There is a large misconception that the PLO has some big and great PR machine.

The fact is they DONT it is the mainstream western media that is THE PLO's PR machine.

The western media is the one who does the great PR and bias work for the PLO and other anti-jewish terrorist groups.

ANTI-SEMITISM is NOW PC (Politically Correct).

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think the Palestinians and Arab states in general spit out a lot of self-serving lies which get picked up in the western media due to their complete ignorance about the history of the region.

this is the PR Israel should be televising...

each of the 14 points, should have its own "clip"...

this is what i was trying to say, on another site.

P.S. to these Fundamental Truths ...

The Middle East will use the existence of Isreal to deny their own culpability for the decrepit and corrupt state of their culture. This is called "projection", or what psychologists term the act of hating others for the perceived faults that they despise most in themselves.

Until, by force or otherwise, arab states realize this, and decry literal interpretations of the Koran, there is no hope for any improvement in their state of affairs.

Some much-needed historical perspective and some very good "talking points" here. Thanks, Charles.

I second ploome--AFTER Israel reminds the world (or at least the US) that she has a far greater history of upholiding human rights. The Israelis have been protrayed as bloodthirsty madmen by the western media (which I agree with Glazer, is the Paleostinian/Arab unpaid PR machine, and which does a far greater job for them than they could ever do for themselves) for so long that no one will care about these points until Israel cleans up the first misconception.

It is all true and it all needs to be said.

Ironically, it is not the government of Israel that is saying it.

Prime Minister Sharon does not say it. He just keeps talking about getting back to negotiations to give the PLO a state in the heart of Israel.

Foreign Minister Peres, the Frankenstein who created the Oslo Monster, is not saying it. He does not even believe it himself.

What Israel really needs most desperately is an Israeli government that is on the side of the nation and its rights.

Not that I agree with this but it is easy to imagine regional natives balking at the very first point. "After all" the arguement might go,"who are the colonialists to tell us how to divide our land?"

Internecine fighting has been a way of life in the Arab/Islamic world for generations. The image that comes to mind is that of fighting syblings. They'll go at it tooth and nail until some outsider tries to break up the conflict. The sybs will then unite to rid themselves of the interloper simply so they can go back to battling amongst themselves. One thing Israel represents to the bickering syblings is that authoritarian voice telling them to stop.

mommy,

I disagree there should be an order in dispelling the myths. The myths are trotted out asymetrically, there is no rhyme or reason to them.

I think the historical facts presented in that piece are much more powerful points to be driven home since it begins at the root of all this.

The whole issue of Human Rights is a red herring, and only the trully moronic lefty toads, like the 19 year olds on college campuses buy this crap.

They respond better to factual history, if they respond at all.

Israel should be kicked in the arse for everytime Peres or Barak get on TV and fail to reference at least 3 of the key points in that 14 point list.

What the hell is wrong with them? Are they trully SO inept at PR? We continue to be flabbergasted by it. It's been discussed here *many* times.

I don't know what it's going to take.

Unfortunately, I do not think that there is much of anything the Israelies can do to convince the world of the righteousness of their cause. As long as they are more powerful than the palestinians, the story the mainstream media along with the acedamy and the europeans will always say is that both sides are equally at fault (cycle of violence) or that it is the Israelies that are at fault. Underdog stories are always easy to side with.

When people see suffering they want to blame someone and it is "judgemental" to blame the people suffering (the "vicitms"). Therefore the obvious candidate for blame is the powerful group. This is the same reason the U.S. government will always be hated around the world until it has an enemy as powerful as the U.S.S.R. was. Remember that Arafat has never actually done anything for peace but has talked about it a lot. This got him a Nobel peace prize and the respect of the world, even though the only way he got to be in power was by killing innocents. Combine all this with anti-semitism and I do not think Israel will ever have a chance to be treated justly or fairly by the world until it lets itself be beaten, and then it will not exist anymore.

Right. Fact is people will either respect "the fourth most powerful army in the world" (i.e. the IDF) or disdain them.

I agree with Ben that all myths need exploding at all times, but I also agree with Mommydoc that special emphasis must be made on Israel's true record on human rights and character as a democracy. I've read that poll numbers go up when it is reminded that Israel is a democracy. Many people either don't remember or don't even know that. In fact, just last week a well meaning poster here at LGF kept insisiting that Israel was a theocracy. No, Israel is not a theocracy. That's probably a more common misperception than many of us realize since Israel is, after all, "the Jewish state".

James,

The point that Israel is doing bad PR is not true.

The fact is the PR Israel does is not accepted and dispersed by the western mainstream media like it does so readily with some PLO on a corner somehwere.

Remember, ANTI-SEMITISM is PC (politically Correct) now.

We all know how earnestly the mainstream media tries to be PC, right?

