I can safely say that a hole in Patten's head would not matter as there is nothing between his ears to damage.

and we're surprised...why?

Golly, I'm tempted to say something about how I feel about the idea of Chris Patten with a hole in the head.

Not gonna though. That would be wrong.

Seems to me that if there was a hole in my head, I want it investigated pronto!

The reason Chris Patten doesn't want to investigate is because he's afraid to come face-to-face with the voice of truth within himself. The voice that cries out with every tragedy and asks "Why aren't you helping these people? They are God's chosen, and you refuse them aid. Who curses the Jews will be cursed."

Perhaps he doesn't want this investigated because it would damage him personally. There might be kickbacks involved.

sad thing is that more than 600 civilians did get a hole in their head because of this "European Aid"

disgusting

why won't patten investigate?

because he has no problem with the EU's policy of murder by proxy? because there finally is someone willing to undertake the unfinished, dirty task of killing jews and if the EU's money can make it happen faster all the better?

There's a reason Mark Steyn calls him Chris Petain.

Now if Patten had the good fortune to be living here in the states, he could just claim his 5th Amendment rights & be done with it. Steve Den Beste has an interesting point on how Patten may be in need of such protection now. Not that they'd really consider funding jew-killers to be a hate crime...

As I've posted here before, Patten is almost single-handedly responsible for keeping Arafat and the PA rolling in blood money. As EU foreign affairs commissioner, Patten holds the pursestrings to Europe's terrorist dole; if he were forced out under political pressure, it could invite new scrutiny into PA funding. This might be key to saving Israeli lives.

I've been considering putting together a protest group to bring more attention to Patten's duplicity. If other UK or European LGF'ers are interested in participating in this effort, please e-mail me above.

I doubt Patten is behaving this way because he actively wants to see innocent Jews killed and wants to help fund that. He's simply a horribly intransigent bureaucrat and feels it's politically necessary to be on the side of Palestinians, being the abject moral coward that he, and the rest of the EU ruling elite are.

Underestimating your enemy is dangerous, but so is overestimating him. The man is more of a pathetic toady than anything else.

Report on Corruption in the Palestinian Authority.

Quote: "Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority has "systemically and systematically used corruption and crime, and diverted funds donated for the development of the Palestinian state, to fund terrorism and to enrich its leadership."

[Link: www.public-integrity.org...]

...they knew about Aushewitz and Treblinka...

and they looked away...

...they know about Hamas, Hzbulla and Fatah...

and they look away...

what can we do...?

Actually, I thought that this parapraph was quite positive:

He said he and colleagues in the European Parliament have launched a bipartisan bid to obtain the 157 signatures needed to set up an inquiry "to investigate allegations that EU funds are being illegally diverted to fund terrorist activity against Israeli civilians."

Maybe they'll succeed and finally find out (surprise, surprise) that some of their money is funding terrorism. Not that they'll do anything about it anyway as long as the paleostinians are only killing Jews.

Henry (#10) excellent! I was just about to propose the same. I'd be delighted to find ways to stop EU funding of terrorism.

As this evil piece of garbage Patten continues his record of fighting for his right to fund the murder of Jews, it is worth revisiting some excellent articles and commentary brought to us by Stefan Sharkansky.

Stefan translated an excellent article by the German publication Die Zeit titled Arafat Bombs, Europe Pays which goes in depth to expose the extent to which Europe is once again complicit in the final solution to the Jewish question.

This article exposes the PA's misues of Europes blood money for such commonly known ill uses like PA hate propoganda, hate-filled textbooks and illegal weapons importation.

Regarding the Karine A affair:

EU Commissioner Chris Patten praises Europe's especially "strict mechanisms for ex-ante and ex-post controls". Every month, he says, funds are transferred only if the proper use of the aid in the previous month has been verified. The budget must be made fully transparent to the EU. Auxiliary budgets are not allowed. It is highly astonishing, therefore, how Arafat could so effortlessly drive an entire weapons ship past the budget.

If one believes the EU, there is an actual control process for the aid payments to Palestine: the International Monetary Fund (IMF). EU Commissioner Chris Patten writes that the IMF examines the payments with precision and sends a monthly "declaration of no objection". Karim Nashashibi performs this job for the IMF. He lives in Jerusalem. The man that monitors the Palestinians for Patten is himself a Palestinian. He comes from the same clan and carries the same last name as Arafat's long-time finance minister. He had even been destined for a political career under Arafat. Until Monday evening of this week the IMF man Nashashibi was going to become Arafat's new Finance Minister. Then the wind changed and Nashashibi's predecessor at the IMF is now first-in-line for the office. Arafat's financial advisor Fuad Shubaki, the man who bought the Karine-A, is proud to call IMF deputy Nashashibi "a friend".

Patten responded to this damning expose. Here is Stefan's commentary on Patten's disengenuous response, along with a link to Patten's statement re the same.

Die Zeit did a follow up piece, translated by Stefan.

I urge everyone to take the time to read these, or to re-read these important window's into the true aims of the EU. The next time the EU takes a role in the "peace process" remember where their stakes lie.

If your recall in June of this year, the EU Budget Committee actually froze transfers to the PA. Patten blocked the committee decision stating something to the effect that the EU would lose all moral standing if it stopped giving money to the PA.

These articles are repleat with gems from Patten and we continue to see what Patten considers to be moral.

#15 - Ploome

Answer: Put a hole in his head. (Oops!! Does that qualify as a hate statement? Patten said it first.)

I have a serious question:

Does the eurpean taxpayer think that money grows on trees?

I do not expect them to care for the lives of people.
I do not expect them to condemn terrorism and violence.
I do not expect them to stand by their allies in the war.

I do expect them to care for their own money.
They've worked hard for it, have'nt they?

What is it that renders them so blind?
It can't be pro-palestinian sentiments as they're completely indifferent to human suffering. They could'nt care less when the Balkans, their own back yard, was on fire and needed the US to intervene.

Is it perhaps the "thrill" in doing the exact opposite of what america says?

No matter how hard I try I can't see any logic there.

d #12: Thanks for the great link.

1. Israel needs to form a coherent case from the financial records seized from the PLA showing diversion of EU funds to unauthorized weapons, terror groups. That case needs to be publicly and embarassing presented to the free media. After Iraq.

2. Chris Patten and the other EU bureaucrats see the Settlements as colonialism, the Pals as nasty partisans. No love of suicide bombers in Europe, but no love of colonialism either. Also, we made an important distinction - we declared a war on terror - but said it was "international" terror to prevent folks like Mandela, Menachim Begin, Kenyatta, Shamir, Arafat engaging in local liberation struggles from being lumped in with Al Qaeda, and diffusing the war hopelessly, by defining 1/2 the world's governments as "terror founded or linked".

3. After Iraq, the US, UK, and Russia need to push the EU further to control funds use. Right now, first things first - Iraq. Even with the UK though, America's "moral persuasion" is limited - we are known as the country that provides the funds that supports the Settlements, the main source of IRA terror funds...so we are not ideally positioned to lecture the UK on where their money goes. The Russians, of course want to shut down any Chechen support from the ME, and there are rumors that Arafat might have a little training...but Hezbollah is the real area of Russian scrutiny.

4. The US provides significant financial aid to the Pals. Not anything remotely close to what US taxpayer dollars do for Israel - but we are the largest single source. It would obviously help to do a policy re-examination of how our billions are put to use - not just by the Pals, but by Israel, Egypt, as well. Have all those billions made the ME better or worse? Do we need additional restrictions or "strings attached"? Or, would our taxpayer dollars have been put to better use fighting the global AIDS pandemic or providing prescription drug coverage at home? I think Egypt, the Pals, and Israel would all unite finally on one issue - all would oppose a US re-examination of dollars given if all 3 entities were exposed under a microscope.

Amy, I originally found that link over at the Shark Blog (which J Lichtry mentions in post 16). I highly recommend it!

What was it Steven Plaut said about the "stupid left" vs the "satanic left"?

One quote from it:

The Stupid Left wants a Palestinian state because it thinks that such a state will pursue peace alongside Israel. The Satanic Left wants a
Palestinian state precisely because it knows such a state will launch a war of destruction against Israel and endless atrocities against the Jews.

What was it Steven Plaut said about the "stupid left" vs the "satanic left" (one of yesterday's threads)?

One quote from it:

The Stupid Left wants a Palestinian state because it thinks that such a state will pursue peace alongside Israel. The Satanic Left wants a
Palestinian state precisely because it knows such a state will launch a war of destruction against Israel and endless atrocities against the Jews.

Hmmm. What do we see happening in the EU (other places, as well, but let's focus on the EU) today? Almost reflexive disagreement with and disdainment of the United States. This is so bad and so knee-jerk that I honestly believe GW could call for an international drive to immunize all children against childhood diseases, and the EUniks would trip over themselves getting to microphones to denounce the US for "paternalism" and "colonialism" and "imperialism" and blah, blah, blah. The way the US media deals with and reports this knee-jerk anti-Americanism reminds me of that classic scene by Steve Martin in "The Jerk," where he's working in a gas station, and the guy tries to shoot him, misses and hits a rack of oil cans. Steve Martin starts yelling, "It's the cans!! He hates these cans!!" Only a damnfool, or the NY Times (is that a redundancy?) could mistake the EU's reaction to our efforts to get a UN resolution against Iraq as anything but simple anti-Americansim.

Likewise, there is an instant, reflexive and virulent hatred of anything done by Israel. 20+ Israeli civilians get blown to bloody shards, and no one says squat. The IDF wastes a couple of known terrorists, and it is illegal, immoral, unjustified, etc., etc.

Please don't fisk me for asking this (in other contexts, almost obscene) question: Why do they hate us?

I am forced to conclude, for complete failure to find another plausible theory, that they hate us for two reasons.

One: They hate our success, our power, our strength. Israel, that "shitty little country," could, realistically, kick the pluperfect shit out of the military forces of pretty much any EU member. The US could perform the same job on the whole bunch of them together, without breaking a sweat. Israel is having its hard times, for obvious reasons, but the US economy, despite 9/11 and despite a global slowdown, if not outright recession, just keeps clockin' along - and our economic lead over the EU continues to grow, not shrink. They see themselves fading into irrelevance, and GW's willingness to push them in that direction even faster renders them virtually rabid.

Two: Our moral clarity is an affront to their "sophistication." There are no "rights" or "wrongs," there are only the powerful and the (relatively) powerless. They (and the American left) have twisted the old chestnut about "might makes right" 180 degrees - might makes wrong. No matter WHAT our cause, we are wrong, BECAUSE we are strong. The Palestinians are RIGHT because (in the twisted world view of the EUniks) the are less powerful than the Israelis.

We should allow our national policy - not just foreign, mind you, but domestic policies including energy policy, environmental policy, criminal law (no death penalty) and others - to be dictated to us by the likes of the Netherlands, Belgium and even SUDAN, simply BECAUSE they are weaker than us.

Even a moderately even-handed Kyoto-like treaty would be like that famous old saying "The law, in its majesty, forbids both beggars and kings from sleeping under bridges." Kyoto would prevent Sudanese from driving SUV's? What are the chances the Sudanese are going to even have an ECONOMY (other than slave trade) anytime in the foreseeable future? Anyone who doesn't see that Kyoto is symptomatic, and is actually DESIGNED, at least in part, to reduce the power of the US, is not looking at things clearly.

I am forced to the sad conclusion that, while good manners dictate that we allow the EUniks to have their say, our self-interest requires that we ignore these babbling buffoons, and pursue our best interests despite their carping. We'll save the world in spite of them. Not that they'll thank us. Pathetic, ungrateful, small-minded aparatchiks - I fart in their general direction.

"In democracy everyone has the right to be represented, even the jerks." Chris Patten

He does a real good job at it.

This would allow islamofascists to silence Oriana Fallaci and anyone else who dares to criticize them.

Does anyone in Europe remember why Voltaire said Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai jusqu'au bout pour que vous puissiez le dire i.e. I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to death so that you can say it.

Another relevant quote from the Age of Reason, by Thomas Jefferson: I have sworn... eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

Not that modern-day European politicians are expected to know anything about that.

"You Americans tend to think we're just a bunch of limp-wristed wusses," : Chris Patten

Again, hes right. Thiy guy is brilliant.

#26 - that tyranny T.J. was fighting was European tyranny.

