Fucking barbarians.

Jewish blood is cheap.

Look into that face George Bush when you make your speech.

I feel even stronger on my new position....if the Pal "civilians" condone and/or support (directly or indirectly) this terrorism.....they should be targeted as combatants by the IDF! Damn Charles.....you made me put my own daughter in that picture!

I am a strong man who served in the undercover units in Gaza in the early to mid nineties.

I just got a massive lump in my throat.

Damn straight, Lichty.

Some time ago, strategist Martin Van Crevald said that if Israel didn't go full-bore into the territories -- meaning all-out war -- the state would be lost. I thought he was an alarmist. No more.

He was very clear about the implications. Tens of thousands of Palestinians would have to die, following which Israel would withdraw behind fortifications. His point was that only if the Palestinians were bloodied to the point of defeat would they terminate their war. Who knows? It hasn't worked too well in Chechnya. But Homa did the trick for Assad. And the IDF isn't the Russian army.

I do know this: Palestinian political culture is rancid, top to bottom. The Palestinians have proven conclusively that they don't deserve a state. They'll get one, but it has to come at a price so mind-boggingly high that will never -- never -- be tempted toward revanchism.

It hasn't worked too well in Chechnya.

Two words: Saudi Arabia.

The Saudis sent one of the world-famous "holy" men to stir up the religious fruitcakes, turning what was a simple rebellion into a jihad.

Remember, folks -- every damned time you trace the source of inspiration, funds, and justification, you end up with our "friends", the Saudis.

You can read about Gal Aizenman at
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Please read the article I just linked Gal’s name to. Her mother survived. The last thing she recalls before waking in an ambulance was crossing the street, holding her daughter’s hand.

She survived only because her mother absorbed most of the blast. Her daughter Gal was simply, in her words, “destroyed.”

Rest in Peace, Gal

Help me please. Could one of you knowledgable people please give a link to any White House e-mail address? I want to send a copy of this to my Senator, my Rep., and to the White House directly and ask them all, especially President Bush, if they want to reward the murderer's of this child what they want. Thank you.

Finney, I did the same.

W can be reached at:
president@whitehouse.gov

You can find your Representative's address at:
[Link: www.house.gov...]

and your Senators' address at:
[Link: www.senate.gov...]

This little girl should become the cause celibre (god I hate using french words) of the no-state movement, just like that little arab boy who was murdered by his own people became for the arabs.

Maybe what Israel should do is recruit a large number of evangelical Christians to move to Israel. Inevitably, one of them would be killed by an Arab terrorist.

Maybe Bush would care then.

We should be careful not to fall into the trap of considering innocent Israeli lives more valuable than innocent Palestinian lives. We should condemn Arafat no less for his policy of deliberately killing innocent Israelis than we should condemn him for forcing Israel to retaliate and unintentionally kill innocent Palestinians. He is just as much of a Palestinian killer as he is a Jew killer. We should hate him just as much for the former reason as we hate him for the latter.

Haggai -- you need not even go that far. Arafat does not just force Israeli retaliation; he has raised an entire generation to believe that the highest aspiration in life is to kill Jews, and has led many of them to willingly explode themselves in order to achieve that. Through his machinations, an entire generation has lost the capacity for humanity.

Having said that, vis-a-vis Israel these pitiful barbarians are quite undeniably the aggressor. A brainwashed murderer is a victim, but undoubtedly less so than the murdered.

Thank you for showing us a face of a victim. Too often we see only the body parts and the faces of the perps and their apologists.

I remain bewildered why Israel and the US expect anything to change with diplomacy. It won't.

Only the Palestinians kill little girls.

"Only the Palestinians kill little girls."

That, Cozumel, is a keeper.

Jonathan--you are correct about Arafat's cultural destruction of his own people. My point, on which I'm sure we are in agreement, is that some Palestinian baby girls who are just as cute and innocent as the Israeli girl in the above picture have died in this despicable war. The blood of little girls on both sides of the conflict is equally precious, and Arafat's responsibility for all of that blood, not just the Israeli blood, is what all civilized people should hate him for.

When I see something like that that picture it upsets my balance and all my views and opinions on the conflict disappear and are replaced with a rage that makes me say to the Israeli Government, forget the U.N., forget the E.U., forget the U.S., forget the Peaceniks in your own country, (if there are any left.) You are at War. Your enemy has declared a War, your enemy is fighting a War, and your enemy is winning that War. Despite your military being the best in the world, you are losing because you refuse to fight, because you refuse to be at War. You care more about the outside world’s opinion than you care about your own citizens. Does the rest of the world love you for it? You tiptoe through the battles you do fight, so as not to hurt anybody, lest you lose the “moral high ground.” (Do they love you for it?) Israel has survived through the wars it has fought. I am afraid it will not survive the one it won’t

...

The blood of little girls on both sides of the conflict is equally precious, and Arafat's responsibility for all of that blood, not just the Israeli blood, is what all civilized people should hate him for.

Don't worry. Most of us hate him for all the blood -- Israeli, Arab, and other -- he has spilled.

Never mind the Palestinians. when will the Israelis get it? The Israelis are their own worst enemy. So far, the response to the bombings has been pathetic. As an American, I would not risk one soldiers life in defending Israel. They won't defend themselves, why should we? If Israel is this stupid, perhaps they deserve to die. It's a hard thing to say...but it's true. I never thought I would see the day when Israel would not fight. A nation that will not fight will not survive long..and good riddance to weak states.

Wouldn't you just love to hear "W" say, "I'm fed up with the whole fucking mess. There's nothing the US can do to change a goddamn thing. Check back with us when the war is over"

And, then I'd like W to mention mushroom soup with Arab-ass croutons, but that is probably wishing for too much.

The difference between the arabs and the jews:
[Link: www.truepeace.org...]

When will we learn that we cannot with a people that condone and celebrate the intentional, deliberate murder of five year olds?

When will we learn to stop making excuses for a religion that teaches that killing a five year old in the name of said religion is the true way to paradise?

I put the faces of my 8 little grandchildren in that picture and my heart breaks for all the children of the world. What evil has been unleashed on all of us! The tragedy is, the majority of US citizens don't seem to get that we're next and it will be the faces of our children, too, unless this jihad is stopped soon. The rest of the Arab world has let Arafat do the dirty work for so long to see how much he could get away with and sadly, it's been way too much. Arafat needs to be silenced once and for all and I think Israel needs to send that bastard to his reward now. And world opinion be hanged. Israel has no friends anyway, so why care about what everyone thinks. Imprison all family members of suicide bombers and then let's see if they still cheer their brainwashed sons.

Being a good muslim is killing nonmuslims even with the loss of your own life instead of stayng alive and praying as a muslim

It is too easy to give in to that urge to strike back without restraint. I read an article in the J. Post today called "Back into the heart of darkness" featuring an interview with one of the guys who set up these bombings. It's linked on my blog. He said the pool of bombers is very deep.

The reference to The Heart of Darkness should be its own warning, because nobody should trade his humanity for vengeance.

That being said, I think a more thorough occupation and war against Lebanon and Syria may be the only answer.

Cold rage and revenge - but their options are limited by what they are. The Captain expresses it well - the entire "Palestinian" people must pay a price for each attack. And the price must become higher for every attack. No employment, education, medical assistance - nothing for any Arab from Israel. NOTHING! Destroy their homes and businesses, turn Jenin into rubble and drive them into Lebanon or Gaza. Grant thru Richmond, Sherman thru Georgia. Burn the earth beneath their feet.
Identify every attacker and turn their home area to dust; every camp or town that breeds one pays the price. Not genocide but destroy all they hold dear except their lives - let them live and wail.
Until they learn that they must pay this price, they will never stop.

AST-- the Israelis have shown 20 months of restraint. It didn't work. I don't think there is any way to undo the damage done to the young determined would-be "martyrs". I know there must be a good solution to the whole mess, but doubt that even Solomon could figure it out. I do know that the Israelis must defend themselves.

Is there no way to get the Palestinians to see that AraRat has been the true enemy all along?

I have no words. None. I just hope the poor little thing didn't feel any pain.

How many people have to die before these people realise that both sides are fighting for the same "god"? Apparently this "god" likes to bathe in blood.

Seeing the reaction of the Palestinian families after their son/daughter has reached martyrdom, I wonder -- when these children are born, or if the parents are looking into some maternity ward in a West Bank hospital, what are they thinking -- "Oh look at all the beautiful little bombs!" "Is that one yours? What a cute little bomb, she has your eyes," "I'll bet you'll be able to wrap a lot of explosives around him when he's older" -- I mean, what kind of midset do you have to have to think this way? These people are as delusional, and far more dangerous, than the 900 who drank the Kool-Aid down in Jonestown.

Haggai -- We are indeed in agreement. And Cozumel is still right.

How many people have to die before these people realise that both sides are fighting for the same "god"? Apparently this "god" likes to bathe in blood.

posted by D Kelley @ 6/20/2002 08:48PM PST
*******************************

No, D., their God may well be the same, but only one side is intent on making blood sacrifices to Him. And God Himself renounced the practice long ago-- remember the story about Abraham and Isaac?

The present-day Arab world is an honor-shame society, much like pre-1945 Japan. And just like Japan, it will have to be crushed, militarily and politically, in order to destroy that honor-shame mindset. The sooner we discredit (preferably destroy) the governments of Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia (among others), the sooner the slaughter of innocents will stop.

Hale

Once again, Charles, you have stunned the wind in my sails.

I think the last time I posted a comment here it was on that picture of the little Palestinian boy whose father dressed him up as an explosive for a rally in Germany. My gut reaction, then, was along the lines of "A people that does this must end."

I feel that way again.

Intellectually, rationally, I'm not that far from my base emotion, either. At the very least, I can rationally say that whatever individuals condone, celebrate, support, plan or execute deliberate attacks on little children should be annihilated.

As for states and cultures...

It's complicated, but it's becoming clearer.

The Palestinians like to say that the suicide bombers are their equivalent of "Israeli F-16s". Well, I think the Palestinians need to learn what an F-16 will a full ordinance load can do. Forget losing ground forces doing house to house searches - send in the heavy artillery and make the price for this type of abomination so high that it won't be repeated. If it is repeated, then go in harder and with more resolve.

This image is all the more striking after reading the interview with the mother of a Palestinian murder-bomber, which is currently posted at that enormously valuable website, memri.org.

The ideology we are faced with goes far beyond any notion of "just war", and beyond all previous rationales for armed struggle. It's the pure and simple worship of death; Blood for Blood's Sake. It can only be compared with the psychology of a Zodiac-style serial killer.

All negotiations will come to nothing ... far less than nothing. All talk of a Palestinian state is now meaningless, and the notion of the Palestinian Authority "reining in" terrorism is a joke in the worst possible taste.

And this is the evil the "not in our name" types would have us not fight.

You simply can not deal with rabid fanatics...Their twisted logic does not allow for any alternative to their illogical and unreasonable demands. They (Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Authority) must be eliminated and a true representative of the Palestine Arabs should be sought out to dialogue with.

A school report I wrote several months ago :

Killing Suicide Terror

For more than fifty years, the Jewish state of Israel has existed in a

sea of hate and violence. Numerous wars have erupted between it and its

Arab neighbors over the years, leading Israel to occupy the West Bank and

Gaza Strip in 1967 (Eurasia 25). On these occupied lands live the

Palestinian people, who are almost exclusively Arab Muslims. Violence

between the Palestinians and Israelis has been going on for decades, but

has taken a marked turn for the worse of late. Ever since the Palestinian

intifada, or uprising, began in September of 2000, the Palestinians have

been using the tactic of suicide bombing in an attempt to acheive their

political goals.

Suicide attacks are not new, but have occurred with increasing

frequency during the last year and a half. These attacks are usually

perpetrated by a young man, or sometimes a young woman, who has been

loaded up with explosives and nails. This young person then goes to a

place where a large number of Israeli civilians are located and then

detonates him- or herself. The nails or other metal scraps are present for

the sole purpose of acting as shrapnel to maim and kill as many people as

possible. The bomber’s parents then receive money from the Iraqi dictator

Saddam Hussein, and the bomber is declared a martyr by the Palestinian

leader Yasser Arafat.

Since this tactic has become more widely used by Palestinian

terrorists, many discouraging signs have been noticed. The death toll has

risen sharply, the Israeli economy and Israeli national morale have been

crushed, and the U.S.-led War on Terror has seemingly ground to a halt.

There is even the possibility that this particular brand of terrorism, if

successful at acheiving its ends, might be exported to other countries. For

all these reasons and more, Palestinian suicide terror must be defeated for

the sake of Israel and the rest of the world.

The loss of life in Israel due to suicide terror has been appallingly

high. In the month of March alone, 104 Israelis have been killed either in

suicide bombings or by Palestinian gunmen (Derfner 16). Considering that

Israel’s population is only about two percent of the U.S. population, this is

equivalent to about 5,000 deaths, or nearly two September 11th attacks.

And Israel has been dealing with this month after month. No nation can

possibly continue going about business as usual while its citizens are the

target of daily carnage on this scale.

The normally robust Israeli economy is in shambles. Tourism is

understandably down, since people of affluence from other parts of the

world rarely want to spend their vacation in a warzone. The economy has

also been hard-hit by the sharp decline in consumer spending. Again, this

is understandable since most of the terror bombings have occured in

shopping areas or eating places. Israelis are rightfully scared for their

safety and even their lives whenever they venture outside their homes.