Michael,

There are fence-sitters and good people who are just confused. Obviously good PR isn't going to convince antisemites any more than good PLO PR is going to convince me. We should reach those who are reachable.

LGF'ers may also recall this excellent 20 facts primer. Required reading for the historically challenged.

[Link: www.empoweramerica.org...]

Another point to consider: Western news organizations are in business. They want readers, viewers and listeners, and to get that? You've got to have a story that sells. Now, with that in mind, imagine a hypothetical editor of news agency XYZ. He gets a story from some Arab state-sponsored news agency full of ire and desperation and descriptions of their horrible oppressors. He also gets a version of the story without hatred and evil, a story that makes it sound like basic stupidity by the "oppressed" of the first story.

Which will he print? Which will sell better?

I'm not saying this is the only thing which contributes to media slant, but certainly it's a factor.

#13 I doubt that the fence sitters at this point will be easily convinced. Most have just chosen not to judge because it is too hard to make a choice. One side strives for peace and tries to avoid killing innocents, while the other says peace is not its goal and intentionally blows up innocents. What more evidence could you need than what has happened in the past two years that only Israel wants peaceful coexistance? Does Israel have a right to exist or doesn't it? These are not very complicated questions, but you have to make a choice on one side or the other. But it is easier on the mind to not do anything.

I used to believe peace was possible and that negotiations might work. I believe now that there are too many people out there who do not think peace is acceptable as long as Israel exists and who will not stop fighting Israel until killed.

Superfly,

I respectfully disagree. I can't begin to tell you how many people have told me a variation of "I had some sympathy for the Palestinian plight until I saw them dancing on "9/11/01..."

Sometimes what's needed is an eye-opener.

Just to contrast the point, take the situation in N. Ireland. I'm not knowledgable about it at all. The only thing I know for certainty is that terrorism = bad -- period. So the IRA = bad. However, am I out of line in thinking that perhaps the Brits have no business there? I am sure there are so many facts I'm ignorant of, points I'm overlooking, history I'm ignoring etc. The whole thing just confuses me. At least I am capable of the moral clarity that says "terrorism is bad". But many people view Israel the same way. They just don't know what to think.

These people can become friends if they are reached out to and told the truth in a clear and concise manner.

Off-topic, but MEMRI has a new piece up that's worth checking out. It's a letter to a paper in London by the father of a suicide bomber, in which he marvels at what consummate cowards and hypocrites Pali leaders are. Excerpt:

I ask, on my behalf and on behalf of every father and mother informed that their son has blown himself up: "By what right do these leaders send the young people, even young boys in the flower of their youth, to their deaths?" Who gave them religious or any other legitimacy to tempt our children and urge them to their deaths?

Yes, I say "death," not "martyrdom." Changing and beautifying the term, or paying a few thousand dollars to the family of the young man who has gone and will never return, does not ease the shock or alter the irrevocable end. The sums of money [paid] to the martyrs' families cause pain more than they heal; they make the families feel that they are being rewarded for the lives of their children.

Do the children's lives have a price? Has death become the only way to restore the rights and liberate the land? And if this be the case, why doesn't a single one of all the sheikhs who compete amongst themselves in issuing fiery religious rulings, send his son? Why doesn't a single one of the leaders who cannot restrain himself in expressing his joy and ecstasy on the satellite channels every time a young Palestinian man or woman sets out to blow himself or herself up send his son?

Why, until this very moment, haven't we seen one of the sons, or daughters, of any of these people don an explosive belt and go out to carry out in deed, not in words, what their fathers preach day and night?

I wonder.

This is the Palestinian National Authority's take on history [Link: www.minfo.gov.ps...] I can't decide what's the most ludicrous - the candidates in "Key Historical Events" are far too numerous -- but I do like the way this narrative neatly sidesteps the issue of Arab military aggression. Additionally, one or two important facts seem to be missing here from the conclusion of the narrative; can anyone fill in the blanks? Maybe a Fisking is in order?

"In the framework of the third pulse of the second stage of redeployment, Israeli army withdrew on March 3, 2000 from 6.1 percent of the West Bank. This withdrawal coincided with the resumption of the Palestinian - Israeli negotiations in Washington, aimed at reaching a framework agreement on the permanent settlement by mid May.

"The redeployment included 5.1% turned from area B to area A under full Palestinian control and 1% from area C to A. By concluding the third pulse of redeployment the total area under full or partial Palestinian control is estimated at 40% of the West Bank and accordingly 60% of the Palestinians in the West Bank became under full Palestinian control. The Palestinian village Anata near Jerusalem was supposed to be handed over to the PNA in the framework of the third pulse of the redeployment process, as Israeli PM Barak promised. But later on he caved in to the Israeli right extremist's pressure and backtracked from his promise on the pretext that all issues related to Jerusalem will be discussed in the final status negotiations."

