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-RetweetConcordia Riot Eyewitness Account

Wed, Sep 11, 2002 at 3:47:43 pm PDT

The media failed to report the true extent of the Palestinian rioting at Concordia University in Montreal. LGF reader Ted Belman forwarded us this eyewitness account of the riot, written by Sara Ahronheim.

————————————-

In April 2001 I sent out a letter detailing my experiences working as a street medic at the protests in Quebec City. Today I am sending a similar letter to you, however it is in regard to a radically different situation.

This morning my friends and I set out to Concordia University, in the heart of downtown Montreal, to hear Benjamin Netanyahu (former Prime Minister of Israel) speak. Many articles were featured in the Montreal papers leading up to today’s speech, warning of protest action. I had a good idea of what we would face as we approached Concordia, but I could never have predicted what actually happened once we were there.

To enter the building we had to make a giant circle around it, to get to the supposedly “safe” entrance. We had to walk right through a volatile protest of hundreds of Palestinians and their supporters in keffiyehs, with flags, screaming vitriolic hate. Once having run this gauntlet, we waited patiently outside the Bishop street entrance, held back at the gate by security and police. After about an hour they started admitting us inside, but it was too late because a huge group of Palestinian ‘demonstrators’ had appeared in our midst. I was fortunately right at the entrance, and as dozens of violent protesters pushed their way to the front, I tried to get through. Right next to me appeared the ringleader, who tried to push his way in. The cop in front of me punched him in the face while pulling me through the gate at the same time. I rested against the wall and watched as at least a hundred (I think) red-and-green coloured protesters attacked the barriers and tried to get in. Riot cops appeared, dozens of them, and went to the gate as I and a few others were herded into the building. There was yelling and chanting, drumming and fighting going on outside the doors, with hundreds of our people stuck behind the gate being abused by hundreds of violent demonstrators. A few of us were waiting after the metal detectors for our friends to come through, when all of a sudden we heard loud chanting and yelling INSIDE the building. The riot cops came storming in and up the stairs beside us, and we began hearing fighting, crashing, yelling, punching. Chaos broke out and riot cops made us run for the door to the auditorium - I thought we were going to get killed, I swear. It was the scariest feeling, because I knew that these people wanted to hurt me and anyone who supports Israel or is Jewish.

Once inside the auditorium, we were told to be patient as more people would drift in from the insanity outside. We waited inside for three hours, as the commotion outside grew increasingly loud. We could hear chanting and yelling, and the protesters began trashing the university building. The police tear gassed and pepper sprayed the entire building and outside, and we began to feel the effects if we stood too near the doors. After hours of waiting, and bomb searches by RCMP sniffer dogs, we were informed that Bibi Netanyahu could not speak after all - too much danger to him and to us.

This was an incredible disappointment and we were naturally upset. We however managed to maintain a kind of composure and instead of fighting, the 650 of us inside began to sing Hatikvah, the national anthem of the State of Israel. We sang peace chants and then just waited to be let out, in groups of 10, escorted by police.

The scene as we exited was disgusting. Benches were overturned, papers and garbage streaked across the hallways, and broken windows. We were shoved outside directly into a HUGE Palestinian riot, where some of our people were apparently attacked. The cops did nothing. We stood on one side of the barrier, while they stood on the other, and we faced off. On our side, we sang and danced and celebrated being free and Jewish. On their side, they threw bottles at people’s heads, screamed hatred, and tried to break the barriers down to hurt us. They started tossing pennies and coins at us - one of the oldest ways to taunt Jews by saying we’re all ‘money-grubbing’. While we sang Hatikvah arm in arm, they spat at us. Finally we decided to disperse and leave them to their hatred.

Today was a sick and sorrowful day not only for the Jewish students and community of Montreal, but for Jews everywhere, the city of Montreal and Canada. Today a man was gagged and not allowed to express an opinion; today hundreds of people were denied the opportunity to listen to him speak. Today a riot broke forth on our peaceful streets, and today no police managed to restrain hate. Today Montreal Jews were made to feel afraid for our lives, and today Jewish students were threatened in our own home. If we cannot express ourselves here in Canada, champion of free speech and human rights, where on earth can we do so? If we cannot feel safe in our own cities where we have grown up and thrived, where are we to go?

I can answer my own question with what many of us already know - Israel is our place. She is our homeland, and opens her arms to us, willing to protect us at all costs. The Jewish people need Israel, and she needs us.

Even so, we must voice our distaste at the violence which occurred in Montreal today. We must all take our own individual stands against this fascism, by which freedom of speech was denied. What happened today in my city cannot be condoned or allowed to repeat itself. We must act.

So I am sending you all this long letter, with my own personal feelings and an eyewitness account. Please do what you can to see that this message is spread to anyone you can think of - from friends to work associates, to politicians, and from Jews to non-Jews alike. We have a chance to fix these wrongs, but only if we take action and don’t sit back as passive observers.

We say NEVER AGAIN, but unless we protest these attacks on our freedoms, it is fruitless to put up that chant. Last but certainly not least, a personal lament on our situation: today I saw raw hatred, and it cut me to the core. I have never feared for my life as I did today. I have never feared for our free society the way I do today. I wish beyond anything that we can one day fix the agonizing rifts between our peoples, and erase the hate from our and their hearts alike.

Shanah Tovah to all Jewish readers of this letter, and a sweet year. To all non-Jewish readers: thank you for reading, and please understand what I am expressing here. It is most important for you to know what really happened here today, and it is vital that you see this side of the story.

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157 comments

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1 John  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 1:55:08pm

And these clowns (palisimians) think they are far enough removed from the animals to run their own country? Ha.

2 thnkr222  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:00:05pm

Why haven't I heard of this before? Why is the mainstream media supressing news?

3 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:01:15pm

I keep waiting for PETA to come out and start advocating for the Palestinians. After all, the Palestinians *are* animals, so isn't PETA abdicating its important role in our society by not leaping to their defense?

4 Jeff  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:03:15pm

I can't believe that the Canadian police let the protesters "win" and cancel the speech. They should have brought in numbers and cleaned out the streets.

Actually, I can believe it. After all, they were "only" attacking Jews and Israel.

5 GKarp  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:03:32pm

Sadly, the university has responded to the violence with a moratorium on public speaking on the middle east. A tragic capitulation.

[Link: www.concordia.ca...]

They do ask for feedback on their site, if anyone has anything to say.

6 ploome  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:05:01pm

im so sick of this..

I grew up in Montreal...I attended Concordia for one year...

its changed so much...

7 ploome  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:05:49pm

hi Thnkr...welcome

8 Cowardly Pundit  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:06:07pm

That's fucking it.

Nuke Mecca.

If Allah believes that Mecca is so damn special, he'll save it. Otherwise, get these GooseStepping dogs into the crosshairs and kill them.

Disgusting. They act more and more like Nazi's every day.

9 Elizabeth  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:08:32pm

I sent emails yesterday to both my Member of Parliament, The Hon. Tom Wappell for Scarborough SouthWest and to The Hon. Prime Minister Jean Chretien. This morning both responded asking for more detail. I will use your letter to fill them in on exactly what happened.

The gist of my letter was that Palestinians are coming to my country and importing their anger and their issues and damaging property and injuring people here in an effort to make their point. BB Netanyahu is expected to speak in Toronto later this week. I do NOT want to see this happen in Toronto, my hope town. I WANT to hear what he has to say.

No other immigrant group is allowed to import their issues and trash the host country and it must be the same with the Palestinians. We are willing to have debate on both sides of an issue, we are even willing to allow demonstrations with flags, etc. but we WILL NOT TOLERATE RIOTS. If the Palestinians feel the only way they can make their point is to riot then they will be barred from any further public demonstrations EVER! It's been done before--it can be done again.

Round them up, lock 'em up and ferry them home by steerage class! And that's what I put in my replies to the PM and my Member of Parliement in this mornings post.

Elizabeth

Here...have a biscuit, you'll feel better.

10 ploome  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:11:49pm

here is the text of the letter i sent them

Dear Sirs:

How can you claim...

" Today’s events have only reinforced Concordia’s stand on freedom of expression and its mission as an institution of higher learning. "

You have capitulated in the face of a terrorist gang, to cancel the speech of Mr. Netanyahu, and instituted a moratorium on all public speeches and rallies...the terrorists who issue fatwas against Salmon Rushdie, have sucessfully threatened Concordia into submission.

Expell all those who participated in violence and deport them.

I cry for the Concordia I knew, and the Montreal where I grew up.

11 Chris Werth  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:17:20pm

I read this account of the disgrace in Montreal and my heart bleeds for the Canadian people. It is no surprise that there is no peace in the Middle East given the actions and mindset of the "pro-Palestinian" demonstrators.

The only thing worse than the display of violence and hatred is the silence of those Canadians who are at the forefront of hatred and bigotry. I have yet to hear any condemnation of the rioters or sympathy for those attacked by the following:

Svend Robinson
Alexa McDonough
Any prominent Canadian Union Leader
Naomi Klein
Michele Landsberg
Judy Rebick
Maude Barlow
Rick Salutin
Haroon Siddiqui

Maybe its better that the above haven't spoken because they would likely excuse the actions of the rioters. How dare Jewish Canadians exercise their right of free speech and assembly.

All I hear in the media are the complaints of Canadian Muslims of "hate crimes" and "discrimination", yet the only tangible examples I'm finding are hate crimes perpetrated by Muslims against Canadians of Jewish descent.

This coddling of the terrorist mindset has to end.

12 Ronjon  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:17:26pm

Imagine if it was Arafat or Saint Mandela who was prevented from speaking. They'd have a royal commission up here, public hearings, hand wringing from the CBC and the Globe and Mail about "intolerance". This story is already disappearing from the radar in Canada.

Good luck writing your MP Elizabeth, I won't bother with mine, (Maria Minna), who's a typical head in the sand flunkey when it comes to topics such as terrorism, illegal immigration etc.

13 Ronjon  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:20:23pm

Chris, great list, add extremist lefty Linda Mcquaig to the roster too. Man there's lots more...

14 Chris Werth  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:25:34pm

Thanks Ronjohn. As I said, I'd probably prefer they not write about it because they'd somehow twist it that the J-E-W-S were to blame. More for the list:

Stevie Cameron
Carolyn Parrish (Hamas supporting MP)
Tom Walkom

Sarcasm on

and I'm waiting for Noam Chomsky's Media Manufacturing theory -- they decided to whitewash the whole affair to promote the Zionist cause

Sarcasm off

15 James  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:32:34pm

The media failed to report the true extent of the Palestinian rioting at Concordia University in Montreal.

What a shockeroo.

16 wipethemout  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:34:24pm

All of you Canadians in here. Here is what your
compatriots are reading

[Link: www.globebooks.com...]

From the Globe and Mail

#1 9-11
By Noam Chomsky

#2 Ghost Rider
By Neil Peart

#3 Stupid White Men
By Michael Moore

Canadians have the politicians, and the country they deserve.

17 Ronjon  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:34:59pm

Yes I haven't seen Cameron (who wrote a hatchet job "investigation" of Mulroney) doing any exposes on Chretien...gee whiz wonder why?

