Object lesson: It's not a good idea to throw rocks at grieving armed people. They might shoot your ass.

"Health hint for the traveler: don't throw stuff at guys with guns." -- Walter Slovotsky

These people show no respect for anything. Israeli's put up with the 1,000 man march funerals the Palestinians love, even when the guy wrapped in the flag isn't actually dead.

Just goes to show you that these Jews are more savage than the Palestinians. Why are would they respond with guns?

Israel should be dismantled.

What did you expect, that they'd throw down their guns and start looking for rocks? Being better armed doesn't make you evil.

I was glad to read this more inclusive story about the incident, because on a couple of websites I visited before this it was portrayed as just a riot with no incitatory events (i.e., the rock-throwing at the funeral).

We dismantle countries for savagery?

Someone get Bunky a sledgehammer and a ticket to Riyadh. (Not in that order.)

Hey, it's the return of Super Funky Binky Bunky, the village idiot. How's it going?

Why are would [his grammar error, not mine] they respond with guns?

Hey, Binky, let me ask you something. If I have sizeable rocks at hand and I throw them at you with the intent to kill you, and you have a gun in your hand, would you put down your gun and find a rock to throw at me?

Rocks are, in fact, deadly weapons. If you don't think so, go find a five-pound rock and heave it at Jak King at around 50mph and see if he gets hurt or not.

I now understand why BNK relates to the Palis. He shows up at LGF to throw ill-aimed rocks(actually they're more like spitballs) and then acts aggrieved when people who are intellectually much better equipped for battle than he is turn the heavy artillery on him.

"The (settlers) attacked the area and started shooting at the house and then we threw stones at them so they would leave. They shot the girl in the head and me in my leg," a Palestinian man, who did not give his name, said from his hospital bed.

...

The Palestinians, though confined to their homes by an army-imposed curfew, began throwing stones at the funeral procession, according to photographers at the scene."

Congenital liars. To Muslims, it is not only permitted to lie to infidels, it's required. And I don't mean radical fringe, I mean mainstream.

It may well turn out that the Pals killed the girl just as it turned out they killed the boy with his father in the street some months ago after there was a monster flack against Israel for killing the boy.

Charles -- I consider the term "settler", however widespread its use, an indignity. A "settler" is nothing other than an Israeli who lives in a disputed area. The label "settler" carries pejorative moral and political connotations by reducing the individual's entire identity to an act of "occupation". (Take, for example, the widespread practice of reporting the murder of an Israeli child living in the West Bank as "a settler being killed", as if the child's city of residence were somehow material to assessing the propriety of the murder). I'm confident you don't mean to imply any of these things and that your use of the expression is a result of it having become a term of art. But I'd ask you to reconsider whether it's really an appropriate label.

I can't help wondering what a 14-year old was doing standing on the balcony while this violence and fighting was going on. How could her parents allow that?

To throw stones at mourners is beyond comprehension.

BNK, I bet you $5000 that, were you not armed with a gun, I could kill you with a rock.

Why should the Israelis let themselves be stoned to death, when they have firearms that can be used to kill the Palestinians before the Palestinians kill them?

The real story is that the so-called "settlers" haven't gone on a lot of "rampages" before. They've certainly had cause.

To Jonathan regarding the term "settler":

I dislike it also, but the equivalent is used commonly in Hebrew (mityashev or mitnahel).

So it's bound to show up when remarks or news reports are translated.

Maybe bunky just has a soft spot in his heart (head) for religious fanatics stoning Jews.

As Hitler said in 1943 regarding the Jewish getto rising, "how dare those Jews fight back, they are supposed to march into the gas chambers in an orderly fashion."

Bunky, just for scientific purposes of course, stand in an narrow alley while myself and ten other guys throw bricks at you. Would you call this assault with a deadly weapon? If you had a gun would you shoot back?

Tal, you are correct. Of course, mitnachel has somewhat positive connotations, along the lines of the early American "pioneers". In any event, it's been a while since I listened to Kol Yisrael, but I imagine they don't describe children who've been shot as mitnachalim first and "children" only second.

My point is not that we should use words that carry only positive connotations (although it's obvious that I don't view the settlements as intrinsically bad or provocative); instead, I'd like to see terminology that's as neutral as possible. Let's call them "Israelis", rather than choosing a term which, in English at least, is laden with political significance.

It's about time they went on the offensive. Israel, and the "settlers" in particular, will be condenmed by the international community regardless of their actions. So rather than sit back and take it, they might as well fight back. It worked in 1967, it will work in 2002.

ABC news just conveniently forgot to mention that Israels 'went on the offensive' after Palestineans threw rocks and iron pipes at mourners returning from the funeral.

"Health hint for the traveler: don't throw stuff at guys with guns." -- Walter Slovotsky

Wasn't the follow-up that it's not healthy to stand next to guys that throw stuff at guys with guns?

