Regardless of who's bullets killed him, the sad thing is that an 11 year old is caught in the middle of any battle......anywhere.

Yeah, That is one revealing website!

As has been pointed out many times, most Palestinian claims, in every regard, are false. Beginning with the fact that the majority are not of Palestinian descent, inlcuding their "President "

But does anyone care about that ?

BigDog, I think the point is that while we find it sad, the Palestinians apparently do not. They killed him, yet they don't express regret. It is a PR victory for their cause. In their world, that justifies death, and that is precisely why so many 11-year-olds are sent out to confront tanks, while the adults stay home.

What is really ironic (and sickening) about that site is that the part of the video represented in the illustration is the part when the father yelled towards the camera, in Arabic, "Don't shoot!"

ugh

W.

Whose bullet killed him is almost irrelevent.

Let's picture a situation where a group of people are taken hostage. In a rescue attempt, one hostage is killed and ninety are saved. It turns out that the one killed was killed by a bullet from the SWAT team. Who is responsible for the death?

It is a judgment call as to how to assign the blame for this battle. However, the exact gunman is less important than who is to blaim for starting the firefight.

No Joe. If you knew just how careful Israeli soldiers were to prevent unnecessary casualties, as opposed to random Palestinian gunmen who deliberatly inflict civilian casualities, you would not equate the two sides. It is relevant.

Even if the we killed him, its the jews who are responsible.

They oppress and humiliate us to the point that we start sacrificing and killing theown children.

Those evil jews.

O god, make the earth quake beneath their feet, for it is in your power.

Oh god, leaden the matzoh balls in their intestines.

For anyone interested in this case, I recommend the film "Who Killed Mohammed al-Dura" by Esther Schapira. It's a German film; I saw it in Germany and don't know if it's available in the States.

re: 6

eh ... the hostage scenario is not a good analogy. If a hostage is accidently killed by a stray bullet, then that is one thing. al Dura and his father were executed for no other reason than to give the Palestinians a little PR

If you look at the bullet holes in the wall, they did not come from an angle - they were fired straight on. The Israelis are to the right of the camera man ... why do you expect the Palestinians were firing in the direction of al Dura, instead of the Israelis?

W.

Yeah jews are cruel to matzos too. Killing them just to eat their balls.

off topic....from my favorite thinker...

exposing another big lie...

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

The chapters dealing with Islamic anti-Zionism detail this adaptation and clarify the present phase of the Arab-Israeli conflict. They elucidate both the theological foundations, and the adulterated rewriting of history that underpins the campaign of hatred and incrimination against Israel, Zionism, the Jews, and all those whom Islamism perceives as enemies.

These chapters further establish how anti-Zionism and third-worldism have collaborated and are still collaborating, as well as examining the relationship between certain Christian and Islamic trends: "Christian antisemitism has denied to the Jews historic rights by the doctrine of the fallen deicide people.

For Islam, this same refusal results from a historical negationism which Islamizes all Jewish and Christian biblical history."

Curiously enough, certain Christians continue to espouse this doctrine, little understanding that they are shooting themselves in the foot: "neither the Vatican nor the World Council of Churches has officially condemned anti-Zionism as a criminal ideology advocating the elimination of the State of Israel. European policy is automatically pro-Arab, pro-Islamic, and consequently anti-Christian."

Does anyone have a URL for any report on the German investigation referenced in the base article here?
(ideal case would be an online copy of the original report, even if it's in German).

[Link: www.eretzyisroel.org...]

It would be possible to tell exactly who killed the little camel-jockey through ballistics testing...oh wait, no it wouldn't. The Israelis gave the Palestinians their M-16s. Never mind.

Anyone with a little understanding of physics & maybe military weaponry can look at the video/photos, etc. and easily conclude what happened.

If you look at the bullet holes in the wall - which are actually depicted rather well in the illustration - you can see that the rounds are obviously fired from straight on (direction of the camera). The Israeli position was at a 30-40 degree angle from al Dura - if any rounds from their position had hit the wall near al Dura, it would have glanced off the wall, leaving smaller holes and probably chipping off pieces of concrete.

The real kicker though (pardon the pun) has to do with the pattern of shots to the left of al Dura - again, depicted well in the illustration. When you fire a weapon like an M-16 or AK-47 on full automatic, it tends to rise up after each successive shot. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons the later M-16's (M-16A2 +) replaced 'full-auto' with a three-round burst. Anyways, the pattern to the left is a pretty good indication of this 'rising' effect - the first shot to the left of the child, with the three successive shots above it and a little to the right (gunman was left handed, probably). I'm not sure why the gunman would fire to the left of them ... either he's a bad shot, or he was trying to get them to stay there

W.

The building case against the New York times

The above article mentions three large events and the aldura case.

