As Caesar said: “Keep the legions intact, they make the laws legal”

The only hope we have of bringing Sadam to heel is the use of force. (Or the threat thereof.)

My GOD!!! I see the light!!! We've dealt with this problem ALL WRONG!!!

All we needed to do was send Barney Phyfe over to Afghanistan to ARREST bin Laden, al Zawahiri, et al, and bring them to the ICC to STAND TRIAL for their crimes!!! Then, when we were done, we would send him back over to Baghdad to serve a warrant on Sodamn Insane!

IT'S SO EASY; WHY COULDN'T WE SEE IT??!!!??

And then, when we're done, we'll all sit around the campfire, toast marshmallows, and sing "Kumbaya"!!

Effing idiots.

Last I heard, Moorcock lived in Texas, not in London. I could be wrong, but there you have it...

Also, given that many of his fans sail a bit too closely to the swirls of chaos and a very far from our common reality, would he really enter his address??

Moorcock does live near Austin (my home town) for part of the year, at least--also has a place in the UK and another in Majorca, if I remember correctly. Elric been very, very good to him.

I'm not the least bit surprised to hear of this--he's a big fan of Andrea Dworkin, for God's sake. I love his books and have passed on opportunities to meet him. Remember Chandler's remarks on the inadvisability of meeting writers you admire.

Charles, your site rocks, by the way.

Look at signature 137. I can sign the list too. Go daddy go.

Ah, the eloquence of these writers and artists!

This is not my president, in my personal opinion he is a raving lunatic,& I am intitled to that opinion, if not head for the hills someone has messed up the legal system

Dawn GoldenEagle lays a big fat egg when she writes:

As a poet, my inspiration comes from those things in life that reflect love, peace, joy, and beauty. I find little to inspire me in a country run by liars, cheaters, bullies, thieves, terrorists, bigots, and murderers. True peace can not be achieved through hurting and killing others. Only love, forgiveness, and unity for all of mankind can bring about an end to war, hatred, and violence.

Well, Dawn, I find little to inspire me reading a petition signed by morons, hacks, moonbeams, and illiterates. Folks, if you're as good at painting, dancing, singing, and writing as you are at thinking logically, better keep the day jobs. I can't believe how vapid, unoriginal, and insipid the comments of these supposedly "creative" people are.

Life sucks eh Charles?

Sorry but I can't help but be someone relieved to hear of this, though I am as equally disgusted as you are.

You see, Canada got the drop on you guys for a change. We had our own gaggle of "art-eests" sign a petition about two or three weeks ago. The usual crowd of left-wing, liberal hacks who have never done an honest days' work in their lives and who (surprize surprize) depend on the government to keep them in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.

Only in Canada you say? Oh no! In the USA too! Have another glass of Corvoisier and let's just forget about those beastly right wingers.

Pip! Pip!

Well, here's one artist who will execute the world's greatest statue in honor of those insufferable wannabes and their petition. It will be a statue about 40 feet high representing CONTEMPT, and will have a urinary member automatically pointing at the signatories and delivering a stream equivelent to the combined flows of the Tigris and Euphrates in full flood.

I'm so depressed that 'Starfish' didn't have a comment beside his/her/its name. I was intersted in what the pylum astroidea has to say about the war on terror; most likely as cogent as some of the others.

LOL

NOOO!!!

That had better not be the Moorcock. Somehow I don't think Elric, Hawkmoon, Erekose or any of his other characters would take this position.

"Those who remained now began to express their regret for their hasty attack. Where oaths and threats had issued from their mouths, now came plaintive petitions for mercy and those who had laughed with such bold braggadocio now wept like young girls, but Elric, full of his old battle-joy, spared none.

Meanwhile the man from the Purple Towns, unaided by sorcery, put ax and sword to good work and dealt with three more of his one-time comrades, exulting in his work as if had nursed a taste for it for some time. 'Yoi, but this is worthwhile slaughter!' cried the black-bearded one."

-- The Sailor on the Seas of Fate

Friends,

We should encourage as much as possible this sort of thing from those so inclined.

When the stories come out of liberated Iraq and free Iran about how the government's treated their people many of the people behind this are going to go into shock. I can see the sputtering and excuses live and in person. The left in Amreica will be utterly destroyed. It may even be enough to shift the electoral balance in Europe.

So if you have any leftie friends against the war get them to sign on to any and every petition out there. And please save copies. So we can shove it up their alimentary canals from the output end. We have to encourage as much of this kind of behavior as possible before Iraq falls. Not much time left until there is not much left left.

For those of us who weren't personally bereft by the attacks on New York, Washington, etc., there are far less painful but nonetheless notable casualties that have come about in the past year.

"Artists have both the ability and the moral obligation to combat deceit and distortion. It is the ability to illuminate even difficult truths that defines an artist."

For me, it was the final jettisoning of any faith I ever had in the ability of "creative" people to discern common sense or exercise sound political judgement. I have never heard more ill-informed, sclerotic, pollyanna-ish, dismally ignorant misperceptions as I have in the last year.

Like a lot of people who read and contribute to this forum, I actually looked up to a lot of people whose judgement I now consider more than suspect, whose "ability to imagine" seems stuck pointing in one cardinal direction, and whose reflexive complaining about "the west" has become an old, tired keening.

Old illusions die hard, but they have to die if reality renders them absurd.

As for Moorcock, I've considered him a looneypants ever since the "Hawklords" novels.

Things get pretty stupid near the end of time. I seem to recall him signing on to some other pacifist nonsense so this doesn't suprise me. I see his old bandmate from Hawkwind has chimed in (#139).

m. simon...

...sadly i'm sure all these "writers" said the exact same thing against the gulf war -- and obviously haven't changed their views one iota when it didn't turn into the "US bathing the globe in its imperialist bloodbath" they were so secretly hoping for.

i'm a writer by trade too and i've always believed in this maxim: "less is more."

so FUCK 'EM.