Such does not make for a bullish economic climate.

Morale among the Israeli people is alarmingly low. Though a large

portion of its population consists of Jewish refugees from other parts of

the world, Israel is now experiencing net emigration; more people are

leaving than are arriving. Many are headed to the United States which,

even though still reeling from the worst terrorist attack in history, is a

considerably safer place to live than Israel at the present time.

International condemnation hasn’t helped the morale problem any.

With the exception of the United States, Israel is routinely denounced from

all corners of the globe. Its Arab neighbors threaten it, the European Union

talks of sanctions, and the United Nations passes resolutions in the

General Assembly that side with the Palestinian cause (Hanson). Israel, a

small nation with a small population, is almost completely alone in its

battle with fanatical terrorists.

As Israel fights, the rest of the world should be keenly interested in

what the eventual outcome will be. For if suicide terror succeeds in

defeating Israel and pushing the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea, then

surely crazed extremists will use this proven tactic against other

nations.

The United States has already become a target of suicide terror

with the airplane hijackings of September 11th. Because the U.S.

responded so forcefully to both those responsible and those that harbored

them, there is the possibility that some level of deterrence might have been

gained. But if Israel or the U.S. show any weakness in the face of this great

evil, then the perpetrators will likely ramp up their efforts. As Mortimer

Zuckerman writes, “[t]he only way to deal with this new phenomenon of

suicide bombers, and make it clear this will not work, is to go after them

before they get us.” (83). Attempts to make peace with those that dedicate

their lives to the slaughter of innocents will be worse than futile; they will

be counter-productive. Any such truces will be violated as soon as the

circumstances have changed and the advantage has swung to the terrorists

(Bodansky 278).

The United Kingdom has long been the target of terror from the

Irish Republican Army, but the IRA has never stooped to the level of

suicide bombing. If the Palestinians are successful against Israel, other

terrorists around the world will take notice. It is conceivable that the IRA

could one day follow in the footsteps of Yasser Arafat’s monsterous killers

in an attempt to finally acheive their political ends.

India also has been on the receiving end of terrorism over the years

from seperatists in Kashmir. These seperatists engage in terrorist activities

that have thus far not included suicide bombings. That could quickly

change if it appears that the Indian government can be brought to heel by

human explosives.

The suicide terrorists have been able to not only kill innocent Jews,

but to damage the U.S.-led War on Terror. Because of the polarizing effect

of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there is a strong pan-Arab sentiment

currently sweeping the Middle East. There has been some rapproachment

between Saudi Arabia and Iraq, which does not bode well for efforts by the

U.S. to be allowed to use Saudi bases to launch air strikes against Iraq in

the possible coming confrontation there.

The pandering of President Bush to the Arab street has not done

the war effort any favors either. By demanding that Israel refrain from

toppling Yasser Arafat from power, Bush has seemingly contradicted some

of his own previous statements. If terrorism is never justified, then there

can be no justification for allowing Arafat to remain any longer as the

Palestinian leader (Netanyahu). It was Arafat, after all, who recently

decided to try to bring down the Israeli government by intensifying terror

attacks on innocents (Halevi 16). The apparent double-standard being

afforded to the Palestinian terrorist leader was a crucial error by the

President.

The vile tactic of suicide terrorism must be defeated. It can be, if

only the civilized world will stand up to it wherever it appears. The

terrorist infrastructure must be destroyed completely. Without the tools

available to create weapons of mass-murder, deranged youths will be

unable to become martyrs. By relaxing the stranglehold that tyrants like

Arafat have on the media, there will be a free exchange of ideas that will

help open up the minds of dangerous fundamentalists. By pre-emptive

action, terrorists can be rooted out and crushed.

And it must be crushed, if there is to be any peace in Israel’s future,

or this world’s future. Suicide bombers have devastated Israel’s economy

and buried its morale, and it threatens to spread across the globe like a

plague. The righteous War on Terror has been temporarily knocked off-

track by this odious variety of murder. For the sake of the long-term

continuance of civilization as we know it, the world must speak clearly

with one voice and unswervingly act against the new breed of terror that

Yasser Arafat and his minions have unleashed onto this world.

Works Cited

Bodansky, Yossef. Bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War on America.

Roseville: Prima Publishing, 1999.

Derfner, Larry. “Striking Back.” U.S. News & World Report 8 Apr. 2002:

14-19.

Halevi, Yossi Klein. “Prisoner of War.” New Republic 18 Mar. 2002: 14-

16.

Hanson, Victor Davis. “The Democracy Factor.” National Review Online

10 Apr. 2002: 18 pars. 26 Apr. 2002

.

Netanyahu, Binyamin. “The motivating force behind terror is neither

desperation nor destitution - it’s hope.” Jewish World Review 11

Apr. 2002: 41 pars. 26 Apr. 2002

.

Eurasia. Map. Atlas of the World. United States: Rand McNally &

Company, 1995. 24-25.

Zuckerman, Mortimer. “Israel’s righteous fight.” U.S. News & World

Report 15 Apr. 2002: 83-84.

Islam - Religion of piece

As in a piece of a dead little Jewish , a dead christian, a dead humanist, a dead hindu, a dead secular muslim etc etc!

Bloody monsters!! Damned Muhammed and his damned Islam!!

My thoughts and Prayers go out to the Israeli people and nation.....

Devon Hill

A Gentile Zionist

How many people have to die before these people realise that both sides are fighting for the same "god"? Apparently this "god" likes to bathe in blood.

Fuck you, you worthless piece of shit.

Charles,

Your picture of gal will always be in my heart now.

Here I am... a 52 year old communications guy, always intrigued and deeply interested in your work at LGF, the unusual and differentiating mastery of the Kings English and the quality of thought and creativeness that implies...

And here I am tonite feeling wave after wave after wave after wave of profound grief for her....she's just like my daughter, a little angle too, and I know in a different place and time they would have been buddies.

Tommorrow there will be anger.

And later tommorrow, with what I can contribute professionally (a lot), I'll see if I can find a opportunity or other to help any Iraeli org involved in defense related, or a communications company, perhaps an Israeli chip maker...or perhaps help drum up business (good at that) and contacts for some volunteer org raising funds for a cause that contributes to the nation.

I decided to sign up, a couple of hours ago, but to find the words here...it's hard.

Eric

Israel Support Websites.
href="http://www.libi-fund.org.il/">libi-fund .org.il/
href="http://www.shopinisrael.com/">.shopinis rael.com
href="http://www.israelbonds.com/">israelbond s.com
href="http://www.us-israel.org/">us-israel.org
href="http://yahoodi.com/">yahoodi.com
href="http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/home.asp" >israel-mfa.gov.il
href="http://www.idf.il/">idf.il/
href="http://www.womeningreen.org">womeningre en.org
href="http://www.themakolet.com/">themakolet. com
href="[Link: christianactionforisrael.org">christianactionf orisrael.org...]

From the financial, to the grass roots, to the govermental, to the religious,
any others I missed?

Wow!!!, Michael Glazier...what a great launching point for me as well. Thank you, thank you so much...

Sad and horrendous, but nothing new under the sun. The first terrorist in history may well have been Amalek (see Deut. 25:17-19)

Zakhor et asher asa lekha Amalek ba-derekh be-tze'etekhem mi-mitzrayim:
asher qarekha ba-derekh va-yezanev bekha kol ha-necheshalim akhareikha
ve-ata ayef ve-yage`a ve-lo yare eloqim


My translation:
Remember what Amalek did to you on the way as you exited from Egypt: how he happened upon you on the way and attacked the weak in your rear (i.e. women, children, and the elderly), while you were weary and exhausted, and he feared not G-d.

Somebody who kills chess-playing grandpas, toddlers with their grandmothers, school kids on the way to work, and considers them all legitimate targets truly does not fear G-d.

I am deeply shaken. I can only see two truths in this trajedy. First, Israel needs and deserves secure borders. Second, no secure border is possible between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, or between Lebanon and Sinai.
A Palestinian state is an impossibility unless it rests over all of Israel. One side or the other must occupy all of this territory and expel or exterminate the other.
I can only say the Arab countries better start building camps.

Walk4Israel.com
[Link: www.walk4israel.com...]
Has started a campaign to show support and memorialize the victims of the latest 21 months of arab terrorism in Israel.

For a small donation you can get a customized memorial bracelet with the name of a terrorism victim in Israel.
[Link: www.walk4israel.com...]

The donations go to the:
Israel Emergency Solidarity Fund, 98 Cuttermill Rd., Suite 201N. Great Neck, NY 11021 info@walk4israel.com

The Arab culture which encourages the killing of its own children for the purpose of murdering other innocents, deserves no sympathy. They are simply barbarians. They must be confronted and defeaated... utterly crushed and defeated. Only then will the innocents of that culture have the chance to basic human dignity.

Michael, you missed these:

[Link: www.mideasttruth.com...]

[Link: israelactivism.com...]

[Link: www.palestinefacts.org...]

[Link: www.memri.org...]

[Link: www.gamla.org.il...]

...to name but a few.

A very sad picture indeed.

Unfortunately you only have to look at the comments J Lichty made above -

-----
Of course they Paleostinians will not get it.

If you confronted one of them they would simply say: what about our babies that are murdered by Israeli aggression?
-----

They show you the picture. Neither side can see the individual and personal damage being done because they are both so caught up in the circle of revenge and retaliation.

I fear it's just destined to go on and on, really.

Rest in peace.

Guys, check this out. From NME.com:

[Link: microsites.nme.com...]

Hey, I'm I music fan, but the site's "Angst" forum is more often than not full of bullshit. Check near the bottom.

I can't believe you're pulling this shit. it's so lame.

How dare u try and twist the truth and score points with this kind of emotional blackmail.

i'm sure that poor girl is turning in her grave at your self serving attempt to use her death for political gain.

leave her alone.

"The Palestinians will not get it."

Unfortunately, they get it all too well. The usual responses will be trotted out, most related to the "cycle of violence," calls for Israel to show restraint, and pleas to give the Palestinians their own state so that their desperate people, who supposedly have no alternatives, will cease performing these shocking but understandable deeds.

During Defensive Shield the Israelis uncovered and published an avalanche of documentation showing beyond any reasonable doubt that Arafat organizes, supports, and pays for much of the more repugnant Palestinian actions...and it has made no difference at all.

The Palestinians exploded, so to speak, on the international scene by hijackings, murders, and bloodying the Olympics--and far from provoking a wave of revulsion, they won sympathy and support. No matter what carnage they wreak, no matter what barbarity they commit, no matter what outrage they perpetrate, their cause is advanced.

Does anyone doubt that to the extent that to the extent that Gal Aizenman's picture makes it into the western media it will be juxtaposed with a picture of some Palestinian child caught in a cross-fire, accompanied by pious and sorrowful comment about a cycle of violence?

Nearly two years of vicious and depraved activitiy have resulted in calls by the U.S. government for a "provisional Palestinian state," whatever the hell that might be.

Exactly what is their motivation to stop murdering Jews?

Dear Disgusted,

It's simply the truth.

Deal with it.

Mr. Mist:

You did not understand the point of my post:

You failed to quote the next line:

They simply do not see any different between the deliberate murder of this little angel and the regrettable death of a child whom they have intentionally placed in harms way

I am not in the least bit advocating an equivilence between this little angel and a Palestinian child who is accidentally hit by gunfire or shrapnel because his people decide to use him as a human shield.

Your selective quoting makes me writhe.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. THERE IS NO CYCLE OF VIOLENCE.

If the Palestinians stopped killing there would be NO MORE KILLING.

The fact that you completely missed quoted my post out of context goes to show that you have your own agenda. So come up with your own damned quote.

NOTHING justifies the murder of this little girl. Get it. There is nothing on the Israeli side that is even comparable.

Every time I think I've got a grip on myself regarding this I get jarred out of my secure spot by something like this. There is no need for deep analysis of what is driving the Palestinian Culture of Death. I can sum it up in a single declarative statement:

Naked, unmitigated evil.

I'm going to explain part of what's going on.

I had thought people would understand more of the truth about the world after 9/11. Do you remember that for about a day, the truth that an entire generation of Ishmael's descendents had been raised to hate Judah, and anyone that supports Judah. Do you remember that?

And what do they tell young Ishmaelites that they hate Judah so much? Can you guess? It's nothing different than what's been said before to those who hate anyone who keeps the Sabbath; they tell them that Judah is stealing from them; the reason they live in failed backward countries is because Judah (and their godless supporters in the west) have stolen everthing from them.

But, now, our rhetoric has changed, hasn't it? Now we say they hate us because "we're free, and boy do they hate freedom." Why did we do that? But more importantly, why did everyone buy it?

I'll tell you why.

Humans have lazy minds, and we don't like to think. Understanding that this conflict has been going on since the Amalekites first raided ALL of Israel (not just Judah), would force us to sit down, and consider truths about religion, politics, ethics, and history that most human beings are not ready to accept into their day to day lives.

I'm going to explain part of what's going on:

I had thought people would understand more of the truth about the world after 9/11. Do you remember that for about a day, the truth that an entire generation of Ishmael's descendents had been raised to hate Judah, and anyone that supports Judah. Do you remember that?

