Absolutely sickening.

Talk all you want about the Religion of Peace. Talk all you want about the Palestinian desire for Peace. Talk all you want about Arafat, and his Nobel Peace Prize. Talk all you want about the supposed brutality of the IDF against the Palestinian People.

Until the Palestinian People, the leaders of the Palestinian People, the religious leaders of the Palestinian People, and the rest of the world speak out in one loud constant voice against these actions - until all of the people stand up, and take action against the filth that conducts these murders - there should be no restraint asked of any nation and or peoples who fight this terror.

It just goes to show you...

Saddam Hussein is bravely willing to fight, to the very last Palestinian.

Athos,

"the Palestinian people"? You're too kind, mate.

People of Israel, stop being so damned nice to the palestinian arabs. It's an all-out war. Grant Arafat his wish.

Hardly opened my eyes this morning and I was already mourning.

Athos #1 wrote -

Until the Palestinian People, the leaders of the Palestinian People, the religious leaders of the Palestinian People, and the rest of the world speak out in one loud constant voice against these actions - until all of the people stand up, and take action against the filth that conducts these murders - there should be no restraint asked of any nation and or peoples who fight this terror.

you must be living in a dream or something

These fucking cave men.

They start going after little kids, it's time to take the gloves all the way off.

Israel need to start leveling entire Paleo-areas. A new area for each terror attack. Fuck the UN.

Disgusting.

#4 Dutch Guy

I'm right behind ya, why in hell doesn't Israel just start shelling, say the Gaza Strip, from one end to the other. OK, do it nice and slow so those who want to fight and die in a real war can stay, the others can go to Egypt.

Oh, yeah, just kill Ararat.

My condolences to the families of the victims, and my prayers to the families of the injured.

This is beyond sick...targeting kids...sick sick sick!!

Israel's gotta take back Beit-Lechem...now...no more deaths from Fuad's "Bethlehem/Hebron/Gaza First" plans...

And speaking of evil...Barghouti's trial resumes today...

They start going after little kids, it's time to take the gloves all the way off.

They've been going after little kids for quite some time (ice cream parlors, a kindergarden at the beginning of the intifada, etc)

The longer the delay in response to these acts the lower the deterrence factor. Screw "faster please" - NOW!

And yet.. the Labor party wants to "talk under fire" .. so frustrating that Arabs know how fragile Israeli politics is.

Transfer. At gunpoint. 48 hours notice. No quarter, no mercy. And a nice daisy cutter for Arafat, his cabinet and the disgusting leaders of Hamas. If the paleo proletariat is willing to live with the myth that they elected and selected Arafat, then they are equally guilty, to a man, woman and child.

Hey, they made up the rules. Payback time is long overdue. Sometimes you need to scorch the earth to encourage healthier growth.

Genocide? Nope. They're welcome to leave, and there are plenty more Arabs where they came from.

I am crying my eyes out.

This is what really got to me:

One witness, a 20-year-old man, said he believed a number of children on their way to school were among the casualties because he heard survivors shout "Mamma, Mamma" from the twisted wreckage.

And their sandwiches and schoolbooks lying on the street. They're just kids. How does someone get onto a bus and see children and still do this? How? This is so terrible. I don't even have words for this. They're just children.

Bless Fox News for calling it homicide bombing.

yeah, i realized right after I sent that that this is not exactly the first time they've targeted kids. Sigh.

I'm sorry, these people are not acting like human beings, and therefore they forfeit the right to be treated like human beings. Human beings have empathy. They have none. ISLAMOBORGS.

#5 - Living in a dream? Unfortunately not. I don't expect them to take a stand against these actions. I don't expect the EU or others to do anything. I don't expect anything different than after the other hundreds of bombings and attacks that took place against Israeli civilians.

But what most people don't realize is that if you don't take a stand against these actions, you condone the actions...and what happens after that is entirely deserved.

It is time to take a stand against the filth that condone and support these attacks.

And their sandwiches and schoolbooks lying on the street. They're just kids. How does someone get onto a bus and see children and still do this? How? This is so terrible. I don't even have words for this. They're just children

- they learned to be cold-blooded child murderers from the Nazis

sick sick sick

They do it, zulubaby, because they are absolutely incapable of empathy. The element of humanity is systematically expunged from their psyches from an early age, and it is now multigenerational. It's like a pandemic of antisocial personality disorder, teetering on the edge of criminal insanity.

They are humans who have become disconnected from their humanity. All of them? Maybe not, but a vast majority of them, at this point, and many times over the limit of what is remotely safe for Israel.

They must be contained, removed to a safe distance, or destroyed.

#12 - Islamoborg? Nope. Too nice.

IslamoNazis.

IslamoKlingons.

or just the plain, jane, Murdering Bastards.

#10 mommydoc

No, no, no transfer mommydoc. Just cordon and search the whole Gaza Strip, no notice. If IDF draws fire then pull back and level that sector with artillery, move back on, rinse, repeat as needed until the entire Strip has been cleared.

This will take time, maybe weeks, and people may avoid action by not firing on the IDF, or they may head for Egypt as refugees.

And yeah, kill ararat.

Any mouthpieces for the pals, kill them as well. Any tips (even from the drunk in the alley), level the area in a 100 meter radius.

Debka:Hospitals report unfamiliar types of burns suffered by Israeli victims of Jerusalem bus bombing Thursday. Palestinian terrorist suspected of using new type of explosive which exacerbates injuries.

I am crying my eyes out.

I know what you mean.. I'm not doing too well myself.. but I keep fluctuating between extreme sadness and extreme rage

My mind keeps shifting from the thought of the upcoming funerals, the lives of poor little children whose lives have been changed forever as they suffer serious physical trauma, families torn apart, pictures of the bus, imagining the sounds of horrer coming from the bus ... to these raging, maniacal mother@#%#s cheering and dancing in the street at the death and havoc they've created.

Damn them.

SecHumanist,

I'm not at the extreme rage point yet. I hate to say it but the children screaming for their mothers immediately made me think of Auschwitz. I can't get that out of my head.

And the sandwiches. And the schoolbooks.

Israel is dancing to the tune played by, first and foremost, the United States, backed by the band, EU. While the diplomats dither, children die. Everytime they open their collective maw, and speak of "peace", children die. The whole bunch is dripping in the blood of innocents, from Rwanda to Israel, from Zimbabwah to Kashmir, to Iraq, Iran and North Korea.

How did we get to the point where some third-rate intellectual from a third-world country deigns to tell us what our national priorities ought to consist of? How did we get to the point where a Swedish bureaucrat determines something as important as whether a known butcher has any knives? Are they concerned about American interests?

Do any of these people give a damn about the things they profess to believe? The louder they screech "brotherhood and tolerance," the louder the explosions. Only an idiot - literally an idiot - could claim that the stated goals are being met. By what standard do they judge the efficacy of their premises? How many mass graves will be allowed until they acknowledge that their way of doing things, not only isn't working, but is evil? Are they blind that they don't see the death and devastation brought about by their policies?

It is dishonest. They are not innocent.

It is time for the US to stand with those who see and acknowledge reality and the justice it is exacting upon a world. We must cease to tolerate those who, by their words and actions, put themselves beyond civilized consideration. We must cease to tolerate those who refuse to respect the sanctity of life. It is because we place the highest value on the life of the individual, that we must not tolerate those who do not. And when such an attitude manifests itself in action on a massive scale, it requires massive retaliation, such that generations will pass before the lesson is forgotten (as history shows it will be).

We must put a stop to tolerating tyrants - in the name of humanity and the life of each individual. We are tolerating death. We are tolerating the maiming of innocents. We are tolerating the evil of the anti-life and will eventually pay with our own. Reality's justice will see to it.

Dee

Bush and Blair condemn latest suicide bombing

Bush is starting to get on my nerves.

zulubaby,

admittedly, I made the mistake of going on the yahoo message boards from the story link to see dozens of messages of support and taunting - that sped the rage up considerably.

the sense of utter helplessness isn't feeling all too great either.

i think its time it starts being stated explicitly - Muslims are not human beings.

IDF tanks positioned outside Bethlehem

Please say a brochah for the soldiers.

Athos #13 - I agree, it's just that I can't see anymore how us standing up against this filth can save lives. Especially when hearing in Israel people say (e.g. like in Kibbutz Metser where 5 people including 2 little children were massacred last week), that we still have a partner to talk to and that only with enemies you can make peace, etc etc. If here we say that, I don't expect anyone else in the world to stand up against this filth.

Looks like Hamas is claiming this.

This is making me beyond sick. Why are our hands being tied as we bleed to death? If we can not use the force of our mighty IDF for fear of world and Jewish opinion- conscienece then why not transfer them away us? Get them away from our children.
For heavens sake, get the Iraqi campaign on the way. In the aftermath draw up a new MidEast map then carve out an area for these bastards. Have Jordan Syria and Iran take care of them. But not after denazifying them first.

Thank you, Dee. The time for tears is over. Not because these latest victims don't deserve it; they do, and sadly, there will be many tears for them. It's time to get coldly, calculatedly angry.

It is time for all of our voices to be heard, drowning out the whining, self-pitying CAIR and AMC voices. It is time for every one of our elected officials to hear loud and clear that the two-state "solution" is no solution because it is an impossibility. Our government must stop putting pressure on Israel to accept murderers on her borders, and help find another solution--transfer or death.

It is time for all the world to recognize that it's one or the other. After 54+ years, it is a sad reality that either the Arabs will kill the Israelis if they insist on staying in their country, or the Israelis must eliminate the contiguous Arabs if they are to survive. This time, the Jews will not be sacrificed.

Arafat walked away from a fair two-state solution two years ago, and the Arabs, with the PA's complicity, started a campaign of terror specifically directed at unarmed Israeli civilians, and at the Israeli civilian infrastructure. The paleos insist on sticking with him as their representative; so be it. They are thus equally culpable--the PA represents them.

By any moral gauge, they have relinquished all claims to the West Bank and Gaza. Transfer is, under the circumstances, kinder than they deserve.

#24 - actually.. Hanan Ashwari already said it explicitly to Bob Simon once and a few more times since (I've seen on CNN a few months ago).. she said something along the lines of

Even animals have compassion for their own kids. (link)

Couldn't have said it better myself.

#21 Dee Bates

On 9-12 'Shrub should have pulled out a map, threw a dart, and killed half a million closest to where the dart hit. [3000 / 19 killers is about 200:1 , retribution at 200:1 would have been 3000 x 200:1, or about half a million.]
The message would have been RECEIVED by those who understand such tactics.

#22 Zulubaby

Bush is starting to get on your nerves???

"Religion of Peace" my ass. I don't know what diplomatic game he is playing (the "nice doggie" shit while you look for a big rock to brain the nice doggie with). But the US does not need to play those games. We can take ALL islamic countries straight-up without the BS, and based on Hansen's writings, annilation vs. attrition is usually more economical.

The US has not called up a draft, or even an official call for enlistment, even though in a "real war" that is the default.

Unless Iraq, Saudi, Iran, and a few random other ME shitholes (who have declared war against the US in the past) see drastic "regime changes" before the next election, I might as well vote for Gore, or any Republican that challenges 'Shrub in the primaries.

What Americans need to understand is that Israel is approximately 1/45 the populations size (275/6). So this one attack is equivalent to what the US suffered in Oklahoma City and is proportionally larger than the deaths suffered 9-11-01 at the Pentagon.

mommydoc #10

I posted this on another thread but it's relevant to your post here.

There already is precedent for transfer in Europe, mid-twentieth century. After WWII the Czechs kicked out
3 million ethnic Germans because they had served as the excuse for Nazi Germany to tear off the Sudetenland and later invade Czechoslovakia, and because the ethnic Germans had helped the invading German armies.
[Link: www.iht.com...]

At the time no one had any problems with the Czechs kicking out the ethnic Germans, the other Europeans and the U.S. felt the Germans had it coming.

Some time after the the war there were vague and informal mutual apologies, the Germans for conquering Czechoslovakia, the Czechs for kicking out the ethnic Germans. The Czechs however did not take back the Germans.

SecHumanist,

For the sake of your blood pressure, I must encourage you to stay away from the dregs at Yahoo! and CNN.

ARABS GO HOME: TO JORDAN!
TRANSFER NOW!!!

Who is in charge of this?

In the Israeli media:

Everyone identifies the suicide bomber as a 23 year old from Bethlehem.
Bethlehem is under palestinian control, [once again, the work of Ben-Eliezer.]

What I'm interested to know is, which organization?
It seems there are conflicting reports:

Ynet says - Hamas

Haaretz says the suicide bomber is known to be a supporter of Islamic Jihad, even though the organization did not take responsibility.

Considering how there was no previous knowledge of this threat [as police officials have stated], I'd say Islamic Jihad is involved, even if Hamas takes responsibility [just as Hamas said after the Hebron atrocity - "it was us all along, there just happened to be a few Islamic Jihad guys in the area, we only noticed them after 15 minutes!"].
It appears to me that the HizbAllah organized sections within Islamic Jihad are'nt penetrated well by Israeli intelligence.

Bush getting on my nerves goes something like this:

"It is clear that those who want to use terror to stop any prospect for peace are still active," Bush said. He said "all countries in the region ... must do their best to fight terror."

It remains the United State's goal to see two independent states -Israel and Palestine - living side-by-side in peace, Bush said. "We will continue to work with those who share that vision," he said.

Please. Not now.

Some other time, but not now, not immediately after this.

Forgot something in my post #33

Look at page 4 of the article in the International Herald Tribune. Apparently the present day EU feels that the Czech decrees that validated the expulsion of the ethnic Germans and the confiscation of their property was not incompatible with EU laws.

From Jerusalem Post:

In Bethlehem, the bomber was tentatively identified as Nael Azmi Abu Hilail, 23, a supporter of Islamic Jihad, though there was no claim of responsibility by the group. Abu Hilail's family said he left home Wednesday and hadn't returned.

zulubaby,

I must encourage you to stay away from the dregs at Yahoo! and CNN.

Ha.. as you were typing that I was busy throwing a shoe at Mathew Chance (CNN) who just can't seem to help himself when he has a chance to mention the "occupation" or the fact that he thinks Israel is doing everything all wrong.

As for Yahoo.. I learned my lesson rather quickly.. I don't read the messages anymore, just go on, post a dozen or so statements, and leave. Rather trollish tactic.. but hey, when in Rome...

Again

No "transfer" needed, cordon and search the entire unsecured perimeter of Israel (Gaza Strip and West Bank). If IDF draws fire, they draw back and suppress the fire with artillery. Repeat as required.

Sectors which clear the search without fire are, of course, cleared. Civilians (and enemy combatants) may leave the AO for Jordan or Egypt (as the case may be) if they wish.

What I'm interested to know is, which organization?

Does it really matter anymore?

I don't know why this afternoon the tanks are not positioned around Rammalah and Bethlehem and they roll in and level the towns. There are, I imagine, enough virgins in heaven for all the residents, and this way they can all get a proper burial. What difference to humanity does it make it Ramallah is flattened?
I still don't get why there are not riots in Jerusalem right now demanding that the muslims leave or die.

By the way, you notice how in Arabia nobody even pretends to say that Islam is a religion of peace. I guess the "Tafiki" (Islamic deception to non-muslims) only applies in "Dar-al-Hirb" (The place of peace) and not "Dar-al-islam" (The home of wickedness)

SecHumanist,

Throw your shoes at CNN! That's what I used to when I still tortured myself by watching :-)

Goodnight all. Sleep tight.

"Debka:Hospitals report unfamiliar types of burns suffered by Israeli victims of Jerusalem bus bombing Thursday. Palestinian terrorist suspected of using new type of explosive which exacerbates injuries. "

Not true, according to the doctors at my wife's hospital. Lots of casualties, including many children, but the burns and other injuries are no different from those caused by previous bombings.

db--your solution makes no sense, as it is only temporary. Assuming they draw no fire, they move on, and the bastards go right back to suicide bombing.

No--transfer. The Arabs currently in the West Bank go to Jordan, those in Gaza go to Egypt. They don't want 'em? That's their problem--they created the mess.

From CNN:

Olmert said Jerusalem authorities have prevented an average of 10 terror attacks -- bombings, shootings and suicide attacks -- every night, and he placed the blame squarely on Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

If 1% of this were happening in Europe, there would be lynchings, concentration camps, and mass transfer set up overnight.

What other nation would remain so firmly on the moral high ground in the face of such hideous, barbaric onslaught? This really makes me ashamed to be an European, citizen of horribly immoral Pattendom.

What other nation would remain so firmly on the moral high ground in the face of such hideous, barbaric onslaught?

It's not moral high ground. It's stupidity.
Anything less than scraping these people off the land with tanks and bulldozers is stupid. As long as Israel fails to do so, they are asking for more.

As long as an Israeli politician says there's a partner in peace, there will always be bombings.

As long as an Israeli politician promises utilaterian withdrawal from Gaza and/or West Bank, there will always be bombings.

As long as Bush doesn't condemn Islam, there will always be bombings.

As long as Israel treats the Palis with kid gloves, there will always be bombings.

As long as the leaders of the terror gangs are not under attack there will always be bombings.

When will the tipping point happen??

I just hope that Israel has plans to attack Gaza, West Bank, and Lebanon as soon as the Iraqi war starts. Transfer is to kind to these animals.

Any Palis alive today is a lost cause. It's only when they're all killed and new ones are born that can possibly be molded into human beings.

