And we would have gotten away with it, Allah willing, if it weren't for those meddling Jews.

So why is it again that the Israelis are pulling out of Bethlehem and Gaza? So that guys like this can move around more freely?

So...

You think Uzi's scenario would "miraculously" switch anti-semites and anti-Israel types into our friends?

Maybe it is the reason. I mean, why on earth did Israel not respond after the Pi Pilot thing? They didn't do anything--most people in the world don't even know about, even most pro-Israel supporters.

So Sharon decides, hmm, let's give them another shot? Does he want 10,000 dead Israelis? I wonder, maybe he does.

I read an article the other day from his chief apologist, Uri Dan, the NY Post Israel reporter and Sharon's former flack when he was defense secretary in '82. It's who I always turn to when I want to find out what's on Sharon's mind. Anyway, he said something along the lines of, were it not for Sharon, there'd be a lot more than 600 Israeli civilians dead. How dare he make such an assertion, when it really due to the fluke chance that the truck happened to carry diesel fuel that that happened?

Uzi is right about the scope of a successful attack: I heard something similar recently about the explosion that would be caused if terrorists blew up a fuel tanker off the coast of Manhattan. It would basically be like an atomic bomb without the radiation.

What I don't understand is how a successful attack could have led to the total destruction of the Palestinian people? Is the suggestion here that Israel would have gone nuclear on the West Bank? How could they do so without creating severe health risks to their own civilian population?

"You think Uzi's scenario would "miraculously" switch anti-semites and anti-Israel types into our friends?"

I think if you have murder on that massive a scale, every "civilized" nation has to condemn it and express sympathy for the victims. It would last a few days at most, like from 9/11/01 until about 9/20/01, when just about everybody expressed solidarity with the US.

Of course, Israel wouldn't take 4 weeks to get around to responding, so big international we-are-the-world group hug wouldn't last as long either.

NC,

They don't need to go nuclear. They could just round up everyone and shoot them.

Or use artillery first to level their cities. Surround the cities with tanks. A la Hama, a technique demonstrated by Assad (Sr.).

Or they could just deport them all to Jordan. Or Gaza. The logistics would be awful, but it might be possible.

I'm not suggesting any of those things, btw.

I could see transfer, but I don't ever see them using the first two tactics you describe. And transfer wouldn't result in the "total destruction" of Palestinians, just their displacement. So I'm still wondering.

And the whole world watches as if the above story was a new episode of one of those *reality* TV shows.

"Honey, let's switch the channel, Hamas didn't blow up 10,000 Jews. The show is getting boring..."

Some of you might of heard this expression before...

There are 6 billion people on this planet and 7 billion assholes.

The apathy of the world towards Israel is sickening. The silence is deafening. Let the floodings continue.

Instant solution! The Palis want land? Give them all the land in a 1 mile radius around the storage facility.

(I thought that Israel used the metric system?)

Build a facility where explosives are stored right next to the busiest highway junction in the country? What on earth were they thinking?

War is war.

I'm not scientifically inclined, so could those who are explain a) how much fuel is in a "tanker" and b) why exploding it would create this nuclear-like explosion I'm hearing about. Would it really be that powerful, spreading over a mile radius?

John, its really a worse-case scenario. Properly done, and no I won't describe how thankyou, it creates the largest fuel-air explosive ever seen. Enormous overpressure wave ( really the most destructive part of a nuclear device ).

Militant Elvis writes:

Build a facility where explosives are stored right next to the busiest highway junction in the country? What on earth were they thinking?

Not explosives -- fuel. It was a fuel depot. There are thousands of such things all over the place in any halfway-industrialized country.

NC writes:

I could see transfer, but I don't ever see them using the first two tactics you describe. And transfer wouldn't result in the "total destruction" of Palestinians, just their displacement. So I'm still wondering.

If thousands of Israelis died as per Uzi's scenario, I imagine the local population would be pretty pissed. It wouldn't surprise me if the thoughts of revenge and ending the problem once and for all were enough to bring napalm upon every Palestinian population center in Gaza and the West Bank. Arab population centers are high-density with cheap construction; they would burn up very quickly, killing virtually everyone in them. All that would remain would be a small population of isolated villagers.

The UN and EU would issue pro-forma protests, and worldwide there would be Moments of Silence for the dead; then the world would go back to business. And for the rest of their history, Israelis would be beating themselves up over whether that was the right thing to do, and what it says about them. But the point would be moot -- the Palestinians would already be dead.

Build a facility where explosives are stored right next to the busiest highway junction in the country? What on earth were they thinking?

I don't know where you live, but that's not unusual. There's a gas/oil terminal next to a major surface street here in Cincinnati -- it's also next to a playground and a waterworks pumping station. Also, it's not unusual to see natural gas distributors near the highway.