And what do they tell young Ishmaelites that they hate Judah so much? It's nothing different than what's been said before to those who hate anyone who keeps the Sabbath; they tell them that Judah is stealing from them; the reason they live in failed backward countries is because Judah, and the West have stolen everthing from them.

But, now, our rhetoric has changed, hasn't it. Now we say they hate us because "we're free." Why did we do that? But more importantly, why did everyone buy it?

I'll tell you why.

Humans have lazy minds, and we don't like to think. Understanding that this conflict has been going on since the Amalekites first raided ALL of Israel (not just Judah), would force us to sit down, and consider truths about religion, politics, ethics, and history that most human beings are not ready to accept into their day to day lives.I'm going to explain part of what's going on:

I had thought people would understand more of the truth about the world after 9/11. Do you remember that for about a day, the truth that an entire generation of Ishmael's descendents had been raised to hate Judah, and anyone that supports Judah. Do you remember that?

And what do they tell young Ishmaelites that they hate Judah so much? It's nothing different than what's been said before to those who hate anyone who keeps the Sabbath; they tell them that Judah is stealing from them; the reason they live in failed backward countries is because Judah, and the West have stolen everthing from them.

But, now, our rhetoric has changed, hasn't it. Now we say they hate us because "we're free." Why did we do that? But more importantly, why did everyone buy it?

I'll tell you why. Here's what I'm explaining:

Humans have lazy minds, and we don't like to think. Understanding that this conflict has been going on since the Amalekites first raided ALL of Israel (not just Judah), would force us to sit down, and consider truths about religion, politics, ethics, and history that most human beings are not ready to accept into their day to day lives.

el fin

Whoa, how did that happen? Well, we learn through repetition?

Rich

I also have to say it was totally out of bounds to post an advertisement here, a place of grieving, and connection.

I've given a lot of thought since September to what I could do (a lot) to help, the nation, IDF, Voluteers for Israel, drum up giving, and what would best help with what time I have available.

I have a little girl who is a dead ringer for Gal, discovered here through Charles, compelling me to take action now.

Perhaps you can take your own work (hey, I'm in business too, it's cool) to a more appropriate place for the moment.

Thanks

Eric

(Non-Repetitive Version)
I'm going to explain part of what's going on.

I had thought people would understand more of the truth about the world after 9/11. Do you remember that for about a day, the truth that an entire generation of Ishmael's descendents had been raised to hate Judah, and anyone that supports Judah. Do you remember that?

And what do they tell young Ishmaelites that they hate Judah so much? Can you guess? It's nothing different than what's been said before to those who hate anyone who keeps the Sabbath; they tell them that Judah is stealing from them; the reason they live in failed backward countries is because Judah (and their godless supporters in the west) have stolen everthing from them.

But, now, our rhetoric has changed, hasn't it? Now we say they hate us because "we're free, and boy do they hate freedom." Why did we do that? But more importantly, why did everyone buy it?

I'll tell you why.

Humans have lazy minds, and we don't like to think. Understanding that this conflict has been going on since the Amalekites first raided ALL of Israel (not just Judah), would force us to sit down, and consider truths about religion, politics, ethics, and history that most human beings are not ready to accept into their day to day lives.

I wrote an e-mail to Steven Den Beste:

My two cents worth:

I think that the Israelis are on the right track by seizing Palestinian lands in response to terrorist acts, but I think that holding them is the wrong strategy. To do so requires them to either patrol the areas with IDF troops in the midst of a restive population, or else the expulsion of that population from the area, the strategy you mentioned a few days ago, making them homeless and a burden on their neighbors. In any case, this is a very expensive strategy for Israel, in terms of the manpower required to implement and maintain it.

A better strategy might be to select a certain area (or areas), cordon it off, announce that the area is "condemned" and that all Palestinians must leave the area within a given time or they will be killed. Then expel the Palestinians from that area (by force, if necessary) and then demolish every single building in the cordoned-off area; the only exceptions might be Christian holy sites or important Muslim mosques like the Dome
of the Rock in Jerusalem. Let Sharon take a page from his own playbook and bulldoze the buildings in the condemned area. However, high explosives or bombing by the Israeli air force would work just fine as well. The demolition should be televised across Israel and the Palestinian areas, to let the Palestinians see the fruits of their suicide bombers' actions. And then, when the area is nothing but rubble, the IDF can leave. No messy manpower-consuming occupation. No genocidal killing of innocent Palestinians, what few there might
be. And perhaps after a couple of demonstrations like that, the Palestinians would start to feel enough pain, as their areas are destroyed neighborhood by neighborhood, that they would be ready to stop the terrorism.

Last night, I saw one of the Israeli officials talking on TV, saying that they didn't want to target the Palestinian people. He has the wrong idea. The Palestinians need to be targeted, not with lethal force, but with the knowledge that the IDF might show up at THEIR houses, shops and mosques to flatten them as punishment
for the crimes of their sons, brothers and friends. When the Israelis went into Jenin, they made an effort to NOT destroy any private property unnecessarily. That needs to stop. The Palestinians need to be uncertain and afraid, not for their lives, but for their homes and their livelihoods.

Otherwise, sooner or later Israel may have to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and Gaza Strip and expel all of the Palestinians across their borders.

In response to J Lichty, I selectively quoted what I did above to make a point of my own, it was not intended to suggest that your view was anything other than what you said.

However, you in response choose to suggest that I have my own agenda. I don't know what that's supposed to mean but I will tell you straight out I have no agenda.

I care not one bit about either side in this conflict, I think they are both as bad as each other and if you can not see that both sides are responsible for continuing the cycle of violence *which definitely does exist* then you, sir (or madam), are as blind as the rest of them.

Violence simply has no place in the modern world, no matter what the supposed belief behind it.

That's a heart warming/wrenching picture. But abstracted from the inflammatory political and racial issues, the story is really no more horrifying than any other murder. Palestinian and Israeli conflict rivals abortion as a hot-button issue dominated by irrationality.

Violence simply has no place in the modern world, no matter what the supposed belief behind it.

Yeah, it's just wrong to use violence against the people who would kill children like Gal.

Sorry, I find your position disgusting. Violence isn't the first choice, but when it's a matter of using violence or seeing more children torn to shreds by a bomb, I'll chose the violence.

Yes, I'm perfectly aware innocent people will die in that violence. The difference, however, is intent. Palestinians rejoice over the death of children like Gal; the Israelis investigate and, when necessary, punish for the deaths of children.

That Gal aint pretty
She'll grow up bad
And it will be such a pity
She's a bad bad girl
Not yet, though
But when she turns fifty

So thank god some
Bozo
With a bomb belt
And too much No Doz
Flipped the trigger switch
Without a glitch
And blew up himself
And that little bitch

Rich JAPs
Have heart attacks
When they spot
Brown skinned buttheads
With bulging slacks
Bulging with nitroglycerin stacks
260 cadavers on refrigerated racks
And 900 blood splats in squalid
Settlement shacks
Who give's a [bigoted word]'s rat squirt
That game is older than
West Bank dirt

So you think it's perfectly acceptable for innocent people to die then?

Let me make another image for you. You place a palestinian child and an Israeli child in the same room, with some toys to share.

Now, assuming they've not already been preconditioned to hate each other, it's reasonable to assume that they would play together happily.

Why should one of them die and the other not?

There is no answer that I can think of that you could possibly give me to that question that would justify the loss of either of those child's lives.

That's why I say violence has no place.

Mr. Mist,

You can not wish violence away, no more than you could wish away the cycle of day and night. Violence is part of human nature and no new fangled philosophy will change that.

We can try to minimize the lives lost in conflicts, but that required the use of force, quicly and decisively. In order to have real world solution, we can't blind ourselves to real world implications of our actions.

when i see the picture of this beautiful little girl who was murdered along with her grandmother, and many others, i can only think about the wall to wall coverage of the arab boy, who with his father "on the way to look at a car" were caught in a cross fire. the father, instead of covering the boy curled up alone and his kid was shot and killed. the world, without a moment's hesitation, screamed about the jews committing genocide. naturally it was later learned that in fact it would have been impossible for the IDF troops to have been responsible for the killing of this kid, in fact all evidence points out the murder was done coldly and consciencely by the terrorist murderers, but why let the facts get in the way when we can just blame the jews.

but here we have a harmless, innocent girl, who was set upon by an arab murderer, a person set on doing his part in the genocide of the jewish people and the world yawns - after all, she was just a jew, living in a shitty little country, and probably would just grow up to oppress the poor innocent arabs.

if i had the money i would pay for a full page ad in the world's newspapers with her picture, before and after her murder, with the simple headline : Here are the zionist occupiers the arab world wants dead.

Spoogemonkey --

Thanks for your heartwarming defense of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Can we kill you too? I'd hate to find out what you'd become if you ever grew up.

A civil war general (sorry his name escapes me) had an appropiate response for what we should do to people that do this, "Kill em, Kill em all"

They killed me
They killed me
They blew me up
They danced in my blood pool
And drank wine from gold cups

With me dead and gone
Their task was completed
They could walk to the Mediterranean beach
Unimpeded

They're finally gone
So now what do we do
Swim out to Cyprus
And suicide bomb them too
Bomb the Syrians, the Lebanese
Or should we shift our economy
To making goat cheese

Better yet
Lets continue our good time
You strap on your belt
I'll strap on mine
Then we'll sit here and smell bad
Until one of us gets mad
And blow ourself up
And the rest of the world will be glad

- Mr Mist-

You pathetically have the European view of the world that makes the Europeans the weaker half of the west and why we Americans always need to bail you out from yourselves.

Mr Mist, if you could be the first european to no think so bizarelly maybe your continent can chnage from its weak willed history.

Having no courage, moral equivalence and no discertion are all weak charateristics that you should not be proud of.

Having a discriminationg taste and a strong set of values are good thing you appear to lack very strongly and sadly for your sake.

Just goes to show even straight people can be fairies (no offense to homsexuals) or just Euroweenies in not having the courage to take a stand on the obvious realities by distoritng it with intellectuall bullshitsm.

Intellectuall The only thing you are showing us Americans is what we have always suspected was true about you Euopeans.

So instead of influencing us you have actually reinforced our long standing beliefs of your continents inadequacies and weak willed lack of courage in fighting pure clear as day evils.

This is also why Americans are more productive than Europeans we don' mind tackling an issue instead of you who like to pass the buck and not confront reailty to find quicker resolution.

We don't take 2 hour lunches and two month summer vacations we like to find solutions be pro-active and help the world not ignore it.

That is why American is the most charitable country in the world the only country who wants to go to war to help others while every other country would rather ignore it and stay home and eat cheese.

Your words sounds like retardation (no offense to retards) you make yourself, your english country, and your continent look pathetically weak-willed and highly immoral at best.

With peopel like you it is no surprise that Americans take the lead in fighting for freedom and are thus the strongest most prosperous country.

You see one thing you lazy Europeans still don't get is that hard sacrifices bring big rewards a very un-socialsit view. Since you guys fucked up nationalism and we didn't you gusy are left poor and clueless, weak-willed, and lethargic sad for you but as Americans we hold you responsible and expect you to take care of yourselves and pick yourself up like a man and stop relying on others for sustenace.

From what you say it is clear how far gone your culture is compared to ours and why we are so much more successfull,prosperous than you can ever dream of.

EUROPEANS are the problem that allow facism to prosper and occur time and again.

ITs you EUROPEANS we will have to take care of eventually to stop this sort of insanity from so easily taking hold in the West.

Kill 'em and grill 'em

Every dam last one them dam A-rabs!

Bomb the A-rabs and take their oil!

'GIVE 'EM HELL BOYSS!!!!'

To whatever Palestinian praises this, I hope you get syphilis in your whorehouse heaven.

Please stop Michael, your self-righteous nonsense has me on the floor in hysterics.

Do you really believe all that you just reeled off, or was it an attempt at satire?

If you really do believe all that, then I'm not sure where to start in explaining how wrong you are. Still I can rest safe in the knowledge that you wouldn't give a damn anyway, because you seem so completely certain that what you just wrote there was the absolute truth I doubt I could even begin to change your mind.

If you represent the American people, then it's them I feel sorry for. You may have a big country, but if it's populated exclusively with people who hold that sort of self-important view, I certainly wouldn't be proud to live there.

Cheers for the amusing comment though. Class.

Mr. Mist --

Mist means "horseshit" in German.

Thank you for betraying both the bent (Nazi) and worth (sh*t) of your political leanings through your name.

The blood of little girls on both sides of the conflict is equally precious, and Arafat's responsibility for all of that blood, not just the Israeli blood, is what all civilized people should hate him for

Don't worry. Most of us hate him for all the blood -- Israeli, Arab, and other -- he has spilled. -- Robert Crawford

... but do we hate him enought to do something about him? So far the answer is no.

Ekg, it's the politics of a schoolboy to insult someone's name, you're hardly in any position to question my views.

I'll consider revising my political views when anyone can come up with a better stance against them than a personal or national insult.

Since none of the people on here seem capable of doing that, I think that my views are pretty sound for the time being.

Your views that violence has no place -- period is not sound as long as violence does exist. Violence can only be responded to with more force. If you do not defend yourself with force when attacked you will die. When all the bad guys have killed all the good guys because "violence has no place" what then?

As a messianic or utopian belief? Beautiful. As a real world, or better yet modern world principle? As yet, impossible.

I'm sorry sir, it was just too easy, and btw I'm a woman.