Yes Carolyn Parrish made some unbelievable statements praising Hamas, she got away with it of course. If she was an Alliance MP from out west talking about official bilingualism or multiculturalism you'd never hear the end of it. I could go on an on...

18 Fay Greenwood  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:40:48pm

Chris, excellent list. You forgot my MP (who I won't be bothered writing to either) that great defender of human rights "they're burning crosses in Prince George as I speak" Hedy (muliculturism is my middle name) Fry.

19 J Lichty  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:43:58pm

I'd probably prefer they not write about it because they'd somehow twist it that the J-E-W-S were to blame

They usually don't blame the Jews outright for these riots rather the make it seem as if both parties are to blame Phrases like "clash between Israeli and Palestinian protestors" or Demonstrations by Palestinian and Israeli protestors "broke out into violence," oOr "violence between Palestinian and Israeli demonstrators" are the common ways in which the media absolves the Palestinians from the tar of instigation and unruliness.

The SFSU incident gave us a pretty good blueprint for academic and media reaction to peaceful Jewish gatherings turning into Kristallnact.

They must look at us in the West and think. You cowards will not stop us.

I did like the description of the Mountie puching one of them in the face, I bet that martyr wasn't expecting that Sunday surprise.

20 dan truly  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:47:59pm

good god look at that guy's fucking UNIBROW!!

21 Ronjon  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:52:39pm

The Toronto Star said that the Palestinian protesters "overran campus security and occupied the building". Sounds like a nice little sit-in at the dean's office.

22 Clutch  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:57:04pm

When will the West learn that these Pali b*st*rds that leave their dung-heap countries and come to our (American/Canadian) shores are nothing more than an invading army, bent on destroying our way of life by sheer f*cking numbers? Close the borders to all ME immigration, deport all those involved in these militant actions, or better yet, line them up and use them for target practice (after all, they are army troops out of uniform=spies and the Geneva Convention says it is OK to shoot such combatants).

"Cry Havoc! And let slip the dogs of war..."

23 A. van Hilten  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 2:59:40pm

The tenor of comments posted here is asking for some remarks about how the 'racist morons' on LGF are taking over. Just wait and see...

24 Charles Tupper Jr  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:03:47pm

Maybe in la Belle Province it is still None is Too Many, but then again I'm biased. ;)

1938-Mackenzie King [Canada's PM] recorded in his diary that any action permitting an appreciable number of Jews to settle in Canada would undermine the unity of the Nation. He said "This is no time for Canada to act on humanitarian grounds, but that Canada must be guided by realities and political considerations."

The realities he had in mind were the attitudes toward refugees in general and Jews in particular within Quebec.

Almost every French-language newspaper had warned the government against opening Canada's doors to European Jews. Le Devoir asked "Why let in Jews?" This was a mild reaction compared to other vicious Anti-Semitic utterances that appeared in La Nation L'Action Catholique and L'Action Nationale. Three Quebec M.P.'s spoke out against the Jews. Wilfrid LaCroix, C.H. Leclerc and H.E. Brunelle led the anti-refugee onslaught. In the House of Commons Brunelle said "Jews have caused great difficulties wherever they have lived." .

128,000 members of the St.Jean Baptiste society signed a petition opposing all immigration and especially Jewish immigration, which Lacroix delivered to the Commons.

25 wipethemout  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:09:02pm

Charles #24

Get a clue! Concordia is an university for ANGLOPHONES! as in people who speak ENGLISH!

26 Ariel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:16:52pm

A.,

The other day people were being quite racist. Here they are being more civilized.

Though I might not always say the things that others are - I would call them Paleostinians, but not Paleo-simians.

I think that's fair. They live in the Paleolithic age. While they act like animals, I just can't call anyone an animal. It makes me feel like the people who call Jews pigs and monkeys.

27 jsing3r  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:20:18pm

In April 2001 I sent out a letter detailing my experiences working as a street medic at the protests in Quebec City. Today I am sending a similar letter to you, however it is in regard to a radically different situation.

I've got to say -- as you sow, so shall you reap. Did she really imagine that planned, ritualized street combat was only going to be used to disrupt activities she opposes?

By the way, comments like #1 (And these clowns (palisimians) think they are far enough removed from the animals to run their own country?) and #3 are as offensive as any of the stuff I see translated on MEMRI. Charles, you used to delete comments you found offensive. It's your site and I'm not telling you how to run it but it would be a lot more persuasive to non-nitwit readers if you axed posts like those.

28 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:20:39pm

Here's the Muslims in Montreal's take on this:

Islamic Association for Palestine

[Link: www.montrealmuslimnews.net...]

Scroll halfway down this page to read what "several Montreal-area activists" propose:

Montreal Muslim News Network

[Link: www.yourmailinglistprovider.com...]

Courtesy of Amnah Muna [Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]

29 Dar ul-Harbarian  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:21:09pm

You guys may be racist morons but I haven't heard of any anti-muslim and anti-palestinian riots.

I haven't heard of Jewish extremists blowing up buildings in Paris or Brussels because of EU funding of the Palestinian Authority.

I haven't heard of Jewish suicide bombers attacking German nightclubs because their grandfathers were kicked out of their homes and gassed decades ago.

I haven't heard of Jewish clerics calling for the death of Christians because of centuries of pogroms and oppression.

Why is it justified and rightous for Palestinians and Muslims to vent their frustrations with violence yet people who are willing to call a spade a spade are labled the intolerant racists?

30 Charles Tupper Jr  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:23:15pm

From Ipsos-Reid:

Regionally, support for Israel is strongest in British Columbia (25%) and Alberta (21%), followed by Atlantic Canada (19%), Ontario (18%) and Saskatchewan/Manitoba (12%). While residents of Quebec (8%) are least likely to say they support the Israeli side.

Support for the Palestinians is stronger in Quebec (18%), followed by Ontario (13%), British Columbia and Alberta (both at 9%). Residents of Atlantic Canada (6%) and Saskatchewan/Manitoba (5%) are least likely to express support for the Palestinians.

31 Maine's Michael  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:35:26pm

Dar ul-harbian:

Well said.

You know the answer.

Jews have no right to self defense, no right to protection from the country of which they are citizens, no right to earn or utilize the power or wealth their abilities result in, and, finally, no right to express hatred and exact vengeance as other people do.

I never thought about it before, but the world expects the jew to act like Jesus, sort of, while it denigrates him as the spawn of the devil.

32 Simian Conspiracy  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:37:36pm

What would have been the global reaction if rioters had shut down Hanan Ashrawi's speech today at Colorado College?

There would be counter-riots and terrorist attacks throughout the world, a U.N. "fact-finding" commission, emergency funding appeals from human rights groups and the ACLU, a groveling apology from Colin Powell; and global economic sanctions against Colorado Springs, if not the whole of the USA.

I wonder why the self-appointed speech authorities have so little time for utterances like "pigs and monkeys"? Unlike the occasional anonymous excess here, these are officially approved statements gleefully supported by a large part of the population.
Obviously, "peace-activists" who can rationalize suicide bombings and the barbaric torture of alleged collaborators would have little trouble with the selective application of their own self-serving speech rules.

33 wipethemout  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:47:41pm

From Ipsos-Reid:

Those provinces indicating the largest proportion of those indicating that they are now personally more suspicious are Alberta (up 17 points, from 21% to 38%) and Quebec (up 15 points, from 30% to 45%).

Other provincial findings include those from Saskatchewan/Manitoba (up 7 points, from 21% to 28%), Ontario (up 6 points, from 28% to 34%) and Atlantic Canada (up 4 points, from 28% to 32%).

34 Will Dickinson  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:47:43pm

Comment #30.


Makes me Proud to say I am from BC. Born, Bred and raised. Israal has shown far more patience than I ever would have in thier place. One of these days the gloves will come off and then this whole sorry mess will be solved once and for all. The only sad part is that 9% of BC'ers are idiots.

35 chukcha  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:48:41pm

This is coming here too.

Despite the "war on terrorism" Islam is in ascendancy, and the West lacks the will and conviction to fight back.

And of course, the West has never protected the Jews. Yesterday it was in France and Belgium. Today it is Germany and Canada.

Tomorrow the US.

36 Donna V.  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:52:24pm

This is an appalling story written by a young Jewish woman who showed up to protest a neo-Nazi march in D.C. and was screamed at, threatened, and spat at by the "anti-Nazi" activists because she was carrying an Israeli flag.

[Link: search.washingtonjewishweek.com...]

37 Just John  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:53:03pm

Neat photo... you can tell the good guys by their white, er, helmets!

And I strongly doubt that there will be sharia law displacing the US constitution any time soon. Islam doesn't seem to be "ascending" anywhere; all of the theocratic countries suck.

38 la4israel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:54:56pm

When will the keffiyeh finally become as politically incorrect as a swastika?!?

39 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 3:57:40pm

jsing3r says:
---
By the way, comments like #1 (And these clowns (palisimians) think they are far enough removed from the animals to run their own country?) and #3 are as offensive as any of the stuff I see translated on MEMRI.
---

As the author of #3, I want to say you're absolutely right. I shouldn't have called the Palestinians animals. That's an insult to animals everywhere.

Just callin' 'em like I see 'em. As Sista Souljah once said, "If the truth hurts, you shall be in pain."

40 Michael Glazer  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:00:12pm

All people who have denied the Nazis, jew-hatred, and anti-semitism, especially Jews, welcome to the 21st century!

Remember, the Jew haters know you are Jews and they don't care if your a liberal or conservative jew.

Remember and learn from the past.

To forget the past is to relive history

41 Michael Glazer  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:08:29pm

Calling a human savage a animal is an insult to the animals not the savages.

You see animals do not choose their behaviour human savages do, therefore, they are worse.

42 A. van Hilten  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:10:02pm

Talking about Canadians... Isn't it funny that Neil Young had to be the one who'd write a song about the heroism displayed by the passengers of Flight 93?

43 J Lichty  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:19:15pm

Although I think the Paleostinian invective is more apt, I don't think that calling them Palesimians is the equivelent of being racist.

It is a slur on their behavior not their race.

Palestinians are not a race, but Arabs, indistinguishable from Arabs living in the other arbitrarily created emirates throughout the Mideast.

Let us not let our fear of being branded racists define down what racism really is. While you may not agree with his name, I don't hink that it raises to the level of racism.

There is an appreciable difference from saying that all Jews are decended from pigs and monkeys because they simply exist, and referring to animal and ape-like behavior exhibited in by the mainstream of Palestinian society.

No one can dispute that the Palestinians have exhibited some very primitive forms of "self-expression." Suicide/Homocide, fratricide and uncontrollable rage are all traits exhibited by animals in the wild, so I think the parallel is valid to point out.

This animalisitc behavior is distinguishable from the other great form of genocide, the Nazi's who worked with a human-like effieciency at their grizzly deed (no animal pun intended). Therfore I believe it is apt to describe their behavior in terms of its similarity to the animal kingdom.

I have in the past referred to the Palestinians as animals not because of what they were born as, but because what they have become. So-long as they continue to renounce the norms of human behavior by committing some atrocity based upon their blood lust, I will consider it to be animal-like.

That being said, of course I do consider Arabs and Palestinians to be humans, they just need to start acting more like humans and less like animals (unless of course humankind would like to take a step backward).