JG

#47 wrote -

If 1% of this were happening in Europe, there would be lynchings, concentration camps, and mass transfer set up overnight.

I already know their horrible answer to this : "True, but we are not occupying the Palestinians"

Over and Over. Religion of Peace my ass. Bush's condemnation reminds me of an article in MAD magazine a few years back. It was entitled "Who Gives A Rat's Ass?" One of the topics was "Will the UN condemn or strongly condemn the suicide attacker that just blew you up... Who Gives a Rat's Ass?!?!?!" Not to belittle this attack, but I think the article points out the absurdity of such pathetic responses to atrocities. I am sick of my country pandering to these murders. At least Israel strikes back, which is more than I can say for America. Anyway, since these islamists are a threat to me, my nation, and the good folks in Israel, i am thinking of joining the IDF when i graduate since America seems reluctant to protect its citizens. However, I am not Jewish. I was wondering if anybody knew if they would take me.

Jordan

#48 -- you have at least half a point. My meaning was to slight the idiots that say Israel should gain the moral high ground by unilaterally surrendering to the 67 "borders."

RE #42 - PDM

I refer to the practical point of of view, not political.
As far as catching those directly responsible, it matters a lot... It appears to me that palestinian terror organizations [Hamas, PLO/Fatah/Tanzim/Al-Aqsa martyrs, D/PFLP] have suffered a hard blow, but the outside ones like Islamic Jihad [which has been taken over by HizbAllah ever since the assasination of it's leader Fathi Shqaqi in the 90's] have not been damaged to a significant extent.
Someone on a different thread wrote about "brains" and "mules".
My impression is, the IDF got the vast majority of palestinian "brains", but there are still plenty of "brains" from the outside - HizbAllah and Iraqi intelligence in particular.

If you refer to the alleged "different goals" of terror organizations, then I agree it does not matter.

Oh, and Debka suggests this is a chemical attack,
makes sense considering there have been a few unsuccessful attempts in the past to add poisonous chemicals to the conventional charge. It was even admitted by the police back then.

#46 Mommydoc

Mommydoc, maybe I wasn't clear, the operation is cordon and search - everything is searched, every nook and cranny. The purpose is to ensure that no firearms, ammunition, or explosives are overlooked (and the kind of funny looking stuff like rocket bodies, mousetraps and such).
Dogs and portable spectral analysis devices (like airports use) are handy for these searches.

The cordon is used to isolate (i.e.: quarnatene) each sector. The search is as above.

Once each sector is secured, those within cannot go to unsecured ares (without getting shot, johnny on the spot). As much time as needed may be used for the search.

Tips for activity in advance sectors will be taken and evaluated. If need be, suspect sectors will be softened prior to search.

Again, if IDF draws enemy fire, the sector would be rendered inert prior to advancing.

Enemy combatants may withdraw, and they may be fire upon during withdrawal (i.e.: valle of death, iraq). Of course (enemy) civilians/refugees may withdrawn at will, and it is ecouraged, per Genevea Convention, if firefights evolve in the AO. Refugees, gain oer Genevea Convention, are to be given maximun freedom of movement (to Jordan, Egypt, or behind friendly lines after search).

The purpose is to systematically destroy the enemy's means to fight (be it men, morale, or munitions). That is what war is.

As ugly as war is, when war is waged is is far worse than what ararat and his kin as yet dealt to Israel. And there are those, like Sherman, Patten, and Norman who are prepared to kill, wholesale, as damn many of the enemy as it takes, even if it is all, for the enemy to give up the fight.

It is not transfer, it is kill as damn many as it takes for them to fight no more.

Hezbollah? That suggests that the real target lies in Tehran. A strike at some mullah nest there might also serve to encourage the Iranian pro-democracy movement.
As for Bush, his phony war is becoming more and more bizarre. I will vote for anyone who promises to recognize what the jihadi monsters have known all along: that America's war, and Israel's, and Russia's, and India's, are all one and the same.

At least Labour won't get in now.

PDM is absolutely correct. The different groups all want the same thing, and are working together ( [Link: www.honestreporting.com...] ).

There are tanks outside Bethlehem. Cue dozens of assholes talking about Israeli oppression and occupation.

Hamas have claimed it. [Link: www.jpost.com...]

Screw penetrating the organistations. Find and destroy - not kill, destroy - the members and symapthizers.

Fucking hell, maybe they want a REAL occupation. Settlements and roadblocks? You ain't seen nothing yet.

#10 - Mommydoc - That's exactly what should be done; then flatten the cities in the West Bank and Gaza, so there's no chance of return.

My post #54,

Sorry, bad spelling, but that never was my strongpoint, and it is late...

First casualty recognized:

"Hodaya Asraf", a 13 year old girl from Qiriat-Menahem neighbourhood of Jerusalem.

She was probably going to school... :-(

America should hit a target of one of each different organisation after each attack. Israel should go in after to kill survivors.

Again, for the life of me, I don't know why there are not riots to expel the followers of muhammed from Jerusalem. There cannot be a situation where a person is a muslim, and is also allowed to go on busses.
Muslims will continue to perform their religion until they are expelled.

Stage two
Condi 2008

#62 Gary

Condi in 2004.

'Shrub should have done more. I am having a very hard time buying the 'least cost' option (that a MBA would bring) on this operation.

The religion of peace also massacred a Christian missionary this morning in an act of courage. They sacrted follower of muhammed snuck into a church convent in middle of the morning in Lebanon and killed her while she was sleeping.
Boy these muhammedans are such good people.
Maybe what we need is more ads in teh papers telling us what a sacred and humane man Muhammed is (as planned by Cair). That way even though muslims everywhere are committing these vile and wicked acts of religion of peace, we'll know muhammedanism is really peaceful./

it is time for israel to act unilaterally against the arab barbarians by creating more "facts on the ground" that promote israeli de facto ownership and control of land currently held by the enemies of sanity and humanity. instead of holding back, israel should act so forcefully, even at the expense of its holy alliance with g. w. bush, to force saddam's hand... this would offer the usa a pretext if it ever needed one to go in and do the job. there must be some way to pay back scum in a way that increases the security and territorial integrity of a small, beleaguered, but wonderful people without sinking to the level of the inhuman garbage that seeks to destroy the jewish people on a daily basis.

I think it may be time to simply assassinate Arafat. And then move down the ladder of command. Nothing, and I mean nothing will stop this thuggocracy from stemming the tide of violence, a tide that will only end when every Jew is dead.

Israel will survive, and I have no doubt the Israelis will strike back, but what price is acceptable? Schoolchildren are now targets…I agree with other posts here Palestinians in the West Bank to Jordan, Gaza Strip to Egypt shut the borders down and forget them. There seems to be no other way. Arafat and Hamas will kill and kill, not because they desire land or peace, but simply because they must kill Jews, their ‘god’ demands it.

The Palestinian Cult of Death makes no rational sense. This attack is made in the shadow of an Israeli political campaign.

If they were rational, the Palestinians would be doing everything in their power to encourage the election of liberals in Israel. Instead, they are virtually guaranteeing a conservative sweep.

You'd think by their actions that they want all-out war. But that can't be right. They know that they would lose.

They are counting on the innate goodness of the Jews. They believe that their evil will eventually fatigue Israel to the point it gives up and its people leave the middle east. They accept peace deals and cease fires only to make incremental gains and allow time to reload.

It is hard for those who are good to understand the motivations and plans of those who are evil. And these terrorists are the very essence of evil. Israel needs to get serious about killing every one of them.

There will be massive collateral damage. But before the Palestinians abandon the culture of death they have embraced, the population is apparently going to have to experience more pain. It’s remarkable that after all the death, Palestinians still favor terrorism.

The normal constraints of humanity don't seem to apply to radical Muslims. The fact that what they are doing is wrong is not enough. Radical Muslims need to be shown that terrorism is counter-productive.

Bush statement: "we are going to continue to work toward peace in the Middle East. Two states living side by side is the vision and we will continue to work with those who share that vision for the sake of the Israeli people and for the sake of the Palestinians."

What he should have said:

- the goal is and remains peace for civilized people, but...

- we thought promising two states side-by-side would help civilize the Palestinians

- it obviously didn't and doesn't work

- from now on we will work exclusively for the sake of the Israeli people and _peaceful_ Palestinians, if any can be found

- such peaceful Palestinian will show their dedication to peace by moving out of their fake "refugee camps" and away from terrorist quarters (multiple destinations are available, e.g. Egypt and Jordan)

- any Palestinian who performs, sponsors, or publicly supports terrorist acts will be summarily executed, without further warning; signs of public support for terrorism shall include dancing in the streets after news of attacks, throwing rocks at tanks, and attending funerals of terrorists

To allow the creation of a Palestinian state would be suicide for Israel. There is no other solution but to kick the Palestinians out of their terrorist-infested rat-holes. Not one more child in Israel must be allowed to be murdered. No compromise is possible with such barbarians. None.

many of the comments here range from kill all of the Palestinians to transfer them all. while these may sound like the only real solutions for Israeli security, they are also both the only real options that will never happen. no matter what. (unfortunately or not)

Im not for giving a prize to terror, but as a person living in Israel, i want my security restored. I can no longer deal with these terror attacks, and no one should ask me to. I can no longer continue living my life as if all is ok because not all is ok. Building a huge hi tech fence more or less along the 67 border while seperating ourselves from the Palestinians doesnt seem like a bad idea at this point.

will it guarantee my security? probably not, but i dont see transfer as guaranteeing my security any more considering the transfer would be to various countries bordering Israel. but it would sure limit it. i dont ask for a peace agreement, nor am i blind to think one is coming, but i want it to stop being so easy for some Pal crackhead to cross into israel walk onto a bus and blow up school children.

Stephen Gordon #67

With all due respect I don't think it's "A palestinian cult of death"
It is an Islamic death cult.
This satanic death cult is not exclusive to arabs (see Roche in Australia) or to the middle east (watch the next 20 years as western Europe islamifies). It is a result of the backwardness, wickedness and evil that has infected the muslim world. The satanic death cult needs to be confronted everywhere by mass murder of those who follow it's wicked teachings. It sounds harsh, but imagine if when this muslim uprising began in Israel, there would have been the assasination of arafat his underlings, and say another 20,000 people. That right there would have ended this wickedness, and hopefully killed many muslims. Then they wouold have been told they may onlyu have 2 children and that every single muslim has to become literate. If that happened islam would be in a better shape than it is right now.

#65 nate

What facts on the ground? what forcefull actions are you talking about? what to do with the 3 million Palestinians once youve created these facts on the ground? Go back to how it was before Oslo, where we control the lives of the Palestinians, is that the suggestion? not that im against it(as it certainly seemed more secure then, than now) im just trying ot understand...

yeah this is bad, but does it really measure up to such atrocities as the destruction of palestinean infrastructure?

sarcasm off

To hl #69

With all due respect, are you crazy?
Do you have any idea how much these followers of muhammed hate jews? I know when I'm in Canada (which will be a muslim country soon - not like Lebanon or even Jordan. When I say Muslim I mean like Algerian or Satani Arabian)
it's quite normal for muslims to call up the radio after an act of shahid and volunteer themselves to kill jews. With this massive population of hatefilled followers of muhammed next door; You in this tiny ghetto that is under attack from the Europeans who when they become islamic would rather wage war against jews than feed their population; You think then you'll be safe?
The only solution is to announce to the world, "you have 30 days to arrange the safe and humane construction of refugee camps in Jordan for the followers of muhammed to breed in. After thirty days every muslim still in Israel will be sent to the virgins."
Trust me when I say that the reaction of the world will be exactly the same as anything else you'd do.
Arab world - this new aggression against our people is terrible
Islamic world - Death death death death
europe - you wicked jews all deserve to die
USA - cautions Israel from hurting innocent pallys

Witness the IDF saying that they didn't send troops into Bethlehem. And if they did? would it make a difference? the europeans would still be screaming about the innocent palestinians. An example: Jenin. What if there had been a massacre. What if Israel had gone in leveled the city and killed every resident? do you think the reaction of the world would be any different?
That's why these muslims commit so much islam. It doesn't make a a difference. Do you think that after this massacre anyone will reverse their support for the Palestinians? do you think it wouild make a difference if a million (As adolph arafat promises) young muhammedans followed in his footsteps. Would it make a difference at all.
You've got to get with the reality there are one billion exceedingly wicked people who are all ready to die in order to genocide you. All of these billion need to be detoxed from their Quranic exposure.`
The ghetto fence is a laughable idea.

I found out about this on Fox a few seconds before I opened up LGF. I'm so angry at this moment I can barely type. Schoolchildren calling for their mothers. Fucking damn barbarian pigs. And damn their Western apologists.

#71, complete expulsion is the only solution, because what the Palestinians want is to wipe out Israel.

Let them start a new life in Jordan and Egypt. Close the physical borders with these countries and shoot anyone attempting to cross. If Egypt fails to prevent such attempts, take back the Sinai. At the same time, the US must put pressure on these two countries to eliminate their local islamofascists. Only extreme measures can deal with extreme barbarians. The islamofascists are not different in any essential way from the Nazis. No compromise is possible.

I saw this tv show called "The Women of Hezbollah". (on Worldlink TV)
Have any of you seen it? Scary. You have to listen to these sick women - there is no vision - no hope of peace - just kill all the Jews.
I was screaming at the tv when this woman says she hopes her sons become martyrs.
I would gladly offer to go to Beirut with my .45 and help her out. I'll pay for the bullets.
I never thought I would feel this way.

Note in the FOX story that Bush-2 has taken this as an occasion once again to tout his determination to set up an Arab Terror State in the heart of the Land of Israel.

And the Quartet he orchestrates has ordered Israel not only to cease any measures against the terrorists but to cease INCITEMENT AGAINST PALESTINIANS -- Meaning Israel is forbidden even to speak the truth about what is happening.

This has got to be one of the #(&&!$ #%**)@) STUPIDEST policies ever adopted by a US administration.

I think a new approach is necessary. I think the Bush Administration needs to recognize that Iraq should be the SECOND Ba'athist state to go.

In the wake of the Hebron "incident," at the urging of Israel, the American ambassador to Syria demanded that they shut down the office of Islamic Jihad in Damascus. Syria refused, angrily. This is not Iraq, which at least denies holding weapons of mass destruction. This is not North Korea, which says that it is willing to negotiate over its nuclear program. This is not Iran, which appears to be on the cusp of its own internal revolution.

This is just a country that is openly, and defiantly, harboring terrorists and justifying terrorism. Oh, and also occupying a neighboring state. They believe that because they backed the U.S. in the Security Council vote on Iraq, and because they are cooperating with America regarding Al Qaeda, they have a free pass to facilitate terror attacks against Israel. If America defers to this, then the Syrians are right, and that means that the Israeli schoolchildren's blood is, in part, on Bush's hands. Bush needs to recognize this.

Suppose U.S. warplanes were to inflict some heavy damage on Syrian military positions, and then the U.S. ambassador were to repeat his demand that the Syrians shut down Islamic Jihad, and add a few more like organizations to the list? This might get the attention of the whole Arab world.

not for nothing #76

It's quite alright to feel this way. The wickedness and danger that islam poses to humanity is such that issues of safety to muhammedan civilians is silly.
Besides for the fact that the moment a muslim gets from his imam a gun, or a muhammedaness puts on a hijab, under international law they are a fighter and may be killed. (Wearing an enemy uniform, and bearing arms is under intl law enough to make a muslim a target.)

Besides all 5 billion of us non-muslims agree with you completely. Every jihadi even if they haven't done anything wicked yet must be shot in the head.

First of all, thanks to all of you who have expressed your support and condolences.

Here is a link from the _Jerusalem Post_ that helps a lot in explaining what we're up against here.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

If this link doesn't work then go to the JPost website and look up the article by Lawrence Kelemen, "Learning from Sadism."

I know the author, he's a scholar and gentleman, and he's spot on with this article.

It's with great difficulty that I restrain myself from saying what I really think about all this balagan, but many of you have covered that in your contributions. It's good to know there are some folk out there with their heads screwed on straight.

As far as "Faster, Please" is concerned, NOW sounds even better!

Ben (#78) let's see what happens when the war on Saddam resumes. I expect that Israel will take the opportunity to wipe out islamofascists in PLO-occupied land (including, finally, Arafat), Lebanon, and Syria.

The Israelis have two problems: their reliance on Palestinian labor and their concern about public opinion. As others here have pointed out, world opinion will be the same no matter what they do, so why not do something that works. Transfer Palestinians, including non-loyal Israeli Arabs (most but not all of them), to Jordan and Egypt, and import guest workers from some third world country that doesn't have muslims. (Mexico?)

Lisa #80

That was actually a beautiful article. I think the same thing can be said about us in America that we should be teaching our children sensitivity stemming from religion.
if only 'twere so

No 69 - HL --

I also live in Israel. I have noticed, as you may not have, that a fence would close almost one million Arabs INSIDE Israel.

At the time Oslo was perpetrated, I heard a knowledgable analyst predict that it would lead only to more Arab violence and terrorism beyond the "green line" but also within it -- because the Arabs would take Oslo as proof that Israelis had become weak and vulnerable.

The maddening thing is, that Israel has the power to stop the terrorism, or most of it, but not a government with the political will to use it.

As Golda used to say: Better a bad review than a good obituary.