From another thread on lgf. In case you hadn't seen it. Iranians against anti-semitism:

[Link: www.iran-daneshjoo.org...]

Gulf War 1 did not open up enough of Iraq. This one will. Add in Iran and things will be much harder to explain.

Wierdly reminiscient of 'Atlas Shrugged'
Who's John Galt?

Methinks that list shall be pulverized before too long. I suspect that there will be a few more Hawkmates signing it, too. :-)

Since someone posted the Grouchy Media films (thanks!!!) I'd like to post a link to an excellent one done last year, set to a BOC tune:

[Link: www.blueoystercult.com...]

Dunno.

It could be Moorcock. The address is that of his London agent.

Might not be Moorcock. The London address isn't complete.

Wow, quite a fantasy world these folks live in:

Truth has been one of the casualties of the "War on Terrorism". Assassinations, bombings, and chemical and biological attacks, whether perpetrated by individuals or states, are crimes. They should be dealt with by the rule of law, and not by the use of military force.

This strategy could save billions, just liquidate the armed forces, and instead print up a bunch of arrest warrants.  How come no one has ever thought of this before?

When I was in college I wrote a paper for a history course on the reaction of the American left to Stalinism. One of the more interesting aspects of the research was reading old issues of the New Republic and the Nation. They frequently carried full page paid political messages from "artists and writers" (Lillian Hellman, for example) defending Stalin's show trials and talking about what a fabulous place the Soviet Union was. These on-line idiots are the heirs to the idiots of the 30's.

Thanks for pointing out this wretched drivel. From about post 134 on, the posts become mocking, witty, and sensible. Looks like the Little Green Footballs fan club has taken the petition to heart. Bravo! I especially like "Neville Chamberlain's" comment.

Lame. These people are writers? Poets? Arteests? Moorcock is the only name I recognize (well, other than the Voices of Reason there near the end of the list).

No Babs? No Alec? No Jewel? No Baraka? I'm sorely disappointed. Why, it's as though just anyone can consider hyr/hymself an artist these days...

("Moonbeams"! I gotta remember that one. That's great.)

Ugh!!! Charles, I love this place but sometimes it is like a gory 20 car pile-up on the intersate. You really don't want to look, but you can't help it. I guess my pursuit of honesty is more important than being disappointed in the world today...big sigh.

I hope these "artists" keep their mouths shut soon. By boycoting the idiots I am fast running out of books, movies, paintings, poems, and other forms of entertainment.

Thanks for the forum, my little vent is over. Back to the real world:-(

#11 M. Simon: Great idea, but only if the media follows up on it. As it doesn't fit their pre-conceptions, don't hold your breath waiting for Babs, Asner, etc. to have to defend their stances. Hell, Hanoi Jane is back at it again, even after admitting how wrong she was the first time.

The good news is that even the Democrats are starting to back away from the loony left. Babs got her ass handed to her by the DNC. Sooner or later the agents to the stars who are still marketable will tell them to STFU regarding politics.

Anyone expecting Moorcock to buy a plane ticket to Bali so he can scrape and bag charred DNA samples or apply antibiotic salve to the burn victims for the next few months? To fly to Iraq and tell the citizens there how he is trying his best to keep their tyrant in power? Pompous pampered poof.

Peace, man. I want piece. piece of this country, piece of that country.[marx Bros.] But seriously, I think it was The britiesh who cobbled up the area into the rich nation of diverse cultures divers we have today, Shia;60-70%, Sunni 20%, Kurd 8%, Bahai 0%(by now) Whey(N/A). Problem is, Saddam don't wanna stay in his pen.

Someone questioned the use of the term "referendum". Good point, The "election" gives the Iraqis the option of voting "yes" or "no", But doesn't that go only so far as affirming whether or not Saddam is or is not the unopposed dictator of Iraq? In other words, in a referendum one is given the option of voting "for" or "against" the item or issue on the referendum, not on whether they except reality or not. For example, when Hillarity runs in 04, the people of NYstate will get a referendum on their very first black female Senator, and it won't be very pretty, but neither is she. And she's already BEEN president, unless the item on the referendum is what the def. of is is...(apologies)

Anyway, the UN will never work because it legitimizes illegitimate, rogue regimes. And that term "international law"(!) what a joke that has been shown to be!
Also, this petion business, they talk about truth in sanctimonious terms, but its the same thing as Saddams elecion, just a referendum on whether they accept reality or not; it shows how in-tolerant they really are. they talk of oil money and trade, but that stupid Camp David "Peace Accord" was already worked out btwn Begin and Sadat, except they came to Washing tons'o'cash when they needed what? thats right, The Money! And since then, Egypt has reneged on all the trade provisions they agreed to in the Accord. Meanwhile, Israel forks over the land the won fair and square in the 6 day war (the Sinai penninsula),What I like to call a nice buffer zone. And what happened to Sadat? thats right, assassinated! "Land for Peace" indeed...

Peace at any price?, just follow these simple instructions: Put your head between your knees and Kiss Your Ass Goodbye!!

Artists have both the ability and the moral obligation to combat deceit and distortion. It is the ability to illuminate even difficult truths that defines an artist.

Wow, what bozo wrote this?

A novelist lies. Cover to cover, every word that a novelist writes is a lie. It is nothing but deceit and distortion from page one to "the end." That's the beauty of fiction. Writers get to lie for a living, and their readers beg for more.

Somebody's been smoking that funny weed again.

Just read a little bit of Vonnegut or Ellison on writing. Lies, lies, all lies!

Disappointed, yes. Disgusted, yes. Surprised, no.

I was in grad school at SUNY Albany during the first Gulf War. During a group discussion about said war, I pointed out that while oil might have been part of the equation, treaty obligations were involved, and so was the fact that if you let a tyrant take over one neighboring country, he tends to just keep going to the next and the next, taking the capitulation as a sign of weakness, just like Hitler and Chekoslovakia. I distinctly remember my shock at one of my library school classmates (who was going into public school librarianship) replying that "we should never have been involved in WWII in the first place". I just stood there gaping like a fish; couldn't even start sputtering about Pearl Harbor. This was a woman born sometime in the 50s, and, God help us, was going to be helping teach our children. I'm sure that she would be signing this petition if she found it.