"President Bush has just raised defence spending by 14% - $48bn - while reducing money for health, education and social policy," he had said. "How many of you believe that you could comfortably run on such a platform in the next election? Can I see a show of hands?" Chris Patten, EU-nothing parl. June 2002

He's a clairvoyant too.

who is Chris Patten

[Link: europa.eu.int...]

Sorry wrt #26, meant to include this:

The Council of Europe has adopted a measure that would institute Internet censorship by criminalising so-called "hate speech," including hyperlinks to pages that contain offensive content.

To be more specific, the European Union bans any written material, any image or any other representation of ideas or theories, which advocates, promotes or incites hatred, discrimination or violence, against any individual or group of individuals, based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin, as well as religion if used as pretext for any of these factors.
[via Wired and a good analysis at USS Clueless]

Mean Mr. Mustard (#11): While I see your point, we Jews have learned from bitter experience never to assume that our enemies are not our enemies for purely anti-Semitic reasons.

That isn't overestimation. That is reality. It is, unfortunately, history.

Steve Peden (#24): Marry me.

The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.
— Alvin Toffler

more crap from Chris Patten

[Link: europa.eu.int...]

Differences between us over the best way to build peace should not obscure how much binds us together: first and foremost history. We will never forget the tragedy of the Holocaust. We recognise the immeasurable contribution of Jewish culture to our societies and we recognise Israel as a mature democracy in a region that boasts no others.

notice the flippant de rigeur mention of the Holocaust...as a 'tragedy'...like out of nowhere...

hes contemptuously insulting...

feh

And why not? The catholic church and its evangelical protestant catholic churches view themselves as the replacement for Jews.

[Link: www.hcef.org...]

[Link: www.hcef.org...]

[Link: www.hcef.org...]

Why should they - the union of Euroevangiles - support Jews in Israel? Their Euromoney is for divine purposes.

[Link: www.hcef.org...]

[Link: www.americancatholic.org...]

European support is for the Paleosteins, the true Jews. The catholic Jews of Rome's Jesus.

Only after you have properly learned to hate "pharisee Jews" as good catholic christians can you properly identify the true citizens of the Holy Land. Not even those right-wing christians are properly attuned. Why do you suspect the EU would be any different that their daddy the pope...

[Link: www.al-bushra.org...]

[Link: www.lpj.org...]

...and his brotherly toads, the Latin Patri-arsh and his brother?

The marching orders -- Onward Christian Soldiers.

BTW, I am a believer in Israel's Messiah, Y'shua, but I'm not a Jew, not a christian.

Differences between us over the best way to build peace should not obscure how much binds us together: first and foremost history. We will never forget the tragedy of the Holocaust. We recognise the immeasurable contribution of Jewish culture to our societies and we recognise Israel as a mature democracy in a region that boasts no others.

i cant let this go...

"how much binds us together: first and foremost history"

right...2000 years of humiliation and blood libels and expulsions and pogroms...

we can see the results of these historical bonds in how the EU treats Israel and the J E W S today...

makes me sick...

Slightly Off topic:

Steve Peden (#24), you are, of course, right. Check out The American Enterprise website

[Link: www.taemag.com...]

The article "Old and in the Way" has some shocking (to me, at least) statistics that really drive home the gulf opening up between the United States and Europe. The population statistics are pretty sad. This article is very similar to Robert Kagan's

Is it perhaps the "thrill" in doing the exact opposite of what america says?

I believe that #18 NOMAD 33 has got something here.

I've just about had it with the rest of the world's opinion of the USA.

Hey, it left out the rest of my comment! I was going to put in some money quotes from the TAE article, but you should just go ahead and read the article.

Meryl Yourish (#32) Thanks, much, darling, but I think my wife might object. If she leaves me, I'll e-mail you.

Brandi in AZ (#37) - thanks for your kind words, and the link. The more you study this stuff, the more obvious it seems. As I said, I have REALLY thought about this one, and there isn't another theory that doesn't do serious violence to the facts, and Occam's Razor. They are fading into dotage and irrelevance, it scares the pee out of them, and their reaction is to run headlong in that direction, pretending they are moving forward. Their psychopathology scares me, just because I see signs of it here, particularly in the Loonie Left.

Steve Hall...

how to get to Christianity while totally ignoring Judiasm...

[Link: www.al-bushra.org...]

The Origins of Middle EasternArab Christianity

The Christian church was born in Palestine at a time when the RomanEmpire was in its youth and when Palestine had been incorporated into atempire. Palestine was governed in the first century by a Roman procuratorwho in turn was countable to the legate of the Roman procurator provinceof Syria.

Jerusalem had the apostle James "the Minor” as first bishop, andwhile not much is kown about the life and career of the other apostles,Peter, after the Council Jerusalem (Acts: 10, 15; Gal: 2:11), apparentlywent to Antioch in order to confirm the nascent church there. Soon after,the Christian faith spread to Ephesus, Edessa (today's Urfa), Alexandria,and Rome.

It was natural, therefore, that the teaching and the worship of Christspread first in his homeland, i.e., in Palestine, and extended slowly tothe neighboring countries. The Acts of the Apostles gives us a vivid accountof the progress of the faith and its success Judaea, Samaria, and Galilee.This progress was slow, and the Gospel seems to have had more effect inthe hellenized, maritime cities than inland. The Acts of the Apostles informsus that the mission of the Apostle Philip took him to the pagan citiesalong the Mediterranean shore. He proclaimed Christ in Caesarea and Lydda,and it was near Gaza that he baptized a Jewish proselyte of Ethiopian originActs 8:27). Peter, we are also informed, followed Philip to these areas;first to Samaria, then to Caesarea, Gaza, and Lydda. Anyway, we see Christiansliving on the shore of Palestine at the end of the second entury.

This man is not only thoughtless and amoral, but totally pathtic:

From Opinion Telegraph, Britain

But I am not trying to argue that the EU is a totalitarian system. On the contrary, my point is that not even the Soviet Union, with all the resources of a police state at its disposal, was able to extirpate the older patriotisms of its peoples. How, then, can the EU, made up of 15 liberal democracies, hope to succeed with nothing more powerful in its arsenal than a common passport?

Mr Patten thinks he has the answer. "You can already feel the stirrings [of pro-European patriotism], perhaps, in the shared indignation at US steel protection," he writes. "You can feel it at the Ryder Cup, too." It is significant that the only two examples he can come up with are based on anti-Americanism. From his point of view, this may make tactical sense. Nations do indeed cohere when they perceive an external enemy. And there is a certain market for anti-Americanism even in this country. But I wonder whether long exile is beginning to distort Mr Patten's view of the British.

Unreal

# 24 - well said!

"12 - Mean Mr. mustard - don't forget an important lesson of the Holocaust. Watch Eichmann during his trial - he sure didn't look like a murderer. He didn't even have all of the pomposity of the top Nazis. What was so horrible was not that he was so evil - he was so ordinary. He simply saw himself as a bureauocrat with a job to do. The Reich had forbidden Jews to live in its territory and there was no place else to send them, so...

That this bureaucrat refuses to understand that his money finances the deaths of little children is of no consequence to him. They have spent time, effort and millions of dollars in building up this PA. They cannot admit that it was a colossal mistake, that the people are far worse off than they were 10 years ago and that the man they trusted has lied to them and robbed them blind under their noses. It would expose them for their own incompetence, so they would rather have "plasuble deniability."

It is also true that many are glad that the Palis can serve as their proxies and finally resolve this vexatious Jewish Problem. Things would just be so much better if the Jews stopped whining and died quietly again.

The Europeans do understand money (just ask the Swiss). The only hope is that there are enough people who will sign the petition and demand an accounting - not because of the Jewish blood that has been spilled but solely on the basis that the $ of their taxpayers has been stolen right out from under their noses.

Following in the tradition of the British Administration during the ww2 period in Palestine.:

Appease the Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem by sneding Jews back to europe for incineration = appease the Mufti's spiritual jew-hating successor (The PA) by givng them the funds he needs to keep up his genocidal campaign agianst the jews of 'palestine'.

Somethings don't change. Malignant meddling in the mid east by products of the British Foreign Ministry is one of them.

Didn't Britain and the US, aware of the goings on at concentration camps, refuse to investigate or launch attacks against the camp infrastructures? Aren't these doings by patten the same?

Didn't they have the same pusilanimous reasons, just couched more elegantly than ' like I need a hole in my head " ?

A hole in his head is exactly what he needs. Unfortunately, he'll probably get promoted to greater and greater responsibility instead.

"To be more specific, the European Union bans any written material, any image or any other representation of ideas or theories, which advocates, promotes or incites hatred, discrimination or violence, against any individual or group of individuals, based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin, as well as religion if used as pretext for any of these factors."

So, no more 'death to America' chanting and U.S. flag-burning, no more fatwas against the West, no more sneering editorials in the Guardian full of bigotted sterotypes of Americans, and this past weekend's anti-American hatefest -- with it's libelous protest signage and slanderous speeches, will be a thing of the past.

Oops, silly me. For thee but not for me. This -- like the ICC -- will only be used to delegitimize and bludgeon the Euro-Left's political enemies. This -- like the UN Human Rights Commission -- will be corrupted and politicized beyond anything its misguided creators ever intended.

I guess I'm just naive. I am constantly amazed that this man can say the most inanely stupid things and still be allowed to lead. It isn't as though anyone elected these people.

Would someone from the EU explain to me why any of them are still in power? Henry S? (By the bye, Henry S., I'd like to see a demonstration in Europe that made sense. Good luck. [And I'm not being sarcastic.]) Anyone?

Hole in the head! How would a sieve know if it had acquired another hole?

Some excellent comments above. Thanks for the links. I needed to reread some of that.

There were two revolutions at the end of the 18th century. The question of which path to follow still divides the United States from Europe. We favor the path of 1776. France and the continent are still following the example of 1789.

The Parisian university contribution can be seen in two of its glorious 20th century students. The founders of the Khmer of Cambodia and the Baath of Syria and Iraq both developed their ideologies in Paris. How many did the Khmer Rouge kill? As for the Baath, the results are still being tallied.

This quite an article. Really telling where the stinking EU is at. "Why won't those damn Jews just disappear? All we care about is oil from Arabia and our bloated, selfish, godless lives and the Jews always get in the way"

Many thanks CH for posting this one!

#20 Ranbutan. The president who cuts US aid to Israel would lose the next election, and deservedly so.

The US supports Israel not only on moral grounds but in order to show that the US will not abandon it's allies. That is the same reason that the US doggedly supports Taiwan and South Korea. I'm very surprised you did not mention those two countries which we are also defending with vast resources. The US supports Israel also because, pardon me for not being PC, it is the only civilized country in the region. It is the only democracy, it is the only country which respects human rights and is the only open society in the Middle East.

Also, how do you think the 2 billion in military aid to Israel is used? It is used to purchase armaments from the US. It is a method of channeling money to the US arms industry and simultaneously supporting an ally.

The US, as the sole superpower, simply cannot revert to the 1930's isolationism. That would save you a few dollars in taxes but would bring about world-wide catastrophy and war and would ultimately harm US security, prestige, and power of deterrence.

Call the two schools what they are: (In the words of Ayn Rand) The individual vs. the collective. The EU will never be anything more than what it is because theirs' is a collectivist premise. They've learned nothing from their vaunted history. But we might still learn. We still have time. We ought to give long thought to such things as socialized medicine, and any other program that leads us further down the collectivist road. We have the history to fight these things. Our founding fathers' left us a heritage that we are ignoring everytime someone promotes further programs that are based on socialist thinking. It has never worked anywhere in the world. It has consistently brought about death and destruction. It will do so here as well.

The commenter above is correct in saying that the difference between the US and Europe can be found in the wars of revolution of the 18th century. Unfortunately, that which tainted European thought then are the same ideas that are tainting the American Revolution today. In trying to correct mistakes made at the time, we have merely moved further towards the collectivism espoused by the (mainly German) philosophers of Europe. This is what is at the base of the morally bankrupt theories that allow us to justify doing deals with murderers like Arafat.

#20 Ranbutan. Just one more thing.

...Arafat engaging in local liberation struggles from being lumped in with Al Qaeda

This statement sticks out, as they say, like a sore thumb. The massacre of women and children which took place yesterday at Kibbutz Metrzer was carried out by a terrorist group which has been proven to be under Arafat's direct control. And of course over the last 2 years we have seen countless, countless other examples of this type of demonic terrorism.

Please explain to me how this sort of terrorism is different form Al-Qaeda. Please explain to me whether this massacre was aimed at "liberation" or if it had other aims.