1. Tuvia Grossman

2. Mohammed Al-Dura

3. Israel Day Parade 2002

Joe #6

I'm so glad to see that someone finally figured this out. Even if it turns out that an Israeli bullet killed this poor kid, that is totally irrelevant. The issue really is: whose fault is it that a battle was being fought in a populated area?

If a bunch of criminals start a shoot-out with another gang (or with police, or with soldiers), and a kid gets killed, do people blame the one who shot the fatal bullet, or the ones who started the shoot-out?!!? Apparently it depends if one of the sides was made up of Jews.

Grybstein

re: 14

They speculate that the four bullet holes to the left of al Dura and his father were the Palestinians trying to force them stay put. Another sentence mentions that there are no shops, parks or any Palestinian settlements nearby - begging the question, what were they doing there in the first place?

There was another passage that quotes a witness who said he heard a loud 'boom' before seeing the father collapse - which sounds like it was probably a high-powered sniper rifle (accounts for the camera shaking, too).

Either way you cut it - all you have to do is look at where the Israelis were, then look at where al Dura and his father were, and try to imagine a bullet going through that massive concrete cylinder.

Think Occam's Razor

W.

Good grief people, are you really this thick? I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but you're not really getting this analogy thing at all. A random bullet accidently hitting an innocent is NOT THE SAME THING as an aimed, execution-style shot fired from a sniper.

If a bunch of criminals start a shoot-out with another gang (or with police, or with soldiers), and a kid gets killed, do people blame the one who shot the fatal bullet, or the ones who started the shoot-out?!!?

You blame the person who fired the shot if it he deliberately aimed & fired at the child while his partner caught the whole thing on video only to turn the video over to ABC news, claim that it was the police who killed the child and that the gangsters are really just a misunderstood, downtrodden people who deserve their own city.

Oh .. and it was the Palestinians that started the shootout ...

W.

Amazingly, no one has pointed out the amazing hypocracy on the site with that Al-Dura poem. The next page has a picture of a settler and his child with a gun, and calls the guy a "fanatic" and whines about how "They are taught to hate and kill Palestinians from a very young age."

Pot... kettle.... black.

Can someone point me to the PA announcement a couple of months ago in which they admitted that only 50-some Palestinians were killed? Also does anyone have the URL for the Egyptian newspaper story that interviewed a participant in that battle?
This is for an ongoing argument with a Syrian student at my school who can't believe that this statement or news article exists. [the discusion is very genial, I'd just like to show him some hard-copy from something other than an Israeli paper because 'of course' you can't trust them]
thanks

Ooops, I'm talking about Jenin.

History tends to favor Jews in the long run so in a few years a people will see that the Israelis did not kill the boy or father.

This site is run by a group that Dr. Sami Al-Arian helped found while he was a student at the University of Illinois. Al-Arian then went on to fortune and fame in south Florida, where he recently has run into a bit of bad luck job wise, due to unflattering publicity regarding his propensity of inciting hate by chanting: "Let us damn America, let us damn Israel, let us damn them and their allies until death." Then later claimed that he didn't mean it "literally."

Ironically, Al-Arian disassociated himself from the IAP when he left Illinois as he thought they were becoming too radicalized. God help us all.

Wayne #20:

I think you're missing their point. I think everyone agrees that the Palestinians themselves shot this little boy. But the point is, even if the Israelis were the ones who accidentally shot the boy, the blame would still fall to the Palestinians for starting this whole shootout.

Scott...its from alAhram

[Link: www.google.com...]

Don't know if you've already spotted this, but another "straight to the point" article by Mark Steyn for all the clueless in the west at:

Jewish World Review

26: John

ah .. gotcha! Thanks, I see where you're going, then. Guess I was in super-defensive mode

(apologies to anyone I might of offended for my misunderstanding)

W.

Scott (22),

Here are a few Jenin quotes from last spring which I found particularly interesting, in light of all the strident and indignant Pal claims we have heard since September 2000. The quotes are all taken from Reuters interviews with PA and Hamas fighters in Jenin. They are no longer online in public sites, as far as I know, so here is some ugly truth from Pal fighters from some old files [plus comments]:

"Then, Palestinian medics came to the building and said the Israelis had approved evacuating women and children. Some of us put on women's robes and filed out with them. We got taken to a clinic outside town, where we sneaked away." [So much for the uniforms and open bearing of arms required for Geneva Convention protection!]

"Mohammed, 25, a fighter for the Islamic radical group Hamas, said all militant units were dug in and primed for battle when the Israeli army crashed into Jenin on April 3. " [From a Pal civilian point of view, what a great choice of battlefield!]

"We started scrambling from house to house. We smashed holes in the walls to pile through and keep moving." [Destruction of property solely an Israeli "crime", anyone?]