This comments section is one place where p.c. thuggery should have to wait outside. If someone is truly being a racist, let them have it, but lets not dummy it down like the Palestinians have done with all other words descriptive of their behavior like Nazi, Apartheid, Terrorism (all of which are the nom dujour for Israelis).

44 Clutch  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:26:44pm

Always cracks my a$$ up when I read some Islamofacist admonishing the West about its' "hate speech" when their press and media gush more filth and trash than a Bombay sewerpipe. Go clean up your own filthy pig-sty before venturing here to complain.

Oh, wait, we're coming over to help you clean up. We'll be sending the Boeing & Lockheed Cleaning Crew over real soon now...

Watch the pig-$hit fly...

45 Booky Binder  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:37:29pm

I didn't know where to put this but here is famous book critic John Bradley's top 9/11 Booklist -- shockingly, Pilger, Chomsky and Micki Moore (he didn't get the first name right either) are on the list.

[Link: www.arabnews.com...]

I'm surprised that French book didn't make it on the list (or maybe it did).

46 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:43:45pm

As I understand it, racism is the belief that people are inferior or superior based on biology. And this is irrational. Palestinians are certainly not biologically inferior to anyone.

However, they and their brethren obviously are culturally inferior--to just about everyone. The gap between Arab cultural achievement and Arab pride needs to be measured in light-years. And if this cultural inferiority didn't have tragic consequences, it would be the gift of comedy that kept on giving.

As it stands, this juxtaposition of Arab pride and Arab non-achievement in the context of their honor/shame cultural drives them mad. It causes them to resent and kill Jews and, in the case of al-Qaeda, Americans as well. Any time I pause and think, maybe I'm being too hard on them, I always remember Jewish babies in strollers getting blown up as they come out of synagogues and people jumping from the World Trade Center rather than being burned to death. And you know what, any semblance of compassion I might otherwise have had for them goes out the window.

So while other people might have a hard time calling them animals, it's certainly black and white to me. They need to be put down.

47 Duke  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:44:50pm

#26

Ariel, your post is music to the ears.

48 Michael Glazer  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 4:45:37pm

What do you do with a rabid animal that is loose in a city street where innocent children are at play in their schoolyard?

49 Duke  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:01:45pm

#43 / J Lichty,

dude although referring to people you hate as animals makes for nice poetical symmetry, I can't think of any species that has so mastered "genocide/fratricide/homicide and pesticide" so completely as humans. They are, to our collective credit, supremely human traits. So lay off the animals...

50 passingas  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:02:29pm

charley say's... "at least a hundred (i think)red and green coloured protesters." ... "the650 of us inside began to sing hatikvah."... " a huge palestinian riot, where some of our people were apparently attacked.) ... red pals and green frogs? 650 of our people and ("at least 100 (i think) pals and frogs. bull shit? chicken shit?...both! gotta go i'm being apparently attacked. ...the f.d.n.y. needs heros like you.

51 Michael Glazer  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:02:41pm

The Difference

arabs sacrifice themselves to kill others.

Americans sacrifice themselves to save others.

52 A. van Hilten  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:07:50pm

What are you talking about passingas?

53 Ariel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:15:12pm

J,

Let us not let our fear of being branded racists define down what racism really is. While you may not agree with his name, I don't hink that it raises to the level of racism.

Yup. That was my point. It makes me uncomfortable. I wouldn't do it.


There is an appreciable difference from saying that all Jews are decended from pigs and monkeys because they simply exist, and referring to animal and ape-like behavior exhibited in by the mainstream of Palestinian society.

Yes there is a difference. It's unfortunate that they're genocidal. That doesn't change my lack of comfort.


No one can dispute that the Palestinians have exhibited some very primitive forms of "self-expression." Suicide/Homocide, fratricide and uncontrollable rage are all traits exhibited by animals in the wild, so I think the parallel is valid to point out.

I've never heard of a genocide bombing deer. Or a suicide committing chimp.

I don't think the Paleostinians are the epidemy of ethics, by any stretch of the imagination. But let's stick to calling them reasonable names. Not calling them apes, monkeys, simians, whatever.

This comments section is one place where p.c. thuggery should have to wait outside. If someone is truly being a racist, let them have it, but lets not dummy it down like the Palestinians have done with all other words descriptive of their behavior like Nazi, Apartheid, Terrorism (all of which are the nom dujour for Israelis).

Yes. I was saying that it bothers me. I made it clear that people were not being really racist here. But, if you look at the post A Van Hilten linked to, I think you will find that people were there. And some people let them have it. Again, I don't think people were going overboard here. And I don't criticize people based on the PC argument - just that it bothers me. Not that it is wrong for you to say whatever you say.

54 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:24:53pm

If we're looking for something "civilized" to call the Palestinians, I nominate "the nation of player-haters" due to their murderous jealousy of the Jews on account of the Jews' obvious cultural superiority. And if you wanna get jiggy with it, you can simply call 'em "playa hatahs."

Jealously will get you nowhere, except mocked and ridiculed.

55 rickmcginnis  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:43:28pm

A bit of Montreal context for non-Canadian readers...

It's really not surprising to hear about this kind of rabid rioting in Quebec, since the modern history of the province is basically that of a mythology of victimization becoming the defining mindset of the majority - francophone Quebecois, or "pur laine" as they call themselves colloquially ("pure wool").

Quebecois nationalism, and the separatist/sovereignist movement that rose out of the ashes of Catholic nationalism in the 60s and 70s (the so-called "quiet revolution") is based on the idea that Quebecois are the "n*****s of Canada", systematically discriminated against and marginalized by English Canada, and the power elites in Ontario specifically. That perhaps a third of Canada's prime ministers - including the current one - have been Quebecois, or elected from Quebec ridings, and that no ruling government can hope to survive without courting Quebec interests, is tactfully ignored in the formulation of this myth.

Like most myths, it has its basis in fact - once upon a time, an anglo minority did wield enormous influence on the business culture and economy of Quebec, but political power always rested with francophones, and that hasn't changed, even when the separatist Parti Quebecois has held a stronghold on the province's government for a quarter of a century, and the Bloc Quebecois - a federal party devoted to advancing the cause of separatism - holds a huge chunk of seats in national parliament.

(Ironically, Montreal lost its status as the "first city" of Canada, home to most of its major banks and business headquarters, when the rise of Quebec nationalism scared almost all of these institutions south to Toronto - thank you, PQ! This inaugurated a period of decline in the province, from which it has bounced back, thanks to a combination of federal money and the tech industries that younger Quebecois have founded.)

Quebecois nationalism once had an overt strain of antisemitism - as noted above - which has in time been replaced by a covert anti-immigrant feeling among PQ old guard types like the former premiere who blamed losing the last referendum on separation (by a narrow .5%!) on "the immigrant vote". It was around this time - the first Yugoslav civil war - that the PQ took to comparing themselves with Bosnians, and casting themselves as victims of a kind of ethnic cleansing, despite the fact that the province of Quebec nets huge transfer payments from the federal gov't, and has enacted laws like Bill 101, the notorious "language law" that prevents any English signage in Quebec - despite the country's official policy of bilingualism - enforced by a "language police" even.

It's no surprise that, in this climate, similar demonstrations of belligerent cultural self-pity can thrive; Quebecois separatists have made an art out of painting themselves as victims, which has turned St. Jean Baptiste Day into a kind of Ulsterman's march, so why shouldn't other "newcomers" to the province. The province - and Montreal in particular - has always been a fertile home to fringe movements, from the Solar Temple to the Raelians to terrorists in hiding. Terrorism - in the form of the FLQ, Canada's own Red Brigades - actually has a respected place in the mythic history of separatist struggles, and a body count as well, which includes a kidnapped and murdered provincial gov't minister, during the October 1970 crisis, which put Montreal under martial law. The killers of Pierre LaPorte, by the way, are still alive, and living free in La Belle Province.

Just in case anyone thought Canada was a dull place.

56 Denny Wilson  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:43:58pm

But ... But ... I thought Islam was a religion of peace.

57 James  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 5:47:28pm

And of course, the West has never protected the Jews. Yesterday it was in France and Belgium. Today it is Germany and Canada.

Tomorrow the US.

As a card carrying J-E-W I must strongly disagree and loudly protest.

It is not that I do not know history. It is that I do know history.

58 John  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:00:18pm

As poster #1, I'll tell you why I used 'palisimians'.

I'm an enignneer and my grammer and spelling suck. They have since about the 2nd grade. I know how to spell 'simian', while I would have to go check 'stinian' (and if that is wrong, then I still haven't checked).

Now I realize 'paleositnian' gets my point across better in that I think that they are stuck in a 600 year old time warp. I will stick to my guns that the avarage Palestinian death-cultist probably can't run his or her own country effectivly.

Personally, I like to keep it simple. If my neighbor keeps their stereo down and doesn't hurt anyone, they are good people. If they stand out in the yard and bitch a lot, they are annoying. If they chant about killing the next town over because they lost a few wars and have to settle for the 1 acre lot instead of the 2, then its time to start evicting.

I think that individuals, not groups (or races, as the vicitimologists like to call them) are dicks. Normally, most people in the group are ok people. In the case of the palestinians (and I think arab leadership as a whole), the majority are playing that stereo too loud, and this is through left-leaning media lenses. They have an image problem, and if Islam really is a faith of peace, then the moderates better start speaking louder. (I'll even use Christianity as a benchmark, which equates to a limbo bar 1" from the ground). Someone please prove me wrong here.

I guess my point is: to those who think I'm being racist, Jesus called, and he would like you to eat shit and die. I'm sorry that the world is too complicated for you.

And yes, the animal quip is probably a little harsh. I don't have that filter between by brain and my mouth. If it really offends you, then please re-read the paragraph above.

59 Westoner  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:03:40pm

In the picture, one of the 'Palestinians' looks suspiciously white (he of the red tea cloth on the head). He wouldn't be one of our Nelson Mandela’s whitey J-E-W-S by any chance? Clearly a mossad agent. It’s only what some people are saying.

60 Gidget  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:09:06pm

Here is the text from the email I just sent to Concordia University... I hope it shows that not all Canadians are wishy-washy-tree-hugging-granola-eating morons.

I cannot believe what I saw on the news and read in the papers concerning Mr. Netanyahu's speech... how could your university allow such a riot to take place? You should be ashamed of yourselves. Where does it state anywhere that foreign students have more rights than citizens of Canada? It is appalling to think that this school did nothing to clamp down on these Palestinian *protestors*... and endangered the lives of Israeli supporters - Jews and non-Jews alike. When do you ever see Jews protesting that there are possible terrorists attending your school?
I read your press release... you are having the *student status reviewed* of students who broke the law? Expel them!! Kick them out and force them back to their own country. This is CANADA, not the West Bank. We do not tolerate such behavior or these savage acts. I realize that we are supposed to be tolerant of all other races, religions, etc - but letting these people attack innocent people is just wrong. It screams of evil and hate - against Israel, Canada, and Canadian Jews and Christians.
I am so sick of seeing the Jewish communities attacked - both in Montreal and in Toronto, where I live. I have been to your University and right now feel ashamed to be Canadian and therefore associated with this atrocity.
Freedom of expression is fine and good, but when the *expression* is to throw rocks and punches at innocent people, there needs to be much more done to prevent this.
I trust this matter will not be taken lightly. It's awful enough that we have to see this behavior on the news from overseas, but here? In our own country? Never again.