#17 I agree with a lot of what you say. For instance I agree with "The only thing I know for certainty is that terrorism = bad -- period. So the IRA = bad". I also agree with you that the Brits should not hae been in Ireland in the first place (to simplify things I agree with the IRA's cause more than the PLO). But, I do not think it is too hard to say that the IRA's cause was just, but there tactics were not. Therefore lets blow the hell out of the IRA and then go talk to the non-violent or non-terrorist pro-Ireland people about how to help them. I have no problem with using violence to achieve political ends as long as you ar not targeting civilians.

From U.S. history lets pick John Brown. Abolishing slavery was surely a just cause. What John Brown did, taking broadswords to the heads of anyone who disagreed with him, was wrong no matter how just his cause. Had he pressed his cause in our nations courts or legislatures or waited for the civil war and joined the Union army that would have been fine. I will even submit it would have been kind of ok if he had attacked slaveowners, if we ignore the vigilante aspect of it. But not civilians. His attack on harpers ferry was less wrong because (if I remember correctly) he was attacking soldiers (while treason, it is not terrorism). I do not think that is too difficult a distinction to make.

With the palestinians, if you do not think Israel has a right to exist and the land should all go to the palestians (a tenable position that I disagree with), fine. Go attack Israel's armies. However, the PLO, Hamas, etc. know they will lose so they choose to attack babies and women etc. Even if I agreed with the PLO's cause I would say their tactics are wrong.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but this is an interesting site, which includes The Palestinian Charter [Link: www.minfo.gov.ps...] If you can state your nefarious, outlandish and violent intent and rationale like this and still get good PR, you're pretty good at it. Articles 9 & 15 are particularly chilling.

From the intro: "This document shows how fake the allegations of the Israeli previous government headed by Netanyahu and media about an alleged Palestinian non commitment to implement the Palestinian commitments in the peace process."

"Article 4:
The Palestinian personality is an innate, persistent character that will not (sic) extinct, and is inherited by sons from parents."

"Article 6:
Jews who were living permanently in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians. (For the Zionist invasion is considered to have begun in 19171 [sic].)"

"Article 9:
Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine and is therefore a strategy and not a tactic."

"Article 15
: (sic) The liberation of Palestine from the Arab view point is a national duty to repulse the Zionist, imperialist invasion from the great Arab homeland and to purge it from the Zionist presence ."

James #17:

The Ulster (N. Ireland) question is perhaps even more complex than Israel-Palestine question. Here's a brief historical outline:

English intervention in Irelend's internal politics started during the reign of Henry II (father of richard lionheart) in the middle of the 12th century AD. This is what Irish nationalists mean when they talk about "800 years of oppression."

Things really heated up under Elizabeth I because she (or at least, her government's ministers) tried to enforce her claim to being the sovereign of Ireland as well as of England. The political question was complicated by the fact that newly-Protestant Englend was fighting for its survival against a backlash by Europe's Catholic regimes, most notably Spain, and Ireland was overwhelmingly Catholic.

Elizabeth was the first English monarch to systematically attempt to extend direct control of Ireland beyond the area of the Dublin Pale - previous English rulers had pretty much been content to claim the overlordship of Ireland while letting the Gaelic chieftains and Anglo-Irish aristocracy do whatever it pleased. The Elizabethan campaigns to assert control of Ireland led to the rise of Irish nationalism and its inextricable linkage with Catholicism.

Elizabeth's successor, James Stuart, tried to combat Irish religious nationalism in the early 17th century by planting colonies of Scots Calvinists in Ulster in an attempt to counterbalance the power of the native Catholic Irish. The descendants of these colonists are the Ulster Protestants of Northern Ireland, who today make up about two thirds of Northern Ireland's population. Traditionally, the lot of Catholics in Ulster (and indeed throughout Ireland before the Irish Free State was established in the 1920s) was similar to that of African Americans in the American South in the 19th century: few civil rights and no franchise.

The Irish Republican Army, which forced the English to withdraw from most of Ireland in the 1920s, has been trying to get "The Brits" out of Ulster ever since then. Unfortunately for the IRA, the Protestant Ulstermen refuse to leave, believing that they have as much right to be there as the Catholics do. They also fear that their culture and influence will be subsumed by a dominant Irish Catholic culture if Ulster is ever forced to join the Republic of Ireland.

There are centuries of ill-will and misunderstanding on both sides, made worse by a culture of blood feud and revenge killings that boiled over in 1970 and continued pretty much unabated until four or five years ago. Most people in Ulster, Protestant and Catholic, just want the trouble to stop, but the hard men on either side are afraid of what might happen to them if the other side comes out on top. There is still a great deal of religious bigotry on both sides, as well.