Interesting points there James. The argument falls over though because if someone blows himself up on bus killing innocent people, or some tanks "accidentally" fire on a market, it's very difficult to see how that act is one of defence.

For what it's worth I agree that there's no point standing there whilst someone throws bombs at you. But there's no point retaliating the next day either, because it will just cause the other side to come back later with bigger bombs.

Violence creates opportunities for growth and positive change. Just as forest fires bring about new growth, and the atom bomb made modern Japan possible, the Mid East conflict will the seminal event underlying a stunning new Utopian civilization.

Disgusted - An image is only an image. We may all draw our own truth from it. We pause, reflect, and think. A five year old was innocent. Now she is dead. Let that be your starting point - don't shoot the messenger.

Mr. Mist - Violence is a reality. A world free of violence is not. Which side celebrates an act of violence? which side reacts with restraint? Answer the questions. Get off the fence. There is no moral equivalence.

Spoogemonkey - your name says it all. Idiot.

Kill The Families of the bombers to deter future bombers.
A big motive for suicide bombers seems to be the money, fame and glory their family gets. Saddam most believe this and that is why he upped the money.

A possible method to deter future bombers would be to send a squad in to kill the adult family members of the suicide bombers (lets say five people) or perhaps just people in the family home. Israel would set up a covert squad labeled the Tel Aviv Martyr Killer Brigade (no reference to settlers who get unjustified bad press already) which would undertake these actions. Israel would not take credit for the actions but blame it on unknown people or this squad. Israel will announce that it is unable to catch these people. Israel will denounce these types of military operations and the killing of both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. After the first action, word might be leaked out that if the families of the bomber did not know about the bombing ahead of time, immediately denounces the action, turns over any money and turns over father, mother and adult brothers and sisters and spouse to Israeli authorities.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian targets and not attacked for their military value. So killing civilians is not unusual. It is also not against the laws of war or international law to kill civilians if the other side kills civilians first and if it is proportional.

Other possible actions:
Attacking the suicide bomber’s funeral (perhaps booby trapping the bomber’s body if there is enough left, and setting it off at the funeral).

Blowing up the family’s home and that of all relatives (or neighbors)

Random shelling of civilian Palestinians areas in response to the bombing.

Also, this is a war. Suicide Bombing is wrong and most people agree with that (although the Europeans like to justify it). And so what. The Palestinians have felt no real adverse effects from taking these immoral actions. Killing their civilians to deter them from killing Israeli civilians (and do not just say that it is immoral, tell me why it is), is not a matter of wrong or right because this terminology has no significance, no real impact. What has impact is getting your enemy to stop killing your people. If killing their civilians is the only way to stop the attacks then it must be done.

Pre-emptive striking.

Also, in many cases would be suicide bombers have been shot to death before they could detonate, both by police, military personell and civilians.

It's often said that the Palestinian suicide bombers can't be stopped because they "have no hope". They may have no hope, but these 18 year olds aren't bomb manufacturers, they don't know the streets of Israel, they don't have C-4 etc. There is a whole existing infastructure that recruits bombers, trains them, manufactures bombs etc. The Palestinian explosives experts can be killed. The bomb making materials and factories can be destroyed. The recruiters and trainers can be killed. There is a lot Israel can do to make suicide bombing impossible, or at least almost do away with them completely. So it's fallacious to say that force or violence can't stop violence.

I agree with you that there's no point in retaliating tit for tat. It's ineffective. Israel is practically being forced by the entire world to respond in such anemic fashion, only because the world actually wants Israel to do nothing at all and obviously they can't do nothing. People are hysterically screaming that there's no military option when Israel hasn't yet exercised the miltary option. The only thing proven is that bombing empty buildings and only killing some but not all terrorists doesn't work.

What is needed is what was done in April, only all over the territories. Kill the terrorists, destroy their weapons caches and factories and it needs to be done right now. Ultimately defeating your enemy ends the war and saves lives on both sides.

Mr Mist,

While I don't know you or the specificity of your views, let me make a generalization about some of the people who espouse a similar view-point to yours.

My view is that people who say that all violence is wrong typically mean that violence by Group A against Group B is wrong, but not vice versa.

Case in point is the pre-WWII Britain. Many of the "pacifists" were in fact German sympathizers. Some were true pacifists, but many fit this mold.

I think that in today's Europe (and again I don't know if you back current EU policy of financing terror) many who claim the mantle of "peace activist" are really Palestinian supporters. Or to be more precise -- Jew haters. I have seen very little outrage from the "peace camp" when Jews are killed as opposed to the Palestinians.

Now I don't mean to imply you fall into that camp, but it's hard for me to believe that grown adults believe that universal peace (like a workers' paradise) could be achieved. So when I hear people cry for "restraint" only after Jews die, I automatically question their true intentions.

That is the reason why I think you are getting so much flak on this site.

Jaz, I choose to sit on the fence, though it seems when you do so you get hit by rocks from both sides.

I absolutely will not come down in favour of any side in that conflict, because I think that both have taken part in equally rephrehensible acts for which there has been little justification.

Give me solid, fact based reasons to suggest why one side deserves support more than any other if you expect me to change that point of view.

Note that before you try to do that that saying "the other side killed people on our side" is not a solid reason.

Maybe one day they will have a breakthrough in communication, or otherwise they will destroy themselves. Good or bad luck to both sides, as appropriate.

Give me solid, fact based reasons to suggest why one side deserves support more than any other if you expect me to change that point of view.

Simple. The Palestinians initiated a war of terror against Israeli civilians after Israel agreed to create an independent Palestinian state and outlined the offer, supposedly what they were demanding.

You're probably right Eric.

I'm certainly not a Palestinian supporter, nor am I an Isreali supporter. I'm a supporter of progress, which I see very little of (over there so far away).

I wouldn't appeal for restraint from any particular side, because I know that it would only take a rogue activist to restart the killing and it would certainly be easy for the other side to take advantage of a lull.

Possibly a higher power needs to get in there and force the hand of both sides in the conflict. Who can say whether that would ultimately work?

Force what hand? The Palestinians said they wanted a state. Israel said "here's a state". The Palestinians said "no, we'd rather kill you instead".

So what can be done? They evidently don't want a state so much as they want to kill Jews. The cheeky Jews don't want to die so an enlightened Englishmen can have his utopia.

Mr Mist, you can't "force the hand" of a beleagured people (Israel) to stop defending itself when they're being murdered daily any more than I could force you not to defend yourself if you and your family were being picked off one by one. If the same thing was going on in your neighborhoods, in your country, with your friends and realtives being killed and your government didn't decalre war on the people who were wreaking havoc with your life you wouldn't find it acceptable.

Mr. Mist -

Violence quite obviously has a place in the modern world. The U.S. has it visited on us on a regular basis, and Israel receives it almost daily.

Since the Palestinians are completely uninterested in a peace that does not include the extermination of the jews, we cannot reason with them. Reasoning with the Palestinians would be as effective as trying to negotiate with a rabid dog. The only response to Palestinian violence that has so far been effective is... drum roll, please... more violence.

If every offered peace were not greeted with the slaughter of additional innocents by the Palestinians, then perhaps violence would not be the answer. Since the Palestinians behave exactly like rabid dogs, it seems logical to me to treat them as such, and shoot them.

And if you would find it acceptable, shame on you.

Some people like to sit on the fence because it's easier to take potshots at both sides from up there. That, plus it keeps you from having to defend a position.

One of many reasons to side with Israel is that if Palestinians (and their supporters) stopped killing Israelis, the killing would stop, PERIOD.

As for what would happen if this sweet little child were put in the same room with a Palestinian child, only one would view the other as a human being.

Jews="apes and pigs"

Islam is a religion that is in disagreement with itself. TheQur'an says that the Bible(What Jews use and Christians call the Old Testament) is eternal and unchangeable (Yunus 10:64) and the Bible is the Word of God (Bakara 2:53) This was based on the Bible at the time of Muhammad. Now we are told that the Bible has been changed. If it has been changed, it must have been since the time of Muhammad! Otherwise, the Qur'an proves itself to be a lie. And since we know that the Bible has not been changed since the time of Muhammad, the Qur'an is not the truth. And thus, all actions by anyone declaring it is done in the name of Allah of the Qur'an, is also lying. I think that it is important to understand what the Qur'an actually says, not what people think it says. Muhammad himself stated that he was NOT a prophet. I could go on for many pages, but it is not necessary as we should really look at the heart and mind, which gives us the reason why.

i find it stunning that someone can "be sitting on a fence" when the facts on the ground show clearly that one side (israel) has done nothing but seek peace in the worst of circumstances and the other side (the arabs) believe that 48, 56, 67, 73 and so on were flukes and with just a little more help they can finally rid the world of its one jewish state in order to make the 22 (or is it the 23) arab mobocracy on the shores of the med sea. anyone who can open up a world map and see that israel consists of less then 1/2% of the land mass of the arab world and think well if israel was just to give up 1/2 of that 1/2 percent then all the killing will stop is either dumb, willfully blind or delusional. IMHO i think israel should remove every jew from the gaza, and transfer every arab in the west bank there - then declare that is the new pally state - take it or leave it. after all there has never been a palestine nation in the history of the world, "palestineans" have no distinct or unique culture, language, religion or customs to set them apart from the other some 500 million arabs in the world so i would think that this is more then incredibly generous.

and i agree spoogemonkey is a jackass and a troll

The nursery school intellectuals
So secure in their beliefs
Rambled on about violence
Politics, and peace

In their tiny tot forum
Of freedom of speech
They clawed at eachother
And howled
And screeched

I think its this way
No you think its that
You don't think like I do
You dithering prat

They're a bunch of brats
With blinders on
And heads full of shat
Quibbling and niggling
Then giggling
And patting themselves on the back

Of course not. I'd hope that it wouldn't be allowed to get to that stage of course.

I wasn't suggesting, by the way, that only one side should be forced to back down. If any hands were forced, it would of course have to apply to both sides, otherwise it would be pointless. You couldn't, for example, insist that no more Israeli tanks are used without also insisting that no more Palestinians blow up shopping centres.

Yes, of course when I suggest that violence has no place I'm coming form an ideological point of view, it's difficult to see how such a thing could ever be achieved when as you suggest a side is handed what they want and people still choose to take part in random acts of attrocity.

However, it's also just as easy as that is difficult to see that the current situation works for neither side and that as things are now, everyone is losing out.

Hence why my original statement came about that there's just a continual cycle of violence. Yes, I can see that an Israeli will want to defend his land and his people, but I can also project that the next day, after that is done, a silly palestinian will believe that the best thing he can do is go and blow up a few more Israelis. Ho-hum.

"How many people have to die before these people realise that both sides are fighting for the same "god"? Apparently this "god" likes to bathe in blood."

Fuck you, you worthless piece of shit.

posted by James @ 6/20/2002 10:34PM PST

***************

James, thanks for demonstrating to everyone the very reason for the whole damn thing, and contributing something invaluable to intellectual progress while you're at it.

Dammit, I saw ME in that picture.

Mr Mist - For fact based reasons, turn on the t.v. and note which side celebrates the death of innocents.

Are both sides reprehensible? Show me the jews who target civilians. Show me footage of jews celebrating the deaths of Arab children.

Willful blindness does not equate with moral superiority. Further, appeasement doesn't work.

Stephen, a religion is ultimately what its members make of it. It doesn't matter so much what the literal text of holy books say as how it's interpreted by the believers.

Watch what they do.

Mist--
The short answer to your challenge -- and one that's been recited but perhaps obscured above -- is intent and goals.

Name the last time Israelis intentionally killed Palestinian children, and then rejoiced over or justified it in the name of religion?

While Israel has very regrettably caused the death of some Palestinian children, Israel and its supporters feel exactly that -- genuine regret. Those deaths have not been targetted or intentional, and you cannot summon any facts to the contrary.

The Palestinians, however, are now engaged in an unremitting campaign of targetted murder of women and children. When they succeed -- when they look at Charles's photo and caption at the top of this page -- they celebrate. They have raised an entire generation to believe that the the highest cultural and religious value is the massacre of Jews.

Your failure to recognize this basic distinction is what inspires people like Glazer to go off the reservation in attacking you.

Again, war invariably leads to the death of innocents, and each and every one of those deaths is tragic. But in some instances, war and its concomitant deaths are necessary to prevent an even greater loss of life. Witness America's intervention in WWII.

The facts are that two years ago Israel offered the Palestinians a sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital. The response has been the continued murder of the likes of Gal Aizenman. As a Palestinian organization confirmed in a poll reported last week by the AP, a majority of Palestians view the objective of their fight as not "liberation from occupation", but destruction of Israel.

In order to prevent that result -- in order to prevent another extermination of millions of Jews -- Israel must fight. Innocent Palestinians will die, and that will be tragic. But if you are suggesting that Israel must roll over and be exterminated because the Palestinians refuse to make peace, there really is little room for rational dialogue with you.

There is stronger and stronger evidence that every Palestinian is your or my or every child's potential murderer. That holds true even IF you are a Palestinian.

Has anyone ever attempted to rationalize genocide?

Mist, while I was composing my last response to you, you posted the following:

"Yes, of course when I suggest that violence has no place I'm coming form an ideological point of view, it's difficult to see how such a thing could ever be achieved when as you suggest a side is handed what they want and people still choose to take part in random acts of attrocity.

However, it's also just as easy as that is difficult to see that the current situation works for neither side and that as things are now, everyone is losing out.