(If that makes any sense.)

Bottom line: stones kill. In New York when a crazy man throws a stone ("joyfully tosses a pebble", Said style) he gets his ass thrown in jail.

Self defense in the face of deadly attacking is entirely appropriate.

Kobi Mandel and Yosef Ishran, 14
Kobi and Yosef were brutally murdered,their heads smashed with rocks at the entrance to a cave.

On Monday,May 7,2001,Kobi and Yosef decided to skip school the next day and hike in an area near their community of Tekoa.Their final destination was the Haritoun cave in the Judean Desert.In the morning,they let a few friends in on their plans.They took food and water with them and set out on their aventure.
By late in the evening,when the boys did not return home,their parents began to worry.Then they heard from their sons’friends for the first time that the boys had gone “on a hike to the cave.”

Soon afterwards,an army unit in the area found the bodies.“The identification process was horrible.It was simply impossible to identify the children’s faces.The heads of the two boys had been completely smashed,”said one of those present at the time.

Security sources believe the two boys went down to the wadi near Tekoa,where they encountered their murderers.Sensing the danger, they ran for cover in the Haritoun cave.The murderers,apparently two adults,showed no mercy.They killed one of the boys,battering him on the head with rocks.The other boy was similarly killed inside the cave, just a few meters away.

Yes, stones kill.

I detect that the Arabs, the Euroepans and the Media sense that they have been given a new lease on their criticism of Israel.

By coloring events like this in their oh so anti-Israel fashion, we are in for another round of all Jenin all the time, criticim.

I suggest we all get used to it and have the strength to weather yet another storm of lies and half-truths coming from the one-way mirror that is the mainstream media.

Niven's First Law:

Never throw shit at an armed man.

Niven's Second Law:

Never stand next to someone throwing shit at an armed man.

Cal

CNN Headline news, almost forgot to mention Arabs throwing stones at funeral procession....

News began with Settlers rioting in hebron injured 21 Arabs..etc.....

as an afterthought, they mention arabs threw stones......

I sent them letter...

Nice to see that the Arabs are throwing rocks at armed mourners in a funeral procession; it seems that they still have some rocks rattling around in their heads, however.

I agree (#13, 17) that the important point here is that the "settler" community (or whatever you want to call them) has potentially reached the breaking point. If so, the Isreal/Palestinian dynamic has changed substantially. No matter how the settlers are seen by mainstream Israelis (the term settlers encompasses both fanatically religious Jews and immigrants who just want affordable housing), the Israeli government is bound by law to protect them. Considering the persistant carnage, I'm surprised it took this long for Isreali civilians to form their own militias. This could be a significant turning point.

Ploom, please report it to honestreporting.com, and to camera.org.

There's the ADL too.

Cal -- Thanks! I knew there was a follow-up to that.

Re #18: "...after Palestineans threw rocks and iron pipes at mourners returning from the funeral."

Iron pipes? As in the casings for PIPE bombs? That rather changes things.

And what if one of those rocks being thrown just happen to be a live grenade? As if rocks weren't also deadly. I'd shoot the b*stards myself.

And BNK, I'll take that rock fight. I get two rocks. The first rock I lob in a big arc towards you. As you watch it, and laugh, my second rock is thrown straight at your head to try to beat some sense into it.

With all respect it doesn't seem from the article in Haaretz that the mourners were acting purely in self-defence.

The fact that -if the report is true- they went on to attack property would seem to bear that out.

I accept though that the "if" is a very important "if".

Mark:

I would not hold Ha 'Aretz as anything more than a place of reference, as they seem to have an amazing update system. They report on events almost immediately.

Beside that feature, they are extremely left-wing, and often sound a lot like the LA Times. It was photographers that reported that the Palestinians were throwing rocks at the mourners. I don't know why that has suddenly been omitted.

What is so infuriating to me is that the Palestinians do this kind of thing to the Israelis in Hebron all the time. There has been incident after incident. It is shocking that Israelis did this because it is so out of character. This is the crap usually reserved for the Palestinian monsters.

OF course, when the Palestinians do it it's justified by the media...

Lying and deception are just one more thing that Muslims learned from Christians (Along with go ye therefore and conquer all nations)"

"Saint John" Chrysostom (self-described Jew hater)...

Do you see the advantage of deceit? And if any one were to reckon up all the tricks of physicians the list would run on to an indefinite length. And not only those who heal the body but those also who attend to the diseases of the soul may be found continually making use of this remedy. Thus the blessed Paul attracted those multitudes of Jews: with this purpose he circumcised Timothy, although he warned the Galatians in his letter that Christ would not profit those who were circumcised. For this cause he submitted to the law, although he reckoned the righteousness which came from the law but loss after receiving the faith in Christ. For great is the value of deceit...

Huh?