61 Infidel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:25:40pm

Were are the Leftist scum whining about freedom of speech? Montreal, they speak French there do they not, that would explain a lot.

62 kathyn  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:35:46pm

Thanks to Ted for forwarding Sara's story. We could wait a thousand years and never get this information from mainstream news. And I don't believe that most of the people who write responses to this site are rascist, but rather just tired of all the PC that's being shoved down our throats.

63 Q  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:36:49pm

Tomorrow the US.

I'm not quite sure what you would like to loudly protest, James, but if you think it absolutely can't happen in the US, I must, unfortunately, disagree.

The high degree of success and assimilation among the Jews of Germany are well known - as well as their genuine and intense German patriotism.

Just because today in the US Jews enjoy the freedom and prosperity unparalleled in their history doesn't mean it can't all be taken away. As the unassimilated third-world immigration increases (though admittedly, the situation is much less dire than in Europe) the ground beneath our feet may become less than steady.

We all know about the peace-loving muslims - both imported and homegrown (e.g. NOI). But also, ~25% of American-born and 44% of foreign-born Hispanics hate the J-U-D-I-O-S. What's to stop the crackpot racist whitey-and-hymie-hating La Raza from becoming a major player tomorrow, when the population dynamics irreversibly shifts in its favor.

The above is the worst-case scenario, of course. But still - long live the Second Amendment: when La Raza comes for us, at least we'll put up a goot fight.

64 Q  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:38:10pm

That's "good fight". Been a long day.

65 Thumper  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:40:56pm

Here is a link to the text of the speech Benjamin Netanyahu was going to give at Concordia. It was published in the Globe and Mail Wednesday.

[Link: www.globeandmail.com...]

66 Burp  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 6:47:39pm

passingas,

I suggest you lay off the nitrous oxide for a while.

67 Corvus  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:06:08pm

Rick # 55. You have done a superb job of encapsulating the political and moral culture of Quebec. I have nothing to add. Good job.

Some posters here have expressed dismay at some of the "racist" or "extremist" comments made on this discussion thread.

I have to say, honestly, after I read the vivid account of the eyewitness to the riot, that my first inclination was to call for the extermination of each and every last one of those scumbag motherf***ers, followed by a total nuclear strike on the middle east. Let Allah sort out the ashes.

But in the interest of keeping this discussion civilized and free of racial/religious bias, I will refrain from making such inflammatory remarks. Instead, I will take a deep breath and try to explain why I, and perhaps others, tend to react in the manner that we do. Ok. I've cooled down.

I suspect that a lot us are frustrated and angry about the blatant double standard that exists in our country. Concordia is a prime example. It's fine for the Paleostinians to riot, intimidate, vandalize property and create mayhem, but just let anyone else try it and the police would be on them in double quick time. It is fine for Muslims to preach hatred for Jews and Christians but we can't even criticise Islam for its extremist views. Oh no. "Islam is peace" we are told. "Most Muslims are not like that". "Most Muslims only want to live in peace with their neighbours". Thus far, I have seen little evidence to support this contention but this being Canada, I am not allowed to challenge this assertion.

To put it in simpler terms, those of us who disagree with the liberal left dogma, have no voice in Canadian society. None whatsover. We are all screaming into a windstorm.

I've sent countless messages to LGF describing the liberal-left dogma that has permeated Canadian society for the past three decades, as have many other Canadians on this site. These dogmas have manifested themselves in many negative forms including the type of behaviour that we recently witnessed in Montreal. We tolerate it, therefore it continues to occur. To add insult to injury, we even fund it in the form of grants and loans to so-called "cultural" organizations. Many of our universities have become hotbeds for Marxism, feminism, activism and any other "isms" which call for the downfall of western civilization because it is inherently evil.

To add insult to injury, not only do we pay for this rabble through our taxes, but we have no choice in the matter.

When thugs run rampant in your country and when authorities refuse to take action in the name of tolerance, diversity, etc. etc., some us get a tad frustrated. So to sum it all up, please indulge us in the occasional flare up of primal anger and resentment. These are just manifestations of our frustrations and on a fear for our survival as a civilization.

To Elizabeth: good luck with your letter but don't expect any concrete action. The Liberals depend upon the "ethnic" vote for their power; ergo, they will do nothing to threaten those votes. In any case, the Liberals have already demonstrated, time and again, an anti-Semitic and anti-American bias. The greatest Liberal of all time -- Pierre Trudeau -- whom all other liberals look upon as a god, was an anti-semite and an enemy of the US. For some reason which escapes me, these soft-headed Liberals seem to believe that the world would be a better place is the likes of Yasser Assfat were running the show.

Arggghhh! Serenity now, serenity now. Islam is peace. Islam is peace. Islam is peace.

I despair when I see what has happened to my country.

68 Glen Wishard  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:06:09pm

I saw Netanyahu on Fox today, but I saw no mention of the cancelled speech in Montreal, let alone any mention of the riot. Did anyone see major news coverage?

69 James  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:11:50pm

The high degree of success and assimilation among the Jews of Germany are well known - as well as their genuine and intense German patriotism.

Bah, I'm too tired to get into it now.

That's not a good parallel. The United States and its people have been tolerant of Jews and Judaism since its inception, an era of 'enlightenment' when such tolerance was otherwise unthinkable. Germany was an intensely antisemitic country -- Hitler and the Holocaust didn't mysteriously grow in a vacuum.

Much more to say; I'll try to say it later.

70 M. Simon  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:15:59pm

jsing3r,

The truth is not racist. The pals are animals. They are not civilized. They are incapable of creating a government that has at least a minimal concern for the citizens of that government.

71 Ariel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:24:58pm

Corvus,

I have to say, honestly, after I read the vivid account of the eyewitness to the riot, that my first inclination was to call for the extermination of each and every last one of those scumbag motherf***ers, followed by a total nuclear strike on the middle east. Let Allah sort out the ashes.

I felt the same way after 9/11. I feel the same way every time there's an attack in the US or in Israel. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

I find it funny to say, "yeah, nuke em". It worries me a little when people go overboard is all.

I suspect that a lot us are frustrated and angry about the blatant double standard that exists in our country. Concordia is a prime example. It's fine for the Paleostinians to riot, intimidate, vandalize property and create mayhem, but just let anyone else try it and the police would be on them in double quick time. It is fine for Muslims to preach hatred for Jews and Christians but we can't even criticise Islam for its extremist views.

Everyone should be held to the same standard. And the fact that these Paleostinians chose to riot instead of discussing their views with Bibi says a lot about them.

The fact that Lebanese raped Australians because they were white doesn't change that it was a racial hate crime.

***

And Q,

Check out this website:

http...

The website of Voz de Aztlan. I don't think it's wholly representative of Hispanic views of Jews. However, the fact that this exists is a bit disturbing.

I pray that the Hispanics assimilate as they come into this country and that the rate of anti-semitism in their population continues to drop.

72 Will Dickinson  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:28:48pm

You know what really burns my ass? This incessant need of our liberal left to apologize for simply being from the western civilization. I mean really when was the last time any government in the west fired weapons on any kind of demonstrators? It was at Kent State in the 60's in which 4... 4 people died. There was a justifiable outcry by all Americans over this. It has never happened again. When some loony fruitball flys a plane into the Twin Towers we do not have to apoloigize for it. We are the victime not the people who plotted this murder. The people who lost loved ones are the victims not the murders who flew the plane.

Is it our fault these countries have no free speech, no free press? Is it our fault these people come from countries where the leadership stays in power through the use of balatant force to terrorize the popualtion? They have leaders who steal, kill, torture and maim to justify thier own leadership. Does any leader of the western world use torture to stay in power?

Absolutley not. Why then when they attack us is it our fault. We did not force them at gunpoint to commit these hienous acts. They did it on thier own. They are at fault not us.

The next time somew idiot spouts off about how we should apoligize, walk over and smack him upside the head. Then when he goes to apoligize for provoking you, smack him again. When he gets up, smack him again. Repeat enough times and he will get angry and fight back. Then welcome him into the real world.

73 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:44:09pm

Will Dickenson #72,

You're obviously right, but the reason it's our fault is because it's easier for the third world to have a scapegoat than it is for them to get their act together.

Think about it, if you were in their position and had to face the reality of a miserable life brought about by tyranny, the yoke of Islam, the honor/shame culture, lack of opportunity, poor education, ad nauseum, you would probably find it easier to rationalize that your failure is the fault of someone else rather than exacerbating your misery by recognizing that you're a talentless human being.

Having the West to blame is a security blanket. Imagine how courageous they would have to be to drop this security blanket and actually try to succeed, build, achieve, prosper, and learn. If they failed at it, oh my gosh, what would that say about them? That they actually are inferior? That would be too much for their psyche to bear given their enormous (detached-from-reality, mind you) sense of pride they have. So it's a total cop out for them to blame the West, it keeps the pressure off of them from actually having to perform. Throw into the mix the incredible achievements in only 50 years of Israel in their own backyard and they're essentially scared to compete. It's always easier to be the victims.

How does the quote go? "Rationalization is more important than sex...ever go a week without rationalization?" The Middle East is rationalization of failure on a 500-million-person wide scale.

74 Duke  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:45:49pm

#72,

Who's apologizing?

I don't quite understand the intricacies of the last paragraph, but I like the tone. Smackin' is fun, Yehaaa!

75 Ariel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 7:51:42pm
the honor/shame culture

If the Arabs had honor, we wouldn't have Islamikazes.

True shame cultures are East Asian cultures. And some of them, such as Japan, are successful anyway.

Other than that, couldn't agree more.

76 Will Dickinson  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:03:05pm

I can undertand why the third world countries blame us. What I can't understand is why people who live here in the west essentailly blame themselves. Even our teachings in school tell us that true civilization began in the east. We always here about the great achievments of the early Egyptians in building the pyramids yet totally ignore the fact that people in Europe were creating hill monumuents that dwarf the pyramids in scope at a much earlier date, except as some half hour program on some nature channel. As a society we have to stop taking the worlds ills as our own. We can help, but we can't hold ourselves responsible for thier failures.

As for my last paragraph it simply demostates
what any sane person already knows. At some point you have to stand up for yourself and quit worrying about what the other guy thinks. If you don't help yourself nobody will.

77 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:08:32pm

Ariel,

It's their perception of honor, not ours. To them it's honorable to kill Jews, honorable to be "martyrs," etc. And it's shameful that 250 million Arabs can't displace 7 million Jews. Shameful that Israel has more patents granted to its citizens than the entire Arab world combined (by a large margin, I believe). Shameful that in thousands of years they couldn't do anything with barren desert, while Israel comes in and 50 years later (and well within that time) it's a thriving democracy, with incredible technological achievements. So they're definitely working under an honor/shame paradigm (ever notice how many times the word "humiliation" is used by Palestinian mouthpieces such as Saeb "End game" Erekat in articles about IDF incursions into the West Bank and Gaza?--he also always says something to the effect of "Ah, now we see what Sharon's 'end game' really is..., hence the nickname).