Hence why my original statement came about that there's just a continual cycle of violence. Yes, I can see that an Israeli will want to defend his land and his people, but I can also project that the next day, after that is done, a silly palestinian will believe that the best thing he can do is go and blow up a few more Israelis. Ho-hum. "

Why are you ducking what several people have pointed to: that Israel offered the Palestinians what they claim they want, but the Palestinians keep making war? Doesn't that really end this discussion? What could more conclusively prove which side is the peacemaker and which the warmonger?

Mr. Mist

-- I appreciate your position.

But I hope you understand that "forcing hands" would involve a massive regional war. Perhaps that is best.

I have a theory about human nature and war. Wars are a necessary and they must be fought decisively and early. That's because victory is dictated not by the military victor (although that's very vital), but by who can make their opponent lose the will to fight first.

I think that FDR was right to demand unconditional surrender in WWII. This made sure that by the time of victory, both the major powers (Germany and Japan) lost any will to fight and were willing to submit to any demands of the victors. This was a major concession -- although US and UK acted magnanimously, think the Red Army's pillaging. And that is the key to victory.

Compare that to the confusing end of WWI -- the Germans still believed that they could have won the whole thing. They still had the will to fight. It took poor economic conditions and a charismatic leader to get them back in the game.

Now, after WWII, and unconditional surrender, the Germans and the Japanese (both very martial societies before the war) transformed themselves into military midgets -- physically and philosophically.

Now to the Middle East -- the Israelis have won every war, but are yet to demand or to be allowed to demand unconditional surrender. This state of affairs where neither side has yet lost the will to fight is sure cause more bloodshed. What is needed is a decisive victory, both militarily and politically.

Maybe that will prevent a WW4.

Sorry if this was long and confusing, but I was trying to give you the gist of my theory.

yesterday 50 palestinean "intellectuals" (oxymoron?) penned a letter to an arab paper calling for the end of suicide bombings (i prefer to call it willful genocide - whatever). oh was i shocked!! have the good pallies finally seen that murder of civilians is wrong? the killing of children is horrific? that the koran specifically calls this an abomination? no. of course not. these intellectuals are against suicide bombings because they are afraid it might engender sorrow for the jews in the world opinion. that's it. perfectly fine, nothing wrong with blowing up school children on a school bus EXCEPT that the europeans in their shitty little countries might at some black tie affair might utter "sad about the jew school kids being blown up, eh? why yes i would love a little more port"

there are dozens of peace groups in israel with left wing papers that would make lenin blush. when the PLO has a peace rally wake me up. these two groups of people: the israelis and the arabs are diametrically opposed - one loves life, growth and tolerance the other is stuck in a backwards culture that worships death, intolerance and misery.

sit on your fence - it's so much easier to spit on those who take a position (whether right or wrong) when your nose is in the air and your spine is supported by a beam

From a purely utilitarian perspective, the decisive war strategy has an obvious outcome. Obliteration of the Palestinian people and state. It is the less expensive option monetarily, and the Israeli are well equipped to carry it out. The rest of the Arab world doesn't seem to care enough to actually do anything. So the repercussions would probably not be that great. And it could be sugarcoated with appeasements to the remaining quasi hostile states.

From a purely utilitarian perspective, the decisive war strategy has an obvious outcome. Obliteration of the Palestinian people and state.

I see what you're saying. Let's do the math...

...at the rate of 1500 Palestinians every 20 months, why it'll only take 3333 years to obliterate the 3,000,000 Palestinians!

Yes, you really have cracked the Israeli mind you devious thing you. ;)

Eric - yes, perhaps a decisive conflict is needed in order that *some* resolution might be reached, rather than the continual tit-for-tat skirmishes and such that occur now.

Pretty much everyone - yes, it certainly seems as though the Palestinians celebrate the death more than the Israelis. This still does not counter the fact that the agression on each side causes the agression on the other side. Eventually you just get a situation where the violence happens because the other violence happened, the original meanings if there were any become lost.

Jonathan - I'm not ducking any issues. It's obvious from the responses that the Palestinian intent for agression is the more apparent. However, at least to me, it is equally obvious that Isreal does not quash this intent through the use of force, at least to the extent that has been shown thus far. I believe Eric's comment covers that as well as anything I could say.

No, silly, not kill every one of them. "People" and "state" refer to the unified political entity. Probably 99% of the Palestinians are docile enough that obliteration of the violent organized elements will leave a mass of people ready to live like normal people with families and jobs.

And that would be a bad thing?

To add to that, I think what the Israelis would need to accept is that it could be that you wont see the clear end to Palestinian agression. You only have to look at Northern Ireland for an example of how things play out. In Northern Ireland there is peace, but you still get the occasional act of terroist violence. You don't have a total peace. But the difference there is that in Northern Ireland the individual factions involved talked about it for long enough so that the now sporadic acts of terrorism don't set everything back to square one. That's what Israel / Palestine need to sort out if they're ever going to move on.

Or maybe Russia and the U.S. should gang up and obliterate Israel, so there's nothing left to fight about. The Palestinian's couldn't hope to do it on their own, not even with 3,000,000 screaming, musket wielding zealots.

How depressing. I am neither American, Jewish, or Arab... and all I can do is sigh at how incredibly stupid you all sound. Rightly or wrongly, the Palestinians are obviously using violence against what they see as violent oppression.

Isn't it patently obvious after decades of fighting and retaliations that more violence isn't any sort of solution?

"Demand full surrender"
"Bomb the A-rabs" ??

Come on people... have we learnt nothing in all these centuries of conflict??? How can Jewish people... of all races... promote genocide? Has any conflict ever been solved by genocide??

Charles, this is a good thing to do. I hope you do it more often. May I suggest a family portrait of the mother and four children murdered by a gunman yesterday? (Shooting children must be SO much more gratifying than blowing them up, you actually get to see them die)

To add to that, I think what the Israelis would need to accept is that it could be that you wont see the clear end to Palestinian agression. You only have to look at Northern Ireland for an example of how things play out. In Northern Ireland there is peace, but you still get the occasional act of terroist violence. You don't have a total peace. But the difference there is that in Northern Ireland the individual factions involved talked about it for long enough so that the now sporadic acts of terrorism don't set everything back to square one. That's what Israel / Palestine need to sort out if they're ever going to move on.

The situation you've described existed before the Oslo Trojan Horse Accords. It sucked to have a couple hundred citizens killed over two decades but it sucks even more to have 500 killed in a year and a half. It's the dialogue that brought about this escalation. The very first suicide bombing in Israel happened within months after the Oslo Trojan was signed.

Genocide is not effective, but state-i-cide is effective. You don't need to kill all of the people to eliminate the nationalist threat. The Palestinian organization seems to be somewhere between al quaeda and a conventional state. Either can be targeted and eliminated. So I propose that all out war against the Palestinians is a sensible medium term solution.

Technically speaking Bruce I think that if all the people on one side of an argument are wiped out then you could catagorically state that that conflict had been solved.

Of course over in the real world you're right. Genocide would solve nothing, on either side. You could wipe out the people but you wouldn't fix the problems.

An issue that I don't think is being adequately addressed in this forum is safe martyr sex. The earlier comment about syphilis in the martyr's whorehouse heaven illustrates it nicely. Barring the illegality of suicide bombing to achieve sex with 70 virgins, it would be wise for the WHO to intervene and distribute condoms to would be martyrs. While the 70 virgins don't pose a substantial threat of disease propagation, the martyr's likely have a questionable sexual history and should be quarantined, or at the least, encouraged to wear a condom.

The argument is a red herring. The Israelis will not commit genocide and the Palestinians can't commit genocide.

Not every military defeat is "genocide". Usually they are simply "defeats". Israel can, should and probably eventually will defeat the Palestinians in war. It will not be "genocide". It will be victory, like any military victory in history.

Mr Mist

There are 2 wrinkles to my argument.

1. There is a lack of political will outside Israel for Israel to take such decisive action. This is too bad since I think many lives would be saved.

2. There is even less political will to deal with the outside sources of agitaion. All those Arab countries who look at Palestinians as pawns in their geo-political game must be crushed. This means Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran (non-arab member). They are egging the Palestininas on into a fight where they do not endangfer their own lives. Their will to get others to fight must also be crushed. I'm not sure has the conventional strength to take on all those opponenets.

That poor darling.

Israel should do two things immediately.

First: Hang Arafat in public & leave him there until his remains fall apart. His subordinates should be hanged in a long, long line with him.

Second: Israel should ccupy the area called Palestine and declare it to be a 50-year protectorate. I'd bet that within a decade, Palestinians would vote 75-25 to merge with Israel and to become Israeli citizens.

Eric - Outside support is the wider issue, for sure. You can bet that it's serving the interests of many nations for the conflict to continue as is (so long as it remains contained in that area.)

Bruce--
If I'm not mistaken, there is only a single poster who has alluded to genocide here, and his post is decidedly not representative of the rest of the commentary.

Most people posting are plagued by the question of what can be done to achieve peace, in the face of the Palestinian rejection of a two-state solution and its astonishingly rapid development of a blood-cult society.

To ignore this and assert that "we all" are talking about genocide would be silly were it not so insulting.

The Palestinian militants are like blind men masturbating in a rectory. They don't know that people are watching their every move because of the silence. But when Mossad makes its final move, the circle jerk will be completely finished.

The argument that the Israelis will commit genocide reeks of prejudice. Israelis have had decade of opportunity to do that, and yet the Palestinina population has grown several hundred percent since 1948.

My long term plan for the region is something akin to the end of WWII. Complete surrender by the nations I listed. Followed by occupation (by US and selected Allies) and a Marshall Plan (financed by oil receipts). Simple.

Scott, Israel can't have an additional 3,000,000 Arab citizens since it must remain:

1) A Jewish State
2) A democracy

These necessitate a permanent Jewish majority.

So Mr. Mist, you've got the forum. Instead of simply condemming our positions, how about presenting your solution to the conflict. I'd appreciate it if you'd address the following issues in your plan.

1: Given that you oppose all forms of violence, how will you deal with violence committed by either side? A prime example being the continuing Hizbollah attacks from Lebanon after Israel withdrew. If your solution is not able to stop the Hizbollah attacks from Lebanon now (without the use or threat of force) then it won't be worth much. Remember, Israel was supposed to get a stop to the attacks in return for withdrawiing from Lebanon.

(btw: just curious, did the Lebanese give up jew-hatred once Israel withdrew? If not, what assurance is there that the Palestinians would if Israel agreed to a state and renounced violence?)

2: Assuming Arafat has no control over Hamas and Islamic Jihad, etc, if they continue attacks after your agreement, how will you stop them?

3: The PA has systematically violated the Oslo accords from day one. What assurance does Israel have that they will follow and new agreements? Should the PA violate any agreement, how do you propose to punish them and bring them into compliance?

4: In a final agreement, how are you going to deal with the jew- hatred that has been instilled into the Palestinian population? Will you agreement have any provision for ending the incitement, or would you view it as alright for the PA to sponsor continued incitement?

5: How would you ensure that any Palestinian state would not become a basing point for terrorist attacks?

Do you have any solutions, or are you just here as a critic?

And should you argue that it's unecessary for Israel to be a Jewish State, I'll argue that it's unecessary for America to be an American State.

I think spoogemonkey and mr mist need to get a life. It must be nice to live in lalaland, but here in the real world, just spouting "peace and love" and throwing flowers doesn't get us anywhere. There are savages out there who don't give a rat's *ss about fair play (and I'm not talking about the Israelis.) the Israelis have turned the other cheek and shown more restraint than a lot of us Christiians would have in the same circumstances I am totally supportive of any military action they need to take now. That's the only hope for the Israelis and the upcoming Palestinian children. This insanity has to be stopped now and if talking could do it, it would already be stopped, but unfortunately, only force will work at this stage. And that's just a cold, hard fact.

Genocide is unrealistic because it is impossible (barring systematic nuclear obliteration). Therefore, it is merely a political word with implicit conclusions, and not an actual practice. A good analogy is the corporate merger. You have to kick out management and fire disgruntled employees of the acquired firm. The political version of this is overwhelming military strength. Like any solution, it is not perfect, but for practical purposes, it works. Look at Athens, Sparta, Rome, and any other world class power for examples.

"Genocide" is no more a political word than "love" is. What will you call real genocide now that you've defined genocide down to mean diddley squat?

Note that before you try to do that that saying "the other side killed people on our side" is not a solid reason.

So, to take that statement to the logical conclusion, all murderers should be freed from prison, as you've invalidated murder as an offense.

Why do I have a feeling that given any reason to support Israel over the Palestinians, you'll amend your conditions to exclude the reasons you are presented with?

By the way, the word "genocide" is deliberately invoked regarding Israel (merely a political word, as you have it) to soften the fact that Jews real victims of a real genocide. But I bet you know that. ;)

Bruce says--

"Demand full surrender"
"Bomb the A-rabs" ??

Come on people... have we learnt nothing in all these centuries of conflict??? How can Jewish people... of all races... promote genocide? Has any conflict ever been solved by genocide??