Both sides have resorted to terror to try to advance their aims, and on the IRA side it's been complicated by a sort of half-baked Marxism that considers Ulster Protestants to be the dupes of the English ruling class. Mostly, though, it's just gangsterism and thuggery with overtones of tribal warfare.

I was a supporter of the IRA's aims for years (although my connection to Ulster comes from a Protestant great-grandmother who emigrated to Canada in the 19th century) because I believed that justice and the weight of history were on their side - after all, the Prots were aliens, planted on Irish soil by a foreign power, blablabla. I no longer support the IRA, however, because they have not renounced the use of violence and terrorism to further their aims. I don't support the Protestant militants either. I take some comfort in the fact that both sides are talking, and that they appear to understand that continued sectarian violence will doom them to another generation of failure and despair. Compare Ulster to the rest of Ireland: the Republic is booming, but Ulster is a stagnant backwater of failing heavy industry and high unemployment - this hasn't gone unnoticed in Ulster.

I don't believe that Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine are equivalent situations, despite their superficial similarities. It's closer to what's been happening in the former Yugoslavia, although that's not a direct parallel either.

My apologies for the length of this post, but there's no way to condense it any further and still make sense.

Superfly #20:

You're right; John Brown is a good example - I wish I'd thought of him!

Belief in peaceful co-existence with the Muslim states, is a hazard in itself. Once people learn that alternative measures to ersatz diplomacy, are no longer mere options for resolution of the current crisis, then we can deal with the mortal enemies of civilization.

The life purpose of all Muslims is the irradication of freedom. Recognize that and you will understand that respecting the human dignity of Muslims, is the equivalent to praying for your own executioner.

Step #1: confiscate all personal wealth of every Muslim who donated to the terror-zakats (JIHAD "charities"), and strip them of the citizenship of a civilized state. De-populate all hostiles from civilization, and treat anyone who either advocates or practices Islamic veiling, as a hostile.

Step #2: conduct mass execution of all who either financed, facilitated financing of, or practiced training in the production of or use of weapons of mass destruction, in training camps in Pakistan, Sudan, Eritrea, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, "West Bank", "Gaza," Syria, occupied Lebanon, etc.

Step #3: de-Islamize marginal adherents to the Islamic MURDER cult, while conducting the execution of anyone who either taught or has expressed belief in JIHAD as a means for the extermination of non-Muslims ("kafirs").

Step #4: re-patriate to civilization, the Persian Gulf and Red Sea oil pools which have been used to finance JIHAD, and maintain same for use by the productive world, and prohibit sovereign control by Muslims of any strategic resource.

Step #5: disarm all of the Islamic states, under threat of annihilation, and prohibit both the production of any type of weapon as well as trade in same.

Step #5: outlaw the Organization of the Islamic Conference and the League of Arab States, and restrict membership to the United Nations, to peoples to whom its Charter is not anathema.

Step #6: outlaw Islamic indoctrination ("dawah"), and recognize Islam as a MURDER cult, that perverts the religiosity of civilized peoples.

Any other positions can only be characterized as arguments for the status quo which licenses permanent Islamic aggression. Those who believe that civilization should bear the incessant stress of Islam, that strains our corporal integrality, are indulging their own executioner. Koranic JIHAD means: the mind of every Muslim is a FORWARD-BASE, and their bodies are MURDER-WEAPONS.

Koran 51:56 (the Arab tribal god entity): "I created the jinn (vexatious demons) and mankind for the sole purpose that they worship me."

Koran 9:33 Mohammed: "(allah) sent his prophet with the guidance (hidayeh) and Islamic religion (din) so that he may grant victory over every other religion."

Koran 9:5 VERSE OF THE SWORD. Mohammed: "Kill the enemy (kafir) wherever you find them."

KAFIR-KOOSHI (Islamic sacramental MURDER of non-believers).

Sheik Abdullah (slave-of-god) Azzam (mentor of Osama bin Laden): "JIHAD must not be abandoned until allah alone is worshipped by mankind...JIHAD and the rifle alone, no negotiations...no conferences...and no dialogue."

Critics: it doesn't matter if belief in peaceful co-existence with the external and internal Muslim enemy, still holds your mind in captivity; what matters is that the enemy is not burdened by said belief.

Every muslim is a terror weapon, Mr. Agenda? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? And he was so funny in that airplane movie. Muhammed Ali? How could they let him so near that Olypmic torch? Who knows what he might have done. The horror.

From what I remember from my reading fact number 1 is inaccurate in that Britain did not get the approval of the League of Nations to split Mandatory Palestine in two. The San Remo conference of 1920 conferred the Mandates for Mesopotamia and Palestine on Britain.