Putting something close to the highway means easier and quicker transportation.

John,

You might look into the events at Texas City back in 1947. A Liberty Ship carrying fertilizer blew up, and the results were felt miles inland. And Liberty ships are nowhere near as large as VLCCs (Very Large Crude Carriers, aka supertankers) or LNG (liquid natural gas) carriers.

#4 - after the various attacks on Americans abroad, we did nothing. Blame who you will - Clinton for being spineless or the Republicans for meaninglessly tying him up with CigarGate. Either way, it hardly matters, it emboldened the opposition because we did nothing.

When they killed three thousand of America's best men and women, we leveled a country. Think about it - we levelled a _country_ in exchange for four airplanes and two buildings. I know that much of Afghanistan survives. But we still ousted its rulers and killed a great number of people, and changed the regime.

Israel doesn't have the luxuries that America does. After a megaterror attack, however, they do. After 10,000 people are killed at a clip, the opinion of the rest of the world becomes irrelevant. Even the US would let the leash slip.

It's Iphegenia at Aulis only with Jews and Arabs instead of with Greeks and trojans.

Sheesh, just transfer these people out before something terrible happens. Then everyone will wring their hands, and say how could we have prevented it? The euros will say this is what comes of occupation, chomsky will say this is a good opportunity for a binational state to now be formed in the mideast, and colin powel will declaim the cycle of violence.

no arabs =no terrorism. Sad, but true.

These five or six terrorists could have ended the Palestinian national movement and maybe even the Palestinians' entire physical existence, on their own initiative, without seeking anybody's advice or authorization.

I usually agree with Uzi, but not this time.

There is nothing the Palestinians can do to stop the momentum of their national movement, because they are never held accountable for their vicious acts by the rest of the world, and most importantly not held accountable by Israel. I am getting a little weary from this, "well if the Palestinians would do this then they'd really be in trouble."

Israel's threats carry about as much weight as the Black Knight's threats to King Arthur in Monty Python's Holy Grail. After cutting off all the Knights appendages, the black Knight defiantly calls "I'll do you for that" to which Arthur replies "What are you going to do, bleed on me." Like the Black Knight, all Israel has done so far is bleed on the Palestinians.

If what the Palestinians have done up until now has not resulted in a justified (in the eyes of the world) military operation, why would thousands of more Jewish casualties change anything.

Europe would call such an attack, an act of desperation while Powell would try to open dialouge with Arafat; and Bush would say that he is sickened by it, but call on all sides to move toward peace, while the "but heads" (I condemn it but Israeli aggression . . . ) all start condemning Israel.

The bottom line is that Jeiwsh blood has been and always will be cheap. Whether it is 2 at an El-Al ticket counter, 8 in a University Cafeteria, 10,000 in a fuel explosion, or 6,000,000 in Europe. Jews do not have a right to defend themselves. Unfortunately the Israeli government appears to be believing this too.

The sad fact is that Israel has lost its image of strength to the Palestinian Arabs and Israel has no (and really never had) sympathy from the rest of the world. Until Israel once again takes to the stick, they will never have the carrot of security.

Getting the statement from Bush that a regime change and reform are necessary in the PA before a state will be considered was a golden opportunity missed by having a fool for a Foreign Minister and the rest of the government falling over itself to meet with that condemned regime (which now the PM looks to be on board with). On top of that Israel has backpedalled from Bush's hardline against the PA by giving it money so that they can buy Karine B, C, and D; by not demanding the immediate arrest and extradition of Sheek Yassin and his band of merry men; and above all quitting from the territory which while it was there no attacks were occuring, and right after the Palestinian "exteremist" groups, including Yasser's own Fatah, have publically refused to abide by, all add up to a message to the Palestinians that they will never be defeated, because the Israeli goverment doesn't have the stomach to defeat them.

I don't know what Sharon is waiting for, but if he has not reached his threshold now, he never will.

Finally regarding Uzi's comment that these acts would be committed without anyone authorization is contrary to the mountains of evidence that these are not lone acts of desperation but rather carefully planned, financed and orchestrated actions sanctioned by the supreme authority of Arafat and the PA.

Hamas exists under the authorization of Arafat, as does everything that happens in the wasteland of the PA territory. Arafat has given his authorization for not only Hamas to kill Jews, but has provided free reign for all the Jew killin' organizations under his jurisdiction. All attacks are either approved, funded or encouraged by the Kleptocrat in charge of the moral bankruptcy of Palestinian society, Yasser Arafat.