Lisa (#80) the article's first part is OK, then it goes from bad to terrible. I'm sorry, but raising better children is not what will save Israel (even if one were to assume along with the article's author that altruism is good, which I don't). Protecting these children from murderers is what will save Israel.

The only way Israel will save itself and its children is if the PLO and all its branches are eliminated, and at the same time the Palestinian population migrates and starts a new life elsewhere. The solution is military-political.

Diane L. #82

our reliance on Palestinian labor is not an issue anymore since most of them were replaced by foreign workers (from Philippines, China, Poland, Romania, ...and even Israelis)

we have a long time ago given up on the world's opinion to our actions.

so, will you ask, what is the problem then? well, simply, we are NOT barbarians (unfortunately!) otherwise all of our problems would have been solved by now. Transfer somehow reminds me of the Nazi's and what they've put my paternal grandparents & family through, it reminds me of Kadhafi and the hell he has put my maternal grandparents & mother through.
We probably have a much harder time with it, that's what differentiates us from them..

#68 (hl) you have got it exactly right. At the moment, the most extreme elements are setting the agenda and this is a prescription for perpetual violence. I know the average Israeli would just like to be done with the massive headache that is the West Bank and Gaza strip but (rightly) is unwilling to capitulate to terrorism. The average Palestinian on the other hand is quite a different matter and this scenario will only change in a fundamental way when the average Palestinian's perspective changes fundamentally. The only way the average Palestinian's perspective will change is when his or her life get significantly better and this will never happen under the current circumstances. As I'm sure y'all have noticed few, if any, suicide bombers come out of Gaza. Given that Gaza is Hamas-central the only explanation for this can be the wall around it and similarly, a wall around the West Bank (all of it) would no doubt produce a similar effect. Think how effective the Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China were, this is the answer. Those proposing Transfer forget to ask the question: "If a totally Palestinian-free Israel is the answer, why don't we just put the IDF on the border right now and prevent even a single Palestinian from coming across?" - the answer is obvious: Israel's economy depends to a fair degree upon Palestinian labor. If Israel were ready to take the economic hit, they probably would have done this already - a wall gives Israel a way to truly control who enters but still allow workers to come in after being thoroughly scrutinized. People would scream about the "inhumanity" of the wall initially but in time, the suicide bombings would stop, the Israels would have no need to retaliate and then the average Palestinian's life would get better. It might take years for them to settle down and become reasonable but if those years pass without suicide bombings what does it matter? One day, cooler heads will prevail on the Palestinian side and at that point a permanent resolution to the problem would be viable and prudent.

Believe me, I do sympathize with the Transfer folks and even with suggesting more drastic and violent options but such approaches have heavy negative consequences and no better positive consequences than building a wall would. Israel gets significant financial aid from the US, I think it would be more than reasonable to allocate much of it towards "wall building" for the time being and get that project done immediately.

Psalms 94
O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph? How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves? They break in pieces thy people, O LORD, and afflict thine heritage. They slay the widow and the stranger, and murder the fatherless. Yet they say, The LORD shall not see, neither shall the God of Jacob regard it. Understand, ye brutish among the people: and ye fools, when will ye be wise? He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see? He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know? The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity. Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law; That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.
For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance. But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it.
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity? Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence. When I said, My foot slippeth; thy mercy, O LORD, held me up. In the multitude of my thoughts within me thy comforts delight my soul. Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law? They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood. But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge. And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.

Lisa#80: fascinating, horrifying article. Well, that explains a lot. But I can't relate to how the author goes on to say Israelis need to encourage sensitivity, etc. in their children. It may be that Israelis need to develop a more pragmatic and less idealistic character to deal with their neighbors. An outsider like me looks at the events in Israel and thinks, why are they enabling these terrorists? Do they really think being civilized requires them to be victims? Sometimes I don't respect Israelis when they express these unrealistic, treacly sentiments, as exemplified by the conclusion of that article.

Can't take this anymore... Start my morning crying...
It is WW3 - we are losing as long as we don't accept this!

CA #86: I'm glad to hear there are so many non-muslim workers. However, why are so many Palestinians crossing from the territories to work in Israel? That's a huge source of terrorism. And some of my older relatives were concentration camp alumni. A personal experience of the holocaust shouldn't necessarily make one reluctant to do what needs to be done. Here's the difference: separating Jews from Arabs is necessary to prevent Jews from being murdered by them. This is in no way what the Germans did in the 30s and 40s, because the survival of Germans was not threatened by Jews living in Germany. Ditto Jews suffering from oppression in Arab countries. Absolutely nothing like the suffering of Palestinians, which they bring on themselves. Jews in muslim countries don't behave like the Palestinians.

#75 Kalle

No one is arguing that they want to wipe out Israel. BUt how is your suggestion of expulsion to jordan or egypt any better than creating a new border. They will still want to wipe out israel in both cases. Only in one they will use achmed 4 rockets with range of 30 km, and in another achmed 6 with 70 km range. There is no solution that you can promote that will change their mindset in wanting to wipe out Israel. And therefore we need to seperate, yes one option is seperate by expulsion, but that will never happen, no matter what. You say "Let them start a new life in Jordan and Egypt."
Like i said in this case they will use achmed 6 rockets. Thus you set up a new border and act as the rest of your post suggests: "Close the physical borders... and shoot anyone attempting to cross." At the same time, the US must put pressure on these two countries to eliminate their local islamofascists. Only extreme measures can deal with extreme barbarians. The islamofascists are not different in any essential way from the Nazis. No compromise is possible.

No one is asking to compromise only asking for a reasonable solution that has a chance of being implemented

#73 The Angry Infidel

Yes, Muslims are evil, they hate jews, they want to kill jews blah blah blah blah. How is the Pals being in Jordan any better than setting up new defensible borders? and in any case as i mentioned expulsion is a highly unlikely solution to happen while creating new borders is much more of a possibility

#84 Dorothy

Im not sure i understand what your saying or suggesting... To expel the 1 million Israeli arabs? and btw you may think of the 3 million pals outside the green line as living outside of Israel.. I do not. However i do suggest that we make this territory outside Israel as a practical and reasonable solution for bettering our security within the green line since i do not believe expulsion will ever happen.

#53 nomad33,
I refer to the practical point of of view, not political.
I do too.
I agree with you that catching those directly responsible is very important. And, intelligence about these organizations operating outside of Israel is essential for Israel’s survival. But, Israel should not have to worry about getting information and fighting terrorists in its own back yard of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
The wild asses of men must be removed from the land completely. There is no point in trying to pick out the “bad Palestinians” anymore. School children are being scattered all over the streets with their sack lunches! What is practical?
It is ridiculous how long this has been going on, and how long Israel tolerates it.

I heard an Arutz Sheva commentator say that the Arabs are boiling Israel, as one should cook a lobster.
Place the cold-blooded creature in a pot of cold water. The heat should be increased gradually rather than just dropping the animal directly in to boiling water so the lobster will not put up a fight. When the heat (of terror) has been increased to the point where the (Israeli) lobster can no longer acclimate to its environment, it is "cooked."

I see a different analogy. Israel has had a little too much to drink. Now there is an element in the system, which is at a level that the Jewish state cannot tolerate. It has to throw up (expel the Arabs). Like me, Israel simply cannot go to the bathroom and do what has to be done, and puts it off, praying that it can be avoided, praying that its stomach will just settle down peacefully. However, eventually, that lack of action has me hanging over the same toilet anyway. The longer Israel delays, the sicker it will get. To Israel I say, it’s time to puke.
…As if the news isn’t enough to make one do so already.

I fear for our children.

They will grow up in a world where billions and billions of Muslims become the dominant population in Europe and Canada.

The consequences...

# 81 Kalle

I disagree. It has to be the U.S., not Israel, because the U.S. created the problem.

The U.S. is sending very strong signals that anti-Israel terrorism is O.K. It named Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and Hezbollah as terrorist entities, but the country that most openly shelters them, Syria, is given a free pass, and the U.S. still treats the P.A. as a negotiating partner and demands that Israel do so as well. The "Quartet" process is still going full speed ahead, despite open P.A. refusal to rein in the "militants" and undeniable evidence that the Palestinian security forces are also directly implicated up to their eyeballs.

If the U.S. were to hit Syria, it would send a message, because Syria has no oil. Syria would be hit solely because it openly and defiantly harbors terrorists and praises their deeds.

The U.S. should also break off all contacts with the P.A., for the specific reason that the Palestinian parliament approved Arafat's nomination of an Interior Minister who openly approves of terrorist attacks against Israelis, replacing an Interior Minister who resigned because of lack of support for his efforts to purge the Palestinian security forces of terrorists. And the U.S. should publicly state that foreign aid levels to Egypt are under review because of grave violations by Egypt of the Camp David peace treaty.

The U.S. has to stop playing footsie with the terrorists.

Let's face it. The PR people who defend the religion of peace are winning. The truth is that more synagogues were burnt last year in France alone than mosques all over the world. I'm not saying mosques should be destroyed, but that reaction or the lack of it is a kind of thermometer of popular anger or, in our case, of the lack of it. Most Americans have bought the idea that there's no real correlation between Islam and terror/murder/barbarism. Until there are riots on the streets of NY, instead of candles, and millions of people claiming for blood and revenge, the bad guys will go on sleeping well. Israel's hands are tied, not by Europe or the world, but by the US. Has anybody read Brent Scowcroft's op-ed today in the WaPo? Well, he's basically saying Israel should surrender and commit suicide. Israel won't really act before America's OK and this OK, if it ever comes, won't come, I'm begining to think, before a second 911. There seems to be no place on earth where anger has been so effectively tamed as in America.

Wipe away the tears.

Wipe out the Islamites.

Kill their women.

Kill their children.

Slaughter their cattle.

Sew their land with salt.

Fix it so our grandchildren won't have to worry about these "religious" zealots.

Send in the tanks and if the arabs want a war then its ww3

hl (#92) once they live within the borders of Jordan and Egypt it is the responsibility of those governments to jail and otherwise punish wannabe-terrorists. The "Palestinian Authority" has proved to be nursing terrorism and so a new government must be given to these people.

The only solution is to put Palestinian under new rulers. The only semi-reasonable options are (trans)-Jordan and Egypt. The Jordanian army has already several times shown how it deals with Palestinian terrorists: wipe them out.

Maybe Gaza and the West Bank could be ruled by these two countries, but there is no good reason to reward them with territory they tried to steal from Israel. Let them absorb the Palestinian population and enforce their rule on them. If their new population get their hands on military weapons it will be up to the Jordanian+Egyptian army to deal with them, and if they don't then the IDF can with full legitimity unleash its own weapons in retaliation -- which both countries would rather avoid btw.

Does this makes more sense?

#87 - I agree.

Get a huge wall up ASAP (have most of the major Settlements on the Israeli side of the wall so these scum know that they are losing land).

Corral these Terrorstinians in like livestock, and only let in workers after a strip search.

My heart endorses transfer and more bombings, but my head thinks this is the more reasonable solution.

#91 Diane L.

The differences in transfers is clear(to you and me). however to muhammed the 5 year old boy and achmed his father who have been friends with Israelis and worked with Israelis for years and now cant transfer will seem nazi like. transfer if neceesary i would probably promote.. Only its not necessary.. the pojnt of tranfer is seperation.. we can seperate without transfer. that way we are not perceived as nazi like by the few right-minded Pals or the enlightened Israeli left(sarcasm) and we gain nearly the same amount of security. of course not the same amount amount but its a compromise that we should be able to live with

Ben (#95) you are right, the US should deal with Syria. Since they haven't done it and don't seem to be in a hurry to do it anytime soon, I hope Israel teaches them another lesson as soon as Saddam is under fire. Syria needs as much regime change as Iraq does.

#99 Kalle (kafir forever)

I am sure Jordan and Egypt will happily open there borders to your tranfer idea and once they do act much more forcifully to stop the 3 million Pals who just got expelled from trying to hurt the Israelis who just expelled them.. Wake up when i say it will never happen is exactly because of that.. Egypt and Jordan will laugh in your face. On the other hand if you say transfer a jordaninan rule into the territories that would sound more reasonable.

#99 Kalle

It makes sense if you assume that Abdullah and Mubarak will live forever. Both rule over rabidly anti-Israeli populaces with an iron fist. Neither is working to reconcile their people with peace.

In the long run, the situation is not stable.

I grant you that if these governments can absorb the Palestinians without immediately falling, then it buys some time. But if the upheaval causes one or both of these governments to fall, then things could get worse instead of better, and quickly.

#99 Kalle (kafir forever)

i missed the second part of your post.. apologies. You suggested exactly what i think sounds more reasonable.. transferring rule of these countries into the territories as They would never agree to absorb 3 million Palestinians if nothing but for the purpose of continuing the Arab struggle against the jews.

I think there is a confusion between terrorism and war.
When the Jordan river acts as the border, there is still a threat of war, as their is now from Egypt Syria Libya Lebanon Iraq Iran Pakistan Algeria Morocco Tunisia Oman Saudi arabian etc.. - That will still be a problem

On the threat of muslofascist genocide bombers, though, a border is successful. see Gaza strip. In fact even the left in Israel want to unilaterally withdraw and build a fence

For the faster please crowd, (I guess that includes myself) ease up on the coffee.
I find it revolting that these murderous bastards are continuing to perpetrate these horrendous attacks, but there’s still two years for “the Shrub” to make good on his promises. Things are changing, albeit far too slowly for me, especially in light of the deaths that take place in the interim.
By very careful of the guy that smiles when you insult him (Bush), he’s not crazy, he’s got something on you. I don’t doubt President Bush’s resolve one bit.
And as far as him wanting a Palestinian state, nothing would be better. Declare it tomorrow, give them all the responsibility. When they expel the settlers, we can condemn them for ethnic cleansing. When they won’t extradite known terrorist, we can imply sanctions against them. When they attack Israel, Israel can declare war on them. And lastly we can stop listening to their ceaseless whining about how humiliating it is living in the occupied territories. When their county is a failure, they will have only themselves to blame.

But, to paraphrase Cherie Blair, when people feel helpless and oppressed, what choice to they have other than to murder as many of the oppressors as possible? Surely no one is going to suggest something as stupid and unconstructive as working to build a viable and fair Palestinian entity?

Besides, Israeli schoolchildren are legitimate targets, aren't they? After all, the little boys will someday grow up to become soldiers of the IDF and shoot down innocent Palestinian children. And the little girls will grow up to give birth to children who will, in turn, frustrate the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people.

Besides, they are nothing but descendents of apes and pigs. (I'm both; apes on my father's side, pigs on my mother's.)

And let's have no more of this sarcasm about Islam. Of course it's a religion of peace. That's why they issue fatwas against anyone who says otherwise.

...TV alarm clock notified me of this horrible news & I woke everyone as I raged. As I learned about the children I had to sit down, I felt completely drained. Reading mommydoc's words made tears swell up in my eyes. Bastards.

I agree with most of you, GWB is frigging useless! Is he stupid or what?

"religion of peace"

"partners in peace"

"war on terrorism"

...bullshit

RE #93 - PDM

Oh, now I see what you mean - "transfer".

Simply put, it is not possible in Israel.

This has very little to do with a strategic analysis of any kind - it has to do with the nature of Israelies.

Jews are usually leftists [not much pride in that, huh?], likewise for Israelies.
It took a great deal of terrorism for Israelies to be able to "forgive" themselves for collateral damage in the assasination of Salah Shahade. [remember the one ton bomb?]
There are still those [Israelies!] who think we've crossed the line that day, and they are *quite* vocal about it.
For Israelies, concensus is the key word,
even if it gets you killed.
We didn't invade the PA before operation "Defensive Shield", because we were waiting for consensus.
That consensus cost us about 450 casualties, and thousands of injured people.

Among Israelies, it would take a mega terror attack, no - make that at least several mega terror attacks to even begin to debate such a concept in an open, serious fashion. The support for "transfer" party "Moledet" has always been marginal, and is likely to keep being that way.

I know reading this makes one furious,
but it is high time we Israelies admitted there's something horribly wrong with us. That is why I never take part in the "Collin Powell bashing" festivals,
It appears my country does not wish to defend itself, why should others bother?

Do you now believe me when I say that "transfer" is not an issue?

If the terrorists can no longer infiltrate as easily, they will shift to other methods. They will build more rockets to fire over the walls. They can start shooting down airliners coming into and out of Ben Gurion Airport. And I am sure that the United States is not the only nation capable of making armed robot planes. For as long as the West Bank and Gaza are ruled by the PA, and for as long as the PA foments hatred and terror, the danger will exist, and no wall will suffice to erase it.

The Lebanese border is mostly quiet these days, but only because Hezbollah is quietly amassing rockets while most of its direct anti-Israeli activities consist of providing technical assistance to the various Palestinian terror groups. But they do fire a few volleys every now and then, just to remind the Israelis that they can hit Haifa any time they choose to. And Lebanon is even now diverting water from Israel, defying all Israeli threats and U.S. diplomatic efforts. This is Lebanon, which unlike the PA has no express territorial designs on Israel.

but there’s still two years for “the Shrub” to make good on his promises.

No, there's six months. If Saddam's still in power in six months, Bush is a failure like his father.

Ima, ima . . .

Sob.