Dee Bates (#46) the EU "leaders" are neither elected by nor accountable to the people. They are selected by their "peers" and approved by the executives of the various member countries. I'm not even sure if they'd lose their job if they were shown to have (directly) killed someone. This is why the EU is not anything remotely like a European version of the United States -- rather it's the UESR (union of the european socialist republics) run by a bunch of commissars.

#35 I can not access the links you put up right now(work filter and all) but if you think the Europeans care much about Christianity anymore you are mistaken. Europe is a secular society now. The most generous measures of church attendence for instance put the number regular attendees at less than 10% of the population. There are no casual attenders. Evangelicals are almost nonexistant.

The European hated for Israel is a combination of antisemitism, postcolonial guilt, and foolishness. Christianity, for all intents and purposes, is dead in most of Europe.

#35 Also hardly any Christians believe that Christians are a replacement for Jews. In America at least, you will find much more support for Israel among evengelical Christians than almost any other group. This is for a variaty of reasons including some who think Israel is needed for the end times to occur to those who just like Jews because they think they are God's chosen people to those who think Israel is an ally and has a just government.

Steve Peden,

That was a great post (#24)...fantastic. I would only add that they also hate us because they can. In the past, there were no real consequences in hating America because we're purportedly such knuckle-draggin' ignoramuses that we can't conceive disdain when it is spits right in our eye. On one hand, we brain drain the rest of the world and have some of the smartest people inventing things here but on the other hand, we're big, fat, stupid, beer-belly bumpkins. It merely depends on their mood what we are on that particular day--rich, smart, and too optimistic, or fat, stupid, and lazy.

If they openly hated Pakistan, for instance, their (culturally) unassimilated Muslims would have a problem with that and perhaps riot or...I don't know...kill some more Jews or something.

Hating us doesn't cost them anything--but I hope that might be changing.

I believe Mises wrote that any movement based solely on anti-xxx-ism is destined to failure--surely excepting things like anti-Domest violence or anti-pedophilia, etc.

Chris Patten is typical of the EU hypocrite. He promotes the self determination of a fictional people "the Palestinians" whilst turns a blind eye to the human rights abuses of 1500 year old peoples in Europe like the Welsh. see [Link: www.independent...] wales.com

I'm absolutely convinced that the only reason Patten has no interest is because it would be in HIS best interest.
The less the world knows that he's pocketing some Arafat change, the easier it is sending his kids off to private school.

I think we Americans 1) are finally becoming enraged at the betrayal of those countries who owe us a serious national debt in blood, money and politics, especially in Europe, and 2) are starting to think about taking on the imperial role that others accuse us of.

This war is exposing all that was deliberately left ambiguous by our political and business classes over the past several decades, and the political fissures we've recently seen will widen as the war accelerates.

EU statement says they condemn terrorism. EU won't even investigate whether the EU funds terrorism. I would love to hear that the EU aren't funding homicide bombers and other brave soldiers of the Palestinian cause. Please, Chris, I don't ask a lot.

If Israel could prove a link between the EU and terrorism, would military action be fair? If the US are going after those who shelter terrorists, surely Israel can go after those who fund it?

Henry S., I'm in the UK and would join a pressure group if I had time. Sadly, I'm engaged in the folly that is the AS level system. But if you post links to any petition, I'll sign.

#49 - Erik

#20 Ranbutan. The president who cuts US aid to Israel would lose the next election, (That does say much for the power of Jewish political lobbying dollars and the repercussions the president would face from the media, Erik. I think you are right. Better to give in than take on the one 3% of the Amertican population that can take down a president) and deservedly so (IYO).

The US supports Israel not only on moral grounds but in order to show that the US will not abandon it's allies. (That assumes any aid given should not be met with gratitute, only with the expectation that aid never cease, or else. After what, 115 billion net since 1949??? Same attitude as the folks that believed in welfare in perpetuity, and threatened burning cities if it was ever cut off).That is the same reason that the US doggedly supports Taiwan and South Korea. I'm very surprised you did not mention those two countries which we are also defending with vast resources. (I am very surprised too. Given that once both countries developed modern economies with good standards of living, we stopped the aid. Unlike Israel, they pay for their weapons, they don't get them for free. Nor do they get billions in economic subsidies even though S Korea and Taiwan have a lower per capita income. Nor can wealthy Asian-Americans get a tax writeoff donating to the "mother"country. Obviously, they are failing to grease the right hands in the USA).The US supports Israel also because, pardon me for not being PC, it is the only civilized country in the region. It is the only democracy, it is the only country which respects human rights and is the only open society in the Middle East. (As long as you aren't a Pal under occupation)

Also, how do you think the 2 billion in military aid to Israel is used? It is used to purchase armaments from the US. (Also, to subsidize Israel Defense industries, so they can compete with America and sometimes pull stunts like trying to sell AWACs technology to China). It is a method of channeling money to the US arms industry and simultaneously supporting an ally. (Why aren't we giving our UK allies free weapons and cash for their citizens, then?)

The US, as the sole superpower, simply cannot revert to the 1930's isolationism. That would save you a few dollars in taxes but would bring about world-wide catastrophy and war and would ultimately harm US security, prestige, and power of deterrence. [I believe my original post asked why we are paying billions in the ME for welfare and destabilizing programs, and how the rest of the world sees it. Finally, how the Israelis, Egyptians, and Pals would go nuts if decades on the US taxpayer dole was reconsidered. Nothing about US isolationism. Indeed, it would be showing US commitment to long-ignored areas of the world if US largess was transferred from ME ingrates (Egypt, Israel, Palestine) to more needy nations. And, aid to the ME has nothing to do with US prestige (being there has cost us prestige), security, and deterrance. It has everything to do with greasing squeaky wheels].

#52 Kalle Kufr

The UESR? Union of European Socialist Republics.

Perfect.

Does that mean that the UESR will implode and we can get together for Nuremberg 2, Chris Patten and his horde of sycophants declared persona non grata and exiled to Palestine, Land of the Ugly?

Ploome, this reminds me of a textbook I saw for a Middle-East studies course that had a preface covering the several thousand years before Islam, and the rest of the textbook was devoted to the Muslim world after 700 AD. However, it was not presented as just a history of Islam in the Middle East.

Ranbutan,

I know you'll continue thinking the Jews are controlling the world anyway, but would you mind not making things up?

After what, 115 billion net since 1949?

The rate of >$2b a year doesn't even make logical sense. It's about $3b now, and aid didn't even start until the 70s. So, by your estimate of 115 billion, the US would have had to give an average of slightly less than $5b a year to Israel, or roughly 1.6x what we give them now.

BTW, watch out for those Jews... I've put your name on the anti-Jew list, and who knows what could happen. Mwahaha. Mwahahahaha. (Just kidding, in case you didn't know.)

#51 - Erik

#20 Ranbutan. Just one more thing.

...Arafat engaging in local liberation struggles from being lumped in with Al Qaeda. (You left off the other "localized" terrorists in your fixation with Arafat - so re-consider post #20 and tell me how Arafat is distinguished from Begin, Keynatta, etc. Add you own local terrorist/statesman to the list. Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Massood, Suharto, Sukarno...the list is long, and a matter of personal taste).

This statement sticks out, as they say, like a sore thumb. The massacre of women and children which took place yesterday at Kibbutz Metrzer was carried out by a terrorist group which has been proven to be under Arafat's direct control. And of course over the last 2 years we have seen countless, countless other examples of this type of demonic terrorism.

Please explain to me how this sort of terrorism is different form Al-Qaeda. (Again, you have to understand the distinction the US was forced to make between "liberation" terrorists operating locally, and international terrorists. If we had failed to, Leftist EU countries, Africa, several Asian nations, and all the Muslim nations would not have agreed to support the War on Terror. Indeed, liberal Jews in the USA still thinking of Communism and the class struggle as a noble effort would have objected strongly, as lumping Arafat in with Al Qaeda would have also meant lumping Mandela, Trotsky, Che, and Mao in) Please explain to me whether this massacre was aimed at "liberation" or if it had other aims. Liberation. Kill the Settlers, kill their collaborators. If you kill enough, and they don't kill enough of you, or their morale is destroyed before your sides, the land is liberated and the goal achieved. The logic of butchery in war, if you wish...No different than what Mandela and the ANC did, no different than what Ho Chi Minh did, no different than what Jomo Kenyatta did. They killed by the village or the family. Given that the world accepts these odious creatures (add Menachim Begin & peers), if not actually approves...(inc Israel by electing Shamir, Begin, Sharon) - Arafat remains a local terrorist.

Fair?

Sorry Erik, nothing in global affairs is fair. The world would be better off if Arafat dropped dead 20 years ago, but it would also have been better off if Sharon had kicked the bucket in 1981, before the Lebanon fiasco started and the massacres that marked Israel's descent into being a pariah nation. Arafat is not part of the war on international terror because the world wants to give him a "bye", and the US will not threaten global security and the entire war by defying them over Yassir=Bin Laden logic, the Settlements, and the Pals.

The EU is a fundamentally an undemocratic institution. It has a habit of pushing its agenda through regardless of the wishes of individual states (how many people voted for the introduction of the Euro?) If referenda are held, a vote against its wishes is ignored and another referendum is held until the 'right' result is obtained.

Its view of democracy is very different from the US model. It is one where a self-appointed, un-elected (Chris Pattern) elite rule and overrule national governments. Where there is little respect for the ordinary people, who should be grateful for the what ever crumbs of democracy are thrown at them. It is certainly not a democracy of the people, for the people.

It is tragic that the UK remains a member of this organisation and its sovereignty continues to be eroded.

Info on US aid to Israel here and here and here

Info on Israeli foreign trade here

I read somewhere that the US aid was a pretty small percentage of the Israeli economy, so certainly we are not "propping them up." Given the amount of scientific research and technological innovation Israel is responsible for, one could consider the aid an investment in a think tank that is benefiting the entire world.

"I doubt Patten is behaving this way because he actively wants to see innocent Jews killed and wants to help fund that."

Actually, I don't have a doubt in my mind that that's exactly why Patten is behaving this way.

...why should Patten bother to investigate...

(from Taranto, Opinion Journal)

Israel Radio Arab Affairs Correspondent Avi Yissakharov reported this morning that Yasser Arafat's Tanzim Al Aqsa Brigade . . . slaughter of 5 last night at a kibbutz within the Green Line technically did not violate the deal being brokered by the European Union that there be no suicide attacks within the Green Line since this was not a suicide attack.

Ranbutan #65,

Again, you descend into fantasy.

as lumping Arafat in with Al Qaeda would have also meant lumping Mandela, Trotsky, Che, and Mao in

Differences:
Mandela: Not exactly a big fighter with guns. Not a real believer in violence. Certainly believed in equality with the white folk (can't see that in AraRat's or Bin Laden's ideology, 'fraid to say).

Trotsky: Didn't believe in running around and "purging". Most of the purges were of Trotsky and his friends and occurred after his time (for obvious reasons). Hardly one of my darlings anyway.

Che: I don't know enough to comment.

Mao: Hardly one of my darlings anyway.

No different than what Mandela and the ANC did, no different than what Ho Chi Minh did, no different than what Jomo Kenyatta did. They killed by the village or the family. Given that the world accepts these odious creatures (add Menachim Begin & peers), if not actually approves...(inc Israel by electing Shamir, Begin, Sharon) - Arafat remains a local terrorist.

I don't believe Mandela has the blood of villages on his hands. Begin is not "odious", he was a fighter for real, true national liberation. He didn't kill Arab babies.

AraRat is only a local terrorist if you don't believe that he is sponsored by the Saudi entity, the Iraqis, etc, etc - in contravention to all evidence that they are in fact paying genocide bombers' family, etc.

but it would also have been better off if Sharon had kicked the bucket in 1981, before the Lebanon fiasco started and the massacres that marked Israel's descent into being a pariah nation. Arafat is not part of the war on international terror because the world wants to give him a "bye",

Actually, Israel's descent into being a pariah nation happened prior to Lebanon. Remember "Zionism is Racism" - that was the 70s. DeGaulle made some comments about how the Jews had become quite uppity - which was why he didn't want to support Israel after 73. AraRat is given a "bye" because he's only killing Jews, not for any other reason.