--------------------------------------------------

judaism is not a race - it is a religion. that being said, the israeli's are not calling to bomb the A-rabs , but what we have learned in the previous conflicts is that to have total peace you need total victory, anything less (korea, all of the israeli/arab wars, paki/india, most of africa, vietnam, persian gulf and so on) results in a festering cancer. so while i for one don't think israel should wipe out all of the arabs, they do need to beat them in a war (which is what the PLO declared when they walked out of the tabas talks) totally and completely.

scott says Second: Israel should ccupy the area called Palestine and declare it to be a 50-year protectorate. I'd bet that within a decade, Palestinians would vote 75-25 to merge with Israel and to become Israeli citizens.

--------------------------------------------------

if they did that they israel in about 10 yrs would be a muslim state - israel was founded on the ideals of having a national home for jews - that is how it should remain - the muslims have dozens of other land to do something with, let israel determine who should be an israeli.

Genocide is just a concept, like cold fusion. It doesn't work. Hitler tried and failed. Genocide is like an ad hominem argument. Emotive, yes. But the logic remains. To attack the logic underlying Palestinian terror is to completely destroy the state.

I see. To kill millions of people in a systematic attempt to exterminate the group is genocide and to attack the logic underlying Palestinian terror is genocide.

No, to attempt to kill all of the Palestinian people is to attempt genocide, but as was pointed out earlier, it is numerically impossible given current resources. And it doesn't get to the underlying problem. To destroy the Palestinian state is to attack the organized basis for the terror. Yes, it would leave a chaotic, leaderless mass of people, but then the shift to humanitarian efforts would take precedence, rather than destruction. A process that, even if unsuccessful, is a positive good merely in the attempt.

If Israel really wants to protect its civilians from murder, it should arm and equip a Palestinian army that it can engage in conventional warfare in defined battlefields, and manage the conflict as a cost of doing business.

None of these assholes, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis, understand that Warfare is for combatants, not civilians.

Guerrilla Warfare for the Palestinians and General Warfare for the Israelis. The difference is not the organization of your military machine but what you do with it.

There has never, I repeat NEVER, been a positive public opinion of killing civilians (ironic eh?). If you have a problem with someone take it to them, not their constituents.

The Palestinian problem is that they blow up the only Israelis that support their cause. Blow up the Israeli government!

The Israeli problem is that they want this stupidity to continue so they can proceed with their colonization of the West Bank. Gorw up!

Why am I wasting my time with this bunch of tools anyways...

Who is safe from a Palestinian?

If the answer is "no one," why is their existence tolerated?

Will a Palestinian please step forward and declare who is safe from their insanity?

Will the real Slim Shady please stand up?

One of Andrew Sullivan's readers came up with a new term: Islamikaze.

I like it better than 'not-so-smart-bomb'.

I love when trolls come on this site and ask the supposed rhetorical question of why they are wasting their time.

If it is such a waste of time for you to write it, imagine what a waste of time it is for us reading it.

Mr. T go call someone who cares using 1-800-C-o-l-l-e-c-t .

mr t - you sir are an idiot. you have not an idea of what you are referring to. but just for giggles let's take a look at you idiocy:

None of these assholes, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis, understand that Warfare is for combatants, not civilians.

israel does not target civilans; the PLO almost exclusively targets civilians. moreover, the PLO sets up their terror factories in arab neighborhoods in the hopes that the morally superior (yep, that's what i said, morally superior) jews won't attack - but if they do all that much better because the PLO cares not for the jews or their fellow brothers - they are in it for the power, money and respect.

Guerrilla Warfare for the Palestinians and General Warfare for the Israelis. The difference is not the organization of your military machine but what you do with it.

i have no idea what you mean by this and i doubt you do either. next.

There has never, I repeat NEVER, been a positive public opinion of killing civilians (ironic eh?). If you have a problem with someone take it to them, not their constituents.

The Palestinian problem is that they blow up the only Israelis that support their cause. Blow up the Israeli government!

the pallys (as has been pointed out ad nauseum) have been offered statehood, many many many times. so go right ahead and support more terror but i guess now to a better target in your eyes. how does one go about blowing up a government? i'm sorry but on 9/11 wasn't that what OBL and his ilk trying to do to the US? thus i suppose you support terrorism against america. i mean we are in saudi arabia; we do support israel; we are multi-cultural and have freedom of religion? right?

The Israeli problem is that they want this stupidity to continue so they can proceed with their colonization of the West Bank. Gorw up!

yep, they want to colonize the west bank. actually if israel wanted to colonize egypt, lebanon, syria, jordan and other near by nations they could do so at any time. but in fact they are non-colonistic - they have given back 90% of land taken in fighting defensive wars against sworn enemies for the hope of peace. but why should the facts get in the way of your idiotic, ramblings?

mr t - you are an idiot - you have no idea of what truth is - and you should try to educate yourself before you post garbage, unless it's on some teen romance chat room site.

Banana Counting Monkey wrote -

Why do I have a feeling that given any reason to support Israel over the Palestinians, you'll amend your conditions to exclude the reasons you are presented with?

Well, probably because you've gone and assumed what my position is. If you'd actually bothered to read my comments properly instead of (as it appears) having picked on a single bit of what I've said and jumped on it, then you would have noticed that I've been quite willing to accept all the reasonable arguments that have been put forward. It's your loss if you can't see that, not mine.

So, to take that statement to the logical conclusion, all murderers should be freed from prison, as you've invalidated murder as an offense.

How is this in any way the logical conclusion of what I wrote? It's a nonsense extrapolation.

To answer your other post, I'm not here to suggest solutions. I see little in the way of solutions coming from elsewhere, and fail to see why I should be the only one who has to put them forward. I would like progress, I'd like to see the killing end on both sides. Other people than me will suggest how.

Kathyn - I have a life thanks, I don't need another one as this one is quite enough to deal with. I would respect your point of view more if you didn't feel the need to throw personal insults along with it.

No matter what the situation or surrounding politics, it is heartbreaking to see a child suffer. May God caress their souls so sweetly and tenderly that they forget the horrors to which they were exposed. Actually, may he do the same for all of us.

I'm tired of all the clever names for these psychopaths: Islamikaze, splodydopes, etc. How about something simple like "Deranged Baby-Killers?" "There was another deranged baby-killing in Jerusalem today, news at 11..."

The bias against homosexuals is strongly indicated by the Palestinian martyr recruitment methods. While there is ample documentation of the offering of heterosexual-virgin inducements, there are no recorded instances of same-sex lovemaking in heaven offered as an inducement. Just another way that the Palestinian militants demonstrate their backwardness in a progressive global economy.

Bruce and Mr. Mist, what do you propose as a solution?

The current taking and holding of increasing ammounts of land as terrorist attacks continue is the most realistic solution I have seen thus far in that the Palestinians may find that the gain from the attacks is not worth the price.

I am of the belief that the suicide bombings are inspired not by despair, but by hope and the belief that they are advancing their cause. The intentional targeting of innocents must not be rewarded.

Mr. Mist is obviously a brit, or at least a subject of the queen. His references to "schoolboys" and other English phrases give it away.

It should surprise no-one that he then takes the classic British "even-handedness" of Straw, Cherie Blair and Clark to this situation.

Misty: you poms would be eating sauerbraten rather than fish and chips if not for Churchill. He didn't appease dictators like his predecessor and England survived its finest hour.

One side reads torah, the other side reads mein kamph;
One side offered a state to the other, the other tries to destroy the state of the the offeror;
One side celebrates the murderers of children, the other side investigates its accidental killers of children;
One side tortures those who disagree with its policies, the other side allows them to serve as Foreign Minister;
One side refused the blood of Jews to save their own worthless hides, the other side in response flew in Arab blood from Jordan;
One side went for over a month without any "retaliation," the other side can't go a day; one side targets little children, the other side brings them to their country for medical treatment; One side teaches their children that Jews are apes and pigs; the other side teaches their children how to read, write and play;
but oh, Misty, I forgot, one side are religious fanatics who could kill you too if they don't get what we want, the other side is "those people" whose blood has always been cheap on the enlightened continent.

Misty: it is time to choose a side

Further Misty, if you are truly interested in facts, there are many readers here who would be happy to assist you in educating your self by recommending some excellent source material.

I would suggest off hand that you read Mitchell Bard's "Facts and Myths, a guide to the Arab-israeli conflict as a start"

You can even read it online at: [Link: www.us-israel.org...]

However, if you are not serious about getting the facts, I suggest you go sit on a fence post, literally, because when you take no position against evil, evil wins.

There is an old anecdote that someone who did nothing when the Nazi's came to power.

First, they came for the Jews and I did nothing;
Next, they came for the homosexuals and I did nothing;
then they came for the gypsies and I did nothing;
Then, they came for me . . .

Where will you be my English friend, when they come for you?

Thanks for the link, I will take a look.

You seem desparate for me to take a side for some reason. I'd have thought it obvious that I'm not going to side with a unit that considers suicide bombing acceptable. The only issue is whether there's enough weight to the Israeli side of the argument to suggest that it's better to side with them rather than adopt a neutral stance (which is, incidentally, to side with Israel de facto.)

Yes, it's a tragedy. Just like the 30 year Israeli occupation of Palestine. And how many Palestinian children, just as appealing and pretty as this one, have died because of it? If my land was taken and my home destroyed - God's death - my revenge would be unending too. Until Israel does what the UN has consistently demanded, this nightmare will go on and on and on.

Craig, are you talking about the UN that said the entire concept of Israel's existence was racist? The one that organized last September's Durban conference, the most orgiastic exercise in anti-semitism since the end of WWII?

In any event, I'm curious to hear what you believe the UN has demanded of Israel.

Misty:

While I generally don't care if you or other Europeans take a side, in fact I wish they would just sit down and shut up. Why is it that so-called European neutrality always leads to more dead Jews?

Unfortunately the way one does not "take a side" speaks volumes.

To loudly proclaim that both sides are bad, as one commenter said above actually speaks volumes and is in essence an acceptance of the barbaric acts. Both sides in this equation are not equal.

If you really don't want to take a side, demand that your tax money not go to the PA, do not offer them refuge in your country. In short, butt out.

Until your (and I am referring to European) nuetrality does not have the effect of providing support for my (and your) enemies, it is not neutrality, only appeasement.

Because you question whether the Israeli argument has enough weight, I suggest that you do read the Myths and Facts. I am not sure what specifically lacks weight, and perhaps that might help you isolate what specifically the "weight" is.

When I first saw this picture and then read about the mother and her three children blown away by a murdering bastard, I was reminded about the nazis who routinely used Jewish children for target practice by throwing then into the air and then shooting them or running them through with bayonets. We should stop using the word terrorist to describe these animals and call then montrous Nazis. A suicide bombing should be called a Nazi atrocity. rather than a suicide bombing. Only this kind of rhetoric comes close.

I think Craig is talking about the occupation that Arafat could have ended no less than two years ago at Camp David, but decided he decided that he would much rather kill the Jews instead. Similarly, Israel offered to give the land back shortly after the 6-day war in exchange for recognition, but the Arabs leaders at Khartoum said no. Don't blame Israel for the Arab world's crimes against their own people.

To be honest Lichty your attitude disappoints me. I've never once come down against you and yet your choice is to treat me as an enemy.

It seems to me that whatever conflicts you may be involved in are causing you to treat everyone with more contempt than they actually deserve.

I'd prefer that my tax money doesn't support any foreign wars to be honest, but I have no power to stop the government that has been fairly elected by the people from spending it however they see fit. That doesn't make me a bad person, or a supporter of your enemy.

Still, if that's what you want to believe, good luck to you.

Ummm....

The PLO has stolen the money given to it by the EU and the USA and used it to buy guns and bombs to blow up its own people in the hopes of taking Jews along with them.

Just like Iraq, there would be no "famine" (I don't believe it really exists in Iraq anyway) if the government gave a rat's ass about its own people.

Oh I forgot. It's always the Jews' or America's fault.

I'll go comply with a UN resolution now and commit suicide.

By the way, go look at the demographics of West Bank Arabs killed vs Israelis killed. You'll find that over 90% of the dead Arabs are men between 18 and 40. Just what you'd expect if you were hunting down murderers. Now look at the Israelis killed....You'll find about half are women, over 10% are children, about 10-20% are elderly....just the kind of numbers you'd see if someone were targeting random civilians.

So, now we've gotten rid of the myth of the dead Arab children. Now lets look at "taking away your land and home."

Gee, millions of Germans were ejected from lands that had been German for a millenium after WWII. (Pommern, Danzig, Prussia, Silesia, Sudetenland). I don't see much "unending revenge" from the Germans. We probably would though if after the war, they were led by a thugocracy and the UN were administering permanent "refugee camps" just across the Elbe.

In wars, the losing side usually loses land and people get moved. Tough.

Mr. Mist:

Talk doesn't work with these people. Talk and concessions led to more violence, which lessened only while the IDF was actively fighting.

Your analogy to the IRA is invalid because the IRA's stated goals include kicking the British out of Northern Ireland, rather than the utter destruction of Great Britain itself. The Palestinians don't want the Israelis out of the West Bank, they want the destruction of Israel itself. And they make no distinction between "Israelis" and "Jews". Read their own writings. Look at the destruction of synagogues and attacks on Jews outside of Israel (been to France recently?)

And if you can't see the difference between a child killed by crossfire and a child shot in her bed deliberately, then you are truly pathetic.

Craig, that "30 year occupation" is bullshit and you know it. If it was only 30 years, why were the Arabs trying to kill Jews before that? The occupation was in response to war started by Arabs, and the Israelis have already proven that they give back land in exchange for peace. What happens to Arabs that make peace? Sadat found out. So did those "collaborators" lynched in the past few months.