I think it's time for Israel to respond to "martyrdom operations" with "slaughter'em operations". Why not? What has Israel's restraint achieved? Has it contributed to Israel's security. No. Has it won it the support of the international community? No. Has it engendered any good will from "moderate" Arab regimes? No. Why not just "shell the Gaza strip from one end to the other?" The vast majority of Palestinians support "martyrdom operations". That likely wouldn't change. The world community would be outraged, but they're always outraged when it comes to Israel. You could expect to hear charges of "racism", "genocide", and "war crimes" in places like the UN or Brussels. Such charges are leveled on a regular basis anyway. Honestly, I know Israel would never pursue this course of action. It would destroy the moral foundations of the Jewish State. Just kill "Chairman" Arafat and expel Palestinians en masse.

As many have said, the very fact that Israel does not react as it should - with mass killings, deportation, etc., is exactly what separates "us" from "them."

Their terror works because moral poeple who value life (Jews, Americans) just cannot sink to the depths of the Palis or the Nazis. Yet, the actions of the Palis are as viscous as the Nazis, since they are systematically directed at defenseless children.

The timing is not a coincidence. It is directly related to the Arafat-Saddam alliance and the belief that the U.S. will keep Israel from doing what it must in order to keep the peace with "moderate Arabs" - the ones who support, fund and encourage this very thing.

Therefore, I call for Nazi-like responses, and the Bush administration be damned - when the attack on Iraq comes, it will be clear who the allies are and who they are not.

1. Give Arafat and everyone in his compound 24 hours to come out and face expulsion. At the end of that time, level it if they have not surrendered.

2. Go into Gaza with full force and kill all of those Hamas/Jihadis who fester there. Take that "spriitual leader" and string him up.

My guess is that the resistance will be less than exepcted, as they are true cowards, and will flee in the face of real soliders.

The U.S. and EU will moan and groan, but force is all they understand. Kill them.

Death to all Jihadists. Notice that this bombing took place in Israel proper. Not in the so called occupied territories.

So the division of labor is Hamas kills Jews everywhere while Arafat and his Al Aqsa martyrs kill Jews only on the West bank even though they goofed up last week and killed 5 Jews (incl. women and children) in Israel.

let's see:
-Which religous group seems to cause most of the worlds terrorist acts?
-Which refugee population is the only one not to be assimilated in the last century?
-Which group of people sends homicide bombers to blow up children?
-Which population claims land in a country that never really existed as a sovereign nation?
-Which countries preach anti-semitic hatred from their mosques and newspapers (on a daily basis)?
-Which countries oppress women the most?
-Which countries have richness beyond belief - but let their people live in squalor?
-What significant technology/medical breakthrough has come out of a Muslim country in the last 800 years?
-Which group of people cheer when children are maimed and killed?
-Which countries sqaush any form of free speech with jail (or death)?
-Which countries still use barbaric forms of punishment?
-Which countries always blame their own misfortunes on the west (or anyone else)?
-Which countries are run by the harshest, crulest most barbaric regemes?

I'm sure this group could add a zillion more...

At what point does killing take precedence over morality.

The Bible says to be a good man.

The Bible also says to kill thoes that come to kill you.

The Ten Commandments say, "Thou shalt not murder."

Is a pre-emptive strike on the Palestinian population (one they will never forget) fall under the guise of murder or under the smite you before you smite me type of action?

I truly believe it is the latter.

OT
There's a great article on European attitudes in National Review Online today. NRO

I can no longer speak about the importance of freedom, liberty, and
democracy in Italy without attracting the condescending sneers of a
generation schooled by Europe's media, statesmen, and left-wing
intelligentsia to look beyond such "simplistic" concepts.

To my European classmates, any suggestion that there is a
connection between Islam and terror — even as self-identified
Islamic groups slaughter schoolchildren in Israel, tourists in Egypt,
and revelers at a Bali nightclub — is more racist than Islamists'
targeting of civilians because of their religion. European politicians
— Jacques Chirac, for example, unabashedly honors Hezbollah's
Shaikyh Nasrallah, the same man who last month suggested that he
would welcome the return of all Jews to Israel "to save the trouble
of hunting them down later."
In Italian classrooms, political ethics are reversed.
Terrorism is
justified, but and defense of democracy is not. Military campaigns
are roundly condemned, even though it was the military and not
political appeasement that freed Western Europe from the worst
tyranny.

European arrogance has grown so great that even the most-ignorant
student emerging with a failing grade feels justified in mocking the
president of the United States.

I don't know whether the gap between Europe and America has
ever been so great. No one I know identifies himself as
pro-American. Despite recent waves of anti-Semitic and racist
violence, and Le Pen's strong showing in the French elections,
Europeans believe Americans to be racist, while they themselves are
culturally tolerant. Europeans believe themselves to be empathetic
while Americans are merciless and ruthless. They see no irony in the
fact that it is the United States that is standing with Iraqis and
Iranians against murderous dictators, while the European Union seeks to expand its
business ties to Saddam Hussein and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. They do not see any
problem with Mary Robinson's legitimization of suicide bombings, nor the European
Union's subsidization of the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade. For my European teachers,
Saddam is more a representative of a different culture than a dictator set on accumulating
weapons of mass destruction.

They demonize power and believe that the
underdog must always be right. Accordingly, in the Middle East, Israel's military prowess
makes the Jewish state worthy of contempt, and proponents of the slaughter of Israelis
and Jews worthy of honor.

Take a look at it. There's more and it's good.

As many of you know, Amram Mitzna, the new Labor Party leader, has proposed an immediate pullout from Gaza and evacuation of the settlements there. This would be a total disaster, as it only encourages terrorism. Don't believe me? Why not read what the leaders of Hamas say about how well they think terrorism is working.

How evil. How despicable. How Muslim.

If all the Palestinians are removed from the West Bank, Gaza and Israel proper, there will be nothing to prevent the Arabs from dropping a nuclear bomb on Israel. And believe me, the Arabs are working night and day to acquire a nuclear capability.

It's a conundrum.

Perhaps WE should declare Jihad on THEM.

Two American soldiers just shot in Kuwait by a police officer. KILL THEM ALL!

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Deus lo vult!

All you people screeming this morning about Bush that and Bush this, calling him a shrub (classless) and blaming the US for this are really making me laugh. Here is a newsfalsh - Israel is it's own country. That's right, Israel is free to do whatever the hell it feels is necessary to defend it's own people. If Sharon thinks by sucking up to Bush helps him and his nation then only Sharon is to blame. Not Bush, not Powell, not the US administration. The finger needs to be pointed back at him for not having the balls to make the tough decision to buck the US and do what he sees necessary. But he wont. He'll play it off like Bush has asked him to play nice and he will run with it. Bush is not to blame, Sharon is weak and he knows it.

Why not just forbid anyone to board a bus wearing more than a t-shirt? If it's cold you carry your coat for a couple of minutes. Have a soldier on each bus with orders to take a quick look inside any bag and have the passengers line up 100 ft. from the boarding point for the quick inspection.

Oh, I forgot; then kill Araflat, level Gaza, deport all Palestinians and rebuild the Temple.

122: That's assuming the Arab countries have enough concern for the Palestinians not to drop a nuke on Israel. Considering the Arab states treat the Palestinians like shit, I don't see their presence in Gaza and the West Bank as much of a deterrent.

In Larry Miller's article It gets hard when they cheer the story ends with the statement

They're not going anywhere. Neither are we

The point will soon be reached where Jews will no longer be saying that. If this happens the "Palestenians" will have nobody to blame but themselves. Their leaders for planning it, and their people for either agreeing or not having the courage to oppose it.

Short of an Israeli version of Sherman's march through the west bank, only the Arabs can change the way they do things. If they don't eventually WTS will be dug up and the surrounding Arab states will have a new outrage to pin on Israel, one they willing brought on to their brothers.

Oh, God.
Rachel weeps for her children.
Oh God.

On an angrier note, 'religion of peace' my fat, sorry @$$!!! These people wouldn't know peace if it walked up, introduced itself, shook their hands, stole their wallets, and punched them in the face!

Nur. I need to lie down.

Geepers #107 wrote

And lastly we can stop listening to their ceaseless whining about how humiliating it is living in the occupied territories. When their county is a failure, they will have only themselves to blame.

Lots of posts and no time
I am sorry to say because nobody likes to think these kind of thoughts but it is time to do some serious killing

something along the lines that makes the current blather of "massacres" and "horrors" seem a little more real

HG

re: 122

I have a feeling that any Arab nation that decided it was going to drop a nuke on Israel wouldn't give a nanosecond's thought about the Palestinians. The Palestinians are simply a convenience - first they're a way to distract the populations of their countries from their oppressive regimes, and second they're a way to justify violence and murder against the West (namely the US).

Their overall goal is the eradication of Israel ... if there was a magic button that, when pressed, killed every Israeli on the planet, I doubt that there is an Arab leader alive who would have to deliberate before punching it. If they vaporized the Palestinians in the process, that would be an added bonus since none of the Arab nations are particularly fond of them (ask Jordan why they don't take them in). A Palestinian was once interviewed and asked why he doesn't emigrate to Jordan or Saudi Arabia and he responded by saying, "No Arab nation wants us ... they think we are all terrorists and troublemakers."

The only thing that is stopping (and would stop) and Arab state from dropping a nuclear bomb on Israel is the knowledge that Israel (and most likely the US as well) would respond with nukes of their own ... and a lot more of them

W.

Blaming the Victims

The art and pomp of Euro Culture.

#19 #21 #22
Y'all are absolutely right. I'm totally sick after seeing this, and I'm totally sick of Bush condemning this crap in the most diplomatic terms possible. Its time for the US to start stomping out murderous scum like this. ALL the muderous scum. Those nations who believe in what is right, rather than in moral equivalency, will stand up and support us, and the rest can go hang themselves.

Can someone explain to me how this guy shows his face in public?

In other developments, senior Palestinian officials welcomed a call by Israel's new opposition leader Amram Mitzna to restart peace talks, saying they believed they could reach a peace settlement with Israel if the dovish ex-general is elected prime minister. But Arafat and some aides stopped short of a clear endorsement, apparently for fear of hurting Mitzna's chances in the upcoming elections.

Mitzna said he was encouraged by the response. "If the biggest of our enemies is congratulating me on my election, perhaps that is a sign that in the future there will be someone with whom to talk and something to talk about," he told Israel Radio.

This is the work of the people who are congratulating Mitzna.

The blast blew out the bus windows. A torso that had fallen over the side of the bus was covered with a white-and-blue checkered blanket. Sandwiches and schoolbooks lay scattered in the street.

ve

now please (new & improved)

"...i'm sick to the teeth of the news on the screen,
of the Hizbollah scum and Jihad the obscene,
whose men plant the bombs and then live feeling free,
to watch women and children be killed on t.v.

which satan delivered a child a death curse,
sanctified by some out of date verse,
i've not read the book so i cannot recite,
but i bet Salman Rushdie was just about right.

and what kind of G-d can this be anyway,
that you've got to prostrate to him five times a day,
with hate in your heart and a gun in your hand,
is force the only thing to understand.

and you can put a lead bullet clean through this giutar,
cos I'm not overjoyed with the story so far,
sharing the world with the nutters of G-d,
is as good as being six feet under the sod.

and the words that i've written they're all here to stay,
and these are the latest there are anyway,
and i am the prophet - so don't believe me,
i'm the same as the old ones except that i'm free
to give you a piece of my mind which is this
you're the worst of Jehovah's blind witless-nesses
with you're feet in the door of the deepest abyss
that is underneath the black cloud of islam"

The bodies of the 11 killed lie next the the bus in Jerusalem

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

A Policeman collects books from school children left at the scene

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

source(Walk4Israel)

The remains on the inside of the bus attacked in Jerusalem.

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

A Policeman carries a "doll knapsack" from the remains of the bus

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

source(Walk4Israel)

#135, Crill why is it the Bush administrations job to defend Israel? I think we are having a hard enough time defending ourselves. Why not the outrage directed at Sharon's government? Until the world stops depending on the US to do everything for them I'm afraid all this will continue. Israel and the US are working for the same goal but will get there very differently, until all you Bush bashers realize that you will continue to pull your hair out. Israel needs a leader who leads, not follows.

A Policewoman in tears at the scene of the bus attack

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

A woman being comforted by a Policeman at the scene

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

source(Walk4Israel)

Israel's military prowess
makes the Jewish state worthy of contempt, and proponents of the slaughter of Israelis
and Jews worthy of honor.

Since the Europeans have been able to hide behind American troops stationed in Europe for the last 50 years, their militaries have disintegrated into bureaucracies.
Israel on the other hand has been forced to develop and maintain their own weapons. Uzi, merkava tanks, Arrow missile defense system, 100% Israeli made spy satellite, Israeli nuclear.
Of course the Euroweenies are going to squeal. They’re so far behind now they don’t have a prayer to catch up in the next twenty years. The Arab countries are so far out of the main militarily they don’t have a prayer, but for “Allah to provide.”

All through school I use give anyone who wanted it my homework to copy. It used to piss the hell out of some people. I just laughed. I learned it, they didn’t. On the test (or at the job) you don’t get much reward for copying.
The Europeans should have told the American to go home, we’ll take care of our own, but they took the easy way out – they copied the homework, now that its test time they want to be sick on the day of the test, so maybe they can get the answers off someone else. That’s when I really laughed.

137: That would be Roy Harper, The Black Cloud of Islam (slightly modified). A beautiful song by a brilliant musician--and spot on.

BJW,

I agree 110%

An Israeli policewoman is comforted at the scene of a Palestinian suicide bomb attack in Jerusalem November 21, 2002

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

source(Walk4Israel)

BJW #125,

You're really right. And more's the pity.

It doesn't help that Bush doesn't condemn the genocide bombers, that he doesn't call a spade a spade. But it's probably harder for him to do so as long as the Israelis have a government which is unwilling to take the necessary action. Quite frankly, if Bush were to say that the paleostinians don't deserve a state and the Israeli left complained, what kind of a position would that put Bush in? Sharon needs to take clear and decisive action.

Many Israelis are opposed to transfer. My mother is a Moroccan-Israeli, so, like hl, we have firsthand experience with Arabs when they are the dominant power. While transfer may be simply moving the borders out, there are several reasons that this is desirable:

1. At its narrowest point, Israel (ex-Judea and Samaria) is only 9 miles (15 km) across. Tanks can cross this distance rather quickly.
2. While Ahmed-6 (or any other) rockets may be fired from Jordan, it would be a lot harder to hit population centers from Amman then it would be from Gilo.
3. The Jordanians have cracked down on anti-Israeli terror in the recent past. There was an incident in the past year (don't recall when) when they found a terrorist trying to launch rockets into Israel. Needless to say, the terrorist is dead.
4. States can be held accountable for their actions. If Egypt and Jordan launch missiles into Tel Aviv, they might wake up to find a lack of Cairo or Amman.
5. The nuclear weapons argument is immaterial. The Arabs couldn't give two hoots about sending a couple more paleostinians to their virgins, or else they wouldn't be providing so much in cash.
6. The terrain of Judea and Samaria is mountainous, and so ideal for stopping tanks. It is also in the direction from which hostile aircraft and/or missiles are likely to come (Iran/Iraq).
7. The border with Jordan and Egypt would be a much shorter line than the current border. Since the Green Line curves and Gaza juts into Israeli territory, a line would present a shorter border. This border could be manned with fewer troops, and more troops could be kept in reserve or used against Syria.

That said, the transfer option is impractical for a few reasons that I would like to try and refute:

1. Humane concerns. What separates us from them. However, it seems that world condemnation will rain down on Israel regardless of its actions. Israelis will be called Nazis by Europeans no matter whether there is a Jenin "massacre" or a Jenin massacre. Furthermore, since transfer does not involve the actual killing of the paleostinians, and transfers of populations have successfully reduced fighting across many borders, it seems like a relatively humane manner to solve the problem. Some examples of population exchanges include: Turkey-Greece, India-Pakistan, and Germany-Sudenten Czechoslovakia.
2. Israeli politics. As nomad33 has pointed out, it's a matter of how many mega-terror attacks are needed to push Israelis in this direction. Sooner or later, they will happen, and mores the pity. Instead of waiting for them, it may be possible to convince the polity to vote to begin transfer. The Moledet party has had an uptick in its popularity, IIRC, so it may be possible that the Israeli polity will not be the gradually boiled lobster.
3. Jordanian and Egyptian rejection of paleostinian refugees. For Jordan, it is possible that an economic consideration could be made. The most sustainable example would be giving them control over the Basra oil fields in Iraq. Another one would be to transfer aid from Israel to Jordan, which would have the side benefit of getting the anti-Israeli Americans to cease and desist calling for ending aid to Israel, since it would be ended. Perhaps, in order to maintain American defense production, some other arrangement could be made. In the case of Egypt, it becomes more complicated. It is possible that the Americans might be willing to cooperate if the Israelis had shown resolve in cleaning up Judea and Samaria. Then the US might cut funding to Egypt, perhaps using the overt excuse of their having violating the Camp David accords, while the tete-a-tete reason is explained in private.

I look forward to your responses.

#118: you are absolutely right. What makes a killing 'murder' is the state of mind. Warfare is not murder unless the soldier kills because he gets off on it. Defending your country is not murder because each death prevents more deaths further down the line.
I do not believe in murder. I am, however, willing and able to kill anyone who comes between me and my right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I'd join the IDF, but that would mean giving up my American citizenship, and that would break my grandparents' hearts. I don't think my immediate family would mind so much, but my extended family has a military tradition, and I have a great deal of respect for that. So for now, I do what I can here.
Nur.