#10 & #15:
Those who wish to fight European funding of terrorism would do well to contact Atty. Nitzana Darshan-Leitner. This remarkable woman, in addition to filing suits in Israeli courts against the PA on behalf of victims of terrorism, is in the process of doing the same in European courts against the EU. I believe information regarding her efforts can be found at the Arutz Sheva website; if not, a search should turn up something. (She recently did a speaking tour in the US; that may still be going on.)

#65 ranbutten: are you arguing that arafat is a localized terrorist? What about Munich?

Ranbutan #65,

Again, you descend into fantasy.

Oh, but that bold font makes the argument so much more persuasive. To steal the recent JLichty's comment, imagine how terribly forceful Ran's rants would become is he brings out REALLY HEAVY WEAPONRY, LIKE ALL CAPS (OR, GOD FORBID, BOLD CAPS!).

#51 erik: I don't think there is any difference between the Q crowd as someone called them and Arafat's mob. They've been trained by Q-people who've come through Syria and are funded by Iran or even Saddam himself. He's been giving Arafat funds for a long time. It's all part and parcel of the same war. Those who draw distinctions are only kidding themselves.

As for Chris Patten, I note we was Governor of Hong Kong up to '97. I would say that after a lifetime in low-paying bureaucratic jobs he's coming to the age of retirement and has a cushy nest in this EUnik council and is feathering his retirement nest with Arafat kickbacks to look the other way. But if you look at the paragraph above, you'll see that indirectly Chris Patten is feathering his nest with monies from Saddam too.

Oh, that's right, so is Schroeder and the rest. The UN 'oil for food' program finds buyers for the oil (Germany, France ++) who get a good price, Saddam skims his off the top of that to build his palaces and fatten his war chest, Kofi Annan gets to handle the money in secret (all transactions VERY hush hush) and so who knows how much is getting creamed off the cash flow there, or the interest?? where does that go and how much and does it ALL go in the bank, oh yes, UN pays itself for handling the transactions out of that. So beteen the EU and UN they've got a nice little racket going with Saddam. Why would Chris Patten open his mouth and blow the whistle on all that. If he tells on Arafat he loses the goose AND the egg. It's all tied up together. And the US is supposed to be corrupt?

IMO, trying to have a productive discussion with Ranbutan about his antisemitism and anti-Israeli sentiments is marginally less satisfying than, say, banging your head repeatedly against a brick wall. Not only will you fail to change his mind about any facet of his opinions, he is not even intellectually honest enough to admit to his anti-Semitism. The Tick, Tock thread has finally convinced me of that.

Knock yourselves out. I've given up.

I'm with you mommydoc #75.

The self-described "highly-ed" who "some of the more strident may consider antisemitic", is not worth our collective time.

Ranbutan is like a mosquito bite. Always itchty and irritating when left alone, but even worse when you scratch him.

I will no longer engage with his disengenous twisting of arguments and even more disengenuous twisting of history.

I can turn him off just like I do with Pat Buchannan, and I recommend to all others to do the same lest every thread turn into a pulpit for his Euro-style cocktail party anti-semitism.

BTW--when people refer to the "Q-people," I assume we're talking about al Queda. I know it's good shorthand, but every time someone writes, it, I flash on our very own Q--and now the juxtaposition has occurred. Not that I want to censor anyone, but could we maybe drop that expression for that reason? Since Q is anything but a terrorist-supporter!

JLichty--very well said. Especially the mosquito-bite metaphor (LOL!)

Trotsky: Didn't believe in running around and "purging". Most of the purges were of Trotsky and his friends and occurred after his time (for obvious reasons). Hardly one of my darlings anyway.

Actually, Trotsky was a butcher. He was the head of Revvoensovet (Revolutionary Military Council) during the Russian Civil War - i.e. the head of Bolshevik military (Red Army). Thus, the blood of the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands was on his hands.

The only difference between the Civil War butchery and the later "purges" is that the party and military elite were mostly not affected during the former*. Only later, starting in the middle to late 20s, did the spiders in a jar turn against each other.

*)Although Bolsheviks never hesitated to stab their temporary allies in the back once their usefulness ran out (that was one of the reasons of their eventual victory) - most notable examples were the Left Socialist Revolutionaries - a party that formed a governing coalition with Bolsheviks for a short while - and Nestor Makhno's Anarchist army. Incidentally, Makhno was the recipient #2 of the Order of the Red Banner - the highest award of the Bolshevik state at the time. Didn't help him, though - he barely escaped with his life after helping the Red Army to capture Crimea. The recipient #1 was Blukher - a promiment Red Army commander, eliminated during the the late 30's purges.

Sorry for going so far OT - just wanted to wave my huge erudition around for a bit. ;-)

Mommydoc (#77):

I was just about to start foaming at the mouth with righteous indignation, when you made the point for me. Thanx!

Q - Bold type in the context of insertion of comments in an annotation of another post is not "shouting". Any discerning person understands that.

Ariel - Add in the tax deduction for Americans donating to Israel (the only nation so favored that way) as an indirect Federal subsidy. The 115 billion (2000) is in present dollars reflecting direct and indirect aid over 50 years. It could be 30 billion less, it could be 30 billion more. I would love to get some other estimates if you think my number is grossly off...with assumptions made, indirect aid included.

#72 Superfly - Arafat=Black September=Munich??? I am unaware of the little toad's fingerprints on that one. Same with the Rome airport. Also thought someone might tie Arafat to an Israeli embassy bombing but he seems to be clean of "international terror" in the last 20 years. I recall he did have something to do with Entebbe and reputedly some hijacking logistics...but that's well before most people were born.

#70 - Ariel. Might want to brush up on your history before exculpating other Yassir-like folks from the past. Mandela - ANC "tire necklacing", burning whole collaborator families with petrol bombs in Soweto, killing white families at isolated farmsteads. His foes - Apartheid dudes just as nasty. Trotsky 1. Liquidation of White Russian class enemies. 2. Liquidation of anti-Soviet counter-revolutionaries in party ranks. 3. Liquidation of Kulaks. Postscript - Trotsky's own liquidation by ice ax. Begin King David hotel. Car bombings of British officials and their families. Deir Yassin. Mao So many killed he transcends "terrorist". Like Hitler and Stalin, monsterhood bestowed...except by holdout Left.

Agree, reflecting on it, that Israel's pariah hood started before Lebanon with the fixation on Zionism as "racism" (no worse than the concept of dar al Islam). Shame no one defended Zionism on grounds that it did have intolerance built in as a political-religious movement, but far less intolerance than Islam itself. During the same period, Israel also started cozying up to South Africa and some of the stench of S Africa's own pariah hood rubbed off on Israel.

However, I will add in, on relection that if Sharon had dropped dead in 1981, there wouldn't be 200,000 Settlers...there wouldn't even be 20,000...and most of them would be in the East Jeruselem's traditional Jewish areas. Wait and see, Ariel...history will deal with the refugee camp massacres and Lebanon as small potatos compared to the disaster of the Sharon championing the Settlement policy.

Does anyone seriously believe that the EU funds the Palestinian Authority because secretly they like it when Hamas blows people up in Israel? I think the Europeans are a bit naive in their dogged pursuit of peace and accomodation with the Palestinians, but they're not evil.

Also, I think that the brainwashing programs after WWII that were intended to condition the Germans to hate war have been a little too successful. I blame America for that :-)

Britain I think is still a little sore at having lost it's "mandate" in Palestine after 1948. Part of me kind of wonders whether things would have turned out better in Israel and Palestine if the Brits had simply refused to give in to Begin and his terrorist cronies and had just held onto the whole area with an iron fist (similar to the way that the USSR managed to keep ethnic hatreds from boiling over in the Balkans under the pacifying influence of the Iron Curtain.)

It's difficult to understand why European acquiese to the rulings of ninnies like Patten unless you know some history. France has always had a strong centralized, heavily bureaucratic state, both before the Revolution (LouisXIV) and after. The EUnuchs have simply taken the place of the aristocrats that used to run Europe.

The case which most interests (and worries) me, is the U.K. Britain has a class system which runs very deep, but in earlier centuries that was countered by a sturdily independent yeomanry, a democratic tradition (which produced our own), and great pride in not being like "the Continentals." Unfortunately, Peter Hitchens (Christopher's conservative brother) has written that the creation of the nanny state after WWII, coupled with the end of the Empire and the decline of the UK's status as a Great Power has sapped much the old English spirit. Not entirely, of course; Tony Blair has been a strong ally of ours. And they haven't given the pound up yet. But Hitchens notes that the British bulldog is much more willing to submit to the EU leash than anyone would have dreamt possible a few generations ago.

It;s all well and good to rant against the EU, but IMO we Americans should not be pointing to the mote in Patten's eye. The PA is being propped up by the US first and foremost.

We mock the deliberations of the Iraqi Parliament, which is a rubber stamp for Saddam, but the Bush Administration demands that Israel negotiate with the PA, which is a rubber stamp for Arafat. Arafat kills Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Americans. He is simply a murderer, but he is protected by a modern-day mark of Cain, administered by none other than George W. Bush.

America won't negotiate with terror, but it demands that Israel do so, and America refuses to move against Arafat itself despite his many assaults on Americans. By sacrificing principle for political expediency, the US sabotages its own war effort. But then, the war on terror is taking a back seat all too often these days.

Al Qaeda knocked off Ahmad Shah Massoud two days before the 9/11 assault on America. Will Bush be smart enough to take Arafat out of action before we move on Iraq?

Goat Boy wrote:

whether things would have turned out better in Israel and Palestine if the Brits had simply refused to give in to Begin and his terrorist cronies and had just held onto the whole area with an iron fist (similar to the way that the USSR managed to keep ethnic hatreds from boiling over in the Balkans under the pacifying influence of the Iron Curtain.)

??? Britain didn't "give in" to Begin or the Irgun, and the USSR hardly pacified the Balkans, most of which the USSR did not control. To the extent that Tito and others "pacified" the Balkans, they did it in the same way that Heydrich "pacified" Czechoslovakia. All of which assumes that you're not making a joke, of course.

Yes, everything would be more peaceful under the iron fist of forced conformity. I saw that movie, too, it was called Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Goatboy writes(82):

Does anyone seriously believe that the EU funds the Palestinian Authority because secretly they like it when Hamas blows people up in Israel?

I believe it. Oh, I don't think most Europeans pop open a bottle of champagne when settlers are murdered on the West Bank(well, Tom Paulin does), but why on earth do you think they pay so much attention to Israeli "oppression" while ignoring greater abuses committed by Arabs and others? I don't doubt for a moment that every time a homicide bombers kills people in Israel, some Europeans think (and these days, say) "The Jews had it coming."

Remember, the Holocaust didn't come out of nowhere. It was the culmination of 2000 years of hatred. What's naive is the assumption that European anti-Semitism has disappeared.

BTW, did anyone else read in "Best of the Web" today that Harvard has invited Tom Paulin to speak? My Lord, why don't they invite Baraki too? The two most famous literary anti-semites since Ezra Pound can regale the audience with a Jew-hatin' rap duet. What was Larry Summers saying about anti-Semitism on campus again?

Trotsky 1. Liquidation of White Russian class enemies. 2. Liquidation of anti-Soviet counter-revolutionaries in party ranks. 3. Liquidation of Kulaks. Postscript - Trotsky's own liquidation by ice ax.

Pretty much beside the point, but for the sake of historical accuracy: 2. and 3. had little to do with Trotsky, as they occured after his departure from power.

#2: The intra-party struggle didn't take on the physically eliminational character until the 30's (Trotsky in foreign exile by then). Until then, it was more along the lines of "we're all buddies, despite the disagreements", poisonous Lenin-inspired rhetoric notwithstanding. That was one of the reasons why Stalin's rivals allowed him to "sneak up" on them - they just coudn't imagine that the fate they so freely bestowed on the general populace would be theirs, too.

#3: Although savage anti-peasant repression took place all throughout the Civil War, the complete elimination of Kulaks ("wealthy" peasants and farmers) did not take place until 1929 - with Trotsky on an island in the Marble Sea.

Mommydoc - it is bigoted only if it is incorrect, or if it is correct and you prejudge individuals based on your collective feelings for the group that you have a (correct general judgement) about. Bias is of course an inclination neither good nor bad in of itself. I have bias, but not bigotry. You by your admission, have bigotry towards Muslims, but couch that in semantics - "I don't hate all Pals - just the Paleostinians (which you say you will weed out by scrutiny), and so on. Surrounded by like-minded folks that say "atta girl" you may not recognise it - but outside the absence of wild conspiracy theories, you are pretty similar to an Egyptian woman I debated on the net. Anything outside her "line of accepted" thinking was malignant and her objections always personal.