And ultimately this shame and resentment and feeling of inferiority on the part of the player-hating Palestinians is the cause of their subhuman behavior. A collective knee to the groin should wake them up. Faster, please.

78 Martin  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:09:17pm

It looks like PETA is supporting the Palestinian rioters at Concordia after all.

[Link: www.geocities.com...]

79 Duke  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:15:37pm

#76

I think what some people may feel guilty about is an unequal sharing of the world's resources. And it's big of you, being able to understand third world resentment. But I liked this...

"We always here about the great achievments of the early Egyptians in building the pyramids yet totally ignore the fact that people in Europe were creating hill monumuents that dwarf the pyramids in scope at a much earlier date, except as some half hour program on some nature channel."

Dude that's awesome, I never heard anything like that at all. And even if it were true what the f*!k does that mean anyway.

80 E. Nough  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:16:17pm

Donna has already posted this story above, but I thought it important enough to mention again. I forget where I first saw it.

As I walked deeper and deeper through the crowd of protesters [against Nazis marching at the Capitol], waving the Israeli flag high and proud above my head, I began to feel less and less welcome. I marched on, waving the flag even higher so each and every neo-Nazi could see the flag of the Jewish people.

Suddenly I realized that the cries and jeers at the sight of the flag, originated not from the neo-Nazis, but from the anti-Nazi protesters.

Read the whole thing -- nothing in there should surprise most LGF readers, but the perspective is certainly different.

81 Ariel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:25:42pm

rcm,

Yes.

But I think that the shame cultures of East Asia have contributed some things to the world. Honor/shame cultures are not inherently evil. Most of the other things in your list are.

tyranny, the yoke of Islam, the honor/shame culture, lack of opportunity, poor education, ad nauseum

82 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:32:01pm

Why would anyone feel guilty about unequal sharing of the world's resources? If other countries had our industrial and technological base and our need for resources, they'd be using similar amounts of resources. They just can't get their collective acts together that's all.

Why should we feel guilty about that? It would simply be feeling guilty because we're successful. That would only be called for if our success wasn't a product of hard work, sacrifice, noble political and economic systems that cultivate freedom, security, and reward hard work and sacrifice (and recognize the proper incentives that spur human beings to flourish). No one handed our success to us as a nation (America) on a silver platter. It was earned, sometimes by spilling blood to make the world a safer place. The notion that we should feel guilty about success is beyond ridiculous, it's dangerous--because it obfuscates the moral clarity we need to combat the savages at the gates.

83 krystal  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:32:55pm

wow, you complain that you (and Israel herself) felt hurt by the insults the palestinian demonstrators directed at you and then i read here that you refer to them as "animals" (re: comment that PETA should protect them) ...no wonder they hate you so much, shame on you.

84 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:35:24pm

Ariel,

I gotcha, I see your point. And I agree honor/shame cultures aren't inherently evil. I think the U.S. could do to have more of an honor/shame culture (it held down out-of-wedlock births for decades). Instead we're incapable of shame, see Bill Clinton. But the honor/shame culture of the ME definitely is detrimental to their prosperity simply because of the way they try to remedy the shame. Instead of introspection on the part of the Arabs(c'mon don't laugh), they decide it's best to erase from humanity what they perceive to be the source of their shame. Hence, their honor/shame culture is evil.

85 Will Dickinson  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:37:44pm

What it means is simply we in the west have to stop glorifying other cultures achievments at the same time we put our own down. We have a great civilization with our own historical achievments and its time we recognize that fact.

As for the unequal distibution of resources, is it my fault I was born in Canada, abundant in natural resources and not in the dessert.

Thirdly I understand the third worlds resentment the same way I do the guy across the street who resents the fact that I can afford a bigger car than he can. It has nothing to do with the fact I work my ass off for a paycheque and everything to do witht the fact somebody is picking on him and he just can't get a break.

86 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:38:53pm

Martin #78,

Priceless. Good work.

87 nancy  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:47:28pm

Ah... now I can undersstand why none of the other arabic speaking countries (except Jordon)want to welcome with open arms the Palistinians.

Even they know that when the doors are opened up to these animals, well you know, there goes the neighborhood.

88 Duke  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 8:59:33pm

#82

There's hard working dudes all over the planet. But I guess you're comfortable knowing that you work harder than the average Romanian coalminer, or child labourer in Pakistan. I'm not saying that you should feel guilty about success, not at all. But it (the ressource to work ratio) might explain why america is the most morbidly obese nation on this planet.

89 James  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:13:14pm

wow, you complain that you (and Israel herself) felt hurt by the insults the palestinian demonstrators directed at you and then i read here that you refer to them as "animals" (re: comment that PETA should protect them) ...no wonder they hate you so much, shame on you.

While I disagree and abhor comments to the effect that people are animals, I seriously doubt the Palestinians and Arabs in general hate Jews because some people on a weblog referred to them as various kinds of animals in response to their shameful riot and successful suppression of speech.

Chicken, egg. I know which came first.

90 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:20:10pm

Obviously there are hard working people all over the planet. But do their countries set up political and economic systems that allow them to flourish, create, achieve, build, earn, purchase (things such as homes, cars, refrigerators, microwaves, TV, computers), in short do what any rational human being would want to do--make his life easier and more comfortable? Apparently not. And why am I supposed to feel guilty about this again?

If 226 years ago American revolutionaries could cast off the yoke of tyranny in the face of death and go on to establish possibly the greatest monument to mankind's achievement ever--the United States of America--, why can't other people around the world? And why again am I supposed to feel guilty about this?

Saudi Arabia--lots of natural resources. Venezuela--lots of natural resources. Russia--lots of natural resources. Would you want to live in any one of these countries? Of course not. You value the standard of living and quality of life in the West. Any rational human being would. That's why people from all over the world are beating down the doors to get into the West (and for the record, I think immigration is wonderful for the U.S., it draws the greatest brains and talents from all over the world to continually bolster America's hegemony--America isn't great because of homegrown talent, not with the NEA in charge of educating our kids).

So again, why should we feel guilty about success? We've earned it.

91 Mike  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:20:40pm

It's sickening that most of you have to resort to bigotry and racism. In Montreal, We accept eachother's cultures and we try to live in unity. Not all the protestors were spitting punching and kicking ( I was trying to stop that from happening and got hurt in the process ) Most were just chanting or sitting like we were supposed to do in the first place. The minority who turned the place into a freakshow ruined it for everybody. But you can't let a minority of people decide the fate of a whole race or religion. This is the year 2002, and people should be beyond the stupidity and hypocrisy of hating eachother for our ethnic backgrounds, for which we have no control of. I can't believe how a religion like Judaism, persecuted for thousands of years, can resort to comments like sending them back where they came from. As a peace loving Italian, it sickens how much these two cultures, Jewish and Palestinian, continue to hate and kill eachother; through armies and suicide bombers, it doens't matter, it's all the same in the end. Killing people doesn't prevent killing or help acquire peace. Wars and hatred havn't worked for thousands of years, why should they work now. As a freshman at ConU, I support free speech, but as an already over politicized school, I felt I was cheated out of class for all this mess, an even that could've easily been held elsewhere. And if Arafat or Hussein were to speak here, I would be out there and as mad as I was on Monday.

92 Samwise  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:30:36pm

krystal -

I don't think it's the insults that hurt so much as the hurled projectiles.

Even an idiot could tell that the PETA comment is a joke - a dark matter to joke about, sure, but no one's dim enough to take it as more than that.

A five year old child saying that the Jews are "monkeys and pigs", however... that's just disturbing. And dead serious.

Of course, if you're merely a troll, well:
phhbbbt.

93 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:31:22pm

"I can't believe how a religion like Judaism, persecuted for thousands of years, can resort to comments like sending them back where they came from."

Do I hear that Nazi thing in here.

I'm going to leave this alone for a few minutes because I am ready to f-cking scream.

Peace-loving Italian, sorry you missed class you idiot.

94 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:32:12pm

Mike #91 says,
---
As a peace loving Italian, it sickens how much these two cultures, Jewish and Palestinian, continue to hate and kill eachother;
---

It's not the Jews who are the haters. The Palestinians are the nation of (player) haters. Their jealousy at Jewish achievement knows no bounds. The Israeli Left was more than willing to give the Palestinians 97% of the West Bank, 3% of Israel Proper, the Gaza Strip, and sovereignty over a slice of Jerusalem. WHAT MORE CAN THEY ASK FOR? Oh, I forgot, they could ask for the destruction of all Jews, my bad.

He continues:

---
through armies and suicide bombers, it doens't matter, it's all the same in the end. Killing people doesn't prevent killing or help acquire peace. Wars and hatred havn't worked for thousands of years, why should they work now.
---

Yeah, that WWII thing didn't quite work out. Dropping a nuke on Japan didn't turn a warrior-like people into a very passive people, who now have the 2nd largest economy in the world (even if their economy is stagnating now). And the Germans didn't learn much from their beat down either, I guess. And the British actually still control America, my man, so you must be right about wars not solving anything. What was I thinking?

And there's more:
---
As a freshman at ConU,
---

When I was a freshman in college I was a communist, too. Talk to us in five years.

95 James  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:40:08pm

I can't believe how a religion like Judaism, persecuted for thousands of years, can resort to comments like sending them back where they came from.

How many people in this thread said they were Jewish? Huh? I'm waiting.

Dude, don't jump to conclusions and be so quick to besmirch Jews in the same breath as you tout your pristine lofty sense of tolerance.

BTW, even if every last one of us was a card carrying J-E-W with skullcaps and circumcisions, I think it's fair to say that we are not "Judaism" any more than a dimwit closet bigot like you is "Italy" or "Catholicism".

96 Will Dickinson  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:45:37pm

#91

"In Montreal, We accept eachother's cultures and we try to live in unity".

That's why it is legal in Quebec for a person to have english on his store front sign. Providing of course that it is twice as small as French. That is why a child can be suspended from elementary school for speaking english on the school yards.

Before you make blanket statements about accepting other cultures, you should take a real good hard look at how the government of Quebec operates. This is a goverment that has twice tried to seperate and to this day continues to discriminate against anglophones and thier culture. The rest of Canada is bilingual giving equal prominence to both the french and english languages. It is only in Quebec that one language is all but outlawed. We won't even mention the treatment that Jewish people have been subjected to in Quebec in the last 100 years.

Maybe you should ask for your tution back because obviously you aren't getting your moneys worth.

BTW very well said RCM.

97 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 9:59:03pm

Will,

Altrettanto (that's Italian for likewise, I wanted to be inclusive to our peace-loving Italian student, Michael, and all).

Quebec does sound mighty tolerant of other cultures. They should be proud.

98 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 10:01:59pm

krystal (#83):

"wow, you complain that you (and Israel herself) felt hurt by the insults the palestinian demonstrators directed at you and then i read here that you refer to them as "animals" (re: comment that PETA should protect them) ...no wonder they hate you so much, shame on you."

Did you say "wow"?

Yeah, they hate us 'cos some people here call them animals. That's why! You have it all worked out. Well done! I'm clapping and throwing change!

What's your opinion on the way the Palestinians "demonstrators" behaved? I suspect you think it's acceptable.

I have so little patience for the trolls tonight.