Let's respond by destroying the mosque in the town where the bomber came from

Harvard re-invites Irish poet with rabid anti-Israel views

Tom Paulin, who has made statements comparing US-born settlers in the West Bank with Nazis, and saying they "should be shot dead."

In April, Paulin, quoted in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram Weekly, said of American Jewish settlers: "I think they are Nazis, racists; I feel nothing but hatred for them."

In the same interview, Paulin said he understands "how suicide bombers feel," but suggested guerrilla warfare would be more effective because attacks on civilians could create a sense a solidarity.

In his poem "Killed in the Crossfire," he writes of "another little Palestinian boy in trainers jeans and a white teeshirt" killed by the "Zionist SS."

Wow, how poetic...

"Free speech was a principle that needed upholding here," English professor Peter Sacks said Wednesday night. "This was a clear reaffirmation that the department stood strongly by the First Amendment."

Is that Free Speech...?

Or Speech to Freely Kill Jews?

Minstrel,

You do not have to give up US citizenship to Join the IDF or US Army.

The IDF is an ally not a enemy of the US and both the USA and Israel offer Dual Citizenships.

There are many US and Israeli dual citizens who have both countries army reserve unit status.

Religion of tolerance:

[Link: www.worldtribune.com...]

Ariel #146, you are dead on. No matter what Israel does it will be cause for great condemnation. So why not do what is necessary for the survival of Israel? How in the hell does Sharon not see this? It's a clear as crystal. Look at Bush. He is doing what is right for the USA, no matter who screams bloody murder. I know it's not fast enough for a lot of folks here but he will do it. I can't say the same for Sharon. He just looks like he has no clue on what to do and lets his decisions be made in Washington. What a shame.

126 Jim Bob -

I thought the same thing. Why is there no security check for buses? Each bus should have one IDF who does at least a visual check of all 15-45 year old males (shudder, that would be profiling), even if that means just lifting up their shirt.

And how much are they paying busdrivers in Israel? Who would keep doing that job? Are these the most heroic people in Israel?

God Dammit GI Joe!

I my eyes just welled up in my office after looking at the above picture of a policewoman crying.

I am a 31 year old, ex IDF commando.

I am a bad mother fucker, with all due respect to supposed bravado.

I am not supposed to cry.

Fuck these people.

AG in Houston,

Its not easy to see those helpless people waddle in their own deaths.

Its sadly pathetic to see such inaction from such a brave people when confronted by such horrors.

I hate the USA's inaction most of the time bit I dread the Israelis inaction all of the time.

Ariel,

Jordanian and Egyptian rejection of paleostinian refugees.

I agree with much of what you say.

A minor quibble: I believe it would be easier if Jordan became Palestine rather than beg it, as Jordan, to accept palestinians. The integrity of the hashemite throne in Jordan is not important, either politically or strtegically, as sooner or later, when this king dies, is deposed or assasinated, or constitutionaly side-lined, Jordan becomes a palestinian state by virtue of its majority 'palestinian' population.

The US can accelerate the unhelpful strategic existence of the jordanian king by transferrring him to Iraq, or to Saudi Arabia, where the family has more legitimate roots.

If the US won't do it (and it won't), then it may be in Israel's best interest to somehow help the situation along. It would correct the histrical injustice of 75% of 'palestine' going to a family of Saudi intelopers installed by the British, while the jews were left to struggle for a viable fragment with the remains of the mandate.

It would also correct a strategic blunder made by Israel in propping up the Jordanian monarchy during the civil war that nearly toppled it in favour of the pal majority.

Had they let him fall, there would now be a palestine, viable, with an incentive to peacefully co-exist with Israel, and an address to assign reponsiblity to for any pal violence.

...

#140 BJW
Because its THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
You think that the only folks Hamas wants to kill are Israelis? They would kill all of us infidels if they had the chance. Every terrorist is our enemy, whether they hail from Indonesia, Chechnya, or Gaza. Isn't that what the whole 'global war on terror' is about, anyway?

#153 wordwarp,

Your solution sounds good in theory but it is impossible in practice. Busses are the main public transportation in Israel. Putting a soldier on each and every bus is a very good idea but unfortunately is impossible to implement.

As for your question about the bus drivers' salary, and how they could keep doing that 'dangerous job', well my uncle is a bus driver inside the occupied territories and he's barely making it through the month. and about it being dangerous: same can be said about waitresses, mothers at home, students in universities, people going to pray on a Friday night, shoppers in a mall, people simply walking on the streets or driving a car, etc, etc...

I guess that - without trying to compliment myself - but just by looking and living these facts I can say that all of us here living in Israel are pretty heroic right now.

Bush's diplo-speak hinders the IDF from doing their job. By exerting pressure on Israel to treat the Palestinians nicely, we simply aid the murderous bombers. Getting rid of this doesn't mean that American troops have to clear the West Bank, it means that Bush needs to tell the Israelis to take care of the problem, and then support them 100% regardless of 'world opinion'.

GI JOE (#155)

I hate the USA's inaction most of the time bit I dread the Israelis inaction all of the time.

Here, Here.

Tisk, tisk, tisk, (or Fisk, Fisk, Fisk) you shallow unelightend neanderthals. Now is not the time for violence. What we need are more fat women posing nude for PEACE!

Too inhuman to finds the words to express. If I had to say something that these Palestinians would actually understand I would have to resort to literally "barking" at them.

I offer my sincere condolences to all our Israeli friends.

You have been too damn nice to these animals.

#159 -

If those of you living in Israel continue to elect the Labor party or even Likudniks that want to make 'concessions', you're not heroic at all, you're just giving your lives and your country away.

#146 Ariel

I think, and everyone would probably agree that transfer is one of the more desired solutions for Israelis, just as us swimming in the sea would be the most desired solution for the Pals. However, this does not stop the fact that it will not happen, ever, unless by force and without consideration. to your points:

Israel is narrow, it was prior to 67 as well, of course its better to have a larger distance, but on account of transfering millions of people and the consequences that that in itself might have-- im not sure.

As to Achmed 6 or better rockets, more difficult maybe but certainly far from difficult.

The Jordanian royal family has a difficult time as is contaning the fanatic Palestinian elements which make up most of its country. It will not be willing even for money to absorb 3 million more fanatics who have just been expelled(as far as they are concerned) for the second time. they feel threatned as is, imagine how they would feel once 3 million angry Pals believe they have just conspired with the zionists to have them removed from there homes.

If states can be accountable, why not support a Pal state? Much of the left feels this as a strong argument. For example why doesnt Syria who believes we occupy its Golan heights mess with us anymore.. Because of exactly what you said, for fear there will be no damascus. Can we not apply the same to the Pals once they have there own state? Of course now they have no state to lose.

in any case no one argues that there are benefits to having more territory, shit, if we had all of jordan that would even be better etc etc. But it wont happen.. we will not transfer no matter the benefits of it(at least for the many years to come even if there devastating terror attacks).. So whats the next best and reasonable solution from there?

My sympathies, once again, to the victims, their friends and families, and those who have to live with these arab atrocities.

A question for those with EW, ECM, or demolitions experience.

I've read often that wires have been spotted on the persons of these genocide/homicide bombers. This leads me to believe that blasting caps are used to detonate the explosives.

Wouldn't it be possible to use directed RF energy to cause the caps to detonate prematurely?

I've seen NOTAMs by the FAA regarding the hazards to personnel and aircraft within a large area near the local over the horizon backscatter radar facility. I'm not proposing the use of a large phased array radar to counter the terrorists, but would a regular P-3 EW or ECM overflight of the 'terrortories' act as a deterrent to the use of electrically detonated explosives? Would it be practical to develop a vehicle or checkpoint mounted system to accomplish the same?

Thanks,

Peter

Wordwarp - Glad you agree.

CA - You mean there are more buses than available soldiers? Buses are the targets of opportunity right now. Get some armed civilian volunteers then. As they used to say at the Fort Benning Infantry School, "Do something! Doing anything is better than doing nothing."

Another glorious victory for those brave Palestinian freedom fighters. They're even braver this week--taking on schoolchildren--than they were last week, when they shot 4 and 5-year old toddlers.

Disgusting.

Scorched earth policies are the only thing (other than divine intervention) that will put this sort of thing down. Sherman's march to the sea should be made to look like a Sunday afternoon stroll in the park. I don't care if the Israelis have to kill to kill 1 or a hundred million.

Israel has at its command the ability to erase from the face of the earth most of Egypt's population centers. Nuking the Aswan High Dam would flush the toilet. Time for some old fashioned extortion (you guys have a nice country and wouldn't want anything bad to happen to it now would you?)

Israel, please fight back. Do what is needed to protect yourself.

Crill please explain to me how Bush is hurting the IDF from doing it's job? I would bet my life that Bush has never called Sharon and said that the IDF was forbidden from doing its job. Even if he did say that why wouldn't Sharon tell him to fuck off anyways. Could you imagine if some leader called the president and said no, you can't defend your people. He would get laughed at to his face. I know its' the right thing to do to kill these vermin wherever they are but the US has to look out for the American people first. Let me repeat that. American interests come first. If Bush thinks that by holding Sharon back helps American interests in the long run that is fine, but there is nothing saying Sharon has to listen to him. Sharon is weak weak weak. Until he learns to say no to Bush, he wil continue to get his people killed. He has to realize that Israel's interest and US policy dont always go together like hand in glove. Bash Bush all you want, I'm just glad he can see the forest through the trees. Sharon couldn't see his hand if it hit him across his face.

HL -- What I am trying to say, is that a wall will give you no protection at all. It will just turn Israel into another ghetto, with terrorists inside as well as outside of the wall.

It is simply a bad idea and a useless waste of resources.

And I most certainly do NOT think that the Land of Israel ends at the 1949 cease-fire line.

KIRK #169
___

My thoughts exactly. Put the Aswan dam into play. Put Mecca into play. Put Teheran into play for funding the Hizbollah. Hizbollah is just aching to strut their stuff when we make our (USA) Iraqi offensive. If they do rocket and attack Northern Israel I would love to see Iran and Syria suffer for sponsoring them

Apart from the strategic pitfalls, those who think that a Pal State would solve Israel's diplomatic problems fail to appreciate the basis of support for the Pals.

Attacks from a Pal State would no more justify israeli military action than it enjoys now. The Palestinian government would continue on its course of implausible denial and blame it on extremeists. The world would never allow its crowned jewel, the "democratic" Islamic republic of Arafatistan to be invaded by aggressor Israel for the acts of people who it does not control.

We have precedent for this: Lebanon. Israel was forced to invade Lebanon to fight the PLO and other Islamic terrorists who were launching attacks from Southern Lebanon. Not a day went by that the UN didn't condemn this act of destroying the sovreignty and integrity of another country. How will Israel be able to invade the more beloved Palestinian country?

The theory behind this approach has some logical appeal, and in a perfect world, Israel would have the right to protect itself. But you see the problem is not the status of the Palestian entity, but rather the existence of the zionist entity. So long as Israel exists, it may not defend itself against the Palestinians in the eyes of the world, and it may only defend itself against invasion until the Arabs say uncle. Then things must go back to how they were before the Arabs invaded. It is a sick cycle of history, and one that no one should fail to appreciate or fail to remember.

The terrorist's father is thrilled, simply thrilled at the actions of his brave son.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

#110 nomad33,

Oh, now I see what you mean - "transfer".

No, I mean whatever it takes. When I say they need to be removed, I do not necessarily mean that they should be moved. Dead is good too.
Let me make this very clear. I don't cry for dead Arabs.

It took a great deal of terrorism for Israelies to be able to "forgive" themselves for collateral damage in the assasination of Salah Shahade. [remember the one ton bomb?]
There are still those [Israelies!] who think we've crossed the line that day, and they are *quite* vocal about it.

I remember that bomb quite well. So? If there are Israelis who feel guilty for it, then maybe the terrorists would be in good company surrounding themselves with those Israelis who haven't got the guts to destroy evil without remorse.
I don't care about the collateral damage from that bomb. What was it 11 or 12? Well guess what, those f***'n animals evened up the score today, so all the stupid Israeli lefties can rest knowing that justice was done today for the "poor Arabs."

Among Israelies, it would take a mega terror attack, no - make that at least several mega terror attacks to even begin to debate such a concept in an open, serious fashion.

Well, if that's what it's going to take (G-d forbid). It looks like that's what Israel is asking for (G-d forbid).
All the Israeli lefties can declare "we tried" when they are scraping their murdered and mutilated children off of the asphalt.

Mitzna said he was encouraged by the response. "If the biggest of our enemies is congratulating me on my election, perhaps that is a sign that in the future there will be someone with whom to talk and something to talk about," he told Israel Radio.

Firing up the ol' Ouija Board, it took me just minutes to receive these words of wisdom for Mr. Mitzna, from a distinguished statesman who crossed over some years back...

P.S. Apologies in advance to the girl LGFers!

No democracy in the world is, or would ever be, expected to endure what the United States or Israel has and show “restraint”.

In history, there have been situations that have clearly shown there is no solution but a military one.

This has gone beyond sensible Westerners debating what should or shouldn't be done.

These people are laughing at us. We need to decimate their countries, such as we did to Germany and Japan in WWII. Their book - the Koran - in both the United States and Israel, should be considered hate speech akin to Mein Kompf and judged openly as such by the U.S. government. All Muslim and/or Arab immigration should be restricted. American military forces should besiege the United Nations with knockout gas, and every diplomat should be expelled. Every American mosque should be viewed as a stronghold for potential terrorists and a center for the dissemination of genocidal ideas that are anathema to humanity's existence, and should be bugged and monitored accordingly. At the first talk of "rising up against the infidels", the offending mosque should be closed and their members exiled to Muslim lands where they will be aided/required to construct westernized societies or suffer further destruction by Western military forces. All Muslim-lobbying groups in Washington (CAIR, etc.), should be treated as hate organizations akin to the KKK and Arian Nation, and every elected official in Congress should return monies received from such groups or be tried for treason. Travel to and from ALL Muslim countries should be outlawed, as it has been with Cuba, under penalty of fine and/imprisonment.

For those of you who say “settlements", I say “Oslo”.

These peoples' ideas are completely incompatible with Western values.

Their followers brought this war to us.

It's time to fight back.

#164 BigBad wrote -

If those of you living in Israel continue to elect the Labor party or even Likudniks that want to make 'concessions', you're not heroic at all, you're just giving your lives and your country away.

Where do you live? and thanks for the support

#167 Jim Bob wrote -

You mean there are more buses than available soldiers? Buses are the targets of opportunity right now. Get some armed civilian volunteers then. As they used to say at the Fort Benning Infantry School, "Do something! Doing anything is better than doing nothing."

yes thats exactly what I mean.. This is a small country with a small army, and when you have terror war launched against it there are other missions most of the soldiers have to deal with. Busses are in general privately owned, it is not the job of soldiers to secure them. As to busses being the targets of opportunity right now, this is not 100% true. Last week 2 kids killed in their homes... a week before in a shopping mall, and not to mention a few days ago a woman driving in her own car.. In any case I agree something should be done, but it is up to the bus services to provide security if they think it is needed. And it IS needed.

hl #165,

I think, and everyone would probably agree that transfer is one of the more desired solutions for Israelis, just as us swimming in the sea would be the most desired solution for the Pals.

Yes, the difference is that the Israelis have the capability to accomplish said solution. The paleostinians will do it as soon as they can.

Israel is narrow, it was prior to 67 as well, of course its better to have a larger distance, but on account of transfering millions of people and the consequences that that in itself might have-- im not sure.

Quite frankly, they have left little choice, if true peace is to be had.

It is not always better to have larger distance. If peaceful neighbors can be found, trade can actually enrich both sides. Furthermore, a distance which is sufficient to be defensible is desirable in order to:
1) discourage Arab attacks
2) allow Israel the strategic depth to respond

As to Achmed 6 or better rockets, more difficult maybe but certainly far from difficult.

I'm not sure about that. I suspect, from my science background, that, as the missiles get closer to their range limit, their accuracy will drop. I would invite any of the military experts (Wayne, AG, etc) who are more knowledgeable than me to comment.

The Jordanian royal family has a difficult time as is contaning the fanatic Palestinian elements which make up most of its country. It will not be willing even for money to absorb 3 million more fanatics who have just been expelled(as far as they are concerned) for the second time. they feel threatned as is, imagine how they would feel once 3 million angry Pals believe they have just conspired with the zionists to have them removed from there homes.

Well, if they are not willing to feed them, they can just pull a Black September on them. That will moderate whatever Palestinians make there way into Jordan like nothing else would.

Again, control of the Basra oil fields could make the Hashemites so wealthy that they could invest in serious security forces, perhaps with US help.

If states can be accountable, why not support a Pal state? Much of the left feels this as a strong argument.

Because the paleostinians have successfully cast themselves as the victims for so long that any attack on a sovereign Palestine will be met with absolute resistance from the world. They will ask themselves why they bothered to try and create a peace if Israel is just going to destroy the result of those efforts.

For example why doesnt Syria who believes we occupy its Golan heights mess with us anymore..

Actually, I believe that the rockets from the Syrian proxy Hezbollah are falling in the Shebaa farms area. They haven't made an overt move for Norther Israel, but that doesn't mean they won't support terrorism.

in any case no one argues that there are benefits to having more territory, shit, if we had all of jordan that would even be better etc etc.