Meryl,

"Just read a little bit of Vonnegut or Ellison on writing. Lies, lies, all lies!"

Please correct me if I am wrong. But wasn't "Slaughter House Five" a first person memory told from a third person account? I was always taught that Kurt actually went through a lot of the things written in the book. And that the one little paragraph written about the private puking in the corner of the "slaughterhouse" was actually supposed to be him. Any literary educators can correct me on this, just what I have been led to believe.

Mr. Lockbox (#26)

Peace at any price?, just follow these simple instructions: Put your head between your knees and Kiss Your Ass Goodbye!!

Your right. Just after that they say, “May you rest in Peace.”

The alien parts aside, of course:-)

Mookie Wilson wrote:

When I was in college I wrote a paper for a history course on the reaction of the American left to Stalinism. One of the more interesting aspects of the research was reading old issues of the New Republic and the Nation. They frequently carried full page paid political messages from "artists and writers" (Lillian Hellman, for example) defending Stalin's show trials and talking about what a fabulous place the Soviet Union was. These on-line idiots are the heirs to the idiots of the 30's.

The puzzle of why brilliant people (and I'm talking G.B. Shaw and Sartre here, not Starfish)are often so stupid politically has interested me for a while. My theory is that artistic types have long despised the middle class (despite the fact that the overwelming majority of them are born into the middle class). This disdain for the boring old sods who become bankers and lawyers and businessmen, along with the tendency to romanticize either the aristocracy or the lower classes predates communism, but with the rise of communism, those old feelings of dislike and contempt became politicized.

I think that's one reason why the left has never come to grips with the horrors of communism or wanted to admit that capitalism, with all its faults, offers more freedom and opportunity to ordinary people than any other system. Admitting that would mean changing one's attitude toward the dull, plodding middle classes and that's too strongly engrained in Western culture for intellectuals to easily give up.

I also think that also explains the hold anti- Americanism and anti-Semitism have on the left. America is primarily a middle class country; it is easier to move from a blue-collar background into the middle class here than it is anywhere else in the world. And the Jewish values of education and hard work enable Jews to do quite well in a middle class society. Artists and writers would rather romanticize the "oppressed" than celebrate the real, albeit mundane, achievements of someone who gets up and goes to the office every day. (And it must be said, who wants to read novels about the life of a CPA?) Alienation from the middle class can result in great art, but it clearly doesn't result in great political thinking.

#32, Good points, but I think a healthy dose of guilt is involved when it comes to artists, actors and such who become very, very rich, very quickly.

I LOVE this petition. It's a total riot. If you haven't taken a look at it lately, it's being overrun with sarcastic and obscene signatures.

Of course the whole thing is only fit for wiping your ass with. I'm printing it out now, in fact, as I'm out of toilet paper and need to make a pit stop.

Cheers!

Donna V: Money. An artist in a capitalist society is young and broke until he makes it. He's usually starving until then, so the poor are who he identifies with, especially during the 20-something Marxist phase. He'll be rubbing elbows with the aristocracy soon enough once his genius is appreciated and they, in their wisdom, shell out the patronage to elevate him to his rightful perch.

In between, the middle-class are to be despised. They are the ones that aren't buying the paintings or throwing enough change into the guitar case. "Damn them for their failure to appreciate my brilliance due to their own small-mindedness."

Of course we never hear much about the ones that don't "make it". The ones that do are now rich and surrounded by enough sycophants to preclude the possibility of self-criticism.

Ah, but only if there were a way everyone could make an equitable living doing what they wanted. The cretins would still work in the factory or sell insurance because that's all their empty and uncaring souls could ever dream of doing. Thus the country still runs. And the artist wouldn't be missing meals and smoking discarded cigarette butts, he'd be able to devote all his energy to becoming the best mime there ever was without the stain of commercialism! (end sarcasm)

That's perhaps why artists lean commie and left yet fail to realize capitalism offers the best to both artist and consumer.

Oops! It seems that we can't read the petition's signatures anymore! You see, apparently they don't want the evil SirCam virus to attack the signatories' E-mails. So they've removed all the signatures, and all the comments. All we can see now is how many have signed. Of course.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with the influx of prank signatures to the petition. Nothing at all.

33:

I think you're right when it comes to Hollywood and rock stars, but I don't think it applies to the dimbulbs who signed this petition. Outside of Moorcock, I don't see any famous names. And, while Moorcock probably gets some handsome royalty checks, I doubt that very, very rich people are signing this petition. I think there's just an unquestioned allegiance to the left here. "I'm an artist, so I must be 'progressive.'" Not terribly original thinking.

How do you debate with people who are ready to belive things that are very clearly absurd ? How can anyone be against a war on terrorism ? How can anyone think that the rule of law can exist with out the threat of force to back it up ? WHERE DO THESE PEOPLE COME FROM

#36 Jeff B: The petition sigs can be read, the site's just poorly designed. Click on one of the number links. Like maybe 177 :)

Ha! I just read the petition - including the, ahem, later entries. Damn, that's funny!

I had the misfortune to attend a fine arts faculty at a University I will not name, up here in Canada. I was surrounded by posers like this in my classes for 5 years! Thus, the artistic shtick on the petition was a real flashback for me. It was all there: the banal pseudo-erudition, the overwrought idiotarian lunacy disguised as egalitarian humanism. Ah yes, what a shudder-inducing walk down memory lane...

And then, thanks to LGF, the real world showed up and planted landmines in the petition. I think I will sleep well tonight.