I think the patience for these monsters is rapidly eroding.

David Perlmutter has an interesting commentary in the Jewish World Review.

"Should Israel go Nazi?"

[One] Big Lie of the modern age has persisted that is especially cruel and destructive--intentionally so, of course--that Israel has behaved like Nazi Germany, and that various Israeli leaders, from Ben Gurion to Sharon, are "another Hitler."

[ . . . ]

Israel is increasingly surrounded by enemies better and better armed by American taxpayers and motorists, and soon to wield weapons of mass destruction. As it becomes clear that the ranks of "moderates" in the Arab and Muslim world are pita-thin, and Israelis are repeatedly murdered just for the crime of being living Jews, isn't it time to ask what it would mean if Israel and its leaders had made the slander a reality?

What if?; What if?

"joyfully tosses a pebble", Said style

Did he actually say it about himself? What a fucking poseur.

Lying and deception are just one more thing that Muslims learned from Christians (Along with go ye therefore and conquer all nations)"

I have no great affection for Christianity (or any religion, for that matter), but what a steaming pile of bullshit. Christians (i.e. the West - for which I do have affection) no more introduced deception to Muslims than, say, slavery to Africa. The capacity to lie and kill (and to justify deceipt and murder) is one of the few areas in which all cultures seem to be equally apt, historically speaking. And, of course, we all know in the name of which religion the evil death cult is being spread right now.

I have no great affection for religions either, so I'll leave the dismantling of NAC-NAJ to someone else. But I have some rules I try to live by in my life...and advise others to as well.
"Don't bring a knife (rock) to a gunfight."
Another, which is closely related:
"Don't START a rock fight with someone holding a gun."
These two rules, if followed, seriously reduce instances dumbfounded idiots asking, "Why'd they shoot me? All I had was a rock and some pipes, and the highground, and...."

I'm also surprised that with all of the extreme provocation that the Jews of Hebron have had to endure, they haven't cracked long before now.

And, please remember that the Jews of Hebron are not "mere settlers." Jews have had a presence in Hebron for centuries. The Arabs carried out a massacre of Jews there in 1929. So, despite the Arabs' false claim that they have a right to a Judenrein Judea and Samaria while they also have a right to continue to live and work in Israel (what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine), they have no more right to Hebron than do the Jews.

And on this one, I fully support the use of deadly force. Rocks can, indeed, seriously injure, maim and kill, and the mourners had the absolute right to defend themselves from the kind of animals who would attack a funeral procession in the first place.

This is what Mr. Said had to say about his stone-throwing:

"Right after that we drove to the border post, also abandoned by Israeli troops, now a deserted area except for Lebanese visitors who come there in large numbers to throw stones of celebration across the still heavily fortified border. No Israelis, neither military nor civilians, were in sight.

During our 10-minute stop I was photographed there without my knowledge pitching a tiny pebble in competition with some of the younger men present, none of whom of course had any particular target in sight. The area was empty for miles and miles. Two days later my picture appeared in newspapers in Israel and all over the West. I was described as a rock-throwing terrorist, a man of violence, and so on and on, in the familiar chorus of defamation and falsehood known to anyone who has incurred the hostility of Zionist propaganda. "

Here is the link: [Link: www.lawsociety.org...]

I also have the picture of him "pitching" but do not know how to include it.

This article from Arutz Sheva ([Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...] sheds more light on the nature of the attack on the funeral procession, which was a lot more serious than stone throwing. I've added the bolding:

Arabs Bombard Mourners At Hevron Funeral
A violent exchange took place between Arabs and Jews in Hevron yesterday, as mourners gathered to bury slain IDF Sgt. Elazar Leibovitz. Arabs murdered Leibovitz at the Zief junction near Hevron on Friday. As the funeral procession left the Cave of the Patriarchs (Me'arat HaMachpela), on its way to the town's ancient Jewish cemetery, Arabs standing on the roofs and balconies of their homes nearby began heaving cement blocks, boulders, planks and iron rods down onto the mourners.

In response the soldiers and armed civilians in the procession began firing warning shots in the air, and when the bombardment would not yield, they began shooting in the direction of the Arabs hurling the objects. Arab sources say that a 14-year-old girl standing on the balcony of her home was killed by gunfire, while her brother was wounded. Hevron resident Uri Karzen, who took part in the funeral procession told Arutz Sheva today, that it is "absolutely possible" that the girl who died took part in the attack on the mourners. Karzen also stressed that the soldiers and civilians who began firing were doing so in self-defense since the Arabs were lobbing their heavy objects from the rooftops of three story buildings above the procession.

The initial melee lasted for ten to fifteen minutes. Additional violent exchanges took place at various points throughout the funeral procession. Between 10-15 security force officials were injured throughout the day. Police also arrested four Israelis who took part in the violence. Last night the Jerusalem Magistrate's Court ordered the release of the Israelis, pending an investigation into the incident. Israeli officials have called on the PA to assist in the investigation.