Not really. Either Israel would have to control a large, hostile population, or the Israeli population would have to be spread over a depopulated Jordan. Neither solution will make Israel more defensible. Furthermore, Jordan's borders are with many hostile countries, and are very long borders. It would take a significantly larger IDF to do this. Perhaps if the entire Jordanian population became Jewish, but I don't think that's realistic.

But it wont happen.. we will not transfer no matter the benefits of it(at least for the many years to come even if there devastating terror attacks).. So whats the next best and reasonable solution from there?

I don't know. What is your next best and reasonable solution? In my opinion, transfer is the best reasonable one.

#171 Dorothy

What I am trying to say, is that a wall will give you no protection at all. It will just turn Israel into another ghetto, with terrorists inside as well as outside of the wall.

so what do you propose, killing all Palestinians? leaving it the way it is now. If you border hostile neighbors it is necessary to have a wall. its simple.. whats this Israel will be a ghetto? just because it has a wall on its border instead of having an open border? makes no sense..

#170 BJW
You're right. America can't help if the Isreali government isn't willing to stop this. I suppose I'm speaking more from frustration and anger today than from rational thought. Thanks for your patience. I hate waking up to this sort of stuff on the morning news.

#171 Dorthy,

The wall can be moved as required.

As long as the wall is just the beginning and not the end it will help.

#179 Ariel

Yes, the difference is that the Israelis have the capability to accomplish said solution. The paleostinians will do it as soon as they can.

How should the Israelis transfer 3 million Palestinians--Many armed? im not sure if you mean israel has the capability with force, which it might but not without thousands and thousands of casualities, which would end up amounting to a genocide as opposed to transfer.. And if you mean political capability than that of course is not true until you show me Jordan and Egypts readiness to take the Pals in and the Pals readiness to get on busses and move.

Quite frankly, they have left little choice, if true peace is to be had.

who is talking about true peace.. there will not be true peace with transfer or without. and certainly not with. You really believe that the 3 million Pals who are forcefully transferred will move to Jordan and then decide to be peaceful with Israel?

I'm not sure about that. I suspect, from my science background, that, as the missiles get closer to their range limit, their accuracy will drop. I would invite any of the military experts (Wayne, AG, etc) who are more knowledgeable than me to comment.

are you trying to say that yo udo not belive the Pals will be able to obtain rockets to hit Israel if they live in Jordan? They will just call up there brother in the Hizbullah.. and in any case these people are learning quickly at how to develop more accurate rockets and weapons. Eilat for one could be a wonderful target. And if they cant do it today, they will be able to tomorrow, have no doubts.

As to your dream of the Jordanians agreeeing with the Israelis to transfer 3 million Pal, most fanatics to Jordan, i think it is exactly that a dream. But i guess time will tell. And imagine the als attaack from Jordan and JOrdan does nothing, then what? attack Jordan?

Because the paleostinians have successfully cast themselves as the victims for so long that any attack on a sovereign Palestine will be met with absolute resistance from the world. They will ask themselves why they bothered to try and create a peace if Israel is just going to destroy the result of those efforts.

so what?

Actually, I believe that the rockets from the Syrian proxy Hezbollah are falling in the Shebaa farms area. They haven't made an overt move for Norther Israel, but that doesn't mean they won't support terrorism.

why havent thye made an Overt move? why use this proxy group? they have something to lose... and hopefully soon they will lose it.

Not really. Either Israel would have to control a large, hostile population, or the Israeli population would have to be spread over a depopulated Jordan. Neither solution will make Israel more defensible. Furthermore, Jordan's borders are with many hostile countries, and are very long borders. It would take a significantly larger IDF to do this. Perhaps if the entire Jordanian population became Jewish, but I don't think that's realistic.

I was talking about the land without the populaiton.. and are you trying to tell me that if you had all this land between tel aviv and Iraq that was under your control you would have a harder time defending yourself against Arab attacks.. Im not sure.. I would ask security expert on that.

I don't know. What is your next best and reasonable solution? In my opinion, transfer is the best reasonable one.

put up a wall.. not much different than transfer only closer border. the outcome the same.. complete seperation.. And i am not against as Uzi Landau says being on both sides of the wall. Limiting attacks with the help of the wall , yet taking army actions on the other side of the wall against terrorists.

re: Bush's response to the attack. It was too mild. And whoever above said that this is the wrong time to be talking about a Palestinian state is exactly right. Bush should have just said "this is the murder of innocents by barbarians. to think a young man straps a bomb and nails to himself and murders as many jews as he can -- and believes this is what God wants him to do, that's just sick." and let it alone. "Peace process" is a joke and can only happen when the current war -- started by the arabs 2 years ago -- is over. I'm not familiar with Jerusalem enough to say for sure, but this can't be against the "occupation" because don't the Jews have a right to be in Jerusalem, the holiest city to their faith and their historic capital back in the days of David etc.? This isn't an attack in an occupied area, is what I'm trying to say.

By the way, I saw President Bush speak at Truman High School in Independence, Missouri on August 16, 2001. He said "we have to support our allies. we have to support Israel." I don't believe he is supporting Israel right now, and I wrote him a letter saying that after the Hebrew University bombing that left 5 Americans dead. Israel is under attack by those who want her destroyed, so we should let Israel defend herself. Besides, Israel is fighting the same enemies we fight, so if we let them do it it just makes it easier for us. Someone else above said that world reaction to Israel is always the same: they always assume the worst anyway (e.g. Jenin), so this is in many ways a license to win the war because of the "boy who cried wolf" phenomenon.

hl,

Forgot to mention something.

If states can be accountable, why not support a Pal state? Much of the left feels this as a strong argument.

The other problem is that creating such a state would be a de facto demonstration that terrorism works. Just as the withdrawal from Lebanon didn't stop attacks on Shebaa Farms, creation of a paleostinian state would only embolden them.

I agree with most of you, GWB is frigging useless! Is he stupid or what?

"religion of peace"

"partners in peace"

"war on terrorism"

I just try to close my eyes and tell myself: ''He's keeping his friends close and his enemies closer... He's keeping his friends close and his enemies closer... He's keeping his friends close and his enemies closer..."

At least, I hope to god that's what GWB is doing every time he makes kissy with the Sauds, et al.

Here's the only story from this bombing that made me smile. Apologies to anyone who's posted it already. From Fox News:

JERUSALEM — The back of the bus is safest, an Israeli 10th grader remembers thinking to himself, casually calculating the daily risk of living in Jerusalem as he stepped on a city bus and headed to school. That bit of caution may have saved the life of Maor Kimche, 15, who was wounded Thursday when a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up at the front of a bus packed with high school students, soldiers and morning commuters. . . .

The boy lay calmly in a bed in the pediatric surgery wing. His bleached hair was gelled and spiky. A friend from school held his hand.

He remembered seeing a classmate named Shiran knocked to the floor of the bus. "Suddenly, it was black and smoky. There were people on the floor. Everything was bloody," Kimche said. It was unclear if Shiran had survived.

Kimche added matter-of-factly that he'd still go to school by bus. "How else will I get to school?" he asked.

That's one tough little Jew. God bless him.

Israel must not give an inch of territory to the bloody Palis. Do not reward this barbarity. And shame on any Israeli who is willing to negotiate with these terrorists. The Palis have totally forfeited any legit claims anyone thinks they once had. A Palestinan state? These people are totally incapable of any kind of civilization.

Time for doing two things.

Set up "plausible deniability" - establish a "wet works" group in Israel that goes out and bombs civilian Pals anytime Israeli civilians get terror bombed. Bombings that double or triple the number of civvie deaths suffered by Israel. When the Pals start screaming about the "deliberate slaughter" of their innocents...Israel regretfully admits that there is "some rogue element" out to kill Pals wholesale anytime the Pals do a terror attack, that the Israeli government "double-deplores" eye-for-an-eye behavior...but urges the Pals NOT to play into the "rogues hands" by doing suicide bombings since no Pal civvie is now safe from reprisals by these "rogues".

The other is to think about what needs to be done to change the staus quo. Killing Arafat certainly would...but the little toad prays for just that...being the ultimate Pal martyr...revered for centuries if it happens. Better to go into Ramallah, scoop up the whole Pal leadership, and parachute their asses into the Sinai Desert. The Settlements have to be rethought. A freeze on them would not cost Israel anything, and might gain some bennie points to subdue criticism if harsher counter-terror actions must be undertaken. Brent Scowcoft had a Washington Post op-ed piece

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

#183 Hl

How should the Israelis transfer 3 million Palestinians--Many armed? im not sure if you mean israel has the capability with force, which it might but not without thousands and thousands of casualities, which would end up amounting to a genocide as opposed to transfer.. And if you mean political capability than that of course is not true until you show me Jordan and Egypts readiness to take the Pals in and the Pals readiness to get on busses and move.

In "The Sword and the Olive - a Critical History of the I.D.F.", the author says that actually, Israel's military force has been holding back so much, that people have forgotten what they're capable of. He claims that the expulsion would only ltake a couple of days, and that it wouldn't be as hard as people think. He also hypothesizes that if Sharon stays in power - that that's what is going to happen, and it's probably already been planned. I think I agree with him, and trust his judgement, being that the book was updated in the last 18 months or so. You might want to check it out. You can actually read a few pages on Amazon.com.

#189 Rambutan
___

Works for me buddy! Let Pallies be terrorized the exact same way the Jews of Israel are. You said:

"Set up "plausible deniability" - establish a "wet works" group in Israel that goes out and bombs civilian Pals anytime Israeli civilians get terror bombed. Bombings that double or triple the number of civvie deaths suffered by Israel. When the Pals start screaming about the "deliberate slaughter" of their innocents...Israel regretfully admits that there is "some rogue element" out to kill Pals wholesale anytime the Pals do a terror attack, that the Israeli government "double-deplores" eye-for-an-eye behavior...but urges the Pals NOT to play into the "rogues hands" by doing suicide bombings since no Pal civvie is now safe from reprisals by these "rogues"."

Religion of Peace Update

The bomber's father, Azmi Hilail, said he was pleased with his son.

"Our religion says we are proud of him until the day of resurrection," Abu Hilail said. "This is a challenge to the Zionist enemies."

#191
Agreed. I'm tired of the bureaucrats, the experts and the arm-chair quarterbacks spouting off about what the "real" problem is and what needs to be done to solve it. The only thing the PALs understand is lights out. I say it's high time Israel took off the gloves and started treating this disease with the retaliatory ferrocity it deserves.

#187 NC It made me cry. And made me very very mad

From Ha'aretz:

Fearing entry of IDF troops into the city, Palestinian security forces in Bethlehem leave their positions (Israel Radio)

What cowards! What spineless slugs to kill little children with a bomb and then scurry away and act "oppressed".

EU envoy Moratinos says in response to J`lem attack: I think we need to tell the Palestinians enough is enough (Channel 2)

I won't hold my breath, but it's good to see someone has some sense.

Now the Arab garbage start claiming "credit."

Two Groups Claim Israel Bus Attack
[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

I just saw Foxnews interview the Hamas spokesman, the smug little a-hole.. so I shot off this e-mail:

Thank you for not going easy on the Hamas spokesman. It's often tough to add insult to injury as other networks let these criminals come on TV to gloat (unchallenged) about their success and reasoning for killing children.

But, while I understand the whole "Fair and Balanced" credo, is it really appropriate to award the specific targeting of civilians with air time on your show/network? These murderous thugs just destroyed the lives of hundreds of people - should they really be given a platform to discuss the political motivations behind their murders while the bodies are still warm? Rewarding this type of violence will only breed more of it.

Just as any Arab will tell you that the Munich Massacre was successful for the television coverage it received, our media here is furthering their success by giving these people a platform based on violence against civilians.

Please don't reward terror by affording these people a chance to discuss political motivations behind these attacks.

hl #183,

And if you mean political capability than that of course is not true until you show me Jordan and Egypts readiness to take the Pals in and the Pals readiness to get on busses and move.

Simply speaking, it is no longer the Israeli problem. They put the paleostinians on the border, and the paleostinians have the choice. Walk into Jordan or sit there. If the Jordanians don't let them in, it'll make the myth of Arab brotherhood a little bit easier to disregard.

You really believe that the 3 million Pals who are forcefully transferred will move to Jordan and then decide to be peaceful with Israel?

I do believe this. I believe that they will do so, because they will have no choice. The Jordanians are currently conducting a round-up of Islamic fundamentalists which is quite bloody. I don't doubt that they would do the same for the paleostinian brothers.

are you trying to say that yo udo not belive the Pals will be able to obtain rockets to hit Israel if they live in Jordan? They will just call up there brother in the Hizbullah.. and in any case these people are learning quickly at how to develop more accurate rockets and weapons. Eilat for one could be a wonderful target. And if they cant do it today, they will be able to tomorrow, have no doubts.

Yes, but would I rather have them do it from further away or from closer? In my opinion, it would be better for the missiles to come from further from the population centers. The missiles would have a higher chance of being shot down and would have a lower chance of hitting their targets.

In any case, the Jordanians will be aware of the benefits of peace with Israel, as they have shown themselves to be. They will probably prevent Hizbullah-style attacks across the border.

why havent thye made an Overt move? why use this proxy group? they have something to lose... and hopefully soon they will lose it.

Good point. I suspect that it has to do with them preparing for a massive attack when the world is distracted by the US attacking Iraq. But I could be wrong.

put up a wall.. not much different than transfer only closer border. the outcome the same.. complete seperation

The problem with a wall is that the wall would have to cover an extremely large amount of territory. The paleostinian and Israeli communities interdigitate all along the Green Line. It would be very hard to build a wall that would achieve complete separation.

Assuming that it would be possible, the amount of wall that would have to be patrolled is considerably greater than that if the Jordan River formed the wall. The Jordan River is a straight line (pretty much), and also pretty difficult to cross. Furthermore, a wall on the Israeli side would make it pretty hard to infiltrate.

Maine's Michael #156,

First of all, kudos to you, for long advocating an idea that I have come to believe is the only solution.

A minor quibble: I believe it would be easier if Jordan became Palestine rather than beg it, as Jordan, to accept palestinians. The integrity of the hashemite throne in Jordan is not important, either politically or strtegically, as sooner or later, when this king dies, is deposed or assasinated, or constitutionaly side-lined, Jordan becomes a palestinian state by virtue of its majority 'palestinian' population.

I would have to disagree. The Hashemite king has shown himself to be quite willing to put down the paleostinians if they try anything funny. And that, I think, is a good thing. I'm not sure that a Palestinian state would stop terror. I do think that a Hashemite state would.

The only angel who ever spoke to Muhammed was the angel of death. These people have to be totally wiped out.

#68
"so, will you ask, what is the problem then? well, simply, we are NOT barbarians (unfortunately!) otherwise all of our problems would have been solved by now. "

But we Americans are - or at least we can be.
If Hamas or any other Palestininan group does any killing on American soil they'll get a quick introduction to the true meaning of "Jacksonian" foreign policy.

I am surprised to read posts here saying things like "I am losing respect for Israel for not defending itself properly."

In case you have not got it yet, it is the government of the USA who tells Israel exactly how far she can go with the Palestinians.

This is not a question of approval or hurt feelings - if Israel started to transfer the Palestinians then GW Bush would order military intervention to stop it. This may be a hard fact to accept but it's true. There's also the small matter of the all-out war with the Arab world that this would necessitate, too.

This might change with different circumstances. But if you want to see Israel take tougher action I suggest you direct your complaints to the Oval Office, not Ariel Sharon.

Don't worry everyone - all is well.

I just read that Kofi Annan condemned the bombing "in the strongest possible terms"

I bet the Paleos feared that he might condemn the bombing in the weakest possible terms. Boy, were they wrong.

I meant the Paleos hoped...

Ahh, you know what I mean.

To those of you who are in favor of transfer, I agree with you. And logistically it wouldn't be any great problem to kick them out, at least the ones in the West Bank into Jordan. To those of you who blame Israelis and Sharon for not having the balls to do it , you miss the point.

Like I said physically it can be done, and I'm sure that the majority of the Israeli public, including great numbers who vote Labor, would go for it if we could get away with it. ( I also live in Israel).

The problem is in the field of strategy. American support for Israel would disappear. For those of you that say Israel should just do it anyway, your not living in the real world. It's not the $ 3 billion in American aid we get every year. If the America doesn't sell us weapons systems we can't defend ourselves. A country the size of Israel simply cannot produce all the advanced weapons systems we need. If countries the size of Britain and France can't do it by themselves than we sure as hell can't. It costs billions of dollars just to develop a jet engine for an advanced fighter. When you can spread that out over thousands of fighters produced in the U.S. and bought by U.S. and foreign armed services it's economically feasible. In a country the size of Israel it's impossible. Even our tank , the Merkava has foreign components in it.

What happens when Europe imposes economic sanctions on us and won't allow the purchase of Israeli goods or the sale of goods to Israel. European countries are Israel's largest trading partners. What happens when we can't purchase raw materials anywhere? What happens when the U.N. Security Council passes a resolution against us and passes sanctions against us the way they did against South Africa.

Strategically speaking, transferring the Palestinians at this point in time would be suicidal for Israel.

You think I'm wrong ?(and I only wish I was)

Fine.

Some of you probably remember that a UN Watch blog started as a result of a LGF thread.