"Second thoughts had counseled the British to separate Trans-Jordania under the 1922 White Paper from the terms of the Mandate; but with that exception the Mandate was allowed to stand as drafted at San Remo and as confirmed by the League [of Nations--A.L.] and ratified by its members in 1922"---Bible and the Sword - Barbara Tuchman - Papermac edition 1982- pages 344-45.

If I remember correctly Britain was assigned the Mandate in December of 1922. Between that time and between the time that the Mandate came into force in January 1923 the British unilaterally declared that the Mandate would not apply to Trans-Jordan so that they could create a kingdom for the Hashemites(the great-grandfather of the present king of Jordan) who were originally from what is now Saudi Arabia, when they lost out in the power struggle to the Sauds who presently rule Saudi Arabia. At the same time the Brits gave Iraq to
the brother of the Emir of Trans-Jordan.

It's also interesting to note that the reason the Hashemites lost out to the Sauds in the contest for the Arabian peninsula was because the Brits decided to support the Sauds ,as the India Office ,which felt the Sauds were more reliable, beat out the Foreign Office who supported the Hashemites.

I can't fact check the matter of the Brits unilaterally breaking off Trans-Jordan until tomorrow morning (it's just after midnight here in Israel) but I should be able to get back to the thread within 12 hours with a definate finding.

#24 I wonder if the Muslims I used to go drinking with in college were as dangerous as you seem to think they were. They were distracting me from my studies! The horrors!
The obvious response: They must all be destroyed! Mu-ha ha ha ha ha!

I do not judge all Christians or Jews by selective quotes from the the bible. I judge them by their actions. Hopefully someday you will learn to judge people as individuals. I have only been reading this site for a few weeks, but I doubt you are going to convince many of us through your sweeping generalizations. There are many things I dislike about Islam and the cultures and many of the people that currently practice it. I can distinguish that from all muslims must be destroyed.

more'truth' about the ME from PBS.....throught Opinion Journal....

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

A PBS Web site called Global Connections, intended as a resource for teachers, features a timeline of Middle East history. It begins in the year 622 with the founding of Islam. Didn't we once hear something about a couple of other major religions starting in the Middle East before 622?

"#8 NTropy 10/7/2002 11:46AM PST

Not that I agree with this but it is easy to imagine regional natives balking at the very first point. "After all" the arguement might go,"who are the colonialists to tell us how to divide our land?'"

It should be pointed out that the Mandate was set up to deal with lands that had been part of the Ottoman Empire which lost World War I.
It is a well-recognized principle that sovereign countries can cede parts of their own lands to other countries. Turkey, under the terms of the armistice in 1918 left her dominions at the disposal of the Allies. The Mandates came into force as a result of the formal peace treaty with Turkey which was signed at Lausanne in Sept. 1923.(known by a curious coincidence as the Treaty of Lausanne.)

Bottom line- the land belonged to the Ottoman Turks--it was theirs to do with as they pleased--they lost the war and in the framework of the armistice and Treaty they gave up Palestine and Mesopotamia to be administered by the Mandatory powers .The Mandate incorporated the Balfour Declaration and since the Mandate was an international engagement, signed and ratified by the Principal Allied Powers acting through the League of Nations the Balfour Declaration acquired the status of a treaty. Since the Mandate with all it's conditions was signed before the formal peace treaty with Turkey at Lausanne in 1923 it means that Turkey ,the sovereign owner of those lands, knowingly ceded those lands to the Mandate which expressingly incorporated the Balfour Declaration. All this was in accordance with public international law.

The position of Arabs that were in those lands are no different from the position of various ethnic groups that were part of multi-ethnic empires that felt apart , like the Austro-Hungarian empire which also collapsed at the end of World War I.

Palestinian PR explained.....

[Link: uahc.org...]

superfly #27:

Do you know anything about Islamic ethics or jurisprudence (fiqh)? All four of the major schools of Islamic thought, hold JIHAD conscription to be obligatory (fard). Jamaat-i-Islami extremists from the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" dictated that American members of the Islamic Society of North America, assist financing of Taleban, through the terror-zakats (JIHAD-"charities") and members responded to that authority, on khalifa (successor to Mohammed) grounds. Muslims are under strict Sharia obligation to wage "JIHAD in the cause of allah." As the first compiler of Hadith quoted Mohammed, "Paradise is under the shadow of the sword."

The ISNA and their puppet organization, the Muslim Students Association, are fighting JIHAD on American soil. They, and others, are doing this through unaccounted financing of extremist and terrorist organizations, government subsidized indoctrination (dawah) or through direct action.

Don't take my word for it. Read the following interview link to Professor Johannes Jansen, of Holland, who translated a JIHAD conscription pamphlet, written by one of the Sadat's assassins.

[Link: www.religioscope.com...]

Then click the link for material in "English" and then scroll to "Faraj and the Neglected Duty."