Based on your statements here that you would apply your negative feelings to Muslims as individuals until they "prove" themselves...I hope you would at least tell a Muslim patient that you have some issues that could conceivably prevent you from practicing medicine on them in an acceptable, professional fashion. To do otherwise would be failing your duty and oath.

I on the other hand, have never said I distrust Jews as individuals. I support Israel, though I have criticisms. I admire Jewish accomplishments, but do not want - for the good of the country (America) overall - control of critical institutions or undue influence on those institutions - by a small group...Besides Jewish concentration, I would not like it to find the Biltbergers running things in all agribiz, wake up to the discover the Family Courts were largely in the hands of feminist attorneys, or find that the whole banking system was in the hands of Skull&Crossbones alumni, or our entire telecomm industry was in the hands of Chinese-Americans who had deep ties to the "Mother Country".

So mommydoc, I can only conclude by logic , given your admitted negative feelings towards Muslims...that if I was a doctor, Jews would be given the best treatment I could give, whereas Muslims might not if you get them in Practice.

Other than ticking you off, my observations and judgements of other cultures appear to have no real world consequences to anyone. Your admissions on how you see Muslims and would interact with them as individuals do. You may want to recalibrate.

Q - I stand corrected on Trotsky. I thought he had a falling out in the late 30's, and had involvement with the Ukraine liquidation and famine prior to that. Specifically, that he lasted as a force until after Bukarin's trial (1938), then fled, died in Mexico in 1940. It appears his ouster was effective years before he fled...as you stated.

Seems I was off by a decade on Trotsky's time of key influence.

But we agree on the first point. Trotsky was a liquidator extraodinaire during the Civil War
He was part and parcel of Lenin's Revolutionary Terror aimed at the bourgeoisie and class enemies, as well as the White Army.

And, you are right on the irony of men who butchered millions never really contemplated their fate might be the same (as Molotov and Iron Feliks boys and girls took notes, made lists at Party meetings where free & open debate on "issues" occured)

A thought just occurred to me: the US has spent a lot of time making sure the idiotarian International Criminal Court doesn't go after US troops. Why not turn the tables around, and build the case to the ICC that Chris Patten has been subsidizing terrorism?

Hey, somewhere in America there's gotta be a lawyer willing to tilt at windmills...

Goatboy--I believe it, too.

Does anyone think that maybe the reason the centralized bureaucracies do so so well in Europe is that the Europeans just don't have such a visceral pride and concern about their governments as we do in the US? It just occurred to me that, while their republics, which are quasi-democratic, are the result of centuries and centuries of evolution (yes, revolution was involved, but it was not de novo creation, and, compared to totalitarian monarchy, was a big improvement.)

On the other hand, however, the US government is the first that we as a sovereign nation have had, and was created de novo. It also was the first of its kind in the modern world, and, for those reasons, I believe that we take a far more personal stake in our government. Not that there aren't plenty of people in the US who take government for granted, not that we don't also have bureaucracy, and not that Europeans don't get pretty emotional about their governments at times, but I think it may explain why bureaucracy flourishes there far more. Any thoughts?

And, as an aside, while there is no question that the massacres in the Sabra and Shatila camps was an absolute, unqualified horror, it is also not clear to me that it would not have occurred if the Israelis had not been there. While Sharon was held indirectly responsible for allowing the Phalangists to enter the camps, because they indeed had every reason to suspect that they would exact retribution against the Palestinians for the PLO's role in the civil war and possible assasination of the new President, I have always wondered about the responsibility of the Israelis to permit or prevent actions by the Lebanese Army within its own borders.

I personally think Sharon's guilt in the matter is overstated as time goes on, while the PLO's role in provoking the attacks, including hiding in the civilian population of the camps, is swept under the rug. It's not like they were dealing directly with the Israelis, who typically demonstrate far more restraint than any Arab nation would if the PLO and Hamas treated any of them the way they treat Israel.

Ranbutan (#81)

During the same period, Israel also started cozying up to South Africa and some of the stench of S Africa's own pariah hood rubbed off on Israel.

Care to explain that statement?

An instructive anecdote on how to deal with obnoxious, morally bankrupt euro-weeniedom, in which a heroic role is played by, of all people, scumbag filmmaker Larry Clark. (The link is via Spoons.) [Link: www.nypost.com...]

It's a little off-topic, but it does provide an example of European Schadenfreude at the fate of slaughtered Israelis.

Since we are doing war poetry today, I would like to dedicate this one to Chris Patten:

A STATESMAN

I could not dig: I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?

--Kipling

(Charles, calling this guy a "reptile" is unfair to snakes.)

in which a heroic role is played by, of all people, scumbag filmmaker Larry Clark

"Scumbag"? Because his films "feature lots of male and female full-frontal nudity and an explicit three-way sex"? Come on.

Israeli lawyer Nitsana Darshan-Leitner is suing the EU right now. She is speaking all over the U.S. about this. I saw her last week in N.J. She took Patten to court and instead of denying the charges he basically said you have no power to sue me. If you have a chance to hear her speak, go!

She's also starting, "Shurat Hadin - Israel Law Center."

from http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=14175

Last week, Darshan-Leitner won a landmark 64-million shekel ($13
million) lien against Arafat's assets, for the family of an IDF soldier
brutally lynched by the Palestinian Police in Ramallah. The money has been
deducted from PA funds that were frozen by Israel early in the Intifada, but
which Israel intends to release to the PA in the coming weeks ( - a result
of intense U.S. pressure).

"Each bullet costs the Palestinian terrorists one dollar, " Darshan-Leitner
explains,
"The lien we have placed on the PA's assets will therefore deprive the PA
terrorist organizations of some 13 million bullets. Each such attachment
we secure against the PA's money means that the lives of more Israelis are
being saved. Moreover, the money is being taken from the PA's coffers and
given to those who deserve it most: the families of the victims of Arafat's
terrorism."

In addition to the Jerusalem court decision, Darshan-Leitner stated that in
the coming days she expects to win a first-of-its-kind judgment against
Hamas in a United States federal court, on behalf of the orphans of a young
Jewish couple murdered in a drive-by shooting in 1996.

Darshan-Leitner notes that she launched the long overdue Jewish legal rights
center in Israel out of necessity. Her office was being flooded with appeals
for legal assistance from terror victims. According Darshan-Leitner: "
Shurat HaDin - Israel Law Center, is serving as a legal resource and
research institute for the numerous legal battles that we are waging against
terrorism in the Israeli, American and European courts on
behalf of the Jewish State and its citizens. We envision it as a central
clearinghouse and litigation base for the multifarious legal fights that
have been thrust upon us."

In the
lectures, Darshan-Leitner will discuss:

* * How the European Union has become the biggest financial supporter of
Palestinian terror
* * Legal efforts on behalf of captured Arab undercover agents who spy for
Israel
* * Efforts to track the funding and material support for terrorist groups
by Syria, Iran and Iraq.
* * Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti, who is on trial in Tel Aviv for ordering
terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians

where you can hear her:
Chicago, IL, Religious Zionist Center, Religious Zionist of America, AMIT
Women and JCRC/Jewish Federation, November 11th.
Chicago, IL, Decalogue Society of Lawyers and American Jewish Committee,
November 12th.
Chicago, IL, John Marshall Law School, November 12th.
Great Neck, Long Island, Great Neck Synagogue, November 13th.
Toronto, Canada, Congregation Shaarei Shomayim, Toronto Zionist Council,
November 14th.
Cedarhurst, Long Island, Young Israel of Lawrence-Cedarhurst, November 16th.

mommydoc wrote:

Not that there aren't plenty of people in the US who take government for granted, not that we don't also have bureaucracy, and not that Europeans don't get pretty emotional about their governments at times, but I think it may explain why bureaucracy flourishes there far more.

That's true. Governments in Europe evolved from divine-right-of-kings monarchies (which required elaborate bureaucracies to function) and petty city states to democracy over a long period and they did so at very uneven rates. We forget how new democracy is to the Continent. Just keeping track of France's leadership alone from 1789 to the present gets confusing. A meddling bureaucracy, to many Europeans, must be something you endure, or evade (the Italians), or submit to (the Germans), but not something you challenge or can do anything about.

Whereas our incredible Founding Fathers (and the more you read about them, the more amazing it becomes that we had a talent pool like that in the right place at the right time) built our liberties right into the system from Day 1. Yes, our record was marred by slavery and racial injustice, but we have broadened the term "We the People" to include those of every race and creed.

The peasant mentality of deference to one's betters is still strong over there, except it's Chris Patten calling the shots rather than the Count of Weinerwurst. Imagine the uproar here if Congress mandated the exact curvature of bananas, as the EU does.

I can understand to a certain extent, given their terrible history, why Europeans seem to value a social safety net above freedom. What irks me is that the elite don't want to even try to understand our history and traditions. Everything comes down to "You're simplistic, you're cowboys, blah, blah, blah" as if the entire history of the US boils down to an episode of "Rawhide."

BTW--decent link to discussion of the Sabra and Shatila massacres: [Link: www.globalpolicy.org...]

Ranbutan: This is the last comment I will make to you on this subject. From now on, leave me out of it, and I will refrain from mentioning you or responding to you on this subject.

Do not misquote me. To do do is to lie, in this case. I have never said that I hate anyone. In fact, my exact words were:

Do I hate all Arabs or all Muslims? No, but I distrust you all as a group now, and make exceptions on an individual basis. Why? Because as a group, you have given me no signals to tell which of you is a threat to my very safety. On the other hand, individuals (mostly women) have--my Kashmiri attending in my residency and her husband, a very sweet Pakistani former patient, my Iranian-born seatmate flying home from Denver on 9/14/01, who also became a patient and friend.

My distrust is based on specific actions, namely, flying jumbo jets into skyscrapers and the Pentagon and horrific attacks specifically targeting unarmed Israeli civilians, including children. Your "bias" against Jews as a group is based on some theoretical fear that if we are in positions of potential influence, such as Hollywood and the Senate, in numbers at all disproportionate to our relative population that we will somehow do harm to the nation. By anyone's definition but your own self-serving one, you are a bigot, since you would clearly apply quotas to Jews, thereby denying them the ability to compete fairly based on ability. Then again, by your own admission, you would do the same to African Americans in basketball.

I was also very clear that, on an individual basis, my feelings are different. Thus, this is a positively disgusting statement on your part:

So mommydoc, I can only conclude by logic , given your admitted negative feelings towards Muslims...that if I was a doctor, Jews would be given the best treatment I could give, whereas Muslims might not if you get them in Practice.

Wrong as usual on this point. Excerpt from e-mail from a former patient who is a Pakistani Muslim, who, incidentally, only met me once:

Dear & sweet doctor ***,
Hope you are fine & healthy & enjoying
your job
at new place. Actually I called at clinic to talk to you & they told
me you
are not here now, sad I got late in calling. Anyway this is life, so
how is
your new place & how much you do like it.
I want to ask few things from you, if you have some time to write
me pls
tell me what do we write for medical graduates over here like MBBS os
something else, what do we call training after
graduation "Internship" or?
If you can tell me the phone no. or web site of kaplan centre. If you
are
too busy just don't bothere your self.
Have a very pleasant atmosphere at your new office & peace &
happiness
in your life.
Take care,

With love,
Nighat( From Pakistan, I met you at clinic for ultrasound)

Boy, I must have really fooled her. My reply:

What a pleasure to hear from you! I'm sorry I missed you on my last
day, but we will see each other again...I am also in the middle of moving out of my apartment, so give me a
few days and I'll e-mail you the information on preparing for the
National Medical Boards (NMB) and the Kaplan educational centers.

In answer to your question, the first year of specialty training
after medical school is called internship, and is required in order
to be allowed to sit for Part III of the NMB. Parts I and II are
required in order to start internship; passage of Part III is
required for licensure in all states, as far as I know. Licensure is
done by each state, and is not required to start residency
(interns are basically first-year residents), but some states, such
as California, require licensure by the third year.

I will e-mail you again by the middle of next week with the
information. I can also try to put you in touch with my Kashmiri
friends, who went through all of this a few years ago, if that would
be helpful and "politically correct."