So here's a suggestion.

Why don't the LGF'rs who support transfer get together contact their Senators and Congressman to push both Houses to pass a resolution stating that they support any actions by Israel to ensure the security of it's citizens, up to and including transfer. The resolution should also state that the U.S. will veto any Security Council resolutions condemning Israel,do everything in it's power to block EU sanctions, stating that any sanctions against Israel would be viewed the same as sanctions against the US and entailing retaliatory sanctions by the U.S. , guarantee to take such actions as necessary to neutralize damage to the Israeli economy including the sale of goods to Israel and purchase of goods from Israel.

Then get the President to sign a treaty with Israel saying the same thing.

See what I mean, sounds impossible doesn't it? For those of you who think it's possible, cool, do it. Talk is cheap. Getting out and actually doing something takes effort. But telling us just to ignore the consequences of actions is the same as stating we should just march upright into a minefield raked by machinegun crossfire and not worry about it.

Accusing Sharon of being weak-willed or cowardly is ludicrous. We have a hellishly difficult strategic situation, and Sharon's tactics basically has been to take two steps forward and one step back, for a net gain of one step each time. I don't like it, it's slow and painful but I don't see any alternative at this time.

For those of you who think they can change the strategic situation by getting Congress and the President to take the actions outlined above, go to it.

#197:

I did not see the interview with the HAMAS spokesman you mention. However, I put on the TV this morning in the middle of an interview on Fox News with the Palestinian Labor Minister (I believe), and, unfortunately, this interviewer did "go easy" on him. He did not challenge anything that the minister said - I thought I was watching CNN by mistake. He was allowed to make an equivalence between the extremist HAMAS and the "extremist" Sharon (and the entire Israeli government, too). Of course, the "cycle of violence" was mentioned. It was disgusting, and it also surprised me, as many of the people on Fox (e.g.: O'Reilly, Hannity, E.D. Hill) would have never let his vile statements go unchallenged.

crush them.

Motti,

Excellent points, all. Without the USA's at least tacit support, it won't happen.

I hope there does not come a time (perhaps after the first WMD terrorist attack in Israel (heaven forbid)), when these political and economic constraints on the transfer of this twisted society out Israel seem minor.

In the meantime, I would support an effort to lobby for at least some of the political backing in the US for proper Israeli self defense.

Dick Armey has already stated he thinks transfer may be reasonable under the circumstances, and he has just retired.

Maybe he's now available to head the lobbying effort?

I'm not kidding.

#206

Congressional resolutions of support are dime a dozen. A U.S.-Israeli defense treaty would be worthless to Israel because the U.S. could reneg on its obligations under the treaty at will. As to Sharon, he is more preoccupied with fighting Netanyahu than Arafat.

CA - #178

I am from the USA, I have lived in Israel in the past and now live back in the USA. My wife is Israeli and I have 17 nieces and nephews in Israel all under the age of 23.

My problem with a lot of Israelis, including some of my in-laws is that they are not Zionists. i.e. they don't get it that the whole point of Israel being established was to make a homeland where Jews could be safe from being killed just because they were Jews.

Israel is now the least safe place for Jews to live in the world (other than the Arab world). It's high time they stopped trying to be 'realistic' and did something about it. They are all too concerned about what the rest of the world thinks. It's time to do what's good for the Jews, not what the rest of the world wants.

Motti,

If the America doesn't sell us weapons systems we can't defend ourselves. A country the size of Israel simply cannot produce all the advanced weapons systems we need.

That's not true. Israel was doing quite well in the 1940's, 50's, and especially the 60's when its largest arms supplier was...France. The Egyptians, Syrians, and Iraqis were well stocked by their Soviet sponsors. The Jordanians posessed a small but highly professional army that was supplied and trained by the British. As late as the Yom Kippur war in 1973 the Israeli's were confronting top of the line Soviet APC's with old WWII American half-tracks. It didn't make a damn bit of difference. The Israeli's had what the Arabs didn't. Capable commanders and a desire to achieve victory. Israel's military track record lately has been somewhat spotty. Lebanon, the "Intifadeh", and thal "Al-Asqa Intifadeh". This doesn't not reflect on the capabilities of the Israeli armed forces, which have markedly improved. The ability or perhaps the desire to achieve victory has given way to other concerns. The "peace process", preserving relationships with "moderate" Arab regimes (which are as scathingly anti-semitic as "hostile" Arab regimes), a desire to placate "world opinon". It is an asymmetrical form of warfare in which the Israeli's have lost the initiative.

A 13-year old wrapped in an Israeli flag

How about this? For every Israeli killed by one of these terrorist scum, round up 10 Palestinians and shoot them. No trial, no warning, just shoot the shits. Seems that's the only language they understand.

#8: funny you should mention Barghuti: he refuses legal representation, because Israel "does not have the legal authority to put him on trial in the first place". I say skip the trial, then.

When will the dogs of war be released if not NOW? How many more inhuman atrocities must Israel endure before accepting the reality of the need for hammering the anvil? The choice for the destruction of the palastinian camps, gaza, and ramallah is clear. Sad, tragic, but necessary for one's survival.
Let the sounds of the tanks be the only warning, and lthe screams of the jets dropping bombs not cease until there is nothing left. Evil cannot be shown mercy, only destroyed.

Motti #206,

Great points. Maybe, as Maine's Michael says, we should start to organize this sort of movement.

From the Haaretz website update page.

00:04 Arab student attacked and lightly wounded near site of suicide bombing in Jerusalem; attackers fled scene
23:53 Molotov cocktail hurled at Jerusalem bakery managed by a Palestinian; no injuries reported or damage caused

Everyone prays that this continues with mass attacks against arabs of jihadic persuasion.
I think that when the muslims start feeling some pain they will begin to retreat.

CA - With all due respect, I find it difficult to understand your point of view.

What are your alternative suggestions for limiting the bus related homicide bombings?

That's not true. Israel was doing quite well in the 1940's, 50's, and especially the 60's when its largest arms supplier was...France.

Uhm.. have you ever spoken to an Israeli pilot? Mirages were terrible, unreliable, and nowhere near as good as American-made planes. Also, do you really maintain the fantasy that it is at all possible to get weapons from any of those countries you mentioned - hell the British parlaiment wants to stop shipments to the US that might be bound for Israel...

As much as I hate to admit it.. Israel is in a very complex catch-22 situation.

#214 - Only if it was "unofficial" like the stuff Israel got away with in the past...using Christian militia to execute Pal terrorists in Southern Leb. The 2 refugee camps went too far, and tarred the approach of using proxies to do what was needed, but that Israel held itself "too noble" to bloody their hands with.

I am sure at this point there would be no shortage of volunteers to bring terror back to the Pals...if they knew that while Israel would "deplore it"..that like Arafat, they would conveniently look the other way...especially if they believed that the whole purpose of say blowing up a Pal Hamas funeral procession was not to kill Pals just to kill Pals...but to GET THEM TO STOP THE MASSACRES - where every Israeli now lives in fear, but Pals terrorists go to bed knowing their wives, children, neighbors are perfectly safe.

I believe you have reached the point, actually well past the point where reprisal killings are needed to prevent Israelis from being butchered with impunity.

But, the idea that you can cleanse the West Bank is a non-starter. The world, even Israel officially in the past...has signed on to the validity of a Pal State. Those that say even the US would be forced to abandon Israel if such a mass slaughter and cleansing started are correct. The US will NEVER voluntarily become a global pariah nation just to protect Settlers from a foreign country. We have profound global interests, vital interests that our citizens depend on for their safety and standard of living that have NOTHING to do with Israel, but everything to do with US, and all that would be jeopardized if we failed to part ways with Israel if ethnic cleansing starts.

If it was just the USA and Israel with all the power, influence, and all the effective international economies, money, resources, geopolitical positioning, people under our control...then I think most Americans could give a shit about the odious Pals...but we live in a different world...one that has rejected past Jewish claims that the Pals are trespassers on the West Bank.

The best Israel can hope for is that lines are drawn, Israelis and Pals separate, a Big Ass Wall goes up, a true Pal State comes into being - And, the Settlements in the Pal State "to be" are not destroyed, but transferred intact in return for concessions around abandonment of "Right of Return" claims and the Jewish investment in the Settlements (outside the US aid used) is partially compensated for by Euro/Saudi/USA largesse. All that would be contingent on the Arabs - all UN nations in fact...recognizing that Israel does have legitimate national security concerns on the defensibility of Israel w/o the West Bank buffer. So any treaty would require the West Bank to remain demilitarized except for small arms...with a right under the treaty for Israel to attack if the Pals militarize or fail to prevent terror attacks across the Wall. Add in the little religious or cultural bennies...the Jews get to visit the Tomb of the Patriarch or other West Bank religious sites, so do Christians...Arabs get to visit the old family graveyard in Jaffa, etc., etc.

But again, that's as good as it's gonna get for Israel. Cleansing won't be tolerated by the world community. Terrorism may be deplored by the same community, but most will support the legitimacy of the Palestinian armed struggle against what they believe in their guts is the "Occupier and Oppressor" nation - Israel.

Yes, lots of land the Pals could move to in the Ummah - if they were forced to move or die. But so too with the Jews...looking back...despite the obviously valid "ancestral claims", and historical presence on the land -I think if it could be redone...the Balfour Declaration to reestablish a Zionist State smack dab in the heart of the Ummah would have been different. A Jewish State in Terra del Fuego, Alaska, Newfoundland, the Kamchatka Penninsula, Australia, Madagascar...anywhere but where it is.

Ran,

You are forgetting one important point. As of 1918 the whole of the Middle East (aproximately) was not Arab land. It was British land by right of conquest and accepted by the League of Nations.

They had every right to assign the rulership of the land to whatever government suited them.

Arab rulers got the majority. Jews were promised a small sliver.

If the Arabs don't like it let them take it if they can. So far they have not been doing too well. Every time they try to take more they wind up with less. Fortunes of war.

Most unfortunate

Dirk Diggler #212

Sorry to take so long to reply, I'd just finished the post when some glitch wiped it all out.

God bless you, your heart is in the right place but much as I wish we could manage with out of date weapons it just ain't workable.

Let me refer you to Eliot A. Cohen's book Supreme Command

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Chapter 4 deals with Ben-Gurion and the War of Independance. On page 151 he writes:

The underground army had developed an impressive clandestine manufacturing capability, but the acquisition of arms from overseas would prove decisive for Israel's survival, as the table indicates.

Cohen then goes on to describe the increase of Land Forces equipment between April 1947 and March 1949. During that period the number of rifles increased from 10,073 to 62,200, submachine guns 1,900 to 31,049, machine guns 444 to 6,494, 2" mortars 672 to 1,706, 3" mortars 96 to 678, artillery pieces none to 492.

Cohen goes on to write:

The breakthrough developments were the nascent state's arms deals with Czechoslovakia in the first half of 1948, which provided the Jewish state with the fruits of the Czech arms industry as modified by the Germans for their own use during World War II. Ironically, many survivors of Hitler's extermination camps went into battle against the Arabs carrying German-designed Mauser rifles and light machine guns, under air cover from modified Bf-109 fighters--all fruits of the arms deals.

I can't tell you what the situation for land equipment was in the IDF in the 60's and 70's, I was drafted into the IDF right after the Yom Kippur War into an anti-aircraft unit in the Air Force and I can tell you that the American anti-aircraft missles we had were as good or better than any Russian equipment.( I should also mention that comparing Russian APC's to American APC's doesn't say a hell of a lot. Those World War II American half-tracks had better armor than the modern American APC's we got during the '70's.) As far as I know there was no great qualitative difference between their tanks and ours, and certainly our artillery was much more mobile than theirs.

During the '50's we got modern equipment from the French in order to enable us to participate with them and the British in the Suez War of 1956. We also got the nuclear reactor in Dimona from them.

In anycase, even from your post it's clear that our equipment wasn't locally made, but purchased from foreign countries.

When I went into the army we learned that after a certain point quantity neutralizes quality. The Arabs numerically will always have the advantage. Our advantage is in quality, and that in two areas, the quality of our soldiers, and the quality of our equipment.

We can afford a 3:1 ratio of fighter aircraft in the Arabs favor because of the quality of our pilots. But if the quality of their aircraft surpass our by too sizeable a margin than this neutralizes our advantage.

The best example of this that I can think of was the fighter used by the U.S. Army Air Corps near the end of WWII-- the Mustang. It was so much better than anything the Luftwaffe could put in the air that flying against it was tantamount to suicide. So many German pilots were lost that they had to put up more and more pilots with minimal experience and so the quality of their pilots went down.

Today if someone were to fly a Phantom against an F-15 or F-16 it would be blown out of the sky before it could get in range to effectively use it's own weapons.

How exactly would we keep flying our F-15's or F-16's if the Americans refused to sell us spare parts?

Superior equipment in the hands of superior soldiers means more effective decisive firepower. quicker and less costly wars and more deterrent capability something which is expecially important in Israel with it's small population and army made up mostly of reservists.

I would also point out that you haven't dealt with the other points I made, i.e. how do we manage when no one buys our goods, or sells us goods including raw materials because of worldwide sanctions or when our aircraft aren't allowed overflight rights or allowed to land in foreign airports?

The Prime Minister, like a commander in battle, has to worry about the logistics---if there's no fuel, or ammunition or spare parts then you can't fight no matter how courageous you are.

Open Letter to President Bush

Dear President Bush:

I read that you condemned today's slaughter, by Moslem Arabs, of 11 school children and other civilians on a Jerusalem bus. As am American who is concerned about Islamic terror, I thank you for that.

I also read that the explosion has firmed your resolve to establish a state for the Arabs who committed this atrocity. Logically, then, a bank robber should receive money and not prison time for his actions. Likewise, a jealous boyfriend who murders his rival should not be executed. He should marry the sweetheart who rejected him. Presumably the Moslems who slaughtered 50 Christians today in Nigeria should also get something for their troubles.

With all due respect, Mr. President. Those 11 school children were slaughtered because the "Religion of Peace" is the prime source of religious hatred and intolerance in the world today. America is also a target.

Well meaning Christians who voted for you in 2000 will remember this in 2004.

Sincerely,

Seth Watkins

Sigh: Once again Ranbutan's fantasies that Jews are Nazis rear their head.

using Christian militia to execute Pal terrorists in Southern Leb. The 2 refugee camps went too far, and tarred the approach of using proxies to do what was needed, but that Israel held itself "too noble" to bloody their hands with.

I generally do not respond to Rantbutan's anti-Israeli rants, but lest people believe that the Jews carried out that Arab-on-Arab massacre by proxy, the record needs to be set straight.

The indepensible "Myths and Facts" by Mitchell Bard gives some more background regarding the massacre.

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16-17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.

The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Mind you, I am sure that the Israelis were not crushed at the prospect of several hundred PLO terrorists being murdered, but the record of the Kahan Commission and the record of the IDF shows that they do not indiscriminately kill women and children, like these Phalange murderers did.

I have a solution to everything.

France can become a Palestinian state with Kafi Annan as its leader.

Problem solved

M. Simon and J.Lchty--Bravo. Thank you.

Seth--beautifully written. Are you going to forward it to him, with ccs to your senators and congressmen?

A Jewish State in Terra del Fuego, Alaska, Newfoundland, the Kamchatka Penninsula, Australia, Madagascar...anywhere but where it is.

Fuck, how about Mars? Outer rings of Saturn? Centaur Alpha? You're not so dumb as to not realize what your statement, echoing the (islamo)nazi rhetoric word-for-word, implies. Juden, don't be where you are - in short, don't be. Fuck off.

Heads up! The Jerusalem bus bombing does not even appear on CNN's European version!

[Link: europe.cnn.com...]

did someone say

A Jewish State in Terra del Fuego, Alaska, Newfoundland, the Kamchatka Penninsula, Australia, Madagascar...anywhere but where it is.

?

yeah, over my dead f-king body

The faces of the 11 victims of the Jerusalem Bus

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

The names of the eleven victims of Thursday morning's suicide bombing in Jerusalem have been released. They have been identified as:

Dikla Zino, 22
Dikla Zino, 22, and her 16-year-old sister, Sivan, used to take the 20 bus to the center of the city every morning together. But on Thursday Dikla, who lived in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood, got up late and Sivan left on an earlier bus. Dikla boarded the bus along with the suicide bomber and was seriously injured in the head and chest when he detonated the bomb. She died on the operating table at Hadassah Hospital, Ein Karem. Dikla, who was released from the army four months ago, worked as a book-keeper. She is survived by her parents and three siblings. She will be laid to rest Friday morning at the Givat Shaul cemetery.

Sima Novak, 56
Sima Novak immigrated to Israel from the Ukraine eight years ago with her daughter Svetlana. She took Bus 20 as usual yesterday morning to her job as a house keeper in a home in the Pisgat Ze'ev neighborhood. In the Ukraine she was
a teacher of chemistry and biology. Novak lived with the daughter and husband, and her toddler grand-daughter. Her daughter said that several months ago she had missed death by crossing a sidewalk seconds before a suicide bomber detonated a bomb at the King George and Jaffa Street intersection. Novak will be
layed to rest Friday.

Hodaya Asraf, 13
Hodaya Asraf, 13, was enrolled at an arts school in the Katamon neighborhood. She boarded the bus several meters from her home and was killed in the blast. Rachel Lifschitz, principal at the school Asraf attended, said that Asraf's mother would call the school daily to make sure that her daughter arrived safely. Lifschitz described Asaraf as kind and generous, and noted that she had taken part in school plays. Asraf was buried Thursday night.