I have read Jansen's translation, and if you did the same then you would have no doubt that all Muslims pose the same threat posed by the German-American Bund, in the thirties. American academics denied that threat as well. Don't make the same mistake.

Think like a JIHADI:

[Link: www.flex.com...]

#29 Aaron L.

I have no doubts about your facts. I'm just trying to imagine what we would expect to hear from those in the region today should Fact #1 be bruited about.

I bet you the argument would be that the land no more "belonged" to the Ottoman Turks than it did to those who created the division after WWI or Gaza and the West Bank belong to Israel today. It was simply in the possesion of the Ottoman Empire. Occupied territory if you will. Any other theory would lend legitimacy to the existance of Israel. *sarcasm* God knows that's impossible since we know no part of that land could have belonged to anybody else before Islamsists in 622 AD. */sarcasm*

OT, but I had to add something, having lived in Ireland (Galway and Dublin) for eight years, and having a degree in medieval history from Trinity College Dublin.

A few more facts re #22:

When the British started being involved in Ireland in the 1100s, it was because they were invited in by an Irish king/chieftan (Muragh?), who had lost his lands to another Irish king/chieftan. IIRC he approached Henry II several times asking for help getting his throne back and offering lands and marriages in return. Henry kept putting him off because he was too busy elsewhere. He finally sent aid during at time when his own wars were quiescent, because he had some restless barons and knights on his hands who were quite willing to fight among themselves and cause trouble at home if they didn't have anything better to do. This group of Norman/Welsh lords then intermarried into the Irish families, and when the reformation came, were in many cases "more Irish than the Irish" at fighting the protestants. It has always made me laugh to see an IRA supporter with a last name like Fitzgerald, which isn't Irish at all, it's Welsh Norman, from that first wave of "invaders". Of course any irishmen with red hair get it from their Viking ancestors.....

Trying to kick the Brits out of Ireland has less grounds than trying to kick all non american indians out of North America, although I know that there are those who support that cause also.

To add a few facts to Littman's:

Arabs were allies of the Nazis (so who's really today Nazis?). The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem sat out World War 2 in Berlin as guest Der Fuehrer. There are some indications (so I cannot swear this is absolute documented fact) that it was the Grand Mufti who suggested "The Final Solution" at dinner, and Hitler's henchment worked out the details.

Arabs in the western portion of the original British Mandate of Palestine, i.e. what became renamed as "Palestine" after division of Trans-Jordan, often killed Jews throughout the period of the British Protectorate. No Jew dared stray into "Arab areas" - they were strictly segregated into limited areas - on threat of death from Arabs. After the UN vote of partition, Arabs began a campaign to wipe out Jews and moderate Arabs even before they invaded on May 15, 1948.

In the original partition agreement, Arabs agreed to a Jewish homeland, the Jordan was the dividing line between the Arab and Isreal-to-be states, but then Arabs held up enactment of the original agreement, trying numerous ruses to further carve up the Mandate and reduce the area supposed to be for Isreal.

Ayatollah Khomeini called the US the Great Satan and declared Jihad against the US in 1979. Other mullahs have reiterated that declaration of war over the past 23 years. Americans cannot get it through their thick skulls that terrorism by Hussein, Osama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda, plus Hamas, Hezbollah, Gema'a al Islamiya, etc. are all parties to a declared war against the Great Satan, i.e. the USA, as we call it.

Alah is NOT the same as the Judeo-Christian God. Muslims worship Allah, and all those who worship God are infidels.

Islam is a religion of peace. According to the tenets of Islam, there will be peace on earth, a new age of the Garden of Eden, WHEN ALL ARE TRUE BELIEVERS AND PERFORM THE FIVE ACTS OF TRUE BELIEVERS, i.e when everyone who survives is a muslim. This is why Muslims have repeatedly waged war and engaged in world conquest since the 7th century.

To continue...
Massive Islamic immigration to the US only began after Khomeini's declaration of war. Before that, the few people from Arab countries who immigrated to the US (from Lebanon, for example) were predominently Christians fleeing Muslim persecution.

Periods of jihad often coincide with bulges in Muslim population. Many Muslims are poor because their religion demands mass procreation to fill the earth with True Believers. However, the Kondratieff cycle (a long-wave economic cycle) correlates with population-growth rates. When a population bulge hits the job market, there is economic upheaval, inflation and job stagnation simultaneously - just as we saw when the Boomers were mvoing into the job market from 1969 - 1983. War is a frequent concommitent of these population bulges. Muslim birth rates are some of the highest in the world. If it weren't for oil (in fact, in spite of oil) most of the Muslim world is impoverished and there are no jobs for young men. So jihad rises - plenty of men to spare.