Misty:

I do not perceive you as my enemy, I perceive European "neutrality" in the face of barbarity to be disengenious. In fact I think it is quite clear in my post above that I am speaking in general about European "neutrality."

As I said before, you joined this discussion, so you obviously have an opinion, and sometimes the way you express your non-opinion is the same as expressing that opinion.

Rather than attacking you I was trying to get you to identify why it is you do not have a position.

I don't see anything in my post that would indicate that I am treating you as an enemy, in fact I identify our common enemy that I fear my friend you do not see.

I do also think that your position is really an enemy of the western way of life and attitudes like that will be the downfall of the west.

Charles:

Is this a record number of comments for one post even minus the spoogetroll?

Yes, it is a record, but it doesn't bring me any joy.

Amy, thank you for your very intelligent comments. I think your approach is right on the money. Call it "tough love" for the Palestinians. It just might work.

The question is, how do you get peace with people like the Palestinians - who have no state, or tribe, or anything at all that seems to be capable of speaking for them or binding them to any agreement, and who seem to be descending into intractable barbarism?

I've felt for a while that we are going to have to kill a lot of people and destroy a lot of cities if we want to win this war, and it bothers me that we don't seem to be mobilizing to do so. I see nothing to suggest that we are planning to raise an army, or that we are building more planes & tanks & ships & bomBs & missles. I would be happy to see some indirect evidence of such things, like a little bit of censorship of the news. But there seems to be nothing.

Frankly, I think that if the Arabs see the US starting to draft an army, they might find a way to settle the Palestinian problem in a manner that suits the Israelis. And I also think that until we start mobilizing, the Arabs are not going to think we are serious. And I say Arabs because they are at the heart of the problem. If we deal with the Arabs, the rest of Islam will settle down.

BTW, that guy Mist, & Spoogemonkey - why take either one seriously? They both seem to be rather foolish people, and nothing is going to change their minds about anything unless and until they are personally affected, at which point they will take counsel with themselves and conclude that they can rely on the rest us to protect them. A nice little draft might disabuse them of such notions.

Anyway, we need a war leader, & I am not sure that we have one yet. You would think that the Democrats would seize the opportunity to become the war party, since the Republicans seem to be dithering around. But maybe the partly that gave us Al Gore is incapable of anything better. I see no Roosevelt, or Lincoln, or Washington. Heck, I don't even see a Polk or a Wilson. Where's Reagan when we need him?

I have a question. Can anyone come up with any solution not involving the total destruction of Israel that would satisfy the Islamic militants who control Hamas, Hesballah, and other bombing supporters? Or can anyone name any concession Israel could make or could have made that would stop the fanatics from seeking "martyrdom"?
There is no solution. Either Israel is prepared to defend itself forever or it dies. All else is detail

Problem is, in this conflict, pacifists ARE the enemy.

See, one of the unfortunate problems with peaceful revolution is that it only works against people who respect human rights. Mahatma Ghandi managed to make real social progress because, however bad the Brits were, they still respected people who sought peace and who refused to fight back.

However, pacifism does NOT work against an opponent who respects neither peace nor human rights. Mahatma Ghandi was assassinated by Hindus who wanted war rather than peace, and his nonviolent movement was quickly marginalized thereafter. He essentially threw off the British yoke in favor of a Hindu extremist one, and the result has been a series of bloody wars and terrorist actions between Muslims and Hindus in the area ever since.

Pacifism, like communism, is one of those ideas that looks perfect on paper, but falls apart in practice. In theory, it should be the logical goal of all democracies... peace and prosperity for all, working together for a brighter future, everyone being excellent to each other, and so on. Pacifist nations, however, are inherently vulnerable to attack by people who are unwilling to respect non-violence (of which there are always at least enough to form a second nation from). The inevitable result is that any nation that turns to pacifism will be destroyed by external or internal conquest, and the conquering power will by its very nature not respect human rights at all.

In short, pacifism is a tool that can only be used to destroy democracies and create dictatorships from their ashes.

No muslims, Know Peace.

I dont support killing children but if u want to understand what has pushed people into doing these things you should realise that every day palestinian mothers have to deal with the fact there children have been killed by Isreali soldiers.

Here is a picture of an Isreali soldier handing a palestinian baby back to its mother after shooting its head off:

[Link: www.ummah.com...]

In some Jewish land grabbing operations, Isrealis have been known to kill upwards of 2000 people in just one week. It is only natual that a group of people who have to deal with this kind of persecution day in day out feel the need for revenge.

Take a moment to checl this victims also:

[Link: www.wizardsofaz.com...]

This "Controversial@liv4now.co.uk" is using the picture of an Israeli child killed in a Palestinian bus bombing to paint the Israelis as murderers.

Talk about blood libels.

Judging from the given e-address, we may be dealing with one of the British based Islamist extremists we keep reading about.

Go to the honestreporting.com website for a similar example of turnspeak. A picture of a bloody young man next to an israeli soldier has long been trumpeted as a palestinian who was beaten by the soldier, but it was really a Jew who had been beaten by Palestinians, and was rescued by the soldiers.

There are no depths to which the Goerbbles propganda machine will not stoop.

There is an old saying in the legal profession.

When you don't have the facts, argue the law. When you don't have the law, argue the facts.

The Arabs have taken that a step further.

When you don't have either, LIE!

The "mother" in the picture that "Controversial@liv4now.co.uk" is pointing us to has very large masculine hands, a green outfit that is the same color as the fatigues worn by the Israeli soldier (amazing coincidence), and what appears to be a medical personnel arm band. I guess this is a new form of defense for the Palestinian women - dress like you belong to the IDF medical team. How clever...

Of course, no Palestinian childrens' pictures have been posted here...for political correctedness of course. Add up the numbers friends. Seems it's quite the rage nowadays to hate the brown-skinned peoples of the world, and while we protest stridently against perpetrators of hate, our own rabble-rousing anti-Arab sentiments are encouraged to the nth degree. All I ask is that we all try to look at the whole scheme of things, in a thinking and not visceral manner. That's all I have to say. Thank you.

Harmon wrote -

BTW, that guy Mist, & Spoogemonkey - why take either one seriously? They both seem to be rather foolish people, and nothing is going to change their minds about anything unless and until they are personally affected, at which point they will take counsel with themselves and conclude that they can rely on the rest us to protect them. A nice little draft might disabuse them of such notions.

Well, cheers Harmon for lumping me in with Spoogemonkey, an obvious troll.

It seems to me that you're another like the person who's been randomly insulting me in comments on my own website who doesn't bother to read what I write, just prejudges, probably based on the opinion I'm pro-palestine, which I've stated quite a few times now that I'm not.

You call me a foolish person, and yet your own suggestions are simply more warmongering nonsense. Raise a big army and build more tanks. Oh yes, there's a sensible solution, I don't think.

You suggest that nothing is likely to change my mind, and yet you fail to notice how my position has changed even in the course of these few comments.

You suggest that I need to be more personally involved, and then say that you'd like to see more censorship of the news. Gee I wonder how likely it is that I'd become more involved if I were to hear nothing more of events? Not very, methinks.

Oh well. Each to their own.

Mist, you seem to think that you can stand on the sidelines, and draw neat little distinctions as if what's going on in the Middle East is some kind of problem in ethical thinking for an exam or term paper. That's why I think you are foolish.

J. Finney wrote: "I feel even stronger on my new position....if the Pal "civilians" condone and/or support (directly or indirectly) this terrorism.....they should be targeted as combatants by the IDF!"

Well, they deserve it, the adults, anyway, but targeting civilians is playing right in to the terrorists' hands. It's what they want us to do, so that they can fully radicalize not only the Palestinians, but all of Islam. Right now, we are not at war with Islam, & it's a good idea to keep it that way.

On an earlier post when I first stated this new view I said that I was totally opposed of the targeting of civilians by military forces. And for the most part, I still agree.

But, let's say that the US went into Baghdad and ended up killing an innocent 5 year old little angel. Not only would you see very grand apologies but you would also see inquiries into how and why this child was killed. If there was any illegal action taken, then the guilty parties would be punished. Also, the citizens of this country, for the most part, would feel total sympathy for the family of said child but would also be angry and want to see Justice be performed on those responsible, even if they are our own troops.

As far as the Pals go.....I don't live in Israel and don't know any Pals that currently live in Israel or the PA territories.....but even the American Pals I know even subscribe in part to the same belief, "they're not innocent, they're Jews."

My point is that how can you reason with people like this? While I'm not saying total genocide is in order, I do believe that a good level of collateral damage would serve a good purpose in this case.

Look how strong Germany and Japan became after the US committed a large collateral damage to those countries.

You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.

Killing 5 million pals won't bring back Gal H'dy. The pals thrive on death and suffering whether it is Israelis or their own. The only solution is complete separation. And that doesn't mean a fence.

Mr. Mist:

Can you tell me why you are on this board in the first place?

People are in pain over the death of this little girl. A little sensitivity on your part would go a long way.

Stop antagonizing everyone and go to some other website.

Stop being spiteful.

The same goes to Spoogemonkey.

To the rest of the people on this board, stop responding to these two boneheads.

Hopefully they'll go away.

brown-skinned peoples of the world

Cry me a river. Many Jews are brown-skinned too, and they're being slaughtered by other "brown-skinned people".

It should surprise no-one that he then takes the classic British "even-handedness" of Straw, Cherie Blair and Clark to this situation.
Cherie Blair (actually Cherie Booth) isnt a politician, she is a QC, a Queens Counsel, so nothing to do with British politics.

First, they came for the Jews and I did nothing;
Next, they came for the homosexuals and I did nothing;
then they came for the gypsies and I did nothing;
Then, they came for me . . .
And just where were the Americans while Germany was killing millions of innocent people?

Oh, thats right, at the other side of the world, nice and safe.

The US never wants to know about other countries problems until it directly effects them, either through direct attack (Pearl Habour/WTC) or financially (Kuwait oil reserves).

Stop being so self righteous.

Mr Mist - For fact based reasons, turn on the t.v. and note which side celebrates the death of innocents.

Man, does how TV represents events make that the 'real deal' now? There's an agenda they're putting across, and they're so good at doing it, that they can make you believe what they're saying without questioning it.

Face it - you don't know what's truly going on if you're only paying attention to other people's viewpoints on TV and websites and in the newspapers.

So until you have some first hand experience - one which hasn't been tainted by others who may not represent each side of the equation fairly - keep your eyes open wider and don't take in any information without questioning if you're being told the whole story.

Zulubaby wrote -

Mr. Mist:

Can you tell me why you are on this board in the first place?

Yes, someone pointed out the URL, and I thought I would add my opinion to those that had already commented. I didn't realise at the time that the place was full of gung-ho Americans and fanatical pro-Israelis that squirm when someone doesn't quite have the exact same opinion that they do.

Just because I'm not a fanatical pro-Israeli like some of you, doesn't mean I support Palastinian suicide bombers. If you just sit and think about a neutral position for a while you will realise that it's more a stance of supporting the Israeli side, as they have the superiority.

People are in pain over the death of this little girl. A little sensitivity on your part would go a long way.

I've never been insensitive.

Stop antagonizing everyone and go to some other website.

I'm not antagonizing people. I'm presenting my own point of view that you guys and girls seems to vehemently disagree with. I'm afraid I can't help that. As for going to some other website, well, gee, maybe I should then you could all be happy in your nice comfortable place again with noone questioning any of your opinions. How nice that would be for you?

I find it so ironic that it takes a "soft" European to stir up a bit of a debate on here. Heh.

Stop being spiteful.

Please indicate where I have been spiteful.

The same goes to Spoogemonkey.

To the rest of the people on this board, stop responding to these two boneheads.

Hopefully they'll go away.

Well, you can hope.

Mr. Mist

Now that you've realized that "the place is full of gung-ho Americans and fanatical pro-Israelis", again I ask, what are you doing on this website? You are obviously disdainful of "gung-ho Americans and fanatical pro-Israelis", so why do you continue to respond? I'm wondering what you're so smug about. Is it that you sit on the fence so you can judge both the Palestinians and the Jews, or just that you’re one of those people who like to argue for the sake of it? You are obviously enjoying yourself enormously. No wonder you won't leave this board.

Regarding you comment, "Just because I'm not a fanatical pro-Israeli like some of you...”
You have no idea who I am, or what I am fanatical about, so please refrain from making judgements about me. What gives you the idea that I am a fanatic? For the record, I would rather be accused of being "gung-ho" or "fanatical” than be so insipid as to not have an opinion either way. At least I have the guts to stand for something.

Your entire attitude is insensitive and spiteful, and don't be coy, you are just thrilled that you've antagonized people. Your response to my posting does make me think that maybe you don’t understand how insensitive you’re being. If you would care to go back and read the story that this particular board was responding to, perhaps you will understand why I feel you’re being insensitive. This may be sport to you, and I’m glad you’re enjoying yourself, but a lot of people are genuinely upset about this little girl. For whatever reason, her death in particular has touched an enormous amount of people. This is not the venue for the point you’re trying to make.

I would argue that most people who read websites such as this one actually do consider different perspectives, on their own, without your coming in to "stir up a bit of a debate". Oooh, you clever little money. Imagine that, you stirred up a debate!