Well, I am shocked, SHOCKED at the way that petition has gone to hell in a handbasket. Who on earth could be responsible? ;-)

I signed mine as Neville Chamberlin with his quote "If I felt my responsibility heavy before, to read such letters has made it seem almost overwhelming. How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war. " Sadly I suspect the irony will be lost on them.

"They should be dealt with by the rule of law, and not by the use of military force."

It seems to me that the rule of law often calls for force as a mean of enforcement. Otherwise, why would cops wear guns?

And so, how do these people convince themselves that phrases like this -- which pretend to a higher moral order, but are actually vague and meaningless -- can be presented as a viable solution or alternative? I mean, do they think they can just send Cagney and Lacey over to Baghdad to slap the cuffs on Saddam and bring him in for questioning? It seems to me that you enforce the rule of law with the threat of force. And the threat of force must be backed up by the sure knowledge that it is real. Which, in turn, means that you sometimes have to grit your teeth and actually do the nasty work. And on the international scene, that means using the military.

Is all this too freakin' obvious, or am I missing something here?

You people are wicked.

I like that

These "artists" and their opinions are dust motes being swept into the bin of history. They haven't yet understood that they are on the other side of a flex point in time...

No matter. New voices are rising, new ideas are forming. The "moonglows" of this world are old, wrinkled, dying. And they hate it when it's pointed out.

Forward Western civilization!

Some petition signer writes: I think terrorism must be stopped, but not by unilateral action, and it should not be used as an excuse for the U.S. or any other state to invade another for the purpose of "regime change." Otherwise international law is meaningless.

As far as I can tell international law is meaningless -- particularly when only one party in a conflict (i.e. us or Israel) is supposed to abide by it. Why is the United States bound by so-called international laws that its enemies violate? Since when is the rule of law a death sentence?

How do you stand against all war? According to some people there is nothing worse than war.

But ask them why we need a police force and they say that some people are evil. But countries are different of course.

The other side of this is that they feel so terribly that nobody must die due to a war, whether civilian or military. So is the attitude rooted in a reverence for all life or just a reverence for their own life? Do they just not want to have a death 'traceable' directly to them, but are content to endure innumerable terrorist acts or totalitarian forced starvation, torture, etc because it's not 'their fault'?

I seriously want to know why people I love feel this way.

Reading the comments, I haven't laughed so much in days.

You guys are wicked.

In the spirit of fun a friend has added his own wickedness.

I signed. #206

One of the signatories:

Ann Louise Mitcalfe, Aotearoa

"Aotearoa", by the way, is the Maori name for NZ. The Pee-Cee Leftist crowd here, when refering to the country they live in, like to say that they're from "Aotearoa-New Zealand". At Auckland University, as well as finding bilingual "No Blood For Oil"/"Justice for The Palestinian People" posters at every corner, you can also take a paper entitled "Film in Aotearoa-New Zealand".

Why am I not surprised to see so many Kiwi signatures on this list?

I have tears running down my face from laughing at the comments.

M. Simon, what # is your comment?

I loved this one:

I'm surprised someone hasn't written "War is bad for Children and Other Living Creatures."

Yes dear, we know.

I'm Shaykh Usama by the way.

I never *got* the point of these petition thingamabobs.

As a Vietnam Veteran, and a member of Jews for Global Justice there is only one war worth fighting for and that is the war against poverty, ignorance and disease.

Isn't that 3 wars, dipshit?

James, Greg and G. Bob, excellent work.
I signed as Che Guevara, #207.

call upon both the US government and the "anti-terrorist" coalition to end this war

This strikes me: they don't call on al Qaeda (and others of the "death to America" persuasion) as well to end the war. On the one hand, this doesn't surprise me; I know from the wording of the petition that they're not anti-war, simply anti-American.

On the other hand, you'd think any bumblehead would see the problem in calling on one side to "end this war" without simultaneously issuing the same call to the people who - ahem - STARTED THE WAR. Yes? Even given my speculation about their real goals with this document, you'd think they'd cover this with some sort of rhetorical fig leaf. I truly do not understand this sort of thing.

Some choice comments:

As a poet, my inspiration comes from those things in life that reflect love, peace, joy, and beauty. I find little to inspire me in a country run by liars, cheaters, bullies, thieves, terrorists, bigots, and murderers. True peace can not be achieved through hurting and killing others. Only love, forgiveness, and unity for all of mankind can bring about an end to war, hatred, and violence.

this especially:

Americans are full of grief and horror at the death of innocent victims in the World Trade towers. We should be even more horrified and sad for innocent victims that WE kill.

but seriously, here're some goodies:

Seymour Butts: You libs need to open your crusted eyes and fight the enemy in our midst. But I guess you won't until one of your own is murdered.

Elmer Fudd: Be vewy vewy qwuiet. Im hunting terworists...

Neville Chamberlain: I support this petition. It will bring peace in our time

Saddam Hussein Jr.: We don't want war. We want surrender. O Saddam rule us too.

Che Guevara: Yes, I'm still dead but I'm very glad to see my admirers keeping up the good work, Osama is here and we're looking forward to seeing Mumia soon. Now, you dope-smoking ingrates, where's my royalty on all those goddamn posters?

Ezra Pound: I am so damn happy that these young whippersnappers are following in my footsteps and appeasing dictators! You make old Ezra proud! And don't mind the criticism - it's just the J-E-W-S. My idol Hitler knew what to do about them and so does your friend Sadaam.

George W. Bush: Holy fucking shit! A handful of artsy-fartsy loony tunes are against the war! Well, goddammit, this forces me to scrap the whole fucking war plan then! I don't dare piss off a bunch of pacifist pussies! Just think of the consequences! Why, they might start sending negative vibes my way!

Mother Teresa: I shaved my pussy for THIS? Jesus!

William Shakespeare: Artists & writers? You mean morons.

And my faves:

Marcus Wilson: West Side! I notice all the great artists and poets from Iraq have a petition of their own online that is a protest against the Hussein government and its treatment...oh wait. They couldn't do that! He's have them, and their families shot! Dumbasses.