Warmly,

How dare you imply that I would compromise the medical care I provide my patients based on politics? What I do is an incredible privilege; the oath that I took is, to me, the most sacred thing in my life. The trust my patients put in me is a precious gift--to treat it without the reverence it is due would be the most amoral act I can imagine. This, by the way, is what guides my practice of medicine:

"Almighty God, Thou has created the human body with infinite wisdom. Ten thousand times ten thousand organs hast Thou combined in it that act unceasingly and harmoniously to preserve the whole in all its beauty the body which is the envelope of the immortal soul. They are ever acting in perfect order, agreement and accord. Yet, when the frailty of matter or the unbridling of passions deranges this order or interrupts this accord, then forces clash and the body crumbles into the primal dust from which it came. Thou sendest to man diseases as beneficent messengers to foretell approaching danger and to urge him to avert it.

"Thou has blest Thine earth, Thy rivers and Thy mountains with healing substances; they enable Thy creatures to alleviate their sufferings and to heal their illnesses. Thou hast endowed man with the wisdom to relieve the suffering of his brother, to recognize his disorders, to extract the healing substances, to discover their powers and to prepare and to apply them to suit every ill. In Thine Eternal Providence Thou hast chosen me to watch over the life and health of Thy creatures. I am now about to apply myself to the duties of my profession. Support me, Almighty God, in these great labors that they may benefit mankind, for without Thy help not even the least thing will succeed.

"Inspire me with love for my art and for Thy creatures. Do not allow thirst for profit, ambition for renown and admiration, to interfere with my profession, for these are the enemies of truth and of love for mankind and they can lead astray in the great task of attending to the welfare of Thy creatures. Preserve the strength of my body and of my soul that they ever be ready to cheerfully help and support rich and poor, good and bad, enemy as well as friend. In the sufferer let me see only the human being. Illumine my mind that it recognize what presents itself and that it may comprehend what is absent or hidden. Let it not fail to see what is visible, but do not permit it to arrogate to itself the power to see what cannot be seen, for delicate and indefinite are the bounds of the great art of caring for the lives and health of Thy creatures. Let me never be absent- minded. May no strange thoughts divert my attention at the bedside of the sick, or disturb my mind in its silent labors, for great and sacred are the thoughtful deliberations required to preserve the lives and health of Thy creatures.

You have, by the way, not angered me: your suggestion smacks of such projection that you have sunk to an irretrievable ethical level in my eyes. I used to think you were a fairly bright guy with basically decent ethics and just one blind spot. In recent days, I have come to realize that your blind spot is far bigger than I'd first thought. Now I realize that you live in a moral sewer, coming up infrequently for breaths of fresh air.

What comes out of your mind disgusts me.

#92 - Zulubaby

As a (former?) SA local, you might have a different perspective of the era when Israel & S Africa found they were on the outs with the world, so they might have to do more business with each other. There were already links from the diamond biz, Metals& minerals extraction mining biz, and finance...between Israel and SA. SA had a large Jewish community, dwindled somewhat now. Their militaries were on a good basis.

Weapons, electronic security systems, and nuclear material & know-how was exchanged.

Israel was one of the handful of nations that did not boycott apartheid or make a pretense at the trading "Protocals" the Euros thought nobel. S Africa was disliked by the Muslims for trading with Israel. So I think by saying the stink of pariah hood rubbed off - perhaps a less pejorative way of saying it (since I think both countries pariah hood was unfair when there is and was far worse) - is that each picked up a little dislike directed formerly at one. By sharing their outcast lot, they also ended up sharing enemies.

You got it right, Donna. Most European criticism of the U.S. does come down to: "You're simplistic, you're cowboys, blah, blah, blah." Makes me sick.

Q, I have nothing against nudity, but Larry Clark makes brutal, semi-pornographic films and is a former heroin addict and convict (he went to jail for shooting a man). He does have balls, though.

mommydoc - you have chosen to make my critiques personal. I will from time to time defend myself as someone who has come to certain conclusions sincerely and who reflects mainstream American perceptions.

You typically start a thread slamming me, rather than my statement's accuracy. Then after your attack - the usual mommydoc boilerplate "you are insignificant, you are bad, you are bigoted" you say that you will never bother with such ad hominems again, since it is a waste of your time. Yet you keep coming back, sometimes continuing the slams arising from a dying thread where you didn't get your 2 cents in on - so you take it up elsewhere.

I - lack any measure - of your self-righteousness and emotionalism, mommydoc. It was marvelous posting the warm letter from a Muslim and your warm response. Good thing you didn't include some of your LGF thoughts, or dear Nighat might have changed her salutation With love,
Nighat( From Pakistan, I met you at clinic for ultrasound) if she knew that you posted words to the effect "Yes I agree, Muslims breed like rats".

Loved you posting your oath, you noble woman, you! Prepared to see the worst in others, prepared to see the best in yourself.

But I'll lay off any ad hominems directed you way if you see fit to control yourself emotionally and respond civilly. Debunk anything I say you disagree with, based on the facts, question the conclusions I reached. Otherwise, grab a pillow and pound it till you are tired before you rant (or see a patient!). It might help.

Israel was one of the handful of nations that did not boycott apartheid or make a pretense at the trading "Protocals" the Euros thought nobel.

do you have a link as to which countries did boycott South Africa...

as I remember the US did NOT

and neither did most African States...

Ranbutan (#99)

I don't remember Israel being lumped in with South Africa while the whole world was boycotting Apartheid, and comparing Israel to Apartheid South Africa is en vogue. This year is the first time I have ever heard the comparison made. I'm almost afraid to ask, but are you implying that Israel didn't boycott South Africa because it wasn't opposed to Apartheid?

Travel between Israel and South Africa is (I'm exaggerating slightly ;-) the equivalent of Los Angeles to Vegas. Shuttle service.

I have not ever heard that their militaries were on a "good basis", whatever that means. I've also never heard that Muslims didn't like South Africa. And if that's the case why are so many of them living there?

By sharing their outcast lot, they also ended up sharing enemies.

South Africa was hammered because of Apartheid, but since it's been over, who are South Africa's enemies?

I think that the strong ties between Israel and South Africa had more to do with the Jewish communities than with their governments being in bed together.

And the diamond business is not a straight line from South Africa to Israel. We ship 'em anywhere ;-)

Ranbutan is Lebanese or Pakistani.?

Ranbutan is an asian fruit; in this case, it's a screen name for Michael Kennedy, who apparently believes he can read minds, mine, anyway.

Re: #100

Guess we disagree about the merits of pornography. ;-)

As for the "brutality": also a morally neutral category in art. He has a right to tell his stories using any means he deems necessary.

ah...

are we supposed to know Michael Kennedy.?

Q

merits of pornography..??

provides a 'quick start'...?..are you a senior citizen..?

and brutality is morally neutral...

but bad taste is a crime...

wonderful...

Ranbutan, I know what mommydoc does when she is not posting to LGF. What do you do?

Incidentally, evrything that you accused her of in your post, you did in your response.

I take her posting of the oath that guides her practice as not evidence of self-righteousness, but rather a commitment to doing what she does well. Did you note the provision to treat even enemies? I suspect that in an emergency, she would probably treat you.

The next time that I have a day or so to respond to specific faults that I find in your facts, your conclusions, and your zeitgeist, I'll try to give you my two shekels worth.

Re: #108

The things and notions that are hypocritically called "vices" are merely the innate components of being human. Pornography - both "real" and Savonarolian - is one of those components.

Not the brutality itself, but the portrayal of brutality in art is morally neutral - just as one can make an argument for art in general being morally neutral (I wouldn't go as far). It's the context and the end result that count.

but bad taste is a crime...

Where the fuck did I say that? No, it's just bad taste. What is the relevance of that point, anyway?

#100 Squiddy:

Larry Clark films:
Gummo; Kids; Ken Park

I've not seen Ken Park, of course, but I've seen the other two and yes, they are brutal, but NOT UNTRUE. Gummo is exactly what it's like in some trailer park poor white areas with the rundown houses and the rundown people; and 'Kid'--people just didn't want to admit their own kids were doing drugs and having sex so young. He held a mirror up that most parents didn't want to look into but a lot of them were wearing shades so they didn't have to know. I think there's one more film I saw about a murder amongst teen in Florida but I can't remember the name of it and it was really true to life. Teen kids today unless they've been closely, closely supervised, are getting into stuff never dreamed of when I was growing up.

And to be honest anyone 'who used to do cocaine' or 'heroin' or anything, even cigarettes, has my blessing. It's not easy to quit. So he's been a rounder but he makes darned good films--very verite and he stuck up for the US when it counted. What's the problem?

Re: #111

Actually, Gummo was filmed not byt Clark, byt by the Kids' screenwriter, Harmony Corine. I think he has since descended into the pretentious and pointless Dogme 95 bullshit.

The Florida film you refer to is called Bully. It is based on real events, although Clark took some libeties with the material. Nevertheless, the film is quite powerful.

Elizabeth, I thought Kids was way overrated. It may have been a realistic portrayal of the lives of some kids, but that doesn't make it a good film. One could also film a day in the life of a bunch of well-behaved middle-class kids and that wouldn't necessarily be art. I think there is a fine line between responsible and irresponsible portrayal of movie violence, and I think Clark is often on the latter side of the line.
I don't hold his past drug addiction against him, but I do feel he hasn't really transcended his tawdry past; he may have moved beyond it by becoming an artist, but he still revels amorally in the lower spheres of existence too much for me to respect him as such.
That said, I was very pleased to read that Post article about him thrashing his weenie Scottish producer, which is why I posted it.

Ranbutan writes (post #81): Arafat=Black September=Munich??? I am unaware of the little toad's fingerprints on that one.

Read this, Ranbutan, and then you'll be more aware: [Link: 216.239.51.100...]

As a matter of fact, I thought Kids was a mediocre excercise, too. My "defence" of Clark is based more on the matter of general principle: that is, the inapplicability of moralistic (not moral) criteria to art. Kids is aesthetically unvaible, the amount of skin Clark showed (or didn't) has nothing to do with it.

#114 blogaddict: Thanks for the info on Arafat's connection to the Munich massacre.
For what it's worth, here is what Arafat's biographer Said K. Aburish wrote about the birth of the Black September Movement (in the book Arafat, from Defender to Dictator). "Moderate Khalid Al Hassan, who had acted as de facto foreign affairs spokesman for the PLO was firmly opposed to the use of terror tactics. Arguing against him were Abu Iyad, Abu Jihad, Kamal Adwan, Ali Hassan Salameh (Abu Hassan), George Habbash of the PFLP and the DFLP representatives. Arafat straddled the fence but was dead set against any such acts taking place under the name of the PLO. In fact, except for suggesting the use of a new name, the final decision to create the Black September Movement was carried without his vote." Deception and creating deniability have been hallmarks of Arafat's modus operandi as the terrorists' godfather, handler, financial supporter, etc. A word that describes so much of his career in terrorism, and in all things, is "liar".

I should mention that the biographer of Arafat, Said K. Aburish, is a Palestinian journalist.

One: They hate our success, our power, our strength.

Rather simplistic.

It's more likely they hate what your success is doing to their culture, their industry, their people ... here in my country we have our own tv/film industry, but since we only have a population of some 16-18 million it can only support just so much. Meanwhile in another country, which because it has a much larger population, is able to churn out seemingly endless high-production-value-but-otherwise-crappy product. Our TV stations have a choice -- finance a local production for a smaller market (ie. expensive, lower returns), or buy some overseas crap instead.

And so, slowly, your cultural imperialism stifles and kills our culture. Most Americans are blind to this though, thinking instead that foreigners just plain hate you for being "better".

Also, how do you think the 2 billion in military aid to Israel is used? It is used to purchase armaments from the US. It is a method of channeling money to the US arms industry and simultaneously supporting an ally.

The problem with this, IIRC, is that the aid money is given on the condition it not be used for military purchases. Israel breaches the conditions, the US looks the otherway. The supposed conditions on the aid is a convenient fiction.

Ashweela--No one is forcing you or anyone in India or wherever the hell you're talking about to watch Hollywood films. It's a choice you make. That's hardly cultural imperialism, any more than the fact that the Japanese make more affordable steel than we do, so we import it, is metallic imperialism.

The military aid given to Israel carries no condition that it not be used for military purposes--that doesn't even make sense. If there are conditions, they are that Israel not start a war. And, so far, Israel has only fought defensive wars, because she was forced to.

Interesting interview with Chris Patten, here:

[Link: www.spectator.co.uk...]

Oh come on, the explanation is so obvious.