Heh.
Stop being spiteful.
Please indicate where I have been spiteful.

The pleasure you take in upsetting others, that is what makes you spiteful.

a "soft" European - You said it baby! Out of curiosity, were you referring to your backbone or…what?

Mr. Mist

Now that you've realized that "the place is full of gung-ho Americans and fanatical pro-Israelis", again I ask, what are you doing on this website? You are obviously disdainful of "gung-ho Americans and fanatical pro-Israelis", so why do you continue to respond? I'm wondering what you're so smug about. Is it that you sit on the fence so you can judge both the Palestinians and the Jews, or just that you’re one of those people who like to argue for the sake of it? You are obviously enjoying yourself enormously. No wonder you won't leave this board.

Regarding you comment, "Just because I'm not a fanatical pro-Israeli like some of you...”
You have no idea who I am, or what I am fanatical about, so please refrain from making judgements about me. What gives you the idea that I am a fanatic? For the record, I would rather be accused of being "gung-ho" or "fanatical” than be so insipid as to not have an opinion either way. At least I have the guts to stand for something.

Your entire attitude is insensitive and spiteful, and don't be coy, you are just thrilled that you've antagonized people. Your response to my posting does make me think that maybe you don’t understand how insensitive you’re being. If you would care to go back and read the story that this particular board was responding to, perhaps you will understand why I feel you’re being insensitive. This may be sport to you, and I’m glad you’re enjoying yourself, but a lot of people are genuinely upset about this little girl. For whatever reason, her death in particular has touched an enormous amount of people. This is not the venue for the point you’re trying to make.

I would argue that most people who read websites such as this one actually do consider different perspectives, on their own, without your coming in to "stir up a bit of a debate". Oooh, you clever little money. Imagine that, you stirred up a debate!

Heh.
Stop being spiteful.
Please indicate where I have been spiteful.

The pleasure you take in upsetting others, that is what makes you spiteful.

a "soft" European - You said it baby! Out of curiosity, were you referring to your backbone or…what?

Posted by j finney

But, let's say that the US went into Baghdad and ended up killing an innocent 5 year old little angel. Not only would you see very grand apologies but you would also see inquiries into how and why this child was killed. If there was any illegal action taken, then the guilty parties would be punished. Also, the citizens of this country, for the most part, would feel total sympathy for the family of said child but would also be angry and want to see Justice be performed on those responsible, even if they are our own troops.

--------

If you truly believe that then you really are deluded. I assume you are unaware of the tens of thousands of children killed in Iraq during the Gulf War? The hundreds of children killed in Afghanistan so far.

I'm far from an apologist for these states but to suggest that if a child dies in an 'enemy' country, then the US mourns is ludicrous beyond belief.

In reply to zulubaby, I don't think that Mr Mist has been particularly insensitive. He is merely expressing a different point of view, and that it seems, has caused quite some consternation on here.

I find that reaction rather strange

A.F.

I'm not being rude, and I'm not being sarcastic either, but I find it strange that you find my reaction strange.

Merely expressing a different point of view?

I think Misty is someone who takes enormous pleasure in stirring things up for the sake of getting a reaction. I think it's insensitive that he chose to do it here.

I guess he's just not my kind of guy

I can accept that some may be interpereting it as being deliberately provocative.

But perhaps he sees it as balance. You must admit there are some rabidly right wing views being expressed elsewhere.

I'm not saying he is right or wrong but surely a debate is meaningless without both sides of an argument being put across

A.F,

My comment that Misty was being insensitive is because of the fact that he chose to have his debate on THIS particular weblog, regarding the death of a beautiful 5 year old soul. I really think using this weblog was in very poor taste.

Anyway, I took a little visit to his website, and nearly died laughing. He's some little 25 year old troll, who thinks he's so clever, and the guy's into Wicca and Paganism! I was having a laugh at myself for having wasted my time responding to him.

[Link: www.misthaven.net...]

I don't know how to insert a hyperlink here, so just do the copy and paste thing.

Here's a quote from his Wicca page...

"If I chose to practice a religion, Wiccan is the one that it would be. For me to consider myself a follower though I'd have to be more dedicated to it. However, I'm not sure I can believe enough in gods and suchlike in order to do that. I can follow the basic principal though. The basic Wiccan creed being "Do what you will, so long as it hurts noone.". I find that very sensible. I think that more folks should try to live by that rule, wouldn't you agree?"

Forgive my, but I find this so amusing.

What a crock!

Hi Zulubaby. I see you've commented both on here and on my weblog too. It's nice to see that you've had a good read around my old website and I'm glad you've found it amusing.

I'm not *quite* sure what my views on Wicca have to do with any of this, but if it suits your mood to comment on them, good for you.

You also wrote

My comment that Misty was being insensitive is because of the fact that he chose to have his debate on THIS particular weblog, regarding the death of a beautiful 5 year old soul. I really think using this weblog was in very poor taste.

What absolute trash. There was no notice at the top of this page that said "please use this page for grieving and don't start any debate now, play nice". What has offended you is that I don't agree 100% with what everyone else has been saying, and you can't deal with it, so you resort to personally attacking me because you have no other decent arguments.

This just proves it -

Anyway, I took a little visit to his website, and nearly died laughing. He's some little 25 year old troll, who thinks he's so clever, and the guy's into Wicca and Paganism!

Again, what does my being into Wicca and Paganism have to do with the price of fish? Sure, it's great that you find it amusing, for whatever reason, I just don't see what relevance it has to any of this.

I was having a laugh at myself for having wasted my time responding to him.

...and yet you're *still* responding to my comments even after reading it, and what's more you took the time to write quite a lengthy comment on my own site.

Oh, the irony.

From my point of view, you seem like the troll to be honest. Your phrases are troll like, most trolls rely on poor personal attacks to illicit responses, most trolls clame that they have more important things to do than waste their time replying, and yet reply they still will. Most trolls add very little to the real debate. This is exactly what you've done.

Now that you've realized that "the place is full of gung-ho Americans and fanatical pro-Israelis", again I ask, what are you doing on this website?

I've already answered this question.

You are obviously disdainful of "gung-ho Americans and fanatical pro-Israelis", so why do you continue to respond?

Even if I were that disdainful, just because I don't agree with someone's opinions does not stop me from talking with them. It's the only way you find out how other people think on matters.

I'm wondering what you're so smug about.

Erm, I'm not actually smug about anything. You seem to be labouring under a misunderstanding of me.

Is it that you sit on the fence so you can judge both the Palestinians and the Jews,

Probably. I judge both sides to the extent that I'd prefer it if they weren't both killing each other. This has been my point all along.

or just that you’re one of those people who like to argue for the sake of it?

Not particularly. The blog here has a comments section. I offered my comments. Someone replied. I replied to them. They replied back and other people leapt in with some casual insults. Most of my replies since then have been either refining my own position for the sake of clarity, or attempting to address some of the insults or questions that have been put before me.

You yourself contribute to me being here. If you want me to go so much, then simply stop asking questions of me and insulting me, and I'll have no further need to be here, will I?

You are obviously enjoying yourself enormously. No wonder you won't leave this board.

I've left the board quite a lot thank you. I come back in the morning to have a fresh look to see how people have replied. The only replies lately were from you. So I'm replying to you, now. You'll probably quite like me replying I should think, being as you ended your comment on my weblog with

Now scurry along and think up some clever little response, quick!

Which really seems like you can't quite make up your mind whether you do or don't want to waste any more of your precious time replying to me.

Regarding you comment, "Just because I'm not a fanatical pro-Israeli like some of you...”
You have no idea who I am, or what I am fanatical about, so please refrain from making judgements about me.

If you're not pro-Israeli then I do apologise for that statement. I was simply drawing a conclusion based on the evidence of this forum, which consists almost entirely of pro-Israeli views, some of which can easily be seen as fanatical, being as they talk about wiping out entire populations of people.

What gives you the idea that I am a fanatic?

Well, the above, and

For the record, I would rather be accused of being "gung-ho" or "fanatical”

That suggests that you are too.

than be so insipid as to not have an opinion either way. At least I have the guts to stand for something.

Ahh, the insults flow again. Yes, call me insipid just because I disagree with your views. I *do* stand for something. In case you've failed to notice somehow, I stand for an end to the violence and killing.

Your entire attitude is insensitive and spiteful, and don't be coy, you are just thrilled that you've antagonized people.

I take no pleasure whatsoever from people replying to me, and am unaware of having antagonized people, as you put it. I'm merely stating my point of view. I can't help it if that upsets you I'm afraid.

Your response to my posting does make me think that maybe you don’t understand how insensitive you’re being. If you would care to go back and read the story that this particular board was responding to, perhaps you will understand why I feel you’re being insensitive. This may be sport to you, and I’m glad you’re enjoying yourself, but a lot of people are genuinely upset about this little girl. For whatever reason, her death in particular has touched an enormous amount of people. This is not the venue for the point you’re trying to make.

If people had complained in response to my post along the lines of "please take that discussion elsewhere, it doesn't belong here", then that point would have been valid. However, noone did that. What *did* happen was that other people put forward their views. It's called conversation and debate. It's not insensitive.

For *your* record, this isn't "sport to me" and I certainly don't "enjoy" having people like you trying to put my across as being some kind of trollish idiot, which I'm not. If you don't want me to characterise you as a certain type, then don't sit their doing the same to me.

I would argue that most people who read websites such as this one actually do consider different perspectives, on their own, without your coming in to "stir up a bit of a debate". Oooh, you clever little money. Imagine that, you stirred up a debate!

Ooo, you clever little monkey, you took the piss. Imagine that, you used a personal attack again.

My remark about stiring up a debate was to address the fact that some people, yourself included, would seem to prefer it if I wasn't here, along with my views that most of you disagree with. The assumption on my part being that you are used to making your comments and having everyone pat you on the back, instead of taking the time to question some of the things that are being said. I take no pleasure in it, to be honest I would have prefered to have made my comment as I did some 100 or so comments ago and just left it at that, but it was replied to and derided and I felt that further response was needed.

Heh.
Stop being spiteful.
Please indicate where I have been spiteful.

The pleasure you take in upsetting others, that is what makes you spiteful.

You're assuming that I'm doing that though, which I'm not.

I'm not sure entirely what relevance his personal choice of religion has on the validity of his views (unless he is of course a practicising Palestinian muslim/christian).

I am also a little perplexed by the attitude that you would rather have a more extreme point of view than a neutral one.

Anyway - the upshot is, I don't think Mist was originally trying to antagonise you guys. I think he may possibly be trying to do that now. But I'm not sure that was his original intention.

Now if you want a debate - a look through the history books will pretty much show you that both sides are guilty of some pretty horrendous acts through the ages.

Who is right? I don't know, so I won't comment on the politics of it. What is the solution? again I have no idea so I don't feel qualified to comment on the best course of action. I don't understand why many of the people here. Some of whom will probably be less knowledgable on the situation than me feel they know the answer.

But I do know that advocating the destruction of Palestine is as wrong as being an apologist for the suicide bombers.

The little girl who died was a real tragedy, but it is no more or less of a tragedy than the five year old girl who is killed by Israeli shelling, or the five year old killed by US bombing in Afghanistan or the five year old killed by Saddam Hussein.

Perhaps some of the more emotive people (or deliberately provocative: Msrs Glazer, Crawford and Spoogemonkey) here would do well to remember that.

Sitting on the fence may not be popular, but surely it is extreme opposing views which cause conflict?

A.F., Mr. Mist, etc.

This is not about YOU.

Get over yourselves.

I haven't ever taken it as about being myself. But I find it quite amusing that you seem to be offended by a moderate, uncontroversial point of view.

Now depending on what level you are referring to - it is also not about you either, so why did you post and bring back to life a thread which was long dead?

After reading all your comments, I have only to say:
Please look at our GAL before doing more crimes, killing innocent people. If it doesn't change you, I'll hate to belong to the human race.

A. Aizenman

try
[Link: www.bloodshed.moviespage.com...]
you will get the reality there

Absolutely horrendous, and absolutely typical: to the Philistines currently going by the name "Palestinians," there is no such thing as "innocent blood" - - - not even the blood of such a divine masterpiece as little Gal.

In Israel, loving parents cannot cuddle with such children and say, "There, there, honey, there aren't really any monsters who'll get you!" Because in Israel, as long as a single Philistine breathes, there are such monsters. The only consolation is this:

It's HIS land.
Gal is HIS child.
Blessed be His Name.

Words fail me...............please GOD stop it now!!!

My heart breaks when I see the murder of the innocence in Israel. My heart goes out to the families and the loved ones. My prayer is that all of Israel will band together and continue to grow and the prophecy will continue with the faith and steadfastness of the jewish nation.

The palestinian terrorists are commiting genocide of the the Jewish People by killing their young but the rest of the world does not seem to see this.

Band together, stand fast. All those born in other nations and immigrated to Israel, do not leave but band together and build and continue to have faith and strength. All our prayers are with you.

Do not let this beautiful soul who is gone from us have a death that is in vain. Stand with mercy, love, faith, forgiveness, strength and fairness. Let not the negative feelings of hatred, judgement, weakness, fear,etc ever take a seat in your hearts but know that God is with you and this is not in vain. We stand with you each and every day and our prayers are with you always.....
CFP

The palestinians are like a plaque of insects sent to irritate and sting us. We need to remain brave and fearless in the face of adversity. They will lose for they are weak, evil people.