No Faulkners or Rembrandts here lalaland: In reading the "serious" comments left by dolts who really believe that the U.S. government is going to pay attention to a whiny pack of lefties, I'm absolutely amazed at how mundane, cliche-ridden, and insipid they are. And you boneheads call yourself "creative?" I'm surprised someone hasn't written "War is bad for Children and Other Living Creatures." Sorry, I'm not terribly impressed with your writing skills, dunderheads. No wonder I've never heard of any of you.

Golden.

Oh, and to those LGFers who left comments (some of which are listed above, I'm sure), good on ya mates!

Evan (#56)

I thought the one by No Faulkners... was absolutely classic.

What about this one:

153. Amiri Baraka Who blow up da owl?

LOL!

No, no, the one attributed to George W. Bush is the funniest, especially as when I read it, I couldn't help but hear it in his voice in some kind of SNL-like parody.

If Bush ever snaps in private and lashes out against them, I hope he says that. It's profane, accurate, and hilarious.

I'm sorry. One more.

147. Josef Stalin

Soviet Union

1 Kremlin Plaza, Bridal Suite

I once said--when I was still alive--"A single death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic." Looks like some of our "artistic" friends would like the Islamofascists to make a statistic out of DC or New York. I always think of Saddam Hussein as the son I always wanted; ruthless, cruel, megalomanic. A chip off the old block.

The part that has me in hysterics is, "I once said--when I was still alive..." (and the Bridal Suite)

I'm bookmarking that page - who knows, maybe Ani DiFranco will put her name down, after writing this monsterpiece: [Link: www.whoneedsoxygen.net...]

Is it me, or are there a disproportionate amount of Oregonians on this baby?

zulubaby,

I'm #204. A Friend.

A little bit too acidic my son said. I guess I'm having a bad night.

I just hate the pomo racists who care for nothing but their own skins. And do it in the guise of love for humanity.

M. Simon

Great!

Too acidic for your son perhaps? :-)

#184: Saloth Sar aka Pol Pot

What a bunch of power-worshipping pussies! I bet you all have George Bush posters over your beds.

If you want to participate in GWII: The Revenge turn off FoxNews and get your white, lardasses to the recruiter's office. I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

Furthermore, who cares if some half-ass sci-fi writers sign a petition? Moorcock sucks. Way to distract yourselves from defending the faith.

Sure, most liberals are fuzzy-headed and that's contemptible, but at least they're not cheerleaders for Satan himself. Seriously, you guys are worthless eunuchs...worse than liberals, who may actually mean well.

It often seems that people whose work in life is making up fantasies think they have a superior understanding of reality.

Perhaps it is because they are used to making the decision -- the outcome of the story, the end of the novel, the last scene of the play
where to put the blob on the canvas.

They think they can run the world the same way.

By the way, is there now any qualification on who can be called an artist? The job no longer seems to require ability, talent, training, practice, skill -- just any scrap of slop will do to make one an "artist" will all the assumed moral pretentions that go with the undeserved title.

Most novelists resigned any moral authority when they signed up to ye olde post modernism. I sympathize with you, Charles: I just read an interview with my favourite novelist, Philip Roth, in the Independent, where he shows himself to be a complete arse regarding the September 11th attacks.

Last week, the Independent also ran a feature on novelists' attitudes to the Israel / Palestinian conflict. Many writers chose not to take sides: Most of those who did supported the Palestinians. Howard Jacobson, also a novelist, wrote a great response in Saturday's paper.

Roth Interview: [Link: news.independent.co.uk...]

Jacobson's response to the survey of novelists: [Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

Unfortunately the survey has disappeared from the Indie's site.

Jerald, #67
I am not white, I am not a lardass, and I am not someone who is obliged to recognize your authority, if indeed there is such a person. Now, politely go fuck yourself; that is all you can get, shithead.

Jerald, I checked out your 'email address' and i got this site [Link: www.letterneversent.com...]

Maybe you think the Mossad are responsible for the Bali bombings, or that the sniper terrorizing Maryland is a FEMA operative working from orders from the Trilateral Commission. Just put on that tin foil hat and everything will be ok.

My god! I'm ashamed to be called an artist. Please people these a##holes do not represent me or my ilk. The philosophy of a true artist is the interpretation of the culture and society that we inhabit, artist reflect not revolt. These no talent people that signed the petition should never, never be called "artist". Hell these are the same kind idiots who trashed the art world in the first place. Philosopy and ideology over talent my ass!

Same kind of idiots (sorry)

Jerald (#67)

What exactly do you stand for, you hypocrite? Just as well it's a smell you're fond of. And you've over-used it. It's not as clever as you think it is.

The bullshit on your site is overwhelming. A couple of things caught my eye.

For starters, this:

October 12, 2002
Some scary information the ADL (The Anti-Defamation League)

Fact Sheet on the ADL:

The Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (ADL) gave an award Nov. 18, 1998 to the city of Coeur d'Alene. City Fathers assume this is something to be proud of and have unthinkingly rolled out the red carpet for the ADL.

They think that an imprimatur from the ADL, a prominent Jewish group with a multi-million dollar budget and substantial media clout, is a kind of certification of our area's goodness. But in point of fact, hosting the ADL and its regional Seattle director at the Coeur d'Alene Resort is a shameful blot on the region.

The ADL is a branch of the masonic B'nai B'rith (Sons of the Covenant), which was established Oct. 13, 1843.

Up until recently, for decades the chief "fact-finder" (head spy) for the ADL was the late Irwin Suall. From 1957 through 1962, Mr. Suall was national secretary of the Socialist Party. (1)

The ADL keeps extensive espionage files on those who are critical of Israeli policies. Last year the ADL attempted to blackmail Benjamin Chavis, leader of the NAACP, with some of those files. (2)

The ADL spies on American dissidents on behalf of the Israeli government. Automobile license plate numbers of people attending a meeting of the Committee on the Middle East were recorded by ADL agent Roy Bullock, channeled through San Francisco police officer Tom Gerard, also an ADL operative, and furnished to the Israeli government. (3) ...

