinians want only Israel's destruction that anyome who doesn't know it yet is INCAPABLE of being convinced by evidence. So there is no point in paying a huge price in yet another failed attempt to do so.

Israelis will never have "world opnion" on their side. They could all get on boats tomorrow and clear right out of the there, leaving a note for the Palestians saying "You win, take it all, hope you like your new country." And the next day the UN would pass a resolution condemning them as genocidal monsters because they didn't leave fruit baskets for the new tenants.

It's time for Israel to forget about world opinion and defend itself "by whatever means necessary."

- Ralph Phelan -

Right on!

Power to the people!

"The only two ways which from a practical sense seem to offer the best security is the Dick Armey plan (expulsion) and the Netanyahu plan (after a military dismantling of the terror infrastructure, eventual withdrawal to 80% of the existing settlements)."

In a way, those two plans are actually pretty similar. They both involve unilaterally ejecting Palestinians and building a wall. The only question is how *much* of the West Bank you eject them from.

- Ralph Phelan -

I actualy say dont eject them or transfer i say just kill all the terrorists (there not all terrorists right?), Israel should be one place there are no terrorists groups that can exists for more than a week.

There is nothing wrong with the vast majority of arabs which actually form the base of the Israeli labor force.

of course they cant becoem citizens either.

A realistic solution once the terrorism is defeatred, seen as futile, abadoned etc... will be a commonwealth style system such as native american reservations and or puetro rico.

In other words they do not get nationhood they are a commonweakth of Israel, they are not offcicial citizens though, they get monetray and infrastructure support from Israel, defense security etc... but they cant start a nuclear facility etc..

It is the terrorists, kill em all and the True Peace will come. Being embarassed to destroy terrorism via the culture of self-hate of Leftism in the West is why this palgue has lasted so long and actually leaded to mreo death and strife than was ever needed to get to the eventaull end result.

In an effort to move this dialog along . . .

Everyone in this forum seems to agree on the following:
1. Israel has a right to exist in peace and to defend itself from any attack.
2. That right encompasses the right of Jews to live anywhere within Israel, by which we mean all territory under Israel's control.
3. The Arab world seeks the destruction of Israel.
4. The majority of the world will always disavow proposition number 3, even in the face of direct factual evidence of its truth.
4a. The majority of the world will always fault Israel for acting in a manner consistent with proposition 3, even in the face of direct factual evidence of its truth.
5. It is incumbent upon Israel and those who support her to pursue whatever path maximizes the survival of Israel and its citizens.

The entire dialog here is about the best means to achieve point number 5. Robust dialog and disagreement on that point is valuable, but to suggest that anyone here is out to harm Israel is so preposterous as to make the person making that suggestion unworthy of serious consideration.

It is true, Israel must do what it must without weighing what the rest of the world will say because the rest of the world will always condemn Israel (well-said Mr. Phelan).
I guess I'll put down the pipe and stop dreaming.
Maybe Pakistan will solve everyone's problems.

The people that or of my countery just want the peace. Why do not the citizens of the Americas want to be my friend. I do not try to hurt anyone. You are talking to hurt my fellings.

The people that or of my countery just want the ded Jooz. Why do not the citizens of the Americas want to be my friend. I do not try to hurt anyone but Jooz. You are talking to hurt my fellings.

I do no unerstand.

Let me try to explain it to you, Yamad. The readers of this blog are enlightened and free-thinking. Those words may not translate readily into contemporary Arabic, but it basically means that they reach conclusions based on an examination of as much available objective evidence as possible, rather than based on rhetoric, lies, or facts selected for the sole purpose of reaching a particular conclusion.

The facts are that the Arab world has constantly launched wars against Israel, both before and after 1967; that the Arab world is filled with the most astonishing dehumanization of Jews and calls for their murder the world over; that the Arab world has failed to accept Israel's right to exist; and that the Arab world as a whole has refused even to respond in kind to Israel's many serious entreaties for peace.

In addition, the Arab world consists of a string of dictatorships in which the overwhelming bulk of resources is put to the exclusive use of enriching the dictators and incitement of their captive peoples to war against Israel. The resulting lack of education and investment in technology and other aspects of basic social infrastructure contribute to the emergence of a widespread Arab/Muslim ideology advocating the destruction of the Western world primarily because that world made wiser and more profitable choices about how to order society.

When the Arab world demonstrates a genuine interest in creating both domestic and international institutions which respect freedom of conscience, speech, and religion; equality of all individuals before the law; democratic political participation; and non-belligerent resolution of disputes; we will no longer have cause to speak the truths that you find offensive.

(Sorry, folks, I just had to get that off my chest).

ok, i see now.

Thank you

Troll alert.

Rob: I’m on to you. And you’re this close to being banned.

Ooh, goodie, a scandal. Do tell, Charles.

And a nod and a wink to Yamad, or the Yamad-impersonator.