I don't think the PA has ever accepted the UN "no massacre" version of events. Anyway, here is a BBC link to a summary of the UN's view. If even Reuters, the BBC and the UN don't set a Syrian straight, I don't know what will.

Oh, BTW, Nasty + Glazer = a marriage made in heaven, or somewhere else of an inversely related nature. Please honeymoon elsewhere, happy couple.

Riverman, Scott...

[Link: www.ahram.org.eg...]

Of his group of 30 gunmen, only four escaped from the camp on Wednesday, after the Palestinian arsenal ran dry. Most of the others were shot dead.

"Of all the fighters in the West Bank we were the best prepared," he says. "We started working on our plan: to trap the invading soldiers and blow them up from the moment the Israeli tanks pulled out of Jenin last month."

Omar and other "engineers" made hundreds of explosive devices and carefully chose their locations.

"We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them," he said.

"We cut off lengths of mains water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four metres apart throughout the houses -- in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas."

The fighters hoped to disable the Israeli army's tanks with much more powerful bombs placed inside rubbish bins on the street. More explosives were hidden inside the cars of Jenin's most wanted men.

Connected by wires, the bombs were set off remotely, triggered by the current from a car battery.

According to Omar, everyone in the camp, including the children, knew where the explosives were located so that there was no danger of civilians being injured. It was the one weakness in the plan.

"We were betrayed by the spies among us," he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators. "If it hadn't been for the spies, the soldiers would never have been able to enter the camp. Once they penetrated the camp, it was much harder to defend."

And what about the explosion and ambush last Tuesday which killed 13 soldiers?

"They were lured there," he says. "We all stopped shooting and the women went out to tell the soldiers that we had run out of bullets and were leaving." The women alerted the fighters as the soldiers reached the booby- trapped area.

"When the senior officers realised what had happened, they shouted through megaphones that they wanted an immediate cease-fire. We let them approach to retrieve the men and then opened fire.

"Some of the soldiers were so shocked and frightened that they mistakenly ran towards us."

On Wednesday, after the fighters ran out of ammunition, he says, armoured vehicles roamed the streets calling out to them in Arabic: "You are finished and can't win against us. We are more powerful than you. Surrender."

He saw one fighter who went down to the street with his hands in the air shot dead by snipers. He chose to flee the camp, although he will not say how.

Using his left arm, Omar shot a revolver during the gun battles.

With a new intensity on his face, he leans forward to ask a question. Do I think the doctors will be able to give him a strong new artificial arm with fingers he can operate. I don't know, I say. Why?

"Because I want to be able to hold a heavy rifle again. That way I can kill more Israeli soldiers. It's that or become a suicide bomber."

The gift shop on that site (IAP) features some very interesting (and telling) products.
The "Palestine" logo is a map of the entirety of Israel...just like the patch on Yasser's uniform and his official letterhead. Nothing new really, but something I always spot in this king of garbage.

ooops!
I meant to type "kind of garbage".
But, "king of garbage" might work too.

...

re: 34

I guess the obvious reason that there is no blood on the wall is because there is no exit wound - bullet just lodged in his body somewhere. Or maybe even went through one (the kid) and into the other (the father). Also, if the sniper was aiming at the child, his angle of fire would be pretty low, especially since it looks like the al Dura is laying down. The shot may have gone through him and hit the street (lots of blood on the ground)

W.

thanks everyone for the help.

Riverman: He actually worked for the UN refugee commision, but I'm sure he'll dispute the report, claiming that Israel wouldn't let them [UN] do a throrough investigation.

Here is a complete gallery of Intifada death art by the same artist.
[Link: www3.sympatico.ca...]

#37- I went to that site to see some of the Intifada art. The artist is Lebanese. What really is dismaying, though, is that this guy lives in Toronto and went to school in Iowa. Don't know why I expected him to live in the middle east, but I just assumed he did.

Remember that old saying "You can take the man out of the country but you can't take the country out of the man" or something similar to that. Well, in this case, you can take the middle easterner out of the middle east, but you can't take the middle east out of the middle easterner.

Hey Scott,

A UN investigation and imprimatur should not be required in the age of the internet, especially when it comes to Jenin. Few nasty battles in the huge war of radical Islam versus the rest which is underway right now have received more coverage. Will your Syrian dispute even how the Pals fought in Jenin, and what their choices mean for the war as a whole? G-d, denial is a powerful force.

I often remember what some of the IDF guys thought in Jenin. "We lost two dozen men. The Americans, they just would have bombed the place, not losing one of their own." That's something for all people, starting with the radical Arabs, to chew on.

#38 kathyn,

or

You can lead an Islamist to peace, but you can't make him peaceful.

but at least you can repair his artwork and poetry.
[Link: vinylfrontier.com...]

Does anyone know of proof that the boy really was killed?

Is the death registered anyplace?

[Link: www.iap.org...]

Is the updated site.