Related:

Anti-Defamation League They sure seem to practice their own brand of defamation on their site. Hypocrites.

ADL Watch

The ADL: Smear Mongers

Fascinating how the trolls always turn out to be rabid Anti-Semites.

And this:

Such is the poor state of our nation that we let a buffoon and criminal lead our people and the poor people of Iraq into a slaughter. If Bush wants to fight so bad he needs to get his blue-blooded ass on the next plane to Iraq. He and his ilk are nothing but duplicitous cowards and parasites. He should be cast off alongside Hussein. Bah humbug.

As should you. What have you done lately, with your parasitic ass?

Piss off.

Please do not feed the troll.

Well Jeee-raid, this is one "lard-ass" who did serve her country, after burying her young husband - killed by a young female VC. I served two years as a Navy nurse, on land, and twice in the line of fire. So fuck you and your presumtions, you sanctimonious ass.

I'm not alone here, either. Not only do we have many who have already served, but there are those who are serving now. There are also those of us who are too old to serve. And we have people from all over the world who post here. Not all of us are cynical, unthoughtful, ill-mannered, no-class brats.

If you ever grow up and decide to be serious, come visit again.

Dee Bates,

I've been wondering where you were.

Nice to see you :-)

I could put up with the stupid politics of these "creative" idiots if they actually were still creative. At least then they would have something to contribute to society. Unfortunately, the truly sad part of all this is that creativity is dead.

Just look at what passes for music, art, literature, theater, television and movies these days. Its almost exclusively crap.

Thanks, zulubaby. Sorry mommydoc. I know I shouldn't react. I'm usually good. But after reading that petition - that bromide attempting to pass itself off as "deep thoughts" - I suddenly felt the burden of the inane. I came to the comments for reason and respite, and found both. The heat abated somewhat.

Then I read Mr. Jeraid's contribution to civilization. I blew. I apologize to those I respect. In my defense I'll say that I've reached my limit. This stuff was old when I was a kid, it was old when my mother was a kid; indeed, Socrates was the first to address the phenomenon, historically. And yet, the modern sophists' don't seem to recognize themselves. There's ample precedent, examples readily available to anyone with a thinking mind...

Oh. Never mind.

Actually, I kinda hope the 'Lemmy Kilminister' sig is the real thing. I'd LOVE to have Lemmy on our side...

I signed (216) as John Cleese (Monty Python, anyone?) I did my Iraq version of the dead parrot skit:

"Saddam wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts in him! He's passed on, he is no more, he has ceased to be, he's expired and gone to meet his maker, he's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! This is an EX-DICTATOR!!"

W.

#78 HA,

My teenage sons all prefer the oldies channel to the crap the record companies are pushing. They find today's music almost universally depressing and without hope.

#79 Dee,

Give 'em hell.

Simon -Second Place, Vietnam War Games - Tonkin Bay Yacht Club '66

It's a lot more complicated than that, Meryl. The reason that Huck Finn still works, more than a hundred years later, is the truth therein, not the lies.

The real problem with fiction writers as political commentators, it seems to me, is that too many of them prefer a good narrative, whether it's true or not, to a complicated, icky truth. Certainly true for Moorcock, and Ellison.

For me, it was the final jettisoning of any faith I ever had in the ability of "creative" people to discern common sense or exercise sound political judgement.

Geez. I lost that the first time I saw "performance art".

Mommydoc (#75) please don’t feed the troll

Feeding trolls is OK if you wear your gloves. Besides you might just feed them something which would make them WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

Jerold (#67)
What a bunch of power-worshipping pussies! I bet you all have George Bush posters over your beds.
So your admitting GWB is powerful. And you lose your bet, I don’t have any posters at all in my house.
If you want to participate in GWII: The Revenge turn off FoxNews and get your white, lardasses to the recruiter's office. I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning. .
We are participating in the revenge. By having a realistic debate about what’s good and bad about it. Mostly we feel that the negative effect of regime change completely outweigh the oppression of an entire country by a brutal dictator.
If you check into it just a bit you’ll see we get our news from a wide variety of sources.
Not everyone here is white.
Also the armed forces have rather strict physical fitness requirements so “lardasses” will probably not be inducted.
For those in the military I’m assuming you’ll apologize. And check your facts, recruitments are up in our all-volunteer armed services.
Furthermore, who cares if some half-ass sci-fi writers sign a petition? Moorcock sucks. Way to distract yourselves from defending the faith. .
WTF?
Sure, most liberals are fuzzy-headed and that's contemptible, but at least they're not cheerleaders for Satan himself. Seriously, you guys are worthless eunuchs...worse than liberals, who may actually mean well. .
So your admitting the intelligentsia isn’t very intelligent.
I’ve been reading the posts here for some time and I don’t recall any cheerleading for Satan.
Seriously, you’re lucky you didn’t insult the woman here. I’d feel bad watching you be savaged by the girls.
You claim that liberals “may actually mean well” which suggests that they may not actually mean well. Like you?
Interject something of substance to the debate (if you can) name calling is for the playground.

I think John Stuart Mill knew these idiots well...

A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
John Stuart Mill

Please don't for a minute imagine that these people are artists, or representative of artists. These are not artists, they are the type of people who jump when they hear the word "artist" and say "Oooh, that's me!!! Yes?"

My definition of artist includes, pretty high up on the list, the ability to think.

One of my favorites entries (paraphrased):

"I'm an engineer. But I also write Sci-Fi part of the time. So therefore I need to sign this petition."

(Then afterwards I must pull that lever and get one of the yummy pellets...)

(Bit late on this one)

Donna V. (#6) - as part of an existing mutual admiration society, I sure recognize one when I see one. You know this only too well.