Yesterday also marked the anniversary of the 1929 massacre in which Arabs murdered 67 members of the Jewish community of Hevron. Leibovitz was laid to rest alongside those victims.

Edward Said said he was photographed without his knowledge, but wasn't he the one who took the picture to the media?

Amy, I was just going to post that article.

It certainly offers a different perspective, doesn't it?

Very interesting story, Amy, thanks. I’ve posted it on the front page.

Arutz Sheva did not mention at all the NY Times report that the settlers roughed up journalists (except, I suppose, their own), in particular the photographer and reporter for Yediot. Wonder what they're hiding?

All you need to know about the Hebron settlers is they made a pilgrimage site out of the grave of Baruch Goldstein. The center and left wing parties in the Knesset, nauseated, made them close it.

Actually, my favorite headline on this story comes from the omni-tendentious BBC:

"Settler funeral sparks Hebron clashes"

This makes it sound like it was the funeral that caused the violence. Ah, the temerity of those oppressive Jews; they even insist on burying their dead.

I'm going to have to dissent on this one, sorry.

While I'm sure the settlers in the funeral procession were indeed provoked by the stone-throwing Palis, they overreacted in the worst way. Giving as good as you get to the stone-throwers is just fine by me; injuring shopkeepers who had nothing to do with the incident, pulling a family out of their home and burning it, and taking on the Israeli Border Police who came to their aid (injuring 15!) is not.

No doubt much of the aggression shown by the settlers is the result of the pent-up frustration brought on by the events of the last 2 years. But if the shoe were on the other foot (i.e, an Arab "martyr" funeral and Jewish provocateurs and victims), would we just accept that? Justifying such wanton destruction of life and property with the sorry excuse of "frustration" is something I expect of the likes of BNK, not the normally intelligent, moral LGF readership.

The settlers probably would have done themselves better - from the PR aspect as well - by responding to the stone-throwers only, and then calling in the Border Police to clean up. It would be far easier to explain that in terms of self-defense.

While I'm sure the settlers in the funeral procession were indeed provoked by the stone-throwing Palis

WHY?

Ha 'Aretz and the NYT - I wouldn't rely on either publication for unbiased reporting.

"But if the shoe were on the other foot (i.e, an Arab "martyr" funeral and Jewish provocateurs and victims), would we just accept that?"

Pleeeze. If the events of the last two, nine, and fifty-four years have demonstrated anything, it is that had Jews stoned Palestinians in a funeral procession, Palestinians would have gone on a rampage that would make the riot in Hebron look like child's play. And the international press would have had a field day blaming you know who.

Andrew,

Since when is the left-wing Ha'aretz the one source of gospel truth? With all due respect to Givati, even if he was there, he's only one man. He may not have seen the start of the event. Why would the photographers quoted as witnesses to the rock-throwing lie?

Also, if the Jewish settlers instigated the riot, I'd expect they'd have at least waited until after the poor bloke was buried and they'd been riled up by the graveside speeches. It makes no sense that all of a sudden, the mourners decided taking revenge upon the local populace was more urgent than burying the victim - with no provocation.

It makes no sense that all of a sudden, the mourners decided taking revenge upon the local populace was more urgent than burying the victim - with no provocation.

I think you're onto something here. While I'm not very familiar with tenets of orthodox Judaism, I gather that burying the dead as soon as possible is a very important priority.

Esther, the settlers attacked the photographers. I'll have to wait for that issue of Yediot (with front-page pics) to show up in America because I can't find it on their website.

I wonder if the story about the photographers got garbled.

Col. Givati is a deputy of Likud (right-wing Likud yet) minister Landau. It's hard for me to imagine he would criticize the Hebron Jews without cause.

The crowd had been riled up by the speeches; they were already over and indeed had called for revenge.

The Hebron Jews have (yet again) provided ammunition to the enemies of Israel and Judaism. I think they see that as their role.

Andrew, the referenced article (in Ha'aretz, not known for its right-wing inclination) clearly states: "The Palestinians, though confined to their homes by an army-imposed curfew, began throwing stones at the funeral procession, according to photographers at the scene." Whether or not the settlers later attacked the photographers is irrelevant as to how the incident started. And I'm still hard-pressed to believe that they'd interrupt a funeral - leaving a body on a podium! - and go on a rampage for no good reason. Givati's politics notwithstanding, I'd like to hear him explain how that happened. Even the Muslims who riot on the Temle Mount from time to time wait until their prayer service is over before they do their stuff.

Don't get me wrong - I'm in complete agreement with you that what happened was shameful (though to accuse the whole community of Hebron Jews for the acts of a few is also wrong). But for the events to unfold as they did, I think there had to be Palestinian provocation in there somewhere.