99 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 10:06:34pm

rcm (#77)

"(ever notice how many times the word "humiliation" is used by Palestinian mouthpieces such as Saeb "End game" Erekat in articles about IDF incursions into the West Bank and Gaza?--he also always says something to the effect of "Ah, now we see what Sharon's 'end game' really is..., hence the nickname)."

Saeb "End Game" Erekat. LOL!

I love that.

'Humiliation' is used as much 'yes, but...', my personal favorite.

100 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 10:12:59pm

zulubaby,

Seriously, do a google search on "Saeb Erekat end game". You'll get dozens of unique hits. And it will even ask if you meant "Saeb Erekat endgame". It's the Palestinians' version of the Clinton administration's talking points.

I noticed this sometime in the spring before Operation Defensive Shield. He always suggested the end game of Sharon was to destroy the PA. It always seemed like hyperbole. But the beauty is that the PA has been effectively marginalized by Sharon and Bush. So maybe Erekat was right all along.

Faster, please.

101 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 10:26:16pm

True story,

Last night, one of my friends asked me what happened to Arafat. Hadn't heard anything about him lately. I nearly fell off my chair I was laughing so much. I told him he wasn't dead yet, if that's what he was thinking.

So help me, I'm talking to another friend tonight, and he pretty much asks me the same thing!

Don't think badly of my friends :-)

Sometimes I feel like I run my own news bureau.

102 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 10:42:06pm

rcm,

You around?

Check this one out...

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

103 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 10:49:42pm

zulubaby,

Thanks for that. On the one hand, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. On the other, I'm going to miss his unsophisticated attempts at looking sophisticated every time he commented on the Mideast situation.

He's been the mouthpiece/"negotiator" of Arafat for a while now. That's pretty big news, but I didn't see it anywhere else. Could Arafat be far behind?

When Bush called for the end of the PA, it couldn't have happened immediately because then it would have looked like the Palestinians were caving in to U.S. will, which would have been shameful to them. But now that time has passed and they see they're not going to get anywhere with Arafat, they can boot him out themselves without feeling as though the U.S. mandated it.

104 Ariel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 10:52:40pm

Mike #91,

In Montreal, We accept eachother's cultures and we try to live in unity.

Yes, that was very well demonstrated. You accepted each other's cultures so much so that you accepted the Palestinian hatred of J-E-W-S.

Most were just chanting or sitting like we were supposed to do in the first place.

You forgot to insert the words "Israel-supporters" between "Most" and "were".

The minority who turned the place into a freakshow ruined it for everybody.

You forgot to insert the words "of Palestinian-supporters" between "minority" and "who".

As a peace loving Italian, it sickens how much these two cultures, Jewish and Palestinian, continue to hate and kill eachother; through armies and suicide bombers, it doens't matter, it's all the same in the end.

Good to see you love peace.

Did it ever cross your mind to begin to read a little bit of history before making such blanket statements? Here's a brief primer.

1993: Oslo accords signed. Putative peace process begins.

2000: After numerous violations of almost every clause in the Oslo accords and their various follow-ups, the Palestinians refuse an offer. Moreover, they refuse to come up with any offer. Then they decide to start a war.

In short, the Israelis accepted that a Palestinian state could exist. The Palestinians promptly declared war. Tells you something about their intentions, no?

Equating armies and genocide bombers is, at best, disingenous. Remember this:
1) If Israel laid down its weapons, the Arabs would kill every Israeli the next day. If the Arabs laid down their weapons, there would be peace the next day.
2) Israel wants peace. The Palestinians want the Israelis in pieces.
3) If Israel wanted to kill every Palestinian tomorrow, they could do it. With Napalm. If the Palestinians could kill every Israeli, it would have already been done.

Killing people doesn't prevent killing or help acquire peace.

If you meant killing people indiscriminately, you are right. Too bad your pals, the Palestinians haven't figured that out.

There are times when killing has led to pacification. Europe after WWII has been quite peaceful (at least within its borders).

As a freshman at ConU

May I suggest that if you continue to fail to learn the history of an argument in which you take part, they will indeed CON YOU.

105 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 11:01:01pm

rcm,

More for you...

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Nice job Ariel!

106 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 11:10:02pm

zulubaby,

Thanks again. Call me cynical, but this sounds like the Arafat Rehabilitation Project. Should be interesting to see how it plays out though.

Hey, I have a question, as I'm pretty new to this whole posting thing, how does one post a link? Also to use the html tags for bold, italics, and to quote text at a reduced size, what's the syntax?

107 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 11:19:11pm

rcm,

To post a link, highlight the entire http address of the page, copy it (with the right-click), and then paste it here.

As for the html tags, I don't know either. I was planning on asking mommydoc about it, but I keep forgetting.

There are many others here who could help us.

108 Ariel  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 11:23:20pm

For bold type:

< b > < /b >

For italics:

&lti> </i>

For indented quotes:

&ltblockquote> </blockquote>

For websites:

&lta href="Your web address"> Type here </a>

Enjoy!

109 rcm  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 11:32:18pm

Thanks, Ariel. I appreciate it.

110 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 11:34:08pm

Thank you Ariel.

I want to know one other thing though.

Are there spaces between the and the text, or no?

111 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 11:40:53pm

That didn't work.

Between the and the text

or is it like this and the text

112 zulubaby  Wed, Sep 11, 2002 11:42:36pm

LOL!

O.K, I see I asked a stupid question. It obviously makes no difference.

'Scuse me, I'm blond.

113 Dar ul Harbarian  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 12:20:53am

#91

Please read post #27

Being a freshman you have some excuse for not knowing history. But not much. By 4th grade I could have listed for you numerous instances where violence had stopped future violence.

Regarding your comment:

"But you can't let a minority of people decide the fate of a whole race or religion. This is the year 2002, and people should be beyond the stupidity and hypocrisy of hating eachother for our ethnic backgrounds, for which we have no control of."

There is the way the world is and there is the way the world ought to be. The fact of the matter is that violent minorities can easily hijack an entire nation, religion or ideology. They have done so in the past and will do so in the future.

And don't use "of" at the end of a sentence.

114 Aaron  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 12:24:24am

Is the following authentic?

J'ai retrouvé le email original de l'invitation pour cette "conférence":

(I found the original e-mail invitation for this "conference":)


Former Prime Minister of Israel
Benjamin Netanyahu
will be speaking at Concordia University
on Monday September 9th, 2002 @ 12:00 p.m.
in room H-110 Sir George Williams Campus 1455 Maisonneuve Blvd.

Due to the security conditions certain precautions must be taken...

VERY IMPORTANT:
-*No one without a ticket will be allowed entry
Only one ticket per person, first come first serve
-Please arrive no later than 11:00 a.m. for security checks
-Be prepared for a metal detector search
-Once admitted into the room no one will be permitted to leave until the
conclusion of the event
-Bring your Israeli flags
-Bring your student id

*To reserve your free ticket please send an e-mail to:
NETANYAHU_TICKETS@HOTMAIL.COM
-Be sure to include in the body of the e-mail: your name as it appears on
your student id, your student id#, name of University or Cegep, and a phone
number where you can be reached.
-Subject: Tickets
-A confirmation e-mail will be sent informing you where and when to pick up
your tickets

Tickets are extremely limited, reserve your tickets NOW!!!

(I found it on La Tribu du Verbe in the comments


(This is for free tickets so I'm guessing it's not the original, I think people paid thirty or so dollars a piece)

(Just passing along what others are saying, if true, I could see how people would be upset since "student I.D." seems to be equal to "Bring your Israeli flags" -- didn't appear to be open to those without the aforementioned flags.)

115 Dar ul harbarian  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 12:25:39am

Sorry, read post #29 not #27

116 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 12:37:13am

(Just passing along what others are saying, if true, I could see how people would be upset since "student I.D." seems to be equal to "Bring your Israeli flags" -- didn't appear to be open to those without the aforementioned flags.)

bullshitbullshitbullshit

117 BarCodeKing  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 12:39:04am

Re: #9, Elizabeth hits it right on the head: SEND THEM HOME. Any Muslim who comes to Canada or the United States and abuses our hospitality in such a way should be sent packing. We do NOT need those kind of people in western societies! SEND THEM HOME!

118 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 12:51:02am

Aaron (#114),

Read this

[Link: www.montrealmuslimnews.net...]

and this

[Link: www.yourmailinglistprovider.com...]

The Student I.D.'s and the Israeli flags had absolutely nothing to do with the pro-Palestinian "demonstrators" being "upset".

The "demonstration" was planned well in advance. Since when is holding an Israeli flag a crime? Holding an Israeli flag is hardly provocation for the barbaric behavior of the "demonstrators".

It's all bullshit. They hate the Jews, they hate Israel. Any excuse to act out that hatred will suffice.

You want to know what's upsetting? Having Ashrawi speaking tomorrow at Colorado University. That's cause for outrage. Not some Israeli-flag-clutching-Jews singing Hatikvah.

119 Nathanincanada  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 1:20:56am

Just got in.

Zulubaby, good to see you in here. Your "'scuse me, I'm blond" cracked me up! :-D

Dar ul-Harbarian: "don't use 'of' at the end of a sentence."

"That is nonsense up with which I shall not put!" (Winston Churchill, if I'm not mistaken).

120 squib  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 1:54:54am

in almost 40 years, the palestinians have created nothing more for themselves than a cesspool. That isn't long enough to create, at least, the infrastructure for a functioning society? And they want their own country?! Give them Atlantis!

121 Andrea Mouloud  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 3:00:52am

Here is the letter I sent to Concordia's public relations director:

If history teaches anything, it is that concrete action and sacrifice are often needed to protect freedom of speech, religion, and assembly. These are such precious freedoms that are granted to so few across the world, even in 2002. I don't know why we in Canada have lost our backbone, our willingness to fight for the right to express our beliefs publically - yes, in rallies, speeches, exhibits, and information tables.

A speech by former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at Concordia University was an honour for your school and for Canada, and he should have been treated as an honoured guest. I am not sure why the full force of Canadian security forces could not have been used to ensure his protection - and the right of your students to hear Mr Netanyahu. (I know the power of our army has been severely curtailed -- but surely they can still offer protection against bottle-throwing, spitting, sneering terror-students?)
The rhetoric on your website: "Today’s events have only reinforced Concordia’s stand on freedom of expression and its mission as an institution of higher learning" is void of meaning. Words cannot disguise cowardliness.
Its too bad that the violence of a few who have brought old hatreds to a new land can be allowed to trample on the rights of other Canadians. Sometimes, as unpalatable as this may be to left-leaning intellectuals, we must stand up to these tatics of intimidation, and fight for our right to free expression. Or else lose it.
Concordia University has this day passively given in to the tatics of terror. Not a proud day for your institution.


Andrea Mouloud

please submit your own thoughts to them:
[Link: www.concordia.ca...]

122 Ronjon  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 3:05:55am

Corvus #67...I can't add any more to your comment, we ARE spitting into the wind up here, the die has been cast long ago. We're preaching to the converted on this site unfortunately.

Now the PM has said that "perceived US arrogance" was a contributing factor to 9/11. That's another thread...

There's been the odd inflammatory comment here, but it's bogus for some self-appointed guardians of political correctness to play the "racist" card in order to stifle legitimate comments. The protesters in Montreal used thug tactics and got away with it, period. The reason they always get away with it in Canada is the institutionalized left wing political culture, that's so friggin' obvious it doesn't require repeating.