I'm an artist and I think what we have here is simply the usual "holier (and more sensitive) than thou" approach that many artists have. It's all bloody nonsense. Most of the artists I've dealt with are just as confused as the rest of us mere mortals.

Heavens, even celebrities - artists of a different kind (the highly monied kind) - are susceptible to feelings of doubt and insecurity - and insanity.

This sort of reminds me of a Calvin & Hobbes cartoon - Calvin has, in his mind, become an 'avante garde' artist and Hobbes is commenting on how crappy his paintings are. The exchange was something like this:

Calvin: This is avant garde stuff, I don't expect these lowbrows to understand my genius. They're all morons and are beneath me

Hobbes: But you'll take their money?

Calvin: What, do you want me to starve?

W.

Re: #59

zulubaby, I confess.

Actually, I kinda hope the 'Lemmy Kilminister' sig is the real thing. I'd LOVE to have Lemmy on our side...

Lemmy is one militaristic bastard. I think he'd support a war on America just like he'd support a war on Iraq just to see the blood. The guy's a bit... crazy.

I was surprised to see there were no actors.

Well, I just signed as Alec Baldwin and as Susan Sarandon.

I have to admit "Claude Bawls" the wildlife adventure writer (# 201) made me laugh. I am so ashamed. I must have been absent from 5th grade the day someone came up with that one!

Just out of curiosity, I went to the home page of petitiononline.com. Ladies and gentlemen, I have found the MOTHER LODE of online goofiness! Have a look at the list of all the petitions at their site. It's a huge file, but it's an absolute HOOT!

Oh, and it looks like it really is Moorcock:

12:00pm ET, 15-October-02

SF&F Writers Oppose War

Science fiction and fantasy writers are among more than 100 artists who have signed an online petition opposing military action in Iraq. Signatories include SCI FICTION editor Ellen Datlow and writers Karen Joy Fowler, Lisa Goldstein, John Kessel, Kelly Link and Michael Moorcock, the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America Web site reported.

"Science fiction writers have a special interest in the future, and the U.S. policy on Iraq is putting our future at risk," said Douglas Lain, the Portland, Ore., man who co-wrote the petition with New Zealand author Tim Jones, the SFWA site reported. "It's no wonder that so many fine writers in the genre are coming out in opposition to Bush and his war."

from:
[Link: www.scifi.com...]

That Jerald guy is obviously mental. He probably believes Nader won the election and that the CIA stole the election for Bush.

Lardasses? White? He's probably overweight and caucasian himself. I'm willing to bet the readers here are more diverse then those Che Guevara shirt wearing trust fund babies.

Afraid of the ADL and their database? The ADL database has been instrumental in collecting information on terrorists, anti-Semites, and enemies of the state. Someone needs to do this, the FBI is certainly not going to. After we take out Hussein and Al Quaeda we can start with the protestors. It ticks me off that anti-Semites try to hide behind opposition to the state of Israel.

Re #86 J. Acitelli

Thanks for the John Stuart Mill quotes.

Moorcock's science fiction is mind-numbing garbage anyway. He is a wart compared to the likes of Heinlein, Poul Anderson, Venor Vinge, Peter Hamilton, Ken MacLeod, L. Neil Smith and David Brin. Heinlein especially. He knew what defending freedom required.

Love the site.
Tom, London

re: 98

I don't know, I enjoyed the Stormbringer series (the stories of Elric).

W.

Email address for the author of the online petition (this thread):

doug@douglaslain.f2s.com

Yes, he's the guy calling for Iraq to allow inspectors as long as they don't do anything for US interests. I suppose the UN wants something else, like mustache grooming secrets.

The Left just loves to believe the lies of dictators.

I hate these "look at me, I am wonderful" artists.

I recall a technical seminar I attended in '98 that had Peter Y of Peter, Paul and Mary perform as a little "bonus". After listening to this moron vomit his beliefs on the group I was ready to leave until I heard him mention how he had recently played in a hospital to a woman afflicted with cancer. His great epiphany was that the strumming of his guitar and the look in this woman's eyes had allowed him to experience her pain and understand her situation.

Are these people insane??? It is all about their f-ing feelings. The ill woman was nothing more than a tool for his feelings and he did not bother to mention whether this woman received any benefit from his performance.

That was the last straw. I have lost my grandfather, grandmother and an aunt, who I carried in my arms to her bed the night she died, to stomach/colon cancer. I wanted to run up on that stage and strangle that pretentious ass. He does NOT know what it is like to be afflicted with a disease that will cause a painful end to his life because he can strum three chords on a guitar.

These "artists" are such self-consumed idiots who believe every new thought in their vacuous head is unique and profound. Clearly the vast number of these “thoughts” are no more profound than the thought my dog has every time he discovers he can lick his testicles.

I have been angry at that jerk and those like him for years, thanks for the forum.

Take Louis de Bernières' observation that "Israel has been adopting tactics which are reminiscent of the Nazis".

There goes "Captain Corelli's" off my to-read list...

Re #99: You will never read Elric the same if you see the parody in Cerebus the Aardvard, issue #6 (and occasional appearances thereafter). Read it outloud with a Foghorn Leghorn accent...

Just checked, it's actually issue #4. The character is Elrod the Albino.

Re: #101 "It is all about their f-ing feelings. The ill woman was nothing more than a tool for his feelings and he did not bother to mention whether this woman received any benefit from his performance. "

You summed it up precisely. I found this article that deals with that very thing (in addition to a host of other subjects). It's a long read,but very interesting:

[Link: www.policyreview.org...]

Q (#90)

Do you know that I was still laughing about it this morning!

Man, that is funny.

Check out 230:

Alec Baldwin: "If the U.S.A. goes to war with Iraq, I'm moving to France. And this time I really mean it."

hehe

W.

LibraryGryffon #99:

Cerebus the Aardvark - now there's a blast from the past! Apricot brandy, anyone?