If this Hamas plan did happen, with thousands of dead Israelis, then they truly wouldn't care what the world thinks. They would massively and disporportianately retaliate- as in heavy artillery down on Jenin, Rmalaah, Gaza, etc. Maybe they'd give an hour for evacuation. Maybe not. But this would be the last straw.

Once again we see the lie behind the alleged "solidarity" between Palestinians and the Jihad Industry. The Saudis, Iraqis, Egyptians, and leftists everywhere bewail the fate of the poor Pals, but they couldn't care less about them. They only love the Pals so long as they can use them to attack Israel and the US.

The Palestinians are pawns. Cannon fodder. Expendible rounds of ammunition. As Shakespeare would put it, they are "food and diet to some enterprise that hath a [hungry!] stomach to it."

As for 'world opinion,' or rather the Euroweenies, such a mega-attack would likely paralyze their reflexive anti-Jewish utterings for the minutes needed to make the Pals pay their 75 year bill in full.

Gotta go with J Lichty on this one - the Israelis would do very little in terms of retaliation. They would be so afraid of world opinion and so concerned about taking the moral high ground that I believe they would only symbolically retaliate. Sure, they may expel Arafat to live in Paris with his wife, but that's about it. Have the non-stop terror attacks since Camp David not already justified much of what you all propose here to do to the Pals in retaliation? How many Jews have to die before all that is ok? 5,000 at a time? 10,000 at a time?

The problem is that the Israelis (including some senior military people that I have spoken with) naively think that they are winning the war. They think the Palestinians have almost reached their wits end. They are just waiting around for the Pals to fall apart. But it will only get worse unless they proactively do something about it. Transfer, for example, or simply following the Syrian/Jordanian model for dealing with Islamic terrorist uprisings.

Why would this be a last straw when shooting babies in their mothers arms, smashing to death 13 year old boys, blowing up octeganarians at a seder and teen girls at a disco were not last straws?

It's like the cliche about boiling a frog. People can stand horror and pain administered incrementally than a catostrophic blow. Look at the difference between the reactions to the Al-Qeada attacks before and on 9-11.

re: #19

That's the problem, the US has Israel on a fucking leash.

Roll over, good boy, NOW BEG for our support.

post #17:

Would that gas/oil terminal be the facility behind Union Terminal? Just curious.

The last straw will come not in Israel, but in Europe.
Are Islamofascists smart enough to avoid that? They have bitten the hand that feeds them literally, the USA; and they have essentially gotten away with it, so far at least.
Might they not be emboldened, then, to also bite the hand that feeds them politically?
Stay tuned.

To see the real world effects of a ship explosion read about the Texas City disaster of 1947.

[Link: www.texas-city-tx.org...]

LNG tankers from Algeria and elsewhere in the Muslim world frequently put in at European ports, more so than in the U.S. Security precautions are extensive but there is some question that they are adequate, especially given the large population of Muslim immigrants in some of these ports. With the right plan, a suicide squad, and a secure enough safe house for preparation, a ship is much easier than an airplane to hijack or blow up.

Simian -- what about the factory explosion in France shortly after 9-11? I don't remember the particulars, but the suspected torch man was dressed like he expected to become a martyr.

LNG tankers from Algeria and elsewhere in the Muslim world frequently put in at European ports, more so than in the U.S. Security precautions are extensive but there is some question that they are adequate, especially given the large population of Muslim immigrants in some of these ports. With the right plan, a suicide squad, and a secure enough safe house for preparation, a ship is much easier than an airplane to hijack or blow up.

How come people are always worried about bad guys doing something clever and don't think that good guys can come up with some interesting plans also? Those tankers are most vulnerable to a catastrophic accident when loading up in their home port.

One thing that has struck me about the last two years of violence, and especially in recent months, is the practical total absense of retaliatory violence carried out by regular civilians in Israel. It's always worried me that at some point somebody in Israel was going to snap in response to the terror attacks and go on a shooting spree in an Arab market or mosque somewhere. The publicity for this, to say the least, would be atrocious. (The guaranteed equivocation of Palestinian terror with such a Jewish attack would be a given from there onward, for example). Except for that "Avengers of the Widows and Orphans" group, or whatever their name was, who planted a few dud bombs a while back, there hasn't been any violent response--vigilianteism, etc.--among the general populace. This is a good thing, to say the least.

Charles, thanks for quoting me on the front page. I'm staggered.

To all those who were skeptical about the severity of Israel's likely response to such an attack, I refer you to the full comment (#34) on the thread from August 21, "Hamas Cell Captured". Two paragraphs of that comment, which were not quoted on the front page, contain my thinking on this point.

I wrote, as follows:

"Now Israel is very very lucky that this attack failed. (Sometimes it seems we have more luck than brains). But what the Arabs and their friends need to realize is that the Palestinians are also lucky, probably much luckier than Israel, that the attack failed, because the Israeli response would have been devastating. It would have to have been, because any non-devastating response would be read in the Arab world as an invitation to carry out more catastrophic terrorist attacks on Israel.