The same economic facts hold for Northern Ireland. Catholics have a birth rate at least double that of Protestants. This keeps them impoverished. Since Catholics are much more likely to produce more children than they can afford to care for and educate, there is a glut of low-skilled labor, further depressing low-skilled wages.

The rich get richer, the poor beget children. When people take responsibility for their procreation and only produce one or two they can well afford to feed, house, educate, etc. they can become more affluent. Every country with a high population growth rate (high birth rate and/or high immigration rate) impoverishes itself. This is why US per capita income is actually declining. This is why Saudi per capita income - despite its oil wealth - is one-quarter of what it was twenty-five years ago.

Sorry to go so long...

Another site that presents facts, and attempts to disperse the hyperbole and bias....

[Link: www.palestinefacts.org...]

Amadeus9 #35:

Re. Islamism and population increase: Iran's doubling of its population in a twenty year span is positive proof of this trend. The cause? The Mullahtocracy legalized pedophilia, because Islamic SUNNA (example of the "prophet") demands male emulation of Mohammed's consummation of a "marriage" with a girl of "nine." Only last May, Iran raised the age of marriage to "thirteen." They did so, because the pedophilia-emancipation had led to high unemployment.

When the next Muslim blow is inflicted on civilization, a window will be open to ideas of de-Islamization. You might consider taking the leap into reality that the quixotic CONCILIATORS won't make. In the meantime, watch a preventable disaster occur in Pakistan. See:

[Link: www.jamaat.org...]

NTropy #32

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you but it's 9:53 a.m. now in Israel and I just turned on the computer.

I have no doubt that the Arabs would try to make the argument that you raised but in doing so they would be doing what they so often do which is willfully distorting history.

At the time that the armistice between the Ottoman Empire signed the armistice with the Allies it was already approximately 800 years old. The head of the empire was the Caliph, i.e. not only the secular ruler of a Muslim state but the religious leader of all of the world's Muslims. ( see Bernard Lewis's Islam and the West and What Went Wrong? the books are at home so I can't give you the exact pages.)

The ruler of the Empire was the ruler of the Muslim world and had been so for 800 years. Palestine and Mesopotamia were not separate countries but integral administrative units of the Empire and had been so for at least 800 years. Palestine "belonged" as much to the Ottoman Empire as Maryland "belongs" to the U.S.

The idea that Palestine was a separate national unit that was somehow occupied by the Ottomans is simply historically inaccurate.

Bernard Lewis also pointed out (either in Islam and the West or What Went Wrong?) that in the Arab lands the idea of separate countries was a foreign concept and appeared only during the 20th century as a result of Western influences.

# 22 Dick Winnepeg

previous English rulers had pretty much been content to claim the overlordship of Ireland while letting the Gaelic chieftains and Anglo-Irish aristocracy do whatever it pleased.

Thanks for the condensed history. Were not the Anglo-Irish aristocracy part of the implantation?

# 26 Aaron,

At the same time the Brits gave Iraq to the brother of the Emir of Trans-Jordan.

And... if I'm not mistaken, a third brother got Syria...

Of course, Iraq and Syria got rid of their Hashemite kings, but Jordan (Jordan is Palestine for me) has yet to succeed.

Where did the Ulster protestants come from - Scotland - Where do the Scots come from - Ulster!!! The Protestants are returning to their land!!! They are the real indigenous people - just like the Welsh/cornish are the true indigenous people of England. The invasions at the end of the roman empire created modern europe. However if leftists continue to tryand turn the clock back 50 years in Israel - lets trun it back 1500 - then everything is fair.

Jordan IS palestine (or 78% of it, anyway).

Knock out the midget king, give jordan to the pals, tranfer the rabid pals out of Judea and Samaria, and presto, everyone's happy.

#42 Sounds good to me.

another little known fact - but about israel:it started the 1967 war:

Israeli leaders have consistently said the Golan is too important to Israel's defense to return. Until Israel captured the plateau in the 1967 Mideast War, Syria often shelled Israeli border communities from its vantage point on the Golan. According to Dayan, Israel deliberately provoked the shootings as a pretext to attack. "We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot,'' Dayan said. "If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further,'' he said. Dayan said pressure from Israel's kibbutzim, or farming communities, led to the land grab. "Along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps -- there was only the Syrian army,'' he said. "The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land ... and they dreamed about it.'' Amos Eran, a government official at the time of the war, said Dayan's regret came from the fact that he wanted the heights only as a bargaining chip. "Dayan didn't want the government to allow the kibbutzim to build there afterwards -- he hoped to trade it back for peace,'' Eran said.

[Link: www.mideastfacts.com...]

In June l967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." -- Menachem Begin in The New York Times, August 21, 1982
[Link: www.mideastfacts.com...]

some more facts Litman overlooked:

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

2.Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

5.Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

6.Did you know that US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbors.