1. Chris Patten is an English male.

2. The most fervent wet-dream of English males is to be buggered by a gang of Arabs.

3. Therefore, Chris Patten doesn't want to piss off any of his potential buggerers thereby precluding any future gang-buggerings.

Simple when you think about it.

I think if you look at Europe impartially, the only explanation is they simply hate Jews.

I mean, look at the Pakistani-Indian conflict.

India frequently shells Pakistan with artillery and kills civilians (and vice-versa). But India is far less picky about it's targets than Israel. And England is full of Indian and Pakistani immigrants. Yet you never really hear anything bad said about India (or Pakistan) in the UK press.

Israel does something, and they're all over the papers. Even the supposedly 'conservative' papers, like the Telegraph and the Times and the Spectator.

I can give a lot more examples, but Israel is the only one singled out by Europeans for condemnation.

There is no other explanation to me other than Europeans hate jews, and enjoy seeing them murdered.

I sympathize with the Palestinians in a vague way (they either need a country, or have some other country take them in - not just live their lives as non-citizens of any country), and not being a Jewish or a Marxist, I'm not much of a fan of Israel in general (I can't believe it has communes! Bah) - but it's basically a no-brainer - deliberately targetting civilians is just plain wrong, no matter what. To condone it, much less pay for it, is wrong.

I know, the Eu-niks say that Israel also targets civilians, but most seem like accidents. And anyone with even half a brain could see that if Israel really wanted to kill Palestinian civilians, there would be none left. They'd never do that, but they could kill them all if they wanted to. Pretty easily, too. Israel takes most of it's military casualties from not being ruthless enough.

I remember reading something written by a US commander in WW2, about invading Germany. If a german village would surrender, fine. But if they didn't, he'd flatten it, and move on to the next town.

Ashweela (#118)

And so, slowly, your cultural imperialism stifles and kills our culture. Most Americans are blind to this though, thinking instead that foreigners just plain hate you for being "better".

Most Americans don't give a crap about whether you watch their movies or not. Most Americans aren't keeping tabs on which countries are buying their movies. And why is the Americans' fault that your TV stations are buying their "crap"?

You know what you sound like? You sound like you hate our success, our power, our strength.

And of course, Israel has to be dragged into everything, doesn't it? How did you get from America's "cultural imperialism" to Israel? And let's not talk about breaching conditions. Ask Arafat the time and he'll lie about it.

Peter Watt

Interesting how he doesnt allow reality to interfere with his agenda...

But it’s true that you’ve given money to shore up a regime that actively teaches the hatred of Jews.

‘We support teaching programmes in Palestinian schools which try to encourage kids to take a moderate view of life, and then they come out of school and they see a bloody great Israeli tank come down the road. Did you see the figures the other day for the number of Palestinian kids who’ve been shot during curfews?

as far as Patton is concerned...the following, typical of PA 'education' is what he considers moderate...

Mustafa Murad al-Dabbagh, who fled from Jaffa in 1948, published an encyclopedia entitled "Our Country, Palestine" of which the first volume came out in Beirut in 1964. In the paragraphs immediately following the passage from the introduction to Volume I, one can find the following sentences:

"… the Jewish claim to historical rights to Palestine has no justification, it is a deceitful and disproved claim with no parallel in history, it is a blatant lie … they [the Arabs] have resided in it [Palestine] since the dawn of the land's history, before there were Jews in the world … The Jews entered our homeland and left it just as other transient nations have entered and left it" (p. 8) "The Arabs, and not the Jews, are those who have the connection [to the land]. The return of the Jews to Palestine and permitting them to establish a Jewish State contradicts history" (p. 9).

...for more "moderate" education supported and paid for by the EU...

[Link: www.edume.org...]

#110 Q

I had a well thought out response to you, about being human, and art etc...(Art Hist major here)

and I accidentally hit a key on the keyboard, and it disappeared...and im too tired to think it out again...

I know you didnt say, bad taste is a crime...

I guess that was my comment on what often passes for 'art'...and art criticism...

The Spectator interview is by Boris Johnson. Boris Johnson is an influential British journalist, editor, and Conservative MP. Johnson says that Patten is "much admired by those, such as this writer, who don’t always agree with him".

Do LGFers think that the British elite are as gone as the European elite? Then the U.S. really is on its own.

Or is there more to the not only thoughtless and amoral, but totally pathetic, this loathsome reptile, this evil piece of garbage Patten than the picture painted at LGF?

#122 Jeremy sez:

Israel is the only one singled out by Europeans for condemnation.

There is no other explanation to me other than Europeans hate jews, and enjoy seeing them murdered.

As previously noted on LGF, Charles Jacobs has argued that not all who single out Israel for criticism are antisemitic. Some folks are unwilling to judge the actions of third-world groups by the same standards they apply to first world groups, whether because of bigotry (they're savages, what do you expect?) or multi-culti moral relativism (we can't judge their actions by our standards). The Boston Globe has moved his Op-Ed piece into its PPV archives, but it's reprinted here.

Jacobs' perspecitive is one of frustration at the inability to focus the attention of the West on the atrocities in the Sudan. His point, as I take it, is that while the singling out of Israel is despicable and morally indefensible, there are a number of possible explanations for it, and they may vary from person to person.

IMO, it's a worthwhile argument, even if deep down I believe that antisemitism is a driving force, because it can help anti-Israel activists who are not consciously antisemitic to rethink their positions. Naturally, you will find much wisdom on the topic on the LGF thread, as well as much OT wisdom.

I note the opening piece by Charles and certainly agree that if EU money is being used to fund terrorist activity this should be condemned. However this is not proven.

I do know, though, that a Palestinian runway built using EU funds was dug up earlier this year by the Israeli army. This action was provocative and unacceptable. The EU should call on Sharon's government to account for its actions and demand recompense.

#124 ploome 11/12/2002 12:07AM PST

I agree that this piece of writing from Mustafa Murad al-Dabbagh is inane nonsense. Its equally inane to believe that that Isreal/Palestine is the sole domain of the Jews as it was granted by "God" to a bunch of shepherds 3000 years ago.

It seems more convincing to propose that as Arabs and Jews both come from the Semite racial group, that they both come from this land and are in fact the same group of people. The main difference today is brought about by the peculiarities (I use the word in both senses) of their religious beliefs.

Corel--

Semites is a linguistic group, not racial.

Ben F

Not correct. It is a racial group formed by caucasoid people who speak a semitic tongue and legend has it that they are descended from Shem.

The EU should call on Sharon's government to account for its actions and demand recompense.

As Shimon Peres said (and just about the only smart thing he's said in years) to the EU commisars a few weeks ago, when they stated they wanted to rebuild the homes demolished by Israel:

" And why not rebuild the exploded buses for us, and bring the dead back to life "

Mr. Corel, take a hike.

Ashweela,

Feeling victimized by your own weakenesses for American popular culture? You society's failures are always someone elses fault, right? The British ruined India, America ruins it today, blah, blah, blah, yawn . . .

Grow some backbone!

Mommydoc,

Ranbutan said:

control of critical institutions or undue influence on those institutions - by a small group...Besides Jewish concentration, I would not like it to find the Biltbergers running things in all agribiz, wake up to the discover the Family Courts were largely in the hands of feminist attorneys, or find that the whole banking system was in the hands of Skull&Crossbones alumni, or our entire telecomm industry was in the hands of Chinese-Americans who had deep ties to the "Mother Country".

He's finally outed himslef as a jew-hater. He starts off the above paragraph with the equivalent of 'some of my best friends are Jewish' type crap, and then starts talking about 'concentration' of influence in jewish hands, trying to whitewash it with comparisons to other 'groups' he wouldn't want to see dominating other spheres, but none of the other groups he examples are religious or ethnic, with the exception of the chinese, where he raises the possibility of allegiance to a foreign power.

So the jews are not to be trusted if they have concentrated influence because of the possibility of dubious loyalty.

Protocols of the Elders of Zion, anyone?

Ranbutan is disgusting, and not worthy of your time and effort. As regards your medical practice, he knows nothing of what it means to be a professional. That was a personal attack on you, completely unwarranted . . .

Corel—We will probably have to agree to disagree on this one, but see here and here.

Corel:

Define race. Do you know what you're talking about?

Corel #128,

I note the opening piece by Charles and certainly agree that if EU money is being used to fund terrorist activity this should be condemned. However this is not proven.

Actually, it has been proven, and known for a really long time. Die Ziet has shown that the EU funds paleostinian terror. You might note the following:

For evidence, Sharon presents documents that his troops confiscated from Arafat's administration centers in Ramallah and elsewhere in the West Bank. The volume contains serious allegations: that "Arafat and his people used the donations of other countries, including the EU, to finance their terrorism".

The article goes on to show how AraRat confiscated EU money and used it for such peaceful projects as hatred-inciting TV, hatred-inciting schoolbooks, the Karine A, and various explosives.

And here's the money quote:

It's always been up to the Palestinians to monitor themselves, that is to say not at all.

And you dare to discuss the tearing up of an airport runway!?! Particularly when it is a known fact that that runway was used to smuggle in explosives from Egypt and other countries.

#131 Corel

Arabs come from the Arabian penninsula, Yemen, and probably originated in Somalia, Etheopia area

Jews are genetically linked to Armenians and Kurds...

google to find DNA results of studies done...

the Bible actually says Abraham came from Haran...northern Syria I think...

Corel doesn't know what a race is, but he knows a semite when he sees one ;)

Peter Watt

Boris Johnson may be amongst the "elite", but he is pretty barmy.

I don't understand your point. Admiration for someone's distinguished career is hardly a sign of weakness. Patten has been an MP, EU MP, Governor of Hong Kong and is now a Commisioner in the EU.

That is a distinguished collection of titles if ever I saw one.

Jewish genetics is interesting from a historical viewpoint, but doesn't have much to do with nationalism in the Middle East, for several reasons.

Although children of Jewish mothers are automatically Jewish and for centuries we did not intermarry much (in many countries we were forbidden to), anyone who converts to Judaism is considered fully a Jew, so the Jewish community has always been a mix.

However, the Jewish relationship with Israel is based on peoplehood, not race. Jews are a people who continued to live in and have a strong connection with their ancestral homeland even after it was destroyed as a nation. That connection has never ceased for 2000 years, which is why it was possible to revive Hebrew as the national language: it continued to be spoken and written in.

No one has ever answered this question: What criteria qualify Palestinians (or any other self-identified national group) for a state that don't at the same time qualify Jews?

PS. This is a pretty comprehensive summary of the research on Jewish genetics. Researchers identified the gene for the hereditary priesthood going back to a common ancestor in the Near East, with some surprising offshoots.

#114 Blogaddict, #116 EE

Arafat=Black September=Munich?

It appears the question mark still applies. We all know Arafat is a lying, murderous toad. But the thread of evidence to Munich evidently rests on some individuals now emerging 25 years after the fact. The question still stands.

Arafat might have thought Black September was a good thing. Did he have a direct role in its creation? No. Is there evidence that he knew of the Munich target, approved of it? No. Did he condemn it afterwards? Yes.

Did he secretly love it? Even dance a little jig to celebrate the Israeli athletes death?

Maybe.

All of which assumes that you're not making a joke, of course.

Yes, I was making a joke.

yehudit...

[Link: dna6.com...]

Enter text to quote. However in an analysis that included additional ~700 chromosomes of other Middle Eastern populations, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors. Our study demonstrates that Y chromosome pools of Middle Eastern populations are ancient and are very different from those of Europeans. Major population growth and expansion were dated to the Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods. A group of closely related lineage’s was found exclusively in Arabs and was therefore termed ‘Arab cluster’ Y-chromosomes. Remarkable, these ‘Arab cluster’ chromosomes were recently reported in North African populations, suggesting gene flow during the Arab expansion from the Arabian Peninsula, which occurred over the last two millennia both northward to the Levant and westward via Egypt to North Africa.

[Link: www.barzan.com...]

. In the article in the November 2001 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University of Israel wrote that this new study revealed that Jews have a closer genetic relationship to populations in the northern Mediterranean (Kurds, Anatolian Turks, and Armenians) than to populations in the southern Mediterranean (Arabs and Bedouins).

[Link: www.ubalt.edu...]

Kurdish Jews and North African Jews are very closely related in their paternal lineages.

Kurdish Jews and North African Jews are less related to Ashkenazic Jews; the differences between the Sephardic/Oriental and Ashkenazic Jewish groups are described in the abstract as slight yet significant.