I don't know what the Israeli response would have been. Nobody knows, not even Ariel Sharon, and such a thing is inherently unknowable until the scenario actually takes place. But here are some likely candidates for a response to an attack that kills tens of thousands of Israelis: Expelling all Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza to Lebanon or Syria (possibly leading to war with Syria which would be an opportunity to get rid of that threat for at least a generation), expelling all West Bank Palestinians to the Gaza Strip, fire-bombing (or fuel-air bombing) Palestinian cities (which could leave hundreds of thousands or millions of Palestinians dead), nuking Syria and/or Iran for sponsoring Hamas."

If something like that happened, in which thousands of Israelis were killed, it would be interesting to see how media outlets report the death toll of the last two years after the number of Jewish dead comes to outnumber, by no small degree, the number of Palestinian dead. My prediction: Reuters and other such outlets would sign off with something along the lines of "Before last week's/month's bombing at the Pi Glilot gas facility, 550 Israelis and 1600 Palestinians had been killed in the violence."

Geez guys, this is beginning to sound like ClearGuidance........

a little too much of "lets exterminate the Palis".

A sensible analysis from, of all places, Ha'aretz.

d (#35)--I have often thought the same thing. Amazing, isn't it? Now which is the true religion of peace?

It would have been Israel's 9/11, but with a greater death toll.

Come to think of it, the Ha'aretz article I linked is sensible only in its recognition that Jerusalem Arabs are the fifth column.

The author doesn't make any obvious conclusions or recommendations, but that being Ha'aretz, they would probably run along the lines of "That's why, we should give up everything Arabs say is theirs."

"How come people are always worried about bad guys doing something clever and don't think that good guys can come up with some interesting plans also?"

How do you know that I don't think that good guys can come up with interesting plans? How do you know what people are "always" worried about? Are you clairvoyant, drunk, or just pathologically presumptuous?

If I recall correctly, the problem was having both gas AND fuel stored in the "Pi-Glilot" Depot.
The truck would cause the gas facilities to explode & then would the fuel ones.
(They are trying to separate them into two different sites now)
The newspapers showed a detailed map of the impact radius of such a blast.

If any of you are wondering how come it's so close to a densely populated civillian area, the reason is simple - look at the world map and measure the size of Israel - It's extremely tiny. We don't have any place else to put it in. Plus everyone now expect us to give away 50% for the "plight of the palestinians".

Would this really prompt a massacre of palestinians or even transfer? Hell no!.
But it would give Israel sufficient justification to dismantle the PA entirely - get rid of Yassir & his friends and even start a limited regional war - mainly the north front directly (HizbAllah & Syria) and Iran might get the Bushheir nuclear reactor bombed.
The reason I called this a limited regional war is Egypt isn't likely to get into such a war in my opinion since Syria always dragged them into wars only to double cross them later.

How dare he make such an assertion, when it [was] really due to the fluke chance that the truck happened to carry diesel fuel that that happened?

As far as I can recall, it was the fuel of the truck tractor what did not go off because the engine was diesel powered.

I'm going to quote myself:

The author doesn't make any obvious conclusions or recommendations, but that being Ha'aretz, they would probably run along the lines of "That's why, we should give up everything Arabs say is theirs."

Case in point.

Why, why, fucking why can't everybody just put a fucking sock in it and NOT offer the fucking savages this, that and the motherfucking other every fucking time they succeed in killing Jews???

At least this is honest reporting. Well, sort of. You just stop reading after these lyrical words:

Israel must give the Palestinians control over parts of the city [...]

... and fence them in, then throw away the key. Do they really want to turn Jerusalem into yet another Beirut? What for? We know all too well what the Palis would do next. Turn neighborhoods like Gilo into a firing range. Excellent. You got a nomination for all time fool, Mr. EX-mayor Kollek. Might as well shut up.

And this explains why the Palis in East Jerusalem can only vote in local elections (to have Kollek re-elected, I guess): "I think that we have to reach a deal. As part of the arrangement, something must be given to them (the Arabs)," in return for their indiscriminate killing of civilians. That sounds like an indirect incitement to murder, doesn't it?

as for 'world opinion,' or rather the Euroweenies, such a mega-attack would likely paralyze their reflexive anti-Jewish utterings for the minutes needed to make the Pals pay their 75 year bill in full.

Sorry to post these links again, but I think they suit the subject on hand quite nicely:

Close Encounters With Euro-small sausages: [Link: microsites.nme.com...]

The Sequel: [Link: microsites.nme.com...]