123 John Palubiski  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 4:03:56am

I am a graduate of Concordia ( 1980's). I can remember knife fights between Iranian expats denouncing the Islamic regime in their homeland and hezbollah fanatics screaming "Islam is peace". What happened there is nothing new. Under the guise of tolerance and free-speech a politically correct vocabulary was imposed on all activities, and we are now seeing the result. Comment #27 is by "activist" Jaggi Singh whose dishonest and truncated version of the events I just read on rabble.ca. Tell me Jaggi just where the hell were you on Sept 11th 2001 when Muslim students cheered and whistled as people jumped to their deaths from the WTC, and when the islamc students association reacted to the tragedy as though "team islam " had just scored a touchdowm? You can pose as a moral preener all you want, but your self-censorship and your selective reporting of events betray your one-sided agenda. Jaggi wants to be a media star...gee whiz.

124 Nathanincanada  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 4:43:19am

Ah, Jaggi! I hadn't followed that link. John P., Jaggi is a media star, sort of; I once saw this guy referred to for the first time in an article in a major Canadian daily simply as "Jaggi"! When that big summit was on in Quebec City, Jaggi was practically arrested as soon as he flew in (he was later released without any charges, if I remember correctly).

I remember in the days when I was almost coopted into protesting, Jaggi was my contact for the "East Timor Action Network." I continue to think that was a worthwhile cause, but I never did show up for the protests (which was ok!), so I don't know what they were like.

125 AG in Houston  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 4:53:51am

It is nice to know that Bibi's speech was printedin the Globe and Mail:

Key results of the 2002 NADbank report:
- The Globe and Mail has 1,028,000 readers each weekday in the 41 markets
in which it was measured;
- The Globe and Mail's national Saturday readership is: 1,045,000;
- The Globe and Mail's 6-day cumulative readership is: 2,554,000;
- The National Post has experienced significant readership declines --
national weekday readership is down 18 per cent to 703,000; national
Saturday readership is down 17 per cent to 654,000; Toronto weekday
readership is down 23 per cent to 221,000; and Toronto Saturday
readership is down 25 per cent to 206,000.

www.bce.ca/en/news/releases/bg/2002/09/06/69291.ht ml

126 ploome  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 5:03:54am

#80

the link doesnt work...could you re post that.?

127 J Lichty  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 5:21:02am
128 Tiama  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 5:42:13am

If you want some background on the "small p" politics behind this event, check this out -

[Link: www.globeandmail.com...]

129 Dave  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 5:51:25am

They threw pennies at Jews...

Fucking hell... why not just burn a cross?

If anybody's interested, here's the Electronic Intifada's newest take on the Jenin Massacre (tm): not only was there no massacre, but it wasn't even Palestinians who were spreading rumors that there had been--it was Israel spreading the massacre rumors, trying to discredit Palestinians. In other news, Elctronic Intifada reported that Oceania is not, in fact, is NOT at war with Eurasia, and never has been, but has actually been fighting Eastasia, and always has been. Got it? No massacre in Jenin, and whoever says there was is playing along with the Israelis to make Palestinians look bad...

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtm l?itemNo=206954&contrassID=2&subContrassID =4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

130 brianstien  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 5:55:06am

I was watching CNN last night. They ran a brief montage of anniversary news accounts from all over the world, including a segment from Iraq. Aaron Brown was shocked! Shocked, I tell you, that the Iraqi news agency would so blatantly engage in such spin and distortion.

I vacillate, occasionally, between the beliefs that the mainstream media has an agenda, or that the mainstream media is simply stupid.

131 Robert Crawford  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 6:14:20am
I vacillate, occasionally, between the beliefs that the mainstream media has an agenda, or that the mainstream media is simply stupid.

Both.

132 J Lichty  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 6:26:11am

Aaron brown is the worst. I remember watching CNN on 9/11 (before I learned how friggin biased they are). That smirk on Brown's face just infuruated me. I turned it to Fox and have not turned back since.

133 Q  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 6:49:23am

Re: #69

I agree that in the US as it is now the European/Arab/Muslim-style Jew-hatred is unthinkable as a government agenda or even majority view (all the not-so-ancient "Jews and dogs keep out" signs notwithstanding).

My point is that it is never a time for Jews to "rest on the laurels", the price of freedom being the eternal vigilance.

134 Faith S.  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 7:38:27am

Everyone:

Reread comment #5.

Also: Prime Minister Chretien and Rector of Concordia, Rector Lowy are politicians(Chretien more exactly, but Lowy is responsive to political pressure and huge numbers criticizing his policies).

They have been getting letters, but they need to get THOUSANDS!!!

Chretien's is: pm@pm.gc.ca
Lowy's is: Frederick.Lowy@concordia.ca

Make these 2 points:
1. The rioters must be punished in a democracy.

2. DO NOT begin a moratorium on events related to the Middle East. That just means that mobs and rioters are dictating University policy.

135 James  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 7:45:49am

Q,

My point is that it is never a time for Jews to "rest on the laurels", the price of freedom being the eternal vigilance.

Totally agreed, which is one reason why Brooklyn will not do as well as Israel like we're sometimes told.

136 Iron Fist[deleted]  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 7:59:59am
137 Iron Fist[deleted]  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 8:03:33am
138 J Lichty  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 8:29:31am

Iron:

My recollection was that there were celebrations in Patterson, New Jersey and Dearborn, Michigan as well. I even heard of celebrations on one of the bridges crossing the river into lower Manhattan.

Perhaps someone has some more information regarding this.

139 Iron Fist[deleted]  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 9:31:19am
140 Stan Epperson  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 11:13:50am

Just surfing through and thought I'd leave some of my thoughts ...


Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Islam mean "submission" instead of peace? I for one, have no intention of EVER submitting to these people or their religion. I prefer to think of Islam as the "new communist/nazi threat" of the 21st century and it must be dealt with accordingly. (At least the radical element of it)

Mike#91 - ALL and I mean ALL freshmen are idiots, get use to the idea. Eventually you will grow up and put away foolish ideas. Remember..."cool" ryhmes with "fool" (same thing I tell my son).

(Not that he listens...)

Liz (#9) and BarCodeKing (#117)

Oh PLEASE, PLEASE don't ship them home! Send them down here to Texas instead, and WE will show these "protesters" a thing or two. Pity the protests you all are enduring up there never seem to happen down here. Arabs only understand one thing - FORCE. You cannot reason with them ( my hat is off to the Mountie that figured that out rather quickly and punched! YEEEHAAW!!). Don't believe me? Go ahead and try to have a civilized discussion on the Arab/Israeli situation and see what happens. The Israeli may become passionate about the topic but I doudt he/she will attack you. On the other hand, the Arab...well, let's just say you had better not turn your back on him/her. ( I speak from experience associated with the 1973 war while I was attending college). Man... was I a dumb trusting, foolish freshman.

Lastly...

Ever wonder why there aren't any Arabs in any of Star Trek shows?
That's because the show takes place in the future...No Arabs.

141 john  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 1:13:48pm

The reason the main stream media...read TV and most Eastern dailies exce;pt for the National Post...thank God...don't report incidents such as this is that they are complicit with the Islamic terrorists. The main stream media are onside with the Federal Govt...which is a Government run by the French. The French have a long and sordid history of Jew bashing and the French of Quebec are the same. Remember on the night of their defeat how the Separatist Quebecois blamed the 'ethnic vote' in Quebec for losing the vote to separate from Canada. Believe me, most Canadians outside of Quebec also felt defeated that day...we lost a good opportunity to rid ourselves of those frog bastards.

142 frogbastard  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 2:13:01pm

john...fuck off to a trailer court in new mexico. do i smell a red neck albertan here?

143 krystal  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 8:49:49pm

Zulubaby said, "Did you say "wow"?

Yeah, they hate us 'cos some people here call them animals. That's why! You have it all worked out. Well done! I'm clapping and throwing change!

What's your opinion on the way the Palestinians "demonstrators" behaved? I suspect you think it's acceptable."

well, i at first felt sorry for the jewish (identified or self-identified) students who were caught in the melee between pro-palestinian and pro-israeli demonstrators, but when i read such comments (palestinians are like animals ...which has been commented on and repeated refered to enough times that i take it a little more seriously than an idle threat ... and trust me, such sentiments exist in the real world, as well) but now i don't ...i cannot feel sorry for jews who think in such a way (don't israeli's know enough about what it is to be considered animals or inhuman by the nazi's, how dare they throw that label onto some other race!)

consider this: if you refer to them as simply nothing but animals -- as inhuman -- then how can you expect them to be nothing but angry at you?

144 Greg  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 10:19:58pm

well, i at first felt sorry for the jewish (identified or self-identified) students who were caught in the melee between pro-palestinian and pro-israeli demonstrators, but when i read such comments (palestinians are like animals ...which has been commented on and repeated refered to enough times that i take it a little more seriously than an idle threat ... and trust me, such sentiments exist in the real world, as well) but now i don't ...i cannot feel sorry for jews who think in such a way (don't israeli's know enough about what it is to be considered animals or inhuman by the nazi's, how dare they throw that label onto some other race!)

consider this: if you refer to them as simply nothing but animals -- as inhuman -- then how can you expect them to be nothing but angry at you?

What the hell?

What the hell?

What the hell?

This is a motherfucking weblog. We are not the people there. We are not The Jews. We are not The Israelis. We are single, solitary individuals of many faiths or lacking faith, from various countries, different colours, members of different political parties etc.

You make so many fucking assumptions. How the hell do you know the religion and nationality of any poster who hasn't self-identified?

"consider this: if you refer to them as simply nothing but animals -- as inhuman -- then how can you expect them to be nothing but angry at you?"

I don't give a good goddamn what those jerkoff violent thugs in Montreal think about me. That poor 73-year old man they pushed and shoved has nothing to do with it.

Why do you not understand the concept that those fucking rioting bastards don't hate Jews because of some comments you came across in a weblog comment section?

Guess what! Maybe we 'hate' them because they're crazed, violent pieces of shit -- hey, be a goodie-goodie and next time you see them ask them to "consider this: if you act like violent brownshirts then how can you expect them to be nothing but angry at you?" 'k?

145 wordwarp  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 10:26:28pm

great article on the muslim "activists's" behavior in canada...

[Link: www.globeandmail.com...]

146 wordwarp  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 11:01:38pm

Also, doesn't "Islam" actually mean "submission"?

147 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 11:32:57pm

krystal sweetheart, let's get some clarity here, shall we?

Just for the record, I don't believe I have personally referred to the Palestinians as animals, but I do think that their behaviour is barbaric. Having said that, the Palestinians call the Jews, and anyone who defends them, far worse names than "animals". Does that make me hate them? No. I don't enjoy it, for sure, but, as they say, actions speak louder than words, and their actions are what I despise. Their behaviour is what I find repugnant, a good example being the violent and ugly riot at Concordia because an - Gasp! - Israeli was going to give a speech. Besides the unacceptable carryings-on there, it's bloody immature.