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian laborers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified laborers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed laborers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestininan territory in 1948?

20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."

21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?

22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.

23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?

24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?

25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?

26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?

28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!

29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?

30) Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be.

[Link: sydney.indymedia.org...]

I do not have time to read the entire post, but a couple of things are really lovely.

24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?

That's a beauty!

30) Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be.

I think you mean Tutu.

Did you know that you are a lying sack of she-it, "brian?"

US aid is more than the entire aid package to the continent of Africa? Newsflash, nutjob: The last I looked, EGYPT is on the African continant. We give those assholes about 5 billion a year... and they engage in as many nasty things as you list for Isreal. Only they beat down Christian Copts as well as J-E-W-S.

I stopped reading your hate after point six. Because how many times does a person have to lie before they are known as a liar? ONE TIME.

Back to Concordia, or Bezerkly, or whatever rock you rolled out from under... you worthless piece of worthlessness. Your worth is less than the worth of most worthlessly worthless worth in worthville. Worth me.

r.

Come on zulubaby, you know how all those arab spokespersons are "Dr.'s" now we know what the "P" (alestine) stands for in their PhDs.

My favorite:

" Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character? "

And your point is what?

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

Hey, lying moron. Iraq did do that. Ever hear of the USS Stark? And guess what? The US did nothing about it.

The rest of the screed from "brian" was filled with an amazing assortment of misrepresentations and lies.

Brian,

"20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable." "

It might just come down to that. Your point is? FYI the venom spewing from mosques is much, much worse than what this rabbi is alledged to have said.

This lie infuriated me:

29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?

First of all, Israel only captured the area in '67. That's the first lie. The rest is a lie because the area remains controlled by an islamic foundation and it is in fact the islamic foundation that has been radically expanding the Mosque thereby deliberately destroying the remains of the Solomonic era hebrew temple there. It is in fact the islamists who have been executing a planned program of cultural genocide against jewish holy sites. You are a real slime 'brian'.

Brian,

Did you know that there isn't a single marginally true statement in your post?

Fay,

I know! They're all doctors :-)

"24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world? "

I laughed so hard after reading this that I was in physical pain. I'm curious, what is the literacy rate among Palestinians, per capita? Hmm?

W.

Just so you know dear Brian --

One of my closest friends is Arab, Isreali, and Christian. His parents own a home in Isreal, as does his sister.

I can't refute all of your other nasty lies, because the first one made me laugh so hard that I just skipped the rest.

Brian

I'm a lawyer practicing in Israel and appear in court against a fair number of Israeli Arab lawyers.

It would certainly surprise them to hear that the homes that they bought and paid for with title registered in the Land Registery Office doesn't belong to them.

It would also surprise the residents of the Arab towns of Nazareth and Um Al Fahm , amongst others, that what they've supposed to be their homes don't really belong to them.

I'm also surprised to discover that the homes whose titles I registered for Arab clients, back in the days when I did real estate, weren't really registered.

How odd, there must be tremendous amounts of hallucinegenic drugs in our water supply to be able to cause delusions of such massive proportions.

Another possiblity of course is that you have been imbibing massive amounts of hallucinegic drugs, or what's more likely, you're just and out and out liar.

#8 NTropy,

In the case of ME colonialism - it was not intentional. It was the result of the Ottoman Empire siding with the Germans in WW1.

The French and Brits were then left with all this territory to divide up (no point allowing them unity again) and besides the Arabs wanted their own countries not unity. They got them. Now they are bitching because it hasn't turned out as they planned. Ingrates.

Most unfortunate.

Friends Brian and his ilk will never get it any time soon. You can point out facts till you are blue in the face. The facts don't match his reality. What the brain does if throw out facts that don't fit the world view.

Left at 20 right at 40 seems to be part of human nature.

From personal experience I can tell you it is not the drugs. They only distort or illuminate local reality. What has screwed up global reakity is the politics of envy. A youthful leftist specialty.

Part of what happens is that a kid leaves a nice middle class home full of goodies and then has to figure out how to get the goodies on 1/3 of what daddy makes. Because of lack of experience. But no the kid knows he is smart. Just as good as daddy so it must be oppression.

By the time you figure it out the kids are calling YOU daddy.

Ain't life grand?

Charles please bar that worthless sack of shit Brian. He is a lier and has nothing to add.

"10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces? "

This one is true isn't it? I think Brian is referring to Arieh Biro. I mean, I don't agree with the guy but facts are facts.

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

The horrors! Next thing you know they're gonna tell me that Italy plans to remain Italian.

I guess this Mossad-funded site needs to be taken down...

Oh well, it was pretty while it lasted.

Here one of the sources of Brian's "questions":

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/takpoints/did_you_ know.htm

Damn, LGF is funded by the Mossad. Who let the cat out of the bag?