Marina Bazarski, 46
Marina Bazarsky lived in a modest apartment in Ir Ganim with her husband Alexander and their two teenage boys. Thursday, as she did every day, she took the 7 A.M. bus from Ir Ganim to Ma'ale Adumim, where she worked as a bookkeeper in a factory. "She was a charming lady," said her shocked husband of 23 years. While the family asked for its privacy, neighbors said the family arrived in Israel 10 years ago, and that "Marina was the dominant personality," in a "model family."

Yafit Ravivo, 13
Ravivo was laid to rest in the Givat Shaul cemetery Thursday at 9 P.M.

Hadassah Helena Ben-David, 32
Helena Hadassah Ben-David immigrated to
Israel with her parents from Latvia, 12 years ago. She taught mathematics at Denmark comprehensive school in Jerusalem and had recently been living with her
parents after getting divorced. Ben-David had three girls aged four, three and two. Her parents heard the explosion from their home and immediately tried to reach her on her cell phone. There was no reply. On Thursday the family agonized over how to break the news to the three tots. Ben-David was buried Thursday night at the Givat Shaul cemetery in Jerusalem.

Varga Mirsa, 25
Verga Mirsa, aged 25, was a tourist from Romania. He
arrived in Israel five weeks ago and was staying in the Ir Ganim quarter of Jerusalem. His name was released for publication after his family was informed.

Ella Sharshevsky, 44
Ella Sharshevsky and her son Michael, also killed in the attack will be laid to rest Friday at 10:35 A.M. at the Givat Shaul cemetery.

Michael Sharshevsky, 16

Kira Pearlman, 67
Kira and her grandson Ilan, also killed in the blast, will be laid to rest Thursday night in Givat Shaul.

Ilan Pearlman, 8

Ranbutan,

Guess what? We're moving Israel here, to the US. The Jews are going to get a whole state to themselves. W're just deciding which one we want, and then we're moving right on in.

And as we prosper and grow, we'll take over the next state, and so on.

It's very exciting.

Zulubabe,

I love you.

Maine's Michael,

Not nearly as much as I love you.

Sick murderous bigoted bastards!

I've yet to read the comments in this thread. I'm about to and think it will probably break my heart. Sick murderous bigoted bastards.

Anyhow, I'm jumping to the end with what may be a little silver lining.
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
The headline is "Militants admit Israel bus blast." Now I don't know much English-English beyond torch=flashlight, but to this Yank "admit" means they did something wrong. As far as the BBC and their standard operating procedures go, this is a step towards honest journalism.

They even provide some weepy details, you know, the stuff they would normally only reserve for a "Palestinian" that died trying to kill Jews.

Bulldoze the proud papa's house immediately. Preferably with him in it.

Zulubabe:

:)

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

The first word in the title is "Militants." They are "Terrorists."
The second word is "Admit". That should be "Take Credit."
It is the usual BBC dreck.

#222 M Simon writes:You are forgetting one important point. As of 1918 the whole of the Middle East (aproximately) was not Arab land. It was British land by right of conquest...

By the same logic, Japan became "AmericaLand" by right of conquest in 1945, and we could have subjugated their slanty eyed, buck-toothed subhuman asses so 200,000 settlers from the US could live there - or just expelled them all - to Korea...but guess what 140 million displaced fanatically aggrieved Japanese would have done to us over the last 50 years? I won't even get into Germany's "right of conquest" to lands since the natives in WWII did fight back.

#225 - Lichty has reverted to his smarmy, condescending self "usually I don't deign to lower myself to the level of those that do not share my opinions" By doing his own, hopefully inadvertent, version of Holocaust denial shtick...Sorry, J...Israeli and US intercepts clearly show the Israeli Commander, Sharon...knowing the Phalange was headed into the Pal camps...he gave the green light and was convicted for doing so not only by Euroweenies, but by an Israeli court - for using proxies. The stench of death clings heavily. 20 years haven't dispelled the stink Sharon acquired.

#228 - If Britain had the Balfour Declaration to do all over again where the Arabs had a place at the table and had their petrobucks - besides the Brit imperialists and hefty Zionist "contributors"...if they saw what 1948-2002 would usher in...there is no way the Brits would have given Palestine as they did. Saying any other potential safe "homeland" for the Jews...with 20-20 hindsight - is Nazi-like, blah blah yadayadayada, Q, misses the fact that both the US and the Soviet Union would have voted for a safe Jewish homeland in a remote patch of land, not smack dab in the middle of the Ummah if they knew what was coming. And, with 2 billion or so US dollars every year, over 50 years, the Arabs would have gladly sold every thing Jewish that wasn't nailed down - Wailing Walls, whole damn Tells - to erect in some bumfrick land where the Jews were off the beaten path, and safe.

#231 - Zulubaby...Guess what? We're moving Israel here, to the US. The Jews are going to get a whole state to themselves. W're just deciding which one we want, and then we're moving right on in.

Well, it seems half of Israel wants to move to the US as it is, or at least have an exit strategy if Israel falls. Come to America? Sure! Just don't get into yet another Wall Street mess. But as for states...Florida and NY seem to be the favorites...buy a house, a condo? Cool. Just don't come on any American's property with a rent-a-tank and 12 land speculators saying that their whole back yard is really given to Jews by a holy book, and 118 housing condos will arise...because the average American would make the Pals look wimpy. It would be Masada-time, zulubaby...

My last 6 paragraphs in Post #221 unfortunately give Eratz Israel true believers a reality check. Sorry...but thats as good as Israel is going to get. Dreams of ethnic cleansing of all Pals will remain just that, the dreams of Israeli condos stretching from Damascus to Thebes will remain dreams. The best Israel can hope for is 1967 borders + Golan + sections of East Jeruselem...and a Big Ass Wall. Otherwise, Israel goes it alone. All alone.

Ranbutan,

Nice job on the italics tags.

As to the rest of your post...a big snoozer. Not only are you becoming a bore, you're turning into a super-sized Troll.

#238:

Thus spake Lychee Nut, er . . .Ranbutan:

Israeli and US intercepts clearly show the Israeli Commander, Sharon...knowing the Phalange was headed into the Pal camps...he gave the green light

You mean to say that Sharon told the Phalangists: "yes, you can go in now and massacre men women and children"

or did he say: "by all means go in and root out the militants" .

There's quite a difference between the two, as intent means everything in wartime.

The way I read it it, Sharon was guilty of being unable to anticipate what monsters the 'christian' lebanese were, how thin their veneer of being a trained military force was, and what they were capable of doing.

If you have any sources that prove Sharon specificaly did the dead you are alleging, share with us.

Otherwise, its just more of the same manipulative crap you masquerade as "Cold American Objective Self Interest".

Incredibly revealing statistical analysis of Israeli and Palestinian dead in this stupidfada:

[Link: www.ict.org.il...]

Many of the Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians. In addition, the overwhelming majority of Palestinians killed were young men, while most of the Israelis killed were civilians - the elderly, women and children. This shows that the Palestinians have targeted non-combatants, while the Israelis have not.

This also shows that the "twice as many Palestinians have been killed as Israelis" mantra repeated ad nauseum as an obligatory last sentence of every report on the Middle East is not as simple or straightforward as the Islamobots and their apologists would have us believe.

Amy,

Those stats are pretty obvious by simple offhanded observation.

Remember, people who ignore reality really just don't care.

Do not bother trying to influence people who are not honest with the truth.

Israel has had over 15,000 terrorist attacks in the past two years, a new world record.

Nothing compares to that in history, ever.

Anyone who blames the victims are not human and don't give them any credence by bothering to deal with their obvious hate of the most ancient, smallest, most persecuted, religious minorty; the Jewish peoples.

GI Joe,

I understand your sentiments, but I feel I should continue to put stuff out there, especially stuff like that article, which is purely fact-based and, therefore, unassailable. The Islamofascists' apologists can't wriggle out of these statistics.

In addition, we need to provide one another with talking points and ammunition to shoot down the grossly distorted spin published ad nauseum by the enemy. Someone may find good use for these stats.

BTW, it seems that my prayer in #235 has been answered - papa's house is history, although I suppose that Uncle Saddam will build him another one (unless he's occupied with more pressing matters...).

Here's the link for the house destruction:

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

Note the last sentence of the article - QED.

Amy,

"The Islamofascists' apologists can't wriggle out of these statistics."

Always keep up your vigilance for truth but understand that convincing those in the middle than those who support terrorists might be more useful.

The pro baby-killers don't care about 'wriggle'ling out of anything. Truth means nothing to those who support death.

You could show those who support murder all the truth and good intentions in the world but you won't be able to deter their cause of murdering those like you and unlike them.

Remember, the support of murder requires ill-logic therefore your good-logic would mean nothing to them.

GI Joe,

Note that I said that "the Islamofascists' apologists" can't wriggle out from under these statistics. I'm well aware that the terrorists themselves are far beyond the reach of logic, rational argument or even appeals to simple standards of humanity and morality. They are a completely lost cause and must simply be destroyed like rabid dogs.

However, I consider the Western apologists for these soulless murderers to be capable and guilty of doing great mischief - these are the people who are attacking Israel and expressing support for the terrorists in the print media, in our classrooms, on the radio, everywhere. It is these people who must be called to account and challenged on their misleading and facile "three times as many Palestinians have been killed as Israelis; therefore, the Israelis must be using excessive force, indiscriminately committing 'massacres' of civilians, blahdy blah blah blah..."

Every damn news article ends with the obligatory "numbers," which leads the average, ignorant reader to conclude that the Palestinians have been more sinned against than sinning.

Amy,

Interesting that a UN worker was killed.

I'm glad the IDF didn't put soldier's lives at risk so as to ensure the UN worker's complete safety.

Maybe now they might get the fuck out of the way?

Too bad it wasn't Kofi Annan who took the bullet for the cause.

(Of course you know Kofi means 'monkey' in hebrew?)

Maine's Michael #247,

Re: U.N. worker

Can't tell who shot him. I don't have anything against U.N. workers per se, and I don't wish them dead. Most of them are just trying to do their jobs and don't have bupkis to say about policy. Many of them do dirty, dangerous jobs.

I don't wish Koffi harm, either. He's the figurehead of what's becoming an almost entirely irrelevant forum for the world's losers to whine, lie and gang up on one another. Anyway, he's no worse than Waldheim or Boutros Gali (sp?) were.

*shrug*

The UN is not a neutral force in the world, at least as far as Israel is concerned. It has allowed itself to be hijacked by the venal family businesses and absolute fiefdomns that masquerade as 'countries', partuiculalry in the Arab world.

Annan is their errand boy. He has done nothing but infuriate me everytime his mouth opens. I wish him off the world stage, as I do the UN in general.

The UN workers in Israel have a choice. They chose to be there there, helping the pals build infrastuctures and eduational systems. They are a malignant presense shoved down Israel's gullet. And we won't even talk about the UN in lebanon, collaborating by ignoring Hizbollah, videotaping Hizbollah abductions, etc.

If the hair on a soldier's head was harmed becasuse some special precaution was taken to protect the UN workers or other NGO person in the area, I would be really upset.

Ranbutan,
Are you foaming at the mouth yet?
The British and the French were the superpowers in 1918 and could in fact do whatever the hell they wanted in the middle east.
How that leads to your ranting on about Japan and Europe after the war is somehow a leap of logic that defies logic. The US did have a benevolent governece over japan. They built bases, homes and generally tried to point the Japanese away from militarism. Not a bad idea at all. Your analogy is just plain stupid. We're talking about sovereign countries here. You compare that to an area that was part of the Ottoman Empire, then administered by the British then occupied by Jordan and then taken over by the Israelis. It never was a country (Palestine). There were never any borders. Remember the 1948 agreements only agreed to armistce lines. That you compare countries conquered by Germany to the territories of the west bank and Gaza, captured in a defensive war and administered by Israel until some type of permanent peace be arranged is so fallacious as to be laughable. Well the Israelis are still waiting for the peace of the brave.
The settlement issue is a red herring. It wasn't even in the Oslo accords. The truth is that Islam forbids non-Muslims from owning property in Muslim areas-wheter it be Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or the west bank. And clearly the Palis define the west bank and all of present day Israel as Muslim territory.
In Canada, Americans own a good deal of land, property, homes etc. but i don't see any Canadian suicide bombers blowing up buses in New York. Even the most left wing Canadian wacko could never justify such an outrage. The US and Canada have a shared history, an interwoven economy and free trade. They are not constrained by a monolithic, fanatical religion that considers non-Muslims as shit. Unfortunately reason and "the religion of peace" don't yet coexist. If they did the Pals would have had their own country a long time ago. They probably would have had some type of free trade and economic relationship with Israel.
Its not as if they haven't been offered their own state before. But now, that isn't going to happen any time soon. Thank you Yasser and all you other wonderful jihadists for fucking over the Palestinians again!

By the way, despite the good intentions vis a vis the Jews shown by Arthur Balfour,, the Brits reneged on that declaration almost immediately. It had no practical significance to ameliorate the plight of the jews in Europe or improve their chances of immigrating to Palestine. The Brits effectively curtailed any meanigful immigration while allowing movement of Arabs from surrounding countries to freely move into the Mandate to take advantage of the better economic situation there. Even if there had been no Balfour declaration, it wouldn't have changed much. The Jews were offered Uganda which they rejected. They built up their population in Palestine despite not because of the British.

And by the way, do you have a patent on your retrospectoscope? I'll certainly buy one from you.
If this had happened and if that... yeah, right. The Jews built Israel (1920-1950) with little help from the Brits or America despite constant efforts to sabotage it by the Foreign Office in London and the State dept. in Washington." And the country survived its war of indepence no thanks to Britain or the US.

"blah blah yadayadayada" Is this your idea of reasoned debate?
The Soviets and the US did support the creation of Israel at the UN and the Soviets were the first to grant it diplomatic status. They didn't have your mindset. Trueman did what he did because he thought it was the right thing to do just like he fired that megalo maniac MacArthur...but I digress.

You're clearly obsessed with the money Israel gets. Well despite your feelings, there are elected members of your government (not the State Dept.) that feel its the right thing to do. By the way the US does get a lot back. It has been estimated that between 1967-95, the value in shared R&D, intelligence info and access to Soviet military equipment was about 80 billion. But your attitude I see is "show me the money!"
As far as your last bit is concerned, about Israelis moving to the US; you really reveal yourself . You display what is the absolute worst aspect of xenophobic Americana. It is arrogant, insulting, not so crypto Jew-hatred and bizarrely idiotic.

The Israelis are not going to expel or commit genocide upon the Arabs in the west bank and gaza, even though a minority might wish it. I cannot however claim the same for the Palis with respect to Israel who dream of taking over condos from Tel aviv to Amman (yes Amman,) Do you think they'll really stop at Israel?

Most Israelis despite your lunatic accusations to the contrary are realists; but why should they live next door to a terrorist state? They would be happy to leave the palis in their own wretched self-inflicted mess and get on with their own lives. Unfortunately, the Arabs are unwilling and have always been unwilling to go along with this concept. They want the Jews out-full stop.

By the way, it "Eretz" as in Hebrew for land; not Eratz as in "ersatz" as in a substitute of inferior quality.
Just a recurring spelling mistake no doubt...or perhaps NOT.

Maine's Michael #249,

I have no love for the U.N. or for Koffi. The matter of the Lebanon videotape was utterly outrageous. I just think that the U.N. is becoming more and more irrelevant. It's occupying some of the most valuable real estate in the world that could be used to much better purpose and forces NYC to play host to undesirables who can commit all sorts of violations and crimes with impunity.

However, I still don't wish U.N. workers or Koffi dead. As long as the U.S. wields veto power and holds the pursestrings, Israel doesn't have much to worry about.

#211 BigBad:

I am from the USA, I have lived in Israel in the past and now live back in the USA. My wife is Israeli and I have 17 nieces and nephews in Israel all under the age of 23.

I lived for 17 years in Belgium and more than a decade ago I gave up the comfortable things Europe had to offer and made Aliya to Israel because that’s what Zionists do. With all due respect to you and your family - you are NOT living in Israel, if you think that we here are doing all the wrong things, why don't you come over here, and use your voting rights.

My problem with a lot of Israelis, including some of my in-laws is that they are not Zionists. i.e. they don't get it that the whole point of Israel being established was to make a homeland where Jews could be safe from being killed just because they were Jews.

We share the same problem, however they are Jews who live in Israel a fact that makes them Zionists by default!! And it is going to be very hard for you to convince them the opposite as long as you live abroad. Sorry, but it's true.

Israel is now the least safe place for Jews to live in the world (other than the Arab world). It's high time they stopped trying to be 'realistic' and did something about it. They are all too concerned about what the rest of the world thinks. It's time to do what's good for the Jews, not what the rest of the world wants.

So I guess that you are the realistic one since you decided not to live in the least safe place for Jews...

#219 Jim Bob:

What are your alternative suggestions for limiting the bus related homicide bombings?

Stopping the terrorists before they ever reach our cities.. That means harsher measures in the territories. More road blocks.. More curfews. A big wall etc.
Besides as the Weekend News reported, as a last line of defense, security is available on the main bus lines, however this is insufficient. They are trying to find a solution to this problem, though I think it will be hard to achieve.