Ashkenazic Jews, while related to other Jewish groups, might also have a certain amount of European ancestry.

Jews are more closely related to Armenians, Kurds, and Anatolian Turks than to their Arab neighbors.

The haplogroup Eu 9 derived from northern Middle Easterners, while the haplogroup Eu 10 derived from more southerly Middle Easterners.

Palestinian Arabs and Bedouins often belong to Eu 10 and could have substantial ancestry from the Arabian Peninsula.

Zulubaby - some excerpts from a standard history:

Israel

Relations with African States

Until the early 1970s, Israel sent hundreds of agricultural experts and technicians to aid in developing newly independent sub-Saharan African states, seeking diplomatic relations in return. The Arab countries, however, exerted pressure on such states to break ties with Israel. Most African states eventually complied with this pressure because of their need for Arab oil at concessionary prices and because of Arab promises of financial aid. Furthermore, Israel received heavy criticism from African nations because of its relations with South Africa. ...

Israel has also had a longstanding interest in South Africa because of its approximately 110,000 Jews and 15,000 Israelis. Israeli leaders justified trade with South Africa on the ground that it offered protection for the South African Jewish community and developed export markets for Israel's defense and commercial industries...
Israel has traditionally opposed international trade embargoes as a result of its own vulnerability at the hands of the UN and Third World-dominated bodies. In 1987, however, Israel took steps to reduce its military ties with South Africa so as to bring its policies in line with those of the United States and Western Europe, which had imposed limited trade, diplomatic, and travel sanctions on South Africa. A four-point plan to ban military sales contracts with South Africa (Israel's arms trade with South Africa was reportedly between US$400 and US$800 million a year); to condemn apartheid, which Peres characterized as "a policy totally rejected by all human beings;" to reduce cultural and tourist ties to a minimum; and to appoint an official committee to draft a detailed list of economic sanctions in line with those of the United States and other Western nations. The cabinet also announced its decision to establish an educational foundation for South African blacks and people of mixed race in Israel.
***
However, zulubaby, the discovery that Israel maintained secret military sales well into the 90's to SA did tick Africa off. Most African nations buy into the Arab argument that zionism=colonialism, apartheid exists on the West Bank, and current Israeli proposals to franment the West Bank amount to the creation of Bantustans. The growing Apartheid boycott of Israel over the Settlements appeals, it seems, to the Africans, as too the boycott of US businesses in protest of the US bias towards Israel. Below is a link to a statement by black S. Africans, the usual Leftie radicals in SA, and Pals in SA.

***

[Link: psc.za.org...]

Maine's Michael--thank you both for the validation and the support. It means a lot.

Maines Michael referring to Moi-

"then starts talking about 'concentration' of influence in jewish hands, trying to whitewash it with comparisons to other 'groups' he wouldn't want to see dominating other spheres, but none of the other groups he examples are religious or ethnic, with the exception of the chinese, where he raises the possibility of allegiance to a foreign power."

Elite Wasps aren't ethnic??

Lets add some in -

1. Open concern about the FBI having a non-inclusive culture that appears to have an excess of Mormon/Catholics from BYU, Notre Dame, and Fordham graduates. Open commentary because that is safe.

2. Criticism in the past that the Congress was too much in the hands of Southern Protestants with gobs of seniority. As well as criticism that inner city blacks with effectively lifetime sinecures are poised to take over 5 key committees if the Dems were to take the House, which experts thought would alter the path of the House tremendously.

3. Liberals & feminists expressing concern that Bush might appoint Christian fundamentalists to the Supreme Court or Appeals courts...Chuck Schumer openly states that any such Christian would fail his "litmus test". Not even inordinant power - any Christian fundamentalists in any position. Contrast that with the religion-free treatment Breyer & Ginzburg got.

4. Muslims obviously. A question about who they are ultimately loyal to...America, or the religion and mother countrie(s) they care so much about.

5. People holding dual citizenship. The matter of dual loyalties can never be completely dispensed with because no two nations have identical interests. Assurances that no problem exists because both nations "see eye to eye on everything" are false and disingenuous. It usually takes crunch time or a clear pattern of supporting policies that benefit one nation, damage the other. In WWII, 6,000 of the 40,000 Issei interned refused to renounce their allegiance to the Supreme Wartime Commander Hirohito to declare for the US, despite having US citizen children, and being legal US residents for 3-6 decades. Most were deported.

So, Maines Michael...my pro-American sentiments...that question undue influnce or worry about loyalty are disgusting? To me, what is disgusting is when someone like Johnathan Pollard betrays one country he was supposedly loyal to to transfer highly classified intel to the country he was more loyal to, which somehow shared it with some Soviets...then the Israeli lobby has the nerve to petition Clinton for a pardon or release to Israel. Thousands of American people signed petitions saying Pollard shouldn't be behind bars because he was a benefit to Israel. Now thats disgusting!

Aha--finally, the root cause. Strong work Michael. Now it makes sense. Some important links:

The Israeli governments's position on Pollard, who was not working for the Mossad or Miltary Intelligence, and without the authorization of the Israeli government. Note that his sentence is

His life sentence was the most severe prison term ever given for spying for an ally. It also was far greater than the average term imposed for spying for the Soviet Union and other enemies of the United States.4

And a dissenting view.

Personally, I feel that he's a spy, his actions were unconscionable, but that his sentence was overly harsh. I believe in that sense that he was being made an example of precisely because he was Jewish and it was for Israel. And that might be reasonable, unfortunately. I'd rather see him stripped of his US citizenship and permanently deported to Israel, however, where maybe he can do some good.

So, Maines Michael...my pro-American sentiments...that question undue influnce or worry about loyalty are disgusting?

Being pro-american means being pro-meritocracy. Your innuendo laden coments suggest that you might support quotas, perhaps, to keep jews from 'concentrating' in elite decision making bodies? There is no other conclusion. How else to keep those persistant, clever jews from 'concentrating' their influence?

This country is meant to be a meritocracy, and more than any nation on earth, it mostly is. If you can't keep up, get out of the way. Raising the bogeyman of questionable loyalty among any one group is the weakling's way out.

Your rationales and examples ring hollow. Pollard shouldn't have done what he did, but spies are a fact of life. Proportional to the number of jews or people of jewish origin in senior positions in american defense/administration over the last 40 years, there have been a disproportionately SMALL number of jewish spies. Rosenbergs and Pollard. That's it.

From the developers of the atom and hydrogen bombs, to National Security Advisors, Secretaries of State, Ministers of Defense, and countless less visible contributions, you DARE to question jewish loyalty, you insect? You dare hide behind the flag?

Shame on you.

You're outed, as far as I'm concerned. The jig is up.

#140 Ranbutan
Presumably the PLO meeting to discuss the formation of wht came to be called the Black September Movement was called into session by the Chairman. Who else would call the meeting?
According to Arafat's Palestinian biographer Aburish, the Chairman straddled the fence. So he did nothing to oppose the creation of Black September, but let the blame for its creation fall on his colleagues. Typical.
Abu Daoud, a leader of Black September, wrote that the Chairman was briefed on the planning for Munich by Arafat's top aide Abu Iyad. Daoud wrote that Arafat and two other men saw him off on the mission with the words "Allah protect you."
Either Arafat is lying or Abu Daoud is lying.
I am no fan of either of these killers, Arafat or Abu Daoud. But if one of these is lying, I would want to think of their reputations regarding truth-telling. The Chairman has a reputation for lying about everything -- even where he was born. (He was born in Egypt, but tells the Palestinians he was born in Palestine.) He got to the top by fabricating stories about his victorious exploits against the Israelis. His biographer calls Arafat a "chameleon". You get the feeling from Arafat's history that here is the Master of the Lie. Abu Daoud, like Arafat, is also a terrorist, but doesn't have the same lying reputation that the Chairman has.
Someone is lying: Arafat or Abu Daoud.

In post #140 Ranbutan writes, on the subject of Arafat's complicity in the 1972 Olympic Massacre: "It appears the question mark still applies. We all know Arafat is a lying, murderous toad. But the thread of evidence to Munich evidently rests on some individuals now emerging 25 years after the fact. The question still stands."

Of course the question still stands. It will always stand. And of course it rests these individuals; what else could it rest on? They are, after all, the only surviving co-conspirators. I doubt there will ever be a smoking gun that implicates Arafat in a way so unequivocal as to convince those who don't want to believe. After all, he's not about to confess, and, short of that, what would constitute proof positive? If Arafat was part of the planning process, do you think he'd leave clear evidence ("fingerprints") of that fact? No; no more than Hitler left evidence of the fact that he ordered the Final Solution.

But the fact that Daoud (about whose guilt there is little doubt) specifically fingers Arafat is certainly enough to constitute strong evidence of what I'd call "Arafat's fingerprints" in both the planning of the operation and selection of the target. Since you refer to Arafat as "a lying, murderous toad," I wonder why you are so reluctant to conclude that he was involved.

Here are some of the specific quotes, and the websites from which they are lifted:

[Link: 216.239.39.100...]
Daoud writes that Arafat had been briefed on the planning for Munich by his PLO number two, Abu Iyad (Salah Khalaf), who was subsequently assassinated by another Palestinian group. He says Arafat and two other men saw him off on the mission with the words, "Allah protect you."

[Link: 216.239.39.100...] Palestinian guerrilla group, The Black September Organization (BSO), claimed responsibility for the killing of the eleven Israeli's in Munich. The Fatah originated in 1957 and boasted an estimated membership of over 11,000 by the late 1980's. The United States Department of State's 1988 publication of Terrorist Group Profiles, describes the Fatah as the military arm of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). Fatah is an acronym spelled backwards representing Harakat al-Tahrir al Filistini. The phrase translates as Palestine Liberation Movement. Former Fatah leader Yasir Arafat (Abu Ammar) assumed leadership of the PLO in 1969. The Fatah utilized the name Black September Organization from approximately 1971 to 1974. Some sources speculate that Arafat utilized the name to distance himself and the PLO from the actions of the BSO. Many terrorist experts speculate that Arafat controlled the BSO and utilized it as his primary military force. Arafat attempted to keep the association at arm's length to provide a factor of plausible deniability. Black September represents the results of the culmination of tensions between the Fatah and the Jordanian government. In September 1970, King Hussein's military forced the group out of Jordan and into Lebanon.

[Link: www.abc.net.au...]
In 1999, Black September commander Abu Daud admitted to masterminding the operation. He told the Tunisian newspaper Assabah the hostage-taking had been intended to "draw attention to the Palestinian cause".

Abu Daud claimed in the Academy Award-winning documentary One Day in September the attack had been planned with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's explicit knowledge.

RE #128 - Corel

a Palestinian runway built using EU funds was dug up earlier this year by the Israeli army. This action was provocative and unacceptable.

It was horrible man!!!

there were pieces of Asphalt all over the place!!!

Those jews are evil, heartless people I tell ya! Nazies!!!

[*snif*,*snif*]

Ranbutan (#143)

I'm not aware of too many things,
I know what I know if you know what I mean.

#138 Colt

I was trying to reconcile my respect for barmy Boris Johnson with the abusive language used on this site to describe Patten. Cognitive dissonance ensues.

Either posters here have a distorted, inappropriate contempt for Patten, or Boris has lost the plot. I was hoping for someone who understood the situation to fill me in.

I know this thread is old, but just in case some are still visiting and updating - Ranbutan, dude, you are one SCARY guy! Too many Catholics in the FBI, too many "inner city blacks" in safe seats in Congress, too many J*E*W*S in foreign policy and intelligence (questionable loyalty, there!). Let's see - too many Native Americans on the reservations? Too many Irish cops in Boston? How about too many Christians in church on a Sunday morning?

You are one SICK FUCK!

Is there a religion, race or ethnicity you DON'T despise???

Wow! So much thought put into words on this subject, yet with all of the distractions involved,barely a mention of the US $ also flowing into Arafat's coffers. Why single out the EU just because some idiot spoke out when there is billions of American taxpayers' "money for peace" dollars in Swiss accounts at the Chairman's fingertips? When will the people of the world, (and Europe in particular) learn that the only tender for peace is blood?

Gary O'Brien, well said, indeed. We need to cut off the flow of danegeld to Mr. Arafat and his thugs, NOW. Since I've already "outed" myself as a closet Kipling lover, here is Rudyard's take on "Dane-Geld":

It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say: --
"We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."

And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!

It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: --
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --

"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!"