I read Moorcock's stuff when I was in high school, and quite liked it. I tried to re-read the Elric stories last year, and (except for the very first short stories) thought they were a load of crap.

(I was Baldwin! Thanks!)

Michael Moorcock has a website (sort of ), [Link: www.multiverse.org,...] I think. He actually has (or had) something of a blog, in which fans would ask him things, and he would reply.

Anyway, yes, he's pretty much a leftist/marxist/Gnome Chompsky type. Why, I dunno. Most of his novels seem to go against that whole thing.

And despite his rampant anti-Americanism, he lives in Texas.

I don't mind people having differing viewpoints, but hypocrites really bug me. You can't really enjoy the American lifestyle (and European one, either) yet criticize America. Right or wrong, America is largely the driving force why you can live like that.

"As a poet, my inspiration comes from those things in life that reflect love, peace, joy, and beauty. I find little to inspire me in a country run by liars, cheaters, bullies, thieves, terrorists, bigots, and murderers. True peace can not be achieved through hurting and killing others. Only love, forgiveness, and unity for all of mankind can bring about an end to war, hatred, and violence"
Dawn Goldeneagle

It is to laugh that a lot of seemingly intelligent and sensitive people cannot see
the forest through the tree's
HG

#32
There was a great python skit with chapman playing a writer and idle coming in, as his only son who was a coal miner,
He is enraged at that and his son is mad at dad for making her attend "gala lunchoens"
very on spot !!
HG

I used to live in Austin and retain a great deal of fondness for the place, but it IS an idiotarian haven. I think it has more therapists per capita than anywhere else in the US, and was well-known in the 70s for fusing hippie with redneck culture (think Willie Nelson and ZZ Top).

Any town where Eeyore's birthday is a major holiday, a homeless transvestite can run for mayor, you can swim in a huge natural spring-fed pool for 9 months of the year, and Michael Dell (Dell Computer) funds a children's museum and the building of the Jewish Community Center is okay with me. You just have to put up with the crystal-gazing tribal drumming cozmic cowboy elements.

Koedo, #9:

"Starfish" is sometimes used as slang for the anus. Very appropriate nickname, IMHO.

My signature is #256. Go take a look; I'm not spoiling it for you (and I need to get back to work in a few minutes anyway).

I took a look at the Ani DiFranco "poem," and I can't say I'm surprised. Anus DiStanko is a white chick with nasty dreadlocks, calculatedly shredded clothes, and more metal stuck into in her face than can be mined out of the average meteorite. Her guitar playing is that in name only; it's so bad that it's actually painful to listen to, even considering that she's a folkie. (Her obsessively devoted fans who praise her "power strumming" obviously have no clue about what constitutes musical ability.)

I'm glad I grew out of the folk-music listening phase, for reasons both artistic and political. A few years ago, one local musician who is actually very good at what he does wrote a letter to the Boston Globe protesting cuts in social services. Really wasn't much more than the stereotypical "conservatives are evil, selfish Rich People" boilerplate, but of course the Globe leapt to print it. Asshats.

"As artists we have a moral responsibility to...
fight deceit and distortion...blah blah"

Oh please!

I have never met a writer who didn't ping pong
from brilliance to depression, a poet who wasn't on the verge of a breakdown or a painter who didn't do illegal narcotics WAY too much to be healthy for his work.

This shows you that the left is so full of themselves that they have made the creative impulse as natural as air or soil--it's not.

Creative people are the most emotional, stubborn, unpredictable and unreliable people on this planet and if that made them "in-tune" to being better protestors against "deceit"--I fail to see how that is.

Simply saying you're an artist or poet doesn't make you one unless you think you are the most brilliant mind that's ever lived, and as most people who've met great poets know, self-esteem isn't exactly a creative person's strongest point.

Most truly gifted writers ARE in fact deceitful in their real lives. They ARE in fact profession distortionists. Faust was not about honesty. Shakespeare had his dark lady.

Who are those artists that are now deceit-virgins?

I thought a good round of self-betrayal WAS pretty much what real "artists" were good at?!

It never ceases to amaze me how cookie-cutter bland the left makes things.

Next they will be telling us that by reading about Rome we can all become more Roman.

Give me a break. I don't put my opinions out to make a cause or get on the news. I try to just vent my emotions and hope that I can find one or two people who feel the same way about a certain subject.

I even think it's never to late too late to LEARN or be INSPIRED by another's point of view. Imagine that ! Listening to other souls to see if they see the same color in the same way!

People like the above bug me. Good lord! When in god's name will the baby boomers die off and stop frenching their mirrors??

When???!!!

I took a look at the Ani DiFranco "poem," and I can't say I'm surprised. Anus DiStanko is a white chick with nasty dreadlocks, calculatedly shredded clothes, and more metal stuck into in her face than can be mined out of the average meteorite.

Not to mention unshaven armpits! Eyeww...

As for folk music - I still have a softish spot for Billy Bragg - I adoe his love songs, though his polemicy socialist hymns are, well...

"We should encourage as much as possible this sort of thing from those so inclined."

If they got away with their support for murderous and dictatorial communism, they can get away with anything. Sad, but true. I have little hope for these people.

All the interesting comments and posters have been taken down from the site.

The real artists were those who disagreed. The rest are all poseurs.

I agree with hanna-banana.

Artists may be better to call people on deceit, but not because they write or whatever.

Artists may be better to call on people's lapses in telling the full truth, because that is what artists do for a living; they run a truck through the omissions.

No one tells the full truth, but when it comes to Iraq no real artist would go to bat for Saddam on "moral" merits unless they had admiration for him being the dictator most able to tell the most truth-omissions to the UN in the history of the UN.

Artist=moral is like hearing...
Politician=honest

Some things don't hit the mind of common sense with that much blunt force trauma.

That article, coming from "artists" was stupidly worded.

All the interesting comments and posters have been taken down from the site.

Then it's a good thing we've saved some of them on this blog. ;)