You wrote:

well, i at first felt sorry for the jewish (identified or self-identified) students who were caught in the melee between pro-palestinian and pro-israeli demonstrators, but when i read such comments (palestinians are like animals ...which has been commented on and repeated refered to enough times that i take it a little more seriously than an idle threat ... and trust me, such sentiments exist in the real world, as well) but now i don't ...i cannot feel sorry for jews who think in such a way (don't israeli's know enough about what it is to be considered animals or inhuman by the nazi's, how dare they throw that label onto some other race!)

consider this: if you refer to them as simply nothing but animals -- as inhuman -- then how can you expect them to be nothing but angry at you?

Firstly, the Jews don't need nor want your pity. It's very decent of you that you felt sorry for the Jewish students being assaulted for going to listen to a speech. But here's what is most telling about you: "...caught in the melee between pro-palestinian and pro-israeli demonstrators...". Please explain where you got the notion that there were two groups of people "demonstrating". Did you just make that up for effect? There were no "pro-Israeli demonstrators? Get it? There were pro-Palestinians shoving Holocaust survivors against walls, kicking, spitting, smearing ketchup (to represent Palestinian blood), hurling chairs through windows, screaming, chanting, throwing bottles, punching, in other words, rioting. And there were Jews who there to hear Netanyahu speak, but seeing as though that didn't happen, they resorted to singing Hatikvah.

Did you in fact read this woman's first-hand account of what happened there, or are you merely basing your opinion on what people's responses to this story have been, i.e. the comments on this thread?

Maybe you did read the story, but you apparently missed this part:

We stood on one side of the barrier, while they stood on the other, and we faced off. On our side, we sang and danced and celebrated being free and Jewish. On their side, they threw bottles at people's heads, screamed hatred, and tried to break the barriers down to hurt us. They started tossing pennies and coins at us - one of the oldest ways to taunt Jews by saying we're all 'money-grubbing'. While we sang Hatikvah arm in arm, they spat at us.

And you're telling me that there was a "melee between pro-palestinian and pro-israeli demonstrators"? I think not.

You're telling me that you consider it a serious threat that some people here have referred to the Palestinians as animals? Boo! Did I just scare you? What utter nonsense! I'll throw a (freshly baked, so it's soft) bagel at you if you don't pull yourself together.

But see, up until this point, I was paying some mind to what you were saying. I was thinking to myself that perhaps you were merely over-reacting to the way "animal" was being bandied around here (I don't much like the name-calling myself, but I understand what venting is).

Well you had to go and ruin it, didn't you?

This:

don't israeli's know enough about what it is to be considered animals or inhuman by the nazi's, how dare they throw that label onto some other race! just plain pisses me off.

What is it with people like you that you think that because the Jews were gassed by the millions, that they have no right to hate the people that hate them? What makes you think that the Jews don't have the right to call people who chant, "Death to Jews" and "Death to Israel", animals? Why does 'Nazi" always have to thrown in Jews faces? What you and your ilk would prefer is that the Jews never push back.

Well here's a newsflash for you: The Jews are getting kinda tired of it. They have seen hundreds of their people being blown to nothing by the very people that those peace-loving "pro-Palestinian demonstrators" identify with. The Jews just aren't in the mood right now for more slaughter of their people. The Jews would like to live in peace, they'd like to get along with everyone, but if others insist on throwing bottles at them, then they're just going to have to understand that as the recipients of those bottles, the Jews (and many non-Jews. Not everyone who comments here is Jewish, which may come as a shocker to you) will consider them "animals", and say so. The way the Jewish students at Concordia were treated by the pro-Palestinians is inhumane.

My first thought when I heard about this: Do the parents of these students know what their children do after class? Do they approve? Or are they embarrassed and outraged that their children behave like this? That's a fair question, no?

I'll tell you this much for free (and I don't have kids); if a child of mine behaved like that, I would be utterly ashamed. I would hang my head in shame to know that my child behaved with so little grace, humility, and dignity. It would break my heart to know that my child had no soul, no morals and plain no fucking manners!

How would you feel if one of your children behaved like those "pro-Palestinian demonstrators"? As I said before, I suspect you'd think it acceptable behaviour because, well, they're Jews.

For starters, look at the picture posted at the top of this thread.

Next, read the story.

Until then, shut up until you grow up.

I've wasted enought time on you already.

148 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 12, 2002 11:34:42pm

Hey, I think I got the hang of the html thing!

Yeah mama!

149 Globe and Mail - Canada' National Newspaper  Fri, Sep 13, 2002 4:24:48am

Please someone, especially someone who was there or has the time to be especially eloquent, to respond to this drivel by this racist, bigot Jaggi Singh.

We need to expose him for the idiot that he is.

[Link: www.globeandmail.com...]

150 Mike  Fri, Sep 13, 2002 9:31:54pm

OOOK...

let's see. Greg gets mad @ krystal for comparmentalizing Jews, but all Palestinians are animals. All protestors were violent thugs, all muslims are suicide bombers.

Look you may have gotten the impression I'm pro Palestinian. GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. I'm not. I just have a problem with bringing a man who is identified by the UN as a war criminal. Now, usually an organization like the UN would have sufficient proof to at least try him for war crimes. I have a problem not being able to attend my discrete mathematics class because I couldn't get in the school, and got subsequently beaten by a palestinian radical who thought I was a zionist for stopping a young palestinian girl from punching a jew in the head. I EXPLAINED them why I stopped her, because the original intention of the protest was to be a peaceful one. I knew before the speech that they would try to Bibi from speaking. The radicals screwed up. Bibi is right. Now more than the intended audience has heard what he wanted to say. Women with asthma were trapped in tear gas in the upper floors of the school, protestors were provoked from the front (thats how the violence erupted from the main entrance. The side entrance violence, where I was, I admit was completely unprovoked and stupid and pointless.) I'm supposed to be learning to be an electrical engineer at Concordia, I'm not supposed to be tear gassed.

You know why my post on this topic is vague? Because I'm sick of politics, especially on the topic of the middle east. I gave up long ago, forgot everything, because both sides are so angry with eachother, the blindness is absolute. I have a feeling it will never end. I get dark thoughts of a West Mediterranean expansion, where peaceful sea animals could make better use of the space. But that's wrong. My hate for the situation is from the frustration I get listening to both sides argue who's right endlessly endlessly...

All you can do is call eachother names, claim the other is from a different era in the earth's life cycle, blablablablablbalbalba...

So, if I hate this topic, why am I here? Because now I'm too close to the heat to avoid not expressing myself. So you'll have to put up with me : )

And Quebec is USUALLY a xeno-friendly place. Just because the government opresses culture other than french-canadian, doesn't mean the people opress it, too. Since when does the government's mindset match it's citizens?

I just find it's too easy to blame a few people's actions to an entire race of people. Just because I got beaten by 3 palestinians, doesn't mean I now hate all Palestinians. Just because a Jew never paid back the credit he got at the store my mom once owned, doesn't mean I hate all Jews. Just because some Italians are really dumb and superficial, doens't mean ALL OF THEM ARE. It's really simple. Some peopl are insane in this world, and some of those insane people are xenophobic.And they will kill eachother to dominate.

I'm blabbing like a maniac and my thoughts are everywhere but this is what I think about all this crap.

Thanks
Mike

151 Mike  Fri, Sep 13, 2002 9:38:27pm

BTW I'm not a communist. I'm in Canada.

We're socialist, except the government here is so corrupt we're taxed 52% of our pay yet my dad still has to work his ass off to pay for my university fees which usually top 4000$ a year, while in Denmark, (socialist, too) all students don't pay anything adn they're taxed the same amount of money. Where does our 52% go? To gold plated toilets (true story) and whores(true again, cough bouchard, cough).

So socialism does work, but only in northwest Europe. At least it does for students.

Oh yeah they pay dirt for medical too. Here? Medicine might be privatized... grrr

Mike

152 Jew Dick  Sun, Sep 15, 2002 6:05:32pm

Fuck you all jews!

153 Gofofmass  Sun, Sep 15, 2002 6:14:18pm

# 152 Boy you sure showed us. Even Christians like myself are impressed.

Did you write that yourself or hire out?

154 HR  Fri, Sep 20, 2002 7:06:47pm

I stumbled across this site, when I was searching for some news on anti-semitism in college campuses in US universities. You guys amaze me! You love to speak trash about Arabs and Palestinians in your little "sweet" community, wallowing in your sorry collective inferiority complex of being born a jew.

Wasn't it the Nazi-Goebbels who had said that if you speak lies over and over again, it finally becomes the truth, well that's what you guys are doing now.

I am not a even a Muslim, not a Christian, but a Hindu and the Jewish people and Hindus have good relations, but even then I oppose Israel on a political stage. I am not against Jews, don't get me wrong, but Israel sucks and it will pay.

One day.

155 Manu Rangachari  Wed, Sep 25, 2002 8:22:07pm

I think that most of the points that I would like to make have been made earlier, but I gather that repetition is not frowned upon in this thread :)

It is embarrassing that I even need to address this, but I feel it is necessary in this discussion: for the record, I am not Jewish. I am not Muslim. I guess I am Hindu by birth, but to be honest, the closest I come to any sort of religious devotion is an unreasonable faith in the Toronto Maple Leafs.

I guess I am politically left of centre, but I enjoy visiting blogs that are right-wing, because they force me to challenge my assumptions and make me keep an open mind. Many (rightish) blogs manage to communicate civilly, and even the discussions they give rise to manage to maintain a polite tone.

I don't think any one can be proud of the mass generalizations and name-calling that we see in this discussion. If you want to say that Palestinians are corrupt, fine. If you want to say that they are terrorists and that their culture is backward...then that is your prerogative if you can back up your statements, regardless of whether I agree with you or not. But I fail to see how substituting "Palestinians" with "Paleostinians" or "Paleosimians" can add anything to your argument, other than leave the impression that you are juvenile and lack intellectual credibility. I know that the left engages in name-calling as well, and I don't care. They are wrong as well, but their transgressions do not excuse your actions.

And finally, to address the Canada-bashing that seems rampant. I will just pick out one quote from this thread.

"I hope it shows that not all Canadians are wishy-washy-tree-hugging-granola-eating morons".

That's just lovely. I'm sure that the folks in Gander, Newfoundland, who gladly allowed thousands of stranded Americans into their homes on 9/11, would really appreciate the ad hominem. I'm also confident that the families of the Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan (by a trigger-happy American pilot, no less), would be thrilled. I for one, despite being a "granola-eating moron", am still glad that I donated blood in the wake of 9/11. I was last in the US on St Patrick's Day (in Boston), and was amazed at the hospitality I encountered. In the wake of that, I have decided to revise my opinion of Americans being "rednecked-gun-toting-warmongering-reality-TV-wat ching imbeciles."

And for the record, I'm appalled at these people who have assumed that the majority of the participants in this discussion are jewish. Comments such as this: "...wallowing in your sorry collective inferiority complex of being born a jew" have as little place in an enlightened discussion as the ones I criticized earlier.

156 Sami  Sun, Sep 29, 2002 2:25:39pm

all you jews hate on muslims and u fuckin jews have killed enough muslims in the arab countried i no longer feel sorry for what hitter did with u fucks for all those who love to hate should be burned alive

157 Mike  Tue, Oct 1, 2002 6:57:03pm

I guess that includes you.


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